My big mouth...

[Gimmick]

About a week or so ago I opened my big mouth and said I wanted a smart game, not just another MMO dumb game like every other MMO presently extant. After watching the 45 minute conference and the trailer multiple times through, my big mouth is only about half as large, now.

I didn't care for what I saw in the trailer. Visually, it's gorgeous, and though I realize the characters are still in a development state, their look really should be improved upon prior to release, because they are very cartoony. Combat looked like combat always looks, though Mr. Emmert expressed that characters would be able to dive for cover, etc. Really don't want to see a "step behind that tree to avoid arrows" means of 'diving for cover'. I honestly felt there wasn't enough, and I'll freely admit I need to see more before I can make a full assessment about whether or not I will play this game.

I somewhat like the idea of everyone starting as a 'Captain', now, because we'll all have NPC crews, except for two things...

1) Does Cryptic understand there are going to be a whole LOT of people playing this game? I mean, Star Trek fans, Science Fiction fans, and MMORPG fans will flock to this game. My estimate is that, if it's executed correctly, you could see fifteen to twenty million players within 365 days. The name recognition this brings is enormous, the fact of Cryptic's successes with CoH/CoV and, certainly, what Champions Online will bring... that's double the name recognition right there. Not trying to blow smoke up anyone's skirt or trying to give Cryptic a big head, here, but we all know it's the truth. Okay, so the point is this... 15 to 25 million ships don't exist, in canon, between all of the empires combined, and certainly not between the Klingon Empire and the Federation. If, indeed, Cryptic is to remain with the canon, I would advise...

2) MMORPGs are supposed to be inherently social games, right? Why not have an Academy period, where players learn the game, their characters Departmental skills, and a few special electives -make Academy training a large beginning part of the game? During this period, have the character go through certain missions that will help define the continuing gaming experience of the player. Move them next into the Cadet Cruise, as in all the role-playing games developed for Star Trek so far, to help further define the continuing game experience and help place them with a like-minded crew. Finally, at the end of the Cadet Cruise, give them a list of ships with like-minded crews who need crewmembers from the players chosen department -science, engineering, medical, operations, Marines, helm, navigation, etc.- and let them beam aboard that ship to participate in the missions of the crew. Make the crews a mixture of Humans and AIs, leave one-third of the crew slots open for players who really don't want their characters to be part of a specific crew, and are just moving through.

Guys, this isn't hard, and it will answer a whole lot of questions, especially for Trekkers like me. I don't understand why this part of it is so difficult to wrap your heads around. The ships are social bases, not the fleets -the fleets are expanded bases, guilds in the fantasy terminology-, and the ships should be treated as such. Make players earn their way up, don't have 15 to 20 million starships roaming the galaxy with NPC crews, and make a social game -massively multiplayer- be such. If you've come far enough to understand that each ship has a 'Captain' with multiple NPCs -hundreds if necessary- which is going to suck a LOT of juice out of the game, why not take the next logical step and develop the game for real all the way through?

It will be a unique experience, a unique game, and from what I've seen thus far, you're simply making a version of WoW with Star Trek skin on it. You're doing almost exactly, on the outside at least, what Perpetual was doing, except you're leaving the ship interiors in. What Perpetual was doing, the direction they were moving, was completely bass ackwards of what they should have been doing, what they promised they would do in the beginning.

It's time for something new, fella's. Let's have Star Trek, not just a clone. Take your time and do it right.

Thank you for listening.

[Admiral_Patrick]

After talking on some of the threads here I keep running into the same barrier.

Summed up, CS, as of now, does not have "technologies" to incorporate PC crews. They hope to, maybe as an expansion or later on, but they probably wont by release. The number of people who actually care or not seems to be about 50/50.

[Gimmick]

Okay, wait a minute... If they can put multiple avatars on the same field of battle for PvP on a planet, it shouldn't be ANY different on a starship, right? Or, does it also have to do with the interactive portions such as computers and interfaces on the bridge and throughout the ship? If that's the case, since there are mini-games in many MMORPGs, why not take that concept and make it more interactive. The center of any MMORPG is, pretty much, the interactivity matrice, correct, where all actions, decisions, graphics, and changes take place, where packets are sent to all players in a particular zone or within a certain range of other players?

Since I'm not a programmer I know I can't really speak to how complex this would be, but I am not a complete idiot when it comes to programming, either, and this seems to me to be not amazingly complex. The technology already exists and I feel it should be implemented, if possible.

[LordDave]

To quote an article:
"The difficulty is that you have to find moment-to-moment gameplay for your security station, for your tactical station, for your science station, that is as interesting and compelling as flying the ship and shooting things and blowing things up," Emmert said. "We had discussed a number of ways of doing it, but then there's also technical hurdles, like getting everyone in the ship, and [determining] what view, what they're seeing."

[TheDart]

The code isn't entirely the problem, unfortunately - it's the concept.

The task of making player-manned stations aboard a single ship fun - and easy to coordinate - is a very daunting task. There are a few threads here where people are tossing around ideas for possible designs, however, as many want to offer solutions to Cryptic to make this feature a reality.

Do a search for Samy - his posts today on the topic have been very promising.

[Admiral_Patrick]

To quote an article:

The problem I have with that article. and where I think Jack is taking the wrong approach, is that they shouldnt struggle and try to make EVERY moment enjoyable. Every moment on Bridge Commander wasnt enjoyable, but that was a fun game.

[Admiral_Patrick]

The code isn't entirely the problem, unfortunately - it's the concept.

The task of making player-manned stations aboard a single ship fun - and easy to coordinate - is a very daunting task. There are a few threads here where people are tossing around ideas for possible designs, however, as many want to offer solutions to Cryptic to make this feature a reality.

