Will cloaking really be viable against other players?

[The.Grand.Nagus]

We all know cloak was a really cool story effect in the shows and movies. However, the question I pose is will it really be viable in game against other players, considering these facts:

1) EVERYONE will have their shields up in the Nuetral zone(which is where PvP will take place).

2) When cloaking/unlocking, your shields are down.

The only reason cloaked attacks worked in the shows is because the victim of those attacks had their shields down. However, since anyone who goes into the nuetral zone will obviously have their shields up, the only one who will have their shields down will be the person uncloaking. And what that will mean is that as soon as you begin to uncloak, the enemy ship will target you and fire at you before your shields are fully raised. Even if you manage to attack them, your attack will be against their shields, while their attack will be against your hull.

So while cloaking provided an interesting element to combat in the shows, will it really work in game?

[Father_Origin]

Cloaking has many uses.

1. escape
2. tailing or following a ship
3. hiding that fact you have people on a planet (have ship in orbit cloaked)
4. getting close enuff to a ship to limit the chance of escape
5. hide your numbers until engaged
6. making cool player videos

I am sure there are more

[Burchenall]

In every game they made shields lower with cloak, but in TNG 4x26 (:p) you see the BoP that attacked Gowron's Vor'Cha withdraw and receive many disruptor shots in the shields when cloacked...

By the way... it's a very cool scene... if someone has the need I can upload it somewere (http://cid-7d0bbbebba9458fa.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Carpeta%201/TNG%20-%204x26%20-%20Redemption%20trozo.wmv).

in STO I would prefer shields when cloak (on the contrary there would be no point in cloak), and mostly bubble shields :D

[DFawkes]

What if, when cloaked, you could take enhanced sensor reading. If the target ship has a skilled enough officer or enhanced sensors they'll notice this, but if not the claoked ship could scan their shield frequency and attack thorough. It'd at least give an incentive to have good officer on sensors.

But, as ever, I'm sure Cryptic know what they're doing.

[maserati813]

i would think it would best be used for startegic positioning. and even in the neutral zone during battle you could cloak and scan for weaker ships, cut of those trying to pull out of battle , sneak attacks, etc...

[Father_Origin]

Cloak plus shields don't work...there is a reason.

If you are cloaked, you are hiding.....kinda a given
that means, you cannot be projecting ANY energy at all, away from the ship

so...no shields (huge energy output)
no scans...again energy being directed away from the ship

now there is an answer to (no shields with cloak is useless)

ARMOR

passive defense (like armor) can provide protection while cloaked
and couldn't hurt while uncloaked either, it would also protect a cloaked
ship from damage from various space junk.

[Volomon]

We all know cloak was a really cool story effect in the shows and movies. However, the question I pose is will it really be viable in game against other players, considering these facts:

1) EVERYONE will have their shields up in the Nuetral zone(which is where PvP will take place).

2) When cloaking/unlocking, your shields are down.

The only reason cloaked attacks worked in the shows is because the victim of those attacks had their shields down. However, since anyone who goes into the nuetral zone will obviously have their shields up, the only one who will have their shields down will be the person uncloaking. And what that will mean is that as soon as you begin to uncloak, the enemy ship will target you and fire at you before your shields are fully raised. Even if you manage to attack them, your attack will be against their shields, while their attack will be against your hull.

So while cloaking provided an interesting element to combat in the shows, will it really work in game?

Cloaking will work like rogues in other games.

1) I'm not sure about this what if it wastes energy and who's to say they have their shields at max, not only that but its likely that the rear shields would be the weakest.

2) Most ships can't fire backwards and even if they could if doesn't take but a split second to pull your shields up. I've never seen anyone react fast enough to accomplish this, blowing up a decloaking vessel before they got their shields up. The decloaking vessel knows its decloaking the defending vessel wouldn't have a clue, so pressing a button is faster than locking on and firing.

3) It's extremely devastating when they are grouped in a stealth combat team. It would be really easy to pick off an unsuspecting person.

Everyone saying to scan shields and all this high intensity scanning would give you away and frequency settings are usually only discoverable via on board computers not scanning or else everyone would be blowing each other up with one shots.

[Tuvya]

2) Most ships can't fire backwards and even if they could if doesn't take but a split second to pull your shields up. I've never seen anyone react fast enough to accomplish this, blowing up a decloaking vessel before they got their shields up. The decloaking vessel knows its decloaking the defending vessel wouldn't have a clue, so pressing a button is faster than locking on and firing.

I've never seen a military ship not capable of firing on all sides..

[Father_Origin]

wanna hear the really funny part?

the star trek shows and movies....often violate thier own cannon


example....the movie generations

the Klingons in the bird of prey cannot cloak and have shields up (canon)
in fact, they get sneaky and force them to start to cloak to waste them

ok

how about the last movie?

the enterprise was battling that massive romulan? ship and they were
taking pot shots at it while it was cloaked.

when they did hit it, it hit shields....lol

ok, here is prob the best fair way to do cloak


each cloakable ship has a cloak rating..based on type of cloaking device, damage, ship size ect..
each ship of any type has an anti cloak rating based on sensor types, crew experience, damage,
are they actively looking?

ok you have

ship A's cloak rating
ship B's anti cloak rating

as long as the cloak rating is bigger than anti cloak rating..the ship is undetected

here is the catch...as the ship gets closer...the cloak rating drops...when it is below
the anti cloak rating..ship B detects the presence of a cloaked ship...when it is half
the rating, they can see and target it

in the end, a ship with poor detect will have trouble spotting any cloaked ship
a ship with good anti cloak will detect it when it starts to get close
a ship with a poor cloak might get spotted far off

[Burchenall]

ok you have

ship A's cloak rating
ship B's anti cloak rating

as long as the cloak rating is bigger than anti cloak rating..the ship is undetected

here is the catch...as the ship gets closer...the cloak rating drops...when it is below
the anti cloak rating..ship B detects the presence of a cloaked ship...when it is half
the rating, they can see and target it

in the end, a ship with poor detect will have trouble spotting any cloaked ship
a ship with good anti cloak will detect it when it starts to get close
a ship with a poor cloak might get spotted far off

Something like that would be nice but... with shields or without? :D
I liked the way that was used in SFC3 to detect cloaked ships... with the "anticloak" or by sending a probe near the cloaked ship.

[Deltab]

We all know cloak was a really cool story effect in the shows and movies. However, the question I pose is will it really be viable in game against other players, considering these facts:

1) EVERYONE will have their shields up in the Nuetral zone(which is where PvP will take place).

2) When cloaking/unlocking, your shields are down.

The only reason cloaked attacks worked in the shows is because the victim of those attacks had their shields down. However, since anyone who goes into the nuetral zone will obviously have their shields up, the only one who will have their shields down will be the person uncloaking. And what that will mean is that as soon as you begin to uncloak, the enemy ship will target you and fire at you before your shields are fully raised. Even if you manage to attack them, your attack will be against their shields, while their attack will be against your hull.

So while cloaking provided an interesting element to combat in the shows, will it really work in game?

Play a rogue in WOW or a spy in SWG. I honestly was a spy in SWG back when the only things you could do while cloak were move and shoot(decloaking you). I'll tell you what, ambushing a player who is buffed and ready for combat still has a major effect. Also it lets you pick and choose the fights that you know you are going to win. But don't forget surprise, its really nice to see a bad guy come at you and you know you are ready. Its bad to see a bad guy come at you and then, boom, you get jumped. Trust me it has a major effect. I switched to medic and still pvped. I was more or less imune to spies because of SOE's problem of balance, but they can still catch you off guard or at least make it much harder for you.

So don't underestimiate cloaking

[Father_Origin]

given that star trek doesn't even follow its own canon on this,
one of 3 things are likely

1. if armor is a widely available option or standard....no shields while cloaked
2. if armor is not widely available, but something similar is possible...partial shields while cloaked
3. armor is super rare..you can use shields during cloak..but have little energy
for anything else except on huge power rich ships


my best guess

having a ship get ambushed and 1 shoted might work for a no name ship in a show or movie,
but players will not put up with it.

[Volomon]

wanna hear the really funny part?

the star trek shows and movies....often violate thier own cannon


example....the movie generations

the Klingons in the bird of prey cannot cloak and have shields up (canon)
in fact, they get sneaky and force them to start to cloak to waste them

ok

how about the last movie?

the enterprise was battling that massive romulan? ship and they were
taking pot shots at it while it was cloaked.

when they did hit it, it hit shields....lol

ok, here is prob the best fair way to do cloak


each cloakable ship has a cloak rating..based on type of cloaking device, damage, ship size ect..
each ship of any type has an anti cloak rating based on sensor types, crew experience, damage,
are they actively looking?

ok you have

ship A's cloak rating
ship B's anti cloak rating

as long as the cloak rating is bigger than anti cloak rating..the ship is undetected

here is the catch...as the ship gets closer...the cloak rating drops...when it is below
the anti cloak rating..ship B detects the presence of a cloaked ship...when it is half
the rating, they can see and target it

in the end, a ship with poor detect will have trouble spotting any cloaked ship
a ship with good anti cloak will detect it when it starts to get close
a ship with a poor cloak might get spotted far off

I don't remember that I thought the cloaking briefly failed, thats the effect you were seeing.

