Star Trek vs Star Wars

[raiderkurt19]

I like star wars better than star trek
but doesnt star wars take place in the past, and star trek in the future?
Does anyone think Star Wars technology would improve over time?

[Catamount]

Stargate SG-1 beat star trek in season in a long shot

Star Wars doesn't require antimatter to operate thier ships.

Correction: they can't use antimatter in their ships. Generally speaking, fusion seems to be what they use, which is antiquated by Trek standards.

I like star wars better than star trek
but doesnt star wars take place in the past, and star trek in the future?
Does anyone think Star Wars technology would improve over time?

Well... you'd think so. The sad truth, however, is that Wars tech doesn't ever seem to advance. In the 4,000 years between the KOTOR timeline and the Battle of Yavin, absolutely nothing changed in that universe aside from droids that looks slightly less cool (so it was the opposite of advancement). Oh yes, and in KOTOR, you could use mundane swords to battle blasters and light sabers with to give the illusion that it was more primitive.

[LordEnn]

To me, anything with pure magic, wizards, classical heroes, and sword fights is fantasy.

Those have quasi-scientific explanations. However idiotic you may consider them to be, those explanations qualify the franchise as scientific fiction. For example, the Force, a pervasive energy field, is comparable to the psionic fields that permit telekinesis and telepathy in Star Trek.

It's one genre painted up to look like another genre...

That's a subjective observation. One could say, for example, that by being masked as a specific genre, it becomes part of that genre. Similarly, one could reverse the entire evaluation by saying that it's scientific fiction tainted by a number of fantastical elements.

I could easily stigmatize Star Trek in the same manner. Q is deific, and the Prophets of Bajor appear to be divine spirits. The achievement of non-corporeal existence is possible, projections of one's imagination can be translated into matter, and psionic abilities, such as telepathy, are common. The possession of biological organisms by omnipotent ghosts has occurred. Certain beings can even perceive the future, thereby gaining the ability to determine the fate of an individual (or an entire civilization), which is something that followers of Star Trek occasionally claim to be an important factor in determining which genre Star Wars belongs to.

Obviously, many of those have quasi-scientific explanations. That means that they're features of scientific fiction. Although it was originally based on a fantastical idea, the Force also has a quasi-scientific explanation.

Thus far, Star Wars has centered itself around an extensive story, which is surrounded by fictitious scientific elements. Star Trek, on the other hand, sometimes appears to be the opposite. Many of the stories within it simply accompany the complex technological dilemmas around which it is centered, and that can create illusions of increased realism and decreased attachment to its fantastical aspects.

I'm just saying the comparisons between star trek and star wars are very much impossible because one of them has magic, fate...

I've explained that in the text above.

...sword fights..

Klingons widely use various kinds of bladed weaponry, especially the bat'leth. They've even charged into battle with bat'leths as their main weapons. As well as that, the Roman Republic used swords, but it was real. :p

...and ships that don't follow any rules.

What kind of rules?

Correction: they can't use antimatter in their ships. Generally speaking, fusion seems to be what they use, which is antiquated by Trek standards.

Ilithi's rules for this topic restrict the usage of secondary and tertiary canon for information. :p What type of fusion do they seem to use? It could be something completely different to what you're thinking about. Not a single source states that it's nuclear fusion.

[Catamount]

Hey Ilithi, your thread came back again.

[Zyrious]

i still think they are somewhat uncomparable. I will make some concessions though, i think Star Trek has some higher power generation and numbers. Why? Because to make things more advanced, the producers were very consistent in making very big numbers in their technobabble.

However, here's where things go off. Is Star Trek move advanced than Star Wars? Not necessarily. We can compare raw numbers, but we *can't* compare universes. Because the very laws of physics differ. Anti-matter power generation is obviously an impossible method for wide-spread use in the star wars universe. They come in prepaged gift baskets in the star trek universe. Heavy battleships are capable of moving at near lightspeeds in combat. In Star Wars, Propolsion is limited, again because of no anti-matter, to the conventional, proven science of fusion .

As a result of these very base differing physics, the two universe divulged in technology. It is quite possible star wars has reached the theorized peak of technology. It is no longer possible for them to advance the fundamentals of their technology in any visibly significant way, except making things slightly better, and slightly more efficient with each generation. In star trek, eventually the Enterprise will be blowing up stars with low yield torpedoes. As a result of these physics, Star Wars take up more conventional naval tactics of flanking manuvers, broadsides, etc. etc. Star Trek, however, with its Anti-Matter engines and power generation can move mass-heavy ships with a high level of manuverability allowing for more dogfighting styles.

The real fact here is, if either enters the others universe, their ships implode because the electronics are no longer compatible with the laws of physics. Now, here's the real mind frak. Put them on equal terms. Star Wars is no longer restricted, or the Federation just lost its anti-matter, things change. Lets forget all we know of their technology and look at their civilization. War or no, a Republic of thousands of worlds that has existed for "A thousand generations", is going to have created some really powerful forms of power generation (War is not needed for this development). With this, Any star wars tech developed on this playing field would inherently be vastly superior to the federations. Star Wars would also have a mass of resources unrivaled by the Federation. It would be an open and shut case.

But they dont, and so they can't be compared, not really. I mean, we can compare raw numbers for the hell of it, and star-trek outright wins. Period. Star Wars has some tough crap. The Deathstar outpowers a good majority of star trek stuff. Which is inproportionate to the rest of Star Wars tech but i digress. But a DS wont win a war. Might ruin Earth as a vacaiton hub, though. Star Trek has Technobabble, and big numbers. The power Generation beats wars. Ironicly though, wars has really good defenses. Look at the Clone Wars series. A single venator could probably take a crapload of torpedo shots from a small fleet of federation ships. Problem is, its not going to be returning the favor. Same applies with the next generation destroyer, the ISD. Its all about power generation capabilities, really, when you get to the nitty gritty of it all.

However, military tactics. A Dictatorship in no way hinders military advancement. I think this, for the first time, is just, probably unnoticed by yourself, an inherent bias. Star Trek presents this utopian happy go lucky imagine that the good guys are all smarter and thus can do anything with their intelligence. But the mere fact of the matter is, a couple months in Officer training school and a couple years in college will make you just as good a leader as the next guy, its all about personal ability and skill, which is all genetics and how you were raised in the end. The Persian Empire, the Roman Empire, the German Third Reich, all displayed excellent levels of strategy. Superior strategy, actually. The Empire does not need and probably does not hopelessly torture and oppress its military personel. Lucas as said, and the movie smake it clear, that vader is really the only official killing off officers, and that's more a personal trait of anakin than any sense of Imperial Doctrine.

But i digress, at the end of the day, this is a case of apples and oranges.

[Catamount]

As I was reading, I thought about one particularly intelligent officer within the ranks of the Third Reich, Erwin Rommel. As everyone knows, he was an absolute military genius, perhaps even more competent than his allied counterparts. By the time he was driven out of Africa, it was because he didn't even have German supplies or equipment anymore. I once read that by the end, the vast majority of his armor was captured and hastily repainted allied tanks.

You know what else Rommel was known for? Being scathingly critical of the Nazis, ignoring orders from the Reich, and ultimately being found guilty of connection to the July 20th plot to assassinate Hitler (Valkyrie). Standing orders to kill captures Jewish soldiers were openly ignored where he commanded, and prisoners in general were very humanely treated. He was openly critical of Nazi policy from strategic blunders to their quest for never ending conflict, to their brutality. While his connection to the 7/20 attempt on Hitler's life was never proven, it certainly was never implausible either. THAT is what education can do to an officer in an oppressive regime.

There's another individual not unlike him in Wars. His name was Brenn Tantor. Now I know we're not going into EU here generally, but he's definitely worth noting. He was an imperial officer who quickly rose through the ranks to become a General, until learning that the Imperials killed his father, and ultimately he refused an order (here we go) to kill a large civilian population. In the end he defected to the Alliance. Of course he wasn't the first Imperial soldier to do so, and certainly wasn't the last. Many Imperial soldiers with a half a brain (and the competence that went with it) saw the Empire's brutality and defected. Kyle Katarn, Biggs Darklighter, Derek "Hobbie" Klivian, Tycho Celchu, many of the Empire's best and brightest have a similar story to tell about seeing the Empire's true nature and opposing it. It seems the only competent officer the Empire actually ever seemed to retain was Grand Admiral Thrawn, and that's only because unlike every other intelligent person in the Empire, he hadn't the slightest hint of a conscience. He was an evil man, who if born a few millenia earlier, would have made a fine Sith officer.

Also, no one here has debated the value of training in making good soldiers, but unlike their Imperial counterparts, that's not all Federation officers are. They're diplomats, scientists and explorers. They ARE more educated, and more broadly educated as well. Intended purpose aside, that helps them stay on their feet better, and come up with unconventional solutions more often, because they might employ science rather than simple military tactics to gain the upper hand. Put another way, Star Trek might be filled with technobabble, but Starfleet officers understand and employ it.

For the rest of the points on lack of ability to compare, it's probably true, but that doesn't stop us from having fun trying.

[Zyrious]

As I was reading, I thought about one particularly intelligent officer within the ranks of the Third Reich, Erwin Rommel. As everyone knows, he was an absolute military genius, perhaps even more competent than his allied counterparts. By the time he was driven out of Africa, it was because he didn't even have German supplies or equipment anymore. I once read that by the end, the vast majority of his armor was captured and hastily repainted allied tanks.

You know what else Rommel was known for? Being scathingly critical of the Nazis, ignoring orders from the Reich, and ultimately being found guilty of connection to the July 20th plot to assassinate Hitler (Valkyrie). Standing orders to kill captures Jewish soldiers were openly ignored where he commanded, and prisoners in general were very humanely treated. He was openly critical of Nazi policy from strategic blunders to their quest for never ending conflict, to their brutality. While his connection to the 7/20 attempt on Hitler's life was never proven, it certainly was never implausible either. THAT is what education can do to an officer in an oppressive regime.

There's another individual not unlike him in Wars. His name was Brenn Tantor. Now I know we're not going into EU here generally, but he's definitely worth noting. He was an imperial officer who quickly rose through the ranks to become a General, until learning that the Imperials killed his father, and ultimately he refused an order (here we go) to kill a large civilian population. In the end he defected to the Alliance. Of course he wasn't the first Imperial soldier to do so, and certainly wasn't the last. Many Imperial soldiers with a half a brain (and the competence that went with it) saw the Empire's brutality and defected. Kyle Katarn, Biggs Darklighter, Derek "Hobbie" Klivian, Tycho Celchu, many of the Empire's best and brightest have a similar story to tell about seeing the Empire's true nature and opposing it. It seems the only competent officer the Empire actually ever seemed to retain was Grand Admiral Thrawn, and that's only because unlike every other intelligent person in the Empire, he hadn't the slightest hint of a conscience. He was an evil man, who if born a few millenia earlier, would have made a fine Sith officer.

Also, no one here has debated the value of training in making good soldiers, but unlike their Imperial counterparts, that's not all Federation officers are. They're diplomats, scientists and explorers. They ARE more educated, and more broadly educated as well. Intended purpose aside, that helps them stay on their feet better, and come up with unconventional solutions more often, because they might employ science rather than simple military tactics to gain the upper hand. Put another way, Star Trek might be filled with technobabble, but Starfleet officers understand and employ it.

For the rest of the points on lack of ability to compare, it's probably true, but that doesn't stop us from having fun trying.

You know, knowing more in more fields does not make a better tactician. Jack of all Trades, Master of nones. And you know, there are those who are intelligent that can support the Empire. There are those who are highly intelligent that do infact, support things like Empires, and their practices. People have this, near religious belief that there is this ultimate good and that if you are an intelligent person, that the will of the people, good of the whole, democratic people controlled pacifistic idealism is the only way. a Person may very well be well educated, and yet support the Emperor and his ideals.
Education does not make one more likely to rebel. Opposing ideology does. But if the Government can indoctrinate its populace well enough, you could have master mathmeticians and military geniuses who will lick the dirt off the tyrants bare feet.

But i am really...really tired....stayed up all night. So this probably doesnt make much sense at this point. So, excuse my blathering and just ignore it if it doesnt make sense, i might bring it back up later after rest, though its pretty irrelevant given technological discrepency. Though, i think i did get the whole comparing point across in my previous post, despite my sleep deprivation XD

[Catamount]

Don't worry, you're fine (unless it's just me being tired enough to understand somehow :D). Starfleet officers are certainly jacks of all trades, but aren't masters of none. Far from it. They have varied specialties, ranging from the tactical (Kirk/Riker) to the scientific (Janeway) to the diplomatic (Picard), but Starfleet academy is very, very rigorous, and demands a good grasp of all those things. In many ways, becoming a Starfleet officer is closer in training to become a Jedi than an Imperial officer.

As for indoctrination, remember that the more intelligent and educated the individual, the less indoctrination tends to work. That's why Stalin executed thousands of Polish intellectuals in preparation to occupy the country. That's why Hitler's biggest troubles were always from his brightest men, the independent thinkers, from Claus von Stauffenberg to Erwin Rommel. That's why Pol Pot executed every intellectual in Cambodia that he could find. Unless you really are genuinely evil like Thrawn, then after awhile being an independent thinker is bound to make you question a lot of what the Empire does, especially for those around to see and remember the collapse of the Republic. It's not a matter of training and loyalty if you come to realize the Empire isn't worth your loyalties (which in some cases was facilitated by harm coming the families of officers). In Kyle Katarn's case, he was ordered to hurt Jan Ors (if I remember), and his intelligence and independent nature conflicted with an immoral order, which he not only disobeyed, but did the complete opposite of by helping her to escape.

[LordEnn]

i still think they are somewhat uncomparable. I will make some concessions though, i think Star Trek has some higher power generation and numbers. Why? Because to make things more advanced, the producers were very consistent in making very big numbers in their technobabble.

That's the irritating issue. On several occasions, certain lines of dialogue claim that typical Federation technology is capable of astonishing achievements. However, it rarely demonstrates such abilities. Federation weaponry, for example, hardly ever displays anything above mediocre levels of performance, even in desperate situations. If they can do more, why don't they? It certainly doesn't give them the phenomenal power that some people claim they have.

Anti-matter power generation is obviously an impossible method for wide-spread use in the star wars universe.

They don't require antimatter propulsion systems. They use hypermatter annihilators, as well as fusion reactors, the workings of which are unknown. They're never stated to use nuclear fusion, which, either way, seems extremely unlikely.

They come in prepaged gift baskets in the star trek universe.

Of course. It's the primary propulsion technology of the Federation. :p

Heavy battleships are capable of moving at near lightspeeds in combat.

Neither franchise shows anything like that. :p It would make large battles uninteresting.

In Star Wars, Propolsion is limited, again because of no anti-matter, to the conventional, proven science of fusion.

It isn't. Its technology is simply different. Furthermore, it's never stated that they use nuclear fusion. It could be anything.

The real fact here is, if either enters the others universe, their ships implode because the electronics are no longer compatible with the laws of physics. Now, here's the real mind frak. Put them on equal terms. Star Wars is no longer restricted, or the Federation just lost its anti-matter, things change.

That's true, but you should never strip either franchise of its advantages. That's what will determine the victor of a conflict. If one happens to have more advantages than the other, so be it. That's why it's likelier to win than the other side. :p

But i digress, at the end of the day, this is a case of apples and oranges.

I like apples and oranges. :p

[LordEnn]

In many ways, becoming a Starfleet officer is closer in training to become a Jedi than an Imperial officer.

Of course, since it's phenomenally difficult (beyond comprehension) to become a member of the Jedi Order. :rolleyes: They're totally different. We know little about training standards for the military of the Galactic Empire. In fact, the general brutality and harshness of existence in the Galactic Empire, even for important officials, shows that it's terribly hard to reach anything of value in one's life. In such a civilization, opportunities are exceptionally rare. It isn't a utopia. Chances and capabilities aren't thrust upon typical Imperials. Achievement, or even the ability to compete and survive, would be infinitely harder in an entity like the Galactic Empire. The United Federation of Planets, where all depends on the perfect, uninterrupted functionality of its technology, as well as its political and military systems, can't compare.

Many Imperial soldiers with a half a brain (and the competence that went with it) saw the Empire's brutality and defected.

People aren't born with a plethora of excessively idealistic principles, or an automatic predisposition to universal fairness and equality. Genius can occur in malice and evil as often as it occurs in exaggerated decency. With intense training and continuous application of a specific type of beliefs, an individual can be made to be an absolute follower of his thinking.

Actually, there are few exceptions to that fact. Does the incompetence, stupidity, irrationality, and ineffectiveness of a certain number of Starfleet officers, for example, make the entire organization a collection of intellectually deficient clowns?

Precicely when did this happen.

As far as I can tell, Star Trek Trumped Star Wars at teh box office during the Movie Era and the Original Trilogy.

That has never happened. I can assure you.

Hell, STII:WoK beat Ep 4 by nearly two fold at the box office, and it was made with half the cost of the FIRST star trek movie.

It didn't. :p Even if you cite the second prequel (which performed worse than any of the other Star Wars motion pictures) instead of the original movie, there is no comparison to be made. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan earned $97,000,000. Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones earned $649,000,000. Those are their global profits.

[xlcr]

Those have quasi-scientific explanations. However idiotic you may consider them to be, those explanations qualify the franchise as scientific fiction. For example, the Force, a pervasive energy field, is comparable to the psionic fields that permit telekinesis and telepathy in Star Trek.

That's a subjective observation. One could say, for example, that by being masked as a specific genre, it becomes part of that genre. Similarly, one could reverse the entire evaluation by saying that it's scientific fiction tainted by a number of fantastical elements.

I could easily stigmatize Star Trek in the same manner. Q is deific, and the Prophets of Bajor appear to be divine spirits. The achievement of non-corporeal existence is possible, projections of one's imagination can be translated into matter, and psionic abilities, such as telepathy, are common. The possession of biological organisms by omnipotent ghosts has occurred. Certain beings can even perceive the future, thereby gaining the ability to determine the fate of an individual (or an entire civilization), which is something that followers of Star Trek occasionally claim to be an important factor in determining which genre Star Wars belongs to..

The difference is, I'm not stigmatizing star wars to seem like myth. It actually is myth. It was written with that intention. Lucas wanted to tell a good myth, with the literary path of the hero, but he wanted to tell the myth in such a way that would inspire children of this era to watch it. When I say star wars isn't science fiction, it's not subjective. It was intended to be myth, entirely. It's a space opera. That's not my opinion. Lucas has stated this in numerous interviews. Star Trek, on the other hand, is written to be (very good) science fiction. When I say Luke destroyed the death star with magic, that's not my opinion. It was the direct intent of story... Here are some quotes from lucas about his star wars intentions:

"With Star Wars I consciously set about to re-create myths and the classic mythological motifs. I wanted to use those motifs to deal with issues that exist today."

And another (in an interview with Bill Moyers)...

MOYERS: You're creating a new myth?

LUCAS: I'm telling an old myth in a new way. Each society takes that myth and retells it in a different way, which relates to the particular environment they live in. The motif is the same. It's just that it gets localized. As it turns out, I'm localizing it for the planet. I guess I'm localizing it for the end of the millennium more than I am for any particular place.

Lucas was a big fan of Joseph Campbell's writings (myth and the path of the hero). Star Wars is his reference to that. It's intended to be myth. That's not my subjective opinion.

That said, I fully ackowledge that I'm being a killjoy to the fun of this debate by pointing this out, and I'll stop bringing it up. I just wanted to reply here to explain that I'm not just saying it feels like a story of myth... it was intentionally written as myth.

[Catamount]

Of course, since it's phenomenally difficult (beyond comprehension) to become a member of the Jedi Order. They're totally different. We know little about training standards for the military of the Galactic Empire. In fact, the general brutality and harshness of existence in the Galactic Empire, even for important officials, shows that it's terribly hard to reach anything of value in one's life. In such a civilization, opportunities are exceptionally rare. It isn't a utopia. Chances and capabilities aren't thrust upon typical Imperials. Achievement, or even the ability to compete and survive, would be infinitely harder in an entity like the Galactic Empire. The United Federation of Planets, where all depends on the perfect, uninterrupted functionality of its technology, as well as its political and military systems, can't compare.

What you're not mentioning is that the reason for such difficulty is the lack of tolerance of general education that isn't state approved and independent thinking. It's not as if what you're saying gives some advantage to the Empire by suggesting that only the most qualified and resourceful individuals can fight the way to the top in Imperial ranks due to the harsh environment (Thrawn aside, of course), it's quite the opposite. It just means that the general brain drain of the Empire's rule creates many lost opportunities, in which countless potential officers with great intelligence who would otherwise thrive never go anywhere in life because of the nature of life under the Empire, which then only detracts from the Imperials. You see, the great thing about the Federation isn't that anyone can get anywhere. They can't, really. As with any society, each performs according to their gifts. What the Federation DOES do, is guarantee that if talent is out there, that it will be discovered because the means are present for that individual to develop that talent, again making the Federation generally a bright, more competent group of people.

Most of the people who succeed in the Empire would just be those who are lucky or privileged, and not necessarily those who are talented. It's the same problem with Herbert Spencer's theory of Social Darwinism during the industrial revolution. He never factored in the fact that most people in the inner city don't suffer a lack of success because of a lack of ability, but rather because of a lack of opportunity, especially in the case of poor, 1st generation immigrants (not that their decedents did much better until after the Progressive Movement).

