Leveling vs. Rank, a solution?

[thefreshjedi]

Hey guys, I posted a similiar thread over on STO.net, back in the day, as there was a lot of speculation going around about how the leveling/ranking system might work.

This was an idea I came up with for a leveling system, (as a possibility). Based on the speculation from before, no-one could really decide how you would level or rank-up in STO, and there was a need to be able to gradually increase in ranks from Cadet to Captain and beyond. So I started thinking to myself, how would you go about this in an MMORPG styled system?

Just so we're in agreement, let's assume the following is at least a partial list of the potential ranks we will see in-game, and for you legal people out there: this in-no way reflects anything actually being implemented by Cryptic at the moment.

Cadet

The classes are ranked 5 through 1, 5 being lowest (no rank or insignia) to 1, (4 pips and a "Team Leader badge of merit")

Levels 1-5 (new class gained every 1 levels)

These levels would go quick, as they would be introductory, teaching you basic training, handling of the starship, navigational, comms, and other aspects of running a ship. These could be simple quests, which would be rewarded at the end of the quest, and would get you familiarized with the game.
(There could also be an option to skip this and go directly to Warrant Officer, for alts or returning players)

Ensign (*edit suggested)
Levels 5-20

Beginning at level 5, you would graduate the Academy and gain your first assignment. A small ship with a very small crew complement. This is where you could continue to learn and train out in the smaller solar system areas that you start in. I.e., Federation Ensigns could travel just within the Sol system and a few outlaying areas, continuing their training on-board a ship, at least until being comissioned as a Lieutenant, where they would graduate with a ceremony and obtain a larger ship, with more responsibilities and more crew.
This would also be a critical time to pick a path of personal career development, prior to being commissioned. For instance, do you want Command & Control, Engineering, Science, Medical, etc? And you will learn how to spend points increasing those skill trees. (These can be unlearned later if you don't like that skill path perhaps?)


Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Levels 20-30
Congratulations Lieutenant! You have succesfully completed xxxx hours of training onboard a starship, and based on your excellent performance, your evaluators have recommended you be promoted to Lieutenant, Jr. Grade! You are to be commissioned a (insert small ship name here) with a supporting crew of 20 personell. Based on your Career path it would seem that you have chosen to primarily focus your studies in Command and Control...you will need to report to Commander Smith for further training in the future!
Lieutenant, Junior Grade would be a big step, because now you would be give access to your first real starship, a much larger crew than before, and the ability to pick and choose missions better. The danger level would increase with the missions, and so would your responsibility and reward.

Lieutenant
Levels 35-40
Continuing up the chain of command would grant you access to newer, more exciting missions, better equipment and crew, and a much larger area of space to explore.


Lieutenant Commander
Levels 40-45

As a lieutenant Commander you would now be able to access elite missions with a large crew, lets say (40 plus crew-members), and you could assist other Officers on group missions that required larger crews and more ships.


Commander
Levels 45-50

By the time you've reached Commander, you are finally granted access to your first Flagship, such as a Galaxy or Sovereign (or whatever they have available at this time), your missions are much more complicated and riveting than ever before, and now you have much more difficult challenges that require you to sometimes side-step the prime directive, or make judgement calls that could be seen as "questionable" by some.


Captain
Levels 50-60

This is it baby! You've made it all the way...you have had a taste for the big times, and now you're in them. You finally have a unique flagship of your own, and are prepared better than ever to meet the call of duty, to boldly go where no-one has gone before.

This is just a work in progress, and like I said before, this in no-way reflects how Cryptic would actually implement a ranking system, but anyway, feel free to throw any comments this way, what do you guys think/feel about this? And can you add more to it? Like it? Hate it? Etc.?

-Avery

[Roshan713]

it looks good. I want to feel like I earned it, instead of just getting it out the door.

Can 60 and up be the Admiral rank?


and If I hit 100 or something, do I become Q?

[thefreshjedi]

it looks good. I want to feel like I earned it, instead of just getting it out the door.

Can 60 and up be the Admiral rank?


and If I hit 100 or something, do I become Q?

I was thinking for the initial release, Admiral and above ranks wouldn't be available, except for maybe in Guilds or Fleets. Such that a Guildmaster could be considered the "Admiral" of his Fleet for example?

-Avery

[elitolu]

What if you don't do something for that certain time.

[Varrangian]

Why do you go from Cadet to Warrant officer? WO is an enlisted rank. Ensign is the rank academy graduates are commissioned.

The easiest way to do this is not make "levels" obivious. Make Rank a function of two skill systems Personal skills (MOS - military occupational specialty based) and Command skills (skills that help you as a leader). Meaning you earn X Personal skill points you are given Y Command skill points. After Z Command points you are promoted (probably after the completion of a "rank" mission). This way you are constantly being given little rewards not to mention the rewards you'll gain by advancing your NPC crews, but rank is not the automatic reward. Levels exist in a more theoretic way in this system, they are there, but not actually used as an "accounting" method.

[thefreshjedi]

Why do you go from Cadet to Warrant officer? WO is an enlisted rank. Ensign is the rank academy graduates are commissioned.

The easiest way to do this is not make "levels" obivious. Make Rank a function of two skill systems Personal skills (MOS - military occupational specialty based) and Command skills (skills that help you as a leader). Meaning you earn X Personal skill points you are given Y Command skill points. After Z Command points you are promoted (probably after the completion of a "rank" mission). This way you are constantly being given little rewards not to mention the rewards you'll gain by advancing your NPC crews, but rank is not the automatic reward. Levels exist in a more theoretic way in this system, they are there, but not actually used as an "accounting" method.

Good point, let me edit that....

[thefreshjedi]

What if you don't do something for that certain time.

explain? I'm not sure what you mean by this? Do you mean what if you don't gain experience?

[ianobs]

I'm thinking that admiral would be a cap rank. i don't recall seeing anything above admiral in command of his own ship.

and that actual ties into the topic of player run crews. there wouldn't ever be more than one person with the rank of captain serving on a ship. one would be bumped up or down a rank so there wouldn't be any chain of command issues.

but having a rank/level combo system would proly keep most people happy. most people can count but maybe some people wont be able to remember rank levels in the appropriate order.

[elitolu]

explain? I'm not sure what you mean by this? Do you mean what if you don't gain experience?

Well you said that you would get a promotion in xxxx certain hours. What if you just roam for that time?

[thefreshjedi]

Why do you go from Cadet to Warrant officer? WO is an enlisted rank. Ensign is the rank academy graduates are commissioned.

The easiest way to do this is not make "levels" obivious. Make Rank a function of two skill systems Personal skills (MOS - military occupational specialty based) and Command skills (skills that help you as a leader). Meaning you earn X Personal skill points you are given Y Command skill points. After Z Command points you are promoted (probably after the completion of a "rank" mission). This way you are constantly being given little rewards not to mention the rewards you'll gain by advancing your NPC crews, but rank is not the automatic reward. Levels exist in a more theoretic way in this system, they are there, but not actually used as an "accounting" method.

Well, exactly. I guess a subsystem of the rank quotient would have to be either Prestige or Honor perhaps?

The only thing I can think of to demostrate this would Admiral Kirk. When Admiral Kirk was busted back down to Captain at the end of TOS: The Voyage Home (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_Voyage_Home), he lost a significant amount of prestige, but he didn't lose his experience or "level". So technically by the time we saw him in TOS: The Undiscovered Country (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_Undiscovered_Country), he would have been a full level (level 70+) Captain (lets say for the point of argument using the above ranking system, a level 70 or higher).

So technically, if you were "busted" for whatever reason, you wouldn't lose your level, but you would have to earn significant amounts of prestige or honor to regain your rank. You could expect to lose your right to pilot certain ships though perhaps. Maybe even lose you ability to command a number of supporting personell even?

-Avery

[ianobs]

Well you said that you would get a promotion in xxxx certain hours. What if you just roam for that time?

that time roaming would proly count as time served on a ship. just like getting a pilots licence. you dont have to do any particular thing as long as your flying. but it would proly be a combo of time served and missions completed

[lumpking69]

How many hours do you expect it to take to go from 1-60 ? 300hrs?

[thefreshjedi]

Well you said that you would get a promotion in xxxx certain hours. What if you just roam for that time?

Oh, sorry about that...that was just a scripted textual version of what the NPC might or (might not) say.

-Avery

[ianobs]

How many hours do you expect it to take to go from 1-60 ? 300hrs?

not sure of the math. but maybe an hour or 2 per rank. and increasing for each rank up?

think about other rpg's you have played (mmo or not) your level depends of how much time you spend leveling up.

and each level takes longer to get to.

it might take 1 or 2 months to get to a rank cap. but it would all depend on how much you played

[thefreshjedi]

not sure of the math. but maybe an hour or 2 per rank. and increasing for each rank up?

think about other rpg's you have played (mmo or not) your level depends of how much time you spend leveling up.

and each level takes longer to get to.

it might take 1 or 2 months to get to a rank cap. but it would all depend on how much you played

The hours thing was something I just "threw in there" to fill up space, you don't have to rely on hours, and some people might gain sufficient experience to level up, before others do, so that wouldn't be fair...I just figured that based on your /time playing that they could insert a generic figure in there for you.

I know some people could go from 1-60 in two days vs some others whom will take their time. The xxxx hours figure would just be that time it took you to complete missions and gain experience in the 5-20 level, at least until you graduated to Lieutenant maybe?

-Avery

[ianobs]

The hours thing was something I just "threw in there" to fill up space, you don't have to rely on hours, and some people might gain sufficient experience to level up, before others do, so that wouldn't be fair...I just figured that based on your /time playing that they could insert a generic figure in there for you.

I know some people could go from 1-60 in two days vs some others whom will take their time. The xxxx hours figure would just be that time it took you to complete missions and gain experience in the 5-20 level, at least until you graduated to Lieutenant maybe?

-Avery

i see that. but in fact as in all rpg's the more you play the faster you level/rank up. so i would be a fairly easy thing to add into the equation. meeting the required amount of missions/time spent = the next rank

[WinterPark1701]

I don't like leveling. I played SWG when it first came out and I enjoyed how they had that set up with the open ended skills, that is to say you had a series of skills that the more you used the higher they went. Rank, I could see rank as being something you purchase enabeling you to have larger and larger ships, say as a L.T. you'd have a runnabout but you wouldn't have access to a Galaxy until Captain. You could earn rank any number of ways.

But I do think that the open ended skill system allows for more diverse game play, you can customize your charater more to your own likeing rather than being locked into pre-set molds based on levels.

[Bladedge]

Rising through the ranks should be based on your accomplishments, honor, dishonor and reprimands as a whole and not based on destroying Vor’cha for 10k xp or scanning a planet for 5k xp, the whole level system thing is starting to become “out of date” when it comes to mmo’s.

I would like to see skills based on how often you use / not use them and not based on what level and rank you are. An ensign might be more advance in a certain skill then their superior or equal because they have a better understanding and not their rank.

The leveling system should stay with single player games or games that re trying to simulated rules based on PnP games like DnD.

[ianobs]

Rising through the ranks should be based on your accomplishments, honor, dishonor and reprimands as a whole and not based on destroying Vor’cha for 10k xp or scanning a planet for 5k xp, the whole level system thing is starting to become “out of date” when it comes to mmo’s.

I would like to see skills based on how often you use / not use them and not based on what level and rank you are. An ensign might be more advance in a certain skill then their superior or equal because they have a better understanding and not their rank.

The leveling system should stay with single player games or games that re trying to simulated rules based on PnP games like DnD.

like oblivion style? jump a bunch and level up your jump? or in this case fire your phaser a bunch and level your phaser skills.

[KypFisto]

Why do you go from Cadet to Warrant officer? WO is an enlisted rank. Ensign is the rank academy graduates are commissioned.

The easiest way to do this is not make "levels" obivious. Make Rank a function of two skill systems Personal skills (MOS - military occupational specialty based) and Command skills (skills that help you as a leader). Meaning you earn X Personal skill points you are given Y Command skill points. After Z Command points you are promoted (probably after the completion of a "rank" mission). This way you are constantly being given little rewards not to mention the rewards you'll gain by advancing your NPC crews, but rank is not the automatic reward. Levels exist in a more theoretic way in this system, they are there, but not actually used as an "accounting" method.

I don't like leveling. I played SWG when it first came out and I enjoyed how they had that set up with the open ended skills, that is to say you had a series of skills that the more you used the higher they went. Rank, I could see rank as being something you purchase enabeling you to have larger and larger ships, say as a L.T. you'd have a runnabout but you wouldn't have access to a Galaxy until Captain. You could earn rank any number of ways.

But I do think that the open ended skill system allows for more diverse game play, you can customize your charater more to your own likeing rather than being locked into pre-set molds based on levels.

QFE as this essentially sums up my thoughts. STO should be skill based and not level based. I don't want to be a lvl 35 commander, I want to be a commander with certain skillset that allows me to play the game proficiently but also sets me apart from my counterparts.

[Merius]

I don't understand the need to have 60 levels?

Why not just say

Ensign - Level 1
Lieutenant Junior Grade - Level 2
Lieutenant - Level 3
Lieutenant-Commander - Level 4
Commander - Level 5
Captain - Level 6
Commodore - Level 7
Admiral - Level 8


Lets say in our game we have 8 levels...

with 60 levels you go from 0XP to 100,000 XP -

but in STO - with 8 levels you go from 0 XP to 100,000XP


Lets not overcomplicate things, it gets silly.