[Volomon]

I've never seen a military ship not capable of firing on all sides..

Can't post images on this board but a diagram of a lot of Starfleet shows it can only fire in an arc in front of it its a large arc, and i think it can shoot torpedoes forward and backwards. On all ships modern and futuristic, most weapon and armaments are faced forward.

http://rpmshipboat.fotopic.net/p22459171.html

Most large war vessels main cannons are on the front they shoot from the front and the sides. Often they would have AA on the rear or half or even less than what they have in front, which has no equivalent in Star Trek but they probably wouldn't do anything to a large vessel.

The point still remains the same the rear would be the place to attack.

[Silverspar]

Can't post images on this board but a diagram of a lot of Starfleet shows it can only fire in an arc in front of it its a large arc, and i think it can shoot torpedoes forward and backwards. On all ships modern and futuristic, most weapon and armaments are faced forward.

http://rpmshipboat.fotopic.net/p22459171.html

Most large war vessels main cannons are on the front they shoot from the front and the sides. Often they would have AA on the rear, which has no equivalent in Star Trek but they probably wouldn't do anything to a large vessel.

The picture you showed, those guns can rotate around 360 degrees and I am not sure what their elevation arc can is, but I believe it is something like 120 to 160 degrees. Anyways, that being said, most TNG starships have what is called a phaser array, it's a strip that the phaser arc can be fired at any point on it in any direction the arc can get a clear shot at. Some starships have only a few of these arrays, larger starships have a lot of these arrays. The Sovereign, for isntance, has 16 phaser arrays and can fire in 720 degrees. The Sovereigns type XII phaser arrays also let's it fire multiple beams from the same strip at the same time. Imagine that when a Sovereign comes barrelling at you firing about 8 seperate blasts from multiple phaser arrays :p

[Signalsgt]

I just wonder if the old trick of turning up the Gamma will defeat the cloak.

[Volomon]

The picture you showed, those guns can rotate around 360 degrees and I am not sure what their elevation arc can is, but I believe it is something like 120 to 160 degrees. Anyways, that being said, most TNG starships have what is called a phaser array, it's a strip that the phaser arc can be fired at any point on it in any direction the arc can get a clear shot at. Some starships have only a few of these arrays, larger starships have a lot of these arrays. The Sovereign, for isntance, has 16 phaser arrays and can fire in 720 degrees. The Sovereigns type XII phaser arrays also let's it fire multiple beams from the same strip at the same time. Imagine that when a Sovereign comes barrelling at you firing about 8 seperate blasts from multiple phaser arrays :p

Ya they can but it would be a hell of a thing to blow up the control tower and the people operating the guns, I figured that was a given. 720 degree? You have to explain that one to me I'm only aware of the 360 degrees which is a full circle. They have almost a full 360 degree range but they do not. It can fire above and backward or below and backward but not directly backward.

You can figure this out easily because the "strips" are flat they can not self elevate allowing rear facing firing. They are however slanted FORWARD allowing directly forward fire.

[lumpking69]

The one thing that I'm afraid of when it comes to cloaks (my CoX and WoW brothers will know what I mean) I am afraid that a cloaking device will be a "stealth" and not an "invisibility" power.

I don't want cloaks to be useless or easily penetrated at all. I want to get in my bird of prey and park my nose rite in front of the enemy's deflector dish and not be detected dammit!

[Father_Origin]

if memory serves, some weapon systems circle the entire ship
for the feds, that is phasers (sometimes different types)

and heavy weapons have certain arcs


since cryptic says, fighting will be slow and strategic...count on firing arcs

if ships didn't have them, then there would be no strategy..it would be finger mashing
fire fire fire ect..til mob dies

My educated guess

the more powerful the weapon, the more limited the arc and the longer the recharge time

[Silverspar]

Ya they can but it would be a hell of a thing to blow up the control tower and the people operating the guns, I figured that was a given. 720 degree? You have to explain that one to me I'm only aware of the 360 degrees which is a full circle. They have almost a full 360 degree range but they do not. It can fire above and backward or below and backward but not directly backward.

You can figure this out easily because the "strips" are flat they can not self elevate allowing rear facing firing. They are however slanted FORWARD allowing directly forward fire.

720 degrees, 360 is just one planar view, which you are describing as around you in a circle on a level plane. The 360 degree above and below you also is accounted for which to. Thus, the example of the gunboat in your pic, using the minimum and taking out the roughly 90 degree turn on firing on the control tower, it would have about a 390 degree firing arc (left to right and up and down) while a starship like the sovereign has a 720 (left to right up to down all around) firing arc.

[Silverspar]

The one thing that I'm afraid of when it comes to cloaks (my CoX and WoW brothers will know what I mean) I am afraid that a cloaking device will be a "stealth" and not an "invisibility" power.

I don't want cloaks to be useless or easily penetrated at all. I want to get in my bird of prey and park my nose rite in front of the enemy's deflector dish and not be detected dammit!

Cloaks aren't invisibiity, they are stealth technology, and classified as such. They can be detected if you know what to look for. That's canon.

[Volomon]

if memory serves, some weapon systems circle the entire ship
for the feds, that is phasers (sometimes different types)

and heavy weapons have certain arcs


since cryptic says, fighting will be slow and strategic...count on firing arcs

if ships didn't have them, then there would be no strategy..it would be finger mashing
fire fire fire ect..til mob dies

My educated guess

the more powerful the weapon, the more limited the arc and the longer the recharge time

OTS didn't TNG didn't Voyager didn't the Sovereign Class didn't I'm not aware of any full circle range. On all the ships they are based on banks, having them facing forward makes sense it allows you to maintain a forward movement while concentrating fire. In order to make use of a full circle arced phaser system you have to rotate your craft in a circle (literally spinning in a circle) to make use of it especially if you are fighting a fast ship. It might be able to fly circles around a large vessel, at some point it becomes impractical.

So essentially it would be a waste of space and firepower and energy if it was a full arc. Unless of course you are a space station or some super slow moving vessel that can't position itself.

[lumpking69]

Cloaks aren't invisibiity, they are stealth technology, and classified as such. They can be detected if you know what to look for. That's canon.

Very true, but what I mean is that in the shows Ive always felt like the cloaks served for as invisibility since they were so hard to detect and when ever something decloaked in front of you it was a major surprise. I was talking in gaming terms. Stealth is lesser to invis and in gaming terms I don't think "stealth" fits the bill when it comes to cloaks.

[Father_Origin]

when I say, full circle with phasor banks...more correctly,
they have banks all around the ship that give the ship at least some
available phasers in all directions.

but yes, each individual bank has its arc.

[Silverspar]

Very true, but what I mean is that in the shows Ive always felt like the cloaks served for as invisibility since they were so hard to detect and when ever something decloaked in front of you it was a major surprise. I was talking in gaming terms. Stealth is lesser to invis and in gaming terms I don't think "stealth" fits the bill when it comes to cloaks.

A stealth fighter or bomber is hard to detect, but that doesn't make it invisible. Perceptively, it bends light, but there is mroe ways to look for something than using your eyes.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

now there is an answer to (no shields with cloak is useless)

ARMOR

passive defense (like armor) can provide protection while cloaked
and couldn't hurt while uncloaked either, it would also protect a cloaked
ship from damage from various space junk.

more armor = less space for other systems, meaning less weapons.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

Play a rogue in WOW or a spy in SWG. I honestly was a spy in SWG back when the only things you could do while cloak were move and shoot(decloaking you). I'll tell you what, ambushing a player who is buffed and ready for combat still has a major effect. Also it lets you pick and choose the fights that you know you are going to win. But don't forget surprise, its really nice to see a bad guy come at you and you know you are ready. Its bad to see a bad guy come at you and then, boom, you get jumped. Trust me it has a major effect. I switched to medic and still pvped. I was more or less imune to spies because of SOE's problem of balance, but they can still catch you off guard or at least make it much harder for you.

So don't underestimiate cloaking

cloak cannot be compared to stealth in WoW or SWG because in the latter two games you do not lose "shields" when in stealth. cloak in the ST universe has a distinct disadvantage of making you MORE vulnerable if hit, which is not the case in the two games you mentioned.

[Reinkaos]

We all know cloak was a really cool story effect in the shows and movies. However, the question I pose is will it really be viable in game against other players, considering these facts:

1) EVERYONE will have their shields up in the Nuetral zone(which is where PvP will take place).

2) When cloaking/unlocking, your shields are down.

The only reason cloaked attacks worked in the shows is because the victim of those attacks had their shields down. However, since anyone who goes into the nuetral zone will obviously have their shields up, the only one who will have their shields down will be the person uncloaking. And what that will mean is that as soon as you begin to uncloak, the enemy ship will target you and fire at you before your shields are fully raised. Even if you manage to attack them, your attack will be against their shields, while their attack will be against your hull.

So while cloaking provided an interesting element to combat in the shows, will it really work in game?

If you use your cloaking device with sense, you'd pick your targets, and wait for them to lower their shields, if you're intent on destroying them.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

If you use your cloaking device with sense, you'd pick your targets, and wait for them to lower their shields, if you're intent on destroying them.

Obviously, but the point is that in the nuetral zone NO ONE will lower their shields ;)

[Reinkaos]

The one thing that I'm afraid of when it comes to cloaks (my CoX and WoW brothers will know what I mean) I am afraid that a cloaking device will be a "stealth" and not an "invisibility" power.

