MMO Deadly Sins

[Osis]

These are what I see as the 7 deadly sins:

1 - Trying to be all things to all people

2 - Ignoring gameplay in favor of snazzy graphics

3 - Changing the game significantly when people have a significant investment (time, effort, etc.)

4 - Forcing gameplay instead of just setting the field and letting people play how they will

5 - Listening to much to the squeaky wheel(s) and creating FOTM

6 - Take away consequences. (ie waaa, we don't want a death penalty)

7 - Company insiders who actually play the game in a competitive (not testing or work related) manner.



What just kills a game for you?

[NeoWolf]

for me I would say (and not in any particular order)

1. forcing PVP on me.. I am a PVE'er by choice, I have almost no interest in PVP, so when a game forces it on me I am instantly turned off to the game.

2. Poor customer support service.. nothing I hate worse than having an issue in game and having to wait 3 days for a response and then when ti comes it is a standardised, non personal cut and paste type reply..

3. Best items in a Game being accessible only via PVP and/or Raids.. as someone who solo's out of preference although I do enjoy a team now and then I dont want the better stuff of the game to only be obtainable through a group. IMO a game should cater to both solo and group styles of play as such instances and bosses should scale in difficulty dependant upon whether you are solo or teamed.

4. Upkeep Mechanics.. I hate in game mechanics that require me to pay XX amount of currency every week/month etc.. to keep something (housing for example) in game. Personally, I'd much rather just pay a nominal one off fee to have housing attached my account instead of being forced to grind to pay upkeep, and effectively be forced to stay subscribed to keep it.. dont like a company having that much control over when and if I play.

5. General lack of maturity in some MMO's, admitedly kids will be kids but the constant immature banter, annoying behaviour and leet speaking out the kazoo non stop.. at times it just makes you want to scream. I would at times give lots to find an MMO that besides the usual PVP, PVP - RP, PVe, PVE - RP type servers also had servers provided with a minimum age restriction to play on, so that adults can play in peace if they want to.

6. Although Cryptic via COH have proven they are not guilty of this, in general I think most MMO's are far too restrictive in the amount of customisation we are allowed to make in our in game avatars appearance. We every toon starts to look the same you begin to lose that connection with your character and just become one of the rank and file. Customisation for Individuality is key imo.

7. Poor Server Quality, Ive played lots of MMO's and some lag and some dont and some lag BADLY, admitedly these issues arent all Server side but whatever the case at the end of the day it comes back to this in my mind. Even with an ageing PC I can gp on any WoW server and not have any but the most minimal lag ever, no matter how many people are on screen, no matter how many particle effects are occuring.. So why can other games not attain the same level of consisten performance? Love WoW of hate it for whatever reason (and many do on both sides of the equation) the face remains thier servers are outstanding when it comes to be lag-less and that is a quality I think other MMO's should aspire too.

[wrrlykam]

Devs who listen to whining 10 year olds over their core players.

[LocutusOfBorg]

1: Lag, I resent paying for something that doesn't work properly. Lag not only ruins the experience but at times can lead to your dealth. Of course Logical dictates that this happens at the furthest point from the nearest respawn/heaing point.

2: Those MMOs where you have to PvP for days to get the top notch Armor/Weapons. Again most MMOs are PvP but they encourage PvE. I enjoy both PvP and PvE, but I would like the oportunity to gain the top level stuff by Leveling to the top level and earning them. That takes long enough.

3: Poor Support, I have played MMOs where I have needed assistance through no fault of my own. At times the assistance has been as much use as throwing a stone at a borg cube. I have had a GM from a MMO say well if you are not happy why not quit?

4: Muppets who use the incorrect chat channels. This is annoying as you have to scroll up and down to see if someone is selling something or you are looking for a group to join etc. This is mostly sugared up kids.

5: MMOs need a force roll function. I am sick of muppets walking up to a chest when you are in a group and helping themselves

My 2 bars of Latinums worth :D

[RandomRedshirt]

Chuck Norris Jokes, Barrens Chat, Gold Spammers, Guild Spammers, Disrespect to RPers on RP servers.....The list goes on and on.

