Ground Combat

[Deletham_Tomalak]

I hope this hasn't been brought up and if so I apologize.

What should we be expecting in terms of ground combat? A WoW type system with rolls, auto shoot, spell casting, and third person perspective with no targeting or aiming required of the player or will we be presented with a more player controlled experience similar to Mass Effect?

Will there be melee functionality (Bat'leths anyone?) or strictly phaser/disruptor fighting?

[Ziana]

Given that ST is largely phaser-centric, I don't think we'll see "tanking". We will probably have different class/career/skill lines that specialize in combat and offer special abilities: phaser pistols, rifles, bat'leths, grenades, etc.

There will probably be skills for support class/career/skill-lines to use in combat, such as medics healing, or science & engineering officers adding buffs of some kind. Alternately, they may have access to certain tactical info: minimap radar, see cloaked people, etc.

But largely I expect a non-twitch, target & attack MMO combat system. FPS style would be ok, but that can be more server intensive I believe, and MMO players often aren't the same as twitch-style game players.

[Djin]

Things might go FPS almost... it is going to be on consoles too.

But I wouldn't mind seeing a 3rd perosn view, having personal clokes and shields, able to melee, etc.

That would be awesome.

[Will_Lucky]

I expect to see Batleths, or else I will be angry.

[Ahkileez]

I never played Tabula Rasa, and I heard the game itself wasn't so hot - but their combat system looked very interesting. Maybe something like that would be a good way to go to avoid the 'standup and throw spells' format usualy used.

[Cyclone_Jack]

What should we be expecting in terms of ground combat?

I think a good mesh between Tabulua Rasa and Mass Effect. 'Realtime combat' that uses a little bit of sticky targeting for those that aren't up to fast twitch-based combat as well the use of a cover system. You can still use the dice rolls during combat to see if you hit or miss, which keeps it character's skill based and not player's skill based. For melee, my dream would be to mimic Jedi Outcast (best 3rd person melee combat ever), but I don't see that happening. And yes, you must have melee or the Klingons will cry.

[Dext]

I would think it would be more like an FPS an not wow like just becuse if they did it like wow it would not be trek at all

[Commander_Daedelus]

I'd prefer to see combat in real time and not roll based etc, if someone fires a phaser in my direction i want to be able to take cover and avoid it not have it chase me around the corner of a wall

[PhantomPhoton]

If there will be Klingons there sure better be melee.
I hope for real time combat, though I'm not really wanting an FPS with people jumping around like grasshoppers and "boom headshot!" being spammed in chat.

[0wl]

Real time combat like a boarding or an away mission gone sour in an FPS style would not be such a bad idear, 3rd or 1st person i would not really mind as long as its tactical and really well thought out!

And please no jumping around for that is completely over the top and cheating in my opinion!

[MillerEP]

Something similar to the Battlefield/Tabula Rasa games would be neat and not require a large amount of thought. Pick 1 away party speciality, whether it be hand-to-hand, support, rifleman, or long range, and level it up along side with everything else.

[Dext]

I do think that the ground fighting should be more about evading being hit like in the show but have some people an/or class that can have armor that can take 5 to 10 hit be for they fall but if they have no armor at all 1 to 2 hits.

[Faith]

I wouldn't mind ground combat if it was like Mass Effect's combat. As long as it isn't everyone running around jumping up and down like most FPS games.

[Eagler]

I believe the way combat is handled in Mass Effect and the upcoming fallout 3 looks like a reasonably good system. Realtime, FPS or thirdperson style. You would aim at the target, and your skills would effect how closely you have to aim to get a hit. On the other hand, no matter what your skills are, you shouldn't be able to shoot around a corner.

As for the jumping... Don't take that ability away from people. Using Stamina seems to be a rather good way of limiting it, though.

[Falin]

I never played Tabula Rasa, and I heard the game itself wasn't so hot - but their combat system looked very interesting. Maybe something like that would be a good way to go to avoid the 'standup and throw spells' format usualy used.

there combat system sucked, it was mouse locked and very frustrating.