I don't want cloaks to be useless or easily penetrated at all. I want to get in my bird of prey and park my nose rite in front of the enemy's deflector dish and not be detected dammit!

Get yourself a Scimitar then :p

[Reinkaos]

Obviously, but the point is that in the nuetral zone NO ONE will lower their shields ;)

There'll always be some :p new players who don't realise, perhaps, or some ships that are "vulnerable" to bait cloaked ships into firing on them and such :D

[Volomon]

when I say, full circle with phasor banks...more correctly,
they have banks all around the ship that give the ship at least some
available phasers in all directions.

but yes, each individual bank has its arc.

No ship has full phaser banks around the entire ship. That I am aware of anyway. You can play many Star Trek games with the ships in them none of them fire directly behind. A good example is Bridge Commander it has many ships in it. It can shoot in a backward direction but it can not shoot directly behind itself there basically a blind spot.

You can see where the strip starts and ends like the fed ship at the top it doesn't go in a full 360 degrees its maybe 270 degrees.

[Silverspar]

No ship has full phaser banks around the entire ship. That I am aware of anyway. You can play many Star Trek games with the ships in them none of them fire directly behind. A good example is Bridge Commander it has many ships in it. It can shoot in a backward direction but it can not shoot directly behind itself there basically a blind spot.

Games aren't canon. The Galaxy has phaser arrays on the back end up it and is quite capable of shooping backwards. Why the designers of Bridge Commander did what they did, I will never know, though they were probably just going by the stiff shots seen in TNG, though their are obviously phaser arrays.

The Sovereign has a 720 degree firing arc, so yes it can fire backwards.

[arakkis]

No ship has full phaser banks around the entire ship. That I am aware of anyway. You can play many Star Trek games with the ships in them none of them fire directly behind. A good example is Bridge Commander it has many ships in it. It can shoot in a backward direction but it can not shoot directly behind itself there basically a blind spot.

You can see where the strip starts and ends like the fed ship at the top it doesn't go in a full 360 degrees its maybe 270 degrees.

Sorry Volomon, but I have to correct you on this. The ships of ST are large and not very maneuverable and thus cannot easily bring one firing arc to bear on a target. There are of course exceptions like the Defiant, but even that has a phaser array. This is why all of the ships in SF have at least some weapons that fire behind them, even though more weapons may face front. I suggest you play any of the Starfleet Command series of games for an example of this.

On topic: The problem with cloaking devices is that they use a LOT of power, this is why small ships have to lower their shields to use them, they just don't have enough power to keep both running. Larger ships like the Romulan battleship in Nemesis have larger power reserves to draw on and can therefor keep shields up while cloaked.

[Eureka]

So while cloaking provided an interesting element to combat in the shows, will it really work in game?

i think so, were not always gonna be fighting each other, and even if we are, the cloaked ship can just arrive at battle towards there end, and sink the enemy, it might save a lot of people

[Spire]

Why don't you just uncloak, raise shields, then fire? Or even uncloak, fire, and raise shields before the enemy can counter attack. There's going to be a delay between the time the enemy sees you and when they attack you, you should be able to raise shields and get some shots in before they even know where the fire is coming from. And that's really how this ship should be played. It lies in wait and then knocks you out before you have any idea what happened. A ship small enough to cloak isn't going to survive long in a fight, so it better hit first and hit hard.

So yes, I think cloaking will be very useful in combat.

[Rgoodfel]

Ok folks, Star Trek is a TV show. TV shows don't have to worry about playable mechanics. They just have to do things that fit the story, and make watching the show exciting. So somethings that are apart of canon don't translate well to a game. There are bound to be changes to certain mechanics to make the game more playable.

Now I am not sure what they are going to do to handle cloaking to make it balanced in the game. However, i trust that cryptic can do the job.

[Reinkaos]

Why don't you just uncloak, raise shields, then fire? Or even uncloak, fire, and raise shields before the enemy can counter attack. There's going to be a delay between the time the enemy sees you and when they attack you, you should be able to raise shields and get some shots in before they even know where the fire is coming from. And that's really how this ship should be played. It lies in wait and then knocks you out before you have any idea what happened. A ship small enough to cloak isn't going to survive long in a fight, so it better hit first and hit hard.

So yes, I think cloaking will be very useful in combat.

Decloaking typically takes a few seconds, and charging your weapons will take a short while too. A sharp Captain will have time to raise his shields and take evasive maneuvers in that time, if not fire back. If he's not been a clever Captain and known there was a cloaked ship shadowing him all along :p

[_Pax_]

1) EVERYONE will have their shields up in the Nuetral zone(which is where PvP will take place).
Maybe, maybe not. If everyone has FUEL TANKS (the Star Fleet Battles rationale for not running around with your shields and phaser banks always fully-charged and ready to go), then, they may not have their shields up 24/7 ... not if they want to stray far from a starbase, for very long.

2) When cloaking/unlocking, your shields are down.
Maybe, maybe not. It's been forty years, the technology may have advanced somewhat. Maybe now, the cloak only partly destabilises shields (doubling all hits that strike them, for example) ...

The only reason cloaked attacks worked in the shows is because the victim of those attacks had their shields down. However, since anyone who goes into the nuetral zone will obviously have their shields up, the only one who will have their shields down will be the person uncloaking. And what that will mean is that as soon as you begin to uncloak, the enemy ship will target you and fire at you before your shields are fully raised. Even if you manage to attack them, your attack will be against their shields, while their attack will be against your hull.
If Cryptic does their homework, you won't be ALLOWED to run around at Red Alert all the time. So it'll take you a few moments to power up those guns.

And if the cloak-using ship does THEIR homework, they will uncloak after getting into a perfect position to avoid most of yoru guns. Most of the romulans we see in TNG did not use their cloak well - they should have uncloaked BEHIND the Enterprise, where fewer of her phasers could reach.

So while cloaking provided an interesting element to combat in the shows, will it really work in game?
Done right, I think it can.

[Deltab]

Heres another point. If the cloaked ship can fire off a shot while decloaking, then have it take about 1 second for its shields to come up, it would work out game play wise. Honestly unless the Defending ship is already targeting the cloaked ship(not going to happen) then it will take a second or two for the defending ship to shoot back. Likely by then the attacker's shields are up and the attacker is already hammering down.

Also a side note. Yes on TV and in the movies Federation ships had a 360 by 360 firing arc. However, the devs said that there will be arc limits. So a Negh'var could decloak and jump an Intrepid from behind. I think everyone here knows what would happen in that situation. Shields or no shields, its unlikely the poor Intrepid would be able to do much.

Cloak also lets smaller ships get as close as possible to the larger ships and use the enemy ships arcs against them. So a B'rel(highly upgraded) could Decloak right behind a Sov, right in its blind spot and hammer away using its agility to make it so the Sov could not shake it. This would likely not work if the ship wasn't cloaked to begin with.

Like I said before, playing a cloaked profession in SWG was a ton of fun and was a clear advantage.

[Reinkaos]

I hope that it's such that, should you detect a cloaked ship, it doesn't automatically break that ship's cloak/bring that ship to automatic red alert. perhaps auto red alert would be initialised in the cloaked ship if I lock weapons onto it while it's cloaked or something.

But I think it would be much more interesting if you could detect a cloaked ship, and be able to monitor it, and watch their actions, and so on. Devise a strategy. It would, at least for me, add another level of tactics to the game as knowing there's a cloaked ship following me, I would have a few options, rather than simply fighting and destroying or (preferably) disabling it.

I could hail them immediately and ask what they're doing, for example. That alone would be enough to deter some people. I could lure them into a trap I devise.

It would also be that much more interesting if I were the cloaked vessel as I'd have to wager whether or not they know I'm there, and devise a plan of action if my "Plan A" fails. :)

[The.Grand.Nagus]

I hope that it's such that, should you detect a cloaked ship, it doesn't automatically break that ship's cloak/bring that ship to automatic red alert. perhaps auto red alert would be initialised in the cloaked ship if I lock weapons onto it while it's cloaked or something.

But I think it would be much more interesting if you could detect a cloaked ship, and be able to monitor it, and watch their actions, and so on. Devise a strategy. It would, at least for me, add another level of tactics to the game as knowing there's a cloaked ship following me, I would have a few options, rather than simply fighting and destroying or (preferably) disabling it.

I could hail them immediately and ask what they're doing, for example. That alone would be enough to deter some people. I could lure them into a trap I devise.

It would also be that much more interesting if I were the cloaked vessel as I'd have to wager whether or not they know I'm there, and devise a plan of action if my "Plan A" fails. :)

If you detect a cloaked enemy ship, a full burst of all your weapons should pretty much cripple them :D

[The.Grand.Nagus]

Like I said before, playing a cloaked profession in SWG was a ton of fun and was a clear advantage.

once again, SWG stealth cannot be compared to ST cloak because in SWG you do not lose your armor protection, which in ST you lose your shields when cloaked. the only disadvantage of stealth in ST is impeded movement; the disadvantage of ST cloak is lowered defenses.

[lumpking69]

Get yourself a Scimitar then :p

hehe, I hope the lesser ships will have just as beefy cloak

[Trapper]

Guy, guys, in Undiscovered Country a Klingon Bird of Prey was shooting while cloaked. That's one stupid powerful ship with all the advantages. Canon...yes or no? This game is going to rock!

