@ People who want player crews

[bigsalgo911]

While having player crews would be great for big guilds it really isn't viable for normal play. That would require lots of people to coordinate play times and wouldn't be very casual gamer friendly. And if you think about it, gearing things more for casual gamers is better than making it for hardcores only. Why? Money. To make the game better, Cryptic will need subscription fees and if the game isn't casual-friendly then they won't be getting a lot of money since casuals will quit due to not being able to get anything done in the game. I think Cryptic is on the right track with the game, although I'm hoping there will be end game content that requies guilds/fleets to be very coordinated for big encounters and such.

Anyway, to people complaining about a 1 minute trailer that you saw today based on graphics or anything of the sort....

Early alpha version = Retail product. AMIRIGHT?

[marshalleck]

One thing you're forgetting: WoW has some of the most hardcore PVE available in any game today, and it's sitting on over 60% of the MMO market.

Maximizing profit means catering to both styles, not just casual. You aren't any more special for having a job and a life, because despite the stereotype: most hardcore gamers have jobs and real life duties to attend to as well. They just commit more focus and energy to their game of choice.

[chfireball]

There are allot of casual mmo's out there already. This will make new players quit anyway " been there done that"

there needs to be content for both types of players. also if ones guild does not have enough members to fly a starship perhaps a npc can fill in for the missing guild member/s...

[GlassEye]

I don't see a problem with this. As it was mentioned in the webcast anyone who is familiar with the masterminds in city of heroes can get a good idea of how the crew may work. And I consider my computer average and I get no lag with a team full of masterminds. (I say this as 'may' because we really don't know yet).

I think people should give cryptic a chance when it comes to ST online. What they should make is a good game and not just a game that concentrates wholly on the star trek universe. I think it will be fine.

I have already read alot of complaints. I can't believe how picky people are when it comes to Star Trek though I have seen some of this with the Star Wars series. Is everyone complaining a game designer? Champions online is sort of a spinoff of the COH world isn't it. Who knows what can be created in the future. I give them an A for effort. As of now there is just Star Trek Online. If it is anything like City Of Heroes I am sure it will be good.

But none-the-less it is a big amount of heat.

What it comes down to is, either you play it or you don't. No one is forcing you. Too much complaining. Good Lord!

[LunaticFringer]

Well part of it is having the choice to have a real crew as well.

That choice means a lot to some serious space ship simmers that will undoubtedly want to try it out when the game goes live.

However, I will go on the record and say they do need to keep the current idea. Just add to it for some interchangeable play.

[resurgent]

One thing you're forgetting: WoW has some of the most hardcore PVE available in any game today, and it's sitting on over 60% of the MMO market.

Maximizing profit means catering to both styles, not just casual. You aren't any more special for having a job and a life, because despite the stereotype: most hardcore gamers have jobs and real life duties to attend to as well. They just commit more focus and energy to their game of choice.

You're right, I really hope there are gear or upgrade rewards for players who do spend time in the universe. We all remember what happened to Star Wars Galaxies and the ill fated casual upgrade to the game.. I do not want to play a game where everyone is equal. Bigger and better ships should be earned as well as upgrades. If people want a casual game they can play once a week they may be better with a single player game then an MMO.

[Anach]

The other issue with real players, is everyone wants to be the boss. Unless there is some element of RP involved (Which isnt for everyone), then it's going to factor into the difficulties of finding other people to man the stations.

Developing your own NPC crew sounds like great fun. Being able to boss your crew around and not have them talk back :P

It also gives much more freedom with the amount of crew one can have. It would be highly unlikely to be able to fill a ship with even 100 crew for a small ship, especially if the server you're on is quiet.

Besides, who wants to hear 100 bad Scottish accents all saying "she canny take anymore captin!"

[Aterlatus]

Oh god, not the famous "New Game Experience". I'd been playing about 4 weeks and was enjoying the crafting side of things. NGE came about and I had the option to switch to a level 80 jedi. I uninstalled.

