The Galaxy: How big do you want it?

[Squirrel]

Well, it just occured to me that the Galaxy in which we play in (with the Alpha Quadrant, Delta Quadrant etc.) could be to small or too big. One of the Major problems with SWG (Star Wars Galaxies for anyone that is not aquainted with its abbreviation) was that the planets were way too big for their own good. It would take decades to travel across the endless barrens of Tatooine or trek through the heavy foliage of Kashyyk. Are the planets going to be too big/small? Are we going to have set paths to go through on planets, so we cant roam around them or can we do what we want, when we want.

To be realistic, the planets are huge and therefore we should be able to travel all the way across them, whether stupidly on foot or across the landscape on a shuttlecraft. I would like to see the ability to do this, but also give us an easier option, like beaming down to certain locations. Can you just be beamed to a different location on that planet or do you need to have the Co-ordinates for that location before being able to beam down to it, therefore having to travel "manually" there first. A bit like Flight Paths on WoW (World of Warcraft for anyone that isnt familiar). You cant travel there unless you have been there already.

Then we come to Space itself. Are we always going to be in the vicinity of a planet or Space Station or can we go into open space where there are nothing but the stars to guide us. Maybe they should put in an ability to drift, like in the series. Where you can just attend to crew matters or while you are in your quarters. I want the ability to do it, but obviously want an easier option. Just warping to places seems like a good idea, but will that take the fun out of it? Can you set a destination and let your starship drift so you can lay back and chill with your fellow crewmates. Will it all have to be done in a click of a finger or can you take your time?

Star Trek Space is HUGE. The chances are you while travelling through space in its entirity, you wont see the same Romulan Warbird more then once. So what happens when your fleet is spread out between a very large area. Can you all Warp to the same location, or does it put you in a large vicinity of a certain area. When you Warp to a different sector of space, will you be put in a default location or just the closest side of the sector from where you warped? What do you guys think? What would you want to see happen? What interests you about the way this could work?

By all means, talk about it. I would love to see what some peoples ideas are for this, as to get a grip of what we might be expecting.

[Falin]

I want ti so big that even after playing for 5 years, i've only seen a small fraction of it. :)

[BLZBUB49]

I am with Falin on this. Perhaps even larger if possible! :p

[IanD967]

I want ti so big that even after playing for 5 years, i've only seen a small fraction of it. :)

totally agree! although we know it wont be possible to have a galaxy that big at launch so parts would need to be added later but yeah it should be pretty dam big :D

[Ramierez]

I would really prefer for it to be large worlds/galaxy, using a standard coordinate system to navigate.

If you have a mission on a planet, you'd get the closest safe transport coordinates as a selection for that, but otherwise you could beam to most any coordinates you wanted that wouldn't put you in a wall or the mantle of the planet itself, etc.

For space it should be the same. When you warp you have to set your heading, or rather, your destination coordinates, and off you go. They'll probably have each system or 'area' being a zone, with the planets being zones of their own, etc.

It really makes a nice way for them to control the zoning since you'd either warp - to zone out of the system - or you'd use the transporter - to zone down to a planet. If they could do a more seamless approach to the planets in the systems, like IQE will have, I'd prefer that, but I'd be pretty sure that each system at least will be how they separate the zones.

[Falin]

well i wasn't meaning right at launch, but the initial one should be big enough that after a yea of play you haven't seen even half of it, that way they can add new areas every 6months and expand i to the point it's so big no player ever could see it all within 5 years of playing.

Plus if it's really big, and you're bored, you can always roll a new character and try a different area, the replayabilty potential is very strong.

[Brenelael]

I would like to see at least the Alpha and Beta quadrants at launch. Maybe they could do at least part of the Gamma quadrant in an expansion sometime in the future. I'm hoping that they use some sort of procedural system for unknown planets so they can get the most varied types as possible. I do however expect all of the well known planets to be in at launch with some of the lesser known ones thrown in as "Easter eggs" for the lucky player that finds them. These may include some of the ones from the original series like Iotia (The 20's gangster planet) and some others.

As for land mass per planet I'd like for each planet to be fully mapped but would settle for at least one large open area to explore per planet with maybe some mission specific instances thrown in as well. I do however think that there should be hundreds of explorable planets, some known and some unknown. Everything from small barren planets to gas giants should be represented.

As for deep space I'd like there to be anomalies, giant space creatures, dead stars, nebulae and a lot more for us as players to discover and explore. The possibilities are quite limitless with the lore that Star Trek provides. I want to find new things even after I've been playing for 2 years or more.

Bren

[jtarwin]

I believe we should start with a limited amount of destinations and have to “find” the other places. Star Trek is about finding and exploring new places. This means new places should be introduced as the game goes on.

[jtarwin]

Also, I feel the worlds should be small due to transporter and shuttle craft travel. If a mission causes us to have to walk across the burning waste then it should be an instance run. Planets are only big when you have to walk or drive across them, otherwise you zip directly to the cool spots.

[Squirrel]

jtarwin, i think you hit the nail on the head with that one. I didnt think about that, it means that you dont have an automatic knowledge of where everything is. If you wanted to find some random planet out in the middle of nowhere, you would have to search for it. Although, Starfleet would have a Database of known planets anyway, so i think you should start off with most of the known ones.

