Star Trek vs Star Wars

[ieldanth]

I always find SW vs ST debates based on what someone put in a tech manual to be hilarious. Someone might have mentioned this already, since I am a latecomer here, but you have to laugh at people who are earnestly debating based on numbers someone else pulled out of their behind. :D

[Ilithi_Dragon]

I always find SW vs ST debates based on what someone put in a tech manual to be hilarious. Someone might have mentioned this already, since I am a latecomer here, but you have to laugh at people who are earnestly debating based on numbers someone else pulled out of their behind. :D

Name something you like to talk about, I'm sure we can make it sound even more ridiculous without much effort. } : = 8 )

It's a topic we enjoy discussing and debating. If you have a problem with that, or think it's ridiculous, stupid, pathetic, or whatever, we don't care. It's a fun topic for us, and that's all that really matters. So unless you are going to contribute more than just making fun of us for discussing a topic we happen to find of interest, go away please. Thanks. } : = 8 )

[Zyrious]

Name something you like to talk about, I'm sure we can make it sound even more ridiculous without much effort. } : = 8 )

It's a topic we enjoy discussing and debating. If you have a problem with that, or think it's ridiculous, stupid, pathetic, or whatever, we don't care. It's a fun topic for us, and that's all that really matters. So unless you are going to contribute more than just making fun of us for discussing a topic we happen to find of interest, go away please. Thanks. } : = 8 )

Lunch Meat sandwhich's? I havent seen any in Star Wars, puts them at a huge disadvantage in the culinary department.

[TheWon]

Name something you like to talk about, I'm sure we can make it sound even more ridiculous without much effort. } : = 8 )

It's a topic we enjoy discussing and debating. If you have a problem with that, or think it's ridiculous, stupid, pathetic, or whatever, we don't care. It's a fun topic for us, and that's all that really matters. So unless you are going to contribute more than just making fun of us for discussing a topic we happen to find of interest, go away please. Thanks. } : = 8 )



Here is another reason Star Trek Wins over Wars. Women! Your telling me in a galaxy far away. There are only 3 women. Anakin's mom, Padme, and Leia. All but 1is dead! That's why the Empire is so angry. There are suffering from Blue Balls! LOL

No wander there are so many protocol droids LOL

[Zyrious]

Here is another reason Star Trek Wins over Wars. Women! Your telling me in a galaxy far away. There are only 3 women. Anakin's mom, Padme, and Leia. All but 1is dead! That's why the Empire is so angry. There are suffering from Blue Balls! LOL

No wander there are so many protocol droids LOL

Twi'lek Slaves. 'nuff said.

[TheWon]

Twi'lek Slaves. 'nuff said.


Some females that get some screen time!
Cloud City no women on screen, Hoth no women, the rebel base, and the Death Star.
The only other place you see women is Jabba's Palace, and would you really want to do a girl from there?

As they said in the Sci Fi Classic Ice Pirates. Space Herpes!!!! LOL

In Trek there is always some random Skirt walking by, Oh Ya Giggity giggity

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Oh Ya Giggity giggity

You, sir, need to be put down for the good of your species.

[Himser]

Perhaps I am not sticking strickly to the thread but I'd rather PLAY a Trek MMO over SW because the Force/Jedi/Sith thing causes too many balancing issues game-wise.


depends id rather play a space SW game then a ST game because it is 95% action oreintated where STO will have many moments that are not action oreintated. that being said .. anytime in a game you can be sith, bouthy hunter or a jedi .. you egt a crappy game. yopu need something like star wars tie fighter ( yes i know old .. but still the BEST space game i have ever played) recreate a game like that .. mo sith , no jedi, just big ships and fast figheters and they would have something .. a ST game like that would also work well .. none of the boring stuff about ST in it lol

[JadeEngima]

depends id rather play a space SW game then a ST game because it is 95% action oreintated where STO will have many moments that are not action oreintated. that being said .. anytime in a game you can be sith, bouthy hunter or a jedi .. you egt a crappy game. yopu need something like star wars tie fighter ( yes i know old .. but still the BEST space game i have ever played) recreate a game like that .. mo sith , no jedi, just big ships and fast figheters and they would have something .. a ST game like that would also work well .. none of the boring stuff about ST in it lol

Hang on one sec, the universal translator is having a hiccup fit...

[vanlore]

It was not my intention to cause offense, and my hurried posting resulted in the impression of a harsher tone than I intended. My intention was to demonstrate how such posts appear, especially with the less careful attention to grammar, spelling, etc. used in those initial posts (which, given the quality of your most recent posts, leads me to suspect that your initial posts were made as quickly as my previous posts).

Ah I see , Well no harm done. After all we're not Betazoids... Are we Oo?

I've been involved in the ST vs SW debates for several years, mostly on the periphery, and I've seen a LOT of "lawl time travel! pwndjoonoob!" types, and they're just as annoying as the "lawl Death Star! pwndjoonoob!" types. I've rarely seen someone seriously employ the concept with the maturity and intelligence you have demonstrated in your arguments, and that colored my initial responses.

Well thank you very much for the complement. I also enjoy reading your posts and I hope you keep posting. Also I apologize if I have made you feel unwelcome, on the contrary I enjoy seeing you debate with people. I find your logic too be refreshing and seeing you relentlessly correct and educate Pro Wars fans or illogical people gives me a sense of revenge on people who won't reason. :rolleyes:


To be honest, this thread has maintained a greater degree of openmindedness than many other threads I've been in (and I'm sure many of the pro-Wars debaters would argue that it is YOU who will not listen to reason } ; = 8 ) ), and I'm still hopeful that reasoned arguments and evidence (the latter of which I haven't had as much time to compile and present as I would like). I know what you mean about debators (both pro-Trek and pro-Wars) refusing to acknowledge reason and stubbornly insisting that they're right based on one scrap of evidence, despite a mountain of contradicting examples and evidence, so I can definitely understand your feelings on the matter.

I am glad that you empathise with me on the subject. I guess I just wanted too take the easy way out of convincing people with convictions too favor reason. But the easy way out is not always the most fun :D

Thank you. } : = 8 )

Your Welcome

And I conceed the matter to you, since you obviously have done your homework and your evidence can't be refuted.

Thank you again. Yes my logic is infallible and soon the world will be mine MUHAHAHAAH!!! :rolleyes:

Right after I master grammar :p

There are still discrepencies in the behavior towards time travel on many other occasions, though, leaving one to wonder why, if the Federation had reliable (even if risky) means of time travel in the mid-23rd Century, it wasn't relatively common place by the 24th Century, or why round-about ways were used to travel through time (such as in "Trials and Tribble-ations"), when even mid-23rd Century warp drive could send someone through time.

This is interesting and I will investigate the matter when time permits.

An incorrect interpretation of your posts, then (see my comments on "lawl Time Travel" above).

Well that explains a few things. Now that we are on the same page lets continue correcting the Pro Wars fans.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Ah I see , Well no harm done. After all we're not Betazoids... Are we Oo?

Last time I checked, I still had wings and scales, so we should be good. } ; = 8 )



Well thank you very much for the complement. I also enjoy reading your posts and I hope you keep posting. Also I apologize if I have made you feel unwelcome, on the contrary I enjoy seeing you debate with people. I find your logic too be refreshing and seeing you relentlessly correct and educate Pro Wars fans or illogical people gives me a sense of revenge on people who won't reason. :rolleyes:


I am glad that you empathise with me on the subject. I guess I just wanted too take the easy way out of convincing people with convictions too favor reason. But the easy way out is not always the most fun :D

I'll have to send you my notes on how I think Trek vs Wars would go down. Not all of it is applicable to this debate, because a lot is based on extrapolation of canon and not all presented as hard figures (or visual effects we can determine hard figures from), but I find it interesting, anyway.



Thank you again. Yes my logic is infallible and soon the world will be mine MUHAHAHAAH!!! :rolleyes:

Right after I master grammar :p

>.> I can let you pretend you're ruling the world... } ; = 8 P



when time permits.

lol } X = 8 D


Well that explains a few things. Now that we are on the same page lets continue correcting the Pro Wars fans.

As a good friend of mine would say, the appropriate Klingon statement would involve letting the proverbial dogs of the proverbial war slip their equally proverbial leashes. } : = 8 )

[Zyrious]

I'm too tired to argue after so many pages...It seems both sides have advantages, and inconsistencies within the canon of both, after i've gone over it for a couple days now. Trek's biggest thing is technobabble, we get a lot of inconsistent figures thrown out (And, a case of "What happens on screen doesnt match what they say" type thing).

With star wars, we get little data. 100% of our values are based off visual analysis and subtle clues in novelization and tech slips from the movies (which are very few and far between).

However, as a fan of both, i'll let you know why i chose to side with Wars. With my unique system of logic, i can not for the life of me ever accept that a civilization that has been space-faring for 300 years, and spans a quarter of its quadrant and several hundred worlds, could ever hope to match up to the logistics and power of a civilization that has been space-faring for a thousand generations (25-30,000 years depending on which definition you use) and spans the entire galaxy (Though it may be smaller, that's still a lot. However, it doesnt seem that much smaller than the milky way, when compared to its satellite galaxies).

but then, we run across one of the fundamental problems - The very physics of the universe are different in the two galaxies. Things possible in Star Trek are impossible in Star Wars, and vice-versa.

Still, that doesnt make the debate any less fun, however. But i think it would be ignorant for any person to be capable of claiming that in the end they are the "Winner", because at the end of the day, we have too few specs to work with, and the physics of the universe differ too greatly, for it to ever be a truly "Apples to Apples" comparison. I still think SW wins though *snicker*.

[TheWon]

This is just being silly ,but Trek wins due to population growth. More Women! LOL I had to do it. This is a fun discussion right. No need to be serious all the time. Unless you all are Vulcans and Droids!

[Ilithi_Dragon]

However, as a fan of both, i'll let you know why i chose to side with Wars. With my unique system of logic, i can not for the life of me ever accept that a civilization that has been space-faring for 300 years, and spans a quarter of its quadrant and several hundred worlds, could ever hope to match up to the logistics and power of a civilization that has been space-faring for a thousand generations (25-30,000 years depending on which definition you use) and spans the entire galaxy (Though it may be smaller, that's still a lot. However, it doesnt seem that much smaller than the milky way, when compared to its satellite galaxies).

I would like to note a couple things in response to this

1. The Federation, as a star nation, has existed for roughly 220 years, but is composed of member races that have been space-faring for several hundred years (Vulcans had well-established warp capabilities as early as the early 1900s, with some indications that they had been warp capable for several hundred years prior to the founding of the Federation)

2. It has not been conclusively established that the Galactic Republic is 25,000+ years old (and it should be noted that the Jedi Order is only 25,000 years old around the time of the Clone Wars, with the direct indication that it had been around long before the Republic), and there is evidence that the Galactic Republic may only be a thousand years old

3. The Federation spanned over a thousand worlds in the mid-2200s, and appears to have expanded greatly by the mid-2300s, suggesting several thousand worlds within the Federation, not several hundred

4. This is compared to the million worlds under the control of the Empire, with at least 10,000 worlds inhabited by a population worth noting (i.e. a few dozen inhabitants isn't worth noting). Depending on how many more inhabited worlds than 10,000 the Empire has, their logistics and territorial base may or may not be drastically superior to the Federation

5. The presence of smaller neighboring galaxies does not necessarily indicate that the SW galaxy is comparable in size to the Milky Way, as the SW galaxy could simply be a larger dwarf galaxy (around 16,000 ly in diameter) with smaller neighboring dwarf galaxies (which can be as small as 200 lightyears in diameter, in the case of Ultra Compact Dwarfs).

EDIT:
5a. In fact, the name of the neighboring dwarf galaxy, Rishi Maze, could suggest that it is an Ultra Compact Dwarf or similar galactic structure, as an ultra-dense collection of stars could create a maze-like hazard for interstellar travel.

[Noonien]

Heh, the Federation would definately lose the battle of attrition. They simply don't have the resources for a, dare I say, invasion of that scale. Empire though? Hell, that's their afternoon special. Not that it matters because the Empire definately aren't stupid (their leaders at least. Well, one of them.) and once they figure out they're out-gunned, they'll just go ahead and throw a bunch of stormtroopers at them and get to work on that problem.

No way could they (the Empire) win an all out, one civilization walks away battle. But because of the Federation's mentality and morals, not to mention the Empire's almost unmatched ability to make allies and then screw them over, they'd (The Fed's) almost surely lose a galactic-to-galactic battle. The Empire would meet the Romulans, fall in love, spoon eachother, trade technology and secrets. We then find out that, surprise surprise, these Romulans are VERY strong with the dark side of the force. Next stage, in rolls the newly designed Super Federation Destroyer, fitted with a Romulan cloak, shields, transporter and sensor technology, coupled with hundreds of thousands of able Stormtroopers per deck. Also how many phaser banks does the Enterprise have? Multiply it by a factor of 10, and then 10 again, and then stop there because that's enough of an estimate to blow away anything.

Keeping in mind that the Empire can MASS PRODUCE any single thing the Romulans throw at them. If the Empire is anything, it's a war machine. Not oiled well, but well enough.

[Zyrious]

I would like to note a couple things in response to this

1. The Federation, as a star nation, has existed for roughly 220 years, but is composed of member races that have been space-faring for several hundred years (Vulcans had well-established warp capabilities as early as the early 1900s, with some indications that they had been warp capable for several hundred years prior to the founding of the Federation)

2. It has not been conclusively established that the Galactic Republic is 25,000+ years old (and it should be noted that the Jedi Order is only 25,000 years old around the time of the Clone Wars, with the direct indication that it had been around long before the Republic), and there is evidence that the Galactic Republic may only be a thousand years old

3. The Federation spanned over a thousand worlds in the mid-2200s, and appears to have expanded greatly by the mid-2300s, suggesting several thousand worlds within the Federation, not several hundred

4. This is compared to the million worlds under the control of the Empire, with at least 10,000 worlds inhabited by a population worth noting (i.e. a few dozen inhabitants isn't worth noting). Depending on how many more inhabited worlds than 10,000 the Empire has, their logistics and territorial base may or may not be drastically superior to the Federation

5. The presence of smaller neighboring galaxies does not necessarily indicate that the SW galaxy is comparable in size to the Milky Way, as the SW galaxy could simply be a larger dwarf galaxy (around 16,000 ly in diameter) with smaller neighboring dwarf galaxies (which can be as small as 200 lightyears in diameter, in the case of Ultra Compact Dwarfs).

EDIT:
5a. In fact, the name of the neighboring dwarf galaxy, Rishi Maze, could suggest that it is an Ultra Compact Dwarf or similar galactic structure, as an ultra-dense collection of stars could create a maze-like hazard for interstellar travel.

You dont give up, do you? Also, as stated earlier, Ben Kenobi clearly dated the republic when he said "Jedi Knights were keepers of peace and justice *in* the Old Republic for over 1000 generations" (Off the top of my head, actual quote a coupe pages back).

[RedPhoenix32]

I think the rebellion would just join the Federation and destroy the Empire. Then would pass off the jedi as telekinetics.

[TheWon]

I'm really confused now. What are we comparing excatly. Both overall universes or indivduals parts. Bringing up the Jedi really has no point. If we are just using the movies as a example. At the end of Return there is only 1. No matter how many there were it really doesn't matter.

Why don't you guys go through each individual part and compare them.

Good Guys
Rebels vs Federation
BadGuy
Empire vs Star Trek Villians
If you do it that way. It would seems that Star Trek Wins. Just because of the information we have of their Canon Universe.

The Rebel Alliance doesn't have the resources of the Federation. Could the Empire handle a all out assault from the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Dominion, and Borg!

It seems like everyone keep changing the match ups to get the odds in their favor. If the Empire can defeat the Federation. Would the Rebels survive against Trek Villians.

[Himser]

if the federation has most of those plaents in it that have waht 6000 people max ussaly 200 then theres only 4 or 5 planets worth oting in federation

im confident the rebels will survive vs anyone .. they may not win but survive yes.. R emember they are the people who lived from any genocides the empire probilly casued ..

[Admiral.of.Starfleet]

Heh, the Federation would definately lose the battle of attrition. They simply don't have the resources for a, dare I say, invasion of that scale. Empire though? Hell, that's their afternoon special. Not that it matters because the Empire definately aren't stupid (their leaders at least. Well, one of them.) and once they figure out they're out-gunned, they'll just go ahead and throw a bunch of stormtroopers at them and get to work on that problem.

No way could they (the Empire) win an all out, one civilization walks away battle. But because of the Federation's mentality and morals, not to mention the Empire's almost unmatched ability to make allies and then screw them over, they'd (The Fed's) almost surely lose a galactic-to-galactic battle. The Empire would meet the Romulans, fall in love, spoon eachother, trade technology and secrets. We then find out that, surprise surprise, these Romulans are VERY strong with the dark side of the force. Next stage, in rolls the newly designed Super Federation Destroyer, fitted with a Romulan cloak, shields, transporter and sensor technology, coupled with hundreds of thousands of able Stormtroopers per deck. Also how many phaser banks does the Enterprise have? Multiply it by a factor of 10, and then 10 again, and then stop there because that's enough of an estimate to blow away anything.

Keeping in mind that the Empire can MASS PRODUCE any single thing the Romulans throw at them. If the Empire is anything, it's a war machine. Not oiled well, but well enough.

The romulans could always be tricked into fighting the empire like they were into fighting the Dominion. If it came down to factions, the Federation would probably restart the alliance used in the dominion war not to mention the Rebels would help the Feds. The empire might find help from the dominion but that is doubtful. The overwhelming force of the United powers of the ST universe with the help of the Rebels would crush the empire. Imagine the rebel fleet bolstered by the Federation, Romulans, and Klingons attacking at the battle of Endor.:D

[starshipcaptain]

you know one thing dos not make scence to me. in ST cloning is difficult because they decay but in SW they cloned that one man over a trillion times

[Himser]

you know one thing dos not make scence to me. in ST cloning is difficult because they decay but in SW they cloned that one man over a trillion times

yes .. but it took 10 years for those guys to be equivlent to 20 .. in ST the jehmadar are what 3 days when they are ready .. maby thats why they decay less .. takes a lot longer

[Cyberwolfman]

I knew I'd upset someone but it had to be said

[Admiral.of.Starfleet]

I knew I'd upset someone but it had to be said

Attacking credibility is a lawyer tactic...

[vp21ct]

Tactics and Technology aside, Star Trek has always meant more to me than Star Wars.

To me, Star Trek is not about being a nerd (not directly anyway), its not about future technology. Its not even about space exploration. To quote Q "That.....is the Exploration that awaits you. Not mapping stars and sudying nebulae.......but charting the unknown posibilities.......of Existence". The unending journey for knoweledge, and for a better tomarrow, wheather among the stars, or among the shadows of our dreams.

Star Wars is about the unending struggle of good and evil, and the reality that there must always be balance. Look you at the sith, whenever there are jedi, there are sith. With out one or the other, the galaxy falls into stagnation. And it has just as often been a sith who brings balance to the force, as it has been a jedi.


While both have profound meanings, I have always fealt that Star Trek is more relevant to our time. And that is why, IMHO, Star Trek is better than Star Wars, and has commanded my loyalty since I was but a youngling


Live Long and Prosper




S'ven

[Himser]

My goodness! I can’t read any more posts, all the hordes of misspelled words are driving me mad!

Shure, teh, maby, whould, cloack, bujet, shilds, treck, acculy, battels, sciantific, equil, millatarys, defently, smuggaler, smuggilers, exept, simmiler, accersy, craked, shuddles, encouunters, damed, circuls, impereal, withoit, brgining, shiops, juudging, wepons, centery, desidingly, mutch, dammage.

I'm sorry to say most of those came from the SW supporters. Well, maybe I'm not so sorry to say.

Maybe that's why most of the people that actually are turning science fiction into science fact are Star Trek fans, not Star Wars fans. I could delve further into that but I'd catch all kinds of holy hell. I did say most, not all.

Star Wars fans hardly ever have a convincing arguement whilst Star Trek fans usually do.
Onca again no absolutes here....only a Sith reasons in absolutes, lol.

(Although it sure seems like some people are typing while downing a few pints of Absolute...vodka that is.)

Hey look! An Andorian with a third antennae! :confused:


most of them misspelling g is my bad typing and crappy keyboard that misses letters.

also whats with the "Onca" and he misspelled "arguement" if your gonna complain about spelling make sure you get yours right

i as well am offended .. we are here thus we like star trek .. we are trekkies just we are pro star wars when it comes to ST vs SW debates due to our beliefs and analysis ..

[Richman12]

yeah thier is a lot of miss spelling makes my eyes hurt as well.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Attacking credibility is a lawyer tactic...

KILL ALL LAWYERS!!!

Sorry, couldn't resist. } ; = 8 )

Anyway, had a big family reunion thingy this weekend, just got home, and have several things to take care of before I can get back to this (might be tomorrow sometime). Will post on-topic when I can, though.


EDIT: Hope everyone in the U.S. is enjoying their Labor Day weekend.

[starshipcaptain]

lightcapers VS phasers
what your opinon

[Ilithi_Dragon]

lightcapers VS phasers
what your opinon

Phasers, hands down. Three reasons:

1. We've never seen a lightsaber deflect a continuous beam

2. We don't even know if a lightsaber can deflect a phaser beam

3. Even if 1 and 2 are negated, the wide beam phaser ends it all. Block a 3-meter cone or a fan of phaser energy that spans the entire room. I dare you.

[Admiral.of.Starfleet]

lightcapers VS phasers
what your opinon

Phasers FTW!

Phasers fire continuous beams move it slightly away from the lightsaber deflecting it and youve got a toast jedi/sith.

[Zyrious]

lightcapers VS phasers
what your opinon

This one's better. Darth Vader VS Phasers. Darth Vader armor > Phasers. har har.

[Arcturus]

A Lightsaber is just a flow of charged particles, forget wide beam phaser all I need is a magnetic field. Little rare earth magnet works. Blocks the flow.

[Downzy]

Phasers FTW!

Phasers fire continuous beams move it slightly away from the lightsaber deflecting it and youve got a toast jedi/sith.


your fogeting one thing jedis are like realy fast reflex wise and they can use "Force" sp when u move the phaser slightly aside the lightsaber the jedi moves out the way and force push you away, maybe add alittle choke in there and then chop you in half.

as for troop battles i think it would be rather equal apart from the fact that imperial troops are born and raised soldiers as you see in EP2, and if you watch the battle at the start of EP3 the star wars ships have alot more fire power.

Feel free to correct anything i just sead:D

[ToadMonkey]

Hummmm a Jedi vs Data.

[ToadMonkey]

Star Wars is........ Cops and Robbers
Star trek is.......... Wagon Train to the Stars

[vp21ct]

Star Wars is........ Cops and Robbers
Star trek is.......... Wagon Train to the Stars

a summary of what i said but yes

[Ilithi_Dragon]

your fogeting one thing jedis are like realy fast reflex wise and they can use "Force" sp when u move the phaser slightly aside the lightsaber the jedi moves out the way and force push you away, maybe add alittle choke in there and then chop you in half.

That still doesn't account for the fact that we don't even know if lightsabers can deflect a phaser beam. Also, no matter how fast their reflexes are, they can't block a phaser set on widebeam.


as for troop battles i think it would be rather equal apart from the fact that imperial troops are born and raised soldiers as you see in EP2, and if you watch the battle at the start of EP3 the star wars ships have alot more fire power.

And the mass charge tactics the clone troopers demonstrated during the Clone Wars would be suicide against even a handful of entrenched personnel equipped with phasers. Phasers have demonstrated ranges up to several hundred meters, with the potential for ranges as far as 1.4 kilometers, in the mid-2200s (TOS "Arena"), and would logically have comparable or superior ranges in TNG. Charging across an open field against weapons with the demonstrated wide-beam and high-yield output (as much as the equivalent of 3.8 tons of TNT, based on vaporization of a low estimate of melting (not vaporizing) 1 cubic meter of granite in TNG "Chain of Command", and Riker's statement that his phaser on maximum setting could destroy half the building he was in (which was likely of considerable size)). The massed charge tactics of the clone troopers are out-dated even by today's standards, since machinegun fire would decimate any such charge over anything but a short distance (and demonstrated that capability more than once in the early days of automatic weaponry).

Given that the Republic hasn't seen war since its founding (a time span of at least 1,000 years, and up to 30,000 years), a limited understanding of effective tactics is understandable, given the lack of recent experience with the concept. An examination of the U.S. sniper program (and the sniper programs of other major powers) over the last 150 years can demonstrate how easily tactics and strategies can be forgotten when war is not an eminent concern.

By comparison, the Federation has much more recent experience in warfare, both from its members prior to joining (including the core alliance that was founded during a major war just before forming the Federation), and in the various wars and cold wars it participated in over its history, especially after the major conflict of the Dominion War.

Starfleet ground combat forces would likely be well equipped for ground engagements (we've seen examples of light armor employed by Starfleet ground forces during the brief Klingon-Federation war just prior to the Dominion War, as well as armored troopers in ST:VI, and references to various troop carriers and other ground combat equipment have been made - the troopers defending the captured Dominion comm. array on AR-558 were poorly equipped, under-manned, and in desperate need of relief and resupply, not a prime example of Starfleet ground combat forces), and any such assault by Imperial troops (with similar mass-charge tactics) would likely be easily dealt with by a relatively small contingent of entrenched Starfleet troopers. The massed charge of mobile armor would likely present a more difficult challenge, but hand phasers have demonstrated superior energy yields than the main guns on the 'AT-ST' walkers, and larger infantry weapons have been seen deployed (from phaser rifles to shoulder-fired pulse cannons), and the deployment of photon grenades would level the playing field even further. And that's just a force of Starfleet infantry, not considering any armored fighting vehicles Starfleet may have in service.

[Downzy]

well all we need now is some star wars exspert to top that coz i dont have enought IQ, and i think star trek has an advantage as it is set in the future and star wars is "A long time ago" maybe if we saw star wars how it is during star trek years it might be different...but whos got an imagination that good ey?

[Omega1]

Ah the age old question, Star Trek is much better, in everyway, i have my reasons but i can't be bothered to list them:p

[Noonien]

That still doesn't account for the fact that we don't even know if lightsabers can deflect a phaser beam. Also, no matter how fast their reflexes are, they can't block a phaser set on widebeam.

I'll take a wide-beam stab and say it doesn't matter for a few reasons. Firstly starfleet and the Jedi would never realistically fight eachother. Secondly a Jedi would never openly confront an enemy with a weapon not guaranteed to DEFEND himself with. Thirdly the force > every ground troop the Federation will ever have.

And the mass charge tactics the clone troopers demonstrated during the Clone Wars would be suicide against even a handful of entrenched personnel equipped with phasers. Phasers have demonstrated ranges up to several hundred meters, with the potential for ranges as far as 1.4 kilometers, in the mid-2200s (TOS "Arena"), and would logically have comparable or superior ranges in TNG. Charging across an open field against weapons with the demonstrated wide-beam and high-yield output (as much as the equivalent of 3.8 tons of TNT, based on vaporization of a low estimate of melting (not vaporizing) 1 cubic meter of granite in TNG "Chain of Command", and Riker's statement that his phaser on maximum setting could destroy half the building he was in (which was likely of considerable size)). The massed charge tactics of the clone troopers are out-dated even by today's standards, since machinegun fire would decimate any such charge over anything but a short distance (and demonstrated that capability more than once in the early days of automatic weaponry).

Given that the Republic hasn't seen war since its founding (a time span of at least 1,000 years, and up to 30,000 years), a limited understanding of effective tactics is understandable, given the lack of recent experience with the concept. An examination of the U.S. sniper program (and the sniper programs of other major powers) over the last 150 years can demonstrate how easily tactics and strategies can be forgotten when war is not an eminent concern.

By comparison, the Federation has much more recent experience in warfare, both from its members prior to joining (including the core alliance that was founded during a major war just before forming the Federation), and in the various wars and cold wars it participated in over its history, especially after the major conflict of the Dominion War.

Starfleet ground combat forces would likely be well equipped for ground engagements (we've seen examples of light armor employed by Starfleet ground forces during the brief Klingon-Federation war just prior to the Dominion War, as well as armored troopers in ST:VI, and references to various troop carriers and other ground combat equipment have been made - the troopers defending the captured Dominion comm. array on AR-558 were poorly equipped, under-manned, and in desperate need of relief and resupply, not a prime example of Starfleet ground combat forces), and any such assault by Imperial troops (with similar mass-charge tactics) would likely be easily dealt with by a relatively small contingent of entrenched Starfleet troopers. The massed charge of mobile armor would likely present a more difficult challenge, but hand phasers have demonstrated superior energy yields than the main guns on the 'AT-ST' walkers, and larger infantry weapons have been seen deployed (from phaser rifles to shoulder-fired pulse cannons), and the deployment of photon grenades would level the playing field even further. And that's just a force of Starfleet infantry, not considering any armored fighting vehicles Starfleet may have in service.

If there's one thing that gives Star Wars ground troopers a chance against superior weaponry, tactics and resourcefulness, it's brute force. I've already given my reasons why Star Trek would win against Star Wars, but on a smaller, planetary scale, I'd be hard-pressed to give it to the Federation.

