The Loading Screen? and zones?

[Nasedo]

so i been thinking and watch the webshow over and over again and it seems like Space is going to be huge!!!! and there's zone's? now?

so i can't help to think that i'll be on my ship at warp 6 heading to a mission and every few mins i hit a loading screen that would be really annoying

along with beaming to a planet (loading screen) or even beaming over to another ship to take it over or kill the crew...

how many annoying loading screen will there be?

i believe jack said there are zones in this game... wasn't zone's so back in EQ?

[Varrangian]

so i been thinking and watch the webshow over and over again and it seems like Space is going to be huge!!!! and there's zone's? now?

so i can't help to think that i'll be on my ship at warp 6 heading to a mission and every few mins i hit a loading screen that would be really annoying

along with beaming to a planet (loading screen) or even beaming over to another ship to take it over or kill the crew...

how many annoying loading screen will there be?

i believe jack said there are zones in this game... wasn't zone's so back in EQ?

I would imagine that "zones" will be anything where you engage wrap speed. or beam down. It is a natural break and a perfect time to do the loading.

[Nasedo]

I would imagine that "zones" will be anything where you engage wrap speed. or beam down. It is a natural break and a perfect time to do the loading.

yea but with the tech we have these's days we still have zones?.

look at wow. they have a very few zones...and wow is years old.. dont tell me we havent found a way pass that...

i can see it now.... lets beam over to the klingon's ship!! and take them over... (beam) 5 mins later your over there...it just.. doesnt seem star trekie like.. you know?

[Aterlatus]

Even worse, the Klingons have a more powerful machine than you so by the time you've finished loading they've already pillaged your ship and headed home for tea. :p

[Nasedo]

Even worse, the Klingons have a more powerful machine than you so by the time you've finished loading they've already pillaged your ship and headed home for tea. :p

oh yea by fair... the loading screen would screw everything up....
unless this new engine is design to not have any zone's.. but im not sure what are your thoughts

will STO be force to Zone every 5 mins? or is these's new engine have no zoneing in this game?

[Sinclair]

I bet zones can be handled in the warping process. We will zone while warping and so wont notice the transition. I'm thinking about zones in EVE right now, which are broken up by jump gates. If that gate was not there and I was just warping, I would not know I crossed a server zone boundary.

[Nasedo]

I bet zones can be handled in the warping process. We will zone while warping and so wont notice the transition. I'm thinking about zones in EVE right now, which are broken up by jump gates. If that gate was not there and I was just warping, I would not know I crossed a server zone boundary.

so your saying when we travel we wont even know we are zoneing? at all? so we would be zoneing but we wont know we are?

what about beaming down to a planet? or over to a ship??

[Ghrenn]

I hate zones.

Age of Conan made my brain hurt with all the zoning.

[Nasedo]

I hate zones.

Age of Conan made my brain hurt with all the zoning.

will thats what im trying to find out... zone take up time. and since STO is going to be BIG!!!! i dont want to zone every min...so i guess no one knows this question :(

[Ghrenn]

will thats what im trying to find out... zone take up time. and since STO is going to be BIG!!!! i dont want to zone every min...so i guess no one knows this question :(

I don't know the answer...but I will try to find it, just for you.:)

[USS_Parallax]

There should be soft loads, aka it loads as you walk without you actually noticing. I'd imagine that it's possible you'd have to load for a bit after using a transwarp hub to get to a different area.

[Aterlatus]

Generally, you don't pick out your own route when you're travelling at warp speed. Fancy doodads make minute adjustments to make sure you don't hit anything, but you're travelling way too fast for any human (or alien) to react to anything in your path.

For that reason, I'd expect it to be a case of picking where you want to go and then getting a single loading screen while you travel there.

There's plenty of other ways for it to be done. Everyone knows WoW has very few zones and everything is loaded on the fly when you get close to it. SWG had an interesting way to handle it whereby if you travelled there yourself, no loading screens but if you used the big transport network then you got a loading screen (but got there much faster). I'm sure Cryptic will do us proud :)

[Nasedo]

Generally, you don't pick out your own route when you're travelling at warp speed. Fancy doodads make minute adjustments to make sure you don't hit anything, but you're travelling way too fast for any human (or alien) to react to anything in your path.

For that reason, I'd expect it to be a case of picking where you want to go and then getting a single loading screen while you travel there.

There's plenty of other ways for it to be done. Everyone knows WoW has very few zones and everything is loaded on the fly when you get close to it. SWG had an interesting way to handle it whereby if you travelled there yourself, no loading screens but if you used the big transport network then you got a loading screen (but got there much faster). I'm sure Cryptic will do us proud :)

i dont want non of this loading screen crap..

i want to pick where i want to go and hit WARP!! SPEED!! ..then leave the bridge and go do some stuff for 10 mins till i get there then come on back to the bridge and see everything is ok and im where i want to be

[Aterlatus]

And I wouldn't want to have to take 10 minutes break if a friend on the other side of the quadrant needed a hand with something. There's always gonna be some kind of near-instant travel which is inevitably gonna involve a loading screen, regardless of the game.

[Nasedo]

And I wouldn't want to have to take 10 minutes break if a friend on the other side of the quadrant needed a hand with something. There's always gonna be some kind of near-instant travel which is inevitably gonna involve a loading screen, regardless of the game.

ok
but how long would travel be? there's got to be some wait?

maybe i'll use warp 1 and take 10 to 20 mins to get to the far reach's of space! ?

[Aterlatus]

Go for it, as long as I can have warp 10. I always wanted to be omnipotent :D

[armozel]

Considering the look and feel. I think zoning will be significantly reduced compared to other MMOs. Personally, I'm hoping the only real zoning will be system to system like it is in EVE online.

[Nasedo]

Considering the look and feel. I think zoning will be significantly reduced compared to other MMOs. Personally, I'm hoping the only real zoning will be system to system like it is in EVE online.

unless they have the ability to make STO have no zones at all ...only real zoneing you need is when you login and when you beam down....
or the loading screen is really very fast that would only take 5 sec's or you would zone but you wont even know it (thats how fast it is)

[Reinkaos]

Generally, you don't pick out your own route when you're travelling at warp speed. Fancy doodads make minute adjustments to make sure you don't hit anything, but you're travelling way too fast for any human (or alien) to react to anything in your path.

For that reason, I'd expect it to be a case of picking where you want to go and then getting a single loading screen while you travel there.

There's plenty of other ways for it to be done. Everyone knows WoW has very few zones and everything is loaded on the fly when you get close to it. SWG had an interesting way to handle it whereby if you travelled there yourself, no loading screens but if you used the big transport network then you got a loading screen (but got there much faster). I'm sure Cryptic will do us proud :)

Ships make fairly drastic maneuvers during warp all the time, firing at eachother, turning/adjusting and such.. so think, for the sake of playability, they let us do the same. They should have "soft" loads like in WoW when you near a new area.

Loading screens should be for transwarp hubs (like the Dark Portal in WoW) I think :)

[Reinkaos]

Go for it, as long as I can have warp 10. I always wanted to be omnipotent :D

Be careful you don't have lizards with your helmsman :p

[Reinkaos]

i dont want non of this loading screen crap..

i want to pick where i want to go and hit WARP!! SPEED!! ..then leave the bridge and go do some stuff for 10 mins till i get there then come on back to the bridge and see everything is ok and im where i want to be

Will that even be possible? assuming you mean in the game and not real life lol. But I mean, will we be able to leave the 3rd-person behind-the-ship viewpoint and move to ship interiors at will?

[Loekii]

I am sure I will get something thrown at me - perhaps that final copy of the PC Gamer - but I am still not understanding the whole 'loading screen over cinematic' thing.

If I understand it correctly, in Non-Techi speak, you computer just accesses the 'loading screen' file, any time its prompted to load a zone.

So why could it not simply access a 'Cinematic' file instead. A file is a file, in this case, yes?

Now, that being the case, is the process different for say, loading from Sector view to 3D space view, and visa versa? If it is, would it not be possible to select different cinematics simply based upon 'what type of transition' is occuring?

It is my understanding that you cannot get specfiic about it, but I am wondering if you can be general about it.

Just trying to look for some sort of improvement over the Loading screen. Again, I give them props for the semi-animated screen, but I think that novalty will become stale after the first week or 700th time seeing it. Which ever comes first.