[Linton]

7 - Company insiders who actually play the game in a competitive (not testing or work related) manner.


Warrior/Druid 2v2, anyone?

[Everitt_Cage]

SWG.

3 letters, yet such significance.

[Pierce28]

SWG.

3 letters, yet such significance.

I have another 3 letter one - BFG

Planetside was such a great game until SoE decided to add "Battle Frame Robotics", aka Big Freakin Robots. Luckily, Cryptic would have to be on whatever SOE was on if they were to add something like that to STO.

[Osis]

Unfortunately I never played SWG, but I have read a lot about it and talked to a HUGE number of people who have. It seems like a case study in how to screw up a really promising game.

Lots of people look at the support issues as a primary concern it looks like.... woulld you continue to play a mediocre game that had awesome support?

[bigsmiff]

for me I would say (and not in any particular order)

1. forcing PVP on me.. I am a PVE'er by choice, I have almost no interest in PVP, so when a game forces it on me I am instantly turned off to the game.

2. Poor customer support service.. nothing I hate worse than having an issue in game and having to wait 3 days for a response and then when ti comes it is a standardised, non personal cut and paste type reply..

3. Best items in a Game being accessible only via PVP and/or Raids.. as someone who solo's out of preference although I do enjoy a team now and then I dont want the better stuff of the game to only be obtainable through a group. IMO a game should cater to both solo and group styles of play as such instances and bosses should scale in difficulty dependant upon whether you are solo or teamed.

4. Upkeep Mechanics.. I hate in game mechanics that require me to pay XX amount of currency every week/month etc.. to keep something (housing for example) in game. Personally, I'd much rather just pay a nominal one off fee to have housing attached my account instead of being forced to grind to pay upkeep, and effectively be forced to stay subscribed to keep it.. dont like a company having that much control over when and if I play.

5. General lack of maturity in some MMO's, admitedly kids will be kids but the constant immature banter, annoying behaviour and leet speaking out the kazoo non stop.. at times it just makes you want to scream. I would at times give lots to find an MMO that besides the usual PVP, PVP - RP, PVe, PVE - RP type servers also had servers provided with a minimum age restriction to play on, so that adults can play in peace if they want to.

6. Although Cryptic via COH have proven they are not guilty of this, in general I think most MMO's are far too restrictive in the amount of customisation we are allowed to make in our in game avatars appearance. We every toon starts to look the same you begin to lose that connection with your character and just become one of the rank and file. Customisation for Individuality is key imo.

7. Poor Server Quality, Ive played lots of MMO's and some lag and some dont and some lag BADLY, admitedly these issues arent all Server side but whatever the case at the end of the day it comes back to this in my mind. Even with an ageing PC I can gp on any WoW server and not have any but the most minimal lag ever, no matter how many people are on screen, no matter how many particle effects are occuring.. So why can other games not attain the same level of consisten performance? Love WoW of hate it for whatever reason (and many do on both sides of the equation) the face remains thier servers are outstanding when it comes to be lag-less and that is a quality I think other MMO's should aspire too.



I have to say that you hit the nail on the head for me.

[Jean Leloup]

for me I would say (and not in any particular order)

1. forcing PVP on me.. I am a PVE'er by choice, I have almost no interest in PVP, so when a game forces it on me I am instantly turned off to the game.

2. Poor customer support service.. nothing I hate worse than having an issue in game and having to wait 3 days for a response and then when ti comes it is a standardised, non personal cut and paste type reply..

3. Best items in a Game being accessible only via PVP and/or Raids.. as someone who solo's out of preference although I do enjoy a team now and then I dont want the better stuff of the game to only be obtainable through a group. IMO a game should cater to both solo and group styles of play as such instances and bosses should scale in difficulty dependant upon whether you are solo or teamed.

4. Upkeep Mechanics.. I hate in game mechanics that require me to pay XX amount of currency every week/month etc.. to keep something (housing for example) in game. Personally, I'd much rather just pay a nominal one off fee to have housing attached my account instead of being forced to grind to pay upkeep, and effectively be forced to stay subscribed to keep it.. dont like a company having that much control over when and if I play.

