So a ship manned by disposable NPCs (very startrekish)

[tuggray]

Yeh you know if your away team is going to live or die depending of if thier your main crew or not ^_^

K well here we go

I'd like to know the whole idea behind NPC crew now i know we all get a ship each and i'm fine with that but wouldn't it be a good idea to have a way to be crew under someone else.

my idea would be you would also be able to crew a ship with other players under a guild/crew ship.
The capitain would be elected and the ship would be very high end and unable to be used by solo players.

the whole game seems solo based and problem is the game would need to be accsessable to all types of player not just the guild/team players (wow lost appeal cos of solo play beein very deminished after hitting 70)

i don't have any problem with having a NPC crew but i would like to have other players be able to board my ship and become crew leaving thier own ships under NPC control of their NPC 2nd in command.

if that makes sence it means at any point the player can leave the guild ran ship to board his own ship at a comm signle right.

[LordDave]

Hello and welcome.
You are the 400th person to make a topic on this.

[Roka]

First off, welcome.

second there are dozens of threads about this topic. Both for and against player crews. Bottom line is everyone wants their own ship at one time or another. So thats the way it's being made. However.....Jack did state that the programming is open, so that down the line they can add crew driven ships if needed.

Hope this helps.. enjoy the forums.

[Kinjiru]

Wow, that poor dead horse *is* taking a beating.

The idea is that your bridge crew can be customized, you can train them, decorate them, give them commands. The closest analogy that I can come up with is Creature Handling from SWG. They will follow you through your career.

Are they expendable? Yes, much more expendable than the Captain. Will they follow orders? Yes. Will they use leetspeak or be 13 year old pwnzor nubs? No.

[Bazil]

Hello and welcome.
You are the 400th person to make a topic on this.

Shouldn't he get a prize?

[warrendeath]

Hello and welcome.
You are the 400th person to make a topic on this.

Indeed a post of pure logic. This is type of thread is right up there with 'I don't wanna be a captain' thread.

Live long and prosper,

Warren

[LordDave]

Shouldn't he get a prize?

Here is his prize:
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting

[Varrangian]

Wow, that poor dead horse *is* taking a beating.

The idea is that your bridge crew can be customized, you can train them, decorate them, give them commands. The closest analogy that I can come up with is Creature Handling from SWG. They will follow you through your career.

Are they expendable? Yes, much more expendable than the Captain. Will they follow orders? Yes. Will they use leetspeak or be 13 year old pwnzor nubs? No.

We've killed this horse at least twice by now.

As I've stated in other threads reason 1023 why I'll be happy with an NPC crew. I can train them in the "use the search function" skill.

[LordDave]

The biggest problem with this "lots of threads on the same issue" is that the threads get pushed down. Threads with posts that are mere hours old, go to the 2nd page and thus aren't seen right off the bat, making a new thread more likely.

[ArchBuck]

Maybe the best way, as someone described in a previous thread... is to allow both...

Have NPC crews, but at anytime a real player can come and take the place of any crew member.... *shrug* just a thought.

[jdfimage]

Maybe the best thing to do is for GMs to start locking these threads so people will stop posting to them. IMHO

[LordDave]

Maybe the best way, as someone described in a previous thread... is to allow both...

Have NPC crews, but at anytime a real player can come and take the place of any crew member.... *shrug* just a thought.

Oh that was never the problem. That's easy once you get both systems down.
The problem was...
"What does the actual player do that's fun on the bridge?" And remember, it has to be consistently fun. Not like "gathering then crafting the same healing potion 5,000 times" fun either.
Basically: Being a PC crew guy for any period of time (short mission or long one) must be at least as fun as going out as a captain type person.

[LordDave]

Maybe the best thing to do is for GMs to start locking these threads so people will stop posting to them. IMHO

Nah, counter productive. It would be like Cryptic saying "Hey! You morons! STFU about wanting PC crews!"

A PR nightmare is what that is.

[Roka]

They wont lock the threads, but may combine them................ Where's Razor?

*looks around*

[LordDave]

They wont lock the threads, but may combine them................ Where's Razor?