Obviously Space Stations will be dotted around the place, so the chances are any planets near there will be known and so on and so forth.

[Raven0238]

I want ti so big that even after playing for 5 years, i've only seen a small fraction of it. :)

I completely agree, but of course, perhaps new sectors can be released over time with different game publishes.

[k.mpok]

I wouldn't mind the galaxy being so large that we never see it all as well but then we run back into the problem of ship speed.

I am all for a realistic speed but I doubt even the hard core fans in support of realistic speed would want to wait 5 years (real time) just to get to reach a few of the further outpost.

I say we start off with quadrants (with each expansion being a new quadrant. Each quadrant should be large enough to keep players busy for a atleast a year as to avoid the problem (often plaguing MMOs) of having little to no End Game content and speed lvlers.

[Falin]

I completely agree, but of course, perhaps new sectors can be released over time with different game publishes.


this actually ties into my post here (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=4706), of which no ones replied :(. but basically they can release regions aat a time, thus expandingt he game easily.

[Miganto]

It should be mind bogglingly (totally a word) huge!

Eve was amazing when it started, because even after 6 months to a year, noone had seen everywhere, of course, there was a huge influx of people, and that novelty wore off...

I think it'd be great to have it really really huge, and have it constantly expanding so as to keep new areas explorable.

[Garbo]

I think that the Galaxy should be endless or close to endless!

[Ktarzus]

At least as large as EVE!

[marshalleck]

It needs to be absolutely massive and open and it should be possible to become completely lost. I am sick of tiny little worlds with markers "go here! then go over there!" in supposed MMORPGs.

[ob1klone]

well i wasn't meaning right at launch, but the initial one should be big enough that after a yea of play you haven't seen even half of it, that way they can add new areas every 6months and expand i to the point it's so big no player ever could see it all within 5 years of playing.

Plus if it's really big, and you're bored, you can always roll a new character and try a different area, the replayabilty potential is very strong.


Cryptic is not going to build a universe that large for this game ever, let alone, at launch.

I would expect to see maybe 5 or possibly, if we are lucky, 10 sectors of constant space. In addition to that I would like to see a bunch of instanced planets. This is for the devs, if they are reading. How ever many sectors you give us please consider giving us one more. That is, one more than you tell us. A secret sector, would be awesome. I love easter eggs in games. Make findable only by randome, unrepeatable means. In other words, make it a different path to finding it for everyone. I know this is a tall task, but it would be such a cool thing.:cool:

[Falin]

Cryptic is not going to build a universe that large for this game ever, let alone, at launch.

I would expect to see maybe 5 or possibly, if we are lucky, 10 sectors of constant space. In addition to that I would like to see a bunch of instanced planets. This is for the devs, if they are reading. How ever many sectors you give us please consider giving us one more. That is, one more than you tell us. A secret sector, would be awesome. I love easter eggs in games. Make findable only by randome, unrepeatable means. In other words, make it a different path to finding it for everyone. I know this is a tall task, but it would be such a cool thing.:cool:

you don't know their minds and neither do I, they could be planning just what i stated, or they could be proposing a clone of COH, with zones and loading insances between them. i hope they plan for my idea, as it leads to far mroe replayabilty and long term players.

[ob1klone]

you don't know their minds and neither do I, they could be planning just what i stated, or they could be proposing a clone of COH, with zones and loading insances between them. i hope they plan for my idea, as it leads to far mroe replayabilty and long term players.

You're rite, I don't know what they planning. And I'm not even against your idea, but I'm thinking realisticly. With a universe as large as you are propossing, who is going to fill it with content, that makes it worth having? It would be kind of pointless to have a huge area of space to fly around in, unless there is a reason to fly around in it. I don't want to travel for hours in space and find a new planet, only to discover, there isn't anything speacial about it.

[Falin]

You're rite, I don't know what they planning. And I'm not even against your idea, but I'm thinking realisticly. With a universe as large as you are propossing, who is going to fill it with content, that makes it worth having? It would be kind of pointless to have a huge area of space to fly around in, unless there is a reason to fly around in it. I don't want to travel for hours in space and find a new planet, only to discover, there isn't anything speacial about it.

and isn't that the point of star trek? many a times they found new planets, nebulas, and other space aspects that were just plain normal, but it was that one planet in a 20 that they thought would be bland that they found intellegent life, or some ancient races city.

[boz75]

I would like to see the Alpha and Beta quadrant in at launch with other quadrants available as large expansion packs (which I am willing to pay for to ensure that we get good quality and enough content)

I would hope that there is enough depth/content in the game when it's launched to satisfy all players (even ones that play 24/7)

[Busby08]

Myself. I'd prefer if space was huge, i mean you have warp speed. So of course you can up the juice travel to your destination quicker. On planets.... not so easy. So i want space to be huge but planets to be a nice size, where it wouldn't take my hours to travel, and tbh i don't think you need an entire planet to explore, only points of interest such as cities and ruins etc...