First of all, lay down the trump card here, which is close-combat. Star Wars has far superior close-combat forces, more powerful than any other sci-fi franchise ever except for Warhammer40k which would rip both of these universes apart, I might add. Nevermind personal shields and cloaks, which some could argue aren't 100% canon because they were only really seen or mentioned in various video games, you've got your Empire Special Forces like Phase* Dark Troopers, cyborgs fitted with the very best technology of the time and sometimes empowered by the dark side of the force, would easily neutralize Federation ground forces. Don't get me wrong, an open-field conflict between Stormtroopers and Federation officers would be suicide, but on a planetary scale with no fleet's or reinforcements aside from what's at the start of the battle, I'd be lying if I said I thought Star Trek had a good chance. Hell, a dozen Phase 2 Dark Troopers would infiltrate and overwhelm almost any fortified entrenched, isolated position, be it foxhole, city or island, easily. The rule of unknown being noteable here, no matter how well armed the Federation is, they're just a bunch of smart aliens/humans with good gear, and I can rightly assume they would have no idea what a Dark Trooper was or what it's capabilities were before it was too late.

The Federation would have 2 choices. Go out and fight an open, war-like conflict with stormtroopers, who would get off a wall of spam akin to a persian arrow fall on 300 and kill a good chunk of them, or take up a closed defensive position and set phasers to wide-beam. Considering that Federation officers aren't stormtroopers, ie. they care how many of them die and such, the latter is most likely. In comes the Dark Trooper inflitration force backed by the storm, scout and machine trooper corps (to keep the Federation attention elsewhere, of course) and their leaders are dead in maybe an hour. Base goes blackout in 2. Base gets overrun in 2 and a half.

Sure the Empire are all faceless mooks, aside from the big bosses. Dark Troopers are big bosses, and how the Federation counters them, which I think they can't and won't, is the deciding factor of any ground-war.

[starshipcaptain]

Phasers, hands down. Three reasons:

1. We've never seen a lightsaber deflect a continuous beam

2. We don't even know if a lightsaber can deflect a phaser beam

3. Even if 1 and 2 are negated, the wide beam phaser ends it all. Block a 3-meter cone or a fan of phaser energy that spans the entire room. I dare you.

if a lightsaber can deflet a single beam you might be able to bend the beam to fire back on it self

[Ilithi_Dragon]

I'll take a wide-beam stab and say it doesn't matter for a few reasons. Firstly starfleet and the Jedi would never realistically fight eachother. Secondly a Jedi would never openly confront an enemy with a weapon not guaranteed to DEFEND himself with. Thirdly the force > every ground troop the Federation will ever have.

Oh, I agree that Starfleet and the Jedi would be unlikely to fight each other, but that doesn't account for the Sith.

On your third point - What about Order 66? If the Force was so powerful, the Jedi should have been able to handle something like that without suffering the devastating losses they did. AotC and RotS demonstrated quite clearly that, while powerful warriors, the Jedi are not super-powerful demi-gods, and they can be cut down by superior force just like anyone else.



Nevermind personal shields and cloaks, which some could argue aren't 100% canon because they were only really seen or mentioned in various video games,

Actually, they ARE canon (the personal forcefield generators, anyway). We've seen jury-rigged versions on-screen, and we've had numerous references to specifically-designed personal forcefield generators - most notably DS9 "Homefront", in which Leyton tells Sisko they've been stockpiling munitions on Earth, including enough personal forcefield generators (and other weapons and equipment such as photon grenades) to equip an entire army.


you've got your Empire Special Forces like Phase* Dark Troopers, cyborgs fitted with the very best technology of the time and sometimes empowered by the dark side of the force


Which are SOOO not canon. I don't even remember seeing any reference to these in the EU books I've read, or any other EU material brought up till now. Granted, I'm not an EU expert, but their lack of appearance elsewhere suggests that they're rare even in the EU. Since this is just about canon Trek vs canon Wars, without the EU of either franchise, they don't exist in this debate.

[vp21ct]

about the dark troopers, need i remind you all that in the middle of the night Section 31 operatives could beam right into the middle of the Imperial army, and likely not get seen. we know that the feds have "Cloak Suits" and this means they could sneak in if they wanted.

Tricorders are standard issue to most starfleet personel, and that means that there is a slight chance that dark troopers would be detected, wheather or not they would be killed is another matter but detection is still a big part of it.


and i thought we were using only hard cannon

[Noonien]

Oh, I agree that Starfleet and the Jedi would be unlikely to fight each other, but that doesn't account for the Sith.

On your third point - What about Order 66? If the Force was so powerful, the Jedi should have been able to handle something like that without suffering the devastating losses they did. AotC and RotS demonstrated quite clearly that, while powerful warriors, the Jedi are not super-powerful demi-gods, and they can be cut down by superior force just like anyone else.

Actually they absolutely would have been able to repel any attack on the Jedi temple if every single one of their masters aside from 2 or 3 hadn't been currently away. The Jedi temple was like THE safest place in the galaxy, right in the heart of the Republic, and would have had the added power of the Coruscant security forces if the clone troopers hadn't anexed their role. They were caught off-guard, during the night, with someone leading the attack who could bypass all passive security defenses, with superior numbers and intelligence on the threat. The Emperor covered all of his bases, it was a no-win situation from any angle, and the only angle, he knew, would work.

Course they're gonna get cut down by a superior force, however if you're implying that normal humans wearing no armour with no knowledge of them, their powers or their weapons is a superior force, I'll have to disagree with you there.

Actually, they ARE canon (the personal forcefield generators, anyway). We've seen jury-rigged versions on-screen, and we've had numerous references to specifically-designed personal forcefield generators - most notably DS9 "Homefront", in which Leyton tells Sisko they've been stockpiling munitions on Earth, including enough personal forcefield generators (and other weapons and equipment such as photon grenades) to equip an entire army.

I was referring to the star wars universe when I said that but brings up an interesting point. If the Federation soldiers each have personal shield generators, or a mobile generator they could transport with them, they might risk an open warfare confrontation. I'm not 100% sure how much star wars infantry firepower it would take to disable a shield like that, however I do know that EMP and electrical weapons are one of the crowning jewels of the Empire arsenal and in my mind that makes it even, if not slightly more one-sided for the Fed's.

Which are SOOO not canon. I don't even remember seeing any reference to these in the EU books I've read, or any other EU material brought up till now. Granted, I'm not an EU expert, but their lack of appearance elsewhere suggests that they're rare even in the EU. Since this is just about canon Trek vs canon Wars, without the EU of either franchise, they don't exist in this debate.

Actually the entire Dark Forces series stars a Dark Trooper in one incarnation or the other. A grand total of 4 games so far, Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy you may be familiar with. According to how things went, the Dark Trooper project was scrapped after Katarn stopped the leader and destroyed the Arc Hammer, the only documented place of their creation. Course not all of the Dark Troopers were aboard the Hammer, so a good deal of them survived. The 'Dark Troopers' of such games as Battlefront 1&2 were just Stormtroopers with a big suit of armour, a jetpack and a cool weapon, nowhere near as powerful as real DT's.

Dark Troopers ARE canon, as Dark Forces and Dark Forces 2 were made back when Lucasarts made their own games. I'd be extremely surprised if they weren't, so unless it's stated somewhere that I'm missing we can assume they're in, EU or not.

about the dark troopers, need i remind you all that in the middle of the night Section 31 operatives could beam right into the middle of the Imperial army, and likely not get seen. we know that the feds have "Cloak Suits" and this means they could sneak in if they wanted.

Tricorders are standard issue to most starfleet personel, and that means that there is a slight chance that dark troopers would be detected, wheather or not they would be killed is another matter but detection is still a big part of it.

Could you link me to where it says the Feds have cloak suits? Not taking a stab or anything but I'm curious.

Also what could the operatives possibly do? Assassinate the leaders? Sabotage some mech's? They wouldn't be free to wreak havoc like the Dark Troopers can, overall it would mean very little if a handfull of cloaked assassins infiltrated the ranks, there are too many leaders that are qualified to point at the enemy and tell the stormies to attack, and eventually they're gonna be found out and neutralized. I'll have to see the cloaking device before I can be sure in my words though.

Also the Dark Troopers being detected would mean very little unless it gave them time to get all their leaders standing with their back to a wall and a few dozen phasers pointed forward, and DT's are very, very fast and efficient at what they do. Trust me, a dozen phase 2 DT's would kill everything in the vacinity of the Fed leaders, cut the power, demolish any defenses and wait. A dozen phase 3 DT's would probably be found pretty fast considering they don't have any aeriel capabilities as far as I know, but VERY hard to take down with conventional means, those things take direct high explosive rounds and shrug them off. Not to mention droid reflexes, aim, are more resourceful than the Fed troopers, better armed, better armoured, faster, stronger, smarter, don't need to eat or sleep, and all of this is completely unknown to them. They'd come up as a blip on the radar and I can guarantee they won't send enough men to stop them.

[vp21ct]

Could you link me to where it says the Feds have cloak suits? Not taking a stab or anything but I'm curious.



http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Isolation_suit

Star Trek: Insurrection, they wore them in the first few shots

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Actually they absolutely would have been able to repel any attack on the Jedi temple if every single one of their masters aside from 2 or 3 hadn't been currently away. The Jedi temple was like THE safest place in the galaxy, right in the heart of the Republic, and would have had the added power of the Coruscant security forces if the clone troopers hadn't anexed their role. They were caught off-guard, during the night, with someone leading the attack who could bypass all passive security defenses, with superior numbers and intelligence on the threat. The Emperor covered all of his bases, it was a no-win situation from any angle, and the only angle, he knew, would work.

Course they're gonna get cut down by a superior force, however if you're implying that normal humans wearing no armour with no knowledge of them, their powers or their weapons is a superior force, I'll have to disagree with you there.

But as we saw through that whole sequence, and earlier, in AotC on Geonosis, though formidable warriors, the Jedi are not omni-powerful demi-gods on the battlefield. Even when several dozen knights, including Jedi Masters, are all fighting together, they can be out-numbered and overwhelmed just as easily as any force. The Jedi are like elite special forces - they are DAMN good, and are especially effective at covert infiltration ops, but an armored fighting vehicle would dominate the battlefield more than they will.

Also, Starfleet troopers do wear armor - we've seen light armor employed during the brief Klingon-Federation war, and as early as ST:VI (when they fire the phaser in the mess hall)



I was referring to the star wars universe when I said that but brings up an interesting point. If the Federation soldiers each have personal shield generators, or a mobile generator they could transport with them, they might risk an open warfare confrontation. I'm not 100% sure how much star wars infantry firepower it would take to disable a shield like that, however I do know that EMP and electrical weapons are one of the crowning jewels of the Empire arsenal and in my mind that makes it even, if not slightly more one-sided for the Fed's.

Ah, I see. I've seen Fed personal shield generators discussed more often than SW personal shield generators, and assumed that's what you meant.

As for the ion cannons and such having an affect on Trek systems... The nature of Trek systems would make them largely immune to the debilitating effects EMP weapons have on present-day and SW electronics. They don't have hundreds and thousands of tiny wires running through circuit boards, or copper power lines to be overloaded by an EMP. An ion cannon would probably have some effect against Trek shields, comparable to the amount of energy applied, but beyond that, I doubt they would have any effect on Trek systems.



Actually the entire Dark Forces series stars a Dark Trooper in one incarnation or the other. A grand total of 4 games so far, Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy you may be familiar with. According to how things went, the Dark Trooper project was scrapped after Katarn stopped the leader and destroyed the Arc Hammer, the only documented place of their creation. Course not all of the Dark Troopers were aboard the Hammer, so a good deal of them survived. The 'Dark Troopers' of such games as Battlefront 1&2 were just Stormtroopers with a big suit of armour, a jetpack and a cool weapon, nowhere near as powerful as real DT's.

Ah. I haven't played many SW games, so it's not surprising I haven't heard of them, then.


Dark Troopers ARE canon, as Dark Forces and Dark Forces 2 were made back when Lucasarts made their own games. I'd be extremely surprised if they weren't, so unless it's stated somewhere that I'm missing we can assume they're in, EU or not.

Actually, the games aren't canon, not even the ones made by Lucasarts. They're not in the films, the scripts or the movie novelizations, so they're not hard (movies/scripts) or soft (novelizations) canon.



droid reflexes, aim,

This made me laugh. If the droid armies of the Clone Wars are any indication, SW droid reflexes and aim are less than outstanding.

[Downzy]

Ok well pritty much everyone thinks star trek would win...in battle,

Why dont we see who thinks wins in something more real like witch films were better and acters in these films?

[Zyrious]

Ok well pritty much everyone thinks star trek would win...in battle,

Why dont we see who thinks wins in something more real like witch films were better and acters in these films?

Of course almost everyone thinks trek will win in a battle, it's a *trek* board. Should've seen that coming a mile away :P

[mezlabor]

Of course almost everyone thinks trek will win in a battle, it's a *trek* board. Should've seen that coming a mile away :P

I dont agree. I think taking two fictious franchises and asking who would win is like asking who would win in a fight an apple or an orange.

[Zyrious]

I dont agree. I think taking two fictious franchises and asking who would win is like asking who would win in a fight an apple or an orange.

This is actually sort of true, because in the end the very physics of one universe differ from the other. For instance, one universe may have the ability to vaporize quadrants, but the other can't. That doesnt mean it's weaker, it could just be (and usually is) because that kind of power is either a lot harder to achieve, or impossible to achieve, in according to the physics and theories applied to that particular fiction.

So it is Apples or Oranges. That doesnt mean i wont stop defending SW though, can't have these guys who think Trek will win have free reign, a Devil's Advocate is always a must.

So if Star Trek goes to Star Wars, or vice versa, their very hulls may collapse and their engines fall apart because the universe they entered doesnt support their power source or armor :P

[Noonien]

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Isolation_suit

Star Trek: Insurrection, they wore them in the first few shots

Cheers for that, but what I said above still stands, I can't see how anything less than half the Fed army being cloaked could make an overall difference. The only way cloaked units would be useful would be to assassinate the DT's, which isn't gonna happen. Still a good point though, thanks for bringing it up.

But as we saw through that whole sequence, and earlier, in AotC on Geonosis, though formidable warriors, the Jedi are not omni-powerful demi-gods on the battlefield. Even when several dozen knights, including Jedi Masters, are all fighting together, they can be out-numbered and overwhelmed just as easily as any force. The Jedi are like elite special forces - they are DAMN good, and are especially effective at covert infiltration ops, but an armored fighting vehicle would dominate the battlefield more than they will.

Also, Starfleet troopers do wear armor - we've seen light armor employed during the brief Klingon-Federation war, and as early as ST:VI (when they fire the phaser in the mess hall)

Well as famously said by Windu, Jedi are keepers of the peace, not soldiers. That being said however, I'll take 100 Jedi leading an army and you can have 100 mech's, and I'm pretty sure my army would come out on top. If not only for the fact that lightsabers are cool and slicey and mech's are a huge ass target.

Also I should have said no mentionable armour, light armour isn't going to stop a lightsaber, unless it's dragon-scale. Yeah, I said it.

Ah, I see. I've seen Fed personal shield generators discussed more often than SW personal shield generators, and assumed that's what you meant.

As for the ion cannons and such having an affect on Trek systems... The nature of Trek systems would make them largely immune to the debilitating effects EMP weapons have on present-day and SW electronics. They don't have hundreds and thousands of tiny wires running through circuit boards, or copper power lines to be overloaded by an EMP. An ion cannon would probably have some effect against Trek shields, comparable to the amount of energy applied, but beyond that, I doubt they would have any effect on Trek systems.

Well I'm not fully versed on Trek technology but I remember instances where ion radiation has disabled ship's systems. Can't cite specific examples unfortunately. However until I'm sure that Empire weapons would have no chance of disabling Fed shields I'm obliged from my side of the fence to say they could.

Ah. I haven't played many SW games, so it's not surprising I haven't heard of them, then.

Not surprising, but if you're one of the gamers that isn't intimidated by bad graphics I suggest taking a look at the Dark Forces games, they're just awesome.

Actually, the games aren't canon, not even the ones made by Lucasarts. They're not in the films, the scripts or the movie novelizations, so they're not hard (movies/scripts) or soft (novelizations) canon.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Dark_Forces
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon

In my interpretation it means that the overall story and events of Dark Forces is proper EU fiction, probably more canon than any of the recent crap they've pumped out, because those games were made in the golden age of Lucasarts imagination. You can argue that it still doesn't meet the guidelines of the discussion and I'll accept that, without the DT's the Empire is screwed. If only they had allowed Wook's in the army, they would have been unstoppable!

This made me laugh. If the droid armies of the Clone Wars are any indication, SW droid reflexes are less than outstanding.

Haha, that's true, put my foot in my mouth there. But to be fair most of the droids inaccuracy comes from the weapons they use. Trade Federation droids use standard blasters for heavens sake, they're all over the place, probably why everyone in the Star Trek universe started using phasers, it was the natural evolution from spam to accuracy. Destroyer Droids have near perfect accuracy and pretty good reflexes though, probably because they're a mobile weapons position but still. SBD's have better accuracy but again their arm-mounted blaster is just spray 'n pray at medium-to-long distances. I mean, give them phasers, and they have 'droid aim.' Nowhere near as good as Data, of course, but still as a computer they have to be at least half a notch above human capabilities.

Anyway the point is that DT's were supposed to be a mixture of droid and clone, the perfect super soldier. That goal was realized, before, of course, an EU Jedi came in and destroyed them all with a single thought. As awesome as Katarn is I thought it typical Jedi = Invincible thoughts on Lucasart's part, how awesome Dark Forces is or not.

This is actually sort of true, because in the end the very physics of one universe differ from the other. For instance, one universe may have the ability to vaporize quadrants, but the other can't. That doesnt mean it's weaker, it could just be (and usually is) because that kind of power is either a lot harder to achieve, or impossible to achieve, in according to the physics and theories applied to that particular fiction.

So it is Apples or Oranges. That doesnt mean i wont stop defending SW though, can't have these guys who think Trek will win have free reign, a Devil's Advocate is always a must.

So if Star Trek goes to Star Wars, or vice versa, their very hulls may collapse and their engines fall apart because the universe they entered doesnt support their power source or armor :P

Well the consensus of vs. threads like these is that nothing is excluded that is of paramount importance to one of the sides, and each side meets on a neutral setting. For example a Star Wars vs. WH40k had 'the Force' able to bypass psychic shields and defenses used by Psykers, Chaos Sorcerers, Librarians and Farseers, the Warp was in as well (allowing the Imperium of Man to travel via the warp, but not give the Daemons free reign over everything, 40k style). Basically we try to mash together two universes and make them fight to the death for our amusement, the old 'you can't use the Force against [insert guy here] because the Force doesn't exist in [insert universe here]!' is swept under the rug to spend some time with physics while we have our fun.

[MidniteAvenger]

I can't believe this thread is this long....wow.
Although strictly hypothetical Star Wars wins on manpower alone.
Even with matching forces Star Wars is gonna win because of the militaristic nature of force.

Now if you go anecdotal I don't think a group of TL 1 teddy bears could take out a group of Federation Marines so Star Trek wins.:D

[Zyrious]

In my interpretation it means that the overall story and events of Dark Forces is proper EU fiction, probably more canon than any of the recent crap they've pumped out, because those games were made in the golden age of Lucasarts imagination. You can argue that it still doesn't meet the guidelines of the discussion and I'll accept that, without the DT's the Empire is screwed. If only they had allowed Wook's in the army, they would have been unstoppable!


Though Dragon doesnt except any EU (Even though in Star Wars it isnt "Soft Canon", but "Official Canon overridable by anything George Lucas says or does"(Aka if George Lucas contradicts it, it's no longer official canon. This has yet to happen except for 2 novels i can think of) as put by the Continuity and database manager at Lucasfilm LTD.) I still say SW has more than a chance. By sheer logistics, they can throw half a million "Primitive" hunks of Star Destroyers into the fray, and just by sheer numbers defeat the federation. Millions upon millions of clones and recruited civilians (As GL said, after Ep 3 The Empire started recruiting non-clones into the Stormtrooper corps as well), hundreds of thousands of star destroyers... Sheer unstoppable numbers, funded upon the millions of worlds controlled by the Galactic Empire.

Though, i dont for a minute buy the "Star Wars weapons and shields are inferior" argument, not by a longshot.

[Admiral.of.Starfleet]

Though Dragon doesnt except any EU (Even though in Star Wars it isnt "Soft Canon", but "Official Canon overridable by anything George Lucas says or does"(Aka if George Lucas contradicts it, it's no longer official canon. This has yet to happen except for 2 novels i can think of) as put by the Continuity and database manager at Lucasfilm LTD.) I still say SW has more than a chance. By sheer logistics, they can throw half a million "Primitive" hunks of Star Destroyers into the fray, and just by sheer numbers defeat the federation. Millions upon millions of clones and recruited civilians (As GL said, after Ep 3 The Empire started recruiting non-clones into the Stormtrooper corps as well), hundreds of thousands of star destroyers... Sheer unstoppable numbers, funded upon the millions of worlds controlled by the Galactic Empire.

Though, i dont for a minute buy the "Star Wars weapons and shields are inferior" argument, not by a longshot.

The tactics they use are inferior though. They are huge bulky mases that cant maneuver for their lives. They couldnt hit the Milennium Flacon so what makes you think they could take down a defiant class starship? Then there are peregrine class ships, saber class, runabouts, nova class, heck it would even be hard for them to hit intrepid class ships.

[Zyrious]

The tactics they use are inferior though. They are huge bulky mases that cant maneuver for their lives. They couldnt hit the Milennium Flacon so what makes you think they could take down a defiant class starship? Then there are peregrine class ships, saber class, runabouts, nova class, heck it would even be hard for them to hit intrepid class ships.

They can Manuver, and they do move quite fast (ANH, ESB), they just can't manuver as quickly as most Starfleet vessels. However, most starfleet vessels are much larger than the falcon, and they dont have the "Hero" factor in which they are unhittable by even the most accurate of weapons (Star Wars is infamous for the "Hero" factor making heroes not only invulnerable, but unhittable)

[irishboondockfan]

k, i didn't read all 56 pages of posts, so i don't know if it's been brought up before now...but if we're talking about all the elements of Star Trek vs. all the elements of Star Wars then couldn't you just use a cloaked Bird of Prey or other Klingon or Romulan vessal to come along side a star destroyer or the DeathStar and transport a few tons of explosives into their engine room, command deck, or other critical part of the ship and set the timer for about 10 seconds so as to allow the cloaked ship to move to a safe distance and then watch the fireworks? i mean, in the Star Wars universe we've only seen ONE SHIP that had cloak capability, so it's not anywhere near as common as in Star Trek. just throwin that one out there, cause if i were in command of a vessal that could cloak i'd get my hands on all the bombs i could, and single-handedly take out the Imperial Navy and any other ship or installation within a month.

[starshipcaptain]

So Shuttlecrafts vs star fighters

[vp21ct]

So Shuttlecrafts vs star fighters

Shuttles, better sheilds, better weapons. only draw back is that they are less menuverable.

[TheWon]

Ok well pritty much everyone thinks star trek would win...in battle,

Why dont we see who thinks wins in something more real like witch films were better and acters in these films?

This would be on fair to Star Wars because of the amount of actors in the Trek Universe.

Star Wars only has really Harrison Ford, Where Trek you can pick from Shatner, Stewart, and Nimoy.

Also no matter what you think about Shatner acting ability. He is no where as bad as Hayden,. That guy alone made the Prequels unbearable.

[Zyrious]

This would be on fair to Star Wars because of the amount of actors in the Trek Universe.

Star Wars only has really Harrison Ford, Where Trek you can pick from Shatner, Stewart, and Nimoy.

Also no matter what you think about Shatner acting ability. He is no where as bad as Hayden,. That guy alone made the Prequels unbearable.

I loved hayden in Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith, is performance was much, much better than in Episode 2 and shows really the only thing holding him back was the script for Ep 2. Episode 3 was great in all regards, with only 1 bad scene i can recall, the "Balcony Scene".

And..Star Trek has Wesley Crusher...

[Himser]

The tactics they use are inferior though. They are huge bulky mases that cant maneuver for their lives. They couldnt hit the Milennium Flacon so what makes you think they could take down a defiant class starship? Then there are peregrine class ships, saber class, runabouts, nova class, heck it would even be hard for them to hit intrepid class ships.


like was said before the whole defiant ( smallest fed ship ive seen smallest size ive seen is 80 meters and largest is 130 im inclined to think 80) is 3-4 times the size as the falcan and the whole hero factor.

also on acting skill .. frankly most of ST bad acting has to do with crappy scripts .. SW bad acting is anakin and padme. lol and the empiror

[mezlabor]

I loved hayden in Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith, is performance was much, much better than in Episode 2 and shows really the only thing holding him back was the script for Ep 2. Episode 3 was great in all regards, with only 1 bad scene i can recall, the "Balcony Scene".

And..Star Trek has Wesley Crusher...

The Balcony scene was terrible. Anakin and Padme were better in episode 3 thats for sure. But Palpatine stole the show in that movie imo.

[ssra]

This is probably the most r*********d thread i've ever seen in this forum.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

This is probably the most r*********d thread i've ever seen in this forum.

And you're posting in it. } ; = 8 )

Sorry for not making any posts recently, guys, I've been buys with the holiday weekend, plus school, work, etc. I might have time to get something of substance up later tonight, though I can't make any promises.

[vp21ct]

Sorry for not making any posts recently, guys, I've been buys with the holiday weekend, plus school, work, etc. I might have time to get something of substance up later tonight, though I can't make any promises.

what do you thik we wanted you back.........
JK :p

[irishboondockfan]

ok, so i didn't see anyone even acknowledge my post about beaming bombs from a cloaked ship to the critical parts of a ship or station being superior, let alone challenge it...so, until someone does, i'm going to consider that it's because no one can find fault with my logic and thus Star Trek would beat Star Wars hands down...

[Zyrious]

ok, so i didn't see anyone even acknowledge my post about beaming bombs from a cloaked ship to the critical parts of a ship or station being superior, let alone challenge it...so, until someone does, i'm going to consider that it's because no one can find fault with my logic and thus Star Trek would beat Star Wars hands down...

Imperial Officers have knowledge about cloaking devices, and thus possibly technology to detect it (And why no ships utilize it anymore in the SW universe).... And star wars ships and stations also have deflector shields which are always active, and since even a minor storm interferes with transporter beams, then deflector shields capable of holding back thousands of megatons of energy release will likely prevent transporter beams. So your strategy is null and void.

[vp21ct]

Just to clarify, the reason star wars cloaks don't work is because they are total, you cannot see the cloaked ship. Unfortunately this works both ways (if i can't see you, you can't see me). That means that a Tactically functional cloak is completly alien to the Imperials.

[Admiral.of.Starfleet]

How about Interphase cloaks??? Some how I doubt the Imperials have knowledge of interphase cloaks

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Imperial Officers have knowledge about cloaking devices, and thus possibly technology to detect it (And why no ships utilize it anymore in the SW universe).... And star wars ships and stations also have deflector shields which are always active, and since even a minor storm interferes with transporter beams, then deflector shields capable of holding back thousands of megatons of energy release will likely prevent transporter beams. So your strategy is null and void.

First, the rarity of cloaking devices could easily be due to the rarity of the technology itself, not its ease of defeat. Second, there's no way of knowing that any methods the Imperials have of detecting one of their cloaked ships (assuming they have such methods of detection) will work on a Trek cloak. Third, I do not recall anything that indicated that the deflector shields were always active. Fourth, outside of the Death Star superlaser (which has not been conclusively proven in any way to be a direct energy application weapon, and so cannot be used as a valid measure of energy output), what weapon effects have ever demonstrated anything close to the megaton range, let alone multiple gigaton range? The only kiloton range events that I am aware of, outside of the destruction of the Death Star (which was obviously above the kiloton range, and which I'm still working on determining an approximate explosive yield based on the size of the explosion), was the destruction of the Rebel power generators on Hoth, when one of the Trade Federation starships crashed after being shot down during take-off in AotC, the seismic charges in AotC (which, it should be noted, directed all their energy into a very, very flat disk, not a sphere, greatly reducing the amount of energy put out by the device) and possibly the torpedo/missile Jango fired at Obi Wan in AotC (don't have measurement data on that yet). At no other time have we seen any such yields, to my knowledge. Now, obviously, if Jango's suped up starship could launch kiloton-range missiles, then it's logical to conclude that the capital ship guns could put out at least comparable firepower, but that's still far from the gigaton range.

[Edrick]

I loved hayden in Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith, is performance was much, much better than in Episode 2 and shows really the only thing holding him back was the script for Ep 2. Episode 3 was great in all regards, with only 1 bad scene i can recall, the "Balcony Scene".

And..Star Trek has Wesley Crusher...



I have to once again agree with you in this Zyrious that the one bad scene in Star War, Revenge of the Sith was that Balcony Scene. I mean come on she looks like someone that is Hooked on something that people sell them selves in order to get money for. Not to mention the hole Scene was just BAD.

[Zyrious]

Err..double post.

