Star Trek vs Star Wars

[Phlashman]

I don't know, I think it'd be fun to hang with Q for a while...most of what he does is just mischief anyway.

[Napalmer]

Had a frightening thought, what if a Borg assimilated a Jedi, or worse yet a Sith. Would the "Metachlorions" or whatever the hell they explained in Episode 1 be replicated and introduced into the collective?!?! Borgs with lightsabers and force throw would be really really bad...

[Roberto]

(one could argue that doing so 'saved' the Federation, but that's a whole different debate).

I believe he qusai admitted he saved the Federation in a Voyager episodes from doing that - not that this has much to do with the true topic of this post.

[Napalmer]

I think the Q would factor greatly in this battle and they might resent intruders killing their playthings in their own playground. Also, I'd like to point out, the Federation has 2 Rikers, 4 if you count the mirror universe Rikers that have to exist. I don't know anything that could withstand that level of bearded majesty.

[Lizzio]

As i saw this battle on a other forum then Startrekonline ''With some REAL profs''
The Star-wars won by overpowered ships and in the numbers

But yeay there are so many things that star-wars dosnt have such as cloacking devices
''atleast never saw them in the movies'', time travel and more things but this is on both sides

Still Star Trek Owns Star Wars For Me Any Day!!
if you dont agree go play StarWars! ''may the force be with you hahaha!''

[RanizMurjuri]

At least imperials use Line tactics. Federation ships roll around until they blow up

Thats 1 thing the SW saga did very wrong,
They built it on tactics that have not been used since WWI. Ships of the Line no longer use these tactics, basically because the Dreadnoughts are no longer the power of the Navy.

Star Trek on the Other hand took it's tactics from using the Current Navies of the world. where tactics were devolped in WWII but still advance today.

In a full scale war there would be no Line tactics anymore, due to the Submarine entering the Navies.
ST took full advantage of this in thier Canon.
And this is also why you'll find "Carrier Groups" instead of Lines.
There have been cases where ST has used some advanced "Ship of the line" tactics in DS9. but something like that would have to occur if the universal powers went face to face.
In my opinion this was a Set back for ST. As "ship of the line" should have been "battle groups"

the writers for Rick Berman really didn't have the ST thought process gene did.

[Arachnidus]

Okay, I see where yer going. But I think there have been a bit too many time travel stories, in the ST world anyway. The idea I had would create a whole new story from timelines never seen in either Star Wars or Star Trek. But that's why we have these discussions.

Dude, get the new fleet avatars from here (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=201978&postcount=120).

On topic, I have one thing to say- Shields>Lasers, Phasers>Star Wars ships, Photon Torpedoes>???.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Okay, I'll join your "debate".

Were sheilds ever established in Star Wars? I've only seen episodes 3 and 4, so I'm not well informed.

Yup, SW has shields (they were mentioned in the original trilogy, played a prominent role in RotJ, and were made visible in the prequel trilogy). The concern for whether or not they block transporters is a good thought, but they probably do - not counting Borg transporters, Trek transporters aren't able to beam through a lot of interference, so it stands to reason that SW shielding will cause enough interference to prevent Trek transporters from beaming bombs into Wars ships, or Wars personnel into Trek brigs (with craft that have shields, and while the shields are up, at least).

That said, though, Trek has demonstrated superior ship speed and maneuverability, as well as superior weapons range and accuracy, all by orders of magnitude. Further, Wars weaponry (especially those portrayed by the new CGI movie and series, which are apparently official canon) has rather unimpressive firepower, especially compared to Trek weaponry (blasters appear to cause physical trauma roughly comparable to modern-day small-arms projectile weaponry, with comparable rates of fire, where as even the smallest Trek hand phaser can vaporize entire people, and the light blaster cannons mounted on the light walkers appear to put out energy less than or comparable to a modern hand grenade, which we've seen common hand phasers surpass). There are also indications that SW power generation is fusion-based, where as Trek power generation is anti-matter based, which has a straight-up difference of two orders of magnitude.

[cwrblackthunder]

Trek pwns Wars, end of discussion...thread closed lol

[chaotix987]

Yup, SW has shields (they were mentioned in the original trilogy, played a prominent role in RotJ, and were made visible in the prequel trilogy). The concern for whether or not they block transporters is a good thought, but they probably do - not counting Borg transporters, Trek transporters aren't able to beam through a lot of interference, so it stands to reason that SW shielding will cause enough interference to prevent Trek transporters from beaming bombs into Wars ships, or Wars personnel into Trek brigs (with craft that have shields, and while the shields are up, at least).

That said, though, Trek has demonstrated superior ship speed and maneuverability, as well as superior weapons range and accuracy, all by orders of magnitude. Further, Wars weaponry (especially those portrayed by the new CGI movie and series, which are apparently official canon) has rather unimpressive firepower, especially compared to Trek weaponry (blasters appear to cause physical trauma roughly comparable to modern-day small-arms projectile weaponry, with comparable rates of fire, where as even the smallest Trek hand phaser can vaporize entire people, and the light blaster cannons mounted on the light walkers appear to put out energy less than or comparable to a modern hand grenade, which we've seen common hand phasers surpass). There are also indications that SW power generation is fusion-based, where as Trek power generation is anti-matter based, which has a straight-up difference of two orders of magnitude.

On the topic of speed, I believe the fastest speed in SW was "light speed". In Star Trek that would be warp ONE.

Needless to say, every ship I've ever seen in Trek is either warp one or faster.

[spindoc2k3]

On the topic of speed, I believe the fastest speed in SW was "light speed". In Star Trek that would be warp ONE.

Needless to say, every ship I've ever seen in Trek is either warp one or faster.

I was just going to post this very same thought. Sure SW might have more numbers when it comes to fleet battles but if you have a fleet or battle group of ships that can warp in cloaked...

[Ilithi_Dragon]

I was just going to post this very same thought. Sure SW might have more numbers when it comes to fleet battles but if you have a fleet or battle group of ships that can warp in cloaked...

SW ships can go faster than lightspeed. First, Han's comment in the Falcon was that she could make "point five past lightspeed." Point five what, we aren't told, so we can't get any idea of exactly how much faster than light the Falcon could travel, just that she could travel faster than light. Second, any interstellar civilzation like the Republic/Empire HAS to have the capacity to travel at speeds significantly greater than c, whether or not it spans the entire galaxy, and whether the galaxy is larger or small. Crossing even small interstellar distances would take a very long time without the capacity to travel significantly faster than lightspeed, and the SW civilization seems to be built on a much more practical travel time.

The most thorough and objective analysis I've seen puts the average SW FTL speed, their 'cruising speed' above the cruising speed of Federation starships, but puts the peak Federation speed (their maximum sustainable velocity and/or sprinting velocities) above the maximum SW FTL speed.

That said, warp drive gives Trek ships another advantage, because they have the capacity to perform super-luminal attack runs i.e. warp straffing. The SW gunners have a hard enough time hitting targets flying straight at them out of a graviy wel - they would have no hope of hitting even a fleet of starships making fly-by attack runs at warp speed.

[vp21ct]

That said, warp drive gives Trek ships another advantage, because they have the capacity to perform super-luminal attack runs i.e. warp straffing. The SW gunners have a hard enough time hitting targets flying straight at them out of a graviy wel - they would have no hope of hitting even a fleet of starships making fly-by attack runs at warp speed.

That just gave me another idea.

Suppose that the SW sheilds can repel Transporters. Then all you need to do is fly by at low warp speeds and transport for the split seacond you are in range.

[chaotix987]

I want to be fair to SW here, but so far ST wins in every way.

Can someone think of something that SW beats ST at?

[SIMONLEV]

yeah ... In star wars humans have evolved or learned from other alien races the "ways" of the force. This is a step of human evolution that was just beginning to be reached in the ST sega. This force was somehow identified and controlled for 100's of thousands of years by evil and good monarchy's.. hehe yes even yoda was the real authority. So uhh yeah SW is a bit more advanced in terms of actual human physical development. Star Trek wins though

[SIMONLEV]

When i say "This is a step of human evolution that was just beginning to be reached in the ST sega" i am referring to good ol' sexy Wesly Crusher and his little "touch" of human advancement.. i forget the Episode name

[chaotix987]

yeah ... In star wars humans have evolved or learned from other alien races the "ways" of the force. This is a step of human evolution that was just beginning to be reached in the ST sega. This force was somehow identified and controlled for 100's of thousands of years by evil and good monarchy's.. hehe yes even yoda was the real authority. So uhh yeah SW is a bit more advanced in terms of actual human physical development. Star Trek wins though

Only a select few have "force" power.

I don't think you can call the "force" a human evolvtion.

[Verkruk]

I just thought about this when reading the new posts.

Section 31 tech vs Star Fleet tech.

The Star Fleet command heads and assorted leaders of different groups have all committed to being a peaceful race that is focused on being well balanced and with the goal of exploration.
As a result they generally have not put more focus into heavier armaments and weaponry.
They have also willing put restraints on themselves. i.e no cloaking tech.

While Section 31 is a survival at all costs mindset.
They have tougher transporters, heavier shielding, harder hitting weaponry. etc etc.
So I wonder if they would see this fit as a "coming" out of the closet type affair and reveal their fleets of... well, hyper powered vessels.

Could seriously tip the scales as they have shown themselves to be "above" conventional warfare and tactics.

Just thought I'd toss that into the mix.

[vp21ct]

I want to be fair to SW here, but so far ST wins in every way.

Can someone think of something that SW beats ST at?

Resorces

Star Wars has a galaxys worth of rescorces to construct with, while the Federation has very little in comparison.

Even here, though, it gets fuzzy. The Federation has a wonderfully high capacity to build up an industry like no other. Replicators could be made to construct many of the parts of a ship, and then the ship could be assembled using transporter technology. Ships would be finished in days what would take the Empire weeks or even Months to build. And that is concerning ships of same size. Star Destroyers take anywhere from a few months to a year to construct.

Star Wars wins in recorces be cause it has a whole galaxy to mine into oblivion. But Star Trek wins in logistics because they can repair and build ships faster.

[Napalmer]

yeah ... In star wars humans have evolved or learned from other alien races the "ways" of the force. This is a step of human evolution that was just beginning to be reached in the ST sega. This force was somehow identified and controlled for 100's of thousands of years by evil and good monarchy's.. hehe yes even yoda was the real authority. So uhh yeah SW is a bit more advanced in terms of actual human physical development. Star Trek wins though

Now in the Star Wars books, which I am almost ashamed to admit I read, The attacking aliens from the other Galaxy or w/e weren't affected by the Force and had never even heard of it, I think it was concluded that the force only exists @ least as far as we know in their own Galaxy. So I guess the force aspect breaksdown on whether or not SW gets homefield advantage.

[vp21ct]

Now in the Star Wars books, which I am almost ashamed to admit I read, The attacking aliens from the other Galaxy or w/e weren't affected by the Force and had never even heard of it, I think it was concluded that the force only exists @ least as far as we know in their own Galaxy. So I guess the force aspect breaksdown on whether or not SW gets homefield advantage.

oooh---aaaaahh.

Actually, if you had read them through, you would have learned that the Yuzong Vong are infact simbiotic organisms to a planet sized lifeforme. They sort of lost contact with that life form and thus lost contact with the force.

[Napalmer]

oooh---aaaaahh.

Actually, if you had read them through, you would have learned that the Yuzong Vong are infact simbiotic organisms to a planet sized lifeforme. They sort of lost contact with that life form and thus lost contact with the force.

man, theres like 20 of those books, did enjoy the ones I read however. That's such a lame cop out though, did this happen in the distant past for them then? Because I recall them being somewhat confused by the force, it's been along time since I read those books tho.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

There's more to the Yuuzhan'Vong than just not having midichlorians, though I can't recall the specifics of it off the top of my head. It happend a long time ago for them, many generations before the Clone Wars. From what I recall, there was essentially a split between the two people on the living planet, and the Yuuzhan'Vong left the Galaxy, wandering the spaces between galaxies for many generations before wandering back, not realizing they were returning home (at least, not the majority of them, anyway).


As for the SW resources... In the EU, the SW civilization spans the entire galaxy, but the EU isn't canon - only the movies, new CGI movie/show, upcoming live-action show, and the movie novelizations are official Star Wars (c) canon. In the official canon SW, the Empire is much larger than the Federation in planet count (~1 million worlds as of ANH), but nowhere near a galaxy-spanning civilization (indeed, it covers a small section of a modest-sized galaxy (10-20,000-ly diameter dwarf galaxy would fit such a description, according to the ANH novelization). Further, given the differing planet density - every system in the SW galaxy has at least one planet, and most of them have at least one habitable planet, where as habitable planets in the ST galaxy are much more rare - the Empire could quite easily encompass some million or so worlds and actually cover a smaller territorial volume than the Federation, especially considering that dwarf galaxies often tend to have denser star concentrations than large galaxies like our own. As such, it's quite possible that the Federation could have a greater resource base, in controlled raw materials, than the Empire.

Additionally, it was noted in one of the CGI episodes that the Droid Army outnumbered the Clone Army 100 to 1. Given that the clone army started at 1.2 million, with a reasonable upper limit during the full war of 5 million, that gives the Droid Army a reasonable cap of 500 million troops. Further, in the first two years of the Dominion War, the Cardassians, who were generally winning, lost over SEVEN million troops. In a 2-year war that they were winning, one of the lesser Alpha/Beta Quadrant powers LOST more troops than the Republic Clone Army ever had!

Now, granted, the Empire probably has a significantly larger army than the Republic, but how much larger is questionable, given that they rely on living people who need to be taught and trained, instead of mass-produced droids. As such, it's unlikely that the Empire's forces number in the hundreds of millions, where as the Cardassian's forces must number in the several tens of millions to make their losses seem reasonable for the war (even at 30 million troops, 7 million is a VERY high percentage of losses for a power that is winning the war). And that's just the Cardassians, that doesn't even begin to measure the Federation, which, although not as militaristic as the Union, is much larger (and even though they aren't as militaristic, there is no real stigma against maintaining a large and well-equipped Starfleet contingent). The Federation likely has at least comparable numbers of military personnel to the Cardassians, putting their numbers on the order of several tens of millions, dozens of times more than the Republic ever had, and several times more than the Empire would have even if the Empire managed to field ten times as many troops as the Republic (even if the Empire increased the original production capacity (1.2 million) by ten fold, they would still only have some 24 million clones 20 by ANH, plus the ~1.2 million clones from the original batch, or however many survived the war (plus however many could have finished during the war). So the Empire has maybe 25 million storm troopers, with an upper limit of maybe 50 million. Compared to the forces deployed during the Clone Wars, that's a fairly sizeable army, especially considering the Droid Army's key strength was raw numbers, with very poor quality (though they had started fielding higher-quality units by the start of the war). However, compared to the forces fielded by the major powers involved in the Dominion War, it's only a middling amount, comparable to one of the lesser major powers of the Alpha/Beta Quadrants, and one of the two smallest powers involved in the Dominion War. The 'wall of flesh' advantage the Empire has always been assumed to have is actually non-existent - the Imperial troop count might even be smaller than the Federation's, and is certainly smaller than the Klingons'.

[chaotix987]

Wow, that's a lot of stats.

I've been wondering, could a light saber reflect a phaser set to vaporize?

[Napalmer]

Wow, that's a lot of stats.

I've been wondering, could a light saber reflect a phaser set to vaporize?

Thats an excellent question,. And I have no idea, but it brought to mind another question, could a Jedi's force powers and mental control stop a Betazed mind-rape.

[chaotix987]

Thats an excellent question,. And I have no idea, but it brought to mind another question, could a Jedi's force powers and mental control stop a Betazed mind-rape.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hah, Darth Vader screamed that. Really scary:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Wow, that's a lot of stats.

I've been wondering, could a light saber reflect a phaser set to vaporize?

Not if it's set to wide-beam. } ; = 8 )


Thats an excellent question,. And I have no idea, but it brought to mind another question, could a Jedi's force powers and mental control stop a Betazed mind-rape.

A good question indeed. The EU portrays the Jedi mental abilities as full-on telelpathy (more or less, with exceptions falling to either side), but that portrayal isn't canon. Lucas' portrayal of the Jedi's mental abilities seems to fall more along the lines of being empathic, and the having ability to impress weak minds, as the norm, with the occasional ability to pick out more specific details, in a sort of telempathy. We've never actually seen full-on telepathy in the canon. Undoubtedly, the Jedi would have fairly strong defenses - their mental disciplining alone would do that, even without any empathic or telepathic abilities, though whether they would be able to withstand a focused mental attack from a full-blood and properly trained Betazoid is still undetermined.

[vp21ct]

A good question indeed. The EU portrays the Jedi mental abilities as full-on telelpathy (more or less, with exceptions falling to either side), but that portrayal isn't canon. Lucas' portrayal of the Jedi's mental abilities seems to fall more along the lines of being empathic, and the having ability to impress weak minds, as the norm, with the occasional ability to pick out more specific details, in a sort of telempathy. We've never actually seen full-on telepathy in the canon. Undoubtedly, the Jedi would have fairly strong defenses - their mental disciplining alone would do that, even without any empathic or telepathic abilities, though whether they would be able to withstand a focused mental attack from a full-blood and properly trained Betazoid is still undetermined.

Even more to that.

Vulcan Touch Telepathy is even more potent than the normal stuff a betazoid has, so a vulcan very well could be able to take on most jedi in a telepathic dual.

[Napalmer]

Even more to that.

Vulcan Touch Telepathy is even more potent than the normal stuff a betazoid has, so a vulcan very well could be able to take on most jedi in a telepathic dual.

Yet still more, the Vulcans did indeed develop Psychic weapons during their more savage years. ST does have a plethora of one-off alien races that had advanced psychic and telekinetic powers as well.

Is it conceivable to replicate a Bat'leth that could withstand a lightsaber strike? Make it out of Duranium, the most Durable of elements.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

I doubt it would be possible to construct a bat'leth out of any material besides neutronium that would be able to withstand a lightsaber strike. However, I'm sure a Starfleet engineer (or Klingon engineer, for that matter) would be able to design a skin-tight forcefield generator to incorporate into the weapon. It wouldn't give it the same melting properties as a lightsaber, but it would allow a bat'leth to be used against a lightsaber, and still have all its normal physical cutting properties.

[Magnuson]

Hmmm...I wonder what that battle would go like myself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNxhrPaaCA4

[chaotix987]

Hmmm...I wonder what that battle would go like myself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNxhrPaaCA4

Do you know haw many posts have that link?

I'm SICK OF IT!!

[Napalmer]

Hey Mr. Andorian, don't be so blue



:P :P :P

[starshipcaptain]

i think i see the futere
year 2202
hay i think star wars would win/ no way star trek.

[chaotix987]

Hey Mr. Andorian, don't be so blue



:P :P :P

Sorry.

Everything about me seens to be blue.

[Charry]

I doubt it would be possible to construct a bat'leth out of any material besides neutronium that would be able to withstand a lightsaber strike. However, I'm sure a Starfleet engineer (or Klingon engineer, for that matter) would be able to design a skin-tight forcefield generator to incorporate into the weapon. It wouldn't give it the same melting properties as a lightsaber, but it would allow a bat'leth to be used against a lightsaber, and still have all its normal physical cutting properties.

Well if you go by the KOTOR video games you could use a cortosis weave to with stand a lightsaber. Or if you want something from the movies the electrostaffs that the droids use in Episode 3 are made of phrik which is resistant to lightsabers.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Well if you go by the KOTOR video games you could use a cortosis weave to with stand a lightsaber. Or if you want something from the movies the electrostaffs that the droids use in Episode 3 are made of phrik which is resistant to lightsabers.

Cortosis is from the EU, so isn't canon, and the electro staff thingies the guard droids used in the movies used some sort of energy blade. Interestingly enough, though, the EU also portrays Vibro blades, which are essentially normal metal blades vibrating at an extremely high frequency, as being capable of blocking lightsabers, which doesn't make any sense at all. Fortunately, it's the EU and we don't have to worry about it.

[Charry]

Are we using Wookieepedia for cannon referance or not?

[Napalmer]

Cortosis is from the EU, so isn't canon, and the electro staff thingies the guard droids used in the movies used some sort of energy blade. Interestingly enough, though, the EU also portrays Vibro blades, which are essentially normal metal blades vibrating at an extremely high frequency, as being capable of blocking lightsabers, which doesn't make any sense at all. Fortunately, it's the EU and we don't have to worry about it.

Theres not a whole lot about lightsabers that actually makes sense. I mean the power consumption required to make a coherent beam of light bend back onto itself is only seen in blackholes. You'd be better off using that kind of energy in some other capacity.


EDIT* I had to edit this. I'm nit picking again... there's lots in Sci-Fi that makes little sense

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Are we using Wookieepedia for cannon referance or not?

*For the short answer, skip the following paragraph.

If it references the films (live action and CGI), or the episodes (CGI, and live action when it starts), or the scripts, or the film novelizations, it's a part of the official George Lucas Star Wars canon. Anything beyond that is part of the Expanded Universe, which has its own internal canon, but is separate from the official canon. Basically, there's the Lucas canon (often called the 'film-only' canon, though that's not as accurate now with the shows), and the EU canon. The Lucas canon is the official canon of the franchise, the Star Wars brand. The Expanded Universe canon only applies to EU materials, such as the novels, games, etc. In that regard, Trek and Wars are much the same - if it's on-screen, it's official canon, and if it's in the books/games/etc., it falls under the canon guidelines of the franchise's 'expanded universe.'


*Short Answer: If the Wookieepedia reference is referencing something that comes from the movies, the episodes, their scripts, or the novelizations of the movies, it's good, otherwise its non-canon. It should also be treated like any other fan-contributed wikis, which are prone to shifting influences from numerous popular and unpopular biases.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Theres not a whole lot about lightsabers that actually makes sense. I mean the power consumption required to make a coherent beam of light bend back onto itself is only seen in blackholes. You'd be better off using that kind of energy in some other capacity.


EDIT* I had to edit this. I'm nit picking again... there's lots in Sci-Fi that makes little sense

Actually, aside from the name, there's nothing about a lightsaber that actually requires it to be composed of light - some form of high-energy charged plasma loop is much more likely, especially since modern scientists have already created plasma loops that could conceivably be shaped into glowing blades.

[USS_Parallax]

I always made the assumption that the crystals used to power a lightsaber were minerals somehow connected with the force giving them huge amounts of power. Of course this assumption is probably completely wrong. :p

I always wondered why they don't just take a lot of these lightsaber pieces and make whole shields and huge weapons out of 'em. Lightsaber shield anyone? One that completely surrounds your ship? You could run into this and kill them :P.

[Napalmer]

I always made the assumption that the crystals used to power a lightsaber were minerals somehow connected with the force giving them huge amounts of power. Of course this assumption is probably completely wrong. :p

I always wondered why they don't just take a lot of these lightsaber pieces and make whole shields and huge weapons out of 'em. Lightsaber shield anyone? One that completely surrounds your ship? You could run into this and kill them :P.

The force, thats your answer for everything

:p

[Jenkins1701]

LOL!

Just look at how much of a problem 1 Borg Cube is to the Federation. Can you imagine the Death Star, the Executor (SISD), a fleet of ISD's and 1000's of Tie's of all classes?

There will be no Pictard saying "This is Capt Picard of the Enterprise, I am taking command of the Fleet. Target all of your weapons at the following coordinates, fire at my command!" :p

No sir... Here is where Star Wars would win hands down HOWEVER to most realistic future has to be that of Star Trek.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

The force, thats your answer for everything

:p

There are so many dirty joke possibilities in that statement... Fortunately, I'm too tired to think of any atm. } ; = 8 P


Anyway... Quick tally:

For Trek:
Sublight speed/accel/agility (insane advantage - high fractions of c top speed, several thousand km/s accel, high agility)
Weapons range (tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of kilometers effective range sublight, tens of millions of kilometers effective range guided missiles fired at warp)
Transporters
Size of armed forces
Industrial capacity
Sensors
FTL attack runs
Higher sprinting speed at FTL
Superior tactics and strategies

For Wars:
Huge ships
Invulnerable in FTL flight
Higher cruising speed at FTL
Larger population and planet count
Possibly larger resource base


That just leaves weapons and shield output values, and power generation. We have some pretty solid data on Trek output figures, between their M/AM and fusion reactors, and demonstrated yields of the Matter/Anti-Matter warhead photon torpedoes, weapons outputs in the hundreds to thousands of petajoules/high megaton to low gigaton range and total reactor outputs in the hundreds of thousands to low millions of petawatts are very likely. Canonically speaking, there is little hard data available on Wars weapons and shields and reactor outputs, but indications are that Wars reactor technology is fusion-based only, with Wars weapons outputs in the low megaton range, at best.

[Napalmer]

...Anyway... Quick tally:

For Trek:
Sublight speed/accel/agility (insane advantage - high fractions of c top speed, several thousand km/s accel, high agility)
Weapons range (tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of kilometers effective range sublight, tens of millions of kilometers effective range guided missiles fired at warp)
Transporters
Size of armed forces
Industrial capacity
Sensors
FTL attack runs
Higher sprinting speed at FTL
Superior tactics and strategies

For Wars:
Huge ships
Invulnerable in FTL flight
Higher cruising speed at FTL
Larger population and planet count
Possibly larger resource base


That just leaves weapons and shield output values, and power generation. We have some pretty solid data on Trek output figures, between their M/AM and fusion reactors, and demonstrated yields of the Matter/Anti-Matter warhead photon torpedoes, weapons outputs in the hundreds to thousands of petajoules/high megaton to low gigaton range and total reactor outputs in the hundreds of thousands to low millions of petawatts are very likely. Canonically speaking, there is little hard data available on Wars weapons and shields and reactor outputs, but indications are that Wars reactor technology is fusion-based only, with Wars weapons outputs in the low megaton range, at best.


So... it looks like the scales are currently in Trek's favor, not that this forum would be biased in any way...

[Ilithi_Dragon]

LOL!

Just look at how much of a problem 1 Borg Cube is to the Federation. Can you imagine the Death Star, a fleet of ISD's and 1000's of Tie's of all classes?

There will be no Pictard saying "This is Capt Picard of the Enterprise, I am taking command of the Fleet. Target all of your weapons at the following coordinates, fire at my command!" :p

And that one Borg Cube is exponentially more advanced than anything the SW galaxy can muster. The Death Star would be the Federation's only real threat, and we saw how easily it was taken out by a few fighters and a pair of guided missiles.

The ISDs, though larger, would probably be outmatched by a Miranda class starship, and would never be able to bring any Trek ship into weapons range (and would never be able to hit them even then). The TIEs would be obliterated, either by rapid bursts of fire from the phaser arrays (see TNG "Conundrum" for the effectiveness of Starfleet phasers against small fighter craft), or a splash burst from a 1000 megaton photon torpedo. And given that we've never seen Wars weapons put out yields even close to the megaton range, where as Trek weaponry has repeatedly demonstrated yields in the high megaton to low gigaton range, it's unlikely that even the Death Star would be able to soak up a lot of fire before taking crippling damage (even if the damage isn't critical, it wouldn't be that hard to cripple the Death Star's main weapon with sufficient firepower).

