Good or Bad?...do we have the choice?

[demonic25]

Now your going to say yes...but if i choose the role of a starfleet member do i still get the "Chocie" to maybe end a mission as i see fit?...

I guess in a nutshell i don't like playing the good guy, they bore me...hence why i love the borge and Romulans.

Just HOPE no matter what path you choose in STO they LET YOU be the "bad guy" if you want to be..

[Varrangian]

Now your going to say yes...but if i choose the role of a starfleet member do i still get the "Chocie" to maybe end a mission as i see fit?...

I guess in a nutshell i don't like playing the good guy, they bore me...hence why i love the borge and Romulans.

Just HOPE no matter what path you choose in STO they LET YOU be the "bad guy" if you want to be..

I think there might be some restrictions. Star Trek and Starfleet specifically are about a code. I think of the The Voyager episode Equinox (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Equinox_%28episode%29) (warning spoilers in the link).

[demonic25]

I think there might be some restrictions. Star Trek and Starfleet specifically are about a code. I think of the The Voyager episode Equinox (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Equinox_%28episode%29) (warning spoilers in the link).

Ok i can understand that, but could'nt you in turn choose the path that like that episode where you can become evil in some shape or form?...and kicked out of starfleet?...

I mean some people will say be Klingons, but i don't consider Klingons to be "evil"....

Just hope this game does'nt force you into being the good guy and everything.

[njdss4]

I think you'll have choices you can make on missions, but none of them will ever get you punished with a reduction in rank or anything. You just might not get as many "prestige" or "reputation" points from the mission because you took the easy way out and possibly killed people.

[Dext]

Now your going to say yes...but if i choose the role of a starfleet member do i still get the "Chocie" to maybe end a mission as i see fit?...

I guess in a nutshell i don't like playing the good guy, they bore me...hence why i love the borge and Romulans.

Just HOPE no matter what path you choose in STO they LET YOU be the "bad guy" if you want to be..

good or bad it is all in the eye of the player

[onibocho]

It seems to me that a player should have a large amount of freedom to choose his actions. But equaly should accept the consequences therein.

If you chose to make a "bad" desition then according to the ethics of your faction you are subject to certain cosequences. But also certain advantages as well. Just like any path there are pros and cons.

[onibocho]

What would be interesting if you do missions where you can't resolve them cleanly. That no mater what you do you don't come out smelling like a rose. You have to make the best of a number of not the ehicaly best options to resolve the mission and your conduct is judged by how you make those choices.

Probaly that would require a depth of story line that would take a lot of time to code.

[mezlabor]

Ok i can understand that, but could'nt you in turn choose the path that like that episode where you can become evil in some shape or form?...and kicked out of starfleet?...

I mean some people will say be Klingons, but i don't consider Klingons to be "evil"....

Just hope this game does'nt force you into being the good guy and everything.

If you did then you should lose your starfleet issued ship and crew and hence your character. I hate to say it but the Klingons may be the race for you. Starfleet Captains who go rogue never end well usually if they manage to survive the episode they win themselves a front row seat at their court martial.

[Quarks_bar]

If you did then you should lose your starfleet issued ship and crew and hence your character. I hate to say it but the Klingons may be the race for you. Starfleet Captains who go rogue never end well usually if they manage to survive the episode they win themselves a front row seat at their court martial.


Not to mention that klingons have rules to live by as well an ethic code if you will.

[Iwulff]

Klingons are evil. They love bloodshed, pain, killing and subjugate other races. And although they claim to have 'honor', they still remain killers. Which in my book is equal to evil.

Just my 0.02

[mezlabor]

Not to mention that klingons have rules to live by as well an ethic code if you will.

While true Klingons seem to skirt their rules alot more often then Starfleet captains do and they're society is based off a might might makes right princible. If a Klingon did somethingthat others were angery about he need only kill all of his challengers to make it right. That doesnt work so well with Starfleet.

[Kinjiru]

Klingons are evil. They love bloodshed, pain, killing and subjugate other races. And although they claim to have 'honor', they still remain killers. Which in my book is equal to evil.

Just my 0.02

Klingons are *not* evil. They believe in a different set of ethics, much like the Roman Empire, but that doesn't make them evil.