Although... had it been created for casuals from the beginning it wouldn't have had the same impact. The biggest problem with SWG was they were screwing around with people who'd put two years 'work' into their char by giving the same level away to new signups.

[wookiemart]

I agree that player crews are simply not practical not to mention the fact that getting a bunch of people online at the same time and obey the orders of just the one captain is simply fantasy, it might work for those well structured and well organised guilds out there but thats about it.

Starfleet has the most strict chain of command out there and I doubt very much that the greater masses would enjoy living under such conditions. (this is a game after all)

And what about the Klingons, the captain would have to respond to one form of challenge or another all the time, he would never get anything done.

And should they decide to have an expansion where the Borg can be a "player race" who the heck would want to level a friggin drone up to lvl whatever.

I mean it would be really cool to be able to crew a specific part of the ship, for sure but it's just not going to happen, because the players wont be dedicated enough, because the internet connection of the helm officer could give out just as he's maneuvering the ship through a self-replicating mine field and there goes everyone's last 5 hours of gameplay.

But most importantly, the Cryptic engine isn't designed to support this kind of system.
Somewhere down the line it might but for now they are doing what I think is the best thing possible, keep it simple and expand as you go.

Star Wars Galaxies started out with a very broad and complex system that was very cool to play in, but they just couldnt maintain it properly, what is it now?
a sad and pale clone of Warcraft, a model that I personally do not enjoy much.

So I am thankful for the "pet crew" idea and also remain very hopefull that the exploration aspects ofthe game will bring a most unique feel to the game.

[Warspawn]

Sorry, NPC pets controlled by AI generally suck. I'll take my friends at stations any day.

NPC pets get stuck, cause unwanted aggro, attack or heal the wrong target. My wife plays a mastermind in CoV and it's been a tough road for her.

I don't mind having pets fill in slots that you can't find real people for, but at least give us the option of having our friends/family/guildmates fill in stations on a bridge crew. Many of my friends have no desire to be captain; they'd much rather man the medical, science, tactical or maneuver stations. Is this game not for them perhaps? Is there going to be no place for the person who wants to be part of a team? Only the solo-king who can grind mindlessly with his pets to endgame without ever having to interact with another real human in a massively multiplayer game?

[Saerain]

While having player crews would be great for big guilds it really isn't viable for normal play. That would require lots of people to coordinate play times and wouldn't be very casual gamer friendly.
The guild I run is probably the most casual guild I know of, with less than a dozen active members who are more like friends than the hardcore gaming nations that roll around. It is because we are so small and reclusive that we would like player crews. If we were a larger guild, I am certain that we would not consider it feasible. Bridge crews are small.

Anyway, to people complaining about a 1 minute trailer that you saw today based on graphics or anything of the sort....

Early alpha version = Retail product. AMIRIGHT?
Graphically? Yeah, usually.

[einexile]

One thing you're forgetting: WoW has some of the most hardcore PVE available in any game today, and it's sitting on over 60% of the MMO market.

Maximizing profit means catering to both styles, not just casual. You aren't any more special for having a job and a life, because despite the stereotype: most hardcore gamers have jobs and real life duties to attend to as well. They just commit more focus and energy to their game of choice.

Yep, and this is why so much raiding starts at 7pm or 8pm server time. If you have a lot of free time, you can log in and screw around and something interesting will eventually happen. Sooner or later you're going to group with some good people and advance your character in some way. For people who get home at 6 and need to be in bed by midnight, a raiding schedule is a just handy way to avoid the uncertainty factor and the shopping around. It's how people without much time to kill ensure that they always get to enjoy the game and get their money's worth.

It doesn't have to be two different worlds, though. I'm in a top endgame guild that raids five nights a week, and I never raid with them because I just don't care for raiding and am not willing to put in the time. I still group with them and enjoy the benefits of being in a good guild, and they get something out of the bargain as well. The MMO industry has grappled with the difficulties of cementing together large groups of people who have different goals, and it's now a settled question.

