Borg TOO WEAK

[mendal]

Borg are shown to be quite a bit weaker than they were in Voyager series and quite a few people are not cool with this. I mean if the trailer video just wanted to show that they are in the game why show federation ships being almost as strong as borg. In any case I just had an idea that maybe we need to reserve them for sort of higher level mobs and help cryptic to come up with some other mobs/monsters/enemies to go after at first and then once your fleet is pretty strong then you can go after THE BORG.

Lets show some respect to the most evil race in ST universe.

[pl1ght]

Borg are shown to be quite a bit weaker than they were in Voyager series and quite a few people are not cool with this. I mean if the trailer video just wanted to show that they are in the game why show federation ships being almost as strong as borg. In any case I just had an idea that maybe we need to reserve them for sort of higher level mobs and help cryptic to come up with some other mobs/monsters/enemies to go after at first and then once your fleet is pretty strong then you can go after THE BORG.

Lets show some respect to the most evil race in ST universe.

I think 30 years after Nemesis, starfleet has shown they are capable of handling the borg threat at a greater capacity than when voyager was taking place. I dont see the issue with it tbh.

[IanD967]

plus Starfleet had actually lost that fight with the Borg in the trailer heh

when you see the ships registry you can still see a few cubes around and no starfleet ships at all which indicate that they got destroyed.

plus i believe the Borg are back to their pre-Voyager selves as you dont see them talking alot and instead get straight into scanning ships and attempting to assimilate them :)

[Bazil]

But the borg would adapt! They would assimilate any new technology that starfleet develops, they would develop defenses against it and use the technology to their benefit. They are borg!

[k.mpok]

Borg are shown to be quite a bit weaker than they were in Voyager series and quite a few people are not cool with this. I mean if the trailer video just wanted to show that they are in the game why show federation ships being almost as strong as borg. In any case I just had an idea that maybe we need to reserve them for sort of higher level mobs and help cryptic to come up with some other mobs/monsters/enemies to go after at first and then once your fleet is pretty strong then you can go after THE BORG.

Lets show some respect to the most evil race in ST universe.

I agree and I think the series have been going done this same route since the Voyager story line. Back in the TNG days the Borg where the Big Bad Guys from down the street that would eat you and your dads lunch but now they seem weaker and can be bested by a single ship or two. I am hoping they are going to think about this and work it in.

Maybe that is the reason we are seeing (Mostly) just the Alpha Quadrant now with rumers/speculations of later quadrants being expansions. if they follow this route then by the time they reach the 4 expansion or so we should be strong enough to be ready for a confrontation with the Borg.

[GeneStarwind]

yes its 30 years later there was probably lots of development in anti-Bog technology like how it was shown in the future of the last episode of Star Trek Voyager

[mendal]

I agree that in the finaly of Voyager tech from future was used (plated armor of some sort) but even with that they didn't have much time to waste flying around borg till they figure it all out and blast them to pieces even with future tech.

[Typheron]

your basing your assesment on a 30 second clip of in game footage, perhaps waiting until we see more is in order.

[Everitt_Cage]

yes its 30 years later there was probably lots of development in anti-Bog technology like how it was shown in the future of the last episode of Star Trek Voyager

and in those same 30 years the bord would develop COUNTER anti-borg techonology. the 30 year argument doesnt fly, because both sides had 30 years, not just the borg. the fact is the borg are supposed to be the big baddies in the ST universe, and degrading them to being the same strength as everyone else will only end up in them not being cool anymore

[GeneStarwind]

and in those same 30 years the bord would develop COUNTER anti-borg techonology. the 30 year argument doesnt fly, because both sides had 30 years, not just the borg. the fact is the borg are supposed to be the big baddies in the ST universe, and degrading them to being the same strength as everyone else will only end up in them not being cool anymore

but the borg only advances in technology by assimilating there is no creativity the only way they could fight against anti-Borg technology would be to assimilate it

[Cryptic_Fan_101]

Yes, because one Borg sphere getting blown up while simultaneously engaging no less than eight Federation starships—AND a STARBASE—is clearly "TOO WEAK".

Geesh. You do appreciate Janeway accomplished more than that with a single ship?

[connobi]

You get this from a 60 second teaser trailer?

I think maybe waiting for the final game & playing it would give you a better place to make that call from.

[mendal]

You get this from a 60 second teaser trailer?

I think maybe waiting for the final game & playing it would give you a better place to make that call from.

I get your point. I just have a concern. By the time we start playing the game it will be a little too late.

[renef78]

Personally speaking, I'd like to see a situation where it takes upwards of 30 ships to successfully engage a single Borg cube. The appearance of just one Borg cube should be enough to get every single player within spitting distance into a panic. That's my wish, anyway.

[bitgolem]

Oh, for ****s sake... It was a TRAILER. A goddamn ad for the game. Will you people please quit going all ballistic over media promotion stuff. Let the game come out and then see what is and isn't in the game. THEN you can whine to your hearts content and herd the nerfs into their pen and kill them.

[ReynoldsXD]

The voyager, in its whole carrear, only destroyed one borg vessel. A interceptor type thingy hardly the same size of voyager.

The Voyager did NOT blast cubes left and right, it did NOT blast spheres left and right and that tactical cube was about to kill the ship.


The only instance where voyager destroyed borg vessels was in endgame and thats with 30 year-ahead technology.


All other borgship-deaths in Voyager were tied to other other events like: A hostile speciaes of badly done cg creatures living in a puddingspace, a drone that had 29th century tech, natural occurences decimated the borg vessel beforehand, transwarpchannels collapsing, space, q, weird things.


So voyager actualy did not do much borg vessel bashing.

Stealing and infiltration: oh yes and its the borgs damn own fault for being so conceited!


Regarding the borg in sto:


DO YOU THINK THEY HAVE BEEN IDLING AROUND OVER THERE IN THE DELTA QUADRANT?!
FOR 30 >>!<< Years ?!

Thats a lot of time to assimilated a whole lot of species and the delta quadrant was full of species that were quite advanced in technology.

Voth, Hasari, Hirogen, Krenim, Devor and a whole fckn lot more.

If the borg came back to the alpha quadrant to face what seems to be THEIR nemesis -the human race and its merry friends- they sure as hell came prepared for the worst.

