ANYONE else think this should be PC only

[Neshy]

about 99% are gettin this on pc and i for one belive mmos should be on PC...anyone else feel this game should not include consoles?

[LordDave]

Depends on how it's done.
I for one have no problem with console players. It is, after all, just a PC that's been modded to only play games.

[Dustnite]

I think we have enough threads about this one.

[Spire]

I want it to be PC only, but if they don't dumb the whole game down for the console I'll be pleasantly surprised.

[Kinjiru]

Sort of a moot point isn't it?

You might as well ask, "Should Cryptic be working on 2 games at once?"

And you'll get the same answer. They are.

[Captain_Intrepid]

It's better than it being game console only, and besides not everyone's able to afford a PC (some people do have a computer, but that doesn't mean it'd run better than game consoles), so it broadens the player base.

My nephew for example, would be able to play Champions and (hopefully) STO on X-Box 360 (which he'd like to get before Champions comes out) while I'm playing on my computer. His mother wouldn't be able to afford a computer so he'd be able to play online games, so the X-Box 360 is a good compromise.

[LordDave]

I want it to be PC only, but if they don't dumb the whole game down for the console I'll be pleasantly surprised.

Unless the controls aren't dumbed up....

[Kinjiru]

I want it to be PC only, but if they don't dumb the whole game down for the console I'll be pleasantly surprised.

Watch the latest interview. Jack actually says out loud and in a clear voice that the game will not be "dumbed down".

[Valenthalas]

Doesn't bother me that it's going to be on console, as they've said.. they have no intentions of "dumbing down" the game to put it on console.. and I have a mouse and keyboard for my consoles so I don't forsee that being a problem either.

[Kinjiru]

Unless the controls aren't dumbed up....

Damn, my secret's out.

"Honey, gotta re-dumb down the PS3, them nerdy-boys figured us out!"

[Yavin_Prime]

Nope I disagree, I realy think it should be on as many systems as possible... the more players the better :D

[LordDave]

Watch the latest interview. Jack actually says out loud and in a clear voice that the game will not be "dumbed down".

Which makes me laugh at console players and their non-mouse interfaces.
Use the Analog stick luke.... to move a mouse cursor! lol.

Nah, I'm sure it'll be something that can be done with the directional pad (like press start and use the padd to pick something) but let's face it: macros are awesome. :p

[ianobs]

in all reality a mac version wouldn't realy any different than a pc version, just they would have to use a 1 button mouse (snicker) than a 3 or 5. a console version is a whole different story i just have no idea how much different the game would be just from a control viewpoint.


and for the record this brand of thread is in the top 5 threads. in no perticular order


mac version

release date

how much

system requirements

ship classes

[rejarial]

ok, i may be repeating something here, but im a vet of several MMO's, namely FFXI, WoW, GW, SWG. I remember when FFXI added console players to the mix and it caused some issues to integrate everyone. BUT once the bugs were worked out things became smooth as glass on the game, save for the standard lag issues of getting tons of players into ONE area, namely Lower Jeuno near the Auction House. other than that it seemed to be smooth

[Kinjiru]

in all reality a mac version wouldn't realy any different than a pc version, just they would have to use a 1 button mouse (snicker) than a 3 or 5.

The first thing that I've done with my last three Macs is to get a decent logitech mouse.

[Spire]

Watch the latest interview. Jack actually says out loud and in a clear voice that the game will not be "dumbed down".

And I'm hoping they can pull that off. I'm just skeptical they can do that. If they can prove me wrong that's terrific, but I'd feel alot more confident if they were making it as great as possible for only the PC.

Just my own little fear for the game.

[thefrayl]

The more potential players, the better! And in the hands of a good developer, with reasonable amounts of freedom, multi-platform games can be great. I trust Cryptic. They seem to know whats important in a game.

[mezlabor]

about 99% are gettin this on pc and i for one belive mmos should be on PC...anyone else feel this game should not include consoles?

Being as that games deved for windows share the same dev tools as xbox 360 it makes good business sense to dual release it. Now I do agree I dont want the controls dumbed down for a console release.

[-Brett-]

Yeah, cuz Trekkie gamers isn't a small enough niche. They need to limit it to Trekkie PC fanboy gamers.

[Cryptic_Fan_101]

I think it should only run on Alienware computers. If you don't have an Alienware, then too bad.

And yes, I'm being facetious.

[Dustnite]

I think it should only run on Alienware computers. If you don't have an Alienware, then too bad.

And yes, I'm being facetious.

Do people still go Voodoo PCs? My votes for that...

[vp21ct]

The Frayal and i had a good debat on this in another thread http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=4604&page=15 (this is at the start of our debate)
it pretty much explains it all. :p

[Ehud]

in all reality a mac version wouldn't realy any different than a pc version, just they would have to use a 1 button mouse (snicker) than a 3 or 5.

Welcome to misnomers 101. Save for laptops, all Apple computers come with a multi-button mouse, and any usb mouse is compatible. Also, not nearly as useful but you can also command-click in place. Chances of there being a Mac version are slim to none. Why spend that time in development when many Mac users (such as myself) can simply dual boot with Windows. Other than Blizzard and ID, most studios don't bother, and Cryptic won't be any different.

As to whether console versions should be developed, I don't really see many "success" stories on consoles for MMO's. I know people who play FFXI, but none on the Playstation or Xbox. Prior to that it was Phantasy Star Online (sort of). That's not exactly what I would call a great market. It seems to be a risky decision spending extra time/resources to develop additional versions and additional input/control schemes (at least developing it for Mac, input schemes stay the same), especially when they're not particularly successful.

I personally think that will hurt the game, but as others have said, they're already doing it, so what's really up for debate?

[JSM3050]

There are only three types of people who will play an MMO on a console: the medically insane, the truly talented, and the people with too much time on their hands who can sit around for hours and learn to use an analog stick as well as a mouse.

That being said, I see no reason why Cryptic shouldn't console owners play Star Trek Online with the rest of us. Their money's just as good.

[rejarial]

i must say it: limiting this to one BRAND of computer or console is bad form and bad business. i say bring em all in IF they can meet minimum requirements :)

[thefrayl]

As to whether console versions should be developed, I don't really see many "success" stories on consoles for MMO's. I know people who play FFXI, but none on the Playstation or Xbox. Prior to that it was Phantasy Star Online (sort of). That's not exactly what I would call a great market. It seems to be a risky decision spending extra time/resources to develop additional versions and additional input/control schemes (at least developing it for Mac, input schemes stay the same), especially when they're not particularly successful.

I personally think that will hurt the game, but as others have said, they're already doing it, so what's really up for debate?

Considering how few console MMO's are even in existence, that logic doesn't really make sense. But most of the consistent FFXI players are playing via consoles, and it's still very succesful after nearly 7 years. It's a relatively fresh market for MMO's.

[Cryptic_Fan_101]

in all reality a mac version wouldn't realy any different than a pc version, just they would have to use a 1 button mouse (snicker) than a 3 or 5.

Um, Apple has been shipping multi-button mice with their computers for years now.

[Ehud]

Considering how few console MMO's are even in existence, that logic doesn't really make sense. But most of the consistent FFXI players are playing via consoles, and it's still very succesful after nearly 7 years. It's a relatively fresh market for MMO's.


Not outside of Japan. I can't find it offhand, but FFXI subscribers stateside are lackluster at best especially with WoW, the preverbal elephant in the MMO room. As this isn't a Japanese MMO, it's hard to compare it to FFXI. On one hand, providing the game to consoles gives it a broader market away from WoW, on the other, there's a massive stigma to console MMO's. Who knows really, by the time STO is released, things my have changed completely.

[severius]

The more people that can play the better. The gaps between pc and consoles are not the same as they were 20, 10, even 5 years ago. If they can launch at the same time and share servers more power to em.

[thefrayl]

Not outside of Japan. I can't find it offhand, but FFXI subscribers stateside are lackluster at best especially with WoW, the preverbal elephant in the MMO room. As this isn't a Japanese MMO, it's hard to compare it to FFXI. On one hand, providing the game to consoles gives it a broader market away from WoW, on the other, there's a massive stigma to console MMO's. Who knows really, by the time STO is released, things my have changed completely.

Seems to me that when I played FFXI last (about 2 months ago) there were more english speaking players online than there were a few years back. I think the 360 release had quite a bit to do with that. But you're right, you can't really compare the two. This is something new & different. Also something you won't find anywhere else on a console. Theres far less competition, and thats alot of potential money to be made. I think we'll see a bit of a performance preview when Champions Online comes out. I know I'm gonna try it :)

[Ehud]

Seems to me that when I played FFXI last (about 2 months ago) there were more english speaking players online than there were a few years back. I think the 360 release had quite a bit to do with that. But you're right, you can't really compare the two. This is something new & different. Also something you won't find anywhere else on a console. Theres far less competition, and thats alot of potential money to be made. I think we'll see a bit of a performance preview when Champions Online comes out. I know I'm gonna try it :)

Absolutely. After seeing the displays at E3 there seems to be more of a trend to console MMO's as an untapped market. I'm worried that Champions Online will be "City of Heroes" Version 2.0, but it still looks interesting. It seems like the superhero MMO market will be crowded next year with that and DC Online.

As I've stated elsewhere, my biggest concern about console MMO's is the interactivity. I'm an active WoW player, and would have quit long ago if it wasn't for the guild that I've been with for the past two years. Half of the time I log in is just to chat with friends. This is hindered by the lack of keyboard on consoles, and as an Xbox 360 and Wii owner, I'm not a fan of purchasing peripherals for my console. Why spend $50-$100 on a keyboard when I can just use my computer? It seems to go against what MMO's have always been about is all.

[loyaltrekie]

I think that you should use the search function and add into the discussion of the other 94 threads with the same title. Then again I like to see 3 of the same thread in the "Todays posts" page. How about we make an official "Console onry thread" and get it stickied, so these can stop.

[thefrayl]

As I've stated elsewhere, my biggest concern about console MMO's is the interactivity. I'm an active WoW player, and would have quit long ago if it wasn't for the guild that I've been with for the past two years. Half of the time I log in is just to chat with friends. This is hindered by the lack of keyboard on consoles, and as an Xbox 360 and Wii owner, I'm not a fan of purchasing peripherals for my console. Why spend $50-$100 on a keyboard when I can just use my computer? It seems to go against what MMO's have always been about is all.
Comfort. I payed 30 bucks for a wireless usb keyboard and mouse. If I play a game that needs alot of chatting to be worthwhile (not many out there), nothing beats being able to kick back on the couch with a controller in your hands, and a keyboard by your side whenever you need it. And also, alot of people don't have powerful PCs to play on.

[thefrayl]

I think that you should use the search function and add into the discussion of the other 94 threads with the same title. Then again I like to see 3 of the same thread in the "Todays posts" page. How about we make an official "Console onry thread" and get it stickied, so these can stop.

While that would be nice, it'd also be a pain to sift through hundreds of posts in one thread. At least we get some new faces with the new posts though. I would get used to it, we have a looong time to go before gameplay :)

[Ehud]

Comfort. I payed 30 bucks for a wireless usb keyboard and mouse. If I play a game that needs alot of chatting to be worthwhile (not many out there), nothing beats being able to kick back on the couch with a controller in your hands, and a keyboard by your side whenever you need it. And also, alot of people don't have powerful PCs to play on.

You don't need a powerful PC necessarily. I know I keep using WoW as an example (only because it's my current active MMO subscription) but it was running yesterday on a 3 year old $1000 dell laptop, and was playable. $300 will get you a PC to play most of today's games (Crysis doesn't count :))

While that would be nice, it'd also be a pain to sift through hundreds of posts in one thread. At least we get some new faces with the new posts though. I would get used to it, we have a looong time to go before gameplay :)
I'd expect many more to come :P. My apologies if I'm posting things that have already been discussed. I've been an occasional lurker, and decided to only start posting today.

I'd expect gameplay in ~6 months. It won't at all be complete, but look at Age of Conan and Warhammer Online - we saw in game footage literally years before release.

[thefrayl]

You don't need a powerful PC necessarily. I know I keep using WoW as an example (only because it's my current active MMO subscription) but it was running yesterday on a 3 year old $1000 dell laptop, and was playable.
How old is WoW again? ;) It's okay, my brother is worse. It's all he knows in the universe.