[Ghrenn]

Sorry, NPC pets controlled by AI generally suck. I'll take my friends at stations any day.



As a long-time huntard, I disagree!

I'd take my pet over your friends any day! ;)

[sixwhirled]

One thing you're forgetting: WoW has some of the most hardcore PVE available in any game today, and it's sitting on over 60% of the MMO market.

Maximizing profit means catering to both styles, not just casual. You aren't any more special for having a job and a life, because despite the stereotype: most hardcore gamers have jobs and real life duties to attend to as well. They just commit more focus and energy to their game of choice.

Actually, maximizing resources is more important to control costs and keep the release date in the foreseeable future. I don't want cryptic to waste time, energy or resources in developing player crews. I'm happy with the route their taking and would definitely NOT buy the game if I was forced to crew with other players.

Besides, I think Cryptic knows that those people who want player crews will come along for the ride regardless. The opposite, however, is not true.

[sixwhirled]

The guild I run is probably the most casual guild I know of, with less than a dozen active members who are more like friends than the hardcore gaming nations that roll around. It is because we are so small and reclusive that we would like player crews. If we were a larger guild, I am certain that we would not consider it feasible. Bridge crews are small.


Graphically? Yeah, usually.

Having Player Crews at all would not be feasible logistically and I honestly don't want to spend time staring at LCARS computer panel and taking orders from some guy who still lives with his parents. Thanks though.

[marshalleck]

Actually, maximizing resources is more important to control costs and keep the release date in the foreseeable future. I don't want cryptic to waste time, energy or resources in developing player crews. I'm happy with the route their taking and would definitely NOT buy the game if I was forced to crew with other players.

I think the players who want to be able to crew ships with their friends, and may not play the game otherwise would disagree with characterizing that implementation as a waste of time or resources. And most gamers today will accept developers taking their time to get a game right, rather than rush a half-baked product out the door.

[Ghrenn]

I think the players who want to be able to crew ships with their friends, and may not play the game otherwise would disagree with characterizing that implementation as a waste of time or resources. And most gamers today will accept developers taking their time to get a game right, rather than rush a half-baked product out the door.

So, who are these people who want the real-people-crews?

Are they people who are already RP-ing Star Trek?

They're making a lot of noise, but not really explaining themselves very well.

[marshalleck]

So, who are these people who want the real-people-crews?

Are they people who are already RP-ing Star Trek?

They're making a lot of noise, but not really explaining themselves very well.

I was about to ask if you have not been reading this forum for the last week or so, but then I see you just registered today and I suppose that answers my question.

Those people have been posting in droves, by the way.

[connobi]

While having player crews would be great for big guilds it really isn't viable for normal play. That would require lots of people to coordinate play times and wouldn't be very casual gamer friendly. And if you think about it, gearing things more for casual gamers is better than making it for hardcores only. Why? Money. To make the game better, Cryptic will need subscription fees and if the game isn't casual-friendly then they won't be getting a lot of money since casuals will quit due to not being able to get anything done in the game. I think Cryptic is on the right track with the game, although I'm hoping there will be end game content that requies guilds/fleets to be very coordinated for big encounters and such.

Anyway, to people complaining about a 1 minute trailer that you saw today based on graphics or anything of the sort....

Early alpha version = Retail product. AMIRIGHT?

Yes, I agree with you. We've got quite a way to go from now to launch. People need to remember that before saying they won't touch this game based on a brief trailer & a rapid Q&A session.

[Ghrenn]

I was about to ask if you have not been reading this forum for the last week or so, but then I see you just registered today and I suppose that answers my question.

Those people have been posting in droves, by the way.

Ahhhhh! Of course. You are all wise and knowing!

I was asking an honest question...and I got snarkiness in return.

Thanks! ;)

[Cyjack]

I think the players who want to be able to crew ships with their friends, and may not play the game otherwise would disagree with characterizing that implementation as a waste of time or resources.