So pull that head of yours outa yer collective asses and trust in cryptik that they will not degrade the borg into somekind of grind-mob.

Boy you people are one annoying bunch. Im gonna phaser half of you to death once the game is released.

[mendal]

Personally speaking, I'd like to see a situation where it takes upwards of 30 ships to successfully engage a single Borg cube. The appearance of just one Borg cube should be enough to get every single player within spitting distance into a panic. That's my wish, anyway.

I completly agree. 1 Borg against 20+ SF ships is close to truth.

[Father_Origin]

Lets not forget one little thing.

The borg advance as well.

[Dext]

We really cant say there week or not we only seen a small part of the fighting. an with the time that has passed we dont know what kind of tech is there now.

[Teza]

well i can see that people think the borg could be to weak but then they could also be to strong i mean i would probably want to think of the borg as a type of boss type enemy were it may take you and a few mates to take it down like a group type of gaming experience as there isn't much of a hint to many group ship activities.

[Cryptic_Fan_101]

DO YOU THINK THEY HAVE BEEN IDLING AROUND OVER THERE IN THE DELTA QUADRANT?!
FOR 30 >>!<< Years ?!

Did you conveniently forget Unimatrix Zero or what happened at the conclusion of Voyager's final season? How 'bout Enterprise taking out a Sphere in First Contact?

Maybe they haven't been "idling around" for the past thirty years, but that's no reason to assume they've advanced significantly either. The Borg are formidable, but hardly infallible.

[Crazyfist]

But the borg would adapt! They would assimilate any new technology that starfleet develops, they would develop defenses against it and use the technology to their benefit. They are borg!

Agreed.

I want to have the ''OH **** ITS THE BORG'' feeling again when i see ONE borg ship
Atm its oh theres about 13 borg cubes and 20 spheres. We can do it if we modulate our phasers right.

[HyorD]

I believe they may have shown that battle the way they did because they wanted to show us a bit of action; deciding on difficulty levels for various species will probably come later.

That being said, I hope the Borg are restoed to their former glory:
When the Borg were first introduced, one of their great strengths was said to be their ability to adapt. However, in Voyager, Borg were portrayed as horrible tacticians, with adaptation limited to rotating shield frequencies and the like; not very impressive.
In TNG, the Borg were frightening because they were shown studying us and disecting our ships, as though we were nothing more than research specimens to them. In Voyager, the only way the Borg could research anything was by penetrating their research specimens with their assimilation tubicles; not very impressive.
In TNG, resisting the Borg often seemed futile; there was a strong risk that a battle against the Borg would get you assimilated. In VOY, the Borg learned that resisting Captain Janeway was futile; she would assimilate their Drones, and dress them up in catsuits... ...not very impressive!

Give us only rare glimpses of Borg; rare glimpses of frightening, powerful, constanty adapting Borg!


pagh ta'jaj jo'nganpu' 'ombogh vay''e' !

[ParkerHayden]

Yeah, I want to crap my pants when I see a random Borg cube come out of nowhere, call any allies nearby for help, and do what we can to destroy it. If all else fails, we get the hell out.

[Reinkaos]

We can do it if we modulate our phasers right.
Remomdulation (and inversion) are the answers to everything. Remodulate your phasers and don't give them a chance to adapt! :D

[Reinkaos]

In VOY, the Borg learned that resisting Captain Janeway was futile; she would assimilate their Drones, and dress them up in catsuits... ...not very impressive!


I found that rather impressive actually :p

[UnknownParadox]

your basing your assesment on a 30 second clip of in game footage, perhaps waiting until we see more is in order.

I agree totally. Stop basing Borg weakness on a 30 second movie clip of the game at its current state.

"We are BORG - beta testers™... Strength is irrelevant. Resistance is futile. We wish to improve ourselves. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your Beta servers will adapt to service ours." :D

[LivingHellfire]

Borg are shown to be quite a bit weaker than they were in Voyager series and quite a few people are not cool with this. I mean if the trailer video just wanted to show that they are in the game why show federation ships being almost as strong as borg. In any case I just had an idea that maybe we need to reserve them for sort of higher level mobs and help cryptic to come up with some other mobs/monsters/enemies to go after at first and then once your fleet is pretty strong then you can go after THE BORG.

Lets show some respect to the most evil race in ST universe.

I'm not sure that anyone has mentioned this or not, but perhaps you should wait until the gameplay is evident not judge this kind of thing based on a three second clip in a 90 second trialer for a game that's still over two years away...

Just sayin'...

EDIT - Apparently it has been mentioned. Carry on.

[Reinkaos]

Yeah, I want to crap my pants when I see a random Borg cube come out of nowhere, call any allies nearby for help, and do what we can to destroy it. If all else fails, we get the hell out.

Didn't Cryptic say there's another enemy out there, a bigger threat than the Borg? I hope they don't mean Species 8472.

But aye, I watched Best of Both Worlds yesterday.. I want that feeling - "ooh crap" - when I see a Borg vessel. And I want to send a subspace message to Starfleet Command, that "we have engaged.. THE BORG". You could hear the dread in his words. The dread is what I want in the game.

I wonder if they'll implement alternative solutions, in the way Data put them to sleep by accessing their comms systems, too, or if the only answer to a Borg cube would be shooting at it.

And I hope that the devs can somehow get the Borg to adapt to player's tactics and weapons :eek:

[UnknownParadox]

I hope that the devs add one well hidden mission were your Federation ship has to investigate a dorment cube designated Cube#347 :)

Star Traks: BorgSpace is a tongue in cheek story about a group of Borg who have kept part of their original personality. Very funny worth a quick read.

[Everitt_Cage]

Oh, for ****s sake... It was a TRAILER. A goddamn ad for the game. Will you people please quit going all ballistic over media promotion stuff. Let the game come out and then see what is and isn't in the game. THEN you can whine to your hearts content and herd the nerfs into their pen and kill them.

you just dont get it, do you?(rhetorical question, because the answer is obviously no). yes, it was just a trailer. but what we saw MAY very well reflect how weak the borg will be in game. why complain if we dont know for sure? hopefully, to make sure that by the time the game DOES come out, any POSSIBLE problem will have been corrected. i dont know how you lead your life, but if something may be a problem its best to take care of it BEFORE it comes back to bite you. "hmm, i wonder what this strange growth is? oh well, i'll wait and see if it turns into cancer before i do anything about it".

