Reason for current hostilities

[Silverspar]

Been doing some research, and think I might have found the current reason for the angle of the hostilities between the Klingons and the Federation, as well as a reason why the Klingons have new allies that are evidently serving in the Imperial Klingon Defense Force. Grant it, this is only one view, but it's based on some decent facts, as well as some reading into some RPG based stuff towards LUGs ST game.

Now, as we should mostly know, of all the powers that were fighting during the Dominion War on the side of the Alliance, the hardest hit of all the factions was the Klingons. In fact, they lost the most, most of their great houses had lost their forces during the war and were depleated in that effort. This would have a large political consequence since most of the Klingon fleet is supplied by those great houses.

This means that the great houses voices aren't as loud as they could be in the coming years as they don't have the forces to back it up, which paves the way for those houses that have less than warm ideals towards the Federation. In fact, one of the views presented is that those houses feel that it's the Federations fault that the Klingons suffered so much during the Dominion War.

This in turn probably gives those smaller, boisterous houses the initiative to gain and possibly recruit other factors outside the Klingon Empire, which gives them more political strength in the heirarchy of the Empire. As a result, the opinion ends up drastically shifting to these points of view, and these smaller houses probably instill a tad bit of fear into the Klingons with their words of weakness and "betrayal" at the hands of the Federation, and probably, in the midst of it, the Orions probably make some back deal promises.

The Nausicaans are probably recruited as allies for their harsh and warrior like tendencies, and the final straw that causes a break down of the Khitomer Accords is when the Klingon Empire annex's the Gorn Hegemony, since according to the GI article the Gorn were absorbed into the Empire.

But that's all speculation on my part looking at some of the facts as they are presented, and of course almost all the future scenarios for Star Trek in the series have put the Klingons pretty much having backed out of the Accords.

[DFawkes]

I like this very much, it makes sense. To me, anyway.

[Nytok]

This makes alot of sense. And it would scare races like the Ferengi to join the Federation.

[Father_Origin]

well thought out..bravo

[maserati813]

i gotta admit it sounds point on

[Volomon]

Been doing some research, and think I might have found the current reason for the angle of the hostilities between the Klingons and the Federation, as well as a reason why the Klingons have new allies that are evidently serving in the Imperial Klingon Defense Force. Grant it, this is only one view, but it's based on some decent facts, as well as some reading into some RPG based stuff towards LUGs ST game.

Now, as we should mostly know, of all the powers that were fighting during the Dominion War on the side of the Alliance, the hardest hit of all the factions was the Klingons. In fact, they lost the most, most of their great houses had lost their forces during the war and were depleated in that effort. This would have a large political consequence since most of the Klingon fleet is supplied by those great houses.

This means that the great houses voices aren't as loud as they could be in the coming years as they don't have the forces to back it up, which paves the way for those houses that have less than warm ideals towards the Federation. In fact, one of the views presented is that those houses feel that it's the Federations fault that the Klingons suffered so much during the Dominion War.

This in turn probably gives those smaller, boisterous houses the initiative to gain and possibly recruit other factors outside the Klingon Empire, which gives them more political strength in the heirarchy of the Empire. As a result, the opinion ends up drastically shifting to these points of view, and these smaller houses probably instill a tad bit of fear into the Klingons with their words of weakness and "betrayal" at the hands of the Federation, and probably, in the midst of it, the Orions probably make some back deal promises.

The Nausicaans are probably recruited as allies for their harsh and warrior like tendencies, and the final straw that causes a break down of the Khitomer Accords is when the Klingon Empire annex's the Gorn Hegemony, since according to the GI article the Gorn were absorbed into the Empire.

But that's all speculation on my part looking at some of the facts as they are presented, and of course almost all the future scenarios for Star Trek in the series have put the Klingons pretty much having backed out of the Accords.

I donno this all seems to complex for me, the Klingons have always had issues with resources. Especially toward the end of the series/movies. I think they just ran out of gas and decided to take some gas for themselves. Now they don't feel like stopping. Federation has alot of oil and the Klingon Empire wants to keep their cars running.