That is true. But after those 50 or so people leave the game, the vast majority of remaining players will really enjoy the extra polish.

[marshalleck]

Ahhhhh! Of course. You are all wise and knowing!

I was asking an honest question...and I got snarkiness in return.

Thanks! ;)

Well if it's true that you were just asking an 'honest' question, I apologize. I thought I read a certain amount of snarkiness in your post as well. If I misinterpreted it, I apologize. You should understand that dissenting opinion sometimes comes under fire around here, and since 'player crews' is currently not in line with the description of the game...

edit: see the post directly above mine to understand that last point. ;)

[Ghrenn]

Well if it's true that you were just asking an 'honest' question, I apologize. I thought I read a certain amount of snarkiness in your post as well. If I misinterpreted it, I apologize. You should understand that dissenting opinion sometimes comes under fire around here, and since 'player crews' is currently not in line with the description of the game...

I am sarcastic in tone as a rule...but mean nothing by it. *hugs*

I really do want an answer, but all the posts I've seen so far are all about how people want, need, gotta have player crews...but they don't say why.

[sixwhirled]

I was about to ask if you have not been reading this forum for the last week or so, but then I see you just registered today and I suppose that answers my question.

Those people have been posting in droves, by the way.

Yeah, I just registered today, but I had an eye on the game when Perpetual was developing it. I quickly lost interest when it was clear that they were pursuing the Player Crew route.

[aurickle]

While having player crews would be great for big guilds it really isn't viable for normal play. That would require lots of people to coordinate play times and wouldn't be very casual gamer friendly. And if you think about it, gearing things more for casual gamers is better than making it for hardcores only. Why? Money. To make the game better, Cryptic will need subscription fees and if the game isn't casual-friendly then they won't be getting a lot of money since casuals will quit due to not being able to get anything done in the game. I think Cryptic is on the right track with the game, although I'm hoping there will be end game content that requies guilds/fleets to be very coordinated for big encounters and such.

Anyway, to people complaining about a 1 minute trailer that you saw today based on graphics or anything of the sort....

Early alpha version = Retail product. AMIRIGHT?

It IS possible to have the best of both worlds. There can be a system for player crews that does not require you to twiddle your thumbs while your friends are offline.

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=115821

[sixwhirled]

That is true. But after those 50 or so people leave the game, the vast majority of remaining players will really enjoy the extra polish.

Here, here!

[bigsalgo911]

Yeah, I mean, it would be cool to be able to sub your friends in instead of having ALL npc crews, so there would always be someone on staff, but really...2 ships > 1 ship. if you have 5 friends to play with online then you have 6 ships which is WAY better than having them all on 1 ship. Soooo, I dont get it.

The game looks great so far. I like that they are trying to stay cannon which is very important to Trekkies, NPC crews are fine although I'm not sure how leveling will work without having "levels". Should be interesting to say the least. Even if the game ends up sucking (which I doubt), when have Trekkies ever let that stop us from buying a Star Trek game?

[sixwhirled]

Maybe what is needed is two different Trek MMOs. A game for people who are content to be on Player crews and sit at a LCARS panel taking orders, but still be able to be immersed in the Trek universe ala "Second Life". And a game more in line with what Cryptic is talking about. I don't see why there can't be room for both. Only the "Second Life" version needs a developer.

[Warspawn]

Maybe what is needed is two different Trek MMOs...

Actually, it sounds like Cryptic is focusing on satisfying the needs/wants/desires of the solo crowd and console players. Having NPC's only in the crew is sorta like 6-boxing WoW or something. Sure, it could be done, but would it be more efficient and fun than actually having friends along peforming some of the roles of the group? My wife was jazzed to play the game and be a medical officer on a ship; now that she saw the preview she has no interest in being a captain of a starship. She wants, as many do, to be a member of a team working together. Not a button-masher controlling a bunch of NPC's doing her bidding.

