The IP-inspired player economy: Prestige

[Unassailable]

Alright, lets establish a few very obvious things:

A) Economy play, for psychological and longevity purposes, is a very important part of MMO design. A good economy does a game very good. No economy shortens the replayability of the game, and is thus unacceptable.

B) In the Star Trek Universe, money is no longer an object for major factions such as the Federation and the Klingon Empire

C) In said universe, the vast majority of objects needed on a daily basis from food to basic ship components, even large ones, can be replicated easily and without concern for energy reserves.

D) Things that are built, ostensibly, the old fashioned way, ships and starbases, are not, ostensibly, assembled by starship captains and their buddies. Neither are starship captains responsible for directing the funds of their factions, logically.

The Economy as it stands

But! The game needs an economy! The solution... plug players' exploration, and perhaps combat, as nodes in the galactic economy, where all players become, essentially, resource gatherers for the Federation, exploration only to get more crew and ship parts. We are trampling the RP to shoehorn in a gameplay mechanic and function without letting it evolve naturally.

An MMO Economy accopmlishes three main goals: A) Provides a secondary, and more subjective advancement track. B) Provides a timesink for players to invest in, lengthening gameplay in a non-abusive way. C) Creates a more well rounded diverse game.

A Natural Evolution

In the IP, the only such thing that all characters seem to strive for is recognition, or, if you will, prestige. Of course, we've already seen Prestige used, by Cryptic, as the currency, to good effect. Unfortunately, this implementation had one little problem: A lack of commodities. What could you buy with prestige except for the little upgrades and costume changes? Not much worthwhile... and with the pricing and usefulness of Superbases unbalanced, the timesink was too steep to use!

But STO already has a fine commodity: NPC Crewmen. We recruit them, we train them, we transfer them and get prestige for being such great leaders and inpsirations. We can sell skilled crewmen to newbies, or use prestige to purchse them from starfleet, as opposed to going and finding our own crewmen on planets we discover.

The other commodities should still stand, having a prestige cost in addition to rank requirement for getting starships. Having players pool their prestige to purchase starbases for their group or guild. Using prestige for starship upgrades and other visual effects. There's a million ways to make prestige into a worthy timesink, one that blends with the fiction.

But turning us into a universe of combative resource gatherers? That's not a natual evolution, and that's not very Trekky. A much more interesting fluid economy is waiting to be implimented.

Silly Unassailable, Cryptic has already decided what to do, they've already done it!

Well Statesman and the Goat herder have already expressed they want player ideas. So here mine is. And, I seem to recall Cryptic already having a working prestige currency system. Doesn't sound too hard to import/ re-impliment. Sounds like the prestige system is more done than the 'plug in to the galactic economy' idea.

I suggest keeping the resource gathering aspects implimented so far, since that is a part of what exploration should be about... prestige is a part of it too, both irl and in character. But lets face it: Feds are not exactly capitalist. If we can get the MMO Economy effect without stepping on the IP I think that's what should be done.

Questions?
Comments?
Objections? (Please prepare to have these refuted if they are not absolute and proven.)

[Ronisu]

An excellent post, and I hope it gets Cryptic's attention. I also think Jack has it in mind, as he expressed the difficulty with an economy when military officers don't get paid in the recent interviews. I hope they will take prestige into consideration as it is already an established "currency" of the IP.

Ronisu

[Unassailable]

Thanks. I just read the FAQ... it said something about 'Reputation' which sounds cool, but you don't really 'spend' reputation... you can lose it, but once you have it, you pretty much use it and still keep it. Prestige can be intepreted as favor, which you lose when you cash in on it, but "reputation" not so much.

[Unassailable]

Another thought occured to me... what is the exchange of prestige and the exchange of alleigances of people and access to their resources?

Sounds like Politics to me. And managing politics between races? Sounds like Diplomacy.

I say Politics/Diplomacy = Economy for a quintessential Trek MMO.

More on this later.

[Frederikkay]

I would really recommend a combination of actual money (lets say, gold-pressed latinum and prestige where prestige is a non tradeble currency, needed for certain items as wel as gold pressed latinum. This also halts farmers and twinkers a little because buying lots of gear would also require prestige.

[doam]

I hate prestige as money. It's so... uninspired. Not to mention intangible. My monitor got a fist shake, and a loud "bah" directed at it when Jack made his "omg wtf as if" statement&expression. Federation credits are, to me, far more believable than "prestige" or "reputation." Far, far more believable. There *IS* cannon behind the credits. Obviously there is cannon behind them not existing... but whatever. Prestige isn't real. It can't be money.


Gold pressed latinum, of course, should be used for anything not within your own faction.

[Trekkie]

This is an insightful post full of great ideas for the game's economy. I am certainly looking forward to seeing what Cryptic Studios has done to create a believable yet functional economy for Star Trek Online.

[Volomon]

C) In said universe, the vast majority of objects needed on a daily basis from food to basic ship components, even large ones, can be replicated easily and without concern for energy reserves.

This technically isn't true the material used to create this stuff was "black matter" and there was a limited supply of it and it could not be processed on ship.

Also, although the Federation is a strange form of democratic communism, the rest of the Galaxy is not and they do continue to barter. As for "prestige" I see it in game just like honor points.

Will there be an economy?
Many of the details are still in the works, but yes, there will be an economy that makes sense in the Star Trek universe. Since the Federation has explicitly done away with money, expect bartering and trading of goods to be an important part of the economy. Less tangible forms of economics such as Reputation are also not out of the question.

http://shows.hailingfrequency.co.uk/vegas/HF-Emmert-P1-10082008.mp3

[phazah]

I think prestige will work, but its still a form of currency....
in COH, jack used Influence and Infamy as a way to buy things, but it still a form of currency...
and with the creation of the auction houses( i think he & cryptic was still involved at that point) people could purchase equipment, supplies, and recipies for things to build....

IMHO should just use credits and not have credits drop from spawns that one defeats (since the federation member would never kill a creature outright :) unless their life was in danger)

[GungaGeek]

Great post Unassailable,

Seems like I remember lots of Star Trek episodes where star ships end up rescuing miners on some god forsaken rock just before they are vaporized by some foe or other. So, how did they get compensated? Did they dig their lives away just to get a pat on the back and some 'prestige'?

I sure hope thet figure this out. The Economy is an important part of any MMO. If done right it will breath added years of life into the game, if done wrong the opposite could happen.

[arakkis]

The problem with prestiege/reputation as a currency is that it is only redeemable in Starfleet, not even in the Federation. I remember someone saying that Janeway stated in an episode of Voyager, that while vacationing on Vulcan she was "overcharged". Hence even on founding Federation worlds, some form of currency is still being exchanged.

Also, look at DS9. Starfleet officers must have access to some form of currency, or they wouldn't be able to patronize Quark's bar.

No, I think a much more tangible and universally accepted form of currency is required. GPL (gold pressed latinum) comes to mind, but it would be impractical to have to buy a new Starfleet starship with bars of GPL. Perhaps there will need to be a couple forms of currency, with exchange rates?

