Technology Levels of New Worlds in Star Trek Online

[Flatfingers]

A GENTLE INTRODUCTION TO TECHNOLOGY LEVELS IN STAR TREK ONLINE

Something I brought up back on the old STOnet forums that I haven't seen talked about much here yet is the notion of "technology levels" as a gameplay feature.

As we fly through the galaxy in our mighty starships, we're likely to encounter civilizations at differing stages of technological development. Some will be less advanced than our faction (Federation and Klingon to start), while some are likely to be more advanced.

Should being able to classify the technology levels of the different civilizations we know and discover be part of the gameplay of Star Trek Online?

Classification systems are not foreign to Star Trek. For example, there's the well-known (in the Trekiverse) system for planetary classification (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Planetary_classification) that describes the habitability of planets, in which planets like Earth are described as "Minshara-class" or just "M-class." So why not offer something similar for classifying the level of technological sophistication of the inhabitants of a planet?

Let's say the answer is a tentative "maybe" and consider some possible ways to classify the level of technology of both known and alien civilizations in the Star Trek universe.

A BASIC TECHNOLOGY CLASSIFICATION SYSTEM

The first and most obvious classification (from the Federation point of view, anyway) is whether or not a civilization has made its first faster-than-light journey. In fact, distinguishing between pre-warp and warp-capable civilizations is considered so important to Starfleet that it forms the basis of their Prime Directive. So if the Prime Directive is part of the gameplay of Star Trek Online, then being able to classify a civilization according to the following scheme:

0. Pre-warp
1. Warp-capable

is a minimum requirement.

We could, however, be a bit more creative than that. If exploration is to be a meaningful part of this game, then it's not unreasonable that players ought to be able to study new civilizations in order to properly classify them. Doing so might even provide in-game rewards. (I'd be careful not to take that too far. however. Not every gamer is an Achiever, and not every gamer wants the kinds of accumulable in-game rewards that are valued by Achievers.)

For that to work as interesting gameplay, a more detailed classification system is probably in order. Players would need to spend some time (and perhaps, through their characters, use some kind of Survey skill) to determine the most likely technology level classification code for a newly-encountered civilization.

A DETAILED TECHNOLOGY CLASSIFICATION SYSTEM

The usual way of doing this is to identify key technologies whose widespread adoption within a civilization signals a critical point in that civilization's progress. (Note: Some people dispute whether the development of increasingly advanced technology should always be considered "progress." That's not an unfair concern, but it's outside the scope of this thread which is intended to be a relatively simple look at possible gameplay in an MMORPG. I'm not against exploring the notion of other ways of defining "progress," but I'd prefer to wait on that until we've considered the simple version of this question first.)

So here's a starter suggestion for a short list of technological advances that could serve to define the level of development of civilizations in Star Trek Online:

0. pre-civilization (no sentient lifeforms)
1. simple hand tools
2. machine tools
3. nuclear power
4. networked computers
5. warp drive
6. matter/energy conversion
7. subspace power
8. intergalactic travel
9. non-corporeal sentience

For purposes of MMORPG gameplay, we might even want to consider a more detailed classification system:

0. pre-civilization (no sentient lifeforms)
1. fire/wheel
2. roads
3. printing press
4. combustion engine
5. nuclear power
6. networked computers
7. fusion power
8. warp drive
9. antimatter power
A. matter/energy conversion
B. sentient programs (incl. androids)
C. subspace power
D. Dyson spheres
E. intergalactic travel
F. non-corporeal sentience

Some notes on these suggested technologies: first, they're all applied technologies; they don't include theoretical/intellectual advances such as mathematics, Newton's laws of gravity, or the general theory of relativity. Those things absolutely are important, but they're harder to see when you're assessing some alien civilization than a practically applied technology like a hammer or a nuclear power plant. (The same holds for other kinds of civilizational advancement, but I'll get to that in the "Non-Technological Scales" section below.)

Also, while I've tried to stay true to what's been seen in Star Trek, there seems to be a gap between the technology of A.D. 2400 and the tech level needed to build something as monumental as a Dyson sphere. So I've tried to suggest a couple of "new" technologies that seem to fit into the Star Trek universe, such as "subspace power" and "intergalactic travel." Also, there seem to be a lot of lifeforms based on energy in the Star Trek universe, some of which definitely evolved from "lower" life forms... so that seems like a natural end-point for technological progress.

Once the members of your civilization can turn at will into amorphous blobs of glowiness that can go anywhere and become anything, you're pretty much done with conventional measures of technological progress....

[continued in next post]

[Flatfingers]

[continued from previous post]

AN ENERGY-BASED CLASSIFICATION SYSTEM

Another way of classifying the technology level of a society was proposed by the Russian cosmologist Nikolai Kardashev.

This Kardashev scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale), while probably not based directly on the ideas of anthropologist Leslie White (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_White), does expand on White's notion that a culture's technological capability is directly proportional to the amount of energy it consumes.

Kardashev proposed three tiers of civilizations -- Types I, II, and III -- each of which uses about 10x10 (ten to the tenth power) more power than the previous tier. Others who followed Kardashev added Type 0 and Type IV classifications, leading to a system as follows:

Type 0 can harness only some of the power available on a planet (about a megawatt)
Type I can harness all the power available on a planet (about 10x16 watts)
Type II can harness all the power available from a star (about 10x26 W)
Type III can harness all the power available from a galaxy (about 10x36 W)
Type IV can harness all the power available throughout a universe (roughly 10x46 W)

To give you an idea of how this energy-technology scale might be applied, Carl Sagan once calculated that the most advanced portions of humanity (as of about 1980) were about seven-tenths of the way toward becoming a Type I civilization.