Simple as that really. Of course then you have the complexities of house struggles.

[Captain_Intrepid]

This makes alot of sense. And it would scare races like the Ferengi to join the Federation.

Then again, with Grand Nagus Rom, there's a good chance the Ferengi would have joined the Federation, anyways. Maybe the shifting alliances may have encouraged those hold-outs to join in too, but until we know more, who knows?

[Captain_Intrepid]

I donno this all seems to complex for me, the Klingons have always had issues with resources. Especially toward the end of the series/movies. I think they just ran out of gas and decided to take some gas for themselves. Now they don't feel like stopping. Federation has alot of oil and the Klingon Empire wants to keep their cars running.

Simple as that really. Of course then you have the complexities of house struggles.

The Klingons would certainly demand the Federation 'share' the transwarp conduit technology. Why should the Federation continue to expand as such a rate that such technology would allow while the Glorious Klingon Empire be forced to stagnate and possibly be annexed willingly by weak-minded fools in the Klingon Council?

Just a thought :)

[phifur]

Great job :) sound good to me

[Typheron]

Another thing from various Trek media is the klingons typically get very boried with peacekeeping duties, so on top of the damage post-cardassia the feds have probably asked them to help doing just that.

Thus discontentment from the lack of battle and the federations attitude of peace and love.

[swedishviking]

Been doing some research, and think I might have found the current reason for the angle of the hostilities between the Klingons and the Federation, as well as a reason why the Klingons have new allies that are evidently serving in the Imperial Klingon Defense Force. Grant it, this is only one view, but it's based on some decent facts, as well as some reading into some RPG based stuff towards LUGs ST game.

Now, as we should mostly know, of all the powers that were fighting during the Dominion War on the side of the Alliance, the hardest hit of all the factions was the Klingons. In fact, they lost the most, most of their great houses had lost their forces during the war and were depleated in that effort. This would have a large political consequence since most of the Klingon fleet is supplied by those great houses.

This means that the great houses voices aren't as loud as they could be in the coming years as they don't have the forces to back it up, which paves the way for those houses that have less than warm ideals towards the Federation. In fact, one of the views presented is that those houses feel that it's the Federations fault that the Klingons suffered so much during the Dominion War.

This in turn probably gives those smaller, boisterous houses the initiative to gain and possibly recruit other factors outside the Klingon Empire, which gives them more political strength in the heirarchy of the Empire. As a result, the opinion ends up drastically shifting to these points of view, and these smaller houses probably instill a tad bit of fear into the Klingons with their words of weakness and "betrayal" at the hands of the Federation, and probably, in the midst of it, the Orions probably make some back deal promises.

The Nausicaans are probably recruited as allies for their harsh and warrior like tendencies, and the final straw that causes a break down of the Khitomer Accords is when the Klingon Empire annex's the Gorn Hegemony, since according to the GI article the Gorn were absorbed into the Empire.

But that's all speculation on my part looking at some of the facts as they are presented, and of course almost all the future scenarios for Star Trek in the series have put the Klingons pretty much having backed out of the Accords.

I donno this all seems to complex for me, the Klingons have always had issues with resources. Especially toward the end of the series/movies. I think they just ran out of gas and decided to take some gas for themselves. Now they don't feel like stopping. Federation has alot of oil and the Klingon Empire wants to keep their cars running.

Simple as that really. Of course then you have the complexities of house struggles.

Then again, with Grand Nagus Rom, there's a good chance the Ferengi would have joined the Federation, anyways. Maybe the shifting alliances may have encouraged those hold-outs to join in too, but until we know more, who knows?

The Klingons would certainly demand the Federation 'share' the transwarp conduit technology. Why should the Federation continue to expand as such a rate that such technology would allow while the Glorious Klingon Empire be forced to stagnate and possibly be annexed willingly by weak-minded fools in the Klingon Council?

Just a thought :)

Another thing from various Trek media is the klingons typically get very boried with peacekeeping duties, so on top of the damage post-cardassia the feds have probably asked them to help doing just that.