[LivingHellfire]

you just dont get it, do you?(rhetorical question, because the answer is obviously no). yes, it was just a trailer. but what we saw MAY very well reflect how weak the borg will be in game. why complain if we dont know for sure? hopefully, to make sure that by the time the game DOES come out, any POSSIBLE problem will have been corrected. i dont know how you lead your life, but if something may be a problem its best to take care of it BEFORE it comes back to bite you. "hmm, i wonder what this strange growth is? oh well, i'll wait and see if it turns into cancer before i do anything about it".

And, at the same time, it might have no indication whatsoever.

In that clip there's no way to know what happened. Did a boarding crew disable the shield on the ship? Was the battle going on forever anyway and that was the result after a fifteen minute battle? Maybe the ship in question was hit with overloaded torpedoes just in the right spot?

C'mon, man... can't you wait just a little longer before you cry wolf?

[LordDave]

you just dont get it, do you?(rhetorical question, because the answer is obviously no). yes, it was just a trailer. but what we saw MAY very well reflect how weak the borg will be in game. why complain if we dont know for sure? hopefully, to make sure that by the time the game DOES come out, any POSSIBLE problem will have been corrected. i dont know how you lead your life, but if something may be a problem its best to take care of it BEFORE it comes back to bite you. "hmm, i wonder what this strange growth is? oh well, i'll wait and see if it turns into cancer before i do anything about it".

Voy: End Game.
Transphasic Torpedoes
Borg Collective Crippled.
30 years of R&D by the Federation, including help from 7 of 9 and Janeway's grand experience with the collective. (She did beam into a borg sphere and take stuff) PLUS the Hanson's research.

Need I say more?

[JFendley]

Well the Borg are very advanced. What I don't understand is how they don't control everything already.

[Everitt_Cage]

And, at the same time, it might have no indication whatsoever.

your aboslutely right. but either way, its better to be safe than sorry. its better to go ahead and complain that the borg look too weak and have the devs assure us that they wont be than not to say anything and then have sissy borg when the game comes out.

[Everitt_Cage]

Voy: End Game.
Transphasic Torpedoes
Borg Collective Crippled.
30 years of R&D by the Federation, including help from 7 of 9 and Janeway's grand experience with the collective. (She did beam into a borg sphere and take stuff) PLUS the Hanson's research.

Need I say more?

what you fail to realize is that the 30 years is not one sided. the borg have also had 30 years to adapt to the transphasic torpedos and analyze any strategy that janeway and voyager used against them.

[LivingHellfire]

your aboslutely right. but either way, its better to be safe than sorry. its better to go ahead and complain that the borg look too weak and have the devs assure us that they wont be than not to say anything and then have sissy borg when the game comes out.

You realize that the entire dev team is studying canon and know precisely how powerful the Borg is, right?

It's also not like they can't tweak the game after they release it.

In the grand scheme of things, I really don't think this is worth worrying about, but you are, of course, as free as any of us to complain about a game that isn't even close to being beta'd yet.

[Crazyfist]

If some fool thinks transphasic torpedoes developed in the true timeline will damage the borg alot, theyre badly mistaken.

The sole reason future janeways transphasic torpedoes were effective against the borg, is because

THEY WERE FAR FROM THE FUTURE.

*boils*

:P

[Everitt_Cage]

You realize that the entire dev team is studying canon and know precisely how powerful the Borg is, right?

once again, go back and read my post and notice the words "may" and "possible". we're discussing the possiblity that the borg may be too weak. if their not, then great.

It's also not like they can't tweak the game after they release it.

if you honestly think that its better to fix problems after a game is launched than before then im glad you dont work for cryptic.

In the grand scheme of things, I really don't think this is worth worrying about, but you are, of course, as free as any of us to complain about a game that isn't even close to being beta'd yet.

your probably right. in fact, none of the things anyone is posting will probably matter very much in the end. but we're all here, arent we?

[ibby1kanobi]

I don't think the original creators of the Borg in the STNG ever expected them to play such a huge part in the storyline of the series. I mean, at Wolf, it was just what? 1 cube that was making it's way towards Earth? If the Borg stayed as strong as they were originally...theoretically it would only take 3-5 cubes to destroy the Alpha Quadrant; something I think the Borg would have no problem fielding.

You can't have an unstoppable baddie, because then, whats the point? I think they totally began to take the Borg out of context in Voyager to a ridiculous level. Now everyone else afterwards has to explain the situation.
I think it's fine to give Starfleet some type of weapon(s) against them.

Anyway, haven't you guys heard that the Human brain is more powerful than a computer? So if the Borg can create such powerful weaponry, then why can't Starfleet eventually do that?

[Genixx]

well, maybe one part of the online experience is they start out very tough and with explorations we will be doing...we will find better ways to deal with them. im just curious to know...how will they deal with it for us? will we get be able to get assimilated. :)

[Everitt_Cage]

I don't think the original creators of the Borg in the STNG ever expected them to play such a huge part in the storyline of the series. I mean, at Wolf, it was just what? 1 cube that was making it's way towards Earth? If the Borg stayed as strong as they were originally...theoretically it would only take 3-5 cubes to destroy the Alpha Quadrant; something I think the Borg would have no problem fielding.

You can't have an unstoppable baddie, because then, whats the point? I think they totally began to take the Borg out of context in Voyager to a ridiculous level. Now everyone else afterwards has to explain the situation.
I think it's fine to give Starfleet some type of weapon(s) against them.

Anyway, haven't you guys heard that the Human brain is more powerful than a computer? So if the Borg can create such powerful weaponry, then why can't Starfleet eventually do that?


for the record, wolf was an exception because picard was commanding the borg attack and knew all the weaknesses of the federation fleet. and by the sound of your last statement, it sounds like you too are forgetting that the 30 years is not one sided. yes, starfleet may have advanced alot during that 30 years, but the borg have too.