[The.Grand.Nagus]

hehe, I hope the lesser ships will have just as beefy cloak

IF it takes more machinery to produce a more effective cloak, then you would have to have a larger hull to accomodate that machinery. For example, in SFC3 the higher the level system, the more mass it took up on your ship.

[Deltab]

once again, SWG stealth cannot be compared to ST cloak because in SWG you do not lose your armor protection, which in ST you lose your shields when cloaked. the only disadvantage of stealth in ST is impeded movement; the disadvantage of ST cloak is lowered defenses.

True but spies really only had one main attack.. and that was done while decloaking.... But honestly you must realize there is lag and reaction time. So really, both sides will have their shields up by the time the defender shoots back.

[Reinkaos]

If you detect a cloaked enemy ship, a full burst of all your weapons should pretty much cripple them :D

Certainly would :p but, I'd like a mechanic where, unless you fire on the cloaked ship, they remain cloaked (and thinking they have the advantage), and you can track them/analyse them and try and get a better picture.

Of course if they're showing hostile intentions they're going to find themselves at the end of my sights lol :D

[Reinkaos]

IF it takes more machinery to produce a more effective cloak, then you would have to have a larger hull to accomodate that machinery. For example, in SFC3 the higher the level system, the more mass it took up on your ship.

That annoyed me how I couldnt' *totally* pimp out my Sovereign :D

[Deltab]

Guy, guys, in Undiscovered Country a Klingon Bird of Prey was shooting while cloaked. That's one stupid powerful ship with all the advantages. Canon...yes or no? This game is going to rock!

Lol i was thinking the same thing. But that might be a tad too powerful. Imagine a cloaked Negh'var going nuts. However, who is to say in the future that the Klingons wont be able to have their shields up?

But anyways in all likely hood both ships will have their shields up by the time the defender shoots back.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

True but spies really only had one main attack.. and that was done while decloaking.... But honestly you must realize there is lag and reaction time. So really, both sides will have their shields up by the time the defender shoots back.

not necessarily. let me give you an example: lets say there is a "target" button that automaticly targets the nearest enemy. if i think there is a cloaked ship near me(or if i have already done battle with him and he cloaked), i would be constantly pressing the target button, so that the second he uncloaked he woudl be targeted and fired upon. in that scenerio, he would be badly damaged before his shields raised, while any attack he did to me would be on my shields.

[Deltab]

Certainly would :p but, I'd like a mechanic where, unless you fire on the cloaked ship, they remain cloaked (and thinking they have the advantage), and you can track them/analyse them and try and get a better picture.

Of course if they're showing hostile intentions they're going to find themselves at the end of my sights lol :D

Yeah I think it should be up to the cloaked ship as to if it decloaks. So if the Decloaked ship is able to detect on the cloaked ship, it should be able to blast away.

[Deltab]

not necessarily. let me give you an example: lets say there is a "target" button that automaticly targets the nearest enemy. if i think there is a cloaked ship near me(or if i have already done battle with him and he cloaked), i would be constantly pressing the target button, so that the second he uncloaked he woudl be targeted and fired upon. in that scenerio, he would be badly damaged before his shields raised, while any attack he did to me would be on my shields.

Ok so by the time your torpedo hits its target, its shields will be up. Next server lag means thats likely its shields will be up in all likely hood. Also if they use a system like bridge commander like they said they were going to do. Or any other MMO that i have ever heard of. You would have to target the enemy ship then fire. This means you need to do 2 commands. In this time the cloaked ships shields will likely be up.

[dh8d1]

If it were me being the klingons (which I won't play at first) I'd be different about decloaking.
I'd decloak while going to impulse, varying my speed and flightpath while decloaking to evade attacks while my shields are going up.

Besides, I have full faith in Cryptic.
What's likely is they will make the situation thus - when you decloak the other players will be able to see you and fire, but not hit you, or at least not in time - at least most of the time. I think it'll have to be difficult to do given the rise in technology (armor upgrades, deflector improvements, etc)

Savvy?

[Reinkaos]

not necessarily. let me give you an example: lets say there is a "target" button that automaticly targets the nearest enemy. if i think there is a cloaked ship near me(or if i have already done battle with him and he cloaked), i would be constantly pressing the target button, so that the second he uncloaked he woudl be targeted and fired upon. in that scenerio, he would be badly damaged before his shields raised, while any attack he did to me would be on my shields.

If I was the cloaked ship, with intentions on attacking you, and I suddenly saw you raise shields and charge weapons, I wouldn't decloak. Hell, if you were constantly at red alert I simply wouldn't decloak. I'd just wait until you powered down :p. It wouldn't make sense otherwise, as my surprise attack wouldn't work. I think that if any cloaked ship were to decloak in that situation, they'd be silly to have done so, and they'd probably lose.

Bah. I wonder how rife "auto-targeting" macros will become in STO..

/targetenemy
/in 1 /targetenemy
/targetlock /if hostile /fire torpedoes
/fire phasers
/win

//has no clue how to write macros

[Deltab]

If I was the cloaked ship, with intentions on attacking you, and I suddenly saw you raise shields and charge weapons, I wouldn't decloak. Hell, if you were constantly at red alert I simply wouldn't decloak. I'd just wait until you powered down :p. It wouldn't make sense otherwise, as my surprise attack wouldn't work. I think that if any cloaked ship were to decloak in that situation, they'd be silly to have done so, and they'd probably lose.

Bah. I wonder how rife "auto-targeting" macros will become in STO..

/targetenemy
/in 1 /targetenemy
/targetlock /if hostile /fire torpedoes
/fire phasers
/win

//has no clue how to write macros

They had such things in SWG, but usually the attacking spy was able to get 2-5 shots off before the defender even got to shoot back. Its just reaction time, lag, and attack timers.

[cocoa-jin]

the secret to allowing decloacking vessels the ability to decrease the duration between decloaking and firing will be in eliminating a step.

By allowing manual/bore-sight firing as an option, the skilled captain would be able to fire without a target lock...the captain just needs to be a good enough shot to hit with them.

[Reinkaos]

the secret to allowing decloacking vessels the ability to decrease the duration between decloaking and firing will be in eliminating a step.

By allowing manual/bore-sight firing as an option, the skilled captain would be able to fire without a target lock...the captain just needs to be a good enough shot to hit with them.

And do some hull damage to your target, but no real damage, unless you take out one of their nacelles. A decloaking vessel should aim to hit a critical system to make the most out of the surprise attack.

[OrabIbo]

I like the idea of cloaked ships having increased armor, but only marginally more than other ships. Like just enough to prevent instant kills.

Thing is armor doesn't regenerate. And I think upgrades in armor should add a considerable amount of mass, making the ship less manuverable. And a slow cloaked ship is far less effective than a quick fast cloaked ship.

[Lord_Xomic]

Everyone seems to be missing the point the op is pointing out; anyone who's in the neutal zone will be expecting to be attacked, so any advantage one would get from being cloaked is lost because the element of surprise simply does not exist.

[dh8d1]

Everyone seems to be missing the point the op is pointing out; anyone who's in the neutal zone will be expecting to be attacked, so any advantage one would get from being cloaked is lost because the element of surprise simply does not exist.

um no, if you'd read, there was someone who said that it's likely there will be a limit to shields, i.e. that having them up will deplete resources and you can't have them up 100% of the time or you'll run out.

[Deltab]

Everyone seems to be missing the point the op is pointing out; anyone who's in the neutal zone will be expecting to be attacked, so any advantage one would get from being cloaked is lost because the element of surprise simply does not exist.

See I've been pvping for years in SWG and yes I even tried wow. The thing is, you shouldn't say they are expecting an attack(well they will be for the 1st 3 mins then start to get complacent). Its more like people are aware that PvP could likely happen. Trust me flying around in a PvP zone you will eventually get more complacent and thus surprise happens.

It also helps mask your numbers, and lets you pick your fights. So if a decked out Sovereign was roaming around with 2 Galaxies and an Akira, then a Bird of Prey might not want to attack them. However, If a Bird of Prey comes aross a single enemy it will be able to attack it. Keep in mind that without that cloak the Bird of Prey would likely have no hope against the 1st task force.

Cloak is an Amazingly useful tool. Also note that often when cloaked professions and classes are invovled, there is usually an Alpha strike upon exiting cloak. So the way it sounds from the Devs, it will likely happen here as well.

[Reinkaos]

Everyone seems to be missing the point the op is pointing out; anyone who's in the neutal zone will be expecting to be attacked, so any advantage one would get from being cloaked is lost because the element of surprise simply does not exist.

No, it wouldn't, as the person in the neutral zone wouldn't have a clue when they would be attacked, and it does seem likely that you will not be able to have shields or weapons up 100% of the time. An undetected cloaked ship still has the advantage if it's patient and waits for its target to become vulnerable.

[Reinkaos]

However, If a Bird of Prey comes aross a single enemy it will be able to attack it. Hehe, I keep imagining that happening, and then the escort of that ship decloaks and shows the BoP what-for :D

[WarpVis]

We all know cloak was a really cool story effect in the shows and movies. However, the question I pose is will it really be viable in game against other players, considering these facts:

1) EVERYONE will have their shields up in the Nuetral zone(which is where PvP will take place).