5. General lack of maturity in some MMO's, admitedly kids will be kids but the constant immature banter, annoying behaviour and leet speaking out the kazoo non stop.. at times it just makes you want to scream. I would at times give lots to find an MMO that besides the usual PVP, PVP - RP, PVe, PVE - RP type servers also had servers provided with a minimum age restriction to play on, so that adults can play in peace if they want to.

6. Although Cryptic via COH have proven they are not guilty of this, in general I think most MMO's are far too restrictive in the amount of customisation we are allowed to make in our in game avatars appearance. We every toon starts to look the same you begin to lose that connection with your character and just become one of the rank and file. Customisation for Individuality is key imo.

7. Poor Server Quality, Ive played lots of MMO's and some lag and some dont and some lag BADLY, admitedly these issues arent all Server side but whatever the case at the end of the day it comes back to this in my mind. Even with an ageing PC I can gp on any WoW server and not have any but the most minimal lag ever, no matter how many people are on screen, no matter how many particle effects are occuring.. So why can other games not attain the same level of consisten performance? Love WoW of hate it for whatever reason (and many do on both sides of the equation) the face remains thier servers are outstanding when it comes to be lag-less and that is a quality I think other MMO's should aspire too.

Well stated, I disagree with 1,4, and 5 but all with you on the others.
5) Lack of Maturity: I live a very... mature life, my job is pretty serious, I go to university, sit in class, and I get weaseled into sitting with sour people a lot so when I come onto the internet I expect the maturity level to drop and in a way... want it to. Years ago, I found it amusing to find kids bickering barrens chat, but it's the same deal on forums and dozens of other internet places. If you're looking for seriousness and maturity, you could always sit with your comrades and discuss trading tarriffs for the thirteen colonies over tea and crumpets.

4) Paying for Upkeep : That's how it is in real life?

1) Forced PvP : Life's tough? (Do some excercise?)

[El Capitan]

Devs who listen to whining 10 year olds over their core players.

Perfection

[NeoWolf]

Well stated, I disagree with 1,4, and 5 but all with you on the others.
5) Lack of Maturity: I live a very... mature life, my job is pretty serious, I go to university, sit in class, and I get weaseled into sitting with sour people a lot so when I come onto the internet I expect the maturity level to drop and in a way... want it to. Years ago, I found it amusing to find kids bickering barrens chat, but it's the same deal on forums and dozens of other internet places. If you're looking for seriousness and maturity, you could always sit with your comrades and discuss trading tarriffs for the thirteen colonies over tea and crumpets.

And all of that you can have via guild chat, your friends or tell.. to inflict it on EVERYONE whether they want it or not via global channels etc.. is unacceptable. Lets not forget you in game have the right to choose how you play provided it does not interfere with the rights of others to do the same.. when something is done globally it is inflicted on everyone and that is not acceptable.

4) Paying for Upkeep : That's how it is in real life?

But this is a game not real life.. People play games to get away from the minutea of real life as you pointed out to some degree above.. so to that end making my game like life.. not good... not fun...shouldnt be done.

1) Forced PvP : Life's tough? (Do some excercise?)

??? the above is a bit of a nonsense response, what does life is tough and do some exercise have to do with forcing PVP on everyone? LOL

PVP is a choice based on personal preference in your preferred style of play mostly due to the fact that current MMO crowds come from two camps by and large, those who started out gaming with FPS type games and cooperative shooters and wanted something a little bit more involved and those who came from offline RPGs and wanted a bit of cooperative play but without losing the story so almost everyone tends to fall on one side of the equation or the other and be either pro pvp or like me anti pvp.

because of the above PVP or not should be a choice we are allowed to make for ourselves not one that is forced uppon us like it or not..

[Osis]

I tend to agree with this.. with the following caveat;

There should be greater rewards for taking greater chances - one choice/chance being the choice to PvP. If you do a long involved quest and get a ceratin reward, should someone else also get that reward without having to do the quest? Of course not..... It's the same with PvP - it is a choice to play in a way, or in an area that is harder than PvE - shouldn't the rewards be greater?


because of the above PVP or not should be a choice we are allowed to make for ourselves not one that is forced uppon us like it or not..