[Ilithi_Dragon]

So... it looks like the scales are currently in Trek's favor, not that this forum would be biased in any way...

There's bias, and then there's fact. Just because an analysis gives one side with an overwhelming superiority doesn't mean the analysis is biased. Now, granted, I do see your point - these things do tend to be influenced by a lot of bias, but there are facts that can only be refuted by those so determined for their bias to be right that they refuse to accept fact, and those facts are that Trek has repeatedly demonstrated superior weapons ranges, superior sublight acceleration, speed and agility, superior sensors, superior weapons yields (and thereby shield outputs and hull endurances), superior tactics, superior strategies, superior industry, and the list goes on.

[graeme1701]

You really have no idea in the scale of things do you Ilithi?

Click this link. It shows all ships at a real scale value:

http://www.st-minutiae.com/misc/comparison/comparison_large.png

Just admit it..... Star Trek would fail against Star Wars if it came to war!

Also have you heard of Sith & Jedi 'Battle Meditation'? If not you should look it up.

And a Borg Cube...... Better then anything is the Star Wars universe? 1 Jedi or Sith would chop through an entire Borg Cube's crew! Have you seen how bulky and slow a Borg Drone is? Have you seen how fast a skilled Jedi or Sith is?

Also the Borg Cube hit with the 'Iron Canon' would not only kill the Ship but the Crew too! ;)

[Napalmer]

...
Also have you heard of Sith & Jedi 'Battle Meditation'? If not you should look it up.

And a Borg Cube...... Better then anything is the Star Wars universe? 1 Jedi or Sith would chop through an entire Borg Cube's crew! Have you seen how bulky and slow a Borg Drone is? Have you seen how fast a skilled Jedi or Sith is?

Also the Borg Cube hit with the 'Iron Canon' would not only kill the Ship but the Crew too! ;)

First off, check this thread as Battle Meditation is from KOTOR it is not part of this thread since its EU.

Also, Im going to have to agree with Illithi on the Borg Cube, that thing is death onna bun. The only reason they didn't destroy the Alpha Quadrant initially is because of a backdoor in the programming (so lame :P). I am curious don't you think that after a few expendable Borg were cut down that their shields would remodulate to stop Sabers.

On that note however, I would say that SW does have the superior hacking abilities, as your average Astromech droid has the ability to interface and reprogram most consoles it comes into contact with. I think that would be a key advantage for SW especially if a sneak attack was involved.

[graeme1701]

Battle Meditation is not from KOTOR. Although used in that it goes back along way in the Star Wars Universe.

And Borgs PSG's would not stop a Lighsaber at all. Nor would they stop Force Lightning, Grip, Push, Pull, Choke etc etc.

[Napalmer]

Battle Meditation is not from KOTOR. Although used in that it goes back along way in the Star Wars Universe.

And Borgs PSG's would not stop a Lighsaber at all. Nor would they stop Force Lightning, Grip, Push, Pull, Choke etc etc.

Whats it from? Could've sworn it was KOTOR.

Anyways, I counter that high levels of logic and clairvoyance are virtually indistinguishable, so the Vulcans would feasibly cancel out Battle Meditation.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

You really have no idea in the scale of things do you Ilithi?

Click this link. It shows all ships at a real scale value:

http://www.st-minutiae.com/misc/comparison/comparison_large.png

Just admit it..... Star Trek would fail against Star Wars if it came to war!

Judge me by my size, do you? He he he he he!

You'd think, for all the popularity of that line, Yoda's wisdom would've sunk in a bit more, especially with Wars fans... Bigger doesn't always mean better. Yeah, your club might be a lot bigger, and a lot heavier, and it can do a lot of damage, but my 9mm Beretta will cut you down several times over long before you get close enough to use it. } ; = 8 )


Also have you heard of Sith & Jedi 'Battle Meditation'? If not you should look it up.

As Napalmer pointed out, that's from the Expanded Universe - KOTOR and the novels, not the official Lucas canon, which is what this debate is about. This is just about the canon of the two universes, not their respective expanded universes.

And a Borg Cube...... Better then anything is the Star Wars universe? 1 Jedi or Sith would chop through an entire Borg Cube's crew! Have you seen how bulky and slow a Borg Drone is? Have you seen how fast a skilled Jedi or Sith is?

First, the Jedi and Sith have NOT demonstrated that kind of power in the canon. Yes, an individual drone is probably no match for a Jedi, at least not at first, but again as Napalmer pointed out, the Borg adapt, and it probably wouldn't be long before that lightsaber started bouncing off their shields, and the Borg have several thousand to a few HUNDRED thousand drones on just a single Cube. Further, while the Borg have shown classic zombie-like movement speed typically, they have demonstrated great speed when necessary, and they have incredible strength. Eventually, the Jedi or Sith would be overcome by their numbers, and there really aren't all that many Jedi, even if you start counting before the Clone Wars, and even fewer Sith (weren't there only ever two at a time?).


Also the Borg Cube hit with the 'Iron Canon' would not only kill the Ship but the Crew too! ;)

That's assuming a simple ElectroMagnetic Pulse (EMP) would affect Borg systems. Borg computer systems (and Trek systems in general) are very different from Wars computer systems. Trek uses optical and quantum computing technology, where as Wars uses the same old silicon circuitry we're quite familiar with today. Wars comp tech is vulnerable to EMP, which is what the ion cannon appears to be, where as Trek tech isn't, because it doesn't have all the little metal wires and filaments to overload that semi-conductor-based circuitry has, and Trek power systems are based on high-energy plasma, not conductive metal wiring like Wars. The ion canon would probably have reduced effectiveness against Trek shields, and no effectiveness against bare hull.

[graeme1701]

If you had read any books from the Old Republic Series and Original you would see that alot of Battles fought were influenced by Battle Meditation.

EG:

During the time of the Clone Wars Jedi Master Oppio Rancisis was the Master Battle Meditation, Master Yareal Poof was also gifted in this art this is one of the reason that they were early targets and skillfully taking out. Palpatine was also gifted in the art of affecting Battles. A little known fact is that he had a force user during the battle of Endor named Grand Admiral Nial Declann that was gifted with this ability but when vader threw the emperor down the shaft Declann lost concentration due to his connection to the Emperor Palpatine and thus the rest is history.

So although used in KOTOR, Battle Meditation was around alot more and by more people then Bastila Shan.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Whats it from? Could've sworn it was KOTOR.

Anyways, I counter that high levels of logic and clairvoyance are virtually indistinguishable, so the Vulcans would feasibly cancel out Battle Meditation.

It's showed up in several novels, most notably the newer ones dealing with the Yuuz'han Vong. Still not canon, though.

Further, there is no evidence that a drone's shield generator could not adapt to block lightsabers or force lightning. I doubt they would block Force telekinesis, but the canon shows that used only in limited amounts, with larger displays of power limited only to the very powerful Jedi and Sith, and coming at a taxing cost.


Also, Napalmer, the Astromech droids can hack Wars systems quite easily, but they appear to be quite commonly used maintenance droids, with data access points configured for their ease of use, which would give them a definite edge in hacking a system. With a completely alien system operating on completely different technology, and no compatible data connections, I doubt they would be of much use. Brings some amusing possible scenes to mind, though, with Han, Luke, etc. pinned down in a corridor and Han telling R2 to get a turbolift working, and the poor guy not being able to find a data connection, though...

[Ilithi_Dragon]

If you had read any books from the Old Republic Series and Original

And you missed the whole sections of our posts about the books NOT BEING CANON. Yes, battle meditation, uber Force guru, hypermatter, the Sun Crusher, the Yuuz'han Vong, etc. are all part of the Expanded Universe, but they are NOT part of George Lucas' official Star Wars canon. Just as the weaponized form of the Genesis Device is part of the Star Trek 'expanded universe', but is NOT part of the official Star Trek canon.

[Spock1701]

We should all agree to disagree.

I prefer Star Wars to Star Trek also, but who cares. Its a game and these are Forums. ;)

[Ilithi_Dragon]

We should all agree to disagree.

I prefer Star Wars to Star Trek also, but who cares. Its a game and these are Forums. ;)

But we're not talking about what we LIKE, that's each to his own (and I think we all like both). We're talking about who would win a WAR, the Galactic Empire, or the United Federation of Planets, and we're doing it because we enjoy the debate. } : = 8 )

[Napalmer]

I'd like to point out that its doubtful any Jedi or members of the Rebel Alliance would help the Imperials @ all. just as it is unlikely that the Borg could be considered an ally against the Imperials, unless of course, they sought to assimilate them before hitting the Federation again. So, I'd say in a war of Empire v Federation the outcome would def depend on the time frame. Star Trek Enterprise? Of course, epic fail, no doubt. But TNG time frame and beyond I think it's clear who would win. But I won't say :P

[Napalmer]

We should all agree to disagree.

I prefer Star Wars to Star Trek also, but who cares. Its a game and these are Forums. ;)

This is, in fact, the Star Wars vs Star Trek forum thread...

[chaotix987]

Battle Meditation is not from KOTOR. Although used in that it goes back along way in the Star Wars Universe.

And Borgs PSG's would not stop a Lighsaber at all. Nor would they stop Force Lightning, Grip, Push, Pull, Choke etc etc.

That information is not accurate at all.

As mentioned by another post, the borg would adapt to ALL of those powers, as they are all forms of energy.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Just a few examinations of Trek weapons firepower.

TNG "Skin of Evil": after saving Counselor Troi and leaving the planet, Picard orders a torpedo fired at the crashed shuttle, to destroy it in order to prevent the thing on the planet from having any chance of leaving. We see the fireball from orbit, a massive detonation in the low gigaton range at least.

TNG "Cost of Living": Two photon torpedoes destroy a massive asteroid, displaying a yield in the high megaton range at least with conservative size and density estimates of the asteroid (though given that the core of the asteroid that survived the initial assault threatened planetary devastation if it impacted, even though it was only roughly the size of the Enterprise's engineering hull, suggests a density well above average).

TNG: "Q, Who?": The Enterprise-D fires her main phaser arrays at the Borg Cube, blowing massive craters into the Cube's hull ranging from 250 to 500 meters in diameter. Even if that were just heating the volume of the smallest crater's volume in water to its boiling point in one atmosphere from just above 3 degrees K (-270 C, typical temperature in deep space), that would still be equivalent to an explosive yield in the low megaton range. Given that Borg ships are constructed out of tritanium and duranium alloys, it's very, very likely that the discharge was orders of magnitude greater.

VOY "Rise": A single photon torpedo is sufficient to vaporize an asteroid at least the size of Voyager herself, leaving debris no more than a centimeter in diameter (the asteroid wasn't vaporized, it fragmented, but that was because its true composition was masked from Voyager's sensors). This would require a yield in the high megaton range at least (the most conservative estimate I've seen is 100 megatons, which was deliberately calculated as an extreme low-end estimate).

DS9: "The Die is Cast": When the Cardassian/Romulan fleet opens fire on the planet, we see massive atmospheric disturbances, and huge fireballs in the high megaton to low gigaton range, and one truly MASSIVE fireball that, given a planet approximately the size of Earth, would be roughly half the size of Europe, well into the mid- to high-gigaton range, if not higher (though it was most likely a combination of multiple strikes, not the discharge of a single weapon). Further, the few seconds of fire from the opening salvo of only 20 warships was sufficient to destroy a full third of the planet's crust.


Excluding the Death Star's superlaser (which may well be a chain-reaction weapon, similar in some respects to the phaser), no observed Wars weapons fire has come anywhere close to that. The closest we've seen any weapons discharge come to that range was Jango Fett's explosive missile he fired at Obi Wan in AotC, which detonated with a kiloton-range yield. There were only two other comparable events that did not include the Death Star. The first was in AotC, when a Trade Federation starship is trying to take off but is shot down, with the force of impact creating a dust cloud and blast wave comparable to a kiloton-range explosion. The second was in TESB, when one of the heavy Imperial Walkers took out the Rebel power generator, resulting in another kiloton-range explosion.

[Roberto]

Bump - loooool

[Ilithi_Dragon]

An update on the asteroid popping sequences. Apparently, per MIT's Project Icarus (http://www.thespacereview.com/article/175/1), it would take a 1,000 megaton (1 gigaton) bomb to pulverize the 1.4 km Near Earth Asteroid Icarus, and that a 100 megaton bomb couldn't come close to doing it on its own (and even six consecutive 100 megaton bombs might not even be enough).

Though the asteroid Voyager popped in "Rise" is probably a lot smaller than Icarus, the asteroid was supposed to have been VAPORIZED, not pulverized, with fragments no larger than one centimeter in diameter. To get that kind of result from an explosion in space, with an asteroid at least the size of Voyager (and potentially the size of Icarus), an explosion of at least 1000 megatons seems very likely, if not more.

I still don't have any raw data on how to properly calculate the size of the explosion required to pulverize or vaporize an asteroid, though... If anyone knows where I could find that data, I would really appreciate it.

[Lizzio]

If all the star-wars just moved to the star wars forum and star trek stay here
then these lame dissucision wont exist

[Ilithi_Dragon]

If all the star-wars just moved to the star wars forum and star trek stay here
then these lame dissucision wont exist

Ah, I'm Trek fan, and very much 'pro-Trek' in the Vs debates. And I started this thread. } ; = 8 )

[OliverBRogers]

Well, to truely calculate who'd win, you'd have to get the scematics of each weapon type's joule output, the hulls tolerance of such forces and shield tolerance. and so forth.

And for your answer on photon torpedos: Wikipedia:
he energy output of a photon torpedo, according to the Technical Manuals is a maximum theoretical yield of 25 Isotons and a maximum rated yield of 18.5 Isotons. According to the TNG Technical Manual, photon torpedoes use 1.5kg of matter and 1.5kg of antimatter. The resulting energy output would be 2.70x1017Joules of energy (by the well-known formula E=mc2). This amount of energy release would be equivalent to a 64.4 megaton nuclear explosion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon_torpedo#Photon_torpedoes

[Ilithi_Dragon]

You actually don't need precise values for every weapon, etc. Getting rough values for the general outputs and tolerances is sufficient, especially with the level of difference between Trek outputs and tolerances and Wars outputs and tolerances.

As for the photon torpedoes... The TM lists 64 megaton torpedoes, but that doesn't match the demonstrated yield, which is in the high megaton to low gigaton range, and the demonstrated on-screen yield trumps the yield listed in the TM.

[Snapshot_9]

Excluding the Death Star's superlaser (which may well be a chain-reaction weapon, similar in some respects to the phaser), no observed Wars weapons fire has come anywhere close to that. The closest we've seen any weapons discharge come to that range was Jango Fett's explosive missile he fired at Obi Wan in AotC, which detonated with a kiloton-range yield. There were only two other comparable events that did not include the Death Star. The first was in AotC, when a Trade Federation starship is trying to take off but is shot down, with the force of impact creating a dust cloud and blast wave comparable to a kiloton-range explosion. The second was in TESB, when one of the heavy Imperial Walkers took out the Rebel power generator, resulting in another kiloton-range explosion.

As mush as i try to side line myself in these debates, as in my mind you cant compaire two completely different sci-fi genres.
But on a non technological point, SW ships are HUGE and star trek ships not so much (still very big). And as we have seen also very manoverable. As llithi Dragon has talked of Kiloton yeilds. It all acounts for naught when you cant hit a target. Especialy when trek ships fire in ranges of 10-50, 000 Kms and SW ships fire visualy.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Another point to consider is that a LOT of people assume SW ships will be stronger/more powerful/more durable than Trek ships, purely because of their size. This isn't necessarily true, however, because as Yoda said, "size matters not." Well, not so much, at any rate. Yeah, SW ships are a LOT bigger than Trek ships, but that doesn't mean squat if Trek ships are 100-1000 times more advanced and powerful. You can build a bigger ship, that has more hull to destroy, but if the materials of that hull, and its spaceframe and armor are far, far less durable than the materials of the hull, spaceframe and armor of a smaller ship, that smaller ship is still going to be more durable.

[Snapshot_9]

Exactly. A good point llithi Dragon.
And people come up with all this statistics about the ships of SW and Trek. I Mean look at how they fight to. SW ships swarp in as fighters at sub-light speeds and attack. Trek ships are the opposite, a few ships stand off each other and fire at a very long range (100's if not 1000's of Km) and as llithi put it dont stay still.

[vanlore]

Bump, I'm back and wow this debate went on for a long time since i was out.

Hey Dragon, sorry I never got back to you about your question about Trek and time travel. Oo, I will have to double back and find it again. :D

[Eisenwolff]

Well, to truely calculate who'd win, you'd have to get the scematics of each weapon type's joule output, the hulls tolerance of such forces and shield tolerance. and so forth.

And for your answer on photon torpedos:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon_torpedo#Photon_torpedoes
The STNGTM is not canon. But the Second paragraph about this matter on memory alpha rates it a bit higher anyway

The second type, at maximum yield, achieves the level of destructive force of an antimatter pod rupture. Antimatter is stored as liquid or slush on starships. (pg. 69) Density of mere liquid antideuterium is around 160 kilograms per cubic meter. According to this comparison the high annihilation rate energy release would be comparable to about 690 gigatons. For the sake of plausibility the affected blast area at these intensities might be extremely small. Visual effects on-screen would seem to confirm this.
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Photon_torpedo#Background

Another thing might be the problem to bring the explosive force into place i mean to get 15kt TNT blown up and achieve a nice destruction is hard to do that with a 15kt nuke is much easier

[LordEnn]

As Napalmer pointed out, that's from the Expanded Universe - KOTOR and the novels, not the official Lucas canon, which is what this debate is about. This is just about the canon of the two universes, not their respective expanded universes.

Read the following.

Star Wars is unusual in that George Lucas/Lucasfilm have outlined four levels of canon, which includes the Star Wars Expanded Universe, effectively canonizing the continuity established by Star Wars novels.

It's canonical. If there was, for example, a conflict between an event in a book and an event in a movie, the latter would be more important. It's "dual-canon". That's why the levels exist. Apart from that, it's canonical.


The EU is great material, but not part of the official film canon - it has its own canon and internal continuity, but it is a separate, parallel story.

That's irrelevant. It's separate, but it's still canon. Your own links say so.

Star Wars and Star Trek are, in my opinion, far too different to compare. If you had to do so, Star Trek would be likelier to emerge victorious.

However, Star Trek is extraordinarily overdone. For their size, and their seemingly incredible technology, ships in Star Trek seem to be far too powerful, maneuverable, and capable. Because of a limited budget, effects were often mediocre, and visuals in every Star Trek series were, to a certain extent, exaggerated. This allowed the developers to create idiotically high specifications for their ships and weapons. Perhaps it's the reason I love it. :p
:p

[adamflux]

if they fight in the sw galaxy, the dark force users win. if they fight outside of that galaxy and therefor outside the influence of the jedi force, then the technological inferiority of the sw galaxy denizens leaves them high and dry. darth nihilus however could wipe out the borg collective with a glance given the force to work with, however, i'm allowing that any life force that enters the galaxy get's a force connection, and the y.vong didn't, so the star wars guys are likely just screwed.
tech for tech trek is the winner, but "there are techniques within the force against which there is no defense."
that's my vote

[amdg3x7]

"there are techniques within the force against which there is no defense."

Quote from KotOR2

[Snapshot_9]

Quote from KotOR2

yeah games are not canon, alot of people make statistics on things like, my fleet of Akiras took out a 2 borg cubes in Armarda 2.

Or the worst one yet, "an Acclimator i added to bridge commander was powerful enough to take out a fleet of galaxy and nebula class ships"... yeah and the guy who made it wasnt bias at all....git:p:p

[LordEnn]

if they fight in the sw galaxy, the dark force users win. if they fight outside of that galaxy and therefor outside the influence of the jedi force, then the technological inferiority of the sw galaxy denizens leaves them high and dry. darth nihilus however could wipe out the borg collective with a glance given the force to work with, however, i'm allowing that any life force that enters the galaxy get's a force connection, and the y.vong didn't, so the star wars guys are likely just screwed.
tech for tech trek is the winner, but "there are techniques within the force against which there is no defense."
that's my vote

As far as I know, all life is touched by the Force. If the USS Enterprise-E and the Death Star II appeared in the same galaxy, the Force would be there. All life can be affected by it. In some other way, the Force can also manipulate inorganic matter. Lucas never expected radical comparisons. :p

yeah games are not canon

Those games are, in fact, canonical. It's separated from the movies, but it's confirmed, official canon.

[trekkie415]

the federation would win. here is why. i am going with the federation and their normal allies. so no borg, 8472, for star wars no death star, no jedi/sith, just what would happen if they fought the regular people on tv all the time. and they cannot share technology. lets just say whatever the other universe has is incompatible and they cannot steal each other's ships, weapons etc.

now for the point of this argument, lets say the federation allied themselves with the klingons, romulans and maybe a few other alpha quad species.

cons: the federation has no army to speak of. they favor small away missions and use basic rifles and handguns to kill their enemy. but the armor of the stormtroopers don't really protect them anyway. lets face it, the so called armor is more for scaring the enemy than it is in protecting the soldier.
what the federation lack in an army they make it for it in covert operations. uhh don't forget that an old guy went around the death star and nobody had a freaking clue. if there were to train an elite force (pun intended) they could do real damage behind the lines. it is the constant choas as well as the paranoia that can damage morale and always looking over the shoulder that may help to win the war. transport someplace where nobody knows, put on a white suit, nobody would know a thing.

in a full conventional fight, the federation would use due to lack of military technology, unless they call in the klingons for some mortar fire. the federation would never play that game and hopefully would pick a battlefield where the superior numbers of the stormtroopers would be useless. which brings up another point. however, if they actually followed in the days of kirk and early picard, a phaser can destroy an entire building in a single shot. remember in one episode of TNG a single weapon killed 11 people with a wide shot. with clone troopers attack on-mass, lining phasers up could kill a lot of people very quickly. whether it would be possible with the DS9/ VOY weapons is something else.

the federation nor their alpha allies have the numbers to put up a fight against the empire for a very long time. the empire are just making clones, and can replace any lost trooper easily, while star trek does not.

now onto robots. star trek has no robots. they only real robot was data, and the robots from the voy episode weren't as good as anything else. the empire, built tons of robots, from small astro driods to an assassin droid. if the federation were to make robots that were like data, then data would be far superior to anything else. however, for some reason the star trek universe seems to fear robots so that scenario is unlikely. but, i believe their biggest advantage is holographic technology.

the empire has nothing like the holograms in the federation. one big factor is making CHP Combat Holographic Program. now let's assume that the doctor's mobile emitter was unlocked and they were able to make these in the billions. it would be a lot easier to teleport or drop a few thousand of these on a planet and activate them. only way to kill them would be to shoot the emitter or use an EMP but then in the star wars universe they did the same thing with battle droids. and with the ability to change how the holograms look, they can easily be sent for covert operations and it would be hell.

replicators: now star wars does not have this at all. it gives the federation a big advantage. think about just setting up a few replicators, and instead of launching hundreds of ships, to resupply i replicate food, medical supplies, water, clothing, maybe some spare parts. i can resupply the front line a little faster. i may also be able to replicate parts of a base and i could make my base in 2 days. so i believe replication is a big advantage for them.

star trek ships have the transport technology which is a big advantage if they would ever use the darn thing. (why they don't just beam the enemy army off a planet into space is beyond me). can't send a shuttle? beam them down. faster and safer than piloting a big box to the front.

speed: the empire is a lot faster, and has an incredible range. they can go from one side of the galaxy and back in about a week (don't really know, just guessing). they can deploy the hit and run tactic. since the federation would never have a chance of catching them right now, they can just retreat to a system that would take the federation a month to get to but only takes 5 hours for the empire. also when they do hit, they can hit hard and chose where to hit. the federation is helpless without the speed.
to be fair, if they employed transwarp technology then things may be a bit balanced.
but, warp has its advantage as well. with the empire needed hyperspace lanes, it may take a while for them to map out the federation's area and that will take time. while with warp, i can just say go straight for 10 seconds and that's it. i don't have to plot a course, to get out of trouble, just do a 180 and run.

firepower: a star destroyer has more firepower than a squadron of federation ships. their blaster fire are just massive killing machine and could take down the shields of a ship with one shot. but do remember, they are blasters and they are inaccurate. and most obviously, star trek has a constant supply of torpedoes. the empire barely has them at all. they have really only used them once and that was from the x-wing in the 4th episode.
with the federation having highly accurate phaser fire and a devastating damage of photon and quantum torpedoes, i can fight you one on one and launch a few hundred torpedoes at your bridge and make you crash.

maneuver: star destroyers can barely move, after all, they are nothing but just big battleships with many big guns. they are the dreadnoughts of WW1. a huge, powerful and deadly ship but they can barely maneuver. they focus on slugging it out in front of each other or side by side (ep. 3) and whoever has the most guns and more accurate fire wins. for the federation, it would be easier to instead of taking the damage, they could just move out of the way. i could just keep pulling the picard maneuver for a while, which would allow me to move from spot to spot in a blink of an eye. so in maneuver ability, star trek has it hands down. don't forget about the klingons with their bird of prey. they can move incredible fast. and finally there is one last thing their ships have.

cloak: star trek has cloaking ability. something that the empire even touched. although they contradict themselves in ep 5 when the captain said "no ship that small has a cloaking device" and in the clone wars mini series, they had robots that could cloak. the klingons as well as the romulans, have a standard cloaking device on all of their ships. sure, it may take me a month to reach your system with the my ship, but i can stay hidden for a long period of time feeding information to my allies. and when the time is right, i can again deploy a hit and run or maybe even destroy it. also if we find out where the hyperspace lanes are, we can put cloaked mines around our planets to protect them from an invasion. they can send the destroyers but they risk running into all my regenerative mines.

so sum things up.
star trek: transport technology, better covert operations, replicators, cloak, maneuverability, holographic technology more accurate weapons and many allies.
star wars: more men, more powerful ships, conventional warfare experience, speed, droid technology, very powerful weapons.

so the federation vs the empire who would win? final verdict, the federation.
Why, simple it is the federation VS the empire. have people forgotten about the rebel alliance??
the rebel alliance would never ally themselves with the empire considering the federation is all about peace and the empire is more of crushing anybody that does not follow their law.

combat operations: the rebellion has experience in conventional warfare (more of less) and they can be the front line of the assault. the federation will use their people to go behind the lines and cause confusion on the battlefield.

supply: instead of sending a ton of ships to resupply, i can just replicate them for the rebellion. now i won't say they can replicate anything from the star wars universe like weapon parts, ship parts etc. but think about giving them food, warm clothing, medical supplies. the federation would not have to worry as much about getting supplies in than the rebellion before.

ships: so a federation ship cannot reach the other side of the galaxy. no problem, why not have the rebellion get some carrier ships to transport them there? sure it would somewhat suck since basically they would transport 1 or two at a time but it is still an advantage.
one other thing, the empire uses tabana gas as their main source of fuel. destroy the gas supply, they have no fleet. the federation uses antimatter and i have never seen them actually refuel. they had to be decontaminated but i've never seen them refuel. so that's a plus for not needing a fuel to run a ship.

the federation would win against a war with the empire. they have so many allies that it would be impossible for the empire to fight on every single front. the federation needs a society where they have experience in combat. when they federation were fighting the klingons they were losing badly near the end. fighting against the cardassians devastated both sides. even after being in so many wars, the federation would still not create a standard army. without their allies, such as the klingons, and romulans and most importantly the rebel alliance they would not have a chance with the empire. but it is the alliance that forge, that will win the day in the end.