Warp capability probably occurs about a third of the way past attaining Type I status. So the major races of the Star Trek universe might be said to be just a couple of clicks before entering the Type II tech level.

Type III civilizations, Type IV, and beyond are essentially beyond our speculative comprehension. It's impossible to know with any certainty what a human could do -- or become -- with so much power.

Join the Q continuum, maybe...?

NON-TECHNOLOGICAL SCALES

Finally, it needs to be acknowledged that technology is not the only -- or best -- measure of the degree of "advancement" of a civilization.

The late Georgetown University historian Carroll Quigley, in his excellent book The Evolution of Civilizations (about which I've written more here (http://flatfingers-theory.blogspot.com/2007/04/civil-war-in-united-federation-of.html) in a Star Trek Online context), discussed how different civilizations might be distinguished from one another. Quigley, while noting that any division of characteristic high-level qualities is arbitrary and imperfect, suggested six key qualities against which the development of civilizations could be measured: Intellectual, Religious, Social, Economic, Political, and Military.

For various reasons, I actually prefer to extend this classification system to span eight characteristic qualities, ranging from the most abstract to the most concrete:


Intellectual: The need for comprehension
Technological: The need for control of the physical world
Ethical: The need for control of human motives
Religious: The need for psychological security
Social: The need for community
Economic: The need for material security
Political: The need to organize power relationships
Military: The need for group security

Just as I broke down the Technology quality into numerous key artifacts, we could do the same with each of the seven other qualities listed above. For the Economic quality, for example, we might identify concepts and organizational inventions like currency, capitalism, fractional-reserve banking and the public corporation as key markers of progress within that quality.

Through gameplay in which our characters can observe these qualities in each new civilization we discover, we could build up a reasonably effective picture of how every civilization stacks up against our own factional civilization. It wouldn't tell us everything directly -- for example, are the people in this alien civilization I just encountered typically friendly to strangers, or are they as xenophobic as the Malcorians in the TNG episode "First Contact" (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/First_Contact_%28episode%29)? So there could be other factors worth noting about new civilizations than these eight qualities.

That said, using this multi-frequency kind of cultural assessment model in a Star Trek MMORPG, whether it's the eight qualities suggested above or not, is preferable to a purely technological metric. It's not only a more adequate measure of "progress," in a way it's better for Star Trek Online because it creates more opportunities for gameplay for those who enjoy exploration. Clandestine observation of new cultures to assess their qualities played a role in numerous Star Trek TV episodes and at least one movie. So having several different kinds of qualities that can be monitored and recorded by an exploration-oriented character in a Survey role could turn out to be a lot of fun. (It could also be useful in generating appropriate qualities for bridge NPCs adopted from newly-discovered worlds.)

QUESTIONS

A system like this obviously has some edge cases and things that might change over the course of gameplay. I'd like to know how you folks would suggest handling the following questions:

1. Should civilizations be classified with just one tech level? Or should a general tech level be calculated as an average of a culture's level of advancement in various specific technologies, such as transportation, communication, energy production, computers, military hardware, and so on? What about as an average of a civilization's progress across several different kinds of scales (as noted above), including technological, social, economic and other bands?

2. How would we classify the tech level of a Balkanized planet on which exist multiple civilizations at different tech levels? Should we pick the civilization with the highest tech level (especially if they're close to their first warp 1 flight)? Or should we calculate an average tech level? Or is there some other approach to defining a specific tech level that would be more fun?

3. Should civilizations at a particular tech level be able to increase their tech level during the course of Star Trek Online's lifespan? Wouldn't it be interesting if a pre-warp culture were to make their initial warp 1 flight and suddenly become a new candidate for a First Contact mission, or even -- after suitable diplomacy -- for admission to the Federation or a competing faction?

4. We've been told that we may be able to "adopt" as characters in our NPC bridge crew some members of cultures on new worlds we discover. Should those characters come only from worlds that are warp-capable?

COMMENTS

I know that some are going to think this is overkill, that defining every faction/civilization in terms of specific levels within eight different qualities will take way too much development time for not enough benefit.

In particular I know it'll seem strangely excessive to the more combat-oriented players. But I think it's safe to guess that Star Trek Online will be designed to offer plenty of the kill-it-and-take-its-stuff content that the Acheivers among us typically enjoy. The kind of richly-detailed world features I'm talking about here are for the Explorers, who -- in this particular game, with its particular license -- require an equivalent amount of content that's as enjoyable to them as competition/acquisition is to the Achievers.

So my goal here is to describe some different ways of implementing one core gamplay idea: allow player characters to assess the level of advancement of newly-discovered alien civilizations. We've been told that exploration will be an important part of this game -- well, designing the many civilizations in this game to have unique cultural qualities is one way of helping to create plenty of solid, enjoyable exploration content to enjoy.

So what about this? Is a "tech level" feature worth having, and do any of the ideas suggested here for the shape of that feature seem to be going in a particularly good direction? Or not so much?

Thanks for reading!

--Flatfingers

[ianobs]

1. how long did it take for you to type that out?

2. in a few episodes planets were classified as pre-warp. and also pre-industrial. or things of that nature. it would be very possible that there would be a similar classification system for planets in sto

[Talamakara]

i hope cryptic reads this, you put to much effort into it to be ignored, good job. And a good idea.

[Manx]

I kinda had the impression that the Federation basically put the new races it discovered into one of two categories:

1: Pre-warp.

2: Possible Federation membership candidate.

What the Klingons thought about such things, I don't know; I suspect it was simply 'can we conquer it?', but I may not be giving them enough credit.

That said, a more detailed system might have practical applications. A planet that is only a year or two away from discovering warp travel might be worth keeping an eye on; or a particularly primitive people might warrant discreet study for anthropological reasons.

