The best ships should be limited and awarded to those that deserve them

[Kellir]

We should not see the game full of the biggest and baddest ship one year from now. I would hope those ships would be limited in numbers and awarded to those Captains that have earned them.

Ways to earn one of the best ships.

Be a group leader that tends to win.
Tend to win at PVP
Diplomacy
Who discovers the most space
Makes more first contacts
Do lots and lots of missions
Do lots and lots of crafting
Mixture of all.

Each time you do something you will get points. Those points will be shown in some sort of leader board.

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The only way I could see it working is if something was implemented such that maybe those that have achieved the rank of Admiral are eligible to be captain of the Federation's flagship (or some other perk ship) for a couple weeks, and once that time is up, the ship rotates to another Admiral, etc. In this case, rank and random chance would be the only factors for eligibility, and not how many hours one plays.

hmm, that may work.

What happens to a Captain without no ship? He can not level anymore doing "menial" things? That would stink.

You missed the point. I said there should be a limited number of the most powerful ships. There would still be plenty of 2nd best ships for everybody.

This post is just another way of saying, 'i want epic items' isn't it.

No, I am saying that there should not be 100,000 of the best ships in the game after 1 year of playing. There was never 100,000 of the best ships in any of the the movies or shows. Not sure on this but I think there was only 13 to 15 of the best ships in the TV shows.

Earlier in the thread people spoke of PvP as a way to advance....wouldn't it be logical that Federation players who avoided conflict or made self sacrifices would be seen as better officers in the peace loving federation guide lines.

That's why this game is unique, each side has different values, so a system of 'leveling' would be different for both. Klingons prefer warriors, Federation prefers explorers.

Very true, So Positive and Negative stats based on race would be needed?

[Tuvya]

We should not see the game full of the biggest and baddest ship one year from now. I would hope those ships would be limited in numbers and awarded to those Captains that have earned them.

Ways to earn one of the best ships.

Be a group leader that tends to win.
Tend to win at PVP
Do lots and lots of missions
Do lots and lots of crafting
Mixture of all.

Each time you do something you will get points. Those points will be shown in some sort of leader board.

PvP should not be a focus that gets you anything you can't get from questing.

Crafting is a yawnfest designed to fill the time of someone with limited brain activity, or a bot, and too much time on their hand.

And yes missions should advance you somehow, but the game should not be designed as a grindfest so lots of missions shouldn't mean regrinding the same quests 1000 times to get the "ubership drop".

[keozen]

Crafting is a yawnfest designed to fill the time of someone with limited brain activity, or a bot, and too much time on their hand.
.

That's just your opinion.
There are many people who enjoy crafting. I used to run my own mini business empire on SWG, it was fun :)

[CaptainQuirk]

My question is, what criteria do you use to determing who deserves something and who does not.

Typically, I see this kind of thing a lot in a variety of MMOs. And it is usually the hardcore players who wish to impose "merrit restrictions". They say things like "I work my butt off, putting in ten hours a day on this game. I deserve to get [insert perk here] before some casual player who only plays one hour a day.

I call these people the "gimme gimme" crowd. They act as if their $15 per month is worth more than other people's. Nobody forces them to play ten hours a day. Obviously, they enjoy the game and have a lot of time on their hands.

The fact that some casual players only have one hour a day to devote to personal entertainment, which they choose to apply to the MMO in question, doesn't seem to register with the gimme gimme crowd, who often says things like, "If you want it bad enough, noob, work for it like I did!"

EXCUSE ME!

It's a game. People play games as a diversion from work and real life concerns. I would say that those who play for ten hours or more a day, and equate their game activities as "working", should probably consider getting a job that requires actually going in to an office and putting in 8 to ten hours a day, where they would be written up or fired if they are caught playing a game on company time. They may find that they fall into the same bracket as the one they would call a "noob" for wanting to be able to get the same content as anyone else on the grounds that they pay the same monthly fee.

And actually, the gimme gimme crowd is in the minority, yet they pitch very loud temper tantrums, and are actually, in many cases, the reason why many MMOs have yet to emerge from the perceived need to grind mind-numbingly through levels.

In another MMO community, I advocates a system whereby each day, any player may move up to the next advancement rung, or obtain their next ability. This would not be cumulative, so someone couldn't play one day, skip nine days and then advance nine rungs or obtain nine abilities. Every day they play, they get one merrit point to spend.

The casual players who responded to that concept supported it. But almost invarriably, the hardcore gimme gimme crowd rejects it saying that their gameplay would be "gated" and that if they are willing to put in the hours, they ought to be able to get rewarded for it. Well, I would say that for the casual gamer, not being able to achieve anything worth while because they don't have a lot of free time on their hands, in a way, gates THEM from being able to enjoy the same things which other players pay the same amount of money for.

[warkie]

We should not see the game full of the biggest and baddest ship one year from now. I would hope those ships would be limited in numbers and awarded to those Captains that have earned them.

Ways to earn one of the best ships.

Be a group leader that tends to win.
Tend to win at PVP
Do lots and lots of missions
Do lots and lots of crafting
Mixture of all.

Each time you do something you will get points. Those points will be shown in some sort of leader board.

we could transplant things from the old prestige system namely the idea that there were different ways to finish a mission if you do it in the best way (avoid confilct or win the conflict with great skill and minimal damage) you get more prestige that could be put in the context of reputation so i suppose it would be a matter of good reputaion minus bad repution equals status in starfleet so if you have completed a fair number of complex/challenging missions in the best way possible and fought well in pvp and gathered a lot of new stuff for starfleet then you will be more likely to be allowed to command the high end stuff

[IanD967]

im sorry but for those who do not have enough time to do all of that would miss out on the ships soooo im not going to agree on this idea.

everyone should get the ship they want to fly (unless it is really old like Constitution class and the others of that era)

[xiphias]

If you pay the $15 a month, you deserve them.

[Kellir]

So we should have a bunch of clones running around in the exact same ships? Skill does not matter? Effort does not matter? Just everybody playing T-Ball and not keeping score.




Commander Riker: "Worf, it's just a game, a friendly little competition. You work up a sweat, you have a few laughs and you make new friends."


Lieutenant Worf: "If winning is not important, then Commander, why keep score?"

[Ciraric]

I tend to agree with the thought that the "better" you do at the game the "better" the ship you get.

However, I'd actually like to put the point across that the ship you get is dependent on the authority you are working for. Therefore, the prestige system has to work into that, to keep realism.

[JFendley]

Well I think there should be rewards from a successful PvP player. And of course there should be comparable rewards for a sucessful PvE player. But who is going to be more well know. The guy who saves you from three NPC ships or the guy who saved you from three Klingon Birds of Prey with real Captains going after you?

[IanD967]

So we should have a bunch of clones running around in the exact same ships? Skill does not matter? Effort does not matter? Just everybody playing T-Ball and not keeping score.



who said that they will?? most fans will pick the powerfull ships (as in brute strengh) wheras from what i have heard it will rely on much more than that because while they are just constantly targetting your hull you (and most players on these boards) will be aiming for the subsystems and soon as their weapons have been taken out then they have nothing left :cool:

but we should talk more on this once we know what the ship classes are (as in the ships from the shows) included.

[Ciraric]

Well I think there should be rewards from a successful PvP player. And of course there should be comparable rewards for a sucessful PvE player. But who is going to be more well know. The guy who saves you from three NPC ships or the guy who saved you from three Klingon Birds of Prey with real Captains going after you?

Frankly, that isn't real PvP. That's faction vs faction.

Real PvP (in my opinion) sucks and shouldn't give you bonuses. Real PvP should just be for fun (or should have it's own point system so that the prestige of "winning" is the the only bonus you get).

[KirksOtherSon]

If you pay the $15 a month, you deserve them.

There's the plain answer, right there.

You pay, you have as much right to the cool stuff as everyone else who pays. Period. End.

Ever notice that people who use the word "deserve" in this way automatically assume that they, themselves, are deserving? And that they already know what others must do to be deserving? :rolleyes:

KOS

[NeedsMoreShatner]

There's the plain answer, right there.

You pay, you have as much right to the cool stuff as everyone else who pays. Period. End.

Ever notice that people who use the word "deserve" in this way automatically assume that they, themselves, are deserving? And that they already know what others must do to be deserving? :rolleyes:

KOS

Exactly.

It's why Blizzard is restructuring their entire raid dynamic for the next expansion. Players want to see the content, so Blizzard is allowing them to do so. And they have a right to that, as paying customers.

[IanD967]

There's the plain answer, right there.

You pay, you have as much right to the cool stuff as everyone else who pays. Period. End.

Ever notice that people who use the word "deserve" in this way automatically assume that they, themselves, are deserving? And that they already know what others must do to be deserving? :rolleyes:

KOS

yeah totally agree. :)

[Ciraric]

Whoa whoa whoa.

I think that the work you do in game should be recognised. You shouldn't be entitled to the "best" stuff right off the bat. They have to have advancements or the game would be boring.

And I say all that being a mediocre player who most likely wouldn't get one of the "best" ships under my own system.

[IanD967]

tbh if you love your starting ship then you should upgrade it so it can compete with the ships available later in the ranks really and that way no-one will have the "best" ship

[phazah]

i would love to be able to get a Sovereign class ship right off the bat since im paying $15 a month...
but i would feel a lot better than I earned the right to fly that ship and not have it handed to me....
just because you can have it, doesnt mean you should have it.....

[IanD967]

i think what he means by that statement is that since he pays $15 per month he shouldent need to kill alot of people, craft alot or <insert thing here> alot just to get one ship. i dont think he means soon as you log in you can pick it

[poganwarrior]

Why can't it be a mixture of paying the $15 or so dollars, and putting the time in? I agree that to get something out of a game you need to put something into it, but that theory is only true to a certain extent. There quite possibly will be a cap to the amount of content you and your ship can benefit from if you only put 1 hour a day into the game. That in itself should not stop you from hoping onto your account looking at your ship and being proud of what you had quested/crafted/grinded/PvP'ed for, even if your gaming time is limited.

~ Mord

[LivingHellfire]

That's just your opinion.
There are many people who enjoy crafting. I used to run my own mini business empire on SWG, it was fun :)

Sure, but the people who're all about the crafting are generally a minority.

I don't care how they reward the best ships, as long as I can get one when I get there. If you do as much of the content as you can by the time you reach the end-game, then you shoudl be able to have access to the ships.

Finishing the content should be the thing that earns you the reward, not grinding for hours and days and weeks, not by crafting the same items in perpetuity, not by doing the same mindless task over and over and over again just to get the "phat loot".

You want to talk about little bonuses and decals and little buffs that give you a slight edge, then fine. I have no problem with rewarding people with stuff like that if they want to put the time in to get it, but don't tell me that I can't have my Sovereign class ship at the end-game simply because I didn't spend enough time in the neutral zone killing pirates over and over and over again to do it.

[NeedsMoreShatner]

Well, yes, you still have to put time in. I put a lot of time into getting my epic flyer. But the point is, once I got what I needed to get that flyer, I didn't have some guild master determining that I wasn't worthy of it. I didn't have to depend on kissing the asses of people I don't know or care about in order to fly the ship that I've earned the right to fly.

That's all I'm saying. I have no problem working for it. I do have a problem with guild politics determining ANYTHING that has to do with my character.

[nsfjunkman]

Do any of you actually play any other MMO's?

Your $15 bucks gets you the same as My $15.

Everyone has the ability to get everything in the game.

No one said that they should get the best right off the bat. I think someone assumed that point and it's blown out of proportion.

The OP DID say that only the ones that play the most should get the best ships and that is just wrong. Because I play less it's just going to take me LONGER to get that big ship just like any other MMO.

Prestige is earned and not deserved. Just cause you grind more doesn't mean you deserve a better ship over someone that is eploring more and taking their time.

We all pay $15 (or 10 or whatever they charge) and we all get what we work for.

[Susarian]

We should not see the game full of the biggest and baddest ship one year from now. I would hope those ships would be limited in numbers and awarded to those Captains that have earned them.

Ways to earn one of the best ships.

Be a group leader that tends to win.
Tend to win at PVP
Do lots and lots of missions
Do lots and lots of crafting
Mixture of all.

Each time you do something you will get points. Those points will be shown in some sort of leader board.

Elitism, no matter what form it takes, is neither fun or profitable. Belay that!

I have faith that Cryptic will make acquiring "the biggest and baddest" ship a fun and accessible feature that is not tied to an excessive time spent doing X or being a "winner".

[Ciraric]

Oh, I see.

In other words, don't limit the number of the best ships... I get it.

[mezlabor]

My question is, what criteria do you use to determing who deserves something and who does not.

Typically, I see this kind of thing a lot in a variety of MMOs. And it is usually the hardcore players who wish to impose "merrit restrictions". They say things like "I work my butt off, putting in ten hours a day on this game. I deserve to get [insert perk here] before some casual player who only plays one hour a day.

I call these people the "gimme gimme" crowd. They act as if their $15 per month is worth more than other people's. Nobody forces them to play ten hours a day. Obviously, they enjoy the game and have a lot of time on their hands.

The fact that some casual players only have one hour a day to devote to personal entertainment, which they choose to apply to the MMO in question, doesn't seem to register with the gimme gimme crowd, who often says things like, "If you want it bad enough, noob, work for it like I did!"

EXCUSE ME!

It's a game. People play games as a diversion from work and real life concerns. I would say that those who play for ten hours or more a day, and equate their game activities as "working", should probably consider getting a job that requires actually going in to an office and putting in 8 to ten hours a day, where they would be written up or fired if they are caught playing a game on company time. They may find that they fall into the same bracket as the one they would call a "noob" for wanting to be able to get the same content as anyone else on the grounds that they pay the same monthly fee.

And actually, the gimme gimme crowd is in the minority, yet they pitch very loud temper tantrums, and are actually, in many cases, the reason why many MMOs have yet to emerge from the perceived need to grind mind-numbingly through levels.

In another MMO community, I advocates a system whereby each day, any player may move up to the next advancement rung, or obtain their next ability. This would not be cumulative, so someone couldn't play one day, skip nine days and then advance nine rungs or obtain nine abilities. Every day they play, they get one merrit point to spend.

The casual players who responded to that concept supported it. But almost invarriably, the hardcore gimme gimme crowd rejects it saying that their gameplay would be "gated" and that if they are willing to put in the hours, they ought to be able to get rewarded for it. Well, I would say that for the casual gamer, not being able to achieve anything worth while because they don't have a lot of free time on their hands, in a way, gates THEM from being able to enjoy the same things which other players pay the same amount of money for.
/signed Couldnt agree more here.

[BreachAndClear]

I don't think they should be limited in number, because then there's the issue of the "best ships" falling into the hands of a select few people that sit at their computers all day, who then get to keep the ship indefinitely. The only way I could see it working is if something was implemented such that maybe those that have achieved the rank of Admiral are eligible to be captain of the Federation's flagship (or some other perk ship) for a couple weeks, and once that time is up, the ship rotates to another Admiral, etc. In this case, rank and random chance would be the only factors for eligibility, and not how many hours one plays.

[xiphias]

That's a really lazy, selfish attitude. Don't play an MMO if that's your opinion. Go play a single player game and use all the cheats. You'll have everything you want right away and be bored as f*ck. Let the rest of us actually play the game.

Whoa whoa whoa, did I say everyone should have everything instantly? No.

Lazy and selfish? How about suggesting that people who don't work for a living, live in their parents' basement and/or are uni students who sleep in a lecture 2 hours per day are entitled to more eventual game content than people who work for a living and don't have ass-grooves in their computer chair.

I never use cheats, cheats are for losers who want instant gratification and move on to a new game every week. I want there to be (non-level based) progression and advancement.

What I don't understand is this mentality that if you devote your life to a game, you should be rewarded and made to feel like in-game royalty by having your uber ships/rankings and whatnot. Personally I'd prescribe a swift kick in the a** followed by an introduction to Mr. Sunlight. Wanting to go outside occasionally and/or having to work should not preclude someone from game content. They're paying the same amount of $$$ you are.

You pay the $15 a month, you deserve them.

[GlassEye]

We should not see the game full of the biggest and baddest ship one year from now. I would hope those ships would be limited in numbers and awarded to those Captains that have earned them.

Ways to earn one of the best ships.

Be a group leader that tends to win.
Tend to win at PVP
Do lots and lots of missions
Do lots and lots of crafting
Mixture of all.

Each time you do something you will get points. Those points will be shown in some sort of leader board.

Ah sorry guy, I don't agree on this at all. You are talking about "top-dog'" which some MMOs adhere to. The impression I get in what you are referring to sounds like winning a grand prize. I don't think that is the kind of game Cryptic had in mind. Most prolly there will be a "sort of" endgame then alot of things you can do with your ships.

All ships, no matter how high the level, should be available to everyone, though they may have to work for them. And being a City Of Heroes player I get a pretty good idea of how their missions are setup. So to get a high class ship would prolly require some group teaming and a very long mission, as in the Task Forces for COH. Chapions Online has not come out yet, so this may also all be a thing of the past. But it still gives a pretty good inkling of how the missions "may" work.

What happens to a Captain without no ship? He can not level anymore doing "menial" things? That would stink.

[Sendric]

If you pay the $15 a month, you deserve them.

/signed I'd rather play in a big sandbox world that did not force me to play a certain style to access content.

[Aogos]

This post is just another way of saying, 'i want epic items' isn't it.

Invariably, the devs have got to provide something for the hardcore or they will leave, I would guess 'powerful pro-type weopons' or 'experimental engines' blah blah. The alternative, restricting ship types, is akin to reducing the number of playable character classes for the casual player. You do that and you'll lose your casual players.

Ultimately, ships are too fundamental to restrict to them to the hardcore.

[Hellpop]

The basic hull class could be available at early levels but whats inside (warp drive/ Phasers/ torpedos/scanners etc.) could be upgraded available as you skill/level/prestige up.

[Pyrometheus]

Oh, I see.

In other words, don't limit the number of the best ships... I get it.


Correct. After all, its the player that matters; not the ship.

Someone who doesn't know how to use the ship they're in to maximize it's strengths and cover it's weaknesses can be bested by a "lesser" ship.

So, since it is the player that matters and not the ship, then it really doesn't matter how any player gets this hypothetical "best" ship.

[bitgolem]

We should not see the game full of the biggest and baddest ship one year from now. I would hope those ships would be limited in numbers and awarded to those Captains that have earned them.

Ways to earn one of the best ships.

Be a group leader that tends to win.
Tend to win at PVP
Do lots and lots of missions
Do lots and lots of crafting
Mixture of all.

Each time you do something you will get points. Those points will be shown in some sort of leader board.

So you're saying all the teener twitches with no life and lots of energy drinks should get all the good content, and us old fogeys who have a job have to get by on the crap ships? I think your parents should take away your computer for a month.

[ngille]

While I agree that certain things need to be "earned" in game I don't think any of the ship classes are one of these. Ship classes should be based on rank, nothing else.

As far as the uber leet hard core players thinking they deserver more out of the game than the casual player, that's just a bunch of crap. As has been mentioned numerous times, we all pay the same amount. Granted by nature the hard core player will have more of the rare items just based off the law of averages (and the loot gods' whims of course) but as they play more, more stuff is dropping, ie more of it will be rare. That's the ONLY advantage I can see that the hardcore player should get.

There seems to be two camps, both at opposite extremes. I think the hard core players (that support the OP) should get over themselves and the 1 hour a day players should realize that sometimes you gotta put in 2 hours to get what you really want.

[Colm]

Same sh*t, different MMO.
I think the real answer to the casual/hardcore player issue would be to have a "pay as long as you play" account, or at least be able to pay just for an hour. But I doubt any MMO maker will go for that, as they make a lot more money with a monthly fee.

[VainEldritch]

We should not see the game full of the biggest and baddest ship one year from now. I would hope those ships would be limited in numbers and awarded to those Captains that have earned them.

Ways to earn one of the best ships.

Be a group leader that tends to win.
Tend to win at PVP
Do lots and lots of missions
Do lots and lots of crafting
Mixture of all.

Each time you do something you will get points. Those points will be shown in some sort of leader board.

It's a tremendously difficult question... on the one hand reards have to be satifying and should require the player to be engaged in the game and encourage them to remain so. On the other hand, make the requirements ofr the "coolest" or most desirable ships too stringent, you cut out the vast majority of players (the largest playerbase section will be casuals playing (way) less than 15 hours per week), and if you alientate them you've lost your most profitable target.

The middle road is of course the road most travelled by developers. EVE Online tried soething a bit different with characters learning at a fixed rate while logged off. This was good as player would always have something do do with character development when thay logged in. In my opinion STO should have something similar but add to that crafting and tecnology requisits for ship components like shields, phasers, torpedoes, damage repair, warp core, auxilliary systems etc, that can be obtained through "quiets", combat and (importantly) exploration.

[Heavensrun]

Whoa whoa whoa, did I say everyone should have everything instantly? No.

Lazy and selfish? How about suggesting that people who don't work for a living, live in their parents' basement and/or are uni students who sleep in a lecture 2 hours per day are entitled to more eventual game content than people who work for a living and don't have ass-grooves in their computer chair.

I never use cheats, cheats are for losers who want instant gratification and move on to a new game every week. I want there to be (non-level based) progression and advancement.

What I don't understand is this mentality that if you devote your life to a game, you should be rewarded and made to feel like in-game royalty by having your uber ships/rankings and whatnot. Personally I'd prescribe a swift kick in the a** followed by an introduction to Mr. Sunlight. Wanting to go outside occasionally and/or having to work should not preclude someone from game content. They're paying the same amount of $$$ you are.

You pay the $15 a month, you deserve them.

You pay the 15$ a month for access to the servers. That is the literal extent of their obligation to you. Every element of the game will be keyed to reward players as they spend more time on the game and whether or not you are able to seize on that opportunity is your own problem.

It's an effective business policy to reward players who have spent more time on a game. However, it is also good to ensure that those who don't -have- as much of that time to spend are able to play and enjoy.

However, that does not mean it is reasonable for you to expect access to everything in the game.

If I only had set aside 10 minuites to play each day, and the average mission required a half-hour of uninterrupted playtime, I couldn't very well complain to the developers that I wasn't able to complete any of the content. There are limits on reasonable expectation.

Suggesting "I -deserve-" because you have paid the same monthly fee exhibits an attitude of unreasonable entitlement. Someone who has spent more time in -addition- to the same moneythen you have has obviously invested more in the game, so would it not be fair to suggest that -they- also -deserve- more?