*looks around*

Can you imagine that? He'd have to spend hours on here just to keep up. lol.

[Roka]

Can you imagine that? He'd have to spend hours on here just to keep up. lol.

Yes, but think of the overtime lol *cha-ching!!!*

[Varrangian]

The biggest problem with this "lots of threads on the same issue" is that the threads get pushed down. Threads with posts that are mere hours old, go to the 2nd page and thus aren't seen right off the bat, making a new thread more likely.

I understand your point, but before posting a new post I try to do a search first. Granted something are hard to find, but I think Player crews is fairly easy ;)

[mordaci]

Having a NPC crew isnt a bad thing. I play StarQuest Online and a problem that i have run into is not everyone being able to log in at the same time or someone having to log off when it starts getting good. Having an NPC crew would be great to have until a player was able to log in and take over the station. I hope they make it where the NPC's are able to learn and skill up as players or have them on the same level as the ranking person on the bridge or in command os the vessel. Im with them on this. Please allow us to have NPC crew members. also some folks like to solo and go at their own pace instead of trying to be uber leet. and have the best of everything. I personally would love to be a freelance and just take jobs here and there and explore at my own pace maybe roleplay some like the show Firefly (great show WHY was it canceled). which reminds me I hope we are allowed more than just one or two characters on the same server.

[Varrangian]

Oh that was never the problem. That's easy once you get both systems down.
The problem was...
"What does the actual player do that's fun on the bridge?" And remember, it has to be consistently fun. Not like "gathering then crafting the same healing potion 5,000 times" fun either.
Basically: Being a PC crew guy for any period of time (short mission or long one) must be at least as fun as going out as a captain type person.


Exactly and had they spent the time trying to develop the player bridge crew system while developing the NPC crew system both would have been watered down.

By choosing to focus on the NPC crew system for launch they give themselves a chance to make a very strong and enjoyable core for game play that can then be augmented with player crews once they are able to figure out a good system for it.

[Jazzman]

Having a PC Crew is simply not possible with nowadays technology. Plus it would be far to boring sitting down in Engineering for instance and waiting probably 8 hours with waiting for an occasion to push a button for this or that. Or a Doctor in Sickbay that has nothing to do when there is no battle and no one gets injured! I cannot imagine a living person who would be willing to invest all the precious real life time for such a thing and also paying a monthly fee for that! :)

Yes the idea of having a real crew and have all the nice adventures and social interaction like in the TV Shows or a Pen & Paper Roleplaying Group is great and believe me i would love that. But itr is sinply not possible to make a Fun MMORPG with that. LIke explained in the Example above.

I think Cryptics way with Bridge Crews being NPC and skill able is the best way. And i still can have fellow Real person Captains over at my ship and can be forming an away team completely consisting of real players, is fair enough for me :)

[CdrWolfe]

Oh that was never the problem. That's easy once you get both systems down.
The problem was...
"What does the actual player do that's fun on the bridge?" And remember, it has to be consistently fun. Not like "gathering then crafting the same healing potion 5,000 times" fun either.
Basically: Being a PC crew guy for any period of time (short mission or long one) must be at least as fun as going out as a captain type person.

How is this not the same for just having a whole NPC crew, what does the Captain do during downtime?, any mission system which involves any complexity that can satisfy a Captian only approach surely can be adapted to the occasional PC crew approach aswell.

I don't see how diluting the other various classes to a simple Repair ship button, scan ship button or move button is any more thrilling and fun then a system which would have to be more complex due to the nature of it being solely handled by one person.

I understand that some people like to feel in control or don't have the twitch skill or intelligence to handle complex situations or problems but dumbing it down doesn't exactly make it that appealing.

Or and lets be honest are you all just interested in the whole point click fire and blow up nature of the game i.e Legacy but in a bigger space? Come on be honest and admit it.

Regards Wolfe

[Varrangian]

How is this not the same for just having a whole NPC crew, what does the Captain do during downtime?, any mission system which involves any complexity that can satisfy a Captian only approach surely can be adapted to the occasional PC crew approach aswell.