[Tamgros]

I am sure I will get something thrown at me - perhaps that final copy of the PC Gamer - but I am still not understanding the whole 'loading screen over cinematic' thing.

If I understand it correctly, in Non-Techi speak, you computer just accesses the 'loading screen' file, any time its prompted to load a zone.

So why could it not simply access a 'Cinematic' file instead. A file is a file, in this case, yes?

Now, that being the case, is the process different for say, loading from Sector view to 3D space view, and visa versa? If it is, would it not be possible to select different cinematics simply based upon 'what type of transition' is occuring?

It is my understanding that you cannot get specfiic about it, but I am wondering if you can be general about it.

Just trying to look for some sort of improvement over the Loading screen. Again, I give them props for the semi-animated screen, but I think that novalty will become stale after the first week or 700th time seeing it. Which ever comes first.


I was kind of wondering this (I'm also wondering why you picked this 21 day old thread when there are plenty others, but that's neither here nor there :p).

What is preventing them from bringing up something as simple as that windows star screen movement screen saver every time we go in/out of warp (Kinda like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAmkR5UxEV8&feature=related)but with stars and the stars don't just come from the center)? Even something that simple is trekkie enough and it surely doesn't take much to do it.

During beaming up/down you could just have some graphic where the whole screen looks like it is transporting. They already have a graphic once you go in and out of the transitions, so all it would really take is something easy like I just described to make you feel like you are just transitioning to a new mode of travel, and not going through a load screen/instance.

Anyone know?

[Loekii]

(I'm also wondering why you picked this 21 day old thread when there are plenty others, but that's neither here nor there :p).

It was the only thread that showed up on the forum search, and I did not want to post off-topic in another thread, or just start a new thread about.

[Loekii]

So are we limited to the Loading screens in STO, based on how it is set up?

[blujester]

So are we limited to the Loading screens in STO, based on how it is set up?

Short answer...we don't know for sure. At present the demos we've seen have load screens that are static. Is that the way it will be at launch? Dunno. No one does but the devs and they ain't talkin. I agree with Tam that they should use a whooosh screen at warp or something equal as well as a fizzzzz screen for transport but we just don't know if that's gonna happen or not. We do know traveling long distance will be on an overmap that has no loads between point A to point B. But you will (at present) get a screen before dropping out of warp into a zone. And probably a screen when going to warp from a zone. But the real thing here is .. We just don't know yet.


Bj

[Loekii]

I remember Goz explaining how it worked in other games, where the Loading Screen was triggered simply by the transition, and that the reasons they are just so random, was that the system doesn't know 'Where you are going' until after it has loaded.

I am wondering if it would be possible to set up a system that can at least recognize the 'type of transition' you are making:

3D Space to Sector space
Sector Space to 3D Space
3D space to Ground
Ground to 3D
Ground room to ground room


If that is possible, then perhaps they could load little cinematic to match up to the actual transition type (so you are always seeing the same 'jumping to warp' cinematic when you load from 3d to Sector space, or see a 'transporter shimmer' when going from 3d to ground, etc). IT would be the same generic cinematic each time you do the same transition (rather than being specialized to the specific zone you are in).

[jblancato]

The way it works now, every time you bring up a new map, there's a short loading time. Short is in the range of 30 seconds or so. This is usually when you warp into an area, or beam down to a planet. Once you're in a map, there's no loading going on, and our maps are pretty big.


So why could it not simply access a 'Cinematic' file instead. A file is a file, in this case, yes?

...

Just trying to look for some sort of improvement over the Loading screen. Again, I give them props for the semi-animated screen, but I think that novalty will become stale after the first week or 700th time seeing it. Which ever comes first.


Two-fold reason:
1) Doing anything that's especially processor or hard drive intensive would slow down loading in general. Bringing up a cinematic is both of those things. If you look, modern games are doing more interesting things with loading screens (see the latest FIFA game on the PS3) but ...
2) I have a friend who is an expert on videogame patents, and apparently people have these really weird patents on stuff you can do with loading screens. It's why you can't play Peggle while you're loading a new level in another game. This makes my heart sad.

[Tamgros]

The way it works now, every time you bring up a new map, there's a short loading time. Short is in the range of 30 seconds or so.

That's not so bad. And your point about adding this feature increasing the total loading time is a good one. I'd rather spend 25ish seconds looking at a loading screen that potentially has useful info (text), than 40 seconds watching a standard cinematic. That would get old quick.

But in any event. I'm going to get a SSD RAID set up to try to reduce that to more like 5 seconds. Seriously, that's going to be fun :)

[Loekii]

That's not so bad. And your point about adding this feature increasing the total loading time is a good one. I'd rather spend 25ish seconds looking at a loading screen that potentially has useful info (text), than 40 seconds watching a standard cinematic. That would get old quick.

But in any event. I'm going to get a SSD RAID set up to try to reduce that to more like 5 seconds. Seriously, that's going to be fun :)

Let us know if the Raid makes a difference.

I agree. If I had the choice of 25 second loading screens of a 25 second cinemeatic, i would go with the cinematic.

However, if having a cinematic turns the 25 seconds into 50 seconds, I will go with the loading screen.

I personally like the Loading screen I saw in the gameplay videos, and just wanted to make sure that there is not a better option.

[fractaleye]

I also would rather have a 25-30 sec timer without a cinematic. I'm wondering if ST:O will have humorous phrases like Eve does with it's session timers. (Example: you join a fleet/group, and try to jump or undock before the 30 sec timer is up, you get the message 'Hold on, I'm still organizing the fleet. I didn't think smack talk would hold me up this long' or some such.)

But, then again, that's probably a different way then ST:O will do session timers. I just like the little messages I get in Eve while trying to do something during a session timer.

[Ruthless]

Will that even be possible? assuming you mean in the game and not real life lol. But I mean, will we be able to leave the 3rd-person behind-the-ship viewpoint and move to ship interiors at will?

I would also like to know if you can leave the 3rd-person behind-the-ship viewpoint and move to the ships interior at will. That would be nice if you could.

Is the space combat always in 3rd-person view as well? It would be nice to see the inside of the ship when in space combat, just for fun.

[Loekii]

I would also like to know if you can leave the 3rd-person behind-the-ship viewpoint and move to the ships interior at will. That would be nice if you could.

Is the space combat always in 3rd-person view as well? It would be nice to see the inside of the ship when in space combat, just for fun.

Well *personal* ship interiors wont be implemented until after Launch, but I would imagine that when they are added, things will work on an 'autopilot' sense.

The limited view from 'interior view', would put people at a disadvantage.

[robgomm]

Yeah if we're going to have loading screens that's fine, but please make them interesting. Maybe intersting pictures and schematics of various ships, characters etc. Maybe funny quotes from series and films, maybe an animated loading screen of some kind. Anything except a screen that just says loading, because that would be rubbish.

[Mozcol]

Looks like I'm a lone ranger on this topic haha! Its a loading screen, I really don't care if the screen goes blank with a basic loading bar.

[DanSeale]

Looks like I'm a lone ranger on this topic haha! Its a loading screen, I really don't care if the screen goes blank with a basic loading bar.

it's a loading screen .... the simpler .... the faster ..... the better!

( okie ... maybe one or two that kinda cool .. but that's fine )

[Tamgros]

I would also like to know if you can leave the 3rd-person behind-the-ship viewpoint and move to the ships interior at will. That would be nice if you could.

Is the space combat always in 3rd-person view as well? It would be nice to see the inside of the ship when in space combat, just for fun.
You can zoom up all the way, effectively making your computer monitor the view screen.

They found that having a bridge view was just too restricting, which makes sense. Why make all these different sensors and grd maps when you can just display everything on screen and look at your ship 3rd person?

That being said, I think they should add a bridge view once they get interiors (said to be after launch). That would be nice for cruising, I suppose.

[Zepath]

Guys ... when you change locations, there's a lot of things the system has to do...


change chat channels
unload graphics (models/textures)
load graphics (models/textures)
do instance checks
(if needed) create a server side instance
(if instances exist) select which one to put you in
move you to that instance (which actually might hand you off to another box)
let all the other clients in the area know you're there
have the other clients load your ship's look/configuration/information
Download any unique assets to your client from the server.