[Aametherar]

I think Prestige points worked fine in the other ST games and will here too, sure you can only redeem them at starfleet, but you can redeem them for anything starfleet has (within prestige limits of course) and trade that with any other races/species. Obvioussly theres limits based on prestige, if not things just wouldnt work.

[StiM]

There is still trade though, selling something we have for something we dont have cant their be an economy built on that? I am a player and i have harvested some ship building material but right now i dont want to build a ship instead i need deuterium for my engines so i will swap you. Won't that work as an economy?

[Unassailable]

I hate prestige as money. It's so... uninspired. Not to mention intangible. My monitor got a fist shake, and a loud "bah" directed at it when Jack made his "omg wtf as if" statement&expression. Federation credits are, to me, far more believable than "prestige" or "reputation." Far, far more believable. There *IS* cannon behind the credits. Obviously there is cannon behind them not existing... but whatever. Prestige isn't real. It can't be money.


Gold pressed latinum, of course, should be used for anything not within your own faction.

I understand your sentiments, but at the same time, the goal of a player in an MMO is to acquire as much currency as he can. They do extra things for little currency. Get rid of things to get more currency.

In starfleet, credits are not exchanged like that. How much money you have has nothing to do with your equipment, ship, weapons, starbase, etc. Nothing at all. So while it is more believable for players to exchange tangible rewards for goods and services, it is not even remotely cannonical. A tangible economy is not one which players participate in.

Even in the Klingon Empire, by all accounts, 'honor' is the most valuable commodity, not gold pressed latinum. The only faction which seems to value tangibles above intangibles, in which tangibles have a direct effect on their gear is the Ferengi. I say keep it that way.

This is not to say that Credits should not be included, but to have them as "the economy" is a compromise against the IP which I feel is uninspired and unnecessary.

Using an intangible as currency, to me, is a very inspired thing to do. Using money as currency would technically be the uninspired decision.

Great post Unassailable,

Seems like I remember lots of Star Trek episodes where star ships end up rescuing miners on some god forsaken rock just before they are vaporized by some foe or other. So, how did they get compensated? Did they dig their lives away just to get a pat on the back and some 'prestige'?

I sure hope thet figure this out. The Economy is an important part of any MMO. If done right it will breath added years of life into the game, if done wrong the opposite could happen.

Thanks. I think actual currency is a big deal within the fiction. The tangible currency generates missions, but it isn't a goal or a great benefit to the protagonists. I don't think what NPCs get paid has much to do with what PCs get paid, though.

There is still trade though, selling something we have for something we dont have cant their be an economy built on that? I am a player and i have harvested some ship building material but right now i dont want to build a ship instead i need deuterium for my engines so i will swap you. Won't that work as an economy?

It might, but techincally the ship belongs to Starfleet/the government. So does the material you're harvesting. The illusion of ownership should be given, but the game should be designed to reflect the ideals of the fiction to keep the story relevant, or else you just have a REALLY big multiplayer map.

I think Prestige points worked fine in the other ST games and will here too, sure you can only redeem them at starfleet, but you can redeem them for anything starfleet has (within prestige limits of course) and trade that with any other races/species. Obvioussly theres limits based on prestige, if not things just wouldnt work.

I don't see why prestige can't be traded between factions. Dealing with prestigious foes can grant prestige. Perhaps the Klingons call Prestige Honor? How about when you give an item to a ship in need? That kind of philanthropy is common in the shows, but for an MMO, unless there's compensation, ie Prestige, that can be redeemed for other items, then we end up with a bunch of mercenaries posing as explorers. That's not really the kind of vibe I'd hope for in a game.

I think we can keep the positive Effects of an MMO economy without breaking the Fiction.

Still haven't worked up the Prestige Economy = Politics idea... but it has to do with trading a lot of intangibles... they'll pop up on your screen as numbers and icons of course, but fiction-wise they'd be intangibles.

[Unassailable]

Trading Intangibls

In order for politics and diplomacy to work on any real level, NPCs have to have states. States that affect other NPCs. Being able to change these states, to a degree with currency, or Prestige unites diplomacy with economy and creates a player economy that is both unique, deep, and deeply intertwined with gameplay. Now when the Captain is on the view screen, he's not just reading mission text, he's not in some crazy RPG branching conversation system... he's trading. He's playing the game on a very real, viceral, meaningful level.

What I can Buy of an NPC

NPCs have three resources that can potentially be bought with prestige. Alleigance. Assignment. Agreement.

Assignment is easy. You purchase NPCs from their colony that you discover or from Starfleet academy, or from an NPC ship (or from another player!) and they are priced either on their skills or auction style. Now those NPCs are assigned to your ship, to you. You have all their bonuses and stuff. Good for you.

Agreement is hard. Different NPCs have a different exchange rate. You don't know how much to spend initially, so you can debate and trade with the guy, or you can just go for your guns... its up to you. This particular state change can affect others, and then you have a challenge to make the right people agree with you, or a disagreement from earlier in the mission comes back to be a problem. You can Kirk your way through, of course, but there's more "money" in keeping winning people over.

Alleigance varies. Each NPC would have to have at least one alleigance, at least one thing that could chagne their state. These attachments to other NPCs would perhaps affect the flow of trade, the flow of information, or the flow of objectives. Here is where we manipulate the Galactic Economy and Galactic Politics. Opening and closing these attachments can be a mission objective in and of itself, especially if certain other states are required to get certain Alleigances open. Then there's just the plain old buy in price to ally yourself with someone in order to change the alleigances as you interact.

So for small planets and villages, it may not take much prestige to make an impact. For speaking with high-ranking Romulan officials, the prestige may have a great cost indeed. Perhaps the entire playerbase could pool prestige, and change the state of the galaxy in some cases!

[mezlabor]

Alright, lets establish a few very obvious things:

A) Economy play, for psychological and longevity purposes, is a very important part of MMO design. A good economy does a game very good. No economy shortens the replayability of the game, and is thus unacceptable.

B) In the Star Trek Universe, money is no longer an object for major factions such as the Federation and the Klingon Empire

C) In said universe, the vast majority of objects needed on a daily basis from food to basic ship components, even large ones, can be replicated easily and without concern for energy reserves.

D) Things that are built, ostensibly, the old fashioned way, ships and starbases, are not, ostensibly, assembled by starship captains and their buddies. Neither are starship captains responsible for directing the funds of their factions, logically.

The Economy as it stands

But! The game needs an economy! The solution... plug players' exploration, and perhaps combat, as nodes in the galactic economy, where all players become, essentially, resource gatherers for the Federation, exploration only to get more crew and ship parts. We are trampling the RP to shoehorn in a gameplay mechanic and function without letting it evolve naturally.

An MMO Economy accopmlishes three main goals: A) Provides a secondary, and more subjective advancement track. B) Provides a timesink for players to invest in, lengthening gameplay in a non-abusive way. C) Creates a more well rounded diverse game.

A Natural Evolution

In the IP, the only such thing that all characters seem to strive for is recognition, or, if you will, prestige. Of course, we've already seen Prestige used, by Cryptic, as the currency, to good effect. Unfortunately, this implementation had one little problem: A lack of commodities. What could you buy with prestige except for the little upgrades and costume changes? Not much worthwhile... and with the pricing and usefulness of Superbases unbalanced, the timesink was too steep to use!