I don't see how diluting the other various classes to a simple Repair ship button, scan ship button or move button is any more thrilling and fun then a system which would have to be more complex due to the nature of it being solely handled by one person.

I understand that some people like to feel in control or don't have the twitch skill or intelligence to handle complex situations or problems but dumbing it down doesn't exactly make it that appealing.

Or and lets be honest are you all just interested in the whole point click fire and blow up nature of the game i.e Legacy but in a bigger space? Come on be honest and admit it.

Regards Wolfe

Do you not see the difference between being in control of an NPC crew (i.e. giving them commands) and being a PC crew member receiving the commands?

I'm not trying to flame, but there really is a fundamental difference between the two.

[AbaddonIX]

When will be people get it threw their skulls that it will be very boring for a person to just stand still and press buttons on a console,sure it's a good idea and might be fun for the first 30mins or less,but what about after..

[CdrWolfe]

Sorry that is not to what i was pertaining,

I understand that some people don't like to be ordered around, but i would imagine it would not be some strict level of "You, engineering Boy increase warp feild output by 10.1%". If it was then simply team up with a better captain.

I would hope it would be a more cooperative experience i.e "Scotty, were dying up here, what is the status of those sheilds", "Coming right up captiain the dilithium matrix is shot we need to bypass" etc etc.

Anyway back to what i was originally highlighting was how having a system where all you do is play final fantasy style point and click to move you NPC around or basically take over its function by becoming a psuedo ship crew GOD with the ability to control every aspect of the ship by pressing a few buttons is any more fun then having a system designed to be controlled by a single person or at least the option to have it controlled.

The problem with NPC crews is that everything will be dumbed down, and lets be honest it will be because if it isn't we will have floods of players like yourself screaming that it is to complex, i can't fire my 'Lazorzs' while moving and repairing and assigining security around the ship.

What it will evolve to will be a simple, 'Oh bugger a ship is attacking, click on engineer, tell to repair damage, click on science officer to scan ship and then i can focus on moving the ship and firing my lazorzs ala SFC or Legacy.

Good luck with that i hope i'am wrong though.

Regards Wolfe

[CdrWolfe]

Do you not see the difference between being in control of an NPC crew (i.e. giving them commands) and being a PC crew member receiving the commands?

I'm not trying to flame, but there really is a fundamental difference between the two.

Oh the irony, you do realise that is exactly what you will probably be doing with an NPC crew right?

Regards Wolfe

[Captain_Intrepid]

If/when they include having player Department Heads/crew members, I hope they have a feature where NPCs step in when players go offline. Even if it's a disconnect, the NPC could fill in until the player could log back on. If a player goes on vacation, a NPC could fill in until another player fills in or the original guy comes back from vacation.

[ArkonPhoenix]

This is a great example:
http://echosphere.net/star_trek_insp/insp_expendability.jpg

[Varrangian]

Oh the irony, you do realise that is exactly what you will probably be doing with an NPC crew right?

Regards Wolfe

Ok since you don't seem to understand I will explain. With an NPC crew you as captain will tell them, increase the power to shields or fire torpedoes off their port bow... etc. You'll be making decisions and in essence enacting them.

As a PC crew member you'll do what? press a few buttons to make this happen? Because if you are autonomous as a crew member and can actually choose not to increase shield power or fire the torpedoes off the starboard side instead you've just done something tantamount to mutiny.

Sure we could maybe invest weeks of development time to creating minimally entertaining mini-games for these individual crew members to play while taking orders, but you can't give them autonomy. They might be able to succeed or fail, but then you have a situation of trying to determine how much a role equipment or tactical advantage plays in the success of these mini-games. Do you not see the complexity issues here. Let alone that a mini-game gets boring after a while.

[LordDave]

How is this not the same for just having a whole NPC crew, what does the Captain do during downtime?, any mission system which involves any complexity that can satisfy a Captian only approach surely can be adapted to the occasional PC crew approach aswell.

I don't see how diluting the other various classes to a simple Repair ship button, scan ship button or move button is any more thrilling and fun then a system which would have to be more complex due to the nature of it being solely handled by one person.