[Varrangian]

I don't understand the need to have 60 levels?

Why not just say

Ensign - Level 1
Lieutenant Junior Grade - Level 2
Lieutenant - Level 3
Lieutenant-Commander - Level 4
Commander - Level 5
Captain - Level 6
Commodore - Level 7
Admiral - Level 8


Lets say in our game we have 8 levels...

with 60 levels you go from 0XP to 100,000 XP -

but in STO - with 8 levels you go from 0 XP to 100,000XP


Lets not overcomplicate things, it gets silly.

But this one goes to 11 :p

[thefreshjedi]

I don't understand the need to have 60 levels?

Why not just say

Ensign - Level 1
Lieutenant Junior Grade - Level 2
Lieutenant - Level 3
Lieutenant-Commander - Level 4
Commander - Level 5
Captain - Level 6
Commodore - Level 7
Admiral - Level 8


Lets say in our game we have 8 levels...

with 60 levels you go from 0XP to 100,000 XP -

but in STO - with 8 levels you go from 0 XP to 100,000XP


Lets not overcomplicate things, it gets silly.

Not really...here's why: For each level after level 10 lets say. You would get 1 perk point to spend in your Chosen Skill Tree. So lets say you did chose Command & Control, that skill tree could have many subskills underneath of it. So in order to fill out the subtrees and open up new abilities, manuevers, ships controls, combat techniques, etc, you would need to spend a Level Perk into that skill.

This is "borrowing" from the WoW skill tree by the way, especially with regard to how you upgrade your Talents per level.

-Avery

[Signalsgt]

Why do you go from Cadet to Warrant officer? WO is an enlisted rank. Ensign is the rank academy graduates are commissioned.

Warrants are not Enlisted. They are limbo between Officers and Enlisted yet still considered an Officer. You salute them and refer to them as Sir, Chief or Mr./Ms. A Warrant Officer is a technical Specialist that usually does not have to deal with the BS that goes along with a Command slot.

[KL0k]

you ppl really need to get off that level-system topic. :rolleyes:
there is no "levels" in this game - so no point in discussing a level system for sto. case solved and closed.

[thefreshjedi]

you ppl really need to get off that level-system topic. :rolleyes:
there is no "levels" in this game - so no point in discussing a level system for sto. case solved and closed.

Cryptic has not finalized this yet, and therefore it's still open to speculation as to how a system might work. And you can't rule-out leveling, as you still need a way to advance in the Starfleet career. I highly doubt you will be granted a Captain level commision right off the bat, as that would remove any and all challenges to overcome in the game, thus ruining the sense of achievement, thus ruining the game.

-Avery

[Varrangian]

Warrants are not Enlisted. They are limbo between Officers and Enlisted yet still considered an Officer. You salute them and refer to them as Sir, Chief or Mr./Ms. A Warrant Officer is a technical Specialist that usually does not have to deal with the BS that goes along with a Command slot.

They are technically "non-commissioned" so they are senior NCO's, but yes they are somewhere in between.

[thefreshjedi]

They are technically "non-commissioned" so they are senior NCO's, but yes they are somewhere in between.

Actually per modern day terms, they are in Military Limbo...almost "untouchable". Warrants in the Army serve both "roles", but neither...they can also sometimes go above and beyond both of the political chains of the NCO and Officer ranks to get their jobs done.

They are considered to be the Elite Professionals in their field though, and are respected and revered amongst both the NCO lines and the Officer Ranks. They are pilots, interpreters, interrogators, mechanics, and a whole slew of other "odd-jobs".

-Avery

[KL0k]

Cryptic has not finalized this yet, and therefore it's still open to speculation as to how a system might work. And you can't rule-out leveling, as you still need a way to advance in the Starfleet career. I highly doubt you will be granted a Captain level commision right off the bat, as that would remove any and all challenges to overcome in the game, thus ruining the sense of achievement, thus ruining the game.

-Avery

its just that you might need to get off this "gaining rank means gaining a level"-type of thinking. maybe the ranks are just cosmetical things and a structure inside the faction, and everything else is missiondriven with rewards that gives you an advancement.. like finding technologies inside ancient ruins or through socializing with another species or adapting the oponents technology through analysis and that sort of things. so there dont even has to be a level system in the regular way. thats what im saying all the time.

[thefreshjedi]

its just that you might need to get off this "gaining rank means gaining a level"-type of thinking. maybe the ranks are just cosmetical things and a structure inside the faction, and everything else is missiondriven with rewards that gives you an advancement.. like finding technologies inside ancient ruins or through socializing with another species or adapting the oponents technology through analysis and that sort of things. so there dont even has to be a level system in the regular way. thats what im saying all the time.

I agree, but you still have to have a way to measure your progress, and experience being the measure, then you have to have an output for that experience, which naturally lends to the idea of "levels". This can be measured in Prestige or Honor as well, regardless, whether you like the term "level" or "prestige", no-matter what you want to call it, you have to have a numerical way to categorize that achievement. "Leveling" is just one of those ways to summarily categorize your progress in an MMO system.

-Avery

[Alaris]

I got the impression from how Jack discribed getting bigger ships, that rank would be based on progression down the "command career path" rather then staight level progress.

[KL0k]

I agree, but you still have to have a way to measure your progress, and experience being the measure, then you have to have an output for that experience, which naturally lends to the idea of "levels". This can be measured in Prestige or Honor as well, regardless, whether you like the term "level" or "prestige", no-matter what you want to call it, you have to have a numerical way to categorize that achievement. "Leveling" is just one of those ways to summarily categorize your progress in an MMO system.

-Avery

i dont think that you got to have a numerical thing for that. even this progression could be mission triggered.
it just doesnt have to go the typical MMO way. try to think outside of that box, and you can find a solution for everything.

[Signalsgt]

They are technically "non-commissioned" so they are senior NCO's, but yes they are somewhere in between.

I will pay you 50 bucks to tell my CW4 he's a Senior NCO. :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_Officer_(United_States)

[thefreshjedi]

I got the impression from how Jack discribed getting bigger ships, that rank would be based on progression down the "command career path" rather then staight level progress.

Again, despite the terminology of "command career path" you still have to measure it by way of something. Experience is the only way to show achievement, and in my opinion cannot be discarded. Every MMOG out there has a measurement for your achievement using some sort of Experience-based type of system. There is no other way to denote "achievements" in an MMOG. It's even arguable that without an experience based system that players will lose interest because they cannot track where they stand, nor can they monitor their individual progress without it.

Blame it on the other big name companies like Sony and Blizzard for creating this system, but even they are not to blame, because technically it was Gary Gigax that started the measurement system in the Original D&D rules.

X Level = Nmonsterexperience(Nquestexperience)/time playing.

-Avery

[thefreshjedi]

i dont think that you got to have a numerical thing for that. even this progression could be mission triggered.
it just doesnt have to go the typical MMO way. try to think outside of that box, and you can find a solution for everything.

The problem is, when you think out of that box you get games like Second Life, etc.

You have to think from a marketing perspective, like all the other big game companies out there: What will get them hooked, and keep them hooked. As much as I like your "out of the box" sentiment, it just doesn't work when applied in real time. That is unless you can think of a way around the visible rewards and trinkets for experience problem. You have to have a way to visually stimulate and keep the player hooked. It's a simple Pavlovian experiment. You ring a bell, you get a treat. You can't get around this equasion. And those that have tried have failed in this business.

-Avery

[KL0k]

so you're saying "not trying is better" in this case? i dont think its that simple. otherwise half of SOE's titles would be worth the money, cause they got all that - and we all know, they are not.

true thing is, there has to be something, people get hooked. but that could work through the atmosphere and beeing true to the lore (the shows n movies and all the eyecandy nowadays hardware is capable) and depth. you can get ppl to the grind with the missionrewards-type, where leveling turns out to be a "must have anyways". i mean.. look at world of warcraft from this point of view. what matters the most there? the equipment and the skills. the levels is just a way towards that goal. now exchange the level requirements, with a scenario where you have to do missions to get the rank you need/want to do the task where you get what you want -> hooked on.

so, to quote my favorite: "dont be the glass - be the water my friend" ;) :)

[Mr.Scott]

What if you have to gain knowledge and experience for yer crew and yerself before moving up? Cause then if yer crew all gain rank, don't you have to go up as well in order to be in command?

[Alaris]

Again, despite the terminology of "command career path" you still have to measure it by way of something. Experience is the only way to show achievement, and in my opinion cannot be discarded. Every MMOG out there has a measurement for your achievement using some sort of Experience-based type of system. There is no other way to denote "achievements" in an MMOG. It's even arguable that without an experience based system that players will lose interest because they cannot track where they stand, nor can they monitor their individual progress without it.

Blame it on the other big name companies like Sony and Blizzard for creating this system, but even they are not to blame, because technically it was Gary Gigax that started the measurement system in the Original D&D rules.

X Level = Nmonsterexperience(Nquestexperience)/time playing.

-Avery

I wasn't saying there wouldn't be levels, infact I would bet that even if there weren't offical levels the players would create a a sudo-level ranking, I'm just saying that I got the impression StarFleet rank would be more complex then just level X= rank Y

[thefreshjedi]

so you're saying "not trying is better" in this case? i dont think its that simple. otherwise half of SOE's titles would be worth the money, cause they got all that - and we all know, they are not.

true thing is, there has to be something, people get hooked. but that could work through the atmosphere and beeing true to the lore (the shows n movies and all the eyecandy nowadays hardware is capable) and depth. you can get ppl to the grind with the missionrewards-type, where leveling turns out to be a "must have anyways". i mean.. look at world of warcraft from this point of view. what matters the most there? the equipment and the skills. the levels is just a way towards that goal. now exchange the level requirements, with a scenario where you have to do missions to get the rank you need/want to do the task where you get what you want -> hooked on.

so, to quote my favorite: "dont be the glass - be the water my friend" ;) :)

Aye, and that was what was also intended with Lyndon Labs epic fail Second Life. They thought that by giving the players sandboxing tools, and the ability to "create their own world within a world" that they would somehow feel compelled to play, meanwhile using the Pavlovian formula, WoW was able to gobble up subscriptions and players in the Millions (i believe they stand somewhere around 10 million or so at the moment, and continue growing)

Do you know how many players are on the Half-Life Servers? Somewhere in the low 100,000's. Which isn't bad mind you, especially considering it's free. The graphics are mediocre, and the gameplay is pretty (yawn) boring. It's really more true to its namesake...a second life.

In order for Cryptic to implement the devices that you are suggesting, they will need significant revenue to generate and maintain that type of environment. The upkeep of programming new content, maintaining the current content, and improving the content will require a dedicated staff, programmers, artisians, developers, support staff, etc. To do so they will need to charge a subscription, and they will also need to justify subscriptions of upwards of $14.95, etc. In order to get people hooked, the rewards have to start immediately. The saliva has to start flowing (so to speak), and the treats have to be made apparent right away.

The method that you're describing is vague. The rewards are not immediately apparent, and there is no way of measuring or tracking your individual performance. If you want a world like you are describing, why not go to Second Life, use their sandboxing interface, and create your own Star Trek world under those rules?

Though I understand what you're saying, and as nice as it sounds, especially being in the true Spirit of the Federation of Planets, and embettering ourselves through achievement, in todays society, you're not going to get far with that type of a design.


-Avery

[thefreshjedi]

What if you have to gain knowledge and experience for yer crew and yerself before moving up? Cause then if yer crew all gain rank, don't you have to go up as well in order to be in command?

Anyone in command of the ship is considered "Captain". There is another thread that discusses this in length. And the general assumption is that your NPC crew will under-rank whatever rank you currently hold.

But no-one knows for sure.

-Avery

[Fluxion]

Cryptic has not finalized this yet, and therefore it's still open to speculation as to how a system might work. And you can't rule-out leveling, as you still need a way to advance in the Starfleet career. I highly doubt you will be granted a Captain level commision right off the bat, as that would remove any and all challenges to overcome in the game, thus ruining the sense of achievement, thus ruining the game.

I agree that we won't start as Captain in rank, but even if we did, that would not "remove any and all challenges to overcome in the game." Not by a long shot. :)

[thefreshjedi]

so, to quote my favorite: "dont be the glass - be the water my friend" ;) :)

Likewise to you sir, the purpose of this forum was to come up with solutions to the Level vs. Rank question, and to make detailed suggestions there-in, not to speculate or squibble over this versus that. Feel free to lay out your own idea of a ranking system if you like. Or if you have a better design, then by all means, please take the time to sketch it out as I have.

That's the intent here is to look at different prospective models of a rank-prestige-honor-ranking system and offer supporting advice of someone elses model, or moreover to create your own.

-Avery

[Trekkie]

This is an interesting take on the important issue of how levels and rank will work. You definitely present some great ideas!

[WinterPark1701]

QFE as this essentially sums up my thoughts. STO should be skill based and not level based. I don't want to be a lvl 35 commander, I want to be a commander with certain skillset that allows me to play the game proficiently but also sets me apart from my counterparts.

I think that best sums up my feelings.

[thefreshjedi]

QFE as this essentially sums up my thoughts. STO should be skill based and not level based. I don't want to be a lvl 35 commander, I want to be a commander with certain skillset that allows me to play the game proficiently but also sets me apart from my counterparts.

