Repeating mistakes of old

[DrEgo]

Yes, this is another appeal for crew positions but from a slightly different angle than most, hence the new thread.

Back when SWG was in development, when it was nothing but potential, I wanted to be a Jawa. More than that I wanted to play a Jawanese engineer who ran a little shop that attracted visitors from across the galaxy for my fine engineered goodies. However Jawas were not a playable race. Why? Because Jawas only live on Tatooine and...

"Players won't want to be limited like that"

Similarly, I had an idea of becoming the commander of a Star Destroyer, working my way up through the ranks until I was in command. I'd envisaged starting as a Stormtrooper, manning various outposts in shifts. However this was not implemented because...

"Players won't do that"

Then there was the Jedi fiasco, where all of a sudden many players were abandoning their characters in order to grind to become a Jedi because...

"This is what players want"

I'm here to say, stop deciding what it is I do and don't want please.

I want immersion. I want to live in the Star Trek universe I've seen on TV, I don't want to be a combat character I want to be Quark. I want to be a bureaucrat at Star Fleet headquarters. I want to be a ceremonial guard. I want to tend to Trill symbiants. In short, I want to be the kind of player that makes your game better, that prevents it becoming Enterprise Drag Racing Online, or Here Come The Borg... Again... Online.

In UO, SWG and to a lesser extent EVE, players are given the choice about how they fit into the world and the world is richer as a result. Instead of dealing with robotic quest givers and vendors you're negotiating with other humans, providing a more varied gaming experience than AI will ever offer. Take the best cantinas from SWG, or the player cities, or the shops - these were all game enhancing areas of the game for all players, not least of all the ones involved in running them. Meanwhile this player interest in player designed areas of the game is keeping the dev designed instances and adventures fresher. It's making it so people aren't simply grinding, it's making the journey the point, not the destination.

Ever since EQ, MMO developers have been fixated with the levelling treadmill grindfest and as such have trained the playerbase that there is an overall objective to the game - get the high level. In so doing you are making a rod for your own back. First off you've created a natural churn-out point, second you've added the need to create ludicrous "end game" content ad infinitum.

I'm not saying that everyone will happily join in with this more social style of MMO play, but not all of us want to be Kirk. I'd sooner make sure that Kirk's ship had a phaser refire rate faster than others, I'd sooner get reassigned to serve on Janeway's ship for a month, or to a remote colony to repair their transporter system. Quests need not be "go here, kill this, come back" (rinse/repeat until level 50). They can be "report to moonbase alpha for two weeks". That's right, give me walls I can see, rather than fixing me to a railed progression system like World of QuestquestquestDing.

City of Whatever is a superb idea for a game, but you know what? I don't want to be a hero. I want to be the most famous reporter in the city, and I want an office to go to in the morning. I want to add flavour and colour to your games, and not simply jump onto the same rollercoaster as everyone else, levelling like everyone else, hitting my level cap like everyone else, buying the best ship like everyone else. WoW has introduced the concept of the massively single player game, and that's not what I and others like me want.

"The players won't do that" is quite quite wrong. Some may not, but you need to remember that if you're looking for imaginative ideas for your game you can go in the right direction by tapping into the thousands of imaginations your have populating it. Give us the tools to form the immersion, environment and interest in the game and we will do. Fail to provide these tools and we'll lose interest rapidly and you'll be stuck with ADD, content hungry levelquesters, rather than those who want to do nothing but provide content.

[Dext]

all we know is that they told us it will not be in the game at first.

[Necro]

you need to look at it from a game developers perspective, there are features which may be enjoyable to some such as playing a jawa or exploring jeffery's tubes but are in such a minority and don't really enhance overall gameplay that developers just dont have time to add.

[cylon8]

no offense but how on earth could you ever incorporate all that into one game and keep it interesting to EVERYONE? when it comes down to it an mmo still has to make money to survive. Designing a game around the needs of the one or few is illogical. If you're so convinced thats the kind of game people want, go get some investment capital and build your own game....personally you'd fail miserably.

[ibby1kanobi]

In EVE, everyone flies a ship. They don't get choices. Your the captain of a ship and no one else can join you on your ship.

Your asking for Cryptic to make a second life for you. Get the hint.....second life? What your requesting is undoable. No company, in this date and time, can make an MMO where someones a janitor, another is a reporter, someone is a doctor, etc, all in the same game, all doing interesting and motivating things.

It is impossible to do in even 10 years.