So yes, Star Trek is a Utopian, equal opportunity society, but that just means they don't waste potential talent because of a lack of available opportunities for people to get where they want/need to go with education. Combine that with the broad spectrum of education Starfleet officers are expected to absorb, and a society in which independent thought is embraced rather than quelled, and you get a generally more intelligent, competent group of people.

[Catamount]

Precisely, xlcr. Star Wars isn't fantasy because of a lack of scientific explanation behind the tech, that has nothing to do with it. It's about the THEMES present in Wars, and the presentation of the story. The boy becoming a knight and going to the fortress where the dark villain resides and saving the princess. The use of magic (and it is magic despite the pseudo scientific explanation), the central role of fate. It's a scifi setting, but the themes are ultimately classic fantasy. Now Trek sometimes has a fantasy theme or 2 present (like Sisko and the Prophets), but it's not the absolute sole center of the story.

Of course, this doesn't detract from Star Wars, it's just the way the story is. There's no reason to dislike such a statement unless one has some deeply rooted hatred of fantasy.

[xlcr]

Precisely, xlcr. Star Wars isn't fantasy because of a lack of scientific explanation behind the tech, that has nothing to do with it. It's about the THEMES present in Wars, and the presentation of the story. The boy becoming a knight and going to the fortress where the dark villain resides and saving the princess. The use of magic (and it is magic despite the pseudo scientific explanation), the central role of fate. It's a scifi setting, but the themes are ultimately classic fantasy. Now Trek sometimes has a fantasy theme or 2 present (like Sisko and the Prophets), but it's not the absolute sole center of the story.

Of course, this doesn't detract from Star Wars, it's just the way the story is. There's no reason to dislike such a statement unless one has some deeply rooted hatred of fantasy.

true enough. And for the record, I'm totally a Star Wars fan. The fantasy elements are precisely what I love about it. :)

I love trek as well... it just gives me a different fix for a different mood.

[Catamount]

true enough. And for the record, I'm totally a Star Wars fan. The fantasy elements are precisely what I love about it. :)

I love trek as well... it just gives me a different fix for a different mood.

I'm a Star Wars fan as well. If I wasn't I wouldn't be able to debate it effectively. How else would I name half a dozen Imperial soldiers to defect to the Rebel Alliance? It really is a good story, but you have to take it for what it is, and not what you'd like it to be. Star Wars is a fantasy epic with a technological background. It's a well written fantasy, but that doesn't make it a scifi, and there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it gives something unique to Star Wars as a franchise.

[Zyrious]

There are millions, and some theorize from the thousands of worlds under its service, billions of soldiers and officers under the Emperors direct command. Out of that, half a dozen is not a lot. More US soldiers have committed treason than that. And i have seen no direct evidence that the Emperor supresses Education. If anything, that would go against his very doctrine. He is much a fan of superior technology, superior numbers, and an overall superior number. Many imperial officers in fact personally oversee the testing and construction of highly experimental weapons, and Thrawn was a god of Strategy. If the Empire supressed education, neither/or would be possible. The Emperor knows that a dumb military isnt really an effective military. And dont use rebel hero factor as a way of measuring imperial strength, as has been mentioned Star Wars plays of mythology and fantasy settings, so excluding movie events, Stormtroopers can actually hit their targets and imperials actually use real strategy that works.

Again, some people have this fervant belief that if you are educated, you can only believe in social equality and democratic/republic ideals. This is not true, tand throughout history there are intelligent figures that have more than happily thrown innocents into the fire to achieve their greater ambitions.

If the Emperor wanted to be really tricky, he could supress education to the generla populace. As in, no colleges except for Military Academies. As an FYI, Military Academies (using the US as an example) teach everything a high quality university teaches, but also enforce discipline and military standards. It would be very easy for the Emperor to control the flow of knowledge to his military forces only.

And besides, as i said, Knowing your geology and having diplomatic skills make not a good soldier. I dont know where this perception comes from, but thats what i hate about Star Trek. Making it seem like the current military irl is somehow primitive because we dont teach how to make donuts and do geology. Every soldier has an individual role. Those with electronics education do electronics, those who fight spend months trainin to do so, etc. etc. Everyone has all the knowledge they need to be the very best at what they do. I guess some people are just use to today's liberal colleges where teachers are constantly going off on tangents of how war is evil and only social democracies are acceptable. I hate my college history teacher for that. Point is, education doesnt need to be like that, and it doesnt make a person dumber because they dont promote whats socially accepted here.

Its easily possible for a populace to herald a dictatorship, even its soldiers, with all the education in the world. The Emperor, in ROTS, had won all his powers through popular support from elected officials, after all. It was not until Starkiller started up the rebellion with the very limited number of those who were against the empire, and thus anti-imperial propoganda started popping up, that the Empire had a problem. Dictatorship =/= education supression. Just a supression of opposing ideologies being presented as "right", which wont effect your military performance...

Oh, and for the record, Kyle Katarn betrayed the Empire because Jan Ors got him cornered and showed him a video proving the Empire (Agents of the Empire, Jerec a dark Jedi employed by the Emperor) had his father killed. But even after that Kyle was still unsure of making allegiance to the rebellion, so instead left the Empire and became a hired mercenary, and even then questioned his orders from the rebellion. This eventually lead into him becoming a Jedi outcast, constantly conflicted between good and evil.

[adriancrouton]

Now I'm not saying we should stop but I think you should read this.

http://stardestroyer.net/Empier/Essays/FiveMinutes.html.

That is... if the link work's.

[LordEnn]

Now I'm not saying we should stop but I think you should read this.

http://stardestroyer.net/Empier/Essays/FiveMinutes.html.

That is... if the link work's.

I'd be cautious. Unfortunately, some of Wong's information is questionable.

[sintar07]

Now I'm not saying we should stop but I think you should read this.

http://stardestroyer.net/Empier/Essays/FiveMinutes.html.

That is... if the link work's.

Aren't those numbers from that one bogus book? I heard that the guy who wrote that book was an active participant in discussions not unlike this one long before he ever set pen to paper. I also heard that he was rabidly against Star Trek winning in any conflict. And lo and behold, he publishes a book filled with ridiculous numbers in favor of Star Wars. Frankly, I'd be willing to bet that that one book is half the reason Ilithi banned books from the discussion in the first place. Because it's not canon. It's bogus biased material made for the sole purpose of allowing Star Wars to win a fight more easilly.

[Zyrious]

Aren't those numbers from that one bogus book? I heard that the guy who wrote that book was an active participant in discussions not unlike this one long before he ever set pen to paper. I also heard that he was rabidly against Star Trek winning in any conflict. And lo and behold, he publishes a book filled with ridiculous numbers in favor of Star Wars. Frankly, I'd be willing to bet that that one book is half the reason Ilithi banned books from the discussion in the first place. Because it's not canon. It's bogus biased material made for the sole purpose of allowing Star Wars to win a fight more easilly.

While i'm not one to place doubt as i havent even been using his numbers, is there any actual proof of the accusations against the author? And has any proof/links been provided stating the lack of acceptence of his document within SW Lore? I think those are some pretty important questions before you toss any numbers out, even if you dont like them.

Just sayin... Either way, the universes of the 2 franchises are pretty uncomparable as it is. It'd be impossible for them to actually fight eachother, all you can really do is compare raw statistics on the numbers, which are pretty useless when outside the context and laws of physics that apply to them.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

While i'm not one to place doubt as i havent even been using his numbers, is there any actual proof of the accusations against the author? And has any proof/links been provided stating the lack of acceptence of his document within SW Lore? I think those are some pretty important questions before you toss any numbers out, even if you dont like them.

This link is particularly interesting (http://www.st-v-sw.net/Warsiegroup.html). It's a bit long-winded and takes a round-about way to get to the point, but it's an interesting read, nevertheless. I don't have time to really do any digging on the matter (term finals are due tonight... >_<), but it doesn't take long to find evidence that Curtis Saxton was involved in the Wars debates long before he wrote the Episode II ICS book, and that he was firmly rooted in the same camp as Mike Wong & Co.

[Zyrious]

This link is particularly interesting (http://www.st-v-sw.net/Warsiegroup.html). It's a bit long-winded and takes a round-about way to get to the point, but it's an interesting read, nevertheless. I don't have time to really do any digging on the matter (term finals are due tonight... >_<), but it doesn't take long to find evidence that Curtis Saxton was involved in the Wars debates long before he wrote the Episode II ICS book, and that he was firmly rooted in the same camp as Mike Wong & Co.

I read your link, and it doesnt seem to make me question Curtis Saxton. What i mean his, his facts. Upon my own research and digging really deep into the oft hard to catch source links that actually have some sources, it shows me that he obviously didnt have much to work with when creating the ICS, thus bringing the figures into question. It does show that he had very minimal involvement in the debates, and actually reading the links he provided instead of just his ad hominem in the link you gave me, the vast majority of his posts were well constructed. The vast majority of that link seems to be Ad Hominem, the fact there is a page at all going after the debaters, rather than the debate, seems to be very telling of that website. It is very obvious that that website is heavily ST oriented, given that there is an attack on SW debaters (This is called Ad Hominem, it is never an acceptable form of debate in uni).

It does, however, show that Curtis Saxton would have motive to inflate his numbers. Which answers one of my questions. That site also seems to make heavy use of the "Association Fallacy", in tha tbecause he has an association with mike wong, the quality of his arguments are thus inherently similiar and affected by this. It is called a Fallacy for a reason. It would have seemed more unbiased, and actually been a lot quicker. if he had just noted the references to wong in the ICS itself. This does not, however, indicate how much of the numbers are affected by them, however. making it relatively a moot point. Just say why you think the numbers are wrong, not why you think the people themselves are wrong.... you were right, long winded.

While i'm not saying that the statement "The ICS is inflated" is wrong, what i am stated is that that website is definetly very biased towards ST. With lots, and lots, and lots of Ad Hominem. I guess my point is, that site is like the ST version of Stardestroyer.net. A bit nicer looking, though. Maybe thats just because of the background colors though.

[LordEnn]

I'm a Star Wars fan as well. If I wasn't I wouldn't be able to debate it effectively. How else would I name half a dozen Imperial soldiers to defect to the Rebel Alliance? It really is a good story, but you have to take it for what it is, and not what you'd like it to be. Star Wars is a fantasy epic with a technological background.

No. It's scientific fiction that rewrote a traditional, fantastical story. Due to that, it isn't fantasy. Its themes, while they may have originated in typical fantasy, are altered to qualify as scientific fiction. At most, you could consider it to be speculative fiction, but not fantasy.

Star Wars isn't fantasy because of a lack of scientific explanation behind the tech, that has nothing to do with it. It's about the THEMES present in Wars, and the presentation of the story. The boy becoming a knight and going to the fortress where the dark villain resides and saving the princess.

No.

"A farm boy finds a message in a bottle. The message is from a princess that was captured by an evil wizard. The farm boy finds a good wizard, and together they hire a pirate to take them on his ship to the evil wizard's fortress. They rescue the princess, the good wizard is killed by the evil wizard in a sword fight. The evil wizard's fortress can't be penetrated, so the farm boy (discovering that he too is a wizard), looks deep within himself and destroys the fortress... with magic."

That's fantasy.

"A boy working on a moisture farm locates a hidden recording in the memory banks of a droid (a sentient robot). It is a message, sent by the heir to the throne of a (planetary) constitutional monarchy. She had been captured by a corrupt (evil) Force-sensitive. With the help of an exiled Jedi, they recruit a smuggler to transport them (using his interstellar craft) to an enormous military space station belonging to an oppressive galactic civilization.

When they arrive, they rescue the heir to the throne of the constitutional monarchy. Soon after that, the elderly Jedi engages the Sith (malicious Force-sensitive) with a lightsaber, which is a blade of looped energy. The space station's defenses are extremely powerful, and it has few vulnerabilities. Realizing this, the boy (now a pilot in the ranks of an interstellar military resistance) fires two proton torpedoes (explosives) at one of the space station's weakest points. Then, he utilizes his Force-sensitivity. By using telekinesis, he directs the torpedoes towards a small opening in the space station."

That's based on fantasy.

:rolleyes:

There's a difference.

The use of magic (and it is magic despite the pseudo scientific explanation), the central role of fate.

Certainly. The Force, despite having a quasi-scientific explanation (being a pervasive energy field), is magic. Similarly, although they have quasi-scientific explanations, the psionic fields that permit telepathy and psychokinesis in Star Trek must be magic. The Q, even with their weak quasi-scientific explanation, are deities, and those don't belong in scientific fiction. The Prophets of Bajor are divine spirits, since you consider quasi-scientific explanations to be irrelevant, and those don't belong in scientific fiction. To achieve incorporeal existence is to release one's soul from the body, which is totally fantastical.

... story...


Jean-Luc Picard is a noble commander, placed on trial by a god of trickery. As a mighty crusader that loyally serves his kingdom, he sails throughout our world, preaching his extraordinary message of unity and peace. Eventually, he is judged by that god, and is found to be worthy of existence.

Benjamin Sisko, a man with a predetermined fate, and whose creation was planned by a collective of benevolent spirits, becomes a prophet. These divine spirits guide him on his path. At some point, a great battle between the good and the evil rages. Soon after that, the light defeats the darkness. Benjamin Sisko, a great warrior and a messenger, or tool, of those divine entities, fulfills his destiny. His soul then departs to exist with these divine ghosts.

;)

Most stories can be transformed into fantastical ballads.

Now Trek sometimes has a fantasy theme or 2 present (like Sisko and the Prophets), but it's not the absolute sole center of the story.

The role of the Q is central to Picard's series, and the Prophets of Bajor are one of the main themes of Sisko's series.

It's a space opera.

That's a subgenre of scientific fiction.

That's not my opinion. Lucas has stated this in numerous interviews.

I've addressed that in the text below.

Star Trek, on the other hand, is written to be (very good) science fiction.

Star Trek masks its various whimsical aspects with the vehement application of extremely large quantities of fake science. If Yoda had organized a conference to discuss the precise scientific workings and methods of the Force, I'm certain that you would have been happier. Palpatine may have even abandoned his malign ways to attend such a meeting.

When I say Luke destroyed the death star with magic, that's not my opinion.

No. That's your opinion. The Force was created to be a mysterious power, based on magic. However, you don't seem to understand that the Force isn't magic. It was invented to resemble it, but it was made differently in order for it to qualify as a quasi-scientific element of scientific, or speculative, fiction. It is, quite honestly, that simple.

It was the direct intent of story

The intent of the story was to present the Force as a quasi-scientific replacement for magic, since magic wouldn't be suitable for a franchise with such a setting.

Here are some quotes from lucas about his star wars intentions:

"With Star Wars I consciously set about to re-create myths and the classic mythological motifs. I wanted to use those motifs to deal with issues that exist today."

He did that. He recreated classical fantastical ideas and myths by modifying them to suit scientific, or speculative, fiction.

And another (in an interview with Bill Moyers)...

MOYERS: You're creating a new myth?

LUCAS: I'm telling an old myth in a new way. Each society takes that myth and retells it in a different way, which relates to the particular environment they live in. The motif is the same. It's just that it gets localized. As it turns out, I'm localizing it for the planet. I guess I'm localizing it for the end of the millennium more than I am for any particular place.

He reformed an old myth, giving it the capability to exist, and even perform a significant role, in scientific fiction.

That said, I fully ackowledge that I'm being a killjoy to the fun of this debate by pointing this out, and I'll stop bringing it up.

Not at all. Feel free to continue. :p Either way, I don't see why his intentions would be important. It is what results from those intentions that matters.

What you're not mentioning is that the reason for such difficulty is the lack of tolerance of general education that isn't state approved and independent thinking.

Actually, independent though and action in relevant aspects and fields are plentiful. Imperial officers are only given the extensive education that is required for their vocation. They are tacticians and leaders. They're specialized. An endless understanding of inconsequential inanities is unnecessary. The Galactic Empire does whatever it must. If a need for highly trained scientists arises, they will appear. Due to the more generalized knowledge of Starfleet officers, however, Imperials would be likelier to lose a universalized debate. :p

It's not as if what you're saying gives some advantage to the Empire by suggesting that only the most qualified and resourceful individuals can fight the way to the top in Imperial ranks due to the harsh environment (Thrawn aside, of course), it's quite the opposite. It just means that the general brain drain of the Empire's rule creates many lost opportunities, in which countless potential officers with great intelligence who would otherwise thrive never go anywhere in life because of the nature of life under the Empire...

The Galactic Empire is vast. It maintains a titanic military, which requires countless qualified officers. While many talented individuals are certain to achieve nothing due to the hostile nature of their civilization, it seems that those that serve as officers in the Empire must be capable of more than the servants of the Federation.

Starfleet provides opportunities for the vast majority of able volunteers. If these volunteers succeed, they progress. Generally, unless they somehow betray the Federation, they remain successful. Imperial officers, on the other hand, must maintain much higher levels of development, cunning, and capability in their professions. If they fail to do so, they'll be replaced. There is no tolerance for the weak. As cruel as that may sound, that seems to be the way of the Galactic Empire.

You see, the great thing about the Federation isn't that anyone can get anywhere. They can't, really. As with any society, each performs according to their gifts. What the Federation DOES do, is guarantee that if talent is out there, that it will be discovered because the means are present for that individual to develop that talent, again making the Federation generally a bright, more competent group of people.

The Federation offers everybody with potential a chance to create a career in whichever subject they wish to develop. The Galactic Empire only employs the people it requires, and those people must excel in order to remain employed.

Most of the people who succeed in the Empire would just be those who are lucky or privileged, and not necessarily those who are talented.

If they aren't capable, they won't succeed. They'll be replaced. They must be good at what they do.

So yes, Star Trek is a Utopian, equal opportunity society, but that just means they don't waste potential talent because of a lack of available opportunities for people to get where they want/need to go with education.

As I said earlier, the Galactic Empire only employs the people it requires. If they aren't required, they'll have no opportunities. Potential talent is wasted because it isn't needed. That doesn't lower the effectiveness of its military, but it offers much less freedom for its citizens to pursue the careers that they wish to.

[Catamount]

There are millions, and some theorize from the thousands of worlds under its service, billions of soldiers and officers under the Emperors direct command. Out of that, half a dozen is not a lot. More US soldiers have committed treason than that. And i have seen no direct evidence that the Emperor supresses Education. If anything, that would go against his very doctrine. He is much a fan of superior technology, superior numbers, and an overall superior number. Many imperial officers in fact personally oversee the testing and construction of highly experimental weapons, and Thrawn was a god of Strategy. If the Empire supressed education, neither/or would be possible. The Emperor knows that a dumb military isnt really an effective military. And dont use rebel hero factor as a way of measuring imperial strength, as has been mentioned Star Wars plays of mythology and fantasy settings, so excluding movie events, Stormtroopers can actually hit their targets and imperials actually use real strategy that works.

Again, some people have this fervant belief that if you are educated, you can only believe in social equality and democratic/republic ideals. This is not true, tand throughout history there are intelligent figures that have more than happily thrown innocents into the fire to achieve their greater ambitions.

If the Emperor wanted to be really tricky, he could supress education to the generla populace. As in, no colleges except for Military Academies. As an FYI, Military Academies (using the US as an example) teach everything a high quality university teaches, but also enforce discipline and military standards. It would be very easy for the Emperor to control the flow of knowledge to his military forces only.

And besides, as i said, Knowing your geology and having diplomatic skills make not a good soldier. I dont know where this perception comes from, but thats what i hate about Star Trek. Making it seem like the current military irl is somehow primitive because we dont teach how to make donuts and do geology. Every soldier has an individual role. Those with electronics education do electronics, those who fight spend months trainin to do so, etc. etc. Everyone has all the knowledge they need to be the very best at what they do. I guess some people are just use to today's liberal colleges where teachers are constantly going off on tangents of how war is evil and only social democracies are acceptable. I hate my college history teacher for that. Point is, education doesnt need to be like that, and it doesnt make a person dumber because they dont promote whats socially accepted here.

Its easily possible for a populace to herald a dictatorship, even its soldiers, with all the education in the world. The Emperor, in ROTS, had won all his powers through popular support from elected officials, after all. It was not until Starkiller started up the rebellion with the very limited number of those who were against the empire, and thus anti-imperial propoganda started popping up, that the Empire had a problem. Dictatorship =/= education supression. Just a supression of opposing ideologies being presented as "right", which wont effect your military performance...

Oh, and for the record, Kyle Katarn betrayed the Empire because Jan Ors got him cornered and showed him a video proving the Empire (Agents of the Empire, Jerec a dark Jedi employed by the Emperor) had his father killed. But even after that Kyle was still unsure of making allegiance to the rebellion, so instead left the Empire and became a hired mercenary, and even then questioned his orders from the rebellion. This eventually lead into him becoming a Jedi outcast, constantly conflicted between good and evil.

I know you're supposed to be tired, but I also KNOW you're capable of seeing the sheer idiocy behind that argument. Saying I can only come up with half a dozen people out of the whole Empire would only be a valid or sensible argument if the Empire actually existed, and had a pool of billions or trillions to pick from. Yes, Star Wars describes an Empire that presides over many world, and has a vast military, but the story does not specifically center on billions upon billions of people, tell each of their life stories at length. It focuses on a few, and out of that few it's very easy to come up with multiple people right off the top of one's head who have defected from the Empire, which represents a significant number of the people told of in the STORY of the Empire, especially given that many of them were either prominent, especially talented, or both. Whether or not they're a significant portion of this fictional Empire as a whole is completely irrelevant, as there isn't a big enough pool of people to draw from in the story for them to be in the first place.