But STO already has a fine commodity: NPC Crewmen. We recruit them, we train them, we transfer them and get prestige for being such great leaders and inpsirations. We can sell skilled crewmen to newbies, or use prestige to purchse them from starfleet, as opposed to going and finding our own crewmen on planets we discover.

The other commodities should still stand, having a prestige cost in addition to rank requirement for getting starships. Having players pool their prestige to purchase starbases for their group or guild. Using prestige for starship upgrades and other visual effects. There's a million ways to make prestige into a worthy timesink, one that blends with the fiction.

But turning us into a universe of combative resource gatherers? That's not a natual evolution, and that's not very Trekky. A much more interesting fluid economy is waiting to be implimented.

Silly Unassailable, Cryptic has already decided what to do, they've already done it!

Well Statesman and the Goat herder have already expressed they want player ideas. So here mine is. And, I seem to recall Cryptic already having a working prestige currency system. Doesn't sound too hard to import/ re-impliment. Sounds like the prestige system is more done than the 'plug in to the galactic economy' idea.

I suggest keeping the resource gathering aspects implimented so far, since that is a part of what exploration should be about... prestige is a part of it too, both irl and in character. But lets face it: Feds are not exactly capitalist. If we can get the MMO Economy effect without stepping on the IP I think that's what should be done.

Questions?
Comments?
Objections? (Please prepare to have these refuted if they are not absolute and proven.)

Agreed Prestige would be a good form of currency in star trek. A captain like Picard is very repstigous which is what earned him commands of ships like the galaxy class and sovereign class enterprises.

As for the IKE I guess you could use prestige or change the name to honor whatever the mechanic is the same.

Hope they take this idea to heart

[Unassailable]

Agreed Prestige would be a good form of currency in star trek. A captain like Picard is very repstigous which is what earned him commands of ships like the galaxy class and sovereign class enterprises.

As for the IKE I guess you could use prestige or change the name to honor whatever the mechanic is the same.

Hope they take this idea to heart

Exactly! Trek values intangibles in the fiction, its a natural link to have the currency be intangibles!

Now, there are some factions which value tangibles... Ferengi, Borg...

And there are some uses for tangible currency, but not necessarily being involved in a player economy.

[Sabbicat]

There should be some mechanism for currency exchange. Gold Press Latinum / Prestige / Reputation what ever. I'm sure there is a Rule of Aquisition in there somewhere.

[Sarcerok]

By definition "Economics" is the the process of taking scarce resources and deciding what goods to make from them, how to make those goods, and who gets those goods. While I stopped watching TV 25 years ago, I am aware of the issues with replicators. If replicators can make more resources than they require then they break pretty much every rule in the galaxy, and clearly remove the concept of scarcity required for an economy. I personally recommend eliminating or severely limiting the concept of replicators in a game/franchise as they were (in my eyes) just created by lazy writers when they ran out of real material to produce.

So anyways if we are going to have an economy we still need scarcity. If everyone had everything they desired there would be little motivation to work. As far as needing a "physical" currency like gold plated latinum or whatever, right now on Earth over 80% of our "currency" is electronic, I would imagine far into the future that would be closer to 99.9%. Any physical currency would likely not look like currency, it would be barter factors used to trade between civilizations that did not trust each other, or for black market transactions.

As pointed out before by others, membership in any major military organisation (Starfleet, etc) is basicly participation in a communist organisation. There is no individual property ownership, and you have one large planned economy where resources are allocated in the way that "Best serves the mission" whatever that is. Accepting money from outside this economy probably would be prohibited (bribes/graft) if it was not turned over to the organisation. Clearly those people not in this organisation are probably doing something much more market-based but I doubt they will allow us to play free agents that have no military allegience. Much of our mandate will probably be to protect those (semi-) free-market players since they are likely the source of the military budgets in the first place.

So while I live for game-economies, here you have a pretty limited economy for the players. There is this massive economy going on around us but we are pretty much entirely insulated from it. In Eve Online you are a free agent able to make as much money as you can (and I did, I was the richest player in Eve Online until I quit). This is not Eve Online. The idea of prestige or reputation of course has more precidents than I can recall. Not only was this used in CoH, but it has been used in several previous Star Trek games and other games.

The good thing about using prestige as a commodity is that it basicly is an anti-economy. Hopefully you cannot just hand your prestige to another person like a normal good. It is always scarce so there is demand for it but since it is personal you have to work for it. This makes prestige much more valuable because of this built-in scarcity. This makes it more valuable and also resistant to Chinese industrial economy farmers.

The downside of using such an anti-economy in a game is that economic trade/activity is a form of socialization. If I need something, and you have it, we need to interact to create terms of trade and this is an important possible component of play in an MMO. Without it the game does not feel as "Multiplayer". The more you limit interaction in your MMO the more you risk the game feeling like a Massive Single-player Online game with you seeing a lot of other players but never interacting with them. CoH suffered from this because while it was a blast to play with a few friends, you really had almost no incentive to interact with more than a few people ever in that game. The addition of the economy recently is changing that somewhat, but even there most economic interaction occurs in the "faceless" market where there is no barter.

So let's assume we go with the anti-economy where prestige is totally personal and cannot be traded. Even here though the game might still suffer from inflation/devaluation in the sense that in the beginning prestige will be super-valuable (because in the beginning there is zero of it) and later on it will be almost worthless as everyone who plays regularly will have the biggest ship and will be able to buy content faster than the dev team can create it. This was a huge problem in Eve and pretty much every MMO. There are two ways to prevent this but neither has been very popular with developers:

Diminishing Returns: Atlantica Online has been testing this and I have seen some very timid applications in some games like WoW with extra "rest xp". If you make it so that players that play twice as many hours do not get twice as much reward, you generally discourage unhealthful play times (over 8, and definitely over 12), chain playing, farming, etc and you also promote more participation by more "casual" players that might only play a measely 4 hours a day (pansies!).

Taxes : Imagine if your assets decreased over time. In this case say you are an Admiral with 500,000 prestige but you elope from Starfleet to go running around the stars (or your bedroom) with some Andorian Slave Girl. When you get back to Starfleet you might find that in your absence you now only have 400,000 prestige and have been bucked down a rank. This means that you have to play somewhat regularly to maintain your rank. This "gravity" effect pulls everyone down a little and makes it take longer to get to the top. This continues to make prestige more valuable and reduces the rate at which it devalues. It also gives the dev team more time to create new content before the hardcore players burnout. It also gives players an incentive to not cancel their memberships and to keep working on their accounts. Especially if you increase the tax when subscriptions are inactive. Note that a straight tax will effect the players with the most prestige the most. If you lose 1% of 100 prestige that is nothing, but if you lose 1% of 500,000 prestige, presumably it will take more work to break even at the top. Note also that the inclusion of a tax like this creates a theoretical ceiling where at some finite number the tax will equal the prestige gain created by playing 24 hours a day. It might take you 5 years at 24 hours a day to hit it, but it exists and this helps slow the advance of 24 hour-a-day players that are operating outside of the EULA.