2) When cloaking/unlocking, your shields are down.

The only reason cloaked attacks worked in the shows is because the victim of those attacks had their shields down. However, since anyone who goes into the nuetral zone will obviously have their shields up, the only one who will have their shields down will be the person uncloaking. And what that will mean is that as soon as you begin to uncloak, the enemy ship will target you and fire at you before your shields are fully raised. Even if you manage to attack them, your attack will be against their shields, while their attack will be against your hull.

So while cloaking provided an interesting element to combat in the shows, will it really work in game?

I tend to disagree with your assessment of cloaking usefulness. In City of Heroes/Villians, another set of titles developed by Cryptic, some heroes/villians make great use of invisibility and other similar powers in the PvP areas. I absolutely hate it when my hero gets backshot by some unscruplus villian that then fades back away before I can get a bead on them. While I do expect ship combat to be somewhat different I see no reason that cloaking would be any less effective in the propper hands.

[dh8d1]

There will also likely be missions in the neutral zone where beaming will be required. In which, you'll be forced to lower your shields and be supceptible to attack from a decloaking ship.

There are also other reasons to be vulnderable, like shields might fail. Reasons for that include dampening fields, or radiation in some kind of nebula, that kind of thing.

So, hopefully this quells the "everybody is missing the OP's point" debate.

[cocoa-jin]

And do some hull damage to your target, but no real damage, unless you take out one of their nacelles. A decloaking vessel should aim to hit a critical system to make the most out of the surprise attack.

Its the trade off for getting the shot off faster, so now its up to to the captain to manually place that shot as close to a critical system as possible...this will require the decloaking captain have some knowledge of where these systems are on his opponent's ship. This is all lumped into the "skills" thing we want so bad in game...no "gemmes", no "easy button", no crutches and no button spamming.

[cocoa-jin]

People think too much in terms of solo/1 vs 1 engagements. Correct, its much harder to use a cloak in that scenerio...so dont.

Use the cloak to engage a target that is already pre-occupied with another target, already target locked, shields already deminished, sensory suite already damaged...thats when a cloaked vessel is at its best.

I routinly used small BoP in Klingon Academy in this manner, much larger ships were rapidly rendered helpless by my attacks because I picked my targets and my attack runs appropriatly. I became a fleet or capital ship multiplier making my fellow ships more effective.

I only brought to the fight a few more guns and 1-2 more torpedos, but my strategic strikes quickly rendered the enemy unable to fight.

[Tranca0]

I see no reason why ships could not have armour as well as shields.

As I saw it from ST the Fed ships had strong shields but weak armour and string hulls. Klingon ships had weaker shields but strong armour and moderate hulls. Weapons could be debated elsewhere.

We can have hull upgrades, armour upgrades and shield upgrades. Someone mentioned that increased armour would affect your agility or speed. This could be the case but it would also depend on the technology of the armour. You could theoretically have much better armour but it could also be lighter. This would be a high tech item but its quite possilbe.

I definatly like Reinkaos's idea of uncloaking and shooting "down the bore" style. It opens up yet another tactic that can be used.

As for weapon arcs and whatnot, no ship can be 100% protected. Granted, the larger ships would have more room to cover more exposures but this is space. You have to worry about all angles and all directions. No ship could possibly protect all areas at once. No could they attack anywhere in the 720deg sphere.

Again, tactics comes into play. Especially with the other posts bring in ship agility, I am of the firm belief that just becasue you have a target lock doesn't mean you are guarenteed to hit. God only knows how many times we have seen throughout ST history of targets being locked yet STILL missing so many shots!!! Its amazing. But when you bring into account that full impulse speed was what...about 80% of warp 1 or some very high number, that you could actually miss quite often. ( there was a video showing just how often they miss set to the Benny Hill music I saw once but be damned if I can find it!)

[Father_Origin]

Maybe, maybe not. If everyone has FUEL TANKS (the Star Fleet Battles rationale for not running around with your shields and phaser banks always fully-charged and ready to go), then, they may not have their shields up 24/7 ... not if they want to stray far from a starbase, for very long.


Maybe, maybe not. It's been forty years, the technology may have advanced somewhat. Maybe now, the cloak only partly destabilises shields (doubling all hits that strike them, for example) ...


If Cryptic does their homework, you won't be ALLOWED to run around at Red Alert all the time. So it'll take you a few moments to power up those guns.

And if the cloak-using ship does THEIR homework, they will uncloak after getting into a perfect position to avoid most of yoru guns. Most of the romulans we see in TNG did not use their cloak well - they should have uncloaked BEHIND the Enterprise, where fewer of her phasers could reach.


Done right, I think it can.

ok, but this might be cringed about.

why do you not run around at red alert?

several reason

1. your crew needs to rest and sleep..red alert requires all personel
2. wear and tear ...keeping the shields on all the time will burn them out
3. few ships have to power to be at full alert AND move at warp over a long period
4. your ship would show up like a beacon to any and every long range scan
5. red alert would lose its meaning...what if you run into a problem? go to double red alert?

[lumberman_619]

You know whats funny? I've been reading this forum thread for a while, and i must say from all your comments, i can only see one view point: "The Federation Ship's View Point". I mean i haven't even heard of the what happens if Klingons went against the Romulans on their borders view. I mean wouldn't that be a kick in the ass if your BoP came to attack one of the Romulan's BoP? And imagine when both are cloaked prepared to attack each other, imagine the stalemate there. But the thing i am trying to say is off topic, it is kinda seeming that your view points on the defender ship is more likely it is a Federation ship instead of another cloakable civilization's ship.

Anyway on topic, i believe having cloaking systems would make pvp more fun, since i can't say how many times i been in a Battleground in WoW and not been saped or killed by a rouge, so being a ship in neutral zone and being attacked by a cloaked enemy wouldn't be that bad, i mean even if you have shields up and all. I mean isn't the cloak suppose to give the attacker an advantage of being able to sneak up to the enemy, and not be seen, to a point? Plus added to that the neutral zone is like a battleground from any pvp game, where the player/defender, would expect to be getting jumped. I know now i'm getting a little complicated with my point, which is that, cloaking is suppose to be another option tactic for anyone, so having it would be quite nice for pvping. Cloaking is kind of like a weapon for people who prefer quick hit and run tactics. After all its not the weapon that determines the victor in battle but the soldier, for even if your opponent has the best weapon there is, if he doesn't know how to use it, than he's a sitting duck with a really big paper weight. (i know i might get criticized for w/e i am saying but the point is in the hands of skilled player, a cloak can be more devastating than even the Scrimtar's radiation weapon)

[masterguns]

Battleshipd of WW2 had most of their armament forward, so while they could fire to the rear they couldnt fire with ALL their guns which adds up to an advantage. A classic example is ''crossing the T''
your ships Theirs
l
l --------------
l

All your guns are brought to bear while only the enemies rear guns can fire at you, the last time this was accomplished was at the battle of midway btw =D

[Burchenall]

You know whats funny? I've been reading this forum thread for a while, and i must say from all your comments, i can only see one view point: "The Federation Ship's View Point". I mean i haven't even heard of the what happens if Klingons went against the Romulans on their borders view. I mean wouldn't that be a kick in the ass if your BoP came to attack one of the Romulan's BoP? And imagine when both are cloaked prepared to attack each other, imagine the stalemate there. But the thing i am trying to say is off topic, it is kinda seeming that your view points on the defender ship is more likely it is a Federation ship instead of another cloakable civilization's ship.

The problem is that fans of bloodthirsty klingons want to pwn federation ships without having to worry if it's a trap and there are more fed ships cloaked in the area waiting for them :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[WarpVis]

The cloaking device was originally created for the Star Trek universe as a sci-fi metaphore of asubmarine. Introduced in Star Trek TOS episode Balance of Terror which was very similar to the movie The Bedford Incident.

In any case my point is that as such looking to historic submarine tactics and why they did and did not work would provide incite into tactics and strategies that would allow the cloaking device to be effective.

For example wolfpacks were used with significant effect in WWI and WWII. While there were counter measures such as heavily armed convoys that proved just as effective, I doubt that players entering into PvP zones will form up in convoys every time that they do.

The gist of what I am saying is that there will be advantages and disadvantages to cloaking devices, but I feel that having them available to the appropriate groups helps STO remain true to cannon and will add an extra level of excitement and fun for all involved.

[bitgolem]

We all know cloak was a really cool story effect in the shows and movies. However, the question I pose is will it really be viable in game against other players, considering these facts:

1) EVERYONE will have their shields up in the Nuetral zone(which is where PvP will take place).

2) When cloaking/unlocking, your shields are down.

The only reason cloaked attacks worked in the shows is because the victim of those attacks had their shields down. However, since anyone who goes into the nuetral zone will obviously have their shields up, the only one who will have their shields down will be the person uncloaking. And what that will mean is that as soon as you begin to uncloak, the enemy ship will target you and fire at you before your shields are fully raised. Even if you manage to attack them, your attack will be against their shields, while their attack will be against your hull.

So while cloaking provided an interesting element to combat in the shows, will it really work in game?

First of all, There should be serious energy penalties and increased dilithium crystal wear from running with your shields up. So people aren't doing it unless there's an apparent threat.
Second, who said PVP would take place in the Neutral Zone?
Third, try pretending this is WoW. Cryptic is far more imagininative in their PvP setups.