[nrarick]

I just hope that they do a decent job when they port it to the other mediums. I really hope that it is written for PC first then ported to consoles. Star Trek games (Legacy) have had some bad track records in this area.

[Cryptic_Fan_101]

As I've stated elsewhere, my biggest concern about console MMO's is the interactivity. I'm an active WoW player, and would have quit long ago if it wasn't for the guild that I've been with for the past two years. Half of the time I log in is just to chat with friends. This is hindered by the lack of keyboard on consoles, and as an Xbox 360 and Wii owner, I'm not a fan of purchasing peripherals for my console. Why spend $50-$100 on a keyboard when I can just use my computer? It seems to go against what MMO's have always been about is all.

First of all, I may be in the minority here, but fewer people telling Chuck Norris jokes in global/guild chat is no great loss to me.

Second of all, you've got a computer? Did it come with a USB mouse and keyboard? Did you happen to notice the 360 has USB ports? Why spend $50-$100 on a keyboard (btw, $50-$100? What is it made out of... gold?) when you can just use the one that came with computer? Or for that matter, why not just use your computer to play the game in the first place, and let 360 owners worry about buying new peripherals?

[Cuddles]

Release it for all of them. Doesnt bother me. I think this will be niche to nerds anyway. I wouldnt expect the general gaming community to jump on this one.

[mezlabor]

First of all, I may be in the minority here, but fewer people telling Chuck Norris jokes in global/guild chat is no great loss to me.

Second of all, you've got a computer? Did it come with a USB mouse and keyboard? Did you happen to notice the 360 has USB ports? Why spend $50-$100 on a keyboard (btw, $50-$100? What is it made out of... gold?) when you can just use the one that came with computer? Or for that matter, why not just use your computer to play the game in the first place, and let 360 owners worry about buying new peripherals?

Signed. I certainly wouldnt mind the absence of the wow crowd.

[Ehud]

First of all, I may be in the minority here, but fewer people telling Chuck Norris jokes in global/guild chat is no great loss to me.

Second of all, you've got a computer? Did it come with a USB mouse and keyboard? Did you happen to notice the 360 has USB ports? Why spend $50-$100 on a keyboard (btw, $50-$100? What is it made out of... gold?) when you can just use the one that came with computer? Or for that matter, why not just use your computer to play the game in the first place, and let 360 owners worry about buying new peripherals?

Fair enough (on the Chuck Norris Jokes too...why I turn off most global channels). Sure the 360 has usb ports, and I don't know how big your TV is, but how many $30 keyboards do you have with an 11 foot cable? Sure they can be extended, but at least for my personal comfort, you'd need a wireless keyboard to be able to not burn your corneas. As to actual price, how much was/is the Xbox media remote? :P I was more going on "official" xbox pricing.

Signed. I certainly wouldnt mind the absence of the wow crowd.

It's not the "absence of the WoW crowd". My point stands about personal interaction....sure it's a blessing and a curse, but if you find a group of people you can connect with who are as sick of the aforementioned Chuck Norris jokes, it gives the user another reason to play, at least in my experience.

[Kinjiru]

Fair enough (on the Chuck Norris Jokes too...why I turn off most global channels). Sure the 360 has usb ports, and I don't know how big your TV is, but how many $30 keyboards do you have with an 11 foot cable? Sure they can be extended, but at least for my personal comfort, you'd need a wireless keyboard to be able to not burn your corneas. As to actual price, how much was/is the Xbox media remote? :P I was more going on "official" xbox pricing.

8' USB cable extensions are for sale at the Dollar Store. I bought 6 just so I'd have extras. I do prefer a wireless keyboard though.

After looking at the remote (for my PS3) I decided that there isn't really any reason for it, my wireless controllers are fine as remotes.

[rejarial]

i am now and have been an active wow player since 3 months after the release in the states. been around now for just over 3 yrs. and we wow crowd are not goin anywhere, we are all over, many millions of us

[Cryptic_Fan_101]

As to actual price, how much was/is the Xbox media remote? :P I was more going on "official" xbox pricing.

I haven't a clue, as the "newest" console I own is a Nintendo 64. However, I'd assume it's cheaper than a hard drive, which Cryptic has already said would be a requirement.

It's not the "absence of the WoW crowd". My point stands about personal interaction....sure it's a blessing and a curse, but if you find a group of people you can connect with who are as sick of the aforementioned Chuck Norris jokes, it gives the user another reason to play, at least in my experience.

Yeah, it's a valid point. But if chatting is really a priority for someone, getting a keyboard isn't exactly out of reach.

[Ehud]

8' USB cable extensions are for sale at the Dollar Store. I bought 6 just so I'd have extras. I do prefer a wireless keyboard though.

After looking at the remote (for my PS3) I decided that there isn't really any reason for it, my wireless controllers are fine as remotes.

Which works fine in a house without small children or pets. Not everyone who will buy this game will be a college student :) Sometimes it's not a preference for a wireless keyboard/controller, but a necessity.

I wasn't saying buy the remote (as it's a ripoff in my opinion) I was just using that to approximate price.

[Kinjiru]

Which works fine in a house without small children or pets. Not everyone who will buy this game will be a college student :) Sometimes it's not a preference for a wireless keyboard/controller, but a necessity.

I wasn't saying buy the remote (as it's a ripoff in my opinion) I was just using that to approximate price.

Ahh, np. I was just posting my personal experience about the remote.

By the way, I've got 2 kids and a dog, but so far, the cord extensions are working fine. The hard part is getting my son to move the drums back against the wall when he's finished playing RockBand. :)

I hate coming out to watch a movie and there they are... right in front of the damned couch. :)

[Fencer8]

From what a number of hard core gamers tell me , we of the PC should have quite the fight against the console crew . And if were worth are salt , owning the day is ours . .

[SirDimitri]

I hope it won't be on any consoles. From a financial standpoint it makes sense to port it to consoles though, so it will probably happen.

[Kinjiru]

I hope it won't be on any consoles. From a financial standpoint it makes sense to port it to consoles though, so it will probably happen.

Welcome to the conversation. To get you up to speed, Cryptic has stated that the game is being codeveloped for both PC and Console. We just don't know which one(s). Since their other title Champions Online is going to be released for both PC and XBox, and STO is being built using the same engine and dev tools, XBox is probably a safe bet.

There are some of us also hoping for a PS3 release. At least I am. I don't want to have to upgrade my PC. :)

But the question as to whether there will be a console release is moot. There will be.

[djnattyd]

about 99% are gettin this on pc and i for one belive mmos should be on PC...anyone else feel this game should not include consoles?



As I've stated elsewhere, my biggest concern about console MMO's is the interactivity. I'm an active WoW player, and would have quit long ago if it wasn't for the guild that I've been with for the past two years. Half of the time I log in is just to chat with friends. This is hindered by the lack of keyboard on consoles, and as an Xbox 360 and Wii owner, I'm not a fan of purchasing peripherals for my console. Why spend $50-$100 on a keyboard when I can just use my computer? It seems to go against what MMO's have always been about is all.

For £30 (not sure how much that is in dollars these days) i can buy a chat pad that plugs into my 360 pad, still a bit pricey but a lot cheaper than spending £1000 on a dedicated gaming pc. I have a brand new mid-range HP PC that cost £500 but if STO does indeed get released for the 360 then thats what ill be playing it on as i dont have the money to be upgrading my desktop every few months with a new GPU, a bigger hard drive or a liquid cooled chipset nor do i see the need when the 360 can handle advanced graphics and cost less than a new Nvidia card would

[KidBang]

I really don't see any issue with it. Other than gamer's prejudices.

[arakkis]

Welcome to the conversation. To get you up to speed, Cryptic has stated that the game is being codeveloped for both PC and Console. We just don't know which one(s). Since their other title Champions Online is going to be released for both PC and XBox, and STO is being built using the same engine and dev tools, XBox is probably a safe bet.

There are some of us also hoping for a PS3 release. At least I am. I don't want to have to upgrade my PC. :)

But the question as to whether there will be a console release is moot. There will be.

Wrong. Jack said that the game could be developed for consoles, but there are no deals made yet. This is manifestly different than developing the game for the Xbox, as Champions was. Stop drawing conclusions without any sort of facts.

I for one think this game will be too complex to pull off on a console unless things are dumbed down. The philosophy of Champions was to make it an actiony arcade type game, but the stated goal of the starship combat in STO is to make it much more tactical and tall-ship-like. I don't think this translates well to a controller since if the action is slowed down, there needs to be more things to do to fill the time. Limiting the control interface to a console controller creates a bottleneck in terms of player inputs. So in essence you have more things to do, with less ways to do them.

[KidBang]

I could be wrong, but can't you hook up a USB keyboard to the XBox or PS3?

[Kinjiru]

Wrong. Jack said that the game could be developed for consoles, but there are no deals made yet. This is manifestly different than developing the game for the Xbox, as Champions was. Stop drawing conclusions without any sort of facts.

I for one think this game will be too complex to pull off on a console unless things are dumbed down. The philosophy of Champions was to make it an actiony arcade type game, but the stated goal of the starship combat in STO is to make it much more tactical and tall-ship-like. I don't think this translates well to a controller since if the action is slowed down, there needs to be more things to do to fill the time. Limiting the control interface to a console controller creates a bottleneck in terms of player inputs. So in essence you have more things to do, with less ways to do them.

Actually... I'm not wrong.

Click Here for About the Game (http://www.startrekonline.com/about_star_trek_online)

Here's a quote:
Powered by the Cryptic Engine, Star Trek® Online will be developed for both console and PC formats.

Sounds like they're developing both for PC and console to me.

[Kinjiru]

I could be wrong, but can't you hook up a USB keyboard to the XBox or PS3?

Yes, both XBox 360 and PS3 support USB mouse/keyboard input. Whether they work with specific games depends on whether the game is designed to accept that kind of input. UTIII does, some don't, like BF: Bad Company.

[miniprime]

With the power of todays consoles there's no reason not to make it for them. I personally think the PS3 is a natural choice.With the PS3 having such a powerful CPU "cell " and open architecture for networking for online play. It would be silly not to make the game for it . As with any mmo,the more subscribers = more revenue. More revenue = more money for better and faster development. It's a win win situation.

[MSG56]

From my knowledge they have been looking at other games for inspiration for the combat in the game. I think one of those games they are looking at is Mass Effect which I played and loved on the Xbox 360. If STO plays similar to Mass Effect than I would hope they put the game out for Xbox 360. Also if they release the game on Xbox 360, they could use the Messenger Kit (the keyboard attachment to the controller) instead of an actual keyboard. This would keep the controls simple and you wouldn’t have to keep a keyboard in your lap while you played. But until we get an official word we will just have to wait and see what happens. I’m sure they will release the game on the appropriate systems.

[rejarial]

there is one thing wrong with developing an MMORPG for both consoles AND the PC, and this is what it is: thats a helluva lot of coding to keep lined up with the right duck. this is just from a technical side of things. way i see it, and the way it should be logically, develope the game for just the PC or pick ur console and develope it there, beta test it, debug it, launch it, tweak it, then bring in the other side of the coin. makes for smoother launches. doin the design, beta, debug, launch for all possible platforms delays the process, wracks up larger bills and makes the game cost more to us the devoted player base right out the door. now admittedly this will never be a problem for the lucky 5 who win a copy of the game and lifetime subscriptions, but for the rest, it could be a problem.

[TheMasterpiece]

about 99% are gettin this on pc and i for one belive mmos should be on PC...anyone else feel this game should not include consoles?

if your gettin it on pc why do u care what other system gets it?

[arakkis]

Actually... I'm not wrong.

Click Here for About the Game (http://www.startrekonline.com/about_star_trek_online)

Here's a quote:


Sounds like they're developing both for PC and console to me.

Welp, I fail, you win.

[Kinjiru]

Welp, I fail, you win.

Heh, don't worry, I've been wrong about stuff before, I'm sure I'll be wrong at least once or twice more in the future. :)

[Cryptic_Fan_101]

there is one thing wrong with developing an MMORPG for both consoles AND the PC, and this is what it is: thats a helluva lot of coding to keep lined up with the right duck. this is just from a technical side of things. way i see it, and the way it should be logically, develope the game for just the PC or pick ur console and develope it there, beta test it, debug it, launch it, tweak it, then bring in the other side of the coin. makes for smoother launches. doin the design, beta, debug, launch for all possible platforms delays the process, wracks up larger bills and makes the game cost more to us the devoted player base right out the door. now admittedly this will never be a problem for the lucky 5 who win a copy of the game and lifetime subscriptions, but for the rest, it could be a problem.