And about a bazillion other things that wouldn't make sense to most people. They go with the static screen because;


it is the least amount of demand on your PC
it allows them to share hints / info
it allows them to set the atmosphere / theme
it is the cheapest real-estate on your PC (videos take a lot of drive space)
they can control how long a static screen is up (transitions require variable amounts of time).


And as Rekhan explained, every time someone in this industry comes up with something different, they copyright it ... unfortunately you don't have to have matching code ... "look and feel" is sufficient for software copyrights.

[Falin]

The way it works now, every time you bring up a new map, there's a short loading time. Short is in the range of 30 seconds or so. This is usually when you warp into an area, or beam down to a planet. Once you're in a map, there's no loading going on, and our maps are pretty big.
.

I'd rather not look at loading screens, the gaming trend is to get rid of them and go seemless transistions. that's to say preloading the direction your going, this makes sense, is better for gameplay and immersion.

so please can we lose the antiquated loading screens? come on now this is a PC game, not a console game, PC's can handle preloaing and it's the 21st century now, get with the times :D

[knightofhyrule730]

I'd rather not look at loading screens, the gaming trend is to get rid of them and go seemless transistions. that's to dsay preloading the direction your going, this makes sense, is betetr fro gameplay and immrsion.

so pleadese can we lose the antiquated loading screens?

and replace them with what, exactly? how about just a completely black (or whatever your favorite color) screen. thats really the only other option.

[rogerwroten]

That's not so bad. And your point about adding this feature increasing the total loading time is a good one. I'd rather spend 25ish seconds looking at a loading screen that potentially has useful info (text), than 40 seconds watching a standard cinematic. That would get old quick.

But in any event. I'm going to get a SSD RAID set up to try to reduce that to more like 5 seconds. Seriously, that's going to be fun :)

Let us know if the Raid makes a difference.

I agree. If I had the choice of 25 second loading screens of a 25 second cinemeatic, i would go with the cinematic.

However, if having a cinematic turns the 25 seconds into 50 seconds, I will go with the loading screen.

I personally like the Loading screen I saw in the gameplay videos, and just wanted to make sure that there is not a better option.

Seriously? You guys are OK with a 30 second loading screen? Good Grief! That seems like a very long time to me. Try a little experiment... Just stare at your screen for 30 seconds. (And time it so you know for sure it is 30 seconds) And then think about that in game where you are wanting to get somewhere/do something. It will seem even longer. I have yet to play an MMO with loading screens that long. (Except for the initial game loading)

[Vorgse]

I'm still confused about warping. In the video it's said that you only got to the sector map at "like warp 9.8, or 9.9" so what doyou see when you're at cruising speed, warp 5 or 6?

[DanSeale]

Guys ... when you change locations, there's a lot of things the system has to do...


change chat channels
unload graphics (models/textures)
load graphics (models/textures)
do instance checks
(if needed) create a server side instance
(if instances exist) select which one to put you in
move you to that instance (which actually might hand you off to another box)
let all the other clients in the area know you're there
have the other clients load your ship's look/configuration/information
Download any unique assets to your client from the server.


And about a bazillion other things that wouldn't make sense to most people. They go with the static screen because;


it is the least amount of demand on your PC
it allows them to share hints / info
it allows them to set the atmosphere / theme
it is the cheapest real-estate on your PC (videos take a lot of drive space)
they can control how long a static screen is up (transitions require variable amounts of time).


And as Rekhan explained, every time someone in this industry comes up with something different, they copyright it ... unfortunately you don't have to have matching code ... "look and feel" is sufficient for software copyrights.

shhhhh

don't get all technical and start bringing up actual facts !

:eek:

We want it done in 10 seconds or less ! If we need to go some where we just "point and click" right ?

RIGHT ?

????

NO ?

man ... I bet the Devs wish it really was that easy !


I guess my point was (and still is) ... we don't have to have a major production just for loading screens.

okie . maybe something a little more than a big full screen shot of Rekhans avatar would be nice !

:D

[Zepath]

I'd rather not look at loading screens, the gaming trend is to get rid of them and go seemless transistions. that's to say preloading the direction your going, this makes sense, is better for gameplay and immersion.

so please can we lose the antiquated loading screens? come on now this is a PC game, not a console game, PC's can handle preloaing and it's the 21st century now, get with the times :D

When there's 1000s of options (which there will be in this game) ... you can't pre-load anything. You have to wait for them to tell you what content they want, and then load it.

[Tamgros]

Seriously? You guys are OK with a 30 second loading screen? Good Grief! That seems like a very long time to me. Try a little experiment... Just stare at your screen for 30 seconds. (And time it so you know for sure it is 30 seconds) And then think about that in game where you are wanting to get somewhere/do something. It will seem even longer. I have yet to play an MMO with loading screens that long. (Except for the initial game loading)
Have you seen the demo? Because most of us have, it's on Youtube. We've seen how long it takes. It really doesn't seem all that long, and that's with those of us geeked to see the next thing, not just relaxing while playing.

I actually think Rekhan was just kind of underpromising, and saying a high number. Hopefully they can 'over deliver' and give us somewhat short load times.

And I seriously do plan to get a SSD RAID setup, so 30 seconds of loading will never happen, even at boot up :p

I'm still confused about warping. In the video it's said that you only got to the sector map at "like warp 9.8, or 9.9" so what doyou see when you're at cruising speed, warp 5 or 6?

I think you missheard. He didn't say only at that speed, he was just giving examples of big numbers, probably to make it sound exciting. The Sector space map is where you'll be going at warp, any warp speed.

[Zepath]

Seriously? You guys are OK with a 30 second loading screen? Good Grief! That seems like a very long time to me. Try a little experiment... Just stare at your screen for 30 seconds. (And time it so you know for sure it is 30 seconds) And then think about that in game where you are wanting to get somewhere/do something. It will seem even longer. I have yet to play an MMO with loading screens that long. (Except for the initial game loading)

I don't expect them to take 30 seconds. If they do take 30 seconds I'll be surprised .... and at 30s, if we have to see a lot of em, this game will lose a lot of subscribers.

So one or the other will have to give, and Cryptic knows that. Either the load times will have to be short, or there will have to be very few.

Think about it ... if you have to wait 30 sec to get to where your mission requires, fight off some ships, wait 30s to beam down, do your mission on the planet, then wait 30s to beam back aboard your ship .... :(

I just don't see people putting us with that. So they will work it out.

You gotta remember ... I'm the guy that hates instances period ... I'm not taking Cryptic's side here or making excuses ... I'm just being objective.

[Avenger_Dragon]

Considering the average commercial is 25-30 seconds because that is the limit of the average human's ability to tolerate an annoyance and any longer the channel gets switched.

30 seconds is may not be long, but it's definitely not short. And how much is the "or so"? is it somewhere between 25 and 35 seconds or 30 and 40 seconds? that could easily be almost a minute. A lot of people get bored fast with loading times like this If they happen frequently, say once every ten minutes. Traveling will be a fact of life with load times, that is inevitable. But what about questing with multi-location quests? it was often heralded that episodes will often not take place in the same area, and involving travel. Episodes that will require a lot of "go here, go there, beam down, beam up, go over there, beam down again, beam back up" will get old fast with load times of 30 seconds.

Seriously, take a clock and see how long 30 seconds is while you do nothing. and imagine being forced to do that when you move to different rooms.

The loading times can be cut down with more PC side elements instead of loading everything off the server. It's one thing that made eve so fast (average 4 second transition for me) was because there was almost nothing to load, and most elements were based on my HDD with the enhanced-graphics patch instead of the server. Plus there was never that much to load

And chances are it takes longer than 30 seconds to read this and most people should have some irritation for having to take so long to read this post when they could have moved on to the next post already.

[Zepath]

Eve's graphic assets are significantly minor compared to most MMORPGs. That helps them a lot wth their transition times and is a key to their very nice, almost, seamless experience

And STO likely won't be downloading assets from the servers ... that will be on your PC .... but when you're loading, initializing, and staging for render, 400+ MBs of 3D models and textures, it takes time.

[Vorgse]

I think you missheard. He didn't say only at that speed, he was just giving examples of big numbers, probably to make it sound exciting. The Sector space map is where you'll be going at warp, any warp speed.

Then my follow up question, involving the transition from the sector map to the system map, if the sector map i up whenever you're at warp what happens if you drop out of warp in the void, no where near any star system or any other POI?

