Ranks in STO, what should you be able to do?

[Sir_Cedric]

Ok it's a given we will command ships in STO, BUT it doesn't mean you will be a Captain rank at the sametime.

So............

No matter what side you pick, Federation or Klingon, and later on Romulan, Dominion, Cardassin or whoever is added in expansions. At each level of rank, what do you see getting or being about to do with that rank you hold?

Examples of both elisted and officer Federation ranks:

Enlisted ranks
master chief petty officer
senior chief petty officer
chief petty officer
petty officers (specialists 1st, 2nd and 3rd class):
sensor analyst
technician
yeoman
crewman (1st, 2nd and 3rd class)

Officer ranks
Cadet* - Academy rank only (Cadet Fourth Class, Cadet Third Class, Cadet Second Class)

Ensign
Lieutenant junior grade
Lieutenant
Lieutenant commander
Commander
Captain
Commodore (aka rear admiral, lower half)
Rear admiral (upper half)
Vice admiral
Admiral
Fleet admiral

Now from what CS is saying we will command ships, so I don't see enlisted being added in at launch, but there is hope of it after launch. Remember Miles O'Brien was an enlisted person, not an officer rank on DS9.

Anyway, with each rank we gain, what do you see happening for your guy in the game? IMO I believe we will start off in ships like the Delta Flyer, or run a bouts as Ensigns. And once we gain haigh ranks, we will have different ships out up to us, and more crews to pick from. Who would you pick as your crew mate on the Flyer? Maybe you can pick you 1st NPC to help crew with you, and they stick with you until you get up to captain. So lets hear how you see things happening. This is only a guess from our point of view. So lets hear what you see happening. A big what if.

[thefreshjedi]

Ok it's a given we will command ships in STO, BUT it doesn't mean you will be a Captain rank at the sametime...

...A big what if.

Cedric,

I like your model suggestions could you repost this in my original thread: Ranks vs. Leveling, a Solution? (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=9179)

I would like to add feedback, and I think your model here would be a great example of what I'm trying to achieve in my thread?

-Avery

[Varrangian]

I see rank bringing two things. First is what has already been mentioned by Jack, larger ships and larger crews. The second thing is what is implied by this statement - more responsibility. I see that being reflected in the types of missions that are offered to us.

As for the acquisition of I'd like to think we start (meaning after the tutorial) on something like a PT or Swift Boat. These were commanded by Lt. JG's when in use, so that fits Jack's comment that we probably won't start as Ensign. They also had crews from about 8-14 men. This number is important because it would include both "bridge crew" and general crew.

As we progress I see us getting up to 8-11 Bridge crew and 1400 "general crew". I would like to think that Moral will have to play a role in the general crew. Not that they will mutiny, but that their performance can be increased by proper care to their needs. This is a good function because it means we actually have to do more than, fly here, shoot this, beam down to this planet.

[Sir_Cedric]

Sure I can repost it, but I must admit I missed your posting on the same topic. :D

[Varrangian]

Sure I can repost it, but I must admit I missed your posting on the same topic. :D

Honestly I thought your post was a completely different topic. Your post is about what "comes" with rank and his post is about the mechanics of achieving ranks.

[babanathie]

In addition, his title seems to be biased for a level based system, and yours is more neutral in that regards (which can be sensitive to us skill-based fans). I think you should keep this thread alive. :)

[bobh]

As one progresses in ranks, I can envision a few perks:


Prestege
Access to better initial Bridge/General Crew before taining
Higher Security Access (Logs, Missions, Fed/Klingon Databases)
Equipment (Ship Refit, Personal)
Larger Degree of Ship Mods (Internal/External)
Player Home!
Higher Skill Potential


I'm sure there are lots more!

[Sir_Cedric]

Well how can we get away from level a based system?

I for one would like to see you gain prestige as you do missions. If you do a save the world type of mission, you gain a lot more prestige vs just going on patrol.

I think we all can agree WE DO NOT WANT A GRINDING FEST, meaning killing 100 of these, collect 1000 of those, and here are you pieces of worthless junk for completing the grind mission.

Where is the fun with something like that?

[Galv]

Well how can we get away from level a based system?

I for one would like to see you gain prestige as you do missions. If you do a safe the world type of mission, you gain a lot more prestige vs just going on patrol.