Just because someone kills to achieve a goal is not evil in and of itself, but the motivation for killing can be evil.

Throughout history, there are thousands of examples where killing takes on a ritualistic bent, for example, look at the Japanese practice of seppuku, the ritualistic taking of one's own life for failure to fulfill one's duty. Does that make the Japanese evil?

Are members of the military evil?

[Q_Who]

I"m sure Klingons will be titles the "Evil" race. Gotta have a villan. Besides, federation vs. federation pvp wouldn't make much sense.

[R4mp4ge]

Klingons are evil. They love bloodshed, pain, killing and subjugate other races. And although they claim to have 'honor', they still remain killers. Which in my book is equal to evil.

Just my 0.02

well, aren't we shallow, you have to remember that to a Klingon there is nothing more honorable than death in battle, according to their world view, killing you in combat is doing you a favor, because otherwise you end up in their version of hell.

I think the best I saw this defined was during the TNG episodes revolving around the Klingon civil war between Durass and Gowron, Klingon warriors who were on different sides of the conflict could be found drinking and telling tales of battle in various establishments on chronos. The fact that they had been killing each other the day before, and would return to doing so the day after mattered little to them, they were doing battle, as klingon's were meant to do, and no matter which side they fought for, they were all comrades in arms, because all were acting according to the Klingon code of honor.

In short, from a Klingon's point of view, you are evil for trying to talk your way out of fights, rather than wade in and prove your worth.

[Kinjiru]

I"m sure Klingons will be titles the "Evil" race. Gotta have a villan. Besides, federation vs. federation pvp wouldn't make much sense.

Untrue, as Klingons are a playable starter race. Are there evil Klingons? Sure, just like there are evil humans. But to say that an entire playable race is evil is a poor setup.

The overall antagonist will probably be the Borg, Species 8472, species like that.

[Kinjiru]

well, aren't we shallow, you have to remember that to a Klingon there is nothing more honorable than death in battle, according to their world view, killing you in combat is doing you a favor, because otherwise you end up in their version of hell.

I think the best I saw this defined was during the TNG episodes revolving around the Klingon civil war between Durass and Gowron, Klingon warriors who were on different sides of the conflict could be found drinking and telling tales of battle in various establishments on chronos. The fact that they had been killing each other the day before, and would return to doing so the day after mattered little to them, they were doing battle, as klingon's were meant to do, and no matter which side they fought for, they were all comrades in arms, because all were acting according to the Klingon code of honor.

In short, from a Klingon's point of view, you are evil for trying to talk your way out of fights, rather than wade in and prove your worth.

Exactly right Jack.

[AbaddonIX]

In star trek there is no truly evil race afaik,each race's actions have reasons behind them,tho they may be seen evil from a race's perspective they might not be in another.

[Varrangian]

Untrue, as Klingons are a playable starter race. Are there evil Klingons? Sure, just like there are evil humans. But to say that an entire playable race is evil is a poor setup.

The overall antagonist will probably be the Borg, Species 8472, species like that.

I have to agree in Star Trek there never seems to be such a clearly defined sense of evil. Clearly not like Star Wars which is more of a morality play. Star Trek while there are some evil individuals there are always exceptions.

[Varrangian]

Ok i can understand that, but could'nt you in turn choose the path that like that episode where you can become evil in some shape or form?...and kicked out of starfleet?...

I mean some people will say be Klingons, but i don't consider Klingons to be "evil"....

Just hope this game does'nt force you into being the good guy and everything.

I understand your point, but how do you work this into a game mechanic. With faction playing a role in your crew choices, ship choices, tech choices. I don't see rogues running around.

[Ereiid]

The occasional Starfleet Admiral or whomever going rogue is far more often than not, an expedient plot device. An exception, not a rule.

Having it available as a game option, frankly, diminishes my immersion. Especially given the trope of many Trek players to gravitate towards Starfleet-gone-bad roleplay.

[Kinjiru]

Having it available as a game option, frankly, diminishes my immersion. Especially given the trope of many Trek players to gravitate towards Starfleet-gone-bad roleplay.

Interesting, I haven't gotten that at all from the posts that I've read.