Anyways I am not expecting Cryptic to break any new ground with economic planning in their games since it is not their specialty. Economic planning in MMOs in general is still in its infancy. I think China is way ahead on the curve since they get paid (well) to destroy online economies so they have become very sophisticated in this area whereas creating (and defending) online economies here in the US is at best an afterthought (usually thought way too late).

Sarcerok
Virtual Economist

[Unassailable]

You hit on two things I like very much.

A) Solving common economic problems.

Your diminishing returns is great, and I think that is key. I think the gravity thing is very cool, too, as you go higher, you have more downward pull... very cool for the casual, but the full timer is still being rewarded.

B) Non-Trade of prestige.

What you have is almost enforcing the barter system. Since you can't take yoru prestige and just give it, you have to have goods, and you have to negotiate what other goods you want for them. I'd take it a step further and have certain missions needing to be purchased, or have missions which can be given to players of lower rank with prestige attached... now that's a way to give orders... give out mission objectives with money on them... very persuassive, and, perhaps, a very good 'simulation' of the chain of command.

[Crux]

I still think Resources, Technology, Scientific data, Ship energy/Fuel make the most sense. These are things they already trade.

[Unassailable]

Are you talking about having "units" of Scientific data?

[manadarken]

Unbelievably true, no economy=bad game I've said this in multiple threads.

[Crux]

Are you talking about having "units" of Scientific data?

Sure. Every single landing party whips out a tricorder and its the first thing they collect. There were a couple episodes where several ships from different factions went to a planet/star in order to get the scientific readings first. Sometimes the other party would need help and the exchange of the scientific data/readings was used as a trade. I can totally see this as the "unit" in the economy. Obviously there needs to be an economy; MMO's just can't work without something being exchanged.

[aguila432]

Trading Intangibls

In order for politics and diplomacy to work on any real level, NPCs have to have states. States that affect other NPCs. Being able to change these states, to a degree with currency, or Prestige unites diplomacy with economy and creates a player economy that is both unique, deep, and deeply intertwined with gameplay. Now when the Captain is on the view screen, he's not just reading mission text, he's not in some crazy RPG branching conversation system... he's trading. He's playing the game on a very real, viceral, meaningful level.

What I can Buy of an NPC

NPCs have three resources that can potentially be bought with prestige. Alleigance. Assignment. Agreement.

Assignment is easy. You purchase NPCs from their colony that you discover or from Starfleet academy, or from an NPC ship (or from another player!) and they are priced either on their skills or auction style. Now those NPCs are assigned to your ship, to you. You have all their bonuses and stuff. Good for you.

Agreement is hard. Different NPCs have a different exchange rate. You don't know how much to spend initially, so you can debate and trade with the guy, or you can just go for your guns... its up to you. This particular state change can affect others, and then you have a challenge to make the right people agree with you, or a disagreement from earlier in the mission comes back to be a problem. You can Kirk your way through, of course, but there's more "money" in keeping winning people over.

Alleigance varies. Each NPC would have to have at least one alleigance, at least one thing that could chagne their state. These attachments to other NPCs would perhaps affect the flow of trade, the flow of information, or the flow of objectives. Here is where we manipulate the Galactic Economy and Galactic Politics. Opening and closing these attachments can be a mission objective in and of itself, especially if certain other states are required to get certain Alleigances open. Then there's just the plain old buy in price to ally yourself with someone in order to change the alleigances as you interact.

So for small planets and villages, it may not take much prestige to make an impact. For speaking with high-ranking Romulan officials, the prestige may have a great cost indeed. Perhaps the entire playerbase could pool prestige, and change the state of the galaxy in some cases!

Ok so Im gonna buy Ensign Oconnor with prestige points...
Cadets and officers are assigned to ships for training and or duty or placed there through request of transfer.

Basicly your saying we get to buy what we want through reputation?
Im not up for grinding and farming for what I want in this mmo :( 10 years of it kinda wears ya down ya know? Cant we do something star trekkish where oh I dunno there is no need for any of this? lol just gimme a ship and lemme runamuck! no i kidd, great ideas here I'll be watching this thread.

[ulissesmt]

I think that reputation should be the base of the STO, not only for economy but for development of the char too. The player will gain reputation when defeat opponents and complete quests and can spare this in new ships, upgrades, crew development, skill evolution and char promote.

There should be some types of planets/stations

1- extract planet/station that will farm materials like dilithium, etc.

2- industrial planet/station that will process this materials in ships and upgrades. This planet/station will open quests for people transport resources from the 1 types planet/station. The engineers can work at this planet/station helping producing upgrades and the ships.

3- military, trader planet/station that will need the products of the 2 type planet/station and will open quest for the transport

These planet/station will play a important role in pvp, since they can be occupied by others factions, stopping or slowing the economy process.

The reputation earned in combat or in this quests can be spend at this bases for buying or for training. The player can save reputation to gain a promote and have access to others ships classes. The player cannot be demoted even he have lost or spend reputation after reaching a rank. Ex.: need 1000 reputation points to be a commander, the player have 1200 and spend 1000 in promotion. Now he have 200 points but still have de rank.

Also, I never saw anyone buying stuffs in ST, they can trade with other races but with resources and not with money.

In Michaelis dictionary:
sm credit: a) trust, trustworthiness. b) good reputation, repute, prestige, esteem, regard, merit, honour. c) reliance in a person’s solvency. d) authority, power, influence. e) faith, belief. f) trust, commercial credit.

[TheMasterpiece]

An excellent post, and I hope it gets Cryptic's attention. I also think Jack has it in mind, as he expressed the difficulty with an economy when military officers don't get paid in the recent interviews. I hope they will take prestige into consideration as it is already an established "currency" of the IP.

Ronisu




As long as its not like SFC its ok. SFC was horrible in every way. STO needs to have an economy obviously for many reasons. prestige and reputation could be mixed along with maybe performance rate all to make the best players the "richest"

[AchillesHeel]

Alright, lets establish a few very obvious things:

A) Economy play, for psychological and longevity purposes, is a very important part of MMO design. A good economy does a game very good. No economy shortens the replayability of the game, and is thus unacceptable.
Unbelievably true, no economy=bad game I've said this in multiple threads.
I like Unassailable's ideas, but I disagree with this first premise. Or, rather, I would amend it.

In the sense that some gamers demand an active economy, and not having one would shrink the game's potential audience (just as not having PvP or player-designed avatars would), it's a valid point. As with any other feature that might make or break a game for an individual gamer, the economy must be implemented in such a way that it's optional. Personally, I hate getting deeply involved in a game's economy. "Crafting" is possibly the most insufferably boring aspect of any MMO I've ever played. The player-run economy of Pirates of the Burning Sea is the sole reason I've never given that game a try, for example, and probably never will.

To me, though, this could be a great strength of Star Trek Online, and it's because of the Star Trek IP: Simply put, anyone who doesn't want to deal with the in-game economy should join a faction that doesn't have one (such as Star Fleet), and anyone who finds an interactive economy to be vital should not. This is why I think we need another faction, and it shouldn't be the Romulans (although I do think they should be a playable faction). Potential groups for this third faction could be Ferengi and Orions, both of whom are explicitly defined by Star Trek lore as cultures emphasizing the accrual of economic power. It's of course an oversimplification (this being Star Trek, after all), but the Ferengi are essentially "the good/moral Capitalists", and the Orions - specifically the Orion Syndicate - are "the evil/amoral Capitalists."