Thus discontentment from the lack of battle and the federations attitude of peace and love.

Since this is about the politics of the situation....and i do love my politics. I think you all make good points, but there are fundamental problems.

First, annexing territory by the klingons and inevitably scare non-federation races to join the federation would be a tactically stupid move. That would make the federation stronger, more resources, blah blah blah.

Second, war and occupation cost resources, which we all know, so forcing the gorn to serve on klingon ships would not only be costly, but also very untrustworthy. It is more likely that the gorn had internal problems and saw the klingon empire as the next best thing. That would provide resources and manpower for ships with minimal cost.

Third, Rom's takeover of the ferengi alliance would further strengthen the policies laid out by Zek and Rom's mother. I doubt anything would happen too quickly, old ways die slowly. Because of this, I would imagine that the Ferengi alliance probably would just have joined when we get into STO, so about a few years before if not shorter for our starting timeline.

Lastly, i have no doubt that klingons would want the transwarp technology. Since klingons were still allied with the federation at the end the dominion war, i would imagine that the federation would have shared that technology before the klingons left the alliance. Why would you give that technology to your enemy? The Khitomer accords prevented the federation from using their cloaking technology, i would think that the federation would push for the same thing if the klingons demanded the technology after the break down in relations

[RandomRedshirt]

The Khitomer accords prevented the federation from using their cloaking technology...

No, the Treaty of Algernon (with the Romulan Star Empire) prevents the use of cloaking technology on Federation vessels. The Treaty was amended by temporary agreement in order to allow the Defiant to use a cloaking device in exchange for tactical data on the Dominion, and still the device could only be used in the Gamma Quadrant.

As for the Ferengi: The entire Ferengi society, regardless of the impacts of Zek, Ishka and Rom, would have had to undergone radical change before they would have met the criteria for becoming a member of the Federation. If you ask me, this is a massive blunder on the part of Cryptic. No way changes of this magnitude would occur in 25-30 years.

As for the Gorn: hard to believe that the Hegemony would WILLINGLY join the Klingon Empire, based on the statements made in TOS: Arena, where the Gorn battling Kirk swears that the Gorn would rather die than be subjects to anyone. Once again, I see this as a writing blunder by Cryptic. It is not a character trait of the Gorn to be a part of a group, or to be subservient to anyone.

[Silverspar]

As for the Ferengi: The entire Ferengi society, regardless of the impacts of Zek, Ishka and Rom, would have had to undergone radical change before they would have met the criteria for becoming a member of the Federation. If you ask me, this is a massive blunder on the part of Cryptic. No way changes of this magnitude would occur in 25-30 years.

Really? Do you have proof anywhere? Going by Earth history, there have been major societal changes that took less than a generation. A single generation for change can happen, especially if it is something a society wants.

[RandomRedshirt]

Really? Do you have proof anywhere? Going by Earth history, there have been major societal changes that took less than a generation. A single generation for change can happen, especially if it is something a society wants.

You or anyone else will have a hard time convincing me that the entire Ferengi Federation changed from being money hungry capitalistic anti-female cavemen to being enlightened, socialist, and in favor of equality for all Ferengi regardless of sex, in all aspects of life, in less than 25 years? (Remember, applications to the Federation take approx. 25 years according to Kira in DS9, so that means the entire Ferengi civilization would have to change within 5 years of Nemesis, then file application to be accepted by 2409.)

Sorry, not buying it.

You want proof? Look at the race conflict in this country. From the time the 13th Amendment was passed giving Blacks the right to vote, how long did it take for true equality to be achieved? Even after the civil rights movement, can we truly say that full equality was achieved?

Radical changes in entire societies don't happen overnight. It may look like it could on paper, but it usually takes no less than 2 generations for the true effects to be seen, because not only does the generation that lived with something have to pass on, but their descendants in the next generation, who the first generation raised and taught, have to pass on as well in order to achieve a "clean slate." Even then, 2 generations is no guarentee.

