Klingons and the Feds - What Happened?

[Polaron]

Cast your minds back a few years, to the end of Deep Space Nine. The Federation and the Klingon Empire had just helped each other send the Dominion packing after years of total warfare. The Romulans helped too, of course, but they aren't germane to this discussion.

Anyway. The Klingons and Feds had become quite close allies and friends, and it looked like the course was set for the Klingon Empire to join the Federation someday.

Fast forward to Star Trek Online. Relations have deteriorated over the past thirty years to the point that pretty much open war seems to be taking place (only way to rationalize PvP between the two groups, I think). What happened? What took place to cause these two formerly staunch allies to start shooting at each other again?

Did the House of Duras finally manage to take over? Are the Romulans up to their old "Cause everyone to hate everyone else" tricks and, if so, would we be able to expose them and maybe cause a reconciliation (causing Fed/Klingon PvP to end but them vs Romulans to begin when Romulans get added)?

Wild Mass Guess away!

[njdss4]

Polaron, your astute description of how the Federation and Klingon Empire were on the best of terms after the Dominion War is exactly what confuses me about Cryptic's STO. How could things deteriorate when Martok was Chancellor AND Worf was the Federation Ambassador to Kronos?

Any explanation Cryptic offers will not be enough in my eyes. The Star Trek writers and creators were pushing towards a complete merging of the Klingon Empire and the Federation, but since Cryptic needed to put PvP into this game they decided to throw all of that out the window. It's a cop-out and extremely disappointing. Any other species outside of the Federation would have made more sense than the Klingons. It's ridiculous and I don't like it.

[KidBang]

It's been 30 years, who's to say what's happened in that time. Plus, let's face it, the Klingons are warlike expansionists. They might have gone back to traditional ways.

[ibby1kanobi]

It goes totally against the end story in DS9, but let's see what they come up with. I really didn't like the Fed V Klingon thing at all. It makes little sense. They are going to have to come up with something drastic to change the relationships. We'll see.

[BreachAndClear]

Governments change, revolutions happen. Just because everything was good towards the end of the events in DS9, doesn't mean that an individual with an anti-Federation ideology didn't rise to prominence in the Klingon government in those 30 years.

[Roka]

It started because of the great twinkie debate. The Federation wouldnt share :D

[vp21ct]

Polaron, your astute description of how the Federation and Klingon Empire were on the best of terms after the Dominion War is exactly what confuses me about Cryptic's STO. How could things deteriorate when Martok was Chancellor AND Worf was the Federation Ambassador to Kronos?

Any explanation Cryptic offers will not be enough in my eyes. The Star Trek writers and creators were pushing towards a complete merging of the Klingon Empire and the Federation, but since Cryptic needed to put PvP into this game they decided to throw all of that out the window. It's a cop-out and extremely disappointing. Any other species outside of the Federation would have made more sense than the Klingons. It's ridiculous and I don't like it.

You should read the "The state of the Alpha and Beta quadrants- a speculation (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=6369)", thread, its really good.

[KidBang]

Yeah, I mean look at how drastically the world's view of the US has just the last few years. And we aren't from a empire who favors DEATH FIRST.

[IanD967]

How could things deteriorate when Martok was Chancellor AND Worf was the Federation Ambassador to Kronos?.

Martok and Worf both assassinated perhaps? and since no-one was around to claim the throne (so to speak) the house of Duras could of risen back up and claimed it either that OR the Duras house has managed to get a civil war started and half the empire is at war with the Federation while the other half are still at peace

[poganwarrior]

Now that I think about it... Wait a moment! How did it get all pear shaped? We can be positive about this and think..."If they do pull off a valid reason then oh my, this game has that much more flavour" or... "I feel cheated, they can't change what the shows wrote we have to stay with the more logical course!"

Personally.... KAPLAAGH! The federation is weak! :D

[Typheron]

I still think it was the Tribbles...

[vp21ct]

I still think it was the Tribbles...

It had to have been :D

[Polaron]

My personal theory is that there was some sort of coup that took Worf and Martok out of the picture, coupled with a new generation of Klingon warriors lusting for honor and glory above all else.

That said, though, you'd think the old guard would have had an issue with attacking their former allies (it's dishonorable!). Maybe we'll see some sort of Klingon Civil War break out (again)?

[KirksOtherSon]

Emmert mentioned that Cryptic will be posting a timeline, filling in the major historical points between the end of Star Trek: Nemesis and the start of Star Trek Online, so all will be revealed (eventually).

If I had to guess, I'd expect it was just a garden-variety shift in political fortunes. Moderate Klingon factions died off (Klingons must have a prodigous death rate, yes?), and the less-tolerant Klingon factions became increasingly prevalent and powerful.

I could draw a parallel to current politics here, but many would'nt see the humor, I'm sure. ;)

Anyway, I expect there was some sort of incident or incidents which both parties point to in 2409 as "the reason things changed" -- but you know how politics go ... it's people who decide whether something leads to war or not. I suspect it was merely a building change in the political weather which used a particular event as its excuse to manifest.

When you're dealing with a culture like the Klingons, which expressly ties personal and societal honor to vengeance and combat, it's probably a fast slide into war if the Klingon powers-that-be want it so.

Last thing -- I dunno if you saw the episode of "Enterprise" where Archer was a captive of the Klingons, but there was a nice bit of business where his elderly Klingon cellmate explains that Klingon society was once more diverse, but that the warrior caste gained such influence over time, that other castes (like the science caste) began to be seen as lesser, and were eventually marginalized.

KOS

[njdss4]

You should read the "The state of the Alpha and Beta quadrants- a speculation (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=6369)", thread, its really good.

Thanks for the link! It is indeed a very good read, and I loved most of it, but I still don't like the explanation given the for the Klingons. Martok would have had a successor lined up that would continue his efforts to keep the alliance going. The successor would have Worf's help along with all the Houses the allied themselves with the house of Martok after the Dominion War. I just don't see how things could have deteriorated in just 30 years. MARTOK SHOULDN'T EVEN BE DEAD YET!

If we were talking about 80 years, then I could see it happening, but 30? No way.

[KidBang]

I don't think anyone believes Martok died of old age ;) He's a Klingon after all.

[KirksOtherSon]

I don't think anyone believes Martok died of old age ;) He's a Klingon after all.

Exactly right. Honored Klingon warriors probably don't die in bed of natural causes.

Of course, in the Klingon Empire, getting stabbed to death is probably considered "natural causes" ...

KOS

[Polaron]

I don't think anyone believes Martok died of old age ;) He's a Klingon after all.

I'm hoping he's not dead at all..He's hiding with Worf, hoping to bring honor back to the Klingon Empire!

[ReynoldsXD]

Actualy its quite easy:


The Federation Klingon alliance has always been more an alliance of convenience than friendship.
TNG made this VERY clear in the way the Klingons often reacted to the Federation. The Alliance was needed to keep the romulans in check on a strategic layer.
The Empire was boxed in between Fed and klingon space after all.


How quickly the mood can change was easily depicted in DS9 where the Klingons went from "we take ur stuff!" to "we wanna be allies again" in a heartbeat, simply because the need was there.
After a fullblown war where the empire basicly didnt make much in terms of territorial gains, with a new generation lusting for more its safe to assume that the klingon empire wouldnt get back to rest easily.

After nemesis it stands to reason that the Romulan/Federation relationship lightened up somewhat, with all the undergroundmovemeent with spock in the picture the whole thought isnt so far off.
Maybee that also was the reason the romulan military supportet shinzon, to get the empire back on track, away from a more peaceful solution.
Back to klingons.
Klingons dislike Romulans and klingons dislike having no war.
Its possible that martok slowly lost support of the high council, it doesnt even have to be a violent way. he might just be shoved aside bit by bit.

[r2data]

Polaron, your astute description of how the Federation and Klingon Empire were on the best of terms after the Dominion War is exactly what confuses me about Cryptic's STO. How could things deteriorate when Martok was Chancellor AND Worf was the Federation Ambassador to Kronos?


If they follow the books like they said, Worf would've rejoined the Enterprise crew as the new first officer and Alexander took over the Ambassadorship.

As for Martok, he could've been deposed. It happens often enough.

[vp21ct]

If they follow the books like they said, Worf would've rejoined the Enterprise crew as the new first officer and Alexander took over the Ambassadorship.

As for Martok, he could've been deposed. It happens often enough.

are we forgeting that there is no such thing as "deposed" in the klingon culture, if someone thinks they can do a better job than you they duel you, and if they win they decide if you live or die, and i doubt that the guy who leads the Empire against the feds would let Martok live.

[Polaron]

If they follow the books like they said, Worf would've rejoined the Enterprise crew as the new first officer and Alexander took over the Ambassadorship.

As for Martok, he could've been deposed. It happens often enough.

I got the impression that the books were more guidelines than rules. The movies and TV shows are canon, the books are inspiration.

[r2data]

are we forgeting that there is no such thing as "deposed" in the klingon culture, if someone thinks they can do a better job than you they duel you, and if they win they decide if you live or die, and i doubt that the guy who leads the Empire against the feds would let Martok live.

Deposed.... dead.... tomayto... tomato...

[r2data]

I got the impression that the books were more guidelines than rules. The movies and TV shows are canon, the books are inspiration.

Even then, as guidelines, it provides somewhat of a direction and a better estimate than wild speculation.

[vp21ct]

Deposed.... dead.... tomayto... tomato...

wow thats just lol :D

[R4mp4ge]

well if your going to bring the alliance at the end of DS9 up you should look at the politiical climate leading up to it.

At the end of ST: 6 "the undiscovered country" the klingon's had suffered a natural catasrophe and made a truce with the federation, by the time of TNG that truce was still in effect, but shaky, despight multiple incedents of the federation aiding the klingon's against the romulons. By the end of TNG, the klingon empire was on good terms with the federation, it's current chancelor having been aided by Worf and Picard who forced the romulons to end their support of his enemies, the Duras.

By the start of DS9 the klingons and the federation were effectively allied and that alliance was streangthened by the appearence of the dominion threat. This alliance was effectively nullified when the federation refused to aid the Klingon invasion of cardasia, though neither side wished to go to war with the other, comunication and cooperation were cut short.

The Klingon Federation alliance was renewed when the cardasian's called in the dominion and both sides were forced to cooperate or be destroyed.

so even during the TNG era the feds and the Klingons were on the edge of war half the time, is it really such a strech to assume that without a massive external threat these two powers, holding almost diametrically opposed mindsets, wouldn't once again come into conflict?

[ReynoldsXD]

This alliance was effectively nullified when the federation refused to aid the Klingon invasion of cardasia, though neither side wished to go to war with the other, comunication and cooperation were cut short.



Erm... dude.. they did went to war....

[arakkis]

After nemesis it stands to reason that the Romulan/Federation relationship lightened up somewhat, with all the undergroundmovemeent with spock in the picture the whole thought isnt so far off.
Maybee that also was the reason the romulan military supportet shinzon, to get the empire back on track, away from a more peaceful solution.
Back to klingons.
Klingons dislike Romulans and klingons dislike having no war.
Its possible that martok slowly lost support of the high council, it doesnt even have to be a violent way. he might just be shoved aside bit by bit.

This alliance was effectively nullified when the federation refused to aid the Klingon invasion of cardasia, though neither side wished to go to war with the other, comunication and cooperation were cut short.

The Klingon Federation alliance was renewed when the cardasian's called in the dominion and both sides were forced to cooperate or be destroyed.

Perhaps the Klingons feel that if the Federation hadn't held them back, they could have ended the Dominion war right there.

Now with the Romulan Empire in chaos after the death of the senate and Shinzon, the Klingons see it as their opportunity to strike their hated enemies, and end the constant cowardly raids across their borders. However, the Federation decides that this is a chance to make peace with the Romulans, and send ships to stop the Klingons from invading Romulan space. It escalates to the point of having a Klingon invasion force and a Federation defensive fleet nose to nose. A young Klingon captain decides that he will gain glory for himself and the empire if he throws off the shackles of peace the Federation has imposed upon the empire, and fires the first shots in the new war.

Meanwhile the Romulans draw farther back into their space to gather themselves to strike at a weakened Federation and Klingon Empire...

[Talamakara]

What has to be said is, there would be only 1 member of the duras family capable of actually putting something together. Because in total there were 5 members of that family. One killed by Worf, one saved by Worf, Lursa and Betor and their son.(saying their as i don't remeber which one gave birth off hand)

At the end of ST: Generations lursa and betor are dead, leaving only their son and the one that worf spared. If the one worf spared was still alive he would be an old man, and lursa and betor's son would be the right age to be ready to take over a throne. And if he's still alive, the one warf saved would more than likely be pushing him to it.

But of course this doesn't interject any thoughts of the one worf saved having kids or anything along those lines, I'm just using the facts i have on hand.

[MichalM.Mac]

I thing that for game this point is irelevant because we can't taky it seriously as a part of Star Trek history. It's more like star trek fiction :-)

[ParkerHayden]

I don't like that the Federation and Klingons are enemies again either, but if you remember in Way of the Warrior (I think) Worf said that other Klingons were saying that the empire was becoming weak and "had been at peace for too long." Perhaps a new emperor is in place and had those feelings.

[Mailman653]

Well, 30 years after Nemisis....

I think the Romulans might of had a civil war considering Shinzon wipped out the senate and the praetor.

The Cardassian Union is still trying to rebuild after the Dominion Wars, and really in no position to wage a war of offense or defense.