You're familiar with logical fallacy, that's good to see as many people here don't seem to be. That said, you should know better than to make that argument. If I'm not mistaken, that's an undistributed middle fallacy.

Also, your story is a little off with Katarn. I don't own Dark Forces, so I'm a bit spotty there, but if you play through JK II Jedi Outcast, it specifically begins with him STILL working for the Rebels/New Republic, and a conversation which suggests that they never really ceased being agents for that organization (and knowing Mon Mothma rather well). He also never really became an "outcast" to anyone, and in fact had an obvious continued relationship and friendship with Skywalker, who he was on a first name basis with in JKII. What was stated is that he had simply decided to give up his life as a Jedi, and gave up both the use of his lightsaber, and the maintenance of his ties to The Force. Of course after JK II he seemed to permanently remain a Jedi as we see him training new ones in JK III (which, for the record, could actually be called Dark Forces 4, Jedi Knight 3, Jedi Outcast II, Jedi Academy :D).

Ahhhhh Lord Enn. It isn't just the existence of fantasy themes in Wars, it's the fact that they are absolutely central to the story. If you removed Q and the Prophets from TNG and DS9, the base story would still be intact. It wouldn't be as much fun, but it would be otherwise altered. If you removed the fantasy themes from Wars though, the entire story essentially ceases to exist for several of the films, and the overall story wouldn't work.

Trek is about exploring new worlds, meeting new civilizations, and usually criticizing some facet of 20th/21st century society in the process. Q and the Prophets are not central to this base story. In fact, Q's powers are not even central to his role in Trek outside of the humor they provide (now don't put your fingers to your keyboard yet, let me explain). Q isn't like the force because Q is a plot device that's there to further add criticism to modern society, and also to show the evolution of man kind in the 24th, hence the "trial" that was so central to the show. The Force exists as magic just for the sake of it, though. You could actually change Q's nature significantly to say, just be a member of some very advanced race who criticized Picard (even if it'd be harder to write the story, and not as much fun). Hell, you could take all of Q's advanced nature away entirely and just make him nothing but a figure of Picard's imagination, and you could still accomplish Q's essential goal within TNG (he wasn't central to DS9 or Voy in the least). The Force is not like that, however. Altering it's nature would directly undermine the story.

Now I'm not sure what your obsession with this point is. I don't really care what Wars is, and if I saw good reasoning that went in either direction, I'd accept it. You, on the hand, seem to take great personal offense at the idea of Wars being fantasy. I didn't even want that to become a central point of this whole debate (in fact, no one but you did, it seems), but you keep insisting and making 50%+ of your long posts about the sheer blasphemy of calling Wars fantasy.

Also, you're again basically missing the point of what I was saying about the UFP. The democratizing organizations within the UFP that lend opportunity are a good way for the Federation to discover talent. You say the Empire only takes the talent it needs, tell me, how do they make determinations about the most qualified individuals? Even if the Empire is some just, fair institution that cares for its citizens and their needs and provides good basic education for all of it's citizens (hah?), it still doesn't to the extent the UFP does, and so there are still that many more undiscovered individuals.

In fact, I'll break the same rule of this debate again and delve into EU (in another case where it's heavily supported by onscreen evidence), where it was stated that Thrawn was the only non-human Grand Admiral, because normal Imperial rules held a human-only policy that high in the command structure. Now, if that was only EU, that would be one thing, but think about this, how many non-human Imperial officers have you seen in all 3 original wars movies? How many Imperial soldiers of any kind have you seen? I'm not aware of any, though you're free to make me aware of any exceptions.

Now you could try chalk this up to budget, but you wouldn't get far because the fact is there's a stark contrast from the multi-racial Rebel Alliance to the Human-only Empire. The only non-humans I ever even saw aboard an Imperial vessel -discounting Chewy on the stolen shuttle :D- were bounty hunters in Episode 5. I'm sure that contrast was intentional. So, you want to talk about even more wasted/undiscovered talent? Not only does the Empire no doubt have fewer democratizing organizations to create opportunity for latent talent to grow into something tangible, but they also deprive themselves of any bright, non-human sentient.

Again, this shows that the way to rise through the Empire is different from the UFP because the latter requires only talent, while the former has far more emphasis on luck and privilege. Any way you slice it, the UFP is purely talent driven, while the Empire is not, making the UFP more talented, unless by some incredible stroke of luck, all the best potential officers just happen to be lucky, privileged humans :rolleyes:.

[Zyrious]

I know you're supposed to be tired, but I also KNOW you're capable of seeing the sheer idiocy behind that argument. Saying I can only come up with half a dozen people out of the whole Empire would only be a valid or sensible argument if the Empire actually existed, and had a pool of billions or trillions to pick from. Yes, Star Wars describes an Empire that presides over many world, and has a vast military, but the story does not specifically center on billions upon billions of people, tell each of their life stories at length. It focuses on a few, and out of that few it's very easy to come up with multiple people right off the top of one's head who have defected from the Empire, which represents a significant number of the people told of in the STORY of the Empire, especially given that many of them were either prominent, especially talented, or both. Whether or not they're a significant portion of this fictional Empire as a whole is completely irrelevant, as there isn't a big enough pool of people to draw from in the story for them to be in the first place.

You're familiar with logical fallacy, that's good to see as many people here don't seem to be. That said, you should know better than to make that argument. If I'm not mistaken, that's an undistributed middle fallacy.

Also, your story is a little off with Katarn. I don't own Dark Forces, so I'm a bit spotty there, but if you play through JK II Jedi Outcast, it specifically begins with him STILL working for the Rebels/New Republic, and a conversation which suggests that they never really ceased being agents for that organization (and knowing Mon Mothma rather well). He also never really became an "outcast" to anyone, and in fact had an obvious continued relationship and friendship with Skywalker, who he was on a first name basis with in JKII. What was stated is that he had simply decided to give up his life as a Jedi, and gave up both the use of his lightsaber, and the maintenance of his ties to The Force. Of course after JK II he seemed to permanently remain a Jedi as we see him training new ones in JK III (which, for the record, could actually be called Dark Forces 4, Jedi Knight 3, Jedi Outcast II, Jedi Academy :D).

Ahhhhh Lord Enn. It isn't just the existence of fantasy themes in Wars, it's the fact that they are absolutely central to the story. If you removed Q and the Prophets from TNG and DS9, the base story would still be intact. It wouldn't be as much fun, but it would be otherwise altered. If you removed the fantasy themes from Wars though, the entire story essentially ceases to exist for several of the films, and the overall story wouldn't work.

Trek is about exploring new worlds, meeting new civilizations, and usually criticizing some facet of 20th/21st century society in the process. Q and the Prophets are not central to this base story. In fact, Q's powers are not even central to his role in Trek outside of the humor they provide (now don't put your fingers to your keyboard yet, let me explain). Q isn't like the force because Q is a plot device that's there to further add criticism to modern society, and also to show the evolution of man kind in the 24th, hence the "trial" that was so central to the show. The Force exists as magic just for the sake of it, though. You could actually change Q's nature significantly to say, just be a member of some very advanced race who criticized Picard (even if it'd be harder to write the story, and not as much fun). Hell, you could take all of Q's advanced nature away entirely and just make him nothing but a figure of Picard's imagination, and you could still accomplish Q's essential goal within TNG (he wasn't central to DS9 or Voy in the least). The Force is not like that, however. Altering it's nature would directly undermine the story.

Now I'm not sure what your obsession with this point is. I don't really care what Wars is, and if I saw good reasoning that went in either direction, I'd accept it. You, on the hand, seem to take great personal offense at the idea of Wars being fantasy. I didn't even want that to become a central point of this whole debate (in fact, no one but you did, it seems), but you keep insisting and making 50%+ of your long posts about the sheer blasphemy of calling Wars fantasy.

Also, you're again basically missing the point of what I was saying about the UFP. The democratizing organizations within the UFP that lend opportunity are a good way for the Federation to discover talent. You say the Empire only takes the talent it needs, tell me, how do they make determinations about the most qualified individuals? Even if the Empire is some just, fair institution that cares for its citizens and their needs and provides good basic education for all of it's citizens (hah?), it still doesn't to the extent the UFP does, and so there are still that many more undiscovered individuals.

In fact, I'll break the same rule of this debate again and delve into EU (in another case where it's heavily supported by onscreen evidence), where it was stated that Thrawn was the only non-human Grand Admiral, because normal Imperial rules held a human-only policy that high in the command structure. Now, if that was only EU, that would be one thing, but think about this, how many non-human Imperial officers have you seen in all 3 original wars movies? How many Imperial soldiers of any kind have you seen? I'm not aware of any, though you're free to make me aware of any exceptions.

Now you could try chalk this up to budget, but you wouldn't get far because the fact is there's a stark contrast from the multi-racial Rebel Alliance to the Human-only Empire. The only non-humans I ever even saw aboard an Imperial vessel -discounting Chewy on the stolen shuttle :D- were bounty hunters in Episode 5. I'm sure that contrast was intentional. So, you want to talk about even more wasted/undiscovered talent? Not only does the Empire no doubt have fewer democratizing organizations to create opportunity for latent talent to grow into something tangible, but they also deprive themselves of any bright, non-human sentient.

Again, this shows that the way to rise through the Empire is different from the UFP because the latter requires only talent, while the former has far more emphasis on luck and privilege. Any way you slice it, the UFP is purely talent driven, while the Empire is not, making the UFP more talented, unless by some incredible stroke of luck, all the best potential officers just happen to be lucky, privileged humans :rolleyes:.

Actually, my story isnt off with Katarn. In Dark Forces, he was spotty on working for the rebellion and always acted as such with Mon Mothma in their briefings after hiring Katarn. In Jedi Knight 1, Katarn was focused more on getting revenge against the man who murdered his father, he had hired IG-88 to find out where Jerec was but then IG-88 betrayed kyle and he was forced into the situation with the Valley of the Jedi. in its expansion, he actually did fall to the Dark Side. Which is why afterwards he gave up the force, he felt he wasnt a good Jedi and never could be. In Jedi Outcast, after completing the Trial, Katarn admits to luke that he makes no promises of not falling to the Dark-Side, and that he used the Valley of the Jedi to regain his connection to the force so that he could inact revenge against Desann, and that that was his primary concern over anything else.

And, as i cant say there arent many Imperials who defected, you can not say that there are. It works both ways. If i poll San Fancisco and the majority are Democrat, i can not then infer that the majority of the country is Democrat, and say "Well its all thats presented to me". A single sample is not indicitive of anything, so the whole point is moot.

And i think you really need to elaborate on how the Imperial Military is only "Luck and Privelage". This is not shown in any of the G-level or even O-level canon. Its just that they deprive Alien species of High Rank. This does not, however, affect the Human Species. Which they are in abundance of (The most numerous species in the SW galaxy). And again, having a high level of knowledge in Science and History and Diplomacy does not in any way affect or contribute to Military Performance. I think anyone here with a modicum of military knowledge or experience knows this. I think you need to adress that point as well. If anything, it actually makes you worse. In the Military, you get BMT, and then several months of training in your field, and then if your an officer, several months in OTS. This is ontop of your previous 4 year (need a bachelors to become an officer in the US military, likely the same equivelant in SW) advanced education. Starfleet trains officers in a wide variety of subjects in just 4 years, also mashing in Starship UI handling, Command training, rank structure, regulations, and combat training, with the rest of normal advanced education. Its made clear that this takes the place of normal college. The Starfleet academy acts as College and BMT and Training School all in one. Thats a bit much for 4 years, and obviously dillutes the training, and little of which is dedicated training to military operations.

[Catamount]

So let me get your argument straight here for a second. I pull a significant portion of in-story characters (considering it was a 5 second reference off the top of my head of high profile people), and you say "well that makes no difference, in the imaginary bowels of the non-existent galactic Empire, I'm sure the vast majority remained loyal". Based on the only sample we have, this proves to be untrue. This isn't San Francisco vs the US. These are the only characters who have ever existed in Star Wars. The rest are just a postulated number for the overall population of an Empire that doesn't exist. It also doesn't make the comment about me "only" being able to find 5 people any more intelligent. Now you if had phrased it as a poor sample size the first time, at least that argument would make sense, but your earlier comment was still just a shameless undistributed middle fallacy injected into an already shaky point that you were trying to make.

But... just to make you happy and settle some petty semantics here: ------------>*IF*<------------ the characters seen, both major and minor, are typical in their background and thinking to the galactic community as a whole (Luke aside, but I never talked about him), then the Empire looses a lot of good talent to brutality. There, happy? :rolleyes: Since the entire point of the Rebellion is that it consists of a very diverse group of people, I think there's a fair chance that these people do. There was nothing special about Biggs or Hobbie aside from their flying ability. Tycho had his family an Alderaan, true. Guess what though, Alderaan had a greater population than one family, and it stands to reason Tycho wasn't the only one. He certainly wasn't the only one to be personally affected by Imperial brutality (though his story is a particularly potent example).

Your point with alien species is also a little ridiculous to be honest. A smaller pool means less talent for a given force. If I want 1,000 people that are as talented as possible for a given task, am I going to limit my search to my college of 70,000 people when I have the option to search the entire US? According to your logic I'll get just as good of a result. Sure, there might be people living on the other side of the nation that are better than anyone I could pick here, and the odds of all the best people in the US being in NC are only one in about 31, to say nothing for my school (where the odds drop to one in 4143). Would you suggest that the search for US Olympians should now only take place in Boston, MA? Afterall, there's MORE than enough people there to pick from, right? I'm sorry if this is sounding snide, but your smart enough to bring better arguments here than these, even if the effort to present an argument is appreciated (not enough people on Wars' side here). Now by my logic, you could claim that the Empire has a larger pool despite their ban on non-humans because it's a larger universe, but that argument fails because their military is at LEAST proportionately larger compared to the larger galaxy, and in fact might be larger for a given populace than the UFP (given the means of rule), which makes that pool even smaller for them still.

As far as ability, I've seen no evidence that there's a lack of military ability within Starfleet officers. Is it a lot to cram in over 4 years? Yeah, it is, but I have to wonder if the average person in Wars complains about having to learn calculus when their 7 or 8 years old like a child in TNG did (better learning methods). Now, I'll admit, that does stretch plausibility just a tad (in other words quite a bit), but then so does Wars' use of manually targeted turrets anti-ship in an age of computers, so both stories are good at stretching things a bit. What's more, it takes a long time to advance as a Starfleet officers because a lot of learning is done in the field. By contrast, I see a lot of very young captains and admirals in the Empire, and they just execute officers pretty much frivolously, which is how advancement seems to take place. Okay, okay, in fairness Vader could be somewhat unique there, though I've read that Thrawn also executes people for instances of incompetence, and he was stated to be very progressive in his treatment of officers. This also brings up another question about Imperial incompetence. How are people supposed to learn from mistakes? A death threat makes them no less likely to commit them (though it might make them more likely with all the added stress), but it does make sure that if a mistake is made they can't improve next time. That there isn't necessarily a stated advantage or Trek so much as just an inquiry about Wars. I'd seriously like to know.

[Zyrious]

So let me get your argument straight here for a second. I pull a significant portion of in-story characters (considering it was a 5 second reference off the top of my head of high profile people), and you say "well that makes no difference, in the imaginary bowels of the non-existent galactic Empire, I'm sure the vast majority remained loyal". Based on the only sample we have, this proves to be untrue. This isn't San Francisco vs the US. These are the only characters who have ever existed in Star Wars. The rest are just a postulated number for the overall population of an Empire that doesn't exist. It also doesn't make the comment about me "only" being able to find 5 people any more intelligent. Now you if had phrased it as a poor sample size the first time, at least that argument would make sense, but your earlier comment was still just a shameless undistributed middle fallacy injected into an already shaky point that you were trying to make.

But... just to make you happy and settle some petty semantics here: ------------>*IF*<------------ the characters seen, both major and minor, are typical in their background and thinking to the galactic community as a whole (Luke aside, but I never talked about him), then the Empire looses a lot of good talent to brutality. There, happy? :rolleyes: Since the entire point of the Rebellion is that it consists of a very diverse group of people, I think there's a fair chance that these people do. There was nothing special about Biggs or Hobbie aside from their flying ability. Tycho had his family an Alderaan, true. Guess what though, Alderaan had a greater population than one family, and it stands to reason Tycho wasn't the only one. He certainly wasn't the only one to be personally affected by Imperial brutality (though his story is a particularly potent example).

Your point with alien species is also a little ridiculous to be honest. A smaller pool means less talent for a given force. If I want 1,000 people that are as talented as possible for a given task, am I going to limit my search to my college of 70,000 people when I have the option to search the entire US? According to your logic I'll get just as good of a result. Sure, there might be people living on the other side of the nation that are better than anyone I could pick here, and the odds of all the best people in the US being in NC are only one in about 31, to say nothing for my school (where the odds drop to one in 4143). Would you suggest that the search for US Olympians should now only take place in Boston, MA? Afterall, there's MORE than enough people there to pick from, right? I'm sorry if this is sounding snide, but your smart enough to bring better arguments here than these, even if the effort to present an argument is appreciated (not enough people on Wars' side here).

As far as ability, I've seen no evidence that there's a lack of military ability within Starfleet officers. Is it a lot to cram in over 4 years? Yeah, it is, but I have to wonder if the average person in Wars complains about having to learn calculus when their 7 or 8 years old like a child in TNG did (better learning methods). Now, I'll admit, that does stretch plausibility just a tad (in other words quite a bit), but then so does Wars' use of manually targeted turrets anti-ship in an age of computers, so both stories are good at stretching things a bit. What's more, it takes a long time to advance as a Starfleet officers because a lot of learning is done in the field. By contrast, I see a lot of very young captains and admirals in the Empire, and they just execute officers pretty much frivolously, which is how advancement seems to take place. Okay, okay, in fairness Vader could be somewhat unique there, though I've read that Thrawn also executes people for instances of incompetence, and he was stated to be very progressive in his treatment of officers. This also brings up another question about Imperial incompetence. How are people supposed to learn from mistakes? A death threat makes them no less likely to commit them (though it might make them more likely with all the added stress), but it does make sure that if a mistake is made they can't improve next time. That there isn't necessarily a stated advantage or Trek so much as just an inquiry about Wars. I'd seriously like to know.

Presumably, the officer that takes his place is suppose to take note of his mistake and improve upon it. Or so one would assume from what is depicted in the OT. Also, by the way, a good portion of the higher ranks are probably carry-overs from the republic. As seen in the Clone Wars series, there are a good portion of Officers who are not clones, and these obviously formed the initial base of the command structure when the Empire was formed. They would not know any of the effects on education from the Empire, though even then i doubt its major.

Thats another consideration, even if you decide to use only the Empire from the movies and not in between Ep 3 and IV, its only been 20 years, thats not exactly alot for any changes to education to have gone through, and then to have had an effect on your pool of potential recruits. Now, if we were talking about an Empire that has had a reign of several more decades, then maybe. As it is, every single high ranking officer will have recieved his education during the Republic era.

As to my first comment about numbers of traitors, that was off, yes, pretend i never made it. But the point stands. You cant use a pool of major characters as a representative of the whole of the Empire. Just because the whole of the Empire is not shown, does not mean it does not exist, that is rediculous to even say. Major characters have gone traitor, that does not in any way indicate if it is the norm, or a rarity. It could, in which case it would harm the empire. Or it could not. We just can't make that kind of determination. Keep in mind, not all rebels are traitors, they have their own academy (Luke states in ANH he wanted to go to the academy to become a rebel pilot). Of course, the rebellion has always stated it is very heavily outnumbered, and even then it gets its own pool of recruits from recruiting civilians. And the Empire is in control of a crapload of planets. So one would assume, if any major amount of officers were going rebel, the Rebels would have a much larger recruit base, especially when officers are concerned. As it is, they are promoting people like Han Solo and Calrissian to Generals. That seems to be indicative of their status.

Also, just an aside, as to kids in the federation learning calculus as kids. We really can't say anything about what the general populace of the republic/Empire learns. We really do not know. However, one might presume that after over 15,000 years of existence in the space age, basic education is a lot more advanced than it is on Earth at the moment. We just dont know though.

[Catamount]

Presumably, the officer that takes his place is suppose to take note of his mistake and improve upon it. Or so one would assume from what is depicted in the OT. Also, by the way, a good portion of the higher ranks are probably carry-overs from the republic. As seen in the Clone Wars series, there are a good portion of Officers who are not clones, and these obviously formed the initial base of the command structure when the Empire was formed. They would not know any of the effects on education from the Empire, though even then i doubt its Minor.

Thats another consideration, even if you decide to use only the Empire from the movies and not in between Ep 3 and IV, its only been 20 years, thats not exactly alot for any changes to education to have gone through, and then to have had an effect on your pool of potential recruits. Now, if we were talking about an Empire that has had a reign of several more decades, then maybe. As it is, every single high ranking officer will have recieved his education during the Republic era.


That's actually a fair point, though on the flip side it also brings to attention a real achilles heal of the Empire vs the UFP. We have no idea of what a prolonged Imperial rule would be like, it's true, but that's because they were a short lived, unstable power. Palpatine is really just a fly by night dictator, which means that the Empire might not even have the stability to stand up to a major war with the UFP. Now it's true, the Imperial rule ended prematurely because of the unexpected Rebel victory at Endor, but... but... a war with the Federation would only hasten that victory in my opinion for 2 reasons. First, that war would divert resources and strain the Empire, and probably increase dissent. Second, that stretch on resources means the Rebels are suddenly going to have an easier time. In fact, to put more pressure on them with a 2 front war, the UFP might start heavily funding the Rebellion with everything from increased tools for propaganda, to technology, to manufacturing resources. The loss in resources to the UFP would be outweighed by the problem of genuinely giving the Empire a 2 front war to think about, or really, a war from without AND a war from within (even better than a classic 2 front war).