[chaotix987]

Those games are, in fact, canonical. It's separated from the movies, but it's confirmed, official canon.

Are all SW games considered canon?

I hope Force Unleashed isn't. How many slices of a light sword does it take to kill a storm trooper in that game? 3? 4? 5?

Are the Jedi and Sith gods? From the posts above it looks like they are with their "force powers", and yet they were taken down by a small rebel force (Sith) and and a few clones(Jedi).

EU is canon? If that's true, the Sith Lord in episode 6 could have killed the entire rebel force with one thought, so why didn't he do it?

I'm seeing some contradictions in this argument...

[Snapshot_9]

Trekkie415
There are a few things you left out.

1. trek ships have a range of 0-200,000 Km where as SW ships ahve a range of around 5000Km

2. As for speed, yes the SW ships would be faster, but only just. A ST ship can traverse the Alpha quadrant in around a week or two. SW ships can travers there galaxy in that time. But what you dont take into account is that the canon size of the SW galaxy is around 20,000 lightyears. The ST galaxy (the milkyway) is around 100, 000 lightyears. Yes the SW ships are faster, but not that much faster, and not nearly as fast as transwarp.

3. SW ships are not as powerful as you might say, yes shot for shot they output higher dischages (Gj) but a ST ship can sustain a shot for exented periods of time, doing incramental damage accuratly outside of SW ranges. And it would take mabye 2-3 shots to bring down a Galaxy classes shields, however any ST ship caught in the DS's superlaser is DOOMED.

4. Photons have around a 64.4 to a 100 Megatonnes of payload. Like a small Nuclear missile, and some.

5. Quantums are roughly 3 times the power of a photon

6. Photons have an effectivea and accurate range of 770,000 Km.



AND NO, GAMES ARE NEVER CONSIDERED CANON!!!

[Ilithi_Dragon]

EU is canon? If that's true, the Sith Lord in episode 6 could have killed the entire rebel force with one thought, so why didn't he do it?

I'm seeing some contradictions in this argument...

And some counter-evidence to it:


Yet novelists have written "Star Wars" sequels using the same characters and extending their stories.

Oh, sure. They're done outside of my little universe. ”Star Wars” has had a lot of different lives that have been worked on by a lot of other people. It works without me."

- George Lucas, Flannelled One, Nov. 2001 - "Matters of Life and Darth" interview in the Nov. 24-30 2001 TV Guide, pp. 24-25


"He also reiterated that there would be no third trilogy, despite what he said years ago about the whole story being a trilogy of trilogies. He said it was a joke, and The Rolling Stone printed the idea as fact. After Episode III, there will be only printed Star Wars stories from now on.

“There are two worlds here,” explained Lucas. “There’s my world, which is the movies, and there’s this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe – the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don’t intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, they do intrude in between the movies. I don’t get too involved in the parallel universe.”"

- George Lucas, Flannelled One, July 2002 - as reported on the Cinescape site, from Cinescape Magazine


"Q: Do you supervise the development of all the off-movie stories? After all, Star Wars exists in books, comics.

A: You know, I try not to think about that. I have my own world in movies and I follow it. Of course that the people who expand this universe work for me, but I can't follow up all that they produce.

Q: Can you quote any good story other than the movies?
A: No, I don't think so. (laughs)."

- George Lucas, Flannelled One, July 2002 - From a TheForce.Net translation of a Brazilian site's interview

(dispellilng claims that Lucas 'reviews' and 'signs off on' the books - he hasn't even read any of them, and only reads the comics)


"STARLOG: The Star Wars Universe is so large and diverse. Do you ever find yourself confused by the subsidiary material that's in the novels, comics, and other offshoots?

LUCAS: I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. [B] When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."

- George Lucas, Flannelled One, Aug. 2005 - "New Hopes" interview in Starlog #337

(Further dispelling the claims that Lucas reads the novels or anything in the EU, beyond checking to see if someone else has used a name he comes up with, and a direct comparison from Lucas that states that the official SW canon policy towards the books is like the ST canon policy)


"Do you think you'd have other people continue the Star Wars saga past Episode VI or turn some of the other material into films?

But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books. But there's three worlds: There's my world that I made up, there's the licensing world that's the books, the comics, all that kind of stuff, the games, which is their world, and then there's the fans' world, which is also very rich in imagination, but they don't always mesh. All I'm in charge of is my world. I can't be in charge of those other people's world, because I can't keep up with it."

- George Lucas, Flannelled One, Mar. 2008, "George Lucas Talks Star Wars: The Clone Wars", StarWars.com

(Lucas touching briefly on his 'three-world' concept - his official SW world, the EU official SW world, and then the fans' own personal views of those worlds)

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Trekkie415
There are a few things you left out.

1. trek ships have a range of 0-200,000 Km where as SW ships ahve a range of around 5000Km

And SW weaponry has an effective targetting range of less than 100 km (5000 km was a very generous estimate based on demonstrated film ranges and statements on ships that were in and outside of weapons range).

2. As for speed, yes the SW ships would be faster, but only just. A ST ship can traverse the Alpha quadrant in around a week or two. SW ships can travers there galaxy in that time. But what you dont take into account is that the canon size of the SW galaxy is around 20,000 lightyears. The ST galaxy (the milkyway) is around 100, 000 lightyears. Yes the SW ships are faster, but not that much faster, and not nearly as fast as transwarp.

Actually, since the EU is not official canon, there's nothing in the SW canon material that says SW ships traverse their entire galaxy in a week - just a couple hyperbolic comments about 'being on the other side of the galaxy.' Pike, Kirk, Picard and Janeway have all made similar statements, at the very least. More accurate analysis (see st-v-sw.net) puts the average SW hyperdrive speeds above the average Trek cruising speed, but puts the Trek sprinting speed above the maximum SW hyperdrive speed.


3. SW ships are not as powerful as you might say, yes shot for shot they output higher dischages (Gj) but a ST ship can sustain a shot for exented periods of time, doing incramental damage accuratly outside of SW ranges. And it would take mabye 2-3 shots to bring down a Galaxy classes shields, however any ST ship caught in the DS's superlaser is DOOMED.

Obviously, any ship save an already-adapted Borg Cube is gonna get blasted by the superlaser, but it would take far more than just 2-3 turbolaser shots, or even full salvos, from an ISD to bring down a Galaxy's shields.


4. Photons have around a 64.4 to a 100 Megatonnes of payload. Like a small Nuclear missile, and some.

Actually, extreme low estimate is 100 megatons, based on explosions seen on-screen, but my own analysis suggests that 500 - 1000 megatons is more likely ('small nuke' indeed... the biggest nuke, the Russia Tsar Bomba, had a theoretical max yield of 100 megatons, and was only ever tested at 50).


6. Photons have an effectivea and accurate range of 770,000 Km.


No, minimum of 4.5 million km, with a potential maximum range of 94.5 BILLION km (depending on how fast Voyager was warping at the Kazon ships that were firing torps at her - minimum figure is based on a speed of Warp 1, maximum figure based on Voyager's maximum warp).


Haven't yet had the opportunity to fully read your post, Trekkie415, so pardon me for not commenting on it yet. I'll read it later today, though, and perhaps get something up over lunch.

[fireraven]

Biggest thing to remember about SW canon is that the movies override everything else especially books and games.... if there is contradiction then the movie takes precedence...

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Biggest thing to remember about SW canon is that the movies override everything else especially books and games.... if there is contradiction then the movie takes precedence...

No, the thing to remember is that, for the Official SW universe, the books, comics, games, etc. aren't canon. They're canon to the SW Expanded Universe, but not the Official SW universe. i.e. The books, comics, games, etc. all build off each other, in a parallel universe based on the films, but they are not part of the same universe as the films.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

@Trekie415: Finally read through your whole post. A very thorough analysis, though there are a few flaws. First and foremost (and this is a large contributing factor to your other flaws), you operate with the assumption that the Star Wars EU material is canon to the Official SW universe. It is not. The EU material is canon to the SW EU, but not the Official SW Universe, George Lucas' universe. They are parallel universes, but still different universes. Tibanna Gas, Hypermatter, galaxy-spanning civilizations, demi-god-Jedi/Sith, etc. etc. do not exist in the Official SW Universe (OSWU for short). According to the OSWU, the Empire/Republic spans only a small portion of their modest-sized galaxy. They do not have a significant speed advantage over the Federation (they can cruiser faster, but the Federation can sprint faster), and their firepower is drastically inferior to the Federation's. Trek weapons outputs are in the high petajoule/petawatt to low exajoule/exawatt range, where as Wars weapons outputs are in the terajoule/terawatt range, with high-end estimates putting individual weapons outputs into the low petajoule/petawatt range. Trek weapons outputs are some 2-3 orders of magnitude, 100-1000 times, greater than Wars weapons outputs on a per-weapon basis, at best (for Wars). Wars ships have more guns and more guns that fire than Trek ships, but that still far from makes up the Difference. At best, an ISD's entire weapons compliment might be able to match the sustained output of the Galaxy class' main dorsal array (at the launch of the Galaxy, before the inevitable refit to Type-XII emitters that would take place sometime between 2373 and 2380), but the Galaxy can fire, in a maximum salvo, as much as twice the total output from her main dorsal array (both main arrays as well as multiple secondary/mid-range arrays). At worst, the ISD's total weapons output is a thousand times less than the output of the Galaxy's main dorsal array.

You are also underestimating the Federation's industrial capacity (you touch on the capabilities of replicators, but fail to extrapolate the full industrial potential they would give the Federation, especially when incorporating holographic industrial tooling and equipment), and the size of their naval and ground forces. The Federation DOES have a standing army, or a Marine Corps.-like equivalient, and we've seen some of these soldiers over the years, from TOS and TMP to DS9. We also know that they are at least comparable in size to the surrounding powers, otherwise the Federation would not be able to hold ground targets against comparably-equipped and comparably-teched opponents (i.e. Cardassians, Dominion, Klingons, etc.). So, we can get an idea of the size of the Federation's 'army' by looking at the Cardassians losses during the Dominion War. At some point in 2375, after less than two years of war which they were, at that point, still generally winning, the Cardassians, probably the smallest notable power involved in the war outside of the Breen, had lost some 7 million troops. That's 7 million casualties in a generally victorious war, so the Cardassian military has to have had several times that number, at least (which says nothing for the number of Jem'Hadar). After ten years of cloning, the Republic Army gained some 1.2 million Clone Troopers. A generous estimate of increased production rates would give them some 5 million Clone Troopers during the Galactic Civil War. The Cardassian Union, one of the smallest major powers in the Alpha/Beta Quadrant region, lost more troops in less than two years of a war that they were winning, than the Republic Army EVER HAD. Estimates of the size of the Imperial Fleet also range comparably low, relative to the inflated EU estimates, with the equivalent to some 12-25,000 ISDs, where as the Federation fleet has been estimated (at a low end) of 6,000 ships during the height of the Dominion War (i.e. between production and losses of a war they were generally loosing, the Federation maintained some 6,000 ships on average), with 8-10,000 ships being the more common estimate. DS9 producers, including Ron Moore, have stated, however, that they believe that the Federation operated some 25-30,000 starships. The Imperial number advantage in fleet size is not particularly large, especially given their technological inferiority, and may well actually be non-existant, with the FEDERATION holding a numerical superiority over the Empire.

[fireraven]

No, the thing to remember is that, for the Official SW universe, the books, comics, games, etc. aren't canon. They're canon to the SW Expanded Universe, but not the Official SW universe. i.e. The books, comics, games, etc. all build off each other, in a parallel universe based on the films, but they are not part of the same universe as the films.
My point being that no matter what fantastic claims they make from EU, anything from the movie basically refutes it. So they can claim any insane numbers they wish but since the movies demonstrate turbolasers are slow and inaccurate since they are "manually" aimed and have trouble hitting objects moving at any decent speed then that's what they are. They can give vast powers to the jedi but apparently it's not all that hard to kill them since clones do it, droids do it even Jango Fett takes one down with a blaster

[panthera_knight]

Just to keep you honest, a few points.

The Galactic Empire has quite a few members, which was shown in the Senate in the prequels. There are more than 150 members.

Also, weapon power wise, the ship weapon output for both sides are effective against each other since the Millennium Falcon was shown in the Battle of Earth. It was nice to see that Han is a fan of the Federation, or the Feds and the Alliance are allies...or both.

Speed wise, in RotS in the end of the film, Palpatine got to Skywalker quickly after his encounter with the lava monster.

Now the Empire has more planets than the Federation and since weapon outputs are similar than I'd suggest that the Empire should win

However, as awesome as the Imperial Fleet is the ships have their shield generators placed outside the shields. And the Imperial Fleet lost at the Battle of Endor to a much smaller weaker force.

Imperial ground troops are next to useless. Their artillery, although mobile in walker form is slow and make large targets, and they're prone to falling. The troops wear next to useless armor, and they were defeated by hairy little creatures with stone age weapons.


So, in conclusion. Since the Federation is allied with the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassions, and the Alliance I give the advantage to the Galactic Empire...who gets the Imperial, Republic, and Separatist forces.

However...it's been shown that the x-men have hung out with Kirk and crew, and in effect Marvel Earth and Federation Earth exist in the same reality. And since Marvel and DC Earth exists in the same reality after the JLA Avenger crossover; the Federation get Superman and the Green Lantern Corps...and Wolverine, Spider-man, and Batman.

Therefore, the Federation automatically wins.

[trekkie415]

Ilithi Dragon fair enough i see your points. always assume that SD weapons were a lot more powerful considering almost every single st vs sw web page has that covered. but in a way, the empire has the entire galaxy to use for their army. whether they would like use gungans in their imperial army is another story. while the federation has the alpha and possible parts of beta to use.

as stated before, if times got bad, they could also use droids to fill their ranks. apart from the one and only data, the empire has droid technology down. they could probably use their droids to fill in the ranks, and if one breaks we can replace it.

the main idea of my post was basically who has the most allies. the empire shall stand alone, the federation shall seek everybody including the rebel alliance. that would be the winning factor. i honestly just added just some of my thoughts on the subject to be filler.

and be in fair, the cadassians were rather useless considering how many of their ships were outclassed by the federation. mad even worse by the dominion completely screwing them over. if the spoon-heads could have built better ships and had an ally that wasn't "founder your wisdom is supreme" then the numbers might have been more even

but honestly. the federation could win sw in a steamroll if they would just beam people into space...

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Ilithi Dragon fair enough i see your points. always assume that SD weapons were a lot more powerful considering almost every single st vs sw web page has that covered. but in a way, the empire has the entire galaxy to use for their army. whether they would like use gungans in their imperial army is another story. while the federation has the alpha and possible parts of beta to use.

But the Empire DOESN'T have a full galaxy to draw on - they have more worlds, yes, because a dwarf galaxy has a much higher stellar density than the large galaxy we live in (easily allowing for the Empire's million stars to all exist within a space even smaller than the Federation, which would also provide an explanation for the need of safe hyperspace lanes, due to the stellar density, not the nature of hyperspace itself). However, the Federation has much more than just 150 worlds. They have over 150 MEMBER worlds as of 2373, yet in TOS, it's mentioned that they're up to over 1000 colonies (and if I recall correctly, the context of the dialogue was such that it was 1000 HUMAN colonies, not 1000 colonies in the entire Federation), so the Federation undoubtedly has several thousand worlds, at the very least, by the mid/late 24th Century. The Empire controls some 1 million or so worlds, yes, but there is no data on how many of them are truly inhabited (versus just an outpost or waystation), nor on how densly populated those planets are.

Population densities can't be too particularly high for the Empire, however (outside of Coruscant, that is), since the largest war in recent history was fought between a few million clone troopers and a few hundred million battle droids (at most).

As for sites with over-rated Imperial firepower... Don't trust anything with ties to stardestroyer.net or Mike Wong or any of his cronies. They're a nasty bunch, and have deliberately attempted to distort fact across a broad front. www.st-v-sw.net is a pretty solid page, though I don't agree 100% with everything he presents (he generally shoots for 'extreme but fair low-end estimates' for Trek values, when they could easily be much higher than he presents, and there are a couple minor things that he's missed).

as stated before, if times got bad, they could also use droids to fill their ranks. apart from the one and only data, the empire has droid technology down. they could probably use their droids to fill in the ranks, and if one breaks we can replace it.

And has been demonstrated over and over again, SW battledroids just plain suck. The massed charges of the Clone/Storm Troopers would be suicide against the Federation, but the marching column advances of the droid armies would be target practice.


the main idea of my post was basically who has the most allies. the empire shall stand alone, the federation shall seek everybody including the rebel alliance. that would be the winning factor. i honestly just added just some of my thoughts on the subject to be filler.

lol Yay for filler! Without it, McDonalds burgers would just be flavor and grease! } ; = 8 ) The Federation's ability to ally itself with a lot of people would definitely be a huge point in its favor, but my point is that the Federation doesn't need to ally itself with anyone to handle the Empire.


and be in fair, the cadassians were rather useless considering how many of their ships were outclassed by the federation. mad even worse by the dominion completely screwing them over. if the spoon-heads could have built better ships and had an ally that wasn't "founder your wisdom is supreme" then the numbers might have been more even

The Cardies were seriously out-teched by the Federation, especially after the introduction of the ultra-long phaser array in the mid-2350s and the launch of the Nebula and Galaxy class starships (Starfleet's latest 'super-big' capital ships, and the first such designs to mount the ultra-long phaser array) in 2360 and 2363 (respectively). The Cardassian government also had deep systemic flaws, stemming from a military take-over of the government in the midst of a near-total depletion of resources and economic collapse sometime in the early 24th Century (though no specific date is given for the collapse of the Cardassian First Republic, the conversations between Picard and Gul Madred in TNG "Chain of Command" imply that Picard at least had been alive before the Cardassians had became a hostile military power, and that Gul Madred had lived through the hard times of the total economic collapse as a child). That said, they were still a fairly strong industrial and military power, and while they did complain about the number of losses they were taking later in the war, they weren't great enough to change the general opinion and outlook on the war as being successful for Cardassia as well as the Dominion as a whole. And either way, that still doesn't change the fact that the Cardassians lost more troops in a war that they were winning than the Republic ever had.

but honestly. the federation could win sw in a steamroll if they would just beam people into space...[/QUOTE]

[LordEnn]

Ilithi, 14,000,000 clones were produced in thirteen years. Approximately 1,600,000 were cloned by the Kaminoans, and 12,400,000 by Arkanian Microtechnologies, although those were 10% less efficient than their Kaminoan comrades (they took only a single year to reach maturity). Either way, the Clone Wars lasted only three years.

Has anybody, in any episode, ever stated the effects of lasers on Starfleet shields? "Lasers" from Star Wars aren't typical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser). Their beams travel slower than the speed of light, and use ordinary lasers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser) to energize blaster gas. It isn't just light. These neutralize shields, and tear apart anything that's ordinary matter. The way that shields operate on Starfleet vessels makes them much harder to penetrate, but battles between the Galactic Republic and the United Federation of Planets would still be extraordinary to watch.
:p You severely underestimate Star Wars, but I have to admit that, technologically, Star Trek is superior. Does this mean that I have to sell my lightsaber?
:(

[CrisNavarro]

if they fight in the sw galaxy, the dark force users win. if they fight outside of that galaxy and therefor outside the influence of the jedi force, then the technological inferiority of the sw galaxy denizens leaves them high and dry. darth nihilus however could wipe out the borg collective with a glance given the force to work with, however, i'm allowing that any life force that enters the galaxy get's a force connection, and the y.vong didn't, so the star wars guys are likely just screwed.
tech for tech trek is the winner, but "there are techniques within the force against which there is no defense."
that's my vote

Darth Nihilus couldn't even wipe out the Exile with a Glance. He couldn't wipe out Kreia with a Glance. He couldn't even wipe out the non-force users in the Exile's party with a glance. Nihilus ain't all that.

Besides, nowhere has it ever been established exactly how he killed all the Miraluka on Katarr. They certainly never said anything about him doing it "With a glance". Would be kinda hard to "glance" at an entire colony anyway.

At any rate, Nihilus's ability to kill things requires they be connected to The Force in the first place. Which the Borg, and everything in the Trek galaxy are not. So even if you dropped them in Wars territory, Nihilus would find his ability to "eat" them with the Force to be greatly reduced, if not flat out useless.

Everybody from the Trek universe would in a sense be very similar to the Yuuzhan Vhong. In that their complete lack of connection to the Force would likely make Force powers much weaker against them and flat out useless in many cases.

[LordEnn]

But the Empire DOESN'T have a full galaxy to draw on - they have more worlds, yes, because a dwarf galaxy has a much higher stellar density than the large galaxy we live in (easily allowing for the Empire's million stars to all exist within a space even smaller than the Federation, which would also provide an explanation for the need of safe hyperspace lanes, due to the stellar density, not the nature of hyperspace itself). However, the Federation has much more than just 150 worlds. They have over 150 MEMBER worlds as of 2373, yet in TOS, it's mentioned that they're up to over 1000 colonies (and if I recall correctly, the context of the dialogue was such that it was 1000 HUMAN colonies, not 1000 colonies in the entire Federation), so the Federation undoubtedly has several thousand worlds, at the very least, by the mid/late 24th Century. The Empire controls some 1 million or so worlds, yes, but there is no data on how many of them are truly inhabited (versus just an outpost or waystation), nor on how densly populated those planets are.

A typical Federation colony is populated by approximately 4,000 individuals. The Galactic Empire has approximately 1,000,000 worlds that are likely to be fully populated planets, or useful to the Galactic Empire in some way, whether they're major recruitment points, or planets rich in resources. To the Galactic Empire, a Federation colony is an outpost. Don't speculate. There is no data on how many of those planets are populated. That's true. But there is also a complete lack of data to support anything you've said about Federation colonies. There could be 1,000 colonies. There could be 5,000. Either cease the speculation entirely, or use it for both sides. Your bias is extraordinary.

SW battle droids plain suck.

You forget that, despite the severely limited effectiveness of B1 battle droids, and most other mechanical troopers used by the Confederacy of Independent Systems, there were quintillions of them. The B2 super battle droid was significantly more durable and intelligent than the B1, and they were also produced on a massive scale. By the end of the Clone Wars, there were quadrillions. The droideka, which was also mass-produced after the Trade Federation joined the Confederacy of Independent Systems, was significantly more powerful than the B1. If you consider the number of B2 super battle droids created, and the fact that they were also mass-produced, I'd estimate the number of destroyer droids at 100,000,000. After all, they were terribly expensive. If you wish to forget destroyer droids, however, do so. The B1 and the B2 are sufficient to conquer this portion of your argument. If it makes you feel better, pretend that there are only ten trillion of them. I won't even discuss Vulture droids.

Estimates of the size of the Imperial Fleet also range comparably low, relative to the inflated EU estimates, with the equivalent to some 12-25,000 ISDs, where as the Federation fleet has been estimated (at a low end) of 6,000 ships during the height of the Dominion War (i.e. between production and losses of a war they were generally loosing, the Federation maintained some 6,000 ships on average), with 8-10,000 ships being the more common estimate. DS9 producers, including Ron Moore, have stated, however, that they believe that the Federation operated some 25-30,000 starships. The Imperial number advantage in fleet size is not particularly large, especially given their technological inferiority, and may well actually be non-existant, with the FEDERATION holding a numerical superiority over the Empire.

You forgot to mention that Imperial I-class and Imperial II-class Star Destroyers composed only 70% of their combined might, which is what those estimates represent, Ilithi.

... may well actually be non-existant, with the FEDERATION holding a numerical superiority over the Empire.

Perhaps, but what the producers think is irrelevant. :p

[trekkie415]

i still say they should just beam every stormtrooper into space and them die expand to death.
get some cloaked ships, some carriers ships, and just start beaming people. take over the outpost send false information of an enemy force at so and so, go to the next undefended outpost repeat.

but honestly.
i would love to see an army of vulcan jedis
but to be fair, there would also be a sith army of frengi :D

but still. it is still a psycological effect of seeing a million droids coming your way vs your little army.
starship troopers anyone?

[Ilithi_Dragon]

A typical Federation colony is populated by approximately 4,000 individuals. The Galactic Empire has approximately 1,000,000 worlds that are likely to be fully populated planets, or useful to the Galactic Empire in some way, whether they're major recruitment points, or planets rich in resources. To the Galactic Empire, a Federation colony is an outpost. Don't speculate. There is no data on how many of those planets are populated. That's true. But there is also a complete lack of data to support anything you've said about Federation colonies. There could be 1,000 colonies. There could be 5,000. Either cease the speculation entirely, or use it for both sides. Your bias is extraordinary.

You accuse me of speculating, but you're doing just that yourself. Typical population of ~4,000 people? Where did you come up with that figure? The Empire's 1,000,000 worlds "likely to be fully populated" is also complete speculation - for all you know, over half of them are unpopulated, or have too small or temporary a population to be worth mentioning, with half the populated planets being no more densely populated than Tatooine, with only a tiny fraction of them actually being fully populated. You speculate that they are mostly fully populated. You also speculate that they are rich in resources, yet don't apply that same speculation to the Federation.

As for what I have said, it is FACT that the Federation had over 1,000 colonies at least as of the 2260s, because that is what Kirk told Cochrane in "Metamorphosis", and the context of Cochrane's question and Kirk's answer could be interpreted as 1,000+ Federation colonies total, or that just Earth/humans alone had over 1,000 colonies. Given that, and Picard's comments in "First Contact" about the Federation consisting of "over 150 member worlds", we can surmise that 1. the Federation had at least 1,000 colonies by the mid 2260s, and 2. the Federation had over 150 members by the 2370s. Obviously, Picard was referring to the number of homeworlds, or member races that comprised the Federation, not the actual planet count. With 1,000 colonies in the 2260s, and the general nature of the Federation, it is logical that that number would have increased significantly, especially considering the fact that there are a LOT of stars in a stretch of space 8,000 lightyears across.



You forget that, despite the severely limited effectiveness of B1 battle droids, and most other mechanical troopers used by the Confederacy of Independent Systems, there were quintillions of them. The B2 super battle droid was significantly more durable and intelligent than the B1, and they were also produced on a massive scale. By the end of the Clone Wars, there were quadrillions. The droideka, which was also mass-produced after the Trade Federation joined the Confederacy of Independent Systems, was significantly more powerful than the B1. If you consider the number of B2 super battle droids created, and the fact that they were also mass-produced, I'd estimate the number of destroyer droids at 100,000,000. After all, they were terribly expensive. If you wish to, however, forget them. The B1 and the B2 are sufficient to conquer this portion of your argument. If it makes you feel better, pretend that there are only ten trillion of them. I won't even discuss Vulture droids.