[Hepipud]

The cloak should be an important secundary weapon.
The shields should drop when the ship is cloaked to 100% and should be reassambled while decloaking since the power of the cloak can be used for shields now.

A cool feature would be to fire disruptors / torpedos while you are cloaked like in Star Trek VI and Star Trek X.
Both, the Klingons and the Romluans / Remans have this kind of technology. This would be alot of fun fighting someone who cannot be seen.

Of course the targeting system should be done like "I have a cursor and where the cursor is I fire to" to get funny battles like in Star Trek X when the Enterprise fought the Scimitar.

~~~~Lord Hepipud~~~~

[Deltab]

You know whats funny? I've been reading this forum thread for a while, and i must say from all your comments, i can only see one view point: "The Federation Ship's View Point". I mean i haven't even heard of the what happens if Klingons went against the Romulans on their borders view. I mean wouldn't that be a kick in the ass if your BoP came to attack one of the Romulan's BoP? And imagine when both are cloaked prepared to attack each other, imagine the stalemate there. But the thing i am trying to say is off topic, it is kinda seeming that your view points on the defender ship is more likely it is a Federation ship instead of another cloakable civilization's ship.

Anyway on topic, i believe having cloaking systems would make pvp more fun, since i can't say how many times i been in a Battleground in WoW and not been saped or killed by a rouge, so being a ship in neutral zone and being attacked by a cloaked enemy wouldn't be that bad, i mean even if you have shields up and all. I mean isn't the cloak suppose to give the attacker an advantage of being able to sneak up to the enemy, and not be seen, to a point? Plus added to that the neutral zone is like a battleground from any pvp game, where the player/defender, would expect to be getting jumped. I know now i'm getting a little complicated with my point, which is that, cloaking is suppose to be another option tactic for anyone, so having it would be quite nice for pvping. Cloaking is kind of like a weapon for people who prefer quick hit and run tactics. After all its not the weapon that determines the victor in battle but the soldier, for even if your opponent has the best weapon there is, if he doesn't know how to use it, than he's a sitting duck with a really big paper weight. (i know i might get criticized for w/e i am saying but the point is in the hands of skilled player, a cloak can be more devastating than even the Scrimtar's radiation weapon)

The thing is the devs said it will only be the Klingons and Feds that come out at first. They also said that the Feds may get cloaking devices, but they will be hindered or less effective.(I forgot the exact wording). But other than that i agree. I think cloak will be a nice advantage, but it won't end all be all either way. It will likely give a surpise or a free shot, but after that it will likely be a pretty balanced fight.

The real problem that I have seen is that the Klingons could move in "hunter" packs aka "Gank squads" where the Feds will have to fight in a more defencive manor.

[cocoa-jin]

The cloaking device was originally created for the Star Trek universe as a sci-fi metaphore of asubmarine. Introduced in Star Trek TOS episode Balance of Terror which was very similar to the movie The Bedford Incident.

In any case my point is that as such looking to historic submarine tactics and why they did and did not work would provide incite into tactics and strategies that would allow the cloaking device to be effective.

For example wolfpacks were used with significant effect in WWI and WWII. While there were counter measures such as heavily armed convoys that proved just as effective, I doubt that players entering into PvP zones will form up in convoys every time that they do.

The gist of what I am saying is that there will be advantages and disadvantages to cloaking devices, but I feel that having them available to the appropriate groups helps STO remain true to cannon and will add an extra level of excitement and fun for all involved.

The submarine analogy is right on. The more you know about general naval relationships, the better informed you are to create tactics in Star Trek.

[cocoa-jin]

Battleshipd of WW2 had most of their armament forward, so while they could fire to the rear they couldnt fire with ALL their guns which adds up to an advantage. A classic example is ''crossing the T''
your ships Theirs
l
l --------------
l

All your guns are brought to bear while only the enemies rear guns can fire at you, the last time this was accomplished was at the battle of midway btw =D

They couldnt fire all their guns forward either :)

But certainly the weapon lay outs of ships changed from Pre-WWI to WWII. They did provide more forward firing ability. Because the mains could swivel you had the option of using the old Crossing the T tactic, but crossing the T was more out of necessity back in the day because most of the guns were mounted port and starboard with limited forwad firing arcs.

Some might argue that the inclusion of radar in firing of the main guns made crossing the T dangerous as it left a large cross section to get a radar echo ofrom and to hit. So head on(or even better a slight quartering head on so you could get the rear guns in play) enagements line a breast became better tactics, with a turn to line up head to tail while crossing the T at your best effective range(perfect tactics for swiveling main guns).

[Reinkaos]

First of all, There should be serious energy penalties and increased dilithium crystal wear from running with your shields up. So people aren't doing it unless there's an apparent threat. Totally agree.

Second, who said PVP would take place in the Neutral Zone? Cryptic. http://www.startrekonline.com/faq

Will there be PvP, PvE and RP rule set servers?
There will not be separate servers for PvP and PvE rulesets. Open PvP will be restricted to designated sectors of space (far-off reaches of unclaimed territory). Consensual PvP and competitive PvE will occur between the realm borders (the Neutral Zone), where players will be competing over territory and resources with the option to PvP.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

First of all, There should be serious energy penalties and increased dilithium crystal wear from running with your shields up.

No more so than having your cloaking device engaged. So that means that if I am flying around in the Nuetral Zone with my shields raised, I would be "burning" the same amount of resources that you would if you are flying around with a cloaking device active.

Third, try pretending this is WoW.

No thank you. Anyone who is interested in playing WoW should do just that, not demand that every game made from now on copy it.

[arakkis]

Ships will probably fly around at yellow alert while in the Neutral Zone, not red alert. Yellow alert means your shields are raised, but your weapons are off.

[Deltab]

No thank you. Anyone who is interested in playing WoW should do just that, not demand that every game made from now on copy it.

His point was that if you played it, you would see a cloaked enemy is absolutly leathal. Infact in most pvp, rogues were able to turn a battle(unless they were going agianst warriors but thats their main enemy). You have to take into account that this is the point that wow rogues and STO would be different. So in this instance a Warrior would be able to cloak as well.

The thing is, no one would be able to react fast enough in game. I also want to note, that there are plently of star trek games where ships cloak and decloak. The one I'm thinking of is Bridge commander. It was possible to so some damage to a ship that was decloaking, but not very much by the time their shields were up. In most instances the cloaked ship will get its shots off and raise shields in time. The only time you could really do damamge is in a 1v1 and you are more than sure you will be attacked in the next 30 secs. However, that doesn't take into account lag etc.

Lastly remember, this is a game. The Devs will make it work

[Lord_Xomic]

No, it wouldn't, as the person in the neutral zone wouldn't have a clue when they would be attacked, and it does seem likely that you will not be able to have shields or weapons up 100% of the time. An undetected cloaked ship still has the advantage if it's patient and waits for its target to become vulnerable.

Yeah, and you haven't a damn clue when someone could attack you in Low/null sec in EVE Online, that didn't stop people from A) not taking slow ships into low sec, and B) always siting aligned with a star gate/planet, so at a moment's notice they could escape. Cloaking ships are very nearly meaningless in the game and are only good for scouting, or ambushes, with most of them not powerful enough to lay that much smack down anyways.

It's fine to say that your ship would have finite shield resources, but if you make them too limited to loose your shield in the middle of extended battles, and if they're too unlimited, people really will just fly around with their shields up all the time. Unless decloaked ships get s special bonus to their weapons in the seconds after decloaking, they're going to be useless.

Further more, this debate about whether or not klingon ships should have armor is pointless; for the most part cloaking ships use their cloaks AS shields, typically decloaking and recloaking before the other ship can fire.

[Lord_Xomic]

His point was that if you played it, you would see a cloaked enemy is absolutly leathal. Infact in most pvp, rogues were able to turn a battle(unless they were going agianst warriors but thats their main enemy). You have to take into account that this is the point that wow rogues and STO would be different. So in this instance a Warrior would be able to cloak as well.

The thing is, no one would be able to react fast enough in game. I also want to note, that there are plently of star trek games where ships cloak and decloak. The one I'm thinking of is Bridge commander. It was possible to so some damage to a ship that was decloaking, but not very much by the time their shields were up. In most instances the cloaked ship will get its shots off and raise shields in time. The only time you could really do damamge is in a 1v1 and you are more than sure you will be attacked in the next 30 secs. However, that doesn't take into account lag etc.

Lastly remember, this is a game. The Devs will make it work

Yeah, and in CoV a stalker could do a great deal of damage...the problem is that this 'great deal of damage' is based around a critical hit bonus that is granted to the class after decloaking, which means the effectiveness is totally artificial.

[dh8d1]

How about this idea:

A rule in the game that you can't have shields up unless the mission you're on calls for it or unless you have an enemy ship on scanners.

Does that work?

[Burchenall]

How about this idea:

A rule in the game that you can't have shields up unless the mission you're on calls for it or unless you have an enemy ship on scanners.

Does that work?

Like this? without explanation? Like "you can't have your shields up 'cause we want"?
And how about going cloaked everywhere? It has to use more power to be cloaked all the time than having your shields up...

[KashikoiBaka]

My plan to fight cloaked ships has always been to mass produce large quantities of Flour torpedoes and detonate them whenever I feel suspicious or just want to make my crew think I am a little of the crazy.

[dh8d1]