[ahrubik]

Well, it just occured to me that the Galaxy in which we play in (with the Alpha Quadrant, Delta Quadrant etc.) could be to small or too big. One of the Major problems with SWG (Star Wars Galaxies for anyone that is not aquainted with its abbreviation) was that the planets were way too big for their own good. It would take decades to travel across the endless barrens of Tatooine or trek through the heavy foliage of Kashyyk. Are the planets going to be too big/small? Are we going to have set paths t...

BLASPHEMY!

The galaxy can never be too big as long as there is adequate ability to travel. The planet size of SWG was great! It allowed people to spread out and "colonize" the planet which I hope is something Cryptic has thought about allowing us to do with non cannon worlds.

The planets should be big enough that you cannot walk around the world in anywhere close to a reasonable amount of time and they should be big enough that even vehicle travel would be prohibitive over large scale transportation such as shuttles, the transporter or spacecraft.

[Lepton]

There are some estimated 200 to 400 BILLION stars in the Milky Way. Even some fractional representation of this number would be impossible to represent in any kind of virtual space. It's likely that there will be a few major places in the Star Trek Universe represented as dedicated areas that players can inhabitat and interact with each other at the same time. Exploration type missions will likely be instanced "dungeons" that will not have any type of physical representation in the virtual galaxy. Even Infinity: The Quest for Earth is going to be generating its planets and areas of exploration procedurally. If the STO galaxy is "large", it will only be "large" in the sense that there will be large supply of exploration missions that one might do, but those explored spaces are likely never to be accessible by any other person in the game.

[ob1klone]

and isn't that the point of star trek? many a times they found new planets, nebulas, and other space aspects that were just plain normal, but it was that one planet in a 20 that they thought would be bland that they found intellegent life, or some ancient races city.

That is most certanly NOT the point of star Trek as we know it. Star Trek for most people, is what they see on TV, or read in a book. In those two mediums, I can't emember anything more than a pssing meantion or a few minutes at the start of a episode where, what you describe is the case. They don't show that stuff on TV or write about it in the books because it is borring. Who is going to tune in to watch the crew of the Enterprise flying through space to find a planet where nothing happens, and then they leave. End of episode, see ya next week. There wouldn't be many people watching for long.

That would also be the same for this game. People are not going to play for long, if they just fly around mapping uninhabited planets and spacial anomolies. This game is not going to be a sim, no matter how badly some may want it to be.

[marshalleck]

That is most certanly NOT the point of star Trek as we know it. Star Trek for most people, is what they see on TV, or read in a book. In those two mediums, I can't emember anything more than a pssing meantion or a few minutes at the start of a episode where, what you describe is the case. They don't show that stuff on TV or write about it in the books because it is borring. Who is going to tune in to watch the crew of the Enterprise flying through space to find a planet where nothing happens, and then they leave. End of episode, see ya next week. There wouldn't be many people watching for long.

That would also be the same for this game. People are not going to play for long, if they just fly around mapping uninhabited planets and spacial anomolies. This game is not going to be a sim, no matter how badly some may want it to be.

Are we watching the same shows? Almost every episode of TNG (arguably the most popular show of the new era) starts with them surveying a solar system, collecting data from random stars, or engaged in some other mundane task related to research, exploration or diplomacy. Then something unexpected happens.

[lumpking69]

ide like it big enough so that it actually feels like exploration when you move about the 'verse !

[JSM3050]

Cryptic should start with the major powers (Federation, Klingon, Romulan, etc.) and make the galaxy large enough that players can get a feel for how their own side has progressed since the end of Nemesis. By the time players start having regular and influential contact with other factions (i.e. missions such as "The Klingons are gearing up for their annual Civil War and we want you to go help ____ House win."), then Cryptic should roll out new content, preferably close to "home" such as the Dominion or an influx of Borg cubes.

[Adonisaleus]

that'll probably be the way they'll go.

and besides, form Cryptics view point, making content that no one will see is a waste of effort.

[marshalleck]

that'll probably be the way they'll go.

and besides, form Cryptics view point, making content that no one will see is a waste of effort.

This is actually a good reason for the game to be non-linear sandbox and certain mission-specific solar systems dynamically generated while all the major locations from the lore would be modeled individually.

[ob1klone]

Are we watching the same shows? Almost every episode of TNG (arguably the most popular show of the new era) starts with them surveying a solar system, collecting data from random stars, or engaged in some other mundane task related to research, exploration or diplomacy. Then something unexpected happens.


Maybe I slightly unnderstated it, but the fact is this. Those incidents are no more than plot points. They have never been the basis for a story. And I promise you. If This game turns out to be some mundane space flight sim, where all you do is fly around a huge empty gallaxy hopeing to find a planet that could provide some content, this game will be very short lived.

[marshalleck]

Maybe I slightly unnderstated it, but the fact is this. Those incidents are no more than plot points. They have never been the basis for a story. And I promise you. If This game turns out to be some mundane space flight sim, where all you do is fly around a huge empty gallaxy hopeing to find a planet that could provide some content, this game will be very short lived.

And let me point out to you that if it is simply WoW in space with a Star Trek theme, the game will go down in flames. Guaranteed.

[ob1klone]

And let me point out to you that if it is simply WoW in space with a Star Trek theme, the game will go down in flames. Guaranteed.