[SovWell]

lol I see a Dev in the loop. I mean after all, none of us would ever come up with this and be so informed. First the secret Dev post good ideas for the customers in the open with them now they are a Dev wanting true feed back :)

[Merius]

You should be an Anthropologiest Flat.


A few comments.

Comment #1
I agree with the russion, for a few reasons.

As the population of our planet grows, and we become an increasingly global community, so does our tech.

Think of where we were 5000 years go, and where we are now.

5000 years ago maybe 200,000 people lived on Earth - it took them years to travel distances today we consider short.

However - now our population is around 6,000,000,000 Billion - and growing expected to taper off around 9,000,000,000 Billion. That being said the distance to travel the earth has decreased, and so has our capability for communication and education.

Throw in the distance of space, even with Warp though, and things become more complicated and slows down the tech level between planets. Now if the Federation of Planets has aprox 120 planets in its group, averaging about 5,000,000,000 billion per planet (if that), thats a lot of people, with a lot of distance just to communicate.

Its kind of like stone age technology applied to space berring vehicles. (Star Trek is the stone ages of the space age.)

Summery: A lot of people with short distance (boom in tech) A lot of people with long distance (lag in tech.)

This is not to say that Earth would not continue to develop and grow its tech, but the rate at which it grew would be the same when comparing it to the stone ages tech development, thus the russion is probably right.



Comment #2

Check out this: Shift (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqfunyCeU5g)



Comment #3

I know The Prime Derective states avoid pre-warp civis.

However, right now we are looking through space with our telescopes, millions of miles away from our own planet. Whats to say a pre-warp civi group will not spy us before we even encounter them to determin if we should avoid them.

Maybe some pre-warp civilizations are just watching the intergalactic travelers.

Also, what is to say that some pre-warp group - builds a star ship, but it does not have faster than light travel, but sub light travel, and they walk up to my star ship and are like hey bud? Whats up?

How does the Prime Directive apply then? "Fire Phasers Captain? Aye Aye!"




Good Post Flat, Intreaging questions - but I think with my comment #1, I gave you a reason for the gap in the development of technologies ^_^

[Merius]

And! Most civilizations no matter what their tech level, are doomed anyway, because of the rate of planetary disasters.

I know by Star Trek's Tech level - we are destroying asteroids and and have a climate control on the planet. but what if a super volcanio erupts in 2409? Does that descrease the population from 9,000,000,000 billion to 1,000,000,000 billion in the first year?

Is this true of all of the planets in the federation? I seem to remember an episode where the Enterprise was helping out some Japanese looking alieans who were having a problem with volcanos?

And some that were having problems with asteroids..



These obsticals are further proof, that the space travel world of star trek, is similar to the stone age world of 5000 years ago.

Its very easy for a civilization to be erased from existance if their planet gets destroyed. How is the game going to encorporate that into all of the space battles we want to have with one another? How are we going to be fighting for survival when we are fighting the Klingons?

[Flatfingers]

Thanks for the comments, Merius.

I agree with you that there are lots of questions that could be asked about any system for classifying technology (or other) levels for a civilization. Any given system could be criticized for being so detailed that it doesn't convey a full picture, and at the same time criticized for not being detailed enough to describe that civilization to some arbitrary degree of accuracy.

Fortunately we only need to find a system that works as fun gameplay. :) If it can be based on a plausible or realistic system, that's great -- in fact, that was my starting point for many of the ideas in my initial post -- but it shouldn't be the primary goal.

Now, to specifics. I think you'll find there were a few more than 200,000 representatives of H. sapiens living on Earth as of 5000 B.C. ;) That said, your point about the generation and diffusion of technology is a good one. As population density increases and travel times between any two points decreases, the rates of technology development and diffusion tend to increase.

In particular it's important to note (as you suggested) that the real key here is communication. The more people in one area, the easier it is to find someone to swap ideas with. Likewise, "travel" is a kind of stand-in for communication -- as real things get turned into ones and zeros, and they "travel" in networks, the speed at which ideas can be communicated among people increases.

And there are two typical effects of this. The first effect is the establishment of a kind of "baseline technology" among those using a highly connected communication network -- once some people know something, it's not long before most people know it. This tends to flatten out regional peaks in tech level. The second effect is to significantly expand opportunities for growth in intellectual capital -- it gets easier to come up with useful ideas when it's easier to learn what other people think would be useful. (Incidentally, I argue that it was this, and not any supposed national economic policy-making, which was most responsible for the productivity increases and subsequent economic gains of the mid-to-late 1990s. The transition among businesses from the LAN to Internet connectivity made it so much easier to find information and share knowledge that the intellectual labor of everyone in the network became more valuable.)

So what does this mean for the generation and diffusion of technology in the 24th-century world of Star Trek?

Firstly (and this has been noted in many, many more examples of science fiction than Star Trek), no galactic society can exist without faster-than-light travel. That's not just for the transfer of necessary goods to planets that aren't self-sufficient -- it's also about being able to create a shared culture through the relatively rapid transmission of knowledge. In the world of Star Trek, it's safe to say that there could be no Federation without warp drive at a minimum, and that subspace technology (which enables FTL communication) is what really makes the Federation possible as a coherent culture.

So, to finally get back to technology levels, as long as enough people on a planet have a high enough tech level to understand subspace mechanics (and thus to be able to remain part of the galactic communication network), their technology level should be close to the same (on average) as any other Federation member.

The tech level of planets not part of the Federation will depend on whether they, too, possess the knowledge of faster-than-light travel (and communication). This is why the pre-warp versus warp-capable distinction matters -- until that technological mark is hit, and people are able to realize that they're all actually pretty similar, it's unlikely that any humanoid lifeforms will have a sufficiently well-distributed culture to be able to survive the shock of realizing that they are not alone.