And, ultimately, there will be trends on which ship is the "best" for PvP or PvE, and you will see -many- of those. I believe what the OP is concerned with is simply that it would break immersion for Starfleet to appear to be composed of large, large numbers of the most powerful, flagship class warships.

[ngille]

Still sounds elitist to mee and I'm against anything that reeks of that term.

As I mentioned in my earlier post I dissagree with either extreme, I think some compromise needs to be made.

[Heavensrun]

Same sh*t, different MMO.
I think the real answer to the casual/hardcore player issue would be to have a "pay as long as you play" account, or at least be able to pay just for an hour. But I doubt any MMO maker will go for that, as they make a lot more money with a monthly fee.

More to the point, it would create an environment in which everyone is checking their watches as they play. Players would feel compelled to log off perhaps as a friend is logging on, not because they have something else to do, or don't want to play with their friend, but because they're low on cash that month, and they had the misfortune to log on at different times. It would hamper the social network of the game, and really change the entire feel. On top of that, you'd see an even greater schism between those with disposable time/income and those without. This kind of thing would be very -bad- for the casual gamer, while affecting the hardcore fan with money to burn the least.

[ReynoldsXD]

/signed I'd rather play in a big sandbox world that did not force me to play a certain style to access content.

http://mirror.servut.us/kuvat/motivation/truth.jpg

[Heavensrun]

Still sounds elitist to mee and I'm against anything that reeks of that term.

As I mentioned in my earlier post I dissagree with either extreme, I think some compromise needs to be made.

I agree. The best option is to offer rewards that are accessible for all, while still offering good opportunities for hardcore players to benefit from the time they've invested.

Of course, what constitute fair is entirely subjective right now, since we don't even have any solid knowledge of how the game's reward scheme will break down, or whether or not the "best ships" will be desirable for situations outside of combat, or how desirable combat rewards will be versus mission or exploration rewards...

[Varrangian]

The problem with this is that it seems to assume there should be a linear progression of what the "best" ship is. I hate games the progress to one "goal" rather than multiple goals. I certainly hope Cryptic knows that this sort of linear progression is leads to isolating those who do not solely min/max.

[demonic25]

No i'd rather everyone be able to get all the ships through hard work and graft!...not just limit it to special rewards or whatever.....basically aslong as everyone has the ability to get all the ships i'm all cool :)

[starbuck1771]

We should not see the game full of the biggest and baddest ship one year from now. I would hope those ships would be limited in numbers and awarded to those Captains that have earned them.

Ways to earn one of the best ships.

Be a group leader that tends to win.
Tend to win at PVP
Do lots and lots of missions
Do lots and lots of crafting
Mixture of all.

Each time you do something you will get points. Those points will be shown in some sort of leader board.


Well the game shouldnt be full of selfcentered PvPer's either.

[Iwulff]

Well you should have ships with different qualities. Sovereign type ships are good all rounders, whilst Akira's and Defiant are based on lots of attack power and less defense. Then you can say that a Galaxy type or some other class, has excellent shields but weaker weapons. Just an example, but it shows how a solution might be build.

It might also be possible to make the smaller ships, more maneuverable and faster in combat. Why shouldn't a Defiant be able to defeat a Sovereign, when he has more skill and is avoiding enemy weapons fire?


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Either they use the method in combat, to select enemy ship and then selecting attack types or skills, etc.. like in Wow and GW.

Or they use more real combat, with aiming and avoiding stuff. I definitely prefer this one, but can it be done?

[Roka]

We should not see the game full of the biggest and baddest ship one year from now. I would hope those ships would be limited in numbers and awarded to those Captains that have earned them.

Ways to earn one of the best ships.

Be a group leader that tends to win.
Tend to win at PVP
Do lots and lots of missions
Do lots and lots of crafting
Mixture of all.

Each time you do something you will get points. Those points will be shown in some sort of leader board.

As a player that will only be able to play accasionally, I am whole heartedly against this.

[NeoWolf]

If you pay the $15 a month, you deserve them.

Couldnt agree more

We are afterall ALL going to be paying for the same opportunities within our own preferred style of play PVE or PVP.

Besides its not as much about what ship your in as so much as it is "What" you do with it.

Irrespective of what some women may say :D bigger does not necessarily equate to Better.. :p

also from a Federation standpoint at least do you honestly think how much you have killed or Replicated would equate to meaning anything? "But Admiral Kirk has destroyed 50 D-7 cruisers this month.. we simply MUST give him a shiny new Ship, what is the best we have?"

If you get a bigger ship it should because you have earnt it by serving your faction.. doing missions of all types and earnign a sufficient enough rank and standing to warrunt it.

[Sythian]

So we should have a bunch of clones running around in the exact same ships? Skill does not matter? Effort does not matter? Just everybody playing T-Ball and not keeping score.




Commander Riker: "Worf, it's just a game, a friendly little competition. You work up a sweat, you have a few laughs and you make new friends."


Lieutenant Worf: "If winning is not important, then Commander, why keep score?"

It's an MMO, who is keeping score.

Further more, who said that one ship is better than another.

[ieldanth]

This entire discussion assumes a 'tiered' ship system, with certain ships outclassing others. If this is the case, then it makes sense for the stronger ships to be unavailable to your average ensign. In any navy, the top brass isn't going to be handing out the biggest, baddest ships like candy, if for no other reason than cost.

However, this doesn't mean that smaller ships don't have a place or that your experience is somehow hampered because you are assigned to, say, a frigate. There are all flavors of ships from the lowliest garbage scow to the mightiest battle cruiser. All have a purpose in the real world, why not in game as well? Make the smaller ships have fewer weapons or shields, but be more nimble or faster. Larger ships would have more weapons and more slots for stuff, but would be slower or less maneuverable.

You are going to hate me for this suggestion, but how about you have to pay for your ship somehow and if your ship is destroyed, you have to buy a new one. "Oh, so you got your Sovereign destroyed in the Neutral Zone? Well, sorry, but you only seem to have enough (prestige/credit/rep) for this Grissom over here..."

[Admiral_Soth]

My only problem with rewards to limited items is that it rewards the successful cheaters as well. As long as everything is eventually available, then the cheaters are merely accelerating how long they have to wait as opposed to preventing others from achieving the rewards as well.

[CaptainQuirk]

I didnt need to read the other pages. This explains why you shouldn't do this. End game and end of discussion me thinks. F**kin` A!!!!

I have played enough MMOs to recognize veiled support of elitism when I see it.

The end result for awarding one group simply because they have more time to play than another group with less time, both groups composed of people who are equally enthusiastic about the MMO in question and both groups paying the same fee.

I say let there be a merrit and demerrit system in place. A successful mission should result in a merrit point. An aborted mission results in no merrit or demerrit. A failed mission results in a demerrit. At the end of the Every 24 hours, if there are more merrits than demerrits, the player's ship gets a prestige point. Prestige points would allow a player to qualify for better ships or be able to recruit better crew members

If there are more demerrits than merrits, the player's ship loses a prestige point.

Prestige can never go below zero.

All it takes is having more merrits than demerrits within 24 hours. So a casual player can run one mission successfully and log off and he gets 1 prestige point. A hardcore player can run 10 missions, fail 4 and succeed at 6 and come out with 1 prestige points... In a way, the more missions a player runs.

A 24-hr cycle begins the instant a player starts a mission. If the cycle concludes before the completion, abortion or failure of a mission, that current mission's merrit or demerrit applies to a new cycle.

[eNDIE]

Just make it so everybody can get it its just gonna take longer if you are casual. If the "hardcores needs their 15 of fame":)

[archangel118]

I don't have anything to say in regards to how much time earns what ships, etc, I'm sure Cryptic will ensure that there is a system in place so that you do have to earn the ships, just not based on grinding, as they did say they don't want to have grinding in this game. My issue with everyone eventually gaining access to high end ships, ie Sovereign class, is that it kind of ruins the ST universe. The whole thing in ST was that only the best of the best earned the right to fly the best ships, ie Picard commanding the Enterprise E Sovereign class, the flagship of the fleet, which was a rare class. From what I remember, only a few Sovereigns were ever built, simply because of the resource cost to build them, and thus the vessels were limited to captains who had earned the rights to fly them. I'm not saying this should be based on grinding, but for me it would ruin the universe if after a year everyone has a sovereign class ship, they are supposed to be awe inspiring sights when they fly into battle, not something everyone has. I think the prestige system is the way to go, where you earn the prestige to fly such a ship, and its based on your service record. Anyways, I'm sure they'll have a system in place so that everyone gets what they desire. I look forward to the game and trust Cryptic to do a good job. I really want my Defiant class :p

[Kinjiru]

So we should have a bunch of clones running around in the exact same ships? Skill does not matter? Effort does not matter? Just everybody playing T-Ball and not keeping score.

The key to that is to make the ships mod-able, so that each has upgrade capabilities, and none besides the starter ship are forced into being obsolete from a gameplay perspective. This can be done by varying a ship's inherent strengths and weaknesses, and the strengths and weaknesses of whatever upgrades are possible, and keeping them relevant to an individual player's preference.

Some players like fast moving scout ships, some like battlewagons... they should all have a role to play.

[Q_Who]

Lets hope that if you can't earn one, the JP and Korean gold farmers can't get you one either. I hope there isn't a system of $$ on this game. Its Star Trek for gods sake.

[Aogos]

Still sounds elitist to mee and I'm against anything that reeks of that term.

As I mentioned in my earlier post I dissagree with either extreme, I think some compromise needs to be made.


I agree entirely here, but lets be fair the hardcore players are by definetion ones with very few commitments in real life and thats why their life is in game. By default they tend to be the most passionate about the game, because it is their enitre freetime life, and so generally, more vocal on the forum boards. The boards however, don't reflect what goes on in game. How often have we heard forum posts moaning about nerfs and boons that are totallu unbalancing game wrong, and yet the developers keep them going.

The bottomline is developers are making games to make money and casual players outnumber hardcore hundreds to one. Look at WoW, 10,000,000 subs, how many are hardcore? I don't know but it's certainly no where near 10,000,000. Developers won't cater exclusively for hardcore it's financial suicide. In this particular case, it's like not offering certain character classes to casual players and that just won't happen

[no-one]

If you pay the $15 a month, you deserve them.

Exactly. The purpose of this game is to have fun. The hard core players will have gaming skills superior to the casual gamer and will win in combat more often. No need to make some ship unobtainable to the casual gamers.

[ngille]

I agree entirely here, but lets be fair the hardcore players are by definetion ones with very few commitments in real life and thats why their life is in game. By default they tend to be the most passionate about the game, because it is their enitre freetime life, and so generally, more vocal on the forum boards. The boards however, don't reflect what goes on in game. How often have we heard forum posts moaning about nerfs and boons that are totallu unbalancing game wrong, and yet the developers keep them going.

The bottomline is developers are making games to make money and casual players outnumber hardcore hundreds to one. Look at WoW, 10,000,000 subs, how many are hardcore? I don't know but it's certainly no where near 10,000,000. Developers won't cater exclusively for hardcore it's financial suicide. In this particular case, it's like not offering certain character classes to casual players and that just won't happen

I agree with you, the point is this post....most of the posts here flaunt one extreme or the other with no room for compromise, they either want a system where only they and those like them are able to achieve the "good stuff" or make it where anyone can get any thing.

Personally I am in the middle but towards the casual. Both sides in this particular debate seem to be a bit selfish imho. Not an attack just my observation....on the other side most of the folks in this thread that I have seen post in the other threads are cool to the extreme and intelligent posters.

[Reinkaos]

Perhaps the one who does the best for their Federation/High Command, instead of themselves. So diplomacy and whatnot.. who disocvers the most space/makes more first contacts etc

[AaronH]

I think there are going to be standard PC ships, and any person through standard in game progression can gain, then I think there are going to be starbases and certain extremely large ships or special ships that require a fleet to build, and that will be the only requirment.

Now, assuming fleets are like what cryptic has done for CoH, fleets will most likely be capable of being formed by a single player, and the capability to eventually gain everything, it just takes a bit longer than a larger sized fleet.

I generally like this idea, but it largely depends on the details and numbers.

[Harddrive]

Yeah, i hear all this about a 'gimme gimme' crowd about people that play hard and expect benefits from it. They are right. If they put more effort into it they should get higher rewards. That is just how it works. The real "GIMME GIMME" crowd are those that are like ' I only play 1 hour a day or less but I want a sovereign too!' This is incredibly arrogant and wrong to expect.

For this to be in any way realistic there have to be limits on ships. I am not sure how you would get players in big ships to trade them but it has to be done. Say there are 5% sovereigns, 8% galaxies and so to in a ratio with the player base. Everyone in the biggest ships is wrong, boring, and unrealistic.

A possible way around this is to give each ship a different role. If the sabre had a specific role that a galaxy could not do more people would want to fly it, the same with an oberth, a steamrunner a defiant or whatever. I know from my reading that almost everyone wants a sovereign or galaxy and a lot of people feel they should just be handed one ( Ill refrain from saying what i think about that) but you cant. You have to work for it and achieve it.

Please make progressing in this game worth something, not just something everyone has after 2 days of playing. :(

[Fernos]

Here we go with the standard basement dweller mating call. :rolleyes: . Newsflash my monthly fee tells me what I deserve, not some umm "person" that spends Twelve hours a day in front of a PC screen.

[Angelphoenix12]

i agree with the biggest and best ships ie galaxy and soves. should be only for those that earned them. it would be bad at end game if everyone had 1 of these ships. id like to see a bunch of different ships, that improve over time, instead of being forced into 1 of these ships. i know id like to have my own akira to get me to the end. :D

[archangel118]

I think there are going to be standard PC ships, and any person through standard in game progression can gain, then I think there are going to be starbases and certain extremely large ships or special ships that require a fleet to build, and that will be the only requirment.

Now, assuming fleets are like what cryptic has done for CoH, fleets will most likely be capable of being formed by a single player, and the capability to eventually gain everything, it just takes a bit longer than a larger sized fleet.

I generally like this idea, but it largely depends on the details and numbers.

From the sounds of things, I think one player will only be able to have one ship. I like the EVE Online system, where large guilds can build the best ships, but they are so expensive it takes the resources of the guild to do so and thus only the best members of the guild are granted them. I mean, in EVE people can get the highest ships on their own, but it takes so much resources that its almost impossible. This is at least one way they could limit the number of big dreadnought class ships.

[Harddrive]

(Here we go with the standard basement dweller mating call. . Newsflash my monthly fee tells me what I deserve, not some umm "person" that spends Twelve hours a day in front of a PC screen.)

Wow,

Are you a troll? YES
Should you go back to your cave? YES

Once your ready to have an intelligent conversation ill debate you. Oh, and i have a full time job and Im taking classes as well. I dont have much time in front of a computer as you may think.

I detest people that say "im paying, therefore I should have everything I want", forget the cheap hooker slogans and come back to real life.

[Varrangian]

Yeah, i hear all this about a 'gimme gimme' crowd about people that play hard and expect benefits from it. They are right. If they put more effort into it they should get higher rewards. That is just how it works. The real "GIMME GIMME" crowd are those that are like ' I only play 1 hour a day or less but I want a sovereign too!' This is incredibly arrogant and wrong to expect.

For this to be in any way realistic there have to be limits on ships. I am not sure how you would get players in big ships to trade them but it has to be done. Say there are 5% sovereigns, 8% galaxies and so to in a ratio with the player base. Everyone in the biggest ships is wrong, boring, and unrealistic.

A possible way around this is to give each ship a different role. If the sabre had a specific role that a galaxy could not do more people would want to fly it, the same with an oberth, a steamrunner a defiant or whatever. I know from my reading that almost everyone wants a sovereign or galaxy and a lot of people feel they should just be handed one ( Ill refrain from saying what i think about that) but you cant. You have to work for it and achieve it.

Please make progressing in this game worth something, not just something everyone has after 2 days of playing. :(

No if they work hard they should reap the rewards first, not get better ones. If time invested is the measuring stick for "hardcore" than time should be the reward, not items. Otherwise the argument could be made that if I pay more money I should get better items, and I'd be willing to bet few people would agree to this.

As I said the best way to make this a moot argument is to make sure that every ship has some form of role and can be well upgraded. There should be no "best" there should be "best at x"

[Harddrive]

No if they work hard they should reap the rewards first, not get better ones. If time invested is the measuring stick for "hardcore" than time should be the reward, not items. Otherwise the argument could be made that if I pay more money I should get better items, and I'd be willing to bet few people would agree to this.

As I said the best way to make this a moot argument is to make sure that every ship has some form of role and can be well upgraded. There should be no "best" there should be "best at x"

Isnt that what I said? Give ships a role? I agree

[archangel118]

One thing, in the shows we never had captains whining about not getting a Sovereign to command, each was actually rather proud of their ships and what they could do. I kind of like what you're proposing, where ships are good at certain roles so people will WANT to have different classes instead of everyone wanting the big class. Once again, personally I want to command a fast assault ship designed for black ops, so I want a Defiant. I'd actually enjoy a Defiant more than a Sovereign, so long as it had its advantages and I could keep its systems up to date with other classes.

[Varrangian]

Isnt that what I said? Give ships a role? I agree

You also said this...

Yeah, i hear all this about a 'gimme gimme' crowd about people that play hard and expect benefits from it. They are right. If they put more effort into it they should get higher rewards.

[TheMasterpiece]

We should not see the game full of the biggest and baddest ship one year from now. I would hope those ships would be limited in numbers and awarded to those Captains that have earned them.

Ways to earn one of the best ships.

Be a group leader that tends to win.
Tend to win at PVP
Do lots and lots of missions
Do lots and lots of crafting
Mixture of all.

Each time you do something you will get points. Those points will be shown in some sort of leader board.



You shouldnt restrict people to a certain form of playing to advance. Thats a terrible way to keep subscriptions up. Obviously you should have to work for a long time and earn experience to get better ships. youll also have to rank up to get a bigger and better ships.

Just beacuse someone doesnt want to PvP though doesnt mean they dont deserve a better ship, or just because someones not in a group, doesnt craft, etc. People play to have fun, and theyll play how they want. As time goes on and they earn XP they have the right to advance.

The advantage is people in large fleets will get these first from the shipyards they build. So people who do less will have less.

[UfcFan78]

Not everyone wants a Sovereign class or the Defiant or anything close to the best. Me? I want an Excelsior class.....and I do intend on pvp'ing with it. Fleet battles and tactics, ftw :)

So i don't think you will see 1 type of ship.....it will be a diverse fleet, i believe.

[Fernos]

:rolleyes:(Here we go with the standard basement dweller mating call. . Newsflash my monthly fee tells me what I deserve, not some umm "person" that spends Twelve hours a day in front of a PC screen.)

Wow,

Are you a troll? YES
Should you go back to your cave? YES

Once your ready to have an intelligent conversation ill debate you. Oh, and i have a full time job and Im taking classes as well. I dont have much time in front of a computer as you may think.

I detest people that say "im paying, therefore I should have everything I want", forget the cheap hooker slogans and come back to real life.


First off please learn how to use the quote function properly. Secondly your entire argument is moot, your style of More time equals more reward game play is dead, I personally detest Elitist hotpocket mongers who think that everyone should bleed for every single item and credit.

The developers have already said that while yes some things can only be accomplished by a fleet the vast majority of game play will not require an endless grind to uberdom in other words this isn't the type of game you are looking for.

No one wants to debate you on this we have heard all of your lame arguments before in every other MMO where the developers have turned their back on you. The masses have spoken and Cryptic wants to actually turn a dollar and the average game does not want to support a game that has content that only .05% of the population will see.

And yes we all know that you are a full time student getting his PHD while working 90 hours a week and dating a supermodel. and still find time to Raid seven days a week..it's all true honest. :rolleyes:

[TheMasterpiece]

I think there are going to be standard PC ships, and any person through standard in game progression can gain, then I think there are going to be starbases and certain extremely large ships or special ships that require a fleet to build, and that will be the only requirment.

Now, assuming fleets are like what cryptic has done for CoH, fleets will most likely be capable of being formed by a single player, and the capability to eventually gain everything, it just takes a bit longer than a larger sized fleet.

I generally like this idea, but it largely depends on the details and numbers.



That sounds good to me. Fleets are a big part of the game and they can build starbases and shipyards and everything. Having a fleet should have certain advantages such as bigger ships and more resources.

[Athane]

Earlier in the thread people spoke of PVP as a way to advance....wouldnt it be logical that Federation players who avoided conflict o rmade self sacrafices would be seen as better officers in the peace loving federation guide lines.

Thats why this game is unique, each side has different values, so a system of 'leveling' would be different for both. Klingons prefer warriors, Federartion prefers explorers.

I like the idea of earning the ship one flies. If I was in a sovereign, I dont mind playing 2 weeks total to get it. But, if by then my Akira matched its fire power and speed due to upgrades, and my crew was experienced, Id be reluctant to switch to a larger less upgraded ship with a larger crew, many of which need to be retrained.

[Spaceball06]

I think this whole discussion just shows one thing. The game needs to be designed so that everyone who plays can have fun. The player who plays for 1hr/day needs to be able to have fun while the player who plays for 5hrs/day needs to be able to have fun. That being said, it only makes sense that the player who plays 5hrs/day is going to see 5 times the content as the player who plays for 1 hr/day. Also, there does need to be somewhat of a reason to come back to the game. You can’t expect to log on play for 4 hrs and then pick up a galaxy class starship. That’s nuts.
Basically there needs to be a distinct balance on low, medium, and high end content. In the end, there does need to be a reason to continue to play the game and that means there will probably need to be a certain amount of a challenge and high end content that can only be seen by working together within a fleet to take on. This means there will undoubtedly be rewards and content that only a high end fleet will be able to see.
There’s nothing wrong with this as long as casual and hardcore gamers alike have plenty of content and star trekking fun for everyone.

[Sorenzy]

I don't think that we should be simply given whatever super-de-duper ship type we want right out of the tutorial process...it simply kills a sense of individual achievement and character development.

I actually prefer the method of starting out small and then progressing over time to the larger and therefore more powerful classes of ships. If I can start the game and then just simply pick a Sovereign right out of the tutorial then that wouldn't really feel anywhere near as rewarding as having been actually commissioned a sovereign via starfleet due to my achievements on a series or campaign of missions. It would simply 'feel' better, make logical sense with the ST universe, and I would probably have a better idea on how to use the ship to it's fullest capacity since I've been commanding other vessels of various difficulty the entire time.