[jdfimage]

In VOY they had to make the Borg somewhat clumsy and bumbling. I mean there was only one ship. It's not like the Borg could be portrayed as they were in TNG because frankly if they had the Borg would have moped the floor with ole'Katty and her little band of buddies.

That being said a lot of you here keep say "we should underestimate the Borg" and "their biggest strength is adaptation."

Sure, the Borg would have recovered in some small pocket of the Galaxy from the hell Janeway through their way in EG. They would have picked up the pieces and I am quite sure gone about their merry assimilating way. They would have grown stronger and probably a little meaner from the the experience and in 30 will probably have come a long way...

BUT so will the Federation, Starfleet and the other powers in the Alpha Quadrant. They will have had further contact with the Borg. They will have adapted also. We adapt too! So no the technological evolution won't have been one sided but since the future hasn't been assimilated we evidently been able to keep pace.

One more thing in echo of a few wise persons above lets not judge the Borg that we'll face in the game based on what we saw in 1 tiny trailer. We don't know what led up to that moment or what followed. All we saw was one tiny sphere decimated. That's not much to go on.

Thanks for reading. :)

[LordDave]

what you fail to realize is that the 30 years is not one sided. the borg have also had 30 years to adapt to the transphasic torpedos and analyze any strategy that janeway and voyager used against them.
Oh no doubt. But also remember, Unimatrix 01 exploded after the pathogen went into their system and the only borg ship to assimilate it (because the other ships were screwed up) was the sphere that was blown up.
Also, starfleet has the transphasic torpedoes and can thus make better ones off the same technology. Meanwhile the borg are picking up the pieces and trying to reestablish order from chaos. Add in the resistance that was put into existence at the end of Dark Frontier and the Borg aren't going to be jumping back to their previous power anytime soon.

If some fool thinks transphasic torpedoes developed in the true timeline will damage the borg alot, theyre badly mistaken.

The sole reason future janeways transphasic torpedoes were effective against the borg, is because

THEY WERE FAR FROM THE FUTURE.

*boils*

:P
Yep. But since the transphasic torpedoes don't even NEED to be developed, (as Janeway brought them to the past) something better is bound to be created.
But again, the collective has had many issues: From species 8472 to the resistance to Future Janeway giving them all a pathogen that caused Unimatrix 01 to explode.

Besides, who says those ships fighting the borg ships won?

[Pilov]

I think 30 years after Nemesis, Starfleet has shown they are capable of handling the borg threat at a greater capacity than when voyager was taking place. I don't see the issue with it tbh.

/agree

I mean come on. There is just no way that Starfleet took all the knowledge they had of the Borg and sat on it. Instead of developing new weapons to use against them.......

It is perfectly reasonable that the federation should be able to go toe to toe with the Borg

[Ecoi]

I didn't read all the posts, but most at the beginning. I get what the OP is saying. Of course we don't know exactly how the game is, that goes without saying and should be accepted readily. But what is not accepted readily is why there is concern. If you wait until the game to see what's wrong, then it's too late.

Why not point out the concern and hopefully Cyrpic will see it and make sure they don't make the borg a "Grind fest" as someone said earlier. There's nothing wrong with pointing it out earlier. I didn't see the borg in the trailer as weak, but I sure do want to be sure that they aren't weak in STO.

I remember in Star trek: Birth of the Federation coming across the borg in that game. I had a fleet of 20 sovereign classes and they all died to a cube!!! :mad: So I tried to play the Romulans or Klingons from then on (with cloak you had an extra turn to fight). Those cubes were so annoying as the federation!! :mad:, but with good reason. :D.

I'm guessing the people concerned about the borg being too weak obvious are big star trek fans. If you're not a star trek fan, understand this... Star trek (and science fiction) fans DON'T want their entertainment destroyed. It HAS to make sense and it HAS to fall into play. Contradictions doesn't add up with this.

Has anyone played SWG? The game was messed up and is totally inaccurate to star wars. You have jedi running around everywhere when most are supposed to be dead, battles are unrealistic, etc. The star wars fans are so totally mad that they messed it up.

Just hope that everyone understands that. Yay Star Trek. Hope you make it too Crypic. Keep up the good work :D.

[Tica]

Borg are shown to be quite a bit weaker than they were in Voyager series and quite a few people are not cool with this. I mean if the trailer video just wanted to show that they are in the game why show federation ships being almost as strong as borg. In any case I just had an idea that maybe we need to reserve them for sort of higher level mobs and help cryptic to come up with some other mobs/monsters/enemies to go after at first and then once your fleet is pretty strong then you can go after THE BORG.

Lets show some respect to the most evil race in ST universe.



Do you know what a transphasic torpedo is?

[ibby1kanobi]

for the record, wolf was an exception because picard was commanding the borg attack and knew all the weaknesses of the federation fleet. and by the sound of your last statement, it sounds like you too are forgetting that the 30 years is not one sided. yes, starfleet may have advanced alot during that 30 years, but the borg have too.

Agreed, but the Borg don't know in what fields, and with what technology Starfleet is advancing.

If you take your argument about Picard leading that attack into account, then the Borg aren't that strong, and that means they are just another race, that is slightly superior. This would mean that they are just as prone to technological advancement as say, the Romulans. The Federation gets Quantum torpedoes, the Romulans and Klingons research it too, but they can't find a shield/armor that makes it immune to Q torps. So then, without Picard, the borg should be just as vulnerable to that type of advancement as well.

If you argue that the Borg adapt to new technologies quickly, then this means they are an overpowered race.

My original argument was that Voyager really screwed up the Borg essence towards the end of it's run, and now it's a confusing subject. I still don't think the Borg were intended to play such a big storyarc roles in the series/movies that they did in later ST years.

[LordDave]

The main strength we have against the Borg is our distance. Even the collective knows that assimilating one planet half way across the galaxy isn't very efficient. If it's easy, they'll do it. But why expend more resources then you think you need? Granted, 5 cubes could easily take down Earth's Defenses but it wouldn't solve the problem of having the rest of the quadrant all gang up on that one little borg outpost that used to be Earth.