What is your point. Who said anything about WOW in space? Do you read or just post the first thing that comes to mind? :confused:

[Cactus]

As per my Sig, I'd love to see 6hrs+ flight time at a Warp everyone can attain easily (say Warp 6) to travel from one extreme of known space to the other.

Then again I'd be happy at the other end of the spectrum being days away from civilised space - I'd love to be able to quote Kirk (and J.M Barrie, I know) and say to my helmsman "Second star to the right, and straight on 'til morning".

[marshalleck]

What is your point. Who said anything about WOW in space? Do you read or just post the first thing that comes to mind? :confused:

Talk of small universe where everything is plotted out, "have a reason to go there" etc, instanced areas (in space? pathetic) and many years of playing MMOs before and after that one big game and seeing certain trends in the industry as the target demographic changes all lead me to mentioning WoW. Is that a good enough reason for you or is it too much information to correlate?

[Reinkaos]

Then again I'd be happy at the other end of the spectrum being days away from civilised space - I'd love to be able to quote Kirk (and J.M Barrie, I know) and say to my helmsman "Second star to the right, and straight on 'til morning".
I agree. I'd like to be outside of "known space" and explore, say, a few days (so what, a few hour's gametime at max warp?) away from Starfleet's most remote outpost/base :p

and along the same lines, I hope there aren't huge "off limits" areas that only serve to make the map look bigger,. but I do think there should be ion storms, black holes and such that are essentially impenetrable except to specifically-adapted craft, like science vessels or something :D it would encourage interaction between ships to explore the map, and would help people discover things together.

[Torgrim]

As big as possible so there is always new places to go were i havent been before.

[Nonderyon]

I vote for EVE-online large or so :) (but need some miracle without lagg )

[Cactus]

I vote for EVE-online large or so :) (but need some miracle without lagg )

Lag? you'll only get that in Sector 001, or Jita as it's known elsewhere.

[ob1klone]

Talk of small universe where everything is plotted out, "have a reason to go there" etc, instanced areas (in space? pathetic) and many years of playing MMOs before and after that one big game and seeing certain trends in the industry as the target demographic changes all lead me to mentioning WoW. Is that a good enough reason for you or is it too much information to correlate?

How many years of playing MMO's do you have? Not many I would say. Because the things you listed are all of the features that make up an MMO. And always have. As for correlating information, do some math on this fact. Game makers have a limited amount of money to make a game. Any resources spent have to be justifyable. Any feature added to the game that has no real signifgance is simply a waste of time and money.

You say instances in space is pathetic. Using instances Cryptic could make fifty planets that are totally accesable at launch as opposed to two or three after they waste all their time making the universe big enough for you to get lost in. But I am sure you would be happy flying through space cataloging space dust for five hours a night hoping to find a planet with something remotly interesting on it.

The simple truth is Cryptic is making a game here, not a sim. A game is supossed to fun. Let me repeat that, "A game is supossed to be FUN." Yea, I know what you are going to say. Who am I to tell you what is fun and what isn't. You would be rite, I can't, but guess what. The masses can tell a game maker what they think is fun. And I promise you, there aren't nearly enough people out there that want to play this game that want it to be a sim.

[marshalleck]

If they're hedging their bets that a Star Trek MMO is going to be successful as a space combat game with NPC away parties, I think they have comically mis-identified the player demographic that would be attracted to a Star Trek MMO; much as the 720+ replies to "100 Billion Captains" thread suggests.

[Reinkaos]

Spatial anomalies would make good space-instances

http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Tyken's_Rift

[ob1klone]

If they're hedging their bets that a Star Trek MMO is going to be successful as a space combat game with NPC away parties, I think they have comically mis-identified the player demographic that would be attracted to a Star Trek MMO; much as the 70+ pages of "100 Billion Captains" thread suggests.


So you are basing this games player demographic on the four or five thousand people that logged into this site when it launched. The majority of people that are here now are the same people that have been following this game since it was mistakenly announced by PE four years ago. In couple of months, when information starts comming out about the game, that is when the potential players will start to show. Like you said in your last post. I too, have been playing MMO's for years. I will make a bet with you. When we start getting the details about this game. Half, if not more than half of the people here now, will be long gone. That's the way it always goes.

[ngille]

So you are basing this games player demographic on the four or five thousand people that logged into this site when it launched. The majority of people that are here now are the same people that have been following this game since it was mistakenly announced by PE four years ago. In couple of months, when information starts comming out about the game, that is when the potential players will start to show. Like you said in your last post. I too, have been playing MMO's for years. I will make a bet with you. When we start getting the details about this game. Half, if not more than half of the people here now, will be long gone. That's the way it always goes.

I'd have to dissagree on the half will be gone. Yeah we'll lose people as more details are forthcoming, but the more info they provide (as well as vids and screenshots) the more the hype for the game will build and we'll have an insane number of people over here.

I'd say worse case scenerio we'll lose 20% because they don't like this feature or that feature but unless cryptic really starts pulling an SOE then most of us are here for the duration. Not counting of course the occasion breaks people understandably take from the forums.