Do a search for Samy - his posts today on the topic have been very promising.

Did the work for you

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=5949

Start talking there.

[Cyjack]

Guys, this isn't hard, ....

Which explains why its so common of course.Oh wait, no it isnt...it doesn't exist anywhere.

Im sorry, it seems to me this is just another wall of text on player crews, which could have gone in any of the other threads on the subject.

[connobi]

About a week or so ago I opened my big mouth and said I wanted a smart game, not just another MMO dumb game like every other MMO presently extant. After watching the 45 minute conference and the trailer multiple times through, my big mouth is only about half as large, now.

I didn't care for what I saw in the trailer. Visually, it's gorgeous, and though I realize the characters are still in a development state, their look really should be improved upon prior to release, because they are very cartoony. Combat looked like combat always looks, though Mr. Emmert expressed that characters would be able to dive for cover, etc. Really don't want to see a "step behind that tree to avoid arrows" means of 'diving for cover'. I honestly felt there wasn't enough, and I'll freely admit I need to see more before I can make a full assessment about whether or not I will play this game.

I somewhat like the idea of everyone starting as a 'Captain', now, because we'll all have NPC crews, except for two things...

1) Does Cryptic understand there are going to be a whole LOT of people playing this game? I mean, Star Trek fans, Science Fiction fans, and MMORPG fans will flock to this game. My estimate is that, if it's executed correctly, you could see fifteen to twenty million players within 365 days. The name recognition this brings is enormous, the fact of Cryptic's successes with CoH/CoV and, certainly, what Champions Online will bring... that's double the name recognition right there. Not trying to blow smoke up anyone's skirt or trying to give Cryptic a big head, here, but we all know it's the truth. Okay, so the point is this... 15 to 25 million ships don't exist, in canon, between all of the empires combined, and certainly not between the Klingon Empire and the Federation. If, indeed, Cryptic is to remain with the canon, I would advise...

2) MMORPGs are supposed to be inherently social games, right? Why not have an Academy period, where players learn the game, their characters Departmental skills, and a few special electives -make Academy training a large beginning part of the game? During this period, have the character go through certain missions that will help define the continuing gaming experience of the player. Move them next into the Cadet Cruise, as in all the role-playing games developed for Star Trek so far, to help further define the continuing game experience and help place them with a like-minded crew. Finally, at the end of the Cadet Cruise, give them a list of ships with like-minded crews who need crewmembers from the players chosen department -science, engineering, medical, operations, Marines, helm, navigation, etc.- and let them beam aboard that ship to participate in the missions of the crew. Make the crews a mixture of Humans and AIs, leave one-third of the crew slots open for players who really don't want their characters to be part of a specific crew, and are just moving through.

Guys, this isn't hard, and it will answer a whole lot of questions, especially for Trekkers like me. I don't understand why this part of it is so difficult to wrap your heads around. The ships are social bases, not the fleets -the fleets are expanded bases, guilds in the fantasy terminology-, and the ships should be treated as such. Make players earn their way up, don't have 15 to 20 million starships roaming the galaxy with NPC crews, and make a social game -massively multiplayer- be such. If you've come far enough to understand that each ship has a 'Captain' with multiple NPCs -hundreds if necessary- which is going to suck a LOT of juice out of the game, why not take the next logical step and develop the game for real all the way through?

It will be a unique experience, a unique game, and from what I've seen thus far, you're simply making a version of WoW with Star Trek skin on it. You're doing almost exactly, on the outside at least, what Perpetual was doing, except you're leaving the ship interiors in. What Perpetual was doing, the direction they were moving, was completely bass ackwards of what they should have been doing, what they promised they would do in the beginning.

It's time for something new, fella's. Let's have Star Trek, not just a clone. Take your time and do it right.

Thank you for listening.


Whoa!!! I'm not reading all that!!! :eek:

Sum it up in one word!! :D

[TheDart]

The problem I have with that article. and where I think Jack is taking the wrong approach, is that they shouldnt struggle and try to make EVERY moment enjoyable. Every moment on Bridge Commander wasnt enjoyable, but that was a fun game.

While that is a viable approach, it does run into some problems unique to multiplayer games - if you prefer to play with a PC crew, for example, but have a short time available to play in this session, you want to be guaranteed that you'll be able to hop in game, find a ship, have some fun, and then pop back off to go to work, or feed your kids, or whatever.

Cryptic aren't opposed to adding the feature in later, if they figure out how to make it fun - they just need to figure it out. :)

[LordDave]

The problem I have with that article. and where I think Jack is taking the wrong approach, is that they shouldnt struggle and try to make EVERY moment enjoyable. Every moment on Bridge Commander wasnt enjoyable, but that was a fun game.

Ahhh but if half the core gameplay is that and you can only make 20% of the time fun...
Yeah.

[Admiral_Patrick]

Ahhh but if half the core gameplay is that and you can only make 20% of the time fun...
Yeah.

Again, I use WoW for an example. Who has fun even 20% of the time on WoW? Its addictive and it looks pretty. With that said, why would bridge officers stay on the bridge and sit there and do nothing when they can be replaced by an NPC? They can prounce around the rest of the ship doing just about anything.

[Admiral_Patrick]

While that is a viable approach, it does run into some problems unique to multiplayer games - if you prefer to play with a PC crew, for example, but have a short time available to play in this session, you want to be guaranteed that you'll be able to hop in game, find a ship, have some fun, and then pop back off to go to work, or feed your kids, or whatever.

Cryptic aren't opposed to adding the feature in later, if they figure out how to make it fun - they just need to figure it out. :)

I understand that, we have been going around in circles all day. I just wish Razor would make himself useful and combine all these threads into one.