The other main strength is that we were introduced to it before they got close. Most species know of the Borg, but their first encounter is usually the last one. The Federation got to see the Borg up close thanks to Q, got to fight them first hand, and got to see inside their heads with Picard. All while still being too far for the Borg to send more then one ship. And now that we know how they work, fighting them becomes more then "throw what we have at them". It becomes "Design something that exploits their weakness".
The Defiant was made for borg battles. It's small and maneuverable, which makes it harder for a borg cube to hit. AND it's got mini-quantum torpedoes, which do a fair bit of damage.

So we had the time to study and find solutions to the Borg problem.

[T-child]

in my opinion the borg should still in somewhat way be powerfull.

since they are constantly aiming for that "perfection" they would most likely have assimilated something in the delta quadrande to still be equaly as powerfull as starfleet.

[lumin]

It doesn't make much sense that there are like 4 Borg cubes against 5 -6 federation ships and consider that a fair fight. I mean, it should take a dozen or so federation ships to take down one cube.

[LordDave]

It doesn't make much sense that there are like 4 Borg cubes against 5 -6 federation ships and consider that a fair fight. I mean, it should take a dozen or so federation ships to take down one cube.

Well your assuming it was a fair fight and not a "OMFG! Where did these cubes come from?!"

[lumin]

Well your assuming it was a fair fight and not a "OMFG! Where did these cubes come from?!"

LOL !

- I got that from the fact as soon as the scene starts, a sphere blows up from one shot. Sure, I assumed it was a fair fight because Cryptic presented it that way. I think if they wanted to send the message that the Borg are really tough, they would have shown us a scene with one cube and 20 federation ships.

[Boarder]

As awesome as the movie First Contact was, it set the course for ruining the Borg. Originally they were nightmarish in their lack of individualism, it was like fighting one giant faceless mass instead of a typical "nation in space" like we'd all seen before.

Voyager continued with the Borg Queen idea that individualized the Borg, and along that line they got easier and easier to defeat until they were basically a joke.

So as far as Star Trek cannon is concerned, the Borg being a joke is pretty much standard now.

[croxis]

The reason why the queen was added because they found that having a villian as an individual related better with the focus groups than the faceless mass that we saw in the TNG series.

[Mavor]

Ok listen, EVEN IF the feds and borg have equal tech/power... you are forgetting the SIZE of a borg cube.

The actual tonnage of a borg cube is EASILY equal to.. at least 15-20 large sized fed ships. So taking that into account... a borg cube should wipe the floor with less then its tonnage of ships. So, even if the feds have been able to reach the same tech as the borg... those massive cubes should still be able to take on 10 fed ships easy, just because of sheer size and mass.

And the borg are perfectionists... so if they thought having 1000 little cubes instead of one big one was better, they would have done it. Thus we have to conclude that their cubes are so big because it is the most efficient way of using tonnage.

[Kahul_Bane]

If you saw the web cast, an attack like that is not just a mob, it is to be a random event, not an every day accurance.:eek:

[Trevic]

I tend to agree, I know the trailer is just showing off gameplay. The Borg shouldn't be impossible to beat, but it should take a rather large fleet to take out even 1 cube.

[Cryptic_Fan_101]

Ok listen, EVEN IF the feds and borg have equal tech/power... you are forgetting the SIZE of a borg cube.

The actual tonnage of a borg cube is EASILY equal to.. at least 15-20 large sized fed ships. So taking that into account... a borg cube should wipe the floor with less then its tonnage of ships. So, even if the feds have been able to reach the same tech as the borg... those massive cubes should still be able to take on 10 fed ships easy, just because of sheer size and mass.

And the borg are perfectionists... so if they thought having 1000 little cubes instead of one big one was better, they would have done it. Thus we have to conclude that their cubes are so big because it is the most efficient way of using tonnage.

By that logic, the morbidly obese man on Jerry Springer who had to be lifted out of his house via a crane should be able to kick Chuck Norris' arse.

You also seem to be forgetting that if the Borg just wanted to be efficient at blowing stuff up that wouldn't leave them a whole heck of a lot to assimilate.

P.S.: No Cubes were destroyed (or even noticeably damaged) in the trailer, just one Sphere.

[Deltab]

Am I missing something, or was it said a ton of times in the shows, movies, etc. that the Borg can't adapt to everything. For example, a drone cant adapt to survive a starship running into it at full impulse. The borg couldn't adapt to species 8472. The borg can't adapt to a Bat'leth, perhaps they can't adapt to everything? After all if they could, wouldn't they have taken over the galaxy by now?

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Transphasic_torpedo

One could use logic and realize a weapon designed so that it couldn't be adapted to, would be a weapon of choice against the borg. Lets be honest with ourselves, the borg really arn't perfect.

That said, it would be nice to have a huge cube show up and start "owning" space around it, and needing not 20, but even more ships to destory it. Imagine hearing there is a borg attack nearby and thinking, "oh snap." That would be nice. Is it cannon? I don't think so, but it would sure add to the fun factor

[ldgnlbeowolf]

If you watched the episodes and read the books , you will be able to see that yes they have come up with anti-borg weapons and armor.

Everything from speical armor that incases the ship making it stronger and more resliant to borg weapons and Bio-Torpedoes that when it hits, doesnt allow borg ships to regenrate and acts like a virus to them and passes through thier shields.

I believe i seen these weapons used on Voyager with they went up against those aliens that lived in fluid space and they got technolgy from the Aliens and used it againts the Borg.

And the armor was also from Voyager last couple of episodes when janeway goes back to the past in a delta flyer and she activates the armor and borg are taking a long time to penetrate it when she is trying to distract them.

[LordDave]

From what I understand, borg invasions will start to happen.
Story wise, it sounds about right: The Borg see Humans as the one species (aside from 8472) that has been so resistant to assimilation. So after recovering from the ass kicking Janeway gave them, they start to make a base of operations near the newly explored space. Then they start moving in.

[LordDave]

I believe i seen these weapons used on Voyager with they went up against those aliens that lived in fluid space and they got technolgy from the Aliens and used it againts the Borg.



Other way around. They got tech from the borg and used it against the aliens. Species 8472.

[Boarder]

The reason why the queen was added because they found that having a villian as an individual related better with the focus groups than the faceless mass that we saw in the TNG series.

"...just because we can do a thing, it does not necessarily mean we must do that thing. "

I despise what the Borg became.