Like everything else in this game, I would like to see the economy of Star Trek Online mirror the economy of Star Trek. Essentially, there could and should be two economies, a "win-win" for the players.

[Korrific]

Largely agree with AchillesHeel - IMHO, whatever player economy exists should exist for the sake of supplementing the core game experience. The actual "economics" of the UFP or the Klingon Empire should be background (i.e., plot motivators, hooks, etc.), but captains should mostly be able to ignore economic activity.

I very much like the idea of prestige/reputation/honor being the effective "currency" of the game, but I'd want to see it be more of a sort of "points system" than actual currency. That is, as a captain successfully completes missions and/or explores, he/she/it gains reputation - and that reputation serves as a cap on the resources the captain has access to via the fleet and/or colonies in the captain's faction. In other words, the total "value" of your ship, its customized components, and crew are limited by your current reputation level. If the ship gets damaged or crew are lost, captains can get replacements from starbases or colonies without having to "pay" anything - the fleet covers the losses (although maybe losing crew or failing missions might cause some sort of reputation loss or "debt"). In short, the fleet will gladly do what it takes to keep a worthy captain in space.

Reputation in this sense would not be directly transferrable - but I can see captains trading components or crew freely so long as the trades are automatically documented with central command. As far as interfacing with currency-based economies, maybe a fraction of your rep can be converted to currency - possibly to the displeasure of central command (and hence the commensurate reduction in debt).

Anyway, just thought I'd throw this out there.

[AchillesHeel]

I very much like the idea of prestige/reputation/honor being the effective "currency" of the game, but I'd want to see it be more of a sort of "points system" than actual currency. That is, as a captain successfully completes missions and/or explores, he/she/it gains reputation - and that reputation serves as a cap on the resources the captain has access to via the fleet and/or colonies in the captain's faction. In other words, the total "value" of your ship, its customized components, and crew are limited by your current reputation level. If the ship gets damaged or crew are lost, captains can get replacements from starbases or colonies without having to "pay" anything - the fleet covers the losses (although maybe losing crew or failing missions might cause some sort of reputation loss or "debt"). In short, the fleet will gladly do what it takes to keep a worthy captain in space.
This is essentially what I was thinking, too. The tricky part is how to implement this alongside a regular economy. I think the simplest solution is to not intermingle the two playstyles at all.

If you're in Star Fleet, for example, you requisition things via Prestige/Reputation/whatever. Federation Credits are issued to Star Fleet personnel, but they're only useful for trade with non-Star Fleet people. And FedCredits might not even be that useful, as many non-Federation merchants won't accept them, and demand latinum instead. Simple barter would be possible with anyone, of course (which is where the latinum comes in, but you can barter anything).

If you're a Ferengi, an Orion, or a civilian, you don't get to requisition anything. If you want something, you have to buy it. To preserve balance, Reputation would still be useful, because it would determine whether someone will something to you. A Ferengi might not sell a state-of-the-art Quantum Torpedo launcher to someone he doesn't know, regardless of the price. At the same time, a ship captain in one of these factions might have more latitude than a Federation captain in how she outfits her ship.

[Flatfingers]

A fine exploration of these issues, Unassailable. You and the other posters have hit on pretty much all of the major pros and cons.

To summarize a little, and to add a few of my own notes into the mix:

1. Prestige seems like a pretty reasonable way to accomodate both Star Trek lore (citizens of the Federation tend not to use straight-out currency when interacting economically with other Fed citizens, but the Federation absolutely does have an internal economy) and conventional MMORPG gameplay (some kind of economic subgame is win-win for players and the game's publisher).

2. But, as often noted, if players are permitted to freely trade prestige among themselves in STO just like currency in other MMORPGs, then "prestige" is just currency under a different name. At that moment it generates all the pathologies (economy-skewing farmers, gameplay-distorting RMT) seen in those other games.

3. OTOH, flatly eliminating all forms of player trading in prestige also eliminates a lot of opportunities for interesting social gameplay.

4. Therefore a good area for discussion would be to study what limits should exist on how prestige can be traded among players so that most of the benefits are gained without most of the problems. I've developed some ideas for that in one of my Admiral-Level Gameplay in a Star Trek MMORPG (http://flatfingers-theory.blogspot.com/2007/11/admiral-level-gameplay-in-star-trek_29.html) essays. Basically the idea is that players would be able to create missions for players of lower rank, and the reward for successfully completing missions would be both a transfer and a creation of prestige. You can't just give away prestige for nothing, but there's still a useful and fun way to be able to spread it around to other players. I'd be interested in hearing what others think about this. (The linked essay gets into the important details.)

5. How would this work for non-Federation characters? To keep the game from getting too complex, non-Federation characters (i.e., Klingons) probably need to use prestige to "buy" rank, ships, and NPC crew, too, but do they still also use some form of currency? What about NPCs from non-playable factions like the Ferengi -- how will Fed players be able to "buy" things from them? Should Fed players also be able to sell things to currency-using NPCs? If so, what would they receive that would be of value to them that isn't just a 25th-century version of the ancient practice of barter? This is another very good area for further discussion.

6. Finally, there's the overall question of what features an "economy" should have in a Star Trek Online. This isn't the right thread to get into all the aspects of that question, but as it relates to prestige there's an important point to note: an economic system is not interesting if wealth can only be transferred. If it's to be interesting enough to be worth implementing as part of a MMOG, there must be a way to create wealth.

This gets to the heart of how the Federation economy works, and makes prestige look pretty good, because prestige as defined by many in this thread captures most of the advantages of wealth without turning it into mere money. But a consequence of this approach is that if prestige can't be traded freely, then the critical mechanic defining how effective prestige is as a carrier of economic activity in a gameworld must reside in how players create it.

The short version of my thinking on this is that while the Federation is (as it's often described) a "post-scarcity economy," that does not mean there's no wealth, nor does it mean there's no internal economy. What it means is that the emphasis for this society has shifted from the accumulation of wealth to the generation of wealth, and that "wealth" has become defined less by physical property than by intellectual property. In a socioeconomic environment like that, everybody gets the basics (which can be replicated), but those who contribute more (by generating more intellectual capital) are provided (presumably by the government, or quasi-governmental institutions) with more non-replicatable resources to further their productive interests. [Note: There are some serious questions of human nature being glossed over here which I believe would prevent something like this from working in the real world, but this is the fictional world of Star Trek we're trying to explain with semi-plausible processes.]

I've written at some length on this subject here (http://flatfingers-theory.blogspot.com/2007/05/economics-in-star-trek-mmorpg.html), here (http://flatfingers-theory.blogspot.com/2007/05/economics-in-star-trek-mmorpg_12.html), and here (http://flatfingers-theory.blogspot.com/2007/06/economics-in-star-trek-mmorpg.html); for now, and to keep this note from getting any longer, I'll just suggest that it might be fun and instructive (and maybe even useful) to consider specific ways in which prestige can be generated in a Star Trek MMORPG. In particular:

6a. How does prestige relate to crafting, which is one of the two main ways of creating wealth in MMORPGs?