[FaeryFire]

One phaser hit and ZAP!, turned into cinder.
Oh well, time to recruit Red Shirt NPCs...

[USS_Parallax]

I want skill based, probably aiming based, combat. Quick battles, no tanks. If you shoot someone in the face they should go down.

[Narayan]

In the series everyone could use a phaser rifle just about that was starfleet so I think that limiting weapons might not be an option, but specials, or perhaps some modifications to the weapon could be limited. I think fps would draw more people to the game, but dice rolls better represents your characters abilities as hes leveling.

[Deletham_Tomalak]

Jumping would be a mixed issue....Rarely do we see "jumping" in Trek...more like dives and rolls...some type of dodge element would be needed if it were the Mass Effect esque system that was sticky third person/first person. Meaning that the number row would be bound to abilities and such?

What would abilities be then?

[Signal]

This is where my close following on the development of Champions Online might actually come in handy. Champions Online, for those who don't know, is also being developed by Cryptic at the same time they develop Star Trek Online. Even though they are being developed by two entirely different teams, I would imagine they are pooling resources every so often whenever there are similiarites between the two games.

Like ground combat, for instance.

So, for those of you who aren't reading the Champions Online (http://www.champions-online.com/) forums, let me share with you what I know (even though it could have absolutely no bearing on Star Trek Online whatsoever):

Combat in Champions is supposed to be more action-oriented than most other MMORPGs, but not so much that it's completely "twitch" oriented. Jack Emmert (Jackalope), chief creative guy of Cryptic, has gone on record as saying his reflexes aren't very good, and thus he's made sure that even a guy like him can do well in Champions Online. The same might go for Star Trek Online.

All the videos released of Champions Online take place in the third person.

You will be able to manually dodge attacks in Champions if you are so inclined.

Melee combat in Champions is just as viable as ranged combat.

Combat is developed for being highly playable with a XBOX 360 controller in mind, as well as a mouse and keyboard.

Commence the further speculation. :D

[Apolladan]

I'm expecting a more skill-centric EF2 style gameplay with medical officers as "healers" and engineers that are present in order to blow up certain areas, unlock doors, and take control of the ships computer.

[JSM3050]

Maybe I'm just a dirty fighter but expect to see me using orbital bombardment a lot of the time, especially if what happens in space effects the ground.

[Yavin_Prime]

So I've seen a lot of topics about space combat and space in general... but my big question is how will ground combat work (this includes boarding a spacestation or enemy ship).

Honesly I was watching Stargate Worlds combat system and though very highly of it, I also currently play Tabula Rasa and find the combat system dosn't often get boring. What I personaly would like to see is a system that dosn't have an auto attack and realy takes the skill of the player. Also as we've noted in many a Trek movie or show cover plays a real role in combat, so standing out in an open feild taking hits just dosn't work in my opinion (yes sadly Tabula Rasa has that but they do get away with it by having a personal sheild system).

I remember beta testing Pirates of the Burning Sea (PotBS) and honestly I enjoyed the ship battles, but when it came to leaving my ship I hated the ground stuff. It seriously had potential if they'd put work into it but in the end it realy felt like an after thought. In my opinion Cryptic has a head start as the other games they've released or plan to release are all pure ground games, so with that said I realy hope to see them go to work on the ground system in STO.

[Raven0238]

You know, its actually funny and I don't know who else missed it, but the guy who got sucked into space in ST: Nemesis was a red shirt.

[Falin]

yea i'm suspecting an improved EQ2/WoW system, where you have to target, hit space/cntl/f1 whatever to fire your phaser. probably the F1-10 route so you can use tricorders, hand weapons, medical hyposprays ect.

[Akido37]

yea i'm suspecting an improved EQ2/WoW system, where you have to target, hit space/cntl/f1 whatever to fire your phaser. probably the F1-10 route so you can use tricorders, hand weapons, medical hyposprays ect.

No Federation hand-to-hand weapons, though. They seem to use phasers pretty exclusively. Klingons have both ranged and melee weapons.

Since the shows really don't focus on too much combat (except the Siege at AR 558 on DS9), this is a pretty gray area.

[eycel]

ground combat, iv thought alot about it! There has to be one!