[Falin]

When there's 1000s of options (which there will be in this game) ... you can't pre-load anything. You have to wait for them to tell you what content they want, and then load it.

well this also ties into the flawed multiple instancing crud they're making. SErver and game tech has advanced a long way, there's no reason to have space cut into thousands of intances of a mear 100-200 people.

remove the instancing crud, add seemless transistions and the game would be on the right path to success as a ST game.

[Zepath]

well this also ties into the flawed multiple instancing crud they're making. SErver and game tech has advanced a long way, there's no reason to have space cut into thousands of intances of a mear 100-200 people.

remove the instancing crud, add seemless transistions and the game would be on the right path to success as a ST game.

To quote Zinc in one of the videos: "We have an 8 year old engine ...."

What else is there to say?

I'm sure they have upgraded as they have gone along, but the skeleton is still 8 year old technology / concepts.

[Vorgse]

To quote Zinc in one of the videos: "We have an 8 year old engine ...."

What else is there to say?

I'm sure they have upgraded as they have gone along, but the skeleton is still 8 year old technology / concepts.

Which is sad that developers have to do that. You'd think that with Video gaming more consistently being the highest grossing form of entertainment in the US gaming companies would see more money for R&D and production costs.

[Zepath]

Which is sad that developers have to do that. You'd think that with Video gaming more consistently being the highest grossing form of entertainment in the US gaming companies would see more money for R&D and production costs.

They don't do it for cost ... they do it for development speed and asset reuse.

[LordDave]

I'd rather not look at loading screens, the gaming trend is to get rid of them and go seemless transistions. that's to say preloading the direction your going, this makes sense, is better for gameplay and immersion.

so please can we lose the antiquated loading screens? come on now this is a PC game, not a console game, PC's can handle preloaing and it's the 21st century now, get with the times :D

Ohhh... ha ha ha ha.... That's funny....

Do you know what games have seemless transitions?(except for Travel between continents) World of Warcraft. EVE online. (Those are two I know of for a fact).
Do you know WHY?
Because in both of those games, the amount of art per transition is very similar. Each zone blends from one art to another seemlessly, keeping the same sky, similar monsters, ect... For EVE it's even simpler since it's just a few floating objects and Players.

For STO, you're going from a space (whole set of art, UI, ect..) to ground (Another whole art set, UI, ect...) Hell, EVERY SINGLE THING needs to be changed. You need new models (ships to people) new lighting (sky lighting is different then star lighting), different UI, different AI, ect...

That's loading screen worthy. And if you have 1 loading screen per planet beamdown, your fine.

[rogerwroten]

Have you seen the demo? Because most of us have, it's on Youtube. We've seen how long it takes. It really doesn't seem all that long, and that's with those of us geeked to see the next thing, not just relaxing while playing.

I actually think Rekhan was just kind of underpromising, and saying a high number. Hopefully they can 'over deliver' and give us somewhat short load times.

And I seriously do plan to get a SSD RAID setup, so 30 seconds of loading will never happen, even at boot up :p



I think you missheard. He didn't say only at that speed, he was just giving examples of big numbers, probably to make it sound exciting. The Sector space map is where you'll be going at warp, any warp speed.

And my point was that it seemed that you and Loekii were OK with a 30 second wait time to zone. To me 30 seconds is not acceptable. Period.

I don't expect them to take 30 seconds. If they do take 30 seconds I'll be surprised .... and at 30s, if we have to see a lot of em, this game will lose a lot of subscribers.

So one or the other will have to give, and Cryptic knows that. Either the load times will have to be short, or there will have to be very few.

Think about it ... if you have to wait 30 sec to get to where your mission requires, fight off some ships, wait 30s to beam down, do your mission on the planet, then wait 30s to beam back aboard your ship .... :(

I just don't see people putting us with that. So they will work it out.

You gotta remember ... I'm the guy that hates instances period ... I'm not taking Cryptic's side here or making excuses ... I'm just being objective.

I agree with you, mostly. Cryptic will have major problems if it take any where near 30 seconds to change zones. Which is why I made that post to Tamgros and Loekii. To me it sounded (read) like they would be OK with it.

[jblancato]

I'll try to run through an episode today and time it for you guys. As in, time on a map vs. time spent loading.

[Vampir888]

Best you make a video and show it to us so we can be sure that you didn't miscalculate. :D

[Tamgros]

Best you make a video and show it to us so we can be sure that you didn't miscalculate. :D

Lol /signed :D


Or at least let us take video at PAX :o

[blujester]

I'll try to run through an episode today and time it for you guys. As in, time on a map vs. time spent loading.

Now thats service. Garsone...more wine please..I seem to have a loading screen in my glass?


Bj

[Mozcol]

If a graphical paradise is the result of a 30 second load time, I have ZERO complaints:D

[Ifandbut]

To quote Zinc in one of the videos: "We have an 8 year old engine ...."

What else is there to say?

I'm sure they have upgraded as they have gone along, but the skeleton is still 8 year old technology / concepts.

If CO loading times are any indication it wont be that bad. I have not timed it but it is so fast I barely have time to take a sip of water before the zone is loaded.

I am also not concerned that it is a "8 year old engine". CO looks, acts, feels completely different then CoX (except for the whole super powers thing). I mean, if it an't broke then dont fix it. It is eaiser and cheaper to remodel a house then to build one from the ground up.

[knightofhyrule730]

To quote Zinc in one of the videos: "We have an 8 year old engine ...."

What else is there to say?

I'm sure they have upgraded as they have gone along, but the skeleton is still 8 year old technology / concepts.

dont snip craig's quote. he goes on to say that although its 8 years old theyve been constantly upgrading and refining it.

what is this, CNN?

[stat]

To quote Zinc in one of the videos: "We have an 8 year old engine ...."

What else is there to say?

I'm sure they have upgraded as they have gone along, but the skeleton is still 8 year old technology / concepts.

Don't forget the whole quote. :)

Besides, that isn't a bad thing. Look at Valve's Source Engine. :rolleyes:

[Falin]

Ohhh... ha ha ha ha.... That's funny....

Do you know what games have seemless transitions?(except for Travel between continents) World of Warcraft. EVE online. (Those are two I know of for a fact).
Do you know WHY?
Because in both of those games, the amount of art per transition is very similar. Each zone blends from one art to another seemlessly, keeping the same sky, similar monsters, ect... For EVE it's even simpler since it's just a few floating objects and Players.

For STO, you're going from a space (whole set of art, UI, ect..) to ground (Another whole art set, UI, ect...) Hell, EVERY SINGLE THING needs to be changed. You need new models (ships to people) new lighting (sky lighting is different then star lighting), different UI, different AI, ect...

That's loading screen worthy. And if you have 1 loading screen per planet beamdown, your fine.

Ok for clarification, i was mostly talking space and ground seperate, obviously space to gound would be a challenge, but then again the Infinity engine shows that can be done too.

[jblancato]

I'll try to run through an episode today and time it for you guys. As in, time on a map vs. time spent loading.

OK, I ran through the tutorial episode, since I had to make a new character anyway. It's shorter than the other episodes I've played, but it still features ground and space transitions.

It took me just under 28 minutes to run through, with a total loading time of 41.4 seconds. That's a 50:1 play-to-load ratio. The longest single loading time was 9.5 seconds. So my 30 second loading screen was a bit of an overestimation. I'm on a machine that can run Champs, so your mileage may vary, depending on your setup.

Also bear in mind the game isn't extremely optimized yet, so that will likely speed up.

[Loekii]

OK, I ran through the tutorial episode, since I had to make a new character anyway. It's shorter than the other episodes I've played, but it still features ground and space transitions.

It took me just under 28 minutes to run through, with a total loading time of 41.4 seconds. That's a 50:1 play-to-load ratio. The longest single loading time was 9.5 seconds. So my 30 second loading screen was a bit of an overestimation. I'm on a machine that can run Champs, so your mileage may vary, depending on your setup.

Also bear in mind the game isn't extremely optimized yet, so that will likely speed up.

WHAT! :eek:

My limit was 41.3 seconds!

/me Start throwing stuff targs and other toys out of his gorn pram!

:p

[knightofhyrule730]

Thanks Rekhan. Obviously, a lot of fears have just been hit with a spread of photons.

as i expected.

[Loekii]

Thanks Rekhan. Obviously, a lot of fears have just been hit with a spread of photons.

as i expected.