[Ghrenn]

Actually, it sounds like Cryptic is focusing on satisfying the needs/wants/desires of the solo crowd and console players. Having NPC's only in the crew is sorta like 6-boxing WoW or something. Sure, it could be done, but would it be more efficient and fun than actually having friends along peforming some of the roles of the group? My wife was jazzed to play the game and be a medical officer on a ship; now that she saw the preview she has no interest in being a captain of a starship. She wants, as many do, to be a member of a team working together. Not a button-masher controlling a bunch of NPC's doing her bidding.

I think both ways would run the danger of becoming a "button-mashing" fest.

[sixwhirled]

Actually, it sounds like Cryptic is focusing on satisfying the needs/wants/desires of the solo crowd and console players. Having NPC's only in the crew is sorta like 6-boxing WoW or something. Sure, it could be done, but would it be more efficient and fun than actually having friends along peforming some of the roles of the group? My wife was jazzed to play the game and be a medical officer on a ship; now that she saw the preview she has no interest in being a captain of a starship. She wants, as many do, to be a member of a team working together. Not a button-masher controlling a bunch of NPC's doing her bidding.

See, I'm not thinking of it as you play "The Captain" and you control an NPC crew. Rather, what I've interpreted from Cryptic's description is that you control a group of people ala Final Fantasy (not online). "You" are not any particular character, rather "you" are controlling a group of characters. At least I hope that this is what Cryptic is aiming for.

[Yavin_Prime]

While having player crews would be great for big guilds it really isn't viable for normal play. That would require lots of people to coordinate play times and wouldn't be very casual gamer friendly. And if you think about it, gearing things more for casual gamers is better than making it for hardcores only. Why? Money. To make the game better, Cryptic will need subscription fees and if the game isn't casual-friendly then they won't be getting a lot of money since casuals will quit due to not being able to get anything done in the game. I think Cryptic is on the right track with the game, although I'm hoping there will be end game content that requies guilds/fleets to be very coordinated for big encounters and such.

Anyway, to people complaining about a 1 minute trailer that you saw today based on graphics or anything of the sort....

Early alpha version = Retail product. AMIRIGHT?

I have to agree with you on this one. I played a game called StarQuest Online which supported this system, and it was fun for a while. Then I realised that my captain had more of a life than me and that I'd log on to an empty ship more often than not.

See the system is great for large groups of people (and that includes if its just bridge crew), I support the player = commander of a ship style because it supports solo and group play all at once. I don't want to have to wait around for someone just so I can go out and have an adventure or two.

[Shatterhand]

Anyway, to people complaining about a 1 minute trailer that you saw today based on graphics or anything of the sort....

Early alpha version = Retail product. AMIRIGHT?

I am beginning to wonder if people who watched this trailer were really paying attention. There are a lot of people quick to correct those who object to the graphics of the game, saying that the game's in a "pre-alpha" stage and that things will likely change. Folks, those graphics aren't just stuff the production team threw together to show us. It's actual gameplay footage. He was very specific that what we were seeing is what we'd see in-game. Sure, over time it may get a little spit and polish, but overall, what we're seeing is what we're getting.

[bigsalgo911]

I am beginning to wonder if people who watched this trailer were really paying attention. There are a lot of people quick to correct those who object to the graphics of the game, saying that the game's in a "pre-alpha" stage and that things will likely change. Folks, those graphics aren't just stuff the production team threw together to show us. It's actual gameplay footage. He was very specific that what we were seeing is what we'd see in-game. Sure, over time it may get a little spit and polish, but overall, what we're seeing is what we're getting.

I disagree with you. By looking at the video there are some graphic rendering issues that need to be worked out. You can see as the "camera" pans that the doodads/ground clutter changes depending on distance from the camera, which is a rendering problem they need to work out and also there were some flickering textures and things of the like. I'm not saying things are going to change by leaps and bounds, but we should definitely expect the game to look MUCH more polished than what we saw.

[johnson4444]

The other issue with real players, is everyone wants to be the boss. Unless there is some element of RP involved (Which isnt for everyone), then it's going to factor into the difficulties of finding other people to man the stations.

A quick comment on this... I wouldn't say "everyone" wants to be the boss. In fact, most of time I'm happy to have someone control the scenario and I contribute. Probably the older you get, the more reward you get from being a cog in the machine, rather than being the pointy end (and yes, I'm kinda old).

Just an observation, not a criticism of the poster :)

[bigsalgo911]

A quick comment on this... I wouldn't say "everyone" wants to be the boss. In fact, most of time I'm happy to have someone control the scenario and I contribute. Probably the older you get, the more reward you get from being a cog in the machine, rather than being the pointy end (and yes, I'm kinda old).

Just an observation, not a criticism of the poster :)

Agreed. It seems as I get older I prefer to be a cog in the wheel. Like in WoW I prefer to just be there and not be the one in charge. Too much work to be in charge. lol

[Ensign_Steve]

I am beginning to wonder if people who watched this trailer were really paying attention. There are a lot of people quick to correct those who object to the graphics of the game, saying that the game's in a "pre-alpha" stage and that things will likely change. Folks, those graphics aren't just stuff the production team threw together to show us. It's actual gameplay footage. He was very specific that what we were seeing is what we'd see in-game. Sure, over time it may get a little spit and polish, but overall, what we're seeing is what we're getting.


This isnt true. I liked the graphics, but even so, games definitely look and move quite a bit better than early phases, when they might have placeholder graphics and textures, and very rough looking motion.

My biggest problem would be with some of the planetary environments, but if you compare those to what you actually have seen in the series, they look great by comparison.

[illrigger]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say Cryptic is right about their choice in this department.

People love to cite WoW for various statistics on games - WoW has the largest player base, yes, but that does not mean their formula is right for every game, or that their formula is without flaw.

No new MMO can go into development thinking that they will be the new WoW. To do so is to fail. While losing player crews is a big hit, it's a safe bet that the majority of players would be turned off by the experience of paying a monthly fee to log into a game and repeatedly find their crew not there. It's just as unsatisfactory to log in and have to PUG a crew each session - we ALL know the pain of how hit and miss PUGs are.

Back to the success of WoW, to put it simply, it depends on a few novel concepts for MMOs. First, it has a great, easy to understand solo play experience for the majority of the game. Second, it has lots of group play throughout, culminating in activities for you to do once the basic play has run out. Third, it had palpable progress throughout the game, every level. Older MMOs were a "sandbox", that did not compel the player with anything beyond the promise of better loot (although, admittedly, even the vaunted WoW falls prey to this once you cap).

It's my thinking that, while copying WoW directly is a formula for failure in a ST game, anything that gets in the way of the things that made WoW successful for the casual player is also a formula for failure. STO, by definition MUST be a sandbox game, allowing players to do whatever they want within the confines of the premise ("Explore strange new worlds", et.al.), but at the same time it MUST maintain the ability to just hop in and play for an hour and make meaningful progress like WoW does.

All that being said, I can see that to require player crews goes against that formula. It puts a "gate" on the ability to play the game without a minimum time commitment. I don't know how many of you have played DDO, but if you have, you know what I mean. DDO more or less requires you to play in a group. When you play in a group, it's a lot of fun, but it means finding a group every login, dealing with the dynamics of that group, and then leaving it (not always at a good time) when you run out of time to play. As forum posters, you probably don't have a lot of issues chatting with people you don't know, but I'll remind you that we're the minority, and that a lot of people will want to play STO so they can immerse themselves in the ST universe and will most definitely be turned away by the requirement to needlessly socialize just to do that. These are geeks we're talking about, after all - many of whom aren't all that great at social situations.

OK, that's enough said on the subject, and it's all my opinion, based on my observations of many, many years of tabletop, computing, and MMO gaming - nothing is "fact", it's just all hypothesis. I welcome your responses for debate.