[NeoWolf]

I tend to agree with this.. with the following caveat;

There should be greater rewards for taking greater chances - one choice/chance being the choice to PvP. If you do a long involved quest and get a ceratin reward, should someone else also get that reward without having to do the quest? Of course not..... It's the same with PvP - it is a choice to play in a way, or in an area that is harder than PvE - shouldn't the rewards be greater?

not sure id agree with your caveat myself, but each to thier own. I certainly dont think PVP requires more skill than PVE and therefore do not see it as being worthy of better rewards but thats just my opinion.

I tend to find too much Bad Blood, Elitism and Overly Competitveness amongst PVPers myself plus I have an RP background so for me it is all about the story I develop not the bonuses I have.

[DocSean]

1. Not listening to what the players want.

2. FOTM

3. Lousy character customization with everyone looking the same.

4. A bad, or missing, housing and decoration system. (I still LOVE SWG's housing and decoration system)

5. Everyone running around with the same l33t attire on.

6. Only being able to have a first name.

7. Bad customer support.

8. No custom personal character information upon examination. (Refer to SWG's good job with character bio's)

9. Bugs, lag and exploits.

10. Things that require deadly upkeep, say for faction alignment/rank etc. Houses and things I'm fine with.

[Osis]

Yeah - I think that this difference is a large part of the PvP vs PvE argument/discussion I've seen before and during every new MMO for the last several years.

I'm not sure if PvP takes more skill, though generally PvPers play both PvE and PvP, so I would be inclined to say taht it does, but that is not the point. It's been my experience (and common knowledge) that it is harder to play PvP. It takes more time to advance, it is riskier, and it IS the elite people who do it. Why should it not have greater rewards?

If you don't want to compete with other people, why play an MMO? I can understand that some people wnat to compete in other ways - best outfitted chars, best crafter, most knowledgeable of the game, are just a few of the other ways. Would you argue that someone who has worked his way up to master crafter shouldn't get any more rewards than someone who hasn't because of it? It's the same with PvP.


not sure id agree with your caveat myself, but each to thier own. I certainly dont think PVP requires more skill than PVE and therefore do not see it as being worthy of better rewards but thats just my opinion.

I tend to find too much Bad Blood, Elitism and Overly Competitveness amongst PVPers myself plus I have an RP background so for me it is all about the story I develop not the bonuses I have.

[Osis]

I thought of another one - this actually happened to me in CoH:

Changing character naming rules. I had a char that had a very good reputation, they changed it's name a year or more after creation.

[Glavius]

No death penalty - Planetside had this problem so it ended up with people just playing in a "throw my life away" fashion.

[JB]

3. Best items in a Game being accessible only via PVP and/or Raids.. as someone who solo's out of preference although I do enjoy a team now and then I dont want the better stuff of the game to only be obtainable through a group. IMO a game should cater to both solo and group styles of play as such instances and bosses should scale in difficulty dependant upon whether you are solo or teamed.

I completely agree with what you posted except for this item. You can't fault an MMO (you know, massively multiplayer...) for making the best stuff obtainable only through group content. I'm not saying solo players should be left out with nothing to do since I also prefer playing solo, but you can't fault an MMO for requiring some multiplayer any more than you can fault a first person shooter for making you shoot things.

You're free to dislike it, and I pretty much feel the same way as you do. I'm just saying that you shouldn't fault a multiplayer game for being a multiplayer game. One thing I'm hoping for with STO is less importance being put on character classes, that'll solve a lot of problems with grouping.

[AlienTwo]

I like PVP. It gives games a more robust feel, as long as it is a by choice type of combat.

[Pierce28]

No death penalty - Planetside had this problem so it ended up with people just playing in a "throw my life away" fashion.

Yeah, but look what happened when they added the 1 hour timer on BFRs. Everyone just sat there and ran if they were shot once since they didn't want to wait. Thus, Planetside changed from an amazing fast paced game to just sitting there, wondering why no one is moving.