"... I want to be a commander with certain skillset that allows me to play the game proficiently but also sets me apart from my counterparts..."

Okay...so...how do you propose to get to commander, with those skillsets and the "proficiencies" that you describe?

Again, this forum is for you to elaborate your own ideas, not just blurt out what you do or don't want to see. Sketch out a system that you think will work?

-Avery

[Lord_Xomic]

I don't really like the idea that levels should equal rank, or else everyone will be running around as admirals or whatever, in a short time span, which ruins the whole point of the rank, and devalues it.

[KL0k]

Aye, and that was what was also intended with Lyndon Labs epic fail Second Life. They thought that by giving the players sandboxing tools, and the ability to "create their own world within a world" that they would somehow feel compelled to play, meanwhile using the Pavlovian formula, WoW was able to gobble up subscriptions and players in the Millions (i believe they stand somewhere around 10 million or so at the moment, and continue growing)

Do you know how many players are on the Half-Life Servers? Somewhere in the low 100,000's. Which isn't bad mind you, especially considering it's free. The graphics are mediocre, and the gameplay is pretty (yawn) boring. It's really more true to its namesake...a second life.

In order for Cryptic to implement the devices that you are suggesting, they will need significant revenue to generate and maintain that type of environment. The upkeep of programming new content, maintaining the current content, and improving the content will require a dedicated staff, programmers, artisians, developers, support staff, etc. To do so they will need to charge a subscription, and they will also need to justify subscriptions of upwards of $14.95, etc. In order to get people hooked, the rewards have to start immediately. The saliva has to start flowing (so to speak), and the treats have to be made apparent right away.

The method that you're describing is vague. The rewards are not immediately apparent, and there is no way of measuring or tracking your individual performance. If you want a world like you are describing, why not go to Second Life, use their sandboxing interface, and create your own Star Trek world under those rules?

Though I understand what you're saying, and as nice as it sounds, especially being in the true Spirit of the Federation of Planets, and embettering ourselves through achievement, in todays society, you're not going to get far with that type of a design.


-Avery

dont get me wrong, but if you as a gamer pickup a star trek title, and dont like the franchise then you're about to throw money out the window anyways. cause people who are just "trying out a new game" wont stay long anyways. they will move on within a snap. so you have to comeup with a lot of content for the franchise-lovers one day or another. if you dont, you wont just lose the casual-tryers, you will lose the hardcore-trekkers too. and that would be the death of the game. then you recieve newsletters like "hey, we're doing you a favor and fuse the servers, so you can play with new ppl and old friends" *cough*lotro*cough*, *cough*ddo*cough*, *cough*matrix*cough*, *cough*inserttheIPyoucanthinkof*cough*.

so.. basicly.. this is the only idea i could comeup with to keep this title alive for a long time. its not just beeing true to the trek-universe, it could openup new ways for other MMO's to get rid of this static "you got to level-grind to equip this shield and weapon first" path the whole genre is based on now.
you have to comeup with interesting ways. not only in the setting, but in gamemechanics too. okay, now someone could comeup with conan, which turned out to be a epic fail. but that is just one idea of manys ppl can create. why not trying to do this? i mean, they got a moneycow right now with coh&cov and upcoming champions, so theres room to try it.

[thefreshjedi]

I don't really like the idea that levels should equal rank, or else everyone will be running around as admirals or whatever, in a short time span, which ruins the whole point of the rank, and devalues it.

And a lot of people say the same thing, but whether you play this game or another, after a while, everyone tops out one way or another. There is only so much you can do for so long. So you have to implement something else besides "Leveling". To get around this you can have prestige maybe, which comes with other additional "Perks" perhaps? Maybe access to better technologies, newer missions, elite quests, ancient technologies? Etc? You have to add value back to the system by allowing even the most highest ranked a way to stay interested.

But this is also why you should allow for at least up to 10 alt(s) per server. This will enable players who do "max-out" to maybe try a different species, race or class, thus recycling the ranks every once and awhile.

You can also have missions in which you "lose" your rank as a result of a certain outcome, such-as violating the Prime Directive, etc. So you don't lose your level (or experience) but you are forced to lose your Rank maybe?

See where I'm going with this?

What can you think of?

-Avery

[Lord_Xomic]

And a lot of people say the same thing, but whether you play this game or another, after a while, everyone tops out one way or another. There is only so much you can do for so long. So you have to implement something else besides "Leveling". To get around this you can have prestige maybe, which comes with other additional "Perks" perhaps? Maybe access to better technologies, newer missions, elite quests, ancient technologies? Etc? You have to add value back to the system by allowing even the most highest ranked a way to stay interested.

But this is also why you should allow for at least up to 10 alt(s) per server. This will enable players who do "max-out" to maybe try a different species, race or class, thus recycling the ranks every once and awhile.

You can also have missions in which you "lose" your rank as a result of a certain outcome, such-as violating the Prime Directive, etc. So you don't lose your level (or experience) but you are forced to lose your Rank maybe?

See where I'm going with this?

What can you think of?

-Avery

But we know that ranks will be pretty much irrelevant anyways, seeing as we all get to fly our own ships; but it seems to me if we're all Admirals, or all flying around in big ships, there isn't much point to flying around in a big ship or being an admiral.

[Manx]

Suppose we had a skill based system (like Oblivion just for the sake of argument), with performance reviews/assessments which could result in promotion. Maybe you request an assessment when you think you are ready for one, or maybe there is some kind of merit/prestige system which determines when you get one. These reviews could be heavily skills based so are a way of making your hard work pay off in a measurable way. They could perhaps take the form of a series of missions, maybe even with an exam of some kind (Starfleet already has some kind of bridge officer exam). The higher the rank, the more prestigious the rewards (ships and such).

Just thinking aloud.

[Lord_Xomic]

Here's a thought, why not make gaining rank as close as possible to how it's done in real Navies?

[Vazuras]

Hey guys, I posted a similiar thread over on STO.net, back in the day, as there was a lot of speculation going around about how the leveling/ranking system might work.

This was an idea I came up with for a leveling system, (as a possibility). Based on the speculation from before, no-one could really decide how you would level or rank-up in STO, and there was a need to be able to gradually increase in ranks from Cadet to Captain and beyond. So I started thinking to myself, how would you go about this in an MMORPG styled system?

Just so we're in agreement, let's assume the following is at least a partial list of the potential ranks we will see in-game, and for you legal people out there: this in-no way reflects anything actually being implemented by Cryptic at the moment.

Cadet

The classes are ranked 5 through 1, 5 being lowest (no rank or insignia) to 1, (4 pips and a "Team Leader badge of merit")

Levels 1-5 (new class gained every 1 levels)

These levels would go quick, as they would be introductory, teaching you basic training, handling of the starship, navigational, comms, and other aspects of running a ship. These could be simple quests, which would be rewarded at the end of the quest, and would get you familiarized with the game.
(There could also be an option to skip this and go directly to Warrant Officer, for alts or returning players)

Ensign (*edit suggested)
Levels 5-20

Beginning at level 5, you would graduate the Academy and gain your first assignment. A small ship with a very small crew complement. This is where you could continue to learn and train out in the smaller solar system areas that you start in. I.e., Federation Ensigns could travel just within the Sol system and a few outlaying areas, continuing their training on-board a ship, at least until being comissioned as a Lieutenant, where they would graduate with a ceremony and obtain a larger ship, with more responsibilities and more crew.
This would also be a critical time to pick a path of personal career development, prior to being commissioned. For instance, do you want Command & Control, Engineering, Science, Medical, etc? And you will learn how to spend points increasing those skill trees. (These can be unlearned later if you don't like that skill path perhaps?)


Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Levels 20-30

Lieutenant, Junior Grade would be a big step, because now you would be give access to your first real starship, a much larger crew than before, and the ability to pick and choose missions better. The danger level would increase with the missions, and so would your responsibility and reward.

Lieutenant
Levels 35-40
Continuing up the chain of command would grant you access to newer, more exciting missions, better equipment and crew, and a much larger area of space to explore.


Lieutenant Commander
Levels 40-45

As a lieutenant Commander you would now be able to access elite missions with a large crew, lets say (40 plus crew-members), and you could assist other Officers on group missions that required larger crews and more ships.


Commander
Levels 45-50

By the time you've reached Commander, you are finally granted access to your first Flagship, such as a Galaxy or Sovereign (or whatever they have available at this time), your missions are much more complicated and riveting than ever before, and now you have much more difficult challenges that require you to sometimes side-step the prime directive, or make judgement calls that could be seen as "questionable" by some.


Captain
Levels 50-60

This is it baby! You've made it all the way...you have had a taste for the big times, and now you're in them. You finally have a unique flagship of your own, and are prepared better than ever to meet the call of duty, to boldly go where no-one has gone before.

This is just a work in progress, and like I said before, this in no-way reflects how Cryptic would actually implement a ranking system, but anyway, feel free to throw any comments this way, what do you guys think/feel about this? And can you add more to it? Like it? Hate it? Etc.?

-Avery

What the hell is this world of warcraft with it's levels......Ummmm I formally disagree!

[Varrangian]

Here's a thought, why not make gaining rank as close as possible to how it's done in real Navies?

You mean based on time in rank, evaluations and at high ranks particularly politics? :rolleyes: Yeah there's a game people will line up for.

[STO_NPG]

QR
If STO is a skill based system, I think skill level and rank should be measured seperately. Skill level should be measured by the number of successes you use your skill. Rank should be measured by the number of objecteives you completed in missions.

So if player choose to ignore mission and go street sweeping, there might be lead to cases where said player is highly skilled but very low rank.

Just my 2 cents.

[Lord_Xomic]

You mean based on time in rank, evaluations and at high ranks particularly politics? :rolleyes: Yeah there's a game people will line up for.

It's also a game where rank would mean something more then a chinese power leveler.

[Varrangian]

It's also a game where rank would mean something more then a chinese power leveler.

Want the name of my Navy recruiter?

[Lord_Xomic]

Want the name of my Navy recruiter?

No.

I want 'rank' to mean something more then a fancy title for high 'level' characters

[Bladedge]

Sorry thefreshjedi but I don’t see how your level system is any different then the level systems of wow, lotro, eq, aoc, etc. You just given a title for every 5-10 levels which the games I mention already do in their own way.

[k.mpok]

Very good post. I have always thought that a /time played type system might work rather well for a rank type lvling system

I agree on the two system approach (Skill, rank)

With a skill system similar to how Oblivion does to increase your class (Medic, Tact/Ops, etc). New access to better specialty equipment and abilities.

With the rank system you gain bigger/better ships/mission/increase in Prestige.



It makes sense in a realistic sense. Think of the military approach to rank (time in grade, time in service, Composite Scores, Conduct Marks, Proficiency Marks) The Promotion Board.

Time in grade = /play (current time in rank)
Time in service = /played (when you started playing. Gives a purpose to remain an account holding member)
Conduct Marks = /prestige (amount of prestige)
Proficiency Marks = /skill lvl (a set amount required per rank lvl)

This also has a few benefits built in.
Time in grade (a system to help casual players to lvl)
Time in service ( a system to benefit the players that stick it out from the beginning IE a Veteran reward)
Conduct Marks (earn prestige by completing missions so this benefits the grinders/speed lvlers)
Proficiency Marks (benefits your teammates as you will atleast be on par with others of your rank, no Captains that has little/no skill in places they should. Helps to eliminate Min/Maxing to a small extent.

This system would also help the Devs as they can adjust requirements behind the scene to control lvling to a small extent (time sink, If no End Game Content then make it so there is no player ready for End Game Content). This would be similar the military Availability part of getting promoted.

Before ppl start replying with post about this being to complex its really not. Assign a set point value that is needed to be promoted to the next rank. Assign values to Time in grade/service, Conduct/Proficiency Marks and once you reach the next rank lvl point you get a new rank.





Bonus Perk for us folks that hope to see PC crews somewhere down the line. Just think we could start out as a fresh Ensign right of out Fleet and work out way up the crew rank/list as we progress in the game. Starting as a Junior officer where once reaching set levels we get added responsibilities Senior officer(who,what is needed for away missions)-Captain command of your own ship.

[Manx]

Maybe there could be the occasional (ever so rare) 'meteoric rise' just to keep things interesting.

I was thinking that, for certain missions, your character could be offered a temporary field promotion; as the task requires a bigger and meaner ship than the one you currently have (mostly just for a chance to try them out). Now, suppose the game kept a score for how well you do; a good score is a success and gets you a typical mission reward, but a really exceptional score results in the promotion becoming permanent (although you don't get to keep the ship :p).

I just think that having occasional opportunities that can be seized for career advancement would raise STO above the traditional 'grind'.

[k.mpok]

Maybe there could be the occasional (ever so rare) 'meteoric rise' just to keep things interesting.

I was thinking that, for certain missions, your character could be offered a temporary field promotion; as the task requires a bigger and meaner ship than the one you currently have (mostly just for a chance to try them out). Now, suppose the game kept a score for how well you do; a good score is a success and gets you a typical mission reward, but a really exceptional score results in the promotion becoming permanent (although you don't get to keep the ship :p).

I just think that having occasional opportunities that can be seized for career advancement would raise STO above the traditional 'grind'.

My only concern with something like this would be the exploitable factor. Once STO has been out for awhile most quest will be detailed word for word on some web site somewhere (never fails for some reason) and then players could just jump from quest to quest that only offered a field promotion (and with the details lined out for them from the web site they are nearly assured a lvl every time.)