[ldgnlbeowolf]

im sorry i was mistaken , but janeway did come out during the episodes and was hurting the borg with modified weapons just dont remmber how she came about aquiring them,

[Sobekeus]

Alright, it seems to me that some people have forgotten what a Borg Cube is, its primary purpose is not combat, it just happens to be so much better at it on a relative scale that it makes a great combat ship from the perspective of the Federation.

Borg Cubes are assimilation factories and troop transports. They are colony ships.

[LordDave]

Alright, it seems to me that some people have forgotten what a Borg Cube is, its primary purpose is not combat, it just happens to be so much better at it on a relative scale that it makes a great combat ship from the perspective of the Federation.

Borg Cubes are assimilation factories and troop transports. They are colony ships.

Very true. I mean, the borg aren't here to kill you, they're here to assimilate you.

[keitholi]

Are you kidding?! How do you know those werent all lvl 100 players, with fully modded out ships? Your making a huge stink out of some CGI trailer that is not even game play footage. You also assume that its a bunch of cadets flying around blasting a bunch of cubes with nothing more than some phaser banks. Go DIAF and save us from listening to you whine for the next 3 years of development.

[ryanthegr8]

Alright, it seems to me that some people have forgotten what a Borg Cube is, its primary purpose is not combat, it just happens to be so much better at it on a relative scale that it makes a great combat ship from the perspective of the Federation.

Borg Cubes are assimilation factories and troop transports. They are colony ships.


The assimilation cubes yes, but I swear they had at least one Tactical cube in ther trailer. Wihile they are about half the size of the assimilation cube-they are built for battle.

[AaronH]

I really do hope the borg remain a menace, and I think the trailer didn't give me anything to question that.

I really like the idea of a borg incursion that requires large groups of players to get together to fight off (similar to monsters in CoH).

It looks like the borg will also be popping up in missions, which I am down with, because man, I really want to beam over to a borg cube.

[renef78]

By that logic, the morbidly obese man on Jerry Springer who had to be lifted out of his house via a crane should be able to kick Chuck Norris' arse.

No. But the 10-foot-guy who's essentially a slab of muscle should be able to kick Chuck Norris' ass, which is a much better analogy. Borg cubes aren't just big, unmoving lumps sitting out in space. They're damn fast (faster than the Enterprise), maneuverable, and powerful.

You also seem to be forgetting that if the Borg just wanted to be efficient at blowing stuff up that wouldn't leave them a whole heck of a lot to assimilate.

They have to disable resistance before they can begin assimilation. Blowing away 40 Starfleet ships at Wolf 359 certainly wouldn't have prevented them from assimilating the Federation.

[ryanthegr8]

I like how they do the Alien invasions in COH-an alert goes up and players are sent out the location of the attack in order to get as many there to battle as possible. That would work well in a game like this.

[Sobekeus]

No. But the 10-foot-guy who's essentially a slab of muscle should be able to kick Chuck Norris' ass, which is a much better analogy. Borg cubes aren't just big, unmoving lumps sitting out in space. They're damn fast (faster than the Enterprise), maneuverable, and powerful.

Generally bigger is not better in a fight and most people that have actually been in fights know it. Sure the big guy has some advantages, but the smaller guy should be able to evade them and go for the disadvantages far easier than the big guy can.

Which is why the Borg's Tactical Cubes are not as large as the normal Cubes, and why the Defiant is not the size of a Starbase.

[Iwulff]

You see a Borg Cube, you do what we do. Run. Run your ass off ! :eek::eek::eek:

The Borg are the evil guys, who cause massive terror, destruction and assimilation. Why would you even want to be able to just kick their ass with ease? It should be an accomplishment, fought hard for.

[renef78]

Generally bigger is not better in a fight and most people that have actually been in fights know it. Sure the big guy has some advantages, but the smaller guy should be able to evade them and go for the disadvantages far easier than the big guy can.

So a lightweight boxer can take down a heavyweight? Boxers with longer arms don't have an advantage over those with shorter arms? Everything else being equal, bet on the big guy.

Which is why the Borg's Tactical Cubes are not as large as the normal Cubes, and why the Defiant is not the size of a Starbase.

And yet the Valiant got trashed by a Dominion warship five times its size.And Starfleet, the Klingons, and every other race build bigger and bigger ships. The Defiant was built that size to fulfill a certain tactical role. Not because little warships are best.

[Reinkaos]

So a lightweight boxer can take down a heavyweight? Boxers with longer arms don't have an advantage over those with shorter arms? Everything else being equal, bet on the big guy.

And yet the Valiant got trashed by a Dominion warship five times its size.And Starfleet, the Klingons, and every other race build bigger and bigger ships. The Defiant was built that size to fulfill a certain tactical role. Not because little warships are best.

Don't bet against Bruce Lee. He was a small guy, but he'd whoop anyone :p

[Zizi]

While I understand and agree with all the point raised regarding the decline of scary-factor of the Borg and relative reasonableness of Federation technology catching-up on the Borg...

I can't help but feel it makes for a crummy game experience, and kind of hope we'll see a return to the likes of Wolf 359, whether it's accurate to the later shows or not.

Arguably, we could see the problem of Borg dilution and Janeways interference with the transphasic torps and the like being fixed by, ironically, another facet of recent "questionable" show material-- while the whole 'temporal Prime Directive' and time-cops and other ridiculousness drove me absolutely CRAZY once it started popping up all over the shows everywhere, it WOULD make an efective way of building the Borg threat factor up again by providing a vehicle and motive for rescinding some of the technology-leaps due to time travel.

Imperfect fix, but it's available.

And then again, there's always the chance the Borg managed to find and assimilate something REALLY scary in the last 30 years....

[Zizi]

And yet the Valiant got trashed by a Dominion warship five times its size.And Starfleet, the Klingons, and every other race build bigger and bigger ships. The Defiant was built that size to fulfill a certain tactical role. Not because little warships are best.

True. Worth noting that the Akira was designed to complement the Defiant-class with a larger ship that would cover tactical situations that the smaller, faster Defiants weren't suited for.

[Fluxion]

and in those same 30 years the bord would develop COUNTER anti-borg techonology. the 30 year argument doesnt fly, because both sides had 30 years, not just the borg.