[marshalleck]

Considering I had only passing familiarity with what PE was doing and my only hint of what Cryptic is up to with this game is from what's said on their website, my first reaction was "wow, how could they so cleanly miss the whole point of Star Trek?"

Sorry, I won't be taking any bets. It's not clear how much their game is based on past work on the title, if any, and I have no idea what they plan to reveal. If we really are looking at EVE minus the customization and open-ended gameplay in exchange for NPC crews to fly around solo in instanced space...lol.

[ob1klone]

I'd have to dissagree on the half will be gone. Yeah we'll lose people as more details are forthcoming, but the more info they provide (as well as vids and screenshots) the more the hype for the game will build and we'll have an insane number of people over here.

I'd say worse case scenerio we'll lose 20% because they don't like this feature or that feature but unless cryptic really starts pulling an SOE then most of us are here for the duration. Not counting of course the occasion breaks people understandably take from the forums.

I have no doubt that as the info starts to flow, more and more people will come here. My point is that the people here currently will be gone. I have read alot of posts on this board, and they are being made by people who just won't be happy with the way this game will turn out. No matter what Cryptic says, they just won't be able to make a game good enough for gammers and Hard core Star Trek fans. That is we have here at the moment. The gammers will come latter.

[ngille]

I have no doubt that as the info starts to flow, more and more people will come here. My point is that the people here currently will be gone. I have read alot of posts on this board, and they are being made by people who just won't be happy with the way this game will turn out. No matter what Cryptic says, they just won't be able to make a game good enough for gammers and Hard core Star Trek fans. That is we have here at the moment. The gammers will come latter.

You are undoubtedly correct on that aspect. The thing is, no game no matter how good it is (in anyone's opinion) will appeal to all gamers.

I see a lot of hardcore type posts that want uber realism, massive pvp (gankfest style) death penalties that would make EVE blush and yeah I think a lot of those will be gone and most of them I won't miss. The ones that accept that this is a mmo and in that will depend on subscriptions in order to survive are the ones that will be here at launch plus a few that just don't get it of course.

I will admit this much though, and yes I realize these forums aren't quite a week old yet, but so far the community has been pretty cool so far. Only seen a couple of trolls and no outright flaming......yet but I know its coming.

[ob1klone]

You are undoubtedly correct on that aspect. The thing is, no game no matter how good it is (in anyone's opinion) will appeal to all gamers.

I see a lot of hardcore type posts that want uber realism, massive pvp (gankfest style) death penalties that would make EVE blush and yeah I think a lot of those will be gone and most of them I won't miss. The ones that accept that this is a mmo and in that will depend on subscriptions in order to survive are the ones that will be here at launch plus a few that just don't get it of course.

I will admit this much though, and yes I realize these forums aren't quite a week old yet, but so far the community has been pretty cool so far. Only seen a couple of trolls and no outright flaming......yet but I know its coming.

Agreed on all points. I have been around from the begining of alot of MMO's, and I can tell you this. These initial growing pains that the community goes through , is always tough to bare.

[Dustnite]

Um, I'll take my Galaxy with a large fry and could you supersize my drink?

[spokechecker5000]

Well All I am going to say is that I hope for the bigger side I want to feel like the space is real and that does mean a little bit of time between worlds and some large exploreable areas on the surface of these worlds but I don't think everyone is going to want to wait around for hours or even too many minutes and expect people other than star trek fans not to be a little irritated. So for gameplay purposes I think there has to be a blend of the two ideas large areas for those who want to explore and quickly accessable areas for those who don't want to spend the time. And the easter egg thing would be awesome thats what star trek is all about "The Unknown."

[Flatfingers]

My first reaction is also "I'd like an enormous galaxy, please," but let's stop for a moment and ask: why?

What is it that we think a huge game universe is going to give us? Is there some other way of providing what we fundamentally want that doesn't require an enormous, procedurally generated universe? (Not that there's anything wrong with that, as folks who know about Infinity: The Quest for Earth (http://www.infinity-universe.com/Infinity/) have pointed out.)

What I really want is to be the first player to discover strange new worlds and civilizations, even if I start playing a year after Star Trek Online launches. I want to be presented with gameplay challenges that haven't already been processed by 10,000 people before me and whose solutions haven't long since been documented on a wiki somewhere. I want to distinguish myself by using the skills, tools, and resources available to my character -- as well as my own perception and creativity as a player -- to come up with the best solutions to novel situations in the mold of the heroes of Star Trek. And I want my clever successes to be recognized by the faction (apparently either Starfleet or Klingon Empire) of the character I'm playing, and to provide tangible and long-term benefits to that faction.

One way to do that is to have a game universe so massive -- as with Infinity -- that even though it's finite, and the game has hundreds of thousands of subscribers, there are so vastly many worlds that thousands of players will need many real-time years to visit all the worlds even once. With procedural generation, I believe that's possible, but we shouldn't let the obvious blind us to other possibilities.

What about instancing?

Others have already suggested that in this thread, but maybe it's not getting the attention it deserves. Let's consider how it might work.