[Manx]

My only concern with something like this would be the exploitable factor. Once STO has been out for awhile most quest will be detailed word for word on some web site somewhere (never fails for some reason) and then players could just jump from quest to quest that only offered a field promotion (and with the details lined out for them from the web site they are nearly assured a lvl every time.)

Ah... true.

Perhaps a degree of randomness in missions is called for? I've never liked walkthroughs anyway :D

[WinterPark1701]

I was a commando with the Emprie in SWG and I liked how they did their rank, well the old way any who. You completed missions and you got prestuige with the Empire which you could then turn in for newer and better equipment or if you got enough a promotion. That made it so that it was kind of pointless to just grind up to being say, a Major. Sure you're a major but you still have cheap equipment and no real skills (skills being earned through use rather than bought through leveling.)

[thefreshjedi]

What the hell is this world of warcraft with it's levels......Ummmm I formally disagree!

And you're entirely welcome to your opinion. However, and I'll restate this for everyone here...yet again; especially since many of you have difficulty with reading versus outright flaming:

This is just a proposed model. Any additional input to either correct the model I've created, or (even better) suggest a model of your own, would be preferred. Learning, discovery, and information do not exist in a vacuum. Flaming against this does not help collaborate anything, and stifles creativity. I'm not going to argue with you over this, I just ask that you respectfully add your own thoughts or ideas on how a system could work.

And for those of you who have added your own content or suggested models, it is much appreciated!

Thanks!

-Avery

[thefreshjedi]

I was a commando with the Emprie in SWG and I liked how they did their rank, well the old way any who. You completed missions and you got prestuige with the Empire which you could then turn in for newer and better equipment or if you got enough a promotion. That made it so that it was kind of pointless to just grind up to being say, a Major. Sure you're a major but you still have cheap equipment and no real skills (skills being earned through use rather than bought through leveling.)

I enjoyed the original SWG model too Winter, it was a sad day when Sony released the NGE. Many of us dedicated fans left after that.

-Avery

[Varrangian]

No.

I want 'rank' to mean something more then a fancy title for high 'level' characters

And I've provided a solution to this problem on numerous occasions as well as on the first page of this post.

The problem with making it "realistic" is that again you are simply giving rank to those with the most time on their hands.

Real ranks, especially after the rank of Lt. in the Navy and Capt. in the other branches are often based on complex criteria that could never be quantified for a game. Politics is a big part of this as well, just look at the career of H.R. McMaster for a good example of that.

We will never be able to avoid the fact that some people simply want to burn through content and get to the "end", but if you make the process a multi-tract system it will delay even these people from reaching the end too soon, but not keep people from being rewarded consistently and given the tools and responsibilities that make them feel they have accomplished something.

[WinterPark1701]

I enjoyed the original SWG model too Winter, it was a sad day when Sony released the NGE. Many of us dedicated fans left after that.

-Avery

I was dissapointed. I quit playing for about a year when I was sent over seas with the Air Force. When I came back they had changed the game around and I never really was able to get into it the way I once did.

[thefreshjedi]

My only concern with something like this would be the exploitable factor. Once STO has been out for awhile most quest will be detailed word for word on some web site somewhere (never fails for some reason) and then players could just jump from quest to quest that only offered a field promotion (and with the details lined out for them from the web site they are nearly assured a lvl every time.)

Well that is to be expected with any MMOG these days. Sadly there are some that will always cheat to get ahead, simply for no other reason than they are lazy, and/or do not have the time to really spend upwards of 8+ hours a day playing the game. Therefore they take shortcuts to get around the hassle of learning their own way through. (I myself am guilty of this from time to time, as time will only afford me "casual play").

But that being said, this further feeds my ideas on the market out there. This is why most MMOG's have to be Pavlovian in their approach. For those of you kids who haven't taken psychology out there: Pavlov was a Russian (i believe Russian) psychiatrist that learned from experimenting with dogs that if you were to ring a bell, and then give them a treat, eventually you could just "ring the bell" and the dog would begin to salavitate. This experiment meant that the dog had become "conditioned" to receiving a treat at the sound of the bell.

The same is true of MMOG's today. You do x,y,z quests, you get a reward, and thus you suddenly have a "Pavlovian" environment where kids and adults feel a sense of "accomplishment" by being rewarded with visual "treats" for their efforts in a virtual world, where tangible goods are irrelevent.

*edit - What's more now that I think of it, these external "Self-Help" sites like Allakhazam, or Thottbot, do nothing more than add back to that concept of Pavlovian gaming simply by highlighting or detailing the rewards for a given quest chain, mission completion, or level accomplishment.

-Avery

[thefreshjedi]

Sorry thefreshjedi but I don’t see how your level system is any different then the level systems of wow, lotro, eq, aoc, etc. You just given a title for every 5-10 levels which the games I mention already do in their own way.

I'm trying to answer these as best I can, all I can say is, "read" the meat of this forum, as I've already explained exactly why this model I've created is similiar. Also, please add a model, or a suggestion of your own if you can. That would be more constructive.

Thanks

-Avery

[bobh]

Cryptic has not finalized this yet, and therefore it's still open to speculation as to how a system might work. And you can't rule-out leveling, as you still need a way to advance in the Starfleet career. I highly doubt you will be granted a Captain level commision right off the bat, as that would remove any and all challenges to overcome in the game, thus ruining the sense of achievement, thus ruining the game.

-Avery

So does leveling (or advancement) of any sort based on time. My years in the service saw many folks with tons of time in service/time in grade but they'd miss promotions from either bad evals, poor test scores or a burnt bridge.

Gotta go with nixing any concept of "levels" unless it is veiled in skill quantity and quality and a measurement of standing based on such attributes as command, prestige, presence....

[Luso]

I will mension the experience and time-leveling Skills.

There should be groups of Skills and in each group skills that you can level using adquired experience or playtime ingame.

If youre not ingame there should be time-adquired experience points accumulating to your account as long you pay it. Bonus experience points adquirement for mission running, pvp, exploration.

Exemple:

Groups:
-Command: -Analisys, -Clarity, -Logic, -Empathy...and so on...
-Engineering: -Shield Management, Energy Management, Damage Control, ...aso
-Medical
-Security
-Trade
-Science
-Spaceship
-Industry
.
.
.


Ranking a player is like "Taggin" him and will put out the "surprise" effect.... in PVP situations it´s redicoules if you can see from far..."ouch... let´s go away before he kills me".

Of course beeing in "unkown" space should bring more experience point because the risk is higher to be killed and losing your ship-assets. BTW...you should be able to loot enemys assets ;)

It´s only my humild oppinion!

[thefreshjedi]

So does leveling (or advancement) of any sort based on time. My years in the service saw many folks with tons of time in service/time in grade but they'd miss promotions from either bad evals, poor test scores or a burnt bridge.

Gotta go with nixing any concept of "levels" unless it is veiled in skill quantity and quality and a measurement of standing based on such attributes as command, prestige, presence....

For the record, I don't think you could do a "rank-over-time" system simply for no other reason than that would frustrate the players that play casually, as they would never feel a sense of "accomplishment", get bored and eventually quit.

Call it "leveling", call it "prestige" call it "widget hopping" whatever floats your boat, it doesn't matter, the terminology is all the same in the end. Because you are still "leveling" when you increase in either rank or stature.

This could be a duality based system as I've been trying to suggest, where you have a subset ranking under leveling, the subset would be "prestige" or honor in my model.

If you want to visually represent it you could depict it as two graphical bars on the lower portion of the screen maybe:

--------------------------------------------834/1000 xp===============================(Level)
------------------------------------------------------------------934/1000 xp==================(Rank)

So in the above examples, the Blue color could represent physical level, while the bottom Purple line could represent rank in level maybe?

Just an idea...

-Avery

[thefreshjedi]

I will mension the experience and time-leveling Skills.

There should be groups of Skills and in each group skills that you can level using adquired experience or playtime ingame.

If youre not ingame there should be time-adquired experience points accumulating to your account as long you pay it. Bonus experience points adquirement for mission running, pvp, exploration.

Exemple:

Groups:
-Command: -Analisys, -Clarity, -Logic, -Empathy...and so on...
-Engineering: -Shield Management, Energy Management, Damage Control, ...aso
-Medical
-Security
-Trade
-Science
-Spaceship
-Industry
.
.
.


Ranking a player is like "Taggin" him and will put out the "surprise" effect.... in PVP situations it´s redicoules if you can see from far..."ouch... let´s go away before he kills me".

Of course beeing in "unkown" space should bring more experience point because the risk is higher to be killed and losing your ship-assets. BTW...you should be able to loot enemys assets ;)

It´s only my humild oppinion!

I like your suggestion Luso, that's a nice model idea...and you're right, there should be individual achievements maybe for each of the different professions, like Engineering or Command and Control, each with their own subset of rewards or perks.

Also, for the record, I agree that in PvP, it would defeat the purpose of "seeing" your enemies level or rank, but it's always good to have a visual way of knowing how strong your opponent is. So you have to create a way to "warn" or prepare yourself before attacking, such that you know what you're in for when you do attack a higher level, or more experienced opponent.

-Avery

[Sir_Cedric]

Sorry I missed this topic, but I will post what I said over on the other one here on this topic:


Examples of both enlisted and officer Federation ranks:

Enlisted ranks
master chief petty officer
senior chief petty officer
chief petty officer
petty officers (specialists 1st, 2nd and 3rd class):
sensor analyst
technician
yeoman
crewman (1st, 2nd and 3rd class)

Officer ranks
Cadet* - Academy rank only (Cadet Fourth Class, Cadet Third Class, Cadet Second Class)

Ensign
Lieutenant junior grade
Lieutenant
Lieutenant commander
Commander
Captain
Commodore (aka rear admiral, lower half)
Rear admiral (upper half)
Vice admiral
Admiral
Fleet admiral

Now from what CS is saying we will command ships, so I don't see enlisted being added in at launch, but there is hope of it after launch. Remember Miles O'Brien was an enlisted person, not an officer rank on DS9.

Anyway, with each rank we gain, what do you see happening for your guy in the game? IMO I believe we will start off in ships like the Delta Flyer, or run a bouts as Ensigns. And once we gain higher ranks, we will have different ships offered up to us, and more crews to pick from. Who would you pick as your crew mate on the Flyer? Maybe you can pick you 1st NPC to help crew with you, and they stick with you until you get up to captain. So lets hear how you see things happening. This is only a guess from our point of view. So lets hear what you see happening. A big what if.

Ok I will add this bit more. Even if like other are saying, we start off as a Lieutenant junior grade, your mission types, and the crew you can get should be reflected by your rank. So the types of NPCs you get at Lieutenant junior grade, will not be the same at Fleet admiral. Same with the ship types you can use, and/ or keep. But at the sametime, IMO I feel you should be able to keep any ship you want to stick with, if it's your favorite type of ship, no matter what your rank is in Starfleet. Same with your crew that server under you, they should follow you to whatever ship type you have.

After all just because your get a higher rank, doesn't mean you have to change ships, but the option should always be there to do so.

[Manx]

Maybe this is veering from the topic a little bit, but personally I would prefer more subtle indicators of progress. For example, instead of having an exp counter, have a gradually changing tone in your messages from Starfleet (or High Command). Anyone remember they way the ship crew reacted to you in Starlancer as you gained ranks, or moved up the kill board? I always liked those little touches. I guess I would just like to have a bit of distance between me and 'the Grind'; I realize it'll be there in some form, I just don't like having to keep score, so to speak.

But now the big question is... does any of that make sense, or am I just not getting enough sleep? :D

[babanathie]

Is Cryptic going with a level system or a skill based system?

[Sythian]

Hey guys, I posted a similiar thread over on STO.net, back in the day, as there was a lot of speculation going around about how the leveling/ranking system might work.

This was an idea I came up with for a leveling system, (as a possibility). Based on the speculation from before, no-one could really decide how you would level or rank-up in STO, and there was a need to be able to gradually increase in ranks from Cadet to Captain and beyond. So I started thinking to myself, how would you go about this in an MMORPG styled system?

Just so we're in agreement, let's assume the following is at least a partial list of the potential ranks we will see in-game, and for you legal people out there: this in-no way reflects anything actually being implemented by Cryptic at the moment.

Cadet

The classes are ranked 5 through 1, 5 being lowest (no rank or insignia) to 1, (4 pips and a "Team Leader badge of merit")

Levels 1-5 (new class gained every 1 levels)

These levels would go quick, as they would be introductory, teaching you basic training, handling of the starship, navigational, comms, and other aspects of running a ship. These could be simple quests, which would be rewarded at the end of the quest, and would get you familiarized with the game.
(There could also be an option to skip this and go directly to Warrant Officer, for alts or returning players)

Ensign (*edit suggested)
Levels 5-20

Beginning at level 5, you would graduate the Academy and gain your first assignment. A small ship with a very small crew complement. This is where you could continue to learn and train out in the smaller solar system areas that you start in. I.e., Federation Ensigns could travel just within the Sol system and a few outlaying areas, continuing their training on-board a ship, at least until being comissioned as a Lieutenant, where they would graduate with a ceremony and obtain a larger ship, with more responsibilities and more crew.
This would also be a critical time to pick a path of personal career development, prior to being commissioned. For instance, do you want Command & Control, Engineering, Science, Medical, etc? And you will learn how to spend points increasing those skill trees. (These can be unlearned later if you don't like that skill path perhaps?)


Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Levels 20-30

Lieutenant, Junior Grade would be a big step, because now you would be give access to your first real starship, a much larger crew than before, and the ability to pick and choose missions better. The danger level would increase with the missions, and so would your responsibility and reward.

Lieutenant
Levels 35-40
Continuing up the chain of command would grant you access to newer, more exciting missions, better equipment and crew, and a much larger area of space to explore.


Lieutenant Commander
Levels 40-45

As a lieutenant Commander you would now be able to access elite missions with a large crew, lets say (40 plus crew-members), and you could assist other Officers on group missions that required larger crews and more ships.


Commander
Levels 45-50

By the time you've reached Commander, you are finally granted access to your first Flagship, such as a Galaxy or Sovereign (or whatever they have available at this time), your missions are much more complicated and riveting than ever before, and now you have much more difficult challenges that require you to sometimes side-step the prime directive, or make judgement calls that could be seen as "questionable" by some.


Captain
Levels 50-60

This is it baby! You've made it all the way...you have had a taste for the big times, and now you're in them. You finally have a unique flagship of your own, and are prepared better than ever to meet the call of duty, to boldly go where no-one has gone before.

This is just a work in progress, and like I said before, this in no-way reflects how Cryptic would actually implement a ranking system, but anyway, feel free to throw any comments this way, what do you guys think/feel about this? And can you add more to it? Like it? Hate it? Etc.?

-Avery

Only problem with this discussion is that it's been stated that there are no levels. This will be a skill base game.

[babanathie]

Sorry I missed this topic, but I will post what I said over on the other one here on this topic:


Examples of both enlisted and officer Federation ranks:

Enlisted ranks
master chief petty officer
senior chief petty officer
chief petty officer
petty officers (specialists 1st, 2nd and 3rd class):
sensor analyst
technician
yeoman
crewman (1st, 2nd and 3rd class)

Officer ranks
Cadet* - Academy rank only (Cadet Fourth Class, Cadet Third Class, Cadet Second Class)

Ensign
Lieutenant junior grade
Lieutenant
Lieutenant commander
Commander
Captain
Commodore (aka rear admiral, lower half)
Rear admiral (upper half)
Vice admiral
Admiral
Fleet admiral

Now from what CS is saying we will command ships, so I don't see enlisted being added in at launch, but there is hope of it after launch. Remember Miles O'Brien was an enlisted person, not an officer rank on DS9.

Anyway, with each rank we gain, what do you see happening for your guy in the game? IMO I believe we will start off in ships like the Delta Flyer, or run a bouts as Ensigns. And once we gain higher ranks, we will have different ships offered up to us, and more crews to pick from. Who would you pick as your crew mate on the Flyer? Maybe you can pick you 1st NPC to help crew with you, and they stick with you until you get up to captain. So lets hear how you see things happening. This is only a guess from our point of view. So lets hear what you see happening. A big what if.

Ok I will add this bit more. Even if like other are saying, we start off as a Lieutenant junior grade, your mission types, and the crew you can get should be reflected by your rank. So the types of NPCs you get at Lieutenant junior grade, will not be the same at Fleet admiral. Same with the ship types you can use, and/ or keep. But at the sametime, IMO I feel you should be able to keep any ship you want to stick with, if it's your favorite type of ship, no matter what your rank is in Starfleet. Same with your crew that server under you, they should follow you to whatever ship type you have.

After all just because your get a higher rank, doesn't mean you have to change ships, but the option should always be there to do so.

You missed the Warrant Officer ranks, and I think you over did the enlisted ranks. Assuming that the Star Trek universe keeps naval traditions, a yeoman was not a rank it was more of a job designation (or as we call them in the Navy - a rate-). For example a corpman (hospital tech pretty much) is also a seaman. Technician is also more of a job designation along with sensor tech. Naval tradition makes it to where you have a rank (crewman, petty officer, etc) and a rating (which defines your job, like Gunner's Mate, Firecontrolman, Engineman, Electronics Technician). These two concepts are often combined (i.e. a petty officer 2nd class with a Firecontrolman rating would be a Firecontrolman 2nd Class or FC2) in the modern day navy.

I think your enlisted ranks should be adjusted to:

crewperson recruit
crewperson apprentice
crewperson
petty officer (3rd to 1st class)
chief petty officer
senior chief petty officer
master chief petty officer

[Lord_Xomic]

And I've provided a solution to this problem on numerous occasions as well as on the first page of this post.

The problem with making it "realistic" is that again you are simply giving rank to those with the most time on their hands.

Real ranks, especially after the rank of Lt. in the Navy and Capt. in the other branches are often based on complex criteria that could never be quantified for a game. Politics is a big part of this as well, just look at the career of H.R. McMaster for a good example of that.

We will never be able to avoid the fact that some people simply want to burn through content and get to the "end", but if you make the process a multi-tract system it will delay even these people from reaching the end too soon, but not keep people from being rewarded consistently and given the tools and responsibilities that make them feel they have accomplished something.

How about this then.

While the ranks up to captain can be easily gained (well, in theory) Higher ranks, like Admiral and such have to be given to you by one of the moderators for 'out standing' actions; anyone of the rank of Captain can be nominated to admiral, but only a few will ever get promoted to that rank.

[Varrangian]

How about this then.

While the ranks up to captain can be easily gained (well, in theory) Higher ranks, like Admiral and such have to be given to you by one of the moderators for 'out standing' actions; anyone of the rank of Captain can be nominated to admiral, but only a few will ever get promoted to that rank.

My system would actually level Adrimals for fleets only and the rank itself would be more "ceremonial".

If you are suggesting a system that puts players in command of others on an involuntary basis, I can never support that. Note I am not saying you are suggesting this, I honestly can't tell if that is what you mean.

Voluntary servitude is fine, but putting player characters in a position of authority over other players without consent is never going to work on the scale of an MMO.

[babanathie]

Very good post. I have always thought that a /time played type system might work rather well for a rank type lvling system

I agree on the two system approach (Skill, rank)

With a skill system similar to how Oblivion does to increase your class (Medic, Tact/Ops, etc). New access to better specialty equipment and abilities.

With the rank system you gain bigger/better ships/mission/increase in Prestige.



It makes sense in a realistic sense. Think of the military approach to rank (time in grade, time in service, Composite Scores, Conduct Marks, Proficiency Marks) The Promotion Board.

Time in grade = /play (current time in rank)
Time in service = /played (when you started playing. Gives a purpose to remain an account holding member)
Conduct Marks = /prestige (amount of prestige)
Proficiency Marks = /skill lvl (a set amount required per rank lvl)

This also has a few benefits built in.
Time in grade (a system to help casual players to lvl)
Time in service ( a system to benefit the players that stick it out from the beginning IE a Veteran reward)
Conduct Marks (earn prestige by completing missions so this benefits the grinders/speed lvlers)
Proficiency Marks (benefits your teammates as you will atleast be on par with others of your rank, no Captains that has little/no skill in places they should. Helps to eliminate Min/Maxing to a small extent.

This system would also help the Devs as they can adjust requirements behind the scene to control lvling to a small extent (time sink, If no End Game Content then make it so there is no player ready for End Game Content). This would be similar the military Availability part of getting promoted.

Before ppl start replying with post about this being to complex its really not. Assign a set point value that is needed to be promoted to the next rank. Assign values to Time in grade/service, Conduct/Proficiency Marks and once you reach the next rank lvl point you get a new rank.





Bonus Perk for us folks that hope to see PC crews somewhere down the line. Just think we could start out as a fresh Ensign right of out Fleet and work out way up the crew rank/list as we progress in the game. Starting as a Junior officer where once reaching set levels we get added responsibilities Senior officer(who,what is needed for away missions)-Captain command of your own ship.

I actually kind of like this.

[VainEldritch]

I detest "levels".

Levels are the single worst way to judge the progress of a character. Progression should be via experience that is used to buy skills in different profession trees - this leads to far greater character freedom and diversity.

As I understand it, STO will thankfully be a skill-based game and will not have "levels"...

[thefreshjedi]

I actually kind of like this.

I liked k.mpok's model too Babanathie, it's very easy to follow.

-Avery

[thefreshjedi]

I detest "levels".

Levels are the single worst way to judge the progress of a character. Progression should be via experience that is used to buy skills in different profession trees - this leads to far greater character freedom and diversity.

As I understand it, STO will thankfully be a skill-based game and will not have "levels"...

Okay, I'll say it again, especially since some of you are having difficulty with the concept....

It doesn't matter whether you call it "levels", "skills", "tick-marks", "notches", "widgetcaps", "beer-caps", "floating oaties", "flying saucers", etc.

Whatever Name you give to it is irrelevent. The point is: you are still gaining x numerical achievement for y personal progress in-game. And it has to be represented by something, be it Prestige, Honor, Levels, Rank, "SKILLS", or any other namesake device.

Also, you are entitled to your opinions, and we appreciate them, but what is more constructive, and what I've been trying to get people to do, is create your own model and post it here so that others may compare, add, substract and critique each others work.

Thanks

-Avery

[Galv]

There's a way to do it without having leveling so to speak, how about skill point based using mission to progress, not my ideas but check out this thread:

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=9204

Time we moved away from levels and have a challenging way to play an MMO instead of a grind fest.

[thefreshjedi]

There's a way to do it without having leveling so to speak, how about skill point based using mission to progress, not my ideas but check out this thread:

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=9204

Time we moved away from levels and have a challenging way to play an MMO instead of a grind fest.

Yeah Galv, I guess you didn't see my post in there huh? Cedric added that post to this post since he had a nice model...

Reading is Fundamental, and apparently: optional.

-Avery

[Galv]

Yeah Galv, I guess you didn't see my post in there huh? Cedric added that post to this post since he had a nice model...

Reading is Fundamental, and apparently: optional.

-Avery

Yea fair enough but i'm not for a level based system so i found the other thread more interesting. And yes reading is optional (just like manners are optional apparently) if it doesn't interest me i won't read it.

[babanathie]

Okay, I'll say it again, especially since some of you are having difficulty with the concept....

It doesn't matter whether you call it "levels", "skills", "tick-marks", "notches", "widgetcaps", "beer-caps", "floating oaties", "flying saucers", etc.

Whatever Name you give to it is irrelevent. The point is: you are still gaining x numerical achievement for y personal progress in-game. And it has to be represented by something, be it Prestige, Honor, Levels, Rank, "SKILLS", or any other namesake device.

Also, you are entitled to your opinions, and we appreciate them, but what is more constructive, and what I've been trying to get people to do, is create your own model and post it here so that others may compare, add, substract and critique each others work.

Thanks

-Avery

Okay, I'll say it again. The use of the word level gives many MMO'ers a certain preconceived notion as to what kind of system will be used; just like the the words skill based give a different preconceived notion. Using the word level will continue to give people that view, and the people that are not fans of a level based system (like me) will continue to fight the notion or other peoples attempt to make the game (at least preception wise) into that narrow minded concept.

If the game is skill based as the developers claim, I would stay way from the word level as much as possible. The use of that word, especially in the format presented in the OP, is misleading to many people that are new to the STO community, and people like me will point that out at more often than not.

[k.mpok]

I am not a fan of a level based system any more then most of you are BUT a skill based system is not always the answe eitherr.

Take the game 9Dragons or Oblivion they are both skill based yet at the same time they are lvl based games in disguise. It takes x amount of skill Y to reach another lvl. And perhaps the worse part of a true skill based game is the skill grinding. Those players that stand in one spot and spam there keys (key jamming, micros, etc) to repeatedly use one or two skills over and over.

Thats why I see a two fold approach being a good idea. Take my post above for example. You "level" rank up not only by a leveling system approach but by a skill based system. At the same time if each rank had a hard cap for skills (Say Lieutenant, Junior Grade skills would cap out at 50 or what ever else the Devs wanted) then you would prevent the micro/skill key spammers as they would still need to increase there Time in grade/service, Conduct/Proficency Marks. With the rank/skill and military approach leveling/skill up/progression in skill or power (what ever you want to call it) will be unique enough that it would no longer feel like a plain leveling or plain skill based system.