I understand that some people like to feel in control or don't have the twitch skill or intelligence to handle complex situations or problems but dumbing it down doesn't exactly make it that appealing.

Or and lets be honest are you all just interested in the whole point click fire and blow up nature of the game i.e Legacy but in a bigger space? Come on be honest and admit it.

Regards Wolfe

Well considering all MMORPGs are "hold button for movement. Press button for spell. Press mouse for attack. ect..." Hell, any FPS game is "Press Button to move. Press Button to Jump. Press Button to attack" That's all it ever is is buttons. Except the Wii and several Arcade games, but let's ignore that for the moment.


Do this:
Play Bridge Commander. You should be able to find a Demo around somewhere. Once you do, I want you to tell me if it was fun or not.

Point is, if you, the player, are constantly doing something, your less likely to be bored. By increasing the number of things you need to do at one time while simplifying the controls, you achieve that. But if your job is to sit at a console and press the "fire phasers" button, then that's as much fun as dancing as an Entertainer in SWG and harder to implement.

[CdrWolfe]

You do realise though that you have just replaced 5 complex mini games with one larger but simpler one.

It is all dependent on how you would design each class to work, hard i know but i can live in hope ;).

Now the problem is you have just envisioned a system which is just a clone of WOW in space, you say that if you as a player are constantly doing something then you are having fun, please explain how pressing fire phasers, followed by buff shields, followed by rotate ship ad infindum is exactly the greatest experience in gaming history.

Unless you like the sound of repetitve button smahing that is :P

Regards Wolfe

[LordDave]

Sorry that is not to what i was pertaining,

I understand that some people don't like to be ordered around, but i would imagine it would not be some strict level of "You, engineering Boy increase warp feild output by 10.1%". If it was then simply team up with a better captain.

I would hope it would be a more cooperative experience i.e "Scotty, were dying up here, what is the status of those sheilds", "Coming right up captiain the dilithium matrix is shot we need to bypass" etc etc.

Anyway back to what i was originally highlighting was how having a system where all you do is play final fantasy style point and click to move you NPC around or basically take over its function by becoming a psuedo ship crew GOD with the ability to control every aspect of the ship by pressing a few buttons is any more fun then having a system designed to be controlled by a single person or at least the option to have it controlled.

The problem with NPC crews is that everything will be dumbed down, and lets be honest it will be because if it isn't we will have floods of players like yourself screaming that it is to complex, i can't fire my 'Lazorzs' while moving and repairing and assigining security around the ship.

What it will evolve to will be a simple, 'Oh bugger a ship is attacking, click on engineer, tell to repair damage, click on science officer to scan ship and then i can focus on moving the ship and firing my lazorzs ala SFC or Legacy.

Good luck with that i hope i'am wrong though.

Regards Wolfe

Actually it'll be more like Bridge Commander.
But let's take your scotty example. How do you do this? How do you, as the Chief Engineer player, actually bpyass something? How do you know the chamber was shot to hell? How do you balance realism with fiction? When scotty bypasses the power, it takes him about 10 seconds. What is he doing? He's pressing a button that diverts the power. It works great for scripted sequences, but if all your going to do is run around the engine room pressing console buttons, then you probably won't have any fun. Especially since
1) This is being made for consoles as well so the controles need to be fairly simple.
2) No Game should ever require the user to read the manual to actually play it. Simple Game Play design is one of the major rules of game design.
3) We're in a massive multiplayer universe online. You want those servers to be doing as little processing as possible.

[Varrangian]

You do realise though that you have just replaced 5 complex mini games with one larger but simpler one.

It is all dependent on how you would design each class to work, hard i know but i can live in hope ;).

Now the problem is you have just envisioned a system which is just a clone of WOW in space, you say that if you as a player are constantly doing something then you are having fun, please explain how pressing fire phasers, followed by buff shields, followed by rotate ship ad infindum is exactly the greatest experience in gaming history.