The Federation is weak but slowly rebuiilding and as for the Klingons, I think they are still weak but rebuilt most of their fleets much faster than the Federation has.

[Gen00b]

The Klingons are one of the most recognizable and best known Star Trek villains. Cryptic probably first decided to use the Klingons as the enemy of the Federation before thinking how it would fit in the lore. Despite that I have a feeling it won't be as black and white as many people might think. Perpetual played with the idea of having 'fringe factions' within the Federation, and it wouldn't surprise me if this is one of the ideas Cryptic will copy for their STO.

So basically you can have the 'evil' Klingon High Command but storyline decisions could set you on the path of the more moderate Klingons (like those who think an alliance with the Klingons might be a good idea).

[archangel118]

Okay, if we consider ALL the TV series to be canon (which I know a lot of Trek fans don't, in particular with Enterprise) then don't you guys remember that one Enterprise episode, dealing with the Xindi and the sphere builders, where Archer is transported to the 25th century Enterprise-J, they state that at that point the Klingons had officially joined the United Federation of Planets as a member, and are no longer their own independent empire anymore and are fighting side by side against the Sphere builders. So, is the idea that after those 30 years, they go to war, and then after this little spat, they become even stronger allies and the Klingons join the UFP?

Thats where it doesn't make sense to me, because the idea was that the Klingons were closer to the Federation than ever at the end of Nemesis. I personally liked the way that Perpetual had gone, storyline wise, where they had it as you could play as a Klingon captain on a fed starship, the Borg were no longer a major threat due to the end of Voyager, and the new threat was coming from the Beta Quadrant, not the Alpha or Delta quadrant. I realize that Cryptic probably did it because they needed to set up some for of PVP, but I wish they had done a better job in following the way things had been going as far as relations. I think the Romulans would have been a better PVP enemy, simply because even with the end of Nemesis who knows what those *******s would do, they always up to no good.

[Polaron]

If you'll recall, though, that future never actually ended up happening, because the Sphere Builders were completely and comprehensively beaten instead of the Expanse..expanding..into Federation space.

I think, anyway.

[archangel118]

No, they were showing the future IF the Xindi are stopped, as the Xindi then join the Federation later on and help fight the Sphere builders. He was showing him the future as it was now with the Xindi stopped, and telling Archer that was why he had to stop them in a preferably diplomatic matter, because it inhibits the Sphere Builders plans, and thats why it takes until the 25th century for the Sphere builders to actively threaten the Alpha quadrant again.

[Gil]

In the future when admiral Janeway comes from the UFP and the KE are almost at war exactly like in STO.

[archangel118]

No, they were showing the future IF the Xindi are stopped, as the Xindi then join the Federation later on and help fight the Sphere builders. He was showing him the future as it was now with the Xindi stopped, and telling Archer that was why he had to stop them in a preferably diplomatic matter, because it inhibits the Sphere Builders plans, and thats why it takes until the 25th century for the Sphere builders to actively threaten the Alpha quadrant again.

I just looked it up, and the alternate future where the Xindi aren't stopped has Earth destroyed and humans as a bunch of nomads, with no home planet and a few survivors, and the Xindi hunting them. The episode with the Enterprise-J is Azati Prime, and I guess it was in the 26th century, which does leave a lot of time for reconciliation between the Feds and Klingons. I just don't like the Klingons being the enemy mostly because for like 200 years they've been allies, to turn that on its head in 30 years just seems to go against everything the writers had been pushing for, which I think was the eventual joining of the Empire with the UFP. I wait to see what they put forth in the storyline, but there isn't a whole lot that could convince me of this sudden reversal in relations. Of course, that won't stop me from playing the game :p

[archangel118]

In the future when admiral Janeway comes from the UFP and the KE are almost at war exactly like in STO.

That wasn't the KE, that was only a house within the KE, and it was obvious that it was a less than honorable house. They don't mention anywhere in that episode that relations between them are that bad, and besides, that future wouldn't happen because that was a timeline where Janeway took a long long time to get back from the Delta quadrant, which was changed in Endgame, so thats not a reliable indicator of the future.

[Lopine]

Well i think the Klingon got cranky when the Romulan joined the Federation in the end of Star Trek Nemesis. And i dont know exactly what happened. I gues we have to wate for thoz backrund storys thay promised us till the launch day. Having the Klingon as an enamy poses some interesting story and game play if you ask me. But the cloaking system have a big setback. No shilds online while cloak is online. If a fed ship have a good crew and good tech. Thay can spot a cloaked klingon ship and get the drop on them befor thay have a chanse to turn off cloak and turn on weapons and shild. Should take a few seconds to do that but still. The Klingons are still cool but i prefer the Romulans my self.

[Q_Who]

Lets face it, its an easy move for the developers. Good vs. Evil. Quick and easy.

[archangel118]

And thats, unfortunately, why I think they did it, but they didn't really think about it before they announced it and now they realized they have to make a storyline that goes from almost a Klingon membership with the UFP to full blown war. I dislike that they just decided to use the Klingons so they could have PVP, I wish they had thought about it more. I was looking for a new enemy, hell the Hirojens would have been good, the Klingons have been done before in many past games. I guess I'll wait and see what happens.

[fritos1]

Maybe we should all watch Star Trek:Nemesis which starts airing on AMC on august 28th seeings this will be 30 years after that which i'm sure things can change in 30 years.

[Angelphoenix12]

If i remeber correctily, the last battle on ds9. the prime chanceller said "that the battle was the feds. But they wont forget or forgive." to sisco.
i think that was the start of things turning badliy for the allience.

[Chronotope]

I think the most likely cause is that the Federation refused to share the technology Janeway brought back from the future. Either they didn't want to share this new tech with the Klingons because they wanted it for themselves (something very possible considering some of the Federation's politicians we've seen lately) or because they were afraid that distributing the technology would contaminate the timeline.

The Klingons likely took serious disagreement to this, accusing the Federation of trying to keep the Empire on a technologically or political lower level (a not uncommon argument from the Klingons) and threatened the Federation with war if they didn't give up the tech.

I'd bet the Federation then made transwarp public, in order to try and keep the Klingons happy. However, of course, what the Klingons wanted was the combat-centric tech. In that situation, I could easily see the pre-existing allies of the Federation turn on them, including Worf.

[Slikmeister]

Well it is said that following the Domion Wars all factions in the Alpha Quadrent were extremely weakend, and the Federation was the quickest to recover for various reasons. I heard of stories being thrown aroudn such as the Klingon empire took the brunt of casualties when the Breen entered the war that the Empire was begining to fall apart and a new era of Klingon pride erupted in reclaiming its lost power and dignity.
I'm glad to hear the setting is in the 25th Century, so wonder if this will tie in with the new series?

[Boone]

Perhaps someone has altered history, another Wells class ship interfering with the natural course of time. In such an event it could have altered history sufficiently to cause such a fracture. A Rogue Captain with a grudge against the Klingons like Kirk once had for the death of his son. He decides that it would be better if there were no Klingons and thus sets into motion events that allow such to happen.

The Davros have never really be known for honor. So this captain travels back in time and chooses to aid the Davros. He gives them technology aid. This technology allows the younger Davros to challenge Martok and kill him taking control of the Empire. He then banishes Worf and Alexander from the Empire. For the disgrace his family has suffered at the hands of the Federation he orders a full scale build up. The Federation notices and begins its on preparations.

Admiral Picard attempts to negotiate a treaty. He and the Enterprise E are destroyed by the new Klingon High Chancilor. Their ship towed back to Qu'nos to put on display for all the empire to see that the mighty enterprise is destroyed. Though the crew attempts to escape through escape pods the Klingon Empire ships target and destroy them all. The Enterprise Incident creates a fervor within the Federation. The Federation declares war. (The Enterprise C died to make the peace hold, the Enterprise E dies to break it).

The Enterprise F is commissioned as an Enterprise Class. A variation of the two F's we've seen before from the future going along the lines of the Defiant to the 10th power. This becomes one of the main battleships of the Federation. It also becomes a rallying point to the Federation in this time of war. Captain William T. Riker becomes captain of the Enterprise F, with Commander Data as his First Officer. (Ship probably enters service 10 years after Picard's death).

The Romulans observe in their cloaked ships at the sudden change in their neighbors. They choose for the moment due to their own internal problems to sit out the problem. It gives them time to rebuild. They assume a neutral approach, a wait and lets see what happens. They have also been watching the Breen, the Breen once sought to take the Romulan Star Empire, and that must not be.

The Cardassian Union is in no shape to fight itself. They spend most of the 30 years trying to rebuild Cardassia. The Federation does attempt several humanitarian efforts. Cardassia is now closer to joining the Federation. Technology exchanges between the two enable both to benefit.

The Gorn Hegemony has never especially liked the Klingon Empire. They finally join the Federation in full force providing the necessary manpower and ships in the early stages of the war as the Federation rebuilds its depleted forces. (Perhaps Janeway or Troi are instrumental in gaining their support).

The Ferengi Alliance, war is good for profit. They of course conduct business with both sides, sometimes acting as spies of convenience. They traffic various contraband through the areas and provide hard to get items. They avoid fighting, as if your dead you can't spend it.

Breen Confederacy. Raids into Cardassian space are common. The Federation has assisted where it can as Dukat has rebuilt his military forces. They also raid into Romulan space but find it difficult with Romulan advancements.

The question is can time be repaired this time.....or by such an act did the Wells Class disappear by altering the past to much.

[chrisdanger]

If I may bring us back to RL for a few moments. All the concepts/Ideas concerning this rift are very well thought out, Good job ladies and gentleman! Now, back to theorizing....

[MajorD]

Even then, as guidelines, it provides somewhat of a direction and a better estimate than wild speculation.
The books are no more or less wild speculation than what is appearing in this thread. The only difference is that those people got their speculation published.
well if your going to bring the alliance at the end of DS9 up you should look at the politiical climate leading up to it.

At the end of ST: 6 "the undiscovered country" the klingon's had suffered a natural catasrophe and made a truce with the federation, by the time of TNG that truce was still in effect, but shaky, despight multiple incedents of the federation aiding the klingon's against the romulons. By the end of TNG, the klingon empire was on good terms with the federation, it's current chancelor having been aided by Worf and Picard who forced the romulons to end their support of his enemies, the Duras.

By the start of DS9 the klingons and the federation were effectively allied and that alliance was streangthened by the appearence of the dominion threat. This alliance was effectively nullified when the federation refused to aid the Klingon invasion of cardasia, though neither side wished to go to war with the other, comunication and cooperation were cut short.

The Klingon Federation alliance was renewed when the cardasian's called in the dominion and both sides were forced to cooperate or be destroyed.

so even during the TNG era the feds and the Klingons were on the edge of war half the time, is it really such a strech to assume that without a massive external threat these two powers, holding almost diametrically opposed mindsets, wouldn't once again come into conflict?
You beat me to it. The inherent shakiness of Klingon-Federation alliances, thanks to apposing motivations and desires, means those alliances can fail at any time. They truly are agreements of convince and nothing more.

Even the period of peace from ST:6 to TNG, balanced on a razors edge of of just one ship taking just the right action to bring respect to Federation in Klingon eyes, and avert a war between the two, a few decades later, in "Yesterday's Enterprise".

However, as time progressed, thanks to events such as the above, the chance of collapse of alliance moved away from directly resulting in war between the Klingons and Federation, thanks to stronger mutual respect, but could still easily lead to it. In Kirk's era, the Klingons would have gotten themselves into a war with the Federation if they could find the excuse, and they would have loved the chance. Apposed to that is the sentiment in DS9 by, I believe both, Martok and Gowron, that they didn't want a war with the Federation at all, but that events had reached a point where they had to fight the Federation. Of course, as is the nature of the Klingons, you know they enjoyed the battles, even though it wasn't their preferred enemy.

With the end of the Dominion War, there would probably be greater respect by Klingons for humans, and probably greater desire by the Federation to do what is necessary to keep the Klingons as allies. Even so, with a 30 year period, that could easily be completely peaceful, it's easy to imagine the Klingons chafing for an enemy, and willing to jump on excuses for fighting, just as could have happened between Kirk's and Picard's eras.

I think the Romulans would have been a better PVP enemy, simply because even with the end of Nemesis who knows what those *******s would do, they always up to no good.
The Romulans can go a few ways. For one thing, they've just lost their entire governing body, in one move. Apparently the senate was reconvened after Shinzon was defeated, so we know their government is robust, however, Shinzon made his move with the support of the Romulan fleet against the government. That's going to throw the the Romulans into chaos for years, probably with purges of the military and the like. The Federation sent Riker to help them out.

Perhaps sending Riker could lead to stronger relations with the Federatoin, and as we saw throughout TNG, there were movements to open up the Romulan Star Empire, individuals inside it didn't like the paranoia pointing at the Federation.

More later.

[Jodocus]

Let's keep in mind that if it takes 10 years to build a shaky peace into an alliance, an alliance can easily be shattered in 30 years time.

THEORY 1: THE IMPOSTER

An imposter has for decades worked to gain a seat in the high council. Having taken the place of a son or important figure to Martok he has stood in the shadows of a growing empire and as many ambitious men or women can do struggle has lead to a great leader falling and a twisted new leader changing the empire altogether. Now the klingons are lead with propaganda and misbelieves and war is again at the borders of federation and klingon space. Perhaps this imposter is rogue shapeshifter, or a romulan operative.