6b. The other main way of creating wealth (although it also destroys a rather odd form of wealth) is loot taken from destroyed enemies. Should prestige be lootable?

6c. All MMORPGs with crafting allow players to bring new items into the gameworld. But no major MMORPGs allow players to create new kinds of things. (A Tale In The Desert, while interesting, is not a "major" MMORPG; and Second Life, while it allows the creation of new kinds of things, is not a game.) So suppose Star Trek Online offered some sort of construction-kit feature that allowed players to create entirely new kinds of things within the gameworld -- would that be interesting as a major non-combat means for generating prestige (perhaps along with diplomacy)?

6d. Speaking of prestige through diplomacy, this opens up a really fascinating set of possibilities. One concern I have, however, would be with a mechanism of directly trading personal prestige for diplomatic success. Rather than that, it might be more fun to make prestige a reward for diplomatic gameplay actions that increase the positive faction of a target individual or the group they represent toward your character's client. (If your "client" is the Federation, then getting someone to like the Federation more earns prestige for you.) I imagine this being implemented as a minigame based on knowledge about other factions and their general interests, and on "reading" other beings and their specific interests -- a sort of poker game where the goal is to allow everybody to think they've won, but where only you and your allies really have. :)

Right, enough from me! I'm looking forward to hearing the further ideas of others here....

--Flatfingers

[ulissesmt]

The player should get prestige points completing quests and defeating opponents (and lose prestige points if the quest fail or he has been defeated) and spend not only at economy but in the evolution of the character, "buying" skills and ranks.

/agree with Korrific say about reputation/prestige cap. I like the idea.

[r2data]

What if, you had a prestige system, as outlined above, but separate from that have also a commodities trading system? Raw materials, crafted items, ship components could be barter traded amongst players while acquiring things centrally, from Starfleet would be in the form of prestige.

As for trading with other factions, perhaps, having a certain amount of prestige with Starfleet allows you to have an equivalent amount of gold-pressed latinum in the ship stores. This would fit with canon as Starfleet does have a reserve of gold-pressed latinum for interactions with cultures that are still using money. Commodity barter-trading would also be available between factions.

EDIT: Well not quite as above. I wouldn't agree with a taxation system for prestige. It would make it too much like real currency. Prestige is an indication of your status with Starfleet, not tangible wealth so a system of Starfleet taking away some standing would be a little off. They'd have nothing to do with it and it'd deprive players for nothing.

[Sinclair]

I have always felt that the "we don't need money anymore" line by Picard and others in the Federation was always written to convey a sense of human cultural evolution, and it sounded good in theory for a quick television episode or even movie, but in practice it doesnt make tons of sense. An economy of some sort has always existed in human culture. The advent of monetary systems is the apex of that. Going back to having to 'trade items" is on the level of bear skins and knives. Trade an apple to John to get an orange from Ted so that you can get a banana from Steve?....Money of some form is far easier and makes more sense. Surely things like real estate still have value on Earth, people have to live somewhere, but how are they obtaining that? That is just one example. We could all go on I'm sure. But because of this, I think Trek really blew it when they went with the over the top utopianism of "no money". Because of this, I would give the STO developers a lot of slack in anything that they might want to come up with.

Now, as for ideas, if the economy is based on trading, I would suggest setting up a bazaar run by Ferenghi and base the system on gold pressed latinum. Say that a latinum craze has swept the quadrant or something. Create new RP lore. Beyond this, paying with reputation items collected in game sounds feasible, but it also sounds like it could be complicated.

[mintor426]

I hate prestige as money. It's so... uninspired. Not to mention intangible. My monitor got a fist shake, and a loud "bah" directed at it when Jack made his "omg wtf as if" statement&expression. Federation credits are, to me, far more believable than "prestige" or "reputation." Far, far more believable. There *IS* cannon behind the credits. Obviously there is cannon behind them not existing... but whatever. Prestige isn't real. It can't be money.


Gold pressed latinum, of course, should be used for anything not within your own faction.

said need used 3 currency federation credits , klingon darsek and rest gold -press latium


a. fed credits

b. cause in the time line fed and klingons not allies any more , make more sence klingons have own currency witch is darsek.

c. Ferenghi and rest of the non- federation worlds use gold-press latnuim. Ferenghi only take gold-press- latnuim. they teach at young age to gain wealthy .

[DeathCarrot]

Each faction having it's own currency and then one universal currency can work and would probably be the easiest way of doing things. The factions exchange rate from their own money to latinum could be based on how powerfull the faction is on the galactic stage.

[mirkrim]

Alright, lets establish a few very obvious things:

A) Economy play, for psychological and longevity purposes, is a very important part of MMO design. A good economy does a game very good. No economy shortens the replayability of the game, and is thus unacceptable.

B) In the Star Trek Universe, money is no longer an object for major factions such as the Federation and the Klingon Empire

C) In said universe, the vast majority of objects needed on a daily basis from food to basic ship components, even large ones, can be replicated easily and without concern for energy reserves.

D) Things that are built, ostensibly, the old fashioned way, ships and starbases, are not, ostensibly, assembled by starship captains and their buddies. Neither are starship captains responsible for directing the funds of their factions, logically.

The Economy as it stands

But! The game needs an economy! The solution... plug players' exploration, and perhaps combat, as nodes in the galactic economy, where all players become, essentially, resource gatherers for the Federation, exploration only to get more crew and ship parts. We are trampling the RP to shoehorn in a gameplay mechanic and function without letting it evolve naturally.

An MMO Economy accopmlishes three main goals: A) Provides a secondary, and more subjective advancement track. B) Provides a timesink for players to invest in, lengthening gameplay in a non-abusive way. C) Creates a more well rounded diverse game.

A Natural Evolution

In the IP, the only such thing that all characters seem to strive for is recognition, or, if you will, prestige. Of course, we've already seen Prestige used, by Cryptic, as the currency, to good effect. Unfortunately, this implementation had one little problem: A lack of commodities. What could you buy with prestige except for the little upgrades and costume changes? Not much worthwhile... and with the pricing and usefulness of Superbases unbalanced, the timesink was too steep to use!

But STO already has a fine commodity: NPC Crewmen. We recruit them, we train them, we transfer them and get prestige for being such great leaders and inpsirations. We can sell skilled crewmen to newbies, or use prestige to purchse them from starfleet, as opposed to going and finding our own crewmen on planets we discover.

The other commodities should still stand, having a prestige cost in addition to rank requirement for getting starships. Having players pool their prestige to purchase starbases for their group or guild. Using prestige for starship upgrades and other visual effects. There's a million ways to make prestige into a worthy timesink, one that blends with the fiction.

But turning us into a universe of combative resource gatherers? That's not a natual evolution, and that's not very Trekky. A much more interesting fluid economy is waiting to be implimented.

Silly Unassailable, Cryptic has already decided what to do, they've already done it!

Well Statesman and the Goat herder have already expressed they want player ideas. So here mine is. And, I seem to recall Cryptic already having a working prestige currency system. Doesn't sound too hard to import/ re-impliment. Sounds like the prestige system is more done than the 'plug in to the galactic economy' idea.