[Silverspar]

You or anyone else will have a hard time convincing me that the entire Ferengi Federation changed from being money hungry capitalistic anti-female cavemen to being enlightened, socialist, and in favor of equality for all Ferengi regardless of sex, in all aspects of life, in less than 25 years? (Remember, applications to the Federation take approx. 25 years according to Kira in DS9, so that means the entire Ferengi civilization would have to change within 5 years of Nemesis, then file application to be accepted by 2409.)

Sorry, not buying it.

The reforms were starting as early as 2375, by 2409, 34 years would have gone by at least.

[Volomon]

Really? Do you have proof anywhere? Going by Earth history, there have been major societal changes that took less than a generation. A single generation for change can happen, especially if it is something a society wants.

A generation is considered from birth to death which is around 100 years these days and I imagine it so in the future. So saying it took less of a generation doesn't sound all that fast. I can't see what would make them want to give up naked women and all the goodies in 25 years or so, I mean come on the naked women too? This Rom cat would have to be one hell of a leader. Its not just a way of life for them it is a Religion, when they die they go to the Divine Exchange. Change like that is saying every religious person would stop existing and so would poverty on Earth in a mere 25 years. That's just hard to swallow.

As for the Gorn: hard to believe that the Hegemony would WILLINGLY join the Klingon Empire, based on the statements made in TOS: Arena, where the Gorn battling Kirk swears that the Gorn would rather die than be subjects to anyone. Once again, I see this as a writing blunder by Cryptic. It is not a character trait of the Gorn to be a part of a group, or to be subservient to anyone.

I have to agree, I'm not sure what the Gorn get in return for their joining the Klingon's but it must be something because I can not see them as pawns/slaves.

[Silverspar]

The defintion of generation in this context
A generation has traditionally been defined as “the average interval of time between the birth of parents and the birth of their offspring. This makes a generation around 30 years in length.

[Volomon]

The defintion of generation in this context

I still don't think its possible in 30 years, these people were raised on this as a religion. Religion isn't something you can just push away. Did I mention the naked women? Also whats STO's stance on Frengei womanization?

[Silverspar]

I still don't think its possible in 30 years, these people were raised on this as a religion. Religion isn't something you can just push away. Did I mention the naked women? Also whats STO's stance on Frengei womanization?

Zek himself wasn't a stickler for the rules, in fact he was pretty liberal about letting Ferengi women being clothed in doors, only as long as they were naked in public. The question that remains is when did this diplomatic reformation begin.

[Sovek]

The Nausicaans are probably recruited as allies for their harsh and warrior like tendencies, and the final straw that causes a break down of the Khitomer Accords is when the Klingon Empire annex's the Gorn Hegemony, since according to the GI article the Gorn were absorbed into the Empire.


You're reading a lot into the word "absorbed". Keep in mind that that's just choice of words from a game journalist and does not necessarily mean that the Gorn were subjugated by the Klingon Empire. There's no reason to believe that the Gorn didn't voluntarily ally themselves with the Klingons.

[Silverspar]

You're reading a lot into the word "absorbed". Keep in mind that that's just choice of words from a game journalist and does not necessarily mean that the Gorn were subjugated by the Klingon Empire. There's no reason to believe that the Gorn didn't voluntarily ally themselves with the Klingons.

Cryptic's had time to dispel any mis-quoting or improptu statements by now. I don't think I am reading all that deeply considering it's the information presented that Cryptic is backing 100%.

[Sovek]

Cryptic's had time to dispel any mis-quoting or improptu statements by now. I don't think I am reading all that deeply considering it's the information presented that Cryptic is backing 100%.

Either way, "absorb" doesn't exactly imply a hostile take over. Absorb simply means to add to one's self. The definition does not specify whether said actions are hostile or voluntary. Check a dictionary.

[Silverspar]

Either way, "absorb" doesn't exactly imply a hostile take over. Absorb simply means to add to one's self. The definition does not specify whether said actions are hostile or voluntary. Check a dictionary.

Considering the Gorn are isolationists, I doubt the Klingon's absorption of them and their culture was friendly.

