"Captain" vs. "commander": A Terminology Suggestion to Cryptic

[Flatfingers]

As the thread title says, I'd like to suggest to Cryptic a minor but potentially useful change in terminology. Rather than saying that players will be able to "captain their own ship," may I suggest the following phrases:


"command your own ship"
"be the commanding officer of your own ship"
"be the commander of your own ship"
"As commander of your ship, you'll be able to..."

A lot of people have been confused by Cryptic personnel (including Jack Emmert and Craig Zinkievich) using the term "captain" when what they're really describing is players being able to command their own ship and the NPC crew aboard them. They're talking about a role -- commanding officer -- but using a rank -- Captain -- instead.

And so there's been a bunch of unnecessary tumult from potential players of Star Trek Online who look forward to rising in the ranks of Starfleet as per Star Trek canon. They see the comments from Cryptic personnel that they'll be able to "captain your own ship" and think that Cryptic is talking about characters starting out with the rank of Captain when that's not the case.

A very simple change in word usage from the verb or noun "captain" to the verb "command" or the noun "commander" (or even better, "commanding officer") will almost entirely eliminate this confusion. Yes, there's also a rank of Commander, but far fewer players will confuse the role term "commander" with the rank of Commander as they have been with the rank of Captain.

I don't usually advocate changes in word usage to solve problems. This is the exception to that rule. :)

How about it, Cryptic? Thanks for considering this suggestion!

--Flatfingers

[Prospero]

id prefer being called "skipper" by my crew, if they objected i would.......................be disappointed

[Pilov]

In the press release I thought it was made pretty clear that your the "Captain" of your ship, but you don't start off at the rank of "Captain".

[RogueEnterprise]

Great idea, Flatfingers.

[Pilov]

id prefer being called "skipper" by my crew, if they objected i would.......................be disappointed

lol court marshal them if they object

[bannedaccount]

But in Naval Terms anyone in command of the ship regardless of rank is called Captain. I'm pretty sure thats the case

[Flatfingers]

In the press release I thought it was made pretty clear that your the "Captain" of your ship, but you don't start off at the rank of "Captain".

I was pretty sure this was what they meant, too, Pilov, but I don't believe it was made clear enough.

And subsequent usage by Jack and Craig of "captain" as a role have further confused people, I think.

Using the terms "command" and "commander" would pretty much eliminate all this confusion, freeing us up to be confused about lots of other things. :)

--Flatfingers

[Tuvya]

I was pretty sure this was what they meant, too, Pilov, but I don't believe it was made clear enough.

And subsequent usage by Jack and Craig of "captain" as a role have further confused people, I think.

Using the terms "command" and "commander" would pretty much eliminate all this confusion, freeing us up to be confused about lots of other things. :)

--Flatfingers

except that's incorrect protocol. You are commander of a military base, you are captain of a ship. It doesn't matter if you are a Marine Colonel, a Navy Lieutenant, or a navy Admiral if it is your boat, you are the Captain of that boat and are referred to as "captain" by the crew.

[bannedaccount]

I was right, Huzzah!

[Flatfingers]

But in Naval Terms anyone in command of the ship regardless of rank is called Captain. I'm pretty sure thats the case

Individuals in command of a ship are addressed with the courtesy title of "captain" whether they hold that rank or not -- that's correct.

But although that would be correct, the folks at Cryptic aren't using the term "captain" as an address to a specific player. ("Hello, captain!") They're describing the role players will have aboard their personal ship.

In that usage, it would, I think, clear up a lot of confusion to use the perfectly correct term "commander" instead. There'll be some people who'll think that means they start the game with the rank of Commander, but I'm pretty confident there'll be a lot fewer of them than the folks who've wondered if they'd start as Captain based on Cryptic's current use of the term "captain."

This isn't a big deal; it's just a suggestion for something very simple that Cryptic could do when communicating with potential subscribers that will alleviate some confusion that's obviously been going around.

--Flatfingers

[Varrangian]

If I am talking about my friend John who is in command of a ship, I would say, "John is the captain of the USS Constitution" regardless of rank, this is still the form I would use to refer to his position.

This is all Cryptic is doing and to be totally honest if people can't get beyond the semantics of the wording then we have a bigger crisis on our hands.