[Deletham_Tomalak]

I don't think we'd see Space Bombardment Im going to take a guess that moving from ship to planet and vice verse is similar to a WoW instance where it loads and such though I could be wrong. Would be interesting to see if there if its a truly first person experience

[Djin]

I don't think we'd see Space Bombardment Im going to take a guess that moving from ship to planet and vice verse is similar to a WoW instance where it loads and such though I could be wrong. Would be interesting to see if there if its a truly first person experience

Know how many "old timers" would have issues against the twitch style of the younger generations. I don't think it will go this way.

Stick FPS in a MMORPG = fail.

[Golic]

So I've seen a lot of topics about space combat and space in general... but my big question is how will ground combat work (this includes boarding a spacestation or enemy ship).

Honesly I was watching Stargate Worlds combat system and though very highly of it, I also currently play Tabula Rasa and find the combat system dosn't often get boring. What I personaly would like to see is a system that dosn't have an auto attack and realy takes the skill of the player. Also as we've noted in many a Trek movie or show cover plays a real role in combat, so standing out in an open feild taking hits just dosn't work in my opinion (yes sadly Tabula Rasa has that but they do get away with it by having a personal sheild system).

I remember beta testing Pirates of the Burning Sea (PotBS) and honestly I enjoyed the ship battles, but when it came to leaving my ship I hated the ground stuff. It seriously had potential if they'd put work into it but in the end it realy felt like an after thought. In my opinion Cryptic has a head start as the other games they've released or plan to release are all pure ground games, so with that said I realy hope to see them go to work on the ground system in STO.



Please Cryptic do NOT go down the non auto attack path.
It sounds great in theory but if it will be anything like Age Of Conan it just wont work.
Why on earth would my target stand still for 5-10 seconds while I enter the combination for a combo (which was quite a long process) and then just sit there grinning while it goes off?
Age of Conan would be an example of how NOT to model your combat system.

[Djin]

So I've seen a lot of topics about space combat and space in general... but my big question is how will ground combat work (this includes boarding a spacestation or enemy ship).

Honesly I was watching Stargate Worlds combat system and though very highly of it, I also currently play Tabula Rasa and find the combat system dosn't often get boring. What I personaly would like to see is a system that dosn't have an auto attack and realy takes the skill of the player. Also as we've noted in many a Trek movie or show cover plays a real role in combat, so standing out in an open feild taking hits just dosn't work in my opinion (yes sadly Tabula Rasa has that but they do get away with it by having a personal sheild system).

I remember beta testing Pirates of the Burning Sea (PotBS) and honestly I enjoyed the ship battles, but when it came to leaving my ship I hated the ground stuff. It seriously had potential if they'd put work into it but in the end it realy felt like an after thought. In my opinion Cryptic has a head start as the other games they've released or plan to release are all pure ground games, so with that said I realy hope to see them go to work on the ground system in STO.

Pirates of the Burning Sea put me to sleep.

We have to remember that this is Star Trek, and not pirates. There are phasers, shields, cloaks, etc.

[connobi]

I think it'd be sweet if this played like mass Effect.

[Nooblet]

I expect to see Batleths, or else I will be angry.

No bat'leths make for angry klingons, and no one likes angry klingons:D

[Nytok]

It would be nice if it could play like Mass Effect, but that took a ton of work for bioware's programmers. With the ship combat and other parts, the game would take even longer to come out. Might be a good thing though, or shut them down like Perpetual.

[Djin]

We're about to find out in 8 days how it plays.

[ddgrfn11]

i very much hope its 3rd person as i always want to see my character...not just his hands or his weapon....thats why i never played Elite Force....i tried it for 5 mins and hated it. Maybe if you can toggle between 1st and 3rd it may not be so bad.

[Jaedon_Rivers]

The tank/healer/dps route is kinda "possible" in Star Trek terms, and through the power of wild guessing, could have been what the previous developers ended up aiming for with the Engineer/Medic/Security roles - though I don't really believe they were aiming for that, nor that Cryptic will, as it's just silly on way too many levels.