[KashikoiBaka]

Considering the Gorn are isolationists, I doubt the Klingon's absorption of them and their culture was friendly.

The definition of Friendly when it comes to Klingons varies greatly. Two warrior cultures coming together doesn't seem that unlikely.

[Sovek]

Considering the Gorn are isolationists, I doubt the Klingon's absorption of them and their culture was friendly.

Would you be referencing the TOS episode that featured the Gorn? If so, they've had plenty of time to turn around. And how would you explain playable Gorn if they were unwilling participants? The article would not bother to mention them if they were not playable.

[Silverspar]

The definition of Friendly when it comes to Klingons varies greatly. Two warrior cultures coming together doesn't seem that unlikely.

Considering the incident with the Gorn in TOS was because the Federation basically ran afowl of the Gorn's mating grounds, I have my suspicions that it was about as friendly as a tribble at a Klingon wedding.

[Silverspar]

Would you be referencing the TOS episode that featured the Gorn? If so, they've had plenty of time to turn around. And how would you explain playable Gorn if they were unwilling participants? The article would not bother to mention them if they were not playable.

The same way I wuld explain any other conquered race that was playable. The Vulcans were a slave race in the Terran Empire, but the mirror Spock that is your avatar had a high position.

[Sovek]

The same way I wuld explain any other conquered race that was playable. The Vulcans were a slave race in the Terran Empire, but the mirror Spock that is your avatar had a high position.

Yes, but the Vulcans were enslaved long enough to be used to it, I believe. I doubt that the Gorn, less than 30 years after being conquered by the Klingons, would willingly serve in their military or be trusted enough by the Klingons to do so.

[Silverspar]

Yes, but the Vulcans were enslaved long enough to be used to it, I believe. I doubt that the Gorn, less than 30 years after being conquered by the Klingons, would willingly serve in their military or be trusted enough by the Klingons to do so.

Depends on how long Gorns live. Vulcans live for over 200 years, major difference, and still, even mirror T'Pal was in a ranking position in hte Mirror Universe.

[thefreshjedi]

...
Radical changes in entire societies don't happen overnight. It may look like it could on paper, but it usually takes no less than 2 generations for the true effects to be seen, because not only does the generation that lived with something have to pass on, but their descendants in the next generation, who the first generation raised and taught, have to pass on as well in order to achieve a "clean slate." Even then, 2 generations is no guarentee...

Agreed.

It doesn't matter what context you use the term "generation". Thirty years is not enough time to sort out the entire MULTIPLEX of complications that are caused by major societal changes and upheavals. I mean you're talking civil wars, guerilla wars, religious wars, etc. I mean, for goodness sake, the Middle East has been fighting over whose version of God is the correct one for the past 2000 years. Not to mention that when the Allies gave Israel to the Jews what a mess that whole thing created, taking what many Palestinians still believe today to be their land away from them, and putting their sworn enemy right next door to them, and maybe their anger is justified... I'm not going to debate those ethics now. The point is that 30 years is not nearly enough time to fully absorb another cultures philosophies or way of life, without some major upheavals.

I mean the Ferengi are a thousand times more volatile than the middle east is today, and you expect us to buy that they just changed, quite litterally overnight from a godless, mysoginistic capitalistic society to a peace-loving easy going community of hippies, hell bent on discovering other species and sharing there economy and technology openly?

Nope, sorry, not buying it, not interested, and if you believe that, I have a bridge I can sell you too.


-Avery

[Silverspar]

If you beleive your point of view, I got a better bridge to sell you as well.

[KashikoiBaka]

Maybe the Klingons just offered the Gorn a chance to fight more worthy enemies. I don't recall the Gorn having starships, but it has been a long while since I've seen that episode.

[Silverspar]

Maybe the Klingons just offered the Gorn a chance to fight more worthy enemies. I don't recall the Gorn having starships, but it has been a long while since I've seen that episode.

Captain Kirk and crew were chasing the Gorn in their starship. They couldn't exactly be a space fairing power without them.