On the other hand I feel that PvP is important, despite having become a secondary feature to MMO's rather then a primary feature.

Simply put, fighting against another person is much more challenging and much more rewarding then simply fighting a few pages of logic statements and programming routines.

Should successful captains be rewarded for PvP prowess? Yes they should,

However the PvP rewards shouldn't be based on a killpoint based system, that simply leads to people making deals to simply grind pvp points off of each other just to get whatever rewards are in place...

[ussarchangel]

I think that there should be a skill based or experience based system based on the actions you take OR I also think that EVE has it right for ship progresstion...Skills. If you want a bigger ship you train for the appropriate skills. The skills take time to train and they will train while you offline that way for ppl who don't have hrs to spend logged on like most ppl they can get the same ships as everyone else. If everyone has to train for skills and the same amount of time is required for everyone then there is no advantages if you play for hrs or once in a while. The skills take the same amount of time either way. This should be tied in with XP points that are based on HOW you complete the missions,like someone else already mentioned. I seen a thread about comparisons for STO vs EVE, but i think it's a good system for eve. It would have to be modified a bit to fit STO though.:D

[DurMan667]

There have been a LOT of ships in Star Trek.

There is a lot of ground and reputation to get before you'd be able to get "the biggest and baddest."

I think the way you play the game should effect what tipe of vessels you can get. If you PvP, you should get battleships. If you explore, you should get science vessels.

Imagine the game has skill trees like WoW, but instead of skills, there are ships. At the beginning you can choose a basic ship from one of X general categories. The longer you use ships from said category, the better ships from that category you can get! This would mean that if everyone got the best ship, they still may not be the same ship.

Later, if you got sick of battling, for example, you could transfer to a basic science ship and start over. You'd still have your battle skill so at whatever time you could switch back.

In the event of having multiple ships per player, the elite players would have a small fleet of epic ships at their disposal.


Oh, and to get the best ship from any one category, you should have to do some sort of epic test of skill to "earn" the ship. Just like the huge quest chains to get epic weapons in some other MMOs.

[paynesgrey]

I think that the "Many Roads To Purplz Ships" would be the best approach. Rewards of this magnitude should not belong exclusively to PvPer's or PvEer's. Maybe the leet ships can be tailored to the gameplay they were earned with, but they should be comparable to those earned with other playstyles.

I can understand them being much more difficult for unafilliated and solo players, given that a fleet has more resources than the Lone Wolf type, however they should still be attainable.

[Deltab]

They said there is going to be some sort of ranking system that goes into which will likely be used to see what ships you can use. So you may start off in a Bird of Prey and work your way up.

Also I 100% believe that pvp needs to be a way to advance in rank. Perhaps 1 player ship of X rank is equal to Y rank xp.

I'm not saying that you need to pvp to rank up, but I saying is that you shouldn't have to PVE either.

[Cryptic_Fan_101]

Lemme guess, "keep it rare for everyone (except me!)"?

It's the "unlock my Jedi" Alpha-class syndrome all over again. :rolleyes:

[Deltab]

Lemme guess, "keep it rare for everyone (except me!)"?

It's the "unlock my Jedi" Alpha-class syndrome all over again. :rolleyes:

As an elder jedi all i can say is everyone wants to be Jedi... but its no fun when everyone is jedi...

Thats a good point, lets just start with all ships being balanced some way or another

[ngille]

They said there is going to be some sort of ranking system that goes into which will likely be used to see what ships you can use. So you may start off in a Bird of Prey and work your way up.

Also I 100% believe that pvp needs to be a way to advance in rank. Perhaps 1 player ship of X rank is equal to Y rank xp.

I'm not saying that you need to pvp to rank up, but I saying is that you shouldn't have to PVE either.

I am all for pvp rewards, however I think they should be comparable, NOT better than what you get pve. I pvp occasionally but it is by no means my focus in the game. I think I am with the majority on this. Most people want to pvp occasionally not constantly.

Lemme guess, "keep it rare for everyone (except me!)"?

It's the "unlock my Jedi" Alpha-class syndrome all over again. :rolleyes:

I agree, that seems to be the opinion of the "leet" type gamers that want all they good stuff in game for themselves.

[Aogos]

Lets not forget that ships are made up of several sections, it's highly likely you can upgrade them eg better shields, engines, crew etc. Geordi was forever upgrading stuff on the Enterprise, Data was bespoke etc so its well within lore. I would guess that the 'purple items' will be these customisations rather than actual ships.

[undraxis]

Personally I don't want to have the best ship, just give me a Norway, Saber or Steamrunner and ill be a happy camper >.<

[warrendeath]

I'm going to have to say there isn't going to be the best ship. Simple as that, there are tons of ships that equal the power and intensity of one ship. It creates balance so you don't have the typical 12 year old hosing you down with Quantum Torpedoes. Simple as that, there shouldn't be a big ship that certain people should get. If you get a new ship it should be more inclined than your last but isn't completely dominant over your last. If you make one ship more dominant than another it makes no balance. Jack said the game would be balanced for someone would just jumped on and was attacked by a higher up ship. Simple as that, there shouldn't be a superior ship.


Live long and prosper,

Warren

[ob1klone]

So we should have a bunch of clones running around in the exact same ships? Skill does not matter? Effort does not matter? Just everybody playing T-Ball and not keeping score.




Commander Riker: "Worf, it's just a game, a friendly little competition. You work up a sweat, you have a few laughs and you make new friends."


Lieutenant Worf: "If winning is not important, then Commander, why keep score?"


Power-gammers unite. :rolleyes:

This never works in games. All you mannage to do is alianate the largest portion of the player-base. Besides, who said anything about everyone wanting the same ships. I want a Akira class. And I want to be able to upgrade it to be competitive with all of the other classes in the game.

[Omega990]

Give me an Akira and Federation Fighters or a Prometheus with MVA and i will be happy, as long as i can use the time i have to get either of those ships and not have to PvP to do it then Cryptic will get my 15 a month just like NC receives it for CoX

[rau1988]

First of all let me say Cryptic should have some certainties when developing this game, I hope they do know them and are well counseled by real fans of Star Trek.
1. If in any way the ST Online "universe" violates the ideas of any of the ST series it would be highly attacked by the fans, which I think are gonna be a great majority of their clients.
2. Both, the ST fans and other possible players of the game will want a non-ending game. For this a continuously growing "universe" is the more likely solution, but then again the first point shouldn't be forgotten and there would be creative limits to the people at Cryptic. For instance: if after a year everyone has a Sovereign-class starship Cryptic may want to create another better ship to attract gamers and this would certainly be a violation of the ST original universe.
3. There is a great variety of tastes in the real ST fans. Some prefer the original series, other the Next Generation and I like Voyager very much. Even doe the Sovereign is the most advanced offensive and defensive starship the Federation has, many players would prefer other "classic" starships such as the Constitution-class.

Based upon this, many things can be concluded to apply in different topics.
a. Related to ships: in Star Trek, there are only a few major-class starships in each specie or association of species. For example, the well known Sovereign-class starship of the Federation already appears in the game trailer as the "Holy Grail" for every gamer playing ST Online and there's even a scene where as many as nine can be seen. When in the ST Universe there are only TWO Sovereign-class starships: Enterprise and Sovereign (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Sovereign_class#Ships_commissioned).
b. The Federation is a peace oriented organization and will only result to war in extreme cases. Many if not all of the starships should have a more importantly scientific orientation.
c. Money does not exist in the ST Universe, it is one of the great advancements of humanity we are able to dream of thanks to ST. Having some kind of "need of money" rather than resources would be an insult to Gene Rodenberry's work.

So, thinking about solutions to this there are some general ideas:
Greatly customizable ships permitting differences between players. With this, many different "final" objectives (refering to starship acquisition) such as starships for differently oriented players. Some for battle junkies, other for explorers and others for "black ops" as I saw someone suggest. Also, it would be great to give players the capability to upgrade their preferred starship (such as a Constitution or an Excelsior) to be able to stand tall side by side to a Sovereign. It would be great to feel fear and not laughter when seeing a small starship and question oneself "Does he is just begging or has he make it a small carrier of destruction?" Anyone would love to see that five small Runabouts are able to take on an Intrepid-class (medium size starship) and that 10 to 15 really small Peregrines or Danubes take on a big Sovereign. (Of course I'm talking war between Federation starships but they are simply the most well known.)
So, resuming, great variety, distinct objecives and many upgrades so small ships can take-on larger ones without fear. I certainly hope not a ST Online universe full of Sovereign's neither only two, but a well balanced example of how the real space would look like in ST.

[xiphias]

Easy solution: make all ships customisable to the player's gameplay-style, and give every ship strengths and weaknesses so that no ship is an automatic "I win" button.

If I want to, I should be able to upgrade e.g. a Nebula class starship to the teeth. Maybe the basic ship that you get is not as good from the outset as e.g. a Sovereign class starship, but with enough upgrades it should be comparable. It's happened several times in the Trek universe, e.g. General Chang's Bird of Prey, Deep Space 9 (5000 Photon torpedoes, anyone?)... and don't get me started on the USS Voyager.

[CowGoMuh_o0o]

*didn't read the whole thread* My thoughts. Ships should be an awesome part of a Fleet/guild. IE yeah you gotta join a fleet to get that really sweet Galaxy class uber ship of death +1 vs Klingon "K'blah this!". Anyways Yeah as you can tell I dont know the actual class system of ships so just think the uberest ship etc. Uber meaning super or best etc. I think that a group of people should get together to make such a ship and then after gaining the right materials and schematics to build such a ship it should be distrubuted towhichever captain the fleet deems worthy. It should however only be better by like < --- > much.. not like having a star destroyer vs an xwing time of thing.. maybe a imp. star destroyer vs a victory star destroyer.. guess what.. they're both star destroyers! get over it! lol. I know star wars and trek dont mix, not the point was just an expample! Anyways I'll stop rambling. Moo

[Kinjiru]

*didn't read the whole thread* My thoughts. Ships should be an awesome part of a Fleet/guild. IE yeah you gotta join a fleet to get that really sweet Galaxy class uber ship of death +1 vs Klingon "K'blah this!". Anyways Yeah as you can tell I dont know the actual class system of ships so just think the uberest ship etc. Uber meaning super or best etc. I think that a group of people should get together to make such a ship and then after gaining the right materials and schematics to build such a ship it should be distrubuted towhichever captain the fleet deems worthy. It should however only be better by like < --- > much.. not like having a star destroyer vs an xwing time of thing.. maybe a imp. star destroyer vs a victory star destroyer.. guess what.. they're both star destroyers! get over it! lol. I know star wars and trek dont mix, not the point was just an expample! Anyways I'll stop rambling. Moo

Not sure that I like that. I'll probably join a fleet (guild) anyway, but I don't think that you should be forced to join one simply to be eligible to have the "best" ship.

[CowGoMuh_o0o]

I think it would be a cool thing for a guild to work for, IE make it hard as heck to get the mats or plans together or the science points to descover said tech or whatever but definately think it should start with the fleet and maybe after that "leak" to the others. IE someone sees the ship and is like omg.. I wanna make that.. maybe If I just crossed the warp drive with a lil bit of this blue mat and BAM! We got the new ship.. or whatever. I dont think it should be impossible I'm just thinking those who work as a team together to make such n such product should get first crack at it.
Again, not saying that solo'er couldn't get an almost equivialant ship and even equiv AFTER its made by the fleet, I just think fleets should get first shot is all.

[Flixi]

Every ship class needs benefits and penalties

And even the biggest ships should not be uber ships.

I really hope that ships are not like items, to be replaced every second day. that would be poor.

I'd like the possibility to outfit and upgrade even an older ship being able to compete with average enemy ships.

Thus i would also like to see that every shipclass has unique advantages above other shipclasses. Simple Example: Small Vessels have a really high chance to evade or a smaller chance of being hit, while a Galaxy class is being hit almost every time, just because it is so big that even Chekov's old torpedo's can't miss it.

[CowGoMuh_o0o]

Every ship class needs benefits and penalties

And even the biggest ships should not be uber ships.

I really hope that ships are not like items, to be replaced every second day. that would be poor.

I'd like the possibility to outfit and upgrade even an older ship being able to compete with average enemy ships.

Thus i would also like to see that every shipclass has unique advantages above other shipclasses. Simple Example: Small Vessels have a really high chance to evade or a smaller chance of being hit, while a Galaxy class is being hit almost every time, just because it is so big that even Chekov's old torpedo's can't miss it.

Tactics FTW, any ship can be brought down or atleast thats the mindset I'm coming into the game thinking anyways. :D

[manadarken]

Ok, one thing that might be a major concern is the ship. Obviously most of you think that it is going to be a premade ship every time. Now I want you to broaden your range. Think of having your first premade starship, only you upgrade it and upgrade it and upgrade it. So the term "best ship" wouldn't apply at all. It depends on what skill levels you receive what type of items you can afford and obviously your rank. All these factors that would be put into place would be "kind of" like assembling your ship like an actual character on a game.

[mulder999]

I will pown everyone with my Nebula of Doom (pimped to hell and back), bring your Sovereigns, you have no chance!:p

[Terrez]

Yeah I agree the top ships sould take an awful lot of effort and team work to achieve!

[IanD967]

Every ship class needs benefits and penalties

And even the biggest ships should not be uber ships.

I really hope that ships are not like items, to be replaced every second day. that would be poor.

I'd like the possibility to outfit and upgrade even an older ship being able to compete with average enemy ships.

Thus i would also like to see that every shipclass has unique advantages above other shipclasses. Simple Example: Small Vessels have a really high chance to evade or a smaller chance of being hit, while a Galaxy class is being hit almost every time, just because it is so big that even Chekov's old torpedo's can't miss it.

100% agreed :cool:

[The_Padre]

We could always just steal the "best" ships from Earth Spacedock, hey it worked for Kirk :D

[IanD967]

yeah except he sabotaged the only other ship in the spacedock aswell and there would be far more than just 1 in the spacedock nowadays :p

[Kellir]

The only way I could see it working is if something was implemented such that maybe those that have achieved the rank of Admiral are eligible to be captain of the Federation's flagship (or some other perk ship) for a couple weeks, and once that time is up, the ship rotates to another Admiral, etc. In this case, rank and random chance would be the only factors for eligibility, and not how many hours one plays.

hmm, that may work.

What happens to a Captain without no ship? He can not level anymore doing "menial" things? That would stink.

You missed the point. I said there should be a limited number of the most powerful ships. There would still be plenty of 2nd best ships for everybody.

This post is just another way of saying, 'i want epic items' isn't it.

No, I am saying that there should not be 100,000 of the best ships in the game after 1 year of playing. There was never 100,000 of the best ships in any of the the movies or shows. Not sure on this but I think there was only 13 to 15 of the best ships in the TV shows.

Earlier in the thread people spoke of PvP as a way to advance....wouldn't it be logical that Federation players who avoided conflict or made self sacrifices would be seen as better officers in the peace loving federation guide lines.

That's why this game is unique, each side has different values, so a system of 'leveling' would be different for both. Klingons prefer warriors, Federation prefers explorers.

Very true, So Positive and Negative stats based on race would be needed?

[noblee]

Every ship class needs benefits and penalties

And even the biggest ships should not be uber ships.

I really hope that ships are not like items, to be replaced every second day. that would be poor.

I'd like the possibility to outfit and upgrade even an older ship being able to compete with average enemy ships.

Thus i would also like to see that every shipclass has unique advantages above other shipclasses. Simple Example: Small Vessels have a really high chance to evade or a smaller chance of being hit, while a Galaxy class is being hit almost every time, just because it is so big that even Chekov's old torpedo's can't miss it. Exactly. A Galaxy-class starship was probably not ideal if you wanted to sneak around, etc.

If every ship has a tactical use, this could become a lot of fun. Someone is in a stripped and fast ship designed to chase fleeing vessels, someone is in a dreadnaught that barely moves, but packs a punch, someone is in a ship with top of the line sensors so they can target subsystems and disable the enemy, etc.

If the PvE does what I hope it does with generated mission content, and it takes into account what you are in, this may be a game that I would play for a very long time.

[fritos1]

We should not see the game full of the biggest and baddest ship one year from now. I would hope those ships would be limited in numbers and awarded to those Captains that have earned them.

Ways to earn one of the best ships.

Be a group leader that tends to win.
Tend to win at PVP
Do lots and lots of missions
Do lots and lots of crafting
Mixture of all.

Each time you do something you will get points. Those points will be shown in some sort of leader board.

Well not sure how they will implement the skill system but it should be how it was in SWG when JTL 1st came out which is as you did things in Space Such as Combat wether it was PVP or just space missions over time you earned skill points and as you put more ponts in your piloting skills you got better ability's and the right to use different ships. It shouldn't be limited because there will be people that don't pvp and they shouldn't be forced to to get some thing. Not saying they shouldn't earn it just dont limit the ways to get it.

[Swiftus27]

We should not see the game full of the biggest and baddest ship one year from now. I would hope those ships would be limited in numbers and awarded to those Captains that have earned them.

Ways to earn one of the best ships.

Be a group leader that tends to win.
Tend to win at PVP
Do lots and lots of missions
Do lots and lots of crafting
Mixture of all.

Each time you do something you will get points. Those points will be shown in some sort of leader board.

Great, another game that caters to the top players who can afford to play 12 hours per day.

[IanD967]

Great, another game that caters to the top players who can afford to play 12 hours per day.

you should change that to "great, another player who wants the game to cater to the top players who can afford to play 12 hours per day"

i have that time but i still dont agree with it :)

[babanathie]

I tend to agree that certain ships should be given out as rewards for successful captains (i.e. do so many missions successfully and gain enough "influence", "prestige" or "favor"). These reward ships should be unique and worthy of the time investment involved to gain them. However, they should not be gamebreakers and should cover a broad spectrum of ship classes. Instead of just having a new battleship available as a reward, there can be a new super nimble escort that is still in its preproduction stages, or there can be a new longe range cruiser with cutting edge sensor, computer and warp technology.

[CaptainQuirk]

The bottom line on this whole issue is that if the only way to get the best ships is to spend hours and hours grinding through PvP and/or PvE, then the casual gamers are going to take forever to be able to see or have what the hardcore crowd will get in a matter of days.

Ideally, there should be no way anyne can really know if his fellow player is a casual or hardcore player. Unless they go around bragging on how much time they spend in-game. How much time an individual has to play the game should have no bearing on what content he or she can access. Having said that, though, there should be a system whereby access to content is earned.

Look back at this post (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=142134&postcount=53) that I made yesterday.

This method actually puts casual gamers and hardcore gamers on equal footing in terms of being able to advance through earnable content.

To expand on that a bit, prestige points should be used to purchase any sort of upgrade or advancement to the ship, the crew or main character traits. Some ships like the Galaxy or Sovereign class should require a significant number of prestige points, as well as a commanding officer (CO) with a high command rating (increased by spending prestige points), command of lesser ships in one's command history, as well as other factors.

Prestige could also be donated to one's fleet. The fleet commander (FC) could use fleet prestige to place orders for ships and equipment. But still, the individual captain MUST have enough personal prestige and credentials to take command of any ship in question. If a fleet consists of 50 ships, and a galaxy class ship requires 50 prestige points to order, then each CO could donate a prestige point to the fleet, and the FC can order one.

Casual or hardcore, it makes no difference. everyone gets access to everything but has to earn that access. It just won't matter how much time the player puts in, but rather how they choose to spend their prestige points.

[Kellir]

So many people are taking first and not thinking that I added a bunch of information to my OP. Please, I am begging everybody, read the first post all the way before making a post of your own.

[babanathie]

The bottom line on this whole issue is that if the only way to get the best ships is to spend hours and hours grinding through PvP and/or PvE, then the casual gamers are going to take forever to be able to see or have what the hardcore crowd will get in a matter of days.

Ideally, there should be no way anyne can really know if his fellow player is a casual or hardcore player. Unless they go around bragging on how much time they spend in-game. How much time an individual has to play the game should have no bearing on what content he or she can access. Having said that, though, there should be a system whereby access to content is earned.

Look back at this post (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=142134&postcount=53) that I made yesterday.

This method actually puts casual gamers and hardcore gamers on equal footing in terms of being able to advance through earnable content.

To expand on that a bit, prestige points should be used to purchase any sort of upgrade or advancement to the ship, the crew or main character traits. Some ships like the Galaxy or Sovereign class should require a significant number of prestige points, as well as a commanding officer (CO) with a high command rating (increased by spending prestige points), command of lesser ships in one's command history, as well as other factors.

Prestige could also be donated to one's fleet. The fleet commander (FC) could use fleet prestige to place orders for ships and equipment. But still, the individual captain MUST have enough personal prestige and credentials to take command of any ship in question. If a fleet consists of 50 ships, and a galaxy class ship requires 50 prestige points to order, then each CO could donate a prestige point to the fleet, and the FC can order one.

Casual or hardcore, it makes no difference. everyone gets access to everything but has to earn that access. It just won't matter how much time the player puts in, but rather how they choose to spend their prestige points.

I don't think your link is working as intended. Almost every game (at least the ones that I've played) has had some special reward for grinders (or those vets that just stuck around long enough to have grinded enough) whether that reward was an uber weapon, a shiny suit of armor, a ship or a piece of furniture to put in your virtual house. That is something that keeps players hooked and coming back for more and gives players a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction. You give that to everyone, then no one really feels that sense of accomplishment, and it will cheapen the reward.

But then, I'm not talking about just a Soveriegn class starship. I'm referring more to a "unique" items and ships. More like the situation when the Soveriegn or Defiant first came out and commanding one of those ships would be considered a great honor (more so than 30 years later when they have become more common place).

p.s. - Before someone tries to lump me into that group of hardcore (and/or no life) gamer. I spent the 270 days last year and over 270 days the year before out to sea without internet. I don't have time to be a hardcore gamer. But, I won't begrudge someone that does have the time their sense of accomplishment.

[3of11]

Here is the problem as I have seen it with other MMO's. (sorry if this has been said, I scanned thru and did not completely read everything...) It is a question of time. Not everyone has the time to be able to meet the most extreme goals. I understand the desire to have your time and effort rewarded, but if you have responsibilities, then you are denied part of the game that you are paying your monthly fee for same as everyone else. I think WoW did a good job with the PvP rewards vs the Dungeon sets, so hopefully something like that will be implemented here....:D

[sylvermane64]

Whoa whoa whoa.

I think that the work you do in game should be recognised. You shouldn't be entitled to the "best" stuff right off the bat. They have to have advancements or the game would be boring.