You'd be assigned to a mission to patrol or explore or solve a specific problem in some randomly made-up sector name: the G'nedtra Expanse, or what-have-you. You'd warp to that general area in the common galaxy, then click to enter the target sector. Once you accepted the mission, the elements of the target area began to be generated, from the stars and worlds and particles and energy fields and lifeforms to the relatively unique challenge created for you, and they're ready for you when you get there. And you're the only one who can even see that sector to enter it, so there's no camping or mission stealing. Whether you succeed or not is entirely up to you. (Note: This approach would work equally well for multi-player personal ships and groups of ships.)

The pros of this approach are:


no need to pre-generate a massive universe
unique challenges for every player through the lifespan of the game

But there are cons, too:


the sector you just mapped for Starfleet blinks out of existence when you leave it? say what??
doing randomly-generated instances feels grind-y
ephemeral results do nothing to contribute to realm vs. realm-style play where what you do matters

So it seems that instancing also isn't a perfect solution to wanting to be able to contribute uniquely to one's faction in Star Trek Online. In particular, instancing destroys any possibility of permanently mapping and surveying the galaxy as a gameplay feature.

Which leave us here: Can the notion of instancing-for-unique-content be tweaked so that the problems are addressed without losing the benefits? Or for all its own downsides, does procedurally generation a billion-world galaxy look better now?

Or is there yet another approach worth considering?

--Flatfingers

[ssra]

People are not going to play for long, if they just fly around mapping uninhabited planets and spacial anomolies. This game is not going to be a sim, no matter how badly some may want it to be.

Ok so we all take our torpedoes and phasers and we blow eachother up until the servers crash or the company goes bankrupt. Is that fun enough?

I personaly liked exploration more than combat and i don't need it to be a sim either, but exploring and mapping doesen't make it a sim.

The galaxy will probably be rather small at first, but it wil hopefully get larger as the game progresses and the players grow and in the end let's hope we will have all the quadrants. There is whoever no point in releasing a huge-gigantic galaxy from the start since no one is going to be able to explore it.

[ngille]

Balance the two, duh.

You can have combat AND exploration and you have an even better game. You both have excellent ideas just combine the two (and hope cryptic does as well)

[Roberto]

One world: Enormous.

Seriously though, it has to be massive. In order to mimic the environment in even the smallest way, it will have to be large enough for all kinds of roaming.

You're going to need to explore.

Room to fight in.

Room to patrol.

Room for rouge players to have a safe place of operations.

And then everything in between. And thats just off the top of my head. With warp travel, getting sector to sector shouldn't be time consuming - but having the breathing room to look around it once there should be very detailed and borderline perpetual.

[Dext]

I want ti so big that even after playing for 5 years, i've only seen a small fraction of it. :)

I am with you on this

[ob1klone]

Ok so we all take our torpedoes and phasers and we blow eachother up until the servers crash or the company goes bankrupt. Is that fun enough?

I personaly liked exploration more than combat and i don't need it to be a sim either, but exploring and mapping doesen't make it a sim.

The galaxy will probably be rather small at first, but it wil hopefully get larger as the game progresses and the players grow and in the end let's hope we will have all the quadrants. There is whoever no point in releasing a huge-gigantic galaxy from the start since no one is going to be able to explore it.

Don't read into what I am saying in that post. My point was simply, the game needs to have content and a lot of it. If it hopes to hold peoples attention for longer that the free month. I will be doing more roleplaying than anything else in this game. Though I will be going PVE for stat gain of course. I will not likely be going PVP unless it makes sence. I am not trying to say everyone has to blow stuff up to have a good time. But flying around doing much of nothing will not be favorable to most.

[Squirrel]

Yes, i do want the galaxy to be huge, but one thing i love about other MMORPGs is that when you are down on a planet, you can meet other people. When you are on a mission to do something, then you can see other Federation Ships pass you.

I really dont care if people CAN mission camp, because the chances are that the galaxy will be so big that you wont have a problem with that, and why would anyone want to Mission Camp on this game. Its not like you are gonna have to kill this boss or whatever.

I think alot of what you said FlatFingers is pretty damn good. But i didnt like Guild Wars because its all Instanced and i would hate to see this game instanced. It would put me off playing it altogether, it will just be another drawback.

[ssra]

I really dont care if people CAN mission camp, because the chances are that the galaxy will be so big that you wont have a problem with that, and why would anyone want to Mission Camp on this game. Its not like you are gonna have to kill this boss or whatever.

I wouldn't be surprised if we will eventualy come across camps. Rogue camps or merc camps, but camps nevertheless. And i actualy hope there will be camps because i don't want a galaxy where it's safe everywhere. There would be no thrill :)

[mintor426]

I want ti so big that even after playing for 5 years, i've only seen a small fraction of it. :)

i agree look how long it took star trek voyager , 70 years at max warp get from delta to alpha.
thats a huge area.

[Dustnite]

i agree look how long it took star trek voyager , 70 years at max warp get from delta to alpha.
thats a huge area.

The Milky Way is even bigger than what you see in the show. I'm still not sure how they are going to relate size to this game.

It's going to depend a lot on how the engine will work with it and where the content focus will be.

[Crazyfist]

Indeed it will, i think they could just start with a averagely sized area of space with lots of detail so it doesnt get old, and every update bring in more and more systems and space.