[Ltfngr]

I can't answer for the dev team, but...

In the world of MMOs, the people you are attempting to appeal to, and the variable playing times people have prevent full player crews except for a very, very small miniority of players.

I believe Cryptic does not want this to turn into a job to play for anyone. Many MMO guilds are. That's why the crew are NPCs that can be ordered around. It is hard enough for my WoW guild to get 6 people together for 4 hours on a Wednesday night. And we know each other in RL, let alone being strewn across the world in differing time zones.

I applaud you for wanting the player crews, and it would be a lot more immersive for role playing purposes, but the logistics would eliminate the game for 90% of the potential customer base.

As to a tutorial start, we have heard nothing from Cryptic if they are going to do that. They did do it for City of Heroes and City of Villains, however, and that makes me believe that is what is going to happen.

Also, you are severely overestimating the player potential. Star Wars Galaxy never hit 1 million subscribers. They weren't even close. I do not know what the appeal of Star Trek is over in China, who dwarfs the amount of players that are in the United States. WoW's numbers are coming primarily from China. Age of Conan's numbers are coming from Europe. The only comparison I can give is Star Wars, which is estimated 350k subscribers (and many of those have the Station Pass and thus count towards EQ/EQ2 numbers too and may not be very active on Star Wars).

[Admiral_Patrick]

I can't answer for the dev team, but...

In the world of MMOs, the people you are attempting to appeal to, and the variable playing times people have prevent full player crews except for a very, very small miniority of players.

I believe Cryptic does not want this to turn into a job to play for anyone. Many MMO guilds are. That's why the crew are NPCs that can be ordered around. It is hard enough for my WoW guild to get 6 people together for 4 hours on a Wednesday night. And we know each other in RL, let alone being strewn across the world in differing time zones.

I applaud you for wanting the player crews, and it would be a lot more immersive for role playing purposes, but the logistics would eliminate the game for 90% of the potential customer base.

As to a tutorial start, we have heard nothing from Cryptic if they are going to do that. They did do it for City of Heroes and City of Villains, however, and that makes me believe that is what is going to happen.

Also, you are severely overestimating the player potential. Star Wars Galaxy never hit 1 million subscribers. They weren't even close. I do not know what the appeal of Star Trek is over in China, who dwarfs the amount of players that are in the United States. WoW's numbers are coming primarily from China. Age of Conan's numbers are coming from Europe. The only comparison I can give is Star Wars, which is estimated 350k subscribers (and many of those have the Station Pass and thus count towards EQ/EQ2 numbers too and may not be very active on Star Wars).

Also dont forget that SWG has probably the worst reputation of any mmorpgs because of the way they screwed up at launch til about the two year mark.

[Ltfngr]

Sorry for the double posting. My laptop is being flaky.

(I'm still in Las Vegas)

Star Wars did get a bad reputation early on, but the initial inrush of players was only around 500k at most, and they lost half or more because of their anti-player attitudes and actions by the in-game administrators.

Only 2 games have broke the million mark: WoW and Lineage, and Lineage did it because of the Korean gaming population that has embraced it.

[LordDave]

Again, I use WoW for an example. Who has fun even 20% of the time on WoW? Its addictive and it looks pretty. With that said, why would bridge officers stay on the bridge and sit there and do nothing when they can be replaced by an NPC? They can prounce around the rest of the ship doing just about anything.

I had fun in WoW up until end game. But I kept saying to everyone who reached 70: "Now you can start playing the game" Which, ironically, is the truth. Everyone tries to get to the max level as fast as possible then they find out how much it sucks.

As for prouncing around the ship: That implies there's something to do on the ship. For each person you'd have to create enough things to do dynamically that, at any given time, you will have a goal. Mostly short term and some long term.
Lots of people have good ideas, but they are in the complexity of a game in and of itself.

[Admiral_Patrick]

I had fun in WoW up until end game. But I kept saying to everyone who reached 70: "Now you can start playing the game" Which, ironically, is the truth. Everyone tries to get to the max level as fast as possible then they find out how much it sucks.

As for prouncing around the ship: That implies there's something to do on the ship. For each person you'd have to create enough things to do dynamically that, at any given time, you will have a goal. Mostly short term and some long term.
Lots of people have good ideas, but they are in the complexity of a game in and of itself.

One word: Crafting

[Gimmick]

Also, you are severely overestimating the player potential. Star Wars Galaxy never hit 1 million subscribers.That's because SWG was crap from the beginning. However Cryptic builds this game, even if they were to do an ultimately crappy job, its quality will outstrip SWG -yes, I have played it and it blows- by leagues.

Okay, let's say I understand the idea about logistics and the idea of getting multiple players together in the same place to perform the same mission(s) being close to impossible, which is a viable reason to continue with 15 to 20 million starships, I still think server power is going to take a pretty serious hit with all the additional NPCs.

[LordDave]

One word: Crafting

In a world of replicators? pfft.

[Admiral_Patrick]

That's because SWG was crap from the beginning. However Cryptic builds this game, even if they were to do an ultimately crappy job, its quality will outstrip SWG -yes, I have played it and it blows- by leagues.

Okay, let's say I understand the idea about logistics and the idea of getting multiple players together in the same place to perform the same mission(s) being close to impossible, which is a viable reason to continue with 15 to 20 million starships, I still think server power is going to take a pretty serious hit with all the additional NPCs.

You really should read the other threads on this issue. I think the best idea is having NPCs and PCs interchangeable.

[Admiral_Patrick]

In a world of replicators? pfft.

Well Im sure they could think of something.