THEORY 2: THE MISUNDERSTANDING

Misunderstandings have lead to war. Border disputes, failing to assist eachother at times of need (the federation is not prone to entering a war together with, or assisting the klingons due to morals and directives) and disagreements over galactic issues may have lead to struggle between the two great factions. Perhaps the federation because of increasing threats became alot more militant and has become less tolerant and welcoming to the fastly different klingon empire.

THEORY 3: CLOAK AND DAGGER

Perpetual had planned a mysterious and powerful race from the outer edge of the beta quadrant to invade the galaxy. They may have decided that the alliance of klingons and the federation is too strong to oppose. Perhaps together being one of the greatest powers in the entire galaxy many enemies would work towards breaking this alliance appart. If two great factions fight and end up severely drained and weakened, a third and many more can shift the powers in the galaxy. Sure the romulans, cardassians or the dominion, maybe even the borg could be responsible instead.

THEORY 4: THE ORGANIANS

The organians always have had strange but true reasons to stick their translucant fingers into the game of politics. Having often been a favourite plotline in the Starfleet Command series, the Organians may be behind this two-sided conquest once again.

[Golic]

The whole Klingon VS Federation is very disappointing.
I agree it is a complete cop out on Cryptic's part and they are just taking the easy path.
A very important part of Star Trek is that Earth had learned to get along and slowly the whole Aplha quadrant had managed to do so as well.
Cryptics approach is really taking Star Trek backwards.

[hoggj]

Maybe we may get a chance in Star Trek Online to rebuild the allience and freindship the Federation and Klingon Empire had.

[Interdictor]

Well, Jack did say something along the lines of "friends are enemies and enemies are friends".

A lot can happen in 30 years, and the Federation/Klingon alliance was never really that strong anyways. More a matter of convenience. Klingons respect humans? That just makes them more worthy enemies! :D

I'm betting the Feds got in between the Klingons and whomever they were going after in the years following Nemesis - I'm betting the Romulans (weakend after Nemesis and the Dominion War, and are not exactly in good graces with the Klingons). The Klingons didn't appreciate this and nullified our peace treaty with them like they did when we wouldn't support them when they invaded Cardassian space. Thus - we have friendlier relations with the Romulans and the Klingons view the Feds as a big group of Party-Poopers.

[Awarkle]

I think the federation is much more manipulative and explotive than what the startrek fandom let on, they have free reign to do whatever they want because they beleive they are right. They have a rule that states that all federation members trading ships have free access to any and all federation space.

Well if your an external trader and you have had to pay for your deutritium while the federation next door effectivly gets it for free its goign to broker a resentment.

and as for the klingons they are a war like nature they will strive for a honorable foe, and why pick on someone who is weak there is no honor in that and as the federation are effectivly the biggest target with the most strength (other than the borg) then your going to pick a fight with them for the better glory.

also federation is generally higher up the technology ladder due to free trade and the scientific nature of their society so more of a challenge.

as for the romulans they have a tendancy of becoming isolationists withdrawing away from the galaxy and wait then they pop up again.

I think the klingons are a good choice for a baddy i know we would all want the alpha quadrant to be peaceful and scerene but that would just mean cryptic inveting an alien menace that lets face it most of us would moan at.

I remmeber a final unity when they dumped the "chodak" i was like who are they ?

although i liked species 8472 but i think they were a bit TOO powerful to have as a constant enemy much like the borg.

[naynayz]

I can see the klingons getting ****ed at the federation for giving them what they see as too much help in reconstruction efforts.

[MCODakota]

According to Star Trek .com In the description of last ST:NG episode (All good things..) is says:

However, since the Klingons, who have taken over the Romulan Empire, closed their borders to Federation starships, and now control the area,...

I'm not sure of the time line of this part of the "history" but 10-15 years sounds about right....

If the Klingons are now roughly twice thier size, then why would deplomacy with the Federation matter anyway. And Open war sounds like what a more powerfull Kingon Empire would do....



Dakota

[Golic]

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The events in that episodes and the hundreds of hours of Trek that followed in other shows and movies erased the future of 'All Good Things.'
Although it was as a nice story telling tool for the episode that is as far as it should have gone.
In 'All Good Things' D had a third nacel. In fact D was destroyed in Generations.
Data was a lecturer at a leading university but in fact he died in Nemesis.
etc.
I strongly believe a main point to Star Trek is that humans and aliens learn to get along.
I am very disappointed that they have chosen to take Star Trek backwards by turning the Klingons into the enemy AGAIN.
Talk about beating a dead dog.

[Powercrisis]

I'm still not sure we're looking at the situation at the close of the Dominion War closely enough. The two most interesting people in the final episode of DS9 are Martok and Garak, with both of their final scenes being the most telling. Garak's final scene is of Bashir and himself looking at the casualty reports from the Dominion massacring Cardassia Prime. He laments how far his society has fallen and the daunting task of ever bringing Cardassia back to the forefront of Galactic Politics. From this scene, I get the notion that Garak would be a real force in the rebuilding of Cardassia. Just because he's a fan favorite, people think that he's almost a fed himself, but Garak is a patriot before anything else, and because of his Realpolitik notions, I have a hard time believing the Feds would want him in power, though I'm not sure what they could do to stop that from happening (Seriously, what viable Cardassian leader is left after the close of the war?).

Now, that in conjunction with Martok being the Chancellor of the Klingon Empire leads to a few points of contention between the Feds and Klingons, first being all of the Klingons in Cardassian space. We all know how much Klingons like to give up territory they've taken, especially territory that millions of Klingons died to gain. This could prove to sour relations between the Federation and the Klingons for decades to come. If you recall, the last scene where Martok has any lines is where he tries to share a toast of bloodwine with Sisko and Ross over the ruins of Cardassia Prime. Both Fed captains pour their cups on the ground, while Martok heartily drinks from the bottle. As much as Worf and Martok like each other, Worf's conflicted commitments may lead to a falling out between Martok and himself, and consequently the Klingons and the Federation. Even if Martok is more willing to leave Cardassian territoy than everyone assumes, there are still many warriors who would not agree with such a move. Martok's Chancellorship is then ripe for takeover by many factions within the empire, notably the surviving son of Duras, or even his own honorless son Drex. I wouldn't go as far as assassination (Martok is a war-hero after all), but a mere challenge to personal combat by any of these parties could topple the current Klingon administration and install a much less friendly one.

The budding alliance between the Federaton and the Romulans at the end of Nemesis is the final point to make relations with the Klingons collapse. I can't even count how many times the Romulans have tried to interfere with Klingon politics (Hell, ANYBODY'S politics), with the consequence of making an almost irreparable lack of trust and animosity between the two powers. The alliance for the Dominion War was one of convenience (built of course, on lies and deceit thanks to Garak and Sisko) and even after the Senate gets trashed, who is in the best position to take over, but the Tal Shiar? The Klingons see this alliance as the Feds jumping into bed with the Tal Shiar and wonder who they can trust anymore, leading of course to our current situation of strained (to say the least) galactic tensions.

That is my guess as to whats been going on in the last 30 years in the Alpha Quadrant, and I wish Cryptic would freakin hire me (intern?) so I could help make it happen.

[Golic]

I'm still not sure we're looking at the situation at the close of the Dominion War closely enough. The two most interesting people in the final episode of DS9 are Martok and Garak, with both of their final scenes being the most telling. Garak's final scene is of Bashir and himself looking at the casualty reports from the Dominion massacring Cardassia Prime. He laments how far his society has fallen and the daunting task of ever bringing Cardassia back to the forefront of Galactic Politics. From this scene, I get the notion that Garak would be a real force in the rebuilding of Cardassia. Just because he's a fan favorite, people think that he's almost a fed himself, but Garak is a patriot before anything else, and because of his Realpolitik notions, I have a hard time believing the Feds would want him in power, though I'm not sure what they could do to stop that from happening (Seriously, what viable Cardassian leader is left after the close of the war?).

Now, that in conjunction with Martok being the Chancellor of the Klingon Empire leads to a few points of contention between the Feds and Klingons, first being all of the Klingons in Cardassian space. We all know how much Klingons like to give up territory they've taken, especially territory that millions of Klingons died to gain. This could prove to sour relations between the Federation and the Klingons for decades to come. If you recall, the last scene where Martok has any lines is where he tries to share a toast of bloodwine with Sisko and Ross over the ruins of Cardassia Prime. Both Fed captains pour their cups on the ground, while Martok heartily drinks from the bottle. As much as Worf and Martok like each other, Worf's conflicted commitments may lead to a falling out between Martok and himself, and consequently the Klingons and the Federation. Even if Martok is more willing to leave Cardassian territoy than everyone assumes, there are still many warriors who would not agree with such a move. Martok's Chancellorship is then ripe for takeover by many factions within the empire, notably the surviving son of Duras, or even his own honorless son Drex. I wouldn't go as far as assassination (Martok is a war-hero after all), but a mere challenge to personal combat by any of these parties could topple the current Klingon administration and install a much less friendly one.

The budding alliance between the Federaton and the Romulans at the end of Nemesis is the final point to make relations with the Klingons collapse. I can't even count how many times the Romulans have tried to interfere with Klingon politics (Hell, ANYBODY'S politics), with the consequence of making an almost irreparable lack of trust and animosity between the two powers. The alliance for the Dominion War was one of convenience (built of course, on lies and deceit thanks to Garak and Sisko) and even after the Senate gets trashed, who is in the best position to take over, but the Tal Shiar? The Klingons see this alliance as the Feds jumping into bed with the Tal Shiar and wonder who they can trust anymore, leading of course to our current situation of strained (to say the least) galactic tensions.

That is my guess as to whats been going on in the last 30 years in the Alpha Quadrant, and I wish Cryptic would freakin hire me (intern?) so I could help make it happen.

Since Klingon VS Federation has been made official (unfortunately) I would have to say your telling of events leading to this hostility is the best I have encountered.

[Saerain]

I have to quote Captain_Intrepid from another thread:Klingons vs. Federation.

Considering the past history of the two galactic powers, here's my theory:

The Federation's ready to expand, thanks to the transwarp conduit technology. The Klingons are worried that this will leave their Empire to stagnate, and possibly die while the Federation picks up the pieces. Maybe the Federation offers to share the technology if the Klingons become members of the Federation.

I wouldn't doubt that the Klingons demanded to use the transwarp technology so they could expand their empire. When the Federation refused, the Klingons broke off from their truce and sought to rip it from the hands of their former allies. After all, they both have their ideas of how to expand and the Klingons aren't exactly the type to not seize any opportunity that they they can find to test their warrior mettle and lay claim to the galaxy.

[TristanPEJ]

someone called someone else's mother a filthy Targ

it went downhill from there.

[phazah]

im thinking its more of a cold war than an out and out hot war between the federation and the klingon empire....

you can be enemies but still be associated (heck look at our current situations with usa and russia)

[Wraiven]

"Captain's Log, Stardate 9522.6. I've never trusted Klingons, and I never will. I can never forgive them for the death of my boy".

*that* is what happened.

[MajorD]

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=145886&postcount=49
I went out before I could finish, so here are some conclusions.

Considering the conditions of the Cardassian Union and Romulan Star Empire up until now, I find it reasonable that with Federation aid, those two empires will move far closer to the Federation in relations. My reasoning is, the Cardassians have been pounded in the the style of total warfare, thanks to the Dominion. They have no infrastructure, and the civilian population was left with only thoughts of surviving to the next day. All energy that could have been used to form opposition to Federation aid is focused on survival, most people are simply relieved to get help from anyone. To top it off, the Cardassians successfully instituted a civilian government just before the Dominion War, and the military government became completely discredited during the Dominion war, which shows they already have a culture that can support a civilian government and makes the transition back to it much easier. As for the Romulans. they should be in disarray and suffering from the worst bout of paranoia in centuries, after Shinzon's coup. Even with the senate quickly being reformed right after Shinzon being defeated by Picard, the military backed Shinzon, which means no one will trust the military. Civilians won't trust the government, nor military, because the government vanished during the worst crisis in centuries, and the military allowed a situation where the Federation had ample reason to invade Romulan space, even without the success of killing off Earth's population. The military delivered the Romulans into the hands of a madman. We already know Romulans were questioning the government before that point, but now it would be uncontainable. The Senate even went so far as to allow Federation representatives back to Romulus, after Shinzon's coup, indicating the acceptance of trying to create closer, more open ties with the Federation. Maybe the ban on Romulan Ale will finally be over.:D

The Klingons, seeing their old enemies come closer with their strongest ally (who was once their strongest enemy), become angered, confused, and threatened, under the impression that it might be the Federation moving more toward Romulan and Cardassian thinking, rather than the other way around. Council members in opposition to the mistrust, and more moderate members of council, remind the council that the Federation has always stood by its agreements with the Klingons, that it was themselves who broke the treaty before the Dominion War, and that the Federation fought bravely beside them in the Dominion War. Mentioning the alliance brings up memories of perceived cowardliness, in how the Federation is always hesitant to go to battle, some mistrust Federation pacifism, thinking it inherently dishonest and dangerous to the Klingons Empire. Others see themselves becoming too much like humans, and fear the influence Federation culture is having on the Empire.

A rallying point for anti-Federation sentiment revolves around the Federation having simply grown far larger than any other empire, even the Klingon Empire. This leads to a new effort to expand the empire, especially using the old methods. The Federation takes offense to this and sends formal protests to the Klingons. Ties between the Federation and Klingons would have already been deteriorating, but this would be the point where any standing alliance would really start crumbling, as Federation members would point to the Klingon's actions as proving them a menace, once again.