You see, Zyrious, I didn't really count the Republic carryover because I assumed this war would more or less take place with the Empire existing in a figurative vacuum, that is to say as if it was the only Wars power or influence that ever existed. By giving the Empire the experience of the Republic, you change the debate that I was trying to partake in because I wasn't counting the Rebels as a factor in this hypothetical war, where as now I would have to. It's a good point, but it's also a take some, give some kind of a point.

As to my first comment about numbers of traitors, that was off, yes, pretend i never made it.

Fair enough.


But the point stands. You cant use a pool of major characters as a representative of the whole of the Empire. Just because the whole of the Empire is not shown, does not mean it does not exist, that is rediculous to even say. Major characters have gone traitor, that does not in any way indicate if it is the norm, or a rarity. It could, in which case it would harm the empire. Or it could not. We just can't make that kind of determination. Keep in mind, not all rebels are traitors, they have their own academy (Luke states in ANH he wanted to go to the academy to become a rebel pilot). Of course, the rebellion has always stated it is very heavily outnumbered, and even then it gets its own pool of recruits from recruiting civilians. And the Empire is in control of a crapload of planets. So one would assume, if any major amount of officers were going rebel, the Rebels would have a much larger recruit base, especially when officers are concerned. As it is, they are promoting people like Han Solo and Calrissian to Generals. That seems to be indicative of their status

Well, I was aware of sample size the moment I made the comment, but here's why I think it still works. The Rebellion is a diverse group of people from ALL sorts of backgrounds, and so when you include even minor characters, you might be dealing with a relatively small sample, but you're also dealing with a truly random sample, which eliminates part of the problem with small statistical samples in the first place (the easy introduction of bias). What's more, these aren't just run of the mill people in some cases. They are full Generals, or at the very least, some of the Empire's best and brightest. Suddenly that group of people is representing a smaller group that needs to be sampled, the high brass and the unique talent, not just ordinary Imperial citizens. Also, remember that the Empire had control over ALL worlds. There was dissent here and there (which is where the Rebellion drew its numbers from), but it's not like there were Rebel aligned worlds and Imperial aligned worlds, at least no openly. That's why the Rebels always had to hide. Even worlds secretly sympathetic to the Rebellion openly supported and supplied the Empire. To do otherwise is to ask for... well... consequences. :p

Finally, it's true that the Rebels are a smaller group than the Imperials, and so naturally a greater number of defectors go from the larger to the smaller rather than the reverse, but also consider the reason for defection. The reason for defection from the Empire is universally a matter of principle, and principle would not inspire defectors TO the Empire, because if you're truly an advocate of their style of brutality, you'd never join the Rebels to begin with. The same goes for people concerned with fighting a losing battle with the odds against them. They'd never become Rebels in the first place. So, I would say that there were probably hardly ever defectors from the Rebellion, even relative to the size of their overall force.

Now, As far as science complementing military ability, that may not be true if you're just firing a rifle or commanding a tank, but things get a little different when you put starships into the mix. There are many, many instances of use of science to compliment basic training to get out of situations. Janeway uses her obscenely good mastery of treknobabble to solve situations all the time (even if this does lead to a lot of Deus ex Machina plots in Voyager). Let's just take a small example though. Let's say an ISD and an interdictory met a Galaxy class starship, and the 2 forms of technology were radically different. There's a MUCH greater chance of the Starfleet bridge officers (particularly the captain) saying "couldn't we use treknobable type x to defeat Imperial technology type a?" than the reverse happening, because we see it all the time in Trek, whereas I'm not aware of any situation in Wars. When the Millenium Falcon disappeared off of an ISD's sensors, how many officers chimed in to offer a theory for the disappearance and an alternative way to scan? None. Now I know that's more Trek because that's how episodes tend to unfold, but again writing styles give the strength of a fiction, so it's a valid point. Now in the case of the Millenium Falcon, that probably wouldn't have helped (aside from the fact the Starfleet vessels don't have such ridiculous blind spots in sensors), but the point is nobody tried on that ISD's bridge. With Diplomacy, if we're talking about a war between the UFP (and friends) and the Empire, than while it doesn't directly help combat ability that each Starfleet officer is part diplomat, it does help the war effort, because it's easier to attract allies when your soldiers are already trained for the diplomatic intricacies of first contact missions. The Federation used that particular talent when facing the Dominion to open trade even with a Dominion-held world.

[Zyrious]

That's actually a fair point, though on the flip side it also brings to attention a real achilles heal of the Empire vs the UFP. We have no idea of what a prolonged Imperial rule would be like, it's true, but that's because they were a short lived, unstable power. Palpatine is really just a fly by night dictator, which means that the Empire might not even have the stability to stand up to a major war with the UFP. Now it's true, the Imperial rule ended prematurely because of the unexpected Rebel victory at Endor, but... but... a war with the Federation would only hasten that victory in my opinion for 2 reasons. First, that war would divert resources and strain the Empire, and probably increase dissent. Second, that stretch on resources means the Rebels are suddenly going to have an easier time. In fact, to put more pressure on them with a 2 front war, the UFP might start heavily funding the Rebellion with everything from increased tools for propaganda, to technology, to manufacturing resources. The loss in resources to the UFP would be outweighed by the problem of genuinely giving the Empire a 2 front war to think about, or really, a war from without AND a war from within (even better than a classic 2 front war).

You see, Zyrious, I didn't really count the Republic carryover because I assumed this war would more or less take place with the Empire existing in a figurative vacuum, that is to say as if it was the only Wars power or influence that ever existed. By giving the Empire the experience of the Republic, you change the debate that I was trying to partake in because I wasn't counting the Rebels as a factor in this hypothetical war, where as now I would have to. It's a good point, but it's also a take some, give some kind of a point.



Fair enough.



Well, I was aware of sample size the moment I made the comment, but here's why I think it still works. The Rebellion is a diverse group of people from ALL sorts of backgrounds, and so when you include even minor characters, you might be dealing with a relatively small sample, but you're also dealing with a truly random sample, which eliminates part of the problem with small statistical samples in the first place (the easy introduction of bias). What's more, these aren't just run of the mill people in some cases. They are full Generals, or at the very least, some of the Empire's best and brightest. Suddenly that group of people is representing a smaller group that needs to be sampled, the high brass and the unique talent, not just ordinary Imperial citizens. Also, remember that the Empire had control over ALL worlds. There was dissent here and there (which is where the Rebellion drew its numbers from), but it's not like there were Rebel aligned worlds and Imperial aligned worlds, at least no openly. That's why the Rebels always had to hide. Even worlds secretly sympathetic to the Rebellion openly supported and supplied the Empire. To do otherwise is to ask for... well... consequences. :p

Finally, it's true that the Rebels are a smaller group than the Imperials, and so naturally a greater number of defectors go from the larger to the smaller rather than the reverse, but also consider the reason for defection. The reason for defection from the Empire is universally a matter of principle, and principle would not inspire defectors TO the Empire, because if you're truly an advocate of their style of brutality, you'd never join the Rebels to begin with. The same goes for people concerned with fighting a losing battle with the odds against them. They'd never become Rebels in the first place. So, I would say that there were probably hardly ever defectors from the Rebellion, even relative to the size of their overall force.

Now, As far as science complementing military ability, that may not be true if you're just firing a rifle or commanding a tank, but things get a little different when you put starships into the mix. There are many, many instances of use of science to compliment basic training to get out of situations. Janeway uses her obscenely good mastery of treknobabble to solve situations all the time (even if this does lead to a lot of Deus ex Machina plots in Voyager). Let's just take a small example though. Let's say an ISD and an interdictory met a Galaxy class starship, and the 2 forms of technology were radically different. There's a MUCH greater chance of the Starfleet bridge officers (particularly the captain) saying "couldn't we use treknobable type x to defeat Imperial technology type a?" than the reverse happening, because we see it all the time in Trek, whereas I'm not aware of any situation in Wars. When the Millenium Falcon disappeared off of an ISD's sensors, how many officers chimed in to offer a theory for the disappearance and an alternative way to scan? None. Now I know that's more Trek because that's how episodes tend to unfold, but again writing styles give the strength of a fiction, so it's a valid point. Now in the case of the Millenium Falcon, that probably wouldn't have helped (aside from the fact the Starfleet vessels don't have such ridiculous blind spots in sensors), but the point is nobody tried on that ISD's bridge. With Diplomacy, if we're talking about a war between the UFP (and friends) and the Empire, than while it doesn't directly help combat ability that each Starfleet officer is part diplomat, it does help the war effort, because it's easier to attract allies when your soldiers are already trained for the diplomatic intricacies of first contact missions. The Federation used that particular talent when facing the Dominion to open trade even with a Dominion-held world.

Hey Catamount, the idea of the rebellion also being involved adds a lot of fun 2 on 1 scenarios one could think about. It adds an interesitng element, if assuming Imperial Tech could match federation tech.

As for Technobabble vs not. Well thats just writing styles. In trek somehow being a master of Math or Physics gives you the ability to alter the very nature of your Deflector Dish or your transporters and defeat your enemy. I think thatl beat the Empire every time. In Star Wars, the Empire may have the best education, but on an ISD, everything is always operating at 100%. If it were capable of doing anything else, it would already be doing it. In the military, if the Falcon disappears, i dont offer a suggestion to my CO, i'm already at my station, i do my job. If i'm operating sensors, then i already have a superior education in that particular area area, and should be doing everything in my power to try and find the falcon. If i cant, i shrug and keep trying til we dump our trash and hyper out. Oh, and needa gets dragged off to the morgue.

Thats how the real military works. A guy with a gun knows everything about how to utilize it, and thus get the best out of it. Conversely, an electrician gets full training and education in that particular field, and knows how to get the best out of that job. In Star Trek, everyone seems to know everything about everything, so everyone chips in on how to get the Deflector dish to turn into a beam of death.

Its kinda writing conflicts, but i guess i could grant you that in the end, Star Trek having random Dues Ex Machine gives it the edge at the end of the day. The Imperial Officers could all be mini-einsteins, but at the end of the day they can't make their turbolasers 100% more efficient than they were designed to be, and make their sensor beams turn into rays of death. XD

[Catamount]

Hey Catamount, the idea of the rebellion also being involved adds a lot of fun 2 on 1 scenarios one could think about. It adds an interesitng element, if assuming Imperial Tech could match federation tech.

As for Technobabble vs not. Well thats just writing styles. In trek somehow being a master of Math or Physics gives you the ability to alter the very nature of your Deflector Dish or your transporters and defeat your enemy. I think thatl beat the Empire every time. In Star Wars, the Empire may have the best education, but on an ISD, everything is always operating at 100%. If it were capable of doing anything else, it would already be doing it. In the military, if the Falcon disappears, i dont offer a suggestion to my CO, i'm already at my station, i do my job. If i'm operating sensors, then i already have a superior education in that particular area area, and should be doing everything in my power to try and find the falcon. If i cant, i shrug and keep trying til we dump our trash and hyper out. Oh, and needa gets dragged off to the morgue.

Thats how the real military works. A guy with a gun knows everything about how to utilize it, and thus get the best out of it. Conversely, an electrician gets full training and education in that particular field, and knows how to get the best out of that job. In Star Trek, everyone seems to know everything about everything, so everyone chips in on how to get the Deflector dish to turn into a beam of death.

Its kinda writing conflicts, but i guess i could grant you that in the end, Star Trek having random Dues Ex Machine gives it the edge at the end of the day. The Imperial Officers could all be mini-einsteins, but at the end of the day they can't make their turbolasers 100% more efficient than they were designed to be, and make their sensor beams turn into rays of death. XD

Hey, at the end of the day USS Voyager beats everything. Let's face it, the ship can fly through supernovas with nothing but on-the-fly modifications :D. If for some reason Voyager can't defeat something, Janeway will come from the future and give future treknobabble OF DEATH *dramatic music*, thus increasing Voyager's capabilities by another 3 trillion fold. I know I know, I shouldn't reduce yet ANOTHER thread to Voyager bashing, but I have a daily quota that's tough to meet. :p

How about this, for the moment why don't we just take crews out of this discussion (along with Voyager :)). I generally like to do that anyways, because it eliminates a variable that's very hard to measure, and can go both ways.

I'm not sure where else this can go tonight, probably because I'm getting tired, but I'll see what comes of this thread in the morning.

[xlcr]

No. It's scientific fiction that rewrote a traditional, fantastical story. Due to that, it isn't fantasy. Its themes, while they may have originated in typical fantasy, are altered to qualify as scientific fiction. At most, you could consider it to be speculative fiction, but not fantasy.
.

You do realize that fantasy and science fiction are considered to be speculative fiction, right? Maybe I'm missing your point there.

Aside from that, the difference in what you're saying is that Star Wars (the films) can't exist without the fantasy themes. The fantasy themes ARE those films.

Remove Q and Sisko's destiney from Trek, you still have Trek. Why? Because those stories aren't intregal to the Trek reality. Trek, at its core, is science fiction.

Remove the myth elements from Star Wars and it won't exist as a movie. Those elements make it what it is. Star Wars is fantasy. Space Fantasy, sure, but it's fantasy.

But, to be fair, you'll probably find Star Wars listed in the Science Fiction isle at the video store. I didn't bring this up to start a new debate... I'm not really invested either way. I was just stating that because they operate under opposing rulesets, it's difficult to say who'd win. I mean, who's ruleset do you follow? Star Wars actually can't exist in Star Trek's ruleset without completely invalidating most of what holds Star Trek together.

My point in even bringing this up, however, was in the "vs" category, I find it very difficult to put trek against wars because trek is founded on science fiction. Wars is not. They operate on separate rulesets. Saying "who would win" in that would be like saying who would win in a fight between Captain Krik and the god Apollo... no, wait. Scratch that! Forget I said that! ;)

Seriously, though, Star Trek at least tries to make its material have some basis in science. Star Wars does not. The Death Star Battle does not take any scientific factors into account. Everything you see on that screen was added for purely visual purposes. They whip around like there's an atmosphere. Why? Because they're based on WW II air battles.

Saying who would win in a fight between Captain Kirk and Darth Vader is similar to saying who would win in a fight between Captain Kirk and Gandalf. They don't exist in the same universe, and the rules are different for each.

All that said, if you absolutely insisted on putting them in the same ring, I can't imagine Star Trek even having a chance. I mean, if--like you said--Q is essentially the force, then that would mean the most powerful entity in Star Trek would have to obey the commands of the Jedi and Sith in Star Wars. Besides the fact that the Emperor rules an entire galaxy, and he can choke people with his mind (no science can defend it), and he can blow up planets.

You see what I mean? The rules for each are so radically different, I find them very hard to compare.

[starshipcaptain]

ive decied not to care wahts better. why you ask

1) i love science Fiction
2) there both goodin entertainment

and i dont think they are continuing star trek anymroe in series but star wars they are making the clones wars series

[xlcr]

ive decied not to care wahts better. why you ask

1) i love science Fiction
2) there both goodin entertainment

and i dont think they are continuing star trek anymroe in series but star wars they are making the clones wars series

Yeah, I don't much care who's better either. This debate's just for the fun of debate. Like I mentioned earlier, I love both franchises... for different reasons.

[sintar07]

Holy Crap! I stopped looking at this thread for a whole day and it's spawned another two and a half pages of really long posts :eek:

I'll get back to all of you later when I finish reading them :)

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Holy Crap! I stopped looking at this thread for a whole day and it's spawned another two and a half pages of really long posts :eek:

I'll get back to all of you later when I finish reading them :)

<.< You've read every post in this thread, haven't you?


I'm not sure if I should pitty you, congratulate you, or run away screaming in horror...

[bothan]

Aren't those numbers from that one bogus book? I heard that the guy who wrote that book was an active participant in discussions not unlike this one long before he ever set pen to paper. I also heard that he was rabidly against Star Trek winning in any conflict. And lo and behold, he publishes a book filled with ridiculous numbers in favor of Star Wars. Frankly, I'd be willing to bet that that one book is half the reason Ilithi banned books from the discussion in the first place. Because it's not canon. It's bogus biased material made for the sole purpose of allowing Star Wars to win a fight more easilly.

Luckily for the Star Trek partisans, "The Outrageous Okona" and "Suddenly Human" are canon. It makes their job easier, as i suspect it was intended to do. However, comparing the two canons is like comparing apples and oranges, to use a stale cliche. If Star Trek had a tiered canon like Star Wars, those two episodes would be "T-canon", as Gene Roddenberry was not directly involved in either one. (By the way, does the CGI Clone Wars series count as canon for the purposes of this thread?)

Regarding the genre Star Wars belongs to: Of course it's fantasy, whether you regard it as sci-fi or not. Sci-fi is itself fantasy, so Star Wars is covered either way.

Regarding the size of the Star Wars galaxy: I have the original trilogy novelizations. It's been a while since I read them, but after skimming through them recently, I was unable to find anything about the galaxy being of moderate size. Unless someone gives me a chapter reference, I'll just assume it's like that snowspeeder that crashed into the Imperial walker in the theatrical release of The Empire Strikes Back.

A few pages back, someone noted that George Lucas chose a sci-fi setting for Star Wars due to the success of ST:TMP. That has my vote as best comment of this thread.

Cheers.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Regarding the size of the Star Wars galaxy: I have the original trilogy novelizations. It's been a while since I read them, but after skimming through them recently, I was unable to find anything about the galaxy being of moderate size. Unless someone gives me a chapter reference, I'll just assume it's like that snowspeeder that crashed into the Imperial walker in the theatrical release of The Empire Strikes Back.

http://st-v-sw.net/STSWANHgalsize.html

[bothan]

Thanks, Ilithi Dragon. Now I'm free to debate the meaning of "modest". :p

Well, whatever the meaning of "modest", it seems the "G-canon" has largely closed without being more specific. With Star Trek, at least we can assume its galaxy is some 100,000 light years across, even if it was never stated in an episode or movie.

[adriancrouton]

I feel like I'm being left out... probably because everthing I say is RONG!

I need resorcefull frend's, And ontop of that I HAVE NO FREND'S!( on STO ).


Eny one want to be my frend? Now don't all jump up at once.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Resourceful friends are great, and are highly recommended, but you should have plenty of resources of your own, as well. Research, man, research! It's a lot of fun! } : = 8 D

[bothan]

Resourceful friends? Who needs those? All you really need is a good library or bookstore. I've also heard there are resources to be found on something called the World Wide Web, but last time I checked there was nothing there but a lot of pictures of pets and blinking text.

[Catamount]

Bothan, in all honesty I'm not sure a concensus has ever been reached on what's included in this argument, but I generally use the films, novelizations, and shows (including the CGI Clone Wars one) as canon, and use EU material where there is significant canon evidence to back it up, or where the information is well known (such as mentions of characters like Thrawn and Katarn). So far, no one has scolded me yet... Basically just use what you think is relevant.

[Future_Guy]

Doctor Who is better, plain and simple. Oh and its the oldest/more original concept :p

[starshipcaptain]

A volcan Vs Yoda

[bothan]

Bothan, in all honesty I'm not sure a concensus has ever been reached on what's included in this argument, but I generally use the films, novelizations, and shows (including the CGI Clone Wars one) as canon, and use EU material where there is significant canon evidence to back it up, or where the information is well known (such as mentions of characters like Thrawn and Katarn). So far, no one has scolded me yet... Basically just use what you think is relevant.

Actually, I believe the originator of this thread defined what's permitted on the Star Wars side of the argument as what's known as "G-canon", which wouldn't include any TV series. It does, however, include a book in which Luke Skywalker is Blue Five, Emperor (formerly President) Palpatine is controlled by his own political appointees, and the Imperial governors and bureaucrats are the true rulers of the galaxy.

As for what I think is relevant: well, that could potentially be anything.

Lasers, for instance: I think the real reason the Feds aren't afraid of lasers is that the Talosians keep covering up the actual damage they do. :p

[sintar07]

Ok, so I finished getting through that rather long winded article on Trek and Wars bias that Ilithi posted...

Is it just me, or are they all asses? I mean seriously, the pro Trek guy was kind of mean and the pro Wars guys were just flat out obnoxious and rude. Plus, one of the Wars guys wrote a fantasy torture story about beating the Trek guy into submission in various nasty ways... There's something wrong with those people.
:confused::confused::confused:

[bothan]

Some people take their fantasy a little too seriously, apparently. :rolleyes:

[Catamount]

Bothan, I wouldn't worry too much about Ilithi's intentions here. I don't think he intended this thread to die and come back dozens of times over the past 7 months, and every time it does I give him hell for it. Besides, we've beaten every canon point to death at least 60 times already.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Bothan, I wouldn't worry too much about Ilithi's intentions here. I don't think he intended this thread to die and come back dozens of times over the past 7 months, and every time it does I give him hell for it. Besides, we've beaten every canon point to death at least 60 times already.

I think he was referring to the "Rabid Warsies" mentioned above, not me. } : = 8 )

Also, in G2K's defense (the guy who operates ST-v-SW.net), he just gives back what he gets (less so, actually). I've been following the development of his site, and the Vs debates in general, for a while, and I've seen some of the nasty stuff that gets thrown his way. I don't always agree with his counter-attack responses to ad hominems and vitriol, etc., but then, I haven't had to deal with that stuff getting tossed at me since the late 90s, so I can't say I wouldn't give similar responses were I in his shoes. He also used to have greater documentation of the attacks made against him, but removed a lot of stuff pertaining to one of his 'opponents', with whom he made a sort of peace with, in which they both agreed to remove the content attacking each other from their respective sites.