Unless you like the sound of repetitve button smahing that is :P

Regards Wolfe

Hey I got an idea, go get a loan for a few million dollars to build the Star Trek game you want. If you produce something (unlike PE did), good for you. If you can't accomplish it I promise not to say I told you so when the investors come looking for their money back.

[LordDave]

You do realise though that you have just replaced 5 complex mini games with one larger but simpler one.

It is all dependent on how you would design each class to work, hard i know but i can live in hope ;).

Now the problem is you have just envisioned a system which is just a clone of WOW in space, you say that if you as a player are constantly doing something then you are having fun, please explain how pressing fire phasers, followed by buff shields, followed by rotate ship ad infindum is exactly the greatest experience in gaming history.

Unless you like the sound of repetitve button smahing that is :P

Regards Wolfe

I dunno. How is pressing "Scan Planet" all day fun?
But I digress: this isn't WoW in space. Why? Because each ship has it's own NPC crew. You don't have NPC parties in WoW. The closest you get is Hunters and Warlocks with their pets. Now imagine in WoW if every class had pets. That would be STO in space.

Besides, what if your mission was to do some diplomatic work where you talk to an NPC, make a conversation choice, and then go somewhere else to do the same thing. That's not exactly button mashing now is it? That's fun. Reading stories is fun. Acting out stories is fun. Pushing one button for hours on end? Not fun.
Which is why if the game was 100% space combat grind then I wouldn't buy it.

[CdrWolfe]

Well i'am not sure whether it will play about on a console or not we shall wait and see.

For a start i never said it would be easy :), secondly i would be the first to admit that if i were to design a system in which it would have a UI for various system it would be somewhat complex but hopefully accessable to most moderately intteligent people. I understand that there is a tug of war to how you design a game whether it be dumbed down so it is easy to do but perhaps more repetitva end in my view boring.

Perhaps not require the user to read the maunal but lets both hope we are focusing on people who can read?, i'am not sure your syustem would be :P

Now please explain to me how you would envision an NPC system which is interseting and complex and not simply pressing buttons to bark orders which have been dumbed down.

Also answer me how you envision grouping at an early level of gameplay.

Got to go roast beef dinner awaits.

Regards Wolfe

[Varrangian]

Well i'am not sure whether it will play about on a console or not we shall wait and see.

For a start i never said it would be easy :), secondly i would be the first to admit that if i were to design a system in which it would have a UI for various system it would be somewhat complex but hopefully accessable to most moderately intteligent people. I understand that there is a tug of war to how you design a game whether it be dumbed down so it is easy to do but perhaps more repetitva end in my view boring.

Perhaps not require the user to read the maunal but lets both hope we are focusing on people who can read?, i'am not sure your syustem would be :P

Now please explain to me how you would envision an NPC system which is interseting and complex and not simply pressing buttons to bark orders which have been dumbed down.

Also answer me how you envision grouping at an early level of gameplay.

Got to go roast beef dinner awaits.

Regards Wolfe

With NPC crews you have some very interesting options. First part of game play is controlling the (barking orders as you put it), secondly you have the aspect of game play that goes into choosing your crew, choosing their abilities, their race, their equipment. This could become very tactical and interesting. Third you have the option to try and recruit other NPC's into your crew. Fourth you have two sets of crews bridge and general, which is another layer of game play.

And the great thing is none of these are my ideas, this is the complex and entertaining system Cryptic plans.

[PAw]

Seriously enough with these stupid threads.
I could only see maybe smaller ships being able to dock on Massive ships akin to Intrepid or higher for missions.
please enough with these forums.

[Allardyn]

Shouldn't he get a prize?

yes, and here it is.

Borg Cookies!
http://www.metrokitty.com/blog_files/cborg.jpg

[KirksOtherSon]

With NPC crews you have some very interesting options. First part of game play is controlling the (barking orders as you put it), secondly you have the aspect of game play that goes into choosing your crew, choosing their abilities, their race, their equipment. This could become very tactical and interesting. Third you have the option to try and recruit other NPC's into your crew. Fourth you have two sets of crews bridge and general, which is another layer of game play.

And the great thing is none of these are my ideas, this is the complex and entertaining system Cryptic plans.