1. You should watch the CGI movie and series. The B2s and destroyer droids have a much poorer showing there than they do in the prequel trilogy.

2. You're pulling numbers from the EU again. How many times do I have to pull up quotes from Lucas himself that state, without any possible misinterpretation, that the EU and anything NOT in the SW 'features' (the films and the TV shows) is NOT part of Lucas' official universe? Lucas himself has unambiguously stated that the EU and all EU material separate, that it runs parallel to his universe, but that it is NOT a part of his universe. The EU is not canon.


You forgot to mention that Imperial I-class and Imperial II-class Star Destroyers composed only 70% of their combined might, which is what those estimates represent, Ilithi.

No, you misunderstood my statement. I said that the estimate was that the Imperial Fleet (excluding auxiliary craft such as tenders, transports, etc.) was the EQUIVALENT of 12-25,000 ISDs. It may have 6,000 ISDs and 30,000 lighter ships, but still the equivalent of 12-25,000 ISDs. Depending on the fleet make-up (which we can only speculate on), this could be as little as 12,000 ships, all ISDs (the Empire doesn't seem to have many ship designs, after all), or could be as many as 100,000 or more small ships, with only a handful of ISDs.



Perhaps, but what the producers think is irrelevant. :p

It's not a usable hard figure, but it's not entirely irrelevant, either. It gives us an idea of how many ships the people who were making the show thought they had to work with, and while we can't say for certain that Starfleet did have that many ships, it does provide support for a larger fleet size (i.e. it's definitive evidence, but circumstantial evidence is still evidence).

[LordEnn]

i still say they should just beam every stormtrooper into space and them die expand to death.

Star Trek wins. :eek:

You should watch the CGI movie and series. The B2s and destroyer droids have a much poorer showing there than they do in the prequel trilogy.

That's irrelevant. Firstly, the movies canonically surpass the animated series. Secondly, they're capable of better performance than their idiotic failures in the animated series. Units should be judged by their best. Perhaps it was an unsuccessful batch of droids.
:p


No, you misunderstood my statement. I said that the estimate was that the Imperial Fleet (excluding auxiliary craft such as tenders, transports, etc.) was the EQUIVALENT of 12-25,000 ISDs. It may have 6,000 ISDs and 30,000 lighter ships, but still the equivalent of 12-25,000 ISDs. Depending on the fleet make-up (which we can only speculate on), this could be as little as 12,000 ships, all ISDs (the Empire doesn't seem to have many ship designs, after all), or could be as many as 100,000 or more small ships, with only a handful of ISDs.

Those estimates were originally created for Imperial I-class and Imperial II-class Star Destroyers.

You're pulling numbers from the EU again. How many times do I have to pull up quotes from Lucas himself that state, without any possible misinterpretation, that the EU and anything NOT in the SW 'features' (the films and the TV shows) is NOT part of Lucas' official universe? Lucas himself has unambiguously stated that the EU and all EU material separate, that it runs parallel to his universe, but that it is NOT a part of his universe. The EU is not canon.

In all honestly, Star Wars is shallow and incomplete without the entirety of its content. If you draw solely from the movies and the cartoons, you won't get very far. It's useless without its extensions. If you refuse to accept anything but internal, primary canon, Star Wars fails on nearly all fronts. Fine. Most of the information I gave above was taken from secondary canon. If it doesn't count, Star Trek wins. There was hardly any speculation. I don't have to dress like a Bajoran now, do I?

[Snapshot_9]

oh please dress like one :P

[Eisenwolff]

Star Trek wins. :eek:

He was even generous i simply would emtpy the pattern buffer safe time and one 1 beam process

In all honestly, Star Wars is shallow and incomplete without the entirety of its content. If you draw solely from the movies and the cartoons, you won't get very far. It's useless without its extensions. If you refuse to accept anything but internal, primary canon, Star Wars fails on nearly all fronts. Fine. Most of the information I gave above was taken from secondary canon. If it doesn't count, Star Trek wins. There was hardly any speculation. I don't have to dress like a Bajoran now, do I?
The same goes for Star Trek we could use some of Tech/stunts they used in the ST Books and so on

[Snapshot_9]

He was even generous i simply would emtpy the pattern buffer safe time and one 1 beam process

The same goes for Star Trek we could use some of Tech/stunts they used in the ST Books and so on

exaclty, ST is using its pure movie and TV series canon, same as SW using its movies and animated TV series canon.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Yup. There's a whole slew of stuff from the Trek 'expanded universe' that could be brought to bear that would probably tip the balance well into Trek's favor again. The weaponization of the Genesis Device, for example, though unlikely to be used by the Federation in it's original form or the later weaponized form, still presents a very, very, very powerful technology, that the Federation could undoubtedly turn into very powerful, practical weaponry. A simplified form of the Genesis Wave, for example, that simply breaks matter down into its base particles, built into a beam cannon, would be devastating.

Now, that's just a speculative adaption of a non-canon technology form, but it does give you an idea of the kind of power the Trek EU would provide.

The excuse that the SW EU is canon fails, because there are two many direct quotes from the top dogs in Lucasfilms, Ltd. to the contrary, and the excuse that SW 'doesn't have enough data' without the EU fails, because there is still plenty of information to be gathered, if an actual effort is put forth in studying and analyzing the film instead of lifting quick-reference facts from a biased technical 'manual.' And the excuse that the SW is unfairly crippled by the exclusion of its EU fails because we have been completely foregoing Trek's EU, and the myriad of benefits that it would provide.

[Mooshique]

If your doing a Star Trek vs Star Wars thread on a Star Trek forum, its likely that one will be voted more than the other by default...

[fireraven]

Yup. There's a whole slew of stuff from the Trek 'expanded universe' that could be brought to bear that would probably tip the balance well into Trek's favor again. The weaponization of the Genesis Device, for example, though unlikely to be used by the Federation in it's original form or the later weaponized form, still presents a very, very, very powerful technology, that the Federation could undoubtedly turn into very powerful, practical weaponry. A simplified form of the Genesis Wave, for example, that simply breaks matter down into its base particles, built into a beam cannon, would be devastating.

Now, that's just a speculative adaption of a non-canon technology form, but it does give you an idea of the kind of power the Trek EU would provide.

The excuse that the SW EU is canon fails, because there are two many direct quotes from the top dogs in Lucasfilms, Ltd. to the contrary, and the excuse that SW 'doesn't have enough data' without the EU fails, because there is still plenty of information to be gathered, if an actual effort is put forth in studying and analyzing the film instead of lifting quick-reference facts from a biased technical 'manual.' And the excuse that the SW is unfairly crippled by the exclusion of its EU fails because we have been completely foregoing Trek's EU, and the myriad of benefits that it would provide.

which brings up and interesting idea... what would happen if the Genesis project was used on the Death Star....

[LordEnn]

Ilithi, Star Wars is incomplete without the entirety of its content. Star Trek, on the other hand, can last without its extensions. Obviously, that makes no difference. Star Trek wins. It can't be considered unfair because, quite frankly, Lucas forgot to include more technical data in the movies. That's unfortunate, but it isn't unfair. Star Trek wins. I yield.
:(

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Ilithi, Star Wars is incomplete without the entirety of its content.

As far as George Lucas, the creator and active license-holder of the entire franchise, SW IS complete with just the movies. The entirety of the universe that George Lucas created and called Star Wars is contained within the the two trilogies - it is the story of the 'tragedy' of Anakin Skywalker. SW is not incomplete without the EU, and if you ask the average SW fan, or the general movie-goer or owner of the SW movies, most of them will have little or no knowledge or concern for the EU. As far as most people are concerned, and as far as George Lucas is concerned, the SW movies ARE the 'entirety of its content.'

Your arguments about the SW EU are much the same that people who were uninformed or misinformed about the official Paramount/CBS canon policy have made about the ST 'EU'. And the reality is the same - just like ST, the SW books, etc. are not canon to the SW universe. One of the main reasons why the idea that the EU is considered canon is because of the crowd of 'Rabid Warsies', centered around Mike Wong, his cronies, have undertaken several extensive, and often hostile and hateful campaigns to spread the idea and drown out any who disagreed.


It can't be considered unfair because, quite frankly, Lucas forgot to include more technical data in the movies. That's unfortunate, but it isn't unfair. Star Trek wins. I yield.
:(

Lucas didn't forget, he never intended to include much technical stuff in Wars - that's just the nature of the story he was telling. However, there is plenty of technical data that can be pulled from the movies themselves, without having handy-dandy specific references. SW has plenty of combat, and with all that weapons fire being tossed around, there are several opportunities to gauge the firepower of SW weaponry, and the endurance of the various vehicles and defenses, and there is plenty of other data to be scrounged out of the films, the scripts, and the film novelizations. It's not easy, and there aren't many handy-dandy 'sound bites' to reference, but there is plenty of data to be had. And the analysis is half the fun, in my opinion.

Don't give up just because the EU isn't canon - do some research, make an analysis of your own, and present your findings. I guarantee it will be an educational experience, and about more things than just Wars.

[treknerd]

If the borg joined in the empire would louse they would be assimilated, and then well the borg would assimilate everything else.

[H8Hydrant]

Hmmm....


Star Wars= Long time ago, Some Po'Dunk Galaxy far away.


Star Trek- Future of This Galaxy.


You tell me who wins.

[Snapshot_9]

Hmmm....


Star Wars= Long time ago, Some Po'Dunk Galaxy far away.


Star Trek- Future of This Galaxy.


You tell me who wins.

FINALY, someone else who realises that SW is in a GALAXY FAR FAR AWAY.

[adriancrouton]

I posted something similar a week ago and was (naturally) told the idea to be sac-relig. Regardless, I'd be happy to submit my ideas on a ST/SW type venture...

My original idea went something like this: Considering the SW events, if we're basing this solely on the films as canon, the timelines would be thousands of years apart. So first off, we would need a way to figure out where events took place in relation to the SW and ST worlds. So, for example, we'll say if the events that took place in Return of the Jedi were somewhere around the equivalent timeframe of, I duuno, 600 B.C. in the ST world, things would look a lot different if the two stories collided. I had this thought of a story:

Some time in the 30th century or abouts, while exploring a neighboring galaxy, a Starfleet vessel discovers the ruins of an ancient civilization on a remote planet. This world is littered with advanced technology and buildings like they've never seen before...but no signs of life. A member of the away team notices a small blinking light near a large panel and as he approaches the wall, a holographic video comes to life and starts to play back a message to the visitors.

The message begins, "Greetings travelers. Welcome to the planet Corrosant..."

And in a dark corner, a few yards from the landing party, a pair of yellow eyes watches and waits...



It's a thought...

That is a awesome story line!! You shoud make a comic or somthing!

[LordEnn]

I'll follow that advice, and disprove your theory for estimating the size of Galactic Empire, as well as its accommodating galaxy.

The Milky Way is approximately 30,000 parsecs, or 30 kiloparsecs, across. One parsec is 3.262 light years. One kiloparsec is 3,262 light years. Those are the units of length. The Milky Way is a barred spiral galaxy. Based on the estimated number of celestial bodies in the accommodating galaxy of the Galactic Empire, which has always been very high, you said that it was a dwarf galaxy. However, aside from ultra-compact dwarfs, stellar populations in most dwarf galaxies are only slightly above the average.

Typically, ultra-compact dwarfs are below 400 light years across, and contain over 100,000,000 stars. Reliable evidence indicates that the galaxy in which the Galactic Empire was located is considerably larger, and the incredible intensity of the gravitational pull in ultra-compact dwarfs would prevent the formation of large amounts of astronomical bodies.

Elliptical galaxies, however, have a higher stellar population than spiral galaxies. This would explain the high stellar density of the space occupied by the Galactic Empire, especially if one considers the large number of globular clusters present in most elliptical galaxies. The stars in such galaxies orbit the center of gravity in random directions, which would explain the necessary existence of hyperspace lanes. As well as that, the largest galaxies are elliptical. Although they range from 100 parsecs to 100 kiloparsecs in size, the majority are over 40 kiloparsecs across, and a typical elliptical galaxy is 50 kiloparsecs in diameter. That's 163,100 light years, whereas the Milky Way is approximately 97,860 light years in diameter. If we are to speculate about the type and size of the galaxy containing the Galactic Empire in that manner, a likelier candidate would be a typical elliptical galaxy.

Unless there have been canonical examples of specific distances being covered in fixed amounts of time, or any reliable information about the size of the Galactic Empire, this makes Imperial vessels even faster. Either way, that galaxy is very unlikely to be a dwarf, even if the Galactic Empire was only several times the size of the United Federation of Planets.

Some sources state that it's a spiral galaxy, like our own, and could be very similar to our galaxy in size. However, if we're disregarding that in favor of likelihood and suitability, I'm correct. If we abandon likelihood and suitability, it could be any galaxy. Considering the existence of barred spiral galaxies with extraordinary stellar densities, it could be identical to our own. It is, of course, better to speculate on the basis of likelihood and suitability.

You also seem to underestimate Imperial armaments. Tell me what you know of the weaponry used on their ships. I don't believe that the text above contains any grammatical deviations. If it does, I apologize. Such things occur when you forget to sleep.

:p

[-One-]

Of all the times I've seen this argument I've never heard my point of view from anyone else.

If you're pitting the SW universe against the ST universe you have to rally all respective representatives against the others, that is Bring the Empire, Rebels, The Republic, Hutts, Geonosians, assorted guilds and non-aligned governments, Jedi & Sith against the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Ferengi, Dominion, Breen, Hirojen, Tholians, & Borg.

With that in mind bring us your vast Galactic Empire, your lightsabers, the Force, your Jedi, your Star Destroyers, your billions of TIE Fighters, the Sith, Darth Vader, Yoda, Wookies, BOTH Death Stars and all the trillions of gigawatts of power output...

Gene Roddenberry has that hack Lucas squashed with one letter.

Q

Gives new meaning to the term "Oh SNAP!"

[LordEnn]

Ilithi, it's worth noting that the InterGalactic Banking Clan, as its name suggests, was known to have reached the Rishi Maze, which was the dwarf galaxy orbiting the main system. Contact was also made with the second satellite galaxy orbiting the main galactic disk. Obi-Wan Kenobi accessed a map that showed the group of galaxies at the Jedi Archives, and it's canonical. In fact, Kamino was located near the Rishi Maze.

If you study the following image, you can see that the dominant galaxy could be a barred spiral galaxy, a lenticular galaxy, or a certain type of elliptical galaxy. Considering the average size of dwarf spiral galaxies, which the satellites in the picture appear to be, the dominant galaxy should have a diameter of over 32,000 parsecs. That's approximately 2,000 parsecs more than our galaxy.

The map from the Jedi Archives (http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/8/8a/GalacticMap-Jedi-Archives.jpg).

Could you post your arguments on industrial capacity and Imperial weaponry again? I'm unable to find them.

Q

I couldn't possibly argue with that, One. Q would annihilate the Galactic Empire, the United Federation of Planets, and everything else in existence within the observable universe.

:D

[adriancrouton]

SW wins, hands down:D

[Arachnidus]

All I have to say is this.

Defiant+Tom Paris+Transphasic Torpedoes (was in Endgame, it counts!)>Death Star

[LordEnn]

All I have to say is this.

Defiant+Tom Paris+Transphasic Torpedoes (was in Endgame, it counts!)>Death Star

You ruined my day (view my signature). :p

[adriancrouton]

get the planet eater on the SW side.

Now I know that the Planet eater is in a warp loop, but it may be possible to get it owt!

llithi plese don't ruin this idea.:(

[fireraven]

get the planet eater on the SW side.

Now I know that the Planet eater is in a warp loop, but it may be possible to get it owt!

llithi plese don't ruin this idea.:(

planet eater? do you mean the doomsday machine from Trek or is their one in SW?

[adriancrouton]

planet eater? do you mean the doomsday machine from Trek or is their one in SW?

Star trek TOS.

planet eater,doomsday machine, same thing.

[LordEnn]

Star trek TOS.

planet eater,doomsday machine, same thing.

Does it resemble a large cone?

[fireraven]

Star trek TOS.

planet eater,doomsday machine, same thing.
ok thanks for clarifying... only read about a dozen of the SW books most of them pretty old.. I never read the actual book but one of them made reference to some kind of world destroying machines of Emperor that were activated on Coruscant after the New Republic took it over(might of been something to do with the resurrected Emperor maybe?)

yes the Doomsday machine was a giant cone
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Doomsday_machine

[adriancrouton]

Does it resemble a large cone?

yes it does.

[adriancrouton]

there are a lot of doomsday machines in SW. heres a small list.

Grim Rever.

Planet devastator.

Galaxy gun.

Death star.

Eclipse star destroyer.

And many others.

[Napalmer]

I've been thinking on this topic (yes, I really do have nothing better to do) while watching ST:Enterprise/TOS/TNG/DS9/Voyager again (again, lotsa time) And I realized the one fatal flaw of the Federation. When the Emperor says "Jump" in the Star Wars universe, you jump until someone tells you to stop or Vader chokes you to death. On the other side, the Federation side, you can disobey direct orders from Starfleet time and time again with no reprisal. In other words, Star Fleet has no discipline and therefore would be rolled over handily by the goose-stepping proto-fascist Empire.

[Napalmer]

there are a lot of doomsday machines in SW. heres a small list.

Grim Rever.

Planet devastator.

Galaxy gun.

Death star.

Eclipse star destroyer.

And many others.

Which begs the question: How many doomsday devices do you really need to destroy a universe?

[treknerd]

yes it does.
Regradless iit would be on the star trek side it was in star trek TOS.

[da_firey007]

Star Trek has a few Doomsday Devices of their own

BORG

Genesis Device

And other stuff we have seen thought out TNG

I know it's a cope out but I know there is more I just can't remember them all.:p

[Mooshique]

I posted something similar a week ago and was (naturally) told the idea to be sac-relig. Regardless, I'd be happy to submit my ideas on a ST/SW type venture...

My original idea went something like this: Considering the SW events, if we're basing this solely on the films as canon, the timelines would be thousands of years apart. So first off, we would need a way to figure out where events took place in relation to the SW and ST worlds. So, for example, we'll say if the events that took place in Return of the Jedi were somewhere around the equivalent timeframe of, I duuno, 600 B.C. in the ST world, things would look a lot different if the two stories collided. I had this thought of a story:

Some time in the 30th century or abouts, while exploring a neighboring galaxy, a Starfleet vessel discovers the ruins of an ancient civilization on a remote planet. This world is littered with advanced technology and buildings like they've never seen before...but no signs of life. A member of the away team notices a small blinking light near a large panel and as he approaches the wall, a holographic video comes to life and starts to play back a message to the visitors.

The message begins, "Greetings travelers. Welcome to the planet Corrosant..."

And in a dark corner, a few yards from the landing party, a pair of yellow eyes watches and waits...



It's a thought...

Ooooh... It would take a while to get there though because its in 'a galaxy far away'... so i doubt Such a thing would ever happen, unless there was some sort of spatial disturbance...
Or even better, a spatial-temporal disturbance, so they go back to the time of Star Wars! @_o

Anyhoo, posting such a battle on a Star Trek forum is hardly logical, as it is obviously who would win in the views of the majority on such a forum.. :/

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Anyhoo, posting such a battle on a Star Trek forum is hardly logical, as it is obviously who would win in the views of the majority on such a forum.. :/

Or so you'd think. I posted in a thread like this over on the StarTrek.com forums, and was overwhelmed by pro-Wars posters (who mostly just shouted people down and called them stupid, etc. for not agreeing with them).

[LordEnn]

Or so you'd think. I posted in a thread like this over on the StarTrek.com forums, and was overwhelmed by pro-Wars posters (who mostly just shouted people down and called them stupid, etc. for not agreeing with them).

Unsupported bias deserves no place in comparative discussions. You'd be unpleasantly surprised by how many degenerates from both sides pollute such debates with their endless stupidity.

[-One-]

I still say Star Trek wins hands down because of one alien species everyone forgets or assumes wouldn't fight.

Q

Not just one, but a whole continuum of them.

Lucas can destroy planets one at a time as long as he likes.

Q snaps his fingers & the whole of the Star Wars galaxy just winks out of existance.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Unsupported bias deserves no place in comparative discussions. You'd be unpleasantly surprised by how many degenerates from both sides pollute such debates with their endless stupidity.

Actually, no, I wouldn't. I already know. o_o;


I still say Star Trek wins hands down because of one alien species everyone forgets or assumes wouldn't fight.

Q

Not just one, but a whole continuum of them.

Lucas can destroy planets one at a time as long as he likes.

Q snaps his fingers & the whole of the Star Wars galaxy just winks out of existance.

But that's no fun. Besides, when has Q or the Continuum ever been that beneficial?

[fireraven]

actually more then just Q... there appears to be several different "species" with god like powers in the Trek universe.... Douwd, Metrons, Wormhole aliens (both Prophets and Pah Wraths), Organians, and whatever Trelane and his parents were. Haven't read many of the Star Wars books but most species there seem to be the same with mostly cosmetic differences.

[walker555]

Borg Jedi anyone??? Ouch. if the Borg get just ONE jedi do ALL drones then have the ability to harness the force?

[fireraven]

Borg Jedi anyone??? Ouch. if the Borg get just ONE jedi do ALL drones then have the ability to harness the force? probably not.. they've assimilated species with psychic abilities like vulcans, betazoid and what not but don't seem to have their abilities. I imagine the invasive nature of Borg assimilation would disrupt the connection to the force

[Ilithi_Dragon]

probably not.. they've assimilated species with psychic abilities like vulcans, betazoid and what not but don't seem to have their abilities. I imagine the invasive nature of Borg assimilation would disrupt the connection to the force

But the empathic/telepathic nature of the various species they've assimilated are due to the natures of those creatures' minds. If the Borg have the knowledge of the Force, and how to use it, any drone with the midichlorian symbiont would be able to use that knowledge. But only drones with a sufficiently high concentration of the midichlorian symbiont.

Even then, I find it unlikely that the Borg would use such abilities to any great length - many of the species in Trek have demonstrated superior abilities to the Jedi in one form or another, and the Borg have assimilated most (even if only just a sampling), yet they depend primarily on technology instead of telempathic abilities.

[topekaguy1988]

Wookies vs Klingons FTW!!!

[metca]

just to clear the matter the borg originated from a being stronger than any being in star wars if u read Star Trek: Destiny ull know

A group called the Caeliar

[adriancrouton]

The Jedi and the Sith woud crush the Borg into dust. i'm not saying thare like god's, but some do have the power to crush a hole planet.

It's canon! it's canon! and you know it!

So stop telling Me it's not!

[Bad_Luck]

just to clear the matter the borg originated from a being stronger than any being in star wars if u read Star Trek: Destiny ull know

A group called the Caeliar

Didn't happen in the movies :rolleyes:
But, they could probably beat the Borg silly anyway because the Borg are stiff, lumbering, and not good at adjusting. Like Stormtroopers.

[Threshold]

The Borg would own the Jedi and Sith. The Borg would eventually match the energy frequency of their light sabers and would adapt to the sabers. Also, once a Jedi/Sith is assimilated the Borg will instantly gain the knowledge of the force. With the knowledge of the Force the Borg would be able to either nullify their powers or use the force on their own. I cannot see the Jedi or Sith winning in this situation.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

The Jedi and the Sith woud crush the Borg into dust. i'm not saying thare like god's, but some do have the power to crush a hole planet.

It's canon! it's canon! and you know it!

So stop telling Me it's not!

Denial isn't healthy.

[joriandrake]

The message begins, "Greetings travelers. Welcome to the planet Corrosant..."

And in a dark corner, a few yards from the landing party, a pair of yellow eyes watches and waits...


Let me correct this one:

The message begins, "Greetings meatbags. Welcome to the planet Coruscant..."



:p

[mattig89ch]

Let me correct this one:

The message begins, "Greetings meatbags. Welcome to the planet Coruscant..."

:p

If we're talking about HK-47 then it'd be like

"Statement: Greetings Masters. And welcome to the Planet Coruscant."

HK-47 never reveals himself to be an assassin droid until the very end.

[mattig89ch]

The Jedi and the Sith woud crush the Borg into dust. i'm not saying thare like god's, but some do have the power to crush a hole planet.

It's canon! it's canon! and you know it!

So stop telling Me it's not!


I agree! The sith would obliterate the borg, and the jedi would be meditating on what to do next.

Just get a sith lord like Nihlis, and they'd be eaten alive!

[osena]

would die a painfull death at the heads of Darth sidious hands down his sith lighting could rip wholes im time and space and i don't belive a brog could block a lightsaber cos the do not send out fec like blaster or phaser push jedi and sith alike could just crush a borgs head whit the force i am fan of both star wars and trek so i know alot of this facts

[adriancrouton]

The Borg would own the Jedi and Sith. The Borg would eventually match the energy frequency of their light sabers and would adapt to the sabers. Also, once a Jedi/Sith is assimilated the Borg will instantly gain the knowledge of the force. With the knowledge of the Force the Borg would be able to either nullify their powers or use the force on their own. I cannot see the Jedi or Sith winning in this situation.

So what if thay adapt to thare light sabers! the jedi will just use viroblade's there made out of metel, and the Borg can't adapt to sord's!

[fireraven]

meh just light their jedi dresses on fire and be to busy to do anything.... and all goes back to... if the Jedi are so uber powerful then why was there only one left at the end of RoJ and another potential? Vader picked up and threw the Emperor (darth sidious) over a railing. How was he able? because he was part machine which helped him resist the lightning, which is energy....
all else fails beam them into space and watch them suffocate.... and the Borg would have no trouble self-destructing a cube to kill a jedi aboard it...

[Catamount]

If Jedi are really so powerful, then why did it take nothing more than a handful of clone troopers to kill one at the end of the Clone Wars, or nothing more than a few handfuls of battle droids to wipe out dozens of them on Geonosis? Jedi and Sith are just as susceptible to conventional weaponry as anything else, only the Borg's idea of "conventional weaponry" would be like the greatest horrors of hell when compared to the primitive laser technology present in Star Wars (where mass technological stagnation shapes the nature of the galaxy). What's more, where as armies in Star Wars aren't particularly large (something like 1.2 million clone troopers made up the entire Republic force during the war based on comments made in Episode II), the Borg would have trillions of drones shooting at them. If a couple hundred droids can tare up the entire Jedi Order as of 22BBY, I'd love to see what a billion or a trillion Borg drones with better weaponry and adaptive person shields would do to them. The Jedi or Sith would all be dead before the Borg coming up on the rear of the battle even got a chance to see what was going on.

In fact, it wouldn't even take the Borg! The Cardassians LOST 7 times more soldiers in the Dominion War than the entire Galactic Republic HAD in the Clone War! What's more, the Cardassians aren't even a major power in Star Trek! If you took a more formidable power like the Federation or the Klingons, they'd wipe the floor with the Galactic Republic just on numbers alone! By the same token, the Galactic Empire would fare no better.