Side note: There's a point here that I find fascinating to think about, which relates to another of Carroll Quigley's observations: groups need other groups that are different from themselves in other to progress. Once everyone is at all the same levels of technological, economic, social (etc.) progress, all progress ceases. So what happens when everybody's on the Internet and some civilization winds up being so dominant that everybody eventually sees life in the same way? At that point, somebody (likely a charismatic individual who appeals to mob sensibilities) takes over... and as Lord Acton pointed out, power tends to corrupt (that is, it tends to corrupt those persons who are entrusted with power), and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

In the time between establishing a One-World Government -- something we in this real world should hope never happens -- and the discovery and development of the warp drive that can reopen the frontier of the stars and thereby allow the formation of new human cultures and civilizations, I suspect it's entirely likely that we could indeed see world wars and police states like those imagined for the Star Trek universe. Whether such a corrupt and Hobbesian state could be transmuted into a benevolent and cooperative culture in a relative blink of an eye due solely to warp drive and subspace communication as in Star Trek is, I think, more wishful thinking than realistic vaticination. ("Vaticination" -- I've always wanted to be able to use that word in a sentence. :D )

Still, it's interesting to think about.

At any rate, the notion of tech levels being different on different planets is something I think fits not only any science fictional universe that includes a multi-planet Federation, and not just works well with the many Star Trek episodes we've seen, it's something that I think offers some great opportunities for variety in gameplay in Star Trek Online. Differences in technology level not only help create a different "feel" for different alien worlds, having them opens up some cool gameplay features like technology trading, diplomatic opportunities (including First Contact), and the chance to lose our memories and be worshipped as gods by hot natives.

"I... am... KIROK!"

;)

--Flatfingers

[MidniteAvenger]

I too was wondering about this. I have played many games SF RPG in my time and all had a Tech Level Chart. Although I don't think its canon. I believe many shows spoke of the level of development of worlds that were visited. The terms used were vague but we may be able to use them to equate some type system that is easy to understand.

Terms I remember were

A. pre-warp
1. primitive
2. pre-industrial
3. industrial(conjecture)
4. tecnologically advanced
B. warp-capable
1. tecnologically equivalent
2. tecnologically superior
C. God-like

Although these terms are more "Trek" like they have holes that need to be filled. I prefer the Tech Levels or "TL's" of other games for their comprehensiveness and comfortability factors. Thats just my take though.

[Flatfingers]

I too was wondering about this. I have played many games SF RPG in my time and all had a Tech Level Chart.

Yep, either because it seems appropriate for Star Trek, or because people who design science fiction games just can't resist making up a technology classification system ;), or both.

I actually like the one you suggested. Yours is different (not inherently better/worse, just different) than the ones I outlined because it's a relative scale -- it defines the technological capabilites of all other civilizations relative to that of the Federation as of about A.D. 2380.

Where Star Trek Online is concerned, as long as the timeline doesn't advance much during the course of the game's existence, then we can reasonably expect that the average technology level of the Federation won't change. That allows even a relative scale to serve as a fixed marker of technological advancement. So there's no problem there.

I like an absolute scale a little better, but that's probably just me. I'd be fine with either type appearing in Star Trek Online, as long as something like them is implemented at all.

Frankly, I'd love to see an even more detailed characterization system for civilizations (known and alien) in the Star Trek universe. I think that could make for both good gameplay and good Star Trek. But a tech level classification system is a fine place to start.

So here's a question: if Cryptic agrees that some way to classify the technology level of alien civilizations is worth implementing in this game, how detailed should such a classification system be?

Does it really only need two levels -- pre-warp and warp-capable?

Or would 5-8 levels be enough to be interesting without getting too fussy?

Or would 16-20 provide the level of detail that would allow players to really feel like explorers?

Thoughts?

--Flatfingers

[Curleyjason]

I am not sure what they will come up with. But I have to say that this looks very well thought out.

However I would think that since a diferent set of rules would go with each classifaction (at least for the federation) that there should not be to many groups.

[Flatfingers]

I would think that since a diferent set of rules would go with each classifaction (at least for the federation) that there should not be to many groups.

It's an interesting question, and it brings up some additional questions.

Does Starfleet need different rules for how its representatives will behave toward members of barbarian, pre-industrial, post-industrial, warp-capable, and highly advanced societies?

Or is the simple pre-warp/warp-capable division as addressed by the Prime Directive enough?

What about economics? Should the technology level of a world have some kind of gameplay-meaningful effects on the game economy?

Is it OK for Starfleet ships to take raw resources from a world populated by a pre-sapient species? How about one that's warp-capable but declared to be a factional enemy?

What kinds of goods should be available from a technologically advanced society? Raw resources? Manufactured goods? Near-"magical" technology? Digital information?

And what rules -- if any -- should exist over on the Klingon side of the game regarding the technology level of newly discovered alien cultures?

Just a few more things to think about. (Imagine how many little details like this the developers have to consider. :) Making a major MMORPG is not for the faint-hearted!)

--Flatfingers

[Merchanter]

Well reasoned and I agree. I would like to see something in game for tech level classification. However, (And their for some reason always has to be a however) Lets take it another step.

1. What level of tech will they let us aquire.

And the biggie

2.How hard should it be for us aquire advanced tecc.

I do not even have a guess at the first. As for the second, I hope it has a fair degree of dificulty,

[Merius]

due to another thread... "bump"

[Flatfingers]

Merius is my new pal. :)

While I'm back in this thread, here's another question that occurred to me today.

It's generally pretty easy to imagine bumping into societies whose technology level is lower than our own. Because we've passed that level, we know the kinds of technological artifacts and processes that someone at an earlier stage of development is likely to possess, so we don't have to invent anything when we (as Cryptic must) are trying to dream up game content.