And I say all that being a mediocre player who most likely wouldn't get one of the "best" ships under my own system.

I don't think anyone is saying that they deserve the stuff right off the bat. And I fully agree that the biggest and best ships should be 'earned'. I don't want to get them just because I pay $15 a month, and I would consider myself a casual player since I play maybe a couple hours a day.

BUT..I shouldn't HAVE to PvP to get the best and the biggest. I shouldn't HAVE group, even though I have always joined pick up groups, made some friends and we all teamed up together to do missions.

And most importantly, I shouldn't HAVE to be in a group to run the biggest and the baddest ships in the game. Sure it may take me a little while longer to EARN my ship, but I believe that no casual player wants a premier ship in the game just given to us.

But we'll have to wait and see what they come up with to 'earn' these ships and then we can argue the validity of it then.

[Everitt_Cage]

We should not see the game full of the biggest and baddest ship one year from now. I would hope those ships would be limited in numbers and awarded to those Captains that have earned them.


heres an idea: what does it matter to you how many of whatever kind of ships other people have? play the game for your own enjoyment and let other people do the same. as long as you "earn" your ship, dont worry about how other people get theirs.

[MajorD]

No, I am saying that there should not be 100,000 of the best ships in the game after 1 year of playing. There was never 100,000 of the best ships in any of the the movies or shows. Not sure on this but I think there was only 13 to 15 of the best ships in the TV shows.
The ten ships in the class thing was never substantiated for the Galaxy class. If we assume the launch of the Enterprise-D, in 2363, is the initiation of full production of the Galaxy class, then that means the Galaxy class was in production for 12 years until the end of the Dominion War in 2375. By that time, we were seeing dozens of Galaxy class vessels participating in individual fleets.

Sure, when a new class first enters production, the first two ships or so are going to come slow but still at a regular pace. After that production will be steady and as rapid as the number of ship yards, and other ship orders, allow. Not only that, but Starfleet's manufacturing ability is no doubt stronger than our own today. A class might start out with three ships the first year, but by the end of the second year you could easily see ten more completed ships. Remember, after the battle of Wolf 359, it was stated that it would take a year, just one year, to replace the 39 starships destroyed in the battle with the Borg cube.

I don't want to have to play an MMO for twelve years, just to use a certain class of ship, I probably won't play the game more than a year, two tops, if it's as good as City of Heroes. If the very first few ships of a class are reserved for elite players, that's something I might support, but after that it should be first come first serve.

[Everitt_Cage]

I don't want to have to play an MMO for twelve years, just to use a certain class of ship, I probably won't play the game more than a year, two tops, if it's as good as City of Heroes. .

based on how every other mmo in existance works, i think its pretty safe to say that anyone who powergames will be able to get the highest rank/best ship in no more than a few months.

[babanathie]

Here is the problem as I have seen it with other MMO's. (sorry if this has been said, I scanned thru and did not completely read everything...) It is a question of time. Not everyone has the time to be able to meet the most extreme goals. I understand the desire to have your time and effort rewarded, but if you have responsibilities, then you are denied part of the game that you are paying your monthly fee for same as everyone else. I think WoW did a good job with the PvP rewards vs the Dungeon sets, so hopefully something like that will be implemented here....:D

In two years time, I managed to get a navy issued battleship in Eve. It's not an easy feat. I spent about three (per year for a total of six) months in homeport. That's one of the top of the line ships, plus I manage to deck it out with alot (not all) tech 2 gear.

A grind is a grind and everything is in some way a grind. But we aren't really talking about whether anyone is denied certain rewards. We're talking about how long it takes to gain certain rewards. Let's put this at the other extreme. Do you want to be able to "purchase" a Soveriegn class starship before the end of your first hour of gameplay? Could we get a brand new and hard to get starship after two hours of play? How much longer after you hit the "endgame" would you continue to play STO (or any game for that matter)? How much longer would the average gamer play after reaching the "endgame" items? More importantly, will most people have a sense of accomplishment after doing one or two missions and getting a Sovereign class starship? Or would it cheapen it? So lets change hours to days. Still cheap? Days to weeks? Weeks to months? Since we're talking about casual gamers, how would we feel about all those hardcore ones that take a few hours or days to get the best. So ask them the same questions.

While I agree that there is such a thing as making "tangible" accomplishments too hard in MMOs, there are definitely ways of making it too easy, and trying to find that middle ground will still leave someone out of the mix. So where do we want to draw the line?

Sorry, but I have to run now. My 24 hours of work is up.

[CaptainQuirk]

I don't think your link is working as intended.

It isn't. For some reason, when trying to link to an individual post within the thread, the forums center all text, print out quotes within the post in white text and any original text in the post in black, so it can't be seen. Maybe they'll fix this eventually... This is the relevant portion of that post:

I say let there be a merrit and demerrit system in place. A successful mission should result in a merrit point. An aborted mission results in no merrit or demerrit. A failed mission results in a demerrit. At the end of the Every 24 hours, if there are more merrits than demerrits, the player's ship gets a prestige point. Prestige points would allow a player to qualify for better ships or be able to recruit better crew members

Almost every game (at least the ones that I've played) has had some special reward for grinders (or those vets that just stuck around long enough to have grinded enough) whether that reward was an uber weapon, a shiny suit of armor, a ship or a piece of furniture to put in your virtual house. That is something that keeps players hooked and coming back for more and gives players a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction. You give that to everyone, then no one really feels that sense of accomplishment, and it will cheapen the reward.

The problem with these other games is that they are grind-centric and don't even pretend to be anything more than that. They know that grindfests bore the hell out of most people. But they don't care. Grindfests buy them time to create the next grindfest. If content in these games was meaningful, as in somehow affecting the gameworld in some way, then going out and killing hundreds of the same mob could do something like decrease the number of said mob. Then the player could know that what he did was neither mindless nor meaningless, and that would bring satisfaction. As it is, grindfests are both mindless and meaningless, so the player feels like he should be compensated for wasting his time.

Jack hinted that the missions we undertake will have an effect on galactic affairs, not just for us, but for our faction. This suggests an end to the mindless grindfest approach to design.

But then, I'm not talking about just a Soveriegn class starship. I'm referring more to a "unique" items and ships. More like the situation when the Soveriegn or Defiant first came out and commanding one of those ships would be considered a great honor (more so than 30 years later when they have become more common place).

The merrit and prestige system I suggest would make it so that everyone can earn the honor of commanding one of these ships... but the price in prestige points would be very steep. That coupled with the need for the player to spend prestige on his character's command rating to get it high enough, as well as having to have commanded lesser ships in the meantime would make it so that a Galaxy Class (assuming it costs 50 prestige points to be able to requisition one) would take FIFTY DAYS to qualify for... After all the other prerequisites are met.

Players should ALL have equal access to content. What truly determines how long it takes should be the choices thos players make.

[CinC-UFPForces-Cardassia]

If you pay the $15 a month, you deserve them.

This is an important point that deserves expansion upon, and if others have gotten to it already, I apologize. But I did want to highlight it.

I recognize the problems posed by, as the original poster noted, having thousands and thousands of SOVEREIGN Class starships roaming the galaxy within a year of launch. That would constitute something of a failure, but that's the development team's failure to anticipate and attempt to prevent, not the player's burden. You simply cannot put artificial restrictions on major elements of the game, like the types of ships players can fly. That was impractical under Perpetual's system of multi-player crewed starships, and it's twice as impractical under Cryptic's system.

It's one thing to offer specific content to certain in-world choices, like your character's race or profession. But it constitutes cheating the player when everyone pays $50+$15 for the privilege of playing the game, but because of the out-of-world choice they make about how they will play the game, they're denied core content. It's the wrong approach to follow. If you pay the $15 a month, you deserve all the core content.

[Swiftus27]

This is an important point that deserves expansion upon, and if others have gotten to it already, I apologize. But I did want to highlight it.

I recognize the problems posed by, as the original poster noted, having thousands and thousands of SOVEREIGN Class starships roaming the galaxy within a year of launch. That would constitute something of a failure, but that's the development team's failure to anticipate and attempt to prevent, not the player's burden. You simply cannot put artificial restrictions on major elements of the game, like the types of ships players can fly. That was impractical under Perpetual's system of multi-player crewed starships, and it's twice as impractical under Cryptic's system.

It's one thing to offer specific content to certain in-world choices, like your character's race or profession. But it constitutes cheating the player when everyone pays $50+$15 for the privilege of playing the game, but because of the out-of-world choice they make about how they will play the game, they're denied core content. It's the wrong approach to follow. If you pay the $15 a month, you deserve all the core content.


Okay... You say no to Sovereigns being all over the place. I am fine with this. In fact, I am perfectly fine for this. I would find it amazing if there was an actual Promotions Board that will decide if you are ready for advancment in rank (even though, we all know that this is highly improbable). No rank = no bigger ship.

THEN, Who will decide who gets those few capital ships? Are you all, again, asking for a game that caters to the ultra hardcore? Count me out then. I have too much to do with my life than take on some 18 year old for a ship.

This game will be in a constant struggle to appease those 12 hour-a-day-gamers and those who play 2-3 at most.

[Davis]

Why would you give the best ships to the best players..thats god mode overkill. Think about it!

[Trekkie]

Some of these ideas are interesting, and while I think we may very well see a system in which players are rewarded with specific types of ships, I hope that the system does not require a player to explore a specific aspect of the content if they do not want to (such as Player vs. Player).

[BreachAndClear]

A better system I think - and I'm sure others have thought of this - would be offering different ship "trees" to different professions. So that the Sovereign may very well not even be accessible to someone specializing as a Medical officer, perhaps they get access to the Galaxy instead, etc. (this system would have to be somewhat arbitrary, because there aren't that many ships in the series that cater more to one profession over another).

That way you would see a reasonable variety of ships around, representing a variety of professions.

But personally I don't care. Even if there are 1,000 sovereigns, you're not going to be seeing them all, space is big enough for them to spread out. And I don't think there's going to be a "hands down" best ship. I think they'll be balanced to cater to different player preferences. E.G. Jack mentioned that the Defiant will be excellent offensively, but will be lacking defensively, while the Galaxy class will be balanced offensively and defensively, but specializing in neither. The Sovereign will probably have a draw back of its own, and thus won't be favored by all players.

[Saladin_Class]

So I cant fly a good ship for my $15 bucks a month,

Because I refuse to do PvP, because I dont like it.

[NateGrey]

I think they should just totally forget about all the designs we're familiar with and create whole new vessels. It is the 25th Century after all. While I do understand that we wanna have a sense of Star Trek familiarity, it can still be achieved with new designs that make you say " Hey, that's a starfleet vessel " without having to resort to seeing those nasty ship designs that have been around since Star Trek 2.

[mezlabor]

I think they should just totally forget about all the designs we're familiar with and create whole new vessels. It is the 25th Century after all. While I do understand that we wanna have a sense of Star Trek familiarity, it can still be achieved with new designs that make you say " Hey, that's a starfleet vessel " without having to resort to seeing those nasty ship designs that have been around since Star Trek 2.

Well Mirandas, Excellisors Ambassadors Oberth are probably obsolete now, Im sure 30 years from now Akiras, Galaxies, Nebula Sovereigns, Defiants, Sabers, Norways, Intrepids Prometheus, Novas and Steamrunners would still be in service. The federation uses ship desgins for a long time. The miranda and excelssiors saw service for 100 years. Itd be reasonable to assume the above ships are still in service. Obviously tho in 30 years there will be new ship designs.

And the Kligons are worse. They make A new design like every 20 years.

[walkingshark]

We should not see the game full of the biggest and baddest ship one year from now. I would hope those ships would be limited in numbers and awarded to those Captains that have earned them.


I disagree. My gameplay experience shouldn't be hindered because a 14 year old and his unemployed friends can play 10x as much as I can.

I don't mind making them hard to get, requiring friends, raids, whatever. I do strongly dislike the idea of limiting the numbers. Especially on a single-server (aka EVE style) system, it just seems like a horrible, horrible idea.

Having something cool should be the reward, not having something that other people don't have. If you obsess over what everyone else in the game is driving, you're doing it wrong.

[walkingshark]

Well Mirandas, Excellisors Ambassadors Oberth are probably obsolete now, Im sure 30 years from now Akiras, Galaxies, Nebula Sovereigns, Defiants, Sabers, Norways, Intrepids Prometheus, Novas and Steamrunners would still be in service. The federation uses ship desgins for a long time. The miranda and excelssiors saw service for 100 years. Itd be reasonable to assume the above ships are still in service. Obviously tho in 30 years there will be new ship designs.

And the Kligons are worse. They make A new design like every 20 years.

Very true. We've also seen plenty of precedent for highly modified versions of old ships seeing service. Best example is comparing the original exelsior to the enterprise B. Same basic shape and layout, but lots of stylistic differences. Personally I think the B looked better ;)

[mezlabor]

I disagree. My gameplay experience shouldn't be hindered because a 14 year old and his unemployed friends can play 10x as much as I can.

I don't mind making them hard to get, requiring friends, raids, whatever. I do strongly dislike the idea of limiting the numbers. Especially on a single-server (aka EVE style) system, it just seems like a horrible, horrible idea.

Having something cool should be the reward, not having something that other people don't have. If you obsess over what everyone else in the game is driving, you're doing it wrong. I wouldnt want to see this either. Ships should be something everyone can get maybe osme slower then others but it shouldnt be limited to an elite few.

[MajorD]

based on how every other mmo in existance works, i think its pretty safe to say that anyone who powergames will be able to get the highest rank/best ship in no more than a few months.
I don't power game, and if I spend a year and $180 getting to the highest character level, there better be all the awesome ships I want, regardless of how I got to the level, unless its a ship that just came out a month ago. As I said, I don't mind if it's a super new item and they're trying to have some sort of in-universe "production cycle".

I don't mind special missions either, City of Heroes had plenty of things you had to do special missions to get. My character had a great ice pistol that could only be had through a certain mission, but anyone could get it if they did that mission. There were also items you could only get if you signed up early, or did something else later on, but they eventually made the later thing available to everyone some months later. There were certain badges you could only get for completing certain tasks on one day holiday events. Cryptic knows how to handle these things.

Writing that reminded me, one of the better things in City of Heroes were the hidden tourist markers that would give you badges. I'm betting STO will have something similar to encourage exploration. Even Mass Effect has something like that.

[Kinjiru]

I haven't gone through and read all of the posts in this thread, but ultimately my question is:
How do you determine who is more worthy to Captain the "best" ships?

Time spent ingame? I hope not.

Let some guild leader decide? Who is he/she to determine if I'm worthy?

Let Starfleet decide? While ultimately the "canon" answer, who's Starfleet? The GMs? They can't make decisions for the thousands of us in the game.

The only way that I can see is to have "Starship Command" as a player skill, and the more points that you put into it, the larger ship that you qualify to command.

[TheMasterpiece]

I haven't gone through and read all of the posts in this thread, but ultimately my question is:
How do you determine who is more worthy to Captain the "best" ships?

Time spent ingame? I hope not.

Let some guild leader decide? Who is he/she to determine if I'm worthy?

Let Starfleet decide? While ultimately the "canon" answer, who's Starfleet? The GMs? They can't make decisions for the thousands of us in the game.

The only way that I can see is to have "Starship Command" as a player skill, and the more points that you put into it, the larger ship that you qualify to command.



No one should decide. And anyone thinking ships should be limited or people should earn them. it sounds weird. we dont start with the biggest ship.

We should have to put in time and gain XP for ships. but no one should have the right to tell me that even though im paying for the game, ive played for months, gained XP and performed well that I cant have a ship

[Kinjiru]

No one should decide. And anyone thinking ships should be limited or people should earn them. it sounds weird. we dont start with the biggest ship.

We should have to put in time and gain XP for ships. but no one should have the right to tell me that even though im paying for the game, ive played for months, gained XP and performed well that I cant have a ship

I agree completely. Thanks for the affirmation. Incidentally, I happen to think that Cryptic will agree.

[mezlabor]

I agree completely. Thanks for the affirmation. Incidentally, I happen to think that Cryptic will agree.
I dont think theyd ever seriously consider it

[Deadzone]

There's the plain answer, right there.

You pay, you have as much right to the cool stuff as everyone else who pays. Period. End.

Ever notice that people who use the word "deserve" in this way automatically assume that they, themselves, are deserving? And that they already know what others must do to be deserving? :rolleyes:

KOS

Uh no, I'm sorry but that is not a valid excuse. You deserve what Crytpic says you deserve in relation to the mechanics THEY put in their game. When you click the "accept" button when you install the game, you have said you will accept whatever play-style and overall game mechanics Cryptic has put into that game.

Just because you pay any money doesn't mean crap.

And I agree that the BIG stuff in game should be made HARD to get. Otherwise every person and their household pets will be using them. Then what point is there to use any thing else in the whole game? You may as well just give everyone that battleship right off the bat and cut out all the whining...and programming time!!... from the start.

And I'm also sorry that you don't have 10 hours a day to play the game. I don't have that kind of time at all either. But i'm not going to sit here and whine saying I should get what everyone else has....without working for it. Thats the lamest excuse for anything I have ever seen and proves to me at least you won't /aren't willing to do the hard work to get that extra benefit.

And that pretty much goes for anyone else who wants to try saying they should get the good stuff too, although they will only play half as much and can only do 1/3 of what other people will be doing. Uhh..NO!

You want it, you work your ass off for it. ......thats how its been since humans jumped out of the trees and I see no reason to change it now.

[mezlabor]

Uh no, I'm sorry but that is not a valid excuse. You deserve what Crytpic says you deserve in relation to the mechanics THEY put in their game. When you click the "accept" button when you install the game, you have said you will accept whatever play-style and overall game mechanics Cryptic has put into that game.

Just because you pay any money doesn't mean crap.

And I agree that the BIG stuff in game should be made HARD to get. Otherwise every person and their household pets will be using them. Then what point is there to use any thing else in the whole game? You may as well just give everyone that battleship right off the bat and cut out all the whining...and programming time!!... from the start.

And I'm also sorry that you don't have 10 hours a day to play the game. I don't have that kind of time at all either. But i'm not going to sit here and whine saying I should get what everyone else has....without working for it. Thats the lamest excuse for anything I have ever seen and proves to me at least you won't /aren't willing to do the hard work to get that extra benefit.

And that pretty much goes for anyone else who wants to try saying they should get the good stuff too, although they will only play half as much and can only do 1/3 of what other people will be doing. Uhh..NO!

You want it, you work your ass off for it. ......thats how its been since humans jumped out of the trees and I see no reason to change it now.
That kind of Elitist attitude in mmos is a relic of the past. The mmo genre is moving away from it.

[vp21ct]

That kind of Elitist attitude in mmos is a relic of the past. The mmo genre is moving away from it.

i agree thats why i left WoW for CoX

however i would like to say that this might be an exception in some areas, the best ships SHOULD be hard to get. im srry but i DONT want to have to watch my step in PvP because every guy thats been on for 3 monthes has a Neg'Vagh

[mezlabor]

i agree thats why i left WoW for CoX

however i would like to say that this might be an exception in some areas, the best ships SHOULD be hard to get. im srry but i DONT want to have to watch my step in PvP because every guy thats been on for 3 monthes has a Neg'Vagh
the best ships should be hard to get but they shouldnt be exclusive or limited in number. You shouldt have say 15 of the top ships and then choose the "best" 15 players to give them to. It should be somethign that anyone who puts the time into getting can get.

[vp21ct]

the best ships should be hard to get but they shouldnt be exclusive or limited in number. You shouldt have say 15 of the top ships and then choose the "best" 15 players to give them to. It should be somethign that anyone who puts the time into getting can get.

that is true, but i think that there should be a limiting system to it, again i can see servers with slow noob joins getting an imbalance of Early/Late ships

[knight1b]

My question is, what criteria do you use to determing who deserves something and who does not.

Typically, I see this kind of thing a lot in a variety of MMOs. And it is usually the hardcore players who wish to impose "merrit restrictions". They say things like "I work my butt off, putting in ten hours a day on this game. I deserve to get [insert perk here] before some casual player who only plays one hour a day.

I call these people the "gimme gimme" crowd. They act as if their $15 per month is worth more than other people's. Nobody forces them to play ten hours a day. Obviously, they enjoy the game and have a lot of time on their hands.

The fact that some casual players only have one hour a day to devote to personal entertainment, which they choose to apply to the MMO in question, doesn't seem to register with the gimme gimme crowd, who often says things like, "If you want it bad enough, noob, work for it like I did!"

EXCUSE ME!

It's a game. People play games as a diversion from work and real life concerns. I would say that those who play for ten hours or more a day, and equate their game activities as "working", should probably consider getting a job that requires actually going in to an office and putting in 8 to ten hours a day, where they would be written up or fired if they are caught playing a game on company time. They may find that they fall into the same bracket as the one they would call a "noob" for wanting to be able to get the same content as anyone else on the grounds that they pay the same monthly fee.

And actually, the gimme gimme crowd is in the minority, yet they pitch very loud temper tantrums, and are actually, in many cases, the reason why many MMOs have yet to emerge from the perceived need to grind mind-numbingly through levels.

In another MMO community, I advocates a system whereby each day, any player may move up to the next advancement rung, or obtain their next ability. This would not be cumulative, so someone couldn't play one day, skip nine days and then advance nine rungs or obtain nine abilities. Every day they play, they get one merrit point to spend.

The casual players who responded to that concept supported it. But almost invarriably, the hardcore gimme gimme crowd rejects it saying that their gameplay would be "gated" and that if they are willing to put in the hours, they ought to be able to get rewarded for it. Well, I would say that for the casual gamer, not being able to achieve anything worth while because they don't have a lot of free time on their hands, in a way, gates THEM from being able to enjoy the same things which other players pay the same amount of money for.

While I disagree with awarding merit and advancement just for logging on I agree with everything else. Content restrictions that often end up being based solely on weather or not you have a life outside the game are not the way to go.

[Deadzone]

That kind of Elitist attitude in mmos is a relic of the past. The mmo genre is moving away from it.

Elitist attitude? LOL mate...please....cry me a river.

Its called REAL LIFE!! Noone hands you anything in real life just because you think you are entitled to it! You have to EARN IT! You work FOR IT!!

And thats how it has been in ANY game or just about any game that has ever been made. The reward= the time/effort you put ito it.

And its pretty laughable to say the MMO genre is moving away from it as every game I STILL see comming out rewards those who put more effort into something than someone who holds their hand out asking for free-bees.