I seem to recall something about being able to directly control one's NPC bridge crew members at will, as well. You can "jump into them" individually as desired, and run them directlyl?

Maybe I'm wrong ... I've literally been soaking up every piece of legit STO news I can find, and I confess, I can't kept it all brain-indexed sometimes ...

KOS

[Varrangian]

I seem to recall something about being able to directly control one's NPC bridge crew members at will, as well. You can "jump into them" individually as desired, and run them directlyl?

Maybe I'm wrong ... I've literally been soaking up every piece of legit STO news I can find, and I confess, I can't kept it all brain-indexed sometimes ...

KOS

You might be right I've had some mix ups as well.

[LordDave]

Well i'am not sure whether it will play about on a console or not we shall wait and see.

For a start i never said it would be easy :), secondly i would be the first to admit that if i were to design a system in which it would have a UI for various system it would be somewhat complex but hopefully accessable to most moderately intteligent people. I understand that there is a tug of war to how you design a game whether it be dumbed down so it is easy to do but perhaps more repetitva end in my view boring.

Perhaps not require the user to read the maunal but lets both hope we are focusing on people who can read?, i'am not sure your syustem would be :P

Now please explain to me how you would envision an NPC system which is interseting and complex and not simply pressing buttons to bark orders which have been dumbed down.

Also answer me how you envision grouping at an early level of gameplay.

Got to go roast beef dinner awaits.

Regards Wolfe

Ya gotta read mission text to know where to go, lol.

Anyway, the NPC system IS pressing buttons to bark orders. Just as you would be if you commanded PC crew. The PC crew would be the ones pressing buttons as well as orders were barked to them. That's game mechanics, not the fun part. The fun part is when person X of planet Y asks YOU, for help. Not your ship, not your captain, YOU. Then, when you help them, they thank YOU. They don't say "Oh thank heavens the Federation was around." no. They say "Oh thank you (player name)!" You are in the story and treated as the hero. Your not treated as the side kick. Granted this isn't in all games, but in an RPG, it is.
So to recap:
NPC Crews:
-Captain barks orders which are immediately followed.
-NPCs aren't alive, so can't be bored pressing buttons all day.

PC Crews:
-Captain barks orders which are then relayed to the Players.
-Players press buttons all day in response to what the captain wants.

In both cases, it's the same thing for all players. Press buttons to make something happen.
Now with an NPC crew, each captain get's the mission and completes it. He is rewarded for it, thanked, whatever, personally. You'll never hear a quest giver say "Oh thank you NPC Crew Man" for your work. Nor will you hear them say "Oh thank you Science Officer". They say "Thank you Captain for you help." After all, the captain chooses to help.
So really, the fun comes from making the story/adventure rather then just a character in it. That is the fun of MMORPGs.

Now, as for early game play grouping:
-Space-
Well, first off you have ships. Say you've got a pirate outpost that needs taking down. You get two ships together to do it. Or three. OR however many you need. Or maybe you need to ferry X number of people off a planet so you get 3 ships, each doing ferry runs, which cuts the time needed to evacuate them all by 3x. (so 1/3 of the time needed)

-Away Mission-
This one is trickier. We know that ground combat will be run and gun style, but we don't know anything about how non-combat will be. I imagine that if players group together, there will be tasks that require an engineer or science or medic.
Ex:
Planet is being raided. One objective is to fix the well, which requires an engineer. Another is to heal the wounded, and a third is to repel the invaders. Not all at the same time, but it does require team work.



ps.
“A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.” - Antoine de Saint

[LordDave]

I seem to recall something about being able to directly control one's NPC bridge crew members at will, as well. You can "jump into them" individually as desired, and run them directlyl?

Maybe I'm wrong ... I've literally been soaking up every piece of legit STO news I can find, and I confess, I can't kept it all brain-indexed sometimes ...

KOS

Not that I know of, though I did suggest it at one point.

[PAw]

On the webcast during Q&A whats his name said to the effect of
"The bridge crew will be controlled similar to a Mastermind in City of Villains" so akin to pets.