[Ltfngr]

Again, I use WoW for an example. Who has fun even 20% of the time on WoW? Its addictive and it looks pretty. With that said, why would bridge officers stay on the bridge and sit there and do nothing when they can be replaced by an NPC? They can prounce around the rest of the ship doing just about anything.

I go back and forth on WoW. Some days, it is boring as heck, other days I really enjoy it.

However, at the 'endgame' of WoW, it does require grouping. And after you have done all the dungeons, the only thing left is getting better equipment to do those dungeons again and again...and thus, the rut.

However, according to what Jack said at the webcast, it looks like you can always explore on your own in the end, finding new planets and resources...the heart of Star Trek. He was talking of infinite planets to explore, according to the way they've designed things. This appeals to me, and looks a whole lot more promising than trying to get stuff that gives the most plusses, like WoW, CoH, or other MMOs.

[Heavensrun]

One word: Crafting

One other word: Replicators.

Seriously, crafting goods is kindof a joke when you're dealing with a continuity in which anyone can say "Computer, I want a steak, medium rare and lightly salted, with a sprig of parsley. Oh, and a nice, tall glass of soda, with crushed ice. Make it a frosty mug."

(vween)

I mean, does -anyone- actually think that crafting of any kind would be an acceptable time-sink in a Star Trek MMO?

[Heavensrun]

In a world of replicators? pfft.

Beat me to it. Yeesh these boards are quick.

[TheDart]

I mean, does -anyone- actually think that crafting of any kind would be an acceptable time-sink in a Star Trek MMO?

Yup. There's a thread elsewhere on the boards - I can't recall the name at the moment, I apologize for not offering a direct link - that asked this very question, and is full of examples of hand-crafting that we've seen within Trek canon.

Show me a Klingon who will use a replicated bat'leth and I'll show you a dead Klingon. :D

[Gimmick]

For people who don't want to read long posts, I write long posts specifically so you won't respond.

I'm also hearing complaints about game complexity... I refer to my OP, I want a smart game, a game that requires me to think, to figure things out, to explore and discover, to learn the game as I'm moving along, which is also why I recommend the Academy and the Cadet Cruise.

Players in MMORPGs to this point have always played the same paths, the same quests... if I'm a NE Hunter I play the same tasks with different names as a Dwarf Hunter, etc. Players should be given tasks, in an Academy and/or Cadet Cruise setting, that gauge what type of game the player wants, whether it's oriented more around action or exploration or diplomacy or medical assistance or scientific discoverery, etc. A player given a task determines the best solution from their point of view, and the points from the solution are tallied among those same aspects of development (exploration, action, etc.) and this allows the game to determine what manner of gaming the player prefers. As the missions are developed for the game, the mission developer gauges each of these same aspects, with a primary aspect chosen for clarity among the other aspects, and players will have these types of missions offered to their characters throughout their characters game-play career. Now, before anyone screams, each of these missions must be a variation on the primary aspect theme, including other aspects as well and, as a player evolves with their character throughout gameplay the missions begin to change, as well.

As far as complexity and tasks go, why should Cryptic be given a break in designing a MMORPG for the most detail-intensive television, movie, video game, and novel universe in existence? If you're going to take a property and develop it, you better be prepared to develop the entire thing, not just a few small but important aspects of that universe.

Gear up, Cryptic dudes, and do this one to the max, please?

[Ltfngr]

You really should read the other threads on this issue. I think the best idea is having NPCs and PCs interchangeable.

I can't see it happening at the start, but if it is possible, it would be good in a future expansion.

I'm not against an all-PC crew by any means. I'm a roleplayer at heart, and used to play on many a MUSH. I play solo a LOT, however, as do many others I know of and thus we cannot have it as a requirement to have an all-PC crew (and I have already heard people whining that it should be that way, so my statement here is not all that far fetched)

[TheDart]

Brief derail - aha! A fellow recovering MUSH nerd! What's up? :D

[Gimmick]

You really should read the other threads on this issue. I think the best idea is having NPCs and PCs interchangeable.Now THAT's something I would absolutely agree on.

[Deletham_Tomalak]

What if instead of one massive server (so as not to have a captain flood) we had multiple smaller servers this might help keep lag down (I may be wrong) and give people with weaker PCs less to process (Fewer ships and people means less data). Also allows for specialty servers like WoW which could be Combat Servers, General Servers, and Exploration Servers. Helps tailor what game experience people want for a lifetime or day to day basis.

[LordDave]

Now THAT's something I would absolutely agree on.

Many agree.
But even Cryptic was given the choice hoping someone came up with a solution, or go another path that they knew how to go, thus allowing a game to actually be produced with a good focus.

See, games mostly fail when they lose a focus. Adding too many elements in without polishing what you have doesn't work.
Quality over Quantity.

[Gimmick]

I go back and forth on WoW. Some days, it is boring as heck, other days I really enjoy it. I quit WoW when I explored the last square centimeter of the available map prior to BC.

However, according to what Jack said at the webcast, it looks like you can always explore on your own in the end, finding new planets and resources...the heart of Star Trek.NO, the heart of Star Trek are/were the people and the ships, the interactions one can have, and the exploration they did as a group. It was hardly ever about resources or finding new planets.

He was talking of infinite planets to explore, according to the way they've designed things. This appeals to me, and looks a whole lot more promising than trying to get stuff that gives the most plusses, like WoW, CoH, or other MMOs.Okay, if they have infinite planets to explore, why not infinite tasks for multiple Departments of crewmembers on-board ships? The leap really cannot be that far.

"Oh, we have this magnificent customization and an engine that allows for new planets and missions to be built at a whim, and we can direct -at least- hundreds of thousands of players from a Starfleet hub, but we can't, for the life of us, figure out the technology, the sheer programming, necessary for interaction on a grand scale for a crew inside a starship!" Come, now.