And if you want to have everything hande to you in some socialist or communist-entitlement game...or real life for that matter, go play HelloKitty-online and go move to Cuba. Those to places should fit your ideals pretty well.

[knight1b]

Elitist attitude? LOL mate...please....cry me a river.

Its called REAL LIFE!! Noone hands you anything in real life just because you think you are entitled to it! You have to EARN IT! You work FOR IT!!

And thats how it has been in ANY game or just about any game that has ever been made. The reward= the time/effort you put ito it.

And its pretty laughable to say the MMO genre is moving away from it as every game I STILL see comming out rewards those who put more effort into something than someone who holds their hand out asking for free-bees.

And if you want to have everything hande to you in some socialist or communist-entitlement game...or real life for that matter, go play HelloKitty-online and go move to Cuba. Those to places should fit your ideals pretty well.

The problem rather Quickly becomes this and I will use Everquest as an example here most mmo players should know it well enough.

In everquest I have a Max level character decently outfitted because I have put allot of work into it. That seems as it should be right? However there is solo/group content that until the recent changes in the requirements I could not access. The simple reason being time I did not have the time to join with some hardcore raiding guild that raids 10 hours + out of every 24 Grinds xp another 10 and sleeps and eats maybe 4 hours. Those that play the 20 hours a day get the best gear and other such items. They also get to see all the games areas and content.

Myself on the other hand despite putting in as much or often more time and effort than players with the 20 hours to grind and raid literally all day and night had to make due with weaker gear and fewer areas I could gain access to. Meanwhile the game continued to grow in complexity and difficulty of content all in an effort to satisfy the hardcore players loud screams for more more and more.

Often said players will put down those with less time and scream louder and louder until most casual players just give up and the game starts gearing more toward the hardcore human bots. The company responding to what they see as the cry of so many of there player base respond trying to make them happy.

It is at this point that games start to see decline as players flock toward new games in droves trying to escape the cycle. WoW so far seems to be breaking this I hope STO and cryptic follow suit.

[Fluxion]

We should not see the game full of the biggest and baddest ship one year from now. I would hope those ships would be limited in numbers and awarded to those Captains that have earned them.

Ways to earn one of the best ships.

Be a group leader that tends to win.
Tend to win at PVP


Oy. Not again. :rolleyes:

[manadarken]

I've said this in several threads:
Being awarded a ship for reaching a rank is honestly complete bunk.

-Players should be allowed to build their ship after they receive their first one
ie. When you receive a higher rank you have the ability to buy better parts for your ship such as an entirely new frame (being a bigger one with a different design)
-Players should be able to upgrade speed, maneuverability, torpedo options, phaser options and several other aspects of their ships.
-I rock :cool:

[manadarken]

It just seems like a player just being "rewarded" a ship is really lazy. My idea takes a tad bit of time and effort. Some people could turn it into a defensive ship. Others completely offensive. Or even a well-rounded ship. I just would like to see something like that implemented.

[DocMWood]

"It's an effective business policy to reward players who have spent more time on a game. "

Alright, time out for a second.

Let's think about this without any preconceived notions from any other games. Because do we just want to attract gamers from World of Warcraft for a few weeks until they go back, or do you want to attract the Star Trek fan base and have a game that will keep them (not random MMORG players) paying out $15 a month. You need two different strategies depending on which group you want.

If you want hard-core gamers, by all means construct the game like WoW or other successful business models. The game will probably be as successful as Eve Online, and gameplay will be about the same.

Or, one could take a look at the Star Trek fan base, and develop a game around their needs. Heck, I can see demand for a server where you have to speak Klingon if playing Klingons, for example. Ultimately, that game would have to focus more on social aspects than elite status due to lots of grinding. I'd argue that in that sort of model, individual players would have smaller ships at their personal disposal (Danube class, for example, for solo exploration, much like was seen in the show even), but from the get go should have opportunities to work on larger ships. If you're going to be on a big ship, you're going to have to be social and work with a team. Perhaps that wouldn't work, or perhaps there would be a better model out there somewhere, but the core to keeping the Star Trek fans paying $15 a month is going to be focusing on social aspects of the game, not combat or who has the biggest ship.

I would also argue that if the needs of the Star Trek fan base could be met, you would have an exceptionally successful business model. These are folks that have spent over $40,000 on a flute that doesn't even play, have spent years learning a language that doesn't exist, supported a grassroots effort for conventions, and in many other ways spent time, money and effort in building a social connection to other people that want to connect to the Star Trek experience. Invest in the aspects of social connections and experiencing the Star Trek universe, and you'll get a good return. Invest only in the game...well, there are lots of examples where companies have failed because they thought the name was enough to sell.

Break any old ideas about what it is to be a successful business practice. Look at your target audience, build a model around that, then feel free to use parts from any of those old ideas if they work for your new model. Do that, and you'll be rewarded with years of having a faithful, devoted, stable and reliable subscription base.

Thanks for listening! :cool:

[Jaxston]

While I agree that the best in game items (ship etc) should not only be for those that can play 10 + hours per day, I do think that there should be a reward vs effort idea. The guy who logs in and plays for 20 minuted every other day should not have access to the same things the guy that logs in every day for a couple hours.

It really just needs to be reasonable, just for the love of god do not make it so you can't have a real life to get the good stuff, but at the same time a reasonable amount of effort would be required.

:confused:

[mezlabor]

While I agree that the best in game items (ship etc) should not only be for those that can play 10 + hours per day, I do think that there should be a reward vs effort idea. The guy who logs in and plays for 20 minuted every other day should not have access to the same things the guy that logs in every day for a couple hours.

It really just needs to be reasonable, just for the love of god do not make it so you can't have a real life to get the good stuff, but at the same time a reasonable amount of effort would be required
:confused:
noone is saying it shouldnt take effort to get the best ships. What we're arguing agaisnt are excesivly bad time sinks that require playing 18 hours a day.

I dont need to dedicate all my spare time to playing city of but i am still able to enjoy everything that games has to offer.

[Flixi]

Hi guys,

I agree, the better an item is, the more you have to do for it.

But please don't go the WoW way, which is the following:

You have to go 10 times into Raid A to get to Raid B.
In Raid B you need 20 times of Raiding to get your item
100 times of Raiding to get the full gear

In Raid B you HAVE TO equip yourself with full gear or noone lets you go on Raid C

Once in Raid C you are so exhausted from Raiding that your wife and kids suffer from that.

But your Raidleader is stronger than your family ... he forces you to go on to Raid D, with even more Raids per week.

And finally after 2 years of raiding only 4 (in words: FOUR) instances, you have your cool item.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
This is WoW, and this is how i don't want it to be in STO
-------------------------------------------------------------------



STO should focus on casuals more
Cool missions and Raids should be accessable for casuals
Casuals will take longer to get there, while hardcores will get there more quickly
Don't force ANY player to grind a dungeon or whatelse to get on in content
Make Reputation grinding and such optional for those who want the rewards from there
but give out equal rewards throughout long rows of missions
once more: Casuals take longer, Powergamers do it more quickly
Once more: Content is for all, EVEN for casuals, not only for Powergamers
Powergamers can have their fun being far beyond the other players
Casuals can have their fun by unlocking new content step by step
Best Spaceships are earlier available to Powergamers
Don't make the game around itemization
Make the game around story, missions and STAR TREK
take a look at Lotro and you will see, that's a good casual concept

[mezlabor]

Its called REAL LIFE!! Noone hands you anything in real life just because you think you are entitled to it! You have to EARN IT! You work FOR IT!!


Its not its the opposite of real life its a game. I dont want my games becoming a second career. I have enough "work" to do at Work

[manadarken]

See my signature for what I think about this topic.

\"Ship Building"/

[DocMWood]

Elitist attitude? LOL mate...please....cry me a river.

Its called REAL LIFE!! Noone hands you anything in real life just because you think you are entitled to it! You have to EARN IT! You work FOR IT!!

Hmmm...well, I would have to differ. Sometimes in real life, you are just handed something, entitled to it or not. We've all seen kids handed the keys to an expensive sports car, not because they did anything to earn it or to be entitled to it, but just because someone else thought they should have it. Not saying it's right, mind you, but if we're going to play "REAL LIFE," well there you go. Sometimes people really are handed things just because, and as long as we're going to imagine flying in space, I can imagine that too.

Still, most of us play games or spend time thinking about Star Trek because, for a while, we're escaping "real life." I have plenty of that, and at the end of a busy day I don't really want more "real life," especially one that resembles "work life." I'll be shelling out $15/month for a chance to have a very UREAL LIFE or somesuch. If I'm going to have to spend 10 hrs/day for months, why not just stay at work? No, I don't think folks are adverse to some effort, but it needs to be a level of effort attainable by casual players. Folks into Star Trek are going to want to fly a Galaxy-class starship at some point in time, and they're not going to have the patience to spend time like a hard-core gamer will to "unlock" the prize. The focus of many Star Trek fans will not be on the game itself (though the mechanics should not be ignored because of it), but on other players and the chance to explore strange new worlds. Content, especially the ships, should have a low threshold to cross to get to them.

Besides, even on the show some of the folks on the Enterprise were first-term assignments.

[ReynoldsXD]

awarded to those that deserve them


People who sit all day in their basement grinding games shouldn't realy be awarded for doing that.

[CaptainQuirk]

While I disagree with awarding merit and advancement just for logging on I agree with everything else. Content restrictions that often end up being based solely on weather or not you have a life outside the game are not the way to go.

Oh, you'd have to do more than just log in. You'd actually have to run a real mission. And if they set things up the way I think they are going to, success or failure of all missions will have an effect on one's faction. So even if someone has time to run only one mission, then they have contributed.

As I see it, if the gameplay is fun enough, then the hardcore gamers should actually feel rewarded by the experience without the need of special rewards. If you ask me, these hardcore players expecting something special for the time they chose to put in stems from the fact that most MMOs have elements that are so mind-numbingly boring that the gameplay feels more painful than having bamboo splinters jammed under their fingernails. I can sympathise with that position.

But you want to know the real truth that they don't tell you? The majority of the so-called hardcore players actually are running AFK-macros and are either asleep, at work or otherwise occupied in real life while their character plays itself. I see it all the time. But the thing is that if the gameplay was fun and compelling enough, there would be a lot less AFK play.

[CaptainQuirk]

You guys want to know the BEST reason for putting casual and hardcore gamers on the same advancement curve?

It would mean that everyone who has at least played the game an equal amount of time (as in days or months of activity) would all be capable of journeying together. Whereas in the typical MMO model, the casual players seem to take forever getting leveled, while everyone else is so far ahead that they cannot effectively play together...

This is why Star Wars Galaxies had the best approach when it first came out in terms of player advancelemt. Even a brand new character could travel with an advanced character and actually contribute... even benefit from the company. The early days of that game produced NO elitist players.

What this game needs is a system that introduced symbiosis between all playstyles. Where everyone needs someone else for something, and the more people who come together for mutual benefit, the stronger the bonds of community...

Elements that encourage elitism destroy the spirit community.

Saying "I play more than you so I deserve more than you" is just like saying "I make more money than you, so I am better than you". We are all equal in this life, when you strip all the superficial elements away. A better paying job does not equate superiority. I've seen rich people strung out on dope while a poor person remains clean. The poor person is now tempted to say, "look at you. I'm better than that," but the truth is that a poor person can get just as caught up in a bad situation...

So I would prefer that STO be an MMO that truly gives equal opportunity for everyone, regardless of how much free time they have in real life. The Bottom line commonality between ALL players is that they will all be paying the same amount of money for this game. And as long as all gameplay is based on a flat-rate subscription fee, then no person has the right to suggest that they are entitled to anything more than anyone else.

If you payed by the minute or by the hour, then there would be validity to the "I put in more time so I deserve more" argument. But with a flat rate, putting in the long hours (assuming you are actually playing and not running a macro while you are sleeping or working) is a matter of personal choice. Nobody made you do anything.

[xiphias]

You guys want to know the BEST reason for putting casual and hardcore gamers on the same advancement curve?

It would mean that everyone who has at least played the game an equal amount of time (as in days or months of activity) would all be capable of journeying together. Whereas in the typical MMO model, the casual players seem to take forever getting leveled, while everyone else is so far ahead that they cannot effectively play together...

This is why Star Wars Galaxies had the best approach when it first came out in terms of player advancelemt. Even a brand new character could travel with an advanced character and actually contribute... even benefit from the company. The early days of that game produced NO elitist players.

What this game needs is a system that introduced symbiosis between all playstyles. Where everyone needs someone else for something, and the more people who come together for mutual benefit, the stronger the bonds of community...

Elements that encourage elitism destroy the spirit community.

Saying "I play more than you so I deserve more than you" is just like saying "I make more money than you, so I am better than you". We are all equal in this life, when you strip all the superficial elements away. A better paying job does not equate superiority. I've seen rich people strung out on dope while a poor person remains clean. The poor person is now tempted to say, "look at you. I'm better than that," but the truth is that a poor person can get just as caught up in a bad situation...

So I would prefer that STO be an MMO that truly gives equal opportunity for everyone, regardless of how much free time they have in real life. The Bottom line commonality between ALL players is that they will all be paying the same amount of money for this game. And as long as all gameplay is based on a flat-rate subscription fee, then no person has the right to suggest that they are entitled to anything more than anyone else.

If you payed by the minute or by the hour, then there would be validity to the "I put in more time so I deserve more" argument. But with a flat rate, putting in the long hours (assuming you are actually playing and not running a macro while you are sleeping or working) is a matter of personal choice. Nobody made you do anything.

This post wins.

[knight1b]

This post wins.

I agree with this 100%

[CinC-UFPForces-Cardassia]

Okay... You say no to Sovereigns being all over the place. I am fine with this. In fact, I am perfectly fine for this. I would find it amazing if there was an actual Promotions Board that will decide if you are ready for advancment in rank (even though, we all know that this is highly improbable). No rank = no bigger ship.

THEN, Who will decide who gets those few capital ships? Are you all, again, asking for a game that caters to the ultra hardcore? Count me out then. I have too much to do with my life than take on some 18 year old for a ship.

This game will be in a constant struggle to appease those 12 hour-a-day-gamers and those who play 2-3 at most.

Swiftus, I'd recommend you reread my post. What you've interpreted it to mean is, in fact, the exact opposite of what I meant. Did you only read the first paragraph?

[Swiftus27]

I never said that I was in disagreement.

I am just continuing your conversation path.

Me = person against rewarding the hardcore gamers.

But, I know that they will kick and scream until they get their way.

[CinC-UFPForces-Cardassia]

I never said that I was in disagreement.

I am just continuing your conversation path.

Me = person against rewarding the hardcore gamers.

But, I know that they will kick and scream until they get their way.

Well, no, that doesn't constitute "continuing my path of conversation." And not that I'm particularly cheesed about it, but you did write your post under the assumption that I was suggesting certain players should be favored over others. Which was not the case.

But to attack others for "kicking and screaming" doesn't constitute "continuing [my] path of conversation," because I was emphasizing the importance of treating equally all playstyles - hardcore and casual included. Let's not overreact to the fact that we're having the discussion, which certainly doesn't constitute "kicking and screaming." Particularly when it results in misinterpreting what other posters are saying.

So, again, to be clear: if you pay the $15, you deserve all the content.

[buckarama]

Well, no, that doesn't constitute "continuing my path of conversation." And not that I'm particularly cheesed about it, but you did write your post under the assumption that I was suggesting certain players should be favored over others. Which was not the case.

But to attack others for "kicking and screaming" doesn't constitute "continuing [my] path of conversation," because I was emphasizing the importance of treating equally all playstyles - hardcore and casual included. Let's not overreact to the fact that we're having the discussion, which certainly doesn't constitute "kicking and screaming." Particularly when it results in misinterpreting what other posters are saying.

So, again, to be clear: if you pay the $15, you deserve all the content.


I couldn't agree more with this post.

[manadarken]

I'd just have to say look at my signature again and click on "SHIP BUILDING". I think this would resolve any arguements that would ensue on this topic.

[DocMWood]

Well, no, that doesn't constitute "continuing my path of conversation." And not that I'm particularly cheesed about it, but you did write your post under the assumption that I was suggesting certain players should be favored over others. Which was not the case.

But to attack others for "kicking and screaming" doesn't constitute "continuing [my] path of conversation," because I was emphasizing the importance of treating equally all playstyles - hardcore and casual included. Let's not overreact to the fact that we're having the discussion, which certainly doesn't constitute "kicking and screaming." Particularly when it results in misinterpreting what other posters are saying.

So, again, to be clear: if you pay the $15, you deserve all the content.

Add me to the "agree" side on this one. You want hardcore gamers for building the buzz, but the longterm success for this game will reside with casual gamers who have been watching Star Trek for 40 years, and will likewise pay $15 per month as long as they're having fun being able to explore the Star Trek universe on their own terms.

[mezlabor]

Add me to the "agree" side on this one. You want hardcore gamers for building the buzz, but the longterm success for this game will reside with casual gamers who have been watching Star Trek for 40 years, and will likewise pay $15 per month as long as they're having fun being able to explore the Star Trek universe on their own terms.

yep. I agree completly. All mmos are supported by their casual base. baring casuals from certain ships in a Sartrek mmo is a really bad idea imo

[Kiemye]

That's just your opinion.
There are many people who enjoy crafting. I used to run my own mini business empire on SWG, it was fun :)

Exactly! I had a wonderful business in SWG that I ran on Shadowfire. I had characters that I used for fighting, exploration, and crafting.

[DocMWood]

Originally Posted by Keo
That's just your opinion.
There are many people who enjoy crafting. I used to run my own mini business empire on SWG, it was fun Exactly! I had a wonderful business in SWG that I ran on Shadowfire. I had characters that I used for fighting, exploration, and crafting.

I do think there would be a role for crafting in STO. Think of the competitive nature Geordi LaForge had with how he tinkered with the Enterprise's engines compared to other engineers. Likewise, if I can "craft" to improve a phaser so it works better/longer/more effectively against Borg...well, I think folks can see how that would be a worthwhile experience in STO.

[Fadde]

if everyone can try to get them not just people who have 70 hrs a week toplay then yes i could see limited ship as rewards. Not for doing lots of missions or space or something. Should be some kind of raid quest but not too many prequests to go on raid.

[Zyrious]

There should be no such thing as "Most Powerful" ships. There is a reason the navy and in this case, starfleet, makes different classes of ships, instead of just mass producing that one type. Each is has its own advantages/disadvantages. The Akira is a missile boat, it can carry and fire large amounts of photon/quantom torpedo's and it still has a good base speed.The Intrepid class is a very fast ship and highly manuverable, less likely to get hit and can be upgraded with stronger shields. It is however limited in torpedo's and phaser banks. The Sovereign class is the closest you get to a full blown battleship. Strong Armor, large amount of phaserbanks, average amount of photon/quantom torpedo's, Strong shields and secondary shields, etc. etc., but requires a large crew, not the most nimble ship in the fleet, it's size and speed lends it to getting hit a lot. Etc. Etc.

There should be no "The ultimate ship". Ranking up should only allow you access to a greater birth of classes of ship, and also allow you access to more upgrades you can apply to your own ship or whatever ship you switch to. Maybe newer ships have a better base stats on some cases, but have limited upgrades. But dont make it where everyone is aiming for the same ship or set of ships.

[knight1b]

if everyone can try to get them not just people who have 70 hrs a week toplay then yes i could see limited ship as rewards. Not for doing lots of missions or space or something. Should be some kind of raid quest but not too many prequests to go on raid.

Ahh you said the magic word raid. Raids are where the gap starts really never put anything behind a raid raids should be cool but never a requirement to get something and this is why.

Raids may start small simple manageable events for all. But quickly you will find hard core players devouring them whole and then asking for more then demanding more then kicking screaming and saying give me more now and screw everyone else. This starts a bad cycle. First the devs respond by giving them more content after all thats a good thing for everyone. But then it gets harder and harder to keep pace just making more. So now it becomes harder content and then even thats not enough and you get harder and longer content.

And often that is one of the points things go down hill. These harder longer raids tend to offer better rewards remember a key mmo function that STO will likely include by default risk vs reward. As the raids get harder and take longer this is where the break down tends to happen. No longer can everyone take part in them Raids become something for the elite Those with the 10 hours a day or more to take part in long encounters. They start getting better stuff and the feeling of entitlement to more than anyone else due to the fact that basically treat the game as a job sets in.

My vision of Raids are large scale multifaceted events with rewards for everyone who takes part weather its warping in for an hour to help fight off a Borg invasion then you have to go or if its standing your ground for 10 grueling hours slagging it out. Rewards could include resource or prestige gains of some sort. But should never be directly tied into content access or game advancement.

[jason1275]

The type of ship you are allowed to be the "captain" should depend on your rank. A Cadet should not, for example, be permitted to obtain/buy a Galaxy class starship.

Gaining ranks through PvE and PvP should be how the ships become available to you, and there could be special ships only available to those who perfer to either PvE or PvP. But for the most part all ships should be available to the player to purchase IF their rank will allow it.

Then it's up to the player to customize/upgrade the ship to make it "good".

[Tristan_Sierras]

Don't be hogging those Galaxy and Intrepid Class ships... remember that in TNG and Voyager, those ships got to be the cream of the crop thanks to either the Chief Engineer, or some odd phenomenon they encountered along the way... It would be odd for Starfleet to NOT make an armada of "the best" ships... They're "the best" for a reason, they're effective in what they do. If there's gonna be limited ships, I could see named ships maybe, or prototype ships, but these things are manufactured by Starfleet, there's no reason for them to be "rare".

Either that, or make certain upgrades to the ship rare, I dunno... I mean, I do hope I don't see a billion ships labeled the "USS Enterprise", or variations there of (Inturprize, Enterpryze, Enterprize, 1nterpr1z0rz, etc), but my favorite ship classes are Galaxy and Intrepid, and I will greedily whine about not being able to have those in the most biased way possible if I can't eventually fly one without having to spend six hours a day for a month just to fly one for a week. X)

[CharlesNPG]

Their are only so many ships of the line, other people are bound to have the same ship you do. And like its been said before Starfleet isn't only going to build one good ship and then thousands of inferior vessels. I hope each ship has its strengths and weaknesses, because it seams like most people who want this are the 'hardcore' enthusiasts who are going to play hours on end each day.