[Zyrious]

First, the rarity of cloaking devices could easily be due to the rarity of the technology itself, not its ease of defeat. Second, there's no way of knowing that any methods the Imperials have of detecting one of their cloaked ships (assuming they have such methods of detection) will work on a Trek cloak. Third, I do not recall anything that indicated that the deflector shields were always active. Fourth, outside of the Death Star superlaser (which has not been conclusively proven in any way to be a direct energy application weapon, and so cannot be used as a valid measure of energy output), what weapon effects have ever demonstrated anything close to the megaton range, let alone multiple gigaton range? The only kiloton range events that I am aware of, outside of the destruction of the Death Star (which was obviously above the kiloton range, and which I'm still working on determining an approximate explosive yield based on the size of the explosion), was the destruction of the Rebel power generators on Hoth, when one of the Trade Federation starships crashed after being shot down during take-off in AotC, the seismic charges in AotC (which, it should be noted, directed all their energy into a very, very flat disk, not a sphere, greatly reducing the amount of energy put out by the device) and possibly the torpedo/missile Jango fired at Obi Wan in AotC (don't have measurement data on that yet). At no other time have we seen any such yields, to my knowledge. Now, obviously, if Jango's suped up starship could launch kiloton-range missiles, then it's logical to conclude that the capital ship guns could put out at least comparable firepower, but that's still far from the gigaton range.

You need to apply use of standard English Paragraphs. Blocks of Text hurt everyone, and god kills a kitten whenever one is posted. You've been warned. :P

As for the megaton range, i used your example of the Vapetown source as my base for now (since it wasnt the point of my post whatsoever, yet you somehow chose to delve into it. Straw man argument ftl)

Also, throwing out half the displays of Superior firepower by the Empire is called "Stacking the Deck". You've essentially said "Anything that can place imperial tech above Federation tech is dissallowed" and also thrown out the only thing that can give us a true and accurate sense of high-end imperial firepower and their power generation capabilities.

However, for the sake of the argument, i give you this Alderaan goes bye bye (http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Wars/Special/SF/AlderaanBlast-4.jpg) As can be seen, the planet begins to blow up the second the tip of the energy blast touches the planet, indicating the power from the laser/plasma/whatever is being released immediatly upon touching other matter. There's no time here for any kind of Chain reaction, and it also appears the surface at the point of imapct has probably been completely vaporized.

The Xindi weapon is a good example of a Chain Reaction, where the weapon hits, but causes no real direct damage except to dig a hole into the core of the Earth and then cause a chain reaction splitting the crust and destroying the planet. In the Alderaan blast, the Energy from the weapon is released immediatly upon impact, rather that staying focused and drilling through the planet, and blasts the planet into unrecognizable pieces, leaving little debris except for a few meteors in the area. And again, unlike the Xindi Weapon, instead of beaming a steady stream of energy into the planet to trigger a chain reaction, the Deathstar fires a single bolt at the planet that destroys it near instantaneously (Had it been a more focused beam with little energy release, we would have seen the bolt exit from the other side of the planet, rather than release its energy).

Also, there is no example, At all, within SW lore that Deflector shields ever need to be "Turned on" or "Deactivated", and they are immediatly ready whenever combat ensues. And no doubt, any Imperial Fleet exploring the frontier of the Milky Way would have their shields on at all time.

Either way, the cloak point is completely moot, because we have no details whatsoever on the Empire's Sensor tech in regaurds to cloak, one way or the other.

[Arcturus]

Imperial Stat Readouts are totally inflated for dramatic effect, and there is no base in reality for those kind of lies.

If it were true they would not have lost, badly, to Ewoks.

The force of swinging tree trunks destroyed AT-ST walkers.

Rocks and sticks devastated Stormtrooper's Kinetic armor.

AT AT walkers got destroyed by tow cables, tripping them and the momentum of their mass at Fg=G mM/r squared. (Acceletation due to Hoth's Gravitational pull.)

A far cry from assumed gigatons. No I think any kind of pure energy weapon should destroy any kind of SW ship.

All SW ships fire at each other are charged particles, weak ones. (They bounce off magnetic trash compactors. Ship guns? I'll get you a bigger magnet, make an artificial sunspot if I have to.)

Go Ewoks! Join the Federation!:D

[irishboondockfan]

who said i'd be just flying around looking for Imperial ships to destroy? i'd just hang around the drydocks and bases and wait there to transport bombs on their ships. and as far as them being able to detect me, an Imperial Star Destroyer couldn't even detect the Falcon when it was clamped on to the back of it, they had to rely on Boba to track them, and since he's dead i wouldn't need to worry about him anyway.

and ok, let's just say that you find some other flaw with that plan i've got two words for you...Borg Cube...that's right, just put one of those in from of an Imperial armada and watch the fun! let's face it guys, we like Star Wars because it's more rugged and fly-by-the-seat, but when it comes to Star Trek, technology is on their side...

[Verkruk]

Ok lets try this on for size. (and forgive me if this has been mentioned before)

I admit that I will have problems sticking to the "strict" movie cannon per the original rules because I am an avid fan of both universes.
But I am biased towards Star Trek.

--Ships & Number of Ships--

Now, in RotJ BOTH the Rebellion and the Empire bring their entire fleets to the fight.
And its a match that is in the Empires favor. But how may ships do you see of the side of the 2nd Death Star?
Their appears to be only ONE Super Star Destroyer instead of many.
Again you see around 30, possibly 50 ISDs. Not millions. And far less then the amount of ships SF sports.

The Death Stars have been shown to be weak against smaller faster ships but strong against slow moving larger targets.

--Tactics and Sensor Tech--

It has also been mentioned that the Empire uses outdated naval type warfare in capital ship combat.
While the Star Fleet ships are capable of attacking and defending from any side but favor the front.

As for the sensors. Star Wars is behind. The Falcon which is equipped with an illegal sensor dish that allows it greater vision then most ISDs cannot detect that a small moon is in fact a space station of enormous size.
And in The Empire Strikes Back they cannot even detect the Falcon when it attaches to THEIR OWN SHIP!

While Star Fleet sporst sensors capable of detecting ships when they are light years away.
That is quite an impressive range.

--Lasers vs Star Trek Shield Tech & Phasers--

In the Star Trek TNG series there is an episode where Picard explains to Worf that they can safely lower their shields against enemies armed with Lasers as their force fields alone are capable of repelling that fire power. (Don't know if that counts as Cannon in this case though)

Both factions are capable of destroying worlds and suns. So thats a null factor.

Also the Turbo laser batteries have to be reloaded every time and are also mostly side mounted as we can see in RotS.

Then you have the Federations Array set-up.
This alone is a very unique set up and is one that we very rarely if ever see fully utilized in any pure cannon or even EU material.

Each node is capable of being a self sufficient source of damage.
yet its damage output is capped so to speak because of size. But as we do see in First Contact the arrays are capable of rapid fire that does not require the full array to charge.

So in theory the Enterprise E could potentially have hundreds of hardpoints.
And does not require the entire array to put out serious damage.

Star Trek ships are capable of using longer charges for potentially more powerful shots, but are not required.
Capital ships in Star Wars seem to have one setting and one setting only.

[Garfield_cro]

the question is simple and the answer also.

if we rule out the Jedi and the Sith, and all other Force users, the Federation would be victorious. OVERALL: STAR TREK vs STAR WARS ---> STAR TREK WINS

but if the Jedi and the Sith are in this, there is a chance that Star Wars would be on the wining side, but not by mutch, they`d suffer casualties that the victory would not seem like one

[trooper_c]

id say it would be a draw star trek could probably kill most of the star trek guys with the jedi and sith but satr trek might be able to blow up the star wars guys ships before they get close

[Admiral.of.Starfleet]

Well I see it this way if five quantums can destroy a borg sphere, at most you should only need ten to takeout the shield generators of an ISD, They are big targets, I mean why would someone be so dumb to put the shield generators in a prominent position on the hull instead of inside the ship?

[Zyrious]

Well I see it this way if five quantums can destroy a borg sphere, at most you should only need ten to takeout the shield generators of an ISD, They are big targets, I mean why would someone be so dumb to put the shield generators in a prominent position on the hull instead of inside the ship?

Common Misconception. Most believe, from G-Level canon view, that those are Sensor Domes. Those 2 combined with the dome on the bottom of the Star destroyer give them a full range of powerful sensors with few blindspots. If i'm remembering correctly.

[Verkruk]

Common Misconception. Most believe, from G-Level canon view, that those are Sensor Domes. Those 2 combined with the dome on the bottom of the Star destroyer give them a full range of powerful sensors with few blindspots. If i'm remembering correctly.

So where are the shield generators then?

[Zyrious]

So where are the shield generators then?

Same place they are in any other ship. Deep inside the bowels of the ship. Similiar to the Mon Cals, the Falcon, the X-Wings, and every other ship that has shields.

[Verkruk]

Same place they are in any other ship. Deep inside the bowels of the ship. Similiar to the Mon Cals, the Falcon, the X-Wings, and every other ship that has shields.

I've seen schematics that show those twin spheres atop the bridge module to be both the sensors and the shields.

But moving on from that.

All Star Trek would have to do is fly under the ISDs get in close and fire away.
Because it seems that the Star Wars shielding only repels energy based weaponry.
Which would help explain why the concussion missiles on the Falcon would be illegal and why the Falcon was able to land on an ISD with its shields up.

And the Star Trek shields by the way are not affected by fusion explosion devices.
Can't remember what movie (if any) that it was mentioned in. But I know it was.

[Richman12]

And the Star Trek shields by the way are not affected by fusion explosion devices.
Can't remember what movie (if any) that it was mentioned in. But I know it was.

I really don't think that was in the movies might have been and I just don't remeber it more or less I think it would more likely be in 1 of the series episodes. Not sure which or could be in 1 of the varouse Star Trek Tech books.

Though I do remeber either reading or hearing about it somewhere maybe even seen it.

[SamTreky]

I am currently in law school, so I have an idea that I got from studying the law. Cases are precedent, unless they are from a different jurisdiction. However, even different jurisdictional cases can be used as pursuasive arguments, if the logic and law are consistent with the jurisdiction you are in.

Turning to this lively debate, I say, that books and comic books and other secondary material not in the official canon, can be used but only as pursuasive authority, and not ultimately binding or controlling. Lets face it, some authors really know their stuff, and then there was this one book I read that had Captain Kirk asking for warp 12!. But if you are reading a book by Peter David, or Michael Friedman, then the authority is solid, and they already place a great deal of stress and importance on "official canon," and try not to goof things up.

Hope that helps.

[SilverSuit]

Personally I think the Federation would beat the Empire all the way back to their galaxy far, far away lol.
A: The Federation has ablative armor.
B: The Federation has shields.
C: The Federation has phasers.
and finally as if the previous three weren't enough the Federation has Transphasic torpedos which would be the death knell of anything the Empire could throw at the Federation.
Just my opinion lol...

[starshipcaptain]

dont forget transporters

[BENIBOY]

star trek is the winer

[Renaikan]

Ok, you know you all want to see it, the Galactic Empire vs the United Federation of Planets. ISDs tangling with the Enterprise, the Defiant barreling down the Death Star trench, Starfleet tactical fighters mixing it up with Imperial TIE Fighters, all out war. The question is, who would win? Who has the superior technology, firepower, numbers, industrial capacity, tactics and strategies. Well, that's what this tread is all about.

Before we get started, however, there are a few things we need to establish. First and foremost, this will not be a flame war. This will be an intelligent, civil debate and discussion. Heated and aggressive debate is one thing, but direct insults, slander, vitriol, etc. will not be tolerated. This is for fun, not for keeps, and you're under no obligation to adhere with anything presented here within your own personal view of the two universes. For the sake of consistent public discussion and debate, what can be supported and established by evidence, math, applicable laws of physics, etc. will be considered fact (or very strong theory as applicable) within the context of this debate, however, so even if you disagree with something, if it can be proven within this discussion, it has the force of fact within this discussion (you just don't have to follow it outside of this discussion, save any later discussion that acknowledges the contents of this discussion as fact for its purposes, etc.).

Second is the matter of canon. Star Trek and Star Wars both have multiple aspects of canon, including the official 'film only' stance held by both license holders (i.e. if it is on the screen, it's canon, and if it's not on the screen, it's not canon), but both franchises have volumes and volumes of 'non-canon' novels, encyclopedias, technical manuals, ship spotter charts, etc. etc., that are all more or less bound together by their own canon system. Much of the ST vs SW debates have been dedicated to debating whether or not these 'expanded universe' materials should be included with the official canon, and what level of precedence they should be given. Before we can even begin to debate the outcome of a conflict between these two universes, we need to determine exactly which versions of those universes we are committing to our little war.

So, the first order of business for all those interested in participating is what to consider canon for the sake of our debates. Personally, I am in favor of going mostly film-only, with the use of the Star Trek technical manuals and the Star Wars film novelizations as supplemental 'semi-canon' material, that is considered canon or near-canon except when contradicted by the on-screen canon (which is above all). Excluded from the canon, and thereby unacceptable as a valid data source, would be all of the novels and other materials from each universe's 'expanded universe' (to generalize the name of the SW non-film material) besides the Star Trek technical manuals and the SW film novelizations.*

I prefer this definition of 'canon' for the debate, because it most closely matches the nature of the core of both franchises, the shows and movies themselves. Incorporating the expanded universe material from both franchises introduces aspects which invariably drift away from that, and very much change the underlying principles of it all. And it introduces a LOT more factors and super weapons and other complicating matters into both universes (and I'd rather not devolve into an argument about which super technology or super weapon from this novel or that is superior).

So, what say you all? Is this acceptable and shall we have at it as presented, or do you wish to use a different definition of what material is acceptable as canon for the purposes of this debate?



*For the sake of fairness, I would include the SW technical manuals as well, but they have either been written by Curtis Saxxon or heavily influenced by his Incredible Cross Sections series, and Curtis Saxxon is a prominent and active member of the Pro-SW community, and has been implicated in using his position as author of the ICS books to 'pad' the stats of the SW technical specifications in the Pro-SW community's favor (and yes, sadly enough, there are people in the ST vs SW community who have done more than just made it their sole hobby, but have gone to the lengths of using their careers to 'boost the odds', so to speak, in the favor of their chosen side). As such, the Star Wars technical manuals are compromised as a source material, due to the conflict of interest involved in their creation.


Huge mistake starting a Star Trek vs Star Wars thread. Like comparing apples and oranges. Also, this type of thread always leads to one huge flame war.

[vp21ct]

Huge mistake starting a Star Trek vs Star Wars thread. Like comparing apples and oranges. Also, this type of thread always leads to one huge flame war.

Thats what im here for, I have found that i am quite capable of Killing flame threads. Since this thread is what it is, i can't kill it, but i can discorage flamers. In any case.



Have we yet considered the possibility of other Alpha Quadrant powers becoming involved in this conflict, I think that it is a valid point that in the face of such a powerful enemy, the federation would seek the help of its allies.

[Catamount]

I'm not sure if what's being asked here is whether or not Star Wars technology is superior/inferior to Star Trek's, or whether the OP wants to know who we think would actually prevail between the 2 if a war broke out with (for example) the Empire invading the Federation.

My 2 cents here is that while Star Wars technology (belonging to a race that's been i space for 25k years) would enable the Empire or a similar galactic body to completely crush the federation, the Jem'Hadar, anything ST can offer, short of the pre-Voyager borg (but I won't get into that), it wouldn't really come down to technology so much as the nature of us damned annoying Terrans.

I think the Empire would crush us, and would probably subjugate us... for awhile anyways. Humans are smart though, and we'd reverse engineer their technology before long and adapt it. More importantly, Terrans (far more than even the humans in Star Wars) just aren't very good at accepting involuntary rule, regardless of how powerful a force it's imposed by, as history shows time and time again. It would just be a nightmare for the Empire. The ranks of the Maquis would swell, the more covert networks within the Federation would become a means of communication within inter-planetary resistances. The Rebel Alliance would simply have NOTHING on us.

Bottom line, SW has the advantage of much better technology, but I'll hand both better history and better innovation to Star Trek. maybe I'm just partial to Earth, but we're a resilient species, and I don't see us losing a war of that sort just on account of inferior numbers and weapons.

[Admiral.of.Starfleet]

Although, I dont think the Federation would lose, I do agree if the Empire did take over the Federation, they would be just opening up Pandora's Box.

[Catamount]

Well as the author of http://www.stardestroyer.net/ points out, Star Trek ships really are outclassed to the extreme. The author seems a bit biased, but his information is correct nonetheless. A fleet of federation starships would barely make a dent in an ISD II. Of course that's because the 2 SCI-FIs were made independently of each other without thought to balance between the 2 more than anything else, but it is still true. That said, we'd still rock some stupid expeditionary force of star destroyers from Coruscant one way or another. We'd just have to get creative to do it, even if it meant waiting until they built dry docks to repair them in and blowing them up while they're docked and uncrewed :).

[hoggj]

Star wars could give star trek a run for its money in a full blown war certainly

[Omega1]

seriously....who cares:p

[Admiral.of.Starfleet]

Well as the author of http://www.stardestroyer.net/ points out, Star Trek ships really are outclassed to the extreme. The author seems a bit biased, but his information is correct nonetheless. A fleet of federation starships would barely make a dent in an ISD II. Of course that's because the 2 SCI-FIs were made independently of each other without thought to balance between the 2 more than anything else, but it is still true. That said, we'd still rock some stupid expeditionary force of star destroyers from Coruscant one way or another. We'd just have to get creative to do it, even if it meant waiting until they built dry docks to repair them in and blowing them up while they're docked and uncrewed :).

SDN is incredibly biased and pads the numbers.

[Catamount]

SDN is incredibly biased and pads the numbers.

Well I totally agree that the guy is biased, and he's kind of a DBAG anyways. You can visit his evolution vs creationism page for proof of that (I submit to evolution of course, I just don't like reading about it from a guy who's on such a high horse intellectually). That said, I'd like to see evidence that he pads the numbers (if only to feel better about hating him).

Even if Star Wars is truly superior to Star Trek to that extent though, isn't it a bit silly? I mean it's a stretch of today's science to imagine the power generation that appears in Star Trek (power in the terrawatts), but in Star Wars the numbers go from slightly ridiculous to what the hell kind of drugs are you on ridiculous. I mean if SDN is to be believed, then a single laser bolt from a single starfighter should pretty much have thousands of times the destructive power of the Tsar Bomba. If fact, weapons are supposedly SO powerful in Star Wars that whenever you see a firefight, every laser bolt a stormtrooper fires that misses should hit a wall, and release so much energy that everything within 10 city blocks should instantly vaporize. I'm not exxagerating. In fact I might even be conservatively describing the obscene power generation that's supposedly in Star Wars. Maybe SDN does pad the numbers, because I find it hard to believe that a hypermatter reactor of a ~1.7km ISD II can match the energy output of an entire star.

Of course... this does lead us to an interesting point withing Star Trek. The Omega Particle. I bring this up for 2 reasons. First, does it make Star Wars' supposedly obscene energy output figures reasonable to know there's a single phenomenon in ST that can match the SW numbers? Secondly, what does this do for a war between the 2 galaxies. An Omega Particle weapon if devised would be like a wide area blast with the equivalent power of a shot from the death star. It would incapacitate an entire fleet of imperial vessels if configured properly, though I imagine undertaking such a weapon would be like building the artificial wormhole the Jem'Hadar undertook in john Vornholt's Dominion War novels (if you never read them then I'll just say it was quite the ambitious project).

[Verkruk]

Back on topic guys and gals.
The EU is off limits, so books and non cannon sources are out.

By cannon the Star Wars ships are slower. .5 past light speed anyone?
While warp speed is an exponential increase.

As for the claim of Star Wars being in space for thousand upon thousands of years... they certainly haven't seem to evolved much. They just make things bigger.

[lobsternooberg]

Star Wars....

why?
1) the force (kirk was good data was better but neither could do triple 40' backflip and attack with a lightsaber
2) death stars,world devestators, super star destroyer, executor and all much bigger
3) higher population by a factor of at least 10 but probably 100 maybe even 1000
4) the empire was said to rule over millions of worlds.... the federation ???? couple hundred tops
5) fighter tech more prevalent.... x wing versus shuttle craft........
6) empires ships are built for war......... star wars for exploration
7) the one i am forgetting but is really obvious

[lobsternooberg]

How bout this comparison i pirated


Star Wars is (literally) thousands of years more advanced. Their heavy guns can put out 200 gigatons per shot from each turret, and the shields have 70 trillion GW peak heat dissipation. The Enterprise-D's photon torpedo's are 64 megatons (MANY times weaker) shields are 3311 GW peak head dissipation (MANY times weaker).

Enterprise-D = dead in one direct hit (not exaggerating).

[vp21ct]

All right, I have come to end this debate ONCE AND FOR ALL.


It wouldn't happen.


The only way for Star Wars to get to the Milky Way is for a Wormhole, and SW ships can't detect them, END OF STORY.




*sits back and waits for someone to flame him*

[Catamount]

Back on topic guys and gals.
The EU is off limits, so books and non cannon sources are out.

By cannon the Star Wars ships are slower. .5 past light speed anyone?
While warp speed is an exponential increase.

As for the claim of Star Wars being in space for thousand upon thousands of years... they certainly haven't seem to evolved much. They just make things bigger.

You're making a classic trekkie mistake, trying to infer too much information from the name of something. "light speed" does not literally mean the speed of light. One could easily figure this out by realizing that the speed of light isn't even sufficient to clear a solar system for hours (it takes somewhere in the ballpark of 10 hours just to go from the sun to Pluto, our former outermost planet). A Star Wars hyperdrive is not only much faster than light, but FAR, FAR faster than even warp 9.9 ( which is ~3000*speed of light) as Star Wars ships can cross their galaxy seemingly in the same amount of time it takes a federation vessel just to cross a single sector. Of course I must point out that I'm not aware the the relative size of the Milky Way galaxy compared to the galaxy in Star Wars, and it could very well be significantly smaller, but that that doesn't change much.

That said, you already know that I don't credit the empire with the kind of victory and subjugation of the federation that's proposed by the author of StarDestroyer.net solely because of the technological gap. First, because Star Trek has a few tricks up it's sleeve like transphasic torpedoes (shown to be from the near future in endgame) and materials like carbon neutronium, which would help create better parity between the 2 universes.

More importantly though there's a difference in the mentality of the 2 civilizations that's analogous to that of the British and the Colonials in the American Revolution. In Star Wars, war has always been about who's bigger. You can look at any point in Star Wars history and wars are almost entirely decided by bigger fleets, more powerful force adepts, better technology, superior soldiers, or similar advantages. Even the Rebel Alliance didn't undertake unusual tactics in fighting the empire beyond drawing the sympathy of many of the galaxy's and Empire's best and brightest (Kyle Katarn, Tycho from Rogue squadron, etc etc). Their only real tactic was to engage the empire on a level playing field in battles they could win. They didn't really use or understand Guerilla warfare or display any kind of innovative tactics. That's why in the Battle of Yavin the rebels got totally slaughtered. The only pilots who survived the whole ordeal were Wedge the flying wonder, Luke the force sensitive, and Han, who came in 20 seconds before the battle ended (and who happened to save Luke). Oh and let's not forget that one unnamed Y-Wing too but that changes little.

In Star Trek on the other hand, races understand unconventional warfare very well. Terrans are the quintessential masters of fighting unfairly when conventional strength isn't on our side, and the Bajorans aren't half bad themselves (hence the 2 most dominant races in the Maquis). A war between a (possible) future version of us and the Empire would just prove devastating to the empire, because once we realized we wouldn't be able to fight toe to toe, we'd stop giving them things to shoot at. We'd infiltrate their ranks, we'd covertly plant bombs on their ships and blow them up from the inside while they were docked, we'd fire at them and run into the badlands and watch the storms tear their cruisers apart (if an asteroid will do it, one of those storms CERTAINLY will). Eventually we'd even start stealing and using their superior technology. There would just be no winning it for them.

[SilverSuit]

FYI, light-speed=the speed of light... ;)

[Catamount]

FYI, light-speed=the speed of light... ;)

As I've already demonstrated, that's not a logical assumption. Just because they call it "light speed" doesn't make it literal. If star wars ships could really only travel 1 or 1.5 times the speed of light, then simple trips like that between Tatooine and Alderaan (the first hyperspace trip we see in the movies) would have taken hundreds... or thousands of years instead of a what is presumably a couple of hours. Don't you think that'd be a pretty big plot hole? I think it's safe to say Luke and friends would have been a little late to prevent Leia's execution, don't you? ;)

[irishboondockfan]

guys, i'm sorry, no one has been able to prove to me, or anyone else that hanging around a drydock or other spacestation in a cloaked ship and beaming bombs to the critical parts of star destroyers and other vessels wouldn't work. nothing from the movies suggests that star wars could detect cloaked ships or prevent a transporter from beaming explosives onto their ships. and as for a jedi or sith, well if a squad of clones troops armed with blasters can take one down, just imagine what some of the gizmos of the star trek universe could do...now c'mon guys, this is a fun thread and believe me when i say i'm just as big a star wars fan as i am a star trek fan, but this is simply not even a close match

so hows about we just agree to disagree on this one...by the way, for those of you who wish to oppose my opinion and hail glory to darth and the gang, consider one more point of view...you're talking about this in a STAR TREK FORUM!!!!

[Catamount]

guys, i'm sorry, no one has been able to prove to me, or anyone else that hanging around a drydock or other spacestation in a cloaked ship and beaming bombs to the critical parts of star destroyers and other vessels wouldn't work. nothing from the movies suggests that star wars could detect cloaked ships or prevent a transporter from beaming explosives onto their ships. and as for a jedi or sith, well if a squad of clones troops armed with blasters can take one down, just imagine what some of the gizmos of the star trek universe could do...now c'mon guys, this is a fun thread and believe me when i say i'm just as big a star wars fan as i am a star trek fan, but this is simply not even a close match

so hows about we just agree to disagree on this one...by the way, for those of you who wish to oppose my opinion and hail glory to darth and the gang, consider one more point of view...you're talking about this in a STAR TREK FORUM!!!!

Well I've always argued that same point about Star Trek. Does Star Wars have access to better tech? Sure. That said I think we're better than any distant race of humanoids who think they're just gonna come in here and trash our party. Call it pride in the species, but I just root for Terrans by default.

[EnsignSkylarkThibedeau]

A long time ago in a Galaxy Far Far Away................

The Borg assimilated the Empire and the Rebel Alliance.

[bobh]

What is Star Wars?

[SilverSuit]

LOL
Star Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars)

[Catamount]

LOL
Star Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars)

Hey Silversuit, I see you like Freelancer. Good man.

[mezlabor]

All right, I have come to end this debate ONCE AND FOR ALL.


It wouldn't happen.


The only way for Star Wars to get to the Milky Way is for a Wormhole, and SW ships can't detect them, END OF STORY.




*sits back and waits for someone to flame him*

You forgot to mention that as of now Star Wars took place "A long time ago" so that wormhole would have to move you in time thousands of years and move you to "a galaxy far far away "

[Catamount]

You forgot to mention that as of now Star Wars took place "A long time ago" so that wormhole would have to move you in time thousands of years and move you to "a galaxy far far away "

Who's to say that the various Star Wars races would still be around in the Star Trek time period as well? Of course by this point one can assume that those races in Star Wars either blew themselves back into the stone age and have had to recover their technology anyways, or have evolved into a form beyond that or humanoids anyways.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Who's to say that the various Star Wars races would still be around in the Star Trek time period as well? Of course by this point one can assume that those races in Star Wars either blew themselves back into the stone age and have had to recover their technology anyways, or have evolved into a form beyond that or humanoids anyways.

Or they overthrew the Empire, re-established the Republic, and went back to their technologically stagnant way of life, ending up in the ST time with little technological advancement. *shrugs*

And no, I'm not dead or anything, I've just been really busy the past couple weeks. I had midterms last week, and was moved to a different department at work last week (entirely different building, even, 'bout a block away from where I was), and have been out of town three of the last four weekends, so I haven't had nearly as much time to split between everything as I would like (or maybe I just had more things to split it between... something like that).

Anyway, things are settling down a bit now, so hopefully I'll be able to get caught up with this thread and dive back into it in the next week or so.

[Catamount]

It's also possible that they came to our galaxy, where their society evolved and they eventually became the Pakleds :)

[jadehorde]

You're making a classic trekkie mistake, trying to infer too much information from the name of something. "light speed" does not literally mean the speed of light. One could easily figure this out by realizing that the speed of light isn't even sufficient to clear a solar system for hours (it takes somewhere in the ballpark of 10 hours just to go from the sun to Pluto, our former outermost planet). A Star Wars hyperdrive is not only much faster than light, but FAR, FAR faster than even warp 9.9 ( which is ~3000*speed of light) as Star Wars ships can cross their galaxy seemingly in the same amount of time it takes a federation vessel just to cross a single sector. Of course I must point out that I'm not aware the the relative size of the Milky Way galaxy compared to the galaxy in Star Wars, and it could very well be significantly smaller, but that that doesn't change much.

That said, you already know that I don't credit the empire with the kind of victory and subjugation of the federation that's proposed by the author of StarDestroyer.net solely because of the technological gap. First, because Star Trek has a few tricks up it's sleeve like transphasic torpedoes (shown to be from the near future in endgame) and materials like carbon neutronium, which would help create better parity between the 2 universes.