This happens over the course of thirty years.

I agree, using the Klingons is a cop-out, only because the Klingons are used so darn much, just about every movie has them, a large part of Deep Space 9 focuses on Klingons, even Voyager had Klingons and they weren't even anywhere near Klingons, not including B'Elanna Torres (half Klingon). Even Enterprise had Klingons right from the get go. At the same time, you get to be the Klingons and fight against the Federation, rather than alongside them, and that totally makes up for it.
I think the federation is much more manipulative and explotive than what the startrek fandom let on, they have free reign to do whatever they want because they beleive they are right.
Picard and Sisko always questioned their hardest decisions, before and after they had made them. They don't think themselves perfect, Picard at least thinks humanity is better than humanity of the past, but realizes that for all the progress that has been made, there are loads of progress still to be made. When Picard quotes Shakespear's
What a piece of work is man!
How noble in reason!
how infinite in faculties!
in form and moving, how express and admirable!
in action how like an angel!

in apprehension, how like a god!
Picard quotes it without irony, but doesn't mean that as how man is in his present, he states that this is the expression of his hope for what man will be in the future.
They have a rule that states that all federation members trading ships have free access to any and all federation space.

Well if your an external trader and you have had to pay for your deutritium while the federation next door effectivly gets it for free its goign to broker a resentment.
When did that happen?

although i liked species 8472 but i think they were a bit TOO powerful to have as a constant enemy much like the borg. They wouldn't be good anyway, at the end of their arc, they turned out to be just normal dudes, afraid of the Borg like anyone else. So Janeway and Species 8472 were got along famously by the end of the final S8472 episode. Lame.

[Golic]

im thinking its more of a cold war than an out and out hot war between the federation and the klingon empire....

you can be enemies but still be associated (heck look at our current situations with usa and russia)

shame on USA

[Space_Cadet]

It's rather odd. I would suspect that the Federation vs Romulans made better sense. Federation vs Klingons is kinda a throwback as oppose to moving forward. To be honest I feel Cryptic is taking the easy way out on this.

[TruthSeer]

The Klingons, seeing their old enemies come closer with their strongest ally (who was once their strongest enemy), become angered, confused, and threatened, under the impression that it might be the Federation moving more toward Romulan and Cardassian thinking, rather than the other way around. Council members in opposition to the mistrust, and more moderate members of council, remind the council that the Federation has always stood by its agreements with the Klingons, that it was themselves who broke the treaty before the Dominion War, and that the Federation fought bravely beside them in the Dominion War. Mentioning the alliance brings up memories of perceived cowardliness, in how the Federation is always hesitant to go to battle, some mistrust Federation pacifism, thinking it inherently dishonest and dangerous to the Klingons Empire. Others see themselves becoming too much like humans, and fear the influence Federation culture is having on the Empire.

A rallying point for anti-Federation sentiment revolves around the Federation having simply grown far larger than any other empire, even the Klingon Empire. This leads to a new effort to expand the empire, especially using the old methods. The Federation takes offense to this and sends formal protests to the Klingons. Ties between the Federation and Klingons would have already been deteriorating, but this would be the point where any standing alliance would really start crumbling, as Federation members would point to the Klingon's actions as proving them a menace, once again.

This happens over the course of thirty years.



I'd be satisfied with a story like this, and knowing the Klingons most of them would we yelling for war and Worf and maybe Martok supporting peace, they were probably dead within a week.

[Powercrisis]

I actually think Klingon vs. Fed makes more sense than most people give it credit for. Both sides are classic enemies not because of a violent past (though there have been some really bad incidents) like Klingon vs. Romulans, but because of incompatible societies. I don't like the notion that the Enterprise writers proposed that the Klingons would join the Federation some time in the 26th century because of the stark and uncompromisable values both cultures hold dear. I agree with many of the posters on this board that Klingon society relies on expansion in order to survive, and being that the given medium is space, this allows for theoretically infinite expansion. However, this expansion is also caused by a need for natural resources which leads them into direct confrontation with their neighbors. Klingon culture is built on this competitive notion so much that violence is often the preferred method of competition, which is a huge contrast to the feds whose society is based on diplomacy and space-age socialism. There was a short window of time during the DS9 era where the writters tried to make the Klingons more agreeable to the Federation (Warm and fuzzy restaurant owners singing bad klingon opera to their patrons), but many of the fans felt having there be non-warrior Klingons to run against what made the Klingons cool in the first place, ie: their warrior culture. Now, this doesn't mean they have to be at war, of even enemies all the time, it just means that the two empires will never settle their differences with each other without compromising every ideal that each society is based upon.

[archangel118]

My issue with the whole thing is that its taken over a hundred years for the Klingons and Federation to get this close and develop these close ties, don't you guys think that both sides would maybe fight a little harder to preserve an alliance that has generally been beneficial to both? I mean, yeah they've had spats, but they've always managed to work through them and its always resulted in stronger ties between them. It just doesn't make much sense to me that after 100 years they would just let them become so strained in 30 that they are on the brink of war. I just don't see it, the Federation especially would be likely to try everything to maintain strong ties with the Klingons because its good for both races. I realize that Klingons like to fight and thus would want a good opponent, but why not choose someone like the Hirogen or something, instead of your closest ally. Especially when said ally has fought side by side with you against the greatest threat posed to the Alpha quadrant, as well as helped improve the empire. Anyways, I just think its a bit of a cop out, as someone said, like beating a dead horse. Why not come up with something new instead of resorting to the same old standby enemy of the Federation. Its just, well, kind of boring really. Its used up. I was hoping for a new threat, not the same one we've seen since the beginning. I would be willing to accept the civil war idea, as thats about the only way I see something like this happening, but even then its selling Trek a little short. I'll still play the game of course, but I can't help but be disappointed to see them using the same old enemy.

[vp21ct]

This is how my theory goes for the 30 years after Nemisis only listing the years of Key events:

2380: The Romulan Empire begins to collapse, civil war and internal strife send billions of refugees to the Federation, particularly to Vulcan.

2382: Bajor is officialy annexed to the Federation, and the Cardassian Union begins to discuss the possibility of folowing suit.

2385: The Romulan Civil War reaches its peak, the Federation begins to worry about one particular faction "the Sons of Romulus" who seem to be religious fanatics that believe that ALL romulans (or even Vulcans) are entitled to rule the galaxy.

2386: the Cardassian Union begins to hold talks with the Federation over the annexation of their systems.

2387: the Cardassian Union is annexed to the Federation, the klingon empire begins to have its first fears of a Federation take over.

2388: The Romulan Civil War begins to draw to a close, the Sons of Romulus apear to be the inevitable victors.

2389: the Federation intervenes in the Romulan Civil War. they lend support to the weakened Romulan Empire. Klingons take this, along with the annexation of the Cardassians, as evidence of a Federation plot to take over the Quadrant once and for all.

2390: The seacond Romulan-Federation War officialy begins as Federation escort ships are attacked by the Sons of Romulus. Klingons begin expanding oposite their border with the Federation, as well as scouting the Federations defences. Martok begins to realize the fear and anger in the Klingon people, but fears it may be to late.

2392: the Federation and newly formed Romulan Republic aproach their goal of destroying the Sons of Romulus. With the threat essentialy neutralized, talks begin on forging a solid and steady alliance. Martok recieves the first of many Challenges to his position that are related to the coming war.

2393: The Sons of Romulus are declared officially beaten. The Klingon High Council begins open discusions of the possibility of war.

2394: Near the end of the year the Federation and the Romulan Republic sign the seacond treaty of Algernon, stating that both governments will join in a mutual protection treaty and open borders agreement, as well the restiction of Star Fleet ships possessing cloaking technology is lifted.

2395: Martok is challenged once again. This time, rather than accept, he forfeits in the hopes of showing the dignity of wisdome. This however only streangthens the belief that the Federation is taking over the quadrant. Martok pleads with the new chancellor to allow him to make a bid for peace with the Federation, in the hopes of avoiding a war they cannot win.

2395 (cont): Worf is sent to escort Martoks ship, but klingon ships, flown by the Sons of Romulus, intercept and destroy both Worf's and Martok's vessels, the battle was feirce and many enemy ships were destroyed in the process.

2396: the Klingon Empire makes an open declaration of war on the United Federation of Planets. Their attack focuses mostly on the worlds of the former Cardassian Union. As the first battles begin, many ships are lost on both sides. The Federation requests aid from the Romulan Republic. However, fully aware that a war with the Klingons would result in their destruction, and weary of war, the Romulans only lend a paultry support of the Federation.

2397: the Federation-Klingon war, which has been coming since over 100 years prior, is in full swing. The former Cardassian Union is split between the Federation and the Klingon Empire. The seacond Romulan Civil War begins with the re-emergence of the Sons of Romulus. Cardassians begin to feal resentment to both the Federation and the Empire, believing that they would have been better off on their own. the Bajorans begin to entertain similar thoughts.

2400: With the turn of the centurly new technology is made available. The transwarp drive brought back by Voyager is finally perfected and is believed to be the sorce of a possible victory.

2401: SoR spys working for the Empire steal the transwarp drive tech. The war drags on.

2404: The SoR is able to take half of the Romulan Republic and renames themselves the Romulan Star Empire. They adopt an Issolationist policy.

2408: The Romulans remain deadlocked. The Federation and the Klingon Empire have both been unable to gain a real advantage over the other for the past 4 years. The Dominion begins to reawaken its military might with the belief that the war might soon spread to the Gamma Quadrant. Borg ships are sighted in the fringes of both the Federation and the Empire. Both the Federation and the Klingon Empire begin to plan for a longer war than expected, pulling ships from the front to explore for further resorces and new allies......

[archangel118]

The issue with this is they did say in the webcast "friends are enemies, enemies are friends." In your portrayal of things, no one is friends with anyone anymore, the Federation would be pretty much on their own. If the Klingons are enemies, I could see the Cardassians as allies now, and the Romulans as cautious allies. I mean, if the Klingons (the former friends) are now enemies, then the Romulans and/or Cardassians (the former enemies) should now be friends. At least, thats if you go off what was said in the wbecast.

[archangel118]

BTW, I'm not saying you're wrong or anything, thats just as possible as any other scenario, it would just mean that there really aren't any friends anymore, only new and renewed enemies. I guess we'll have to wait until they release the new timeline. As I said, I think the idea that I'd most be able to swallow is the civil war idea where the empire is in two, one pro-federation and one anti-federation, and part of the Klingon story would be trying to reunite the factions under one banner, with the feds trying to assist the pro side while dealing with other threats such as the Borg and maybe the Hirogen now.

[vp21ct]

The issue with this is they did say in the webcast "friends are enemies, enemies are friends." In your portrayal of things, no one is friends with anyone anymore, the Federation would be pretty much on their own. If the Klingons are enemies, I could see the Cardassians as allies now, and the Romulans as cautious allies. I mean, if the Klingons (the former friends) are now enemies, then the Romulans and/or Cardassians (the former enemies) should now be friends. At least, thats if you go off what was said in the wbecast.

Only my speculations, Notice I didn't say that the Dominion or the borg had taken sides, and the breen are left out entirely. Also i ended at 2408, there is still a whole year for different developments.

But yeah i also forgot about that part of the Webcast two :p.

I would suppose that there would be strong remnants of the R.R. as well as a large amount of Cardassians still with the federation. I thought of the SoR as a way to make even members of the federation enemys (remember that vulcans are VERY close to being romulans, and i am certain that some of them would support such and elitist view) who knows, mabe the romulans are still fighting their civil war. i only posted what i thought would be visible from the Federation side of things (at least for the last Decade).

Remeber the maquis were never very big, and i am certain that it would eventually align with the federation again.

[archangel118]

Yeah but I can't see the Vulcans doing anything like that, they are logical, and to them it would not be logical to believe they are supposed to be the masters of the galaxy nor would they see it as logical to betray an organization they are such important members of. Anyways, it'll be interesting to see how things go.

[TheMasterpiece]

Polaron, your astute description of how the Federation and Klingon Empire were on the best of terms after the Dominion War is exactly what confuses me about Cryptic's STO. How could things deteriorate when Martok was Chancellor AND Worf was the Federation Ambassador to Kronos?

Any explanation Cryptic offers will not be enough in my eyes. The Star Trek writers and creators were pushing towards a complete merging of the Klingon Empire and the Federation, but since Cryptic needed to put PvP into this game they decided to throw all of that out the window. It's a cop-out and extremely disappointing. Any other species outside of the Federation would have made more sense than the Klingons. It's ridiculous and I don't like it.



ouch. not even gonna give em a chance?

[vp21ct]

This is how my theory goes for the 30 years after Nemisis only listing the years of Key events:

2380: The Romulan Empire begins to collapse, civil war and internal strife send billions of refugees to the Federation, particularly to Vulcan.

2382: Bajor is officialy annexed to the Federation, and the Cardassian Union begins to discuss the possibility of folowing suit.

2385: The Romulan Civil War reaches its peak, the Federation begins to worry about one particular faction "the Sons of Romulus" who seem to be religious fanatics that believe that ALL romulans (or even Vulcans) are entitled to rule the galaxy.

2386: the Cardassian Union begins to hold talks with the Federation over the annexation of their systems.

2387: the Cardassian Union is annexed to the Federation, the klingon empire begins to have its first fears of a Federation take over.

2388: The Romulan Civil War begins to draw to a close, the Sons of Romulus apear to be the inevitable victors.