Like this? without explanation? Like "you can't have your shields up 'cause we want"?

Think of it this way: Why have your shields up if no enemy ships are on your scanner?
don't say "because we're in the neutral zone" either, because you know that on the show even in the neutral zone, all the canon ships didn't just raises shields as soon as they crossed the neutral zone border.


And how about going cloaked everywhere? It has to use more power to be cloaked all the time than having your shields up...
I disagree. Having shields up takes up quite a bit of energy also, and it should take up just as much as cloaking.

[Burchenall]

Having shields up takes up quite a bit of energy also, and it should take up just as much as cloaking.

So let's discuss the 'have the shields raised everywhere' with 'going cloaked everywhere' questions together and not as if they were different.

BTW: in the shows they do some 'strange things' (I don't know how to write it :p) in order to fit the story or to have an interesting episode...

[Kinjiru]

So let's discuss the 'have the shields raised everywhere' with 'going cloaked everywhere' questions together and not as if they were different.

BTW: in the shows they do some 'strange things' (I don't know how to write it :p) in order to fit the story or to have an interesting episode...

Well, shields, weapons and cloaks all take certain (variable) amounts of power. This power is provided by your warp core. If you have your shields up and weapons charged all of the time, then you have less engine power to go to the other systems on your ship. Shield power can be rerouted from (according to canon) weapons, life support, engines, basically all ship's systems, which logically means that to operate these systems efficiently, in normal conditions a certain amount of warp power must be going to them, or you wouldn't have the power to divert in the first place.

The same applies to a cloak, but it requires enough energy that the shields must be down, and weapons be uncharged. To charge the weapons and raise shields takes time. Maybe seconds, perhaps up to a minute, so that cloaked ships will have a slight gap from the time they decloak to the time they can raise shields and fire weapons.

Also, we've seen many examples of cloaked ships being detected, but in most cases, it's a general statement: "There's a cloaked ship nearby," but they almost never actually get an exact target, and all of the shots fired are blind, in the general vicinity of where the cloaked ship might be, or where the tactical officer guesses it is.

[KashikoiBaka]

Well, shields, weapons and cloaks all take certain (variable) amounts of power. This power is provided by your warp core. If you have your shields up and weapons charged all of the time, then you have less engine power to go to the other systems on your ship. Shield power can be rerouted from (according to canon) weapons, life support, engines, basically all ship's systems, which logically means that to operate these systems efficiently, in normal conditions a certain amount of warp power must be going to them, or you wouldn't have the power to divert in the first place.

The same applies to a cloak, but it requires enough energy that the shields must be down, and weapons be uncharged. To charge the weapons and raise shields takes time. Maybe seconds, perhaps up to a minute, so that cloaked ships will have a slight gap from the time they decloak to the time they can raise shields and fire weapons.

Also, we've seen many examples of cloaked ships being detected, but in most cases, it's a general statement: "There's a cloaked ship nearby," but they almost never actually get an exact target, and all of the shots fired are blind, in the general vicinity of where the cloaked ship might be, or where the tactical officer guesses it is.

At least when it came to the phaser system once charged you do not need to add more power into the system unless discharged right? If that is the case you could technically run around with your weapons charged but it may not be good for your systems.

[Ballping]

At least when it came to the phaser system once charged you do not need to add more power into the system unless discharged right? If that is the case you could technically run around with your weapons charged but it may not be good for your systems.

Phaser's are energy weapons. As such they fire a burst of energy from a power source, in this case, the warp core. Energy, given its nature can not be stored for long periods of time. Atleast not in the amounts that your talking about for Phazer burst. (Phazer's practically speaking are Energy Bursts in the amount of a Percentage of the total warp core power), that energy must be released in one way or another, otherwise it would blow up on you, its like hooking up a AA battery to a car Battery, sure the AA battery can draw energy off of the car battery, but you better do something with that Battery real quick or you're gonna have some serious acid burns on your hands.

[Kinjiru]

At least when it came to the phaser system once charged you do not need to add more power into the system unless discharged right? If that is the case you could technically run around with your weapons charged but it may not be good for your systems.

I'm positive that I've heard them (in all of the series) say to divert power to the weapons almost as much as I've heard them say to divert power to shields.

I think for a game play mechanic, we'll see a certain amount of power per phaser bank is "charged", read as "ready to fire" but once fired, each bank will have to recharge again, if only to prevent a constant, never ending phaser "stream". Shorter bursts or lower power shots will probably require less time, longer or higher power bursts will probably deplete the charged energy faster. Just speculation at this point, but logical.

[Ayradyss]

I thought the devs had already stated in some interview or Q&A or whatnot that maintaining a high alert status (IE, keepiing your shields up all the time) would cause a drain on your ship's efficiency due to wearing out the crew and such. (I don't know where it is to quote or link it, but I'm pretty sure it's out there.)

It's also my understanding, from various dev posts, that ships will likely be limited by a power-allocation scheme. All critical systems will require energy, and you only have a finite amount of energy available at any given moment. What I am thinking, given the canon and the 'oddities' of canon (this or that ship firing while cloaked, or seeming to have some shields while cloaked), is that a cloak will probably take a very high percentage of a ship's power allocation.

Say it takes 85% (just pulling a figure out of thin air -- no idea of the actual figure) of your ship's energy to maintain a cloak. So you can split the remaining 15% up however you please between propulsion, weapons, shields, etc. Given that, you may be able to put up a weak bit of shielding over one arc for a brief time. You may be able to fire a shot or two, but likely not ones that will really do much, unless your target is already in dire straits. Thus while it isn't literally -impossible- to cloak and fire or cloak and shield, it's highly -impractical.- There may still be times, when the circumstances are right, that such tactics could prove useful. The vast majority of the time, however, dropping cloak to use other major systems will be the way of things.

All in all, I feel that, to date, the ways we've seen stealth used in other games is but a little bit of what it can be in STO. My reasoning is that generally, all other MMOs that I know of have pretty straight-forward, immediate-action combat. If the devs really succeed in making starship combat the chesslike, strategic move-and-countermove sort of thing we've heard of, then cloaking becomes a much larger asset. You may know that the game is on and your opponent is going to be out there, but coming up with a winning strategy when you can't see all the pieces will still be quite a challenge.

[dh8d1]

So let's discuss the 'have the shields raised everywhere' with 'going cloaked everywhere' questions together and not as if they were different.

You're absolutely right.
Klingon ships may or may not have longer range scanners than their federation counterparts.

I'd say if the klingon ship does have longer range scanners, knowing a federation ships location and heading before cloaking would be an excellent strategy. After that they'll just assume its going to be there and get to it if the federation ship doesn't change course.

If the klingon ship does NOT, and a federation ship spots IT first, they try to get within phaser range but the klingon ship does detect the federation ship beforehand. It can cloak to run away, or to sit and hide until the federation ship has to lower shields for some reason or another. (maybe there's a mission on a neutral zone planet and the federation ship has to beam someone over?)

Both are viable options which fit in the "shields/cloaks shouldn't run all the time" side of the discussion.

Does that make sense?

[Laito]

Also consider the possibility of spying. Cloak works wonderfully going into enemy territory and scouting out areas and avenues of attack.

[dh8d1]

Also consider the possibility of spying. Cloak works wonderfully going into enemy territory and scouting out areas and avenues of attack.

So does having a federation ship which has longer range scanners than any klingon ship. ;-)

[callsign11b]

I think if the game is designed well a cloaking ship can be dangerous. as one post said run shields as soon as your in the nutral zone. I imagin they set it up that power requirements to run shields always on will deprive other systems of power. :eek:
In shows you see that when a fed ship goes to red alert there's a change it power prorities shields weapons, forcefields, ect. At the same time Secondary systems go into standbye mode.
So what ever mission or assiment that took you there will require you to use those secondary systems unless your just there for a pvp slugfest.
For blance play I think a post got it right as new fed sensor tech comes online for players who level up older cloak tech are easier to detect farther away.
I just hope they don't set it up that they weaking the cloak tech so its more cosmedic than actually usefull.
:(

[The.Grand.Nagus]

I think if the game is designed well a cloaking ship can be dangerous. as one post said run shields as soon as your in the nutral zone. I imagin they set it up that power requirements to run shields always on will deprive other systems of power. :eek:
In shows you see that when a fed ship goes to red alert there's a change it power prorities shields weapons, forcefields, ect. At the same time Secondary systems go into standbye mode.
So what ever mission or assiment that took you there will require you to use those secondary systems unless your just there for a pvp slugfest.
For blance play I think a post got it right as new fed sensor tech comes online for players who level up older cloak tech are easier to detect farther away.
I just hope they don't set it up that they weaking the cloak tech so its more cosmedic than actually usefull.
:(

In regards to the power requirements you mentioned, you are correct. However, having your cloaking device active should be equaly draining on your power as having your shields up, so in a situation where one ship is cloaked and another has his shields up, it will still be like the situation described in the OP.

[Stormnet]

There has to be some penalty for cloaking in the game, otherwise there is an unfair advantage.