More importantly though there's a difference in the mentality of the 2 civilizations that's analogous to that of the British and the Colonials in the American Revolution. In Star Wars, war has always been about who's bigger. You can look at any point in Star Wars history and wars are almost entirely decided by bigger fleets, more powerful force adepts, better technology, superior soldiers, or similar advantages. Even the Rebel Alliance didn't undertake unusual tactics in fighting the empire beyond drawing the sympathy of many of the galaxy's and Empire's best and brightest (Kyle Katarn, Tycho from Rogue squadron, etc etc). Their only real tactic was to engage the empire on a level playing field in battles they could win. They didn't really use or understand Guerilla warfare or display any kind of innovative tactics. That's why in the Battle of Yavin the rebels got totally slaughtered. The only pilots who survived the whole ordeal were Wedge the flying wonder, Luke the force sensitive, and Han, who came in 20 seconds before the battle ended (and who happened to save Luke). Oh and let's not forget that one unnamed Y-Wing too but that changes little.

In Star Trek on the other hand, races understand unconventional warfare very well. Terrans are the quintessential masters of fighting unfairly when conventional strength isn't on our side, and the Bajorans aren't half bad themselves (hence the 2 most dominant races in the Maquis). A war between a (possible) future version of us and the Empire would just prove devastating to the empire, because once we realized we wouldn't be able to fight toe to toe, we'd stop giving them things to shoot at. We'd infiltrate their ranks, we'd covertly plant bombs on their ships and blow them up from the inside while they were docked, we'd fire at them and run into the badlands and watch the storms tear their cruisers apart (if an asteroid will do it, one of those storms CERTAINLY will). Eventually we'd even start stealing and using their superior technology. There would just be no winning it for them.

I normally stay out of these type of endless flamebait...

But I would think the one thing that shifts things from overwhelming speed advantage and higher weapons yields (I ignore the ICS and other outside sources. They were made by clear fanbois, and Lucas' approval doesn't mean squat after the last few movies) would be time travel...and the INSANE number of plot devices locked in the same warehouse as the Ark of the Covenant.

Scalosian water for example. Super speed sufficent to casually dodge phaser fire. Unless you operate by SD.net standards and phasers are CLEARLY not lightspeed given FX shots.

[Zyrious]

You're making a classic trekkie mistake, trying to infer too much information from the name of something. "light speed" does not literally mean the speed of light. One could easily figure this out by realizing that the speed of light isn't even sufficient to clear a solar system for hours (it takes somewhere in the ballpark of 10 hours just to go from the sun to Pluto, our former outermost planet). A Star Wars hyperdrive is not only much faster than light, but FAR, FAR faster than even warp 9.9 ( which is ~3000*speed of light) as Star Wars ships can cross their galaxy seemingly in the same amount of time it takes a federation vessel just to cross a single sector. Of course I must point out that I'm not aware the the relative size of the Milky Way galaxy compared to the galaxy in Star Wars, and it could very well be significantly smaller, but that that doesn't change much.

That said, you already know that I don't credit the empire with the kind of victory and subjugation of the federation that's proposed by the author of StarDestroyer.net solely because of the technological gap. First, because Star Trek has a few tricks up it's sleeve like transphasic torpedoes (shown to be from the near future in endgame) and materials like carbon neutronium, which would help create better parity between the 2 universes.

More importantly though there's a difference in the mentality of the 2 civilizations that's analogous to that of the British and the Colonials in the American Revolution. In Star Wars, war has always been about who's bigger. You can look at any point in Star Wars history and wars are almost entirely decided by bigger fleets, more powerful force adepts, better technology, superior soldiers, or similar advantages. Even the Rebel Alliance didn't undertake unusual tactics in fighting the empire beyond drawing the sympathy of many of the galaxy's and Empire's best and brightest (Kyle Katarn, Tycho from Rogue squadron, etc etc). Their only real tactic was to engage the empire on a level playing field in battles they could win. They didn't really use or understand Guerilla warfare or display any kind of innovative tactics. That's why in the Battle of Yavin the rebels got totally slaughtered. The only pilots who survived the whole ordeal were Wedge the flying wonder, Luke the force sensitive, and Han, who came in 20 seconds before the battle ended (and who happened to save Luke). Oh and let's not forget that one unnamed Y-Wing too but that changes little.

In Star Trek on the other hand, races understand unconventional warfare very well. Terrans are the quintessential masters of fighting unfairly when conventional strength isn't on our side, and the Bajorans aren't half bad themselves (hence the 2 most dominant races in the Maquis). A war between a (possible) future version of us and the Empire would just prove devastating to the empire, because once we realized we wouldn't be able to fight toe to toe, we'd stop giving them things to shoot at. We'd infiltrate their ranks, we'd covertly plant bombs on their ships and blow them up from the inside while they were docked, we'd fire at them and run into the badlands and watch the storms tear their cruisers apart (if an asteroid will do it, one of those storms CERTAINLY will). Eventually we'd even start stealing and using their superior technology. There would just be no winning it for them.


I have to disagree with the last part. Beyond the fact the empire has superior logistics (An entire galaxy supplying endless troops and ships), they are well known for completely destroying any planets that would cause them such trouble. While they may not have the DS at their disposal in this hypothetical, they are not beyond orbital bombardment. Given the federations values with regards to life, the Empire could easily use a tactic of destroying the surface of a planet every week until the terrorist attacks cease. And every time the terrorists take out a ship or brigade, 10 more come through the wormhole as shipyards and cloning facilities (And even normal recruitment centers) pump out more ships and troops.

The Empire will simply overwhelm the federation to such a degree it can't keep it up.

For instance, Al-Quida could never hope to destroy the US no matter how hard they tried. They can **** it off, they can slow it down, but they can't stop it. Look at the recent successes in Iraq via the surge (A strategy involving simply pumping more troops into the area). It would be worse with the Galactic Empire, this is an Empire that doesnt need approval ratings, ruling by fear. They are not above simply vaporizing the surface of an entire planet if it has known terrorists present. And the federation is not willing to lower itself to the depths of attacking targets with civilians present, so they will be limited to defended fortifications unlike a terrorist group.

A mix of Imperial Logistics combined with the fact they can employ more "evil" tactics gives them a huge advantage against those who would dare oppose the Empire. Kill a contingent of Stormtroopers with a IED? every local city within 50 miles is destroyed. Blow up an SSD with a transphasic torpedo in a terrorist raid? Earth's surface is turned to molten lava. If the Empire gains the upperhand and takes out the standing military of the federation, no guerilla warfare is going to destroy the empire.

[OldBoy]

[…] no guerilla warfare is going to destroy the empire.

I know a handful of rebels who say otherwise.

And the Federation values life? Just what brought about the end to the Dominion War? You can't say it wasn't hastened by the genocidal changeling virus developed by their Section 31.

[Zyrious]

I know a handful of rebels who say otherwise.

And the Federation values life? Just what brought about the end to the Dominion War? You can't say it wasn't hastened by the genocidal changeling virus developed by their Section 31.

The rebels didnt win using geurilla warfare. As a matter of fact, it was almost always direct confrontations. The common misconception is that the Rebel Alliance was the equivelant to a terrorist or freedom fighting group. It wasnt. It was called a "Civil War" for a reason. It wasnt just a small group of people. ANH especially highlighted this, many systems in the empire were leaving and joining the Alliance (The Alliance of Rebelling systems, otherwise known as the rebel alliance), The rebels had a full blown fleet, and launched a full blown assault on the DS 2 with their massive Mon Cal ships (With equal and stronger firepower than a Mark 1 Imperial Star Destroyer).

Only with a full frontal massive assault on the Emperor himself did the rebellion win. After his death, the rest of the Imperial controlled systems were able to rebel and remove the imperial presence during the confusion.

And the United Federation of Planets by and large did not condone nor support the Changeling virus. Section 31 is a largely independant entity with a higher status than even the UFP executive branch. They dont need authorization to do what they do, and they are (imo) the only organization that does what needs to be done. They are the only ones who would do mass assaults that could result in the deaths of even millions of their own civilians, however i doubt even *they* would sacrifice Earth.

[intrepidalex]

-If the Empire could get pwned by Ewoks and a few rebels I would say they would easy get pwned by star trek :D

-I doubt a jedi could block a phaser ;)

-if the borg get a hold of a star wars ship say "bye bye, star wars" :p

[RandomRedshirt]

The simple argument in Star Trek vs. Star Wars is this:

In the red corner, sizing in at the the metric mass of a small moon....the DEAAAAATH STAAAAAAAR!

In the blue corner, capable of digesting whole starships.....the DOOOOOOOMSDAY MACHINE!

Gentleman, I want a clean fight. No below the belt shots.

"Let's get ready to rummmmmble!"

:D

(Doomsday Machine wins in a landslide!)

[Zyrious]

The simple argument in Star Trek vs. Star Wars is this:

In the red corner, sizing in at the the metric mass of a small moon....the DEAAAAATH STAAAAAAAR!

In the blue corner, capable of digesting whole starships.....the DOOOOOOOMSDAY MACHINE!

Gentleman, I want a clean fight. No below the belt shots.

"Let's get ready to rummmmmble!"

:D

(Doomsday Machine wins in a landslide!)

Wait, in a battle between something capable of vaporizing entire planets and something capable of destroying ships, the one that can vaporize a planet loses? What?

[RandomRedshirt]

Wait, in a battle between something capable of vaporizing entire planets and something capable of destroying ships, the one that can vaporize a planet loses? What?

The doomsday machine, also referred to as the planet killer, was an automated, self-propelled weapon capable of destroying entire planets.

However, it is probably better known for eating the USS Constellation for breakfast, along with a certain Commodore....

I picked Doomsday Machine to win and Death Star to show, only because the Doomsday Machine is more agile than the Death Star.

[Catamount]

The doomsday machine, also referred to as the planet killer, was an automated, self-propelled weapon capable of destroying entire planets.

However, it is probably better known for eating the USS Constellation for breakfast, along with a certain Commodore....

I picked Doomsday Machine to win and Death Star to show, only because the Doomsday Machine is more agile than the Death Star.

I'd say the Doomsday machine wins just because it's made of neutronium (or was it carbon neutronium) and is probably immune to just about any directed energy weapon or warhead. Of course when it comes to lethality I'd still have to hand it to the Death Star.

[vp21ct]

I'd say the Doomsday machine wins just because it's made of neutronium (or was it carbon neutronium) and is probably immune to just about any directed energy weapon or warhead. Of course when it comes to lethality I'd still have to hand it to the Death Star.

Yeah but not even that Laser could crack that shell, Man that would be one hell of a monster fight in game.

[Catamount]

Hell yeah it would. It's not to say it'd be impossible to destroy, but you'd couldn't just throw a big detonation of energy surge at it and hope. You'd have to design a weapon specifically to break down the molecular structure of neutronium. Phasers and disruptors can do this to much less dense matter, but not to something like that. I suppose in theory if you replaced the death star's super laser with an equivalently powerful disruptor it'd be possible, but even then I don't know.

[starshipcaptain]

StarWars has guns that can kill and stun there just not mentioned for very long
it was in Episode IV or was it in V

but they did sya that something about seting there guns to stun

[Verkruk]

Since we are obviously ignoring the no EU rules then lets have at it.

Section 31, no holds barred, good by Star Wars hello subspace weaponry.
Slipstream tech, transwarp tec, Carbonite reflectors, artificial black holes, the ability to wipe out entire solar systems, cloaking tech that isn't a ship painted black, sensors that can detect things several light years away.
Better PD systems, array systems rather then single hardpoints.

Forcefields that can block laser fire.
Fusion weaponry does nothing to star trek shields.

Medically Star Trek is far more advanced, capable of replacing limbs, organs, spinal cords and entire nervous systems, without butchering clones to do it. Can create genetic supermen.
Replicator systems.

The Q continuum.(and the M)


Star Wars is NOT an advanced era.
They have had the EXACT SAME TECH SINCE KOTOR!!
Hyperdrive was invented so long ago no-on even remembers who created it, and its thought that the original creators of it had ships that were FASTER THEN THE FALCON!

The droids have not changed in thousands of years.
Heck they only just figured out how to create a flesh like covering for them.

And is full o fmore holes then swiss ceese.

And no for the ultimate one liner that is delivered by the master himself.

"Size matters not."

So I guess bigger ISN'T always better.

[Verkruk]

And just for good measure, lets toss Thalaron Radiation into the fray.

[thefreshjedi]

Star Wars
There are no "Red Shirts" in Starwars. "Red" is an "angry color". "Anger" leads to the dark side.
Light sabers in the hand of a true "Force wielder" pwn all.
The creatures in Starwars are cuter and usually friendlier.
The robots in Starwars do not have "human envy" or need to find their "special purpose".
The ships in Star Wars go "pew" "pew" in gun fights.
Darth "anything" usually rules all.
Neutral zone? What the hell is that? No, wait.... are you serious?

Star Trek
There is no Prime Directive in Star Wars, and if there was, it was probably eaten by something.
The "fastest" ship in their galaxy was the Millenium Falcon, and it was "a bucket o' bolts".
Capital ships could be overpowered by smaller ships.... um... wtf?
You had to "ask" someone if they felt okay, you couldn't just flip something open and "invade" their space.
Our creatures do not mess around. They are not cute. They will kill you. Just ask any ensign onboard this ship.
The only "Force" we experience is what is left in our pants after an encounter with the Borg.
No Neutral Zone? Try diplomacy for the win?

[Noonien]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sun_Crusher
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jacen_Solo

Game over Sol system!

[Ambassador.T-Shona]

Star Trek Rules!!!=/\=

[Ambassador.T-Shona]

Star Trek Rules=/\=

[Verkruk]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sun_Crusher
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jacen_Solo

Game over Sol system!


Whats the Sun Crusher going to do?
Ram them while being tractored by a Star Trek capital ship?

It weapon hardpoints can be blasted off you know.

Jacen Solo is weaker then Luke Skywalker. Read the books.
And what is he going to do when his ship can't defend against T-Bombs?
Or subspace weaponry.

Heck for good measure lets not forget that his own sister killed him, and she wasn't near as developed in the force as Jacen was.

[Catamount]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sun_Crusher
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jacen_Solo

Game over Sol system!


A sun crusher really is nothing special. Various Star Trek races have long known how to detonate stars. Also, I can guarantee 100% that the ship's "layered molecular armor" isn't NEAR as strong as neutronium, but then no material I've seen or heard of in the Star Wars universe is.

[hawk_nl]

LoL @ discussion
I like both series
They both have there charms
Star Wars for it's diversity
Star Trek for the organization ( from earth perspective )
( though i think Star Wars Galaxies Sucks... so 1+ for Star Trek so far ;) )

[Verkruk]

LoL @ discussion
I like both series
They both have there charms
Star Wars for it's diversity
Star Trek for the organization ( from earth perspective )
( though i think Star Wars Galaxies Sucks... so 1+ for Star Trek so far ;) )

I love both of them and comparing them is fruitless... but I do it anyways >.<

What I both love and hate about Star Wars is that it can change to suit whatever the authors needs are.
Take the Legacy of the Force series for example.
First Jacen is more powerful then Luke, then Luke is more powerful then... oh wait... nope almost not quite, then he is then he isn't then he is but can't fight him.

Crazy stuff. And I also love that because it allows for more creativity to be in the Star Wars universe.
I read both the Star Wars and the Star Trek books, and 9 times out of 10 the Staar Wars books are a better read.
Star Wars also has a broader following then Star Trek does so it naturally has more to offer from a merchandise perspective. Which can be a big plus. (or a minus where SW: Galaxies is concerned.)

[SilverSuit]

Wait, one question before I reveal the be-all-end-all I just remembered: Is this the two universes (Star Trek vs. Star Wars) colliding in war or just the two factions (Federation vs. Empire) ?

[ParkerHayden]

Coming from someone who is both a major Star Trek and Star Wars fan, I believe the Galactic Empire would win. Reasons:

1) The Empire encompasses nearly the entire galaxy
2) The Empire is focused on war
3) The Star Wars galaxy has been in space for approximately 25,000 years, as opposed to the few hundred years in Trek
4) Sith, Dark Jedi
5) Death Star
6) The Empire has a massive space navy
7) Imperial Walkers (AT-ATs, AT-STs, AT-PTs)
8) Star Destroyers are heavily armed, and 2-1/2 times larger than a Sovereign-Class
9) Hyperdrive is faster than warp

[SilverSuit]

Well, I'm sorry but I simply must drop the bomb: Q.
Need I say more?

[ParkerHayden]

Well, I'm sorry but I simply must drop the bomb: Q.
Need I say more?

I wasn't aware that the Q were in the Federation.

[SilverSuit]

That's why I asked the question, to the OP lol...

[ParkerHayden]

Also, for the record, the Defiant is much too large to go down the Death Star trench.

Just thought I'd nit-pick at that.

[SilverSuit]

No, but a shuttle can... and it would be invincible given the fact that it actually has shields, a luxury which Star Wars doesn't have... :D:D:D:D

[ParkerHayden]

No, but a shuttle can... and it would be invincible given the fact that it actually has shields, a luxury which Star Wars doesn't have... :D:D:D:D
Star Wars does have shields. TIE Fighters, however, don't because they're meant to be cannon fodder.

[Verkruk]

Coming from someone who is both a major Star Trek and Star Wars fan, I believe the Galactic Empire would win. Reasons:

1) The Empire encompasses nearly the entire galaxy

No it doesn't.
The Hapan Empire.
Hutt Space.
The Chiss Empire.
The Yuuzhan Vong.
I could go on, but you should get the picture by now.

2) The Empire is focused on war

And the Federation have been at war how many times and won?
What are the Klingons?
What are the Cardassians?
The Borg?
The Romulans?
The Dominion?

3) The Star Wars galaxy has been in space for approximately 25,000 years, as opposed to the few hundred years in Trek

And have yet to advance in anything.
Hyperdrive has gotten slower since the Rakattan created it.
They still use Turbo Lasers and Ion Cannons, and still can't manage to shield the smaller cannon fodder craft.

4) Sith, Dark Jedi

Shields... if ya can't get in, then so what.
I could expound further but I won't.

5) Death Star

Planet Eater, AKA Doomsday Device.
Dyson Sphere.
Guided Torpedoes that put the ones in Star Wars to shame.
Shuttles.

6) The Empire has a massive space navy

According to which account?
If you are going by the movies or the book, it wasn't big enough that when the entire thing was massed at the 2nd Death Star, it could wipe out a petty rag tag group of Rebel Ships.
And then all other accounts and even the cannon accounts are so full of holes and contradictions its insane.

7) Imperial Walkers (AT-ATs, AT-STs, AT-PTs)

Portable torpedoe launchers. (Photon and Quantum)
Tractor Beams.

8) Star Destroyers are heavily armed, and 2-1/2 times larger than a Sovereign-Class

Lot bigger then that.
But even then they are still sensor blind in many areas. Inaccurate fire. Still using Turbo LASERS.
Slower, meaning the Sovereign could pull a mini warp jump show up behind them and lay waste to it without being touched.

9) Hyperdrive is faster than warp

.5 past light speed...

[Catamount]

No it doesn't.
The Hapan Empire.
Hutt Space.
The Chiss Empire.
The Yuuzhan Vong.
I could go on, but you should get the picture by now.



And the Federation have been at war how many times and won?
What are the Klingons?
What are the Cardassians?
The Borg?
The Romulans?
The Dominion?



And have yet to advance in anything.
Hyperdrive has gotten slower since the Rakattan created it.
They still use Turbo Lasers and Ion Cannons, and still can't manage to shield the smaller cannon fodder craft.



Shields... if ya can't get in, then so what.
I could expound further but I won't.



Planet Eater, AKA Doomsday Device.
Dyson Sphere.
Guided Torpedoes that put the ones in Star Wars to shame.
Shuttles.



According to which account?
If you are going by the movies or the book, it wasn't big enough that when the entire thing was massed at the 2nd Death Star, it could wipe out a petty rag tag group of Rebel Ships.
And then all other accounts and even the cannon accounts are so full of holes and contradictions its insane.



Portable torpedoe launchers. (Photon and Quantum)
Tractor Beams.



Lot bigger then that.
But even then they are still sensor blind in many areas. Inaccurate fire. Still using Turbo LASERS.
Slower, meaning the Sovereign could pull a mini warp jump show up behind them and lay waste to it without being touched.



.5 past light speed...

You know, the more I look into the Trek Vs Wars debate in terms of technology, the more I realize and Star Trek has better parity with Star Wars than I thought, and I certainly don't disagree here on any point, except one. I can't help but scratch my head over the fact that you STILL seem to assume that "light speed" as it's referred to in Star Wars is the speed of light. You've stated this misconception several times before in this thread if I'm not mistaken. Are you completely oblivious to galactic distances? If Star Wars hyperdrives really do top out at or a little above the speed of light, then explain to me how Obi-Wan travels from Coruscant to Kamino in the out rim when it would take literally hundreds or even thousands of times his entire life span to make that trip at one and a half times the speed of light. Is he protected by some sort of overbearing relativity effect? Funny then how those around him don't seem to age either. The use of the words "light speed" in some of the older movies has do to with absolutely NOTHING more than the lack of sophistication in audiences.

[Verkruk]

You know, the more I look into the Trek Vs Wars debate in terms of technology, the more I realize and Star Trek has better parity with Star Wars than I thought, and I certainly don't disagree here on any point, except one. I can't help but scratch my head over the fact that you STILL seem to assume that "light speed" as it's referred to in Star Wars is the speed of light. You've stated this misconception several times before in this thread if I'm not mistaken. Are you completely oblivious to galactic distances? If Star Wars hyperdrives really do top out at or a little above the speed of light, then explain to me how Obi-Wan travels from Coruscant to Kamino in the out rim when it would take literally hundreds or even thousands of times his entire life span to make that trip at one and a half times the speed of light. Is he protected by some sort of overbearing relativity effect? Funny then how those around him don't seem to age either. The use of the words "light speed" in some of the older movies has do to with absolutely NOTHING more than the lack of sophistication in audiences.

I say that light speed in Star Wars is light speed for a few reasons.
Lack of concrete evidence.

No-one quite seems to know just how much of the Galaxy the Empire really controlled.
Sure, by a lot of accounts its everything. But since we have brought the EU into the argument(and even if we didn't) there is evidence that this is not true.

I've read some literature that leads me to believe that the Empire is located in a relatively new section of the universe. And is the controlling faction in a very small galaxy.
Then I have read others that seem to have it being a small yet densely populated, planet rich Arm of a galaxy, rather then the whole thing.
And then there is the literature that makes it seem as if it owns something the size of the Milky Way Galaxy.

So really it comes from a lack of hard evidence.

But this doesn't mean that I can't see it from the other side.
It may be that the Star Wars universe functions in a way that has Light Speed is the pinnacle and anything past that is simply... incredible. But then... how do you explain the fact that the Rakattan moved even faster?

To many variables for "me" to say.
And I think even George Lucas said it was only lightspeed, but that he didn't know either. >.< really irks me at times.

[starshipcaptain]

if only Tie fighter had sheilds and phasers that would improve its comabat ability

[DFawkes]

If, somehow, a portal opened between galaxies, I wouldn't put money on either side. It was supposed to be "long ago", so they may have made technological leaps. I doubt it though, they make few advances in SW.

What does sway me is R2 units - they seem to be very adept at fixing things. I think they're better than Starfleet repair teams, so a SW ship would hold up better when their shields are down. Apart from that, I'm not sure.

[Catamount]

I say that light speed in Star Wars is light speed for a few reasons.
Lack of concrete evidence.

No-one quite seems to know just how much of the Galaxy the Empire really controlled.
Sure, by a lot of accounts its everything. But since we have brought the EU into the argument(and even if we didn't) there is evidence that this is not true.

I've read some literature that leads me to believe that the Empire is located in a relatively new section of the universe. And is the controlling faction in a very small galaxy.
Then I have read others that seem to have it being a small yet densely populated, planet rich Arm of a galaxy, rather then the whole thing.
And then there is the literature that makes it seem as if it owns something the size of the Milky Way Galaxy.

So really it comes from a lack of hard evidence.

But this doesn't mean that I can't see it from the other side.
It may be that the Star Wars universe functions in a way that has Light Speed is the pinnacle and anything past that is simply... incredible. But then... how do you explain the fact that the Rakattan moved even faster?

To many variables for "me" to say.
And I think even George Lucas said it was only lightspeed, but that he didn't know either. >.< really irks me at times.

Well, first off I looked it up and apparently "light speed" is a slang term for using a class 1 hyperdrive. It's true that no scale is ever really given in Star Wars, but any way you slice it, C just isn't fast enough to do what we see in the movies. It's not that the speed of light isn't fast enough to cross a large galaxy, it's that it's not even fast enough to travel between 2 neighboring stars! To get from Sol to Proxima Centuari (our nearest star) would take about 4 years at the speed of light. That means that in order for a journey between 2 star systems to even be possible at the speed of light in the Star Wars galaxy, star systems would litterally have to neighbor each other with no significant space in between. They'd have to be so close, that every single planet in the Star Wars universe would literally be fought over by the gravitational pull of other stars, and every world would be constantly bathed in daylight from other neighboring systems. To put it all very simply, in order for hyperdrives to be funtional at only the speed of light, star systems within Star Wars would have to be absolutely impossibly close. The speed of light is just slow on a galactic scale. It's like trying to claim that the fastest car ever created drives at 1.5 MPH. You just know that that can't be right.

Hyperdrives go at the speed at which they go. We know it isn't C, but we don't know how fast it is. That said, there's nothing magical about their velocity. It's just a quantifiable rate at which ships travel through that galaxy, and there's nothing to say that the Rakatan's force driven hyperdrives couldn't go faster. As I said "light speed" is just a slang term for a given velocity, and there's nothing magical about it other than the fact that it's apparently a benchmark.

[ashe]

Geek sense tingling :p:p:p

[Catamount]

Geek sense tingling :p:p:p

Well at least you know it's working :p

[ashe]

Actually, I think this thread may have sprained it.

I love it!

[ParkerHayden]

No it doesn't.
The Hapan Empire.
Hutt Space.
The Chiss Empire.
The Yuuzhan Vong.
I could go on, but you should get the picture by now.
The Yuuzhan Vong are OUTSIDE the galaxy.
Hutt Space, the Hapan, and the Chiss aren't nearly as large as the Empire.



And the Federation have been at war how many times and won?
What are the Klingons?
What are the Cardassians?
The Borg?
The Romulans?
The Dominion?
Actually, the only ones out of that list that the Federation had an actual all-out war with are the Dominion/Cardassians (and they won out of a stroke of luck).



They still use Turbo Lasers and Ion Cannons, and still can't manage to shield the smaller cannon fodder craft.
The Empire uses TIE fighters for canon fodder because they're cheap. And since they're cheap, they're in VERY large numbers, and are meant to overwhelm an enemy. For instance: say you're walking on a road, and you see a wasp coming towards you. You swat it away. Now you see a swarm of wasps coming towards you. You're screwed. They're faster, and could possibly kill you in those numbers. Same with TIE fighters. They may not have much to them, but they're faster than your average fighter and can "sting" like hell in large numbers.




Shields... if ya can't get in, then so what.
I could expound further but I won't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkBiYpD3SDc

Honestly, even I find that absurd. But Sith and Dark Jedi can do many things. Also, there are shields in Star Wars. They're just not as visible as they are in Trek. I'm sure the majority of the fanbase knows, for instance, that the two bulbs on the top of the bridges of Star Destroyers are shield generators.



Planet Eater, AKA Doomsday Device.
I'm sorry, I never realized they were in the Federation.


If you are going by the movies or the book, it wasn't big enough that when the entire thing was massed at the 2nd Death Star, it could wipe out a petty rag tag group of Rebel Ships.
That wasn't the entire Imperial fleet. Yeah, I can see it now:

Palpatine: "Every ship in the Empire must be at Endor so that we can wipe out that puny Rebel fleet that I'm scheming to destroy."
Random Grand Admiral: "I really don't think that's wise, my lord. What about all the unprotected systems? The Hutts are crawling up our ass!"
Palpatine: "DO IT!"



Portable torpedoe launchers. (Photon and Quantum)
Tractor Beams.
Assuming they can get close enough to use them. And I wasn't aware that starships could use their tractor beams that far up in orbit on something on the surface of a planet.


Lot bigger then that.
But even then they are still sensor blind in many areas. Inaccurate fire. Still using Turbo LASERS.
Slower, meaning the Sovereign could pull a mini warp jump show up behind them and lay waste to it without being touched.
Perhaps. Turbo lasers are slow, I'll give you that, but do you know the power of them?



.5 past light speed...
Only partially correct. There are different hyperdrives. Some ships can go considerably faster than others. Hell, several ships in Star Wars can go across the galaxy in one to three weeks. As opposed to the Federation's 30-something years?

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Wait, one question before I reveal the be-all-end-all I just remembered: Is this the two universes (Star Trek vs. Star Wars) colliding in war or just the two factions (Federation vs. Empire) ?

Mostly just the two factions was my intention, though if you've an argument for an expanding conflict that would encompass more than just the Federation and the Empire, we'd be glad to hear it.