I would not necessarily say that. I think it just shows that the its not going to be too bitter, but it is still bitter none the less to those that dislike loading screens.

They are not a deal breaker for me, but I can see how some are upset.

[fractaleye]

Heck, 9.5 seconds (while still not optimized) is definately okay to me. The load screens was never really an issue for me, but it's good to know that they aren't that long (imo). Thanks.

[Tamgros]

OK, I ran through the tutorial episode, since I had to make a new character anyway. It's shorter than the other episodes I've played, but it still features ground and space transitions.

It took me just under 28 minutes to run through, with a total loading time of 41.4 seconds. That's a 50:1 play-to-load ratio. The longest single loading time was 9.5 seconds. So my 30 second loading screen was a bit of an overestimation. I'm on a machine that can run Champs, so your mileage may vary, depending on your setup.

Also bear in mind the game isn't extremely optimized yet, so that will likely speed up.

lol, yeah, that's what I thought. I figured I would notice the loading screens more if they were longer.

Just for everyone, don't come up with these "IT TOOK ME 68 Seconds!!??! REKHAN SAID!?!?!" Type threads later on. Obviously this time will vary from comp to comp depending on your set up, other players around (another reason why keeping populations low per instance has its positives) and connection speed.

If you really want to reduce load times, i suggest looking at upgrading your hard drive. That is usually the main factor, along with RAM. I doubt Rekhan had much more than a 7200RPM hard drive, but if it was a more 'compact' disk around 1TB, that would have decreased his load times from that of a 320 MB. But, even that is pretty neglidgable when you're talking 9.5 seconds as the longest... The main differences you'll see is if you get a VelociRaptor (little loud for some people), Solid State Disk (quiet FAST! but expensive atm), or arrange your HDs in a RAID format (semi complicated). There's a lot of good info around the internet about how this works.

In any event, I haven't seen any indications from what I've seen by STO or CO that loading times will be as much of a nuisance as some people are worried aobut.

[LordDave]

Ok for clarification, i was mostly talking space and ground seperate, obviously space to gound would be a challenge, but then again the Infinity engine shows that can be done too.

Sure, but that huge area between the planet's "space" area and the ground is where the load screen comes from. It's the same in WoW: A transition zone loads the other "zone" while it has the last "zone" already in memory. With STO we won't have those. It's instant one to another.

Also, I don't think they've put in NPCs or lots of art yet. Not sure though, haven't kept up since Nic has gone.

Still, even WoW had instances and load-screens for them and that game has the lowest art files you can get.

*shrug*
Everything is possible but not all of it is practical.

[Tamgros]

then again the Infinity engine shows that can be done too.

Actually, it doesn't. There is a lot of exaggerating going on around about what the inovae engine (infinity's engine) can do. This is one of the most prevalent exaggerations. Yes, you can take your ship from space and go down to the round. What you CANNOT DO, is then get out of your ship with any sort of avatar EVER! Don't get me wrong, I'm really loving infinity's game design. In fact, I'm careful not to be accused of advertising for it here, but transitions from space to ground play are simply not in Infinity, at all.

Basically, the STO equivalent would be to be landing on a large asteroid... seriously.

Now, there has been some talk of eventually being able to go from flying a ship, to docking, to walk around inside of starbases in infinity. But, in order to do that, guess what there would have to be between those Falin. Please do, i'll give you two guesses, but you should only need one :p

[Father_Origin]

Developers....IF you are going to have loading screens.....PLEASE make it a panoramic shot of
our ship warping through space...or a fly by of our ship or anything you might see in a star trek show or
movie.

Not some crappy screen shot with a star trek logo..or other easy to do crap.

Keep it like the show...yes a bit of extra work, but important.

when wow hit the streets, it was not the coolest graphics...the most indepth..ect..
Wow took over because it was POLISHED, it WORKED, it PLAYED WELL.

paint that on your desk !

POLISHED
WORKS
PLAYS WELL

[Ifandbut]

OK, I ran through the tutorial episode, since I had to make a new character anyway. It's shorter than the other episodes I've played, but it still features ground and space transitions.

It took me just under 28 minutes to run through, with a total loading time of 41.4 seconds. That's a 50:1 play-to-load ratio. The longest single loading time was 9.5 seconds. So my 30 second loading screen was a bit of an overestimation. I'm on a machine that can run Champs, so your mileage may vary, depending on your setup.

Also bear in mind the game isn't extremely optimized yet, so that will likely speed up.

Stupid question but, your not running a few SSDs in RAID are you?:p

Also, it it just me or is it a very good sign that a Rekhan said he would just run a episode and actually a) did it and b) got back to use with the answer in all of 3hrs.

[knightofhyrule730]

you might get a static picture of a ship at warp, but it will not be your exact ship, nor will it be moving. it would put unneeded stress on your HD, video card and processor.

either way, this thread is not needed. theres already one thats active with a lot of pages it could have been added to.

[Father_Origin]

you might get a static picture of a ship at warp, but it will not be your exact ship, nor will it be moving. it would put unneeded stress on your HD, video card and processor.

either way, this thread is not needed. theres already one thats active with a lot of pages it could have been added to.

your joking?
your saying they can't have the client side software grab your current active ship model, paste it on
a generic star field? ..to much for the computer to handle ????

Dude, my screen saver does more than that and uses....maybe 2% resources

[knightofhyrule730]

The way it works now, every time you bring up a new map, there's a short loading time. Short is in the range of 30 seconds or so. This is usually when you warp into an area, or beam down to a planet. Once you're in a map, there's no loading going on, and our maps are pretty big.



Two-fold reason:
1) Doing anything that's especially processor or hard drive intensive would slow down loading in general. Bringing up a cinematic is both of those things. If you look, modern games are doing more interesting things with loading screens (see the latest FIFA game on the PS3) but ...
2) I have a friend who is an expert on videogame patents, and apparently people have these really weird patents on stuff you can do with loading screens. It's why you can't play Peggle while you're loading a new level in another game. This makes my heart sad.

theres your reason. if it moves, and you are not in control, it is a cinematic.

[Draconianknight]

I'll try to run through an episode today and time it for you guys. As in, time on a map vs. time spent loading.

Sweet! Since the maps are so big! Does that mean the instancing will be limited? Thus also limiting the amount of loading time?

[Rgoodfel]

Personally I am sometimes disappointed that the loading times on CO is so short. I have to speed read the helpful hints and I usually can't read them fast enough.

[AloneMordakai]

If I have to watch a loading screen every so often PLEASE make it useful. Like helpful tips. Not warcraft tips like "open all your bags by pressing B" that doesn't help.

Something I might not figure out on my own would be nice, like: "You can knock out an enemies shields, then BEAM a torpedo to their bridge" <----- that's helpful stuff.

Thanks!

[Loekii]

Personally I am sometimes disappointed that the loading times on CO is so short. I have to speed read the helpful hints and I usually can't read them fast enough.

I actually dislike the 'info/hints' stuff in loading screens, and simply prefer variety of artwork.

For example, I liked the loading screen in the Gameplay videos, and would want to see a number of such Loading screens -- Various artwork of the various races (Gorn, Andorian, Trill, Vulcan, Breen, Borg, Orion, etc).

[Loekii]

Tech Question.

So if RAID helps reduce the loading screens by say 5 seconds, can you get the same effect with simply a single but better HD?

What else affects load times?

[Ifandbut]

While the tips are nice maybe they could also put storyline info to help fill in people who have not seend all the Path to 2409.

[rogerwroten]

OK, I ran through the tutorial episode, since I had to make a new character anyway. It's shorter than the other episodes I've played, but it still features ground and space transitions.

It took me just under 28 minutes to run through, with a total loading time of 41.4 seconds. That's a 50:1 play-to-load ratio. The longest single loading time was 9.5 seconds. So my 30 second loading screen was a bit of an overestimation. I'm on a machine that can run Champs, so your mileage may vary, depending on your setup.

Also bear in mind the game isn't extremely optimized yet, so that will likely speed up.

Thank you. 10 seconds would be fine with me.

[Falin]

Thank you. 10 seconds would be fine with me.

but 0 seconds would be ideal and perfect.

[Fallout365]

Tech Question.

So if RAID helps reduce the loading screens by say 5 seconds, can you get the same effect with simply a single but better HD?

What else affects load times?

Going from an old style ata HD to a sata solid state disk will make a difference, as will system upgrades in general, up to a point.