I suggest keeping the resource gathering aspects implimented so far, since that is a part of what exploration should be about... prestige is a part of it too, both irl and in character. But lets face it: Feds are not exactly capitalist. If we can get the MMO Economy effect without stepping on the IP I think that's what should be done.

Questions?
Comments?
Objections? (Please prepare to have these refuted if they are not absolute and proven.)

Very nice post, man. I am in full agreement.

One thing not mentioned that I would enjoy, is a credit-based free market for non-functional items such as civilian clothing, cultural artifats, etc.

[.Spartan]

An excellent post, and I hope it gets Cryptic's attention. I also think Jack has it in mind, as he expressed the difficulty with an economy when military officers don't get paid in the recent interviews. I hope they will take prestige into consideration as it is already an established "currency" of the IP.

Ronisu

I was thinking of a different type of system based on some well known global model systems. For those that dont know about global modeling I suggest reading the following (http://books.google.co.jp/books?hl=en&id=4YuNF52vOVAC&dq=global+models&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=qxyj-1mvDe&sig=GYHOI5XEKWOi5TfJJUEOZz869lE&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPP2,M1). However given that Cryptic already has a developed system based on prestige and the ideas presented here I think using such a system would be the best option all things considered.

[PraetorianHistorian]

I was thinking of a different type of system based on some well known global model systems. For those that dont know about global modeling I suggest reading the following (http://books.google.co.jp/books?hl=en&id=4YuNF52vOVAC&dq=global+models&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=qxyj-1mvDe&sig=GYHOI5XEKWOi5TfJJUEOZz869lE&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPP2,M1). However given that Cryptic already has a developed system based on prestige and the ideas presented here I think using such a system would be the best option all things considered.

Being that you want to play a Romulan, what about the fact that Romulans use currency? I'm sure you don't want some Starfleet officer visiting Romulus and trying to pay for his souvenirs with "prestige"?

Salesman: "That'll be 10 t'chak!"
Officer: "I don't have that but I did once rescue a Bajoran emissary from the Gorn! That's worth prestige!"
Salesman: "....10 t'chak...."

I think the best and only solution is to just use Gold-Pressed Latinum (GPL) as the currency standard. I think you all need to read up on Star Trek canon because there is an economy in it. Check out this website. (http://www.coldnorth.com/owen/game/startrek/universe/source/money.htm)

Starfleet crew do get paid in credits and they can transfer those credits to GPL at any given time. While on Earth they may never need to spend a single credit as everything they need is provided for them, off planet they do need GPL. Credits are handy on Earth for luxury items.

[.Spartan]

Being that you want to play a Romulan, what about the fact that Romulans use currency? I'm sure you don't want some Starfleet officer visiting Romulus and trying to pay for his souvenirs with "prestige"?

Using the system as the primary in-faction currency does not preclude using other devices for inter-faction action. As I said I was thinking of different system but I can see the poetic elegance in such a system with regards to ST.

[Ptahk]

A really excellent post. If truth be told I am still trying to get my head around some of what you said. :confused:
I'm not having a go in any way but I can't see the bit in your post where it mentions the word fun. I play mmo's to have a laugh and enjoy myself. If what you said can be implemented into the game to make it a great and fun experience then that would make me a happy trekker. The dev's truly have a massive job on their hands. I can't wait to see what they come up with.

[Azarel]

A really excellent post. If truth be told I am still trying to get my head around some of what you said. :confused:
I'm not having a go in any way but I can't see the bit in your post where it mentions the word fun. I play mmo's to have a laugh and enjoy myself. If what you said can be implemented into the game to make it a great and fun experience then that would make me a happy trekker. The dev's truly have a massive job on their hands. I can't wait to see what they come up with.

Even though basic commodities are provided by the federation anything else:

valuable items, player discovered technologies, player discovered resources, and cartographic knowledge might be traded in the economy. For example:

You find a planet that has a piece of technology and after completing diplomatic relations or a number of quests for the authorities of the planet you secure for your ship a piece that can be fitted to it that is unique and advantageous. Later you might find something better to put in its place, then you will be able to trade it for other resources (bars of whatever valuable substance that can be traded). That is how I imagined the game economy running. Trading NPC crew members is an interesting idea based on the fact that you will be able to get bonuses for different races (some of which you may be the first to find according to the webcast) being on your ship as part of the NPC crew. I think that is a great idea to diversify the economy of STO. Anyway, that's how I thought the economy of the game would be. Prestige would normally be used for more advanced ships and technology that the UFC would provide. If you have more prestige perhaps in addition to your regularly issued ship you could specify some specific preferred customizations as it is issued to you.

Thats my two cents.

[Luminora]

I was inspired initially and continue to be so when I first heard Picard state in First Contact that 'We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity'. The necessities are provided by your work for the Federation, whether it's through Starfleet or not in the form of credits which you use to obtain a residence, your food, clothing etc. If you want more credits you have to work for it.

I find it hard to imagine how an economy would fit exactly into the game unless it's an open market. There's so much in this thread alone I'm afraid my brain is a tad frazzled. A few things come to mind though please bear in mind I haven't thought them through to the end. This topic is rather inspiring so I'm just going to throw ideas out there.

Gold pressed platinum is obviously going to be in there.

Converting these credits into a form of currency that is usable elsewhere isn't good, as far as I'm aware Fed Creds cannot be traded for other currencies or even to other people if you go by the canon (except in naughty gambling situations). The federation credit system is just a bookkeeping system. You could use your prestige allotments (within established limits) to procure certain materials/objects etc to then sell/trade on the open market for gold-pressed latinum (GPL). I don't see any way that trading fed credits for something with anyone outside the Federation would be considered or even other cultures within the Federation as to me it is evident that other civilizations in the federation have their own separate economies/currencies. There would need to be a currency exchange of sorts, or perhaps falling back to the open market, where you can trade your goods procured with prestige (or from missions, salvaging or from trade etc) for GPL, a sort of base currency for those within and outside the Federation to use as a standard form of currency.

Replicator rations (other than the basic rations you need), shore leave and holodeck allotments have also been traded in the shows but on a barter system (or bets!) I don't agree with prestige allotments being traded for Fed Creds, trading prestige itself would go against the grain for me and against the canon itself, you'd just see prestige farming going overboard and characters solely for that. Some would argue that players who don't get to play so much would like to have access to prestige to buy/trade - I say, too bad. In Fleets (guilds) you can pool resources that you gain via prestige and you can help other Fleet members out.

I'm in favour of the above mentioned open market system with a base currency, GPL, that other races can participate in and convert into other currencies (not Fed Creds) whether they are part of the Federation or not.

I'm not entirely sure what you would buy though, luxuries I guess. The basics are provided already through service to Starfleet/the Federation and one can obtain a more luxurious residence through credits acquired via generating credits with your prestige (or gaining prestige), I guess obtaining decor for your home, buying real estate on other planets, personal space-faring and land transportation, personal holodeck time (not tied in with allotted holodeck time while on duty) and more clothing etc could be a part of the economy you are talking about - but it would have to take place outside the federation economy - the open market. So much is provided by your service to the Federation (or to the Klingon Empire) that I really can't identify what would really drive the economy in the game. Would you allow players to just rely on their service to Starfleet/Federation//Empire to provide what they need (excluding what players need for vanity reasons) or would you want to see some things as necessary to procure by other means so that players are forced into participating in the player economy? I wouldn't agree with that.