But what about societies whose technology is more advanced than our own? (And by "our," I mean whatever Star Trek series we're currently watching on TV, although the same would apply to us in real life if we ever bumped into aliens.)

Encountering aliens who are more technologically advanced than Our Heroes is a problem in creating Star Trek stories and content for two reasons:

1. That new technology has to be imagined, and, if done right, really ought to be scientifically plausible (to the extent possible in a universe with warp drives, phasers, replicators, and transporters).

2. Allowing the existence of aliens with much higher technology than that of Our Heroes creates what may be too high a level of challenge. If they could wipe us out, why don't they? An explanation for that has to be concocted.

So what do these problems mean for a game like Star Trek Online? Should we be able to encounter hostile aliens whose technology is considerably more advanced than our own? If so, how will that work as good gameplay? If not, how can we explain away the strange absence in the galaxy of anyone more advanced technologically than ourselves? (Especially since we've already seen such entities in various Star Trek episodes.)

Questions, questions. :D

--Flatfingers

[evan.is.weyoun]

I would just like the point out that at the point of Dyson Spheres, technological advancement forks. A civilization either builds Dyson Spheres or they develop intergalactic travel. Dyson Spheres are 600 million Earths, the need for space travel ends. But intergalactic travel is what a civlization will do instead of Dyson Spheres. So instead of Dyson Spheres THEN intergalactic travel, it should be D1- Dyson Spheres, D2- IG Travel, E- non corporealism.

[Flatfingers]

A civilization either builds Dyson Spheres or they develop intergalactic travel. Dyson Spheres are 600 million Earths, the need for space travel ends.

I think you may be basing that conclusion on a faulty premise. Just because someone builds a mansion doesn't mean they lose their love of travel.

There's a big difference between "need" and "want." I don't disagree that acquiring on the order of 600 million Earths would probably eliminate the need for travel, but I don't think that implies the sphere engineers would necessarily no longer want to explore the rest of universe if they could.

I might could be persuaded, however, that an energy/transportation technology like intergalactic travel would be discovered before the ability to construct a Dyson sphere is gained. A Dyson sphere is an engineering challenge of mind-blowingly, abso-staggering-lutely stupendous difficulty. Where does all the material (solid and liquid) come from? Even with replicator technology, would a star put out enough energy to be able to transform it into sufficient mass? And how would the specific form of all that mass be controlled as it's created?

Assuming something like FTL travel is even possible at all, going from "inexplicably fast" to "impossibly fast" is just a matter of degree. Going from being able to build ringworlds to building a complete shell around a star... that's an inconceivably enormous leap in difficulty.

So I could see us discovering intergalactic travel before being able to build a Dyson sphere. Alternately, we could collectively decide that the Moon is just too far away, our medical and information sciences advance apace, and we all become immortal when we gain the capability to download our "selves" into a world computer. There we live happily until a big rock falls out of the sky and smashes everything to bits.

About all we can say with any certainty is that the future won't turn out like any of us expected. :)

--Flatfingers

[Merius]

hmm.. a few thoughts come to mind on this.

When the Spanish conquored the Aztekz, they had Horses, Steel, Guns, and Germs. All of which helped them overwhelmingly defeat armys far greator than them.

So if the Federation were the Azteks, and some Alien group encoutnered them, what kind of Steel, Guns, and Germs, and Horses and Ships that cross seas would the Aliens have?




Also, some say the next stage in human evolution is energy. Their was one Star Trek TNG episode where they encountered a speicies that was evolving into an energy like being.

And then theirs the Q. We know how the federation tryed to handle that species.

[0wl]

i hope cryptic reads this, you put to much effort into it to be ignored, good job. And a good idea.

Agreed great fun to read and i seriously hope that many of the options you described will be possible or even ingame, well done! :)

[Dahakra]

First of all a great read Flatfingers and many thanks to Merius for necroing this threat so it came to my attention :D

Now having read this, a scenario that would, in a way, defy classification sprang to mind, this is it ;

Scenario # 1

We have a civilisation that are highly advanced, technology, compared to the Federation and its contemporary. They have matter replicators, transporter tech, they're medical science has cured just about every ailment that plagued them for as long as they've been around. They have colonised and even terraformed other planets / moons in their home system as well as having numerous orbital and non-orbiting habitats and manufacturing space stations and actively mine asteroid belts ect. They have sufficient ship tech to be able to move around their own system in a fast and efficient manner without using warp drives.

However they as a civilisation have decided to remain within their own star system. They are aware of the existence of other races out there in the big, bad universe but choose not to interact. As a result of they're, say, isolationist policy they have never developed warp propulsion, having no need for it.

How would this civilisation fit in with your classification system? Since technically they would be "pre-warp" yes.


And another, similar but different enough.

Scenario # 2

We once again have a highly advanced civilisation, they posses replicators, transporters, phaser / energy type weaponry ect.
However due to a natural phenomena, warp fields cannot be generated in their local space, ( think Brier(sp?) patch).
Unlike the previous race, these guys want to go out there and explore, make contact with other races, build an empire ect. But given the ,say sub-space conditions, they're space program has been severely retarded. So instead of developing Warp drives they instead develop some kind of sub-space conduit technology in order to get out there. Think they've only just done this and have yet to get to opportunity to study warp drives so don't have them. They still demonstrate an understanding of sub-space, perhaps even greater than our own, but have no warp tech, hence they're Pre-warp also.

So again how would yours or any other classification deal with this?

Anyways, just a few thoughts :D

- Dahakra

[SelorKiith]

For the 2nd Scenario I think... calling someone beeing Warp-Capable doesn't mean they actually use Warp Drives like the Federation and it would be possibly just a short term for "They have developed Technology that could take them out to the great Playground, into the Universe" and hence would be called a "Warp-Capable Race" due to Namingtraditions.