I think we all can agree WE DO NOT WANT A GRINDING FEST, meaning killing 100 of these, collect 1000 of those, and here are you pieces of worthless junk for completing the grind mission.

Where is the fun with something like that?

Yes i totally agree, too many mmo's do the same thing, i'm really hoping Cryptic will try something different with STO.

I think your idea of gaining rank from mission is great, you could get evaluated after each mission aswell as your bridge crew. I'd like to earn skill points from using those skills, whether it be tactical, diplomacy or sceince/engineering.

[bobh]

The OP wasn't discussing a level system.

It's a given players will progress in military ranks, whether Cryptic installs a level mechanic or a skill mechanic or whatever.

The question is what would the benefits/perks, if any, of each rank be?

[Varrangian]

Well how can we get away from level a based system?

I for one would like to see you gain prestige as you do missions. If you do a safe the world type of mission, you gain a lot more prestige vs just going on patrol.

I think we all can agree WE DO NOT WANT A GRINDING FEST, meaning killing 100 of these, collect 1000 of those, and here are you pieces of worthless junk for completing the grind mission.

Where is the fun with something like that?

The system I have in mind is skills based, but it a multi-faceted. By this I mean it will be based on several smaller systems interwoven. The first thing would be to make some skills use based (hand phaser use, tricorder use, maybe transporter use, "stealth" i.e. sneaking around, etc...

Then there would be the less tangible skills grouped in skill trees.

Science
- Medical
- Engineering
- Applied theory

Operations
- Piloting
- Navigation
- Systems

Tactical
- Space combat (needs a better name)
- Ground combat (ditto)
- Security

Every time you complete a mission you would gain skill points to "buy" skills in these areas. As you earn X skill points you are given Y command points.

Command points are used in a the command skill tree that ever player character/avatar have access to.

Command
- Leadership
- Tactics
- Diplomacy

After you have earned and spent Z number of command points you are put up for promotion. The promotion itself is probably given to you upon the completion of a special "meta" mission.

Keep in mind that you'll also be able to gain skills and ranks for your bridge crew as well. So the "grind" would be minimized because you would always be getting rewards and making choices about your character and your crew. Those rewards just wouldn't be based on a traditional level.

[Galv]

The system I have in mind is skills based, but it a multi-faceted. By this I mean it will be based on several smaller systems interwoven. The first thing would be to make some skills use based (hand phaser use, tricorder use, maybe transporter use, "stealth" i.e. sneaking around, etc...

Then there would be the less tangible skills grouped in skill trees.

Science
- Medical
- Engineering
- Applied theory

Operations
- Piloting
- Navigation
- Systems

Tactical
- Space combat (needs a better name)
- Ground combat (ditto)
- Security

Every time you complete a mission you would gain skill points to "buy" skills in these areas. As you earn X skill points you are given Y command points.

Command points are used in a the command skill tree that ever player character/avatar have access to.

Command
- Leadership
- Tactics
- Diplomacy

After you have earned and spent Z number of command points you are put up for promotion. The promotion itself is probably given to you upon the completion of a special "meta" mission.

Keep in mind that you'll also be able to gain skills and ranks for your bridge crew as well. So the "grind" would be minimized because you would always be getting rewards and making choices about your character and your crew. Those rewards just wouldn't be based on a traditional level.

Yes this would be perfect. Far better than the other systems mentioned on these forums get us away form having levels and grinding, i really do love the idea of spending skill points on my captain and bridge crew, i can shape the into the crew i want. Plus it's more Star Trek to me, i don't want to see anyone getting to lev 90 captain just because they've been grinding near the neutral zone.

[Sir_Cedric]

Guys lets remember on thing ok, even an esign can command a ship, yes it's at the shuttle level, but it's still a command. An ensign can still take a few crewmen with them, after all the crewmen still are at a lower rank, and the ensign can be assigned over them to handle a few simple missions. After you leave the Academy, IMO this would be a good way to get you up to speed in the game, and you can get a feel of the lay of the land or space in this example. How you handle command with a hand full of crewmen, might show Starfleet what type of ship you should get next.

Everything in STO should be based on a pass fail system.

Here is an example of what I am talking about.