I agree with one of the posters that if your cloaked and in wait, you must uncloak then fire catching perhaps the other target off guard. In that few seconds you could raise your shields. But to be cloaked and firing and your opponent having no way to conteract the cloak you would lose every time.

Not very fun for the Fed players...

[OrabIbo]

I think the fun comes in trying to figure out where your target will pop up next. It's an exercise in paranoia for sure! lol

I think allowing ways to track cloaks but not actually know their immeadiate or exact location. would be intriguing. You could use detective work to fine a cloaked ship. Also depending on proximity, environment, sensor strength detecting the exact location of a cloaked ship should increase or decrease.

Such as, the closer to the ship you are the more likely you can detect the ship. Detection of a cloaked ship can be done by ion trails and brief glimpses of the ships location. These glimpses, lets say happen every 10-15 secs. As you get closer they become more frequent.

Increasing your shield strength is one way to increase their frequency.

I pose one limitation on Federation ships. Maybe this is unjust, but... I think sensors should be capable of tracking one thing at a time. either track ion trails or look for cloaked ships. Either one or the other. This would provide a bit more challenge in finding them.

There are ways to hide to. if using your environment you can use interference form. suns, nebulas, and planets atmosphere, including other spatial phenonmenon that can hide/ mask your cloak signature making it more difficult to detect.

But there can be disadvantages as well, if you move in an atmosphere with no shieilds while cloaked, You will reveal your ship by friction. A suns radiation while cloaked can kill you crew. and nebulas may contain lighting that can damage your ship or play havoc with your sensors. So there is some risk as well.

This combination I think would make for a dynamic and interesting cloak in game. AS well as add to the games strategic value. Maybe it borders on simulation to much. but I would find this type of starship combat very engaging to play.

[Deltab]

I think the fun comes in trying to figure out where your target will pop up next. It's an exercise in paranoia for sure! lol

I think allowing ways to track cloaks but not actually know their immeadiate or exact location. would be intriguing. You could use detective work to fine a cloaked ship. Also depending on proximity, environment, sensor strength detecting the exact location of a cloaked ship should increase or decrease.

Such as, the closer to the ship you are the more likely you can detect the ship. Detection of a cloaked ship can be done by ion trails and brief glimpses of the ships location. These glimpses, lets say happen every 10-15 secs. As you get closer they become more frequent.

Increasing your shield strength is one way to increase their frequency.

I pose one limitation on Federation ships. Maybe this is unjust, but... I think sensors should be capable of tracking one thing at a time. either track ion trails or look for cloaked ships. Either one or the other. This would provide a bit more challenge in finding them.

There are ways to hide to. if using your environment you can use interference form. suns, nebulas, and planets atmosphere, including other spatial phenonmenon that can hide/ mask your cloak signature making it more difficult to detect.

But there can be disadvantages as well, if you move in an atmosphere with no shieilds while cloaked, You will reveal your ship by friction. A suns radiation while cloaked can kill you crew. and nebulas may contain lighting that can damage your ship or play havoc with your sensors. So there is some risk as well.

This combination I think would make for a dynamic and interesting cloak in game. AS well as add to the games strategic value. Maybe it borders on simulation to much. but I would find this type of starship combat very engaging to play.

Very good ideas. Also this gives an important usage of science ships. To help close in on a cloaked ships location. Or if the science ships sensors are strong enough and the cloaked ships cloak isn't as strong or the things you listed, could all help the science ship find the cloaked ship. In this case the Science ship should show to all other ships in its task force the cloaked ship.

[OrabIbo]

Very good ideas. Also this gives an important usage of science ships. To help close in on a cloaked ships location. Or if the science ships sensors are strong enough and the cloaked ships cloak isn't as strong or the things you listed, could all help the science ship find the cloaked ship. In this case the Science ship should show to all other ships in its task force the cloaked ship.

Science ships eh? I like!
Gives me the idea of science ans well as combat ships all using their sensors together to create a sensor grid. Casting a wider detection area.

And I see each ship having a sort of bubble around them of their sensor range. Possibly having a focus area where you concentrate most of your sensor strength on increasing detection.

These sensor areas, when ships are huddled close together will create areas where the sensors overlap. thus increasing the sensor strength in the sensor grid.

And, an added benefit of a science ship would have wider and stronger sensors. Kinda like a scout ship of sorts :) Again cast out my ideas as you see fit. I don't see all of this complexity making it into the game. I'm just throwing out ideas that I would make cloaking compelling to me.

[callsign11b]

I don't believe in the cloak ship able to fire while cloaked your right that will be unbalanced game.
But I don't believe every ship should see a cloaked ship not even for one second.

If a claok tech is = to or better than the sensors being used to detect it it SHOULD NOT BE SEEN.
If the cloak tech is lower than the sensors being used to detect it then its degrees of detection a 1 point shift in sensors favor you know there is a cloaked ship out there.
a 2 point shift the same way you start getting intermited contact.
a 3 point shift better contact reports.
a 10 point shift you can target phasers on a cloaked ship.
you know then you throw in how close he is to you or if there's different materials that decrease sensors or a material that actually sticks to the hull gives you a better sensor reading.
bla bla bla you see what i mean?

In canon cloaks were used sneak amd peak or try to get in close to get a first strike on a unwary opponite.
we all know ship to ship cruiser to cruiser in a slug fest Fed's would win 9 out of 10 times.
feds had better warp engine, better shields, more powerfull weapons with longer ranges.
Klingons tried to blance it out with cloaking and more armour on there ships to take a hit or two before there shields come on when a first strike failed.

The real trick is when they bring the romulans race online, canon before tng romulan ships are weaker than fed TNG and after romulan warbird ships are equal and add a cloaking device.
add the remias warship starbase that moves....:eek:

[USS_Enduring_Vengence]

but, even if they were the enemy, the romulans would be weakened by the turbulent Political state they were in post-genesis, and the reprecusions of the ensueing civil war...
and your assuming that the Romulans would be at war with The Federation too, so any treaty binding them will be disolved, that means...

cloaks for the federation...
since a treaty with the romulans kept the feds from develouping cloaking tech.

[callsign11b]

true just saying one on one ship the romulans now seem to holding the bigger gun even if they don't have many of them.
that race will be a real threat to both fed and klingon forces when they bring it online.

[OrabIbo]

I don't believe in the cloak ship able to fire while cloaked your right that will be unbalanced game.
But I don't believe every ship should see a cloaked ship not even for one second.

If a claok tech is = to or better than the sensors being used to detect it it SHOULD NOT BE SEEN.
If the cloak tech is lower than the sensors being used to detect it then its degrees of detection a 1 point shift in sensors favor you know there is a cloaked ship out there.
a 2 point shift the same way you start getting intermited contact.
a 3 point shift better contact reports.
a 10 point shift you can target phasers on a cloaked ship.
you know then you throw in how close he is to you or if there's different materials that decrease sensors or a material that actually sticks to the hull gives you a better sensor reading.
bla bla bla you see what i mean?

This is exactly what I was talking about. Detection is based on proximity and sensor strength as well as environmental conditions.
Never said that they should be seen right away. But a science officer or sensors should notice that there are intermittant readings showing up where nothing can be seen visually. Should be a instant warning on a cloaked ship nearby. And Thats if you even catch the intermittant readings.

[callsign11b]

Like you said depends on alot of factors of game play.
but say i have klingon ship that cloaks and i've upgrade that cloak over the run of the game.
I don't think a player just starting out with a stock frigate no upgrades should even know i'm around until I decloak.
but for npc and player ships equally mached ships sensors to cloak yea when they get close you by see a disruption or radation spike or communications interference like in shearch for spock when the grism hears interference and trys to localise it.
That I can see/
but radar scope or science office theres a cloaked ship out there the the fed ship will raise shields and the klingon ship loses the surprise factor.

[OrabIbo]

I thought that was already understood. That if you don't have the skills to detect a cloak then it wouldn't register at all.

I do wonder though, after the game matures and most everybody has the same high skills to detect and cloak. Where does the surprise factor come in there?

I can see a option on sensors to detect for cloaked ships. And it will do just that. But it's not a standard scan you preform.

In fact to make it not viable to just scan for cloaked ships in every system you come into. You can make a higher energy requirement for a detect cloak scan. (I'm sure there is a better name out there, I'm just not thinking of it) Therefore scanning repeated for cloaked ships come at a cost to the ship. OR they can put a cool down timer on it. But since this is a sci-fi MMO I prefer there to be a tangible reason on WHY you can't scan again. And not the answer being. Just because! :P

But this will make ppl only do scans for cloaked ships when they suspect a cloaked ship to be about. And not do it every time they enter a system. As doing so would severely deplete their energy reserves making them already at a disadvantage at the start of combat with a cloaked ship when found. I'm sure there is a better way to limit it on a ship besides an energy penalty. But it's the first thing that I came up with.

Then during combat, cloak is still viable as you won't be able to pin point it's location. You definately can't target the ship because the computer can't tell where it is, except for interrmitant instances where it can track it.
Other wise manual control will be needed to predict where it's heading.
or methods to find a cloaked ship will be needed, like randomly shooting in all direction with low intensity phaser bursts till a hit is detected.

It's elaborate for sure! But to make this game a tactical experience I think ppl can appreciate it.

[callsign11b]

yea it will be interesting how they deal with this.
alot of game mechanics come into play for a simple tech.