[Catamount]

I think he was referring to the "Rabid Warsies" mentioned above, not me. } : = 8 )

Also, in G2K's defense (the guy who operates ST-v-SW.net), he just gives back what he gets (less so, actually). I've been following the development of his site, and the Vs debates in general, for a while, and I've seen some of the nasty stuff that gets thrown his way. I don't always agree with his counter-attack responses to ad hominems and vitriol, etc., but then, I haven't had to deal with that stuff getting tossed at me since the late 90s, so I can't say I wouldn't give similar responses were I in his shoes. He also used to have greater documentation of the attacks made against him, but removed a lot of stuff pertaining to one of his 'opponents', with whom he made a sort of peace with, in which they both agreed to remove the content attacking each other from their respective sites.

I've only visited his site more recently, but I've seen a lot of what gets thrown his way, and I must say he's both civil and even-handed by comparison to the people he has to deal with, most notably a certain "rabid Warsie" that we all know, but generally try to avoid mentioning here.

[adriancrouton]

This has ben buging me for month's, what the heck duz EU mean? Eroupean Union?:confused:

[Ilithi_Dragon]

This has ben buging me for month's, what the heck duz EU mean? Eroupean Union?:confused:

The Expanded Universe. Typically used in reference to the Star Wars: Expanded Universe (everything that isn't the movies and the CGI/live-action series).

[sintar07]

Now I do have to admit a certain amount of cinfusion pertaining to the EU. I always heard taht all the EU in Star Wars was canon. I was given to believe that Lucas had signed some sort of contract, way back in the day, with all the EU writers that basically said that whatever they wrote was canon as long as they didn't mess up the film's material or that of previous books.

So what's with this sudden turnaround? 'Cause now I'm hearing that none of it is canon, and that it's all just some "alternate universe." In fact, I think it was Lucas himself who said that.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Now I do have to admit a certain amount of cinfusion pertaining to the EU. I always heard taht all the EU in Star Wars was canon. I was given to believe that Lucas had signed some sort of contract, way back in the day, with all the EU writers that basically said that whatever they wrote was canon as long as they didn't mess up the film's material or that of previous books.

So what's with this sudden turnaround? 'Cause now I'm hearing that none of it is canon, and that it's all just some "alternate universe." In fact, I think it was Lucas himself who said that.

Everything you need to know about Trek and Wars canon. (http://canonwars.com/) I recommend one of the abridged versions for the Wars overview, unless you've got absolutely nothing better to do for the next couple days.

[LordEnn]

Now I do have to admit a certain amount of cinfusion pertaining to the EU. I always heard taht all the EU in Star Wars was canon. I was given to believe that Lucas had signed some sort of contract, way back in the day, with all the EU writers that basically said that whatever they wrote was canon as long as they didn't mess up the film's material or that of previous books.

So what's with this sudden turnaround? 'Cause now I'm hearing that none of it is canon, and that it's all just some "alternate universe." In fact, I think it was Lucas himself who said that

The expansionary material is canonical. It's a part of the overall franchise, but it's said to be separated from the six movies, and several other sources, because it's on a lower level of canon. The primary level includes the movies, their novelizations, and the scripts. The secondary level contains the new animated series and the upcoming live-action series. Below that, on the tertiary level, is the majority of the expansionary material. Lucas wanted his story (the movies) to remain the main, uninterrupted component of the franchise.

[Chaotyx]

Federation has the firepower in space, but you need the ground also thats where the empire wins. I mean come on you never see the federation with ground tanks blowing the hell out of the Jim'Hadar.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Federation has the firepower in space, but you need the ground also thats where the empire wins. I mean come on you never see the federation with ground tanks blowing the hell out of the Jim'Hadar.

Because ground forces don't mean squat when you've got ships in orbit. Though, to be fair, the characters we followed were starship officers, not ground troopers, so it's not surprising that we didn't see a lot of heavy ground combat equipment, though we did hear references to various ground- and atmospheric-based combat vehicles, and we saw Starfleet troopers equipped with armor during one of the episodes covering the brief Federation-Klingon War in DS9.


Also, the way Lucas himself describes the canon, there are two separate branches of canon - Lucas' films-only canon branch (or more accurately now, features-only), and then the films+EU branch, which includes everything else and tiered canon system. Lucas' features-only branch is the official canon of the franchise brand, while the features+EU branch is the canon of the SW:EU brand.

[bothan]

Besides, we've beaten every canon point to death at least 60 times already.

I realize this thread is 131 pages long, but somehow I doubt that.

Adrian, here's the long answer: Expanded Universe (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Eu)

[Sumoben]

I realize this thread is 131 pages long, but somehow I doubt that.

Adrian, here's the long answer: Expanded Universe (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Eu)

You obviously haven't noticed how long their posts can get.

[Catamount]

I realize this thread is 131 pages long, but somehow I doubt that.

Adrian, here's the long answer: Expanded Universe (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Eu)

Shun the nonbeliever! Seriously, if you had any idea of just how long this thread has gone on... I've been here pretty much the entire time it's been around, and it's seriously that bad. We've talked about firepower, FTL tech, FTL weaponry, computer targetting vs manual turrets, crews, Jedi, omnipotent beings, the size of the Wars' galaxy, the genre in which Wars falls, shield endurance, EPS conduits vs physical wiring, the death star, omega particles, troops counts, and all that just scratches the surface. Oh, and each of those topics has come up multiple times.

This thread has been going on for so long, that I'm now arguing on the opposite side of where I did when I first started posting.

This thread is so unending, that eventually it's going to reach critical mass, consume the internet, gain physical form, and start terrorizing Tokyo as a giant monster that shoots starships... all that, and it's all Ilithi's fault.

You here that, Ilithi? It's all your fault! You opened Pandora's box.

[sintar07]

Shun the nonbeliever! Seriously, if you had any idea of just how long this thread has gone on... I've been here pretty much the entire time it's been around, and it's seriously that bad. We've talked about firepower, FTL tech, FTL weaponry, computer targetting vs manual turrets, crews, Jedi, omnipotent beings, the size of the Wars' galaxy, the genre in which Wars falls, shield endurance, EPS conduits vs physical wiring, the death star, omega particles, troops counts, and all that just scratches the surface. Oh, and each of those topics has come up multiple times.

This thread has been going on for so long, that I'm now arguing on the opposite side of where I did when I first started posting.

This thread is so unending, that eventually it's going to reach critical mass, consume the internet, gain physical form, and start terrorizing Tokyo as a giant monster that shoots starships... all that, and it's all Ilithi's fault.

You here that, Ilithi? It's all your fault! You opened Pandora's box.

...which actually opens uo a new topic which I do not believe was mentioned before... Computer Viruses and A.I.'s!!! See, even if the empire has numbers, firepower, and all that stuff that the Warsies say they do, I think they'd be practically defenseless against the almost sentient computer systems of the Federation. Computer viruses and A.I.'s might be the deciding trump card of the Federation... Thoughts?

[bothan]

The Star Wars galaxy has those too. They just have a penchant for encasing them in metallic bodies and making them talk funny, for some reason. Nobody would blink an eye at Data once they figured out he was a droid. I must admit, though, that I can't recall any purely electronic entities in Star Wars. You'd have to dip into the EU for that. However, the existence of droids shows what is possible.

Shun the nonbeliever! Seriously, if you had any idea of just how long this thread has gone on... I've been here pretty much the entire time it's been around, and it's seriously that bad. We've talked about firepower, FTL tech, FTL weaponry, computer targetting vs manual turrets, crews, Jedi, omnipotent beings, the size of the Wars' galaxy, the genre in which Wars falls, shield endurance, EPS conduits vs physical wiring, the death star, omega particles, troops counts, and all that just scratches the surface. Oh, and each of those topics has come up multiple times.

This thread has been going on for so long, that I'm now arguing on the opposite side of where I did when I first started posting.

This thread is so unending, that eventually it's going to reach critical mass, consume the internet, gain physical form, and start terrorizing Tokyo as a giant monster that shoots starships... all that, and it's all Ilithi's fault.

You here that, Ilithi? It's all your fault! You opened Pandora's box.

Is it bigger than Wookieepedia and Memory Alpha combined? I probably haven't read every single page, but I've been following this thread for some time before I joined up. So, here are a few thoughts:

I know lasers have been talked to death, but actual examples of lasers being fired in Star Trek are somewhat rare. Has anyone compared the effectiveness of, say, the lasers in "The Cage" vs. the phasers in "Who Mourns for Adonais?" My own impression is that there's not much difference. My hypothesis is that the Federation found some reason to prefer phasers over lasers (more settings?) and switched over, after which the best and brightest minds of Starfleet worked to improve phaser technology, while laser technology languished. After a hundred years, both phaser and shield technology had vastly improved, and the idea had become ingrained in Starfleet that lasers were obsolete technology, reinforced by the fact that only fairly backwards spacefaring races still used them. Of course, this hypothesis assumes that Star Wars lasers and Star Trek lasers are more or less the same technology (and I know that's been discussed in this thread before).

On the other hand, has anyone else noticed the striking similarity between turbolasers and disruptors? ;)

[LordEnn]

...which actually opens uo a new topic which I do not believe was mentioned before... Computer Viruses and A.I.'s!!! See, even if the empire has numbers, firepower, and all that stuff that the Warsies say they do, I think they'd be practically defenseless against the almost sentient computer systems of the Federation. Computer viruses and A.I.'s might be the deciding trump card of the Federation... Thoughts?

I hadn't considered that. Starfleet has demonstrated the functional capability of its sophisticated computers on several occasions, whereas very little of Star Wars, even in the expansionary material, has given definitive examples of such systems.

However, there's no need to be specific. If typical B1 battle droids seemed to possess personalities and sentience, of which there were, at least, billions (a low estimate, and contradictory to closely-related, internal expansionary material, as well as a number of events), how powerful is the more important technology of that type? Although those droids were the cheapest, most expendable units in the arsenal of the Confederacy of Independent Systems, they appeared to be infinitely more advanced than one would expect.

:p

[captainedd_68]

Star Trek would win...James T Kirk would launch into a soliloquy about how the Federation holds to the highest ideals, persuades Darth Vader to turn from the Dark Side and to eliminate the Empire as it is known...not only that, he would appeal to all the stormtroopers (clones) to let them know that they would be more than fighting machines, they would be treated as individuals, free to choose whatever path they would follow...after all, a revolution starts with one man...that's my story and I'm stickin to it!

[Catamount]

The Star Wars galaxy has those too. They just have a penchant for encasing them in metallic bodies and making them talk funny, for some reason. Nobody would blink an eye at Data once they figured out he was a droid. I must admit, though, that I can't recall any purely electronic entities in Star Wars. You'd have to dip into the EU for that. However, the existence of droids shows what is possible.



Is it bigger than Wookieepedia and Memory Alpha combined? I probably haven't read every single page, but I've been following this thread for some time before I joined up. So, here are a few thoughts:

I know lasers have been talked to death, but actual examples of lasers being fired in Star Trek are somewhat rare. Has anyone compared the effectiveness of, say, the lasers in "The Cage" vs. the phasers in "Who Mourns for Adonais?" My own impression is that there's not much difference. My hypothesis is that the Federation found some reason to prefer phasers over lasers (more settings?) and switched over, after which the best and brightest minds of Starfleet worked to improve phaser technology, while laser technology languished. After a hundred years, both phaser and shield technology had vastly improved, and the idea had become ingrained in Starfleet that lasers were obsolete technology, reinforced by the fact that only fairly backwards spacefaring races still used them. Of course, this hypothesis assumes that Star Wars lasers and Star Trek lasers are more or less the same technology (and I know that's been discussed in this thread before).

On the other hand, has anyone else noticed the striking similarity between turbolasers and disruptors? ;)

Actually, we've already addressed all of that. My guess is that this thread has gotten so big, that it defies conventional logic, and is somehow now infinitely larger than the 130 pages you see :p. Do some searches, and if you're real lucky, you might find where Ilithi discussed ST shield dissipation of EM energy (lasers).

You might also find the 4 or 5 times when we discussed that SW doesn't use lasers. The technology is visibly different, and much, much, slower (though possibly more energy efficient/powerful). We also discussed what SW "lasers" actually are based on given info on technical workings and what not, which seem to be some sort of charged particle or plasma weapon.

Oh, and btw, you and I both moved this thread closer to the aforementioned point of swallowing the net and terrorizing Tokyo as a giant monster.

[Sumoben]

Actually, we've already addressed all of that. My guess is that this thread has gotten so big, that it defies conventional logic, and is somehow now infinitely larger than the 130 pages you see :p. Do some searches, and if you're real lucky, you might find where Ilithi discussed ST shield dissipation of EM energy (lasers).

You might also find the 4 or 5 times when we discussed that SW doesn't use lasers. The technology is visibly different, and much, much, slower (though possibly more energy efficient/powerful). We also discussed what SW "lasers" actually are based on given info on technical workings and what not, which seem to be some sort of charged particle or plasma weapon.

Oh, and btw, you and I both moved this thread closer to the aforementioned point of swallowing the net and terrorizing Tokyo as a giant monster.

rawrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :D

[sintar07]

I hadn't considered that. Starfleet has demonstrated the functional capability of its sophisticated computers on several occasions, whereas very little of Star Wars, even in the expansionary material, has given definitive examples of such systems.

However, there's no need to be specific. If typical B1 battle droids seemed to possess personalities and sentience, of which there were, at least, billions (a low estimate, and contradictory to closely-related, internal expansionary material, as well as a number of events), how powerful is the more important technology of that type? Although those droids were the cheapest, most expendable units in the arsenal of the Confederacy of Independent Systems, they appeared to be infinitely more advanced than one would expect.

:p

Hmm. I forgot about the droid personalities like R2 and some of the battle droids (and the Falcon of course:D). That granted, it seems to me that the Empire does not allow their own computers to develop that level of actual intelligence. I assume this because of the numerous times that R2 has easily hacked their systems (his intelligence and possible sentience gives him an edge over the superior computational abilities of a shipwide network computer). Further, I think that the Federation's computers, intelligence aside, are most likely faster than the Empires, since they use bio-gel networks. In Star Trek, these are noted to be vastly superior to metalic or crystaline networks, the only downside being their susceptibility to biological viruses. To the best of my knowledge, the Empire, and most species in Star Wars, still use metalic circuitry.

I suppose I should note that while Starfleets computers are 'smarter' than the Empires, they also seem to have reservations about granting them true sentience. And of course, much of this is just speculation, as the topic of computers is widely addressed in neither series.

Catamount, are you sure you've talked about computers and AI's before, 'cause I didn't see anything about it (granted, I was skimming). If I came up with a new topic, I demand credit for it!!! ;)

[Catamount]

Hmm. I forgot about the droid personalities like R2 and some of the battle droids (and the Falcon of course:D). That granted, it seems to me that the Empire does not allow their own computers to develop that level of actual intelligence. I assume this because of the numerous times that R2 has easily hacked their systems (his intelligence and possible sentience gives him an edge over the superior computational abilities of a shipwide network computer). Further, I think that the Federation's computers, intelligence aside, are most likely faster than the Empires, since they use bio-gel networks. In Star Trek, these are noted to be vastly superior to metalic or crystaline networks, the only downside being their susceptibility to biological viruses. To the best of my knowledge, the Empire, and most species in Star Wars, still use metalic circuitry.

I suppose I should note that while Starfleets computers are 'smarter' than the Empires, they also seem to have reservations about granting them true sentience. And of course, much of this is just speculation, as the topic of computers is widely addressed in neither series.

Catamount, are you sure you've talked about computers and AI's before, 'cause I didn't see anything about it (granted, I was skimming). If I came up with a new topic, I demand credit for it!!! ;)

the bio-neural gel packs are probably for faster networking with other computers, terminals, and systems, and not a technology that makes the computer itself any faster (as Trek computers are probably quantum computers). Still, not only does the Empire show no sign of experimenting with overly sophisticated computer tech, they're still using physical wires! There are instances of creating sentient artificial beings throughout Trek, and as holograms seem to have an easier and easier time achieving sentience, it seems to be getting more common.

As far as discussion of computers, we talked about computer tech many times. In fact, a search revealed a mention of sentient computer tech in the form of droids as far back as page 13.

[LordEnn]

Hmm. I forgot about the droid personalities like R2 and some of the battle droids (and the Falcon of course:D). That granted, it seems to me that the Empire does not allow their own computers to develop that level of actual intelligence. I assume this because of the numerous times that R2 has easily hacked their systems (his intelligence and possible sentience gives him an edge over the superior computational abilities of a shipwide network computer).

Perhaps the xenophobic policies of the Galactic Empire are similar to that. Its government may have restricted the development of computer systems to a specific level. It wouldn't be unheard of for the Galactic Empire to prohibit technology that its leadership may distrust.

On the other hand, the Imperial development of artificial intelligence may have reached a phenomenal level. Considering the Galactic Empire's obsession with the absolute might of its military, it may have concentrated on the advancement of computers for many years. Sadly, we don't know.

Further, I think that the Federation's computers, intelligence aside, are most likely faster than the Empires, since they use bio-gel networks. In Star Trek, these are noted to be vastly superior to metalic or crystaline networks, the only downside being their susceptibility to biological viruses.

The circuitry used by the Galactic Empire may be completely different. :p Actually, the applicability of that fact (the superiority of bio-neural circuitry) to Imperial systems is questionable, considering the likely radical differences between the technologies of the United Federation of Planets and the Galactic Empire. Furthermore, the decreased response time of bio-neural circuitry could be outweighed by a number of other important factors.

To the best of my knowledge, the Empire, and most species in Star Wars, still use metalic circuitry.

Where does the association of primitiveness with electrical circuitry arise from? I'm not certain of its comparability with bio-neural circuits. However, due (primarily) to the unstable nature of plasma, the plasma-based systems used to distribute power on Starfleet vessels would be less reliable and durable than typical electrical circuits, and considerably more hazardous, in most situations. In fact, there are also certain issues with efficiency that may become problematic.

:p

And of course, much of this is just speculation, as the topic of computers is widely addressed in neither series.

I want Lucas to explain the precise workings of Imperial power networks. If he does, we'll be able to debate their effectiveness. :p

[Ilithi_Dragon]

On the subject of Droids in the Empire, remember their history! The Galactic Empire, formerly the Galactic Republic, fought a massive civil war, in which the forces of one side were almost exclusively composed of DROIDS, only a generation prior. It's little surprise that the victors, after fighting such a massive conflict against droids, would retain prejudices against them for a very long time, ESPECIALLY since that kind of prejudice and fear would have been a very, very useful tool of control for a master manipulator like Palpatine.

[LordEnn]

On the subject of Droids in the Empire, remember their history! The Galactic Empire, formerly the Galactic Republic, fought a massive civil war, in which the forces of one side were almost exclusively composed of DROIDS, only a generation prior. It's little surprise that the victors, after fighting such a massive conflict against droids, would retain prejudices against them for a very long time, ESPECIALLY since that kind of prejudice and fear would have been a very, very useful tool of control for a master manipulator like Palpatine.

Palpatine orchestrated the Clone Wars. I doubt that he'd care. :p His servants, on the other hand, may.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Palpatine orchestrated the Clone Wars. I doubt that he'd care. :p His servants, on the other hand, may.

Of course, Palpatine wouldn't care, beyond its use to him. But Even if Palpatine is a totalitarian despot at the end, he didn't start that way - he had to give the people something to keep fearing, to keep wanting him in power. That's how a lot of dictatorships work, through paranoia. Fear of some threat makes people much more willing to submit to totalitarian rule than if they had nothing to fear, because it offers protection, and can disguise itself in the cowl of 'national security' and 'emergency powers,' etc. And everyone under Palpatine, who wasn't in on the conspiracy behind his rise to power (and most of them are probably dead), would have been affected by the war, and its aftermath. It's not surprising in the least that droids are treated as they are in the original trilogy, given the recent history, and human nature.

[LordEnn]

Of course, Palpatine wouldn't care, beyond its use to him. But Even if Palpatine is a totalitarian despot at the end, he didn't start that way - he had to give the people something to keep fearing, to keep wanting him in power. That's how a lot of dictatorships work, through paranoia. Fear of some threat makes people much more willing to submit to totalitarian rule than if they had nothing to fear, because it offers protection, and can disguise itself in the cowl of 'national security' and 'emergency powers,' etc.

He used the fictitious perfidy of the Jedi Order in the same manner, frightening the galactic population. It was an effective tactic. :p

[Catamount]

It always is.

[starwolf77]

Star Wars....................................:D

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Star Trek....................................:D

Fixed. } : = 8 )

[nagash303]

yes it wouldnot be a star trek forum if there wasnot a thread for star wars.
May a phaser be with you :D

[Snapshot_9]

Fixed. } : = 8 )

thats harsh :p

[Catamount]

Hey Ilithi, your thread is back.

[coonie123]

I Say Stat trek is better. It's not all about battles, but exploration too.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Hey Ilithi, your thread is back.

I checked the forums this morning before work, and started cackling, "It's alive! ALIVE!!! MAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"

Now were's El Cap and his Mumra vid when you need him?

[sintar07]

Woot! It's back again! Now I just need to think of something "new" to say that's already been discussed...