Sorry, but Star Wars is just not match for Star Trek, and all the bad story writing in the world by George Lucas since he decided to take on that pile of crap Episode 1 movie (and all subsequent films) do nothing to change that.

[adriancrouton]

No one seid the jedi were invincible.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

No one seid the jedi were invincebul.

Do you mean invincible?

And no, nobody specifically said the word "invincible", but the power you and others have attributed them would effectively make them just that.

[Catamount]

No one seid the jedi were invincebul.

Not to be mean, but for the sake of readability, please use a spell check a bit more while posting. Mixing up two real words like "your" and "you're" is one thing, but it's hard to read what you type. Just a tip, Firefox has one built in :).

As to your point, Ilithi is right. You people basically make them out as if they ARE invincible. They are not, nor would a few hundred Jedi or Sith make any difference in a war between Star Trek and Star Wars. In Mace Windu's own words, "We are keepers of the peace, not soldiers".

As for the actual overall topic of the thread, we never get a real solid idea of fleet sized between Star Trek and Star Wars, but as I pointed out previously, army sizes point to Star Wars being much, much smaller, and so less powerful just solely on military sizes.

As far as technology is concerned, there are plenty of analyses out there, but many lead to very different conclusions, so I won't get into that (beyond just saying that Mike Wong is a self-righteous idiot and the epitome of narcissism, and should not be brought up), but based strictly on the size of the given militaries it appears that Star Trek would win handily.

[adriancrouton]

Do you mean invincible?

And no, nobody specifically said the word "invincible", but the power you and others have attributed them would effectively make them just that.

Yes i did mean invincible.

But there are jedi and sith that are vary powerfull.

"he coud save other's from deth, but not him self"

[LordEnn]

If Jedi are really so powerful, then why did it take nothing more than a handful of clone troopers to kill one at the end of the Clone Wars

Firstly, the attachments between the Jedi and many of their troops, which formed after years of fighting, clouded their judgment, preventing them from immediately detecting treachery. Secondly, the clone troopers of the Grand Army of the Republic were executing a legal order.

The Supreme Chancellor became the military leader of the Galactic Republic after the Galactic Senate granted Palpatine greater authority, and he was legally permitted to directly issue any orders he considered necessary. Due to the fact that clone troopers were created with an unwavering loyalty to the Galactic Republic, most were unable to disobey orders. Most of them were unable to disobey the law. When it came to eliminating the Jedi, clone troopers didn't feel any negative emotions towards them. They felt no hatred, anger, or malice. They were simply performing their duties. Because of the lack of emotional responses from clone troopers towards them, most Jedi sensed no danger. They were easy to kill.

... or nothing more than a few handfuls of battle droids to wipe out dozens of them on Geonosis?

Approximately 210 Jedi participated in the Battle of Geonosis. That's an exceptionally low number. No less than 1,450,000 individual military units were immediately available to the Confederacy of Independent Systems, and over 3,500,000 more were stored on Lucrehulk-class battleships. Consider the extraordinary difference in numbers, as well as the considerable period of time the Jedi spent fighting their enemy alone.

Jedi and Sith are just as susceptible to conventional weaponry as anything else

Not quite. :p

... only the Borg's idea of "conventional weaponry" would be like the greatest horrors of hell when compared to the primitive laser technology present in Star Wars (where mass technological stagnation shapes the nature of the galaxy).

Star Wars doesn't use lasers.

What's more, where as armies in Star Wars aren't particularly large (something like 1.2 million clone troopers made up the entire Republic force during the war), the Borg would have trillions of drones shooting at them.

That's highly unlikely. In fact, it's closer to being an impossibility. The Grand Army of the Republic was comprised of approximately 1,200,000 units. The specific number of troops has never been stated. Considering most factors within the given setting, a much larger military force is far likelier.

If a couple hundred droids can tare up the entire Jedi Order as of 22BBY...

Over 50,000 droids attacked the Jedi in that arena at the Battle of Geonosis, and there were only 212 Jedi.

If a couple hundred droids can tare up the entire Jedi Order as of 22BBY...

The Jedi Order fell in 19 BBY, not 22 BBY. The Confederacy of Independent Systems had nothing to do with its destruction. Its droids weren't involved. I have absolutely no knowledge of the events you're referring to.

... I'd love to see what a billion or a trillion Borg drones with better weaponry and adaptive person shields would do to them. The Jedi or Sith would all be dead before the Borg coming up on the rear of the battle even got a chance to see what was going on.

That depends entirely on the Force-sensitives present at such a battle. Either way, the Jedi and the Sith wouldn't be able to resist an invasion by the Borg, partly because there are far too few of them, and partly because of their dependence on assistance from the established galactic government.

In fact, it wouldn't even take the Borg! The Cardassians LOST more soldiers in the Dominion War than the entire Galactic Republic HAD in the Clone War! What's more, the Cardassians aren't even a major power in Star Trek! If you took a more formidable power like the Federation or the Klingons, they'd wipe the floor with the Galactic Republic just on numbers alone! By the same token, the Galactic Empire would fare no better.

I addressed this earlier.

... bad story writing in the world by George Lucas since he decided to take on that pile of crap Episode 1 movie (and all subsequent films) do nothing to change that.

I enjoyed the third prequel, but the first two could have been far better. It's such a inexcusable waste of potential.

:p

But there are jedi and sith that are vary powerfull.

Most Force-sensitives are significantly less powerful than they're thought to be. They aren't divine.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

LordEnn, again, the EU isn't canon. Not in Official Trek Lore, and not in this thread. The only troop count we ever got for Wars was 200,000 clones ready and another million well on the way in AotC (unless other numbers were listed in the eps of the new CGI series I haven't seen). The EU figures simply are not part of official Wars, and will not be accepted in this thread, just like the Genesis Weapon, and any figures from the Trek 'EU' won't be accepted.

[osena]

LordEnn, again, the EU isn't canon. Not in Official Trek Lore, and not in this thread. The only troop count we ever got for Wars was 200,000 clones ready and another million well on the way in AotC (unless other numbers were listed in the eps of the new CGI series I haven't seen). The EU figures simply are not part of official Wars, and will not be accepted in this thread, just like the Genesis Weapon, and any figures from the Trek 'EU' won't be accepted.

Darth Bane books the jedi knight books just about all novels are cannon some comic books are cannon

[adriancrouton]

I'm not saying the jedi and sith are god's! i'm just saying that 1 out of 200 sith or jedi can crush planet's.

Is that hard to believe.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Darth Bane books the jedi knight books just about all novels are cannon some comic books are cannon

No, they're not. Lucas himself has firmly established that the Official SW canon is the features only, the films, and the CGI and (Upcoming) live-action series. The EU is not a part of Lucas' universe; Lucas himself has said that they are part of a separate, parallel universe, and has even gone so far as to compare how Wars canon is divided to how Trek canon is divided between the canon films/series and non-canon everything else.


I'm not saying the jedi and sith are god's! i'm just saying that 1 out of 200 sith or jedi can crush planet's.

Is that hard to believe.

Yes, especially since no Jedi has ever demonstrated any such power in Lucas' canon (and even the reports of a sith lord who could bring people back to life are suspect - I personally think Palpatine was BSing Anakin. Even if he wasn't, that's still a far cry from crushing a planet).

[osena]

No, they're not. Lucas himself has firmly established that the Official SW canon is the features only, the films, and the CGI and (Upcoming) live-action series. The EU is not a part of Lucas' universe; Lucas himself has said that they are part of a separate, parallel universe, and has even gone so far as to compare how Wars canon is divided to how Trek canon is divided between the canon films/series and non-canon everything else.




Yes, especially since no Jedi has ever demonstrated any such power in Lucas' canon (and even the reports of a sith lord who could bring people back to life are suspect - I personally think Palpatine was BSing Anakin. Even if he wasn't, that's still a far cry from crushing a planet).

it sets up the time lIne of the sith lords the rule of two never more then 2 one master one apprentice

[Ilithi_Dragon]

The Expanded Universe books, novels, manuals, comics, games, etc. are not canon in the official Star Wars universe. They are canon, officially part of, the Star Wars Expanded Universe, but they are not canon to the films and CGI/live action series, the officia SW franchise.

[adriancrouton]

Star wars nothing but Star wars everywhere:D

Go Star wars!

Captain it's another one of thos "fed" ships sir. Well what are you wateing for?! blow it up!!!

illthi actually I go betere with mayo.:p

[Ilithi_Dragon]

you and your darn canon! that's all you care about! and I bet, you and some of your friends are 40 years old and live in your moms basment!

You drive ME insane!:mad:

Actually, I'm a 21-year-old college student, working on a bachelor's degree in game software development. I live in my own apartment, and pay my own bills, working a full-time job on top of full-time classes. I'd wager you're not old enough to move out yet. } ; = 8 )

[LordEnn]

LordEnn, again, the EU isn't canon. Not in Official Trek Lore, and not in this thread. The only troop count we ever got for Wars was 200,000 clones ready and another million well on the way in AotC (unless other numbers were listed in the eps of the new CGI series I haven't seen). The EU figures simply are not part of official Wars, and will not be accepted in this thread, just like the Genesis Weapon, and any figures from the Trek 'EU' won't be accepted.

No. 200,000 units were on the way, not 200,000 troops. That's what the officials on Kamino said.

No, they're not. Lucas himself has firmly established that the Official SW canon is the features only, the films, and the CGI and (Upcoming) live-action series. The EU is not a part of Lucas' universe; Lucas himself has said that they are part of a separate, parallel universe, and has even gone so far as to compare how Wars canon is divided to how Trek canon is divided between the canon films/series and non-canon everything else.

Some of the expansionary material is bound to his official canon, both legally, and internally. I don't care about Lucas and his declarations.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

No. 200,000 units were on the way, not 200,000 troops. That's what the officials on Kamino said.

Whether or not the Kamino prime minister was referring to a military unit, or referring to individual clones as 'units' that they were producing is unclear. The prime minister's usage of the pronoun 'it' when referring to a singular clone suggests that at least the prime minister didn't see the clones as people, but merely a product which they were creating.

Either way, however, a military unit is generally a small force, the size of a squad or a platoon, boosting the size of the Republic Army by a factor of up to 100 at most.



Some of the expansionary material is bound to his official canon, both legally, and internally. I don't care about Lucas and his declarations.

Well, what Lucas says does matter, because he's still the license holder, he's still the guy running the company, and ultimately, he's the guy who sets the policy. What he says for his franchise, goes, period. Whether you like that or not is your problem, and whether you want to accept that in your own, personal canon (the 'holy ghost' of Lucas' Trinity analogy) is entirely up to you. In an open, public debate, however, we can't use personal views of the canon, we have to use the official materials, because our 'holy ghosts' are all different. Lucas' statements can also be backed up by statements from others in the franchise, so it's not just his word to go on.

[ahcshadow]

If starwars and startreck mixed the GFoP (galactic federation of planets) would destroy the empire easy.

[adriancrouton]

illthi is your avatar related to a little purple dragon?

I'm just really bord.

[LordEnn]

Whether or not the Kamino prime minister was referring to a military unit, or referring to individual clones as 'units' that they were producing is unclear.

That's precisely my point. It's a matter of likelihood. :p

Either way, however, a military unit is generally a small force, the size of a squad or a platoon, boosting the size of the Republic Army by a factor of up to 100 at most.

The military formations, or units, of the Grand Army of the Republic that can be seen contain 576 individual troopers. At the end of the second prequel, some were even shown to contain 624. It's likelier that Lama Su was referring to such units, not individual soldiers. If that's what he meant, the Grand Army of the Republic would be much larger. If he was speaking of battalions of 576 soldiers each, 200,000 such units would contain a total of 115,200,000 troopers. 1,200,000 such units would contain 691,000,000 troopers.

Purely for speculation, let's try using companies. An ordinary company in the Grand Army of the Republic comprised 144 troopers, and four such companies formed a battalion of 576 soldiers. 1,200,000 companies would contain 172,800,000 troops. If we lowered everything again, we could use platoons. Standard platoons comprised 36 soldiers. 1,200,000 platoons would contain 43,200,000.

Considering how many casualties the Galactic Republic suffers in most of its battles, and the number of wounded soldiers present on isolated, insignificant planets in the new series, an army of 1,200,000 troops would be far too small. The Confederacy of Independent Systems would have conquered the Galactic Republic within weeks. Its military would have collapsed within a month. 1,200,000 clones would never have been able to fight on thousands of battlefields. The Grand Army of the Republic wouldn't station a tenth of their force in a single location. The likeliest number of ships the Galactic Republic controls is also far too high for there to be such a small military.

Well, what Lucas says does matter, because he's still the license holder, he's still the guy running the company, and ultimately, he's the guy who sets the policy. What he says for his franchise, goes, period. Whether you like that or not is your problem, and whether you want to accept that in your own, personal canon (the 'holy ghost' of Lucas' Trinity analogy) is entirely up to you. In an open, public debate, however, we can't use personal views of the canon, we have to use the official materials, because our 'holy ghosts' are all different. Lucas' statements can also be backed up by statements from others in the franchise, so it's not just his word to go on.

Perhaps my phrasing was incorrect. I apologize. Most of the expansionary material is unrelated to his internal canon, but some is. Many of the enlarged statistics in the expansionary material were made by the same people that created the fundamental military concepts in "Star Wars", and that is the reason for their general canonical relevance, as well as their reliability. Unfortunately, Darth Nihilus hasn't been canonically categorized. Therefore, we must assume that he is irrelevant to the established setting. It's quite unfortunate, considering how great his powers were. Besides that, Darth Revan's mask was the best.
:p

Yes, especially since no Jedi has ever demonstrated any such power in Lucas' canon (and even the reports of a sith lord who could bring people back to life are suspect - I personally think Palpatine was BSing Anakin. Even if he wasn't, that's still a far cry from crushing a planet).

I suppose so. Some external sources are reliable, and some Force-sensitives possess extraordinary abilities. Force-sensitives like Darth Nihilus fit "Star Wars" perfectly, but there are very few that are so powerful. Most Jedi aren't even near that kind of power. Some people overestimate their general capabilities, but many also underestimate them.

[Catamount]

Firstly, the attachments between the Jedi and many of their troops, which formed after years of fighting, clouded their judgment, preventing them from immediately detecting treachery. Secondly, the clone troopers of the Grand Army of the Republic were executing a legal order.

The Supreme Chancellor became the military leader of the Galactic Republic after the Galactic Senate granted Palpatine greater authority, and he was legally permitted to directly issue any orders he considered necessary. Due to the fact that clone troopers were created with an unwavering loyalty to the Galactic Republic, most were unable to disobey orders. Most of them were unable to disobey the law. When it came to eliminating the Jedi, clone troopers didn't feel any negative emotions towards them. They felt no hatred, anger, or malice. They were simply performing their duties. Because of the lack of emotional responses by clone troopers towards them, most Jedi sensed no danger. They were easy to kill.

That's an interesting bit of theory crafting, but I'm not sure I agree with it for a few reasons. First off, the first Jedi we see killed in Episode 3 was not really caught off guard. He was already in the thick of battle deflecting fire from droid units, and far from a relaxed state. He seemed to realize what was about to happen and with his weapon already drawn he turned towards his troopers to see them level their weapons towards him. They fired on him and despite his best efforts he was unable to repel the attack from all of them, and was quickly killed. What's more, Jedi aren't just able to judge intentions, they're supposed to be gifted with a certain degree of foresight. Only a few of them seemed in a position to offer any fight, but even when they were (and they did seem to see what was coming, though too late in many cases) it still didn't take more than half a dozen to a dozen clone troopers to put one down.

Where this relates to Star Trek I would point out that if Star Wars really doesn't use lasers as you claim (and I would love to hear more on this topic), than what they do use must really be subsonic weaponry as it appears, or at the very least weaponry that travels at extremely subluminal velocities. Deflecting a subsonic weapon weapon would be one thing, but phasers travel as fast as light, as do most weapons in Star Trek (though admittedly the weapons used by Lore's Borg are quite slow). Two phasers shot at a Jedi or Sith from 2 different locations would easily be more than one could block, and so would render all of their force abilities completely useless (and, of course, result in death). In fact, I find it extremely unlikely that a Jedi could even block a single phaser blast. That would require a degree or foresight, timing, and precision that I wouldn't credit even a force-sensitive with.

Now even if I'm totally wrong in my assumptions here, the fact still remains that Jedi/Sith lack the necessary abilities to make up for their simple lack of numbers, and so would simply make little to no difference in such a war unless you had something like Bastilla's "battle meditation" at work, and that probably isn't even a canon ability (though, admittedly I'm not sure where a game like KOTOR would fit into SW canon).

No. 200,000 units were on the way, not 200,000 troops. That's what the officials on Kamino said.

You know, I really wish that Kaminoan had said "troops" rather than "units", not because it would have given numbers to Star Trek, but just because at least we'd have SOMETHING solid to go off of in this debate. Now you've taken us back to square one, thanks a bunch :p :p

The question of how large the Star Wars galaxy is is really at the very heart of this debate. We know how large our own galaxy is, and at least have a solid idea of the numerical strength of major powers within Star Trek, but we haven't the slightest clue how big the Star Wars galaxy is. We know the Milky Way is certainly a respectably large galaxy, and is in fact about 50% larger than we once thought, and roughly comparable to Andromeda according to some recent discoveries I've read about. By contrast, the entire SW galaxy could be one quarter of the size of the Milky Way. It could also be comparable or even larger. We just don't know, and we don't have any real solid figures within Star Wars about fleet sizes, numbers of inhabited planets, galactic population, army sizes, nothing. Without this information I'm not really sure where to take this debate. Technology means nothing if one side outnumbers the other by 100 fold.

Now let's say your largest figures are correct, and the Galactic Republic had a rather liberally estimated 700 million troops (give or take). The Cardassians alone seemed to have on the order of about 1/10 that amount. Though there's a lot of supposition in getting that number, it seems a reasonable number that Ilithi and I seem to agree on roughly. That means that in an invasion of the Alpha/beta Quadran by the Galactic Empire/Republic would probably see overall numbers of troops being more or less a draw (at least to the point to where one side wouldn't have multiples of what the other side does), assuming most major powers in our part of the galaxy joined the fight. Put another way, the Empire probably has an overall troop and fleet count similar to that of the entire Dominion. Obviously, the Federation alone would be seriously challenged by such a fight, but it is rather silly to assume that the Romulans, Klingons, Breen, Cardassians, Ferengi and a half dozen other races would just sit by and let themselves be conquered, or even sit by and watch the Federation be conquered by a power as malevolent as the Galactic Empire (as they would be next).

If we take your highest estimate there again, it possibly gives us something else. It might tell us the rough size of the Star Wars galaxy. The Galactic Republic had troops numbers that high during an active war, and the Empire probably maintained them because of how they ruled (which is similar to the Dominion). Similar troops levels and means of ruling probably means similar territory, which means the Star Wars galaxy might really by about the size of a single quadrant of our galaxy. That information, while admittedly based off of some very heavy conjecture piled on a bunch of other heavy conjecture, at least could give us a general idea of Star Wars FTL technology if that estimate of their galaxy is even remotely correct.

I'm not sure where this leaves us because as I previously said the debate on technology is horrifically nasty, but at least I'm dragging this never-ending thread on some more by trying to give something more to discuss :D

[starshipcaptain]

well neither follow the laws of space. theres no gravity so how and ships drop in space.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

well neither follow the laws of space. theres no gravity so how and ships drop in space.

To take you literally, there IS gravity in space. Gravity is a constant, and is everywhere in space - even YOU have your own gravitational field. You just have to be close in to a large stellar body to feel the effects of its gravity well.


Less literally, though, in some instances, the ships we've seen do that are in orbit around a planet, and subject to the gravity well of a planet, causing them to drop out of orbit when they lose flight controls.

In other instances, ships 'drop' away from damage they take not because of gravity, but because of Newton's Third Law of Motion: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. That explosion on their hull exerts pressure against the hull, and venting atmosphere or plasma acts like a rocket motor, also exerting force. If the ship loses flight controls, and is unable to maneuver, the force of the weapons fire and the atmosphere, plasma, etc. venting from any hull breaches will cause the ship to drift, and probably spin to a degree.

[starshipcaptain]

star trek in the early days they didn;t make space seem 3D they made it looked 2D flat

[fireraven]

star trek in the early days they didn;t make space seem 3D they made it looked 2D flat

that's more due to the restrictions of special effects technology then anything else

[Threshold]

So what if thay adapt to thare light sabers! the jedi will just use viroblade's there made out of metel, and the Borg can't adapt to sord's!
Yes they can!!!

[Verkruk]

Has it been determined yet if Lasers pose any threat to the Shield tech of the Federation?

I'm pretty sure I saw an episode that says they don't.
But I guess the SW universe does still have turbo lasers and torpedoes of some sort.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Normally, lasers wouldn't be able to penetrate Trek shields, unless it's an extremely powerful laser (it still takes energy to deflect the laser, and a strong enough laser would still overwhelm Trek shields, they're just really good at deflecting/dispersing EM radiation). SW weaponry, though, probably isn't based on lasers, but something else, such as a particle or plasma type weapon.

[treknerd]

One Letter Is all it takes for star trek to Kill the Star Wars Galexy "Q"

[Verkruk]

Normally, lasers wouldn't be able to penetrate Trek shields, unless it's an extremely powerful laser (it still takes energy to deflect the laser, and a strong enough laser would still overwhelm Trek shields, they're just really good at deflecting/dispersing EM radiation). SW weaponry, though, probably isn't based on lasers, but something else, such as a particle or plasma type weapon.

Thats kind of what I was thinking.

As for what kind of lasers the SW universe uses... I believe that the common lasers used by most ships and in the field were the typical laser. But then you had the turbo lasers which appear to be a particle type laser that obviously packs a lot more punch.

Sadly nothing is really said about the weapons by any cannon sources or George himself.

+(

[LordEnn]

That's an interesting bit of theory crafting, but I'm not sure I agree with it for a few reasons. First off, the first Jedi we see killed in Episode 3 was not really caught off guard. He was already in the thick of battle deflecting fire from droid units, and far from a relaxed state. He seemed to realize what was about to happen and with his weapon already drawn he turned towards his troopers to see them level their weapons towards him. They fired on him and despite his best efforts he was unable to repel the attack from all of them, and was quickly killed. What's more, Jedi aren't just able to judge intentions, they're supposed to be gifted with a certain degree of foresight. Only a few of them seemed in a position to offer any fight, but even when they were (and they did seem to see what was coming, though too late in many cases) it still didn't take more than half a dozen to a dozen clone troopers to put one down.

It's not a theory. Those are the actual reasons. Jedi require alterations in living beings to determine their involvement in the future. Much of the time, even the wisest of the Jedi, such as Yoda, are unable to penetrate the barrier of time. Without indicators, they simply cannot detect any possibilities. Because Order 66 was legal, very few clones reacted emotionally to its issuance. Because of the nonexistence of emotions, there was no catalyst for a sufficient indicator of treachery.

The Force surrounds all living organisms, and the death of so many created an enormous disturbance in the Force. The fact that most of the dead were Jedi intensified the disturbance due to their incredibly powerful connections to the Force. That is why Yoda, and several other Jedi, were able to predict what was to come. Foresight requires indicators in the Force. When there are none, it isn't easy to see the future. You must also consider the extraordinary rate at which most of the Jedi were exterminated. Time is often required to determine the events of the future.

As far as I know, everything else that you mentioned has been discussed before. :p

That aside, let's be truthful. What could possibly defeat the Q? :p

[LordEnn]

As for what kind of lasers the SW universe uses... I believe that the common lasers used by most ships and in the field were the typical laser. But then you had the turbo lasers which appear to be a particle type laser that obviously packs a lot more punch.

As of the conclusion of the Battle of Yavin, typical lasers had not been in use for thousands of years.

SW weaponry, though, probably isn't based on lasers, but something else, such as a particle or plasma type weapon.

That's correct. There were two known types.

The most common type fired a beam of particles. In such blasters, a small amount of gas moved from its cartridge to another chamber, in which the gas was energized by a power pack. Following that, the energized gas was magnetically compressed into a beam of intense particles of energy and light.

The less common type was used by the Grand Army of the Republic due to its effectiveness against mechanical components. These were based on plasma, and functioned differently. A gas was moved from its chamber into another, where it was ionized, and became plasma. After that, magnetic components altered the mass into a coherent beam of light and plasma. Their combination into a single body of energy made them many times more effective than plasma would have been individually.

As I previously said, however, lasers were used much earlier. Before the formation of the Galactic Republic, and during its early years, ordinary lasers were still being utilized.

[starshipcaptain]

so would lightscaper be able to deflect a constant stream from a phaser.

[LordEnn]

so would lightscaper be able to deflect a constant stream from a phaser.

Yes, but that would be largely irrelevant. Unfortunately, most Force-sensitives would only be able to avoid a small number of shots due to the speed at which such beams travel. Some of the more powerful Jedi, for example, could last for long periods of time. They'd be able to predict the immediate future, and some of them operated their lightsabers at incredible speeds, which means that they'd be fast enough to deflect quite a large number of shots. Some were even capable of creating a barrier around their bodies by using the Force. As I said, however, the majority of Force-sensitives would only be able to protect themselves for a very short period of time. In fact, many would be killed by the second shot.

:p

[John_Croat]

Was this posted b4....i don't know i just started to read this...

http://izlin.free.fr/eve/images/compilation.jpg

it shows the size difference in ships

[starshipcaptain]

ok let me get this stright

St has big ships and powerful lasers and SW has many small ship and huge camand ship. Star wars shild are a bit strongerand better motion adapters.

[LordEnn]

ok let me get this stright

St has big ships and powerful lasers and SW has many small ship and huge camand ship. Star wars shild are a bit strongerand better motion adapters.

Ships in Star Wars tend to be significantly larger, regardless of what purpose they may serve. However, vessels in Star Trek seem to have more durable shielding.

[John_Croat]

i just don't know where you get the data from...

ok i know that in star trek worf sometimes says something like charging shield to blabla gigatrons....or megawats or some other incredibly large number...

...you don't hear that in star wars....plus...watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4ijDlbvAxw) and this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNxhrPaaCA4&feature=related)
Star wars has the force....which star trek does not have...but we simply cannot compare what would happen in a large fleet battle between those two....
...we could compare what would happen in combat between federations best ship and empires best ship...and i would put my money on the empire

[Trpko_62]

i just don't know where you get the data from...

ok i know that in star trek worf sometimes says something like charging shield to blabla gigatrons....or megawats or some other incredibly large number...

...you don't hear that in star wars....plus...watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4ijDlbvAxw) and this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNxhrPaaCA4&feature=related)
Star wars has the force....which star trek does not have...but we simply cannot compare what would happen in a large fleet battle between those two....
...we could compare what would happen in combat between federations best ship and empires best ship...and i would put my money on the empire

Sorry, but I thing it is wrong bet. Just consider this:
All SW weapons are slower than light. Any ST runnabout doing warp 1.2 can easy outrun anything ISD, or even DeathStar can throw at him. Both phasers and photon torpedo are FTL. How can even most manuverable TIE dodge something he will see two seconds after it is hit. Force can probably predict this, but for how long?