[Ltfngr]

Gimmick, I hear ya.

What I really don't want to see is Thottbot/Allakazam sites. I don't want to see gold selling for Star Trek. I don't want resources tradeable except within a fleet.

What I want to see are dynamic missions. Ever-changing worlds and politics. Some days, the Romulans are your friends, the next your bitter enemies. Political, economic, military, or other kinds of crisises that can change the game month by month. I don't want to be able to go to a website and read a quest walk through on how to become a 'Q', like how Star Wars sites had a full walkthrough on how to become a Jedi.

Make the game rely on your actions, not rely on the fact you have $200 of disposable income in RL to plunk down for an influx of gold-pressed latinum.

[LordDave]

Okay, if they have infinite planets to explore, why not infinite tasks for multiple Departments of crewmembers on-board ships? The leap really cannot be that far.

Each mission is hand made. Well... mostly. Mini-games or whatever they do for players on ships must be hand made and vary wildly.
Computer generated planets are nothing more then random numbers being plugged together.

[Gimmick]

I mean, does -anyone- actually think that crafting of any kind would be an acceptable time-sink in a Star Trek MMO?Yes, actually, I do. And, I would. If you think about it, one of the best aspects of Star Trek, from about the fourth season of Next Generation on through the remainder of the series' (DS9, VOY, ENT, the movies), was the fact that, despite all the grand technology, people still put in time to learn to act, to weave, to play instruments, to build their bodies, etc. It's a part of the story, part of the mythology. I would get into that.
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________
Gimmick, I hear ya.

What I really don't want to see is Thottbot/Allakazam sites. I don't want to see gold selling for Star Trek. I don't want resources tradeable except within a fleet.

What I want to see are dynamic missions. Ever-changing worlds and politics. Some days, the Romulans are your friends, the next your bitter enemies. Political, economic, military, or other kinds of crisises that can change the game month by month. I don't want to be able to go to a website and read a quest walk through on how to become a 'Q', like how Star Wars sites had a full walkthrough on how to become a Jedi.

Make the game rely on your actions, not rely on the fact you have $200 of disposable income in RL to plunk down for an influx of gold-pressed latinum.Amen, a fellow brother of the Church of Star Trek. I'm there, too. I want a smart game, period. I really like how you think.

[Cryptic_Fan_101]

Geesh, all that just to criticize the graphics as "very cartoony" and make yet-another-request for player-crewed starships?

Look, I'll try to put this as delicately as I can: you're bound to be disappointed. It's a video game. It's not a holodeck. If you're hoping to be absolutely immersed in the most authentic Star Trek simulation ever conceived, keep dreaming. It's not going to happen.

[Deletham_Tomalak]

Dynamic diplomatic tie could be based on players actions inside each faction. Say too many players decided to screw the Romulans or Klingons and the next they fire on site and if players work to patch it up it gets better opens up trade routes, planets etc...

Trading in fleet only would really cut out those annoying as hell gold buyers in WoW who can't earn anything on their own though Thottbot can be a life saver sometimes...

[Gimmick]

Each mission is hand made. Well... mostly. Mini-games or whatever they do for players on ships must be hand made and vary wildly.
Computer generated planets are nothing more then random numbers being plugged together.That's not what Mr. Emmert said. He said all these random missions can happen, so there's infinite content. It's not that different from a mini-game, or a factual station within the game being made of the same stuff. I would venture to think the station is a LOT less complicated than generating whole systems, planets, and missions from scratch.

The problem I believe there is comes in making all those stations interact together. However, Cryptic has it relatively easy because they have the bases of randomly generated content and the ability to make mini-games. There's two corners of the triangle right there. Cryptic should now take the time to build the third corner. Look, they've come this far, why not take it the rest of the way? They have time, less than 3 years, Mr. Emmert said, so take the time and develop it; they're geniuses, let them figure it out and make it a reality.

[Gimmick]

Geesh, all that just to criticize the graphics as "very cartoony" and make yet-another-request for player-crewed starships?

Look, I'll try to put this as delicately as I can: you're bound to be disappointed. It's a video game. It's not a holodeck. If you're hoping to be absolutely immersed in the most authentic Star Trek simulation ever conceived, keep dreaming. It's not going to happen.You're a worse cynic than I am, CRYPTIC_FAN_101... a name change might be in order for you.
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________
Alright, time for me to be off to bed. Up at 5:45.

I'm glad I could throw a wrench into the works, and I hope some 'encouragement' toward Cryptic's staff will open up new horizons for them, and for us as well.

Good night, Starfleet.

[TheMasterpiece]

Too long of a post, honestly i tried, but its late and I just couldnt read it all. But 20 million people, i think thats overstating for ANY MMO. But yea, it will bring alot of people in.

I also saw your comments on the characters and everyone seems to agree. To me it ALMOST looks like a cel shaded type of graphics mixed with a slight slight tinge of anime in the hair style. I think though once textures are finalized and everything is built up and polished everything will look fine.

And to be honest, im really fine with the characters now.

[Deletham_Tomalak]

They just need some more detail added to them, make them look more alive but at the same time I want to be able to play this on a laptop (Which only have good graphics cards at best under $1600). It comes down to one question:

Whats more important: Graphics or Accessibility?

[LordDave]

That's not what Mr. Emmert said. He said all these random missions can happen, so there's infinite content. It's not that different from a mini-game, or a factual station within the game being made of the same stuff. I would venture to think the station is a LOT less complicated than generating whole systems, planets, and missions from scratch.