[Skelly]

Summery: A lot of people with short distance (boom in tech) A lot of people with long distance (lag in tech.)

Really disgree with this. I believe there is a ramp up when we are first able to communicate and then there is breaking point. Of course that could be more toward social aspects than the abilit to communicate. But if we look at the las 100 years, we saw jumps in technology that reshaped the world. The automobile, the airplane, radio, telivision, computers, space travel, these are major jumps in technology because we had need of them because communication was so slow. Now we have the internet and while we still have advancements they are not as ground shaking as the early to mid 20th. But as I said this could be more in line with the social climate. Risk use to be understood and encouraged, now it is feared and discouraged. People getting on a rocket that could blow them to pieces for a ride to the moon with only faith that they could make it back was something. Now we would have to prove 200% that it would be succesful before attempting anything, and show how we would profit finacially. The will to do something because it there is going away. Maybe because we communicate so easily and our cultures and social habbits are mixed in an opposing way to technological progress.

This would make an interesting concept for planet observation in STO. You observe a planet on the brink of Warp power to see it fall short, and when you investigate why you find a WoW box in 80% of the homes. LOL

[Flatfingers]

Scenario # 1: We have a civilisation that are highly advanced, technology, compared to the Federation and its contemporary. ... However they as a civilisation have decided to remain within their own star system.

Scenario # 2: We once again have a highly advanced civilisation, they posses replicators, transporters, phaser / energy type weaponry ect. ... However due to a natural phenomena, warp fields cannot be generated in their local space, (think Briar patch).

So again how would yours or any other classification deal with this?

Good questions!

To try to put it simply, I think the distinction in both cases is between "knowledge of" and "use of." The question is, which one determines a culture's technology level?

(Note: For some ideas on how assessing a civilization's technology level -- among other things -- might fit into Star Trek Online's gameplay, please see my new thread, Survey: The Game of Galactic Exploration (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=13123).)

After giving this some thought, here's what seems right to me:

When a culture that knows about high technology can use it but chooses not to, their tech level should be determined by what they know.

When a culture that knows about high technology is prevented from using it, their tech level should be determined by what they can actually do.

The reasoning behind these conclusions is that the point of defining a culture's tech level is to provide a guide for how to interact properly with that culture. A high-tech culture, which presumably is capable of securing its own needs and wants within a galaxy occupied by other high-tech cultures, requires one kind of interaction. A low-tech culture that's at a disadvantage relative to more technologically advanced cultures requires a different approach. (And this requirement is even more stringent for the Federation, which feels an ethical need to distinguish between cultures that are warp-capable and those that are not.)

So: a culture that understands how to create highly advanced technologies but chooses not to build and use them could change its mind; it's capable of defending itself relative to other cultures should it wish to do so. In this case, I believe it makes sense to treat such a culture as though it could at any time express itself using the highest technology it knows.

A culture that knows how to create highly advanced technological artifacts but is prevented by some external force (whether natural or artificial) from applying that knowledge, however, would not be able to defend itself from a much more advanced culture. (And by "defend" I don't mean military conflict only; one culture can also be materially affected by another through religious, economic, social, ethical or other interactions.) In this case, I think it makes more sense to classify that culture according to the technologies it's actually capable of using.

Does this seem reasonable? It feels like a valid rule of thumb to me, but I'm open to alternate views.

--Flatfingers

[Dahakra]

Yes it would seem reasonable to an extent, especially in the first instance.

The second instance however I would disagree with you. I guess it really boils down to this for me.
Is warp tech the defining yard stick to which we would judge a civilisations technology level? Or would any Faster than light propulsion technology be sufficient to warrant it as suitability advanced for first contact?
In the second scenario I used a natural phenomena as a way to justify there inability to generate warp drives, however they developed an alternative method of moving beyond they're own backyard as it where. Hence personally I would consider them more than advanced enough for first contact.

And yea I'll have to put aside a day or two to read your full proposal :D

- Dahakra

[Flatfingers]

In the second scenario I used a natural phenomena as a way to justify there inability to generate warp drives, however they developed an alternative method of moving beyond they're own backyard as it where. Hence personally I would consider them more than advanced enough for first contact.

That's a good point.

I was addressing the general case to try to show how the overarching principle of "cultural defense" could be applied, but you're right -- in the actual scenario you specified, that culture did find an alternate way of achieving a result similar to warp technology. In that case, I agree with you; their demonstrated technology means they're properly classified as a "warp-capable" culture.

Star Trek is full of exceptions like these. (Exceptions make good stories -- consider all the stories that Isaac Asimov wrote trying to find ways around his "Three Laws of Robotics.") So your questions are definitely in the spirit of the show. Nice job!

--Flatfingers

[Merius]

Really disgree with this. I believe there is a ramp up when we are first able to communicate and then there is breaking point. Of course that could be more toward social aspects than the abilit to communicate. But if we look at the las 100 years, we saw jumps in technology that reshaped the world. The automobile, the airplane, radio, telivision, computers, space travel, these are major jumps in technology because we had need of them because communication was so slow. Now we have the internet and while we still have advancements they are not as ground shaking as the early to mid 20th. But as I said this could be more in line with the social climate. Risk use to be understood and encouraged, now it is feared and discouraged. People getting on a rocket that could blow them to pieces for a ride to the moon with only faith that they could make it back was something. Now we would have to prove 200% that it would be succesful before attempting anything, and show how we would profit finacially. The will to do something because it there is going away. Maybe because we communicate so easily and our cultures and social habbits are mixed in an opposing way to technological progress.