Stargate Worlds' combat kind of disappointed me a little. The first video of it looked alright - lots of moving around cover and so on - but the second video was pretty disappointing, mainly due to how they presented it. Having a guy new to the game show it off is always a bit iffy, but standing behind something auto-attacking all day long looked pretty boring, and there didn't seem to be anything special happening beyond the standard shooting. It could work out just fine to play it of course, but we're not there yet.

But the reason I didn't like what I saw from it wasn't that it used auto-attacking, it's that it seems to lack flourishes, so far at least. This is bad for an opponents point of view (you being shot at by something else) rather than just a spectator's POV, but even so, there are many shooting games which manage to make fights look more interesting quite easily for both the person shooting and the one being shot at. The Matrix Online, Star Wars Galaxies and City of Villains (I tried it briefly, played around with a pulse rifle and my gun-toting robot minion) all managed to make your shooting style look different when you used certain special abilities, from crazy-rambo-spraying to carefully aimed shots, different enough so that another player could see it was happening, and keeping it interesting for the one doing the shooting. Even stuff towards the more standard shooter - Mass Effect, KOTOR, and even as far back as Unreal and Quake 3 - let you easily see when different weapons are in use, whether special firing modes are being used, and if there are any modifications on any of the weapons before they hit you (though in the case of most twitch-games, the time between when you see the effect and when you get hit by it can be pretty short).

It'd be nice to see some of the methodology being used on Champions used in STO though - flourishes that help the player react. In most shooters, when you get hit by something you usually wont die instantly and you'll be able to work out how best to react to survive, but in MMOs that doesn't seem to be the case and when you get hit first there's very little you can do to minimise the advantage the opponent has over you - giving the player ways to react would be nice, imo. How the player's allowed to react is going to be the pinch though - it's useless letting the player know that in a few seconds they'll be hit with a high-power phaser shot, as evidenced by something like a long charge glow on the phaser, if by that point they've already been pinned in place by some sort of stunning effect and they're helpless. (though it does throw up the question of what the stun setting on phasers is going to do)

The other problem is how to make flourishes not look silly, but I reckon cover, dodging, charged shots, rapid shots, blocks (personal shields?), and knockbacks (and there are probably a load of other things that I can't think of off the top of my head) are all doable without them looking out of place. It'd just be nice to see them implemented in a meaningful way, which can likely be done whether or not auto-attacking is in use. And in the case of a game using the auto-attack system (which STO will likely use), it makes fights far more involving and "player controlled" if there's more variety of actions in a fight.

[Adonisaleus]

I expect to see Batleths, or else I will be angry.

i agree.
Killing an klingon with his buddies Bat'leth - now thats either crazy skill or great luck

[Deletham_Tomalak]

Hopefully though there wont be jumping...too much jumping can kill a game...

Combat should be fairly tactical though while still keeping a fast pace. These are phasers and disruptors after all, weapons that can disintegrate a target with one shot. Auto firing would ruin the experience because all you have to do is just fire off a high powered shot and hope your stats are good enough for the hit. It needs to be free targeting and moving combat so that players have the ability to dodge and control their fire. Movement should be somewhat slowed though....

[Frederikkay]

Hopefully though there wont be jumping...too much jumping can kill a game...

Combat should be fairly tactical though while still keeping a fast pace. These are phasers and disruptors after all, weapons that can disintegrate a target with one shot. Auto firing would ruin the experience because all you have to do is just fire off a high powered shot and hope your stats are good enough for the hit. It needs to be free targeting and moving combat so that players have the ability to dodge and control their fire. Movement should be somewhat slowed though....

Ok, One rule about games in general, Always include jumping. I hate being blocked by a wall half a meter high etc. If you do not include standered jumping you have to program area based jumping, (like for jumping over ledges and stuff) but this is much more difficult in an MMO. A simple limitation to the amount of jumps, like stamina costs (already mentioned i believe) should solve bunnyhopping, but never ever remove jumping.

[Deletham_Tomalak]

I can live with that. I mention it because in many games where jumping is included without penalty it is abused...(WoW Night Elves they all do it...I do it...its cause of the back flip).