I don't think that necessarily follows. Invention requires creativity, ingenuity, and free-thought. Those are all things the Borg are lacking big time. Their advancement depends on assimilation of other technologies. If they didn't absorb any radical new technologies in that time, they would have essentially remained stagnant.

[zaxxon23]

Anyone who's read the most recent books will know that the Borg are "currently" as big a threat as ever. The federation currently has no means to fight them because the endgame virus has been analyzed by the borg.

Before anyone goes off on the books, I'm well aware that in the context of this game they are not considered absolute canon, not to mention this setting is still a good 20-25 years after the most recent book.

[Deltab]

May I try a new point of view?

Its a game. Make it fun!!! Don't use cannon and non-cannon arguements cause blowing up a cube in 1 shot is cannon, as is 1 Cube man handling a joint Federation/Klingon armada.

As Jack said there will be borg invasions. Thus they arn't usual mobs, so one cube may well take a few Fleets to destory. It would make the most sense gameplay wise.

[PAw]

Borg are not to weak but they cannot be made into a unstoppable force otherwise people will just avoid anything related to borg leaving a entire section of content devoid of players.

[MajorD]

Personally speaking, I'd like to see a situation where it takes upwards of 30 ships to successfully engage a single Borg cube. The appearance of just one Borg cube should be enough to get every single player within spitting distance into a panic. That's my wish, anyway.
If that's the maximum a single room can handle, then I would be okay with it, but if they can go higher, the higher the better. There were about 30 ships at Wolf 359 and the dozen or so ships we saw on screen in First Contact didn't do much better. In both situations, it was Picard who saved the day by exposing a work around solution, thanks to his past assimilation. If there is a Borg battle mission, a necessary prelude mission should be requirement to get assimilated in another mission.
Well the Borg are very advanced. What I don't understand is how they don't control everything already.
Short answer, they don't want to. The Borg look for certain qualities, biological and technological, to assimilate. If they don't see one or the other, they won't assimilate the species, if they see only one very specific quality, surrounded by a bunch of generic qualities, they won't assimilate either, they'll farm the species, just as they do with the Federation for its "resistance factor" and with Echeb's species.
You realize that the entire dev team is studying canon and know precisely how powerful the Borg is, right?
No one knows precisely how strong anyone or anything is in Star Trek, plus the dev team is reading lots of non-canon. But it is possible to get some idea of the strength of things in Star Trek relative to each other within the franchise. But it's really tough and in the end, takes a lot of guess work, even if you're fanatic about finding and collating the information.
In VOY they had to make the Borg somewhat clumsy and bumbling. I mean there was only one ship. It's not like the Borg could be portrayed as they were in TNG because frankly if they had the Borg would have moped the floor with ole'Katty and her little band of buddies.

They would have grown stronger and probably a little meaner from the the experience and in 30 will probably have come a long way...

BUT so will the Federation, Starfleet and the other powers in the Alpha Quadrant. They will have had further contact with the Borg. They will have adapted also. We adapt too! So no the technological evolution won't have been one sided but since the future hasn't been assimilated we evidently been able to keep pace.

They didn't need to handicap the Borg, there was already a serviceable explanation, it was said early on that the Borg ignore individuals. Expand on that just a little and have it mean they ignore individuals and individual ships (Voyager actually showed that), as long as it's a race that hasn't done something to draw attention, and you have a reason why Voyager or any other ship could just waltz up to Borg cube.

The 30 years argument misses one thing, both sides will have advanced 30 years, true, but the Borg will still be however many centuries more advancement than the Federation they already were. Going by ship volume, on an equal basis, the Borg are many times more powerful, as seen when Voyager tried fighting a Borg scout ship. Voyager did destroy it, but only by tricking it to drop its shields momentarily, and they beamed a torpedo on board, although they meant to disable the Borg ship, not destroy it. Even so, they barely got away with the trick, because the scout's weapons are so powerful. The Borg wouldn't fall for that a second time, either. The destruction of the sphere in First Contact, I toss up to being a fluke, considering the damage that form of time travel caused. Or the quantum torpedoes are just that more effective against Borg, but they will adapt in short order and the cube was taking plenty of quantum torpedoes with little apparent effect.

From what I understand, borg invasions will start to happen.
Story wise, it sounds about right: The Borg see Humans as the one species (aside from 8472) that has been so resistant to assimilation. So after recovering from the ass kicking Janeway gave them, they start to make a base of operations near the newly explored space. Then they start moving in.
The problem with that is, there is nothing the Federation can reasonably do to stop it, and if they become strong enough to really fight the Borg, then they make themselves targets for the Borg by being advanced enough to fight the Borg on equal terms. Instead of sending one cube just to see what's up, the Borg might send two, straight to Earth orbit, and then the Federation would be be done.

[Capt._D]

I don’t think anyone can say that Cryptic is making the borg weak. It was a 1 minute 42 second trailer that really didn’t do a lot except for show incredible starships and lack luster character graphics (I know we are only in the alpha stage, and I know will see improvement on that)

The point being this thread has it heart in the right place by asking cryptic to make sure that the Borg are as terrifying and powerful in this game as they weren’t in so many others.

Think about it after “Q who” and realizing how powerful they were then to see “The Best of Both Worlds” when Picard is standing in front of the viewer with this HUGE Borg cube sitting there at high warp, the dramatic music playing. He turns around and in a serious as hell line says “Mr. Worf inform Starfleet Command… we’ve engaged the Borg” you could tell that he was afraid which made me afraid and made shivers go down my spine… that’s what I want the borg to represent in this game. If a borg cube drops out of transwarp, I want to s*** my pants and know that there is NO way I’m going to survive this by myself, that I’m going to need to hide or call in some reinforcement ASAP.

[Zizi]

Borg are not to weak but they cannot be made into a unstoppable force otherwise people will just avoid anything related to borg leaving a entire section of content devoid of players.

Actually, this is demonstrably not true, as there are whole segents of any game's population that will go after the supposedly-impossible. And as they do so, they frequently drag along players that would not normally attempt such content. It's pretty well-documented, and I've experienced it firsthand over many games myself.

It *is* true that players tend to follow the path of least resistance, but you have to account for extenuating circumstance as well, and this is one of those times.