This would make an interesting concept for planet observation in STO. You observe a planet on the brink of Warp power to see it fall short, and when you investigate why you find a WoW box in 80% of the homes. LOL



Just as a responce. I think that the technology that reshapped the world, automobile, airplane, radio, television, radio, computers, etc.

These all shorten the distance for communication. So as this technology developes, our communication time decreases. Thus more improvements in technology.

I'm sure if you looked at a timescale and placed these technologies on a chart, you would find that at the start, they would be spaced a little, and as time goes on, the technology gets closer together, meaning that each new peice improved our ability to communicate with one another. Because they shortened the distance we had to spend to get from point a to point b and talk with one another.

The blog is great. I don't have to travel to new york to debate this with a fellow bloger.

I can do it from the comfort of my own home.

^_^

Thus our communication helps the dev's explore new ideas that otherwise, they would have to come up with themselves. And more heads/minds are better than one. It improves our tech, our game. and faster!

however, once you enter space, were talking about distances...that are very vast.

If I'm living on Earth, and your living on a planet that is 4 light years away. Meaning if I send a message to you through radio waves, and those radio waves don't travel the speed of light. ...you get my message in say.. 60 years..(guessing) ...my message is an improvement (maybe) in a way of life for you.

Well it sucks...you might be too old now for it to benefit you now, maybe it will benefit your children.

[andrewprofit]

I agree's everything should be classified through sensors results and accuracy should depend on training, and equipment.

Elite used to have a rough classification system that was entertaining in its day and were I to load up that old game the classification system would still be one of its most interesting aspects.

Starflight had a rough classification system for life forms that was back in 1982. Those classifications were often entertaining to read. It seemed to me like there were thousands of different lifeforms.

[Sevenblade]

Good questions!

To try to put it simply, I think the distinction in both cases is between "knowledge of" and "use of." The question is, which one determines a culture's technology level?

(Note: For some ideas on how assessing a civilization's technology level -- among other things -- might fit into Star Trek Online's gameplay, please see my new thread, Survey: The Game of Galactic Exploration (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=13123).)

After giving this some thought, here's what seems right to me:

When a culture that knows about high technology can use it but chooses not to, their tech level should be determined by what they know.

When a culture that knows about high technology is prevented from using it, their tech level should be determined by what they can actually do.

The reasoning behind these conclusions is that the point of defining a culture's tech level is to provide a guide for how to interact properly with that culture. A high-tech culture, which presumably is capable of securing its own needs and wants within a galaxy occupied by other high-tech cultures, requires one kind of interaction. A low-tech culture that's at a disadvantage relative to more technologically advanced cultures requires a different approach. (And this requirement is even more stringent for the Federation, which feels an ethical need to distinguish between cultures that are warp-capable and those that are not.)

So: a culture that understands how to create highly advanced technologies but chooses not to build and use them could change its mind; it's capable of defending itself relative to other cultures should it wish to do so. In this case, I believe it makes sense to treat such a culture as though it could at any time express itself using the highest technology it knows.

A culture that knows how to create highly advanced technological artifacts but is prevented by some external force (whether natural or artificial) from applying that knowledge, however, would not be able to defend itself from a much more advanced culture. (And by "defend" I don't mean military conflict only; one culture can also be materially affected by another through religious, economic, social, ethical or other interactions.) In this case, I think it makes more sense to classify that culture according to the technologies it's actually capable of using.

Does this seem reasonable? It feels like a valid rule of thumb to me, but I'm open to alternate views.

--Flatfingers

See, no disrespect, but I think you have it a little backwards here. A warp capable species that chooses to isolate itself, a la Scenario 1, would be protected under the Prime Directive. Here, it's more about the spirit of the Directive, rather than the letter, as it is intended to prevent unwanted and unintended meddling in another's culture. However, we use warp drive as a measure for that, assuming that any civilization that got to warp stage without annihilating their planet must be at least a little culturally mature and able to control their baser instincts for destruction.
In the Titan novels, Riker's USS TItan encounters a race that has built warp capable technology, but does not use it to travel very far even within their system. In fact, they managed to use it more for a weapon, rather than propulsion. However, since they decided to remain isolationist and not explore the Galaxy, Riker's hands were tied by the Prime Directive when he wanted to interact with the culture and go to the surface (they thought the Titan's sister ship had crash landed there). This was almost the same scenario for the Ba'ku, who used to travel the galaxy in warp-capable ships, but chose to isolate themselves in the Briar Patch. Hence many times in Insurrection the Prime Directive was brought up as hindering any Federation involvement in Ba'ku matters.
An isolationist society chooses to keep it's culture unaffected by outsiders, so therefore the Federation making contact with them would be against their wishes and meddling in their culture. The technology level does not determine their status under the Prime Directive, but rather how they wish their culture to be.

Now, an exploring civilization that simply does not have warp capable means of doing so would tricky. Under the letter of the Directive, Starfleet should not be able to contact them. However, I feel that most captains would have a dilemma over this, and might choose to flout the Directive, as the species clearly desires contact with other cultures and is making efforts to do so, even if they can't travel fast enough to do so efficiently. The captain in question might be allowed to bend the Directive in order to contact them, but his interactions would most definitely limited, as they would not be allowed to supply any technology through trade or other means to the slower civilization, because that would give them a leg up, and push them to warp-capable status before they were meant to.

We always have to remember that the Prime Directive's intent is more important than it's letter, which is why we see it broken so many times by Starfleet captains when it is deemed necessary. Yes, they often suffer repercussions because of it, but the spirit of the Directive is to prevent meddling, intentional or otherwise (and good intentioned or not) in other cultures. Warp drive is simply the most efficient and standard measure for determining the level of societal maturity for a civilization so that the Federation can interact with them.