Coming from someone who is both a major Star Trek and Star Wars fan, I believe the Galactic Empire would win. Reasons:

1) The Empire encompasses nearly the entire galaxy
2) The Empire is focused on war
3) The Star Wars galaxy has been in space for approximately 25,000 years, as opposed to the few hundred years in Trek
4) Sith, Dark Jedi
5) Death Star
6) The Empire has a massive space navy
7) Imperial Walkers (AT-ATs, AT-STs, AT-PTs)
8) Star Destroyers are heavily armed, and 2-1/2 times larger than a Sovereign-Class
9) Hyperdrive is faster than warp

Woohoo! Numbered bullet points! You, sir, get a cookie. } ; = 8 )

1. There is much evidence that contradicts this, and some that indicates that the Empire and the Republic ti spawned from actually occupies only a small section of a modest-sized galaxy (average galaxy size is something on the order of 15,000 lightyears in diameter, I believe, where as our galaxy is 100,000+ lightyears across). Further, we have a quote from the A New Hope novelization that establishes the Empire at or around 1 million worlds (whether or not they are all inhabited, and to what degree is not established, though).

2. That is incorrect. The Empire is not focused on war, far from it. The Empire is focused on suppressing rebellion, a very different kind of conflict from a major war with another power. The closest thing the Empire has known to that kind of war was the Galactic Civil War that spawned the Empire, and with the assassination of its leaders shortly after the formation of the Empire and the consolidation of Palpatine's power, the remaining Separatist forces quickly fell before the Empire or went underground to form the foundation of the Rebellion. In the twenty+ years since, the Empire has focused on maintaining control of its territory and suppressing internal uprising, not waging war against a foreign power.

3. There is evidence to suggest that the Republic has been around for only a thousand years, with an unknown level of space travel and expansion before that point.

4. There are only ever two SIth lords at a time, and the 'dark jedi' are not part of the film canon

5. Tri-cobalt torpedoes, and the various special weapons and tricks Starfleet personnel are good at coming up with

6. The actual size of the Imperial Navy is very questionable, since we've never seen more than a few dozen on-screen at a time, even at Endor, and Solo's reference to "A thousand ships with more firepower than has ever existed..." on the unbelievability of the Death Star's main weapon indicates that a thousand ships is an extremely large number (though his statement was quite clearly hyperbolic, making it less than reliable as an accurate measure).

7. AT-STs didn't do so well against teddy bears with log traps, and I doubt they'll do so well against photon grenades and heavy phaser emplacements. Or even just a hand phaser, given the higher yield effects demonstrated by hand phasers

8. The power of SW weapons compared to ST weapons is highly questionable, and their accuracy is attrocious, where as Trek ships are much more maneuverable and much faster, with vastly superior weapons ranges and probably superior firepower and correspondingly superior defenses.

9. The comparison between hyperdrive and warp speed is highly debatable.

[ParkerHayden]

Woohoo! Numbered bullet points! You, sir, get a cookie. } ; = 8 )

1. There is much evidence that contradicts this, and some that indicates that the Empire and the Republic ti spawned from actually occupies only a small section of a modest-sized galaxy (average galaxy size is something on the order of 15,000 lightyears in diameter, I believe, where as our galaxy is 100,000+ lightyears across). Further, we have a quote from the A New Hope novelization that establishes the Empire at or around 1 million worlds (whether or not they are all inhabited, and to what degree is not established, though).

2. That is incorrect. The Empire is not focused on war, far from it. The Empire is focused on suppressing rebellion, a very different kind of conflict from a major war with another power. The closest thing the Empire has known to that kind of war was the Galactic Civil War that spawned the Empire, and with the assassination of its leaders shortly after the formation of the Empire and the consolidation of Palpatine's power, the remaining Separatist forces quickly fell before the Empire or went underground to form the foundation of the Rebellion. In the twenty+ years since, the Empire has focused on maintaining control of its territory and suppressing internal uprising, not waging war against a foreign power.

3. There is evidence to suggest that the Republic has been around for only a thousand years, with an unknown level of space travel and expansion before that point.

4. There are only ever two SIth lords at a time, and the 'dark jedi' are not part of the film canon

5. Tri-cobalt torpedoes, and the various special weapons and tricks Starfleet personnel are good at coming up with

6. The actual size of the Imperial Navy is very questionable, since we've never seen more than a few dozen on-screen at a time, even at Endor, and Solo's reference to "A thousand ships with more firepower than has ever existed..." on the unbelievability of the Death Star's main weapon indicates that a thousand ships is an extremely large number (though his statement was quite clearly hyperbolic, making it less than reliable as an accurate measure).

7. AT-STs didn't do so well against teddy bears with log traps, and I doubt they'll do so well against photon grenades and heavy phaser emplacements. Or even just a hand phaser, given the higher yield effects demonstrated by hand phasers

8. The power of SW weapons compared to ST weapons is highly questionable, and their accuracy is attrocious, where as Trek ships are much more maneuverable and much faster, with vastly superior weapons ranges and probably superior firepower and correspondingly superior defenses.

9. The comparison between hyperdrive and warp speed is highly debatable.
1. I always thought of the Empire controlling about 5/8 of the Galaxy, of course, that's me.

2. Well, considering it's controlled by a power-hungry Sith Lord with many, many soldiers in his hands, I kinda dismiss that.

3. The "Old" Republic was founded 25,000 years before the Battle of Yavin.

4. While that is true, the Emperor had many Force Sensitive beings under his and Vader's "teachings". Mara Jade, Galen Marek, Lumiya, along with several others I'd rather not name.

5. Could've used a lot of those in the Dominion War, imo. Particularly at the Second Battle of Chin'toka.

6. Well, since the Empire has to police, as you said, "1 million worlds", I would think they'd need a large navy for defense.

7. But they did wipe out an entire Rebel base. (Granted, that was mostly AT-ATs, but you get the idea)

8. I agree with the unknown comparisons in firepower. That is all.

9. Like I said in an above post, several ships in Star Wars can get across the galaxy in a few weeks. I looked it up, and the Star Wars Galaxy is 120,000 light years across. Quite similar to "ours".

Also, thanks for the cookie.

[Roberto]

2. That is incorrect. The Empire is not focused on war, far from it. The Empire is focused on suppressing rebellion, a very different kind of conflict from a major war with another power. The closest thing the Empire has known to that kind of war was the Galactic Civil War that spawned the Empire, and with the assassination of its leaders shortly after the formation of the Empire and the consolidation of Palpatine's power, the remaining Separatist forces quickly fell before the Empire or went underground to form the foundation of the Rebellion. In the twenty+ years since, the Empire has focused on maintaining control of its territory and suppressing internal uprising, not waging war against a foreign power.


This is probably the most astute thing I have seen in this post for a very long time. There is an astronomical difference between suppressing a rebellion and being a full time war-machine. Even still, I'm not sure switching to a "pure" war setting would take a large amount of time for such militaristic controlled "state". Regardless of that - it was still something very correct in stating, beyond whatever time tables it would take to switch to a militaristic (conquering) expeditionary force.

[Catamount]

Actually, the only ones out of that list that the Federation had an actual all-out war with are the Dominion/Cardassians (and they won out of a stroke of luck).


And Star Wars had how many major wars from the end of the Jedi civil war to the End of the galactic civil war? 3? congratulations on your 3 wars in 4000 years. Now I won't claim that peace is a bad thing, the Republic should be commended, but given that they've only fought in 3 big wars in that time frame, one of which was controlled by Palpatine who intended for the separatists to lose anyways (and so wasn't a war so much as a staged event as part of a power play) and the other which was just a small collection of guerrilla battles that the Rebel Alliance won not by seriously challenging the empire as much as just assassinating the Emperor. The third war is one that wookiepedia indicated between 1,250 and 1,230 BBY called the "sictis wars" which I know nothing about beyond their occurrence, but the point simple is there's nothing to indicate that either the Empire or the New Republic have any idea how to fight a real war and win it. To be fair, there's also nothing to indicate they can't although the incompetence of the Empire at times was absolutely astounding.

The Empire uses TIE fighters for canon fodder because they're cheap. And since they're cheap, they're in VERY large numbers, and are meant to overwhelm an enemy. For instance: say you're walking on a road, and you see a wasp coming towards you. You swat it away. Now you see a swarm of wasps coming towards you. You're screwed. They're faster, and could possibly kill you in those numbers. Same with TIE fighters. They may not have much to them, but they're faster than your average fighter and can "sting" like hell in large numbers.


There's a key difference between wasps and tie fighters, though. You have to train pilots for TIEs. I'm sure the Empire was smart enough to keep their best pilots for shielded craft like assault gunboats, but that still doesn't override the fact that every time a TIE fighter is lost a pilot is lost as well who's going to probably take a lot longer to replace than the fighter itself. The only way to counter this is just to have ridiculously low standards of training for tie pilots and hope you don't lose anyone with real talent. Still, how many pilots like Tycho Celchu (those that didn't join the Alliance that is) have been killed in TIEs by stray lasers or lucky shots? Low training standards for TIE pilots would do a lot to explain the ineptitude of the pilots in certain battles though. For instance, how is it that an absolute swarm of TIE fighters and interceptors that literally stretched the entire field of view of the Rebel pilots at Endor wasn't able to effectively neutralize those Rebel pilots in a matter of seconds? It shouldn't matter if they were unshielded, or even poor performing (which TIEs aren't anyways), when you outnumber the rebels by a probably factor of anywhere from 10 to 100, most of those Rebel pilots shouldn't have even survived the first pass by TIEs unless those TIE pilots were just plain incapable.

As for Jedi/Sith, they aren't a factor. Mace Windu was right when he said the Jedi weren't soldiers, they just don't have the numbers. Even in the Jedi Civil War by far the vast majority of those fighting weren't force sensitives, but rather just grunts and, crews for ships, etc, that is if you believe the world portrayed in KOTOR. It's true that the Federation doesn't have force sensitives, but the whole whopping 100 or so that Star Wars can summon wouldn't make much of a difference, especially since we've seen that they are far from impervious to normal weaponry in both Episode II AND Episode III.

Come to think of it, the Death Star really wouldn't be an issue either. It's totally unshielded, and it's size means that it appears slow at sub-light to an outside observer,which makes it easy to hit. 50 Akira class starships firing their total compliment of photon torpedoes from a couple lightyears away (torpedoes are warp-capable for short time if launched at warp and are guided) over a couple dozen seconds would reduce the Death Star to nothing but the galaxy's most impressive fireworks show. Even if each ship only fired 50 torpedoes, that'd still be 2500 type 6 photon torpedoes that have a possible theoretical yield of 1000 megatons each. You can't argue with that kind of firepower.

As for the size of the Imperial fleet, we don't really know how big it is in cannon, but Starfleet alone has multiple fleets of hundreds and hundreds of vessels in the Dominion War, which means it's probably total starship number is probably anywhere from a couple thousands ships to 10,000+ vessels. That doesn't even include the equally strong Klingon or Romulan fleets. That also doesn't take into account the other races that might ally with Starfleet if an invasion of the Alpha-Quadrant was ever staged by the Empire (the Federation would never be the aggressors in such a war).

Perhaps. Turbo lasers are slow, I'll give you that, but do you know the power of them?


By all indications? Equivalent to the power of any average Star Trek beam weapon. I don't know the exact figures, but cannon suggests a pretty much equivalent level of weaponry between the 2. Now do YOU have any indications of the power of a quantum torpedo. I won't even get into transphasic torpedoes because it's only fair that if we're not bringing the Star Wars EU into this we should keep the federation at 2370s tech levels as well.

The ONLY area I might hand victory to the Empire in hands down based on canon is ground combat, but then we don't know what various Federation worlds have up their sleave. Ground combat has never been addressed in Star Trek significantly, but based on the general level of tech shown by the Federation there is NO reason to assume they aren't perfectly capable of developing their own mechanized infantry units or other heavy weapons, only the Federation would show a little more competence in doing so than the Empire did when it made the AT-AT. An incredibly slow, ridiculously top heavy mech... I've seen some poorly implemented technology by militaries in my day (the V-22 Osprey comes to mind) but the AT-AT just takes the cake there. It's not just top-heavy, it has very tall, skinny legs that give the AT-AT a center of gravity so high that a stiff breeze should knock it over, let alone damage to one of those rather vulnerable looking legs. It's true underpowered lasers by under-equipped Rebels didn't damage them, but imagine what a warhead based weapon like a portable photon torpedo would do to cripple on of those legs? I don't really picture seeing the Federation ever running around with Mechwarrior Madcats, but if a war with a race so adept at ground combat as those in the Empire ever broke out, I can guarantee Starfleet would come up with some pretty innovative stuff.

[ParkerHayden]

And Star Wars had how many major wars from the end of the Jedi civil war to the End of the galactic civil war? 3? congratulations on your 3 wars in 4000 years. Now I won't claim that peace is a bad thing, the Republic should be commended, but given that they've only fought in 3 big wars in that time frame, one of which was controlled by Palpatine who intended for the separatists to lose anyways (and so wasn't a war so much as a staged event as part of a power play) and the other which was just a small collection of guerrilla battles that the Rebel Alliance won not by seriously challenging the empire as much as just assassinating the Emperor. The third war is one that wookiepedia indicated between 1,250 and 1,230 BBY called the "sictis wars" which I know nothing about beyond their occurrence, but the point simple is there's nothing to indicate that either the Empire or the New Republic have any idea how to fight a real war and win it. To be fair, there's also nothing to indicate they can't although the incompetence of the Empire at times was absolutely astounding.
You also forgot the Stark-Hyperspace War, the Mandalorian Wars, and probably a few others I can't name off the top of my head.



how is it that an absolute swarm of TIE fighters and interceptors that literally stretched the entire field of view of the Rebel pilots at Endor wasn't able to effectively neutralize those Rebel pilots in a matter of seconds? It shouldn't matter if they were unshielded, or even poor performing (which TIEs aren't anyways), when you outnumber the rebels by a probably factor of anywhere from 10 to 100, most of those Rebel pilots shouldn't have even survived the first pass by TIEs unless those TIE pilots were just plain incapable.
That's really more of a production thing. I mean, would you want the "last" battle in the movies to last a few minutes?

As for Jedi/Sith, they aren't a factor. Mace Windu was right when he said the Jedi weren't soldiers, they just don't have the numbers. Even in the Jedi Civil War by far the vast majority of those fighting weren't force sensitives, but rather just grunts and, crews for ships, etc, that is if you believe the world portrayed in KOTOR. It's true that the Federation doesn't have force sensitives, but the whole whopping 100 or so that Star Wars can summon wouldn't make much of a difference, especially since we've seen that they are far from impervious to normal weaponry in both Episode II AND Episode III. True, but I can't really see Starfleet officers successfully incapacitating a Dark Jedi that managed to infiltrate their ship/starbase/city/etc.

Come to think of it, the Death Star really wouldn't be an issue either. It's totally unshielded, and it's size means that it appears slow at sub-light to an outside observer,which makes it easy to hit. 50 Akira class starships firing their total compliment of photon torpedoes from a couple lightyears away (torpedoes are warp-capable for short time if launched at warp and are guided) over a couple dozen seconds would reduce the Death Star to nothing but the galaxy's most impressive fireworks show. Even if each ship only fired 50 torpedoes, that'd still be 2500 type 6 photon torpedoes that have a possible theoretical yield of 1000 megatons each. You can't argue with that kind of firepower.
The Death Star was made primarily for defense against capital ships. It's a space fortress for a reason. And just because it doesn't have shielding doesn't mean that it can't take a hit, or several dozen hits.

As for the size of the Imperial fleet, we don't really know how big it is in cannon, but Starfleet alone has multiple fleets of hundreds and hundreds of vessels in the Dominion War, which means it's probably total starship number is probably anywhere from a couple thousands ships to 10,000+ vessels. That doesn't even include the equally strong Klingon or Romulan fleets. That also doesn't take into account the other races that might ally with Starfleet if an invasion of the Alpha-Quadrant was ever staged by the Empire (the Federation would never be the aggressors in such a war).
The Empire has more systems to keep under their control. I'm sure it'd be a considerably large amount since they use "fear" to keep their citizens in line. One million worlds, perhaps a small fleet at each inhabited one, and what do you get? Of course, that still leaves as to how many worlds are populated, but I can assume that since the Empire has terraforming technology, I'm sure a great majority are.

I don't really picture seeing the Federation ever running around with Mechwarrior Madcats, but if a war with a race so adept at ground combat as those in the Empire ever broke out, I can guarantee Starfleet would come up with some pretty innovative stuff.
If they had the time. ;)

[Verkruk]

You also forgot the Stark-Hyperspace War, the Mandalorian Wars, and probably a few others I can't name off the top of my head.

Only the Mando wars were really worth mentioning.
The hyperspace one... was lame.

True, but I can't really see Starfleet officers successfully incapacitating a Dark Jedi that managed to infiltrate their ship/starbase/city/etc.

Transporters locked. GG for poor sith badies.

The Death Star was made primarily for defense against capital ships. It's a space fortress for a reason. And just because it doesn't have shielding doesn't mean that it can't take a hit, or several dozen hits.

Actually it wasn't made for any of those reasons. It was made for fear, and because Palpatine was a super weapon junkie.
It also was to serve the purpose of holding entire systems by itself. Due to its immense size it was capable of supporting itself and entire fleets of starships all by its lonesome.

If they had the time. ;)

Wouldn't need the time.
Planet based shielding. Planet based weaponry, capable of crippling or flat out destroying capital ships and starbases. APV (Armed personnel carriers) the Feds are no slackers when it comes to defense.
They would make what the Rebels put up look like a cardboard box.

[Verkruk]

Well, first off I looked it up and apparently "light speed" is a slang term for using a class 1 hyperdrive. It's true that no scale is ever really given in Star Wars, but any way you slice it, C just isn't fast enough to do what we see in the movies. It's not that the speed of light isn't fast enough to cross a large galaxy, it's that it's not even fast enough to travel between 2 neighboring stars! To get from Sol to Proxima Centuari (our nearest star) would take about 4 years at the speed of light. That means that in order for a journey between 2 star systems to even be possible at the speed of light in the Star Wars galaxy, star systems would litterally have to neighbor each other with no significant space in between. They'd have to be so close, that every single planet in the Star Wars universe would literally be fought over by the gravitational pull of other stars, and every world would be constantly bathed in daylight from other neighboring systems. To put it all very simply, in order for hyperdrives to be funtional at only the speed of light, star systems within Star Wars would have to be absolutely impossibly close. The speed of light is just slow on a galactic scale. It's like trying to claim that the fastest car ever created drives at 1.5 MPH. You just know that that can't be right.

Hyperdrives go at the speed at which they go. We know it isn't C, but we don't know how fast it is. That said, there's nothing magical about their velocity. It's just a quantifiable rate at which ships travel through that galaxy, and there's nothing to say that the Rakatan's force driven hyperdrives couldn't go faster. As I said "light speed" is just a slang term for a given velocity, and there's nothing magical about it other than the fact that it's apparently a benchmark.

After giving it some more thought.
It may be that .5 is indicative of an exponential increase in speed rather then say .5 past light speed.

Its more likely that they have stumbled on a stable wormhole or slipstream propulsion system.

[Verkruk]

The Yuuzhan Vong are OUTSIDE the galaxy.
Hutt Space, the Hapan, and the Chiss aren't nearly as large as the Empire.

And yet the Empire and all its size and glory couldn't even take the Hutts space away from them?
And didn't dare challenge the Hapan Empire because of the amount of casualties they would take?
And now when they lose both Death Stars and their leaders, they crawl away into a small section of space, that somehow contains all their thousand upon thousand of ISD and other combat ships?
It just doesn't make sense. Even when taking the EU into account.

Actually, the only ones out of that list that the Federation had an actual all-out war with are the Dominion/Cardassians (and they won out of a stroke of luck).

They had an all out war with both the Romulans and the Klingons in the past.
And it is often hinted at that the Federation did at one point go to war with Cardassia, won but let them keep their space on account that they would not take any further aggressive action against the Federation or its allies.
This would also explain why after so long the Cardassians begin to test the resolve of the Federation.

The Empire uses TIE fighters for canon fodder because they're cheap. And since they're cheap, they're in VERY large numbers, and are meant to overwhelm an enemy. For instance: say you're walking on a road, and you see a wasp coming towards you. You swat it away. Now you see a swarm of wasps coming towards you. You're screwed. They're faster, and could possibly kill you in those numbers. Same with TIE fighters. They may not have much to them, but they're faster than your average fighter and can "sting" like hell in large numbers.

A single Galaxy class starship could take out a Super Star Destroyers compliment of TIE fighters.
Better PD systems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkBiYpD3SDc

Honestly, even I find that absurd. But Sith and Dark Jedi can do many things. Also, there are shields in Star Wars. They're just not as visible as they are in Trek. I'm sure the majority of the fanbase knows, for instance, that the two bulbs on the top of the bridges of Star Destroyers are shield generators.

The amount of power that he has... only he Yoda, Luke and a very few other named Jedi have ever actively influenced a ship like that.

I'm sorry, I never realized they were in the Federation.

They have a few. Later they even use one against a Borg Super Cube.

That wasn't the entire Imperial fleet. Yeah, I can see it now:

Palpatine: "Every ship in the Empire must be at Endor so that we can wipe out that puny Rebel fleet that I'm scheming to destroy."
Random Grand Admiral: "I really don't think that's wise, my lord. What about all the unprotected systems? The Hutts are crawling up our ass!"
Palpatine: "DO IT!"

Palpatine would. It was part of his problem.

Assuming they can get close enough to use them. And I wasn't aware that starships could use their tractor beams that far up in orbit on something on the surface of a planet.

Yes they can use them from space.
But I was talking more of the shuttle variety and the planet based versions.

Perhaps. Turbo lasers are slow, I'll give you that, but do you know the power of them?

If you are going to mention a certain .net site then don't.
The numbers there are so inflated and unrealistic that its beyond stupid.
A single blast from an X-Wing should be able to take out entire continents and small moons according to that site.

Only partially correct. There are different hyperdrives. Some ships can go considerably faster than others. Hell, several ships in Star Wars can go across the galaxy in one to three weeks. As opposed to the Federation's 30-something years?

So?
There are different versions of the Federation Warp engines as well.

Slipstream tech, on the verge. No real reason to develop atm.
Transwarp tech. On hold due to the transfer of power that it would entail.

What people fail to account for with the Federation is the amount of holding power they display.

They have in their possession technology that could make them the Alpha quadrant ultimate super power and that could have ended the Dominion War almost before it had began.
And then they let things drop to the side that could tip the balance of power in their favor by wide margins.

Lol, they even let the Kilgons and Romulans keep one of the most devasting "weapons" to themselves.
And then said, "We won't use it."
Bone heads closed themselves out of cloaking tech. Despite being capable of building a better unit then the other powers can.

In the face of such a threat.
Where not only the Federations existence was at stake, but also the entire alpha quadrant.
I think we would see a lot of those self stoppers removed.

Cloaking tech would become common place.
Sub space weaponry would see some use. Limited but still used.
Slipstream and Transwarp tech research and implementation would be accelerated.

The Empire just simply is to large to compete with that.

[ParkerHayden]

Only the Mando wars were really worth mentioning.
The hyperspace one... was lame.
True, partially.



Transporters locked. GG for poor sith badies.
Touché.



Actually it wasn't made for any of those reasons. It was made for fear, and because Palpatine was a super weapon junkie.
Yes, but it's to be feared for a reason. Not just for decimating planets, but for it's sheer strength in defense and innumerable Imperial Naval and other militaristic personnel on board.



Planet based shielding. Planet based weaponry, capable of crippling or flat out destroying capital ships and starbases. APV (Armed personnel carriers) the Feds are no slackers when it comes to defense.
They would make what the Rebels put up look like a cardboard box.
Didn't stop the Dominion's raid on Earth.

[Catamount]

You also forgot the Stark-Hyperspace War, the Mandalorian Wars, and probably a few others I can't name off the top of my head.

The Stark-Hyperspace war is described on Wookiepedia as "a small regional military conflict" that "was fought almost entirely in the Qotile system". That's hardly a broad conflict. The Mandalorian wars predate the Jedi Civil War, and are therefore out of the time frame I outlined. That still leaves the gap.

That's really more of a production thing. I mean, would you want the "last" battle in the movies to last a few minutes?

True, but irrelevant. It's still canon. If the only way to make a good movie is to make the Empire incompetent, then so be it. Incompetent they are, regardless of the reason.

True, but I can't really see Starfleet officers successfully incapacitating a Dark Jedi that managed to infiltrate their ship/starbase/city/etc.

You should watch Star Wars Episode II then. An entire army of Jedi were on the verge of being wiped out before a large conventional army (the clones) bailed them out.

The Death Star was made primarily for defense against capital ships. It's a space fortress for a reason. And just because it doesn't have shielding doesn't mean that it can't take a hit, or several dozen hits.

I didn't say several dozen hits. I just described a long-range assault on the Death Star equivalent to several complete planetary bombardments (thousands of photon torpedoes). Trust me, it would not survive unless guarded by the Imperial fleet, which would then make it more of a liability than anything. Instead of one sitting duck, you'd have a large space station and 100 Star Destroyers just BEGGING to be hit with a Cardassian Dreadnought missile. That single weapon wouldn't obliterate the entire force, but it would obliterate the Death Star and probably cause moderate-severe damage to most of it's escorts (depending on proximity).

The Empire has more systems to keep under their control. I'm sure it'd be a considerably large amount since they use "fear" to keep their citizens in line. One million worlds, perhaps a small fleet at each inhabited one, and what do you get? Of course, that still leaves as to how many worlds are populated, but I can assume that since the Empire has terraforming technology, I'm sure a great majority are.


That isn't really what we observe though. The whole reason the Rebel Alliance were successful in their hit and run missions on unguarded convoys was because the Imperial fleet was too thin to even guard every target of value, let alone be part of the garrison at every inhabited world. Instead what is more likely is just the there are a small number of ships assigned to an area of space who can then hyperspace to wherever they need to go if trouble erupts. This isn't impractical given the speed at which Star Wars ships can travel (considerably faster than normal warp by any reasonable assumption). That's certainly the way things seem to happen. Trouble erupts somewhere and the local imperial garrison arrives within a few minutes with a capital ship or 2. The reason that there were 2 star destroyers so quickly available to pursue the Millennium Falcon in orbit of Tatooine was most likely that they were there as part of the investigation into the disappearance of the Death Star plans.

If they had the time. ;)

Oh we shall see, Imperial... We shall see... :p

[ParkerHayden]

And yet the Empire and all its size and glory couldn't even take the Hutts space away from them?
And didn't dare challenge the Hapan Empire because of the amount of casualties they would take?
I think the Hutts and the Empire have some sort of agreement going, but I'm not entirely sure. But knowing Imperial arrogance, they probably thought that the Hutts and Hapan weren't worth their time.



They had an all out war with both the Romulans and the Klingons in the past.
The only open war with the Romulans I can think of was pre-Federation.

The first war with the Klingons lasted, what, an hour?
And the second lasted about a year.

A single Galaxy class starship could take out a Super Star Destroyers compliment of TIE fighters.
Better PD systems.
Probably, but I imagine that many TIEs attack a Galaxy-Class like a person trying to swat away a swarm of flying insects. You could get them all, but it's doubtful. It'd at least take you a huge amount of time.

The amount of power that he has... only he Yoda, Luke and a very few other named Jedi have ever actively influenced a ship like that.
Ha, true. Like I said: even I thought it was absurd.

They have a few. Later they even use one against a Borg Super Cube.
Proof, please.

Palpatine would. It was part of his problem.
Palpatine's not THAT cocky.

But I was talking more of the shuttle variety and the planet based versions.
I don't think a shuttlecraft's tractor beam would be able to pick up an AT-ST, much less an AT-AT. The planet-based ones, though, I have no knowledge of their strength.

If you are going to mention a certain .net site then don't.
The numbers there are so inflated and unrealistic that its beyond stupid.
A single blast from an X-Wing should be able to take out entire continents and small moons according to that site.
I am not. I was asking you. Because I honestly don't know when it comes to compare the two.

There are different versions of the Federation Warp engines as well.

Slipstream tech, on the verge. No real reason to develop atm.
Transwarp tech. On hold due to the transfer of power that it would entail.
And yet that aren't mass-produced, like the Hyperdrive.

What people fail to account for with the Federation is the amount of holding power they display.

They have in their possession technology that could make them the Alpha quadrant ultimate super power and that could have ended the Dominion War almost before it had began.
And then they let things drop to the side that could tip the balance of power in their favor by wide margins.

Lol, they even let the Kilgons and Romulans keep one of the most devasting "weapons" to themselves.
And then said, "We won't use it."
Bone heads closed themselves out of cloaking tech. Despite being capable of building a better unit then the other powers can.

In the face of such a threat.
Where not only the Federations existence was at stake, but also the entire alpha quadrant.
I think we would see a lot of those self stoppers removed.

Cloaking tech would become common place.
Sub space weaponry would see some use. Limited but still used.
Slipstream and Transwarp tech research and implementation would be accelerated.

The Empire just simply is to large to compete with that.
So you DO admit to the Empire's size. Regardless, I don't see what it's size has to do with that.