2389: the Federation intervenes in the Romulan Civil War. they lend support to the weakened Romulan Empire. Klingons take this, along with the annexation of the Cardassians, as evidence of a Federation plot to take over the Quadrant once and for all.

2390: The seacond Romulan-Federation War officialy begins as Federation escort ships are attacked by the Sons of Romulus. Klingons begin expanding oposite their border with the Federation, as well as scouting the Federations defences. Martok begins to realize the fear and anger in the Klingon people, but fears it may be to late.

2392: the Federation and newly formed Romulan Republic aproach their goal of destroying the Sons of Romulus. With the threat essentialy neutralized, talks begin on forging a solid and steady alliance. Martok recieves the first of many Challenges to his position that are related to the coming war.

2393: The Sons of Romulus are declared officially beaten. The Klingon High Council begins open discusions of the possibility of war.

2394: Near the end of the year the Federation and the Romulan Republic sign the seacond treaty of Algernon, stating that both governments will join in a mutual protection treaty and open borders agreement, as well the restiction of Star Fleet ships possessing cloaking technology is lifted.

2395: Martok is challenged once again. This time, rather than accept, he forfeits in the hopes of showing the dignity of wisdome. This however only streangthens the belief that the Federation is taking over the quadrant. Martok pleads with the new chancellor to allow him to make a bid for peace with the Federation, in the hopes of avoiding a war they cannot win.

2395 (cont): Worf is sent to escort Martoks ship, but klingon ships, flown by the Sons of Romulus, intercept and destroy both Worf's and Martok's vessels, the battle was feirce and many enemy ships were destroyed in the process.

2396: the Klingon Empire makes an open declaration of war on the United Federation of Planets. Their attack focuses mostly on the worlds of the former Cardassian Union. As the first battles begin, many ships are lost on both sides. The Federation requests aid from the Romulan Republic. However, fully aware that a war with the Klingons would result in their destruction, and weary of war, the Romulans only lend a paultry support of the Federation.

2397: the Federation-Klingon war, which has been coming since over 100 years prior, is in full swing. The former Cardassian Union is split between the Federation and the Klingon Empire. The seacond Romulan Civil War begins with the re-emergence of the Sons of Romulus. Cardassians begin to feal resentment to both the Federation and the Empire, believing that they would have been better off on their own. the Bajorans begin to entertain similar thoughts.

2400: With the turn of the centurly new technology is made available. The transwarp drive brought back by Voyager is finally perfected and is believed to be the sorce of a possible victory.

2401: SoR spys working for the Empire steal the transwarp drive tech. The war drags on.

2404: The SoR is able to take half of the Romulan Republic and renames themselves the Romulan Star Empire. They adopt an Issolationist policy.

2408: The Romulans remain deadlocked. The Federation and the Klingon Empire have both been unable to gain a real advantage over the other for the past 4 years. The Dominion begins to reawaken its military might with the belief that the war might soon spread to the Gamma Quadrant. Borg ships are sighted in the fringes of both the Federation and the Empire. Both the Federation and the Klingon Empire begin to plan for a longer war than expected, pulling ships from the front to explore for further resorces and new allies......

Revised and reposted.

[archangel118]

Interesting revisions, wouldn't it be something if the Dominion came to be allies with the Federation? Man that would be something, I mean the Feds would be looking for new allies to deal with the new threat of the Klingons and the re-emergence with the Borg. Although it would kind of fly in the face of the incredible animosity posed by the Dominion to "solids" so recently. It would be cool to have the Dominion playable, and the Romulans, and then both species aren't directly involved in the war but can conduct small skirmish missions against one side or the other or something. Who knows?

[vp21ct]

Interesting revisions, wouldn't it be something if the Dominion came to be allies with the Federation? Man that would be something, I mean the Feds would be looking for new allies to deal with the new threat of the Klingons and the re-emergence with the Borg. Although it would kind of fly in the face of the incredible animosity posed by the Dominion to "solids" so recently. It would be cool to have the Dominion playable, and the Romulans, and then both species aren't directly involved in the war but can conduct small skirmish missions against one side or the other or something. Who knows?

There is no doubt at all that the Klingons won the Dominion war for the alpha quadrant, no matter how much the federation chipped in. To this end i think the Dominion would be VERY fearful of a Klingon Empire taking control of the whole alpha quadrant. The Romulans are devided in my scenario because i just can't see them NOT playing both sides, even if it is because of an internal devision. I think that the way i had the Cardassians join the Federation would be the most logical coarse for them to take after such a terrible war, and then to be helped by the people they wared with. The Borg will ALWAYS be a threat and i think that they should come back stronger than ever, HOWEVER, a playable Borg Cooperative Faction allied with the Federation would be a good idea later on, since i would like to see more of them.

This is, IMO, the most logical way that the Klingons would go to war with the feds. it just makes sense that after such terrible events the Federation would be able to gain a defenite upper hand on the Klingons, and they wouldn't like that at all.

[Flixi]

whatever happend in the last 30 years, I like the idea of Federation and Klingons being at war again.
Or at least kind of cold relation or broken alliance.


At some point i hated that the Klingons went allied with Federation, because they were just the coolest enemies out there, much better than the Borg.

I also like the idea that romulans still have a great empire and are enemies to Federation and Klingons. This would give me back the feeling of old TOS and TNG, where the neutral Zone and Alpha quadrant was a dangerous area to explore.


So whatever the story will be like:

Make Klingons enemies of Federation
and make Romulans enemy to nearly all (maybe alliance with Dominion)
Make Borg enemy to all and make Cardassian maybe allied with Klingons and/or Dominion.


That would be cool

[vp21ct]

whatever happend in the last 30 years, I like the idea of Federation and Klingons being at war again.
Or at least kind of cold relation or broken alliance.


At some point i hated that the Klingons went allied with Federation, because they were just the coolest enemies out there, much better than the Borg.

I also like the idea that romulans still have a great empire and are enemies to Federation and Klingons. This would give me back the feeling of old TOS and TNG, where the neutral Zone and Alpha quadrant was a dangerous area to explore.


So whatever the story will be like:

Make Klingons enemies of Federation
and make Romulans enemy to nearly all (maybe alliance with Dominion)
Make Borg enemy to all and make Cardassian maybe allied with Klingons and/or Dominion.


That would be cool

But it would just be where star trek left off, with maybee slightly different alliances. I don't think the Developers want that, they wan't a clean slate.

Also it would be unrealistic for so little to change after:
a) The fall of the Romulan Senate
b) The events of the domion war, including the near destruction of the Cardassian Union.

[archangel118]

whatever happend in the last 30 years, I like the idea of Federation and Klingons being at war again.
Or at least kind of cold relation or broken alliance.


At some point i hated that the Klingons went allied with Federation, because they were just the coolest enemies out there, much better than the Borg.

I also like the idea that romulans still have a great empire and are enemies to Federation and Klingons. This would give me back the feeling of old TOS and TNG, where the neutral Zone and Alpha quadrant was a dangerous area to explore.


So whatever the story will be like:

Make Klingons enemies of Federation
and make Romulans enemy to nearly all (maybe alliance with Dominion)
Make Borg enemy to all and make Cardassian maybe allied with Klingons and/or Dominion.


That would be cool

Romulans, after events in Nemesis, are likely on better terms with Federation than ever before. Highly unlikely that they would ally with Dominion, I cant see the Dominion allying with anyone really, unless something major has changed since the Dominion war. Second, Cardassians allied with the Klingons or the Dominion is ridiculous. They currently despise the Dominion for BOMBING THEIR HOME WORLD, so its unlikely they would ally with them again. Same with the Klingons, who attacked them more than once and were glad to see them crushed. If anything, the Cardassian Union would ally with the Federation as the Feds are likely providing much assistance to them, or Cardassia has formed good relations with Bajor and either way is friends with the Federation. Even though it might be cool, it would kind of go against everything that happened up to this point.

[Flixi]

weak empires tend to ...

either give up and join Federation

or don't give up and join enemy of their former enemies.


For Cardassians it would either make sense to join Klingons, Dominion, or even both or in worst case, they join Federation. Maybe you are right about Cardassians not joining Dominion, I am not up to date with lore here, but Cardassians in federation sounds not funny for me.

Romulans were such a great empire, believe me, they cannot be crushed simply by this trouble with the senate. New senate, new empire, thats all they need. Of course they can have a more friendly relationship to Federation now, but Romulans are the galaxy's best intrigants :)

[vp21ct]

weak empires tend to ...

either give up and join Federation

or don't give up and join enemy of their former enemies.


For Cardassians it would either make sense to join Klingons, Dominion, or even both or in worst case, they join Federation. Maybe you are right about Cardassians not joining Dominion, I am not up to date with lore here, but Cardassians in federation sounds not funny for me.

Romulans were such a great empire, believe me, they cannot be crushed simply by this trouble with the senate. New senate, new empire, thats all they need. Of course they can have a more friendly relationship to Federation now, but Romulans are the galaxy's best intrigants :)

I think you are under-estimating the effects of loosing EVERY SINGLE major political leader of youre empire. Remember its not the Fall that kills you, Its the Sudden Stop at the end.
I think a Romulan Civil War is VERY likely, the remans hated their position, and many romulans were peons in the empire, they would undoubtedly want to gain more power/equal rites. This would be the Faction that allies with the Federation.

Traditionalist romulans would likely only get more ground into their old habbits.

[archangel118]

The biggest change with the Cardassions was the adoption of a civilian government, and abandonment of a military government. Not only that, Garak likely became the leader, and he was kind of pro-federation. They might not join the Federation, but its likely that they would become friends or at least become a lot more open and receptive to each other, and less so to the Klingons or Dominion, as once again, those are the 2 empires that quite recently attacked them and tried to destroy them. Generally it takes a little more than 30 years to get over another empire trying to wipe you out. And the end of Nemesis suggested the Romulans and Federation were likely moving towards closer ties due to the Federation assisting with the Shinzon issue. I liked the other poster who suggested maybe a Romulan civil war, I could see that happening.

[vp21ct]

That was I am.

[archangel118]

And I agree more with that than what the other poster was suggesting. It sounded to me like he was more looking for a lot more tension and hostility, without regard to canon or the recent past.

[vp21ct]

This is how my theory goes for the 30 years after Nemisis only listing the years of Key events:

2380: The Romulan Empire begins to collapse, civil war and internal strife send billions of refugees to the Federation, particularly to Vulcan.

2382: Bajor is officialy annexed to the Federation, and the Cardassian Union begins to discuss the possibility of folowing suit.

2385: The Romulan Civil War reaches its peak, the Federation begins to worry about one particular faction "the Sons of Romulus" who seem to be religious fanatics that believe that ALL romulans (or even Vulcans) are entitled to rule the galaxy.

2386: the Cardassian Union begins to hold talks with the Federation over the annexation of their systems.

2387: the Cardassian Union is annexed to the Federation, the klingon empire begins to have its first fears of a Federation take over.

2388: The Romulan Civil War begins to draw to a close, the Sons of Romulus apear to be the inevitable victors.

2389: the Federation intervenes in the Romulan Civil War. they lend support to the weakened Romulan Empire. Klingons take this, along with the annexation of the Cardassians, as evidence of a Federation plot to take over the Quadrant once and for all.

2390: The seacond Romulan-Federation War officialy begins as Federation escort ships are attacked by the Sons of Romulus. Klingons begin expanding oposite their border with the Federation, as well as scouting the Federations defences. Martok begins to realize the fear and anger in the Klingon people, but fears it may be to late.

2392: the Federation and newly formed Romulan Republic aproach their goal of destroying the Sons of Romulus. With the threat essentialy neutralized, talks begin on forging a solid and steady alliance. Martok recieves the first of many Challenges to his position that are related to the coming war.

2393: The Sons of Romulus are declared officially beaten. The Klingon High Council begins open discusions of the possibility of war.

2394: Near the end of the year the Federation and the Romulan Republic sign the seacond treaty of Algernon, stating that both governments will join in a mutual protection treaty and open borders agreement, as well the restiction of Star Fleet ships possessing cloaking technology is lifted.

2395: Martok is challenged once again. This time, rather than accept, he forfeits in the hopes of showing the dignity of wisdome. This however only streangthens the belief that the Federation is taking over the quadrant. Martok pleads with the new chancellor to allow him to make a bid for peace with the Federation, in the hopes of avoiding a war they cannot win.

2395 (cont): Worf is sent to escort Martoks ship, but klingon ships, flown by the Sons of Romulus, intercept and destroy both Worf's and Martok's vessels, the battle was feirce and many enemy ships were destroyed in the process.

2396: the Klingon Empire makes an open declaration of war on the United Federation of Planets. Their attack focuses mostly on the worlds of the former Cardassian Union. As the first battles begin, many ships are lost on both sides. The Federation requests aid from the Romulan Republic. However, fully aware that a war with the Klingons would result in their destruction, and weary of war, the Romulans only lend a paultry support of the Federation.

2397: the Federation-Klingon war, which has been coming since over 100 years prior, is in full swing. The former Cardassian Union is split between the Federation and the Klingon Empire. The seacond Romulan Civil War begins with the re-emergence of the Sons of Romulus. Cardassians begin to feal resentment to both the Federation and the Empire, believing that they would have been better off on their own. the Bajorans begin to entertain similar thoughts.

2400: With the turn of the centurly new technology is made available. The transwarp drive brought back by Voyager is finally perfected and is believed to be the sorce of a possible victory.

2401: SoR spys working for the Empire steal the transwarp drive tech. The war drags on.