Best regards,

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Sorry, but I thing it is wrong bet. Just consider this:
All SW weapons are slower than light. Any ST runnabout doing warp 1.2 can easy outrun anything ISD, or even DeathStar can throw at him. Both phasers and photon torpedo are FTL. How can even most manuverable TIE dodge something he will see two seconds after it is hit. Force can probably predict this, but for how long?

Best regards,

This is especially true if SW weaponry is plasma- or particle-based, due to their visibly slower-than-light speeds.


Further, data can be gathered by extensive analysis on the video footage, comparing explosion size, dialogue, and general effects against known scientific facts and data (popping asteroids, for example, provides excellent opportunities to gauge relative weapons strengths, even if precise figures can't be determined). Visual measurement of the Falcon's acceleration relative to other objects (which are either stationary relative to the Falcon, or moving/accelerating towards the Falcon, thus allowing us to get a good cap on the Falcon's maximum acceleration, deceleration and velocity) show that it has a peak acceleration on the order of some 250 m/s^2 (see here (http://st-v-sw.net/STSWfalcaccel.html)), where as Trek ships have routinely demonstrated accelerations on the order of tens of thousands to a few million meters/s^2 (see here (http://st-v-sw.net/STSWcompare.html#STL)). The Falcon and other small craft routinely pull tight manevuers comparable or fairly superior to those capable by modern fighter aircraft (several to a few dozen g's), while Wars starships show less maneuverability than a supercarrier. Trek starships routinely display high degrees of maneuverability, often pulling several dozen to several thousand g's.

Trek weaponry has also routinely demonstrated firepower orders of magnitude greater than Wars, with torpedo yields ranging from 100 megatons to multiple gigatons, where as Wars has rarely demonstrated low kiloton-range blast effects. Trek has also routinely demonstrated high degrees of weapons accuracy at ranges from several kilometers to tens of thousands of kilometers, to hundreds of thousands of kilometers, even millions or billions of kilometers for guided torpedoes. Wars weapons have trouble hitting kilometer+ sized capital ships a handful of kilometers away (which makes sense, to a degree, with particle or plasma weaponry that travels significantly slower than c).

[vp21ct]

Due to superior numbers and a more militaristic attitude, the empire would win.

However, that is not to say that their victory would be permanent. The Ideals of the empire conflict strongly with those of the federation, and the empire would likely face massive amounts of rebelion in such an instance. Further, while Hyperdrive is vastly superior to warpdrive (on par with transwarp and even quantum slipstream technology even in lower hyperdrive classes), it is signifigantly more limited, requiring large and presice calculations as well as being adversly affected by any body larger than a small moon.

Star Wars ships do seem to have more power to their systems (including sheilds) this seems to be caused by an economies of scale effect, meaning that they have more power because they use bigger generators (1/4 to 1/3 the interior of the ship, in the case of the death star 2/3). This makes their ships difficult to manuvuer because of the extra mass nessessary for containment.

Star wars weapons seem to be weaker than Star Trek weapons at first glance, however, it should be noted that there are a vastly greater number of these weapons per ship, and that they have a rather fast recharge rate. This evens the playing feild for vessels of equal size, which leaves the empire in the lead for weapons technology. On the ground however, imperial weapons are by far the inferior, with phasors being increadably multi-purpose and likely being able to support attacks on light armored veihicles.

Sadly, fleet tactics in star trek seem rather underutilized. This is likely because warp drive is not as limiting as Hyperdrive, and allows for a much wider battle feild. The federation would not likely be able to cope well with the large scale and clausterphobic engagments that the empire would force them into. Likewise, the empire would experience a level of gurilla warfare previosly unknown to be possible, as the enemy will be able to go anywhere, albiet more slowly.

As far as exotic technologies are concerned, the federation trumpts the empire at every turn, with replicators, transporters, and possible access to working cloaking technology. It is safe to assume however that after the first few defeats, this would pan out as the empire began to revearse engineer these technologies.



Ultimatly, such a battle would be decided by how key players reacted to the situation. A unified alpha quadrant would slow the empires advance to a crawl (before such a war inevitably began quieting unrest in the empire and allowing greater forces to be concentrated) during wich time much of the infastructure of the apha quadrant could be evacuated from battle feilds. There is also sector 31 to consider, which would employ tactics from illegal cloaking devices and transporter weapons to bio-terrorism and Augment shock troopers (KAAAAAAHHHHHNNNN is back). Ultiamtly, it would come down to how the rebelion reacted to this new presence, either taking advantage of it and sealing (by whatever means) the bulk of the imperial fleet in the Milky way galaxy (thus leaving the federation to its fate, but also decapitating imperial foces and severing supply lines), or lending aide to the Federation.


just some stuff for you all to think about.

[fireraven]

Star wars weapons seem to be weaker than Star Trek weapons at first glance, however, it should be noted that there are a vastly greater number of these weapons per ship, and that they have a rather fast recharge rate. This evens the playing feild for vessels of equal size, which leaves the empire in the lead for weapons technology. On the ground however, imperial weapons are by far the inferior, with phasors being increadably multi-purpose and likely being able to support attacks on light armored veihicles.
the reason Star Wars ships have a greater number of weapons is due to their being mounted in turrents that only cover a "small" field of fire... a Star Destroyer can not engage a target with every single weapon system at the same time... Newer Starfleet vessels (not counting Defiant class) seem to able to direct their phasers anywhere in 360 deg. arc.... think of Star Wars vessels like sailing ships of old... only weapons facing the enemy can fire
Sadly, fleet tactics in star trek seem rather underutilized. This is likely because warp drive is not as limiting as Hyperdrive, and allows for a much wider battle feild. The federation would not likely be able to cope well with the large scale and clausterphobic engagments that the empire would force them into. Likewise, the empire would experience a level of gurilla warfare previosly unknown to be possible, as the enemy will be able to go anywhere, albiet more slowly.
Federation starships seem to move faster with impulse then SW capital ships.. they would be fight more like the Millenium Falcon at the Battle of Endor then like the HMS Victory at the Battle of Trafalger
Superior speed and manuverablilty would let them exploit the many weakness found on the Imperial capital ships that the Rebellion utilized. This would let them stretch the Imperial battle line out as they attempted to engage Starfleet... as they ships got further apart then they could concentrate and destroy them piecemeal
As far as exotic technologies are concerned, the federation trumpts the empire at every turn, with replicators, transporters, and possible access to working cloaking technology. It is safe to assume however that after the first few defeats, this would pan out as the empire began to revearse engineer these technologies.
I imagine it could go the other way ... the Feds seem to be more scientifically profiecient then the Empire so they would be able to adapt quicker to SW technology.... SW technology seems to be consistent everywhere.... everyone basically has the same things.... The Feds often meet strange new species with new technology to puzzle out. Along with many Starfleet personnel having some kind of scientific background along with combat skills where as the Empire's military personnel are just soldiers... any tech the Empire got would have to go somewhere to be researched (if their power sources were even compatablie)... research on SW gear could be analyzed immediately on Starfleet vessels



just some stuff for you all to think about.[/QUOTE]

[vp21ct]

the reason Star Wars ships have a greater number of weapons is due to their being mounted in turrents that only cover a "small" field of fire... a Star Destroyer can not engage a target with every single weapon system at the same time... Newer Starfleet vessels (not counting Defiant class) seem to able to direct their phasers anywhere in 360 deg. arc.... think of Star Wars vessels like sailing ships of old... only weapons facing the enemy can fire

A valid point, and one that makes a signifigant difference in engagements between ships of a similar size. We have already established that that won't happen without very often. Imperial tactics already state that a Star Destroyer or Dreadnaught are to be the main attack craft, using their superior fire power and sheilds to overpower the enemy, something that we all can probably agree would happen. The smaller picket ships would be used to engage the enemy as they attempted to menuvure into blind spots. Another important fact to remember is that most federation star ships have only one phaser bank for each firing arc, while star wars ships will have several. This means that a federation starship will have to break from an anti-ship engagement to engage starfighters, giving captains even more to worry about.

Federation starships seem to move faster with impulse then SW capital ships.. they would be fight more like the Millenium Falcon at the Battle of Endor then like the HMS Victory at the Battle of Trafalger
Superior speed and manuverablilty would let them exploit the many weakness found on the Imperial capital ships that the Rebellion utilized. This would let them stretch the Imperial battle line out as they attempted to engage Starfleet... as they ships got further apart then they could concentrate and destroy them piecemeal

I was refering to the differences in warp drive an Hyper drive on that quote. Warp drive is slower, taking days to reach distant systems, where as hyperdrive can travel half the length of a galaxy in a matter of weeks. Hyperdrive is limited to use outside of a large gravity feild, and requires lots of navigational calculations. This forces star wars battles to take place at key locations, usually at very close range (like the battle of couruscant). Warp drive, as we have seen for much of the series, allows for very wide battles, with engagements usually occuring between 2 or 3 ships. Larger engagements that we see are very clumsy for both sides (battle for DS9) and incur heavy losses. Thus we can infer that the federation would not do very well in such close in battles where their menuverability wouldn't count for much, while exceeding at one on one, and wide battles, where it would count for more.

I imagine it could go the other way ... the Feds seem to be more scientifically profiecient then the Empire so they would be able to adapt quicker to SW technology.... SW technology seems to be consistent everywhere.... everyone basically has the same things.... The Feds often meet strange new species with new technology to puzzle out. Along with many Starfleet personnel having some kind of scientific background along with combat skills where as the Empire's military personnel are just soldiers... any tech the Empire got would have to go somewhere to be researched (if their power sources were even compatablie)... research on SW gear could be analyzed immediately on Starfleet vessels


While it COULD go the other way, it wouldn't. Mostly because star wars doesn't have much to offer the federation aside from hyperdrive, which would require whole new ship design.

[fireraven]

While it COULD go the other way, it wouldn't. Mostly because star wars doesn't have much to offer the federation aside from hyperdrive, which would require whole new ship design.[
I'm thinking more along the lines of researching out weaknesses in shielding and what not, adapting shields to deal with SW weapons... while not as good at it as the Borg, the Feds do learn quick.
I imagine transphasic torpedoes would make the Empire very unhappy....
I'll let Illithi deal with the phaser array since he knows it better then I ever will.

Boarding parties... Trek would have the advantage with transporters and force fields since apparently SW hasn't figured those out. Ie the Blast Doors on their top of the line Death Star

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Due to superior numbers and a more militaristic attitude, the empire would win.

Actually, the numerical superiority of the Empire is questionable. In AotC, we learn that the Kamino had 200,000 'units' ready, with another million 'well on the way.' Whether the Kamino prime minister was referring to individual clones, or a standard group of clones is unclear - the prime minister never makes any clarifying comment, and his reference to the clones as objects instead of people make it impossible to determine which he was referring to with any certainty. Now, a military 'unit' is a generally undefined term, beyond being a small, self-contained military structure. What little information I could dig up indicates that a military unit could be anything from 3 to 100 soldiers. This gives the Grand Army of the Republic an initial force of some 200,000 to 20,000,000 soldiers, with another 1,000,000 to 100,000,000 'well on the way'.

'Well on the way', however, is just as ambiguous, though we know that it takes the Kamino some 10 years to grow a fully-trained, combat-capable clone. The background of the Kamino facility shows many different stages of clone development, suggesting that production of new clones is still on-going, so 'well on the way' probably means that a fresh batch of clones is nearing the end of their manufacturing cycle, and would be finished in possibly a couple months, to a couple years.

Best case scenario, the Republic army has an initial force of 20,000,000 troops, with another 100,000,000 ready to hit the front in a couple months, and additional infusions of 100,000,000 troopers every year or two (there appeared to be a year or two gap between the ages of the different clone stages we saw in the background, accounting for accelerated growth).

Assuming they were at this full production for the length of the war, and then tapered off after the war ended (once the war was over, and the the Empire had consolidated its power, there would have been no need to maintain wartime levels of production, just replenishment of losses due to accidents, age, whatever combat they saw, etc.), that would give the Empire a starting force of some 400,000,000 troops (accounting for the apparent heavy losses during the war). Allowing for expansion and growth over the following 20 years, we could up that to some 800,000,000 troops (or 8,000,000 troops, worst case scenario).


Now, comparing this to the Federation isn't easy, but we can get some ideas. First, in "The Changing Face of Evil", we learn from Damar that some 7 million Cardassian soldiers have lost their lives in the war (which had been going on for almost two years, and which the Cardassians and their allies had been generally winning). Damar is making a speech to incite revolt against the Dominion, so if these losses were heavy or any particularly large portion of the Cardassian military, he would have played on it, but mentioned it more in passing comment of "we've shed our blood for them" instead of anger at outrageous losses. So, conservatively, we could say that these losses constituted no more than some 10% of the Cardassian military force, and probably less, which gives the Cardassian Union, a relatively minor power in the Alpha/Beta Quadrant, some 70+ million troops.

We also know that it took only a third of the Klingon Defense Force to wipe the floor with the Cardassian military. Now, obviously, they wouldn't have all faced each other at the same time, and the Cardassians have clearly been portrayed as being significantly less advanced than the Federation and the Klingon Empire, but the Klingons were expecting an advantage of surprise that they didn't have (thanks to Sisko). This makes getting a precise comparison difficult, but nonetheless, a rough figure for the size of the Klingon Defense Force would be some 200,000,000 troops, give or take.

We also know that the Federation is roughly comparable to the Klingon Empire in terms of military strength, and if anything, have a larger fleet with more personnel (though a lot of their ships are less combat-capable than the Empire). Just as a rough estimate, we could figure the size of the Starfleet forces at some 300,000,000 personnel.

Together, the Allies could probably match the upper end figure for the Imperial Navy, in terms of raw personnel count, and a worst-case-scenario for the Empire's numerical strength could easily give Starfleet the numerical advantage by orders of magnitude, in terms of raw personnel count.

Also, it's important to remember that the Federation and the Klingons held off a combined alliance between the Cardassians and the Dominion, a vastly larger military and industrial power, who could grow brand-new, combat-capable troopers in as little as two days (the Federation also had the ability to clone a full-grown, fully-functional individual in the same amount of time, if not considerably less - Kamino, eat your heart out).



Further, while Hyperdrive is vastly superior to warpdrive (on par with transwarp and even quantum slipstream technology even in lower hyperdrive classes), it is signifigantly more limited, requiring large and presice calculations as well as being adversly affected by any body larger than a small moon.

This is also debatable. There is no canon evidence that hyperdrive is capable of vastly superior velocities than warp drive. The concept of such vast hyperdrive speeds comes from the EU assumption that the SW civilization spans the breadth of a galaxy larger than the Milky Way, but there is no actual canon data that suggests that, other than a handful of hyperbolic statements (half of which come from Han Solo, of all people). In fact, there is evidence to suggest that the SW civilization not only does not span their entire galaxy, but actually occupies a mid-sized dwarf galaxy, and that hyperdrive speeds are much more comparable to warp drive.


Star Wars ships do seem to have more power to their systems (including sheilds) this seems to be caused by an economies of scale effect, meaning that they have more power because they use bigger generators (1/4 to 1/3 the interior of the ship, in the case of the death star 2/3). This makes their ships difficult to manuvuer because of the extra mass nessessary for containment.

Actually, we've had very little data on SW shield endurance. We know Trek shields can take a lot (usually, and relatively speaking), but we don't really know what Wars shields can take.


Star wars weapons seem to be weaker than Star Trek weapons at first glance, however, it should be noted that there are a vastly greater number of these weapons per ship, and that they have a rather fast recharge rate. This evens the playing feild for vessels of equal size, which leaves the empire in the lead for weapons technology. On the ground however, imperial weapons are by far the inferior, with phasors being increadably multi-purpose and likely being able to support attacks on light armored veihicles.

The problem is that the inferiority if Imperial weaponry is so great that, even if they were able to bring all batteries to bear on a target, the energy they could apply to said target would still be significantly less, potentially orders of magnitude less, than Star Trek vessels can bring to bear, especially with their torpedoes.

Further, Trek weapons have vastly superior range and accuracy, capable of hitting targets with reasonable accuracy at tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of kilometers for beam weapons, and millions to billions of kilometers for guided torpedoes. Wars weapons have trouble hitting large targets that are only a few kilometers distant.


Sadly, fleet tactics in star trek seem rather underutilized. This is likely because warp drive is not as limiting as Hyperdrive, and allows for a much wider battle feild. The federation would not likely be able to cope well with the large scale and clausterphobic engagments that the empire would force them into. Likewise, the empire would experience a level of gurilla warfare previosly unknown to be possible, as the enemy will be able to go anywhere, albiet more slowly.


On the contrary, Trek has demonstrated a very significant capacity for fleet tactics and engagements through the Dominion War. Such conflicts are rare (mostly because full-scale war between superpowers is uncommon in the Alpha and Beta quadrants), but it can't be denied that Starfleet and the other major powers of the Alpha/Beta Quads are quite familiar with fleet engagements at point-blank-range. In fact, Starfleet ships excelled in such an engagement, taking on twice their number in Dominion forces in just such a battle during Operation Return, and while they would have succumbed on their own, they still fared well enough that the arrival of a mere 300 additional Klingon ships was enough to turn the tide of the battle into a complete route of the Dominion forces. Starfleet and the Allied forces again showed great capacity for functioning in close-in engagements in the Second Battle of Cardassia, and presumably other major engagements of the war.


As far as exotic technologies are concerned, the federation trumpts the empire at every turn, with replicators, transporters, and possible access to working cloaking technology. It is safe to assume however that after the first few defeats, this would pan out as the empire began to revearse engineer these technologies.

Assuming the Empire would be able to achieve such victories, they would be reverse-engineering completely alien technology, the product of completely alien development paths, with very few points of reference to reverse-engineer from, which would make such reverse-engineering extremely difficult, even if the Empire had an extensive, highly-capable, highly-trained and highly-funded research and development branch (which seems unlikely, given the general stagnation of Wars technology).

[Ilithi_Dragon]

A valid point, and one that makes a signifigant difference in engagements between ships of a similar size. We have already established that that won't happen without very often. Imperial tactics already state that a Star Destroyer or Dreadnaught are to be the main attack craft, using their superior fire power and sheilds to overpower the enemy, something that we all can probably agree would happen. The smaller picket ships would be used to engage the enemy as they attempted to menuvure into blind spots.

Actually, the smaller Wars capital ships haven't shown much greater maneuverability than their larger cousins, implying that overall starship maneuverability in the Wars universe just plain sucks. The only craft we see pulling any kind of maneuvers like Trek starships routinely perform are the light transports, personnel craft not much larger than a fighter. Additionally, Trek ships wouldn't need to maneuver into Wars' blindspots - they could simply hammer the Imperial fleet from well beyond their weapons range, or make strafing runs at warp, eviscerating the Imperial fleet with FTL attacks.


Another important fact to remember is that most federation star ships have only one phaser bank for each firing arc, while star wars ships will have several.

On the contrary, most Starfleet ships can bring several arrays, large and small, to bear on every single firing arc. They have limited coverage from their main arrays aft, but their agility makes this a moot point, especially against the slow, wallowing maneuverability of Wars ships, and at the ranges at which they could engage the Wars ships.


This means that a federation starship will have to break from an anti-ship engagement to engage starfighters, giving captains even more to worry about.

Not true. We've seen Trek ships pepper out multi-beam 'porcupine' blasts on multiple occasions (watch the background shots of the Dominion War battles, it first happened long before Nemesis), or in concentrated, rapid-fire multi-beam salvos against fighter-sized craft (TNG "Conundrum"). With the large number of small arrays covering their flanks, Starfleet vessels would be well-suited to swatting down whole swathes of fighters and light attack craft with low-powered beams that drain little available power from their main arrays.



I was refering to the differences in warp drive an Hyper drive on that quote. Warp drive is slower, taking days to reach distant systems, where as hyperdrive can travel half the length of a galaxy in a matter of weeks. Hyperdrive is limited to use outside of a large gravity feild, and requires lots of navigational calculations.

Again, there is no evidence that hyperdrive is so much faster than warp drive. Conversely, if the SW civilization exists in a high-density dwarf galaxy as there is some evidence to suggest, the need for precise calculations and hyperspace lanes could actually be because of the stellar density, which would leave narrow lanes of travel between the gravity wells of individual stars, or of entire stellar clusters, allowing for a more liberal use of the hyperdrive in the less dense Milky Way.


This forces star wars battles to take place at key locations, usually at very close range (like the battle of couruscant).

Actually, it's probably their horrendous weapons range and accuracy that forces such close-range battles.

Warp drive, as we have seen for much of the series, allows for very wide battles, with engagements usually occuring between 2 or 3 ships.

Warp drive would also allow for FTL attack runs against Imperial forces.

Larger engagements that we see are very clumsy for both sides (battle for DS9) and incur heavy losses. Thus we can infer that the federation would not do very well in such close in battles where their menuverability wouldn't count for much, while exceeding at one on one, and wide battles, where it would count for more.

Actually, the Fed maneuverability would afford them well in a close-in engagement, especially the SW style of close-in engagement where battle lines mix and warships pull up alongside each other and engage the parking break before exchanging broadsides (and the Imperial close-in fights are certainly no less clumsy than the major fleet engagements of the Dominion War, especially considering most of the Allied fleets were largely able to maintain formations and battle lines, where as the battle over Courescant, at least what we saw of it, was disorderly chaos, with ships mixing freely to engage in mostly one-on-one parked broadside exchanges).

[vp21ct]

Actually, the numerical superiority of the Empire is questionable. In AotC, we learn that the Kamino had 200,000 'units' ready, with another million 'well on the way.' Whether the Kamino prime minister was referring to individual clones, or a standard group of clones is unclear - the prime minister never makes any clarifying comment, and his reference to the clones as objects instead of people make it impossible to determine which he was referring to with any certainty. Now, a military 'unit' is a generally undefined term, beyond being a small, self-contained military structure. What little information I could dig up indicates that a military unit could be anything from 3 to 100 soldiers. This gives the Grand Army of the Republic an initial force of some 200,000 to 20,000,000 soldiers, with another 1,000,000 to 100,000,000 'well on the way'.


This was, however, for a republic that had not seen a true war for 4,000 years. Both the CIS and the Republic knew very little about how to fight a war at the begining. It is also more realistic to assume that the clones constituted only the vanguard of the republic fleet, and that each of well over a thousand worlds had its own militia (likely ranging in size from 1/2 that of the US military to 10X that of all the militarys of earth put together). To give a proper comparison, a Mon Calamari star cruiser from the battle of Endor requires a crew of some 5,000-6,000 enlisted personel and has a troop transport capability for an additional 2,000. An Imperial Star Destroyer has a crew of 10,000-12,000 and troop transport of 'Several Legions of storm troopers' (if we take this by the roman definition, than that ammounts to 2,000 to 4,000 troops). We see hundreds of Star destroyers at the battle of endor, and even more through out the clone wars series, these fleets would equal in number to all of starfleet and yet we know that they are but a portion (a sizable one to be sure, but a portion none the less) of the Imperial armada.




This is also debatable. There is no canon evidence that hyperdrive is capable of vastly superior velocities than warp drive. The concept of such vast hyperdrive speeds comes from the EU assumption that the SW civilization spans the breadth of a galaxy larger than the Milky Way, but there is no actual canon data that suggests that, other than a handful of hyperbolic statements (half of which come from Han Solo, of all people). In fact, there is evidence to suggest that the SW civilization not only does not span their entire galaxy, but actually occupies a mid-sized dwarf galaxy, and that hyperdrive speeds are much more comparable to warp drive.


Even if it only spans a half of their galaxy and even if that galaxy is only tens of thousand of lightyears across, rather than Hundreds (like our own) that is stilll a far vaster empire than the entirety of known star trek space. With only such empires as the Dominion and the Borg comparing. Some maps would likely help

Star Trek (http://www.ucip.org/science/newmaps/quadrants.jpg)
Star Wars (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/c/c8/Galaxymap3.JPG)

We also know, through cannon (it is mentioned in AotC) that the Star Wars Galaxy has a satelite galaxy, meaning that it must be at least 2X as massive as the smallest galaxy (if it is to have a satelite and not be a binary galaxy)




Actually, we've had very little data on SW shield endurance. We know Trek shields can take a lot (usually, and relatively speaking), but we don't really know what Wars shields can take.


From what I have seen, Star Trek actually can't take all that much, Sheilds go down farely quickly when under phaser fire, and in the battle for DS9 ships seem to die rather readily. This means that their sheilds are weak, or that their weapons are very powerful. Star Wars could be the oposite, where a most ships only ever receive partial loss of sheilds, and starfighters are needed to make surgical strikes in these instances.

The problem is that the inferiority if Imperial weaponry is so great that, even if they were able to bring all batteries to bear on a target, the energy they could apply to said target would still be significantly less, potentially orders of magnitude less, than Star Trek vessels can bring to bear, especially with their torpedoes.

See above.

Further, Trek weapons have vastly superior range and accuracy, capable of hitting targets with reasonable accuracy at tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of kilometers for beam weapons, and millions to billions of kilometers for guided torpedoes. Wars weapons have trouble hitting large targets that are only a few kilometers distant.

all very true, but as I said earlier, the federation won't be engaging the empire in longrange engagements, it will be in orbit arround stellar bodies, not in deep space.





On the contrary, Trek has demonstrated a very significant capacity for fleet tactics and engagements through the Dominion War. Such conflicts are rare (mostly because full-scale war between superpowers is uncommon in the Alpha and Beta quadrants), but it can't be denied that Starfleet and the other major powers of the Alpha/Beta Quads are quite familiar with fleet engagements at point-blank-range. In fact, Starfleet ships excelled in such an engagement, taking on twice their number in Dominion forces in just such a battle during Operation Return, and while they would have succumbed on their own, they still fared well enough that the arrival of a mere 300 additional Klingon ships was enough to turn the tide of the battle into a complete route of the Dominion forces. Starfleet and the Allied forces again showed great capacity for functioning in close-in engagements in the Second Battle of Cardassia, and presumably other major engagements of the war.


We only ever saw engagements that were 'do or die' and required massive ammounts of resorces. It is safe too assume that such battles were not the norm.

Assuming the Empire would be able to achieve such victories, they would be reverse-engineering completely alien technology, the product of completely alien development paths, with very few points of reference to reverse-engineer from, which would make such reverse-engineering extremely difficult, even if the Empire had an extensive, highly-capable, highly-trained and highly-funded research and development branch (which seems unlikely, given the general stagnation of Wars technology).


Not nessisarily, Fusion power seems a given for both factions, and the 'Hyper-matter' that star wars ships use for fuel may well be anti-matter with a different name. Hyperdrive may also be an exotic form of warp drive (this is only my speculation). And the empire employs several genious scientists (the man who came up with the death star) The lack of technilogical development is more likely due to a lack of oustside influence.