Ram is cheaper then air atm, maxing out ram and ditching that antique 80 gig ata drive is will make a big diference.

U will eventualy reach a point where upgrading will have little effect. My old system and my new one seem to load wow/swg about the same, and loading screens apear simiar, but fps is not even close. Keep in mind, my old pc was no slouch, duo core 4 gig ram 8800 gtx. If u beat what they have listed for recommended, upgrading would probly not make a huge difference in loading times

I just built my pc recently, only spent like 800 bucks, new egg is your friend

AMD Phenom II X4 940 black edition
Asus mb (gigabyte is dead to me)
8 gig ram
2x 500 gig sata drive's in raid 0
Vista x64 (vista is good stop hatin)
reused my 8800 gtx

I am still not comfortable jumping on the solid state band wagon, we use them at work in our products (www.emc.com) and their failure rate it still not what I would consider great, its getting there, but give it a year imo. I spent around 60$ each for my 500gig hd's, im to cheap to buy SS drives at this time anyway :)

It realy comes down to what u have, and if it would be better performance/dolllar wise to just build a new one. Post what u got, and we cant tell u what we would do.



Back on topic, SWG has horrible horrible loading times, while I found them anoying, I would rate that real low on things wrong with SWG.

The loading screens I have seen in the Demo footage seems exceptable to me, a loading screen when going from space>ground ground>space system>warp doesnt seem like a horrbile thing to me at the speeds we have seen from the demo. I would expect them to get better when we start heading to release

I am more worried about depth, MT's, nad role balancing, Loading times are an almost non issue to me

[jblancato]

Stupid question but, your not running a few SSDs in RAID are you?:p

Also, it it just me or is it a very good sign that a Rekhan said he would just run a episode and actually a) did it and b) got back to use with the answer in all of 3hrs.

Nah, just a normal SATA drive. The machine at work is actually less powerful than my machine at home. It does hit the Champs recommended, though.

[Nasedo]

Nah, just a normal SATA drive. The machine at work is actually less powerful than my machine at home. It does hit the Champs recommended, though.

whats your system spec's on your computer at work and one at home? Just wondering :)

Nasedo

[BlehAngel]

You could also try a Western Digital VelociRaptor 10K HD. They seem to perform pretty good.
Don't have one yet but planning on getting one when I get me a new system.

[Nestro]

Other things necessery to ask, to relativize the 9.5 secs stated, were you (mr. Rekhan, sir) runing everything on high?

[Loekii]

Other things necessery to ask, to relativize the 9.5 secs stated, were you (mr. Rekhan, sir) runing everything on high?

He may have also been running it with 'beta software' (bug sniffing software, and other things that tend to slow down performance in beta).

[Avenger_Dragon]

OK, I ran through the tutorial episode, since I had to make a new character anyway. It's shorter than the other episodes I've played, but it still features ground and space transitions.

It took me just under 28 minutes to run through, with a total loading time of 41.4 seconds. That's a 50:1 play-to-load ratio. The longest single loading time was 9.5 seconds. So my 30 second loading screen was a bit of an overestimation. I'm on a machine that can run Champs, so your mileage may vary, depending on your setup.

Also bear in mind the game isn't extremely optimized yet, so that will likely speed up.

Thanks Rehan, much appreciated.

Stupid humans get aggravated nowadays when they have to wait for very long.

[Ellsworth]

Loading screens will kill STO

They can't expect the CO model to be the right model for STO

[Zepath]

Loading screens will kill STO

They can't expect the CO model to be the right model for STO

Oh, they can ... and I'm under the impression they do.

:D

[jblancato]

Other things necessery to ask, to relativize the 9.5 secs stated, were you (mr. Rekhan, sir) runing everything on high?

Of course. I'm a man of wealth and taste, after all :p

[andrewprofit]

The greatest game ever starflight had zones where it would load up data about the area you were moving into. The movement would pause and the words SCANNING would showup. I miss that. Doctor McCoy has been attacked for 12 damage by a large orthorhomic cold blooded mammel 70cm tall with spikes on its tail. How in the world did that thing get into the. McCoy close the window your letting all the air out.

[Ifandbut]

Nah, just a normal SATA drive. The machine at work is actually less powerful than my machine at home. It does hit the Champs recommended, though.

That's good to know. That means my Raptors in Raid 5 should get those loading times down into the sub 5 second range. This is assumeing 4 Gigs of RAM will be good enough with Windows 7.

[Nestro]

He may have also been running it with 'beta software' (bug sniffing software, and other things that tend to slow down performance in beta).

Its just, never ever did my PC perform as assumed. And since i am no computer scientist it always just looks to me like i am forced to buy the newest piece of technologie available. I just hope and pray my PC will still be able to perform well enough for STO. Dont have the dime to get me a new one thistime :o

[LordDave]

your joking?
your saying they can't have the client side software grab your current active ship model, paste it on
a generic star field? ..to much for the computer to handle ????

Dude, my screen saver does more than that and uses....maybe 2% resources
Err...
Let us ask ourselves how it actually works.
Model is made up of pieces. Each piece has 3 textures (base, Alpha, Vertex). Each texture can be a good 1020x760. The Texture must then be loaded onto the model. The geometry must be calculated. The generic map must then be loaded (gotta have something to put the model in ya know), then proper lighting (very resource intensive) THEN you load the star field background.
All that while your computer is also loading up a brand new map with all new items, art, models, lighting configurations, ect....
You waste 5 seconds loading a map so you can see it for another 10. A 15 second wait time vs a 10 second wait time.


Tech Question.

So if RAID helps reduce the loading screens by say 5 seconds, can you get the same effect with simply a single but better HD?

What else affects load times?

Load times are two fold.
1. Dump what you don't need, grab what you do and load it in.
2. Synch with the server.
When you load a new area, you have to get all the data on where items are (like moving NPCs) and where players are (if you aren't alone). It's like merging into traffic. Sometimes it's easy and you can just keep moving forward. Sometimes you have to stop and wait for an opening.

[Fawke]

Open space will probably have what are termed "server lines/boundries". Basically, this is a transition from one server to another.

Star Wars Galaxies uses this method because each planet is a zone itself. The problem with SWG is that when someone crosses a server line they usually disappear from the people on the opposite side of the server line... so... I hope they don't have that problem in Star Trek...

As for actually zoning... I don't see how they couldn't have a load screen. You can't nescesarily play a cinematic movie or have some fancy loading process because people still need to load the next area. Not everyone has fast computers with fast hard drives in a raid0 so, for those slow people, something must be displayed while they wait. I'd imagine most of the loading will take place when you Warp into a new place. When it comes to beaming down to someplace, im sure they will show you actually beaming down( I hope).

If you have problems with loading, go buy a solid state HD and use it for gaming installs.

[Draconianknight]

From what I have seen the Cryptic engine is based off of tech that I believe they said was like 8 years old.
If that is the case most people's PC's should be able to handle what ever demand is placed upon thier systems. Not to many people that game have systems that are that old, at least I hope not!:cool:

[mlubey]

The way it works now, every time you bring up a new map, there's a short loading time. Short is in the range of 30 seconds or so. This is usually when you warp into an area, or beam down to a planet. Once you're in a map, there's no loading going on, and our maps are pretty big.



Two-fold reason:
1) Doing anything that's especially processor or hard drive intensive would slow down loading in general. Bringing up a cinematic is both of those things. If you look, modern games are doing more interesting things with loading screens (see the latest FIFA game on the PS3) but ...
2) I have a friend who is an expert on videogame patents, and apparently people have these really weird patents on stuff you can do with loading screens. It's why you can't play Peggle while you're loading a new level in another game. This makes my heart sad.

I agree I really keep the loading screens.

[Krakkken]

I know from experience that if you have a "loading zone" in an instance and everyone has to jump to the same points, heaven help you if are jumping into a pvp zone. In SWG's version of space when you jump to a pvp area there are usualy 4 enemy pvp ships waiting on you at the spawn point blasting you to hell while you wait to load in. By the time your screen comes up its too late. Has this issue of spawn camping even been brought up by the devs? And what are these devs going to do about this absolutly game breaking problem?