[Psynergy]

1. A community that whines about something, then if it's changed, whines even more that they liked it the way it was and couldn't possibly imagine the devs changing it

2. Devs who give in to community pressure.

3. GMs who abuse their power

4. Quests with no originality / Quests where you have to go to point A and kill 10 of object B.

5. An MMO that becomes nothing more than PVP and radio station advertising (I'm looking at you MxO)

6. A weak soundtrack

all i can think of so far..

[NeoWolf]

Yeah - I think that this difference is a large part of the PvP vs PvE argument/discussion I've seen before and during every new MMO for the last several years.

I'm not sure if PvP takes more skill, though generally PvPers play both PvE and PvP, so I would be inclined to say taht it does, but that is not the point. It's been my experience (and common knowledge) that it is harder to play PvP. It takes more time to advance, it is riskier, and it IS the elite people who do it. Why should it not have greater rewards?

Its been my experience ove the last several years of various MMO play that most PVP'ers oly generally PVE out of necessity to level thier characters in order to be better able tto PVP.. not out of eny enjoyment of questing or he story etc. that may be seen as a generalisation by some and im sure it is to some degree, but im simply stating my opinion based on my own observations and dealings with other players and friends from MMOs (most of whom are PVP'ers unlike myself who is a PVE'er).

And no it isnt harder PVP'ing that is hghly subjective.. what it is, is an entirely different way of playing and not one that is any harder than the other, just different and therefore does not deserve better rewards.

To usea metaphor it is a bit like a Snooker player urning to a Pool player and saying his game is more difficult so he should get more pize money.. its nonsense.. both games reqire skill, both games have similarities..but they also have key, important differences that matter and appeal only to those who love that particular style of game.

I would also take umbrage to he commnt that it is Elite people who PVP as that implies only the non elite PVE, which is complete rubbish.. the differences between PVE and PVP ae simply a matter of preference in "how" you play a game, not a indicator of whehther you are a better player or a worse player and that sort of attempt to make themselves out to be super special is exactly the sort of thing that leads to attemps to rationalise why they should get better stuff than everyone else.. lol and they SHOULD'NT.

If you don't want to compete with other people, why play an MMO? I can understand that some people wnat to compete in other ways - best outfitted chars, best crafter, most knowledgeable of the game, are just a few of the other ways. Would you argue that someone who has worked his way up to master crafter shouldn't get any more rewards than someone who hasn't because of it? It's the same with PvP.

You see this is why there is a difference between MMO's and like what this is an MMORPG in an mmo like many FPS games the aim is indeed competitiveness and rightly so, testing your skill against others, worrying about points and rankings etc.etc... but in an MMORPG like this althoug the competitive aspects of PVP s often included and sometimes, more strongly emphasised.. the real aim on an MMORPG is for "cooperative" play, its as much about the sociel and teamwork and story elements as it is about anything else, perhaps more so because that is the crux of ALL RPG's, the story and your role in it.. not beating the guy next to you and dancing on his corpse..

anyway I digress and our chat hasgone more than a little off topic now so ill leave it at this for my part.

[Stormnet]

For me, a lack of balance in a game is a major turnoff.

Whipping out the nerf bat instead of fixing what is really wrong with the gameplay.

Bug testing a game while I pay for it ( IE: AoC being released too early, where were those alpha/beta testers?)

Kid like idiots. I say kidlike because there are adults who just like to see the world burn. They should be shot for ruining other peoples experience.

I've played a couple of Cryptics games and haven't seen the level of incompetence that I've seen from other Mmo makers. Hopefully that trend continues. I assume with the passion of the players and programmers here that the game will rock right out of the gate!

[Rhyfelur]

Bumping this old Thread from like page 83 because I think it was pretty interesting.

[Deci]

What I think I see here is a list of why we all left SWG. I might comment... this is Cryptic, not SOE and Im guessing they know ALL about NGE chapter and verse.... so relax

[ArdraVentax]

I don't think it matters, since few of the features of Galaxies are going to be in STO.