[Varrangian]

Interesting, I haven't gotten that at all from the posts that I've read.

lol... yeah they won't even let me color my crew uniforms all black :D

[Ereiid]

Interesting, I haven't gotten that at all from the posts that I've read.

I'm talking about my own experiences in Trek RP communities.

I admit I'm anal-retentive about my canonism, but I always sensed far more brooding, sulkiness and angst in those RP characters than really appeared in source material.

[TheMasterpiece]

Now your going to say yes...but if i choose the role of a starfleet member do i still get the "Chocie" to maybe end a mission as i see fit?...

I guess in a nutshell i don't like playing the good guy, they bore me...hence why i love the borge and Romulans.

Just HOPE no matter what path you choose in STO they LET YOU be the "bad guy" if you want to be..



I agree, in most games I like playin the bad guy. KOTOR is a good example of this, i always go as bad as i can. It gives the best awards, youre more powerful, and you have all the cool force powers. In short, wouoldnt you rather have power and be on top in real life rather than be a slave? Thats why I go the bad route in the game.

For STO, I think it depends on the faction. When the expansion with the romulans comes out if I make a romulan character id definately plan on hiding in the shadows, manipulating and being a ruthless cunning captain.

For the federation id rather be a starfleet officer trying to help out the galaxy, defending the weak, and helping my fleet defend everyone.

[Iwulff]

Klingons are *not* evil. They believe in a different set of ethics, much like the Roman Empire, but that doesn't make them evil.

Just because someone kills to achieve a goal is not evil in and of itself, but the motivation for killing can be evil.

Throughout history, there are thousands of examples where killing takes on a ritualistic bent, for example, look at the Japanese practice of seppuku, the ritualistic taking of one's own life for failure to fulfill one's duty. Does that make the Japanese evil?

Are members of the military evil?
The Japanese that did so, were wrong in doing so. Duty is not as important as life, even if they thought it was.

Everyone knows that killing someone is wrong, why do you think that people have so much trouble with it. Ofcourse there are occasions where people don't have problems with this, but they are an exception. That there are people who love this and pull in rituals and believe to support this, doesn't make it any good. If I had the possibility to kill a murderer who is or will be responsible for the killing of thousands or millions, then I wouldn't do it. The end doesn't justify the means. And I find that the people who try to deny this, are hypocrites, because they give arguments that are bend in their way of thinking. Because why you do something is more important then what happens because of it. If your intend is to help others, but someone dies of it or gets hurt, then ofcourse it isn't fun. But you didn't do it on purpose, you wanted to help them. You must learn from it and go on.

Now about the people of the military, in short, yes ofcourse. If you go to war and start shooting people, then you can expect to be killed. Do you know how traumatic people return from war? Sometimes broken, because they have seen and done horrors that most people, including me, can scarcely understand. It is criminal of the governments to send in these young brainwashed people, into war to face these things. And did you know that there are quit a few of these soldiers with a criminal past?

In short, from a Klingon's point of view, you are evil for trying to talk your way out of fights, rather than wade in and prove your worth.They resemble the humans who love fights and are like warriors. It is a weakness that you are not able to restrain yourself and only want to fight, get drunk and kill. In reality people like that are dishonorable, they are unable to control themselves.


Now you may think I am arrogant in thinking so. But for me it is more important, the way you lived your life in a positive way towards all others, then to follow the stream and the morality and ways of thinking of that stream.

agree, in most games I like playin the bad guy. KOTOR is a good example of this, i always go as bad as i can. It gives the best awards, youre more powerful, and you have all the cool force powers. In short, wouoldnt you rather have power and be on top in real life rather than be a slave? Thats why I go the bad route in the game. Lol, I feel bad when I do evil things in games.

[mendal]

In ST everyone has their hands dirty, even feds. I belive Sisko pointed out that there is no black or white but shades of grey. I sometimes go crazy in games just for the fun of it and go trying every crazy thing I can come up with. I think that if you play for romulans (which are just pragmatic and not evil IMHO) you should be a good romulan or if for Klingons than an honorable one. Helping other players and being civil and curdious will be the main concept of goodness. As for prime directive or other rules of cultures, well it will depend on culture however being violent will only get so far especially in ST and hopefully in STO. So go ahead have a good time playing whatever evil race you want but in the end it is all about how many friends you got whether evil or good.