The problem I believe there is comes in making all those stations interact together. However, Cryptic has it relatively easy because they have the bases of randomly generated content and the ability to make mini-games. There's two corners of the triangle right there. Cryptic should now take the time to build the third corner. Look, they've come this far, why not take it the rest of the way? They have time, less than 3 years, Mr. Emmert said, so take the time and develop it; they're geniuses, let them figure it out and make it a reality.

Random missions for a general audience are one thing. But what about a single person with a single class?
Not so easy unless you constantly make up "Cure plague on xxx".

It's not that different from a mini-game, or a factual station within the game being made of the same stuff. I would venture to think the station is a LOT less complicated than generating whole systems, planets, and missions from scratch.

I'm sorry to say but you are wrong.
A planet is just a randomly generated bunch of stuff. Doesn't even have to make sense. Plug in some large, random number into an algorithm and out pops a planetary system.
Making a fully functional, interactive terminal that works, is fun to use without becoming a grind fest(think Puzzle Pirates) and has an easy learning curve is the challenge.
A planet is just an object.
A station is a fully interactive interface that requires the data to be fed to the other players, the ship, then the world. And each player at each station is doing this.

randomly generated content and the ability to make mini-games.
The randomly generated content, from what I understand, is planets and stars. Taking different sets of textures, objects, ect... and randomizing them together. Easy stuff to a computer programmer.
Mini-games are hard in that you have to lock the player's movements while allowing the world outside him to continue. Not particularly difficult, but then you have to make a mini-game that's fun. You can't randomize that because different mini-game elements don't go together. They have to be pre-made. And can you honestly make and justify 50-100 mini-games per class?
And can you really say that Tetris or jewels or pipe-line is fun when your almost forced to play it?

Yeah I want PC crews too in any form. But I trust Cryptic to know what can and can not be done at this time.

[Varrangian]

I want my player screwed ships!

[Heavensrun]

Yes, actually, I do. And, I would. If you think about it, one of the best aspects of Star Trek, from about the fourth season of Next Generation on through the remainder of the series' (DS9, VOY, ENT, the movies), was the fact that, despite all the grand technology, people still put in time to learn to act, to weave, to play instruments, to build their bodies, etc. It's a part of the story, part of the mythology. I would get into that.
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Amen, a fellow brother of the Church of Star Trek. I'm there, too. I want a smart game, period. I really like how you think.

Y'know, there's something ironic about someone who wants to show their respect to a philosophy of self-betterment by sitting in a chair and clicking a mouse over and over.

Yes, there are activities that could be incorperated into passing time on a ship that you aren't in charge of. However, knitting a new sweater isn't going to improve your characters' stats, and you're not likely to be able to get rewards equal to the time spent like in other MMOs. Dancing, acting, playing instruments, and bodybuilding, while interesting ways to pass time and socialize, are not "crafting". and weaving, while it would qualify as crafting in the literal sense, is not "crafting" in the typical MMO sense of things. If we're talking about crafting in an MMO perspective, we're talking about gathering some sort of in-game resource, transforming it into useful equipment, and then using it or selling/trading it to other players. I would suggest that pretty much everything about this runs contrary to the Federation lifestyle and philosophies, in which everything is pretty much shared freely and whatever is needed can be obtained without effort or cost.

You could probably finagle something similar in terms of gathering...I dunno, some kind of knowledge or experience, and developing the ability to "craft" better weapon systems, but then, why would those systems not become freely available for the rest of starfleet, once developed? It just doesn't quite gel. And if what you're "crafting" isn't practically valuable, You're not going to be able to market it, which means you can weave all the baskets you like, they're just going to take up space in the ship's hold. Or, more likely, not get made, which means that, as a time-sink, crafting falls rather short in this game relative to others.

As far as "gold" farmers are concerned, my advice is to get over it. If there is a resource in the game, someone will find a way to farm it, and someone that doesn't want to farm it -will- find a way to buy it. It's capitalism at work. And I hate it as much as you do, but it isn't going away, so I can only say learn to disregard it.

[VonTarpak]

lol 20 million players in a year. dood what did u smoke?

[k.mpok]

While that is a viable approach, it does run into some problems unique to multiplayer games - if you prefer to play with a PC crew, for example, but have a short time available to play in this session, you want to be guaranteed that you'll be able to hop in game, find a ship, have some fun, and then pop back off to go to work, or feed your kids, or whatever.

Cryptic aren't opposed to adding the feature in later, if they figure out how to make it fun - they just need to figure it out. :)
That is where the npc crew and RP shift changes come in. Also by having more players aboard your ship doing various things you have a larger pool of players to pull from when someone needs to beam back to the ship for what ever reason and /log.

I can't answer for the dev team, but...

In the world of MMOs, the people you are attempting to appeal to, and the variable playing times people have prevent full player crews except for a very, very small miniority of players.

I believe Cryptic does not want this to turn into a job to play for anyone. Many MMO guilds are. That's why the crew are NPCs that can be ordered around. It is hard enough for my WoW guild to get 6 people together for 4 hours on a Wednesday night. And we know each other in RL, let alone being strewn across the world in differing time zones.

I applaud you for wanting the player crews, and it would be a lot more immersive for role playing purposes, but the logistics would eliminate the game for 90% of the potential customer base.

As to a tutorial start, we have heard nothing from Cryptic if they are going to do that. They did do it for City of Heroes and City of Villains, however, and that makes me believe that is what is going to happen.

Also, you are severely overestimating the player potential. Star Wars Galaxy never hit 1 million subscribers. They weren't even close. I do not know what the appeal of Star Trek is over in China, who dwarfs the amount of players that are in the United States. WoW's numbers are coming primarily from China. Age of Conan's numbers are coming from Europe. The only comparison I can give is Star Wars, which is estimated 350k subscribers (and many of those have the Station Pass and thus count towards EQ/EQ2 numbers too and may not be very active on Star Wars).