Cryptic was formerly partnered with Microsoft for the expressed purpose of developing a cross-platform MMO for the PC and Xbox. If we're going to speculate, then I'd assume most of the "heavy lifting" has already been done. Jack's more or less implied as much in many of the interviews I've seen.

[Q_Who]

umm consoles have USB ports for keyboards these days. Theres enough threads on this debate. The control won't be different, the gameplay and graphics will be the same. Crawl out of your hole and embrace console gamers. I played FFXI with PC, PS2, and Xbox 360 players. All 3 version play the same, and the community is no different. More subscribers=More success. More success=More content.

[Orion_Pimp]

PS3 could use 1080p and a better TV. Also without having to upgrade pc hardware for the 60th time.

PS3 also has a Bluetooth mouse that works with all games and it should be compatible with the keyboard.

Although I’m for ps3, I think that would limit the amount of users online thus only playstation network users would be on ps3, computer users on the internet, and Xbox users on Xbox live.

If there isn't any collaboration on systems. There would have to make the game for pc use only.

I've never played an MMO before, but I thought Mass effect was incredible. If they can come close to what Mass Effect was like, then I’ll die from ramen noodles and lack of sleep.

[boz75]

Ok, if we have to accept that the game is coming out on consoles then fine.
I understand that Cryptic are bringing it to the masses and hope for more subscribers, however if the game is noticeably "dumbed down" as it were, I think it will put a lot of people off playing this game.

This is not a trivial issue, it clearly has a lot of people on these forums worried (including myself).
It could be a potential factor in the games lifespan for me, but it also depends on how good it turns out anyway to keep me hooked (just to state the obvious.)

[Flixi]

I have nothing against console players. I love consoles like the WII, they have cool casual games.

but to be honnest the lack of keyboard makes me thinkthat more complex games are not really suitable for consoles.

but anyway maybe you can attach a keyboard to the Wii or PS3 or so, then it is fine.

[Stormnet]

Nope I disagree, I realy think it should be on as many systems as possible... the more players the better :D

I'm with you on this one!

[Cormoran]

I say cryptic should sell a version of console sto with a keyboard and mouse. selling them with a game would cement them as console peripherals in most casual gamers minds at the very least.

it gets tiring seeing this whole "OMG Consoles can't use KBs and Mouse!!!111one!!!elevenone" followed up with the inevitable "OMG cant believe you play on a mini screen i play from my couch on a HD plasma!!!oneeleven!!!11" and vice versa.

both statements are wrong and the longer they get repeated the more obtuse people look. It's like one of them gags where something goes until it's funny, then keeps going and gets annoying....i'm waiting for the punch line where this argument keeps on until it gets funny again, because it's at the annoying stage.

[bourne077]

I have no problems whatsoever if it is released on consoles, but it MUST come out for PC's lol.

[Xercies]

MMOS arn't really succssful on the consoles, sure there is FFXI but if you look not a lot of people bought it on the Xbox 360. There is one reason for this. Xbox Live costs money, and so does the MMO subscription so your paying twice for something to buy and i don't think a lot of cnsole gamers would like that.

Sure console players can use Keyboard and mouse but i think Cryptic are just going to develop most of the game for the controller and maybe map the buttons on a keyboard making it a really terrible game if you want to use a keyboard. So you will be limited on what you can do making it "dumbed down" that is a worry of mine.

But we will see won't we.

[MSG56]

there is one thing wrong with developing an MMORPG for both consoles AND the PC, and this is what it is: thats a helluva lot of coding to keep lined up with the right duck. this is just from a technical side of things. way i see it, and the way it should be logically, develope the game for just the PC or pick ur console and develope it there, beta test it, debug it, launch it, tweak it, then bring in the other side of the coin. makes for smoother launches. doin the design, beta, debug, launch for all possible platforms delays the process, wracks up larger bills and makes the game cost more to us the devoted player base right out the door. now admittedly this will never be a problem for the lucky 5 who win a copy of the game and lifetime subscriptions, but for the rest, it could be a problem.

I'm not sure if this would bring a big issue to Cryptic when developing STO. Yes, there would be some coding differences and some testing of the game on both PC and Consoles. But Cryptic is working on Champions Online for both PC and Xbox 360 (which is supposed to be release on the same day) and they've said they are using the same engine and architect for STO. So I’m sure Cryptic can handle making the game on a console and PC. I say we just watch Champions and see how it does on both the PC and Xbox 360 because I believe it will give us a big insight into what STO might have to come.

[Cryptic_Fan_101]

MMOS arn't really succssful on the consoles, sure there is FFXI but if you look not a lot of people bought it on the Xbox 360. There is one reason for this. Xbox Live costs money, and so does the MMO subscription so your paying twice for something to buy and i don't think a lot of cnsole gamers would like that.

The only thing you'd have to pay for is the MMO subscription. A Silver level Xbox Live account costs nothing.

Sure console players can use Keyboard and mouse but i think Cryptic are just going to develop most of the game for the controller and maybe map the buttons on a keyboard making it a really terrible game if you want to use a keyboard. So you will be limited on what you can do making it "dumbed down" that is a worry of mine.

But we will see won't we.

So if I remap the keys to take advantage of a Nostromo SpeedPad on my PC, did I just "dumb down" the game for everyone else? Seriously, your concern is irrational.

[TasDil]

Don't know if this was already covered, but could someone explain the "Some people can't afford a PC" argument? As well as the "I can't spend $1000 or a PC!" argument?

You can get a PC for less than $400 out there, about the cost of a console. I can see how you could spare a console, I cannot understand how you could spare a PC. Furthermore, Cryptic said they were gonna try to make the game run on as many systems as feasible, so its not like this is gonna be a game that requires the ultimate virtual-reality system out there.

[Dustnite]

Don't know if this was already covered, but could someone explain the "Some people can't afford a PC" argument? As well as the "I can't spend $1000 or a PC!" argument?

You can get a PC for less than $400 out there, about the cost of a console. I can see how you could spare a console, I cannot understand how you could spare a PC. Furthermore, Cryptic said they were gonna try to make the game run on as many systems as feasible, so its not like this is gonna be a game that requires the ultimate virtual-reality system out there.

A $400 PC is going to have at best an onboard video card that won't even run games from 5 years ago. Building custom is more expensive than it used to be as well, so if anything pricing for gaming rigs just keeps going up.

I think the cheapest gaming rig I can build currently that would run DX9 games would be around $900 at least...

[TheMasterpiece]

A $400 PC is going to have at best an onboard video card that won't even run games from 5 years ago. Building custom is more expensive than it used to be as well, so if anything pricing for gaming rigs just keeps going up.

I think the cheapest gaming rig I can build currently that would run DX9 games would be around $900 at least...



That, except it might actually be more in most situations plus not everyone is into the pc. :D

Some poeple simply prefer consoles ( i love 360) and consoles are a great way ot play games now.

[ianobs]

Um, Apple has been shipping multi-button mice with their computers for years now.


if i must clarify i will, (sigh) my comments were in a joking tone. but i do harbor great resentment toward mac for putting out the imac with a mouse that has one button and is not much larger than a silver dollar. and being forced to use them at the computer lab at school. i need a great big manly sized mouse not one that might get caught under my fingernails.

[Admiral_Perseus]

I am all for console users being able to play this game, as long as it doen't dumb down the game at all and limit the imersion for PC users.

[lumpking69]

If it does include consoles, they must be kept away from the PC players or the PC game will suffer. They will dumb the PC game down so we are even with the console players. Keep them away from each other and on different servers.

[mactorrin]

Time will tell, but I fear it will make for a watered down game if its on consoles in same version.

[Dustnite]

If it does include consoles, they must be kept away from the PC players or the PC game will suffer. They will dumb the PC game down so we are even with the console players. Keep them away from each other and on different servers.

Do they have to sit in the back of the bus too? :)

[smalvarado]

Do they have to sit in the back of the bus too? :)

Nope. They just have to ride the short shuttlecraft.

Seriously though, I've said it before: All the PC only MMOs I've played have had no shortage of short bus goofballs with foul mouths and no concept of social niceties. PC gamers aren't as socially skilled as the console-haters think they are.

[DeathCarrot]

I could care less if this game comes out on the 360 too. Means more people to play with. But it better not hinder the PC release or so help me I'll hold my breath till I'm blue in the face then Cryptic will be sorry . . . yes sir they will.

[LordDave]

Having just played Mass Effect (PC version) I can honestly say...
Console Ports can be done successfully.

[Cryptic_Fan_101]

Don't forget the handicapped too. God forbid Cryptic dumbs down the game to make it accessible for them. :rolleyes:

[TheMasterpiece]

Having just played Mass Effect (PC version) I can honestly say...
Console Ports can be done successfully.



Well mass effect was developed for consoles and later ported to pc whereas cryptic is developing for pc/360 simultaneously

[TasDil]

A $400 PC is going to have at best an onboard video card that won't even run games from 5 years ago. Building custom is more expensive than it used to be as well, so if anything pricing for gaming rigs just keeps going up.

I think the cheapest gaming rig I can build currently that would run DX9 games would be around $900 at least...

I guess if you want to play the latest FPS or something, then yah, prob. need that much. But you could easily run an MMO (especially the kind that Cryptic seems to be aiming for, given their webcast comments) with a < $100 video card.

And no, gaming rigs are not getting more expensive. PCs used to be much more than $1000.

As for simply preferring XBox 360, that's a reasonable explanation... whatever suits your fancy. I do think that Cryptic should make the game for every single system they can, the more people who pay in the more money they'll have to make a great game. I just don't agree with the "ZOMG PCs are so pricey!" argument.

[Dustnite]

I guess if you want to play the latest FPS or something, then yah, prob. need that much. But you could easily run an MMO (especially the kind that Cryptic seems to be aiming for, given their webcast comments) with a < $100 video card.

And no, gaming rigs are not getting more expensive. PCs used to be much more than $1000.

As for simply preferring XBox 360, that's a reasonable explanation... whatever suits your fancy. I do think that Cryptic should make the game for every single system they can, the more people who pay in the more money they'll have to make a great game. I just don't agree with the "ZOMG PCs are so pricey!" argument.

PCs aren't pricing, gaming rigs are. Especially if you custom build. That's why some people prefer consoles because they are relatively cheaper and give you great graphics and allow the end user to use their TVs for monitors...

Please try running AoC on a 400 PC and tell me how it works out for you.

[LordDave]

Well mass effect was developed for consoles and later ported to pc whereas cryptic is developing for pc/360 simultaneously

Exactly, which means that if Mass Effect can be great with console controllers only, imagine what would happen with a hybrid system?

[severius]

about 99% are gettin this on pc and i for one belive mmos should be on PC...anyone else feel this game should not include consoles?

Nope, the elitist ideology that somehow PCs are better than consoles no longer fits the bill. Most PC players today are nothing more than delusional console players that think because they spent more money on a big old box that they are somehow better than the average console player when they know as little if not less about the technology in their box than the console players. Threads like this are proof positive that what I say is true.

[thefrayl]

Nope, the elitist ideology that somehow PCs are better than consoles no longer fits the bill. Most PC players today are nothing more than delusional console players that think because they spent more money on a big old box that they are somehow better than the average console player when they know as little if not less about the technology in their box than the console players. Threads like this are proof positive that what I say is true.

It's sad but true, in some cases anyway. I just do not understand what makes some hate console players so much, that they won't play a game if it's developed for both PC AND Console to begin with. How depressing. Oh well, it's their loss in the long run.

[Kinjiru]

It's sad but true, in some cases anyway. I just do not understand what makes some hate console players so much, that they won't play a game if it's developed for both PC AND Console to begin with. How depressing. Oh well, it's their loss in the long run.

That's why I gave up on this "discussion" a while ago.

[djnattyd]

Two things confuse me, number one is why threads like this are still being made and two, why every pc gamer and his mother seem to be constantly terrified of the game being "dumbed down" if its released on consoles as well. Clearly Cryptic are going to develop a different control method for the pc than they are the xbox, it would make no sense for them to assign commands to "Ctrl + Alt +F2" on a console same as it would no sense to assign commands to "LB + RT + X + A" on a pc. Anyone remotely intelligent would know that there are more than enough buttons on an xbox gamepad to make even the most complex of games playable.