[thegreathunt]

Well I’m new to the forms and I didn’t have time to read all 100+ pages of pasts so I’m sure my views have already been talked about. The federation has more advanced weapons and shielding the ships are way more maneuverable they can beam people places and items and can destroy a planet using genesis vs. a huge item like the death star so in a all out war I believe the federation will win but the emperor is powerful and if he can take over a galactic senate he probably won’t have to much problems using the dark side of the force to take over the federation politically I would like to see a ids try to shoot the enterprise as it loops around it the weapons on the isd are point and fire same with the ships so it’s like trying to hit a bird granted a big one with a rifle and that bird has regenerative shielding I don’t think even as big as the ids is its stands a chance

[Roberto]

I checked the forums this morning before work, and started cackling, "It's alive! ALIVE!!! MAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"

Now were's El Cap and his Mumra vid when you need him?

Sorry, I'm slipping...


RESURRECTION (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umU8vKRNnRw&feature=related)

[mattig89ch]

If we think back to the levithan from K1, as you flew away from it, it had guns that were shooting at you from 360 degrees.

So, i'm pretty sure regardless of where the star fleet vessel flew, it would be taking fire.

Also the genesis weapon was one that was a science experiment gone wrong. It was never really a weapon, and it was abandoned right after the science experiment went arry.

[Catamount]

If we think back to the levithan from K1, as you flew away from it, it had guns that were shooting at you from 360 degrees.

So, i'm pretty sure regardless of where the star fleet vessel flew, it would be taking fire.

Also the genesis weapon was one that was a science experiment gone wrong. It was never really a weapon, and it was abandoned right after the science experiment went arry.

The thing is, however that Star Trek weapons are either as fast as light or FTL capable, whereas Wars weapons are visibly sub-luminal and frequently miss targets from only a few KM away, which means that Trek ships would simply never get in range on Wars weapons. The one exception with Trek weaponry are torpedoes fired at sub-light and even they can travel at a significant fraction of C, and are highly accurate and maneuverable. As far as firepower that seems to favor Trek as well, as I pointed out in my admittedly rough comparison of the Death Star to the Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar fleet in DS9 The Die is Cast.

I can certainly say this much, in any war between the UFP and the Empire we'd sure be seeing a lot of Akira class ships being pumped out :). Photon torpedoes would basically win that war.

[Snapshot_9]

I can certainly say this much, in any war between the UFP and the Empire we'd sure be seeing a lot of Akira class ships being pumped out :). Photon torpedoes would basically win that war.

I love the akira, I would sell someone elses soul to see a fleet of them gank an ISD.

As iv pointed out tho, the tech in SW is very inflexible. There are lasers (actualy a plasma type of weapon) and deflectors.

Im not actualy sure how a SW ships shields work, they dont seem to be able to stop solid objects. I.E small fighter OR as it would then appear photon torpedos.
The more powerful trek weapons my well just pass straight through the shields.

[Catamount]

I love the akira, I would sell someone elses soul to see a fleet of them gank an ISD.

As iv pointed out tho, the tech in SW is very inflexible. There are lasers (actualy a plasma type of weapon) and deflectors.

Im not actualy sure how a SW ships shields work, they dont seem to be able to stop solid objects. I.E small fighter OR as it would then appear photon torpedos.
The more powerful trek weapons my well just pass straight through the shields.

Well in ESB a Star Destroyer and an asteroid had a bit of a disagreement... the asteroid won :D

I've always wondered if a Trek ship would stand up better.

[adriancrouton]

Most likely. But nothing can stand up to MIND BULLIT'S!

[abergy32]

It seems like that a federation vessel's shields could take more damage than the shields of a star destroyer. We have also seen more classes of federation vessels than those used by the Empire. I think that the federation would win the space battles, but when it comes to land invasions the empire's vast numbers would quickly overwhelm the federation, but you got to get to the planet your invading first.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

but when it comes to land invasions the empire's vast numbers would quickly overwhelm the federation

Three words: Precision Orbital Strike. Squad of Marines hunkered down, taking fire from a tank (or AT-AT)? Call up the USS McKinley in orbit, and call down a starship-grade phaser strike. That bunker being a problem for you? Call the USS Arizona, and call down a 1,000 megaton photon torpedo. And you can watch, too, 'cause that 1,000 megaton photon torpedo uses shields and forcefields to 'shape' the charge, confining the blast into a concentrated area for maximum, localized effect, and minimum collateral damage.

That, and Trek does have ground forces - we just haven't seen much of them because we've focused on the starships. We saw some examples of Starfleet Marines/Naval Infantry wearing combat armor during the brief Fed-Kling War in DS9, saw some low-kiloton-range photon grenades in TOS, and heard references to various combat transports, assault skimmers, etc. Trek probably trumps Wars in ground combat tech and effectiveness just as much as they trump them in space.

[vp21ct]

Three words: Precision Orbital Strike. Squad of Marines hunkered down, taking fire from a tank (or AT-AT)? Call up the USS McKinley in orbit, and call down a starship-grade phaser strike. That bunker being a problem for you? Call the USS Arizona, and call down a 1,000 megaton photon torpedo. And you can watch, too, 'cause that 1,000 megaton photon torpedo uses shields and forcefields to 'shape' the charge, confining the blast into a concentrated area for maximum, localized effect, and minimum collateral damage.

That, and Trek does have ground forces - we just haven't seen much of them because we've focused on the starships. We saw some examples of Starfleet Marines/Naval Infantry wearing combat armor during the brief Fed-Kling War in DS9, saw some low-kiloton-range photon grenades in TOS, and heard references to various combat transports, assault skimmers, etc. Trek probably trumps Wars in ground combat tech and effectiveness just as much as they trump them in space.

As anyone should know.

WIDE BEAM SETTING

[sintar07]

Im not actualy sure how a SW ships shields work, they dont seem to be able to stop solid objects. I.E small fighter OR as it would then appear photon torpedos.


Actually, that's not true. The examples from Star Wars which appear to show shields being penetrable by solid objects are actually examples of the shields being down. We can clearly see the result of "shields up" when multiple starfighters crash on the surface of the second Death Star's shield.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Actually, that's not true. The examples from Star Wars which appear to show shields being penetrable by solid objects are actually examples of the shields being down. We can clearly see the result of "shields up" when multiple starfighters crash on the surface of the second Death Star's shield.

Actually, none of the fighters crashed into the second Death Star's shield - the entire fleet dodged it. However, the fact that they were required to evade the shield or go boom means more or less the same thing. We also saw some fighters crash against the shields of larger capital ships (chiefly a TIE or two against a Mon Cal Cruiser) in RotJ ("Haha, dodged your fire, you Rebel Scu-" *Crash!* moment there)-

Then, in RotS, there was the fact that Anakin and Obi-wan had to drop the shields protecting the Invisible Hand's hangar bay before they could fly into it (though the Invisible Hand appeared to have already lost regular shielding)

So, at least some types of SW shields can block solid objects.

[Arakim]

Every Star Wars or Star Trek website winds up getting one of these threads eventually.

Ewoks beat the Emperor’s best legion. Ewoks. With spears, clubs, and future Star Wars merchandise.

Klingons are deathly afraid of Tribbles. "Today is a good... Ah! Devil-Balls! Ahhh!"

These two facts leave me to believe both universes are silly places.

If we ignore those small bits of fluff (fluff, I kill me) we can look at how George and Gene chose to conceptualize their universes.

George had no science in mind when he made Star Wars. It was and always will be a story about Redemption and how power corrupts.

Gene had some science in mind for Star Trek, even had some brainy guys giving him ideas about future stuff. So Anti-Matter, Time Warps, all that kind of thing.

In Star wars the most powerful thing in the galaxy is the Empire. In Star Trek, It's the Borg. They have ships of comparable size, minus the Death Star, which was built to deal with huge ships like the Borg Cube. If the Borg took the Death star head on they would most likely lose eventually.

Except the Borg are apparently capable of creating a 90 Isoton warhead. Isoton, no I have no idea either, except it would spread out over more than a solar system. So in the manner we eliminated the Fur Factor, We eliminate the Doom machines.

Jedi? The Empire had two Sith, but if you want to include them I will see your Jedi and Raise 1 Q. In this manner I'll eliminate the Super Hero Element as well.

Star Destroyers VS Borg Cubes. Now we're talking. It would take an entire fleet of Star Destroyers to destroy one planet. The Borg Don't destroy planets, they assimilate them. From on-screen documentation a Star Destroyer and a Borg Cube are a good Match.

So, let’s talk tactics. In a short blitz war, they might pound each other to death, just firing disruptors and turbo-lasers at each other. The Borg are shown to have amazing regenerative powers, but Star Destroyers are built for this kind of fight.

In a long war, a war of territory, the Borg Win. Anytime Side A is destroying Side B, and Side B is converting Side A, Side B wins. If the Empire completely destroyed the holdings of Borg Space, the Borg could have assimilated as many new planets, and unlike a traditional war, have those resources available immediately. The Empire could adapt a scorched-earth policy and destroy planets being assimilated by the Borg, but now the Empire is destroying as much of itself as it is the Borg. Remember there are no non-combatant Borg. There are no Borg Civilians.

Fleet maneuverability. Hyperspace is a nice way to travel. So is Trans-Warp, and Transwarp Hubs, which can send you from the Delta Quadrant to the Alpha Quadrant in minutes.

Finally, if there was only one Imperial left in the universe, the Empire would fall. A new Empire might rise, but the Empire of Palpatine would be gone. If one Borg Drone survived, the nightmare would begin again.

Star Wars VS. Star Trek. Trek Wins, but who want to be a Borg?

Feds vs. Empire is a lop-sided argument. Once you get past the pseudo-science and my giga-watt is bigger than your giga-watt conversations, we are talking about an Empire that spans 1/4 of it's galaxy with one that spans about 1/12.

If you don't like the odds with the Borg, then you are looking at the Empire VS the Dominion. Both are comparable in size, and both use clones as soldiers. Both use similar tactics. The Dominion has an advantage in espionage, and the Empire has an advantage in ship size. If Imperial shields are initially vulnerable to phased polaron beams, the initial salvos could seriously hurt the Empire. I think Empire VS Dominion end in a Draw.

You never know though. After all, the Empire did fall to a rag-tag band of Rebel Scum; The Borg fell to the Courage of individuals who refused to give up.

Maybe we should pit writer against writer, see who would win in a cage match.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Interesting analysis, Arakim. I think you over-rate the Empire, though - a Borg Cube, even the smaller 900-meter Cubes, are significantly larger than an ISD, in terms of actual volume (which is the key size factor in space). Further, even if the Empire does cover 1/4 of its galaxy (or more), the size of the SW galaxy is in dispute, and may well be significantly smaller than ours. And even if it isn't, just because the Empire controls that large a territory doesn't guarantee that it has a superior war machine or ability to wage war. Territorial size alone does not directly correspond to the ability to wage war, because there are so many other factors involved. The whole 'my gigawatt is bigger than your gigawatt' thing really is very important, because if my energy output is significantly higher than yours (such as the 2-3 orders of magnitude (or possibly 6+) that appear to be the difference between Trek and Wars firepower).

The key factors in a comparison like this are:
Energy output (firepower and endurance)
Weapons range
Weapons accuracy
Sublight speed and maneuverability
FTL speed and maneuverability

Additional factors to consider are:
Industrial technology and capacity
Available resources
Available personnel
Unique or special technology
Significant differences in other technology levels

The Federation has firepower, weapons range, weapons accuracy, and sublight speed and maneuverability. The Empire might have FTL speed, but the Federation probably has FTL maneuverability. The Federation also has superior industrial technology, and potentially superior industrial capacity, may have comparable or possibly superior available resources (due to apparent resource wealth, coupled with superior resource acquisition and refinement technology) even if the Empire has the larger territory. The Empire almost certainly has available personnel, but probably not an insanely overwhelming margin, since small bands of rebels, small fleets of ships, single space stations, etc. were significant threats, and had critical influence. The Federation also has several advantages in unique or special technology, of which the Empire has few, if any. The Federation also has significant advantages in sensor technology, tractor beam technology, electronic counter-measures, and numerous other technologies shared by both powers.

[Catamount]

I see no problem in assuming the Wars galaxy is as big as our own for the sake of this debate, but even so, that means the Empire basically has the size of the Dominion without the technology.

Imagine if Dominion ships showed firepower that was orders of magnitude less than the UFP, and at the same time couldn't hit ships with their weapons from more than a few kilometers away with 99% of their weaponry (the Death Star super laser being the only apparent exception). Like I said, this war would basically see the UFP pumping out Akira class starships until they were blue in the face and doing FTL torpedo runs, hitting Imperial task forces with thousands of photon torpedoes at a time. It would just be a blood bath, because Wars tech is just not designed to compete with Starfleet tech. It evolved in the Wars universe, and it designed to combat different types of technology, making it potentially completely ineffective against Federation tech.

The fact that the Wars universe has literally been technologically stagnant for thousands of years also puts their adaptability into question. Wars races are just not great innovators.

[Cualtemuac]

I'd say one of there are two factors that will always swing in the Empire's favor. It comes down to the nature of Star Wars and Star Trek Universes. Star Trek is about science and Star Wars is Greek and Norse Epics(and westerns which are our american equivelents) set amongst the stars. Since the Empire is driven by an evil genious with extensive knowledge of what is essentially black magic right? If the Federation is limited to the rules of it's own universe then they can never win. Would they blow up planets and enslave entire species to win? I was always a star wars fan before I was a star trek fan but I keep the two seperate because they just aren't compatable. Besides, once the Empire destroyed the alpha quadrant it would only be a matter of time before the borg assimilated everything.

[Catamount]

I'd say one of there are two factors that will always swing in the Empire's favor. It comes down to the nature of Star Wars and Star Trek Universes. Star Trek is about science and Star Wars is Greek and Norse Epics(and westerns which are our american equivelents) set amongst the stars. Since the Empire is driven by an evil genious with extensive knowledge of what is essentially black magic right? If the Federation is limited to the rules of it's own universe then they can never win. Would they blow up planets and enslave entire species to win? I was always a star wars fan before I was a star trek fan but I keep the two seperate because they just aren't compatable. Besides, once the Empire destroyed the alpha quadrant it would only be a matter of time before the borg assimilated everything.

Well first off, none of that "magic" would play into the Empire's favor because force sensitives were either basically all killed, or all went into hiding when the Empire took over. I would chalk up the Jedi as an interesting advantage in a war between the 2, except that even if there were any Jedi around, they'd sooner fight for the UFP than the Empire! Of course, the same is also true of the Rebellion, which the Empire would have to fight while taking on the UFP because the Empire was never stable in the sense of having a population that wasn't in a state of revolution. Unrest was present during the entire Imperial rule. So put simply, the Federation doesn't just have technology on their side, they have stability. How many countless thousands or millions of people under Imperial rule would either revolt or actively form resistance movements to oppose or sabotage the Empire after hearing that a democratic interplanetary government dedicated to the common good and peaceful exploration had challenged that Empire? I'm wagering quite a few. Hell, given the fact that a significant number of characters Wars focuses on are defectors from the Empire (Tycho Cechu, Kyle Katarn, General Brenn Tantor, Biggs Darklighter, so on and so forth), I can image that would only become a bigger problem once a more powerful, more legitimate government challenged the Empire.

[sintar07]

For all you people getting into the Borg vs the Empire thing, take a look at this:

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4654869/1/Assimilation

It's just a fanfiction, but it specifically addresses the Cube vs Death Star thing. I think it's pretty much what would happen.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

There's also the fact that ruthlessness and a willingness to use atrocities to win does not guarantee a victory for the ruthless, nor defeat for those who follow morality. No, the Federation wouldn't blow up planets or enslave races, but that's not a weakness. In many ways, it's a strength, because only the people who see no problem in committing atrocities would willingly chose that side, leaving a lot more people to side with the Federation. Further, crimes of atrocity would not sway the Emperor or any who willingly follow him. The Federation would inspire rebellion in the Empire, while rallying a vast, diverse army in a unified cause against them. And, really, blowing huge amounts of resources on a weapon of terror is never, ever as effective as spending that same amount of money on a weapon or weapons of war. The Death Star is a weapon of terror, designed from the core up to terrorize the enemy, make them afraid, and use their fear and horror to force them into submission. It is not a weapon of war, and would not be an effective use of resources in a war (how many ISDs and SSDs could have been built for just one Death Star?). A massive armada, that could have projected considerable force in hundreds or thousands of places at once, would be a far more effective weapon than one battlestation that can only be in one place at a time, even when trained on internal unrest and revolt instead of an outside enemy. The Rebellion would have had a MUCH harder time mounting a significant resistance if the Empire had fielded 16,771,593 ISDs that occupy the same volume as the original Death Star instead of putting all those resources into building a single battlestation - 16.77 million ISDs (or even more smaller ships) that could have been deployed across the Empire, defending against Rebel raiding attacks, gathering intelligence, and launching attacks against Rebel strongholds.

Yet the Emperor built the Death Star, a very, very wasteful and ineffective use of resources, that was ultimately a failure. It didn't inspire fear and panic and submission as it was intended to, but bravery and daring, valiant and courageous actions, and created heros.

So no, I don't think the Empire's willingness to build ineffective superweapons is any kind of strength at all.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

New copypasta on the Galactic Republic clone army strength (bolding mine):

AotC Script:

"Two hundred thousand units are ready, with another million well on the way."

AotC Script:

"Those items you saw on the parade ground were started ten years ago, when Sifo-Dyas first placed the order, and they're already mature."

AotC Novelization, Ch. 15

The units you will soon see on the parade ground we started ten years ago, when Sifo-Dyas first placed the order, and they're already mature and quite ready for duty."

[...]

The callousness of it all struck Obi-Wan profoundly. Units. Final product. These were living beings they were talking about. Living, breathing, and thinking. To create clones for such a singular purpose, under such control, even stealing half their childhood for efficiency, assaulted his sense of right and wrong, and the fact that a Jedi Master had begun all of this was almost too much to digest.

AotC Novelization, Ch. 16:

"Yes, Master," Obi-Wan said. "Prime Minister Lama Su has informed me that the first battalion of clone troopers are ready for delivery. He also wanted me to remind you that if we require more--and they've another million well on the way to completion--it will take more time to grow them."

"A million clone warriors?" Mace Windu asked in disbelief.

"Yes, Master. They say Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for the clone army almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that. Did the Council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?"

[Catamount]

Well Ilithi, those exerpts do seem to confirm the 1.2 million clone trooper number rather than the idea of 1.2 million units meaning 1.2 million groups. That seems absurdly small for an intergalactic army though, unless the Wars Galaxy really is quite tiny.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Well Ilithi, those exerpts do seem to confirm the 1.2 million clone trooper number rather than the idea of 1.2 million units meaning 1.2 million groups. That seems absurdly small for an intergalactic army though, unless the Wars Galaxy really is quite tiny.

An inter-stellar civilization covering a small portion of a modest-sized galaxy would find that to be a fairly sizable army, if it hadn't seen war for hundreds or thousands of years.

The Empire does not have to be very big to fit into the SW universe, not in galactic terms. We're told the Empire has a million worlds, and we're also told that most of the stars in the SW galaxy have planetary systems. Even assuming that only 1 in 3 star systems in the Empire has any planets, and only 1 in 100 of those systems are inhabited by the Empire (1 in 300 star systems in the Empire would be inhabited - pretty sparsely populated), the Galactic Empire would only span about 10,000 lightyears in a galaxy with comparable solar density to ours, since the Galactic Empire would encompass some 300 million stars, which is about the number of stars that can be found within a 5,000 lightyear radius of Earth. Adjust the figures to a more reasonable value, say 2 out of 3 star systems in the Empire have planets, and 1 out of 5 of those planetary star systems are inhabited, and the Empire could quite easily span only a few thousand lightyears, even in a galaxy with a smaller stellar density than the Milky Way.

[ArdraVentax]

I think star wars is profoundly obsessed with, and cultivates an obsession with, THE DARK SIDE.

Star Trek is infinitely more positive and uplifting. It doesn't try to create a "hokey religion" (in the words of Han Solo) either. We have true religion, we don't need one based on microbiotic oganisms in our blood, thank you very much!

If you sit and think about it, star wars makes very little sense (cuz it was made up as they went along, without the serious thought process applied to the writing/mythology of star trek).

"Luke? Leia? yeah... hmm... get this ... (passes the dutchie to the left hand side) They're going to be brother and sister! Yeah... that's the ticket..."

Also, why the hell does Anakin fulfill prophecy as The Chosen One by becoming evil and killing a bunch of people? That's not christ-like... that's antichrist-like.

:confused: :mad:

[CrisNavarro]

For all you people getting into the Borg vs the Empire thing, take a look at this:

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4654869/1/Assimilation

It's just a fanfiction, but it specifically addresses the Cube vs Death Star thing. I think it's pretty much what would happen.

That was a darn good slice o' fan fiction.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Also, why the hell does Anakin fulfill prophecy as The Chosen One by becoming evil and killing a bunch of people? That's not christ-like... that's antichrist-like.

:confused: :mad:

Well, the prophesy was that he would "bring balance to the Force", so technically, he did do just that by toppling the Jedi Order, which had created an over-abundance of "Light" Jedi, resulting in the (relatively) brief rise of Sith dominance, before it was, in turn, toppled from within, resulting in the rather mixed view of the Force Luke seems to have taken away (following the basic moral principles and codes taught by the Jedi Order, but tempered by emotion to provide a guide to the path that is right and not just correct, such as going off to save his friends, despite Yoda's insistence). The end result is, really, a more balanced approach to the Force, with, for the most part, the galaxy once again left in the control of the non-Jedi masses (who were the only ones to actually do anything of significance in the final battle in RotJ, btw), instead of being dominated by a clade of ubermensch Jedi elites, in what amounted to an oligarchical rule of a genetic aristocracy with the pretenses and self-delusions of a democratic republic.