[ParkerHayden]

The Stark-Hyperspace war is described on Wookiepedia as "a small regional military conflict" that "was fought almost entirely in the Qotile system". That's hardly a broad conflict. The Mandalorian wars predate the Jedi Civil War, and are therefore out of the time frame I outlined. That still leaves the gap.
I was just reinforcing that Star Wars had more wars than what Verkruk mentioned

True, but irrelevant. It's still canon. If the only way to make a good movie is to make the Empire incompetent, then so be it. Incompetent they are, regardless of the reason.
Ah, so this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoIFUJxJwcQ) video, where Starfleet uses almost nonexistant shielding in a fleet battle is canon as well. What I'm saying is that they're both poor director choices.

You should watch Star Wars Episode II then. An entire army of Jedi were on the verge of being wiped out before a large conventional army (the clones) bailed them out.
They were surrounded by limitless mechanical soldiers. Basically outnumbered 50-to-1. I don't care if they were an army of Force-sensitive Predators, they'd still be owned.

I didn't say several dozen hits. I just described a long-range assault on the Death Star equivalent to several complete planetary bombardments (thousands of photon torpedoes). Trust me, it would not survive unless guarded by the Imperial fleet, which would then make it more of a liability than anything. Instead of one sitting duck, you'd have a large space station and 100 Star Destroyers just BEGGING to be hit with a Cardassian Dreadnought missile. That single weapon wouldn't obliterate the entire force, but it would obliterate the Death Star and probably cause moderate-severe damage to most of it's escorts (depending on proximity).
Unfortunately, the Dreadnaught missile is Cardassian/Maquis technology and is probably very difficult to make.

That isn't really what we observe though. The whole reason the Rebel Alliance were successful in their hit and run missions on unguarded convoys was because the Imperial fleet was too thin to even guard every target of value, let alone be part of the garrison at every inhabited world. Instead what is more likely is just the there are a small number of ships assigned to an area of space who can then hyperspace to wherever they need to go if trouble erupts. This isn't impractical given the speed at which Star Wars ships can travel (considerably faster than normal warp by any reasonable assumption). That's certainly the way things seem to happen. Trouble erupts somewhere and the local imperial garrison arrives within a few minutes with a capital ship or 2. The reason that there were 2 star destroyers so quickly available to pursue the Millennium Falcon in orbit of Tatooine was most likely that they were there as part of the investigation into the disappearance of the Death Star plans.
True, but even so, I'm sure there'd be at least one-to-four Imperial-Class Star Destroyers per planet, depending on importance.

I have to say, an actual movie/TV series/series of movies circling around a war between the Empire and the Federation would be geekasmic.

[Darksider]

I believe when I was a teen reading Wizard magazine or something like that, this very question was answered. If I remember correctly ,the author of the article mentioned something about normal SW lasers being unable to penetrate the shields that ST vessels use. That would obviously put them at a major disadvantage. The upside for the SW universe lies in its huge scope, it seems capable of simply outnumbering the industrial output of the ST universe. But once again, fiction vs fiction=neverending arguments.

[Catamount]

I was just reinforcing that Star Wars had more wars than what Verkruk mentioned


That's fair. That's also why I mentioned the Sictis Wars. I don't know much about them, but they're listed in the timeline as a large conflict (lasted 20 years too).

Ah, so this video, where Starfleet uses almost nonexistant shielding in a fleet battle is canon as well. What I'm saying is that they're both poor director choices.

Actually that looks about accurate to me. If you're serving in Starfleet aboard a Miranda class ship during the Dominion War, you can pretty much kiss your existence goodbye. The Galor class ships were equally disadvantaged against those Galaxy class ships, hence why they didn't fair too well. It's not a matter of direction on screen, what happened happened. That's what canon is.


They were surrounded by limitless mechanical soldiers. Basically outnumbered 50-to-1. I don't care if they were an army of Force-sensitive Predators, they'd still be owned.

Which is precisely my point. Jedi would be a huge threat if there were tens of thousands of them, but there aren't. They're just a non-issue in a war because anywhere from 3-10 normal soldiers (depending on the strength of the Jedi) can EASILY kill one.

Unfortunately, the Dreadnaught missile is Cardassian/Maquis technology and is probably very difficult to make.

Right, but the Death Star on the other hand is just INCREDIBLY easy to construct, right? :D
If you give one side super weapons it's fair game for the other side to have them. For the amount of time it takes the Empire to build one of those stations, the Cardassians could probably build 150 of those missiles.
They're complex, but still just little more than a sophisticated cruiser with a large warhead built in (2,000kg of anti-matter).


True, but even so, I'm sure there'd be at least one-to-four Imperial-Class Star Destroyers per planet, depending on importance.

I have to say, an actual movie/TV series/series of movies circling around a war between the Empire and the Federation would be geekasmic.

It'd be fun, but a good fan fiction is probably the best we could ever hope for. I haven't even ever come across one of those.

[ParkerHayden]

Actually that looks about accurate to me. If you're serving in Starfleet aboard a Miranda class ship during the Dominion War, you can pretty much kiss your existence goodbye. The Galor class ships were equally disadvantaged against those Galaxy class ships, hence why they didn't fair too well. It's not a matter of direction on screen, what happened happened. That's what canon is.
The Mirandas had updated shielding, though. And at the end of the battle, the entire Starfleet fleet was gone, and the Dominion still had probably 4/6 of their fleet left.

Which is precisely my point. Jedi would be a huge threat if there were tens of thousands of them, but there aren't. They're just a non-issue in a war because anywhere from 3-10 normal soldiers (depending on the strength of the Jedi) can EASILY kill one.
I wouldn't say "EASILY". Especially if you were dealing with one that has Darkside powers. Lightning would wipe out a significant amount of soldiers. And I'm pretty sure that it would probably take about 8 soldiers, minimum, to defeat your average dark Jedi.

Right, but the Death Star on the other hand is just INCREDIBLY easy to construct, right? :D
Lol, I misread that one.:p

It'd be fun, but a good fan fiction is probably the best we could ever hope for. I haven't even ever come across one of those.
I believe I remember reading about one. It ended with Han and Kirk playing poker. Really.

Also, to add to the Empire's advantage: Thrawn

[ParkerHayden]

I believe when I was a teen reading Wizard magazine or something like that, this very question was answered. If I remember correctly ,the author of the article mentioned something about normal SW lasers being unable to penetrate the shields that ST vessels use. That would obviously put them at a major disadvantage. The upside for the SW universe lies in its huge scope, it seems capable of simply outnumbering the industrial output of the ST universe. But once again, fiction vs fiction=neverending arguments.
That phrase would be a win in my book.

[Catamount]

The Mirandas had updated shielding, though. And at the end of the battle, the entire Starfleet fleet was gone, and the Dominion still had probably 4/6 of their fleet left.

Like I said, it was a bad time to be in Starfleet. We ummmm... we don't like to talk about it too much... :D

Also, to add to the Empire's advantage: Thrawn

Yeah, well I'll just put Julian Bashir in command of Star Fleet's forces, and we'll see who has the superior intellect. Either that, or I'll just grab a few Maquis fighters or ex-Bajoran rebels and we'll put the Rebel Alliance to absolute shame for geurilla tactics.

[ParkerHayden]

Like I said, it was a bad time to be in Starfleet. We ummmm... we don't like to talk about it too much... :D
I wouldn't either if my people were months away from defeat...:confused:

Yeah, well I'll just put Julian Bashir in command of Star Fleet's forces, and we'll see who has the superior intellect.
He's a doctor, not a tactician.:D
See what I did there?;)

Either that, or I'll just grab a few Maquis fighters or ex-Bajoran rebels and we'll put the Rebel Alliance to absolute shame for geurilla tactics.
I'd pay to see that. Really. It'd be pretty cool.

[starshipcaptain]

lightscabers could cut though something much easyer then a phaser

[Ilithi_Dragon]

The Mirandas had updated shielding, though. And at the end of the battle, the entire Starfleet fleet was gone, and the Dominion still had probably 4/6 of their fleet left.

Updated, yes, but still not to the equivalent of a modern starship. The Mirandas were something on the order of 100 years old at the time, though, so it's little surprise they faired poorly in a battle against modern and near-modern warships.

Also, that clip you linked to was from Sacrifice of Angels, a battle which the Allies WON. They engaged a force of 1200 Dominion warships (mix of Jem'Hadar and Cardassian) with 600 Federation starships, and another 300 Klingon warships dropping on on the Dominion's flanks after the battle had already joined. The Defiant was the first ship to break through, and while she was the only ship to make it through the Dominion lines out of the small group of ships that had fallen in around her, there were still plenty of Federation ships left in the fight. Later, after the Defiant closed the wormhole, two hundred Allied ships broke through the Dominion lines and made for DS9, with the implication that more were still embroiled in the main engagement (thus requiring the majority of the Dominion force to remain and hold them from breaking through as well, instead of pursuing the ships that broke through with overwhelming force).


Further, on the shield issue, not only were the majority of ships we saw destroyed weaker ships (either fast attack craft or aging designs), but we never directly witnessed the opening shots between the actual starships. We saw the opening shots of the fighter strafing runs, the first of which detonated against the Cardassian ships with little effect (and with explosions large enough to make it hard to say whether or not shield flares were present), but we never actually saw the first shots from the starships, nor did we see every shot from every ship. Given the weapons ranges we've witnessed in Trek (as far out as 200,000 kilometers with fatal accuracy - TNG "The Wounded"), it's very likely that the ships had already opened fire on each other long before their lines met, meaning the ships we saw destroyed with a single shot or a handful of shots directly to the hull had probably already taken fire and lost their shields.


I wouldn't say "EASILY". Especially if you were dealing with one that has Darkside powers. Lightning would wipe out a significant amount of soldiers. And I'm pretty sure that it would probably take about 8 soldiers, minimum, to defeat your average dark Jedi.

Given that Luke was still able to move and talk while being subjected to the Force lightning of one of the most powerful Sith lords we've ever known, the damage and pain Force lightning causes cannot be that severe. Certainly, it's very painful, and can obviously be fatal, but someone who has an extremely high pain tolerance and/or force of will (such as a Vulcan or a Klingon), could probably withstand it long enough to do some limited actions, at least.

As for how many troopers it would take to bring down a Jedi... That depends on the circumstances, and what kind of tech and equipment the troopers are equipped with. Phasers on wide-beam setting would probably make short work of any Jedi, though, light, dark or sith, at anything but close quarters. Even if a lightsaber can deflect the phased energy of a phaser beam, they can't deflect a fan of phaser energy, or a cone.

[Verkruk]

The Dominion Wars were ugly for more then just the reason of looking defeat in the face.
It was the fact that they had ALL our tech, and we had none of theirs.

During the first several months of the Dominion War the Federation was at a monster of a disadvantage in the shield category.
Seeing as they knew about the main frequencies that we used, and how we generated those frequencies, it was as if we had little to no shielding at all.
Very painful. So much so that many Galaxy and almost every Sovereign class vessel was kept away from the small engagements for some time.

Galaxy due to its size and power, the Sovereign because it operated differently and had better tech then anything the Dominion had managed to get a hold of.

I don't know who to compare Thrawn to. The guy by all accounts was down right insane.
Though there is a certain woman that can beat him ;) (Still Empire side >.<)

As for proof about the Fed using a Planet Eater on a Borg Super Cube.
Well you would have to read the novel where Janeway dies.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

The Dominion Wars were ugly for more then just the reason of looking defeat in the face.
It was the fact that they had ALL our tech, and we had none of theirs.

During the first several months of the Dominion War the Federation was at a monster of a disadvantage in the shield category.
Seeing as they knew about the main frequencies that we used, and how we generated those frequencies, it was as if we had little to no shielding at all.

Actually, it was the Dominion's phased polaron beams, which completely bypassed the Allies' shields without effect, that was the problem (and given that modern scientists don't know how a polaron beam would be used as an effective weapon, that's not too surprising). That was a very decisive advantage for the Dominion in the opening stages of the war, and remained so even later into the war, after the Allies had developed shields that could protect against them, because the Dominion apparently attempted to regain that advantage since we saw Dominion (and later Cardassian) weapons penetrate Allied shield systems in some engagements and not in others (which would only be logical, because the ability to shield against your opponent's weapons while your opponent can't shield against yours is a significant advantage that no one would want to give up on, and the race to shield against Dominion weapons by the Allies and the race to bypass the latest Allied shield enhancements by the Dominion was probably one of the great tech battles of the war).


Very painful. So much so that many Galaxy and almost every Sovereign class vessel was kept away from the small engagements for some time.

Galaxy due to its size and power, the Sovereign because it operated differently and had better tech then anything the Dominion had managed to get a hold of.

Actually, unless I'm mistaken (and I could be), the Federation just generally avoided direct engagements with the Dominion until some sort of defense against the Dominion's polaron-based weaponry was developed.


I don't know who to compare Thrawn to. The guy by all accounts was down right insane.
Though there is a certain woman that can beat him ;) (Still Empire side >.<)

As for proof about the Fed using a Planet Eater on a Borg Super Cube.
Well you would have to read the novel where Janeway dies.

As for Thrawn, the guy apparently doesn't enter into the genius stage until he gets a look at his opponent's artwork, though he's undoubtedly a master tactician either way. Even if he got a hold of some Fed artwork, though, it wouldn't do him a great amount of good, because of the sheer number of species that makes up the Federation, and the huge variety of artwork generated just here on Earth.

That said, he would still know nothing of Federation capabilities and tactics, meaning that he would essentially be flying blind against them.

[ParkerHayden]

As for Thrawn, the guy apparently doesn't enter into the genius stage until he gets a look at his opponent's artwork, though he's undoubtedly a master tactician either way. Even if he got a hold of some Fed artwork, though, it wouldn't do him a great amount of good, because of the sheer number of species that makes up the Federation, and the huge variety of artwork generated just here on Earth.

That said, he would still know nothing of Federation capabilities and tactics, meaning that he would essentially be flying blind against them.
You're underestimating Thrawn considerably. He didn't just focus on artwork. One skirmish with Starfleet, and he'd be sure to understand their tactics.

[Eureka]

Intrepid sinks Luck Skywaker! where's your force now?:D

[Verkruk]

Actually, it was the Dominion's phased polaron beams, which completely bypassed the Allies' shields without effect, that was the problem (and given that modern scientists don't know how a polaron beam would be used as an effective weapon, that's not too surprising). That was a very decisive advantage for the Dominion in the opening stages of the war, and remained so even later into the war, after the Allies had developed shields that could protect against them, because the Dominion apparently attempted to regain that advantage since we saw Dominion (and later Cardassian) weapons penetrate Allied shield systems in some engagements and not in others (which would only be logical, because the ability to shield against your opponent's weapons while your opponent can't shield against yours is a significant advantage that no one would want to give up on, and the race to shield against Dominion weapons by the Allies and the race to bypass the latest Allied shield enhancements by the Dominion was probably one of the great tech battles of the war).

Remember they could also beam thru our shields.
And was later mentioned that a founders had managed to infiltrate almost every major power in the Alpha Quadrant and gained massive amounts of tactical and technical readouts and knowledge about them.

Actually, unless I'm mistaken (and I could be), the Federation just generally avoided direct engagements with the Dominion until some sort of defense against the Dominion's polaron-based weaponry was developed.

True. I can't quote you the book, or really even remember which one is was.(have to many!)
But it makes mention of the Galaxy and other larger vessels being kept out of the minor conflicts and even some of the larger ones simply due to the resource cost of them.
In another book, that is focused around the Enterprise E and its role in the Dominion War, I believe it is mentioned that the Sovereign class vessels saw the least amount of conflict for fear of them falling into enemy hands as it was a Dominion priority to capture one of these vessels.

[Catamount]

You're underestimating Thrawn considerably. He didn't just focus on artwork. One skirmish with Starfleet, and he'd be sure to understand their tactics.

One genious tactician can make some difference in a battle, or even a war, but Thrawn enough is not enough to turn the tides of any war, even a closely matched one. The Jem'Hadar had no limit of absolutely brilliant and competent direction of their fleets at all levels of their command structure. They're engineered to be the best soldiers possible, and I'd dare to say a far greater feat in genetic engineering than the Kamino clone army of the Republic. We still beat them.

First off, the Federation has many, many worlds and many allies from whom to draw some pretty smart tacticians so it's arrogant to assume that Starfleet doesn't have smart people of it's own, especially since you also can't ignore the shear amount of education and experience needed for a Starfleet officer to even hit a moderate rank within Starfleet. I'd put any academy graduate who's achieved even a middle rank within Starfleet well above even the average high ranking Imperial peon. Competence in general is something the Empire seems to be lacking in, which says something for why they can never seem to achieve victory, given the rather fatal consequences of arrogance and incompetence combined, two things the average Imperial officer has no lack of. It's seriously no wonder many of them didn't last long under the command of Darth Vader. Choking people to death with the force must just be a lot more satisfying than face palming all the time.

There's also something to be noted about the history of the Federation vs the history of various Star Wars races. Do you know why I would put the skills of the average Terran or Bajorn in unconventional warfare above that of the average Rebel? It's because out of all the hundreds or thousands of wars known to have been fought in Star Wars history, every single one almost without exception was won solely by having a bigger fleet, stronger force sensitives, or better soldiers. This explains something of the generally slow, bulky ships favored by Star Wars races. They aren't built to do anything but approach a targer and bludgeon it to death with a massive amount of firepower, with no room in the design to do anything else. Even the Rebel Alliance didn't really do anything groundbreaking other than fighting bravely, being very good at drawing the sympathy of many bright people, including many of the Empire's best (or sometimes just a bunch of Ewoks), and conventionally fighting forces in battles they chose, preying opportunistically on unarmed convoys but generally being unable to strike real blows against the Imperial military. Seriously, you could probably count every Imperial Star Destroyer that the Rebels destroyed in the whole war prior to Endor on one hand. They only won the war so quickly because of a crippling combination (once again) of arrogance and incompetence on the part of the Emperor. He was arrogant for underestimating the Rebellion's ability to strike his unfinished Death Star (and for not guarding his shield generator with a hell of a lot more soldiers), and he was incompetent for unnecessarily staking his life in the battle. In both cases he was just like Grand Moff Tarkin. The Rebels would have come whether or not he was on board the Death Star. They HAD to risk attacking it before it's completion. Had he been smarter about the whole thing, not only might he still have his Death Star, but at the very least he'd still be alive and the war would have to continue through decades of additional Imperial Rule, assuming the Rebels didn't just get crushed once and for all, leading to centuries of Imperial rule. The Rebels were really lucky to be handed that opportunity to actually do some damage to the Empire thanks to the stupidity of the Imperials.

Federation history on the other hand is filled with examples of just the opposite. Larger military forces are defeated or least effectively occupied by smaller forces throughout history due to nothing more than "unfair" fighting. The American Colonials, the French Underground in WWII (the origin of the name Maquis, after rural guerrilla bands in France), the Vietcong, the Afghan Mujahideen against the USSR (armed by us, but still), the anti-Cardassian Maquis, the Bajoran resistance. Whether good or bad, all of these forces experienced a certain degree of success, and their tactics were far more brilliant often than those used by the only guerrilla force I'm aware of in Star Wars, the Rebel Alliance. A ISD II is an impressive ship, and probably capable of easily defeating a Federation starship in one on one combat at least in terms for firepower and shield strength, but I'd love to see how well one of those ships would fare if a hit and run drew it into the badlands. Just ask the Cardassians. Lumbering vessels don't do well in there, but I could see the average overconfident Imperial being more than willing to try in the pursuit of an enemy vessel, no matter how small and insignificant it might be.

Thrawn is smart, but he's also an exception within even the highest ranks of the Empire, so I'd put general tactical and strategic competence on the side of the Federation.

True. I can't quote you the book, or really even remember which one is was.(have to many!)
But it makes mention of the Galaxy and other larger vessels being kept out of the minor conflicts and even some of the larger ones simply due to the resource cost of them.
In another book, that is focused around the Enterprise E and its role in the Dominion War, I believe it is mentioned that the Sovereign class vessels saw the least amount of conflict for fear of them falling into enemy hands as it was a Dominion priority to capture one of these vessels.

I think you're referring to Dominion Wars books one and three by John Vornholt. Only books I know of that center around the Enterprise E.

[ParkerHayden]

One genious tactician can make some difference in a battle, or even a war, but Thrawn enough is not enough to turn the tides of any war, even a closely matched one. The Jem'Hadar had no limit of absolutely brilliant and competent direction of their fleets at all levels of their command structure. They're engineered to be the best soldiers possible, and I'd dare to say a far greater feat in genetic engineering than the Kamino clone army of the Republic. We still beat them.
Pellaeon. Isard. Veers. Daala. Jerjerod. Piett. Fel. And I disagree about the cloning. I can guarentee that a squad of ARCs could outfight Jem'Hadar twice their numbers. Average Clone Troopers could probably be pretty equal, and Cody was a very good tactician, along with all the other Legion commanders.

Choking people to death with the force must just be a lot more satisfying than face palming all the time.
Damn straight.

There's also something to be noted about the history of the Federation vs the history of various Star Wars races. Do you know why I would put the skills of the average Terran or Bajorn in unconventional warfare above that of the average Rebel? It's because out of all the hundreds or thousands of wars known to have been fought in Star Wars history, every single one almost without exception was won solely by having a bigger fleet, stronger force sensitives, or better soldiers. This explains something of the generally slow, bulky ships favored by Star Wars races. They aren't built to do anything but approach a targer and bludgeon it to death with a massive amount of firepower, with no room in the design to do anything else. Even the Rebel Alliance didn't really do anything groundbreaking other than fighting bravely, being very good at drawing the sympathy of many bright people, including many of the Empire's best (or sometimes just a bunch of Ewoks), and conventionally fighting forces in battles they chose, preying opportunistically on unarmed convoys but generally being unable to strike real blows against the Imperial military. Seriously, you could probably count every Imperial Star Destroyer that the Rebels destroyed in the whole war prior to Endor on one hand. They only won the war so quickly because of a crippling combination (once again) of arrogance and incompetence on the part of the Emperor. He was arrogant for underestimating the Rebellion's ability to strike his unfinished Death Star (and for not guarding his shield generator with a hell of a lot more soldiers), and he was incompetent for unnecessarily staking his life in the battle. In both cases he was just like Grand Moff Tarkin. The Rebels would have come whether or not he was on board the Death Star. They HAD to risk attacking it before it's completion. Had he been smarter about the whole thing, not only might he still have his Death Star, but at the very least he'd still be alive and the war would have to continue through decades of additional Imperial Rule, assuming the Rebels didn't just get crushed once and for all, leading to centuries of Imperial rule. The Rebels were really lucky to be handed that opportunity to actually do some damage to the Empire thanks to the stupidity of the Imperials.

Federation history on the other hand is filled with examples of just the opposite. Larger military forces are defeated or least effectively occupied by smaller forces throughout history due to nothing more than "unfair" fighting. The American Colonials, the French Underground in WWII (the origin of the name Maquis, after rural guerrilla bands in France), the Vietcong, the Afghan Mujahideen against the USSR (armed by us, but still), the anti-Cardassian Maquis, the Bajoran resistance. Whether good or bad, all of these forces experienced a certain degree of success, and their tactics were far more brilliant often than those used by the only guerrilla force I'm aware of in Star Wars, the Rebel Alliance. A ISD II is an impressive ship, and probably capable of easily defeating a Federation starship in one on one combat at least in terms for firepower and shield strength, but I'd love to see how well one of those ships would fare if a hit and run drew it into the badlands. Just ask the Cardassians. Lumbering vessels don't do well in there, but I could see the average overconfident Imperial being more than willing to try in the pursuit of an enemy vessel, no matter how small and insignificant it might be.
The destruction of the Death Star was the first actual victory the Rebels had. Before then, they were barely moving along in their petty attempt at "freedom". The majority of their fighting-worthy ships (which wasn't much) were stolen Imperial ships, and all the others were just civilian ships with weapons slapped onto them. The Empire was sweeping the floor with them until they got their hands on the Death Star's plans. Hell, if they actually found R2 before he reached the Rebels, and the Death Star destroyed Yavin, the Rebellion would nearly have been finished right there.

I have absolutely no doubt that the Federation doesn't have it's brilliant tacticians, however I have yet to hear of one that has the intelligence and cunning that Thrawn or Isard have.

[ScrewySquirrel]

Its very, very, very simple, IMHO.


The USS Enterprise, NCC-1701, no ****** A, B, C, or D will. win. vs. a star destroyer. Because of one thing:

Star Wars ships fight as SUBLIGHT speeds, when they jump to hyperspace, they exit the universe, travel for a while, then re-enter. They cannot fight in realspace at superluminal velocity.


Star Trek ships can and DO fight at superluminal velocities: Warp 1 = lightspeed. Starships can fire their Photons and Phasers at higher speed that that

All a Trek ship has to do is 'Boom-n-Zoom' tactics: It goes at Warp 1.1 and OUTRUNS the turbolasers. Star Destroyers cant SEE Enterprise until after it's fired and flown past. So, By making repeated Warp-speed passes with photons and Phasers, any Imperial ship will eventually die to the repeated, concentrated firepower. While the Federation ship doesn't take ANY damage because it cant be hit. SURE, at sublight, those Star Destroyers will DWARF anything in the Trek Universe. But Why fight at Sublight?

[ParkerHayden]

Star Wars ships fight as SUBLIGHT speeds, when they jump to hyperspace, they exit the universe, travel for a while, then re-enter. They cannot fight in realspace at superluminal velocity.


Star Trek ships can and DO fight at superluminal velocities: Warp 1 = lightspeed. Starships can fire their Photons and Phasers at higher speed that that

All a Trek ship has to do is 'Boom-n-Zoom' tactics: It goes at Warp 1.1 and OUTRUNS the turbolasers. Star Destroyers cant SEE Enterprise until after it's fired and flown past. So, By making repeated Warp-speed passes with photons and Phasers, any Imperial ship will eventually die to the repeated, concentrated firepower. While the Federation ship doesn't take ANY damage because it cant be hit. SURE, at sublight, those Star Destroyers will DWARF anything in the Trek Universe. But Why fight at Sublight?

First of all: hyperdrive is FASTER than lightspeed. Ships can travel across the galaxy (120,000 lightyears) in a matter of days.

Also, I don't recall hearing/reading that ships in Trek have the ability to fire weapons during warp. Wouldn't it destabilize the warp bubble, or take too much out of the energy systems, or something?

Finally, assuming Trek ships could travel at warp speeds and still fight, Star Wars ships have the technology to force other ships out of high speed travel. (warp or hyperdrive)

[ScrewySquirrel]

First of all: hyperdrive is FASTER than lightspeed. Ships can travel across the galaxy (120,000 lightyears) in a matter of days.

Also, I don't recall hearing/reading that ships in Trek have the ability to fire weapons during warp. Wouldn't it destabilize the warp bubble, or take too much out of the energy systems, or something?

Finally, assuming Trek ships could travel at warp speeds and still fight, Star Wars ships have the technology to force other ships out of high speed travel. (warp or hyperdrive)


yes, Hyperspace is faster, but you cant fight at that speed. As for at warp fighting, Kirk did it regularly: Fighting the Orions in Journey to Babel, The Photon shot at warp in The Motion Picture, at least one duel with the Klingons.

[USS_Parallax]

If Trek can transport through Star Wars shields then they win.

[Catamount]

Well first off, yes, Star Trek ships can fight at warp speed, but the nature of this is so limited it couldn't be used as the sole tactic for combat. The one advantage it COULD yield is that photon torpedoes (and presumable quantum torpedoes) can be fired at warp and retain their warp velocity for a short time. This wouldn't be useful against a moving ship, but it would be against an unshielded or poorly-shielded installation at least for a few shots (escort vessels would quickly engage the ships firing). In general though ships in Star Trek are far, far more maneuverable even at sub-light speeds than larger Imperial cruisers. Star Destroyers probably are capable of fairly high sub-light velocity, but don't expect them to change direction too quickly.

Pellaeon. Isard. Veers. Daala. Jerjerod. Piett. Fel. And I disagree about the cloning. I can guarentee that a squad of ARCs could outfight Jem'Hadar twice their numbers. Average Clone Troopers could probably be pretty equal, and Cody was a very good tactician, along with all the other Legion commanders.


Jem'Hadar can be grown in a tiny fraction of the time it takes to grow those clones, meaning the numerical advantage would be huge. In fact, a discussion between a Jem'Hadar soldier and Jadziah Dax reveals that in wartime many Jem'Hadar live and die in a shorter time than it takes just to mature a clone trooper (because of combat, not old age). Jem'Hadar can also cloak themselves. They are by no means undetectable, but the shock factor of this in early engagements would be (and was) enormous, and is always a tactical advantage even when expected. They are also stronger than humans, and so stronger than clones, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Jem'Hadar fight DAMN well. Federation training in areas of security give all members of Starfleet a very solid foundation in fighting and make them a match for just about any dedicated soldier even in time of peace, but these soldiers of the Founders... they don't fight like mere men. I like clone troopers, don't get me wrong, but an army of them is going to just be smaller and less capable than an army of Jem'Hadar. They just aren't as advanced of a weapon.

The destruction of the Death Star was the first actual victory the Rebels had. Before then, they were barely moving along in their petty attempt at "freedom". The majority of their fighting-worthy ships (which wasn't much) were stolen Imperial ships, and all the others were just civilian ships with weapons slapped onto them. The Empire was sweeping the floor with them until they got their hands on the Death Star's plans. Hell, if they actually found R2 before he reached the Rebels, and the Death Star destroyed Yavin, the Rebellion would nearly have been finished right there.