[Loekii]

I know from experience that if you have a "loading zone" in an instance and everyone has to jump to the same points, heaven help you if are jumping into a pvp zone. In SWG's version of space when you jump to a pvp area there are usualy 4 enemy pvp ships waiting on you at the spawn point blasting you to hell while you wait to load in. By the time your screen comes up its too late. Has this issue of spawn camping even been brought up by the devs? And what are these devs going to do about this absolutly game breaking problem?


Usually, there are PvP immunity times to address this issue -- thus you are unattackable until you are loaded into the zone on your end.

[Mozcol]

I know from experience that if you have a "loading zone" in an instance and everyone has to jump to the same points, heaven help you if are jumping into a pvp zone. In SWG's version of space when you jump to a pvp area there are usualy 4 enemy pvp ships waiting on you at the spawn point blasting you to hell while you wait to load in. By the time your screen comes up its too late. Has this issue of spawn camping even been brought up by the devs? And what are these devs going to do about this absolutly game breaking problem?

Taking POTBS as an example, you get a fair amount of immunity/cannot be attacked after loading in so you can duck out and not worry about getting nailed 5-1, I'm sure there will be a mechanic in place to prevent being jumped upon loading. Spawn camping is a deterrence for people taking part in pvp and serves no relevant purpose to pvp. I have no doubts that being spawn camped is not going to be an issue.

[Aslan_chShran]

OK, I ran through the tutorial episode, since I had to make a new character anyway. It's shorter than the other episodes I've played, but it still features ground and space transitions.

It took me just under 28 minutes to run through, with a total loading time of 41.4 seconds. That's a 50:1 play-to-load ratio. The longest single loading time was 9.5 seconds. So my 30 second loading screen was a bit of an overestimation. I'm on a machine that can run Champs, so your mileage may vary, depending on your setup.

Also bear in mind the game isn't extremely optimized yet, so that will likely speed up.

There should be NO load screens. If you have to fake loading time, do it while a ship is in warp to make it LOOK like you're traveling from point A to point B when in fact the game is loading. That adds to the immersion instead of slapping on a picture that disconnects you from being inside the universe.

so i been thinking and watch the webshow over and over again and it seems like Space is going to be huge!!!! and there's zone's? now?

so i can't help to think that i'll be on my ship at warp 6 heading to a mission and every few mins i hit a loading screen that would be really annoying

along with beaming to a planet (loading screen) or even beaming over to another ship to take it over or kill the crew...

how many annoying loading screen will there be?

i believe jack said there are zones in this game... wasn't zone's so back in EQ?

Yeah, space just went from huge to very disappointing. I've waited for a Star Trek MMORPG for 10 years (that's a decade!!!!), and so I'm still excited that there is going to be a Star Trek MMORPG - but Cryptic just ruined a big part of it for me. To me loading screens aren't just annoying, they destroy the experience. We're supposed to be exploring space, and for that you have warp drives and watching your ship flying through warp... not seeing loading screens.

[LordDave]

There should be NO load screens. If you have to fake loading time, do it while a ship is in warp to make it LOOK like you're traveling from point A to point B when in fact the game is loading. That adds to the immersion instead of slapping on a picture that disconnects you from being inside the universe.



Yeah, space just went from huge to very disappointing. I've waited for a Star Trek MMORPG for 10 years (that's a decade!!!!), and so I'm still excited that there is going to be a Star Trek MMORPG - but Cryptic just ruined a big part of it for me. To me loading screens aren't just annoying, they destroy the experience. We're supposed to be exploring space, and for that you have warp drives and watching your ship flying through warp... not seeing loading screens.

So what happens when you beam down or up? How do you propose switching from unloading ALL OF SPACE to loading ALL OF GROUND?!

Also, when you watch your ship fly through warp , you are flying your ship. It's not automatic.

To make loading screens non-existent, they'd have to pre-load a whole ground area in memory upon entering a system OR.... have some 30-60 second cutscene that plays all the time, forcing you to wait up to a minute instead of 10 seconds.

[Exist-nl-]

There should be NO load screens. If you have to fake loading time, do it while a ship is in warp to make it LOOK like you're traveling from point A to point B when in fact the game is loading. That adds to the immersion instead of slapping on a picture that disconnects you from being inside the universe.



Yeah, space just went from huge to very disappointing. I've waited for a Star Trek MMORPG for 10 years (that's a decade!!!!), and so I'm still excited that there is going to be a Star Trek MMORPG - but Cryptic just ruined a big part of it for me. To me loading screens aren't just annoying, they destroy the experience. We're supposed to be exploring space, and for that you have warp drives and watching your ship flying through warp... not seeing loading screens.

lol, Without cryptic there wouldn't be a ST mmo soon anyway. Stop nitpicking.

[Aslan_chShran]

So what happens when you beam down or up? How do you propose switching from unloading ALL OF SPACE to loading ALL OF GROUND?!

Also, when you watch your ship fly through warp , you are flying your ship. It's not automatic.

To make loading screens non-existent, they'd have to pre-load a whole ground area in memory upon entering a system OR.... have some 30-60 second cutscene that plays all the time, forcing you to wait up to a minute instead of 10 seconds.

I already posted my own thread on the matter so I won't post too much more here but the "cut screen" CAN very well be your ship flying through Warp that IS automatic and IS controlled by the game. Any information that is loading would be done invisibly, and don't say it can't be done because it CAN and it can easily be done.

lol, Without cryptic there wouldn't be a ST mmo soon anyway. Stop nitpicking.

Hey, you're right! Without SOE we wouldn't have had Star Wars Online, either and look what they did with it when they ignored the userbase. It is our obligation to post our feeling and what we do or do not like so as to produce a superior product. My OPINION is that loadscreens ruin the experience, so I'm not nitpicking I'm trying to help create a better game.

[Jarek301]

The loading screens looked pretty cool, and at least they were representative of the game. As for the concern about "zoning..." with so little revealed in that gameplay video, it remains still too early to tell on how frequent such zoning will occur.

[ETSstarfleetromulan]

I guess I will just be able to see my ship go to warp, and not see it actually in warp passing one system after another.:mad: Oh well...:(

Guess I have to agree with Aslan_chShran on every one of his points.

[knightofhyrule730]

I already posted my own thread on the matter so I won't post too much more here but the "cut screen" CAN very well be your ship flying through Warp that IS automatic and IS controlled by the game. Any information that is loading would be done invisibly, and don't say it can't be done because it CAN and it can easily be done.



Hey, you're right! Without SOE we wouldn't have had Star Wars Online, either and look what they did with it when they ignored the userbase. It is our obligation to post our feeling and what we do or do not like so as to produce a superior product. My OPINION is that loadscreens ruin the experience, so I'm not nitpicking I'm trying to help create a better game.

CLAP CLAP CLAP OI! LISTEN YOU!

You must not know much about computers and how they load information. Rekhan already said in this thread that they cant use a cutscene to load information because it takes TOO LONG. Show me any MMO that does not have loading screens. Deal with it or go home.

[Suricata]

From what I've seen of the demo, Cryptic have done everything possable to keep the loading time to a minimum. We have the ship entering warp and exiting warp, those few seconds can help slightly, and then we have a loading screen, which takes up the least ammount of resources. The cutscene appeared to last lessthan 10 seconds too, so its barely as issue. Eve online has load times in every sector (although during the load time it just looks at the gate you entered, Earth and Beyond did too in every sector with a load screen, which didn't really cause any issues, infact in Earth and beyond you saw a galatic map showing which system you were leaving and which one you were entering, which was actually quite handy to see!

I'm dead against movies and cutscenes though, they are cool the first few times, but i'm sure after a few months of playing seeing the same cutscenes will drive people crazy. Not only that, they take time to load, so it would just increase the time needed to load all the information, which kind of goes against the point!

[knightofhyrule730]

did anyone else notice that when Tam was beaming down to the planet and the Klingon loading screen was up, the landscape was panning a bit? that was cool.

[Krakkken]

The biggest problem I have with screen loads is that I am jerked out of my game play every time it happens. No matter how exciting the game play migh be before I have to jump to another area, I loose that excitement everytime I have to wait to reappear. Its like commercials in the middle of exciting parts of a movie on TV. It just breaks the immersion horribly. There are new games coming on the market "Infinity" who are using software to endlessly make space and planets. That game has even given video where you fly directly from space to any point on land. These are the types of game dynamics the devs needed to be working on. No load here, load there, wait, wait, wait. They cant say it cant be done because I have seen games that use this process already. Even a brief delay takes away from immersion so horribly.