Besides, I'm betting the salvage from a downed cube would yeild some REALLY good tech for the people that go after them.

[Rajel]

We also need to consider that the ending of Voyager brought to the Federation advanced technology designed specifically to meet the Borg threat. Transphasic torpedos, ablative armor as well as whatever other modifications and tactical information the "future" Janeway delivered. Not to mention the expertise held by Seven of Nine, and the neurolitic pathogen. So the Federation has, since the end of the Voyager series, gained a great deal of knowledge regarding the Borg.

With the collapse of the transwarp hub, the Federation has also gained quite a bit of time to study and develop these technologies.

[Fluxion]

Anyone who's read the most recent books will know that the Borg are "currently" as big a threat as ever. The federation currently has no means to fight them because the endgame virus has been analyzed by the borg.

Before anyone goes off on the books, I'm well aware that in the context of this game they are not considered absolute canon, not to mention this setting is still a good 20-25 years after the most recent book.

You realize, of course, that you just made an argument, and then dismissed your argument in the same post. :)

[KirksOtherSon]

Respectfully, the trailer was designed as a promotional piece. It was designed to show action, and to get people all hyped up about Star Trek Online in one minute or less. While it's fun to mull over what we saw, I don't think one can draw broad and/or permanent conclusions from anything we saw there.

Also, MMORPGs change as they go, by definition. Having had experience with Cryptic games before, I would bet many quatloos that, should a significant number of players complain the Borg are too "weak" at launch, they will be toughened up. Cryptic is not Sony, they actually listen wherever possible.

Truth be told, if the Borg are, in fact, too weak it will be caught in the beta-test, and corrected by launch. As above, Cryptic's good that way.

Speculating off the trailer is a fun game, but it's _only_ a fun game at this point. The final shape of things is largely unknown.

Peace,

KOS

[Pyrometheus]

Borg are shown to be quite a bit weaker than they were in Voyager series and quite a few people are not cool with this. I mean if the trailer video just wanted to show that they are in the game why show federation ships being almost as strong as borg. In any case I just had an idea that maybe we need to reserve them for sort of higher level mobs and help cryptic to come up with some other mobs/monsters/enemies to go after at first and then once your fleet is pretty strong then you can go after THE BORG.

Lets show some respect to the most evil race in ST universe.

It is hardly logical to make a statement about how strong or weak a faction appears based on a few seconds of in game video capture from a game that isn't even close to opening beta.

Lets show some respect to the intellect and skills of the dev team.

[Everitt_Cage]

Generally bigger is not better in a fight and most people that have actually been in fights know it.

if you had said bigger is not ALWAYS better in a fight, you might have been believable. but to actualy say that MOST of the time(thats what generaly means) that is the case only shows you have no idea what your talking about. the ONLY way a small guy beats a big guy in a fight is if he has some exceptional advantage(be it specific training, a weapon, some lucky circumstance, etc). those things are not "generaly", they are exceptional circumstances. but if you take two guys with the exact same level of fighting skills, except one is proportianaly bigger than the other, the bigger will win. that doesnt mean the smaller guy CANT win, providing he has some advantage, but it is certainly not GENERALY.

[mendal]

IT IS TIME TO LET THIS THREAD GO

I am not sorry for making this thread. I am sorry for making people think that I believed the trailer was actual game cause abviously it is NOT. So let this thread just sink into archives and don't post here anymore. Cryptic got the point by now.

The purpose of this thread was to show that we want to be somewhat scared by the appearance of a Borg cube NO MATTER what tech was created or assimilated during those 30 years.

I would ask moderators to lock this thread cause in my opinion everything neded to be saied on the issue was already said unless you want to her more from people here.

P.S. if you haven't resolved your issues about who is stronger Chuck Norris (spelling) or Bruce Lee or 300 pound guy from some stupid show then start a nyw thred in an appropriate place.

[Shatterhand]

Personally, I'm getting a little Borg-ed out.

Every major threat the Federation faces comes from the Borg these days. It's like the book and comic book writers have given up on coming up with an enemy more frightening than the Borg. Mind you, iIn the most recent book, Greater Than the Sum, they do up the Borg threat to something worse than assimilation...but I won't say more, for fear of spoiling it for you. If Jack is indeed following the novels and decides to implement the events of this most recent book, I will risk saying that the Borg will be a much more significant threat than in past apperances.

While this gives me hope, I'd still like to see something other than the Borg be the major thorn in the side of the Star Trek universe.

[Gamerfett]

Beam on a borg cube with a 12 gauge and start taking them out one by one... LEAD weapons FTW!

[bitgolem]

Don't bet against Bruce Lee. He was a small guy, but he'd whoop anyone :p

True, I think he was 5'7". 135 lbs, but he was solid muscle and noone who ever saw him fight live or sparred with him doubted he was the greatest hand to hand fighter they'd ever seen.

[bitgolem]

From what I understand, borg invasions will start to happen.
Story wise, it sounds about right: The Borg see Humans as the one species (aside from 8472) that has been so resistant to assimilation. So after recovering from the ass kicking Janeway gave them, they start to make a base of operations near the newly explored space. Then they start moving in.

Yes, I imagine that the more you resist the borg, the bigger hardon they get to assimilate you until it eventually becomes their primary objective.

[bitgolem]

The one thing I don't understand is that when Picard learned that he Borg were susceptible to projectile weapons, why didn't he replicate SAWs for everyone and go after the Queen?

[Jenkl]

I'm kinda annoyed at them making the Borg space-rats for us to farm...

I want to say just "give us a new Borg race" but The Borg aren't replaceable, you can interchange other "evil" races and it would still work but the Borg are unique in that they aren't really evil, they are just the Borg. It's what they do. Unrelenting...

[Tica]

It doesn't make much sense that there are like 4 Borg cubes against 5 -6 federation ships and consider that a fair fight. I mean, it should take a dozen or so federation ships to take down one cube.


[BHELLO!!!!!!!!
do you people know what is a Transphasic torpedo, and even if borg adapted to it, i doubt they adapted, Jeneway has blown the entire unicomplex.
She brought chaos into order, now after that borg is an sugnificant treath.[/B]

[jsutich]

Closed per OP request.