[TheMasterpiece]

In the press release I thought it was made pretty clear that your the "Captain" of your ship, but you don't start off at the rank of "Captain".




In the webcast it was made very clear, he said it word for word about being a captain in ROLE NOT in RANK. However not everyone saw that and not everyone listens. So in the interest of the greater good perhaps that change in terminology wouldnt hurt

[Tuvya]

Individuals in command of a ship are addressed with the courtesy title of "captain" whether they hold that rank or not -- that's correct.

But although that would be correct, the folks at Cryptic aren't using the term "captain" as an address to a specific player. ("Hello, captain!") They're describing the role players will have aboard their personal ship.

In that usage, it would, I think, clear up a lot of confusion to use the perfectly correct term "commander" instead. There'll be some people who'll think that means they start the game with the rank of Commander, but I'm pretty confident there'll be a lot fewer of them than the folks who've wondered if they'd start as Captain based on Cryptic's current use of the term "captain."


To say someone is the commander of a ship is an insult to them. They are the Captain of the ship, period.

It's amazing to me that a bunch of trek fans who claim to be knowledgable couldn't grasp the simple concept that rank is not equal to position.

[Pilov]

To say someone is the commander of a ship is an insult to them. They are the Captain of the ship, period.

It's amazing to me that a bunch of trek fans who claim to be knowledgable couldn't grasp the simple concept that rank is not equal to position.

It's amazing to me that Nacho cheese stays liquid at room temperature.............. you don't see me posting that on the forums though do you?

[Jerosh_Skitari]

First off, I'd like to say that Starfleet is not the navy, protocols may be different.
Secondly, I think that's a good idea Flatfingers, I've been thinking the same thing myself.
Thirdly, tee hee, thirdly is a fun word.
Finally, there are enough people who don't understand the idea that one word can mean two different things. So, while you shouldn't always accomodate those people, in this case, it might be prudent.

[bannedaccount]

why are people getting bogged down in semantics? its only a game and tis not even released yet. its all a case of Tometo Tomato :(

[Pilov]

First off, I'd like to say that Starfleet is not the navy, protocols may be different.
Secondly, I think that's a good idea Flatfingers, I've been thinking the same thing myself.
Thirdly, tee hee, thirdly is a fun word.
Finally, there are enough people who don't understand the idea that one word can mean two different things. So, while you shouldn't always accomodate those people, in this case, it might be prudent.

/agree

someone who thinks about the common person

Huzzah!!!!!!

[11710]

It's amazing to me that Nacho cheese stays liquid at room temperature.............. you don't see me posting that on the forums though do you?

Indeed Pilov. I don't understand why people have to get bent out of shape over a pretty sound idea.

[Pilov]

Indeed Pilov. I don't understand why people have to get bent out of shape over a pretty sound idea.

Neither do I good sir neither do I.

[Erock82]

In the US Navy for example - anyone in command of any ship is 'captain' or 'skipper'. Rank is for an individual i.e. the rank of Ensign, Lt JG, Lt, Lt Cdr. A Commander in rank may also be the captain of a ship but he is also referred to as 'in command of the boat' and or whatever facility the officer is in charge of.

When responding to an executive officer's order on a ship you respond 'aye Captain'. Even if he/she may be a Lieutenant Commander or some such. Hope that helps somehow.

BTW Trek tends to follow standard naval traditions in terms of rank structure and chains of command.

[Varrangian]

In the US Navy for example - anyone in command of any ship is 'captain' or 'skipper'. Rank is for an individual i.e. the rank of Ensign, Lt JG, Lt, Lt Cdr. A Commander in rank may also be the captain of a ship but he is also referred to as 'in command of the boat' and or whatever facility the officer is in charge of.

When responding to an executive officer's order on a ship you respond 'aye Captain'. Even if he/she may be a Lieutenant Commander or some such. Hope that helps somehow.

BTW Trek tends to follow standard naval traditions in terms of rank structure and chains of command.

Aye Captain!

[Dericho]

First off, I'd like to say that Starfleet is not the navy, protocols may be different.
Secondly, I think that's a good idea Flatfingers, I've been thinking the same thing myself.
Thirdly, tee hee, thirdly is a fun word.
Finally, there are enough people who don't understand the idea that one word can mean two different things. So, while you shouldn't always accomodate those people, in this case, it might be prudent.