[KidBang]

Yeah, these type of things are possible in more focused non-graphics based RPGs, but in a MMORPG setting, it's just sheer insanity to expect every single option for every single person.

[KidBang]

And BTW, this thread really didn't add anything new to the conversation. Not saying you shouldn't have posted it, but your

Yes, this is another appeal for crew positions but from a slightly different angle than most, hence the new thread.

wasn't all that new.

[lumin]

I agree with the OP.

They've said they're trying not to make Star Trek in a WoW wrapping, but that's exactly what I'm hearing.

* Instanced Areas - Check (most believe there will be instanced worlds)
* Insta-travel - Check (Warp gates)
* Single-player focus - Check (solo-pc-manned ships)

Another worry is that development of a game always start out with grandiose ideas, and end up being stripped-down versions of the original features (Look no further than Black and White, Fable, Spore...)

So even if some of my check-points above haven't been totally confirmed, I'm willing to bet that that's what's going to happen in the end.

The developers aren't the problem. They WANT to do what the OP said. It's the publishers who want to make a buck and cater to the tried-and-true formulas. Over the years I've learned that if you want originality you have to look at Indi-developers, not mainstream studios.

The concept is similar to our election process. Our president gets elected because he is "bought" by donors and lobbyists. He has to follow the policies they are pushing since they have paid for him to be President. In reality our Presidents have good intentions at heart, but they don't have any room to move since they are owned by someone else.

[TheDart]

On the topic of player crews...

Cryptic has never said "Players won't want to do that."

On the contrary, they've said "We know players want to do that - but we have not yet figured out how to make it fun."

On the topic of playing non-combat characters...

While this may not be as much of an option as we'd like at launch (I'm sure that if we REALLY tried, we could focus on exploration to the exclusion of everything else and still advance our characters), future updates and expansions may well introduce neutral parties and non-combat advancement options.

We'll just have to wait and see.

[Cyjack]

I want to be a collector of exquisite porcelain dolls in the star trek universe. I will pay my 15 bucks a month to sit there and stroke their pretty hair.

I will name them Greta, Starlina, and Snazzy-Sue, and we will be for each other, forever.


When will Cryptic learn to give the fans what they want??

[KidBang]

I agree with the OP.

They've said they're trying not to make Star Trek in a WoW wrapping, but that's exactly what I'm hearing.

* Instanced Areas - Check (most believe there will be instanced worlds)
* Insta-travel - Check (Warp gates)
* Single-player focus - Check (solo-pc-manned ships)

Another worry is that development of a game always start out with grandiose ideas, and end up being stripped-down versions of the original features (Look no further than Black and White, Fable, Spore...)
.

Uhm...have you even played WoW??

WoW has very few instanced areas. It could use them to be honest. Just so I don't have to wait for a guy to respawn so I can cut his head off too.

Insta travel - I WISH!! Can't even get a steed or speed boost until level 20. Got so sick of walking from place to place, I had to switch to a different game

And STO's fleets seem like the core of the game from what I've seen, not exactly single player focused.

[asx]

/facepalm :rolleyes:

[Admiral_Patrick]

If Jack really meant the stuff he said at the conference they WILL find a way to incoprporate this. Unless you really think it is IMPOSSIBLE to have player crews, which is a pretty brash, and i presume unfounded, assumption.

To the OP: I'm hoping for this just as much as you are, but you are misunderstanding one thing. Their primary objective is not to make an imaginative game that is fun for all players. It is to make money. Lots and lots of money. And why shoudlnt it be? It's their obligation as a company to do so. So rest assured that no matter what you or I might think of what the game should be like, they are going to follow their data and make a game that will make the most money possible.

[lumin]

Uhm...have you even played WoW??
WoW has very few instanced areas. It could use them to be honest. Just so I don't have to wait for a guy to respawn so I can cut his head off too.


Okay, you win. It's worse than WoW since most of the planets will be instanced.

In an "infinite universe" who has to wait for anything?

[KidBang]

And you know this how?

[Thibor]

The problem any developer faces when taking on a well established intellectual propertly like Star Trek, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Conan, etc etc is that there tends to be loads of lore, much of which has been digested and re-digested by the passionate fans, such that as empowering as it can be to work with a franchise such as ST, it also has it's boundaries.

But, one thing they have to decide on early on is scope. Exactly how much are we the players going to become involved with.