[Liberty]

I just think the load screens need to show open space or some kind of warp effect rather than breaking immersion by showing you the same tacky wallpaper of some race and some stupid tip. City of Heros type load screens for a Star Trek game breaks the feel of space travel. I've seen a few other posts wanting some sort of space effect for the load screen so I know I'm not the only one. It doesn't have to be complex. I'd be happy with just stars flying by. No wallpapers except maybe for ground combat load screens between zones. Wallpaper art for inbetween loads in space needs to go.

[fractaleye]

The biggest problem I have with screen loads is that I am jerked out of my game play every time it happens. No matter how exciting the game play migh be before I have to jump to another area, I loose that excitement everytime I have to wait to reappear. Its like commercials in the middle of exciting parts of a movie on TV. It just breaks the immersion horribly. There are new games coming on the market "Infinity" who are using software to endlessly make space and planets. That game has even given video where you fly directly from space to any point on land. These are the types of game dynamics the devs needed to be working on. No load here, load there, wait, wait, wait. They cant say it cant be done because I have seen games that use this process already. Even a brief delay takes away from immersion so horribly.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3424/3894814049_e0b24f3c46_b.jpg
(Big thanks to HittingSmoke for taking and uploading the pic)

I usually try to see people's point of view and not flame, but seriously? Any load screen breaks 'your immersion so horribly'? Well, enjoy playing Infinity while I'm playing ST:O and waiting for my insanely long load screens.

[ETSstarfleetromulan]

CLAP CLAP CLAP OI! LISTEN YOU!

You must not know much about computers and how they load information. Rekhan already said in this thread that they cant use a cutscene to load information because it takes TOO LONG. Show me any MMO that does not have loading screens. Deal with it or go home.

Perhaps they can replace this whole scene with your ship loading its warp engines and taking its time, then having it warp precisely when all the data for the next map has been cached so it looks like you arrive there "instantly". Guess my idea is a bit too radical. Time delayed warp with no loading screen.

[Krakkken]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3424/3894814049_e0b24f3c46_b.jpg
(Big thanks to HittingSmoke for taking and uploading the pic)

I usually try to see people's point of view and not flame, but seriously? Any load screen breaks 'your immersion so horribly'? Well, enjoy playing Infinity while I'm playing ST:O and waiting for my insanely long load screens.

There are much better ways to travel between major points in games other than the dreaded load instancing. Its so old fashioned when there are lesser dev teams and lesser companines are doing it succesfully in other games. This cannon of space is supposed to endless and seamless. That is completely taken away in instanes. Why devs refuse to use new ways to enhance the game playablility instead of using what has been used since the very first mmo amazes me.

If you can live with ancient technology and old worn out game engines that dont work in present games then good for you. For my sub money, I realy dont want to settle for used game engines and their last game with new cartoon skins on it. If you go read the CO and COH forums you will here nothing but bad things of how those games are playing. Thats the engine that we will be using on this game. Its not good. I want an open game that the cannon deserves, not the same old crap programing that every other game they have produced year after year. Its the Star Trek that had me iinterested in this game, not Crytic studios or their reputation. I at least expect the game to resemble the wide open exploration that was the original storyline in ST.

[fractaleye]

There are much better ways to travel between major points in games other than the dreaded load instancing. Its so old fashioned when there are lesser dev teams and lesser companines are doing it succesfully in other games. This cannon of space is supposed to endless and seamless. That is completely taken away in instanes. Why devs refuse to use new ways to enhance the game playablility instead of using what has been used since the very first mmo amazes me.

If you can live with ancient technology and old worn out game engines that dont work in present games then good for you. For my sub money, I realy dont want to settle for used game engines and their last game with new cartoon skins on it. If you go read the CO and COH forums you will here nothing but bad things of how those games are playing. Thats the engine that we will be using on this game. Its not good. I want an open game that the cannon deserves, not the same old crap programing that every other game they have produced year after year. Its the Star Trek that had me iinterested in this game, not Crytic studios or their reputation. I at least expect the game to resemble the wide open exploration that was the original storyline in ST.

Cool story, bro. It's too bad you won't be playing ST:O. I still don't really understand how some short load screens can really kill openness of a game.

[Liberty]

From what I've seen the space part looks nothing like CoH or CO. Unfortunately the tag along away party pets and poor AI of enemies makes the ground part of STO looks exactly like CoH and CO with new skins. This worries me and even the Dev said the AI simply tries to keep you in the right range. Appears to be typical CoH combat. No tactics. No use of cover. No diplomacy. No surrender. So far the space part looks awesome but I have a feeling they are sacrificing on the ground part. Firing a phaser at someone who is point blank while they are trying to bash your skull in with a massive two handed melee weapons seems so silly. I bet if they got rid of personal shields and made it 3 hits and your disentegrated or one hit with that melee weapon and your decapitated that you'd use cover and tactics. Heh. Anyways, back to the topic at hand. Your limited in what you can do with load scenes. I would of preferred one server EVE style with instanced planets similar to EVE dead space but since there is no turning back from the shard system I'll have to deal. The best thing they can do is give the illusion of seamless travel but you can't do that with wallpaper load screens. You need a load screen that gives the illusion that your still in space travel. For ground instance load screens your even more limited. Maybe a screen pops up of one of your bridge officers talking to you while the next zone loads.

[boz75]

I agree with the decision to remove a load screen and replace with a few generic cut scenes travelling at warp/beaming down to a planet etc where loading of a new zone/area is necessary. It just makes the experience more seamless. Yes, you only need x amount of these scenes and whilst a player may still get bored of them, it's still a far far better solution in my opinion.

[Krakkken]

From what I've seen the space part looks nothing like CoH or CO. Unfortunately the tag along away party pets and poor AI of enemies makes the ground part of STO looks exactly like CoH and CO with new skins. This worries me and even the Dev said the AI simply tries to keep you in the right range. Appears to be typical CoH combat. No tactics. No use of cover. No diplomacy. No surrender. So far the space part looks awesome but I have a feeling they are sacrificing on the ground part. Firing a phaser at someone who is point blank while they are trying to bash your skull in with a massive two handed melee weapons seems so silly. I bet if they got rid of personal shields and made it 3 hits and your disentegrated or one hit with that melee weapon and your decapitated that you'd use cover and tactics. Heh. Anyways, back to the topic at hand. Your limited in what you can do with load scenes. I would of preferred one server EVE style with instanced planets similar to EVE dead space but since there is no turning back from the shard system I'll have to deal. The best thing they can do is give the illusion of seamless travel but you can't do that with wallpaper load screens. You need a load screen that gives the illusion that your still in space travel. For ground instance load screens your even more limited. Maybe a screen pops up of one of your bridge officers talking to you while the next zone loads.

Exactly what I was afraid of. They are bringing the biggest complaints about CO and COH to this game. Which is exactly why I didnt want to see a used up game engine being used on their "flagship" game.

[Liberty]

They could still use the same engine and be successful. They just need more intelligent AIs. A cover system implemented. Stances implemented. Perhaps prone increases your accuracy but also makes you a easier stationary target unless your behind something. Also, they need to put in options for the enemies. Perhaps when some enemies are so low on health they surrender and a button pops up. Accept surrender or continue combat. If you accept the surrender then a dialogue box opens up which depending on your response choices could reveal new map areas, surrender a weapon, gain new technology, or give valuable information. Perhaps capture could reveal weaknesses of the enemy or ways to get around particularly dangerous areas by using a shortcut. Heh, course we might want toggles. Klingons might want a toggle of never accept surrender so the button never annoyingly pops up.

[Hornet331]

Im quite curious which of the dozen games that don't have any loading screens you guys refering to.

I played quite a few games in the past 20 years and i don't remember any game that didn't had any sort of loading screens. Even huge world games like X3 and Oblivion come with loading screens (and they are single player games).

Even the animations in games like ratched&clank/metriod are hidden loading screens.

There will always be loading screen as long as we rely on a von neumann architecture, to process the data.

I prefer static loading screens, since the time they are displayed is only limited by the speed of the storage subsystem your using. With animations the time is always the same, and is artifically longer than it would be without an animation.

[Liberty]

I don't think a animated load screen of simply stars flying by as if you were in warp would significantly increase any load time as long as you kept the animation simple. Shoot, if I wanted just a static screen I'd want it all black so I can at least pretend its space. Heh.