To sum up, I can only see using prestige/credits to procure items from the Federation to trade on the open market for other items or for GPL as working in STO but what you would need to do that for, besides vanity, escapes me. I don't agree with players trading items, credits or any currency for prestige. It really goes against the canon to do so. That there are other cultures in the Federation who have their own economies separate to the Federation run one on Earth I see as being a way to implement the open market that I've mentioned into the game.

The established credit system takes care of so much, what is left besides vanity items? I'd be really interested in hearing your suggestions even if they go against canon. Any technology you discover on missions isn't yours to sell or trade if you go by canon yet I hear that is what will happen. It's ultra confusing to me!

[Deadzone]

You really can't have a 'one-for-all' approach in a MMO. When you have two sides to anything, both sides ideals are usually very different.

B) In the Star Trek Universe, money is no longer an object for major factions such as the Federation and the Klingon Empire

Where does it say that the Klingons don't use a money based economy? I was only aware that the Federation used the 'socialist' frame of government.

And as other people have brought up, all the rest of the Galaxy uses money. So your system really wouldn't work mate..IMHO of course. Its just not logical :)

As for replicators....well, TBH I think we would have to get rid of them. Yea, they have been a part of ST lore for a long time but in terms of building a viable economy for this game, they can't be usable. And if they were, they could only be used in limited fashion.

The way I could see a VERY viable economy is as follows:

EVERYTHING should be player produced/producible. Whether it be torpedos, tri-corders, manufacturing outposts, shipyards...anything.

You start by using your faction prestige to "buy" the ability to build items. IE- after a couple missions, you hit SFC and buy the ability to produce tri-corders.

So now, you head out and go mine whatever resources you need from asteroids or you head to a planet to mine whatever goods you need. Resources can of course come from planets, asteroid belts, gas-clouds, ..etc...

After you collect the ingredients, you head to a manufacturing base. This can be a star base, someplace on a planet or a PC built station. You then put in all the ingredients in an proceed to build you item(s).

Now it gets a little tricky I guess. You can have your science skills or trade skills...manufacturing skills even if there are any to affect the outcome of the build. You might also be able to add other components to the build ingredients to affect the tri-corder, giving it some increased ability or added ability that is new. You know, increasing whatever it is tricorders do

I can't get into specifics as I really don't have the time atm but this type of system can work for anything. For the larger items IE- shipyards, ship hulls and whatnot, you obviously will need multiple people. But you would be able to manufacture the structures in 'parts' and move them to the assembly area. There the person with the skills to build the shipyard or sensor array puts the pieces together.

I personally think that increasing the stats(via tinkering or invention) of say, a shipyard or the major components of a ship really can't be advanced or altered unless that is part of the original design( advanced hull design from starfleet) but you can build and possibly produce a better warp core or better phaser or comm-array). All depending on skills and ingredients...etc.

[.Spartan]

I hope what ever system is developed it is inherently designed to defeat gold farmers. With that said I think this franchise is perfectly designed for them given the Ferengi race. Thus I think all gold farmers should be allowed to play as the Ferengi only. Such a system is shear beauty in its simple elegance and will support the cannon and lore, after most people hate Ferengi since all they care about is GPL and that is all the gold farmers care about as well. I think it would quite well.

[Deadzone]

I hope what ever system is developed it is inherently designed to defeat gold farmers. With that said I think this franchise is perfectly designed for them given the Ferengi race. Thus I think all gold farmers should be allowed to play as the Ferengi only. Such a system is shear beauty in its simple elegance and will support the cannon and lore, after most people hate Ferengi since all they care about is GPL and that is all the gold farmers care about as well. I think it would quite well.


Everyone declare war on the Ferengi!

To be hinest though, I don't think you could ever get rid of gold farmers in any game. They will always be there. Whether its farming gold to sell or farming items.....I really don't know how to get rid of them.

[Sythian]

Another thought occured to me... what is the exchange of prestige and the exchange of alleigances of people and access to their resources?

Sounds like Politics to me. And managing politics between races? Sounds like Diplomacy.

I say Politics/Diplomacy = Economy for a quintessential Trek MMO.

More on this later.

Which leads to Reputation. Ones reputation with a given Race, Faction, Organization, etc. This should take a role in the economy. The Federation does use credits to exchange/trade with others out side of the Federation.

[Nightstorm]

Wow this is a great thread with a lot of info and interesting ideas. It's going to be interesting to see how Cryptic goes about putting together an economy that fits within Star Trek canon but that also works well for today's MMO. Undoubtedly, some compromises will have to be made.

The one thing I hope the devs keep in mind is that if they do not want RMT in their game or more realistically they want to reduce the impact of RMT in their game, they'll have to keep that in mind through every stage of development.

1) What game mechanic(s) help encourage RMT? Is it just the ability to trade coin that makes RMT easy to accomplish, or are their other factors?

2) What are the common ways RMT takes place in a game?

3) How can those practices be controlled and reduced so they have the least impact?

4) What tools can the devs make available to players to help combat RMT?

5) What tools can they give CS to help control RMT?

There's a ton more questions they can ask themselves but the key is if you don't plan for dealing with and reducing RMT throughout development (especially in the planning stages) and after then you're going to have a ton of problems and your community and your game will suffer.

Farmers/RMT workers worm their way in as early in the development stage as they can and that's where they start working on ways to exploit your game for their benefit and it's getting worse and worse with each new MMO that's released that does not want to cater to RMT.

[Surak]

Since i played star wars galaxies a long time here is what i say economyu copuld be

Ressources are really limitless but somethings cannot be replicated as Latinum for example. It can be some for of VALUE for trade yes But we would trade goods, things may be replicated but it would still required someone to make and plan the things replicated, you can replicate a cench you already have

But to design a NEW bench, something above the average you need a decorator to make the replicator plans for you

A simple customization of a ship require the engeneer carrer path to do it, and it would take time and much more. Traders could carry custom goods, historical goods, things like art and furniture not replicated or made with materials not replicable THAT could be exchanged by other non replicable values

So economy to me would have a basic stats with replicator plans that you can use to program your replicator not transferable and cant be copy, ant hacker security lol protect the copyright !

And the crafted art rare goods unreplicable material, almost smuggling stuff, like a latinum tooth sharpener and so on

We have many good ideas just like to add a few more, hope i have not said what many already told :)

[LCDSeattle]

This whole thread makes me want to play Ferengi more and more. Just don't for one moment think you'll get anything from me with your Starfleet reputation. : )

[meridianblade]

Great idea! Bumped in hopes a dev see's this!

[Angelphoenix12]

Thanks. I just read the FAQ... it said something about 'Reputation' which sounds cool, but you don't really 'spend' reputation... you can lose it, but once you have it, you pretty much use it and still keep it. Prestige can be intepreted as favor, which you lose when you cash in on it, but "reputation" not so much.

Very well thought out idea i like it. it sounds like coty of with influ and imf. i think prestiage should be for ships. like the amount of missions you did successfully. :)