And frankly I do not care for them or their kind, most people like me can't afford or want to spend their entire life on the computer. We have jobs and commitments we must keep, but we also want to have just as much fun as the people who spend their life online in STO. I can understand that certain classes of ships should be earned more then given, but their has to be a good balance between the requirements so both the hardcore and casual crowds can enjoy. And the truth of the matter is we all will pay the same amount of money to play the game, so if you want to whine about how you will spend so much more time dedicated to the experience... please shut up.

[Swiftus27]

Okay, sorry if I upset anyone earlier...

1. People say that they deserve the same content since they pay the same amount.
2. We know the argument is that everything must be earned.

How do we all create a system that will give those non-hardcore gamers what they seek while giving all involved the same sense of accomplishment?

Perhaps you make it less about the ships and more about the crew?

[mezlabor]

Okay, sorry if I upset anyone earlier...

1. People say that they deserve the same content since they pay the same amount.
2. We know the argument is that everything must be earned.

How do we all create a system that will give those non-hardcore gamers what they seek while giving all involved the same sense of accomplishment?

Perhaps you make it less about the ships and more about the crew?
By making all content accessible with effort but without exclusionary time sinks that favor those who do nothingbut play games. By getting rid of the NEED for large guilds to accomplish the high end content.
Basically what I propsoe is say a series of missions to unlock a certain class of ship that can be constructed at your fleets shipyard. Now those of us who can dedicate 18 hours a day would get that first, where as the rest of us would be able to get it but not as fast. TBH I am not sure how this is going to play out since we know that flets can build shipyards which would lead us to assume you can build your ships at your shipyard...

[CharlesNPG]

I think it will be achieved through the ship customization, those players that enjoy spending hours in game (nothing against them, just not my style) will probably be more prone to earn and or find those amazing upgrades or strike a deal with that far flung civilization.

And us casuals will be content with our more run of the mill galaxies or intrepids or god knows what.

[Swiftus27]

MY DREAM:

Players who play a ton can't simply gank everyone else into oblivion.

I just say TAKE THE EMPHASIS OFF OF LEVELLING!!!!

How many of us players can they retain by NOT making this into another grind fest?
How many people still pay for EvE accounts so they can continue to train even though they rarely play?

I think the dilemma that goes unrealized is that no one has or will do a study asking how many people leave because they can never achieve any results because they can't afford to spend all of their time playing.

[vp21ct]

MY DREAM:

Players who play a ton can't simply gank everyone else into oblivion.

I just say TAKE THE EMPHASIS OFF OF LEVELLING!!!!

How many of us players can they retain by NOT making this into another grind fest?
How many people still pay for EvE accounts so they can continue to train even though they rarely play?

I think the dilemma that goes unrealized is that no one has or will do a study asking how many people leave because they can never achieve any results because they can't afford to spend all of their time playing.

NO GANKing

[PartWelsh]

I like the idea that these should be a limited thing. I hate to bring up the monolith of the market in a comparison but we all remember the pre-drums of wars days of WoW. Yes, this was limited to PvP but what you had was a rank based leaderboard based on your performance that week in comparison to the top performing player. Whilst this system did favour those that had the time to invest, it didn't punish those who didn't too harshly, all it meant was a slower progression. Once you obtained certain ranks you were eligible to purchase certain weapons and armour that was deemmed most powerful. Those that obtained the highest accolades were well respected on the server which provided a great sense of community and despite the flaws in the system. It worked.

Personally I'd rather have it that the class of the ship isn't as important as many of you expect it will be. I would prefer not to advance through ship class, I believe that I'd be happiest flying a ship that suits my playstyle than serves my ego to be the big guy in the big ship. I would want to be flying the smaller, more agile ships, employing hit-and-run tactics and using my brains to win a fight than the size of my phaser banks. At 'end game' I still want to be in the X Class ship that I started serving on at X level and have refined over the progression of my career. That to me has a more unique feel to it in an MMO that CS are always inclined to produce.

[knight1b]

Well lets think about how class effects things in Star Trek. The main effects are maneuverability firepower overall available power and so on. Some examples.

Oberth class ships can genearly only fill a role at a time Normaly as a science ship.

Galaxy class ships are larger and can fill both war and peace time roles without the need to refit. So lets look at this in terms of size or close to it.

Oberth - Geared toward sci missions

Miranda- The middle ground multirole

Defiant - Warship


Excelsior- Sci ship

Galaxy - Multirole

Sovereign - warship

*Note I know these groupings are not 100% correct just doing this quickly I am one of those people that has to work after all heh*

So it may be that players will chose a ship to fit there playstyle rather than having super high end ships. One can hope this will be the case.

[Debaser]

Hi everyone! I'm new to the STO forums. I'd like to chime in on this topic, even though alot has been said both ways by this point. As sort of an introduction,I'd like to share my MMORPG experience, so you know where I'm coming from.

Firstly, I'm 33, and while I wouldn't call myself a "trekkie", I do consider myself a lifelong fan of Trek (and sci-fi/fantasy in general) My first MMORPG experience was with WoW. I never played any of the other warcraft games, so I wasn't up on the lore and history, but I fell in love with the game. not only the graphics, storylines or characters, but the whole social aspect of MMORPG's. Teaming up with people, fomring alliances, making friends (and enemies!), I view mmorpg's as a sort of microcosm of the real world.

When I started playing WoW, I lived in an apartment I shared with a buddy, and I had a girlfriend. She was a nurse wo worked alot of evening shifts, so even though we spent what time we could together, I still had a number of free nights to play. And on those nights I would play for anywhere from 6-10 hours. Anyways, time went on, my girlfriend got pregnant, and for the first few months she was always tired, so she would come over and hang out and end up falling alseep. About this time, I hooked up with a good guild that was starting to get into raiding, so I spent alot of time doing that.

...More time goes by,now my girlfriend and I are married, and we have a young son. She starts complaining that I spend too much time on WoW so I compromise, I would get a 2 or 3 nights a week to raid, the rest of the time I wouldn't play. That worked but not for too long. Any WoW player will tell you raiding consumes alot of resources that need to be farmed for. So now it wasn't just enough that I could raid, the guild (and the game) required more of my time so that i was contributing to the raid, rather than just showing up.

Around this time, they rolled out the BC expansion. I had to wait a couple days after release to get my hands on a copy. When I finally install the game I see the majority of my guild has powergrinded to 70 already. From then on, considering my play time was cut was way down, I could never keep up. With the new raid numbers, guilds didn't need everyone to show up, so people started getting excluded for various and sundry reasons, one of those being time spent in game.

So basically I got left out of everything. By this time, me and my wife now have our own house, and all the time/money commitments that go with it. Internal drama destoys my guild and everyone goes their seperate ways, off to new guilds or servers. I had been with that guild for so long that once everyone left, I pretty much knew no one, and it's hard to make new friends/alliances when everyone else is entrenced in their own guilds/groups.

My brother started playing WoW, and since he's new to the game and computers in general, i started some alts to play with him. Since he has his own kids and doesn't play till they go to sleep, our gametime is pretty much restricted to late nights, after the kids are asleep and the day to day stuff that goes with family and owning a home are taken care of.

So that brings us to the present. I play maybe a couple of hours a night, usually late (midnight-ish), and I play alts. My mains are collecting dust. I cant raid or even group with people because by now my gear is obsolete, and everyone wants geared players.

But I still play, because I love the game.

Now thins brings us to the topic at hand (sorry for being so long winded, it doesn't happen often!)

By current standards, I'm a casual, but I consider myself "hardcore" simply for my love of the game. I want to see all the content and get all the loots that any "hardcore" player does, why should I be excluded? Because I have a job, and responsibilities? Because I want my son to know more of me than the back of my head? It's been said a number of times already, but if I pay the same monthly fee as a hardcore, I expect to get access to the same stuff.

Look at it this way:

(harcore gamer walks into burger joint)

HG: Hi I'd like a double cheesburger please.

Clerk: I'm sorry sir, you don't have access to that burger.

HG: What do you mean I don't have access? That guy in the next line just bought two of them!

Clerk Yes sir he did.

HG: So what's the problem? I'm paying the same 2.50 a burger that he is, why cant I have it too?

Clerk: Well you see sir, that customer is in here 4 times a week, and he always spends at least 45 minutes eating in teh resteraunt. You, on the other hand, we haven't seen here in like, 2 months. So if you start coming in here more, you can maybe get that double cheesburger, but tiill then you have to make due with the girlyburger.


-------------------
Not the best analogy, but you get the idea, right? Doesn't seem very fair.

Harcores get what they want alot of the time only because they ***** the loudest. The average casual could care less, as long as they can keep playing a game they enjoy, teh way they enjoy it. I think casuals are more in it for the expeirence, where as hardcores don't really care what game it is, as long as they're the best at it. Obviuosly I'm generalizing, as there is all kinds of people on both sides of the debate, but hey, this is all just my opinion anyways, not like it's written in stone.

As for how the game will handle the issue, I'll stick to personal specultions, keep reading these forums, and just wait and see, I'm still going to play the game either way, because it'll be sweet.

[Swiftus27]

^^^

I disagree with you last paragraph.

Many casual gamers have flocked away from MMOs because of this. I think that the DEVs of all these games are starting to realize that it is better to keep 10 content paying players than a few hardcore people who flood their forums with gripes.

[MajorD]

SNIP
The simple solution is to make sure gear has a low importance in gameplay, and make sure the real factor is experience. That way, there might be someone with the best kit, and it will help, and they'll have fun having it, but as long as it isn't the basis of power, just a buff of sorts, someone of the same level with baseline equipment will still be just as useful.

In City of Heroes, which I think STO will take a lot of cues from, originally all you could buy were costume items, and little booster items to slightly buff your powers in certain ways, such as giving them faster recharge, or high attack. In the beginning of gameplay, those boosters have only slight effect and are relatively expensive, later on you can buy all you need and they have greater effect, no matter the level they have to be replaced once you're five levels ahead of their base level. The hardcore players wouldn't search for the best items, they experimented for the best power to choose at which level and which booster loadouts have the best effect. But beyond that, no one could tell if your powers were chosen after hours of experimentation, as long as you were the same level as someone else, it really came down to if you're any good using your character and if you're fun to play with. Later on, they introduced temporary purchasable powers, which were pretty cool, but didn't take the focus away from optimizing power choices.

So, if they limit how many upgrades to ships you can make, and keep most items aesthetic, then maximizing players will depend on your class, racial traits, and abilities you choose, not spending twenty hours straight slogging through a dungeon world with a team of fifty players to get the Golden Phaser Array of Frost Doom Destiny +10.

[Sinclair]

I agree with the general point of the OP, but I don't think the answer is to limit ships just to limit ships.

SWG tried that approach with Jedi and the way they implemented it was just horrible. Level up a character in different skills over and over, just to delete it and start over again anyone? Horrible game grind design.

STO would do well to follow in EVE's footsteps I think. EVE does a good job of balancing ship size with ship function. Smaller ships cannot stand up against big ones for long, but on the other hand larger ships have a lot of trouble hitting the quicker more agile smaller ships. POTBS may be another example of this. Ship classes can be designed to have a niche and hence be vialbe at all level ranges. The question is will the STO dev team take the time to do that for STO, or just put out bigger and badder ships.

[Swiftus27]

I agree with the general point of the OP, but I don't think the answer is to limit ships just to limit ships.

SWG tried that approach with Jedi and the way they implemented it was just horrible. Level up a character in different skills over and over, just to delete it and start over again anyone? Horrible game grind design.

STO would do well to follow in EVE's footsteps I think. EVE does a good job of balancing ship size with ship function. Smaller ships cannot stand up against big ones for long, but on the other hand larger ships have a lot of trouble hitting the quicker more agile smaller ships. POTBS may be another example of this. Ship classes can be designed to have a niche and hence be vialbe at all level ranges. The question is will the STO dev team take the time to do that for STO, or just put out bigger and badder ships.

To be more like EvE and less like POTBS, instanced combat could not exist.

[Kinjiru]

To be more like EvE and less like POTBS, instanced combat could not exist.

I don't follow how instanced combat fits into his analogy.

He's talking about the fact that in both ExE and PotBS, smaller, more agile ships can be outfitted to stay current and important with and/or against larger ships.

In fact, I was in a PvP battle in PotBS with a friend of mine, we were both level 16 pirates. He was attacked just inside a PvP zone by a level 34 Spanish Naval officer in a much larger, better armed Frigate. I joined the battle seconds after he was attacked.

Our smaller ships were faster, and by working together, we were able to damage his sails enough so that my friend boarded him. We actually won that battle, and had really big heads until we attacked a lvl 40 NPC that handed our asses to us.

The point is that in two smaller ships, we were able to work together to beat a much larger, better armed ship.

I think that that was what Sinclair was trying to say.

[Swiftus27]

You really couldn't have a low level ship and survive. The gank squads make it impossible. It is next to impossible to get away too.

I am just referring to their combat style versus what was in EvE. I liked being able to get away in EvE. PoTBS was just awful.

Yes, but that game forced people to never travel alone. That is against everything ST is about. RARELY would ships travel with another.

sorry if my last point was a tad disjointed... i am so overly tired that I can't sleep.

[Kinjiru]

You really couldn't have a low level ship and survive. The gank squads make it impossible. It is next to impossible to get away too.

I am just referring to their combat style versus what was in EvE. I liked being able to get away in EvE. PoTBS was just awful.

Yes, but that game forced people to never travel alone. That is against everything ST is about. RARELY would ships travel with another.

sorry if my last point was a tad disjointed... i am so overly tired that I can't sleep.

Ahh, I understand. Getting late. :)

I think the not being able to run issue might have been more your profession choice, versus mine. Pirates had some really nifty speed boosts available, and the fact that since we were such low level, we only skirted the PvP zones whenever possible.

I can honestly say that I enjoyed the ship combat in PotBS, but by the time I had my Pirate to lvl 30 and my Naval Officer to lvl 35, I was thoroughly bored with the game. And by that time, I was in a society and we never went into a PvP zone without a full group.

[Deadzone]

Okay, sorry if I upset anyone earlier...

1. People say that they deserve the same content since they pay the same amount.
2. We know the argument is that everything must be earned.

How do we all create a system that will give those non-hardcore gamers what they seek while giving all involved the same sense of accomplishment?

Perhaps you make it less about the ships and more about the crew?

All the people will NOT get what they want..no matter if they pay money or not. STO is not perfect-land. Just because you want it will NOT mean you will get it.

Again, let me reitterate that phrase...WANT=/=GET (want does not equal get).

Cryptic said that the high end ships will only be available to guilds. They will have to be built BY the players and you will need MANY players to build the infrastructurebefore you even get to the ship.

So right off the bat every single person in the game will not own a Galaxy class ship, just by default. I am sorry but this is how it is and how it should be!! People will have to work and put in time and effort to get something that is powerful.

And we don't even know yet if there will be limit amounts on how many of these super-class ships a guild will be allowed to own.


And I'll say it again, if you people thnk you are entitled to the most powerful stuff just becasue you pay 15$ a month, then screw the coding for any other item or ship and just code for the biggest stuff right away and have it waiting for each person when they log in...that way you guys can play fantasy land without having to actually play.

God knows the game would be released a hell of a lot sooner without all that extra code in there.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Mook]

they said a while back that the big ships like enterprise wil be hubs places to get missions and so what. i dont no if the new makers of the game will still do this ?

[Kinjiru]

they said a while back that the big ships like enterprise wil be hubs places to get missions and so what. i dont no if the new makers of the game will still do this ?

That's old info from Perpetual's version. What Cryptic is doing is completely different.

[DocMWood]

So right off the bat every single person in the game will not own a Galaxy class ship, just by default. I am sorry but this is how it is and how it should be!! People will have to work and put in time and effort to get something that is powerful.
...
And I'll say it again, if you people thnk you are entitled to the most powerful stuff just becasue you pay 15$ a month, then screw the coding for any other item or ship and just code for the biggest stuff right away and have it waiting for each person when they log in...that way you guys can play fantasy land without having to actually play.

Why shouldn't people have a Galaxy class right off the bat. You say that like it's a bad thing.

As far as "you guys can play fantasy land," um, well it is play and fantasy, sorta by definition.... I thought that was the point.

[phujitiv]

I imagine in my mind a pyramid that has levels which represent ships and how hard they are to get. At the top of the pyramid are the best ships which only the ones with elite skills through time could get. At the bottom of the pyramid are all the beginner and easy ships of which there are many.

[LivingHellfire]

Why shouldn't people have a Galaxy class right off the bat. You say that like it's a bad thing.

As far as "you guys can play fantasy land," um, well it is play and fantasy, sorta by definition.... I thought that was the point.

Well, it kinda would be a bad thing. What would you have to look forward to?

I think very few of us are actually considering or even desiring being handed a Galaxy class starship right off the bat. I can tell you right now that that's the last thing I want. I'd rather be handed some piddly light frigate with a crew of 16 and learn and explore and "become" the captain that I'm supposed to be as opposed to simply being handed a flagship class vessel.

That being said, when I max out my rank and am at the end game, I expect Sovereign class vessels to be at my relatively easy disposal, and furthermore there better not be only 6 or something per server. I don't mind having to work a little bit to get there, as long as the work involves content completion and very little grinding.

Obviously nobody's expecting to be handed the biggest, meanest, most powerful ship in the fleet right away, but I'm going to be really, really turned off if getting a top-tier ship means hours and hours of grinding or PvP or something.

[DocMWood]

Well, it kinda would be a bad thing. What would you have to look forward to?

I think very few of us are actually considering or even desiring being handed a Galaxy class starship right off the bat. I can tell you right now that that's the last thing I want. I'd rather be handed some piddly light frigate with a crew of 16 and learn and explore and "become" the captain that I'm supposed to be as opposed to simply being handed a flagship class vessel.

That being said, when I max out my rank and am at the end game, I expect Sovereign class vessels to be at my relatively easy disposal, and furthermore there better not be only 6 or something per server. I don't mind having to work a little bit to get there, as long as the work involves content completion and very little grinding.

Obviously nobody's expecting to be handed the biggest, meanest, most powerful ship in the fleet right away, but I'm going to be really, really turned off if getting a top-tier ship means hours and hours of grinding or PvP or something.

:) Nope, I don't think many are expecting to be handed the keys to a Galaxy class right off the bat, but like you I would not like to see only a few in the hands of the most powerful...I agree that if someone goes through the content, they should have access. There should be a bar, but it should be achievable by all.

Heck, I'm just looking foward to a runabout and being able to explore the galaxy!

"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it." -- Robert E. Lee

[ReynoldsXD]

What would you have to look forward to?

Uhm? Flying with my galaxy, exploring strange new worlds?
Instead of grinding things to get the right to fly it?

[LebowskyBob]

im sorry but for those who do not have enough time to do all of that would miss out on the ships soooo im not going to agree on this idea.

everyone should get the ship they want to fly (unless it is really old like Constitution class and the others of that era)

Speaking as one of those people who DOES NOT have enough time - yes I have a job, and other games i like to play - I rather like the idea presented in the op. Why? If I'm going to fly around in the 25th centuries version of the Sovereign/Negh'Var then I want to have worked my butt off for it. The reason being that even in the shows the captains in command of such ships had to work hard for it as well.

Jean-Luc Picard, for example, was captain of the Stargazer for TWENTY YEARS, and turned down at least one promotion to admiral, before being given a galaxy class ship. Are mmo players better than one of the greatest captain Star Fleet has ever produced simply because they can't put as much time in as the "gimme gimme crowd" of hard-core mmo players?

[Stormnet]

Wow Hot topic. The answer has been stated over and over...To those uber hardcore players the same thing will happen that always happens. You'll get to the endgame in 4 weeks and have your uber ship and then quit when the game is boring to you (Approx 8 weeks) and the rest of us will enjoy the game and eventually get our uber ships as well about the same time new content is updated.

Uber players will grind out a game until the next game comes out. 1 Million players come in, 8 weeks later 300-400k drop the game, what's left are people that really enjoy the game.

I bet in this case many will stay. I'm planning on it.

[Harddrive]

I agree with the prevailing opinion here. Achievements must be earned. It means nothing to have a ship unless you work for it. It is unfair to those who have been in the game, done the missions, earned prestige and progressed only to see a "gimme, gimme" person not do anything and get the same rewards. People that expect something for nothing are grossly selfish and probably werent spanked enough as children.

Now you know my opinion about that, one other thing. People are all saying that all the ships should be upgradable, I agree, within reason. To be realisitc there have to be structural limitations to a hull. A miranda class ship could never have as much power as a galaxy, an oberth could never have the shields of a nebula and so on. The structure just couldnt support it. I agree with the system in starfleet command III, give each ship a limited structural amount in each area and then let them customize in that area. That is the only REALISTIC and fair way to go about it.

[LivingHellfire]

Uhm? Flying with my galaxy, exploring strange new worlds?
Instead of grinding things to get the right to fly it?

RPGs are all about character. In a world like Star Trek and with an MMO for that name the actual ship that you command is part of your character as a starship captain. As you evolve so does the kind of ship that you command.

Being handed the command codes for a Galaxy (or Sovereign or Vor'Cha) class starship right out of the academy is a little silly.... but more importantly it eliminates any opportunity to grow as a character.

I'm not saying you should have to grind the **** out of the game to get one, but I don't think that you should be expecting to get one right away.

[CaptainQuirk]

Speaking as one of those people who DOES NOT have enough time - yes I have a job, and other games i like to play - I rather like the idea presented in the op. Why? If I'm going to fly around in the 25th centuries version of the Sovereign/Negh'Var then I want to have worked my butt off for it. The reason being that even in the shows the captains in command of such ships had to work hard for it as well.

But surely, as a casual player, you would not want an unrealistic degree of grind to be able to earn the "best" ship class in the fleet... Do you want your hardcore gaming friend to earn it in a week while it takes you a year? Because if time put in by the player merrits the rewards, then the hardcore gamers will have the best stuff way before anyone else. And they will rub it in everyone else's face. And the casual gamers who enjoy the game just as much but just don't have ten hours a day to play will suffer cancellations, as many will feel that it takes too long to achieve the things they are seeking to enjoy.

What needs to happen is for both the hardcore and casual players to be able to advance at the same pace, regardless of how much time they have to play. If my example were to be used, one prestige point could be earned per day for each day that any player logs in and successfully completes more missions than he fails, then he's earned his prestige point for the day. So if it costs 50 prestige to requisition a 25-th century equivilant of a Sovereign class ship, then regardless of whether a player is hardcore or casual, it will take at least 50 days to accumulate the needed prestige. And that isn't counting prerequisite qualifications.