[Flatfingers]

See, no disrespect, but I think you have it a little backwards here. A warp capable species that chooses to isolate itself, a la Scenario 1, would be protected under the Prime Directive. Here, it's more about the spirit of the Directive, rather than the letter ...

No offense taken whatsoever -- in fact, the more I think about it, the more I think you make a great point that's worth considering.

If a civilization doesn't want to interact with higher technology cultures, then the spirit of the Prime Directive -- as we've seen in numerous Star Trek episodes -- is that they should be allowed to keep to themselves.

The problem with this, which has been the source of several Star Trek episodes (particularly in TOS), is the knowledge that although the Federation might respect the wishes of a culture that prefers to remain isolated, other groups may not share that ethically-driven restraint in any way whatsoever. The Klingons, for example, would laugh at the Federation for not exploiting some culture's valuable resources -- they'd just walk in and take what they wanted; anyone too weak to defend themselves (especially if they could do so but choose not to) obviously doesn't deserve what they have.

And the Borg wouldn't even laugh. They'd just assimilate everyone.

So which is the greater responsibility -- to protect the defenseless even if they consider that to be interference with their culture? Or to knowingly stand by and watch a culture be abused, enslaved or even destroyed, in order to maintain perfect adherence to the spirit of the Prime Directive?

This actually becomes a pertinent question to Cryptic. On the one hand, simple gameplay would say just have a Tech Level field with one of two values -- pre-warp and warp-capable -- and base any Prime Directive gameplay off of that. On the other hand, part of the unique charm of Star Trek (which Cryptic should want to capture in their game, I would think) is the kind of ethical dilemma I described above that drives interesting stories, and which is driven by putting characters in situations where the strength of their principles is tested -- that, I think, requires more than just a simple Tech Level value.

So with respect to how Tech Level and the Prime Directive are related, I'm going to have to think some more about that. I don't mind if anyone wants to discuss it further here, though.

Meanwhile, what about other applications of Tech Level in Star Trek Online? What kinds of economic or diplomatic gameplay, for example, could be driven by our characters encountering cultures that are either more or less advanced than theirs?

--Flatfingers

[Merius]

Good points. This is why I think that Star Trek Online should include a staff meeting scenerio for some ethicily driven missions. Often Picard and the rest of the staff would be in the confrence room, trying to decide on a course of action. Picard would take the input of all of his senior staff members, and then make a decision.

I hope that is somehow incorporated into the game, where when I'm faced with a moralely or ethically driven problem, that I can call a meeting and ask my staff members their opinions. + if my staff members have their own race and specailty backgrounds, the opinions might verry a little from player to player ship to ship. My Andorian Tactical officer might be different from a Human Tacticle officer.

[Sevenblade]

No offense taken whatsoever -- in fact, the more I think about it, the more I think you make a great point that's worth considering.

If a civilization doesn't want to interact with higher technology cultures, then the spirit of the Prime Directive -- as we've seen in numerous Star Trek episodes -- is that they should be allowed to keep to themselves.

The problem with this, which has been the source of several Star Trek episodes (particularly in TOS), is the knowledge that although the Federation might respect the wishes of a culture that prefers to remain isolated, other groups may not share that ethically-driven restraint in any way whatsoever. The Klingons, for example, would laugh at the Federation for not exploiting some culture's valuable resources -- they'd just walk in and take what they wanted; anyone too weak to defend themselves (especially if they could do so but choose not to) obviously doesn't deserve what they have.

And the Borg wouldn't even laugh. They'd just assimilate everyone.

So which is the greater responsibility -- to protect the defenseless even if they consider that to be interference with their culture? Or to knowingly stand by and watch a culture be abused, enslaved or even destroyed, in order to maintain perfect adherence to the spirit of the Prime Directive?

This actually becomes a pertinent question to Cryptic. On the one hand, simple gameplay would say just have a Tech Level field with one of two values -- pre-warp and warp-capable -- and base any Prime Directive gameplay off of that. On the other hand, part of the unique charm of Star Trek (which Cryptic should want to capture in their game, I would think) is the kind of ethical dilemma I described above that drives interesting stories, and which is driven by putting characters in situations where the strength of their principles is tested -- that, I think, requires more than just a simple Tech Level value.

So with respect to how Tech Level and the Prime Directive are related, I'm going to have to think some more about that. I don't mind if anyone wants to discuss it further here, though.

Meanwhile, what about other applications of Tech Level in Star Trek Online? What kinds of economic or diplomatic gameplay, for example, could be driven by our characters encountering cultures that are either more or less advanced than theirs?

--Flatfingers

Oh definitely, and that dilemma is usually the key point of many Star Trek episodes. How do you pick from the lesser of two evils if you can't even determine which is the lesser? Is intervening to protect a pre-warp species from an interstellar bully worth risking possible irreparable damage to their culture? It's the reason why Starfleet captains are picked from those with extensive training and a firm sense of right and wrong, but also an open mind.

I agree with you and Merius. I would like to see a fair number of ethical dilemmas for us as future Starfleet (Acting) Captains, as this is what earned Starfleet it's role as (at least one of) our favorite sci fi shows ever. To me, that provides much better and more meaningful drama than any space battle or interstellar war. That's why I've realized that I think Star Trek stands above Star Wars, because it examines the human side more.
As for how to implement this in the game, you're right, Flatfingers, the easiest solution would be for Cryptic to simply implement a Prime-Directive-to-the-letter system, where a planet is classified as pre-warp, so we're simply not able to contact them. But I think it would make for a much more intriguing game if we can bend and break the Directive in times we deem necessary by our judgment as Starfleet officers. And perhaps we could see the consequences of those choices in the future. I don't know how they would implement this kind of system, but it's worth a thought, at least. Pre-warp vs. Post-warp seems like too easy a solution, and not a very well-thought out one, either.