2404: The SoR is able to take half of the Romulan Republic and renames themselves the Romulan Star Empire. They adopt an Issolationist policy.

2408: The Romulans remain deadlocked. The Federation and the Klingon Empire have both been unable to gain a real advantage over the other for the past 4 years. The Dominion begins to reawaken its military might with the belief that the war might soon spread to the Gamma Quadrant. Borg ships are sighted in the fringes of both the Federation and the Empire. Both the Federation and the Klingon Empire begin to plan for a longer war than expected, pulling ships from the front to explore for further resorces and new allies......

I am just puting this up again, i am pretty scertain that this is the most thought out scenario so far (though i could be a LITTLE bit biased)

[vp21ct]

Im also surprised no one noticed my paraphrasing of "to Explore strange new worlds and civilizations"

[Deletham_Tomalak]

I say its actually quite simple.

Worf with the candle stick in the Conservatory killed the Federation President :D

[vp21ct]

Even then, as guidelines, it provides somewhat of a direction and a better estimate than wild speculation.

Im sorry i just have to, even thou its such and old post

"well their not really a code....so much as guidelines"

[chase2806]

Basically I am infuriated with Cryptic over this matter. Instead of making a new alien race or races that would be the main enemy in this game, they go and make the Klingon's our adversary. AGAIN. I thought that a couple of the various TV series had stated that the Klingon's are friends of the Federation, no if, and's, or buts on the matter. Maybe not a hunky, dory friendship, but a rock solid, stable friendship till they join the Federation. But Cryptic turns around and does this.

In my opinion this decision completely and utterly slaps the faces of all the people, especially Gene Roddenberry, who worked on the TV series to make the Klingon's, through clever and inventive storytelling, one of the Federation's allies. All that Cryptic did is take the easy and dishonorable way out of a question as to who would be the new foe of the Alpha Quadrant. The current actions of this new developer of this MMO seem to be taking a turn towards the same path other developers take when they want to shamelessly cash in on an highly established license.

What Cryptic needs to do is get off their rears and put effort into making a better foe and storyline for this MMO. Something original, something that would have understandable reasons for doing what they do, so that the players can relate to them as well as have the players question some their missions that have them take action against this race or races.

Now I'd like to say again that this is an opinion based on the current information that is available to us at this point as well as my understanding of the events in the TV series. If I am wrong, which I surely hope so, then I will admit my error. Which will closely be followed by buying this awesome game and playing to my hearts content.

[vp21ct]

This is how my theory goes for the 30 years after Nemisis only listing the years of Key events:

2380: The Romulan Empire begins to collapse, civil war and internal strife send billions of refugees to the Federation, particularly to Vulcan.

2382: Bajor is officialy annexed to the Federation, and the Cardassian Union begins to discuss the possibility of folowing suit.

2385: The Romulan Civil War reaches its peak, the Federation begins to worry about one particular faction "the Sons of Romulus" who seem to be religious fanatics that believe that ALL romulans (or even Vulcans) are entitled to rule the galaxy.

2386: the Cardassian Union begins to hold talks with the Federation over the annexation of their systems.

2387: the Cardassian Union is annexed to the Federation, the klingon empire begins to have its first fears of a Federation take over.

2388: The Romulan Civil War begins to draw to a close, the Sons of Romulus apear to be the inevitable victors.

2389: the Federation intervenes in the Romulan Civil War. they lend support to the weakened Romulan Empire. Klingons take this, along with the annexation of the Cardassians, as evidence of a Federation plot to take over the Quadrant once and for all.

2390: The seacond Romulan-Federation War officialy begins as Federation escort ships are attacked by the Sons of Romulus. Klingons begin expanding oposite their border with the Federation, as well as scouting the Federations defences. Martok begins to realize the fear and anger in the Klingon people, but fears it may be to late.

2392: the Federation and newly formed Romulan Republic aproach their goal of destroying the Sons of Romulus. With the threat essentialy neutralized, talks begin on forging a solid and steady alliance. Martok recieves the first of many Challenges to his position that are related to the coming war.

2393: The Sons of Romulus are declared officially beaten. The Klingon High Council begins open discusions of the possibility of war.

2394: Near the end of the year the Federation and the Romulan Republic sign the seacond treaty of Algernon, stating that both governments will join in a mutual protection treaty and open borders agreement, as well the restiction of Star Fleet ships possessing cloaking technology is lifted.

2395: Martok is challenged once again. This time, rather than accept, he forfeits in the hopes of showing the dignity of wisdome. This however only streangthens the belief that the Federation is taking over the quadrant. Martok pleads with the new chancellor to allow him to make a bid for peace with the Federation, in the hopes of avoiding a war they cannot win.

2395 (cont): Worf is sent to escort Martoks ship, but klingon ships, flown by the Sons of Romulus, intercept and destroy both Worf's and Martok's vessels, the battle was feirce and many enemy ships were destroyed in the process.

2396: the Klingon Empire makes an open declaration of war on the United Federation of Planets. Their attack focuses mostly on the worlds of the former Cardassian Union. As the first battles begin, many ships are lost on both sides. The Federation requests aid from the Romulan Republic. However, fully aware that a war with the Klingons would result in their destruction, and weary of war, the Romulans only lend a paultry support of the Federation.

2397: the Federation-Klingon war, which has been coming since over 100 years prior, is in full swing. The former Cardassian Union is split between the Federation and the Klingon Empire. The seacond Romulan Civil War begins with the re-emergence of the Sons of Romulus. Cardassians begin to feal resentment to both the Federation and the Empire, believing that they would have been better off on their own. the Bajorans begin to entertain similar thoughts.

2400: With the turn of the centurly new technology is made available. The transwarp drive brought back by Voyager is finally perfected and is believed to be the sorce of a possible victory.

2401: SoR spys working for the Empire steal the transwarp drive tech. The war drags on.

2404: The SoR is able to take half of the Romulan Republic and renames themselves the Romulan Star Empire. They adopt an Issolationist policy.

2408: The Romulans remain deadlocked. The Federation and the Klingon Empire have both been unable to gain a real advantage over the other for the past 4 years. The Dominion begins to reawaken its military might with the belief that the war might soon spread to the Gamma Quadrant. Borg ships are sighted in the fringes of both the Federation and the Empire. Both the Federation and the Klingon Empire begin to plan for a longer war than expected, pulling ships from the front to explore for further resorces and new allies......

Basically I am infuriated with Cryptic over this matter. Instead of making a new alien race or races that would be the main enemy in this game, they go and make the Klingon's our adversary. AGAIN. I thought that a couple of the various TV series had stated that the Klingon's are friends of the Federation, no if, and's, or buts on the matter. Maybe not a hunky, dory friendship, but a rock solid, stable friendship till they join the Federation. But Cryptic turns around and does this.

In my opinion this decision completely and utterly slaps the faces of all the people, especially Gene Roddenberry, who worked on the TV series to make the Klingon's, through clever and inventive storytelling, one of the Federation's allies. All that Cryptic did is take the easy and dishonorable way out of a question as to who would be the new foe of the Alpha Quadrant. The current actions of this new developer of this MMO seem to be taking a turn towards the same path other developers take when they want to shamelessly cash in on an highly established license.

What Cryptic needs to do is get off their rears and put effort into making a better foe and storyline for this MMO. Something original, something that would have understandable reasons for doing what they do, so that the players can relate to them as well as have the players question some their missions that have them take action against this race or races.

Now I'd like to say again that this is an opinion based on the current information that is available to us at this point as well as my understanding of the events in the TV series. If I am wrong, which I surely hope so, then I will admit my error. Which will closely be followed by buying this awesome game and playing to my hearts content.

this is a post for youre benefit, seriosly read the rest of the thread.

[archangel118]

I say its actually quite simple.

Worf with the candle stick in the Conservatory killed the Federation President :D

Damn that Worf! Good thing someone is good at Clue around here or we'd never have figured it out!

[Deletham_Tomalak]

Thanks ^-^ Though Sela looks awfully shifty...

Anyway, I think a good way to describe the break down of relations could be linked to an increase in Fed/Romulan relations for the better. Along with tech trades, economic partnerships and the like after the events of nemesis (Soft Cannon Aside). It would be logical to assume the Klingons would feel threatened and might begin to distance themselves from their former allies and come ST:O time frame they may have suffered economic distress and snapped.

[vp21ct]

Thanks ^-^ Though Sela looks awfully shifty...

Anyway, I think a good way to describe the break down of relations could be linked to an increase in Fed/Romulan relations for the better. Along with tech trades, economic partnerships and the like after the events of nemesis (Soft Cannon Aside). It would be logical to assume the Klingons would feel threatened and might begin to distance themselves from their former allies and come ST:O time frame they may have suffered economic distress and snapped.

Ok thats it......my give up, i am the only one who thinks i had a good idea. Seriosly READ THE REST OF THE THREAD. at the very least nod ur head to the list of things i took a friggin hour righting

[Azurian]

I'm surprised people forget about the end of TNG, that Worf was in an Ambassador (like he was at the end of DS9) even in that parallel universe, the future wasn't so bright. Just like it is now. But eventually the Klingons do join the Federation (according to Enterprise).

So you can think of it like how Russia is reemerging as a major power, after being quiet for so many years after Soviet Union collapsed.

[vp21ct]

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[Deletham_Tomalak]

Alright I read your time line and I can say without a doubt I like it. It sounds plausible just needs some flushing out especially the different factions of Romulus. Regardless, I apologize for diving into this discussion without proper research.

I am only shaky on the Cardassian Annexation they are an extremely proud and stuck up people. Beyond that I find it quite plausible.

[vp21ct]

Alright I read your time line and I can say without a doubt I like it. It sounds plausible just needs some flushing out especially the different factions of Romulus. Regardless, I apologize for diving into this discussion without proper research.

I am only shaky on the Cardassian Annexation they are an extremely proud and stuck up people. Beyond that I find it quite plausible.

*smiles and feels like they are worth something again*

[archangel118]

Does someone need a hug:p

[archangel118]

BTW, I already gave you kudos for your ideas, I thought the idea of the Romulan civil war was good. Although, I think the only reason I would accept the Klingons as enemies, as I said, would be a civil war where some are pro federation and some are against, and you could work with the pro to reunite them as feds and work against with maybe pirates or something to prevent it, and then when they finally add another race as playable, they could have them either allied again or at total war depending on which faction had done better by that time. Just an idea.

[vp21ct]

Alright I read your time line and I can say without a doubt I like it. It sounds plausible just needs some flushing out especially the different factions of Romulus. Regardless, I apologize for diving into this discussion without proper research.

I am only shaky on the Cardassian Annexation they are an extremely proud and stuck up people. Beyond that I find it quite plausible.

I thought more on the Cardassian Annexation, and i think that they wouldn't be added until later on, like when the klingons became more hostile. I still think that they would entertain the idea pretty early on at the least.

[manadarken]

Maybe Warf had relations with a human and the sex was too rough for her?

That would be enough to make me declare war :D

[archangel118]

I thought more on the Cardassian Annexation, and i think that they wouldn't be added until later on, like when the klingons became more hostile. I still think that they would entertain the idea pretty early on at the least.

It makes sense, as after what happened to Cardassia Prime, the Feds were helping them rebuild, so what I could see happening is they decided to swallow their pride and accept help, especially since the civilians had grown tired of the actions of the military pushing them into a war they didn't really want and a war that ended up devastating their home planet and the civilian population, so they'd probably be a lot more receptive to the Federation at this point. Especially with a guy like Garak in power, he was good friends with the Feds and worked with them to start the rebellion. So I could see it.

[vp21ct]

BTW, I already gave you kudos for your ideas, I thought the idea of the Romulan civil war was good. Although, I think the only reason I would accept the Klingons as enemies, as I said, would be a civil war where some are pro federation and some are against, and you could work with the pro to reunite them as feds and work against with maybe pirates or something to prevent it, and then when they finally add another race as playable, they could have them either allied again or at total war depending on which faction had done better by that time. Just an idea.

While that would be a great mechanic in something more like EvE, i dont think its for Trek.

We need to remember that not all Trekkies are Gamers, and not all gamers are trekies. I think it would only be like a side quest that would have the end inevitably failing.

Another alternative is on my 30 page beast (link to a link is in Tomalak's Sig) though you might want to skip to the reviews on page 18

[archangel118]

Maybe Warf had relations with a human and the sex was too rough for her?

That would be enough to make me declare war :D

Terrible, just terrible. Remember he already had sex with a half human and she was alright, plus I'm sure he fornicated with a couple human females at one point or another, and it was no big deal. If anything, I could see some crazier human chicks being too rough for him lol :D

[archangel118]

While that would be a great mechanic in something more like EvE, i dont think its for Trek.

We need to remember that not all Trekkies are Gamers, and not all gamers are trekies. I think it would only be like a side quest that would have the end inevitably failing.

Another alternative is on my 30 page beast (link to a link is in Tomalak's Sig) though you might want to skip to the reviews on page 18

Well, as I said, its just hard to accept that after a hundred years of peace, prosperity and a strengthening alliance they would toss it out in 30 years. I just don't see it, I'm assuming Cryptic will end up suggesting something extreme caused it, but thats just a cop out after already copping out by picking the Klingons as the enemy. Like, even if something extreme did happen, they would try their best to resolve the issue, not go to war with each other. Even if it was a Fed pilot shooting at a Klingon freighter, I'm sure they'd work it out and it wouldn't lead to war. I just can't see any reasonable explanations for it, even the idea of the Romulans coming closer with the Feds. That might strain relations but not lead to war. Anyways, we'll see what happens.