[Excelsior1977]

I can put and end to that fight quick the jedi are powerfull but not as Q so the Star trek universe is the winner

[CrisNavarro]

I can put and end to that fight quick the jedi are powerfull but not as Q so the Star trek universe is the winner

You'd be amazed and awed by how many people will seriously argue that Vader can Force-Choke Q to death just because Sisko punched him.

[Catamount]

You'd be amazed and awed by how many people will seriously argue that Vader can Force-Choke Q to death just because Sisko punched him.

You know, it's sad how right you are... :)

[ArdraVentax]

bringing balance to the force by eliminating all the jedi sounds like a typical George Lucas faux religion concept to me...

It's the iffy writing and swiss-cheese mythology that ultimately sinks star wars.

Plus, and I'm sure Lucas would probably agree, star wars was meant more as an 'saturday afternoon serial' entertainment vehicle than a serious cultural or philosophical statement.

[CrisNavarro]

bringing balance to the force by eliminating all the jedi sounds like a typical George Lucas faux religion concept to me...

It's the iffy writing and swiss-cheese mythology that ultimately sinks star wars.

Plus, and I'm sure Lucas would probably agree, star wars was meant more as an 'saturday afternoon serial' entertainment vehicle than a serious cultural or philosophical statement.

I've always seen Star Wars as Medeival Fantasy wrapped in Sci Fi skin. That said I do enjoy it. I even like the EU material...mainly because it's hilarious watching the Warsies scramble everytime Lucas puts out something that totally flies in the face of the "Canonical" EU material. And you can't truly apprecciate the comedy of these moments unless you're familiar with the EU :D

[Catamount]

Star Wars is plenty good fiction as long as you don't take it for something it isn't. It's not Star Trek, nor does it have the qualities that make Trek unique, but it is a good story with an interesting backdrop.

[sintar07]

I've always seen Star Wars as Medeival Fantasy wrapped in Sci Fi skin. That said I do enjoy it. I even like the EU material...mainly because it's hilarious watching the Warsies scramble everytime Lucas puts out something that totally flies in the face of the "Canonical" EU material. And you can't truly apprecciate the comedy of these moments unless you're familiar with the EU :D

lol. Like the whole 3 million clones thing :D

What I really loved about that was that the rabid Warsies just threw the number out, despite the fact that they're always accusing their Trekkie "foes" of "cheating" by throwing out numbers that don't make sense.

...and then one of them made a video about killing the woman who originated that particular piece of canon...

Seiously, with all the death threats and death fantasies that these guys write, I'm really starting to think they all need to go to a mental ward.

[sintar07]

That was a darn good slice o' fan fiction.

I know:)

I liked the bit where the ex-drone kicked Vader's ass :D

[Excelsior1977]

If you want to see a reel fight of Star Wars Vs Star Trek go there and watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNxhrPaaCA4

It is very funny and I think the best way to put a final and of this forum is like I think right now and it a TIE.

[Haereticum_Leti]

As big of a fan as I am of both Star Wars and Star Trek, I can't really say that either would be superior in a fair fight. They rely on different rules for engagement:
Star Wars lets ships fly through shields to do damage beneath them. (fighters like X-Wings or TIE Fighters)
Star Trek does not, it must attack through shields and then can attacks actually harm the ship. (no fighters)

If they battled, one style of combat would have to work, either ships could go through shields and combat beneath them or they couldn't, there is no middle option to a yes or no, meaning that that side would have the upper hand.

[vp21ct]

New Enterprise pwns everything Star Wars would throw at it. They'd all be to busy admiring it to fire.

[sintar07]

New Enterprise pwns everything Star Wars would throw at it. They'd all be to busy admiring it to fire.

True. I hated the design the first time I saw it, but it was just at an unflattering angle. It looks so much better in motion. So pretty...

[vp21ct]

True. I hated the design the first time I saw it, but it was just at an unflattering angle. It looks so much better in motion. So pretty...

I bought the Figureine today and I just can't stop moving it around (IT HAS A POSABLE STAND). It really is a beautiful ship.

[Zyrious]

I bought the Figureine today and I just can't stop moving it around (IT HAS A POSABLE STAND). It really is a beautiful ship.

I love the New Enterprise design. I was in awe every time i saw it. So yeah, that alone would destroy the Empire. They'd be to busy staring at it. And then it'd fire 30 phaser turrets accurate enough to hit missiles and a shitload of torpedo's....

[Catamount]

Ooooooooooh man, look what thread is back. So, uh, what's changed in the past few months? Absolutely nothing. Star Trek wins by a long shot.

[vp21ct]

Now to begin a NEW debate. How would TNU fair against the Empire.


MUHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH.

[sintar07]

I bought the Figureine today and I just can't stop moving it around (IT HAS A POSABLE STAND). It really is a beautiful ship.

Dude, where'd you get a ship cast? I want it!!

[vp21ct]

admitedly, I bought the toy from K-mart. But it STILL has a posable stand. Thats just awesome.

actually quite detailed. I'm going to have a friend hotwire it so the On/Off switch makes the lights STAY on.

[Zyrious]

admitedly, I bought the toy from K-mart. But it STILL has a posable stand. Thats just awesome.

I totally have to get me one. Infact, i'd like to have a model of both the USS Enterprise AND the USS Kelvin. Both Beautiful ships.

[starfleet09]

ME too, lol, I say we find him and get it.

I got a Star Trek movie background for my twitter page at http://tweetcustom.com Real Trekkie Stuff

[vp21ct]

I totally have to get me one. Infact, i'd like to have a model of both the USS Enterprise AND the USS Kelvin. Both Beautiful ships.

the Kelvin will probably be a real model, and I'll definetly get that when it comes out.

[hyperion0]

Well, Star Wars is simple, no rules or anything scientific in it, but if you realy want to know, here you are:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNxhrPaaCA4

[Catamount]

You know, between the sheer differences in firepower, the FTL and luminal-velocity weaponry, the superior power generation, and just the general competence of design behind Starfleet ships, I'd honestly love to make a movie about how that battle would really turn out, but it would be so one-sided towards the Federation it wouldn't even be any fun to watch.

Now to begin a NEW debate. How would TNU fair against the Empire.


MUHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH.

ehhhhhh, I'm actually going to go with Empire on that one.

[Extreme9869]

That was a cool video, hard to say who would win in the end. One thing to think about though, Jedi boarding parties, I dont think anyone in starfleet would be able to stop them. Even their phasers would be useless against Jedi.

[sintar07]

That was a cool video, hard to say who would win in the end. One thing to think about though, Jedi boarding parties, I dont think anyone in starfleet would be able to stop them. Even their phasers would be useless against Jedi.

We've been through this one more than once too. A few things.

1. The Jedi would not fight the Federation. The Jedi are peaceful and believe in negotiation first. The Federation is peaceful and believes in negotiation first. When one takes into account the force guiding the Jedi, it would be almost impossible to make these two groups fight one another.

2. Even if the Jedi could be convinced to fight the Federation, they would not do so for the Empire.

3. We don't know how phasers would react to a lightsaber. It's likely that they could be deflected or blocked, but remember that they are vastly more advanced than blasters. Also, an energy stream, as opposed to an energy bolt, could be very difficult to block (yes, I know that Mace Windu blocked an energy beam in the cartoons, but a beam is different than a stream).

[Ilithi_Dragon]

We've been through this one more than once too. A few things.

1. The Jedi would not fight the Federation. The Jedi are peaceful and believe in negotiation first. The Federation is peaceful and believes in negotiation first. When one takes into account the force guiding the Jedi, it would be almost impossible to make these two groups fight one another.

2. Even if the Jedi could be convinced to fight the Federation, they would not do so for the Empire.

3. We don't know how phasers would react to a lightsaber. It's likely that they could be deflected or blocked, but remember that they are vastly more advanced than blasters. Also, an energy stream, as opposed to an energy bolt, could be very difficult to block (yes, I know that Mace Windu blocked an energy beam in the cartoons, but a beam is different than a stream).

4. Wide beam phasers.

[SpiderWolve]

4. Wide beam phasers.

5. To sum it up, the Jedi would join up with the Feds to aid in defeating the Evil Empire.


...there's a good story in that somewhere. :)

[sintar07]

5. To sum it up, the Jedi would join up with the Feds to aid in defeating the Evil Empire.


...there's a good story in that somewhere. :)

Do you hear that? Something's coming! I think it's a fanfic...

[SpiderWolve]

Do you hear that? Something's coming! I think it's a fanfic...

LOL...sure. As soon as I figure out where to start :P

[Neshy]

its all been done before. star wars weaponry cant scratch a federation ships shields. jedi powers are useless out of the star wars universe.


Trek Wins!

[vp21ct]

hmmmm. I might just take up the challenge of making a fanfic for ST vs SW set in the Clone Wars/TNU.


MUAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

[RanizMurjuri]

WHy does this debate never end?
why do you have to have rules to close most of the "Canon" to both universes.


Basically what it all boils down to.. is

WWII weapons vs. Post Veitnam Weapons.
Star Wars Vs........... Star trek

[Kraye]

WHy does this debate never end?
why do you have to have rules to close most of the "Canon" to both universes.


Basically what it all boils down to.. is

WWII weapons vs. Post Veitnam Weapons.
Star Wars Vs........... Star trek

Death Star FTW.............move along, move along.

[vp21ct]

Death Star FTW.............move along, move along.

One word

Jellyfish

You know that your superweapon is pathetic when it can be blown up by a ship with a name like that.

[rogelio11]

Well, Star Wars is simple, no rules or anything scientific in it, but if you realy want to know, here you are:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNxhrPaaCA4

That is a funny video. It's funny that Worf said on the megawatts of power from those tie fighters and commander Riker say that the tie fighters can barely hit the shields and within a battle in a matter of mins.

I would say that star trek is quite better.
But I still love both star trek and star wars in my opinion.

[jcmcg128]

Death Star FTW.............move along, move along.



This says it all!!!!!!

[ZeframCochrane]

People, don't make me say this again. The death star was blown up by a wannabe Jedi, his friends in their rag tag ships and a bunch of overgrown furbies.

[Lordflash97]

The Galactic Empire at its prime height,(shortly before A New Hope) would totally crush the federation even at its height.

[Phunix]

I'd love to see a mission in the game called something along the lines like "A galaxy too far".
"Captain, we've seem to have ended up in some galaxy far far away, in a time long ago." :D

[Zyrious]

Dun dun dun, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4ijDlbvAxw

[starshipcaptain]

um those movies are not acuarate becaue if i made you tube viedo of ST vs SW i wodl make star wars win.

why cant we agree ot disagree

[ZeframCochrane]

The Galactic Empire at its prime height,(shortly before A New Hope) would totally crush the federation even at its height.


No supporting info? Just a statement?

[MuranOrwes]

Technologically, the Rebel Alliance could not have won against the Empire. However, they did it because they had something that the Empire somewhat lacked: capable commanders and determined personnel who were fighting for a one single cause. Imperial commanders were either incompetent or desired power for themselves. If the Federation were to go against the Empire, I'm sure that they would eventually adapt and adopt tactics similar to the Rebellion.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

No supporting info? Just a statement?

Of course not. There is no support for such statements, after all. } ; = 8 )


Technologically, the Rebel Alliance could not have won against the Empire. However, they did it because they had something that the Empire somewhat lacked: capable commanders and determined personnel who were fighting for a one single cause. Imperial commanders were either incompetent or desired power for themselves. If the Federation were to go against the Empire, I'm sure that they would eventually adapt and adopt tactics similar to the Rebellion.

The Federation wouldn't have to: They're technologically superior in almost every way, possibly EVERY way. Hyperdrive isn't the uber-drive it's made out to be - the SW canon indicates that it's much, much lower than the pan-galactic capabilities the EU has applied to it (based on a couple hyperbolic comments from ANH and TESB taken as literal statements, one of which was made by Han Solo, of all people), and may well even actually be SLOWER than warp drive, if the Empire/Republic is only a few thousand lightyears across (which the canon indicates is possible - a million worlds in the Empire, most stars having habitable planets, the Empire/Republic spanning 'a small corner of a modest-sized galaxy', and maps that indicate the 'outer rim' about half-way between the core and rim of the SW galaxy; even with an average stellar density notably less than that of the Milky Way, the entirety of the SW saga could easily take place within an area less than 10,000 lightyears across - the size of the Federation or smaller).

Trek weaponry has far, far greater range, and has precision accuracy at far, far, far, FAR greater range (tens and hundreds of thousands of kilometers for energy weapons to millions and billions of kilometers for torpedoes against moving targets, compared to a kilometer or two against kilometer-long capital ships sitting in park), Trek weaponry puts out far more firepower - going per unit of volume, a modest-sized fleet of Federation ships could accomplish the same destructive effects as the Death Star, over the course of a couple hours. A larger fleet could do it in nearly the same amount of time, for a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the total vehicle size. A fleet of just 20 ships was projected to blast a roughly Earth-sized planetoid down to its nickel-iron core with just several hours orbital bombardment in TNG "The Die is Cast." That's 20 ships, comprising the total volume of maybe 5 ISDs. 200 ships, comprising the volume of some 15 - 25 ISDs could obliterate a planet in a few hours or less. 2000 ships could probably do it in a matter of minutes, and we're up to 150 - 250 ISDs, in size (which doesn't equal firepower, just a rough measure of raw materials used). 20,000 Trek ships should be about enough to accomplish the same destructive effects of the Death Star, or about 1500 - 2500 ISDs worth of raw materials in Trek ships. The first Death Star is the size of some 16,771,593 ISDs. So, SW has to build a massive mobile battlestation to achieve the same effects that Trek could do with 1/6710th the cost in material resources.

Trek ships are faster at sublight, as well, and far more maneuverable. Trek ships have vastly superior sensors that provide vastly superior scanning and data processing capacity. Trek power systems are far more powerful, and far more efficient, and use energetic plasma as a means of energy transfer and a source of power, while Wars power systems are still using conductive wiring, which has limits in transfer capacity and efficiency at extremely high energy levels. Trek ships have transporter technology, holographic technology, replicator technology, and a myriad of other advanced technologies and equipment that vastly surpass the performance of the comparable Wars equipment, or that the Wars powers simply don't have.

Trek military forces are also larger - the Grand Army of the Republic numbered only some 1.2 million clones at the start of the Clone Wars, per the canon dialogue. The Cardassian Union, one of the smaller notable powers, lost over 7 million troops in the Dominion War by the time the Cardassian resistance began overt activities, meaning the Cardassians LOST more troops in less than two years of a war that they were generally winning than the Galactic Republic ever had - several times more. The Federation is significantly larger than the Cardassian Union, with considerably superior military force, putting them easily an order of magnitude or more above the Republic and quite possibly even the Empire in terms of numerical strength of arms.

Then you have the competence and education of the Federation vs the incompetence and power struggles of the Empire, and the Empire's own inherent instability. Faced with a serious external power that has benevolent intentions, the Empire could very well just collapse upon itself.

[Federationrulz]

Of course not. There is no support for such statements, after all. } ; = 8 )




The Federation wouldn't have to: They're technologically superior in almost every way, possibly EVERY way. Hyperdrive isn't the uber-drive it's made out to be - the SW canon indicates that it's much, much lower than the pan-galactic capabilities the EU has applied to it (based on a couple hyperbolic comments from ANH and TESB taken as literal statements, one of which was made by Han Solo, of all people), and may well even actually be SLOWER than warp drive, if the Empire/Republic is only a few thousand lightyears across (which the canon indicates is possible - a million worlds in the Empire, most stars having habitable planets, the Empire/Republic spanning 'a small corner of a modest-sized galaxy', and maps that indicate the 'outer rim' about half-way between the core and rim of the SW galaxy; even with an average stellar density notably less than that of the Milky Way, the entirety of the SW saga could easily take place within an area less than 10,000 lightyears across - the size of the Federation or smaller).

Trek weaponry has far, far greater range, and has precision accuracy at far, far, far, FAR greater range (tens and hundreds of thousands of kilometers for energy weapons to millions and billions of kilometers for torpedoes against moving targets, compared to a kilometer or two against kilometer-long capital ships sitting in park), Trek weaponry puts out far more firepower - going per unit of volume, a modest-sized fleet of Federation ships could accomplish the same destructive effects as the Death Star, over the course of a couple hours. A larger fleet could do it in nearly the same amount of time, for a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the total vehicle size. A fleet of just 20 ships was projected to blast a roughly Earth-sized planetoid down to its nickel-iron core with just several hours orbital bombardment in TNG "The Die is Cast." That's 20 ships, comprising the total volume of maybe 5 ISDs. 200 ships, comprising the volume of some 15 - 25 ISDs could obliterate a planet in a few hours or less. 2000 ships could probably do it in a matter of minutes, and we're up to 150 - 250 ISDs, in size (which doesn't equal firepower, just a rough measure of raw materials used). 20,000 Trek ships should be about enough to accomplish the same destructive effects of the Death Star, or about 1500 - 2500 ISDs worth of raw materials in Trek ships. The first Death Star is the size of some 16,771,593 ISDs. So, SW has to build a massive mobile battlestation to achieve the same effects that Trek could do with 1/6710th the cost in material resources.

Trek ships are faster at sublight, as well, and far more maneuverable. Trek ships have vastly superior sensors that provide vastly superior scanning and data processing capacity. Trek power systems are far more powerful, and far more efficient, and use energetic plasma as a means of energy transfer and a source of power, while Wars power systems are still using conductive wiring, which has limits in transfer capacity and efficiency at extremely high energy levels. Trek ships have transporter technology, holographic technology, replicator technology, and a myriad of other advanced technologies and equipment that vastly surpass the performance of the comparable Wars equipment, or that the Wars powers simply don't have.

Trek military forces are also larger - the Grand Army of the Republic numbered only some 1.2 million clones at the start of the Clone Wars, per the canon dialogue. The Cardassian Union, one of the smaller notable powers, lost over 7 million troops in the Dominion War by the time the Cardassian resistance began overt activities, meaning the Cardassians LOST more troops in less than two years of a war that they were generally winning than the Galactic Republic ever had - several times more. The Federation is significantly larger than the Cardassian Union, with considerably superior military force, putting them easily an order of magnitude or more above the Republic and quite possibly even the Empire in terms of numerical strength of arms.

Then you have the competence and education of the Federation vs the incompetence and power struggles of the Empire, and the Empire's own inherent instability. Faced with a serious external power that has benevolent intentions, the Empire could very well just collapse upon itself.


I disagree with the military might of the Old Republic. It stated 100,000 clones were ready, with a million more units on the way? WHat unit? Individual soldiers? Squads of nine troopers each? Maybe a regiment of 144 troopers? We don't know! There is a large discussion on this on the GAR page on the star wars wiki.

At the same time, the battle droid population on the CIS side was in the quadrillions! Give me some time, I'll find the source.....

The Empire had 1,000,000 troopers on their super weapon alone. Think about the "Imperial might" mentioned all through Galactica Civil War-related books/movies.

The Rebels had hundreds of star systems under their banners, yet still didn't have a fraction of the Imperial's power!

Plus, trillions died during the Yuuzhan Vong War alone!

The armies in Star Wars was massive! And they had vessels that held one hundred times the amount of people the galaxy class could. That is not stretching the truth, either. Look up Imperial II class Stardestroyers.

[Silverspar]

Technologically, the Rebel Alliance could not have won against the Empire. However, they did it because they had something that the Empire somewhat lacked: capable commanders and determined personnel who were fighting for a one single cause. Imperial commanders were either incompetent or desired power for themselves. If the Federation were to go against the Empire, I'm sure that they would eventually adapt and adopt tactics similar to the Rebellion.

Most of us call that a plot device and horrid storytelling :p

Also I think this (http://www.lilformers.com/index.php/2009/05/11/lil-formers-146-holy-trek/) settles the debate :p Though I don't agree with the authors declarations that the last 40 years of Trek are gone (though there is definitely a lot of things that happened in Trek because of fan desires that need to be wiped away as if they never happened).

[MuranOrwes]

Haha yes, I suppose, but they are still factors that can play into the outcome of any battle.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

I disagree with the military might of the Old Republic. It stated 100,000 clones were ready, with a million more units on the way? WHat unit? Individual soldiers? Squads of nine troopers each? Maybe a regiment of 144 troopers? We don't know! There is a large discussion on this on the GAR page on the star wars wiki.

At the same time, the battle droid population on the CIS side was in the quadrillions! Give me some time, I'll find the source.....

The Empire had 1,000,000 troopers on their super weapon alone. Think about the "Imperial might" mentioned all through Galactica Civil War-related books/movies.

The Rebels had hundreds of star systems under their banners, yet still didn't have a fraction of the Imperial's power!

Plus, trillions died during the Yuuzhan Vong War alone!

The armies in Star Wars was massive! And they had vessels that held one hundred times the amount of people the galaxy class could. That is not stretching the truth, either. Look up Imperial II class Stardestroyers.

The books aren't canon. The only books that are in line with the canon of George Lucas' official Star Wars story are the novelizations of the movies, and they're low on the totem pole. The other books are canon to the SW: Expanded Universe story, but not George Lucas' story. The movies, scripts, and movie novelizations paint a very different picture than that painted by the EU (which is widely disparate, depending on the books, author, and time of the book's writing). Per Lucas' own words, the books, etc. that comprise the SW EU are a parallel but separate universe, similar to but distinct from HIS universe that is the SW saga presented in the features.