[demonic25]

Good or bad Cryptic MUST understand that people DO like to play the bad guy and not always do the morally right things in games and life.

I don't want to be FORCED into playing the game in 1 way or the other....it should be your choice if you decide to become "bad" or "Evil" and i'd love for a dev reply to this thread.

maybe just a quick "Yes you have the choice to do things diffrently" or something to that effect.

Of course understanding that they're very busy!.

[SelorKiith]

What would you do If you are a Starfleet Captain and you're going horribly bad to just be a bad guy...
As someone says here, you would win a seat at the first row of your court martial... and when you'll be kicked out of Starfleet what would you do? You will have no ship, no crew, nothing...

Maybe at some point Cryptic will add the Terran Empire as a faction of somehow... THERE you can be evil and bad... but not at regular Starfleet and Federation

[ob1klone]

Ok i can understand that, but could'nt you in turn choose the path that like that episode where you can become evil in some shape or form?...and kicked out of starfleet?...

I mean some people will say be Klingons, but i don't consider Klingons to be "evil"....

Just hope this game does'nt force you into being the good guy and everything.


The heart of good and bad is mostly perspective, when you consider someone's morals. Someone that has no problem killing to acheive their ends could be seen as evil, but from who's point of view. Circumstance generally determains good or evil. I would say that you would most likely want to play a Klingon in this game, because they will have the abillity to act far less moral than Star Fleet officers.

[demonic25]

The heart of good and bad is mostly perspective, when you consider someone's morals. Someone that has no problem killing to acheive their ends could be seen as evil, but from who's point of view. Circumstance generally determains good or evil. I would say that you would most likely want to play a Klingon in this game, because they will have the abillity to act far less moral than Star Fleet officers.

Guess i'll start off with the Klingons then :) ... then mayeb in the future the Romulons and Borg might be playable :))

[mezlabor]

Good or bad Cryptic MUST understand that people DO like to play the bad guy and not always do the morally right things in games and life.

I don't want to be FORCED into playing the game in 1 way or the other....it should be your choice if you decide to become "bad" or "Evil" and i'd love for a dev reply to this thread.

maybe just a quick "Yes you have the choice to do things diffrently" or something to that effect.

Of course understanding that they're very busy!.
I can understand your position on choice. The question becomes consequences. Starfleet is an exceedingly moral organization. Starfleet officers are expected to behave in certain ways. Even the antics of Kirk and co wouldnt be tolerated in today's starfleet (as referenced by Janeway in a voyager episode) Allowing players to directly contradict Starfleet regulation with no consequence is not something I think they should allow.

The IKE however is a totally different beast. Rogue captains are probably not all that uncommon among the Klingons and weve seen plenty of examples of Klingon houses doing shady underhanded things. The House of Duras comes to mind.

But I see in your above post you see this already :D

[Crux]

The only thing I can think of that comes close to a group that makes all the opposite decisions of the Federation would be the Terran Empire from "Mirror, Mirror". Now if they made them accessible via some sort of temporal distortion I think these folks who what to go the alternate route would have an option.

[mezlabor]

The only thing I can think of that comes close to a group that makes all the opposite decisions of the Federation would be the Terran Empire from "Mirror, Mirror". Now if they made them accessible via some sort of temporal distortion I think these folks who what to go the alternate route would have an option.

Its a good idea but I dont know how difficult creating the entire alternate mirror universe as a fully realized starfleet mock up would be. The devs did say wed have mirror universe missions so who knows

[Reinkaos]

I think you'll have choices you can make on missions, but none of them will ever get you punished with a reduction in rank or anything. You just might not get as many "prestige" or "reputation" points from the mission because you took the easy way out and possibly killed people.

I hope so, moral dilemmas and such too, but I also hope that if you break Starfleet's code seriously enough that you run the risk of getting busted down a rank for it - but not of course without its possible rewards, as something that serious should be a knife edge, like Picard disobeying order to patrol the neutral zone, and instead going to intercept the Borg, which led to him saving the day. Things like that :D

[Aogos]

Isn't it like buying CoH and saying I don't want to be a hero? (yeah i know theres CoV and the two are one pack now, but you get my point)

The interviews have already shown the dev's are not interested in independent nations, which is what you'd become if you were kicked from the Federation/Empire for being 'evil.' I would expect theres some limited choice how you end missions something like the end justifies the means scenario but there won't be a miriad of choices available, expressing every choice of human psyche. The ST element of the game would fall apart day one, if you begin to offer any choice, other than what you would expect an ST officer to do.