To me, the fact that one is willing to put in tons of time per day into a game is an indicator of how much he or she enjoys that game. And I am of the mind that the enjoyment of playing should be reward enough. But that is just my opinion. The elitists will have a different view and will either ignore this as a solution or flame me for it...

So far, it isn't even being discussed. It WILL solve the issue by putting all PLAYERS on equal footing... Characters and ships will be superior or inferior based on how the players choose to spend the prestige they earn. So the question will become, "Do I want to spend my prestige to qualify for a better ship, or do I want to spend it on upgrades to make my current ship into the best it can be?"

Now ideally, a CO who channels his prestige into his current vessel should be able to achieve results that are comparable to a superior class ship in some ways... Even surpassing it in others.

[Stormnet]

But surely, as a casual player, you would not want an unrealistic degree of grind to be able to earn the "best" ship class in the fleet... Do you want your hardcore gaming friend to earn it in a week while it takes you a year? Because if time put in by the player merrits the rewards, then the hardcore gamers will have the best stuff way before anyone else. And they will rub it in everyone else's face. And the casual gamers who enjoy the game just as much but just don't have ten hours a day to play will suffer cancellations, as many will feel that it takes too long to achieve the things they are seeking to enjoy.

What needs to happen is for both the hardcore and casual players to be able to advance at the same pace, regardless of how much time they have to play. If my example were to be used, one prestige point could be earned per day for each day that any player logs in and successfully completes more missions than he fails, then he's earned his prestige point for the day. So if it costs 50 prestige to requisition a 25-th century equivilant of a Sovereign class ship, then regardless of whether a player is hardcore or casual, it will take at least 50 days to accumulate the needed prestige. And that isn't counting prerequisite qualifications.

To me, the fact that one is willing to put in tons of time per day into a game is an indicator of how much he or she enjoys that game. And I am of the mind that the enjoyment of playing should be reward enough. But that is just my opinion. The elitists will have a different view and will either ignore this as a solution or flame me for it...

So far, it isn't even being discussed. It WILL solve the issue by putting all PLAYERS on equal footing... Characters and ships will be superior or inferior based on how the players choose to spend the prestige they earn. So the question will become, "Do I want to spend my prestige to qualify for a better ship, or do I want to spend it on upgrades to make my current ship into the best it can be?"

Now ideally, a CO who channels his prestige into his current vessel should be able to achieve results that are comparable to a superior class ship in some ways... Even surpassing it in others.

I hate to say it but this isn't a bad idea. Prestige points..Interesting..It does solve quite a few problems.

[Deadzone]

Cryptic said that the high end ships will only be available to guilds. They will have to be built BY the players and you will need MANY players to build the infrastructure before you even get to the ship.

And we don't even know yet if there will be limit amounts on how many of these super-class ships a guild will be allowed to own.


I think you guys missed a pivitol area in my post...so here it is again.:p

Getting a top-tier ship will no be about how many missions you run. Though to actually get teh ability to BUILD the pieces you need to build the ship and manufacturing arrays...who knows.

But one thing is for certain, a single player is not going to get their hands on a top-tier ship...simply because they think they are 'owed' it by paying their monthly fee.

In EVE we have a basic game concept when it comes to rewards doing anything. Its acalled Risk vs. Reward. The more risk you put yourself and your ship in the better the 'payoff' will be...usually.

I will use the same concept here except that it would be reworked to...reward=amount of work put into it.
I think that pretty much speaks for itsself. Nothing is free.

[11710]

That's just your opinion.
There are many people who enjoy crafting. I used to run my own mini business empire on SWG, it was fun :)
Agreed I was a master Droid Engineer and i loved crafting.

So we should have a bunch of clones running around in the exact same ships? Skill does not matter? Effort does not matter? Just everybody playing T-Ball and not keeping score.

Commander Riker: "Worf, it's just a game, a friendly little competition. You work up a sweat, you have a few laughs and you make new friends."

Lieutenant Worf: "If winning is not important, then Commander, why keep score?"
I see your point, It is just that no person wins an MMO.

[snate56]

Well, so far, my only experience is with City of Heroes. In that we have super hero bases and villian lairs that become available after about tenth level. You start out with a small amount of area, and as you add members (crew) your infuence goes up, alowing you to add to the floorspace and accessories.

Now, I realize it would have to be approached a little differently, but that's how I see ships working.

[Kinjiru]

Agreed I was a master Droid Engineer and i loved crafting.

Interestingly enough, I was a Master Rifleman/Doc, didn't really care much for the crafting or resource gathering, but I also ran a fairly successful Used Starship and Equipment Depot.

I really enjoyed looking for good deals on ships and equipment, bundling them together into full packages, from starter to advanced, and selling them that way.

Just goes to show that there are lots of different ways to approach crafting/selling, and infinite ways to enjoy an open ended crafting system and economy.

If it weren't for Credit Spammers destroying the economy, and the dreaded NGE (which took away my vendors and business skills), I would have been happier a lot longer there.

[snate56]

Oh! And another thing...:D
I like small ships, I don't want some huge massive grand flagship of the fleet, just a small exploratory vessel.

Am I gonna be penallized for that? I wont be able to be effective in the game because of it?

[CaptDailey]

I believe stowill be great. Know matter how these forums play out as long as it follows the star trek universe. no one can be kirk,spock,mccoy or picard or riker, we can trive to be like those or better. and for the uber ships. no one should have command of the enterprise or the defiant of a kingon cruiser that was in movie ship. But we should be able to commission and name are own. and develope it to different specks. that what gives it own awestruckness so to speak no matter if its a constition class or galaxy class. As for character building should reflect on all , are npc crews and our ships to our fleets. Im a diehard trekker that started with the original cowboy in space idea of gene roddenberry's and love every aspect of startrek but I dont dress up like a vulcan and got to conventions... I feel they will make the rite choices with this MMO and they will have all of the above. these forums are great. i only hope we can be able to create our own custom built ships the reflect are persona. and in the starfleet/klingon fleet tradition. which after the game comes out i believe there will be somemany more addons with races and new content that my grandsons kids will be playing. i only hopethat the MMO inspires whatthe movies and tv shows did...the best in all of us...my first post ever so please bekind...rewind lol...:)

[Genixx]

what do you define as the "best ships"? Galaxy and Sovereign?
personally i like the nebula the best.. then the nova, steamrunner, akira and the constitution.

[Roka]

I got no problem with "grinders" who will spend 10 hours a day to get the "Best Ships". But to make a limited amount available is wrong. Just because I got a job and cant play everyday doesnt mean I shouldn't get to eventually get the same "Best Ship" at some point.
To put a limit on ships would alienate members and cost Cryptic money in the long run.As I'm sure they've considered. After all, this is a game thats supposed to be enjoyed by all. Not just the "grinders".

[Deadzone]

I got no problem with "grinders" who will spend 10 hours a day to get the "Best Ships". But to make a limited amount available is wrong. Just because I got a job and cant play everyday doesnt mean I shouldn't get to eventually get the same "Best Ship" at some point.
To put a limit on ships would alienate members and cost Cryptic money in the long run.As I'm sure they've considered. After all, this is a game thats supposed to be enjoyed by all. Not just the "grinders".

:sigh:

Once again.....the "best ships" will be PLAYER made...... So you have guilds A, B and C. If you have a limit of the number of the "biggest baddest" ships that any guild can own then you don't have a 20 player duild flying 20 of the uber-ships. Which will even make a bigger chasm between groups and solo players.

I am using this example becasue of events I have seen in EVE and the use of Titans. Corps there can build unlimited Titans that have a supoer-weapon that is an AOE-type weapon. One allince is reported to have 15-20 of these ships at thier desposal.

Now, with these MASSIVE ships and that many of them and the firepower that one of them can wield, not to mention 15 of them! Can you see my point now?

Things have to be kept in persepctive and balanced. Giving guilds the ability to only own X number os the baddest ships will keep the size of the chasms from growing wildly hugh.

This is also why a single, casual player WILL NOT own one of these ships, no matter HOW much you whine saying you are owed it. You need a guild to build them and they aren;t going to give someone a ship who isn;t there when they need a pilot.

[Kellir]

I almost wish I had not created this post. Almost every reply is "I am owed" or "I want this ship". Only a hand few of people have stopped for one second to think of consequences to the end game. ONLY one person, BreachAndClear, gave a plausible reply and solution. Shame on most of you.:mad:

To BreachAndClear and those few other people
Thank you very much.:)

[CaptainQuirk]

This is also why a single, casual player WILL NOT own one of these ships, no matter HOW much you whine saying you are owed it. You need a guild to build them and they aren;t going to give someone a ship who isn;t there when they need a pilot.

you don't think casual players will form guilds?

let me speak frankly. I am sick and tired of MMOs that promote elitism by cutting out casual players from content simply because theY have a life and cannot spend excessive ammounts of time grinding. But just because someone is a casual player does not mean they will not be a part of a guild.

Furthermore, casual players are just as enthusiastic about games as hardcore gamers are.
THEY JUST DO NOT HAVE AS MUCH FREE TIME TO PLAY. They should not be punished.

The game should be FAIR, in that EVERYONE can experience EVERYTHING by earning it, but the method of earning it should NOT be dependent upon how much time players can contribute.

What I have proposed for prestige solves the problem.

[bean]

The idea of exclusivity in online games is a bit silly. In WoW, there is extremely rare equipment, but it is roughly equivalent to the difficult to obtain top tier PvE or PvP gear that takes hours of in-game play to obtain even a single piece. I dislike raiding (too long game sessions and too much of a pain coordinating that many players), but I love PvP, so I have seen and beaten all the raids in WoW, but I have the top tier PvP gear and not the top tier PvE gear.

The point of that is that my style of play is rewarded as well as other people's style of play. I like to play a lot, but in shorter play sessions and with enemies who change their strategies and are thus constantly a challenge instead of PvE raids that we learn to beat and then place on boring farm (to me, one of my best friends and his wife LOVE raiding and they do it every night even though they have a full set of top tier PvE gear.) But that's the point too, they get rewarded for their style of play and I get rewarded for mine.

If you want to be the best, then there should be in-game recognition for that in the form of your earning the stuff available to everyone more quickly and some type of prestige like having your name appear on a list of the peopel who scored the most kills that week, or who gained the most resources for their faction.

Exclusive items already owned by a few serve not to reward the best, but to punish those who do not have the hardcore playstyle that allows someone to play enough to be the "best".

[dodger0000]

I like the points idea. So let me play devil's advocate.

Doesn't the game need those hardcore players for revenue and game hype and all the stuff that happens in the first 6 months after launch that makes it a successful title? And don't those hard cores create competition and organization on the part of the causal players to counter act the advantages of the hard cores? And if you had that points system, I don’t think the hard cores would play. They are instant gratification seekers. If the game doesn’t offer that continuous rush, they won’t play.
-end DA


This is a fundamental issue with all MMO's yes? So we all know that thousands of discussions have taken place on the subject. I submit there is no easy answer.

The answer for WoW was the rest XP bonus or whatever you call it. I think that worked for WoW. Unfortunately what worked in one game doesn't work in another. I can only hope that those who are taking care of game mechanics will tell us something to make us feel better about this problem for this game.

[_Pax_]

So we should have a bunch of clones running around in the exact same ships? Skill does not matter? Effort does not matter? Just everybody playing T-Ball and not keeping score.
Why would everyone be in the SAME ship, though?

Players who're into the economic side of things, will want a ship with good cargo capacity.

Players who're into the Science Officer thing, will want a Science Vessel.

Players who just want to explore, will want a Scout, or maybe a Survey Cruiser.

Players who want to fight enemies and blow stuff up, will want something with lots of guns and shields.

...

It is highly unlikely that any one, single hull will fill ALL of those roles in such a manner as to be "the best" to each and every one of those player types.

[Harddrive]

I dont see this as being a problem at all. Ive already posted on this in this thread but apparently people just dont understand.

It is obvious, logical, fair, and balanced that a player who plays more will get more. I cant believe all these people that are saying that they should have everyrthing they want without doing anything for it. They keep calling the people who want to earn their prestige (or ships) "grinders", "elitists", and "hardcore". I find this ludicrous at best. This game is PvE centered with missions that will gain resources and prestige. The very thing that these "gimme, gimme" people want to have as the primary function of this game, ie mission pve, is the very thing they are attacking the "hardcore" players for wanting to do as well, just more.

This argument is fundamentally flawed. Frankly, I cant believe that it is even being debated. I dont know of any game that lets you create your character and walk out as a solopwnmobile. You have to work for it, experience the game content, make a reputation for yourself, gather resources, and then you can acheive more than the person that hardly ever plays. I am a casual gamer, at most 2 hours a day, usually less than that. But in that time I can run missions or gather materials or whatever and expect the rewards I get for my time. I dont want more than that handed to me just becuase I whine about it.

It is not "hardcore" to play more missions a day than someone else, it is not "elitist" to say that because I put more time into it I expect more out of it then someone who doesnt, and I am not "grinding" if im enjoying the PvE content for which the game is being made. A merit system will always be better than a whining system based on some flawed sense of equity that is impossible to maintain or even establish.

Got that?

Thanks:cool:

[dodger0000]

HD,

You don't think there should be anything? Just a total level playing field?

If the game is developed like that, then don't you think that a portion of the casual players won't play?

And let's face it. The average age of the Star Trek fan is a bit higher then the average age of many of the other popular MMO's.

I think that because of the audience that this game will be speaking to, they will need to make it casual gamer friendly.....even occasional gamer friendly.

And I think, I am not sure, but I think that the notion of "everyone is a captain" is a big part of this. That way even the person who plays 2 hours a month still gets a ship.

[KamikazeG]

I did not read every post so forgive me if this was brought up. Everyone one having the best ship might not be a good thing especially in group and fleet missions. Seeing as how the ship is the character using the Feds as an example. 5 Sovereign while formidable my not be enough to get the job done. You need a sovereign a couple of akira, a dauntless and nebula to round out the group. Also the RP players will have a favorite ship and will probably stick to them rather than upgrade to the big baddies.

Just my thoughts anyways. :D

Edit: Read a little more the ability to get the end-game ships as they are gonna be called eventually, should go to the players/fleets that put the effort in to it. That being said, it should be reachable even by the casual players at some point with out having to put in 12+ hours a day 6+ days a week to get it.

[_Pax_]

Sure, but the people who're all about the crafting are generally a minority.

I don't care how they reward the best ships, as long as I can get one when I get there. If you do as much of the content as you can by the time you reach the end-game, then you shoudl be able to have access to the ships.

Finishing the content should be the thing that earns you the reward, not grinding for hours and days and weeks, not by crafting the same items in perpetuity, not by doing the same mindless task over and over and over again just to get the "phat loot".

You want to talk about little bonuses and decals and little buffs that give you a slight edge, then fine. I have no problem with rewarding people with stuff like that if they want to put the time in to get it, but don't tell me that I can't have my Sovereign class ship at the end-game simply because I didn't spend enough time in the neutral zone killing pirates over and over and over again to do it.
.... I agree, 100%, with everything here.

[bean]

It is obvious, logical, fair, and balanced that a player who plays more will get more. I cant believe all these people that are saying that they should have everyrthing they want without doing anything for it.

I think what I'm saying (not sure what others have said or who you are responding to) is that every playstyle should be rewarded.

If you have enough time and patience to do PvE raids in WoW every night and this is something that you enjoy, then you should be among the first people to have a full set of the top tier gear. However, people who have less time to play and can only raid once/week should also be able to get that top tier gear at a much later date when they've had enough time to achieve this.

Likewise, people who enjoy PvP as their playstyle should be rewarded for it (as long as PvP is not open and is instead based on skill. . . even teams, objectives, etc. like battlegrounds and arenas. . . roving gank squads should not be rewarded for boring and predictable wins obviously as there is no risk, no skill required, and no enjoyable challenge).

The point is that successful games reward all styles of play. If you are hardcore, then you will have the shiniest ships and gear. That will happen and you'll be able to lord it over other people for months or even years until they can also get it, but by then it is very likely you'll have some new shiny ship item or piece of gear from an expansion to lord over them.

Exclusivity is not required for bragging rights. The "hardcore" will of course always earn the most rewards quickly, but that should not mean that they have sole access to those rewards and everyone else is simply SOL.

[CinC-UFPForces-Cardassia]

Got that?


Not particularly, no.

Firstly, despite calling it "obvious" and "logical", your basic premise - that because one "puts more into" STO, their return on investment should be higher - is neither obvious or logical, and it's not correct. Every single person is putting the exact same investment into the game. That's $50 at the store, and $15 per month. You've focused on one subjective "investment" - playtime, which does not in and of itself reflect commitment or particular skill - while choosing to ignore a completely objective investment that we'll all share. Moreover, your premise is based on valuing one style of play over another, and no, that's neither obvious nor logical.

Secondly, you're refuting - with a fairly rude tone, to boot - an argument that isn't being made. I haven't seen the post where someone says they want to walk into the game and become a "solopwnmobile" - which, given the context of the discussion, I'll presume it's fair to say is a demand for the "best" ships. No. What I know that I, personally, have been arguing for is that all players should be able, at some point in their play experience, to access all of the game's core content regardless of how often on a daily basis they play. I have no issue at all with the balance requirements the game imposes for access to such content - as an example (but not an endorsement), the need to acquire 10,000 experience points for a DEFIANT Class starship. I do, however, have a strenuous objection to denying players the opportunity for access to a certain class simply on the basis of the out-of-world choices they may about playstyle.

I see you've noted that you play on average two or so hours a day, so it seems rather that your position has to do with a viewpoint about how the game should be played. That's fine, but it's a subjective viewpoint, and it's an opinion - and that really shouldn't be the basis for denying content to players.

[ngille]

Well said.

[ReynoldsXD]

guilds/fleets etc: stop the madness. build a good buddy and friends list, no need to give people the chance to destroy any flair the game can build with stupid fleet names.

advancement:

do not tailor the game to people who can sit in front of it all day. its what has turned me off every mmog out there.



The game is a GAME. Its supposed to be fun. If it turns into work it has failed the objective.

If you people want a second life full of work, go play second life and get to work!



Do not reward people who sit in their basement all day, playing games.

[knight1b]

You know I played for awhile in a casual guild on eve we had some of the top of the line ships we had i think 3 player owned stations and all so casual in that respect. The problem that finally won out over us is the sheer amount of effort to keep all those going. The gap in eve is realistic in terms of investment but such a system Is not one I see working for STO.

By the way Deadzone heads up on something.

In a game things change before release rather often nothing is set in stone.
They may for example decide that having some ships exclusively under the pervue of fleets with the resources to build them is not something that fits with there overall concept and plans for the game. needlessly repeating the same argument over and over is not really adding to the flow of the conversation. I suspect they are watching this thread and others to help inspire the design often community can think of things that as a developer you might not consider. It would be helpful if everyone remembers these things.

My opinions so far

There should be no content ships included that require raid type events.

Players building the best ships is fine as long as the requirement curve is not so steep as to strain small casual fleets to the breaking point.

[Surak]

NO GRIND OR PVP REWARD LIKE AN ITEM

It generates all kind of bad attitude, credit farmers, bad in game attitude, not value any roleplayer gamer or casual player also

Extreme grind is a downside of any MMO

Prise for PVP is good but in games that SUIT

[Deadzone]

Not particularly, no.

Firstly, despite calling it "obvious" and "logical", your basic premise - that because one "puts more into" STO, their return on investment should be higher - is neither obvious or logical, and it's not correct. Every single person is putting the exact same investment into the game. That's $50 at the store, and $15 per month. You've focused on one subjective "investment" - playtime, which does not in and of itself reflect commitment or particular skill - while choosing to ignore a completely objective investment that we'll all share. Moreover, your premise is based on valuing one style of play over another, and no, that's neither obvious nor logical.

Secondly, you're refuting - with a fairly rude tone, to boot - an argument that isn't being made. I haven't seen the post where someone says they want to walk into the game and become a "solopwnmobile" - which, given the context of the discussion, I'll presume it's fair to say is a demand for the "best" ships. No. What I know that I, personally, have been arguing for is that all players should be able, at some point in their play experience, to access all of the game's core content regardless of how often on a daily basis they play. I have no issue at all with the balance requirements the game imposes for access to such content - as an example (but not an endorsement), the need to acquire 10,000 experience points for a DEFIANT Class starship. I do, however, have a strenuous objection to denying players the opportunity for access to a certain class simply on the basis of the out-of-world choices they may about playstyle.

I see you've noted that you play on average two or so hours a day, so it seems rather that your position has to do with a viewpoint about how the game should be played. That's fine, but it's a subjective viewpoint, and it's an opinion - and that really shouldn't be the basis for denying content to players.

Cinq, you actually make an eloquent argument here. I do agree with you that everyone should be 'able' to access high-end stuff. My points in my arguments were the people saying they figured they were"owed" it simply because of the money they pay. That is a false argument because any MMO player knows for any type of reward...reward=effort. I don't care if you(people) like or hate pvp, or love/hate PvE, or love/hate instances or love/hate grinding......anything reward you get is directly proportionate to the effort you put into it.

I do say again though...yea, people should have access to high end stuff but they will need to work for it like everyone else. If that takes them 6 months longer because they only log in 4 hours a week then so be it. Logic dictates than someone who plays 20 hours a week will accomplish more and get more done than someone who only logs in 4 hrs a week. So it is and so it shall be.

Knight1b-By the way Deadzone heads up on something.

In a game things change before release rather often nothing is set in stone.
They may for example decide that having some ships exclusively under the pervue of fleets with the resources to build them is not something that fits with there overall concept and plans for the game. needlessly repeating the same argument over and over is not really adding to the flow of the conversation. I suspect they are watching this thread and others to help inspire the design often community can think of things that as a developer you might not consider. It would be helpful if everyone remembers these things.


While I do agree with you that things may change mate, Jack saying it himself on video I will take as pretty much cement at this point in time. It came straight from the horses mouth :)

[Deadzone]

guilds/fleets etc: stop the madness. build a good buddy and friends list, no need to give people the chance to destroy any flair the game can build with stupid fleet names.

advancement:

do not tailor the game to people who can sit in front of it all day. its what has turned me off every mmog out there.



The game is a GAME. Its supposed to be fun. If it turns into work it has failed the objective.

If you people want a second life full of work, go play second life and get to work!



Do not reward people who sit in their basement all day, playing games.

So they are going to reward you, the people who play maybe 3 nights a week instead? ....please mate, the whining is deafening.