[Arcturus]

No no see we're at war with the Klingons because Star Trek VI and everything thereafter was just a holodeck program that never really happened...:eek:

[Gherick]

BAH!

I will tell you what happened.

It's all MY fault!

During a victory party over dead Romulans, I personally caught a drunk Federation Admiral actually ****ing in a vat of our best bloodwine!

So I pushed him out the airlock and vaporized his distorted, bloated carcass with my main disruptor bank! During the communication from the Federation ship that was parked nearby demanding why, I happily told them it was the best damn target practice I had in years. that I shoot better while drunk.

And their really sexy Betazoid first officer is still chained up in my quarters too. She attacked me when I pushed the Admiral out the airlock, and I accepted the start of our mating ritual. Yeah yeah, she says that wasn't why she attacked me, but I know better! She's MINE now. Worf was right, they are feisty mates when they wrangle with a Klingon!

Things haven't been more fun since!

For the Empire!!!!!

Told you it was all my fault. Ha! Hahahahahahahaha!

[archangel118]

No no see we're at war with the Klingons because Star Trek VI and everything thereafter was just a holodeck program that never really happened...:eek:

OMG it all makes sense now!!! :eek:

[Boone]

Holodeck angle is good, I still like my idea of a Rogue Captain in a Wells Class ship returning to the past and aiding House Duros. :)

[phujitiv]

How close to the real Star Trek lore will Star Trek Online be? I mean, is somebody at Paramount giving permission for the inclusion of bad ties between the Klingons and the Federation? I would think that certain angles need to be cleared. This is a serious issue. I want to play a game that is similar to what I know Star Trek to be. If they are very clever and explain how relations crumbled intelligently, then maybe I could buy into it. Even so, would the happenings in this Star Trek MMO be considered canon and apart of the real Star Trek Universe?

[IanD967]

How close to the real Star Trek lore will Star Trek Online be? I mean, is somebody at Paramount giving permission for the inclusion of bad ties between the Klingons and the Federation? I would think that certain angles need to be cleared. This is a serious issue. I want to play a game that is similar to what I know Star Trek to be. If they are very clever and explain how relations crumbled intelligently, then maybe I could buy into it. Even so, would the happenings in this Star Trek MMO be considered canon and apart of the real Star Trek Universe?

they did say in the webcast that they are sticking to what has already happened and agreeing with the already established cannon but since it is set 30 years in the future they have got the room to work an angle in there and since CBS/paramount have been in talks with them i doubt they would of objected or they would of said something already and we wouldent be hear now discussing why they are at war :)

as for it being classed as cannon....i hope so but we have no idea :)

[Deletham_Tomalak]

I would think it could eventually be called Soft or Semi Hard Cannon. Considering the detail and promised effort being put in it sounds like they will create a truly Trek universe.

[IanD967]

Soft or Semi Hard .

im sorry but is there any other words you can use? because i just think the wrong thoughts when reading that bit :)

[davie1234]

not sure if this has been said before but

in Voyagers last episode End Game , future Janeway story part, the feds and Klingons werent the best of pals

[Boone]

I guess that is a good question, what are they using as canon?

I mean traditionally Canon has only referred to the movies/series themselves not the books and such, but it is clear that they are looking at the books for ideas if not story.

In canon:

Data died sacrificing himself aboard the Scimitar in Nemesis to save the Enterprise. They attempted to download him into B-4 but that was not successful, it is unclear if another attempt could be made.

In books:

Janeway died in the book last November. She was assimilated into the collective. A rescue mission attempted to save her as they were transforming her into a new queen. She died as a result of the failed rescue.

I believe the most likely scenario for failed relations between the Federation and Klingon empire would be House Duros gaining control of the Empire, Worf and his brother either banished or dead. The Enterprise E and Captain Picard (possibly Admiral) killed. Lured to Qu'noS for some reason and then betrayed by Duros.

William Riker in the books commands the USS TItan now, a Luna class ship so he and Troi would survive the destruction of Enterprise. Beverly Crusher transferred to Starfleet Medical at the end of Nemesis. Jordi La Forge would also probably be lost with the Enterprise as I think that was still his assignment, though he could be transferred.

[archangel118]

not sure if this has been said before but

in Voyagers last episode End Game , future Janeway story part, the feds and Klingons werent the best of pals

Yes but that future never happens because Janeway makes it home 20 years earlier, as well that wasn't all the Klingons that was a less than honorable house she was dealing with that likely didn't represent the Empire, but its moot because that future never happened.

[davie1234]

Yes but that future never happens because Janeway makes it home 20 years earlier, .

ahhh thats also true

well played sir

[IanD967]

Yes but that future never happens because Janeway makes it home 20 years earlier, as well that wasn't all the Klingons that was a less than honorable house she was dealing with that likely didn't represent the Empire, but its moot because that future never happened.

yeah it was just some rouge house that dealt like with dodgy dealings and the black market but again a said in the above quote, pointless since it doesnt exist anymore

[Father_Origin]

Some drunk Fed diplomat cracked a joke about some high
end officials daughter.


lol.........who knows, maybe the klingons were bored.

[Deletham_Tomalak]

im sorry but is there any other words you can use? because i just think the wrong thoughts when reading that bit :)

O my god...I am sorry about that...:eek:

Well ST:O could either be considered soft cannon or...damn it I have nothing to replace semi hard with :(

[IanD967]

nah if the Klingons were bored they would or started a fight with the Rommies and not Federation plus all of that space on the other side of the empire :)

[IanD967]

O my god...I am sorry about that...:eek:

Well ST:O could either be considered soft cannon or...damn it I have nothing to replace semi hard with :(

no need to apologise :D and you could replace it with "partial" since if it is soft or...god im gonna have to say it myself >.<....hard cannon it would still be cannon :p

[FH_NCC_1701_G]

Cast your mind back to the end of TNG . Who knows maybe Star Fleet refitted the Enterprise D and now its out and about with Admiral Riker at the conn .

[ob1klone]

Polaron, your astute description of how the Federation and Klingon Empire were on the best of terms after the Dominion War is exactly what confuses me about Cryptic's STO. How could things deteriorate when Martok was Chancellor AND Worf was the Federation Ambassador to Kronos?

Any explanation Cryptic offers will not be enough in my eyes. The Star Trek writers and creators were pushing towards a complete merging of the Klingon Empire and the Federation, but since Cryptic needed to put PvP into this game they decided to throw all of that out the window. It's a cop-out and extremely disappointing. Any other species outside of the Federation would have made more sense than the Klingons. It's ridiculous and I don't like it.

Anything can happen. Look at our own world. Not 10 years ago, the USA was still the most highly respected nation in the world. Today we are one of the lowest respected. It just goes to show you how much dammage one administration can do in such a short amount of time.

[vp21ct]

My theory 2

After the Dominion War the quadrant is in dissaray, the federation moves in to help reestablish order in mnay of the governments that have been affected by the war or any other calamity (an exeption is made to the prime directive in the case of the many Civil wars poping up).

The Klingons, for a time, alow the federation to do this, as they took the brunt of the damage (you know, aside from the Cardassians) however roughly 10 years after the Dominion War, the klingons begin to notice that many worlds helped by the Federation soon after become member worlds.

Then when the Cardassians begin to have serios talks about joining the federation, the klingnons make their move. they attack the Cardassian Union and sweep through their worlds. Without a Military to fight them with the cardasssians seem doomed. Then the Federation begins to "lend"ships to the Cardassians, and the war reaches a stale mate. Then when the romulan Civil war (isn't it inevitable) dies down the federation moves to assist them.

The klingons, aware that they could not do to the Star Empire what they did to the Cardassians, invade the Gamma quadrant, and begin an attack on the weakened Dominion, starting with the complete destruction of the Great Link.

The federation declares war on the klinongs, both for starting a war with what is now supossed to be a neutral entity, as well as comiting the worst of war crimes: Xenocide.

Just another idea that entered my head

[KO_Gilligan]

I think the Klingons just got sick of the way the Federation likes to decorate things.
It was just a little too much "Flip This House" on the Klingon Homeworld

[spokechecker5000]

this was one point that confused me also. Klingons seem to live for a long time just look at DS9's Kore or Kang or Kolath Jadzia Dax in trials and tribble-ations noted that kolath would have been in his prime all the way back in the TOS era. it sounds like Klingons have long life spans and further we know that Worf nor Chancellor Martak were that old. The argument for thier assasination would be a good reason for the Federation & the Klingon empires to be at war being that Worf was a federation Ambasador to Quo 'nos (spelling?) but these were suppose to be Epic warriors each, I can't imagine it being that simple.

[vp21ct]

this was one point that confused me also. Klingons seem to live for a long time just look at DS9's Kore or Kang or Kolath Jadzia Dax in trials and tribble-ations noted that kolath would have been in his prime all the way back in the TOS era. it sounds like Klingons have long life spans and further we know that Worf nor Chancellor Martak were that old. The argument for thier assasination would be a good reason for the Federation & the Klingon empires to be at war being that Worf was a federation Ambasador to Quo 'nos (spelling?) but these were suppose to be Epic warriors each, I can't imagine it being that simple.

Well it might. Send pirates in Federation or Klingon ships after their private vessels. i imagine that even Martok couldn't beet 10 fed ships on his own

[Acidrain]

Iam rather disturbed by this, though we do know that the fleets battling the dominion have been destroyed according to books and i would assume that this would mean that the federation is on the brink of falling apart as they were attacked at earth. As well, would this also allow for many ships that have been placed in boneyards to be brought back including many of the defiant class and further back just to maintain the federation shortly after the dominion war and we don't know the status of the dominion unless you read the books. If you look at current time, the US places many old planes within boneyards if they are ever needed for a world war again, including at least 300+ naval ships that could all be back into service rather quickly. So, who is to say that the federation didn't have something like this and had to use experimental ships, warships in yards and the list goes on. This could allow for the usage of some of the ships we all love and know, again iam confused by the direction that cryptic is taking this.

[vp21ct]

(sigh) read the whole thread plze, or at least the last few of them....we have some interesting theorys

[Acidrain]

(sigh) read the whole thread plze, or at least the last few of them....we have some interesting theorys

Yeah, some good theories which area also along what i was thinking as well. Forgive me some of these long threads sometimes go off in another area and get hard to read. So, thanks for the heads up and i do appreciate your theory and its a very good possibility.

[vp21ct]

Yeah, some good theories which area also along what i was thinking as well. Forgive me some of these long threads sometimes go off in another area and get hard to read. So, thanks for the heads up and i do appreciate your theory and its a very good possibility.

I'm thinking of making a thread that would in esscence be a compilation of all the more interesting threads ive seen, the first page would be devoted to describing the conclussions made in these threads, updates would need to be very common tho.

[MajorD]

Iam rather disturbed by this, though we do know that the fleets battling the dominion have been destroyed according to books and i would assume that this would mean that the federation is on the brink of falling apart as they were attacked at earth.
Going by canon, the Dominion was convinced to leave, and considering the apparent growth of the Federation's fleet, they were probably left stronger than ever, like the US after World War II. Early in the Dominion War, the majority of ships were Excelsiors and Mirandas, with a smattering of Galaxy's. By the end, it was all newer ships, such as the Akira, Steamrunner, Saber, and many more Galaxy class ships, with the fleet over a thousand strong by the time the Dominion took DS9.

Maybe they would put those ships into boneyards, but I don't see that it matters. In Star Trek, we've seen that designs, the Miranda and Excelsior, can be used for over a century, Klingons have used the same basic designs for at least three centuries. In comparison to that, 30 years is nothing, so we'll definitely see ships like the Defiant, which are still relatively new to us now.

[outcast341]

You guys are focusing on the wrong show for this discussion. If you remember the last episode of TNG "All Good Things", Worf was a governor and the Klingon Empire was seen as hostile again. If was not the case Picard would not have needed to ask for Worf's help to go into Klingon Space. If you want to maintain the timeline, things would have to get shakey! Those issues had already been set in stone by the writers, regardless of the war with the Dominon. What Picard did in that episode was that he stop the anomaly and did not change the direction of political history. This is cannon, and this why it must remain.

[archangel118]

Wrong. That was an alternate timeline. The whole point of that episode was to show what could have happened if humans had acted in a different manner than they did. It was Q's trial of humanity, which Picard passed by having all three Enterprise crews sacrifice themselves which collapsed the anomaly. Due to that, Q states that the timeline will now unfold in a different direction than the one Picard experienced where they were at war with the Klingons. Thus, the episode stated that things were not going to turn out as they had. So the war with the Klingons never was inscribed in canon. Maybe you should have watched the episode a little closer.

[SovWell]

Folks dont get down and dirty on this, after the game comes out ... I expect to have other races as factions to play. Not just federation and Klingons, and who knows maybe again ... there will be peace. And the new enemy to fight :-)

[Lugh]

Polaron, your astute description of how the Federation and Klingon Empire were on the best of terms after the Dominion War is exactly what confuses me about Cryptic's STO. How could things deteriorate when Martok was Chancellor AND Worf was the Federation Ambassador to Kronos?

Any explanation Cryptic offers will not be enough in my eyes. The Star Trek writers and creators were pushing towards a complete merging of the Klingon Empire and the Federation, but since Cryptic needed to put PvP into this game they decided to throw all of that out the window. It's a cop-out and extremely disappointing. Any other species outside of the Federation would have made more sense than the Klingons. It's ridiculous and I don't like it.