[vp21ct]

Actually, the smaller Wars capital ships haven't shown much greater maneuverability than their larger cousins, implying that overall starship maneuverability in the Wars universe just plain sucks. The only craft we see pulling any kind of maneuvers like Trek starships routinely perform are the light transports, personnel craft not much larger than a fighter. Additionally, Trek ships wouldn't need to maneuver into Wars' blindspots - they could simply hammer the Imperial fleet from well beyond their weapons range, or make strafing runs at warp, eviscerating the Imperial fleet with FTL attacks.[\QUOTE]

This requires delving into the EU, most Star Wars ships smaller than a star destroyer ARE transports and fighters.


[QUOTE]On the contrary, most Starfleet ships can bring several arrays, large and small, to bear on every single firing arc. They have limited coverage from their main arrays aft, but their agility makes this a moot point, especially against the slow, wallowing maneuverability of Wars ships, and at the ranges at which they could engage the Wars ships.

settled.





Again, there is no evidence that hyperdrive is so much faster than warp drive. Conversely, if the SW civilization exists in a high-density dwarf galaxy as there is some evidence to suggest, the need for precise calculations and hyperspace lanes could actually be because of the stellar density, which would leave narrow lanes of travel between the gravity wells of individual stars, or of entire stellar clusters, allowing for a more liberal use of the hyperdrive in the less dense Milky Way.


If this is the case, then warp and Hyperdrive would become farely evenly matched, With warp attacks allowing for guerilla tactics, and Hyperdrive allowing for some secrecy in their movments (the only way to track a hyperdrive is to get which direction they were going in)


Actually, it's probably their horrendous weapons range and accuracy that forces such close-range battles.

I hold to the idea that weapons follow circumstances when it comes to sci fi, If you aren't going to be fighting at long range, why have long range guns.

Warp drive would also allow for FTL attack runs against Imperial forces.
this was agnowledged.



Actually, the Fed maneuverability would afford them well in a close-in engagement, especially the SW style of close-in engagement where battle lines mix and warships pull up alongside each other and engage the parking break before exchanging broadsides (and the Imperial close-in fights are certainly no less clumsy than the major fleet engagements of the Dominion War, especially considering most of the Allied fleets were largely able to maintain formations and battle lines, where as the battle over Courescant, at least what we saw of it, was disorderly chaos, with ships mixing freely to engage in mostly one-on-one parked broadside exchanges).

This could turn into a matter of circumstance, In a battle that is only slightly claughsterphobic, then yes, the feds are in advantage, but if it as close as the battle of endor, or the battle of couruscant, then fighter like menuvures from such large ships would result in wild colisions (in which, it is usually the bigger ship that comes out on top)

[Ilithi_Dragon]

This was, however, for a republic that had not seen a true war for 4,000 years. Both the CIS and the Republic knew very little about how to fight a war at the begining. It is also more realistic to assume that the clones constituted only the vanguard of the republic fleet, and that each of well over a thousand worlds had its own militia (likely ranging in size from 1/2 that of the US military to 10X that of all the militarys of earth put together). To give a proper comparison, a Mon Calamari star cruiser from the battle of Endor requires a crew of some 5,000-6,000 enlisted personel and has a troop transport capability for an additional 2,000. An Imperial Star Destroyer has a crew of 10,000-12,000 and troop transport of 'Several Legions of storm troopers' (if we take this by the roman definition, than that ammounts to 2,000 to 4,000 troops). We see hundreds of Star destroyers at the battle of endor, and even more through out the clone wars series, these fleets would equal in number to all of starfleet and yet we know that they are but a portion (a sizable one to be sure, but a portion none the less) of the Imperial armada.

But those numbers are not canon. There is nothing in the SW canon that says that the SW civilization is 4000 years old, or gives crew counts for any ship. Granted, they're probably pretty high, but nevertheless, we don't know any numbers.

Further, I disagree that it is more 'realistic' to presume that most of the worlds would be fielding local militia and military forces of their own, certainly not in any significant amount. By all accounts, aside from what anti-piracy forces the Republic Navy had prior to the war, most planetary forces consisted of security personnel, the equivalent of a police force, not a standing army.






Even if it only spans a half of their galaxy and even if that galaxy is only tens of thousand of lightyears across, rather than Hundreds (like our own) that is stilll a far vaster empire than the entirety of known star trek space. With only such empires as the Dominion and the Borg comparing. Some maps would likely help

Most dwarf galaxies are in the range of 10-20,000 lightyears, not tens of thousands of lightyears, and if the Empire/Republic spanned only half that, they'd actually be roughly the same size as the Federation - there are actually indications (based on the maps Obi-Wan references in AotC) that the Republic spanned something less than half the galaxy.



Star Trek (http://www.ucip.org/science/newmaps/quadrants.jpg)
Star Wars (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/c/c8/Galaxymap3.JPG)[/quote]

While interesting maps, and the Trek map is approximately accurate (excluding the explored space estimates, there isn't enough data on what space the Federation has explored to determine that), the Wars map is from the EU material, and isn't canon.


We also know, through cannon (it is mentioned in AotC) that the Star Wars Galaxy has a satelite galaxy, meaning that it must be at least 2X as massive as the smallest galaxy (if it is to have a satelite and not be a binary galaxy)

Actually, it was never stated in AotC that that was a satellite galaxy; it was never even stated as another galaxy at all, and even if it were a satellite galaxy (which would have been in the process of merging into the SW galaxy, given the distances involved if it were), that does not necessitate that the SW galaxy is large like ours - the satellite galaxy could just as easily be an even smaller dwarf galaxy, or perhaps even what was originally a MUCH smaller dwarf galaxy that was distorted out of its original, denser shape by the tidal forces of the denser SW galaxy as they merged.

But that is all just speculation. Simply put, there is no data there. There is nothing in the canon that says its another galaxy at all. It's just an unidentified object on a map that could possibly have been referenced (Obi-Wan's finger pointing wasn't very specific, just at a point and region some distance in from the rim of the SW galaxy).





From what I have seen, Star Trek actually can't take all that much, Sheilds go down farely quickly when under phaser fire, and in the battle for DS9 ships seem to die rather readily. This means that their sheilds are weak, or that their weapons are very powerful. Star Wars could be the oposite, where a most ships only ever receive partial loss of sheilds, and starfighters are needed to make surgical strikes in these instances.

Depends on the circumstances. Also, you have to remember that one of the big advantages the Dominion had at the start of the war was that their weapons could pass through Fed shields, an advantage they had off-and-on through the war after the Feds adapted initially. Further, the Cardassian ships are significantly less advanced than the ships of the other powers. Lastly, most of what we saw of those engagements was while or after the ships had closed to point-blank-range; considering that these ships have weapons ranges on the order of hundreds of thousands, to potentially billions of kilometers, it's very likely that considerable volleys of fire were exchanged before the lines met.



all very true, but as I said earlier, the federation won't be engaging the empire in longrange engagements, it will be in orbit arround stellar bodies, not in deep space.

Which can still take place at long range. SW hyperdrive hasn't shown any extreme precision when moving from one system to another, and there's no reason why the Fed ships would have to hold their fire until the battle lines were mixing.




We only ever saw engagements that were 'do or die' and required massive ammounts of resorces. It is safe too assume that such battles were not the norm.

But we heard of various other engagements that involved dozens to hundreds of starships, even if we didn't actually see them. And besides, it's never 'safe to assume' anything about such things that you've never seen, especially when the only comparable circumstances that you HAVE witnessed are contrary to your assumptions.



Not nessisarily, Fusion power seems a given for both factions, and the 'Hyper-matter' that star wars ships use for fuel may well be anti-matter with a different name. Hyperdrive may also be an exotic form of warp drive (this is only my speculation). And the empire employs several genious scientists (the man who came up with the death star) The lack of technilogical development is more likely due to a lack of oustside influence.

Again, hyper-matter is non canon. Fusion technology probably wouldn't take much to reverse engineer, but as you said, it's standard to both genres, so they wouldn't really be 'reverse' engineering much. Further, you don't know who came up with the Death Star (it appears to have been the work of an Seperatist faction, undertaking the project at the proxy behest of Palpatine, long before the Empire was formed), nor how many 'geniuses' the Empire employs. That is also from the EU.

[Catamount]

A valid point, and one that makes a signifigant difference in engagements between ships of a similar size. We have already established that that won't happen without very often. Imperial tactics already state that a Star Destroyer or Dreadnaught are to be the main attack craft, using their superior fire power and sheilds to overpower the enemy, something that we all can probably agree would happen. The smaller picket ships would be used to engage the enemy as they attempted to menuvure into blind spots. Another important fact to remember is that most federation star ships have only one phaser bank for each firing arc, while star wars ships will have several. This means that a federation starship will have to break from an anti-ship engagement to engage starfighters, giving captains even more to worry about.

Not to jump on the "let's all bash the Star Wars guy" bandwagon, but there's something that has to be considered about Star Wars weaponry. At one time (until the early 24th century), Star Trek ships were armed fairly similarly to Star Wars ships, with single phaser canons pointed in various arcs mounted in ball turrets. By the mid 24th century, that wasn't really the case though. All of a Federation starship's emitters are chained together into several very large arrays. That means that they have just as much firepower as any Star Wars cruiser (relative to their size and level of technology), but they have far superior firing arcs. It would be as if all of the turbolaser canons on an Imperial cruiser could have their power chained together and fired off in any single direction in a single blast. So that single phaser bank has all the power that dozens of individual canons would have, they're just able to direct it better.

What's more, as Ilithi pointed out Star Wars ships wouldn't be able to hit Star Trek ships with anything other than a few exceptionally fast guided weapons (like MAYBE concussion missiles). Star Wars ships could have weaponry thousands or millions or times more powerful than Starfleet ships and they'd still only be standing toe-to-toe with them because they'd literally have to blanket space around a ship to score even one or two hits. Even then the odds of landing that hit over a distance of thousands or hundreds of thousands of kilometers are just plain astronomical. Finally, photon torpedoes (and presumable quantum torpedoes) are FTL weapons. They can be launched at warp and impact a target at warp. That yields a huge advantage for the Federation and the allies it would be fighting with in any such war. It means that Imperial fleets would just be sitting ducks waiting to be ambushed by a dozen or two Starfleet ships firing off FTL volleys of dozens or hundreds of guided photon torpedoes. The Death Star would be even more of a sitting duck. It's unshielded, and each photon torpedo can generate a fireball the size of western Europe. I can imagine what would be left of it after a hit and run with a few hundred photons with a few quantum torpedoes in the mix (as imagining nothing is rather easy).

Most of your other points are already being discussed by Ilithi. I guess that I would just add in another mention that it should also be considered that Starfleet officers and crews are vastly, vastly superior to Star Wars crews. Starfleet officers are university graduates who have a very good grasp of science, history, military tactics, ship systems, philosophy, mathematics, language, and interstellar diplomacy. They aren't the dime a dozen peons that Imperial officers are. Even enlisted Starfleet crew members like Chief O'Brien seem far more knowledgeable and resourceful than any Imperial officer or crew member that I've ever seen.

This could turn into a matter of circumstance, In a battle that is only slightly claughsterphobic, then yes, the feds are in advantage, but if it as close as the battle of endor, or the battle of couruscant, then fighter like menuvures from such large ships would result in wild colisions (in which, it is usually the bigger ship that comes out on top)

This assumes that if Wars ships were really clustered so close together, that Starfleet ships would engage them by flying in between them and going broadside at low-speed "Wars style" (if you will). In actuality, if Wars ships were really commanded so incompetently so as to be clustered that closely, Starfleet would just pick the fleet apart with long range fire, especially massive torpedo spreads. They wouldn't even need to do FTL hit and runs at that point, and with the Wars ships so clustered together, they wouldn't even be able to maneuver and split up in reaction to this tactic, nor would they be able to quickly engage their hyperdrives to leave the area, and all for the reason you outlined that such close quarters prohibits maneuvering with large ships. The advantage becomes the disadvantage because FTL/luminal weaponry, greater acceleration and higher maneuverability will ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS give far greater flexibility in tactics to the Star Trek ships. There's no tactic that the Imperials can use with their lumbering ships that I'm aware of that Star Trek couldn't instantly adapt to, and Star Wars fleets would never be able to change tactics or adapt to new situations as quickly as Star Trek fleets.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

This requires delving into the EU, most Star Wars ships smaller than a star destroyer ARE transports and fighters.

Again, the EU is not canon. It has its own continuity, but it is separate from the official canon.




If this is the case, then warp and Hyperdrive would become farely evenly matched, With warp attacks allowing for guerilla tactics, and Hyperdrive allowing for some secrecy in their movments (the only way to track a hyperdrive is to get which direction they were going in)

I would say that hyperdrive allows more security from interruption or interception than detection (until the Feds figure out that gravity wells mess it up, and lay ships in ambush to throw up large gravity fields with their warp drives, but still, it's mostly secure from interruption). We know that SW sensors can't detect ships in hyperspace, but SW sensors pretty much suck, compared to Trek sensors. That's not a guarantee that Trek sensors could detect SW ships in hyperspace, but it's good odds for it.



I hold to the idea that weapons follow circumstances when it comes to sci fi, If you aren't going to be fighting at long range, why have long range guns.

That'd be like the U.S. Navy saying "Well, we seem to be fighting more at closer range, so we're going to do away with the cruise missiles on our ships." It makes no sense, especially considering the fact that we've seen several instances, especially in the original trilogy, where ships were 'out of range' while still being very close (within visual range). Especially considering some of those instances involved ships arriving into a system well beyond weapons range of their targets.


this was agnowledged.

But not sufficiently enough, I don't think. Wars weaponry is already horrendously inaccurate against their own large, slow-moving craft at fairly close range. They wouldn't be able to hit a damned thing when fighting smaller starships making long-range attacks at warp speed (if they could even see the ships at warp, which we don't know). Against a warp-mobile opponent, SW ships would be like fish in a barrel.



This could turn into a matter of circumstance, In a battle that is only slightly claughsterphobic, then yes, the feds are in advantage, but if it as close as the battle of endor, or the battle of couruscant, then fighter like menuvures from such large ships would result in wild colisions (in which, it is usually the bigger ship that comes out on top)

Actually, the battles of Endor and Couruscant were a lot LESS dense than the Second Battle of Cardassia, and especially the battle in Operation Return. Ships were significantly further apart (which, admittedly, wasn't quite as apparent due to the size difference, but still, even dismissing that, the relative distance between ships was much closer in the Trek fights, especially in Operation Return). Also, there were only 27 star destroyers visible in the Imperial fleet at the Battle of Endor, not hundreds, and the Rebel fleet was comparably sized. Trek ships wouldn't be able to use their vastly superior STL impulse speeds and strafe Imperial ships at major fractions of c (.25-.5c and above), but even at speeds relatively comparable to SW speeds, Trek ships are still highly maneuverable, and more than capable of maneuvering in the close confines of the fleet battles we saw at Endor and Couruscant.

[vp21ct]

There seems to be an intrinsic problem in this argument.


You guys don't know much about star wars.

If we take only the movies (and presumably reference material directly relating to the movies) than we come up with a few facts that you seem to consider as non-cannon.

Fact one, Hyper-matter is referenced in the cut-out books, which is, to my knoweledge, only concerned with the movies themselves and thus cannon, (i'm talking first edition).

Fact Two, the satelite galaxy, called the Rishi Maze, is reffered to by Dex as being 'just north of the Rishi Maze'. and is seen in this screen shot http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/8/8a/GalacticMap-Jedi-Archives.jpg

The smallest recorded dwarf galaxy is roughly the size of the Orion Arm (as a reference).

Fact 3: Much of the EU, is intrinsically tied into the Star Wars universe, With a true, accepted Cannon. If we go by the rules of 'Movies and Shows' only, than we leave out most of what we know. If we take this all away, than the data is simply insufficient.

[vp21ct]

That'd be like the U.S. Navy saying "Well, we seem to be fighting more at closer range, so we're going to do away with the cruise missiles on our ships." It makes no sense, especially considering the fact that we've seen several instances, especially in the original trilogy, where ships were 'out of range' while still being very close (within visual range). Especially considering some of those instances involved ships arriving into a system well beyond weapons range of their targets.


You totally missed my point here, so lets go on a little thought experiment, shall we. Imagine that your civilization has been expanding for hundreds of years via slower than ligh means, war is impractical since there is more than enough time to reach a diplomatic solution before ships are even halfway to war. Now you get a brand new type of FTL that can makes war possible, but theres a catch. You can't tell where your enemy is when they use ftl, and once in a gravity well it becomes useless. Puting up a gravity well pulls ships out of ftl. And once out of flt, it takes minutes to hours to be ready to activate it again. What would you do if this is ALL you had to go by, if no other way of going ever occured to you, what kind of weapons would you develop.

[Paulo999]

lol little star wars vs star trek creation of mine made on paint

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb1/DalekCaan_2007/terranempvsrepublic.jpg

[Catamount]

There seems to be an intrinsic problem in this argument.


You guys don't know much about star wars.


That's an interesting assumption, if totally lacking backing by anything whatsoever, sufficing to say I know more than enough, and Ilithi knows far more than I as he's done this sort of analysis before in greater depth than I have.


If we take only the movies (and presumably reference material directly relating to the movies) than we come up with a few facts that you seem to consider as non-cannon.

Fact one, Hyper-matter is referenced in the cut-out books, which is, to my knoweledge, only concerned with the movies themselves and thus cannon, (i'm talking first edition).

Fact 3: Much of the EU, is intrinsically tied into the Star Wars universe, With a true, accepted Cannon. If we go by the rules of 'Movies and Shows' only, than we leave out most of what we know. If we take this all away, than the data is simply insufficient.

I've heard these arguments on Star Wars canon many times, and aside from Lucas's own explicit statements, comments made on this subject by those involved with Star Wars seem nebulous on the subject at best.

Aside from that, I'm not sure what any other point you're presenting here is supposed to change. The novelization of A New Hope specifically describes fusion power for the Death Star (and so presumably for all ships), and even if it didn't, analysis of Star Wars special effects still don't show firepower ranges for Wars weapons that are comparable to Star Trek weapons. That fact doesn't change no matter what you call the stuff inside Star Wars powerplants, whether you call it a fusion reactor, a hypermatter reactor, or a peanut butter and fluff reactor. It really doesn't matter.

Fact Two, the satelite galaxy, called the Rishi Maze, is reffered to by Dex as being 'just north of the Rishi Maze'. and is seen in this screen shot http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/8/8a/GalacticMap-Jedi-Archives.jpg

The smallest recorded dwarf galaxy is roughly the size of the Orion Arm (as a reference).


You might have an actual point here for all I know, but the truth is I'm not even sure exactly what you're trying to get at here. Perhaps you could clarify this point so we can discuss it.

[Catamount]

You totally missed my point here, so lets go on a little thought experiment, shall we. Imagine that your civilization has been expanding for hundreds of years via slower than ligh means, war is impractical since there is more than enough time to reach a diplomatic solution before ships are even halfway to war. Now you get a brand new type of FTL that can makes war possible, but theres a catch. You can't tell where your enemy is when they use ftl, and once in a gravity well it becomes useless. Puting up a gravity well pulls ships out of ftl. And once out of flt, it takes minutes to hours to be ready to activate it again. What would you do if this is ALL you had to go by, if no other way of going ever occured to you, what kind of weapons would you develop.

This I can actually agree with you on, partially at least. Wars weapons are designed to take down Wars ships and thus far there has been limited need to totally scrap Wars weapons tech to develop newer, more accurate weapon technology from scratch. This also doesn't change the fact of the advantage for Trek ships though. Wars weapons are not only visibly subluminal (and so nowhere near the speed of light), but there's no evidence that the tech used to generate those weapons blasts are conducive to a weapon that can move as fast as light even if the need arose. That means that from the onset not only would Wars ships be stuck with "lemon" weapons, but it's likely they'd have to come up with totally new weapons designs to overcome the disadvantage rather than simply modifications to existing tech, which would keep this disadvantage going for months or years (far longer than it would take for such a war to be decided). Aferall, if Star Wars weapons could be modified with their existing tech to be FTL or even to as fast as light, doesn't it stand to reason that this would have been done already at some point during their 25k or so years in space for the sake of increased accuracy?

[Ilithi_Dragon]

There seems to be an intrinsic problem in this argument.


You guys don't know much about star wars.

If we take only the movies (and presumably reference material directly relating to the movies) than we come up with a few facts that you seem to consider as non-cannon.

Actually, I know quite a bit about SW (though admittedly, I know more about Trek than Wars).

However, your understanding of canon is flawed. Per Lucas' own statements, only the 'features' are canon, and none of the EU books, including the Incredible Cross Sections books (which I am assuming you mean by 'cut-out' books, which you should actually be very wary of, because their author, Curtis Saxton, is very active in the vs Debates (or at least was before, during, and for a period after writing the ICS books), along with Mike Wong, and various other decidedly pro-Wars characters, and there is evidence that the figures and data in the ICS books was deliberately manufactured to give Wars the 'definitive edge' (hence the ridiculously absurd power levels)).

A full accounting of the SW canon quotes (the full and various abridged versions of which can be found here (http://canonwars.com/)) reveals that the films (and now the CGI and upcoming live-action series, collectively 'the features'), and their scripts are hard canon, period, though the film novelizations and (to a minimum extent) the radio air plays of the original trilogy, are considered lesser canon, but nothing else is considered canon.


The Expanded Universe has its own canon continuity, which includes the films/features, but is separate from the official universe of George Lucas' Star Wars; as Lucas himself put it, it's a parallel universe. There's nothing wrong with the EU, in and of itself, it's just not the subject of this debate. This thread was started to debate official canon Star Trek and official canon Star Wars, not their respective expanded universes.

[vp21ct]

It was my understanding that the recent Clone Wars ****les marked the official merging of EU and Movie cannon.

also, if what you say is true, than neither can we have a truly accurate guidline as to how many ship exist in Star Fleet (because then those reference books are scrap as well), giving us next to nothing to go on. There by rendering this argument pointless.

As such, I offer a slight revision of the rules. EU cannon and ST books cannon of your choice to be added. Then let us compare notes.

Its not like the EU gives the Imps very much more than a numerical advantage anyway. Any of their superweapons is duplicated in like 20 different episodes of star trek, and surpased in 30.

[LordEnn]

But those numbers are not canon. There is nothing in the SW canon that says that the SW civilization is 4000 years old, or gives crew counts for any ship. Granted, they're probably pretty high, but nevertheless, we don't know any numbers.

But they were made to be appropriate. Some were created by the internal components of the development teams, and some were formulated by carefully studying all relevant aspects of each ship. When there are no specified figures, it's perfectly reasonable to speculate. Sometimes, that speculation can be considered to be as reliable as many facts. Those figures weren't simply pulled out of one's imagination. They are rational conclusions, achieved through overwhelming probability and examination.

Saying that those numbers couldn't possibly be acceptable because the movies didn't mention much technical information is ridiculous. If somebody had written a fantastical story about Darth Vader secretly having four heads, I wouldn't believe it because it would be unsuitable. But analysis is perfectly reasonable. Whether you like it or not, the majority of technical data created externally (outside the movies) for canonical ships in Star Wars is reliable, simply because it fits everything about the ships and the technology they utilize. I sometimes use external information because it fits, and because a considerable amount of it was made by those involved in the creation of the original concepts of Star Wars, as well as the movies. For example, the ideas for the New Jedi Order were created shortly after the completion of the third sequel by advisers of the secondary development team, but weren't expanded.

There is nothing in the SW canon that says that the SW civilization is 4000 years old...

The earliest known years of existence of the Galactic Republic are around 25,000 BBY. Yes, these aren't mentioned in the movies, but references are made to indicate that the origins of the established galactic government stretch back many thousands of years. Some of the oldest secondary canon is about the ancient history of the Galactic Republic, and the entirety of it seems reasonable.

Further, I disagree that it is more 'realistic' to presume that most of the worlds would be fielding local militia and military forces of their own, certainly not in any significant amount. By all accounts, aside from what anti-piracy forces the Republic Navy had prior to the war, most planetary forces consisted of security personnel, the equivalent of a police force, not a standing army.


According to the relevant expansionary material (which I'll trust due to its creation by members of the development team that assisted in the making of one of the movies), the Judicial Department fielded millions of personnel. It was, however, formed to enforce the law. It wasn't a specialized military force.

Again, there is no evidence that hyperdrive is so much faster than warp drive. Conversely, if the SW civilization exists in a high-density dwarf galaxy as there is some evidence to suggest, the need for precise calculations and hyperspace lanes could actually be because of the stellar density, which would leave narrow lanes of travel between the gravity wells of individual stars, or of entire stellar clusters, allowing for a more liberal use of the hyperdrive in the less dense Milky Way.

I've already discussed the size. I suggest that you locate that post and acquaint yourself with it.

This is also debatable. There is no canon evidence that hyperdrive is capable of vastly superior velocities than warp drive. The concept of such vast hyperdrive speeds comes from the EU assumption that the SW civilization spans the breadth of a galaxy larger than the Milky Way, but there is no actual canon data that suggests that, other than a handful of hyperbolic statements (half of which come from Han Solo, of all people).

More importantly, however, that assumption originates in astronomical fact, as well as likelihood. As I previously said, read my post (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=308642&postcount=859) on the size of that galaxy. You may have missed it. Direct canonical confirmation is largely unnecessary when fact indicates a large barred spiral galaxy, lenticular galaxy, or elliptical galaxy. Simply put, it's very unlikely to be a dwarf galaxy.

In fact, there is evidence to suggest that the SW civilization not only does not span their entire galaxy, but actually occupies a mid-sized dwarf galaxy, and that hyperdrive speeds are much more comparable to warp drive.

Read what I wrote above.


While interesting maps, and the Trek map is approximately accurate (excluding the explored space estimates, there isn't enough data on what space the Federation has explored to determine that), the Wars map is from the EU material, and isn't canon.

No, but it appears to be nearly identical to the following, which is canonical:

The galaxies (http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/8/8a/GalacticMap-Jedi-Archives.jpg).

As for the satellite galaxies, read the following from one of my older posts.

If you study the image of the galaxies (http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/8/8a/GalacticMap-Jedi-Archives.jpg), you can see that the dominant galaxy could be a barred spiral galaxy, a lenticular galaxy, or a certain type of elliptical galaxy. Considering the average size of dwarf spiral galaxies, which the satellites in the picture appear to be, the dominant galaxy should have a diameter of over 32,000 parsecs. That's approximately 2,000 parsecs more than our galaxy.

:p

Actually, it was never stated in AotC that that was a satellite galaxy; it was never even stated as another galaxy at all, and even if it were a satellite galaxy (which would have been in the process of merging into the SW galaxy, given the distances involved if it were), that does not necessitate that the SW galaxy is large like ours - the satellite galaxy could just as easily be an even smaller dwarf galaxy, or perhaps even what was originally a MUCH smaller dwarf galaxy that was distorted out of its original, denser shape by the tidal forces of the denser SW galaxy as they merged.

Compact dwarf galaxies don't usually form coherent geometric patterns when their stellar formations are disrupted by galaxies with more than three times their own mass.

But that is all just speculation. Simply put, there is no data there. There is nothing in the canon that says its another galaxy at all. It's just an unidentified object on a map that could possibly have been referenced (Obi-Wan's finger pointing wasn't very specific, just at a point and region some distance in from the rim of the SW galaxy).