Lets say we start off as Ensign, with a few people getting Lieutenant junior grade, based of what you do in the academy.
On your 1st command you are given a Run a bout to use, and assigned 3 crewmen to travel with you. Starfleet gives you a few survey missions to do, and you set off to do them. Maybe with one of the missions you came across a new pirate base, and a new mission could be to investgate it, with a bonus mission to find a way to destroy it. You only having a Run a Bout, you will have to figure out what to do, and your crewmen are there to help you.

Now the pass and fail could be as follows:

1. How well you take readings on the survey mission
2. Did you finish everything Starfleet needed from the survey mission
3. Were you seen at the pirate base
4. Did you lose any crewmen while looking for a way to destroy the base
5. Was the base destroyed

If you complete all the different steps, you will max your standing with Starfleet, but if you miss a step somewhere, of fail at something, then you don't get as high of a score card from the mission.

In the end when it's time to pick a new ship, maybe from how well you did as an Ensign you will have more ships to pick from as the Lieutenant junior grade. Meaning.....

If you did about average you can get a Oberth Class or Norway Class to pick from.

If below average you only get the Oberth Class

If above average you get Oberth Class, Norway Class or Miranda Class

And if you are on a legendary standing, you can get the top for you class, maybe something like the Defiant Class.

But you get what I am trying to say on this topic.

Rank should bring with it certain responsiblities, and if you add the pass/ fail system in the game, you might make it a little more of a challenge.

[Varrangian]

Guys lets remember on thing ok, even an esign can command a ship, yes it's at the shuttle level, but it's still a command. An ensign can still take a few crewmen with them, after all the crewmen still are at a lower rank, and the ensign can be assigned over them to handle a few simple missions. After you leave the Academy, IMO this would be a good way to get you up to speed in the game, and you can get a feel of the lay of the land or space in this example. How you handle command with a hand full of crewmen, might show Starfleet what type of ship you should get next.

Everything in STO should be based on a pass fail system.

Here is an example of what I am talking about.

Lets say we start off as Ensign, with a few people getting Lieutenant junior grade, based of what you do in the academy.
On your 1st command you are given a Run a bout to use, and assigned 3 crewmen to travel with you. Starfleet gives you a few survey missions to do, and you set off to do them. Maybe with one of the missions you came across a new pirate base, and a new mission could be to investgate it, with a bonus mission to find a way to destroy it. You only having a Run a Bout, you will have to figure out what to do, and your crewmen are there to help you.

Now the pass and fail could be as follows:

1. How well you take readings on the survey mission
2. Did you finish everything Starfleet needed from the survey mission
3. Were you seen at the pirate base
4. Did you lose any crewmen while looking for a way to destroy the base
5. Was the base destroyed

If you complete all the different steps, you will max your standing with Starfleet, but if you miss a step somewhere, of fail at something, then you don't get as high of a score card from the mission.

In the end when it's time to pick a new ship, maybe from how well you did as an Ensign you will have more ships to pick from as the Lieutenant junior grade. Meaning.....

If you did about average you can get a Oberth Class or Norway Class to pick from.

If below average you only get the Oberth Class

If above average you get Oberth Class, Norway Class or Miranda Class

And if you are on a legendary standing, you can get the top for you class, maybe something like the Defiant Class.

But you get what I am trying to say on this topic.

Rank should bring with it certain responsiblities, and if you add the pass/ fail system in the game, you might make it a little more of a challenge.


I fully support starting as an Ensign, but Jack has said it is unlikely.

[Sir_Cedric]

I just use Ensign as my example, but you never know, if we show it can work that way, maybe we will see the rank in the game. But no matter what rank we start from, we should have something that doesn't require us to grind out in different areas to get a new rank.

[Galv]

After the mission you get a report from starfleet detailing where you earned whatever skill points?

[Galv]

I think both your ideas could work perfectly together.

[Sir_Cedric]

Something like that Galv, mainly a mission debrifing, and how well or poorly you did on it.

[Silverspar]

The minimum rank to command a starship (full time) is Lt. Commander. I would expect a rank no less than that to be honest. The upper most rank I wouldn't really expect high ranking admirals, that would really make no sense. At best commodore or rear admiral, all depending. After all, most admirals were desk jockeys and that doesn't sound very fun for Star Trek hehe.

[Galv]

Something like that Galv, mainly a mission debrifing, and how well or poorly you did on it.