Cryptic will cater to the group who will buy the game. Though I would suspect this will be a rather large group but a group still the same. I can guarantee you the % of players "playing games in their basement all day long" will outnumber the "after-dinner crowed" by quite a lot.

But hey, you can still have fun in the game no matter what style you choose. Why? Because you choose the type of fun you want to have. You really expect you..a person that logs in 5 hours a week to really be on par with someone who plays 20 or 30hrs a week?

If you seriously think that, then you need to get out of MMOs for good. Stick with RPGs.

[Gunny714]

I tend to agree with everyone who does not want to reward playtime with powerful rewards. The game will then have the potential to turn into a grind fest where hardcore gamers will be annoying casual gamers with their anti-social personalities. Awarding playtime will have a lot to do with the combat system. To the above post, a person that plays a few hours a week can be on par with hardcore gamers; I've seen it done by many people in several MMO's. That kind of arrogant anti-social behaivior is what makes MMO's hard to play sometimes.

[Moody]

So they are going to reward you, the people who play maybe 3 nights a week instead? ....please mate, the whining is deafening.

Cryptic will cater to the group who will buy the game. Though I would suspect this will be a rather large group but a group still the same. I can guarantee you the % of players "playing games in their basement all day long" will outnumber the "after-dinner crowed" by quite a lot.

But hey, you can still have fun in the game no matter what style you choose. Why? Because you choose the type of fun you want to have. You really expect you..a person that logs in 5 hours a week to really be on par with someone who plays 20 or 30hrs a week?

If you seriously think that, then you need to get out of MMOs for good. Stick with RPGs.

"The Squeeky wheel gets the Oil"

Its not that there are more "playing games in their basement all day long" people in actuality the number of casuals normally far out wieghs them the problem is most casuals are relaxed and busy elsewhere (hence why they are casual gamers) and dont complain as much as the "hardcore" gamers


on topic - so long as there are few items that require X person to be loged in for Y hours doing Z mission (read Raid) then all content will be freely availble to casual and hardcore alike - the hardcore just get it faster

[ReynoldsXD]

You really expect you..a person that logs in 5 hours a week to really be on par with someone who plays 20 or 30hrs a week?


In terms of skill/char advancement? Yes thats possible and i fcnk expect that from a trek game.
The 30 Hour ppl might have more time played and more things seen, but that does not need to imply that their advancement needs to be tied to invested hours.

A simple restriction on gain per day or a skillsystem inspired by eve will do the trick.
The only advantage a basement resident has over a casual in eve is in terms of isk earnings and thats only that much of an advantage.
The point is: the skill development is largely the same, putting us on equal footing in terms of things we can field. He can just waste more of it before running out of money.




Oh: and there are no good single player startrek games, at least none that i havent played over and over already.

[Kellir]

This thread is not about Casual or Hardcore players. Pleas stop hijacking my thread.

This thread is about not having most* players in the very best ship one year after the game is released. I proposed having some sort of point system and ONLY giving the highest 10 to 15 players the best ship. Somebody else proposed having the ships rotate. I would guess that would use points also but take away those points when a person gets the ships and drops said person lower on the list.

My question to the rest of you is simple. Does any of you have a better idea?







* = some player that like to Roleplay do not want the best ship.

[loyaltrekie]

In terms of skill/char advancement? Yes thats possible and i fcnk expect that from a trek game.
The 30 Hour ppl might have more time played and more things seen, but that does not need to imply that their advancement needs to be tied to invested hours.

A simple restriction on gain per day or a skillsystem inspired by eve will do the trick.
The only advantage a basement resident has over a casual in eve is in terms of isk earnings and thats only that much of an advantage.
The point is: the skill development is largely the same, putting us on equal footing in terms of things we can field. He can just waste more of it before running out of money.




Oh: and there are no good single player startrek games, at least none that i havent played over and over already.

I don't think games that limit what you are able to accomplish are the way to go :( If you don't have the time to commit, then you don't, why dampen others because you don't have the time to invest?

[Swiftus27]

In terms of skill/char advancement? Yes thats possible and i fcnk expect that from a trek game.
The 30 Hour ppl might have more time played and more things seen, but that does not need to imply that their advancement needs to be tied to invested hours.

A simple restriction on gain per day or a skillsystem inspired by eve will do the trick.
The only advantage a basement resident has over a casual in eve is in terms of isk earnings and thats only that much of an advantage.
The point is: the skill development is largely the same, putting us on equal footing in terms of things we can field. He can just waste more of it before running out of money.




Oh: and there are no good single player startrek games, at least none that i havent played over and over already.

Or you can just use the EvE system...

[LivingHellfire]

There's a white elephant in this room.

The reality here is that, as it pertains to this argument, there are two camps. Those that like the idea of "working" for the best stuff and making it rare, and those that don't and who feel that they shouldn't have to work at a game to find satisfaction. But let's be very clear. When someone says "work" in this case, what is meant by that invariably translates to grinding. I think any argument to the contrary would be disingenuous at best.

So, when we're talking about "working" for the end-game, high-end gear/loot/reward/whatever, we're talking about grinding in one form or another.

Of the two crowds of people who engage in this debate, the first crowd tends to be younger, tends to have more time and more disposable income. The second tends to be older (usually over 25) and have jobs, families, wives/husbands and/or kids.

That second group knows what real work is and the last thing they want to do after finishing a day at work and after coming home and spending time with the fam and fulfilling their home responsibilities is to spend their time in the evening logging into a game to do more work. They want to relax, to have fun and to feel powerful.

This isn't a criticism of either group, it's merely my understanding, and yes I'm aware that there are exceptions to every trend.

That being said, while the second group has their motivations, the first group also has theirs. At the very minimum that first group of people want to make sure that their achievements are recognized and rewarded. When a "hard-core" player espouses the idea that the high-end, end-game stuff should be hard to get and limited because they take pride in their accompllishments and take pride in the fact that so few others have achieved what they have I have no doubt whatsoever that they're being honest and truthful and that it is the case.

However this argument, in one form or another, has occured in every forum for every MMO that's ever been developed and what's continually ignored by both sides is the fact that the "hard-core" who want to "work" for their rewards, at the very least, do not dislike grinding. In fact, in my observation, those people tend to actually like grinding. So, in essence, their forwarding, or at least defending their own chosen playstyle.

And that's the key word.

This isn't so much a debate about what's right and wrong in terms of rewarding players, it's a wrestling match about playstyles. It's one group who likes a certain playstyle arguing with another group who prefers a playstyle that isn't compatible. This isn't about the goodies so much as it is two groups of people trying to settle how to play their own chosen style.

That's it.

Now, with all that said I should point out that these are my observations based on 10 or so years of MMO gaming. So, they're not necessarily "scientific", but they sure are self-evident to a guy like me who studies not only games, but gaming as an industry and a culture. Be that as it may, take this argument however you like it.

[loyaltrekie]

I would like to point out I have a full time job, and still believe in the "working" for stuff in an MMO. Personally I find that if your not keen on earning something in a game, then something along the lines of an old school RPG are better suited to there needs. If your going to spend so much time 'developing' a character, you deserve to have something to show for it, and to show off. That's part of the reason I play an MMO, in place of just an RPG. Don't get me wrong I love the genre for many other aspects that we all share, but one thing that makes MMO's unique is the ability to show off what you "worked" to get for, and thats one of the reasons I continue to subscribe, is that never ending quest to have the best items I can while still enjoying myself.

[KL0k]

*applause-posting for livinghellfire* :)

[knight1b]

Look at it this way the first M in MMO is for massive. Well if you leave the masses feeling discouraged or ignored cheated and so on. There not very likely to stick around are they? Ships for STO are like spells for say everquest. They are a core part of the game and very important. One of the bigest blunders of the past 3 or 4 years made by SOE in everquest was to put spells behind barriers only hardcore players tended to breach. They have since made efforts to correct this though retroactive actions are lacking. No content should be unaccessible to players especially core content.

[bean]

There's a white elephant in this room.

The reality here is that, as it pertains to this argument, there are two camps. Those that like the idea of "working" for the best stuff and making it rare, and those that don't and who feel that they shouldn't have to work at a game to find satisfaction. But let's be very clear. When someone says "work" in this case, what is meant by that invariably translates to grinding. I think any argument to the contrary would be disingenuous at best.

With respect, I believe that this basic premise upon which you built the rest of your post is false.

From what I've read, there are people in here who want certain items to be exclusive in the game to only the "best" players, while others want rewards to reward all playstyles based on the time invested in the game and their in-game success. So perhaps the hardcore gamer gets the best ship in the game in the first two months after the game releases, but someone who can only play around 10 hours/week will take six months to a year to get it.

In both cases, there is an equal amount of "work", though I think that endgame instanced PvP, and I enjoy endgame PvE as long as it doesn't require repeating the same content over and over (which it does, but I beat it all. . . I just stop going once we "have it on farm". . . which means we know how to beat everything and can run through it without risk of wiping out). The only difference is that some of the hardcore players here want the neat things they get early to be the neat things they get for having the most free time and that the rest of the game world can never access even if they play for a year.

[KL0k]

and whats the reason for this behaviour? right, the ego. thats the "look what i got, and you are nothing" mentality that let me quit the most MMO's after the first month (sometimes i didnt even get past the beta, because of these grind-masters).

[LivingHellfire]

With respect, I believe that this basic premise upon which you built the rest of your post is false.

Fair enough.


From what I've read, there are people in here who want certain items to be exclusive in the game to only the "best" players, while others want rewards to reward all playstyles based on the time invested in the game and their in-game success. So perhaps the hardcore gamer gets the best ship in the game in the first two months after the game releases, but someone who can only play around 10 hours/week will take six months to a year to get it.

I'm okay with that idea, but it's not necessarily the case. I don't think anyone cares how long it takes to get something at the end of the game. Nobody here is actually thinking that a guy who only plays 10 hours a week should have experienced or achieved everything that a guy who plays 30 hours a week has.

No, that's not being argued. What's being argued is the idea that the "best ships" should should be available to those that play the game. In essence, just by playing the game, doing the content, immersing yourself in the world and the environment and by fulfilling your virtual duties as a ship commander that you'll be rewarded in due course without having to "farm" or grind.

Nobody cares if someone gets their leet ship first, as long as I know that I can get it at some point wihtout having to farm, grind or toil away at some repetitive resource or experience gathing monotony for hours or days or weeks just to get command of a Galaxy or Sovereign class starship.


In both cases, there is an equal amount of "work", though I think that endgame instanced PvP, and I enjoy endgame PvE as long as it doesn't require repeating the same content over and over (which it does, but I beat it all. . . I just stop going once we "have it on farm". . . which means we know how to beat everything and can run through it without risk of wiping out). The only difference is that some of the hardcore players here want the neat things they get early to be the neat things they get for having the most free time and that the rest of the game world can never access even if they play for a year.

I still think it's relatively self-evident that those that espouse the idea that you shoudl have to grind to get stuff are the same people who enjoy grinding.

[loyaltrekie]

Nobody cares if someone gets their leet ship first, as long as I know that I can get it at some point wihtout having to farm, grind or toil away at some repetitive resource or experience gathing monotony for hours or days or weeks just to get command of a Galaxy or Sovereign class starship.

I still think it's relatively self-evident that those that espouse the idea that you shoudl have to grind to get stuff are the same people who enjoy grinding.

Normally I would say "Maybe you should stick to just RPG's" but even then you can "Grind" in them to get what you want. Personally I like having a little gratification in what I do, the harder something is to obtain the more of a feeling you have when you get it. What essentially you want is to open the box, click "Ship" from a drop down menu and then choose which one you want. Which, I won't say thats a bad thing, nor will I say its a good thing. I will merely say its not what I want from an MMO/RPG. I like there to be some sort of challenge in obtaining something, gear/ships/equipment whatever the fancy of the particular game is. I'm sure most people will agree, that its not just having the ship for aesthetic appeal. While that does play a part in it, there is also stats/rarity etc.

Let's say for instance, you had two swords. Both were physical duplicates, both stat wise and model wise. The difference being that one was a rare'r version that you could have only gotten by completing something, the other was one you could buy from a vendor. Which would you rather use? The rarer one because not everyone has it. (Disclaimer: I fully understand that it would be silly to have gotten something with the exact same stats while it could be bought etc)

What it comes down to is the perception of "Grind". Everyone interprets grind differently, not just on a general group that they fit into like hardcore casual etc, but they perceive it individually. For the most part the game doesn't produce the grind the player does. Lets say, in order to receive X loot, you must kill Y, Z amount of times. Now there are two ways to approach the situation, the casual way of just playing to have fun, that would be you acquire that by just playing your way through the game exploring do what you want etc. The other is the player inducing a grind, where they want X so badly they spend C amount of time, "Farming/Grinding" Y until Z is met. That isn't the game necessarily but the player, forcing themselves to "Grind" in order to get what they want. When they could very well so get it by just playing through the game, while yes they would get it latter, the player doesn't want that, they want it now, and as such "work for it".

After rereading all those variables I'll just rewrite with an example. You begin the game, you go out on your tiny vessel, and start blowing up asteroids, for no apparent reason other then to do it. You then look online and find out that you can get a special phaser for your ship if you destroy another 132 asteroids. Now by all rights right then you could "grind" your way through it to obtain your goal, or you could do it till it doesn't entertain you anymore then go back to exploring, and what not. Player induced grind =/= developer flaw.

Now I fully recognize that there are instances where the development process didn't weed out bad design flaws, such as "The game doesn't start until you reach max level", that is where I find the big debate about grind is. The fact of that matter is though, that there is almost always something to do other then 'end-game' it just players would rather expedite the process by repeating monotonous actions over and over, rather then doing the varied content at a slower pace.

I just had some of that delicious Hawaiian coffee and lost my train of thought so meh.

[Warloque]

Ok, time for me to throw in my two cents.

Honestly it is my firm belief that all accounts are created equal. We all pay the same amount we should all get the same oppurtunity for access. Now that being said there I am not an elitist never have been never will be, but i believe in effort and goals. I do think that everyone should have to put in the same amount of effort to get the same "perks" as someone said in a prior post and certain things may require alot of effort.
However I think as do a gret number of people that adventually everyone should be able to reach the same playing field.

To get an idea of where I am coming from I play Everquest 2 quite regularly. I belong to a family guild, but in Everquest 2 alot of the better rewards come from raid mobs ( raid mobs for those that do not know are those creatures in game that require multiple groups to defeat). I am not a member of a hard core pardon the expression Uber raiding guild. Having said that because my guild has put forth the effort we are close to attaining a few of the end game content awards.

Ok now that im done with my personal explanantion im gonna continue with what i meant. alot of these "flagship" type vessels there very well could be a logistical limit as to how many there are.
Starfleet is a military ( no not non military or paramilitary starfleet is a military) and as such has to weigh the requirements to thier over all mission and normally would react as such using a merit/ availability program to decide who gets to captain which ship. not saying that it will happen like that just saying it is feasible.
I would love to see everyone get to captain the ship they want but if everyone works at different paces (merit) and in the end ther is no available (insert ship class) i could see a mechanic where you have to wait till a vacancy happens.....................Im looking at it logically not in a manner where everyone gets whatever they want that just is not logical in any way shape or form.

[LivingHellfire]

Normally I would say "Maybe you should stick to just RPG's" but even then you can "Grind" in them to get what you want. Personally I like having a little gratification in what I do, the harder something is to obtain the more of a feeling you have when you get it. What essentially you want is to open the box, click "Ship" from a drop down menu and then choose which one you want.

I'm going to stop you right there.

That is NOT what I'm saying, and it's not what most of the people here are saying. What we're saying is that there shoudln't be any ship out there that can't be gained simply by playing the game relatively free of grinding or farming. That's all.

So, nobody is saying that we should be able to have any ship just for the asking, you should be able to get it not by "working", but by "playing". By playing the content and doing the missions and paying attention you should be able to get those ships.

For instance, instead of having to farm gold in WoW to buy a mount and training (and the epic mount ******** is insane. There's absolutely no reason for that kind of idiocy), in STO what I think is a good example of what I'm talking about is having certain missions at certain levels that you can do to gain certain commendations. You collect the right commendations (and remember, some might not be available until you reach a certain level where the mission unlocks for you to do) and you have access to upgrade to a certain kind of ship.

But the POINT is that you haven't grinded or farmed to do it, there's no need to repeat the missions a certain number of times, and there isn't even any real need for these missions to be particularily difficult. Just have them be such that they are integral to the storyline and canon of the game and that they make you feel important, valued and an integral part of Starfleet. With the exception of the commendations you recieve that go towards the ship upgrade there should be almost no difference between those missions and the non-commendation awarding mission.

Regardless, the above is merely an example, one suggestion as to how to handle what I'm saying, which is, specifically, that no ship or other essential lore asset should be restricted to anyone who doesn't simply play the game, go through the content and pay attention to what's happening around him.

[KL0k]

what about this:
some shiptypes are only accessible if you have chosen "path Y" at "point X"? lets say you have chosen to be a science officer then you will get access to the nebula/galaxy class, or if your more about tactical ops, you get access to a buffed to the max akira class or souvereign, and so on. would that be something everyone is "okay" with?

[Rakkis]

No plain and simple they should not have rare best ships. All that actually is an eccuse so some people become top of the ladder and everyone follows. The so called best players would be on top and in a since rule over everyone else. But here something they not thinking about... if someone buys the game a couple monthes after launch, and they happen to be one of the "best players" guess who doesn't get a rare ship no matter waht. This is just some people wanting to control everyone else... yes there ALWAYS is a player hierarchy in MMO. What there should be is rare componets to get that everyone can get, but they are rare, you have to keep working at it to get... like WOW (i know anthor WOW drop, but you have to go with want we all know...8-( )

[Warloque]

I'm going to stop you right there.

That is NOT what I'm saying, and it's not what most of the people here are saying. What we're saying is that there shoudln't be any ship out there that can't be gained simply by playing the game relatively free of grinding or farming. That's all.

So, nobody is saying that we should be able to have any ship just for the asking, you should be able to get it not by "working", but by "playing". By playing the content and doing the missions and paying attention you should be able to get those ships.

For instance, instead of having to farm gold in WoW to buy a mount and training (and the epic mount ******** is insane. There's absolutely no reason for that kind of idiocy), in STO what I think is a good example of what I'm talking about is having certain missions at certain levels that you can do to gain certain commendations. You collect the right commendations (and remember, some might not be available until you reach a certain level where the mission unlocks for you to do) and you have access to upgrade to a certain kind of ship.

But the POINT is that you haven't grinded or farmed to do it, there's no need to repeat the missions a certain number of times, and there isn't even any real need for these missions to be particularily difficult. Just have them be such that they are integral to the storyline and canon of the game and that they make you feel important, valued and an integral part of Starfleet. With the exception of the commendations you recieve that go towards the ship upgrade there should be almost no difference between those missions and the non-commendation awarding mission.

Regardless, the above is merely an example, one suggestion as to how to handle what I'm saying, which is, specifically, that no ship or other essential lore asset should be restricted to anyone who doesn't simply play the game, go through the content and pay attention to what's happening around him.

While i would like to agree that grinding for loot and money is a pain i still think a merit system would be the better way to go about this you need to earn the mantle of <insert ship class> you have to earn the right some way and no captain i have heard was just thrown a ship and told to go have fun. they had to earn it somehow some way some buy it some show excellent leadership abilities but the earn it some how.

as far as the grinding goes you would hope that there would be atleast a bit of a randomizer in the way you get your missions and even what the content of those missions are i dont like doing 50 million repeatable to the word quest either.

[LivingHellfire]

While i would like to agree that grinding for loot and money is a pain i still think a merit system would be the better way to go about this you need to earn the mantle of <insert ship class> you have to earn the right some way and no captain i have heard was just thrown a ship and told to go have fun. they had to earn it somehow some way some buy it some show excellent leadership abilities but the earn it some how.

as far as the grinding goes you would hope that there would be atleast a bit of a randomizer in the way you get your missions and even what the content of those missions are i dont like doing 50 million repeatable to the word quest either.

You can still have that kind of merit system for those that want to put in extra time and effort on things that aren't necessarily essential parts of gameplay. For instance, you can have little rewards that you can upgrade your ship with, special registrations, little refits that give little bonuses and tweak your ship, maybe some cool decals or something.

But the ships themselves should be available to everyone, assuming they meet the skill/rank requirements.

[J.L.Picard]

for the sake of the game i hope all Dev's ignore this post. If this is ever implemented it will just be another reason, for people who enjoy just 1 hour or maybe 2 a day of gaming, to not even bother with the game. I pesonally I'm not one of these people I usually do atleast 3-5 hours a day on an MMO.

Simply put these idea is moronic. The reason you only see a limited number of "capital" ships in Star Trek is that they are NEW designs that have just come into production e.g. Initially there was only a few Galaxy class vessels but at the end on ST:TNG they were reaching the 100 mark (just look at some of the Fleet scenes during the Dominion war). They have now stopped production in order to move it to the Sovereign class which only 4 are known of and this game takes place 30 years after Nemesis 10 years of Sovereign production=alot of capital ships.
just look at the Romulan's 99 of ALL Romulan vessels shown are ALWAYS the D'Derix(spelling) does this mean that people should only have access to a Romulan battleship from the get go? Lets not forget the Klingon's you want 90% of all Klingong players to be playing with a K'vort/B'rel class ships (Destroyer/Scout)?

[mezlabor]

You can still have that kind of merit system for those that want to put in extra time and effort on things that aren't necessarily essential parts of gameplay. For instance, you can have little rewards that you can upgrade your ship with, special registrations, little refits that give little bonuses and tweak your ship, maybe some cool decals or something.

But the ships themselves should be available to everyone, assuming they meet the skill/rank requirements.

Thats not enough for them they have to be leagues better then everyone else to show off how serious they are about their gaming life. :rolleyes:

[KL0k]

You can still have that kind of merit system for those that want to put in extra time and effort on things that aren't necessarily essential parts of gameplay. For instance, you can have little rewards that you can upgrade your ship with, special registrations, little refits that give little bonuses and tweak your ship, maybe some cool decals or something.

But the ships themselves should be available to everyone, assuming they meet the skill/rank requirements.

but that will lead to the same grindfest you want to avoid, since they give you any bonuses to anything. especially when it comes to pvp. as i said in another thread, its the playerbase that lead to these scenarios, not the game or system in a game itself. the day you implement competetion, you can place bets on it, that someone is trying to get better then everyone else, even if its just to say "haha, i owned you cause i got this n that"