All this ASSUMES that the Klingons as a WHOLE would accept the liberal mamby pamby BS that Martok was fond of spouting and wouldn't want to go back to the days of Glory...

Some of their Houses have Grudges that go back to the Capt. Kirk era that they likely feel have never been redressed properly..

[MajorD]

My issue with the whole thing is that its taken over a hundred years for the Klingons and Federation to get this close and develop these close ties, don't you guys think that both sides would maybe fight a little harder to preserve an alliance that has generally been beneficial to both? I mean, yeah they've had spats, but they've always managed to work through them and its always resulted in stronger ties between them. It just doesn't make much sense to me that after 100 years they would just let them become so strained in 30 that they are on the brink of war. I just don't see it, the Federation especially would be likely to try everything to maintain strong ties with the Klingons because its good for both races. I realize that Klingons like to fight and thus would want a good opponent, but why not choose someone like the Hirogen or something, instead of your closest ally. Especially when said ally has fought side by side with you against the greatest threat posed to the Alpha quadrant, as well as helped improve the empire. Anyways, I just think its a bit of a cop out, as someone said, like beating a dead horse. Why not come up with something new instead of resorting to the same old standby enemy of the Federation. Its just, well, kind of boring really. Its used up. I was hoping for a new threat, not the same one we've seen since the beginning. I would be willing to accept the civil war idea, as thats about the only way I see something like this happening, but even then its selling Trek a little short. I'll still play the game of course, but I can't help but be disappointed to see them using the same old enemy.
First, they haven't really been working on peace for a century, in TNG we saw an alternate reality where the Federation was at war with the Klingons. In "All Good Things...", we see the Federation and Klingons in a hostile political situation, that it is an alternate future matters little, since it shows us the possibility for that tension exists. In DS9, the Klingons and Federation were in open warfare over the Klingons invading Cardassian space and I think to some extent over them not giving up Cardassian planets the they captured.

Polaron, your astute description of how the Federation and Klingon Empire were on the best of terms after the Dominion War is exactly what confuses me about Cryptic's STO. How could things deteriorate when Martok was Chancellor AND Worf was the Federation Ambassador to Kronos?
The examples I give above show us that hostility can rise between the Federation easily, and how it can easily rise. The DS9 example is best, in it, the Khitomer Accords had been abandoned after the Federation refused to help in the invasion of Cardassian space. After that, the Klingons acted more hostilely toward its neighbors for a year, ending in a brief Klingons-Federation war. It turned out Martok was a changeling impostor and that he was encouraging Gowron in that heightened aggressiveness, except that means it was still Gowron going ahead with it, and the council going along as well. Even after Gowron, finds out he was being manipulated by a Changling pretending to be Martok, he says that even if he wanted to stop the war with the Federation, there was no way he could, because no other Klingons would want to stop. That shows the Klingons don't care about the peace and that manipulation wasn't required to heighten hostilities, only encouragement was needed and for the Federation to show it was willing to avoid a fight. That is very much the opposite of how the Klingon-Federation war in the alternate TNG reality was avoided, a single act of honorable sacrifice was enough to convince the Klingons not to make war with the Federation.

I actually think Klingon vs. Fed makes more sense than most people give it credit for. Both sides are classic enemies not because of a violent past (though there have been some really bad incidents) like Klingon vs. Romulans, but because of incompatible societies. I don't like the notion that the Enterprise writers proposed that the Klingons would join the Federation some time in the 26th century because of the stark and uncompromisable values both cultures hold dear. I agree with many of the posters on this board that Klingon society relies on expansion in order to survive, and being that the given medium is space, this allows for theoretically infinite expansion. However, this expansion is also caused by a need for natural resources which leads them into direct confrontation with their neighbors. Klingon culture is built on this competitive notion so much that violence is often the preferred method of competition, which is a huge contrast to the feds whose society is based on diplomacy and space-age socialism. There was a short window of time during the DS9 era where the writters tried to make the Klingons more agreeable to the Federation (Warm and fuzzy restaurant owners singing bad klingon opera to their patrons), but many of the fans felt having there be non-warrior Klingons to run against what made the Klingons cool in the first place, ie: their warrior culture. Now, this doesn't mean they have to be at war, of even enemies all the time, it just means that the two empires will never settle their differences with each other without compromising every ideal that each society is based upon.
I think the Klingon restaurateur was a good character, he rounded out the Klingon culture, since up to that point it seemed as if the Klingons were all soldiers. Enterprise furthered this when Archer was put on trial in a Klingon court. His Klingon lawyer told him the militaristic culture, with its obsession with honor (or maybe specifically honor in battle), was something that wasn't always the case, and rhetorically asks Archer if he actually thought all Klingons were warriors. It tells us the Klingons may not have always been quite so hostile.

I liked the comment concerning the Klingons joining the Federation in the 26th century, because it indicated a mellowing I thought was occurring, and perhaps a remilitarization of the Starfleet. Despite me agreeing that the Klingons could easily start hostilities with the Federation at the drop of a hat, considering TOS and the movies, the Klingons were mellowing out because they had stopped their subtle and not so subtle aggressive tendencies toward the Federation. After so many centuries, a gradual swing away from viewing the warrior and battle as the most honorable things in life would be a good change, and not so weird. Even with the Klingons preparing for war with the Federation, in Star Trek Online, I could see that change happening for the very reason that it is the Federation the Klingons are getting ready to fight. Martok and Worf know the Federation has honor, and that Starfleet are powerful warriors, but that ability and honor are easily clouded in Klingon eye's because Klingons apply it so differently. Martok and Worf won't be able to stop that war, if it comes to it, but I can see them trying to influence greater respect and understanding for Federation honor, through the acceptance of honor outside combat. Worf woudl be at the front of anything like that, thanks to his unique life, serving in a military organization with so many personnel who couldn't possibly be considered warriors, or would at most call themselves warriors second. Picard, disdained military preparation, despite seeing the use for it, even so, Worf had great respect for Picard, even though Picard thought of himself as a diplomat first, then an explorer, then an archeologist, then several other things, and finally a protector of the Federation, probably not even a warrior.

Wrong. That was an alternate timeline. The whole point of that episode was to show what could have happened if humans had acted in a different manner than they did. It was Q's trial of humanity, which Picard passed by having all three Enterprise crews sacrifice themselves which collapsed the anomaly. Due to that, Q states that the timeline will now unfold in a different direction than the one Picard experienced where they were at war with the Klingons. Thus, the episode stated that things were not going to turn out as they had. So the war with the Klingons never was inscribed in canon. Maybe you should have watched the episode a little closer.
The episode reinforces how shaky relations with the Klingons really are. Just because that future reality won't happen now, doesn't mean it was unrealistic, quite the opposite, nor impossible in all details. In fact, almost all of that future could still happen, with the only exception being Riker cannot command the refitted Enterprise-D.

B-4 was an obvious cop out, to allow Data a way to return, if wanted. While Diana Troi can still die. Most importantly, Worf has become Klingon Ambasador, just as in the future where his son traveled back in time to prevent Worf's future death, a future that that happened before the "All Good Things..." anomaly had been eliminated. We also know Worf gained entry into Gowron's house, which allows Worf to eventually become governor, as in "All Good Things...".

[outcast341]

Wrong. That was an alternate timeline. The whole point of that episode was to show what could have happened if humans had acted in a different manner than they did. It was Q's trial of humanity, which Picard passed by having all three Enterprise crews sacrifice themselves which collapsed the anomaly. Due to that, Q states that the timeline will now unfold in a different direction than the one Picard experienced where they were at war with the Klingons. Thus, the episode stated that things were not going to turn out as they had. So the war with the Klingons never was inscribed in canon. Maybe you should have watched the episode a little closer.

I will go back and rewatch and will comment again later.

[bradley1701]

Even if the Khitomer Accords have failed, what about the Organian Peace Treaty?

Startrek.com defines the Organians as this:

"Planet: Organia. On first appearance, a simple agrarian humanoid race that had no significant advancements for over 10,000 years. On stardate 3198.4, the true nature of the Organians revealed an extremely advanced civilizations of noncorporeal beings, having developed beyond their physical bodies a millennia ago, and who merely created the physical appearance of a simplistic culture for the benefit of the corporeal life-forms that visit. The Organians are responsible for the Organian Peace Treaty in 2267, which is responsible for peace between the Federation and the Klingon Empire until the two allied many years later. "

During "Errand of Mercy" the Klingons declared war against the Federation. The Organians, an advanced speciies (almost Q like in powers) forced peace upon the Klingons and the Federation with their peace treaty. If this is the case, how will STO explain why the Organians are no longer enforcing this treaty? Especially considering their world is on the borders between Klingon and Fed space and is apparently the only class M world within a certain vacinity which makes it an important strategic point to the defence of the border...which is why the Enterprise and the Klingon fleet were fighting over it in Errand of Mercy.

Ideas?

[Azurian]

I thought it was hinted that the Organian's mysteriously disappeared. So if they were gone (due to this "anicent threat"?) then they can't enforce the peace.

[WinterPark1701]

Fast forward to Star Trek Online. Relations have deteriorated over the past thirty years to the point that pretty much open war seems to be taking place (only way to rationalize PvP between the two groups, I think). What happened? What took place to cause these two formerly staunch allies to start shooting at each other again?

Same thing that happens in real life, freinds become enemys, enemys become freinds. Look at history. We've been freinds and enemy with Germany, Japan, Iraq, Iran, Russia. It all just depends on whats going on and we go back an forth. I mean we supported Iraq for many years then we're bombing the crap out of them. Same thing with the Klingons.

[Banaticus]

It's like England joining the European Union. They only did it after years of bickering, they're still keeping their money separate and if the economic climate goes sour they just might pull out of the EU altogether.

[bradley1701]

Neither of those comparisons apply to this situation in Trek though. The Organians forced the Federation and Klingons into peace by completely immobilizing their fleets. If you watch the TOS episode "Errand of Mercy" then you will understand where I am coming from...I understand that relations can break down between governments? But in this case, it didn't matter...the Feds and Klingons were still enemies, they just didn't have any choice in the matter....they either made peace or the Organians would render their fleets and weapons useless forever.

Check out the episode ;)

[WinterPark1701]

Neither of those comparisons apply to this situation in Trek though. The Organians forced the Federation and Klingons into peace by completely immobilizing their fleets. If you watch the TOS episode "Errand of Mercy" then you will understand where I am coming from...I understand that relations can break down between governments? But in this case, it didn't matter...the Feds and Klingons were still enemies, they just didn't have any choice in the matter....they either made peace or the Organians would render their fleets and weapons useless forever.

Check out the episode ;)

I've seen it (actully watched the DVD today) but the Organinans seem to be pretty limited in their power as the Dominion War killed a whole lotta people and they didn't really seem to mind. The Klingons have been our freinds as they were during the war and they've been our eneimes as they were druing the other war. I mean the Organians didn't do anything during the war between the feddys and the klingons before the start of the Dominion war, I'd suggest that current technology is immune to the effects of the Organinans.

[Skaeggbiffen]

Anything can happen while dealing with Klingons.... Before the dominion war the feds and the kligonzs where at war.

The first thought that occurs me is that Martok is off the hook.. he probably went 6 - feet under while playing with his targ or something of the like.. I means check out Gowron for example.. he was the ideal klingon and did not give a flying f*** about who his friends or foes where. 30 Years does that to you , cheers.

[Rakkis]

Actually i couild see this whole thing starting from the romulans.... they have always been able to stage some sort of event that forces the Klingons to distrust the federation. And from there it takes just one Klingon with their since of honor to retalliate on the feds, then boom chain reaction occures that send klingons and federation into a cold war...

[Haegemon]

Synopsis from the book made by Tre'gok <<Klingon je ra'ta'ghach mu'mey' vo' Dominion veS Daq DaHjaj>> translated to English.

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THE KLINGON HIGH COUNCIL FROM DOMINION WAR TO PRESENT


This book details all key events that happened after those glorious times when the Klingon warriors fought for honor and the Empire. From the High Council most controversial desicions to the present fight between tradition and anti-tradition.


...When Martok reach the power, he with the cooperation of the Emperor, which was born to be the reincarnation of Khales, fought to reinstall the honor and pride to the whole empire, while pushing for a more fair rules on it.

Keeping a foot in the post-war Cardasia, Martok left aside the natural warmongerism from Klingon Empire and keept its attention to the problems inside its frontiers, the remains of a war:
Millions of injured warriors, millions of displaced commoners, rogue warriors and lack of resources which were part diverted to the war effort, and part lost due to Cardassia and Dominion invasion.

Being himself the farmer's son and using its influence as its battle honors, abolished the privileges of noble houses and promoted veterans from the Dominion war which surfaced from others by its honorability, trust and sense of justice to the highest council, while tightening relations with the UFP. No doubt that Ambassador Worf had a great part in it being its war comrade, personal friend, and also UFP ambassador in Q'nos.

Times goes by...as always. New voices arise and old ones fall deep. After decades of prosperity the old arguments of Martok don't appeal to youngsters flesh of blood and glory which grew whith the legends of old wars. Federation, Cardassia, Dominion, the same ones which forged old heroes as Martok himself now were feeding a movement against all that he had done.

The "god-living" Emperor pased away and an aged Martok couldn't do so much to stop the step back. In this clima where social tensions arised, some noble houses used the young appeal for past glory to return to old traditions while recovering their privileges....


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