UP, DOWN, LEFT, RIGHT, X, B, A, Y, RT, RB, LT, LB, R3, L3 (plus combinations of those pressed together.)

The highest selling gaming system in the past two years has been the Nintendo Wii, followed by the 360 which just shows that PCs' no longer have the dominance over the games industry that they once had. In regards of those with the antiquated view that consoles cant reproduce graphics as well as a PC i remember reading an article about a Dev studio that was using PS3s' to make PC games as they ran smoother than their PCs' did and displayed in true high def. In an earlier post somebody put that MMOs' have never worked on consoles, considering that the only MMORPG available on consoles is Final Fantasy Online this statement doesn't make sense as there is not enough types of this game to be able to draw any comparisons to PC-based MMORPGs.

[vp21ct]

wasn't this thread dead.

[djnattyd]

wasn't this thread dead.

i wish the whole topic was dead but unfortunately every couple of days a new one emerges

different title, same story... "sigh"

[rejarial]

ive said it once, ill say it again, cryptic should choose ONE (1) format for the game for launch to make sure the launch goes smoothly, THEN at a later date bring the trashbox 360 or PS3 OR both into the mix, but for the love of god, not at the same time! look, lets take a one game in particular: OBLIVION. ON the pc it has all its pixel shaders TURNED ON, on the trashbox 360, the devs had to re-engineer the game so the pixel shaders were OFF. me thinks that proves right there, PC IS superior, allways has, allways WILL be. dont like it? tough. dont get me wrong, consoles have their uses, and they can be fun, but when push comes to shove there is only soo much a consol can do and you will slam into a ceiling, on a pc however, the ONLY limit to how great your rig is, is <drum roll> YOUR willingingness/ability to shell out the cash for the upgrades. id love to see someone try to make a PS3 or a trashbox with a teraquad hard drive and 2 or 3 gigs worth of video mem. cant do it, not with out violating your warranty atleast, and if you screw something up, then your screwed. not with a pc. i honestly dont really care if they have this on pc, trashbox 360, ps3. <wii IF they are brave>, or any other console outthere, but i think atleast for release it should be PC only.

[Cryptic_Fan_101]

look, lets take a one game in particular: OBLIVION. ON the pc it has all its pixel shaders TURNED ON, on the trashbox 360, the devs had to re-engineer the game so the pixel shaders were OFF.

You mean they had to open up Notepad and change a one to a zero in a config file? This is the crux of your argument why it should be released first for the PC only?

[rejarial]

no, i was using Oblivion as an example. the truth of the matter is this: PC codes are significantly different from that of PS3 or the TrashBox 360. thing of it is, you have to make double or triple sets of codes or more to make the game useable for all intended platforms, why do you think they are not including MAC in the launch? thing is, the more platforms you want involved in launch or in the game period the more codes you must have and the longer its gonna take to release it and if uve been on the release date thread you can see the firestorm cryptic is causing by not revealing the date. 1 platform ie pc, ps3, trashbox 360, which ever you pick to launch with, program for it, beta for it, LAUNCH it, get the game going, bring in other systems. simple, clean, efficient. good strategy, good business. bad strategy, bad business: program, beta, launch WITH ALL PLATFORMS, watch as the servers go down and lag goes up and complaints start rolling in. ease of launch and ease of programming, logic dictates you launch with only one system, not multiple.

[MushroomGod]

Well my PC sux so I'd welcome it on the 360.

[Elbrim]

Absolutely. After seeing the displays at E3 there seems to be more of a trend to console MMO's as an untapped market. I'm worried that Champions Online will be "City of Heroes" Version 2.0, but it still looks interesting. It seems like the superhero MMO market will be crowded next year with that and DC Online.

As I've stated elsewhere, my biggest concern about console MMO's is the interactivity. I'm an active WoW player, and would have quit long ago if it wasn't for the guild that I've been with for the past two years. Half of the time I log in is just to chat with friends. This is hindered by the lack of keyboard on consoles, and as an Xbox 360 and Wii owner, I'm not a fan of purchasing peripherals for my console. Why spend $50-$100 on a keyboard when I can just use my computer? It seems to go against what MMO's have always been about is all.

I have a $10 usb keyboard that works just fine with my 360. I for one am looking forward to trying this game on 360. I have played Everquest, WoW, SWG, and other minor mmo's for many many years and am sick of the constant computer upgrades that these games are requiring.

I Would gladly pay the one time fee of a mouse and keyboard to play a good MMO game on the 360, cause i know when i pop it in, its going to run (barring red light death, wife yelling at me to get off the tv, kids sports that night,.....) :) Ohhh and to play a MMO on 60" bigscreen ! Ships flying, battles raging , running for your life from the Borg ! Man I cannot wait !

[thefrayl]

no, i was using Oblivion as an example. the truth of the matter is this: PC codes are significantly different from that of PS3 or the TrashBox 360. thing of it is, you have to make double or triple sets of codes or more to make the game useable for all intended platforms, why do you think they are not including MAC in the launch? thing is, the more platforms you want involved in launch or in the game period the more codes you must have and the longer its gonna take to release it and if uve been on the release date thread you can see the firestorm cryptic is causing by not revealing the date. 1 platform ie pc, ps3, trashbox 360, which ever you pick to launch with, program for it, beta for it, LAUNCH it, get the game going, bring in other systems. simple, clean, efficient. good strategy, good business. bad strategy, bad business: program, beta, launch WITH ALL PLATFORMS, watch as the servers go down and lag goes up and complaints start rolling in. ease of launch and ease of programming, logic dictates you launch with only one system, not multiple.

I love the maturity level in your posts. :rolleyes: How old are you?

And the engine is already running on PC and Xbox 360. Champions Online is slated for a simultaneous release on both platforms. So logic ACTUALLY dictates that they will more than likely follow the same plan.

Take you're precious WoW. They released the game for 2 platforms from the beginning. Look how that turned out.

Oh, and the pixel shaders on Obvlivion were most certainly ON, running on the 360. Even if they did have to turn them off, like Cryptic Fan said, it's as simple as changing one number in the .ini But unfortunately there is quite a bit more to change than that. Basically setting visual settings in stone for best performance, and changing the control mapping.

[Galv]

There's just no valid reason not to have any MMO on any of the next gen consoles, the 360 and PS3 are pretty much gaming pc's wrapped up in a nice little box for half the price anyway. This is even more true with the 360 as i can connect to my pc and use as windows media centre anyway. I'm no dev or progammer but i'm pretty sure there's not much difference between a pc game or 360 game and probably takes little effort to port over. I've even played with pc gamers on games that run on vista and 360 over xbox live.

[Vazuras]

I vote for PC only.

[jojobean]

If they dont dumb down the game mechanics so kiddies dont have to do any work Im fine with it but first and foremost MMO's should really be released for PC's only.. consoles change every 3-5 years so how can you make a long term game for a console when the newest thing keeps coming out ? A PC you just upgrade or buy a new computer if you know what your doing a PC can be built more cheaply than buying a console. Just my 2 cents

[Galv]

If they dont dumb down the game mechanics so kiddies dont have to do any work Im fine with it but first and foremost MMO's should really be released for PC's only.. consoles change every 3-5 years so how can you make a long term game for a console when the newest thing keeps coming out ? A PC you just upgrade or buy a new computer if you know what your doing a PC can be built more cheaply than buying a console. Just my 2 cents

Just because a new console comes out doesn't mean you rush out and get it, same with most pc's just because a graphic card comes out doesn't mean everyone goes and upgrades. Plus when the xbox 720 gets released (which is atleast year off) it will be backwards compatible.

[Deadzone]

If you design any game for PC, then it should be PC only. Everyone knows only with PCs can you do many extra things and depth in games than you can't do with any console.

If at a later date, then can always dumb down the game for a console. But don't dumb down a PC game for a console. I would consider that business suicide. Especially in this age of MMO and PC games in general.

[Cryptic_Fan_101]

If you design any game for PC, then it should be PC only. Everyone knows only with PCs can you do many extra things and depth in games than you can't do with any console.

If at a later date, then can always dumb down the game for a console. But don't dumb down a PC game for a console. I would consider that business suicide. Especially in this age of MMO and PC games in general.

Honestly, if they don't dumb it down, how can you expect to play it?

[Galv]

If you design any game for PC, then it should be PC only. Everyone knows only with PCs can you do many extra things and depth in games than you can't do with any console.

If at a later date, then can always dumb down the game for a console. But don't dumb down a PC game for a console. I would consider that business suicide. Especially in this age of MMO and PC games in general.

What are these many extra things and depth in games? how will it dumbed down?

[Galv]

Honestly, if they don't dumb it down, how can you expect to play it?

Very good point

[thefrayl]

What are these many extra things and depth in games? how will it dumbed down?

I believe he's referring to all of the extra things a PC can do. Which is why...

A } They are more expensive than a game console

B } They require more power to play a good looking game than a console

As for the dumbing down, I don't think he's played a console. Sounds like he's only read about FPS action console games (Which the PC L337s still brag about being better on the computer :rolleyes:) and thinks thats all there is.

[Galv]

I believe he's referring to all of the extra things a PC can do. Which is why...

A } They are more expensive than a game console

B } They require more power to play a good looking game than a console

As for the dumbing down, I don't think he's played a console. Sounds like he's only read about FPS action console games (Which the PC L337s still brag about being better on the computer :rolleyes:) and thinks thats all there is.

Yea your probably right there. I don't remember any game getting dumbed down for consoles, and there's been loads of pc to 360 ports, well it's been more the other way over recent years. Mass Effect was a great rpg with alot of depth looked and played fantastic on the 360. Then there's Oblivion another rpg with alot of depth and that was one of the best games i've ever played i could go on but there's way too many.

[TheMasterpiece]

about 99% are gettin this on pc and i for one belive mmos should be on PC...anyone else feel this game should not include consoles?


Should definately be on consoles.

[aom0305]

I believe it should only exist on PC but hey sometimes there arent enough PCs in the house... one question has it been released yet cos ive searched and well all i find is TBA... if not does anyone know when?????????

[Galv]

I believe it should only exist on PC but hey sometimes there arent enough PCs in the house... one question has it been released yet cos ive searched and well all i find is TBA... if not does anyone know when?????????

They haven't even hinted at a release date, best guess would be 1-2 years

[thefrayl]

I believe it should only exist on PC but hey sometimes there arent enough PCs in the house... one question has it been released yet cos ive searched and well all i find is TBA... if not does anyone know when?????????

They have hinted plenty. In the web cast Jack said "In less than 3 years", and that he knows when it will release, but he can't say. He also said "Alot sooner than you think." My guess is the 2009 Holiday season. Pure speculation though :)

[Galv]

They have hinted plenty. In the web cast Jack said "In less than 3 years", and that he knows when it will release, but he can't say. He also said "Alot sooner than you think." My guess is the 2009 Holiday season. Pure speculation though :)

I really do hope it's that soon, thats not long to wait at all.

[_Pax_]

about 99% are gettin this on pc [...]
Wait, you went and asked each and every human being on the face of the planet Earth (a) whether ror not they would be gettign sTO, and (b) which platform they would get it for?

Got documentation of that unprecedently-thorough survey?

[...] and i for one belive mmos should be on PC...anyone else feel this game should not include consoles?

My Xbox is actually, RAM aside, a more advanced machine than my PC. Guess which one is more likely to be able to handle STO's graphics and such?

[_Pax_]

As to actual price, how much was/is the Xbox media remote? :P I was more going on "official" xbox pricing.
AFAIK, there's no "official Xbox 360 Wireless Keybaord". Any USB wireless should do fine.


It's not the "absence of the WoW crowd". My point stands about personal interaction....sure it's a blessing and a curse, but if you find a group of people you can connect with who are as sick of the aforementioned Chuck Norris jokes, it gives the user another reason to play, at least in my experience.

*shrug*

Then again, we're very likely to have some form of Voice Chat, if the game is on the 360; that's pretty much de rigeur.

There are some of us also hoping for a PS3 release.
So'm I - not because I own a PS3, but because the more, the merrier. ^_^

Although I’m for ps3, I think that would limit the amount of users online thus only playstation network users would be on ps3, computer users on the internet, and Xbox users on Xbox live.

If there isn't any collaboration on systems. There would have to make the game for pc use only.
There's really nothing inherent that stops a PC and an Xbox from being on the same MMO server. IIRC, Champions Online is being developed such that yes, everyone will be together on the same servers, regardless of the hardware used to get there.