Why not educate them? Playing to the lowest common denominator eventually makes everyone just that...

[Erock82]

Aye Captain!

lol love it.

[Varrangian]

lol love it.

Oh I have that ingrained... with any luck Officers Candidate school is about a year away. (reserves though)

[Heavensrun]

Neither do I good sir neither do I.

-I- don't understand what's so amazing about nacho cheese staying liquid at room temperature. Lots of things do that. ;p

[Flatfingers]

When responding to an executive officer's order on a ship you respond 'aye Captain'. Even if he/she may be a Lieutenant Commander or some such. Hope that helps somehow.

That is correct. As I said earlier, you call the commander of a vessel by the courtesy title of "captain" when directly addressing him or her or referring to him or her by name.

It's a little confusing to use that term, however, when what you're talking about is the role a person has aboard some ship. In that case, it helps prevent confusion among people who are interested in military ranks (but who don't know the courtesies and traditions) to refer to the commander of a vessel as "commander," a term that is in absolutely no way an insult of any kind.

BTW Trek tends to follow standard naval traditions in terms of rank structure and chains of command.

Also correct. It doesn't mean STO has to follow Star Trek slavishly in every respect; it's just a convenient starting point.

why are people getting bogged down in semantics? its only a game and tis not even released yet. its all a case of Tometo Tomato :(

I'd agree with this criticism if -- IF -- I had been thinking anything remotely like, "OMG they're saying it wrong OMG OMG OMG!" But I wasn't, and I'm not.

It's no skin off my teeth if Cryptic keeps using the term "captain" when "commander" would be less confusing -- I already know the difference. What I'm trying to do here is suggest that Cryptic consider using a different and, I think, less confusing but no less accurate term.

That's not a criticism of Cryptic from which they need to be defended by anyone. It's a suggestion, which they're perfectly free to ignore.

But don't worry. When and if I criticize Cryptic for some decision they make, you won't have to guess about whether I'm disagreeing with them or not. :)

--Flatfingers

[GozerTC]

I'd agree with this criticism if -- IF -- I had been thinking anything remotely like, "OMG they're saying it wrong OMG OMG OMG!" But I wasn't, and I'm not.

It's no skin off my teeth if Cryptic keeps using the term "captain" when "commander" would be less confusing -- I already know the difference. What I'm trying to do here is suggest that Cryptic consider using a different and, I think, less confusing but no less accurate term.

That's not a criticism of Cryptic from which they need to be defended by anyone. It's a suggestion, which they're perfectly free to ignore.

But don't worry. When and if I criticize Cryptic for some decision they make, you won't have to guess about whether I'm disagreeing with them or not. :)

--Flatfingers

I agree, it's just a simple suggestion. It helps cut down on follow up questions by those who can't tell the difference between role and rank. :)

It's not a major thing and it doesn't really matter but it's a nice simple suggestion. I say put it in their suggestion box. :)

[buckarama]

I'm not sure I agree with you.

They are in Command of the vessel, not the Captain. I don't recall anyone other than a Captain being called captain.

I remember when Troy was in charge of the Enterprise they called her Lt. Commander. When Commodore Whathisname, Wesley? Took command of the enterprise in Doomsday machine he was always addressed as Commodore.


I may be wrong, but I sure don't remember it. :)

[r2data]

It's no skin off my teeth if Cryptic keeps using the term "captain" when "commander" would be less confusing -- I already know the difference. What I'm trying to do here is suggest that Cryptic consider using a different and, I think, less confusing but no less accurate term.


I would agree with you there although I think I see a slight flaw in your argument... being that there is a rank of "Commander" in the rank structure. It would make sense using it only if they restricted themselves to saying "in command" or "commanding officer" but using "commander" would only raise the same issue.... albeit with the term "commander" instead of "captain".

[Erock82]

Oh I have that ingrained... with any luck Officers Candidate school is about a year away. (reserves though)

sorry to thread hijack but... im doing exactly that myself in about a year and a half... wrapping up my degree.

[Flatfingers]

I'm not sure I agree with you.

They are in Command of the vessel, not the Captain. I don't recall anyone other than a Captain being called captain.