People view MMOs as persistent worlds and because of that feel that the entirety of an established IP should be faithfully recreated for them to mess around with. The reality is that the developers are creating a space for us to enjoy (hopefully) fun game play mechanics within a known unvierse.

If those game play mechanics are going to be limited to combat and exploration and allowed to play only either Star Fleet or Klingon, so be it. If they add playable factions for the Romulans and Borg, so be it.

The problem is that there is no way they're going to create it ALL in any foreseeable time frame. They have to focus on the elements they think will make for a fun and immersive game. If that means you don't get to set yourself up as a wheeling -n- dealing bartender on a space station, so be it.

Cryptic is making a mmorpg that will compete with the likes of WoW, Warhammer, EQ, Eve, etc.
They're not trying to create The Sims: The Star Trek edition.

[R4mp4ge]

The devs don't have magic content generators ala heisenberg compensators, when you ask to have every single minute detail of a universe spanning over 4 decades of development, you are asking for the impossible.

what Cryptic has already promised is well beyond the limits of what most developers even consider feasible, by most standards ship to ship combat, and personal avatar combat are two COMPLETELY different games, asking for piles and piles of other stuff that can't possibly be delivered is just stupid.

I'm all for radically different career concepts, for instance forgoing spaceship command to take command of a stardock or mining facility or research station, or maybe you don't want to go into combat but fly a freighter or a garbage scow around trading valuable Items or hauling away unwanted refuse. But starting off as an ensign on a big ship and working your way up is completely impractical, what hapens when none of your friends are online? does wessely crusher command the USS enterprise by default? Think your demands through, they way the have it now you start out with a low rank, and command small ships and work your way up, how's that so much different, it just means your on the command path early, and you still have your primary career, be it tactical, science, diplomat, doctor or whatever else they have.

[DurMan667]

I LOVE ARGUMANTS BACED ON ASSUMPTION! I LOVE IT I LOVE IT I LOVE IT!!!!

Anyway, your argument is well stated and understandable. However, I would personally hate a game that took away from expanding your gameplay horizons so that you could start up a small business in the middle of nowhere and sell rocks to people. They want to make this game appealing to non-Trekkies and Trekkies alike. I want to play it because I can explore a familiar universe and seek out various new stuff. You want to play because virtual businesses are easier to start and more likely to hire than real ones.

[T-child]

im agreeing with you in a way here.
the SWG aspect with the cantinas and citys and more really made the game what it was, then they where stupid enogh to make a wow copy in star wars spirit, BIG mistake.

for once, the skill system in SWG was GREAT! i made my own class, i chose what i wanted to be, and i could even remake it anytime i wanted.

anyway, about the starships bridges as it's ends there all the time.
they have not said that they WONT implant it to the game.
they just said that it wont be at the start.

giving us an npc crew is better then we end up sitting at a starbase trying to get a full crew all day long.
look at wow instancing, sitting half day long to get a party is not fun, if i had the option in wow to get a npc party to fill in id take the option in no time.

so that were getting npc crews first is good, if they then find a way for you later on to ither turn them off compleatly for real players or even mix, then that is great.

but if i or anyone else for that mather want's to solo sometime or just in generall play alone alittle, what right do you, i or anyone have to refuse that player that option?

i understand the feel you all want with sitting on a bridge with your friends i really do.
but it's better then nothing at all.
i really just hope they give our "crew" some ai that is alive, and not just standing at a station all day long, or make me enter a emty ship with bots at thire stations all day long, i want a living ship crew.

a good game is a game where the players a free to build thire characters with skills they want, where players can build where they want, where they can explore what they want.

an open sandbox, giving the player freedome.

games like wow, where your restricted by a premade class template and with a pre determined set of quests and skills is not freedom, to be honest when i look back at it and this i don't understand how wow could be such a hit, but that's a discussion for another time/place.

[BrettBretterson]

It seems like you wanted to do a star-wars version of LARPing. Why bother using a computer if this is really what you want to do?

Why couldn't you have just pretended to be a stormtrooper all weekend for a few months, then pretended your were a petty officer, then a section chief, then a department head, then logged in and made your character as a star-destroyer commander?

Guess what? The computer is not really a good medium for imagination. Computers are good at keeping track of vast amounts of data, and displaying that data on a screen. They will only show you what they have been programmed to show you and only accept such input as they have been programmed to accept. Computers are not some sort of mechanical substitute for other people when you want to roleplay.