I have nothing against console players. I love consoles like the WII, they have cool casual games.

but to be honnest the lack of keyboard makes me thinkthat more complex games are not really suitable for consoles.

but anyway maybe you can attach a keyboard to the Wii or PS3 or so, then it is fine.
You're in luck. As everyone has been saying up and down the forums for both of Cryptic's MMO projects, modern consoles all sport USB ports. My '360 Elite has three of them - two in front, one in back.

MMOS arn't really succssful on the consoles, sure there is FFXI but if you look not a lot of people bought it on the Xbox 360. There is one reason for this. Xbox Live costs money, and so does the MMO subscription so your paying twice for something to buy and i don't think a lot of cnsole gamers would like that.
Misinformation, thy name is .... well, this time, "Xercies".

To play any subscription-based game - currently, FFXI or PSU; soon, also Champions Online and maybe STO too - you do NOT have to have a Gold account with Xbox Live. You only need a SILVER account. So no, YOU DO NOT PAY TWICE.

Sure console players can use Keyboard and mouse but i think Cryptic are just going to develop most of the game for the controller and maybe map the buttons on a keyboard making it a really terrible game if you want to use a keyboard. So you will be limited on what you can do making it "dumbed down" that is a worry of mine.
... chatting aside, exactly how many buttons do you truly need to use?

Thoughtful, intelligent assignment of control functions can wring out quite a lot of effectiveness and efficiency from a console controller. For an example, the D-Pad could be assigned in a very efficient way, for example, if used to control power distribution. Let's say you have five very broad ways to allocate available pwoer: balanced, focussed on maneuver/speed, focussed on weapons, focussed on shields, or focussed on sensors (in battle, this might include ECM/ECCM). So, you could have:


UP = focus power on WEAPONS
RIGHT = focus power on PROPULSION
DOWN = focus power on SHIELDS
LEFT = focus power on SENSORS
(re-select current Focus mode) = Balanced distribution


That way, the D-pad is actually standing in for five keys on your PC keyboard. And in total, the 360 controller has:

4 buttons on the D-pad (Up, Down, Left, and Right)
2 Triggers (Left, Right)
2 Shoulder buttons (Left, Right)
4 Main buttons (X, Y, A, and B)
2 admittedly-inconvenient-to-use buttons, under each Analog control ("L3" and "R3")
2 analog controls, one of which can stand in for the typical WASD but with finer degrees of distinction for diagonal movement.


Other than for text-based chat, of course ... I'm not at all convinced that the Xbox's default controller is really as unsuited for MMO gaming as many pro-PC people keep asserting, here and elsewhere.

And even if it somehow actually is unsuited ... there's always those USB ports.

Don't know if this was already covered, but could someone explain the "Some people can't afford a PC" argument? As well as the "I can't spend $1000 or a PC!" argument?
Some people are adults, and have bills to pay?

Some people, adult or otherwise, don't have forty or fifty thousand dollar annual salaries?

You can get a PC for less than $400 out there, about the cost of a console.
Um, aren't you forgetting to include the price of a monitor, there? I mean, what good is a PC, if you have no screen to look at??

On top of which, no $400 PC is going to be able to run much of anything newly released, sorry. Even WOW has minimum system requirements ...

no, i was using Oblivion as an example. the truth of the matter is this: PC codes are significantly different from that of PS3 or the TrashBox 360.
Hatedom (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hatedom), much?

The funny thing is, you're dead wrong about the supposed difference between Xbox coding and PC coding. The Xbox was designed to be specifically easy to 'port to and from Windows. It uses a custom, stripped-down version of the Windows OS, even.

To top it off: Cryptic has already developed a "generic MMO engine", adaptible to a wide range of styles, genres, etc, that works on the Xbox 360 and the PC alike.

Said in response to "rejarial":
I love the maturity level in your posts. :rolleyes: How old are you?
Please, don't insult hte young. I've had good, intelligent, well-reasoned conversations with youngesters as young as 12 and 13 before. Immaturity is not the sole province of the young ... ^_^

consoles change every 3-5 years so how can you make a long term game for a console when the newest thing keeps coming out?
Ask the PSU folks. HAsn't that franchise survived three entire consoles, now?

Not to mention: I still have a PS2 hooked up to my TV. Granted, it gets significantly less use than my Xbox. But then, it doesn't get zero use ...

If you design any game for PC, then it should be PC only. Everyone knows only with PCs can you do many extra things and depth in games than you can't do with any console.
List any three MMO-related things you can do with a PC, which are physically or logistically impossible to do with a Console.

I'll be shocked if you can even name ONE, mind.

Said in response to "Deadzone":
Honestly, if they don't dumb it down, how can you expect to play it?
Oh, SNAP! :)

[Knoxic]

Just curious but why does it matter what platforms the game will come out on? It's not like PC players would be playing with Xbox online players. PC players would play together on Cryptic servers and console players would be playing together on the console servers.

[_Pax_]

Just curious but why does it matter what platforms the game will come out on? It's not like PC players would be playing with Xbox online players. PC players would play together on Cryptic servers and console players would be playing together on the console servers.
Not neccessarily true.

STO is likely to be using a Trek-modded version of the same engine Champions Online will use. Early previews given to the gaming-industry media has both Xbox 360's and PCs connected to the same server, playing together in the same environment at the same time.

So don't assume the Console players and PC players will be segregated like that. There's no guarantee either way.

[Knoxic]

Not neccessarily true.

STO is likely to be using a Trek-modded version of the same engine Champions Online will use. Early previews given to the gaming-industry media has both Xbox 360's and PCs connected to the same server, playing together in the same environment at the same time.

So don't assume the Console players and PC players will be segregated like that. There's no guarantee either way.

Ok gotcha, but I still can't see the disadvantages of playing on the same server as a console player. I have both a PC (that will be able to play this game at it's fullest) and a Xbox 360. As long as the connectivity and lag issues can be dealt with (which is true of any game you play be it PC based or console based) I cannot see a reason to be upset that the player may interact with each other.

It's not like PC players are more mature than console players, or vise versa. We are all gamers :D

[President_Shinzon]

I for a long time was hoping for PC only, that changed when I started making freinds around here who want it for console.

I want to be able to play with them (the three or four of you know who you are I believe) and I want them to be able to enjoy it in the media they chose, so long as I can do the same. A mixed server for Console and PC, while ambitious, is a hypothetic possibility I'm now willing to explore.

[Cryptic_Fan_101]

Ok gotcha, but I still can't see the disadvantages of playing on the same server as a console player. I have both a PC (that will be able to play this game at it's fullest) and a Xbox 360. As long as the connectivity and lag issues can be dealt with (which is true of any game you play be it PC based or console based) I cannot see a reason to be upset that the player may interact with each other.

It's not like PC players are more mature than console players, or vise versa. We are all gamers :D

See, that's your first mistake. You're trying to apply reason and logic to an issue steeped in bias and prejudice. And for goodness sakes, there aren't enough misspellings and use of ALL-CAPS formating to take your post seriously. ;)

[_Pax_]

Oh, don't think I'm saying there'll be problems, Knoxic. I don't think there's any reason to be worried about problems arising from "shared servers" ... indeed, I'm looking FORWARD to the possibility.

And FWIW? I'll more likely (at age 37, currently) to be playing on my Xbox 360. Andno, I don't have nay kids ... so it is indeed my toy. ^_^

[Knoxic]

See, that's your first mistake. You're trying to apply reason and logic to an issue steeped in bias and prejudice. And for goodness sakes, there aren't enough misspellings and use of ALL-CAPS formating to take your post seriously. ;)

LoL, fRoM NoW oN ILL tRy HaRdEr!!)1011 :p

[Knoxic]

Oh, don't think I'm saying there'll be problems, Knoxic. I don't think there's any reason to be worried about problems arising from "shared servers" ... indeed, I'm looking FORWARD to the possibility.

And FWIW? I'll more likely (at age 37, currently) to be playing on my Xbox 360. Andno, I don't have nay kids ... so it is indeed my toy. ^_^

I'm 31 with children and honestly i would rather be able to play on both. The PC is mine alone though and while i do enjoy watching por...I mean playing games on it sometimes i want to stretch out in front of the TV and play Xbox. Would be nice if both versions came out on the same box though! :o

[_Pax_]

I'm 31 with children and honestly i would rather be able to play on both.
Yeah, if I had kids, or if my partner were a Tekker, I'd feel t same way ... so that, you know, let's play together would be more possible. ^_^

Would be nice if both versions came out on the same box though!
In that cse? Buy the Xbox version; logically, if you account can be used either through PC client or a console client, you should just be ableto download the PC client (for free), and log in to your already-paid-for account.

Whereas theConsole is less able to download such clients for free. (Then again, a perma-Tria-offer through the Marketplace would suffice for that, as well ... maybe ...)

[JadeEngima]

Goddamit, I said SHIELDS UP!

[Exezer]

Ehh as long as they put it on PC im happy ....if anyone uses the consoles for controls and doesnt have a keyboard and mouse and uses a controller please dont complain about the controls and everything will be fine lol.

[Deadzone]

Honestly, if they don't dumb it down, how can you expect to play it?

I'd have to ask you the same exact question. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

You have anything of subsance to add to your reply..you know, on topic?? Or was that just a troll response?

[mezlabor]

Just curious but why does it matter what platforms the game will come out on? It's not like PC players would be playing with Xbox online players. PC players would play together on Cryptic servers and console players would be playing together on the console servers.

Patches. For xbox 360 games microsoft has to approve every patch before it can be applied to the 360. that slows down the patching process for 360. That limitation doesnt exist for pc. So it would take us twice as long to get patches for the 360. Now if we played on different servers pc players would have a much timlier patch scheduele then console players.

[_Pax_]

Patches. For xbox 360 games microsoft has to approve every patch before it can be applied to the 360.
First I've heard of that.

that slows down the patching process for 360. That limitation doesnt exist for pc. So it would take us twice as long to get patches for the 360. Now if we played on different servers pc players would have a much timlier patch scheduele then console players.
No, not really. Same server or separate server, Content will flow at a steady, uniform pace. Why, you might ask? Because it keeps things simpler on Cryptic's side of things, I answer.

[awhite75]

So what about buttons and controls? Most MMOs function in a way that using a keyboard and mouse are best. I know you can hook up a keyboard to Xbox as an option. But the game would have to function with the Xbox controller without requiring a keyboard.

I think this dynamic is why some may be concerned that this game would be "dumbed down" for consoles. With MMOs that I have played it would seem very cumbersome to use a console controller. How could this game work with just a console controller and no keyboard?

[thefrayl]

Patches. For xbox 360 games microsoft has to approve every patch before it can be applied to the 360. that slows down the patching process for 360. That limitation doesnt exist for pc. So it would take us twice as long to get patches for the 360. Now if we played on different servers pc players would have a much timlier patch scheduele then console players.

Wrong, since updates are not downloaded and applied through Xbox Live. It is completely seperate.

[marscentral]

Of course, you could argue that Microsoft having to approve the updates will mean (in theory) that they have had another level of scrutiny and thus be less buggy.

I know they're superhero MMOs, designed for action, but both Champions and DCU Online are PC and console and don't appear to suffer for it. But I'm not going to argue the dumbed down controller thing for the hundredth time.

[terranova3y2]

Wrong, since updates are not downloaded and applied through Xbox Live. It is completely seperate.

I think he means that microsoft have to approve all patches for games before they can be released rather than xbox live itself.

I played FFXI on PC for a few years and then recently thought I'd try it on 360 and I have to say it was the biggest disaster and has definitely put me off playing a cross platform mmo on console again.

Like with most developers, I reckon they are developing it for PC (on PC) and it will be ported to other consoles. If you take FFXI for an example, the game was the exact same just without a keyboard, it was generally the same on PS2 as well, except they had an option of playing it with a keyboard.

I doubt it will be dumbed down because that would mean losing/annoying the majority player base.

[thefrayl]

I think he means that microsoft have to approve all patches for games before they can be released rather than xbox live itself.

I played FFXI on PC for a few years and then recently thought I'd try it on 360 and I have to say it was the biggest disaster and has definitely put me off playing a cross platform mmo on console again.

Like with most developers, I reckon they are developing it for PC (on PC) and it will be ported to other consoles. If you take FFXI for an example, the game was the exact same just without a keyboard, it was generally the same on PS2 as well, except they had an option of playing it with a keyboard.