I'd like that, keep the report in your log too, it would also give it a great learning curve as you'd be able to see where you were going wrong, and what you'd need to improve on. This would also be ideal for hardcore and casual gamers, you could come online for a couple of hours do mission and feel like you were getting somewhere, unlike killing a 100 monsters to get 100k exp for the next lev.

[Varrangian]

The minimum rank to command a starship (full time) is Lt. Commander. I would expect a rank no less than that to be honest. The upper most rank I wouldn't really expect high ranking admirals, that would really make no sense. At best commodore or rear admiral, all depending. After all, most admirals were desk jockeys and that doesn't sound very fun for Star Trek hehe.

I don't see us starting at a "starship" Starfleet has ships roughly equivalent to PT Boats or Swift Boats. Those were commanded by Lt. JG's.

[Sir_Cedric]

Galv that is the one thing I hate about WoW, you have those blasted grind quests. lol

STO needs to stay far far away from anything that grinds. Do a full escort missions, do explore missions, heck Raid a pirate base. Just don't grind anything in STO. It's not fun, and it gets old very very fast.

[Pntwrs]

For me, as long as i dont have to spend 10 hours a day trying to grind rep or items im happy with what ever system they come up with.

[Sir_Cedric]

I agree Varrangian, that's why I am thinking we will see something like the delta flyer, and the Run a Bouts as our 1st ships. I have no problem using them, plus it will give you a chance to get a feel for space flight in game.

[Galv]

Yes there's nothing worse than grinding and it's been over done. There's no reason why it can't be fun and a challenge to reach a rank rather than constantly targeting a mob pressing keys 1,2 or 3 loot, move on.

[Varrangian]

I agree Varrangian, that's why I am thinking we will see something like the delta flyer, and the Run a Bouts as our 1st ships. I have no problem using them, plus it will give you a chance to get a feel for space flight in game.

I have an elaborate post now buried some where "In defense of starting as Ensign" that creates a detailed and extended tutorial that starts at the academy and takes you through the rank of Ensign before receiving you're first "real" command as a Lt. JG. In this I make the argument that once we hit Lt. JG we should get the Erewon class (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Erewon_class). It is four times the size of a runabout, witch would warrant a crew of about 8-10. In my mind that means 1-2 bridge crew members and 5-7 general crew, not including your player avatar.

[dwarner]

The Erewon class is just a personnel transport. Bleah. I'd rather fly a runabout.

[Sir_Cedric]

I still think a ship like the Delta Flyer would make a great 1st ship. You can still have the 1-2 man crew on board that ship.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Delta_Flyer

[Pntwrs]

The only thing worse than spending hours grinding is when they add more content/expansions they add 3x the grinding for rep and items :( :( :(

[Michell]

The only thing worse than spending hours grinding is when they add more content/expansions they add 3x the grinding for rep and items :( :( :(

W.O.W and yes they Phail.

[Galv]

To be honest i'm not bothered what ship i get to start with i'll be happy, probably won't be it for to long anyway.

[Varrangian]

I still think a ship like the Delta Flyer would make a great 1st ship. You can still have the 1-2 man crew on board that ship.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Delta_Flyer

If we start at Ensign a Delta Flyer would be ok. But really by Lt. JG people should be making it clear they are capable of command responsibilities.

[Pntwrs]

Yeah, im sure it will be fun no matter what. Even is we start on a NPC ship for a little bid (very limited time)

[Sir_Cedric]

If we start on a NPC ship, it better have all the decks, and fully working stations. :D

[Pntwrs]

If we start on a NPC ship, it better have all the decks, and fully working stations. :D

Agreed!!!!!

[babanathie]

Well how can we get away from level a based system?

I for one would like to see you gain prestige as you do missions. If you do a save the world type of mission, you gain a lot more prestige vs just going on patrol.

I think we all can agree WE DO NOT WANT A GRINDING FEST, meaning killing 100 of these, collect 1000 of those, and here are you pieces of worthless junk for completing the grind mission.

Where is the fun with something like that?

Basically, the best way to get away from a level based system is to make skill acquisition (Cryptic did state that the game will be skill based) completely seperate from rank acquisition. While rank may end up roughly correlating to a character's skill, it does not necessarily have to correlate depending on the player's "career" decisions.

I can't get more specific than this without purely speculating (the game has not launched yet); however, there are any number of ways that this can be accomplished.