[chuck258456]

i think this game should be at the least, relatively long term, kinda like the "leveling" system of EVE, where you dont technically have to do everything, you set a skill and train and you can leave forever if you want


so, if you think about it it would be an ok idea, because ive heard that in games like WoW **shudders*** you can ***** your way up to like lvl 70 in a few weeks time and then your considered "elite" cmon, thats just stupid, some people dont have 18 hours a day to play video games

anyway, i think it should kind of adapt from what EVE has, that is one of the thing im sure EVERY EVE-Online player would agree on, the "leveling" system of the game, you dont have to play anything, it makes the game easier on casual players

i think also, it should kind of use the same system EVE has

in EVE, you have a skill, and the skil has a training multiplier for each level (up to level 5)

something along these lines:

Lvl 1: takes about 15 minutes
Lvl 2: can take about 2-3 hours
Lvl 3: can take up to 20 hours to train
Lvl 4: can take up to 3-4 days to train
Lvl 5: can take up to 30 days or more to train

this is how it works in EVE

i think the ranking system you have is good, and it should work like this, each new rank requires more in game time to "train" up to, with the higher ranks (like lieuteant commander, commander, and captain) should take progressively longer to train up to each time, so you spend more time in each rank, and it would add to more "realism" as well (picard has been in starfleet for 35 years and he is only a captain, and riker has been in for like 15-20 years and is just a commander, so it should take time to get to the higher ranks (more rank = more privelages)

this way would work imo for the casual player

you would also have to do a set number of "missions" to, along with a leveling timer

1 "assignment" from ensign to lieutenatn junior grade
at least 3 "assignments" junior grade to lieutenant
at least 6 "assignments" from lieutenant to lieutenant commander
at least 8 "assignments" lieutenant commander to commander

at least 10 "assignments" from commander to captain


so, while the timer will always be going, you must pass these pre-requisites to get your new rank, it would still help w/ the casual player

and if a casual player isnt on enough to pass the next amount of missions, then tbh, he doesnt need the rank of captain, as it would be a waste to give someone who is only once or twice a week command of a galaxy class ship (no offense to any casual players in here btw, just saying)

the timer to get up to captain imo should be around 6 months time (assuming the person could meet the mission requisits in time) now, the mission requisits might seem a bit extreme, a captain needs alot of experience if he's going to command his own crew and have the lives of hundreds of people on his hands

the timers (just winging it here)

ensign > lieutenant junior grade: 1 week
lieutenant junior grade > lieutenant: 2 weeks
lieutenant > lieutenant commander: 4 weeks
lieutenant commander > commander: 6 weeks
commander > captain: 9 weeks

imo, these should be the timers, this is the minimal amount of time you have to be that rank


sorry if i /hijacked your thread btw, but its a good idea nonethe less, i just thought i would throw it out there, it seems to work w/ eve, but since we dont have "skills" in STO, i just kinda adapted it from EVE to STO

again, not trying to hijack your thread:(

[Merius]

I posted this on another thread - but I think its more applicabable here:

I just wanted this to be in the right place ^_^

Quote by Merius: What command is really about, is how you lead, and how you manage your crew. The only reason you are promoted is because you lead & manage well and the military wants you to lead & manage more people. (it does have to do with desisions, but lets not get too much into that.)

So, if you are a good leader, in effect you are getting more people under your command. In the game as we advance we will probably get more and more NPC Bridge Crew officers for our ships.

In example:
Captain - 6 NPC Bridge Crew Officers
Commander - 5 NPC Bridge Crew Officers
Lieutenant Commander - 4 NPC Bridge Crew Officers
Lieutenant - 3 NPC Bridge Crew Officers
Ensign - 2 NPC Bridge Crew Officers

This seems reasonable to everyone so far?

Now what happens when we have the option to go for Commodore or even Admiral? Granted many would say that players shouldn't go to those levels - but I would like to argue they can. Starfleet might award players who reach Commodore level with a second ship.

So at Commodore - I have my Command Ship & my Fleet Ship #1.

Command Ship - 6 NPC Bridge Crew Officers + Me
Ranks:
Commander
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant
Ensign
Fleet Ship #1 - 4 NPC Bridge Crew Officers + Option for me to board.
Ranks:
Commander
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant
Ensign

(This is where I want FlatFingers to come in)

Now how would the second npc ship under my command interact in the game? Could I have it fly beside me while I'm traveling and exploring the galaxy? Could I have it guard an area while I am away, offline, or relaxing? Could I have it mine for me? Could I take it into combat with me? And the most cool thing would be: can I assign it to follow one of my allies and help or guard him? Can I pocket it while I'm not using it so it just dissapears? What make and class of ship is it?

I have reached a new command level, I'm just leading & managing more crew members.

& What happens with I reach Admiral Rank? Do I get to have an extended version of that? Do I get to have my command ship & 2 or 3 fleet ships, to what limit are we talking?

Our essenchal ranks are as follows:
Admiral
Commodore
Captain
Commander
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant
Ensign



And then this:

Merius:
I was reading a post about Space Stations, and I felt it bought into my whole idea of Command is more about how many NPC's you can manage. Theirfore the higher your rank, the more NPC bridge crew members you get, and you can start assigning them to other ships (in which you would then control) and finally space stations.


Everyone is going to say, but Siscko was a commander of a space barge! (Well I'm going to argue that he was a NPC Bridge Crew member assigned by an admiral)


__________________________________________________ _
start...


Developers create 1 million or 2 million set locations in the galaxy that space stations (barges) can be built. Meaning that their are open locations for mining, traid, or whathave you over M Class Planets, Gas Giants, Open Space, Worm Holes, Etc.

When a space station is created, thats a claim over territory, jjust like when DS9 moved to the Worm hole to claim it.


My argument comes in, at the higher rank you are, the more NPC's you control/command/manage.


Vice Admiral - (6NPC Bridge Crew (Ship 1) , 4 NPC Bridge Crew (Ship 2),
Options: (Ship 3 - 4 NPC Bridge Crew) or - Space Station 1 (5 NPC Bridge Crew)
Space Station 2 (4 NPC Bridge Crew)

Rear Admiral - (6NPC Bridge Crew (Ship 1) , 4 NPC Bridge Crew (Ship 2),
Options: (Ship 3 - 4 NPC Bridge Crew) or - Space Station 1 (4 NPC Bridge Crew)

Commodore - 6 NPC Bridge Crew (Ship 1) 4 NPC Bridge Crew (Ship 2)
Captain - 6 NPC Bridge Crew Officers
Commander - 5 NPC Bridge Crew Officers
Lieutenant Commander - 4 NPC Bridge Crew Officers
Lieutenant - 3 NPC Bridge Crew Officers
Ensign - 2 NPC Bridge Crew Officers




You'll notice that I have added the option to create space stations when you reach the Admiral level - this is good for a few reasons, tactical and explorable and player interaction reasons.

Tactical because player fleets could ban together and build tactical station types in contested areas, where the Klingon boarder or PvP areas depend on higher ranked players building stations and upgrading them as they go along. Get more Admirals in your fleet and have more stations stake claimes.

Explorable areas because some starfleet officers will want to build arays or science stations out in uncharted space.

Interaction areas because some areas will be highly traveled for traid or quests and players will want to get more resorces out of those.


This will give everyone the oprotunity to build at least 1 space station if they want one, and the galaxy is big enough for 1 million or 2 million players, so I think this is pheasable.

Also it adds a measure of tactics for Admirals rank, because they would be placing their flag in areas that can be highly contested or areas that they want the federation to explore, or they could be building stuff that no one has ever built before.


You can find the entire discussion here:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=9062&page=5


Thanks everyone!

[Merius]

Oh and... I think they should re-enstate the Commodore Rank:

We could so much as even argue that they bring back the Commodore rank. Because in Star Trek the origional series, that was more or less a cold war time with the klingons.

Yes they removed the Commodore Rank after that series was over, but in ST:TNG - Starfleet was no longer in a cold war with the klingons.

Now we are back to that very predicoment - time to bring back the Commodore Rank.

Reason being...

When you are short on good captains, but you have crew members - telling a captain to command two ships at once is a big thing. So you promote that Captain to Commodore, and say now you are commanding two ships, because we might go to war at any moment.

[WinterPark1701]

I'm in the Army and I've never understood (or really liked) the idea of two grades of rear-admiral. I guess its something akin ot LTC and COL in the Army but again, I've always liked the idea of ranks being distinctive and not having terms repeat in ranks as rank is a singulary defineing part of military life. So, I say rather than rear-admiral (Lower) and rear-admiral (Upper) just have Commodore and Rear adimral for the one and two star (or pip) ranks respectivly.

[Nerdock]

First off: Avery, thanks for all your hard work and having to take all of this into consideration. also: im no designer, but if i learned anything from bioware, its to have your skills increase your xp, defeating enemies in pvp = xp (similar to planetside) if everything gave a SIMILAR amount of xp, higher for group and what not, that would let everyone respectively use whatever comes natural to them to level.
ex: in KOTOR (i mean and it kinda won game of the year...) using security gives you xp, killing enemies gives you xp and negotiating successfully gives you xp. depending on your interest in the game, whether it be exploration, combat or commerce (and others) its not forcing you to bust out missions to get the highest level of xp. thats what thottbot and wowhead do, give people the best way to get xp, well if there is no best way. BAM, it will be involving if people can do a little bit of everything and get a similar amount of xp as a pose to doing ONLY combat, or ONLY research/crafting. kinda know what i mean? :/

-Nerd

*edit* im not sure if this has been taken into large amounts of consideration but, if some sort of development or crafting tool is used, would xp be gained from inventing new technology, really differentiating the players and their styles. if one sits in a corner and makes/invents guns and new ships he should get xp for it, not having to use them NECESSARILY. also KUDOS to the personal points of "xp" and command styles of "xp." to use a taboo acronym...

[Nasedo]

thefreshjedi...

the Dev team said they wont use the same old Level base system as all the other MMo use... it may be more like SWG skill system i believe, your system looks good but there not useing level base system sorry

Nasedo

[thefreshjedi]

First off: Avery, thanks for all your hard work and having to take all of this into consideration. also: im no designer, but if i learned anything from bioware, its to have your skills increase your xp, defeating enemies in pvp = xp (similar to planetside) if everything gave a SIMILAR amount of xp, higher for group and what not, that would let everyone respectively use whatever comes natural to them to level.
ex: in KOTOR (i mean and it kinda won game of the year...) using security gives you xp, killing enemies gives you xp and negotiating successfully gives you xp. depending on your interest in the game, whether it be exploration, combat or commerce (and others) its not forcing you to bust out missions to get the highest level of xp. thats what thottbot and wowhead do, give people the best way to get xp, well if there is no best way. BAM, it will be involving if people can do a little bit of everything and get a similar amount of xp as a pose to doing ONLY combat, or ONLY research/crafting. kinda know what i mean? :/

-Nerd

*edit* im not sure if this has been taken into large amounts of consideration but, if some sort of development or crafting tool is used, would xp be gained from inventing new technology, really differentiating the players and their styles. if one sits in a corner and makes/invents guns and new ships he should get xp for it, not having to use them NECESSARILY. also KUDOS to the personal points of "xp" and command styles of "xp." to use a taboo acronym...


I completely agree Nerd, this leans on the SWG model prior to the NGE a little, which was an excellent model...I'm still /scratching my head as to why they stopped this. The "XP" quotient of the gaming mechanics has to be incorporated for every possible use of valid skill there is, thus widening the field of possibility for those that don't want to just "grind" their way to the top. There should be other ways that are intriguing and make you feel a sense of accomplishment. I mean there will always be grinders out there that will take advantage of the easiest course or path to the top. But again, that really ruins the experience overall in my opinion. I think part of the fun in getting to your destination is the journey, and how you spend your time along the way.

I also wrote another model idea in this forum here http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=266194#post266194 (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=266194#post266194), which I think might actually work really well to from a level to rank standpoint, which will assist you with dealing with penalizing players who violate the Prime Directive, or are busted down in rank somehow, and how they can earn it back maybe?

I appreciate everyone who has contributed to this post, your ideas are all equally valuable.

Honestly, I forgot about this post, so thanks for the bump, I had to re-read it to remember everything, and I went back over it and can't believe I wrote it...lol...shows how good my memory is anymore these days.

-avery

[Nerdock]

hee hee. I seem to be a little behind the times when it comes to posting ideas in "seti alpha 5" aka barren, threads. xD

[thefreshjedi]

Necro-bumping for posterity....

I saw some issues arise in another thread which I thought that I would highlight this here, since people were concerned about Admiralty/Politics, etc.

-avery

[wootage]

Hey guys, I posted a similiar thread over on STO.net, back in the day, as there was a lot of speculation going around about how the leveling/ranking system might work.

This was an idea I came up with for a leveling system, (as a possibility). Based on the speculation from before, no-one could really decide how you would level or rank-up in STO, and there was a need to be able to gradually increase in ranks from Cadet to Captain and beyond. So I started thinking to myself, how would you go about this in an MMORPG styled system?

Just so we're in agreement, let's assume the following is at least a partial list of the potential ranks we will see in-game, and for you legal people out there: this in-no way reflects anything actually being implemented by Cryptic at the moment.

Cadet

The classes are ranked 5 through 1, 5 being lowest (no rank or insignia) to 1, (4 pips and a "Team Leader badge of merit")

Levels 1-5 (new class gained every 1 levels)

These levels would go quick, as they would be introductory, teaching you basic training, handling of the starship, navigational, comms, and other aspects of running a ship. These could be simple quests, which would be rewarded at the end of the quest, and would get you familiarized with the game.
(There could also be an option to skip this and go directly to Warrant Officer, for alts or returning players)

Ensign (*edit suggested)
Levels 5-20

Beginning at level 5, you would graduate the Academy and gain your first assignment. A small ship with a very small crew complement. This is where you could continue to learn and train out in the smaller solar system areas that you start in. I.e., Federation Ensigns could travel just within the Sol system and a few outlaying areas, continuing their training on-board a ship, at least until being comissioned as a Lieutenant, where they would graduate with a ceremony and obtain a larger ship, with more responsibilities and more crew.
This would also be a critical time to pick a path of personal career development, prior to being commissioned. For instance, do you want Command & Control, Engineering, Science, Medical, etc? And you will learn how to spend points increasing those skill trees. (These can be unlearned later if you don't like that skill path perhaps?)


Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Levels 20-30

Lieutenant, Junior Grade would be a big step, because now you would be give access to your first real starship, a much larger crew than before, and the ability to pick and choose missions better. The danger level would increase with the missions, and so would your responsibility and reward.

Lieutenant
Levels 35-40
Continuing up the chain of command would grant you access to newer, more exciting missions, better equipment and crew, and a much larger area of space to explore.


Lieutenant Commander
Levels 40-45

As a lieutenant Commander you would now be able to access elite missions with a large crew, lets say (40 plus crew-members), and you could assist other Officers on group missions that required larger crews and more ships.


Commander
Levels 45-50

By the time you've reached Commander, you are finally granted access to your first Flagship, such as a Galaxy or Sovereign (or whatever they have available at this time), your missions are much more complicated and riveting than ever before, and now you have much more difficult challenges that require you to sometimes side-step the prime directive, or make judgement calls that could be seen as "questionable" by some.


Captain
Levels 50-60

This is it baby! You've made it all the way...you have had a taste for the big times, and now you're in them. You finally have a unique flagship of your own, and are prepared better than ever to meet the call of duty, to boldly go where no-one has gone before.

This is just a work in progress, and like I said before, this in no-way reflects how Cryptic would actually implement a ranking system, but anyway, feel free to throw any comments this way, what do you guys think/feel about this? And can you add more to it? Like it? Hate it? Etc.?

-Avery

No levels. I am sick to death of the idiot idea of "levels" in games. There is no such thing as levels in real life. There is only "what a [person] can do, and what a [person] can't do". Which translates into skills and equipment for your character and your own ability to use them.

It's way past time we stopped letting game developers get away with forcing ridiculous leveling systems on us game players so they could assure their suits-in-charge that "it will take ANY player x amount of time to get to max level, so that's how many months worth of revenue you can put on your spreadsheet every time someone subscribes!".

Want to know how much longer I intend to keep playing? ASK ME. It's not like we don't have email, or forums or surveys for gods sake lol.

[thefreshjedi]

No levels. I am sick to death of the idiot idea of "levels" in games. There is no such thing as levels in real life. There is only "what a [person] can do, and what a [person] can't do". Which translates into skills and equipment for your character and your own ability to use them.

It's way past time we stopped letting game developers get away with forcing ridiculous leveling systems on us game players so they could assure their suits-in-charge that "it will take ANY player x amount of time to get to max level, so that's how many months worth of revenue you can put on your spreadsheet every time someone subscribes!".

Want to know how much longer I intend to keep playing? ASK ME. It's not like we don't have email, or forums or surveys for gods sake lol.

Hey woot, I addressed this same concern in some of the previous posts in here, and I agree to an extent, it would be nice to see a different system hierarchy, but when looking at mmos in general almost all focus around some sort of scale measurement system, which revolved around time spent in-game either grinding some sort of experience. It doesn't matter whether your grinding skill versus grinding levels, because either way you look at it, you're still focusing on the mechanic that requires you to spend x amount of time achieving x amound of experience to unlock, or complete x level, or x skill.

I bumped this up mostly for Redbeard whom suggested a similiar idea in another thread, and it was mostly for his reference. This was also to answer a question posed about the possibility of ticking up experience to achieve or unlock a given rank. Be it Ensign through Captain to Admiralty possibly later on.

It's by no means perfect, and I can accept that. I was just trying to brainstorm ideas around what lies ahead, how your character will achieve in-game, and what the potentials are. It was based mostly out of fun, and I was looking to compete directly with other popular MMOs out there, like WoW for example.

The idea there-in is to give other gamers a familiar way to absorb the STO universe in a method that they are accustomed to. But I realize (and I agree with this sentiment), the WoW system is a tired old rag. But regardless of how offensive it might seem to some (and for this I truly apologize), it is a system which is well rehearsed, well identified, and easier to assume, simply because it IS a tired old rag. And cannot be completely discounted, especially considering the relative success of MMOs like WoW. Which have achieved great success using this type of system.

-avery

[Zepath]

I certainly hope they do something like that.

I'd like to see the first release of the game allow you to go from Cadet to Captain in say 60 or 70 levels, and I don't want to be able to blow through those levels like you can in WoW, or WAR. I have no problem with "average" effort requiring a real life year to get to Captain. Yes, I said a year (heck I'd be fine with it taking 2 years). I think being a Captain in rank should mean something. For the power-levelers, that means 4-6 months of serious playing (not 3-4 weeks).

But as I said elsewhere, on the break down ... lets say level 6-15 is your ensign ranks, and then 16-25 is your Lt J.G. I should know what my level is ... but everyone else should just see my rank.

In the expansion, you should be able to work up through to fleet Admiral ... and no, I don't care what the real military does, or what canon is ... this is a fricking game. And working through those ranks should take another year.

Then for the next expansion, maybe we resign our commissions and move to the into the elite, ultra-secret, delta force department of Star Fleet, and have to start working our way up through that (or something like that) that you can't get into unless you've been a flag officer in Star Fleet.

[inXi]

I really wouldn't mind a complex system that combines:

1. Experience, from combat, exploration, diplomacy, trade, missions, etc.
2. Time (to limit the level-in-two-days people).
3. Improvement-by-doing (Morrowind/Oblivion).
4. Prestige (basically not be too horrible, and if you want to gank noobs you're going to pay).

Mix and match all that... I think I'm in the minority here, though, I prefer really complex systems where I have to consider a lot of things and where I can't really do things too quickly, but the "slowness" is contained withing something other than activities (simple time wait vs. actual grinding, while I wait I can do something I want to do, while I grind I can't).

[Zepath]

I really wouldn't mind a complex system that combines:

1. Experience, from combat, exploration, diplomacy, trade, missions, etc.
2. Time (to limit the level-in-two-days people).
3. Improvement-by-doing (Morrowind/Oblivion).
4. Prestige (basically not be too horrible, and if you want to gank noobs you're going to pay).

.... edited ....



I wouldn't be opposed to a "time in rank" system. All militaries do it, no reason why Star Fleet wouldn't. But there are people here that would go insane over that .... so it would have to be something like days or no more than a week at the higher ranks.

[inXi]

But there are people here that would go insane over that .... so it would have to be something like days or no more than a week at the higher ranks.If you attempt to satisfy all... you will satisfy no one.

I generally cannot play games that cater to a large group of players. They sugar coat everything, make everything easy, simple, and "user-friendly". Every aspect of the game becomes dumbed down. Everything becomes standartised. See WoW. Yes, it's most popular. It also sucks. Because most people are stupid. If a MMO caters to stupidity, I'm out.

[Zepath]

If you attempt to satisfy all... you will satisfy no one.

I generally cannot play games that cater to a large group of players. They sugar coat everything, make everything easy, simple, and "user-friendly". Every aspect of the game becomes dumbed down. Everything becomes standartised. See WoW. Yes, it's most popular. It also sucks. Because most people are stupid. If a MMO caters to stupidity, I'm out.

This is a business for Cryptic ... they are not looking to satisfy you or me.

They are looking in generalities of what they think the majority of their potential customer base wants in a game. If they designed the game for me, to my specifications, then I guarantee you maybe a dozen people would play it.

I would imagine the same could be said for your ideal game.

The problem is, its takes a dozen people a helluva long time to pay back the $5M-$8M it costs to put out an MMO these days.

[FerrariF40LM]

They could have achieving a certain rank simular to how SWG was when obtaining jedi Pre-CU.

A person would have to visit X amount of certain places of interest (POI) "difficult" and "easy" POI
A person would have to complete different types of theme parks. In STO it could be goig through starfleet acadamy or somthing like that . im not familiar wit star trek at all im just getting into it sorry.
Get visited by the "old man" or in STO maybe a Commanding officer complete his mission he gives you. Then be sent to the "village" or in STO itd be starfleet acadamy or equivalent. Where you would complete eitier skill trees or specific type missions. In SWG a person would have to complete 6 branches or 24 boxes that need to be filled that = 6 branches and you needed xp to be converted in order to be used. There was also pahses that lasted 3 weeks. Its a long process that took weeks to months to complete.
Then there would be an exit quest. In SWG it required a group to complete as it requiered killing a bunch of npcs the had 80% resistant to everything. But in STO it could be somthing simulair but maybe going through some sort of simulation like in that new star trek movie.
Then thiere would be the "padawan trials" where there was 16 missions. in STO it could be rank specific mission where you would go to certain planets do humanitarian missions etc.
Then after completeing those missions you were now a jedi initiate. In STO it would be your next rank.
Then you would go grind out your skill trees etc.

It was a very hard, very long jurney to take. It was not required to do but it was there for players that wanted to achieve it. Maybe this type of system could be applied to achieving rank.


IMO i think that there should be no lvls but have skill trees simular to SWG pre-nge where there was starting professions then hybrid and there was the ability to mix and match. and no matter what there is, there will always be grinding. infact nobody knos the meaning of grinding untill you have grinded Investigation in the bounty hunter tree or have gone through the jedi grind in SWG Pre-CU. and that is the down side with skill based is because it is almost purely grind based.

Im not necessarly wanting to have an emulated SWG system in STO, i just wanted to add that idea because it was a unique system and it allowed players to custimze thier charector the way they wanted.

[inXi]

This is a business for Cryptic ... they are not looking to satisfy you or me.We are still unaware of Cryptic target audience, and if they are aiming at "anybody", they will lose to WoW. They need to aim at something else, and "Star Trek fans" is not it.
If they designed the game for me, to my specifications, then I guarantee you maybe a dozen people would play it.
I would imagine the same could be said for your ideal game.See EVE, Elite, etc... niche (hardcore) games have less, but not little, of followers.
The problem is, its takes a dozen people a helluva long time to pay back the $5M-$8M it costs to put out an MMO these days.I seriously doubt that's true. I think companies aim for overprofit more often than not. Which is why they often fail. They concentrate on money, forget soul, and people want soul, and companies keep, and keep, and keep missing that very point.

WAR, AoC, SWG, etc., they all did what you said. They are not barely keeping up.

[wootage]

Hey woot, I addressed this same concern in some of the previous posts in here, and I agree to an extent, it would be nice to see a different system hierarchy, but when looking at mmos in general almost all focus around some sort of scale measurement system, which revolved around time spent in-game either grinding some sort of experience. It doesn't matter whether your grinding skill versus grinding levels, because either way you look at it, you're still focusing on the mechanic that requires you to spend x amount of time achieving x amound of experience to unlock, or complete x level, or x skill.

I bumped this up mostly for Redbeard whom suggested a similiar idea in another thread, and it was mostly for his reference. This was also to answer a question posed about the possibility of ticking up experience to achieve or unlock a given rank. Be it Ensign through Captain to Admiralty possibly later on.

It's by no means perfect, and I can accept that. I was just trying to brainstorm ideas around what lies ahead, how your character will achieve in-game, and what the potentials are. It was based mostly out of fun, and I was looking to compete directly with other popular MMOs out there, like WoW for example.

The idea there-in is to give other gamers a familiar way to absorb the STO universe in a method that they are accustomed to. But I realize (and I agree with this sentiment), the WoW system is a tired old rag. But regardless of how offensive it might seem to some (and for this I truly apologize), it is a system which is well rehearsed, well identified, and easier to assume, simply because it IS a tired old rag. And cannot be completely discounted, especially considering the relative success of MMOs like WoW. Which have achieved great success using this type of system.

-avery

Hokay, I understand you think a level-based system would be good for players in STO. I'm on the complete other side though, because I've been playing since the first MMO and have experienced other systems which had very positive effects on the fun-o-meter compared to leveling. Levels are an artificial mechanic which were created in pen'n paper gaming (all the way back to Gygax n'Anderson), and they have been made obsolete for solid decades by skill-gain systems, also begun in pen'n paper gaming. That's why I am so glad Cryptic is exploring other options, even though ranks sound a lot like levels to me.

However, the first MMORPG (EQ1) used levels because that was the easiest way for them to structure their game. It's not the players that asked for that structure, mind you, because at the time, there were no players. But the DEVELOPERS needed a way to scale up the hitpoint, ability, damage, reward and item values all together, and if they assign level values to everything, their job gets a lot easier. And hey, there are levels in pen n'paper gaming, so the argument brought up was "It will work for our target market (MUD players - EQ1 was originally targeted at a market of 10,000 MUD-playing ppl fyi) because they're used to it" .

And because virtually all other games have followed this model (due in part to the original programmers being spread out to other SOE games like SWG), well, here we are, handed the system without any choice other than "don't play". Which automatically removes any dissenting opinion from the surveys, doesn't it?
So saying that the leveling system is successful is meaningless - there is no equally widespread competing system against which to measure its success for players. Unless you meant it was successful for developers - that I would agree with.

But I've never seen gamers demand levels as a way to measure in-game success. Gamers demand accomplishment as a measure of success - a level system is only one way to provide a measuring stick. Other ways used by Cryptic and other companies such as Turbine (although they use levels too) include badges and deeds that provide new abilities, and of course titles.

I can draw some anecdotal input from other game types which did not have leveling systems. Deus Ex for one, Oblivion (using level-less mods) is another. I found both to be perfectly excellent ways to play, and without worrying about levels, I could focus more on the game experience. As my skills went up from playing, I found myself more powerful and took on more dangerous-looking opponents. When I fought something and didn't do any damage on the first hit, I knew I'd made a mistake and ran for it before I got my butt kicked.

How complicated does a game have to be before you can play it? My take is - way less complicated than leveling systems make them. Do we need to have a /con icon floating over every mobs head so we know whether we can easily kill it for loot or should go level up some more before we kill it for loot? I wonder whether the level system itself is responsible for the debasement of adventure gaming into "assassination for acquisition" gaming.


Anyways, 'nuff said. I hope that you'll one day find yourself playing a game where you are not being forced to measure your level against your abilities, equipment, groupmates, guildmates, and everything else you see on the screen. And I hope you find it as fun as I have :D

[Zepath]

We are still unaware of Cryptic target audience, and if they are aiming at "anybody", they will lose to WoW. They need to aim at something else, and "Star Trek fans" is not it.

...edited...



You may be correct inXi. I think they need to walk the tight-rope of sticking enough to the Star Trek theme that every Star Trek fan will want to play the game, but not get so caught up in canon that the non-Trekkies feel like outsiders.

There are a ton of Trekkies out there who will come to this game ... they alone could possibly make this game profitiable if Cryptic is able to hold their attention.

But there are also a ton of "Closet Trekkies" out there that are watching this game as well that they need to be trying to appeal to them as well.

And finally, there's a ton of people out there who are experienced MMO players who are looking for anything in an MMO that isn't "Dungeons and Dragons" or FPS.

If they can grab those three groups and hold em, I think they win, and this game will be hugely successful.

Of course I could be completely wrong ... that's why no one has invest millions in me to develop a game. LOL!

[Kairutk]

Well I think they need an untraditionaly system. no one ever heared of lvl in the ST universe why do it now
I think a better system would be a prestige and fame system. both are slose but not exaclty the same also a rep system would be nice.

so lets say I am just starting out. I have the rank of a cadet. I do a few missions and get fame instead of money, but this fame would have a natural increase, the more you explore and do the more your name is spread thought the stars. and by WOM your will naturally gain fame. now instead of it costing you fame you can use it. so I did soem missions and I now have 50 fame, I can get me a shuttle craft, after doing some more missions I get 50 more fame. now I can tradein the shuttle craft I was using and now get me one that requires 100 fame. and this system could work for all things.

presitige is only with your faction this determines your rank so ask you do quests and kill enemys you get prestige with your faction. this can also be lost by having your ship blown up, and attack federation friendlys. this so Ive done soem quests and now my prestige is lvl 2 I can now have like 1 BO or other reward.

Reputation is simmilar to prestige but it applies to all factions, this determines how you are accepted by each race. your races rep is direcly related to your rank.

each rank should have its own requirements, so for instance

X amoust of total fame, prestige lvl 10 and 1 good reputation. this makes you eligable for for ensign quest

and for higher ranks you may have to be on good exelent honored rep with so many civilizations

[Zepath]

Well I think they need an untraditionaly system. no one ever heared of lvl in the ST universe why do it now? I think a better system would be a prestige and fame system. both are slose but not exaclty the same also a rep system would be nice.


Tomatoe or tomato ... its all the same Kairutk. You're still accumulating towards the next level of whatever it is. Be it experience, or the number of places to visit, or how many quests you've done.

At least if they use "experience" and "levels" its something most players can relate to and understand.

Go play Warhammer Online ... they have 40 levels. But wait, they have 80 levels of "renown".

Most players come into that game thinking its your level that matters, when in fact, its your renown that matters .... so they rush to the end of the game, proud they made level 40. But then they find out they can't compete because they only have renown level 10, and they have to be at least renown level 40 to be able to use the gear they need to be competitive.

Then then they find out its harder to level renwon than it is to level experience .... at that point they usually get frustrated or demoralized and quit the game.

Let's just keep it simple .... you level, and your rank reflects that level. Your currency with Star Fleet is your prestige. Your currency with other players and factions/races/planets is credits or a barter system.

I'm not saying you're wrong, this is just my opinion.

[Kairutk]

i know, but this being a mmo unlike anyother why have a system like everyone else? I know simplist is best, but why gimp that system when everything else is practically revolutionary?

[Zepath]

i know, but this being a mmo unlike anyother why have a system like everyone else? I know simplist is best, but why gimp that system when everything else is practically revolutionary?

They can come up with whatever system they want. It doesn't have to be like all the other MMOs ... but it has to be something the new, and casual, player can understand (thus, simple).

You want depth in your game. We all do. But the advancement system should not be confusing or have surprises.

[Kairutk]

true, well whatever they do I dont think it should be a cakewalk to be a captain, and that it should be blunt and to the point. I dont think it would be right to just go out and kill everything out there of "XP" and become a captain just because you wasted a munch of ships. now if your in tactical, blowing things up is your job, so maybe give bonuses to things that relate to your class?

what do you think?

[zus]

If I am suppose to be the captain that means I have crew and officer in charge when I am not in the ship and I am offline,
I don’t see why not receive income and prestige from my first officers actions from following my orders ,
so I can to enjoy the game without having to become slave to it :eek:

[Flatfingers]

I've got my own notions of how ranks/levels and gameplay ought to be integrated in a Star Trek MMORPG (Combat Modes and Player Ranks in a Star Trek MMORPG (http://flatfingers-theory.blogspot.com/2007/04/combat-modes-and-player-ranks-in-star.html)), but avery's proposal is not at all unreasonable. Going back and reading the OP, it seems to me like a practical first draft for a way to structure character advancement.

One thing I would question is the use of both ranks and levels.

It's important to note that ranks are a form of level. So to say "we should get rid of all levels" could be understood as saying "there shouldn't be ranks"... and I suspect that's a guaranteed feature. ;)

However, what about having both ranks and levels? If character advancement in STO can be organized by rank, is there value in also implementing numeric levels inside each rank?

Actually, even that question is a little misleading. If there's going to be any kind of level system (including rank), then there will be an internally stored number that holds each character's current progress. The real question, then, is this: should that internal representation of a character's level be exposed to players?

In other words, should players be able to see the "magic number" that determines whether their character is about to ding to the next rank?

Bearing in mind "how it's always been done," I'd say no. In a game like EQ, where the max level is soon to be raised to 90, there's always a new level just in sight. So players focus on that -- they do simple, safe little tasks, they spend hours grinding, doing the same thing over and over again like a robot just to ding to the next artificially defined "level," rather than playing the game and letting the achievement of a new character level come as a pleasant side-effect.

The alternative would be a structure like D&D. Yes, it had levels... but as a practical matter it had only maybe 10-12 levels -- after that your character was so burly that the challenges got silly; you retired that character and started a new one. The advantage of this approach, of having only a relatively small number of levels, is that players spend their time interacting with the gameworld at the gameworld level. When the next level is so far off that you know you won't reach it in this or the next few gameplay sessions, you stop trying to game the numbers and instead just enjoy the wide variety of things there are to do in the gameworld.

Certainly there are players who think they enjoy focusing on the numbers, who see games as first/most/best contests to be "won," and who thus believe that the only thing to do in a MMORPG is to try to race to "max level" as quickly as possible. As a playstyle, it's as valid as any other... but what happens when only that playstyle is catered to in how a MMORPG is designed? How can you not wind up with most players spending all their time racing to the next level instead of enjoying the breadth of all the content the developers spent time crafting?

But that's exactly what happens when the "level" concept is taken to ridiculous extremes by having 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 of them.

I'd like to see Star Trek Online not go there. I'm completely on board with there being levels in the form of ranks. That satisfies both the desires of current MMORPG players for character advancement goals as well as the interests of Star Trek fans for the Starfleet/KDF experience.

But exposing numeric levels within each rank? I'm much less sure that would be a good design choice.

That said, there might be a way to implement inter-rank levels in an acceptable way. (In fact, I've already proposed it elsewhere.) But before I spell it out here, I'll pause to give folks a chance to tell me that I'm completely insane and should not be allowed to post any more ideas. :D

--Flatfingers

[Loekii]

I am a big fan of Milking = No rewards.

So running around 'farming greens' should not be a way to level up.

Nor should just logging into a 'battlefield', but not actually productively participating.

I would like to see some things that track and remove reward when people are gaming the system.

[Sobekeus]

What if you don't do something for that certain time.

Retirement?

[Kairutk]

I like that, a lvl 10 captain?

[r2data]

How about a radical idea? Expanding on the prestige system, you character gains prestige (or loses it) for actions that they take. Ranks would cost prestige as would items, upgrades etc. So then you'd have to choose between pimping out your ship and advancing to the next rank or if say, you've got a major prestige boost and you like what the next couple of ranks up has to offer, you could purchase it straight away. This would eliminate the levels system entirely and allow for more varied gameplay.

Not only that, it also parallels canon and real-life as people get promoted based on their accomplishments, not over time, as MMO levels seem to do.

[billybob442]

I'd like to see a rank system based off of a "prestige score", since that would show how valued you are by your faction and thus the likelihood that they'd want to promote you. Your character could 'buck for a promotion' every so often. There'd be a chance of getting the promotion based on your current prestige score. To keep people from just bugging Starfleet repeatedly till they made admiral each failed attempt would cost you prestige.

I like this much better than automatically getting a promotion for accumulating X number of experience points or doing X number of missions.

[Flatfingers]

I strongly support both the ideas in the two previous posts.

To add to the fun, how about this: let players get better in their current rank, and let them gain rank... and let both options be purchased with prestige.

This would allow a player to focus on becoming a Legendary Commander or a Veteran Captain (and so on) instead of having only the "rank" levels as character advancement goals. And requiring both to bepaid for out of the same bucket of prestige helps to make the choice more interesting -- do you race up through the ranks as a novice, never experiencing the advanced content available for each rank? Or do you try to earn the "Legendary" title for each rank before seeking promotion, even though that means other players will gain access to higher-tier ships much sooner than you?

Is that a choice that a majority of STO's likely subscribers would find, if not enjoyable, at least acceptable?

--Flatfingers

[Sherp]

Not only that, it also parallels canon and real-life as people get promoted based on their accomplishments, not over time, as MMO levels seem to do.

Hah. I really wish that were true. (Perhaps it is, in the civilian world.) Getting promoted in the military is not at all like the TV shows; it's much more like an MMO reputation grind. This is an area where gameplay most emphatically should not imitate real life.

So how can we make the gameplay mechanic work like the TV show does? I'd like getting promoted to the next rank to have some fanfare and ceremony to it, and for it to occur as a result of heroics, not in the middle of a mission like it does in lots of other games. What if when a player met the requirements to hit the next level, Starfleet contacted him with a mission to complete? This special "level-up" mission would not be tagged as anything unusual, but as it progressed the scope would expand, and by the end of it the player is saving the [{ship | planet | star system | quadrant | universe}, depending on rank]. And when the mission is complete and the player has saved the day, Starfleet thunders forth with a "WELL DONE! Please report back to Earth for promotion, a new ship, and adulation from your peers!"

Naturally, there could only be so many of the level-up missions, so players would quickly learn and share which ones they were. Heck, maybe they should even be flagged in some small way so people don't pass them over and then wonder why they never get promoted. But that shouldn't diminish the thrill too much when you save the day and pin on that extra pip.

Ranks should be a big deal. There aren't a lot of them, so they should take a while to earn, and the payoff should be impressive.

[Kairutk]

I think that if they could find a way for both that would be great. I mean trekkies/trekkers whatever will aknowledge the rank above lvl, where as the MMOer will look soly at the lvl.

[tymothymichel]

What if you weren't affiliated with the military, but were a commercial captain, or trader who owned his own ship? How would you "earn" being Captain, other than by virtue of ownership?

[thefreshjedi]

...
That said, there might be a way to implement inter-rank levels in an acceptable way. (In fact, I've already proposed it elsewhere.) But before I spell it out here, I'll pause to give folks a chance to tell me that I'm completely insane and should not be allowed to post any more ideas. :D

--Flatfingers

I love your ideas Flat for the record. A bit lengthy, mind-you, but intrigueing. You take the time to really think it through from front to back, and you're always welcome to post in any of my threads, simply because I know that you will always have something enriching to add to it. That being said... are you crazy? Most deffinately. But then again, who's really sane these days anyway.

-avery

[thefreshjedi]

What if you weren't affiliated with the military, but were a commercial captain, or trader who owned his own ship? How would you "earn" being Captain, other than by virtue of ownership?

Well the benefit to this system, be it ranks or levels, is that if they choose to expand upon the idea later, they can always revamp the system easier around expansions, since the core was already in place. So if they ever wanted to do a StarTrek: Privateer type of game, they could somehow incorporate those types of elements into it, along with the original skill based hierarchy.

Just so you know guys, I do read every post you make, and if I haven't replied directly to any of you as yet, don't be concerned, I will try to get to as many of them as I can, and answer them as I can.

Again, I really appreciate everyone's thoughts on this. And the models that everyone has added. I even appreciate the critisisms in this case: and also for the record, I don't agree with Levels either. It's just out there simply because of the rhetoric that everyone is already accustomed to with many other MMOs.

I think until Cryptic feels comfortable to announce how they've dealt with this design feature, it's all good fun to speculate. And hopefully it's equally constructive to the DEVs who can use it as a basis of comparison, and read the critisms or other constructive mentions, herein.

-avery

[WinterPark1701]

The problem with useing rank as a level system is that there just aren't that many ranks, only six between Ensign and Captain and normaly it takes 20-25 years to run through them in real life. Thats why Rank and leveling must be seperate, when I played SWG you could rank up if you where part of the empire (as I was) by spending development points you earned by completeing missions, you could also use them for specilized training and equipment.