I doubt it will be dumbed down because that would mean losing/annoying the majority player base.

I know what he meant, and it's not the case.

And I've done the same thing with FFXI. But I thought it was infinitely better on the 360. And the 360 does have usb ports. I played it with a wireless keyboard just fine...

[Galv]

Wrong, since updates are not downloaded and applied through Xbox Live. It is completely seperate.

Yea, i'm sure FFXI patched throught the client and not xbox live, dashboard updates are totally different.

[Cryptic_Fan_101]

So what about buttons and controls? Most MMOs function in a way that using a keyboard and mouse are best. I know you can hook up a keyboard to Xbox as an option. But the game would have to function with the Xbox controller without requiring a keyboard.

I think this dynamic is why some may be concerned that this game would be "dumbed down" for consoles. With MMOs that I have played it would seem very cumbersome to use a console controller. How could this game work with just a console controller and no keyboard?

Forget about consoles for a moment. What about the handicapped? Would you argue the game shouldn't be accessible to them, if they can't use a keyboard?

[Cryptic_Fan_101]

You have anything of subsance to add to your reply..you know, on topic?? Or was that just a troll response?

There was something of substance here?

If you design any game for PC, then it should be PC only. Everyone knows only with PCs can you do many extra things and depth in games than you can't do with any console.

If at a later date, then can always dumb down the game for a console. But don't dumb down a PC game for a console. I would consider that business suicide. Especially in this age of MMO and PC games in general.

[Feryk]

If they think they can make a console version of this game, how and why they want to do it is up to them. But they better do it right. If it screws up game play, then I'll stop playing. I'm betting most people would.

I'm a n00b at MMOs. This is the first one I'm seriously considering. I have time in my life for ONE MMO at a time. I think I'm probably the kind of person that Cryptic is hoping to draw with a franchise like ST. Console or not? I don't really care. Just make MY experience as cool as possible for as long as possible and I'll be happy.

[_Pax_]

So what about buttons and controls? Most MMOs function in a way that using a keyboard and mouse are best.
That is entirely a mattr of opinion. Just as it is for FPS games.

I know you can hook up a keyboard to Xbox as an option. But the game would have to function with the Xbox controller without requiring a keyboard.
Says who? Can you play, for example, Rock Band without any of the specialised controllers? Can you play it well ...?

[Keller]

I don't mind people playin on consoles. I willl play it on my pc though.

As for Cryptic I think they will have an easier job to make something for consoles than for a pc. The hardware of a pc is never the same and a console changes only every few years. So they know what the hardware is capable of with a console.

[Lejon]

Well I say thay should make it for as many hardware/software platforms as posible, the bigger it will be!
The more people can experience the wonderfull world of Star Trek :)

As a MMO adict. (Play 6MMOs atm. with a total count of more than 10)
Im very used to playing on the PC (Witch in this case is NOT Equal to Windows)
And a console type of controller would take some getting used to.
But I dont think that a MMO would need to be "dumbed down" to play on a consol.
Its just that traditionaly consols has not been that connected as thay are starting to get now with 360 and PS3.
So all MMOs have natuarly been made for a PC with Keyboard and mice as a standard of control.
But dont bee fooled to believe that Keyboard and mice is the only way to play a PC MMO for that.
Ther has been specaly made controllers for PC MMO games, although with quite many buttons compaired to a consol controller.
But that is as the games wher designed for it.

I believe it to be very much posible to make a good way of controlling a MMO with a consol controller, if its actualy designed that way from the begining.

The main diffrence between KB+Mice vs. Consol controller is the Mice. (a hand controller is just a keyboard with fewer buttons.
While the Mice has been replaced with semianalog sticks. Witch has the dissadvantage of not beeing able to in a nice enugh way make someone able to tell its avatar to turn 180 degrees in less than a second.
I dont think this will be a major problem with Star ships though hehe.

Aslong as thay manage to make a controllscheme for Consol and PC that both are satisfyed with I dont think ther will be a problem.

Ther is also actualy an advantage to it beeing on Consols aswell as PC for the PC owner.
For the games lifespand it wont be able to incorpirate new things that would make the game run incredibly slow on the original hardware, as a consol has the downside of beeing kinda stuck to its hw-specs.
So PC owners will Likely not be forced to upgrade ther hardware in the same way as has been the case with older MMOs.

[thefrayl]

I concur. Except for the joypad "disadvantage" in speed. I personally find it much easier to quickly and accurately move my camera/turn my character with an analog pad on my 360 than with a mouse. It's all in the preference.

And yes I use a high dollar precision gaming mouse, but I find it just doesn't give the same results with ease. I also hate having to pick up the mouse and reset it in the opposite direction before continuing my movement in certain cases. High sensitivity HELPS solve this problem, but it still happens in heated moments.

[Lejon]

I concur. Except for the joypad "disadvantage" in speed. I personally find it much easier to quickly and accurately move my camera/turn my character with an analog pad on my 360 than with a mouse. It's all in the preference.

And yes I use a high dollar precision gaming mouse, but I find it just doesn't give the same results with ease. I also hate having to pick up the mouse and reset it in the opposite direction before continuing my movement in certain cases. High sensitivity HELPS solve this problem, but it still happens in heated moments.

Yeah its very much a preference.
I remember in the early 90s when we would play FPS with Keyboards only and we wher so fast and accurate with that.
Then one day after we had been playing Quake One for a few weaks at school (now later 90s) one guy start using the mice for aiming insted of the traditional 6 keys (LRUP S-L/R). And we would just get owned hehe :)
But he stuck with it telling us that once he got that figured out he would own us.
And very much so a few weeks later we did not stand a chanse any more. So we had to move to KB+Mice aswell.

I clearly remember that one day a few years later finding myself making multiple headshots on people after first turning 180 degrees towards a person behind me I could only hear in my headphones.
I then thought back to the days when I only played with KeyBoard and was glad my schoolmate got the message through :)

And although I understand you can turn very quickly with thouse analog sticks on a hand controller by pushing them as fare, i dont think I could ever get the same presition in that as with a mice. But Im sure someone that has "grownup" with it can. :)

[KO_Gilligan]

Consoles are king. We could very easy get it on Consoles only if it wasn't an MMO... but I digress.

The thing about Consoles is they are a gaming appliance. Mass produced and all the same. Multi-use PCs with upgrades and variants have never really made it into the living room next to the TV. Someday the Console will just have greater capabilities. But it will be a mass produced appliance.

It's interesting how other Appliances have notoriously failed to take away other PC tasks... Remember WebTV or the Internet Apliances? Even TIVO type devices really haven't taken on like they have in Europe from what I understand.

I hope office machines will always be on the bleeding edge of gaming, and never have to be put away for mass produced Office Appliances with on-chip productivity tools.... yech.

[Lejon]

Consoles are king. We could very easy get it on Consoles only if it wasn't an MMO... but I digress.

The thing about Consoles is they are a gaming appliance. Mass produced and all the same. Multi-use PCs with upgrades and variants have never really made it into the living room next to the TV. Someday the Console will just have greater capabilities. But it will be a mass produced appliance.

It's interesting how other Appliances have notoriously failed to take away other PC tasks... Remember WebTV or the Internet Apliances? Even TIVO type devices really haven't taken on like they have in Europe from what I understand.

I hope office machines will always be on the bleeding edge of gaming, and never have to be put away for mass produced Office Appliances with on-chip productivity tools.... yech.

Baaa *LMAO* :D

[_Pax_]

And although I understand you can turn very quickly with thouse analog sticks on a hand controller by pushing them as fare, i dont think I could ever get the same presition in that as with a mice. But Im sure someone that has "grownup" with it can. :)
With your keys and keyboard, with your heading / facing remainign constant, you have eight possible directions to move: forward, bckward, strafe left or right, and combinations of any two of those. You also have two, perhaps three, speeds (normal, plus faster and/or slower)

With analog controls, I have those same directional possibilities, AND all points in between. I also have absolute control over my speed - I can inch forward, I can dash, I can jog, I can walk, I can do anythign in between.

What I give up in precision of aiming (and with practise, that's preciously little, really) ... I gain in flexibility of movement.

[rejarial]

sorry to burst ur bubble there, consoles are not king, they are in fact by their very nature limited in scope. yes they game and game well, BUT they are always going to be out gunned in raw power by a PC each an every time, espec when the PC user has the $$ to pump the best of the best of the BEST gear into a case. ive never been able to confirm this, but rumor has it there is a PC out there that is home built with over 200 TB in memory on board with something like a 20ghz processor, again, ive never been able to confirm it, IF that rumor is true, then i bow down to the rich **** who built it, if its not true then well, wonderful dream it is, but SOME day, there WILL be a rig like that that is as easy to confirm as the sun is each day. take that rig with the grain of salt, i sure am.

[Kinjiru]

ive never been able to confirm this, but rumor has it there is a PC out there that is home built with over 200 TB in memory on board with something like a 20ghz processor, again, ive never been able to confirm it

I doubt that Bill Gates himself has a 20 ghz machine. I think you've been had. I don;t think it's possible to even benchmark something like that. I mean, that's so fast, it would finish a calculation before it could even get the numbers. :D

[KO_Gilligan]

sorry to burst ur bubble there, consoles are not king, they are in fact by their very nature limited in scope. yes they game and game well, BUT they are always going to be out gunned in raw power by a PC each an every time, espec when the PC user has the $$ to pump the best of the best of the BEST gear into a case. ive never been able to confirm this, but rumor has it there is a PC out there that is home built with over 200 TB in memory on board with something like a 20ghz processor, again, ive never been able to confirm it, IF that rumor is true, then i bow down to the rich **** who built it, if its not true then well, wonderful dream it is, but SOME day, there WILL be a rig like that that is as easy to confirm as the sun is each day. take that rig with the grain of salt, i sure am.

Actually I was just ordering a second 3870 for My quad-core rig today (really)... I have 3 PCI-e slots in my DDR3 gaming mainboard, and a 2lb CPU fan which allows me to frequently run overclocked without incident. I own 2 more machines running 512MB GPUs for the kids to game on.

I have an extra HD2600pro thats been sitting new in a box for months, a spare part for the kids machines (5 and 7 yrs :) ). I also have a classic gaming rig with Pinball controllers stuck to the sides of the keyboard and I can dual boot it into either Win98 or ME for my classic games.

I have a feedback driving wheel and a box full of various controllers. I have a collection of game Disks that my wife tries to sneak into and sell on ebay because there's so many, I'd never know... and the old ones fill a large bookcase and most are only in there jewel cases. There is not a singe console in my house. Not even an old Nintendo box..... none... I don't like them in my midst.

But in the Console vs PC war, consoles not only dominate, but they provide revenue that helps to develop our little meager assortment of fresh PC titles.

I have a business degree, and I know all about bursting bubbles... In this industry it happens to those of us who think PC gaming will ever dominate over a convenient gaming appliance.

[Nexus]

To the OP nope. Let people play on the systems of there choice.

[Omega1]

I'd rather play on the P.C but tbh i don't think its going to make a blind bit of difference, i have all three (P.C X-Box360 and PS3) but ii've always loved gaming on my P.C!

[BENIBOY]

and i want it on pc

[BATTLEHAMMER]

makes no diff to me wether it's on pc or console. I prefer most games on the pc.....but that's my choice.

[BorgBoy]

I’m sure it will be fine as long as it’s released on pc and console at the same time, I’d hate to get in to it and a year on have them cut down the controls/gameplay to try and run it on a console. It’s what they did with Star Wars Galaxies, around 150,000 players down to 20,000 in just over a year, lol.
Rob

[thefrayl]

I’m sure it will be fine as long as it’s released on pc and console at the same time, I’d hate to get in to it and a year on have them cut down the controls/gameplay to try and run it on a console. It’s what they did with Star Wars Galaxies, around 150,000 players down to 20,000 in just over a year, lol.
Rob

Well heres hoping this will be nothing like SWG. That game is trash. It always has been, imo. Even though the old skill system was great for customization, the game always looked and ran like crap. I am definately not a fan of SOE's offerings to the table...

[marscentral]

I’m sure it will be fine as long as it’s released on pc and console at the same time, I’d hate to get in to it and a year on have them cut down the controls/gameplay to try and run it on a console. It’s what they did with Star Wars Galaxies, around 150,000 players down to 20,000 in just over a year, lol.
Rob

I think that releasing it a year later on consoles and simultaneously cutting controls for PC users to accomodate them is an unlikely scenario. This is being developed with consoles in mind, so, even in the unlikely event of a delayed release, their won't be any changes for the PC user.