[RandomRedshirt]

Maybe the Klingons just offered the Gorn a chance to fight more worthy enemies. I don't recall the Gorn having starships, but it has been a long while since I've seen that episode.

According to Memory Alpha, the Gorn had ships that were nearly equal to Constitution Class starships at the time of "Arena". Their weapons capabilites were advanced though, their energy weapons being said "to be like phasers, only worse."

[RandomRedshirt]

Now if Cryptic wanted to create a convincing back story for why the Klingons withdraw from Khitomer, one way to approach it would be this:

1. Federation is trying to make peace with the Romulans - This would be the proverbial spark to the fuse on the powder keg, as the Romulans are untrustworthy and long time enemies of the Klingon Empire. Factions on Kronos view this move as a sign that the Federation might be trying to form an alliance with the Romulans in order to take on the Klingon Empire. Thus, the Klingons unite with the Remans, creating strife with the Federation during the Romulan peace negotiations.

2. During the heightened tensions over the Romulan situation, the Federation has been assisting in the rebuilding of the Cardassian Union. Because the Klingons never saw eye to eye with the Federation in regards to the Cardassians, and the Klingon Invasion of Cardassian space (DS9: Way of the Warrior) conservative factions in the Klingon Empire view this as an insult by the Federation, and because the Klingons view Cardassia as having been conquered by the Empire, this constitutes a violation of the allied status between the Klingons and the Federation. The fuse ignited by #1 continues to burn closer to the powder keg.

3. Finally, in a final blow to the now fragile peace between the Klingons and the Federation, the Federation ignores calls by the Klingon High Council to execute the female shapehsifter who has been a war crimes prisoner since 2375. The Klingons call for execution, the Federation ignores this call in a sort of slap to the face of the Klingons for their hardline stance on Cardassia. After 20 so years in prison, the Federation frees the female shapeshifter and allows her to return to the Great Link at which point the powder keg explodes and the Klingons withdraw from the Khitomer Accords once again, and in response, go about convincing border worlds, including the Gorn to join with the Klingon Empire in a stand against the "weak and corrupt" Federation that wouldn't execute a shapeshifter who caused so many deaths of Klingon warriors during the Dominion War. While enroute to the Wormhole, to travel to the Gamma Quadrant, the USS Voyager, carrying the female shapeshifter is attacked by Klingon warships. The crew of Voyager had been selected for this mission because they had not been part of the Dominion War, therefore the crew wouldn't be affected by emotions of wanting retribution on the shapeshifter for the Dominion War. The resulting loss of a famed, reknowned Federation starship reinforces the resolve of the Federation which now seeks to punish the Klingons for their actions.

4. In response to Orion and the Gorn joining forces with the Klingon Empire, the Federation immediately grants Bajor entrance to the Federation, and at the same time, seeks alliances with Cardassia and Ferenginar (though not full member status) as well as works out a non-aggression pact with the Romulans, although the Romulans never live up to the pact and end up enemies of both the Klingons and the Federation once again, as was the case in the 2200's and 2300's. The landscape of the Alpha and Beta quadrants is now very divided with pockets of Klingon friendly space existing within the Federation, and the border with the Klingon Empire ever-shifting.

Now that, would be a convincing plot in my opinion. Not like anyone cares. :D

[The_Fred]

Sounds logical

[Scharwenka11285]

The idea of the Gorn either joining or being allied or as GI puts it 'absorbed' is not all that far fetched. They are one of my favorite species in the Star Trek Universe. If you read through some of the non-canon Star Trek, often known as the 'other Star Trek Universe', things from games, comics etc. after the Arena episode the Gorn and Federation became 'friends'. But during the Dominion War they allegedly sided with the Dominion against the other Alpha Quadrant powers. There was also a coup on the Gorn homeworld which the Enterprise E intervened. So its very much plausible that after the war, the Gorn enraged at the Federation and saw an opportunity to claim some former glory as the Klingons regained power.

Of course we won't know any real stories until the game releases. But I do look forward to hurling some really big rocks at any Humans who try to mess with me.