I have absolutely no doubt that the Federation doesn't have it's brilliant tacticians, however I have yet to hear of one that has the intelligence and cunning that Thrawn or Isard have.


Thank you, I'm glad we agree. It goes to prove my point as well. The Imperials are generally incompetent, and that's why they lost their Empire, and a few shining jewels don't change that. Besides, General Cornwallis was a competent commander. In fact the British scored many, many early victories against the American Colonials in the American Revolution, but a good tactician still needs to understand the war he's fighting, and in the end, a failure to predict the determination of the Americans to use ANY means at their disposal to win lead to the ultimate downfall of the British forces (actually it was largely our awesome navy in the war of 1812, but shhhhhh). Likewise the Imperials have simply never witnessed the kind of war we'd give them, especially if as outnumbered as is predicted. Thrawn is a good chess player, a good tactician in a fair fight where the game is laid out plainly for him, but I've yet to see how he would react to fighting an enemy unwilling to fight by his rules. On the other hand, we see Starfleet personnel like Commander/Captain William Riker, who has at many, many times been able to improvise in battle in disadvantaged situations. Is this mere longtime first officer and recent starship captain a match for the mind of the great and powerful Thrawn? I suppose it depends on how much Thrawn is just being idolized, but nevertheless he's still just one man. Captain Riker on the other hand is representative of tens of thousands of educated Starfleet officers.

In Starfleet, you don't run off to the academy to throw on a pretty uniform, talk with a silly British-wannabe accent, and fly around in a Star Destroyer hoping (praying?) that you don't get assigned to command under Darth Vader. You have to learn about science, history, philosophy, battle, diplomacy, engineering, a whole host of subjects just to put get a single pin and wear the name Ensign. Like I said, I see a pretty big education gap there, and would put the abilities of the average competent Starfleet officer against a simple Imperial peon (to recycle my earlier term) absolutely any day. They're just required to do more. They're expected to be explorers, and diplomats, and scientists, and on occasion even soldiers, and while those occasions are rare make no mistake, each and every officer is trained and refined in that capacity from the moment they step on a starship. Imperial "officers" on the other hand are expected to do what, lead garrisons? Would the commanding officer of a Star Destroyer ever even be trusted to handle a delicate first contact mission with another species? I doubt it. They'd send a diplomat on board the ship. In Starfleet as a captain though, you ARE a diplomat, and many other things.

Call it pride in my own species, but I'd actually see us doing okay against the Imperials, especially given that we're just not very good at living under subjugation. If the Empire knew anything about Terrans, or about our history, they wouldn't touch us with a 10 foot pole even if they had a billion ships behind them.

By the way, correct me if I'm wrong, but General Veers let the Rebels escape the Battle of Hoth. Victory there doesn't say much for him. Obviously the Rebels couldn't hold back the Imperials once discovered, capturing or killing them should have been his goal.

[Catamount]

If Trek can transport through Star Wars shields then they win.

I would imagine we wouldn't be able to, or that Imperials would quickly adapt their shields to eliminate that vulnerability if we could, but still it's good that you bring up transporters. That's one of our more unique advantages.

[vp21ct]

On the earlier Point of Thrawn, Yeah ill admit it, he would kick everyones ass. If he had been there for the Yuzong Vong invasion, then those Vong *******s wouldn't have stood a chance.

[USS_Parallax]

The VERY few Transportation instances in Star Wars Expanded Universe have been able to transport through shields. Shields are usually pretty bad in Star Wars with the exception of shield generators build for bases (and the few that are mobile like in Phantom Menace). While I doubt Trek could transport through the base type shields I think they might be able to with the standard ship shields. If they could they just transport some Torpedoes into key areas of a Star Destroyer and it's gone.

Also I don't think a Star Destroyer would have as much fire power as say a Galaxy-class. It's bigger and can probably take more hits. Plus we don't know how effective Ion Cannon weaponry would be effective against Trek Shields if they're equiped on the Star Destroyer.

[ParkerHayden]

Also I don't think a Star Destroyer would have as much fire power as say a Galaxy-class. It's bigger and can probably take more hits. Plus we don't know how effective Ion Cannon weaponry would be effective against Trek Shields if they're equipped on the Star Destroyer.
Galaxy-Class: 642m long (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Galaxy_class)
Star Destroyer: 1,600m long (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_II-class_Star_Destroyer)
And, also, the Galaxy-Class is not a warship, whereas Star Destroyers are.

And thanks for reminding me of ion cannons: they can disable shields just by hitting them, then disabling the ship's systems after a few shots.

In Starfleet, you don't run off to the academy to throw on a pretty uniform, talk with a silly British-wannabe accent, and fly around in a Star Destroyer hoping (praying?) that you don't get assigned to command under Darth Vader. You have to learn about science, history, philosophy, battle, diplomacy, engineering, a whole host of subjects just to put get a single pin and wear the name Ensign. Like I said, I see a pretty big education gap there, and would put the abilities of the average competent Starfleet officer against a simple Imperial peon (to recycle my earlier term) absolutely any day. They're just required to do more. They're expected to be explorers, and diplomats, and scientists, and on occasion even soldiers, and while those occasions are rare make no mistake, each and every officer is trained and refined in that capacity from the moment they step on a starship. Imperial "officers" on the other hand are expected to do what, lead garrisons? Would the commanding officer of a Star Destroyer ever even be trusted to handle a delicate first contact mission with another species? I doubt it. They'd send a diplomat on board the ship. In Starfleet as a captain though, you ARE a diplomat, and many other things.
And how are you so sure that Imperial officers are uneducated? Imperial admirals are where they are because of their higher intellect and strategic genius. I have no doubt of the Empire's arrogance (Palpatine's ego is what caused the destruction of his Death Star after all, along with himself), however the Federation isn't without it's arrogant commanders also. I consider Picard arrogant because he usually boasts about how he's "right", along with Ross, Pressman, Leyton, and several Vulcans.

And when it comes to diplomacy, yes, they would probably use their own diplomats as opposed to a military commander. Why? Because he's a military commander. That reinforces my point that the Imperial Navy is a force of war, not a force of peace like Starfleet. Don't get me wrong, Starfleet can kick some ass when it's backed into a corner, but they're not equipped for a war with the Empire. Sure, they might be able to do some last-ditch effort that could save them all. Considering they pass in the sciences so well, they'd probably find a way to force-shut the rift between the two universes at some point.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Also I don't think a Star Destroyer would have as much fire power as say a Galaxy-class. It's bigger and can probably take more hits.

I personally think an ISD could probably roughly match an Excelsior class in late TNG/DS9 (without the Lakota's upgrades), in terms of the firepower it could put (I'd think, with the Excelsior's torp launchers, that the ISD wouldn't be able to match the firepower of an Excelsior's full salvo, but could maintain a more powerful sustained output). In terms of sublight speed and maneuverability, the ISD would be completely outmatched (including sublight acceleration and maximum sublight velocity - Trek has shown some pretty wicked accelerations, reaching a major fraction (near or more than half) of c in less than thirty seconds on multiple occasions), though I think the ISD would have stronger shield and hull endurance because SW capital ship battles seem to last longer than ST capital ship battles, meaning they would have a greater shield-to-firepower strength ratio than Trek ships (which, given the hard canon comment from the queen of Naboo in AotC that the SW galaxy hadn't known war since the founding of the Republic, would make sense since there would be little need for heavy weapons output, where as high shield strength would always be in demand, given the dangers of space travel).


Plus we don't know how effective Ion Cannon weaponry would be effective against Trek Shields if they're equiped on the Star Destroyer.

Given that Imperial and Republic computer and power supply technology appears to be based on metal wiring and semi-conductor circuits similar to ours, and that an Ion cannon appears to be essentially an advanced electromagnetic pulse (EMP) cannon, it is highly unlikely that SW ion cannons will have any more effect against Trek shields than turbolasers of comparable energy ouptut, and almost certain that ion cannons will not have any adverse or debilitating effect on Trek power and computer systems, given the fact that Trek power systems are plasma-based and use a form of computer circuitry far more advanced than our own, which doesn't rely on semiconductors inlaid with tiny wires. Modern circuitry and wiring is affected by EMP because it generates an electromagnetic field in any metal within the area of effect, generating an electric current, which will scramble the signals in any electronic device, and fry its circuitry if the EMP is strong enough. Since Trek doesn't use this kind of technology, it is unlikely that they would be significantly effected by an EMP cannon, if it had any effect at all.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Galaxy-Class: 642m long (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Galaxy_class)
Star Destroyer: 1,600m long (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_II-class_Star_Destroyer)

Judge me by my size, do you? Hee-hee-hee-hee-hee!

[ParkerHayden]

Federation Advantages:
Sciences
Allies
Maneuverability
Transporters
Mixture of alien minds
Warp-capable torpedo barrages
Replicators

Imperial Advantages:
Firepower
Larger numbers
Hyperdrive
Dark Jedi
Thrawn
Death Star
Slave labor

Federation disadvantages:
Not war-oriented
Smaller numbers

Imperial disadvantages
Over-confidant commanders
Less maneuverable ships

That's what I have so far.

[Roberto]

Federation Advantages:
Sciences
Allies
Maneuverability
Transporters
Mixture of alien minds
Warp-capable torpedo barrages
Replicators

You forgot the most important aspect: Tactics


Thrawn


If generals truly swayed entire wars (single-handily) the west would have lost the war to people like Hausser, Manstein and Rommel. Regardless of that, whos to say there isn't an equally competent Admiral in the wings just because he (or she) isn't featured in a book? Chances are, with is vast array of worlds to choose from, there are a lot more brilliant minds to pluck for the sake of combat.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

I'd debate the firepower aspect, and the superior speed of hyperdrive. Further, you should note that Trek weapons have vastly superior ranges, as far as 200,000 kilometers away at sublight speeds have been reported, and ranges of at least 4.5 million kilometers have been demonstrated (VOY "Basics" - Kazon fire torpedoes at Voyager while Voyager is approaching at warp, and Voyager doesn't arrive and drop out of warp until 15 seconds after the torpedoes start exploding, giving them a range of at least 4.5 million cubic meters, assuming Voyager was only approaching at Warp 1 and not a higher velocity, and we know the Kazon were technologically inferior to Starfleet, so it's likely Starfleet torpedoes have much greater torpedo ranges). Star Wars weaponry, on the other hand, has demonstrated maximum ranges on the order of a few kilometers, possibly a few dozen kilometers for extreme range, with some observed cases of ships being 'out of range' less than a kilometer away (ANH, Falcon pursuing the TIE Fighter).

Even if Trek ships DON'T have superior firepower as I believe, their unquestionably superior acceleration and maneuverability, coupled with vastly superior weapons ranges, not even counting warp-speed attacks, would give them an advantage so decisive that SW ships couldn't compete. Trek ships could simply fly circles around SW ships, firing on them from far beyond their maximum weapons range.

[ParkerHayden]

I'd debate the firepower aspect, and the superior speed of hyperdrive. Further, you should note that Trek weapons have vastly superior ranges, as far as 200,000 kilometers away at sublight speeds have been reported, and ranges of at least 4.5 million kilometers have been demonstrated (VOY "Basics" - Kazon fire torpedoes at Voyager while Voyager is approaching at warp, and Voyager doesn't arrive and drop out of warp until 15 seconds after the torpedoes start exploding, giving them a range of at least 4.5 million cubic meters, assuming Voyager was only approaching at Warp 1 and not a higher velocity, and we know the Kazon were technologically inferior to Starfleet, so it's likely Starfleet torpedoes have much greater torpedo ranges). Star Wars weaponry, on the other hand, has demonstrated maximum ranges on the order of a few kilometers, possibly a few dozen kilometers for extreme range, with some observed cases of ships being 'out of range' less than a kilometer away (ANH, Falcon pursuing the TIE Fighter).

Even if Trek ships DON'T have superior firepower as I believe, their unquestionably superior acceleration and maneuverability, coupled with vastly superior weapons ranges, not even counting warp-speed attacks, would give them an advantage so decisive that SW ships couldn't compete. Trek ships could simply fly circles around SW ships, firing on them from far beyond their maximum weapons range.
Every battle I've seen the Federation in, they mostly went into close range.

Skirmishes with the Dominion, battle with the Scimitar, Enterprise vs Reliant, Enterprise vs Kang's ship, etc.

Starfleet may be able to fire their weapons from great distances, but they sure don't use it to their advantage often.

[ParkerHayden]

You forgot the most important aspect: Tactics
Because, you know, the Empire doesn't have any.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Every battle I've seen the Federation in, they mostly went into close range.

Skirmishes with the Dominion, battle with the Scimitar, Enterprise vs Reliant, Enterprise vs Kang's ship, etc.

Starfleet may be able to fire their weapons from great distances, but they sure don't use it to their advantage often.

We've seem maximum effective ranges of 200,000 km (presumably phasers), and 4.5 million km+ for torpedoes, but there's a difference between maximum range, maximum effective range, and optimal range. Yes, we've seen more engagements taking place at ranges of a few to 10,000 kilometers than at 200,000 - 4.5 million+ km, but the capability to fire from that range still exists. Evasive maneuvers will be far less effective at 10,000 kilometers, or 4 kilometers, than at 200,000 km after all, and we've heard reference to the effects of ECM, either components deliberately designed to disrupt sensors and prevent a target lock, or various tricks and such to do the same, which would logically be more effective against an opponent trying to get a lock at greater ranges.

Since Imperial ships tend to fly in more or less a straight line, with the maneuverability of a wallowing pig, they would be easy targets from extended range.

Further, three of your four examples were under extenuating circumstances. Khan tricked the Enterprise into letting him get in close at first, and then they fought in the Mutara Nebula which made sensors all but useless. We never actually saw a battle between Captain Kang and the Enterprise, so I'm going to assume you mean General Chang from ST:VI. Chang was firing on the Enterprise (and then the Excelsior) while cloaked, not engaging in a typical fight, and he seemed overly secure in his cloak's effectiveness. Lastly, the battle between the Enterprise and the Scimitar took place in the Bassen Rift, which we know disrupted long-range communications, and had to have had an effect at least on long-range sensors, since the Enterprise wasn't far away (at warp) from the fleet she was rendezvousing with on the other side of the neutral zone, and should have been well within their sensor range (i.e. if she suddenly dropped out of warp in a communications dead-zone, they should have detected it and figured out what was going on and come charging in to the rescue). Given that, it's entirely possible that short-range sensors were also effected.



Because, you know, the Empire doesn't have any.


Given that they've demonstrated very little knowledge of them, and tend to prefer straight massed charges and sitting still hammering away at each other, it looks like they don't.

[Roberto]

Because, you know, the Empire doesn't have any.


Just about every single one of their battles is like watching a back-drop from sailed and canon warfare. They try to pull up along side other ships and devastate them with their concentrated array of starboard and port gun ports.

So no, I haven't been overly impressed with their tactics.

They would be hamstringed in minutes.

[Roberto]

Since Imperial ships tend to fly in more or less a straight line, with the maneuverability of a wallowing pig, they would be easy targets from extended range.



I have to admit -- I LOLed. >___>;;;

[ParkerHayden]

We've seem maximum effective ranges of 200,000 km (presumably phasers), and 4.5 million km+ for torpedoes, but there's a difference between maximum range, maximum effective range, and optimal range. Yes, we've seen more engagements taking place at ranges of a few to 10,000 kilometers than at 200,000 - 4.5 million+ km, but the capability to fire from that range still exists. Evasive maneuvers will be far less effective at 10,000 kilometers, or 4 kilometers, than at 200,000 km after all, and we've heard reference to the effects of ECM, either components deliberately designed to disrupt sensors and prevent a target lock, or various tricks and such to do the same, which would logically be more effective against an opponent trying to get a lock at greater ranges.

Since Imperial ships tend to fly in more or less a straight line, with the maneuverability of a wallowing pig, they would be easy targets from extended range.

Further, three of your four examples were under extenuating circumstances. Khan tricked the Enterprise into letting him get in close at first, and then they fought in the Mutara Nebula which made sensors all but useless. We never actually saw a battle between Captain Kang and the Enterprise, so I'm going to assume you mean General Chang from ST:VI. Chang was firing on the Enterprise (and then the Excelsior) while cloaked, not engaging in a typical fight, and he seemed overly secure in his cloak's effectiveness. Lastly, the battle between the Enterprise and the Scimitar took place in the Bassen Rift, which we know disrupted long-range communications, and had to have had an effect at least on long-range sensors, since the Enterprise wasn't far away (at warp) from the fleet she was rendezvousing with on the other side of the neutral zone, and should have been well within their sensor range (i.e. if she suddenly dropped out of warp in a communications dead-zone, they should have detected it and figured out what was going on and come charging in to the rescue). Given that, it's entirely possible that short-range sensors were also effected.
And the fight between the Enterprise and the Son'a? Or the battles with the Borg? The Hirogen? The Klingons?






Given that they've demonstrated very little knowledge of them, and tend to prefer straight massed charges and sitting still hammering away at each other, it looks like they don't.
In ESB, the Empire took the Rebels by surprise on Hoth and commenced a land-based attack to knock-out the shield generator protecting the Rebel base so that a planetary bombardment could be possible. That's a tactic (And a successful one at that)

In RotJ, Palpatine led the Rebels to believe that the Death Star in the Endor system was inoperable and open to attack. The Rebels, thinking that this was true, then sent their entire rag-tag fleet to face-off against the second Death Star. Little did the Rebels know that Palpatine had also hidden a large Imperial fleet, and had them come in and surround the Rebel fleet. Meanwhile, on the surface of Endor, the Rebel strike team had been captured and their plan thwarted. If Palpatine had ordered the Imperial fleet to fire on the Rebel fleet, instead of just letting them sit idly by and wait for the Death Star to open fire on one of the Rebel command ships, they would have been wiped out right there. That's a tactic, and one that could have worked if it weren't for an over-confidant commander.

Hell, Palpatine even wiped out his greatest enemies and single-handedly took control of the Republic and reformed it under his own rule. He made the Jedi so caught-up in the war diversion that even their contact to the Force didn't even realize what was going on until the very end.

And those are just movie examples.

[Catamount]

Every battle I've seen the Federation in, they mostly went into close range.

Skirmishes with the Dominion, battle with the Scimitar, Enterprise vs Reliant, Enterprise vs Kang's ship, etc.

Starfleet may be able to fire their weapons from great distances, but they sure don't use it to their advantage often.

You know, I almost think it's a shame that this conversation is taking place on a Star Trek forum because it tends to just have the opposition get ganged up on which isn't really my intent, but oh well here goes.

I have a theory as to why this might be. Federation weaponry outside of special circumstances travels at C, and no faster (slower in the case of torpedoes at sublight). Federation vessels also travel nearly that fast, and are highly maneuverable. Combat at the maximum range of a Federation vessel would just be inefficient because few hits would be scored on vessels, as they could take advantage of the distance to jet around at high impulse speeds maneuvering to EASILY avoid weapons fired from hundreds of thousands of kilometers away. Think about it, if at a very modest .1*C, your vessel travels it's own length in what is probably somewhere in the ballpark of one millionth of a second (I don't feel like doing the math), but it takes somewhere between a half a second and a second for a particle weapon to travel from an attacking ship to you, do you REALLY think that ship is going to be able to effectively hit you? Even subtle changes in direction made quickly enough would easily keep you out of the way of such fire. It would be like trying to hit a paintball wizzing erratically through the air with a slingshot. For that reason, a ship that desires combat would close to closer range to open fire to guarantee more hits. The ships then cut from impulse and often run on thrusters so that the close range combat takes place at a manageable pace, which is why in Star Trek battles ships appear to be moving only at a few thousand KPH a lot of the time. Even when the Defiant was trying to run through the Dominion fleet in Operation Return, it was probably limited in speed by how fast it could change direction to swerve in between enemy ships.

Star Wars ships don't have this advantage though. Imperial ships are build to do one thing, lumber into position near an enemy vessel and open fire broadside. Their huge mass and generally bulky design precludes quick acceleration so they'd never be able to just move out of the way of a shot even if it was fired from a far distance like 200,000 km away, and they certainly can't change direction very quickly.

This actually goes back to my point that (sorry) Star Wars fights are NOT really fought with very complicated tactics, at least not the way a war with the Federation is. In Star Trek, battles are very dynamic and fluid because ships change position so quickly. In Star Wars fleet A at position 1 is going to take a heck of a long time to lumber over to position 2, so you better hope you placed them well in the first place. The most fluid battle I ever say in Star Wars was the battle in Episode III above Coruscant to rescue the captured chancellor, and even in that fight the most exciting thing that would happen is a Republic cruiser would pull up next to a Separatist cruiser and the 2 would duke it out firing all weapons while maintaining static positions. If the Empire expects us to fight like that, well this ought to last about 5 minutes. That's probably why there's such a high reliance on fighters. They're the only craft that can effectively respond of a rapidly changing situation in Star Wars. I wonder what shock the Imperials would exhibit when they find out that Star Trek ships move just as fluidly and rapidly as Star Wars fighters, but pack the punch of capital ships.

As for officer education, I'm sorry but like I said Starfleet officers are expected to do more than command garrisons in subjugated systems, which means they do have a broader and superior education. A Starfleet officer has to be every bit as good at every aspect of war as any dedicated soldier from any other race anywhere might be, and then on top of that they have to be excellent diplomats, capable scientists, brave explorers and competent engineers (you have to know a lot about how a ship works to ever get NEAR command in Star Trek, enough to field assemble just about any piece of technology Starfleet possesses). It's almost too much for one human to take in, which is probably why Starfleet has stringent entrance requirements for officers. Even Starfleet crewman who aren't academy graduates have to know an awful lot, though it is an admitted failing that every show outside of Enterprise fails to show them.

As for ion cannons, Ilithi Dragon is right, Starship systems in Starfleet are plasma based, and wouldn't be affected in the same way as Star Wars systems by an ion cannon. More important though, Star Trek shields are designed to block a lot of the EM spectrum as well as other types of energy to make scientific exploration of unknown phenomenon safe, and would be fairly effective at blocking energy from an ion cannon, and so would probably actually be less affected by them than by typical weaponry.

The only advantage I have to give Star Wars that's solid in any way is fleet size (and perhaps cloaking tech, but the Imperials don't utilize it), and it's a big advantage I will say that much. If I had to predict a sequence of events in a war between Starfleet (and friends?) and the Empire, I would predict that shear fleet size would probably overwhelm is defeat the Alpha Quadrant initially. What I also predict, however is that the Empire would have a MUCH harder time holding systems in our Galaxy than in their own. Our ships have big advantages, our officers are better educated in all sorts of subjects, our species are familiar with types of warfare that Imperial commanders don't dream about in the worst of nightmares (once again, think Vietcong). What most important however, is the numerous examples of the extent the which our kind do not accept involuntary rule. If the Empire came and the Federation gave them a licking they never forgot, well good for us, but even if we didn't, I can guarantee you the Empire would NEVER defeat us, not in the long term. Even if it meant hiding our remaining ships and pouncing on theirs, or waiting for their ships to dock and de-crew and sabotaging them, or using some of the nastier tactics we've been faced with in war, like having a ship send out a distress signal and then explode when an unsuspecting Imperial ship came near. My favorite is of course the aforementioned hit and run to draw cruisers into the badlands or a similarly hostile area of space. You think the Imperials had it bad with the Rebels? Well... we'll see about that :p

[Ilithi_Dragon]

And the fight between the Enterprise and the Son'a?

Took place in the Briar Patch, and most of it was a running battle in which the Son'a were pursuing the Enteprise.


Or the battles with the Borg? The Hirogen? The Klingons?

Again, note the difference between MAXIMUM EFFECTIVE RANGE and OPTIMAL RANGE, and OPTIMAL RANGE AGAINST ECM. Many Trek battles have taken place at close range, yes, but Trek ships have also demonstrated extended ranges on the order of 10-200,000+ kilometers on multiple occasions, far too many occasions to brush off, and have made it quite clear that ranges of a few kilometers or less are very close quarters for combat on multiple occasions. Just because all or most battles are not fought at maximum effective range does not mean that they can't be fought at that range, it just means that the optimal range is much shorter than the maximum effective range, which is only logical (especially when dealing with electronic counter-measures (ECM)).




In ESB, the Empire took the Rebels by surprise on Hoth and commenced a land-based attack to knock-out the shield generator protecting the Rebel base so that a planetary bombardment could be possible. That's a tactic (And a successful one at that)

First, the Imperials DIDN'T take the Rebels by surprise, they bungled the stealth approach and dropped out of hyperspace close enough to Hoth for the Rebels to detect them coming out. Second, it was directly stated that the Rebels had stayed on Hoth far longer than usual before moving to a new base of operations, allowing the Imperials to discover their location (and they would have ignored it even then if it hadn't been for Vader's direct order). Third, deploying a planetary strike force to take out a theater shield strong enough to deflect your orbital bombardment is far from a brilliant tactic, it's just the common sense of taking the only real option available. And finally, they showed no brilliant tactics in their assault, they just massed their forces and advanced across an open plain with heavy armor (I'd call it a charge, but the speed that the AT-ATs moved isn't something that could be considered a 'charge' of any kind), assaulting a force consisting entirely of under-equipped infantry supported by light aircraft incapable of penetrating their heavy armor. There was no brilliant tactic or maneuver, just a literally straight-forward assault by an overwhelmingly superior force. Instead, it was the REBELS who demonstrated tactical brilliance by using their tow cables to trip-up the AT-ATs and slow the advance (though even that was ended by the Imperials' overwhelmingly superior force).


In RotJ, Palpatine led the Rebels to believe that the Death Star in the Endor system was inoperable and open to attack.

The effectiveness of an intelligence operation is no indication of the quality of military tactics. Further, that would fall under the category of Palpatine's general strategy of manipulation and deception through espionage and political maneuvering, not military tactics.

The Rebels, thinking that this was true, then sent their entire rag-tag fleet to face-off against the second Death Star. Little did the Rebels know that Palpatine had also hidden a large Imperial fleet, and had them come in and surround the Rebel fleet. Meanwhile, on the surface of Endor, the Rebel strike team had been captured and their plan thwarted. If Palpatine had ordered the Imperial fleet to fire on the Rebel fleet, instead of just letting them sit idly by and wait for the Death Star to open fire on one of the Rebel command ships, they would have been wiped out right there. That's a tactic, and one that could have worked if it weren't for an over-confidant commander.

The only real tactical maneuver of that battle performed by the Imperials was Palpatine ordering the fleet to the far side of the moon to mask their presence. The rest of the battle was just ships sitting there blasting away at each other while fighters swarmed around them. Now, Palpatine's use of the Death Star's main weapon to blow up the ships while the Imperial fleet kept the Rebels pinned against the shield wall was a strong maneuver from the psychological perspective, which falls in line with Palpatine's typical MO. The Rebel forces were trapped, pinned in place by a superior military force, and then they started to get picked off one-by-one by the Death Star, which they had not thought was operational, and which was able to obliterate their largest ships with a single shot, while being completely safe from retaliation behind its shield wall. It would have been a very demoralizing situation, being trapped, facing overwhelming odds and then getting picked off by a superweapon you can't touch.

But, there again, the arrogance and overconfidence of Palpatine and many of the Imperial commanders was their undoing, both on the ground, in space, and on the station.


And those are just movie examples.

And I thought we had established in the first two pages of the thread that the books of both series were not canon (save the tech manuals and encyclopedias from Trek and the movie novelizations from Wars, which are considered semi-canon), or did I miss something in the period that I wasn't able to keep up with the thread?

[ParkerHayden]

So, I have discovered some interesting things:

Transporters:
-Transporters cannot pass through 2 Km of granite (TNG:"Legacy"). Therefore, how can they pass through 40-80 Km of durasteel?
-Transporters can't transport through "victurium" alloy. It's an alloy, a simple metal mixture and they can't transport through it... (TNG: "Hero Worship")
-Transporters also cannot work when minor amounts of radiation are around (TNG: "Symbiosis", TNG: "Schisms", TNG: "True Q"
-Transporters also have a hard time locking onto their own ship's reactor (TNG: "The High Ground")
-Transporters can be deflected and/or manipulated by tractor beams (which ships in Star Wars have)(TNG:"Attached")

Basically, transporters wouldn't be all that useful against Star Destroyers.

Weapon Power
In ESB, when in the asteroid field, a Star Destroyer vaporizes three asteroids using it's point-defense turrets in less than a second (each, that is). These asteroids are made up of nickel-iron, and are 10-40m in diameter.
In the TNG episode "Legacy", it took the Enterprise's phasers about 15 seconds to drill through granite to about 1,600m. Impressive, right? Well let's see; Star Destroyer Avenger vaporizes nickel-iron asteroids in 1/15th of a second with its point-defense turbolaser cannons. That would be 600 meters a second for a total of less than three seconds for the Avenger to use its smallest guns to vaporize the equivalent amount of nickel-iron. And when you consider the fact that iron is denser than granite, and turbolasers rely on nothing but brute force for destruction, that says something about firepower superiority.