[Galv]

To be honest i don't mind PC users getting this game aslong as they don't have to "dumb/slow it down" for the sake of porting over the controls from gamepad to keyboard.:D

[KO_Gilligan]

To be honest i don't mind PC users getting this game aslong as they don't have to "dumb/slow it down" for the sake of porting over the controls from gamepad to keyboard.:D

Dumbing down games for the PC is a reality. Hardcore PC gamers (myself included) have a realistic concern regarding cross platform games not reaching their potential.

I know nobody wants to hear this but to insist that they don't dumb it down is worse. If they were forced to create PC games only, the revenues would not support such a vibrant market.

The biggest problem isn't the existance of consoles (in fact the ease of use is creating a huge market).

The biggest problem is the Egos of PC gamers thinking that we don't need consoles and that developers can keep their dual GPU monsters supplied with good new games. It's just not even possible without the console owners wallets feeding such a prolific industry.

So the games we get as middle ground are much better than the games we would be playing if we were going it alone.

[Galv]

Dumbing down games for the PC is a reality. Hardcore PC gamers (myself included) have a realistic concern regarding cross platform games not reaching their potential.

I know nobody wants to hear this but to insist that they don't dumb it down is worse. If they were forced to create PC games only, the revenues would not support such a vibrant market.

The biggest problem isn't the existance of consoles (in fact the ease of use is creating a huge market).

The biggest problem is the Egos of PC gamers thinking that we don't need consoles and that developers can keep their dual GPU monsters supplied with good new games. It's just not even possible without the console owners wallets feeding such a prolific industry.

So the games we get as middle ground are much better than the games we would be playing if we were going it alone.

Yes this so true of recent years i can't remember the last pc only game (if there has been 1) to break all records on it's release as with Halo 3 or GTA4. I doubt any dev's can afford not to release onto the console market. As someone pointed out to me in another threads there's over 12 million xbox live users (and that's just live users i'm not sure how many 360's have been bought) not to mention how many PS3's and Wi's that are out there and using there respective online networks. Mass Effect and Gears of War have been just 2 of the huge console successes ported to PC instead of the other way round and i'm pretty sure that trend is going to go on and increase.

[Mailman653]

Something that would influence my purchase of either a console or PC game is modding capabilities. Given that this is an MMO and may or may not have a lot of modding potential, I rather buy a PC game if I can mod things (uniforms for example) instead of having to live with the default stuff you might be provided with on a console.

That is unless there was some kind of online store with user submitted (Cryptic or by popular vote approved) things which can be purchased for those with the console version of the game and who otherwise wouldn't be able to profit from mods for the PC version.

[KO_Gilligan]

Yes this so true of recent years i can't remember the last pc only game (if there has been 1) to break all records on it's release as with Halo 3 or GTA4. I doubt any dev's can afford not to release onto the console market. As someone pointed out to me in another threads there's over 12 million xbox live users (and that's just live users i'm not sure how many 360's have been bought) not to mention how many PS3's and Wi's that are out there and using there respective online networks. Mass Effect and Gears of War have been just 2 of the huge console successes ported to PC instead of the other way round and i'm pretty sure that trend is going to go on and increase.

I think cross platform scalability will get increasingly better... I'm sure this game will look much better than it's console counterpart.

It's kinda funny how PC people insist on technology beyond what they think a console can deliver, yet millions of Console owners aren't complaining or rushing to buy PCs.

[_Pax_]

Dumbing down games for the PC is a reality. Hardcore PC gamers (myself included) have a realistic concern regarding cross platform games not reaching their potential.
Strongly disagree.

Don't blame the console controllers - blame the developers who ASSUME that console players must have an ultra-simplistic UI/control scheme. Blame the developers who ASSUME that console players are less able to handle reasonably complex control schemes.

Look at actual MMOs. You know what I controlled COH with? Mouse (two buttons), WASD, Tab, and keys 1-0 above the main keyboard. 17 buttons, and the mouse pointer. That's it. I could easily map all that out to my Xbox controller, keep the means of accessing each command simple, and still have button possibilities left over.

I'm serious about that. Just the left analog controller alone covers four entire buttons. Triggers, X/Y/A/B, and Shoulders are eight more. Right analog is the mouse-pointer (and in an MMO, you do NOT need hyper-speed and hyper-precision - reasonable console-FPS aiming speed and precision should be just fine). D-pad becomes a "shift" key set, with five settings, turning those eight buttons into forty buttons ... and no especial brainpower needed. (Returning to the default, or "#0", shift-state by re-selecting the current mode is not a mentally difficult task.)

That even avoids the admittedly-hard-to-use "L3" and "R3" buttons (under the analog sticks); I can see, however, using R3 to toggle the right stick between "camera control mode" and "mouse pointer mode". And we're still left with "Back" and "Start" to access not-in-play menu sets (your quest log, for example; long-range navigation; video/sound/etc options; those sorts of things).

If, beyond movement and camera control, a game truly needs more than forty buttons just to play it ... then IMO, there's something seriously and deeply wrong with that game. I mean, seriously ...! :eek:

The biggest problem is the Egos of PC gamers thinking that we don't need consoles and that developers can keep their dual GPU monsters supplied with good new games. It's just not even possible without the console owners wallets feeding such a prolific industry.
Also, too many PC gamers got their attitudes in the days when consoles really DID lack the necessary "oomf" or "power" or whatever to match PCs. That's not entirely true anymore, and with each generation, the "power gap" between console and PC narrows a bit more.

When it comes to graphics? My Xbox is better than my PC. Now I'll grant you, I only have an ATI Radeon x600; certainly not a "really really good" graphics card. But it's hardly crap, either ... just "kinda Joe Schmoe Average", really. I'll probably have to upgrade it for STO, almost definitely for Champions Online (their alpha preview requires an nVidia 7800 or better ...). But so far, it's been the equal of any MMO I might care to play.

But meanwhile, my Xbox? Outputs an HD signal up to 1080p (I just wish I had an HDTV to hook up to it), never suffers graphics-related stutter or lag (Bioshock runs perfectly smoothly, even with effects flying every which way, gorgeous water effects, dynamic lighting, the whole shebang).

And it does it on only 512MB of RAM ...! Ah, the glory of hyperspecialist machines!

That's where the PC-snobs get hung up, too. They look at the Xbox 360's half-gigabyte of ram, copared to their 4 or 8 gigabytes, and laugh ... forgetting all the while, that the 360 doesn't need 4 gigabytes of RAM. Consoles don't have the sort of OS overhead that PCs labor under: they don't have to have code written to speak genericly to any of a hundred thousand possible combinations of X and Y parts.

Instead, they have a dedicated, custom OS ... with "just what we have installed, and nothing more" specialised sets of drivers, tweaked to interface between X and Y part of the machine with 100% efficiency ... sparing nothing to help ensure compatibility, because that compatibility is built in from the foundation up.

Now, my 360 isn't going to do a lot of things that my PC does. I'm ot going to be opening huge spreadsheets with it, nosir. FPS-level-creating is probably better done on a machine that has a whole lot of RAM, for another example.

But when it comes to games? That's what consoles DO, and they do them very very well.

If they didn't, they wouldn't sell. At all. :)

[_Pax_]

Something that would influence my purchase of either a console or PC game is modding capabilities.
EDIT TO ADD: by the by, I love moddability too. It's one of the features I liked best about Morrowind and Oblivion for the PC, and for that matter, one of the things I liked best about the Thief series of games. Indeed, with Thief 1 and Thief 2, at least, some of the player-created missions were better (and more creative) than any of the developer-created missions!

And in Morrowind/Oblivion, adding new locations to see is always fun - not chat mods, mind, but I love to see what other people managed to do with the tools provided. Were I a capable programmer and artist, I might try my hand at a total-conversion mod myself ... sadly, my dreams outstrip my abilities on that front.

One of my favorite Strategy franchieses, Space Empires, is extremely mod-able as well. I've even made permanent, somewhat significant contributions to SE4's mod-making concepts myself.

Given that this is an MMO and may or may not have a lot of modding potential, I rather buy a PC game if I can mod things (uniforms for example) instead of having to live with the default stuff you might be provided with on a console.
Well.

Xbox 260's can look for additional, after-the-fact content - the console owner simply has to have that content stored locally, preferably on a hard drive. Case in point, the MAss Effect expansion content "Bring Down the Sky". That's not just "a hidden thing you can unlock", nosir, that's wholly new content.

And for an MMO, I am absolutely certain a hard-drive is going to be flat-out required in order to play. I expect to budget as much as 20GB of my drive - that's a sixth of it - to each of STO and Champions Online. Hopefully the clients won't both be in the 15GB neighborhood, but they might be (CO's alpha preview asks for 10GB of hard drive space ...!!).

HOWEVER ... don't expect to be modding anything to do with graphics, in an MMO. The reason? Everyone would have to download and install the SAME mod pack, in order for those graphics to show up.

UI mods, color schemes to help with various forms of colorblindness, language-localisation mods for the ingame help ... yeah, those I can see in an MMO. But graphics along the lines of crew uniforms ...? Not likely, not as a per-player modpack.

You'd do better, for that stuff, asking Cryptic to accept player submissions to be included as an Official Download. Which is to say, "uniform mods have a snowball's chance in hell of seeing the light of day in STO". Sorry.

That is unless there was some kind of online store with user submitted (Cryptic or by popular vote approved) things which can be purchased for those with the console version of the game and who otherwise wouldn't be able to profit from mods for the PC version.
Not impossible or unreasonable for there to be such a thing. It's even possible to use the LIVE Marketplace for this, at least with Xbox. Indeed, the idea of individual players being able to write, test, and sell UI mods via the MArketplace may help drive Console-specific mod development. Even if people only make a dolalr or two per download ... hey, money is money, right?

The main question with modding even UI stuff (the way WOW allows players to do - something I hope more and more MMOs follow suit on), is how to get the mod file from the 'net, onto your console's hard-drive - or, from your PC (where you'll be writing these things, yes even for your console) to the console-accessible Download Center.

[s32ndDamian]

I think cross platform scalability will get increasingly better... I'm sure this game will look much better than it's console counterpart.

It's kinda funny how PC people insist on technology beyond what they think a console can deliver, yet millions of Console owners aren't complaining or rushing to buy PCs.

I agree 100%. I play games on every platform available (but the PSP) and I will be playing this one on the PS3 when it launches so I can use the big tv. Most people don't want a game machine they have to constantly pour money into just to run the latest games. The potential is well within current gen consoles to make an amazing looking/playing game. See any number of current games out now like a Call of Duty 4 for instance. With the PS3 you can use a blue tooth keyboard/mouse, headset/mic. Just like a PC, and you can update the HD as large as you need it. We are nearing the point, probably the next gen of consoles, where the box on your tv will be a gaming PC with all the bells and none of the costly upgrade worries. Hell the PS3 is almost there now.

[Galv]

And for an MMO, I am absolutely certain a hard-drive is going to be flat-out required in order to play. I expect to budget as much as 20GB of my drive - that's a sixth of it - to each of STO and Champions Online. Hopefully the clients won't both be in the 15GB neighborhood, but they might be (CO's alpha preview asks for 10GB of hard drive space ...!!).

.

Even the Hard Disk space isn't an issue anymore, i'll either get 120gig for CO and STO or just buy another 20gig for each game. And it's well worth getting a hd tv if you can, i watched the STO trailer on my 360 and it looked even better.

[Galv]

I think cross platform scalability will get increasingly better... I'm sure this game will look much better than it's console counterpart.

It's kinda funny how PC people insist on technology beyond what they think a console can deliver, yet millions of Console owners aren't complaining or rushing to buy PCs.


Yea i agree there too, most the games i've played on the 360 look great on hd tv anyway, currently playing through dark sector and it's beautiful, lots of detail solid frames great lighting. Gears of War, Mass Effect, Viva Pinata, Oblivion, Halo 3, Star Trek Legacy...... i could go and on and on, all great playing and amazing looking games, all running super smooth, all with great online support whether it's downloadable content or multiplayer. CO and STO will be a great addition to this list i really do hope it happens.