[spokechecker5000]

Interesting Idea but wouldn't "bad" starfleet officers be hunted down by other starfleet officers? Just look at the relationship between Cmdr. Eddington and Capt. Benjamin Sisko. He hunted that guy down and wanted him so bad that Sisko was willing to destroy the atmosphere of a planet to convince him to give up and turn himself in. I know it was a part of a ploy but that was hard core.

[Crux]

Damn, I forgot about that. The Sisko was badass!

[Reinkaos]

[QUOTE=Crux;148302]Damn, I forgot about that. ThSo badass he basically ascended :cool:

[Kipper]

Ok i can understand that, but could'nt you in turn choose the path that like that episode where you can become evil in some shape or form?...and kicked out of starfleet?...

I mean some people will say be Klingons, but i don't consider Klingons to be "evil"....

Just hope this game does'nt force you into being the good guy and everything.

If you get kicked out of Starfleet you'll be removed from your ship as well, but it's possible you can go renegade. There may some kind of "crew loyalty" stat that dictates whether or not they follow your orders and rebel against the Federation or mutiny you and turn you over the the authorities, I think that would be cool.

Like, you could go on the run and your character's name, ship and last known location would be made available at starbases, and there's some kind of reward for capturing/destroying that character.

How cool would that be?

[TheMasterpiece]

Interesting Idea but wouldn't "bad" starfleet officers be hunted down by other starfleet officers? Just look at the relationship between Cmdr. Eddington and Capt. Benjamin Sisko. He hunted that guy down and wanted him so bad that Sisko was willing to destroy the atmosphere of a planet to convince him to give up and turn himself in. I know it was a part of a ploy but that was hard core.




That would make him worse than eddington. Perhaps sisko should be hunted.

[naynayz]

Now your going to say yes...but if i choose the role of a starfleet member do i still get the "Chocie" to maybe end a mission as i see fit?...

I guess in a nutshell i don't like playing the good guy, they bore me...hence why i love the borge and Romulans.

Just HOPE no matter what path you choose in STO they LET YOU be the "bad guy" if you want to be..

There will always be mean captains and bad captains and good captains and nice captains. But I hope they let us decide some of the mission outcomes.

[Acidrain]

I would like the choice of being good or bad, certain paths you take make you bad or good. I don't think choosing to be a Klingon is bad, i don't consider them to be bad as they are a warrior cast society.

[ob1klone]

I would like the choice of being good or bad, certain paths you take make you bad or good. I don't think choosing to be a Klingon is bad, i don't consider them to be bad as they are a warrior cast society.


I agree with you here. But I think we are not going to have a choice at the begining. With only these two factions, I would say the closest thing you are going get to is a shade of gray. Untill cryptic decides to put in a faction that is bad, people are going to have to settle for morally ambiguous.

[conllo]

Ok i can understand that, but could'nt you in turn choose the path that like that episode where you can become evil in some shape or form?...and kicked out of starfleet?...

I mean some people will say be Klingons, but i don't consider Klingons to be "evil"....

Just hope this game does'nt force you into being the good guy and everything.


I think that is an excellent Idea, I think if I am not misunderstanding you, that you are still able to complete your mission, or goal but VIA a different route.

Say like your in star fleet and you were given the task of rescuing prisoners from a planet, and your mission was solely a Diplomatic mission and you have strict instructions not to attack any of the controlling members of that planet period, but the goal was to rescue them and the reward would be enough points (AN EXAMPLE ONLY) to acquire the next level ship in game, but you go and raise havoc on that planet, you kill 20 or 30 beings in the process and rescue the prisoners, your still completed the goal of returning those prisoners, but you will now have to face the consequences of your actions.

BTW you still also unlocked the ability to now purchase your new ship.

If this is were your going I LOVE AI missions that interact with your actions not a single path story line that is a cookie cutter for every single player and would love to see that in STO lol you got my VOTE!