[third_fhs]

The Galaxy's map should not be randomized; all parts should be carefully constructed in a unique 3 dimensional way. It should be as big as it could get that nobody can cross it even through maximum warp. Although it takes time to create that, the game’s quality shouldn’t be sacrificed for system compatibility. I believe this game will be Great!

[Dustnite]

Well, last time I checked the Cryptic2 engine doesn't support procedural code. I wouldn't like to see it anyway for a game like this, it just ends up reusing tilesets over and over again. I hope to see hand-crafted planets, etc. as shown in the screenshots.

[Markham_Karis]

I want ti so big that even after playing for 5 years, i've only seen a small fraction of it. :)

This would be a nice start!

In truth, to have the galaxy map to be quite massive to seem that there would be rarely encounters with other Starfleet vessels (player-run ships and / or NPC ships) would be nice! I think at least one entire quadrant of the Federation should be represented and mapped to-scale (ok zoning between planetary systems would be acceptable). But also you could have the option to respond to a distress call in deep-space (pop up during zoning from your Tactical Officer that a distress call has been received) and penalties for not responding to the distress call!

And not to mention add Klingon space to that from launch! Wow the possibilities for exploration and missions are endless!

:)

[bitgolem]

I think the idea of having a galactic FOW with planets charted by players is freakin' cool... Start out in Sector 001 and make it so anyone in your faction can clear the map for you. Info gained from treaties with other races could uncover their known space as well... That would make the early game REALLY exciting... Logging in each day to see what had been uncovered...

[arakkis]

SInce exploration is the MAIN theme in many of the series, encountering alien NPCs should be a MAIN part of the game. The galaxy will have to be large enough that you can go to an unpopulated system (at least unpopulated by PCs) and explore several times a play session for at least a year and never run out of new places to explore. That is not to say you won't encounter other PCs exploring, but the uncharted fringes of the galaxy should be large enough that we can truly feel like we are going where no one has gone before.

[Grig]

Well still playing swg 4yrs now i want it big.. and with the ITV you have it dont take decades to travel no more. But for star trek i want that in the beginning to keep my interest up so ill stick around to see more of the planet.

[Reinkaos]

It would be excellent if players could discover space, which gets "revelead" on everyone's map in their respective faction.

[Trekkie]

I don't have a specific answer to this question, but I think space needs to be large enough so that exploring it doesn't get too repetitive too quickly, but it should be at least somewhat manageable so that players don't get too overwhelmed. I think the size of space is one of the more important issues facing Cryptic in developing Star Trek Online, but the good part of it is that even if space isn't exactly vast upon the game's launch, it can be expanded upon as time passes.

[StraboV2]

I think EVE online did space very realistically, I especially like the fact that everything was to scale according to distance...and that I've been playing for years and have seen only a fraction :P Hopefully Cryptic takes a page from CCP on that.

[embers_of_satin]

I definitely think the galaxy should be at least as big as EVE's, and I think that there should be unexplored areas that can be "discovered" that contain new planets and species. Make it large, and maybe make certain obstacles random, so that when you enter a system there could be a derelict ship, or pirate base, etc. that you can encounter.

[Capt._D]

How big should the GALAXY be? You mean the WHOLE galaxy. I fear that, with respect to canon the WHOLE galaxy shouldn’t be included in this game. I think all the major planets should be in-game, places in both the Alpha and Beta quadrants. Earth, Andor, Vulcan, Teller, Bajor, Qro’nos, Romulas and the other big players with other more miner worlds but not the WHOLE galaxy. Of course you need the uncharted places to explore, I’m not sure by what to measure the STO universes size to but it should be BIG.

[Squirrel]

I agree with you in the sense that it shouldnt be that big... i mean, i dont think we need the whole universe with all the planets that were ever stepped on, seen, talked about or even imagined from the Star Trek Series. There should be a bunch of undiscovered planets, many more then there are "known" ones (e.g. Bajor, Earth, Romulas etc.), but if theres too many, it gets out of hand. What are the chances that you will ever need to go out into the deep reaches of space to an unknown planet away from everyone else, other then to do a "mission". I dont think we need it too huge. Just so it does take you 6 months to discover it all.

[Ransom]

I fully do not understand how big is too big. I mean I want this game to be about exploration, conflict resolution/fighting and crew interactions with some loot thrown in for fun.

Just as many PVP/PVE battles that can arise is how big I would like the galaxy to be. And it would ba an added bonus if they open up areas now and then that have never been explored.

So yes BIG really, really big.

[Jaxston]

I think as large as possible to begin with....maybe 100 planets over say a universe 25 quadrants by 25 quadrants, plus moons for each planet. Then they could add 10 quadrant X 10 quadrant sections of space at a time with expansions....they could do this for ever which would lead to an enourmous universe.

To give some idea for size of a quadrant .... maybe a ship at maximum warp would take 5 minutes to get to the other side.....so in essence it would take a little over 2 hours to cross the known universe at launch. I would also add worm holes to the game to allow jumping to different quadrants to cut down on travel time if you chose to do so. Some people would like the idea of an hour long warp journey...having their guild do things around the ship to prep for the battle that may be pending the end of their journey.