[Rgoodfel]

*uncloaks*

*fires distributors at Glav*

[Galv]

*uncloaks*

*fires distributors at Glav*

*"engineering to bridge we've got a warp core breach in progress and there's nothing i can about it"*

[Rgoodfel]

*trasmistion to Galv*

BortaS bIr jablu'DI' reH QaQqu' nay'
(When cold revenge is served, the dish is always very good)

*cloaks*

[Galv]

*trasmistion to Galv*

BortaS bIr jablu'DI' reH QaQqu' nay'
(When cold revenge is served, the dish is always very good)

*cloaks*

*Galv learns to never insult a Kilingon again*

[Rgoodfel]

That was fun thanks Galv :)

[Galv]

Yea you too:)

[_Pax_]

Even the Hard Disk space isn't an issue anymore, i'll either get 120gig for CO and STO or just buy another 20gig for each game. And it's well worth getting a hd tv if you can, i watched the STO trailer on my 360 and it looked even better.
^_^ I shelled out the extra $$ for an Elite. Got a lovely 120GB hard drive, and comes in sexy, sexy black ... ^_^

[_Pax_]

*Galv learns to never insult a Kilingon again*

LOL. At least, not LIVE ones ... nor those with living relatives ...

[rejarial]

well, heres the thing with SWG, the reason, as far as i can tell why soo many ppl abandoned the game was this: the new game "enhancements" that they put out. heres what i mean, back when i first started to play, you had to earn jedi the HARD way, i mean you have to become force sensitive and all that fun stuff, then you had to go thru the trials. me, i was 3/4 the way to jedi, i was on the verge of being able to take the trials to get jedi and what does SOE do? they screw up the game by re-tooling and removing and mixing up crap. the worst offense of all was giving jedi to anyone who wanted it, even the new comers whod not done a bloo dy thing to earn it. then to make things worse they nerfed jedi soo badly it wasnt even funny. jedi's used to be GODS in that game, and then all of a sudden, jedis were paper dolls. thats what caused the departures IMO.

[Lejon]

I doubt that Bill Gates himself has a 20 ghz machine. I think you've been had. I don;t think it's possible to even benchmark something like that. I mean, that's so fast, it would finish a calculation before it could even get the numbers. :D

How many GHz a CPU goes at is not what is interesting.
Its how many FLOPS (FLoating point Operations Per Second)
Witch is the standard "benchmark" for CPU Prossesing power.

Today CPUs in general dont increase very much in the number of Hz, as thay used to do.
But thay still increase rapidly in the amount of FLOPS thay can do.

What you do in sted is put in more cores in a CPU (360 has 3 Cores I think while PS3 has 7, and the atm. most powerfull production PC has 4 cores (with 6, 8 and even 12 core models to come)

However it is very likely that someone has stuffed a few quad cores on one mother board and such totaly get many more flops than even the PS3. Although just as with the PS3 all the cores dont do much good unless you make programs/games that can actualy take advantage of them.

As it stands now, the PS3's CPU is more powerfull than the avrage home gaming PC, especaly if you compair price. (some people actualy cluster PS3s running Linux for complex calculations. Ther is a Youtube video of how a bunch of students clustered a few PS3s and wrote a program for Linux that would use all thouse cores to in real time render a Car Model as real as a car ever has been rendered in real time to that date.)

Ok that said, PC vs Console debate is kinda silly.
cus today Consoles are PCs with lots of cosmetic. (That both PS3 and 360 can run a PC OS like Linux should clarify that)
So saying one is better than the other when it comes to hardware is just silly.

And when it comes to the more fussy stuff like how easy something is to use and such, its only a matter of taste.

Edit:
More to the point. Iv never herd of anyone clocking a CPU to 20GHz but its sertanly not imposible.
Few years ago some people rebuilt a 486 PC (originaly 33 or 66MHz) inside a freezer and clocked it up to about 200Mhz.
If the same was done with todays CPUs 20GHz is not fare fetched.

[SovWell]

It Should Be PC Only! :cool:

[Galv]

LOL. At least, not LIVE ones ... nor those with living relatives ...

Indeed. Did you get a transfer cable bundled with the 120GB hard drive? so you could transfer all your old save games and stuff?

[Galv]

And when it comes to the more fussy stuff like how easy something is to use and such, its only a matter of taste.

Yes this very true when it comes to controls, i've been playing games since ZX Spectrum, and have owned every console since then, execpt for the PS3 and Wi. I've never been able to get use to using the mouse and WASD controls i've always prefered the control pads because that's what i've gotten use to. Even when playing games on my PC i use xpader to map all controls to the 360 pad. Plus the PC gamers can knock consoles all day but at the end it for £200 i can get very powerful games machine that has media centre, online functions and probably the best controlerpad design so far, with an amazing catalogue of games that i always know will work.

[Lejon]

Yes this very true when it comes to controls, i've been playing games since ZX Spectrum, and have owned every console since then, execpt for the PS3 and Wi. I've never been able to get use to using the mouse and WASD controls i've always prefered the control pads because that's what i've gotten use to. Even when playing games on my PC i use xpader to map all controls to the 360 pad. Plus the PC gamers can knock consoles all day but at the end it for £200 i can get very powerful games machine that has media centre, online functions and probably the best controlerpad design so far, with an amazing catalogue of games that i always know will work.

Yes When it comes to entertainment Consoles are very much more for the money.
That is unless ofcourse you see Development as entertainment in it self :D

[up2zero]

i think it would be good to have both. maybe there is more than one person in the house and not enough pc's to go around

[Galv]

Yes When it comes to entertainment Consoles are very much more for the money.
That is unless ofcourse you see Development as entertainment in it self :D

Well you could alwasy got one of those development 360's have no idea what there called but seen them in many of Lionheads dev videos of Fable 2

[Galv]

i think it would be good to have both. maybe there is more than one person in the house and not enough pc's to go around

Thats exactly my problem, the mrs is always on WOW.

[_Pax_]

Indeed. Did you get a transfer cable bundled with the 120GB hard drive? so you could transfer all your old save games and stuff?

Um, no, the Elite came WITH that drive, off the shelf. There wasn't anything TO transfer. ^_^

[djnattyd]

i think its time that the whole debate of PC v console was dropped, Cryptic have already made up their minds and no amount of b.i.t.c.hing is going to change the fact that this game is going to be cross-platform. Even games that have traditionally been PC exclusives have made the jump to console such as quake and unreal, the reason being that there is money to be earned from it. Development studios and publishers exist for one reason, to line their pockets with our hard earned cash i think that we should all be happy that somebody rescued STO from the ruins of PE and are continuing to make it as it could easily have dissapeared into the depths of hell. However anyone that thinks that their idea of PC only is the best way to go should consider doing a few courses in game development and business management then afterwards, start a relationship with AMD or Intel and IBM so they have the hardware to create a game, then apply for the Star Trek license from CBS/Paramount and hope that it then sells well enough that they have the cash to pay for the best legal team in the world to represent them in the inevitable court battle that Cryptic will engage them in for theft of IP.

[Hagon]

I have no qualms with the game being made for consoles as well if that's what Cryptic chooses to do.

With a game in development saying that they'd have to "dumb down" the controls is pretty much a non-sequtur in my opinion.

I personally discount any concerns regarding the in-game community as well, seeing as many PC gamers are just as obnoxious as any you'd find coming to play on consoles.

[KO_Gilligan]

I have no qualms with the game being made for consoles as well if that's what Cryptic chooses to do.

With a game in development saying that they'd have to "dumb down" the controls is pretty much a non-sequtur in my opinion.

I personally discount any concerns regarding the in-game community as well, seeing as many PC gamers are just as obnoxious as any you'd find coming to play on consoles.

Well I wouldn't go that far.... As an avid PC gamer, I'm certain that my console bretheran are a tiny bit more obnoxious, but I have learned to tolerate that.

I'm into mouse aim, but dumbing down controls really seems like a siily point to try and make. PC controls could be more complex, but I've seen too many simplified PC controls to blame it on Consoles. I blame dumbed down controls on the nature for some games to have a lesser complexity. I'd really rather not use my whole keyboard anyway.

I believe mouse aim is better for shooters, but it totally negates my point... and consoles are now gaining different control inrterfaces, as in Wii or with Mouse / Keyboard capability.

Control superiority will not be exclusive to consoles only because of my beloved USB port in which they will make me one if anything catastrophic like superior console controls actually happens :rolleyes:

I do think that games are dumbed down for cross platform with Consoles, but that the gap is getting narrow as to technology. To see all this arguement about the controls specifically really misses any kind of valid point.

[marscentral]

I blame dumbed down controls on the nature for some games to have a lesser complexity. I'd really rather not use my whole keyboard anyway.


I made the point a long time ago (in a galaxy far far away..) that "dumbed down" controls aren't necessarily bad controls. Games can be fun on two buttons or 200, it's really down to whether they're intuitive and appropriate for the game at hand. That's why I say it will be how Cryptic design ST:O that will make or break it (and there's no reason to think they'll break it) not whether it caters for consoles or not.

[Hagon]

Well I wouldn't go that far.... As an avid PC gamer, I'm certain that my console bretheran are a tiny bit more obnoxious, but I have learned to tolerate that.Heh, well I'm not. How many of the apparently PC gamers conducted themselves on this forum in the first while is one good example of why (it has become more civil now). In my opinion that is.

I'm into mouse aim, but dumbing down controls really seems like a siily point to try and make. PC controls could be more complex, but I've seen too many simplified PC controls to blame it on Consoles. I blame dumbed down controls on the nature for some games to have a lesser complexity. I'd really rather not use my whole keyboard anyway.

I believe mouse aim is better for shooters, but it totally negates my point... and consoles are now gaining different control inrterfaces, as in Wii or with Mouse / Keyboard capability.

Control superiority will not be exclusive to consoles only because of my beloved USB port in which they will make me one if anything catastrophic like superior console controls actually happens :rolleyes:

I do think that games are dumbed down for cross platform with Consoles, but that the gap is getting narrow as to technology. To see all this arguement about the controls specifically really misses any kind of valid point.You do know that that in fact wasn't the point I was trying to make right/?

[Cryptic_Fan_101]

well, heres the thing with SWG, the reason, as far as i can tell why soo many ppl abandoned the game was this: the new game "enhancements" that they put out. heres what i mean, back when i first started to play, you had to earn jedi the HARD way, i mean you have to become force sensitive and all that fun stuff, then you had to go thru the trials. me, i was 3/4 the way to jedi, i was on the verge of being able to take the trials to get jedi and what does SOE do? they screw up the game by re-tooling and removing and mixing up crap. the worst offense of all was giving jedi to anyone who wanted it, even the new comers whod not done a bloo dy thing to earn it. then to make things worse they nerfed jedi soo badly it wasnt even funny. jedi's used to be GODS in that game, and then all of a sudden, jedis were paper dolls. thats what caused the departures IMO.

No, here's the thing with SWG. They lost more than half their initial subscribers shortly after launch, and were hemorrhaging an average of ten thousand subscribers —per month— after that. This was before the NGE. And this is neither speculation nor conjecture. I'm citing one of the game's developers. (http://rubenfield.com/?p=86)

Now there's scores of potential reasons for this, such as bugs, poorly implemented systems, exploits, lack of content, and so on. But as a former player (and long-time Star Wars fan), I'd argue Jedi significantly contributed. They monopolized far too much of the developers' and players' time alike. And they were immersion-breaking for the setting, especially so when they became the province of power-gaming munchkins who to this day, apparently, still don't appreciate that the plural of Jedi is Jedi (not Jedis, Jedi's, nor Jedis'), and that having an "alpha" class in a massively-multiplayer game is a colossally dumb idea.

[TheMasterpiece]

I made the point a long time ago (in a galaxy far far away..) that "dumbed down" controls aren't necessarily bad controls. Games can be fun on two buttons or 200, it's really down to whether they're intuitive and appropriate for the game at hand. That's why I say it will be how Cryptic design ST:O that will make or break it (and there's no reason to think they'll break it) not whether it caters for consoles or not.



this is very true. games differ on controls and depth. it just depends on the game in question

[JFendley]

I want an NPC bridge crew so my orders are actually followed.

[KO_Gilligan]

Heh, well I'm not. How many of the apparently PC gamers conducted themselves on this forum in the first while is one good example of why (it has become more civil now). In my opinion that is.

You do know that that in fact wasn't the point I was trying to make right/?

Naw I just quoted you to gve my ramblings a small shred of significance. I know it was a reach :p