They can go a similar route that Disney did with Pirates of the Caribbean MMO. They had ships which you could have PC crew members interact with things (cannons and boarding parties). Star Trek Online crews could take one step further and enclose the ship give it a Space ship skin with more interactive devices and you would have your PC crew.

The number of players today far outweigh the numbers of old. EQ/UO for example had lesser numbers but a larger portion of the MMO players (there was less MMO players back then). Also Star Trek Online IF done right can grab a large portion of the Trek fans which IMO out number the SW fans. Remember Star Trek was one of the first Sci-fi space style shows of its day and age, Star Wars came after (again once the fan base was larger just like in the beginning with MMOs).

Not counting books and comics.
The Star Wars films, (1977-2005 movies)
Star Trek franchise, (1966-1969 ToS; 70s-2000+ ToS rerun, TnG, DS9, movies, Voy, Ent)

I had fun in WoW up until end game. But I kept saying to everyone who reached 70: "Now you can start playing the game" Which, ironically, is the truth. Everyone tries to get to the max level as fast as possible then they find out how much it sucks.

As for prouncing around the ship: That implies there's something to do on the ship. For each person you'd have to create enough things to do dynamically that, at any given time, you will have a goal. Mostly short term and some long term.
Lots of people have good ideas, but they are in the complexity of a game in and of itself.

That is where mini-games and RP community comes in. A large part of the movies/series of ST was crew interaction. As it stands (from what I saw from the preview clip) there is little to no interaction between PCs. Isn't this suppose to be an MMO, let the players interact I say. I for one do not consider 20 ship PCs floating around a single Borg Cube in combat as PC interaction. Even if its nothing but a few things you do during battle/away missions and the rest is just player made RP content in the beginning.


Why chase away fans that do not want to be Captains or pilot a ship but would rather interact with other players.

[KO_Gilligan]

This is a very unique thread about the game being 100 Billion Captains and making Cryptic change their minds about what has already been planned, with a cool twist:
20 MILLION PLAYERS WILL BE ON SOON AFTER LAUNCH

[onesoul1982]

Geesh, all that just to criticize the graphics as "very cartoony" and make yet-another-request for player-crewed starships?

Look, I'll try to put this as delicately as I can: you're bound to be disappointed. It's a video game. It's not a holodeck. If you're hoping to be absolutely immersed in the most authentic Star Trek simulation ever conceived, keep dreaming. It's not going to happen.


thank you, that's all I can say. I 100% agree with you there. I'm glad you said it,otherwise I was going to.

[LordDave]

This is a very unique thread about the game being 100 Billion Captains and making Cryptic change their minds about what has already been planned, with a cool twist:
20 MILLION PLAYERS WILL BE ON SOON AFTER LAUNCH

Where the debate was beaten to death, resurrected, beaten again, and eventually it faded to a dim whisper.

[Gimmick]

Too long of a post, honestly i tried, but its late and I just couldnt read it all.Well, I guess some of my posts are simply not for the faint of heart, hehe. Funny thing is, I've written posts three and more times bigger than that one without blinking.

But 20 million people, i think thats overstating for ANY MMO. But yea, it will bring alot of people in.We shall see.

I also saw your comments on the characters and everyone seems to agree. To me it ALMOST looks like a cel shaded type of graphics mixed with a slight slight tinge of anime in the hair style. I think though once textures are finalized and everything is built up and polished everything will look fine.

And to be honest, im really fine with the characters now.I repeat, though, I understand these are pre-beta work on the characters.
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Random missions for a general audience are one thing. But what about a single person with a single class?
Not so easy unless you constantly make up "Cure plague on xxx".Okay, you didn't read the entire post, or it was too late for you to catch onto it, etc. Not every task would be involved specifically with that characters class, or driven specifically by their primary game aspect -I know what it is, people don't understand the idea of aspects, and I'm not telling anyone for when I go to build my own MMO- so it's alright that you don't get it.

Quote:
It's not that different from a mini-game, or a factual station within the game being made of the same stuff. I would venture to think the station is a LOT less complicated than generating whole systems, planets, and missions from scratch.

I'm sorry to say but you are wrong.
A planet is just a randomly generated bunch of stuff. Doesn't even have to make sense. Plug in some large, random number into an algorithm and out pops a planetary system.
Making a fully functional, interactive terminal that works, is fun to use without becoming a grind fest(think Puzzle Pirates) and has an easy learning curve is the challenge.
A planet is just an object.
A station is a fully interactive interface that requires the data to be fed to the other players, the ship, then the world. And each player at each station is doing this.Okay, fine. Cryptic, get to work.

Yeah I want PC crews too in any form. But I trust Cryptic to know what can and can not be done at this time. It's not enough.
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Wow, I actually got through all that, and I still have 35 minutes to get ready for work. Look, it's going to take more work, whether it's a little or a lot, but it will be worth it if Cryptic does it...

"If you build it, they will come..."

[LordDave]

Okay, you didn't read the entire post, or it was too late for you to catch onto it, etc. Not every task would be involved specifically with that characters class, or driven specifically by their primary game aspect -I know what it is, people don't understand the idea of aspects, and I'm not telling anyone for when I go to build my own MMO- so it's alright that you don't get it.

No no, I understand aspects. Really the design hurdle, aside from technologically, is finding something for a science guy to do. Yes some missions won't involve science, but does that mean that your science NPC won't exist? Just so that you can play that part?
And if that's the case, then how will his specific class abilities help any? Does his ship get a boost to scanning? Does he have a special scan action that scans better then most? Will he, ultimately, end up flying around in his ship with his NPC guys as captain anyway? Is pressing the scan button fun?
(Ok, ok, I'm looking at entertainers in SWG and wondering that too)


Okay, fine. Cryptic, get to work.