[Squirrel]

100 planets sounds good actually. Not too many, but enough to keep you occupied while you roam the galaxy. One thing i certainly dont want is a default or preset terrain generated planets. So, when you come across a barren planet, you see one set of hills then you go to another Barren Planet 4 days later and you see the same set of hills that are there, with the same features and all. I want every planet to be individual in its design. Unique from other planets.

But yeah, 100 planets, not too many and then expanding on that later is good.

[Jaxston]

Agreed Squirrel, each should have there own terrain....how many undiscovered civilizations should there be....should half the planets be enhabited by unknown races and half with maybe on a few types of animal like indigenous species but lots of open space to set up mining operations for example?

:D

[Arcturus]

Um... It's the Milky way, it's about 100,000 Light years across, and 1,000 light years thick. I am not Joking with you I want the Galaxy to be just what it is. How fast can we travel? Different question completely.

[Squirrel]

Well, hows about like a Pokedex lol... to keep track of all these different species you might come across :P

[Boone]

I never thought the SWG planets were to big (played SWG until the NGE came out).

The problem with SWG was there were not enough systems/planets. In a game about space opera on the scale of Star Trek or Star Wars you just can't do it with 10 planets and 10 space sectors.

The Milky Way Galaxy (The setting for Star Trek) has between 200 and 400 billion stars. Assuming an even distribution over the four quadrants that's between 50 billion and 100 billion stars. Obviously the game cannot have that many because it wouldn't be practical.

I think 100 star systems would be practical for launch. That's enough variety that someone could play for years without really fully seeing everything. Star Trek's basic theme is one of exploration, so that would tie in nicely. New star systems would be added with expansions keeping the limits always rising.

(EVE has 5000+ star systems, but with landing parties and such we can do with fewer because ours will be more detailed and will have more opportunities than EVEs)

I hope the developers will actually use a real map of the Milky Way Galaxy :), it would be nice to see it, plus we do know where several major worlds are. Vulcan (40 Eridani), Andor (Epsilon Indi), Tellar (61 Cygni), etc

[thord00d]

I want ti so big that even after playing for 5 years, i've only seen a small fraction of it. :)

I think that's a bit ridiculous right off the bat, but I think a good starting point would be fairly large portions of the Alpha and Beta quadrants and maybe a small portion of the Gamma quadrant by the wormhole leading to DS9.

However, I think that (thorough patches) Cryptic could vastly expand the galaxy even into the Delta Quadrant, making the galaxy so huge that it could eventually take new players a very long time (maybe not 5 years, but a VERY long time) to complete the game made thus far.

[Acidrain]

Iam presuming that the world will grow as the game goes along, we could get expansions packs that will give us more area to explore. I think it is safe to say that we will have Alpha Quadrant at first and perhaps 6months down the road we could receive add ons or updates, i think it is safe to say and being realistic though i want to see all the quadrants.

[Catmaykate]

The good thing about Space games is that they can be made huge due to there format, meaning they can make large areas with out having huge server load due to the fact that there isn't many objects to load such as trees, lakes, houses, buildings, grass, mountains and many other things with out these in space they are able to crate large areas (not inc plants, rocks, suns etc etc this stuff wont even make a server fart), this also makes it less stressful for large PVP battles in space because you don't have to render so much.

I hope that they make huge space areas with random events that you can come across like distress calls rouge ships, abandoned ships and many many other things all of which can be randomly spawned in dead space so that feel of loneliness is some what reduced and thus has a greater purpose.


Having a large space game adds to endless playability, and from reading some comments i agree that it should be so large that you can play it for 3mths + and still come across new things, it really needs to stay true to the star trek world. The boys at Cryptic have a chance to make something truly great here


Good luck

[Flatfingers]

One of the things I'm a little surprised hasn't been discussed much yet in this thread is the need to balance exploration with being able to find other players.

Many of us seem interested in having lots of opportunities to explore strange new worlds that thousands of other players haven't already visited thousands of times. Even the hardcore MMORPG players don't seem to mind this feature in principle.

At the same time, there's also a real need to design the physical aspect of the gameworld such that players can easily find others to play with. It's obvious that this is important for the core MMORPG players, who'll want to put together pickup groups, buy and sell items, show off for their friends, and help out new players.

But this is also important for the "world-y" types who are hoping that Star Trek Online feels like a real place (or at least as much of a real place as a gameworld based on Star Trek can feel like!). How plausible will the San Francisco of A.D. 2501 feel like if it's not filled with humans and aliens engaged in all kinds of business and pleasure activities, if the skies aren't filled with shuttlecraft, if local space isn't teeming with starships warping in from and out to the strange worlds of the galaxy?

Star Trek Online needs both frontiers (http://xroads.virginia.edu/~Hyper/TURNER/) and watering holes. IMO it needs to be designed so that there are always places that anyone can go where no one has gone before, and places anyone can go where they can be sure of rubbing elbows -- or tentacles, or photonic energy -- with other players.

So what are some practical suggestions for how Cryptic can enable both of these gameplay opportunities in their design for Star Trek Online?

--Flatfingers