No direct canonical statements are made. However, there is sufficient evidence for an analysis of the situation. It's much likelier that the accommodating galaxy of the Galactic Empire is between 28,000 and 50,000 parsecs in diameter. Anything below 28,000 parsecs (which is the general lower limit for its most probable type) is very unlikely. This means that it's of a similar size to our galaxy. In fact, it's probably larger. For comparative reasons, note that our galaxy is around 30,000 parsecs in diameter.

Further, you don't know who came up with the Death Star (it appears to have been the work of an Seperatist faction, undertaking the project at the proxy behest of Palpatine, long before the Empire was formed)

According to secondary canon, the original ideas for the Death Star were created by Raith Sienar (a military officer of the Galactic Republic). He shared his concepts with Captain Wilhuff Tarkin, and Tarkin gave them to Palpatine. The plans were then sent to Count Dooku, who presented them to the Geonosians for technical modification. It seems to fit primary canon quite nicely.

:p

It was my understanding that the recent Clone Wars ****les marked the official merging of EU and Movie cannon.

I think that's only relevant to events surrounding the Clone Wars. :(

[Ilithi_Dragon]

It was my understanding that the recent Clone Wars ****les marked the official merging of EU and Movie cannon.

Not in my understanding, and not in the understanding of others who have spent a LOT more time familiarizing themselves with the confusing intricacies of SW lore.

[vp21ct]

thank you lordenn.

[LordEnn]

also, if what you say is true, than neither can we have a truly accurate guidline as to how many ship exist in Star Fleet (because then those reference books are scrap as well), giving us next to nothing to go on. There by rendering this argument pointless.

Precisely. When there are no direct figures, using certain parts of secondary canon, as well as unexplained evidence from primary canon, is perfectly reasonable. Otherwise, there is no way to progress such comparative debate.

[LordEnn]

thank you lordenn.

:p

Actually, it may have been the opposite. Many of the stories in secondary canon may have been used as the basis for some of the series, which would effectively incorporate certain parts of it into primary canon.

[vp21ct]

I also want you all to know where I stand. I am a die hard trekkie all the way, and would be cursing every single Imperial victory going "WHAT THE ****, YOU ****ERS DIDNT JUST DO THAT". Unfortunatly, my username has some truth to it, I am a very logically minded person and as such have to agnoledge facts.

As far as data is concerned, the only way we would get an even amount of data on both sides of the argument is to incorporate EU and its reference books. The reason being is because there have been only 6 star wars movis, 2 mini-movies (animated clonewars) and 1.1 seasons of tv series (cgi clonewars). While star trek has 10 movies and over 20 seasons of tv series to go on (I know that number is small, correct it for me). there is a difference in the data.

That said, even with EU, the ultimate victor is the federation. Not because of technilogical superiority or superior numbers, but because of inherint flaws in Imperial doctrine.

[LordEnn]

That said, even with EU, the ultimate victor is the federation. Not because of technilogical superiority or superior numbers, but because of inherint flaws in Imperial doctrine.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. :p

You're likely to be surprised to know that I'm a loyal follower of Captain Jean-Luc Picard and the federal republic he serves.

:p

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Huzzah! You guys are actually a challenge! I'm going to have to do research and gather data I haven't gone over in some time. Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to continue tonight, because I need to finish getting ready to head to DC. I'll start pulling up my references and compiling data after I get back tomorrow. It'll be a while until I compile my data, though I'll probably post bits here and there while I'm putting it together.

[vp21ct]

Ok, I went over my stuff, and I have this to submit to you.

Illithi, it would even out the Data if we used reference material for the EU concerning ONLY the time period consisting of the original trilogy (essentially 0 BBY to 4 BBY) therby allowing reference to ships from that time period only. In turn, you have full use over any Star Trek reference book that does not exceed ST: Nemesis.

This leaves us on even terms data wise.

From there, we need to agree on HOW the imperials are entering federation space, and where they are entering from. Then we can carry this out of the realm of petty dispute and into a full fledged debate.

[Catamount]

It is true that unfortunately it's hard to get a real good solid number on anything in Star Wars as I previously said. Now I do agree with your analysis of the SW Galaxy size generally, LordEnn. I don't submit necessarily to the dwarf galaxy theory even if it would be convenient. Speaking on the subject of convenience, a lack of good information does not justify taking information to fill those gaps from wherever you feel like. Now if you want to use "secondary canon sources", that's fine, but what exactly do you consider to be such?

One thing I can't ignore as far as fleet numbers go is that Ilithi was right when he said there were only 27 Star Destroyers at Endor (although I counted 28, but then the video was low res so a star or 2 could have crept in there). Perhaps someone can shed some light there. This was the Empire's big opportunity to crush the Rebellion pretty thoroughly, and the best showing they could bring was less than 30 capital ships? Travel time obviously wasn't the issue, Star Wars ships can cross their galaxy (regardless of its size) rather quickly. If they had wanted to assemble 300 ships, or 3000 ships they should have been able to do so. Now I know Palpatine was generally arrogant, but for the sake of redundancy in case something should go wrong with the Death Star (like blowing up :D) I certainly would have brought a HELL of a lot more warships along than that, because even though that fleet was still stronger than the Rebel fleet, the strength difference wasn't exactly overwhelming so the rebels could have done (and did) a hell of a lot of damage to that fleet even if they would have eventually lost. Now that we're on the subject, what did happen to that fleet anyways? The rebellion destroyed the Death Star, and then all of a sudden the battle was over. What about all those star destroyers? Either they fled, which I find unlikely since they'd still try to destroy the Rebel fleet and crush the Alliance, or they were destroyed somehow by the Rebel fleet, in which case my point about bringing more ships is even more valid.

Come to think of it, I didn't exactly see thousands of ships above Coruscant either in episode 3. Where are these overwhelming numbers of thousands and thousands of capital ships SW is supposed to have when in the 2 biggest battles we saw in the whole saga never seemed to feature more than dozens of ships? Put another way, why should I believe the Republic/Empire could crush the Federation when the 2 biggest battles I've seen involving them had fleets that could be totally obliterated by a Federation task force like the one seen in Operation Return just on numbers alone? Now I'm not saying that that's all the Empire or Republic could field, it seems like an absurdly small number of ships for an interstellar power of any sort, but I do find the lack of large fleets in canon Star Wars to be very interesting.

[vp21ct]

You didn't see Star Wars: the Clone Wars did you (the animated one) that was thousands of ships, trust me.

[Zyrious]

The Force Unleashed is also Canon, as George Lucas himself helped with the story and canonized it personally. But i dont see how that game is necessarily relevant to the post here Just saying G level canon isnt all movies.

The Clone Wars and the Live Action Series thats planned are also canon. The LAS may shed some light on some more technicle stuff. It does take place between 3 and 4, so its rise of the empire era. it may give star wars fans some more fuel (or hinderances) to the argument.

[LordEnn]

It is true that unfortunately it's hard to get a real good solid number on anything in Star Wars as I previously said. Now I do agree with your analysis of the SW Galaxy size generally, LordEnn. I don't submit necessarily to the dwarf galaxy theory even if it would be convenient. Speaking on the subject of convenience, a lack of good information does not justify taking information to fill those gaps from wherever you feel like. Now if you want to use "secondary canon sources", that's fine, but what exactly do you consider to be such?

One thing I can't ignore as far as fleet numbers go is that Ilithi was right when he said there were only 27 Star Destroyers at Endor (although I counted 28, but then the video was low res so a star or 2 could have crept in there). Perhaps someone can shed some light there. This was the Empire's big opportunity to crush the Rebellion pretty thoroughly, and the best showing they could bring was less than 30 capital ships? Travel time obviously wasn't the issue, Star Wars ships can cross their galaxy (regardless of its size) rather quickly. If they had wanted to assemble 300 ships, or 3000 ships they should have been able to do so. Now I know Palpatine was generally arrogant, but for the sake of redundancy in case something should go wrong with the Death Star (like blowing up :D) I certainly would have brought a HELL of a lot more warships along than that, because even though that fleet was still stronger than the Rebel fleet, the strength difference wasn't exactly overwhelming so the rebels could have done (and did) a hell of a lot of damage to that fleet even if they would have eventually lost. Now that we're on the subject, what did happen to that fleet anyways? The rebellion destroyed the Death Star, and then all of a sudden the battle was over. What about all those star destroyers? Either they fled, which I find unlikely since they'd still try to destroy the Rebel fleet and crush the Alliance, or they were destroyed somehow by the Rebel fleet, in which case my point about bringing more ships is even more valid.

Come to think of it, I didn't exactly see thousands of ships above Coruscant either in episode 3. Where are these overwhelming numbers of thousands and thousands of capital ships SW is supposed to have when in the 2 biggest battles we saw in the whole saga never seemed to feature more than dozens of ships? Put another way, why should I believe the Republic/Empire could crush the Federation when the 2 biggest battles I've seen involving them had fleets that could be totally obliterated by a Federation task force like the one seen in Operation Return just on numbers alone? Now I'm not saying that that's all the Empire or Republic could field, it seems like an absurdly small number of ships for an interstellar power of any sort, but I do find the lack of large fleets in canon Star Wars to be very interesting.

That's why there are no precise canonical estimates for the sizes of fleets in Star Wars. The fact that only 30 Imperial ships are shown during the Battle of Endor doesn't mean much. It was probably the fleet assigned to defend the Death Star, and nothing else.

As for the Battle of Coruscant, we were only shown a small portion of it. :p The number of ships shown isn't necessarily the limit. I admit, however, that Palpatine was an idiot. He should have been more cautious.

The same thing is to be discussed about the United Federation of Planets. Approximately 700 vessels were shown in the battle to retake Deep Space Nine, but the Federation probably possesses thousands of ships. Lower limits cannot be set by specific scenes.
:p

You didn't see Star Wars: the Clone Wars did you (the animated one) that was thousands of ships, trust me.

Precisely. But that simply confirms it. Even before the animated series was created, it was a almost a certainty that the Clone Wars involved countless thousands of ships.

Now if you want to use "secondary canon sources", that's fine, but what exactly do you consider to be such?

I consider secondary canon reliable if its creation included the involvement of the development teams for the movies, or the animated series, or if such material is sufficiently based on the ideas and concepts of those development groups. A great deal of secondary canon is, in fact, connected to those teams.

[starshipcaptain]

you could easily destroy a empire ship form underneath. i mean really that how i do it in the star wars games go underneath the sup and swoop up and attack

[LordEnn]

The Force Unleashed is also Canon, as George Lucas himself helped with the story and canonized it personally. But i dont see how that game is necessarily relevant to the post here Just saying G level canon isnt all movies.

Unfortunately, apart from the movies and the animated series, it's the only other source of primary canon. I'm certain, however, that this will change in the near future.

Aside from that, the game also canonizes the fact that some Force-sensitives are extraordinarily powerful.

:p

[DrJackWolfe]

Lord we were fighting this battle in 89. I've spot read thisl large and intreresting thread and found it much more civil then the old usenet threads where Wong and the guy from the Netherlands would do dueling calculations about the density of an iron asteroid and the energy needed to dynamically uncouple it.

Oi

The one thing that was light on those threads, and seems to be here was the orginal series, could be an age thing, but if you check Kirk engaged at hundreds of thousands of klicks. It wasn't uncommon for thirty or forty thousand klicks to be considered point blank range, and federations shields were good for hits from planet destroyer weapons (like 2 hits but still).

Anyway carry on, and know it's time to quite when the following statements appear

"IONLY 64 megatons"
and
"The Enterprise barely has more firepower then an Ohio class SBN"

That given, in all out war I always bought the Empires size advantage, though clearly Trek had better manufacturing.

In a skirmish a Galaxy and a Victory ISD seem to match up well if you could throw all the BS numbers away, but a 70 year old Connie could trade shots the Death Star. :D Ok, not really, but they better put a grid on that vent, cause a photon torp is so going in that hole once Spock looks up from his viewer.

[vp21ct]

I think most of the civilty comes from the fact that nomatter who we think will win, we all WANT the federation to win :p

[John_Croat]

ah crap....i don't even bother reading all that...you guys just write too much :p

don't you think this discusion has gone a lil bit to far? you're comparing the very d of details....

[Catamount]

You didn't see Star Wars: the Clone Wars did you (the animated one) that was thousands of ships, trust me.

Thank you. That actually helped. I'll look it up and watch it at some point later since having school cancelled over 2 inches of snow has left me plenty of time today :D. Stupid North Carolina can't deal with a few flurries...

I consider secondary canon reliable if its creation included the involvement of the development teams for the movies, or the animated series, or if such material is sufficiently based on the ideas and concepts of those development groups. A great deal of secondary canon is, in fact, connected to those teams.

I suppose that stance isn't too unreasonable given the seemingly vague nature of SW canon in the first place. If you have access to such information, then bring it up and we'll see where it fits in I guess.

don't you think this discusion has gone a lil bit to far?

No... I think this discussion has gone WAY too far :D. Every day I pop in on these forums and it continues I, make fun of Ilithi for it. I just continue to post for giggles. I mean in all honesty, any point we might bring up has probably been discussed to death at least 10 times over the past 100 pages of posts. Hell, I think when this thread started I was arguing on the side of Vulcan Psycho (the Empire would win, but I hate them for it)!

[vp21ct]

So was Illithi, and I was against that at first.


thats life for you :p

[Catamount]

So was Illithi, and I was against that at first.


thats life for you :p

Isn't it the truth :D

[LordEnn]

I think most of the civilty comes from the fact that nomatter who we think will win, we all WANT the federation to win :p

In a war between the United Federation of Planets and the Galactic Empire, I'd prefer the Federation to emerge victorious. However, in a conflict between the United Federation of Planets and the Galactic Republic, for example, I'd prefer the latter to win. Am I not an ass? :p

It would be exceptionally helpful if this discussion was pinned to the top of the list of topics. There is a great deal of useful information within this debate, and it has maintained a high level of decency, which many similar discussions lack. Simply put, Star Trek and Star Wars are the best.

:D
<_<

[Catamount]

In a war between the United Federation of Planets and the Galactic Empire, I'd prefer the Federation to emerge victorious. However, in a conflict between the United Federation of Planets and the Galactic Republic, for example, I'd prefer the latter to win. Am I not an ass? :p

It would be exceptionally helpful if this discussion was pinned to the top of the list of topics. There is a great deal of useful information within this debate, and it has maintained a high level of decency, which many similar discussions lack. Simply put, "Star Trek" and "Star Wars" are the best.

:D
<_<

IT HAS BEEN DONE!!! The Japanese have discovered how to defeat the strongest force adepts! http://darth*****slapped.ytmnd.com/ This proves once and for all that there is hope for Earth to prevail in this battle :D

Edit: You can't view it because of the language filter... D: I guess you can just search for "Japan Owns Vader" on the site.

[fireraven]

from Lordenn (sorry went a lil overboard deleting stuff and messed up the quote)
According to secondary canon, the original ideas for the Death Star were created by Raith Sienar (a military officer of the Galactic Republic). He shared his concepts with Captain Wilhuff Tarkin, and Tarkin gave them to Palpatine. The plans were then sent to Count Dooku, who presented them to the Geonosians for technical modification. It seems to fit primary canon quite nicely.

now this is why agreeing on canon becomes important since the Jedi academy trilogy gives credit for the designing and prototype creation to the Maw installation and created by Bevel Lemelisk. Now these books were written before the prequels came out so... movie tops everything else...

[Traveller]

I think wud depend on who was invading who,home ground always an advantage.
That the Federation wudnt be able to deal with all the TIE Fighters is wrong,going by Starfleet Command Games the Federation had acsess to Carrier class ships tht were full of Fighters and bombers. Also would they not be able to set phasers to poind defense mode to eliminate figters and bombers.
Also weapos wise think phasers are more powerfull thn turbolasers just my opinion though.
In the end wudnt really like to pick a one side over the other.
Who ever wins will be at a disadvantage in the end and open to attacks from other empires.

[starshipcaptain]

a lightscaper cuts through anthing so no feeration bulkhead door could withstand it.

[LordEnn]

It would be good to see the United Federation of Planets ally itself with the Galactic Republic to combat the Borg. Such variations in the composition of fleets would be interesting to observe during a battle.

[fireraven]

a lightscaper cuts through anthing so no feeration bulkhead door could withstand it.

except apparently cloth since when vader cuts obi-wan down his cloak is still in one piece.... lol course nothing funnier then coming across a Jedi with his saber stuck in metal trying to cut it when you shoot him down....

[vp21ct]

a lightscaper cuts through anthing so no feeration bulkhead door could withstand it.

And the lightsaber vs phaser debate has already met its timely demise many times before.

Wide beam setting

[starshipcaptain]

ya phase can even vaperive targets. on the other hand i beta Tie fighter could get close to the hull fo a star trek ship and fire . being so close to the hull i dougth they would be able to fire there phasers

[DrJackWolfe]

ya phase can even vaperive targets. on the other hand i beta Tie fighter could get close to the hull fo a star trek ship and fire . being so close to the hull i dougth they would be able to fire there phasers

Yeah, no. Fed shields are a bubble around the ship (ok sometime formfitting to save budget or you know 1960s tech) items that collide against them with any type of speed bounce off in a random direction. There are several example of this in ST:TNG

Ro Lauren tapping the Big E's shields with a shuttle during her undercover mission in the resistance (Riker let the shuttle through)

The episode where the prisoner bounced his escape pod of the Big E.

Torpedoes work because of bad writing and a warhead programed to detonate when it detects a shield signature.

[Zyrious]

And the lightsaber vs phaser debate has already met its timely demise many times before.

Wide beam setting

I'd debate that the wide beam setting has sort of been retconned out of trek. Otherwise, it would be used in every major battle, ever. There must be some kind of inherent weakness or instability of the setting that puts the user and/or ship at risk, otherwise swaths of dominion would have been cut down in short order...

In other words, the Wide Beam Setting is a form of Deus Ex Machina. There are lots of those in Star Trek.

Either way, Wide Beam has no gaurentee to work against Darth Vader's armor, established to be capable of taking slight hits from lightsabers with minimal to no damage. And, considering we're essentially arguing Empire vs Federation, That means Vader is gonna be your enemy, not Jedi. Oh, and then there's the whole "Push you over, or pull your weapon out of your hand" thing.

But largely, a Lightsaber alone isnt enough to defeat a Deus Ex Machina, no.

[fireraven]

I'd debate that the wide beam setting has sort of been retconned out of trek. Otherwise, it would be used in every major battle, ever. There must be some kind of inherent weakness or instability of the setting that puts the user and/or ship at risk, otherwise swaths of dominion would have been cut down in short order...
. the downside to a wide beam phaser setting is lower power hits a target.... kind of like the difference between a shotgun with birdshot vs a slug. the birdshot might hit more targets or more areas of a target but the slug deals more damage.

now the lightsaber and jedi are definately turning in Deus Ex Machina

[vp21ct]

As fireraven said, power goes down with Wide beam. If I remember correctly, its limited to stun, which arguably wouldn't stun a jedi, but thats not the point. Get 3-5 guys hitting you with a stun ray, you ain't gonna have the streanth to stand for much longer, and you'll be out if they fire a second time.

Another wild tangent from this (though not altogether separate), what do you think would happen if a Vulcan mind-melded with a jedi. We know that almost all other telepathic lifeforms have very little resistance to a mind-meld, and jedi telepathy seems rather limited compared to what we have seen in star trek.

I just had a picture of Kohlinar-Jedi.

[Zyrious]

the downside to a wide beam phaser setting is lower power hits a target.... kind of like the difference between a shotgun with birdshot vs a slug. the birdshot might hit more targets or more areas of a target but the slug deals more damage.

now the lightsaber and jedi are definately turning in Deus Ex Machina

How is a Jedi a plot device? Jedi are the entire plot in the first place. I think you are misunderstanding what a Deus Ex Machina is. As for it being limited to stun - Well then you are going to have some severe limitions, especially if the jedi stick to their speed, reflexes, and force powers, in which they could dispatch any security officers long before they got a second chance. But this argument wasnt Jedi vs Phasers, it was a Lightsaber vs phasers.

[Zyrious]

As fireraven said, power goes down with Wide beam. If I remember correctly, its limited to stun, which arguably wouldn't stun a jedi, but thats not the point. Get 3-5 guys hitting you with a stun ray, you ain't gonna have the streanth to stand for much longer, and you'll be out if they fire a second time.

Another wild tangent from this (though not altogether separate), what do you think would happen if a Vulcan mind-melded with a jedi. We know that almost all other telepathic lifeforms have very little resistance to a mind-meld, and jedi telepathy seems rather limited compared to what we have seen in star trek.

I just had a picture of Kohlinar-Jedi.

That might be quite interesting. I want to see that. However, it also depends on the Jedi. Jedi have various forms and strengths in mental capacity, such as seeing into the future, reading minds and feeling emotions across vast stretches of space and even mind control (mind trick). But i dont think in any way that suggests some kind of immunity to a mind meld. But i imagine, the meld may have more unique results than seen with weaker minds

[Traveller]

see one problem with people going on about Jedi,thought this was sposed to be set during Empire Stikes back. There are only 2 jedi and they are Vader and the emperor,dnt think Starfleet have to much to worry bout with just 2.

[Zyrious]

see one problem with people going on about Jedi,thought this was sposed to be set during Empire Stikes back. There are only 2 jedi and they are Vader and the emperor,dnt think Starfleet have to much to worry bout with just 2.

True, i got sidetracked. However vader is known to personally attend major battles, and his force powers are quite capable, as seen in force unleashed (which is g-level canon). But other than that, yeah, battles will mainly be taking place between the two standing armies/navies rather than with a jedi/sith.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Widebeam can be set to kill (Tuvok did so in one Voyager episode, and held the entire bridge hostage), but it makes sense that it would have limitations. First of all, is the obvious energy dilution problem. If a phaser beam puts out 100 watts in a narrow beam, 100 joules of energy will be applied to a very narrow space every second. However, if the beam fires in a wide fan, or especially a cone, the same amount of energy will be delivered to a much wider area (like hitting a nail with a hammer point side down, then hitting another nail with the point side up - the same amount of energy is applied, by the point-side-down nail penetrates much further, because the energy is concentrated in a smaller area). In a fan capable of spanning the breadth of a room, the beam's energy per area could potentially be reduced by a factor of millions; even more with a wide cone. To still have the same stunning and kill effects, a phaser would have to put out a LOT more energy in a single blast, potentially giving the phaser a very limited number of shots on wide-beam. The same setting would also require far more energy flowing through the phaser's systems, which could create potentials for catastrophic equipment failure, or require a significant delay time between firing. The way the TNG TM describes how a hand phaser works would fit well with the latter, essentially describing a bottleneck in the power cell's return cuircit or some such, that can be overloaded catastrophically. This puts a limit on a hand phaser's rate-of-fire for high-energy blasts, especially the extreme high-energy blast that would come from a wide-beam phaser shot on kill setting. This would make it far less effective against targets that aren't massed or exposed from cover. Wide-beam would be good for clearing a room when you have the advantage of surprise, but in any kind of engagement, it would have limited functionality.

[Traveller]

One other thing I just thought of,
Arent the laser in SW maned weapons i.e in turret mounts?
Phasers have and advantage over this wudnt they?
Also think federation wud just stand back and throw photons at fleet,dnt think they can be shot down can they?

[djnattyd]

a lightscaper cuts through anthing so no feeration bulkhead door could withstand it.

Lightsabers can't cut through anything made of Cortosis Weave.

[Zyrious]

Lightsabers can't cut through anything made of Cortosis Weave.

Costosis is lightsaber resistant, not lightsaber proof. And it's a very rare mineral at the time of ESB.

[Catamount]

Lightsabers cannot "cut through anything [or everything]". They're a potent cutting tool and probably have a lot of energy to work with, but the denser the material the longer it's going to take to cut through it until eventually you're bound to hit something so dense (like carbon neutronium) that your cutting power would be absolutely negligible. It's true the average Starfleet bulkhead is not constructed of anything that would resist a lightsaber particularly well, but so what? Any Star Trek weapon can cut through those bulkheads as well. In fact, the phaser would probably be more effective due to the nature of the weapon. The only practical thing that would resist phaser and lightsaber alike would be a shielded wall of some sort. It would continually receive power to absorb the lightsaber or other weapon and so no matter how long you tried to cut your way past it you'd make no progress. Starships force fields would probably do just fine to contain a lightsaber given their power source. It takes a very specialized device to disrupt one of those with only the power contained by a handheld device.

[vp21ct]

see one problem with people going on about Jedi,thought this was sposed to be set during Empire Stikes back. There are only 2 jedi and they are Vader and the emperor,dnt think Starfleet have to much to worry bout with just 2.

actually, according to the force unleashed (which I think we established as G-level Cannon) there are several jedi still ALIVE, they just aren't active. We also are currently unaware as to the fate of Asaj Ventress, nor do we know if there are other dark jedi that are employed by the CIS who may have survived the purge.

So it remains as a possibility.

On a side note, I'm gonna try and find a photo of a Vulcan in ceramonial robes (Spok or Tuvok if possible) and photoshop in a lightsaber :cool:

[fireraven]

How is a Jedi a plot device? Jedi are the entire plot in the first place. I think you are misunderstanding what a Deus Ex Machina is. As for it being limited to stun - Well then you are going to have some severe limitions, especially if the jedi stick to their speed, reflexes, and force powers, in which they could dispatch any security officers long before they got a second chance. But this argument wasnt Jedi vs Phasers, it was a Lightsaber vs phasers.

Because no matter what happens anymore the Jedi seem to suddenly possess whatever power is needed to stop something... the force can tame strange alien beasts in an arena, allow them to subtely control not just the direction of a lightsaber but also turn it on to cut Darth Maul in half...the force is all powerful and can create black holes and throw cores of stars yet can't find hidden babies or Rebels. The Emperor is supposedly stronger then Vader yet he can grab him and throw him over a railing despite being hit by electricity which causes muscles to contract...only the Force can cause the Death Star to explode, magically launching a message pod out of a black hole... etc etc

[starshipcaptain]

well we agrue about St and Sw how about star trek vs Stargate.

on a related note> what about how hight a jidi can jump sure a kilignon can jump that high so am i right

[osena]

As fireraven said, power goes down with Wide beam. If I remember correctly, its limited to stun, which arguably wouldn't stun a jedi, but thats not the point. Get 3-5 guys hitting you with a stun ray, you ain't gonna have the streanth to stand for much longer, and you'll be out if they fire a second time.

Another wild tangent from this (though not altogether separate), what do you think would happen if a Vulcan mind-melded with a jedi. We know that almost all other telepathic lifeforms have very little resistance to a mind-meld, and jedi telepathy seems rather limited compared to what we have seen in star trek.

I just had a picture of Kohlinar-Jedi.

use many forms of combat some of there lightsaber forms are ment to block laser fire blaster blots Form III: Soresu obi-wans lightsaber style then there was Form V: Shien used by Anakin Skywalker those forms were well suited for blasters fire