The dialogue of the movies, and the movie novelizations makes it clear that the Kamino were referring to individual clones when they said 'units', with internal (character thoughts) and external (conversation) dialogue commenting on the dehumanizing aspects of it.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Forgot to address this bit:

Most of us call that a plot device and horrid storytelling :p

Also I think this (http://www.lilformers.com/index.php/2009/05/11/lil-formers-146-holy-trek/) settles the debate :p Though I don't agree with the authors declarations that the last 40 years of Trek are gone (though there is definitely a lot of things that happened in Trek because of fan desires that need to be wiped away as if they never happened).

Actually, there is historical precedent for the underdog winning. They had an interesting bit on NPR's "Fresh Air" a week or two ago about the David vs Goliath effect, and noted that a study showed that the underdog actually one over half the time in most cases, and one over 30% of the time even in cases with vastly disparate forces, because the underdogs more often than not resorted to unorthodox tactisc and thinking outside of the box and doing the unexpected, using every advantage and trick available.

There is also precedent for the success of guerrilla tactics and resistance movements, and the instability and degradation of competence in such oppressive regimes as the Empire. The Rebellion's victory isn't at all surprising, especially given the extreme fragility of the Empire's power base, and the poor management of the Empire by its despots.

[Catamount]

I disagree with the military might of the Old Republic. It stated 100,000 clones were ready, with a million more units on the way? WHat unit? Individual soldiers? Squads of nine troopers each? Maybe a regiment of 144 troopers? We don't know! There is a large discussion on this on the GAR page on the star wars wiki.

At the same time, the battle droid population on the CIS side was in the quadrillions! Give me some time, I'll find the source.....

The Empire had 1,000,000 troopers on their super weapon alone. Think about the "Imperial might" mentioned all through Galactica Civil War-related books/movies.

The Rebels had hundreds of star systems under their banners, yet still didn't have a fraction of the Imperial's power!

Plus, trillions died during the Yuuzhan Vong War alone!

The armies in Star Wars was massive! And they had vessels that held one hundred times the amount of people the galaxy class could. That is not stretching the truth, either. Look up Imperial II class Stardestroyers.

You're crossing Star Wars with EU. Any mention of the Yuuzhan Vong, book mentions of rebel power, Imperial troops counts, etc are useless if not from movie dialogue. We're not discussing EU, if we were, I'd start bringing up ridiculous Star Trek WMDs.

As from as episode II troop counts, I'm not convinced either way, but the point is mute. Trek tech is so vastly superior to Wars tech, which hasn't change fundamentally in over 4,000 years, that any war between them would be quickly decided by the vast disparity not just in firepower, but in accuracy. Manually targeted turrets that have trouble hitting even large, slow-moving Wars capital ships from more than a couple kilometers away would be no match for UFP weaponry. The Trek ships would just fire and fall back, do long distance strafing, or just rely on FTL torpedo runs (especially in vulnerable targets like the Death Star).

Jedi can barely deflect sub-sonic (and so very sub-luminal) energy bolts, which means they wouldn't have a prayer against hand phasers, and wouldn't be very inclined to fight the UFP anyways, and general troops would be limited to that same inaccurate Wars weaponry.

[starshipcaptain]

i thoug hthe asseblye sences wer from the united nations general assembly in Star wars.

[bothan]

It's alive!

Or, at least, its corpse is still slightly warm.

I am beginning to lean towards Star Trek. Firstly, as Captain_Onyx noted in that other thread, Star Trek's main character shielding technology seems to be more highly advanced than that of Star Wars. I don't know if anyone has made a rigorous comparison between the two franchises yet; however, considering that this thread seems to be about a hypothetical war between the Federation and the Empire, I don't think much of the Empire's chances, as the Empire's main character shielding technology is, to all appearances, sadly lacking. In fact, I'm not sure if they even bother to use the technology at all. Perhaps only for a select few, but even then it seems to be quite inferior to that used by the Rebel Alliance.

Secondly, I must humbly revise my opinions on the range of Star Wars spacecraft versus Star Trek spacecraft. I had assumed that the Republic/Empire occupied the vast majority of the Star Wars Galaxy, that said galaxy was comparable in size to the Milky Way Galaxy, and that spacecraft routinely crossed said galaxy. I considered those assumptions eminently reasonable, if not necessarily provable, and, for the most part, still do. However, upon watching "All Our Yesterdays", I have come to realize that my assumptions, even if provable, don't necessarily put Star Wars ahead. After all, if the USS Enterprise can travel millions of light years in only a couple of years (since "Amok Time"), I am forced to admit that the ranges of spacecraft in both franchises is roughly comparable.

I think the best hope for the Empire is to pick a volunteer to go to hyperspace into the Federation flotilla.

[powerwolf]

i think that the galactic empire would win because it's made up of 1000's of different alien races...and the united federation of plantes has what maybe a few 100 at the most??? i have to go with the big number here ...

[Catamount]

Hey, Ilithi, your thread is back.

[RookActual]

Depends on what faction is fighting what faction. For simplicity I'll go with Galactic Empire vs. Federation. Fed vessels are more maneuverable, better shielded, but have fewer weapons systems. The Empire likely has more vessels, with more weapons and these vessels are simply much larger and equipped with fightercraft. These fightercraft would be extremely vulnerable to phaser fire, but would inevitably overwhelm any Federation vessel through vastly superior numbers and powerful fire support from Star Destroyers as well as ridiculously numerous other support vessels.

The only flaw I see is in the fictional power ratings. Supposedly phasers are almost a terrajoule more powerful than the largest turbolaser produced. I would argue that Trek vessels have superior firepower, but from comparatively limited, yet maneuverable sources and that it seems both universe's shielding technology is really mostly on par with the other's. Excluding 1st, 2d and 3d Generation TIE pattern fighters which are not shielded.

[Arcturus]

I used to think technologically Trek had the edge. Transporters, shields (SW shields were hardly mentioned in the movies so I never thought of them)

The one thing Star Wars had was the force, which was a mystical and zen ability that truly trumped anything the Federation had-until...

Episode 1 came out, and said the force was caused by a scientific reason! Midichlorions, they put their trump card into Star Trek's court. Suddenly the Sith are as easy to beat as the guys in "Plato's Stepchildren" with stuff in their bloodstream that made them powerful *similar*

Yes the Empire is expansive and the scale is huge, with troops spanning an entire galaxy and millions of worlds, but they still lost everything in a small skirmish with Ewoks. Sounds like all the Feds have to do is skrimish like the Rebel Alliance does. Not hard with their technology.

[WestAirAviation]

I noticed a lot of you are discrediting the EU, saying it isn't a valid source of material while at the same token stating that the Galactic Empire is the size of a small portion of a quadrant of a Galaxy. My only comment on that is that discrediting the EU is a very harsh retort to Star Wars fans simply because Star Wars has six films to cover its entire saga - meanwhile Star Trek has several TV shows and movies to cover its lore.

Without the EU to compensate, there would be more questions then answers for Star Wars as one can hardly cover as much ''ability/story/history'' with 15 hours of film compared to several thousand from Star Trek. If you are going to argue Star Trek vs Star Wars, you have to include the Star Wars EU. Lucas did when he finished his films, and he's also worked with many of the writers and artists who have contributed to it.

Also: Borg > Jedi.

[bothan]

A couple more considerations. Forgive me if they've already been brought up in this lengthy thread.

Firstly, as RookActual noted, there's the matter of number of beam emitters. Accuracy may not be terribly important when you can throw up a wall of turbolasers. (Not that this ever happened in the movies, probably due to budget restraints or plot considerations, but the star destroyer models had the guns for it.) Also, given the technology extant in the Star Wars galaxy, I see no reason why they can't automate their weapons systems, as the Federation did some time after "Balance of Terror". In a war this would happen as quickly as possible. (Of course we have little idea what the terrain for this imagined war would look like—an important consideration that at least Gene Roddenberry and George Lucas never had to worry about.)

Secondly, mosinraf brought up the number of worlds in the Galactic Empire vs. the Federation. I know this has been discussed here before, but the results of the discussion so far have led me to believe that those most in favor of the Federation's chances (I'll be a fence-hopper for now. :p) have been ignorant of an important canon fact from the Attack of the Clones opening crawl:

There is unrest in the Galactic
Senate. Several thousand solar
systems have declared their
intentions to leave the Republic.


If several thousand systems have declared their support for the Separatists, how many are left?

[timmy]

Me thinks that Star Trek would dominate the space ship battles but would offer little resistance against the individual Jedi and Sith. It would take some time but Star Trek would slowly and surely lose the war.

[ZeframCochrane]

If I'm not mistaken all but 2 jedi got taken out by the clones and there are only 2 sith at any time. They are hardly invulnerable and even at their height they were a small group.

[timmy]

If I'm not mistaken all but 2 jedi got taken out by the clones and there are only 2 sith at any time. They are hardly invulnerable and even at their height they were a small group.

Well look what just 1 Sith was able to accompilish (Lord Tyrannus). It's not unheard of for this type of thing to happen again and for him or another to single handedly undermine entire governments.

But you are right, i was mistaken, i was thinking back to a time when there were lots and lots of Jedi running around.

[fireraven]

man this thread just keeps coming back to life like Jason Voorhies...
think of the Empire like the Mongol Empire under Genghis Khan and his successors... Large amount of territory with relatively few people in the ruling class compared to the number of subject people.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

It's alive! ALIVE!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA!!!

On the size of the Federation: There are 150+ member races, a majority of whom probably had at least one colony when they joined, with many undoubtedly having multiple colonies, plus the new colonies founded under the Federation flag. The Federation most likely contains a few thousand to several thousand actual worlds.

On the size of the Empire: "Galactic" Empire does not mean that the Empire actually spans the Galaxy. The United States of America, often called just America by those of us living here in the States, doesn't span the entirety of the Americas, after all. Further, we learn in the ANH novelization that the Galactic Empire spans some million worlds, though we don't know what percentage of that is inhabited, nor how dense that inhabitation is. The actual number of inhabited worlds may well be far lower - Counting all the worlds contained in the Federation's territory, and extra-territorial worlds that it lays claims to, the Federation probably contains many millions of worlds. The Galactic Empire appears to cover the entirety of the Galactic Republic, plus some additional territories along the outer rim of the Republic that were not members of the GR. During the Clone Wars, thousands of worlds seceded in the civil war, and the Republic was said to be divided in two. Given that the worlds in the Separatist forces had to be sufficiently large compared to the Loyalist worlds to provide enough resources to maintain the war and present a threat, those several thousand worlds have to have represented a major fraction of the Galactic Republic. Not necessarily close to half the Republic, but not much less than a quarter of the Republic. This puts the number of actual inhabited worlds of the Galactic Republic in the 4-50,000 world range (with 2-10,000 worlds leaving the Republic and the Separatist worlds constituting 20-50% of the Republic).

Considering the Federation had over 1000 worlds as of the 2260s (Kirk's comment to Cochrane, which could have referred to just human colonies, not Federation colonies as a whole), and that the Federation increased in size significantly in the following century, it's very likely that the Federation has at least a few thousand inhabited worlds, and quite possibly several thousand to tens of thousands of worlds. A similar range to the Galactic Empire.


On the EU not being canon: Sorry, hurt feelings and a lack of information in the canon are not valid reasons to make the EU canon. That contradicts Lucas' own statements on the nature of the EU, and scientific process.

[Silverspar]

It's actually been postulated that the galaxy in Star Wars is actually quite a bit smaller than our own Milky Way galaxy, hence their ability to traverse the entire thing with relative easy, despite the similar appearance. I think I've read a figure like on the matter of 10,000 light years across versus the Milky Ways 100,000 light years.

But take that with a grian of salt like anything else Star Wars.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

The size of the SW galaxy was said to be 'modest' in the ANH novelization. The Milkyway is actually a pretty big galaxy - the average size in our local group is something like 50 or 60,000 lightyears in diameter (for the stellar disk region), even excluding the galaxies under 10,000 lightyears across, so the theory that the SW galaxy is smaller than the Milkyway does have merit. Coupled with the continutation of that line in the ANH novelization, that the Empire covers only a small corner of their galaxy, a territorial claim of a million total worlds, with <60,000 inhabited worlds, and most systems in the SW galaxy having inhabitable planets, the entirety of the SW saga could easily take place within an area of space notably smaller than the Federation, even with a much lower stellar density than the Milky Way's average (which is about what we have in the area around our star). There are a few million stars within 250 lightyears of Earth, and even with a fraction of the stellar density surrounding Sol, just a radius of a couple thousand lightyears would be more than enough to contain the Galactic Empire and all the events in the SW saga. The Empire could very easily be much, much smaller than the Federation, and hyperdrive could easily be much, much slower than warp drive.

[Admiral_Trane]

Don't know if this has been mentioned before but if the Federation used Borg technology Star Wars would be obliterated.

[WestAirAviation]

I really hate to make a habit out of showing off my nerd side in internet arguments, especially over something that really just doesn't matter, but I'll contest your argument that the SW Galaxy is the size of Federation Space. Except I won't use the EU or the book, but the film.

Take 1: The Millenium Falcon flies off towards the Galaxy from the end of ESB. It has to go pretty fast to reach that Galaxy. They are sitting in wild space; beyond the Galaxy edge.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/f/fc/Empireendshot.jpg

Take 2: The Jedi Archive computer shows the Galaxy and 2 satellite Galaxies. Galaxies with satellites are usually larger than said satellites.
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/8/8a/GalacticMap-Jedi-Archives.jpg

Take 3: The same Jedi Archive map later zooms in to Kamino. This is what is shown while zooming in:'
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6886/jediarchivmap2xd9.jpg

We all know Star Trek would win (I mean, they have a nuke in every torpedo), but your evidence for destroying all of the EU and Star Wars lore is rather bare and mostly just speculation. George Lucas works with most EU writers, he's helped with video game story and takes a lot of EU content to put into his movies; but even when we delete generations of books, comics, and video games the movies show a Galaxy larger than a quadrant.

Anyways. Kenobi flickers through the entire Galaxy on the archives; Padme flicks through the entire spiral on her starships screen if you watch closely while on Tatooine, and ships fly towards that Galaxy in the 5th film. It's a large Galaxy, regardless of how we take the context of an Imperial Officers words.

[bothan]

According to Memory Alpha's article on the UFP:

By the early 2370s, the Federation's territory was spread across 8,000 light years, with a membership of over 150 worlds and over 1,000 semi-autonomous colonies. (DS9: "Battle Lines"; VOY: "Innocence"; Star Trek: First Contact)

Not exactly a precise number, but it allows one to make a rough comparison between the number of worlds which comprise the Federation and the Empire. Of course, this ignores the (probably negligible) difference between "worlds" and "systems". It also ignores the (much less negligible) differences in population between worlds, except that one might expect the average colony to have a smaller population than the average member world.

Nor is "modest" a precise size, but it suggests that the Star Wars galaxy is neither at the large end (~300,000 ly in diameter) nor at the small end (~300 ly in diameter) of the scale. To me the option that makes the most sense is a spiral galaxy, probably somewhat smaller than the Milky Way. The only canon image I'm aware of is this one (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:GalacticMap-Jedi-Archives.jpg) from Attack of the Clones. I can't really make out distinct spiral arms, but the dust clouds in front of the bulge would indicate that it is, in fact, a spiral galaxy.

[Terry.C.B.]

:cool: STARWARS IS FAR IN SPACE STAR TREK IS IN THIS SPACE

[Arsinoe]

You reopened this thread, what have you done.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo.......................... .............................:eek:

[lvjayman]

So now we can have Star Wars Episode 7: Revenge of the Tribbles.
or Star Trek: The Wrath of the Force. :D

[bothan]

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!

[Catamount]

I really hate to make a habit out of showing off my nerd side in internet arguments, especially over something that really just doesn't matter, but I'll contest your argument that the SW Galaxy is the size of Federation Space. Except I won't use the EU or the book, but the film.

Take 1: The Millenium Falcon flies off towards the Galaxy from the end of ESB. It has to go pretty fast to reach that Galaxy. They are sitting in wild space; beyond the Galaxy edge.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/f/fc/Empireendshot.jpg

Take 2: The Jedi Archive computer shows the Galaxy and 2 satellite Galaxies. Galaxies with satellites are usually larger than said satellites.
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/8/8a/GalacticMap-Jedi-Archives.jpg

Take 3: The same Jedi Archive map later zooms in to Kamino. This is what is shown while zooming in:'
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6886/jediarchivmap2xd9.jpg

We all know Star Trek would win (I mean, they have a nuke in every torpedo), but your evidence for destroying all of the EU and Star Wars lore is rather bare and mostly just speculation. George Lucas works with most EU writers, he's helped with video game story and takes a lot of EU content to put into his movies; but even when we delete generations of books, comics, and video games the movies show a Galaxy larger than a quadrant.

Anyways. Kenobi flickers through the entire Galaxy on the archives; Padme flicks through the entire spiral on her starships screen if you watch closely while on Tatooine, and ships fly towards that Galaxy in the 5th film. It's a large Galaxy, regardless of how we take the context of an Imperial Officers words.

The Millenium Falcon was not flying towards the Galaxy. Did you note in the scene that they're surrounded by stars? They were still in the Galaxy. You can call that whatever you want (forming star, perhaps?), but it isn't the SW Galaxy. If it had been, there would have been nothing but black space around them.

In the second screenshot, that only illustrate that the Star Wars galaxy is larger than its satellite galaxies. If those two Galaxies are 10,000ly across, that would still put the Wars galaxy at only about 40% of our own in diameter.

The third screenshot and subsequent scenes you mentioned don't serve to establish anymore.

As for Trek vs Wars, no, what we all know as per the discussion in this thread is that in every conceivable way the Federation is superior. A comparison of the Death Star's annihilation of Alderaan and the Obsidian Order/ Tal Shiar fleet's attempted bombardment of the Founder homeworld shows that per given amount of volume, Star Trek displays far, far greater firepower just its normal ships than Star Wars displays in a station that literally nothing but a gun with engines.

Star Trek beam weaponry is luminal and has effective ranges of tens to hundreds of thousands of km (depending on the size and speed of the target) and FTL-capable torpedoes (which have yields far greater than that of nuclear weapons) with effective ranges probably in the billions of kilometers. Star Wars? They have manually targeted turrets (yes, they still put people in them to aim by sight) that fire visibly sub-luminal weaponry that frequently miss kilometer+ long capital ships from only a few kilometers away. Wars weapons would not only not overpower Trek ships, they'd never hit them to begin with! The poor Death Star wouldn't last 5 minutes after the Federation decided to dispatch some dozens of vessels to law waste to it with some thousands of photon torpedoes in an FTL hit-and-run attack. The Federation ships would never even drop out of warp, which means they wouldn't even offer a target to fire at.

Wars anti-infantry weapons are so slow, I'd not only call them sub-luminal, but they're visible sub-sonic! It's no wonder the Jedi can deflect them. I could probably deflect a bolt moving that slow!

What's more, Star Trek has far better exotic technologies. Replicators, transporters, phased cloaks, sophisticated use of exotic particles, so on and so fourth. Don't even get me started on what would happen if the Federation was desperate enough to start employing omega-particle weapons, which are so dangerous even the Borg don't like to experiment with it. The level of forbidden technology that represents to all law-abiding races goes so far beyond "banned", it's not even funny. It's for very good reason...

Let's also not forget how much bigger Trek armies are.

New copypasta on the Galactic Republic clone army strength (bolding mine):

AotC Script:

"Two hundred thousand units are ready, with another million well on the way."

AotC Script:

"Those items you saw on the parade ground were started ten years ago, when Sifo-Dyas first placed the order, and they're already mature."

AotC Novelization, Ch. 15

The units you will soon see on the parade ground we started ten years ago, when Sifo-Dyas first placed the order, and they're already mature and quite ready for duty."

[...]

The callousness of it all struck Obi-Wan profoundly. Units. Final product. These were living beings they were talking about. Living, breathing, and thinking. To create clones for such a singular purpose, under such control, even stealing half their childhood for efficiency, assaulted his sense of right and wrong, and the fact that a Jedi Master had begun all of this was almost too much to digest.

AotC Novelization, Ch. 16:

"Yes, Master," Obi-Wan said. "Prime Minister Lama Su has informed me that the first battalion of clone troopers are ready for delivery. He also wanted me to remind you that if we require more--and they've another million well on the way to completion--it will take more time to grow them."

"A million clone warriors?" Mace Windu asked in disbelief.

"Yes, Master. They say Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for the clone army almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that. Did the Council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?"

That dialogue there indicates the entire clone army consisted of fewer troopers than just what the Cardassian lost during the Dominion War. Of course, that also goes to reinforce the small-galaxy theory.

As far as EU is concerned, the writers and Lucas have done a wonderful job writing up a vast and colorful universe, but we're not debating EU at the moment. If you'd like to get into a Star Trek vs Star Wars expanded universe discussion, then might I direct you to John Vornholt's Genesis Wave series? By the time we get to EU, Star Trek doesn't even need to dispatch ships. The exotic technology just gets more and more potent when you get into Trek EU. With a genesis-wave based weapon, they'd literally just set it off and leave the Wars galaxy to be re-written at the atomic level, wiping out all the existing races and species...

[timmy]

The Borg would have they're hands full with the Ewoks.

[Catamount]

The Borg would have they're hands full with the Ewoks.

For about 15 minutes... until... BORG EWOKS :eek: