"Sir, we have a ship... and the means to go where we will."

[VainEldritch]

One of the things I'm most looking forward to and hoping for is the absolute freedom to go where I want in the galaxy. The words of the thread title come, as you probably know, from Joachim, Khan's second-in-command, as a plea for Khan, when free and in possession of the USS Reliant, to take to the stars and consider his freedom as proof that Kirk was defeated.

I'm very excited at the prospect of having a ship and the means to go where I will...

I do however hope the Galaxy is true 3-D and not shoeboxed nor cut up into small instances. I don't mind instanced worlds, but to get that truely vast feeling for the galaxy, space must seem limitless and not have artifical boundries, so shoeboxing is a "no-no".

Equally, I hope the galaxy is "infinit" or at least so vast as to give the impession of limitless exporation. How can they do this? One way is to make limits on the range of starships. If starships require fuel (matter/antimatter), then you will get only so far without refueling, so Starbases become vital for exploration. As you explore, build bases/depots then advance a bit further into the unknown. There are so many ways thye could do this, though - starbase construction, fuel depots/tankers, fuel scoops or production facilities, etc.

Bah, I can daydream about this game all day long - plan crew, create backstory, watch DVD's, and troll these forums, but as Tom Petty rightly observed: "The Waiting Is The Hardest Part"...

:)

[Silverspar]

You might have to be disappointed because even if they could make it big, there would eventually be a wall that everyone would run into to the limit of the server. Furthermore, even in EVE, the space sectors are pretty much zones, though big zones. I am sure Cryptic would perform the samething, by making the specific zones large, but I would not expect unlimited travel or space.

[VainEldritch]

You might have to be disappointed because even if they could make it big, there would eventually be a wall that everyone would run into to the limit of the server. Furthermore, even in EVE, the space sectors are pretty much zones, though big zones. I am sure Cryptic would perform the samething, by making the specific zones large, but I would not expect unlimited travel or space.

Did you ever play Elite: First Encounters?

In that game Frontier Developments has an engine that literally recreated the galaxy as known, and had a random system generator. Something like that would be perfect for this game - add in instanced planets, missions, starbases and the Elite galaxy would do nicely thank you. Of course, that was a single player game and it was easy to get stranded by jumping too far and running out of fuel - but, hey!, explorers are "signing up" for the risk.... :)

P.S. I'm sure them Cryptic mentioned "infinit exploration"...

[Bovafett]

Also a much older game: TNG: Final Unity,

That universe allowed you to go anywhere you wanted to. I always began my game with heading to romulan territory and fighting multiple Warbirds. :D

[Sobekeus]

There can only be a limit to the size of space when you seek to limit the size of space.

[Yavin_Prime]

All good dreams and some of them are possible in my opinion. Sure they could have an "open space" feel and its possible to do it in a way that sticks to canon... sectors. Each sector was roughly a 20ly box (thats not exact I have the star charts book which explains it but I'm to lazy to go get it right now), in this case each "zone" of space could just be a sector. Ultima Online introduced the concept of "server lines" in wich the server quickly loaded one section of the world and un-loaded the previous... the same could be done with sector lines.

As for the feel of infinite space... that one is a bit iffy. They did point out we'd be able to explore unkown space and such and how they'll keep fresh and expanding I'm not totaly sure (I'm not exactly a programer haha). I would say that they'd create a program that will randomly generate new space... possibly every month or so and upload it to the server, but some thought will have to be put into it in my opinion to help keep the galaxy feeling like the "trek" galaxy and not some randomly generated map of stars. So it'll be interesting to see what they do.

One one end without getting off topic to much, when exploring new space sure you may be the fifth person to a new system but perhaps you'll discover some new mineral or element that other ships overlooked. I think people focus on the exploration of planets way to much... for all we know a new system will have 100+ things to discover so I think people shouldn't worry about exploring and naming their own planets... if it sustains life think of all the critters you get to name rofl.

Ok back to the topic at hand.

[Silverspar]

Also a much older game: TNG: Final Unity,

That universe allowed you to go anywhere you wanted to. I always began my game with heading to romulan territory and fighting multiple Warbirds. :D

I beleive in such games, as it were, the design they used was basically put you in a sand box, that changes based on the parameters you put in for it. Thus it simulates a sense of endless space, changing parameters based on criteria being met around.

However, I don't think that model would work for a game that could have potential hundreds of thousands even millions of players. A lot of known space would have to be set, basically. Though I am sure as the game progresses new space will be added and even more areas that you can go to, I do not think with all the information, such as planets and the like, it could ever be truly limited though I do beleive it will be quite large. After all, we are suppose to be able to discover new worlds and new civilizations in the game, going to the Trek motto of boldly going where no one has gone before. But I do suspect there will be a wall that will evenutally be ran into at some point.

I know that I will most likely be on a search for that wall to, and as things go we will probably see a lot of expansion.

[Mook]

One of the things I'm most looking forward to and hoping for is the absolute freedom to go where I want in the galaxy. The words of the thread title come, as you probably know, from Joachim, Khan's second-in-command, as a plea for Khan, when free and in possession of the USS Reliant, to take to the stars and consider his freedom as proof that Kirk was defeated.

I'm very excited at the prospect of having a ship and the means to go where I will...

I do however hope the Galaxy is true 3-D and not shoeboxed nor cut up into small instances. I don't mind instanced worlds, but to get that truely vast feeling for the galaxy, space must seem limitless and not have artifical boundries, so shoeboxing is a "no-no".

Equally, I hope the galaxy is "infinit" or at least so vast as to give the impession of limitless exporation. How can they do this? One way is to make limits on the range of starships. If starships require fuel (matter/antimatter), then you will get only so far without refueling, so Starbases become vital for exploration. As you explore, build bases/depots then advance a bit further into the unknown. There are so many ways thye could do this, though - starbase construction, fuel depots/tankers, fuel scoops or production facilities, etc.

Bah, I can daydream about this game all day long - plan crew, create backstory, watch DVD's, and troll these forums, but as Tom Petty rightly observed: "The Waiting Is The Hardest Part"...

:)

AGREED :)

[Mook]

You might have to be disappointed because even if they could make it big, there would eventually be a wall that everyone would run into to the limit of the server. Furthermore, even in EVE, the space sectors are pretty much zones, though big zones. I am sure Cryptic would perform the samething, by making the specific zones large, but I would not expect unlimited travel or space.



they said space was going to be endless . so its going to be big and they can all ways add more space as time go's on

[Silverspar]

they said space was going to be endless . so its going to be big and they can all ways add more space as time go's on

I don't recall them ever saying it would be endless. In fact, i beleive Jack even said that though they would like to simulate infinite space, that it would be basically impossible to do.

[Mook]

I don't recall them ever saying it would be endless. In fact, i beleive Jack even said that though they would like to simulate infinite space, that it would be basically impossible to do.



was in one of the videos on web site LOOK:)

[Flatfingers]

Great post, VainEldritch. I hope Star Trek Online is something like you suggested.

Along those lines, I wanted to chime in a little on two particular points:

I do however hope the Galaxy is true 3-D and not shoeboxed nor cut up into small instances. I don't mind instanced worlds, but to get that truely vast feeling for the galaxy, space must seem limitless and not have artifical boundries, so shoeboxing is a "no-no".

I suspect the "zone" architecture is already set in stone based on using the Champions Online engine and from Jack Emmert's comments. That's not entirely bad for those of us looking for a huge galaxy; as the producer of the former version of Star Trek Online noted, it means that new zones can be added very easily to the gameworld.

That said, we'll have to wait and see how seamless these zones are. I'm hoping that it'll feel like aboveground travel in Oblivion: it was the usual bunch of tiny areas scrunched down to fit into console boxes, but each area was stitched to the others (presumably with some sort of preloading as well) so that the whole aboveground felt like one large continuous space.

Here's hoping the galaxy of Star Trek Online, even if it has seams, is designed to feel seamless.

... make limits on the range of starships. If starships require fuel (matter/antimatter), then you will get only so far without refueling, so Starbases become vital for exploration. As you explore, build bases/depots then advance a bit further into the unknown. There are so many ways thye could do this, though - starbase construction, fuel depots/tankers, fuel scoops or production facilities, etc.

This is one of two tricks for making a playing space feel larger than it actually is: impose a supply requirement. (The other is making travel require time, which puts a hard cap on the minimum time required to travel between any two locations. But let's not get into the "instant travel" debate here. :) )

I happen to favor a supply requirement because it instantly generates logistical gameplay, and that suits my vision for a strategic-level game in Star Trek Online. As you say, part of the gameplay then becomes about planting bases in order to support subsequent exploration -- I think that gameplay could really help to extend the lifespan of this game.

That said, I would note that a feature like this probably needs to be designed so that managing supply doesn't feel like a chore, and doesn't leave players too badly stranded (as in Elite). While STO may be somewhat hardcore in some areas, I believe that Cryptic is looking for a larger audience for this game than just the hardcore folks. So while I'd definitely like to see some limits to expansion, I'd like to see those limits designed so that they feel natural, and that they're not too harsh.

Finally, I'd like to suggest that if supply lines are made a feature of Star Trek Online, they should apply to all NPC factions as well as the player-enabled Federation and Klingon Empire factions.

Fair is fair, after all. :)

--Flatfingers

[VainEldritch]

I suspect the "zone" architecture is already set in stone based on using the Champions Online engine and from Jack Emmert's comments. That's not entirely bad for those of us looking for a huge galaxy; as the producer of the former version of Star Trek Online noted, it means that new zones can be added very easily to the gameworld.



I'm no programmer, but since the distances involved from one system to the next, or even form one planet to another within the same system are so mind-bogglingly vast, this immediately eliminates the possibility of players travelling between planets without using Warp Drive. So, the impression of a vast galaxy can be created simply through star charts showing sectors each with several thousdands of star systems as a map in Stellar Cartography (one room I'm hoping to have on my explorer... :) ).

Once a star system is selected, you engage warp drive - you get an animation of your craft gracefully hurtling off into the cosmos. The game then loads the system to which wanted to go - either a "hand-crafted" mission system, or randomly generated if you are the first one to go there.

By doing this Cryptic can provide a vast cosmic map with literally millions of star systems dotted about, but clearly mark on that the quadrants and the known systems. These are the only things that need extensive "hand-crafting" - 99.9999(recurring)% of the galaxy can be randomly generated - with the possibility of certain systems being "discovery" systems that are subsequently persistent.

[Silverspar]

I'm no programmer, but since the distances involved from one system to the next, or even form one planet to another within the same system are so mind-bogglingly vast, this immediately eliminates the possibility of players travelling between planets without using Warp Drive. So, the impression of a vast galaxy can be created simply through star charts showing sectors each with several thousdands of star systems as a map in Stellar Cartography (one room I'm hoping to have on my explorer... :) ).

Once a star system is selected, you engage warp drive - you get an animation of your craft gracefully hurtling off into the cosmos. The game then loads the system to which wanted to go - either a "hand-crafted" mission system, or randomly generated if you are the first one to go there.

By doing this Cryptic can provide a vast cosmic map with literally millions of star systems dotted about, but clearly mark on that the quadrants and the known systems. These are the only things that need extensive "hand-crafting" - 99.9999(recurring)% of the galaxy can be randomly generated - with the possibility of certain systems being "discovery" systems that are subsequently persistent.

Full Impusle Drive (starfleet designation) is actually 1 quarter the speed of light. Many starships can have impusle faster. According to ST TNG RPG, a Sovereign has a cruise speed at 0.75c and a max speed of 0.95c, but the energy required is so inefficient that travelling at warp is proferable for long distances. That being said, reallistically, travel time from teh inner planet ot the outer planet of a solar system would take a few hours, but that travel time will undoubtedly be shorter.

Light speed is defined at almost 300,000 kilometers per second (rounded up from the 299,792 and change). Essentially, a starfleet vessel would be travelling at almost 75,000 kilometers per second. For an idea I guess of that speed, EVE online's warp drive system would essentially be equal to Star Trek's impulse in a way.

[TheMasterpiece]

This IS just a game. You cant have limitless 3-d space. Just know that itll be large enough and enjoy what you have.

[Silverspar]

This IS just a game. You cant have limitless 3-d space. Just know that itll be large enough and enjoy what you have.

Limitless no, but I am sure, as time goes on, more will be added in the long run for us to explore. After all, for 3d space, it doesn't require as much terrain editting as ground based locations in other MMOs, though planet side maps will undoubtedly take the most time to create.

[Saladin_Class]

, i beleive Jack even said that though they would like to simulate infinite space, that it would be basically impossible to do.

Well Jack better look around the web. Jumpgate as had it for years. Crusades, which will be coming out aobut the time of STO has it.

The engine is already made

[Trekkie]

From what has been revealed about the exploration system in the game so far, I don't think that there should be any concerns about the universe being too small and I think that players will definitely be able to choose where they wish to go.

[Flatfingers]

This IS just a game.

Ah, if only I had a nickel for every time someone tried to squelch a fun discussion of design possibilities with the supposedly practical "it's just a game" comment....

You cant have limitless 3-d space. Just know that itll be large enough and enjoy what you have.

How do you know what my definition of "large enough" is?

If my definition of "large enough" is different from yours, whose version should win? Why?

If the answer to that isn't obvious, then wouldn't it be helpful to encourage people to discuss it?

--Flatfingers

[busbydaniel]

Frontier: First encounters what an amazing game that was. Think they are making number 4 now too, hope it is an MMO. Largest galaxy I have ever seen in a game. Held down the shift key and left arrow key for almost half an hour and all I got when running over star system after star system was ' System Unexplored, No More Data' and the galaxy still kept going. Truelly unlimited.

Back on topic yes I believe it is going to be pretty much unlimited. I remember reading somewhere that there is going to be some kind of planet/system random generator that will create "practically" unlimited planets and star systems for people to explore, not sure how it will work or how they are going to make it fresh for new players to explore but I'm sure they will come up with something.

I'm also not a big fan of instances and I would be very impressed if they pull of this game without them/ However, I think instances are a cert unfortunately.

[VainEldritch]

You cant have limitless 3-d space.

Again, I would like to point towards the third game in Frontier Development's "Elite" series called "Frontier:: First Encounters" - I've no idea how they did it, but that game had 3D space covering the entire galaxy and was in essence so vast, you could never explore it all in life-times play. Sure, it used random generators for planets, systems and encounters, but it was nevertheless to all intents and purposes "limitless" 3-D space and you felt like the universe was indeed vast and strange....

Oh, and it was release in 1995...

If they could do that way back then, I'm sure STO can produce a more advanced "variation on the theme" and give us a truly infinit universe.

[busbydaniel]

If any of you guys want to take a look at the Elite series, type in Frontier Elite 2 gl into google and you will be able to find a Windows XP version of Frontier: Elite 2 (the game before Frontier: First Encounters) It is only about 800k in size and yet has an enormous universe and is probably what EVE was based on. Take a look and see what we mean when we say huge.

[ElimGarak]

I'm totally agree with the refuelling idea. A Giant universe and fuel limit, you can try travel to an unknow place, but try to find a planet with some dilithium or your vital system will go down and you will die!
I do not know what's the way to do a unlimited universe, but i think is possible, im looking for that game you talking about.

_\\//

[busbydaniel]

Just to say if anyone does want to download the game it is Shareware and is perfectly legal to download.

[Reinkaos]

Once a star system is selected, you engage warp drive - you get an animation of your craft gracefully hurtling off into the cosmos.

I'd much prefer if warp drive wasn't "cut-scened". That, to me, seems a more logical thing to do with trans-warp hubs.

It would provide a much deeper sense of immersion and "hugeness" of the universe if I could engage warp (while still controlling the ship) and have to warp between planets myself, rather than just press warp and go to an animation of myself at warp,with no control over it.

That also provides the opportunity to receive distress calls and whatnot while at warp, which gives a higher sense of a populated universe, too.

[VainEldritch]

I'd much prefer if warp drive wasn't "cut-scened". That, to me, seems a more logical thing to do with trans-warp hubs.

It would provide a much deeper sense of immersion and "hugeness" of the universe if I could engage warp (while still controlling the ship) and have to warp between planets myself, rather than just press warp and go to an animation of myself at warp,with no control over it.

That also provides the opportunity to receive distress calls and whatnot while at warp, which gives a higher sense of a populated universe, too.

You're right! This is a much better idea... as long as I can select to go to an external view of my ship (pan and zoom-able, of course), to get that cinematic view.

:)

[Sinclair]

Take EVE Online for example. The space there is not infinite, but it is surely vast. I sure have not seen it all. So this has been done before and I don't think it will be one of the game's big problems. I think the larger issue is developing actual content to explore within that vastness.

[VainEldritch]

Take EVE Online for example. The space there is not infinite, but it is surely vast. I sure have not seen it all. So this has been done before and I don't think it will be one of the game's big problems. I think the larger issue is developing actual content to explore within that vastness.

I'm just anxious that we not be locked into zones. I want to look at my Stellar Cartography map, point to some distant star and say... I wonder what's there, and then be able to go there.

"Where to now Captain?"

"Third star on the right, and on until dawn."

Infinit (or as good as) universes have been done before, by much smaller games that are not almost 15 years old...

[Silverspar]

I'm just anxious that we not be locked into zones. I want to look at my Stellar Cartography map, point to some distant star and say... I wonder what's there, and then be able to go there.

"Where to now Captain?"

"Third star on the right, and on until dawn."

Infinit (or as good as) universes have been done before, by much smaller games that are not almost 15 years old...

Oi, it's second star to the right and straight on till morning :mad:

Furthermore, zoning exists in all MMOs, it's how they handle it that defines it. WoW uses a streaming method so you rarely see the load bar (except for instnacing and swapping continents). Games like Everquest make you stare at a load screen regularly. Games like Earth and Beyond subtlely hid the load screen in cutscenes, such as making planet-fall or gate jumping.

And then you still have to consider Star Trek Online will have both space and planetary exploration. And I am grateful for that because all space exploration would be dull.

[wingnutf22]

Hello, I've never posted on a forum before, but getting to the point isn't there a galactic barrier or something as shown multiple times in the original series, wouldn't that put a limit on the amount of space available to explore, if you could get that far.

[VainEldritch]

Oi, it's second star to the right and straight on till morning :mad:



I do things my way, thank you sir... ;)

[Vicelance]

Hello, I've never posted on a forum before, but getting to the point isn't there a galactic barrier or something as shown multiple times in the original series, wouldn't that put a limit on the amount of space available to explore, if you could get that far.

I think there was some sort of barrier or one episode or maybe I read it in a book. But whose to say we could ever get to that barrier even flying warp 9 for a hundred years. How long would it take to get out of the Milky Way if we wanted to?

[Elfender]

You talked a lot about exploration; about discovering parts of the universe that maybe even other players have never seen before. Can you share a little bit about how this works?

We have a system that we are working on now that addresses creating and generating territory - boundless territory - for players to investigate. Maybe it’ll be inhabited, maybe it won’t.

From an interview at Ten Ton Hammer, i like the sound of the system thier talking about

[VainEldritch]

From an interview at Ten Ton Hammer, i like the sound of the system thier talking about

Thanks mate! :)

I should read more... that sounds very hopeful indeed.

Oh god, launch seems a loooong way off.

[Blackman]

You might have to be disappointed because even if they could make it big, there would eventually be a wall that everyone would run into to the limit of the server. Furthermore, even in EVE, the space sectors are pretty much zones, though big zones. I am sure Cryptic would perform the samething, by making the specific zones large, but I would not expect unlimited travel or space.

Yep but I think things will be pretty big.

[Dominion1971]

I like all the suggestions that have been made here.. Alot of good ideas.. That being said, I am very sure that Star Trek Online will be fabulous in every way.. I am so looking forward to this.. Jack Emmert talked about even the possibility for (1) one Giant server for us all to co-exist on...

He said the technology was there to do such a thing... Now, if that is a possibility, and from the sounds of it... I am thinking Space will be quite enormous and as Flat Finger said... even if there are seams into separate zones, a Space zone will be alot easier to make seamless then a normal zone..

So regardless.. I'm ready and very excited to pull on my Federation boots or my Klingon Warriors garb... and get to doing things with this game.

Dominion1971

[beowulfx]

Just as long as they aren't as frellling small as the systems in SWG I will be happy.

[Sobekeus]

Just as long as they aren't as frellling small as the systems in SWG I will be happy.

Those were fracking insane.

[VainEldritch]

Seems all this time the answer was right under my nose... I quote Jack Emmert at the Con (video on the main STO site):

"... we have a system of infinit exploration."

(17.04 - 17.08)

There you have it. If this goes through, I'll be one happy Trekker.

:D