They are working. But they're working on what they know they can do in the time they have, not on what they're not sure they can do in the time they have. Hell, the whole company is split between STO and Champions Online. Maybe, just maybe, when Champs is done, they'll move that team to STO to work on Player Crews.


It's not enough.

That's kinda sad when you can't trust professionals.
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Wow, I actually got through all that, and I still have 35 minutes to get ready for work. Look, it's going to take more work, whether it's a little or a lot, but it will be worth it if Cryptic does it...

"If you build it, they will come..."
No arguments there. It will take more work. Now ask yourself this:
If the development team is given a limit of say... 3 years to get it out, but to develop PC crews, they estimate it'll take 4 years, what should be done?

[Gimmick]

Okay, 10 minutes...

No no, I understand aspects. Really the design hurdle, aside from technologically, is finding something for a science guy to do.I understand what you're saying, here, but what would it take to get Mike and Denise Okuda to sit down and develop those tasks?

Yes some missions won't involve science, but does that mean that your science NPC won't exist? Just so that you can play that part?What does this have to do with NPCs? I'm just talking about the specific characters. Or, do you mean when the player is not logged in? In that case, yes the NPC takes over, just like in Next Gen when someone like Data leaves their post for another task, someone else is called to the bridge to take over.

And if that's the case, then how will his specific class abilities help any? Does his ship get a boost to scanning? Does he have a special scan action that scans better then most? Will he, ultimately, end up flying around in his ship with his NPC guys as captain anyway? Is pressing the scan button fun?
(Ok, ok, I'm looking at entertainers in SWG and wondering that too)Yes to all but pressing the scan button being fun... that just wouldn't be fun for anyone, hehe. Characters who improve in their skills -and, as Mr. Emmert said, captains come from all manner of backgrounds- will be able to help improve their crewmates abilities and the survivability of their ship and away missions, as well. Like every other MMO in existence, the use of skill/talent trees comes into play, here. No time to explain right now, though you probably already catch my meaning.

They are working. But they're working on what they know they can do in the time they have, not on what they're not sure they can do in the time they have. Hell, the whole company is split between STO and Champions Online. Maybe, just maybe, when Champs is done, they'll move that team to STO to work on Player Crews.I understand everyone is working, and I understand time constraints in business, etc., but I feel they need to take extra time with this. Think of all the aspects of their Champions engine they will not be able to use with STO because STO is NOT a superhero game; well, all of that loss needs to be made up somewhere, right?

No arguments there. It will take more work. Now ask yourself this:
If the development team is given a limit of say... 3 years to get it out, but to develop PC crews, they estimate it'll take 4 years, what should be done?Oh, definitely take the extra year. In the end it will be worth it. If you rush a product out and ignore what a good size part of the community have been telling you, your game is going to flop. Yes, many folks couldn't care less if there are PC crews or not, and some others prefer NPC crews, but the greater majority, to my eyes, want to see PC crews and, like someone else said earlier in this thread, this is an MMO, right, a social game?
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I've said it before, but here it is again... Star Trek is about quality, and if the right manner of quality, to meet the stringent expectations of the Star Trek fan base, are not met, if that quality is not placed in the game, the Star Trek fan base will wait for someone else to remake the MMO, like Bioware is doing with Star Wars (at least, I think it's Bioware).

Here's something I haven't said yet in this thread... pretty pictures without good stories will flop in a game that requires, as part of its canon, great stories. I would rather have ugly backdrops and characters and wonderful story opportunities than the most beautiful spectacle yet placed on the market with a constant grind fest. I'm sorry, I got WoW out of my blood over a year ago... I'm not ready for a new transfusion of that crap, yet.

Alright, that's time. See y'all this afternoon.

[vanlore]

Y'know, there's something ironic about someone who wants to show their respect to a philosophy of self-betterment by sitting in a chair and clicking a mouse over and over.

Yes, there are activities that could be incorperated into passing time on a ship that you aren't in charge of. However, knitting a new sweater isn't going to improve your characters' stats, and you're not likely to be able to get rewards equal to the time spent like in other MMOs. Dancing, acting, playing instruments, and bodybuilding, while interesting ways to pass time and socialize, are not "crafting". and weaving, while it would qualify as crafting in the literal sense, is not "crafting" in the typical MMO sense of things. If we're talking about crafting in an MMO perspective, we're talking about gathering some sort of in-game resource, transforming it into useful equipment, and then using it or selling/trading it to other players. I would suggest that pretty much everything about this runs contrary to the Federation lifestyle and philosophies, in which everything is pretty much shared freely and whatever is needed can be obtained without effort or cost.

You could probably finagle something similar in terms of gathering...I dunno, some kind of knowledge or experience, and developing the ability to "craft" better weapon systems, but then, why would those systems not become freely available for the rest of starfleet, once developed? It just doesn't quite gel. And if what you're "crafting" isn't practically valuable, You're not going to be able to market it, which means you can weave all the baskets you like, they're just going to take up space in the ship's hold. Or, more likely, not get made, which means that, as a time-sink, crafting falls rather short in this game relative to others.

As far as "gold" farmers are concerned, my advice is to get over it. If there is a resource in the game, someone will find a way to farm it, and someone that doesn't want to farm it -will- find a way to buy it. It's capitalism at work. And I hate it as much as you do, but it isn't going away, so I can only say learn to disregard it.

I totally Agree with this post.

And i think people should stop trying to make this game into another wow... There is already a ton of games out there like this for you... Let us trek people have at least one MMO game.. go play your wow if you want to turn it into something of that.

Cryptic Keep up the good work.. I love everything your doing :)