I remember when Troy was in charge of the Enterprise they called her Lt. Commander. When Commodore Whathisname, Wesley? Took command of the enterprise in Doomsday machine he was always addressed as Commodore.

I may be wrong, but I sure don't remember it. :)

No, you're correct. There's one other nuance here we haven't mentioned, which is that there's a difference between being temporarily responsible for a ship's operation, and being the single officially designated "master and commander."

The person who is legally/militarily assigned as master of a ship will be given the courtesy title of "captain" in address and reference, even if they don't hold the rank of Captain in some official organization.

But someone who is only temporarily controlling the ship (such as an officer of the watch) is not given the courtesy title of captain. The commanding officer is still the commanding officer; that doesn't change even when someone else is given temporary responsibility for operating the ship. Therefore only the official commander is granted the courtesy title of "captain."

If there's an official change of assignment -- something like what we saw in the TNG episodes "Chain of Command," when Captain Picard was officially relieved of his command of the Enterprise and that command was formally passed to Captain Jellico -- then that new officer becomes the commander of the ship, and will be given the courtesy title of "captain" even if they don't hold the rank title of Captain.

This is why Lt. Cmdr. Hobson (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Christopher_Hobson) eventually referred to Lt. Cmdr. Data as "captain" at the end of the TNG episode "Redemption II." Although Data was not a Captain in rank, because he had officially been assigned to the Sutherland as her commanding officer, he was entitled to the courtesy address of "captain."

I know, it's a little tricky. And I'm not trying to muddle the original suggestion; I'm just providing a little more information on the specific question that was asked about people other than the formal master of a ship not being addressed as "captain."

Naval courtesies and traditions are wonderful things. :)

--Flatfingers

[Erock82]

That is correct. As I said earlier, you call the commander of a vessel by the courtesy title of "captain" when directly addressing him or her or referring to him or her by name.

It's a little confusing to use that term, however, when what you're talking about is the role a person has aboard some ship. In that case, it helps prevent confusion among people who are interested in military ranks (but who don't know the courtesies and traditions) to refer to the commander of a vessel as "commander," a term that is in absolutely no way an insult of any kind.

well my suggestion is put it in cryptic's suggestion box. but... if i ever get a command one day and someone doesnt call me captain - i'll bust him so fast he/she wouldnt see it coming.

[Varrangian]

sorry to thread hijack but... im doing exactly that myself in about a year and a half... wrapping up my degree.

Hijack again, Navy? or another branch?

[Erock82]

Hijack again, Navy? or another branch?

navy, active. right now though - my bed, sleep. pm or something to converse.

[Pdt_the_confused]

hmm there seems to be a great deal of confusion here...

lets clarify. (officers only)

Rank.
Star Trek, Starfleet uses the traditional Earth (western) Naval ranks.

ENS----------Ensign
LT jg---------Lieutenant junior grade
LT------------Lieutenant
LT CMDR----Lieutenant Commander
CMDR--------Commander
CAPT--------Captain
FCAPT-------Fleet Captain*
CDORE------Commodore**
RADM-------Rear Admiral
VADM-------Vice Admiral
ADM---------Admiral
FADM-------Fleet Admiral

*Fleet Captain was mostly an honorific, denoting senority and sometimes major service
**When ever a visiting Captian (by rank) came aboard another Captain's ship, they were often "unofficially" promoted to Commodore.

Anyone who is given command totally and completely of a ship is, by definition and tradition, captain of that ship.
Anyone who is temporarily placed in command by circumstance or by the actual captain, would be referred to by their actual rank (or as is normal when referring to them even when not in command: the highest portion of their rank, lieutenant rather than lieutenant jg, commander rather than lieutenant commander).

Yes they are in command of their ship, but... Commander is also a Rank in the Starfleet naval tradition, and could also be construed as demoting them...

ex: When you come aboard a ship, and the Captain is not in front of you (and therefore you do not yet know the rank of the vessel's commanding officer) you will want to ask to see the Captian, not the Commander.

note: I agree that perhaps they (Cryptic) were not entirely clear on the matter. What should have been said is: You will be captain of your own ship and crew, starting as an Ensign and working your way up through the ranks and commanding bigger and better ships and crews.

[Roberto]

But in Naval Terms anyone in command of the ship regardless of rank is called Captain. I'm pretty sure thats the case

You're correct.