[Admiral_Patrick]

It seems like you wanted to do a star-wars version of LARPing. Why bother using a computer if this is really what you want to do?

Why couldn't you have just pretended to be a stormtrooper all weekend for a few months, then pretended your were a petty officer, then a section chief, then a department head, then logged in and made your character as a star-destroyer commander?

Guess what? The computer is not really a good medium for imagination. Computers are good at keeping track of vast amounts of data, and displaying that data on a screen. They will only show you what they have been programmed to show you and only accept such input as they have been programmed to accept. Computers are not some sort of mechanical substitute for other people when you want to roleplay.

That could be the most dull, unimaginative thing I have ever read on a forum.

[BrettBretterson]

And you have a better idea to satisfy the requirements laid out by the OP?

Why play an MMO if all you want to do is spend 8 hours sitting around half AFK waiting for someone to come "browse" through your wares? When I'm on the computer I actually prefer to be using it, and I think that I speak for the majority.

[JemarqueMarquis]

I will be the first to say that players do not always know what they want. Back at the begining of MMO's Ultima Online nerfed their pvp community to make it more care bare, there was a huge up roar. Another game maker called Wolf Pack Studios said" we will give you what you want." And they made a pvp oriented game called Shadowbane. It was hot at first, but the lack of game depth caused it to crash and burn. The game is now just barely limping along. So do we want PC bridge crews or not, we really dont know.

[fidgetwidget]

I will be the first to say that players do not always know what they want. Back at the begining of MMO's Ultima Online nerfed their pvp community to make it more care bare, there was a huge up roar. Another game maker called Wolf Pack Studios said" we will give you what you want." And they made a pvp oriented game called Shadowbane. It was hot at first, but the lack of game depth caused it to crash and burn. The game is now just barely limping along. So do we want PC bridge crews or not, we really dont know.

THANK YOU! I am so glad someone said it.

Imagination is great at masking the truth. It might be great in your head, but until you have it in front of you, for some, you cannot prove that it isn't great. This is why there are so many bad games, because the idea seemed great, but when you attempt to make it a reality, it just doesn't work out.

I do suspect that player crews will come in the future as they prototype some ideas, and find what works and what doesn't, but most of what people are asking for from player crews already exist in the concept of 'fleets'.

I look forward to actually getting my hands on the game, and enjoying what Cryptic has made for what it is.

[lumin]

THANK YOU! I am so glad someone said it.

Imagination is great at masking the truth. It might be great in your head, but until you have it in front of you, for some, you cannot prove that it isn't great. This is why there are so many bad games, because the idea seemed great, but when you attempt to make it a reality, it just doesn't work out.

I do suspect that player crews will come in the future as they prototype some ideas, and find what works and what doesn't, but most of what people are asking for from player crews already exist in the concept of 'fleets'.

I look forward to actually getting my hands on the game, and enjoying what Cryptic has made for what it is.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think he was defending having PC crews in the game. Like he said, Ultima Online got worse when they took the depth out of the game, not the other way around.

In any case, you could make the argument either way. A player may not know how much fun it is to control his own NPC crew, and a player may not know how much fun it would be with a real PC crew. I guess that's why most people are asking for both so we can't go wrong :)

[Admiral_Patrick]

I look forward to actually getting my hands on the game, and enjoying what Cryptic has made for what it is.

I just cant stand it when you, as consumers, say that stuff. I mean you just admitted that if Cryptic served you a festering pile of dung on a Star Trek platter, you would eat it up. Not me. Their other games are good for what they are, but they are going to have to earn my money. And if you, as a consumer, would demand a better game, you would get one. Saying that consumers dont know what they want is preposterous. What he meant to say was that not all consumers want the same thing.

I can understand having high hopes that the game that Cryptic releases will be fun and enjoyable; I want the same thing. That is presumably why we are all on these forums participating in the community. But you can participate in the community without eating up every line that the developer gives you. They do not always know themselves what is best for the game, they are just trying to make the best, most profitable game they can.

I'm not going to claim that I know the best way to make the game, because I don't have the slightest idea, however I do know what I want. What I do know is that if they release a Star Trek MMORPG that I, myself deem entertaining enough, and meets enough of my expectations, I will spend money on it. Probably more than I should. However, if they release a Star Trek MMORPG that I, myself, deem to be not worth paying for, I will not purchase it. I implore each and every one of you to exercise your same rights as consumers so that eventually we will get a decent Star Trek MMORPG, either from Cryptic or from another developer.