There's also the fact that those weapons can fire five times per second. (A New Hope, two Star Destroyers chasing the Millennium Falcon over Tatooine)

Also, maneuverability is tactfully useful in Trek, so apparently targeting systems aren't as good as claimed.
Maneuverability
In the DS9 episode "Paradise Lost" (watched it today), I noticed that the Defiant was flying circles around the Lakota. Yeah, I know the Defiant is smaller than the Excelsior, but even so, it should be able to do a lot more maneuvers than just sitting there and shooting.

And, also, the only ships that can really outmaneuver a Star Destroyer are Sovereigns, Intrepids, and Defiants (maybe Akiras). Unfortunately for Starfleet, those ships aren't all that common currently.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

So, I have discovered some interesting things:

Transporters:
-Transporters cannot pass through 2 Km of granite (TNG:"Legacy"). Therefore, how can they pass through 40-80 Km of durasteel?
-Transporters can't transport through "victurium" alloy. It's an alloy, a simple metal mixture and they can't transport through it... (TNG: "Hero Worship")
-Transporters also cannot work when minor amounts of radiation are around (TNG: "Symbiosis", TNG: "Schisms", TNG: "True Q"
-Transporters also have a hard time locking onto their own ship's reactor (TNG: "The High Ground")
-Transporters can be deflected and/or manipulated by tractor beams (which ships in Star Wars have)(TNG:"Attached")

Basically, transporters wouldn't be all that useful against Star Destroyers.

And we've seen transporters function under 'harsher' conditions as well. I don't think that Trek transporters can beam through SW shields, so they're not going to be very effective weapons if the shields aren't already down to begin with. Beyond that, you could find several examples above, and maybe a few below what you've presented.


Weapon Power
In ESB, when in the asteroid field, a Star Destroyer vaporizes three asteroids using it's point-defense turrets in less than a second (each, that is). These asteroids are made up of nickel-iron, and are 10-40m in diameter.
In the TNG episode "Legacy", it took the Enterprise's phasers about 15 seconds to drill through granite to about 1,600m. Impressive, right? Well let's see; Star Destroyer Avenger vaporizes nickel-iron asteroids in 1/15th of a second with its point-defense turbolaser cannons. That would be 600 meters a second for a total of less than three seconds for the Avenger to use its smallest guns to vaporize the equivalent amount of nickel-iron. And when you consider the fact that iron is denser than granite, and turbolasers rely on nothing but brute force for destruction, that says something about firepower superiority.

Actually, studies show that the average asteroid is really just a dirt clod composed of a mix of nickel, iron and various silicates (rock), held together by what can loosely be called 'gravity', not a solid mass of nickel-iron alloy. Further, even with a solid mass of nickel-iron, instant vaporization is impossible, even total vaporization is impossible, because as part of the target is vaporized, the explosively expanding gas will blow the target apart before it can be entirely vaporized because energy isn't transfered instantaneously. This is even more the case when dealing with a greater and greater percentage of silicates, which are poor conductors of energy.

So, blasting apart a 3-20 meter dirt clod with a .3-second discharge of energy is less impressive than drilling through 1.6 kilometers of solid granite with a 15-second discharge of energy. Further, if I'm remembering my episodes correctly, didn't they have to precisely regulate the output of the phaser array, to avoid creating an exothermic reaction in the planet's atmosphere? That means it wasn't a good measure of a proper full-charge blast.


There's also the fact that those weapons can fire five times per second. (A New Hope, two Star Destroyers chasing the Millennium Falcon over Tatooine)

I thought those came from multiple gun emplacements, not a single gun emplacement, or are you talking about the entire ship being able to fire that many bolts a second?


Also, maneuverability is tactfully useful in Trek, so apparently targeting systems aren't as good as claimed.

Well, considering that SW capital ships barely maneuver, where as ST capital ships tend to jink all over the place, I would disagree.


Maneuverability
In the DS9 episode "Paradise Lost" (watched it today), I noticed that the Defiant was flying circles around the Lakota. Yeah, I know the Defiant is smaller than the Excelsior, but even so, it should be able to do a lot more maneuvers than just sitting there and shooting.

Perspective in space is difficult to perceive. There were no other objects to reference the ships' movement other than themselves, so as the most stationary/least mobile object, the Lakota could easily have had the appearance of standing still when she wasn't. Plus, the Excelsior, an older starship, isn't known for the same kind of maneuverability that newer starships, even larger starships, have displayed.


And, also, the only ships that can really outmaneuver a Star Destroyer are Sovereigns, Intrepids, and Defiants (maybe Akiras). Unfortunately for Starfleet, those ships aren't all that common currently.

I would disagree with that. Star Destroyers have NOT shown any kind of maneuverability to speak of, they could barely maneuver out of each others' way in ANH (or was that ESB? I can't remember which one they collided in). Even the Galaxy class, the biggest ship in the Fed fleet, has shown far superior maneuverability to that. Heh, even the Dominion Dreadnought, which is the size of an ISD and a wallowing pig compared to any Federation ship, has shown far more maneuverability.

[Catamount]

Yeah, sorry Parker but maneuverability isn't something on your side here. First off, you have to realize that the ability of a ship that can move a significant fraction of C dodging weapons fire has NOTHING to do with the capability of a targetting system so much as it's simply a matter of the physical limitations of weaponry used in both Star Trek and Star Wars. Maybe someday one of the 2 universes will find some way to weaponize tachyons, but thus far that hasn't been a reality.

As far as Star Destroyer manueverability is concerned, look at the bulk they have to push around, and the agility (or lack thereof to be more precise) that we've witnessed. I'm fairly certain, not 100%, but fairly certain that I could take a couple of fire extinguisers and attach them to a starbase and achieve greater agility than what a Star Destroyer commonly displays. In fact, I'm pretty sure I could attach a couple of Y-Wings to a 10M wide chunk of solid neutronium (we're pretending for a second that this material could exist in normal space) and have them display greater maneuverablility while towing that than a Star Destroyer displays.

[Unknown-210]

A Star Trek Vs. Star Wars thread, I've seen to many YouTube videos and threads about this. I'm a fan of both, and I've been thinking of a war between them. I'm not taking sides, but, Star Trek is more of a realistic series that has to obey some rules set by the fans and makers, while Star Wars is less tamed, and has the space for more storys and tech. Number wise, Star Wars wins, the massve fleets are no match for the Star Trek fleets, but power wise, I think Star Trek wins with the borg and other tech that might win the war. Its the classic mach up, power Vs. numbers. First lets take at a look at histrory, in WW2, the U.S. had numders on thier side, the pure numers of men and weapons of the ailled armys pushed back Germany and won the war. In the Cold War, the U.S. had weapons that out classed most of the U.S.S.R. weapons, it didn't win the "war" but we got out with more then the Russians. If I have any thing to say, the winner between Star Trek and Star Wars, I think, is impossible to say, the series are just too different. If a winner has to be decided, the winner will have to be picked by the number AND power of the fans. (Quality=Quantity)

[Monkeyspit]

I think HG Wells had it right. I'm betting on a virus.

I'd like to see them all in a single, massive battle. The energies of countless suns are released on each other, smashing through every conceivable type of ship. One technology triumph's over another, only to be destroyed by yet another technology. And then one ship misses its mark. It careens wildly and accidentally smashes into debris. Then another. And another. It becomes noticeable that many ships are missing their mark; their ships colliding accidentally with the enemy and their own fleets. Some coming to a standstill in the midst of the battle. Within minutes an eerie calm descends over the battle scene. There is only debris and drifting ships.

Faintly, over an open communications channel, can be heard a last faint 'achoo.' And then complete silence.

[starshipcaptain]

everyone must know this video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8873109770327160818&ei=4nnYSNefG4uE-wH8w5mzAg&q=star+trek+vs+star+wars&vt=lf)

[Verkruk]

So lets think about this.

In our example here the Empire is obviously the aggressor.
So I'm going to say that they were the discoverers of the rift that leads to the others galaxy/existence/dimension. As such lets say that the Empire pursues a direction that would be based off of scouting information by reliable and competent scouts and other avenues of information gathering that they have open to them.

From this data they would most likely see the Kligons and the Romulans as the greatest threat. yet would note that the Federation seemed to be the current leading power due to better diplomatic manipulations, and being able to ally with some of the larger groups/powers in the area.

If given enough time the Empire would employ the same tactics that we saw from the Dominion.
The Empire is also a very big fan of shock and awe type approaches and tactics. Hit em hard hit fast and do it with style that invokes fear. Much like the Kilgons and Cardassions.
While this tactic would work on some of the individuals in the Federation, as a whole it wouldn't.

So then comes the question of what would the Empire do first?
Who would they target and why. Well since the Feds hold the reigns so to speak, they are the primary target. They probably have enough information to understand that the Romulans will stay out until after it is settled. And they would know that the Feds and Kilgons are allies.

So instead of dedicating their entire fleet in the effort they would take in a force large enough to do the job, and then have enough remaining to tell the Romulans to p i s s off.

We don't know if the Empires spies and scouts would be able to obtain any reliable information on the weapon, shield or general Federation tech other then how effective it the fact that it was there.

So it wouldn't be the entire Empire that would come pouring out of the rift, but rather a large force with the intent of making us p i s s our pants and then being unable to function.
And then hopefully with enough to maintain a large numbers gap in their favor.

We have already seen both of these tactics from a superior foe. The Dominion.(Which if you ask me IS the perfect Star Trek vs Star Wars breakdown.)

It would be an ugly battle and even if we won, we would lose.
And it may be possible that the Federation would be destroyed by the Romulans, the Cardassians, or a rogue or random Borg Super Cube.
Or it may evolve into an automated machine while they attempt to rebuild the fleet one ship at a time.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

It would be an ugly battle and even if we won, we would lose.
And it may be possible that the Federation would be destroyed by the Romulans, the Cardassians, or a rogue or random Borg Super Cube.

You are assuming, though, that the Empire holds superior (or at least comparable) weapons technology and outputs to the Federation, and also that Palpatine would have the foresight and skill to properly deal with foreign powers (something he has had little, if any, experience in since the Empire is the Republic transformed after the Clone Wars were brought to an end and most of the known SW galaxy (larger/small/whatever) fell under Imperial sovereignty). It also requires the Empire to have scouts and operatives skilled in infiltrating not only foreign powers (which is markedly different from infiltrating an insurgent rebellion), but foreign powers that are completely alien and unknown, and that the Empire's scouts would be able to perform such an in-depth reconnaissance without being detected.

Palpatine knows how to manipulate and deceive, and his strategies tend towards the enactment of long-developed and nurtured behind-the-curtain plans that consist of carefully-orchestrated and manipulated events building up to a violent and climactic endgame maneuver. The problem, however, is that such plans take time. A LOT of time, especially when dealing with a myriad of new powers that are completely unknown entitites within which Palpatine would have no hooks or barbs, no means of influencing or controlling. The two likely actions I see him taking are attempting to gain such control, which would take a long time (something that wouldn't normally bother him, but given his age, the Rebellion, and potential influencing factors from the ST galaxy, he may not have or may think he doesn't have such time); the other possibility is a quick, rash attack, striking at this unknown, uncontrollable entity with as much force as he can muster as quickly as he can, hoping to overwhelm it in a blitzkrieg-like assault before the threat it poses can be realized. The latter is a rash action, and would seem unbefitting of Palpatine's careful control and manipulation, but people who have built their entire lives on knowing everything that is going on around them and manipulating and controlling all of it, do tend to act rashly when suddenly confronted with a powerful new entity that is completely unknown to them and entirely beyond their control, especially if they perceive it to be a threat to them.

If, for example, the Rebellion went to the Federation seeking asylum, the Federation (which would probably automatically be rated as a significant threat to his power base by Palpatine) would likely go up at least a couple notches on the threat scale. Given the precariousness of any dictators' power base, especially one with an active rebellion, and his demonstrated tendency to destroy anything that he cannot control and poses a threat to him, Palpatine would likely decide that a pre-emptive attack on the Federation is in order. However, given his patent overconfidence (which appears to have developed mostly after the securing of his hold over the Republic and gaining his power as a dictator, something that would inflate the ego of any man) and the Empire's general lack of advanced military tactics and strategies, it is unlikely that the Empire would perform any great strategy other than what would amount to a blatant charge in force. If the Empire does not hold firepower and defensive strengths comparable to the Federation and her allies, it is unlikely that the Empire would be able to win such a campaign, though they would probably make a few significant or at least notable victories in the opening campaign if they were able to prepare for and launch their attack without alerting the Federation until it was too late.

If the Federation holds a decisive advantage in military strength over the Empire, I think the Emperor would likely bide his time and attack late. That is only, if the Federation demonstrates their tactical superiority (and the Imperial officers are competent enough to recognize that superiority and lacking in over-confidence enough to properly rate the significance), though - I think it likely that Palpatine would order an attack even if he didn't know how the Federation's military power compared to his, especially if given a reason to feel threatened by the Federation (above and beyond his lack of knowledge of and control over them).

[starshipcaptain]

species whys star strek wins

[ajap77]

Star Trek or Star Wars...? :P

Easy for me...Star Trek.

Of course that anyone can say that this is subjected to personal preferences and that there is no way we can tell wich one is better, but for me is a bit easy to say that i prefer ST over SW. Both universes have great lore and great characters but Star Trek will survive the test of time and Star Wars will fade away. The reason for that is simple: SW lore was built around what one can say to be the saga of these 2 men, father and son, one a jedi other a...errr...jedi also but with a much cooler helmet. Having a lore that pushes everything in one direction is bad because sooner or later ideas to expand the lore will become inexistent and everything that for one reason or another is added to the lore will be sucked into this big black hole that SW is. Its a universe that it is not expanding but colapsing, forcing all new content to center itself around the already existent lore: the "Skyalker" saga.

Star Trek is a moving force, from the inside to the outside, its always expanding. It does not revolve around a man, a place or a time. Its lore is based on an ideal, its based on a true human feeling, that we are not alone and that there other races out there. There are no boundaries, no cages, just space exploration and the adventure of knowing that the next day will bring us to another place where no man has gone before. (a bit dramatic but man i love to write that hehe)

[Verkruk]

You are assuming, though, that the Empire holds superior (or at least comparable) weapons technology and outputs to the Federation, and also that Palpatine would have the foresight and skill to properly deal with foreign powers (something he has had little, if any, experience in since the Empire is the Republic transformed after the Clone Wars were brought to an end and most of the known SW galaxy (larger/small/whatever) fell under Imperial sovereignty). It also requires the Empire to have scouts and operatives skilled in infiltrating not only foreign powers (which is markedly different from infiltrating an insurgent rebellion), but foreign powers that are completely alien and unknown, and that the Empire's scouts would be able to perform such an in-depth reconnaissance without being detected.

Palpatine knows how to manipulate and deceive, and his strategies tend towards the enactment of long-developed and nurtured behind-the-curtain plans that consist of carefully-orchestrated and manipulated events building up to a violent and climactic endgame maneuver. The problem, however, is that such plans take time. A LOT of time, especially when dealing with a myriad of new powers that are completely unknown entitites within which Palpatine would have no hooks or barbs, no means of influencing or controlling. The two likely actions I see him taking are attempting to gain such control, which would take a long time (something that wouldn't normally bother him, but given his age, the Rebellion, and potential influencing factors from the ST galaxy, he may not have or may think he doesn't have such time); the other possibility is a quick, rash attack, striking at this unknown, uncontrollable entity with as much force as he can muster as quickly as he can, hoping to overwhelm it in a blitzkrieg-like assault before the threat it poses can be realized. The latter is a rash action, and would seem unbefitting of Palpatine's careful control and manipulation, but people who have built their entire lives on knowing everything that is going on around them and manipulating and controlling all of it, do tend to act rashly when suddenly confronted with a powerful new entity that is completely unknown to them and entirely beyond their control, especially if they perceive it to be a threat to them.

If, for example, the Rebellion went to the Federation seeking asylum, the Federation (which would probably automatically be rated as a significant threat to his power base by Palpatine) would likely go up at least a couple notches on the threat scale. Given the precariousness of any dictators' power base, especially one with an active rebellion, and his demonstrated tendency to destroy anything that he cannot control and poses a threat to him, Palpatine would likely decide that a pre-emptive attack on the Federation is in order. However, given his patent overconfidence (which appears to have developed mostly after the securing of his hold over the Republic and gaining his power as a dictator, something that would inflate the ego of any man) and the Empire's general lack of advanced military tactics and strategies, it is unlikely that the Empire would perform any great strategy other than what would amount to a blatant charge in force. If the Empire does not hold firepower and defensive strengths comparable to the Federation and her allies, it is unlikely that the Empire would be able to win such a campaign, though they would probably make a few significant or at least notable victories in the opening campaign if they were able to prepare for and launch their attack without alerting the Federation until it was too late.

If the Federation holds a decisive advantage in military strength over the Empire, I think the Emperor would likely bide his time and attack late. That is only, if the Federation demonstrates their tactical superiority (and the Imperial officers are competent enough to recognize that superiority and lacking in over-confidence enough to properly rate the significance), though - I think it likely that Palpatine would order an attack even if he didn't know how the Federation's military power compared to his, especially if given a reason to feel threatened by the Federation (above and beyond his lack of knowledge of and control over them).

That was only based on a fair fight between the two powers.
A real one in my opinion would have the Federations list of dead being those that died of old age.

There would be no ship or loss of life on the Federation side.

As for the Emperor... he can literally live forever. Just needs clone bodies to do so.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

That was only based on a fair fight between the two powers.
A real one in my opinion would have the Federations list of dead being those that died of old age.

There would be no ship or loss of life on the Federation side.

I don't entirely agree that there would be no casualties on the Federation's side - I think the Empire would attack in huge numbers and gain a few initial victories against an unprepared Federation at first, but then would quickly be beaten back with ease after Starfleet brings its full force to bear. By comparison, though, the Federation's losses would be very minimal.

[mintor426]

what you guys , think ?

[Napalmer]

As the federation is pushed back by the ruthless (and lets be honest here) tactically superior Empire, Q gets bored and implodes the verse, leaving only his beloved federation playthings



:D


(please dont flame me)

[knightwolf77]

*takes a flamethrower and pulls the trigger pointing at Napalmer* U been flamed hehehe :D

Seriously though between Star Wars and Star Trek I have to say I can't choose between the 2 as I love them both and I love Stargate SG1.I have to say i hate the dang SWG though game sux,but I can't wait for Star Trek Online and Stargate Worlds to come out.They're both gona be awesome to play as a MMORPG SciFic Fantasy Games and will blow SWG out of the market I think.

[Syphus]

I have to say the empire would beat the federation hands down.
Whenever a federations shields get hit the crew get thrown around like mad.
When the falcon takes hits it shakes a little :P.
Based off the volume of firepower an ISD throws out the fed ships are going to get shot a lot.
No way a crew can operate whilst pinned to the floor and losing their lunch :P.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

As the federation is pushed back by the ruthless (and lets be honest here) tactically superior Empire, Q gets bored and implodes the verse, leaving only his beloved federation playthings

Actually, the Imperial tactics (and the tactics of the Republic, and pretty much everyone in the SW galaxy save the brighter bulbs in the Rebellion) are far from superior to anything. They essentially boil down to massed line charges (all observed ground battles save for the Rebel infiltration of the shield facility on Endor), and fleet engagements are little more than ships pulling up to each other, engaging their parking break, then exchanging broadsides like a bunch of 16th-19th Century sailing ships (and not even really like those, because the fleet battles of the Age of Sail involved MANEUVERING, unlike the SW fleet battles, which mostly involve sitting next to each other and hoping your shields and/or weapons out-do the other guy's).

Massed line charges, especially massed infantry charges (and ESPECIALLY the marching lines of infantry used by the Trade Federation), became obsolete in the Revolutionary War, and were rendered completely useless by the advent of the machine gun. In the face of Starfleet phasers, which have demonstrated considerably superior accuracy (even in their worst moments) to SW blasters, as well as superior range and firepower, and the ability to fire on a wide-beam setting, and the ability to fire rapid pulses, a massed charge of Imperial Storm Troopers against even lightly entrenched Starfleet infantry (i.e. a bunch of security personnel taking cover behind some convenient debris, structures, what-have-you) would be decimated with relatively minimal losses to the Starfleet personnel.

Fleet engagements are similar - Imperial ships would try to pull up alongside Federation ships, park, and exchange broadsides. Starfleet ships would NOT comply with that - they would be actively engaged in all sorts of maneuvers, evading the Imperial ships, and constantly repositioning themselves to optimize their firing arcs and the Imperials' targeting profiles, while minimizing the Imperial firing arcs and their own targeting profiles. They would also be moving ships around to out-flank the Imperials, and trying to lure them into compromising positions, or into traps and ambushes.

Imperial tactics are atrocious. Just watch the new CGI clone wars episodes, or ANY battle in any of the movies, for that matter. The ONLY maneuver of tactical cunning made by the Imperials was when they moved the fleet behind Endor to hide it from the coming Rebel fleet. Everything else, EVERYTHING else, was just little more than a massed charge with overwhelming force.

[Napalmer]

At least imperials use Line tactics. Federation ships roll around until they blow up

[chaotix987]

Star Trek v Star Wars arguement are pointless. Let's stop arguing.:(

[ToadMonkey]

Star Trek is for three-dimensional thinkers
Star Wars Is for two-dimensional thinkers " good vs bad"

Those who don't see the limited scope of Star Wars are one-dimensional thinkers! :p

Star Trek isn't about battles/war all the time. :rolleyes:

[amdg3x7]

I like both Star wars and Star Trek. Only Star trek has more depth in my opinion.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

At least imperials use Line tactics. Federation ships roll around until they blow up

Fed ships have used line tactics as well, on a few occasions, just not with the inflexible rigidity that the Imperials use. Further, because they are far more agile than Imperial ships, with far superior weapons coverage for their main batteries (i.e. their main guns can fire across a very large arc, not just broadsides), Federation ships are much less suited to rigid line tactics, because such rigid formations and maneuvers would hamper the ships' ability to maneuver.

Starfleet has surpassed the advantages of line tactics, through superior application of tactical and strategic knowledge and skill, and through superior design. Faced with an Imperial battle line, Starfleet wouldn't form their own line of battle and charge into their teeth, they would fall into formations that more effectively optimize their firing arcs while reducing their targeting profiles, and engage in maneuvers far superior to simply lining up and charging at the enemy.

[War_Eagle]

Worst thread ever-

[The_Vulcan_Kid]

At least imperials use Line tactics. Federation ships roll around until they blow up

Have you ever heard of the Picard maneuver, my friend? I call that a tactic.

Anyway, I like Star Trek better.:D

Okay...Now I see why this thread could be a bad idea...

[chaotix987]

Have you ever heard of the Picard maneuver, my friend? I call that a tactic.

Anyway, I like Star Trek better.:D

Okay...Now I see why this thread could be a bad idea...

This thread is a horrible idea!

[starshipcaptain]

im not saying whose better in this one

a big battleship in SW can fire at a rapid rate
a ST vessel need time to charges it phasers

speed wise i think ST is faster

[Ilithi_Dragon]

This thread is a horrible idea!

No it isn't. Nor is it a waste of time. This thread was created for the purpose of entertainment, for those of us who enjoy debating the tactical, strategic, technological and general military strengths of the concept of ST vs SW. It's purely for entertainment - and let's face it, nobody is exactly posting here to cure cancer. If you don't find it an interesting topic, don't read it. If you can't keep a fairly civil and courteous attitude, don't post.

Just remember to treat each other with courtesy and respect, and don't expect people to take your speculation or theory as hard fact without a fair amount of supporting evidence, and these debates can be a LOT of fun.


That said, on topic, the Federation has, time and again, demonstrated an emphasis on ingenius tactical and strategic maneuvers and ploys, that play to maximum success with minimum losses, where as the Empire (and the Republic) has, time and again, demonstrated an emphasis on the devaluation of the common soldier and victory by attrition through overwhelming force. In the Empire, the troops are just cannon fodder to spend faster than a pork barreling politian spends taxpayer money, good only for throwing at the enemy until they overwhelm the enemy or are all dead. In the Federation, the troops are valued assets, and valued people, who are spent wisely and carefully, for the greatest return for the lives invested. The Empire's overall strategic policy doesn't NEED anything more than basic tactics, where as the Federation's overall strategic policy encourages and BREEDS advanced and ingenius tactics.

[Phlashman]

Starfleet wins this one, the Empire dreadnoughts would be defenseless against photon and quantum torpedoes. Not to mention the heavy phaser fire. A smart Starfleet Admiral would use his frigates and destroyers to take out the fighters and use his Cruisers/ Battlecruisers and heavier ships to deal with the Imperial heavies, After years of tactical experience dealing with the Borg, the Fed's would clean their clock.!!!

[Badwolfwho]

http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/
Topic Over
Empire would win

[Ilithi_Dragon]

http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/
Topic Over
Empire would win

lawl

We've already been over that site before (though it's burried many pages back). Mike Wong's figures are obsurdly magnified, using bad science, rigged non-canon figures from the Expanded Universe, and sometimes just fallacious assumptions and conclusions wrapped up in the guise of a scientific conclusion that ignores several laws of physics, and science in general.

[Badwolfwho]

The Expanded Universe is canon though

[Roberto]

http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/
Topic Over
Empire would win


Christ, why did you re-post that filth here....

[JadeEngima]

The Expanded Universe is canon though

Which one? :confused:

[vp21ct]

Which one? :confused:

and so it is not cannon.

the EU is only considered partial cannon, making it compatable whilst it does not conflict with actual cannon.

That said, Star Wars tries very hard to make it as Cannon as possible, but even they have faltered at points, nulifieing any attempt to make it Hard Cannon.

[Badwolfwho]

and so it is not cannon.

the EU is only considered partial cannon, making it compatable whilst it does not conflict with actual cannon.

That said, Star Wars tries very hard to make it as Cannon as possible, but even they have faltered at points, nulifieing any attempt to make it Hard Cannon.

George Lucas himself has said it's canon so theregore it is

[Ilithi_Dragon]

George Lucas himself has said it's canon so theregore it is

Actually, Lucas himself has established that the EU is separate from his films universe. See here (http://canonwars.com/SWCanon2-condensedmore.html) for an ultra-condensed overview of the SW canon, here (http://canonwars.com/SWCanon2-condensed.html) for a less-condensed overview, and only click here (http://canonwars.com/SWCanon2.html) if you have a few hours to waste. Also, see this blog post (http://www.canonwars.com/weblog/2008/08/defense-of-chee_2850.html) for a couple recent quotes from some Lucasfilms continuity people posted on the SW.com forums, where it is expressly stated by said continuity experts (i.e. their job is to maintain continuity in the SW saga) that the films and EU continuities are separate.

The EU is great material, but not part of the official film canon - it has its own canon and internal continuity, but it is a separate, parallel story.

[captainlukea]

the Q being would, if persuaded that it is in his best interests, just click his fingers and anything star wars would simply vanish.

sorry

[chaotix987]

the Q being would, if persuaded that it is in his best interests, just click his fingers and anything star wars would simply vanish.

sorry

Nuff' said.

[Phlashman]

http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/
Topic Over
Empire would win


"NOT"!!!:D

[captainlukea]

you dont need to look to weopon tech or physical science to at least put this one to rest.
logically the Q being is imensley powerfull yet childish at the best of times, so its fair to say that his power combined with his fascination for humanity would bring out a defence far greater than any weopon or shield could ever do.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

you dont need to look to weopon tech or physical science to at least put this one to rest.
logically the Q being is imensley powerfull yet childish at the best of times, so its fair to say that his power combined with his fascination for humanity would bring out a defence far greater than any weopon or shield could ever do.

And since when has Q ever done anything like that? The Borg are vastly superior to the Empire, yet he didn't save the Federation from them, just tossed them into their path (one could argue that doing so 'saved' the Federation, but that's a whole different debate).

Q wouldn't interfere, it's beneath him. He creates 'games' or whatever entertainment he finds amusing, and occasionally throws the guise of teaching a lesson over top of it. He's not in the business of saving mere mortals from other mere mortals just because.

[chaotix987]

And since when has Q ever done anything like that? The Borg are vastly superior to the Empire, yet he didn't save the Federation from them, just tossed them into their path (one could argue that doing so 'saved' the Federation, but that's a whole different debate).

Q wouldn't interfere, it's beneath him. He creates 'games' or whatever entertainment he finds amusing, and occasionally throws the guise of teaching a lesson over top of it. He's not in the business of saving mere mortals from other mere mortals just because.

Sez you. You don't know what Q would do.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Sez you. You don't know what Q would do.

lol 'sez you'. } ; = 8 )

Anyway, way back when I first started this thread, it wasn't with the intention of going "HA! We have Super Thingy/Person/God/Weapon/Man X! (TM) We win!" It was to have a fun debate and discussion about who would win a hypothetical conflict between the United Federation of Planets and the Galactic Empire. Goofiness is all well and good, though (and I make more than my fair share of it) - keeps things light. } : = 8 )

[chaotix987]

Okay, I'll join your "debate".

Were sheilds ever established in Star Wars?

[vp21ct]

Okay, I'll join your "debate".

Were sheilds ever established in Star Wars? I've only seen episodes 3 and 4, so I'm not well informed.

yes, but the biggest point of debate here is whether those sheilds include transporter inhibitors.

[chaotix987]

yes, but the biggest point of debate here is whether those sheilds include transporter inhibitors.

I'm sure Star Wars doesn't have a transporter, so why would the ships have transporter inhibitors?