Ship Balance. What's more powerful?

[USS_Parallax]

Previous Star Trek games have left me saying "What?" to Ship balance. Obviously the show doesn't help much since it does crazy stuff like show the Defiant rip through a few dozen Cardassian and Dominion ships while making me doubt the manliness of the Galaxy-class ships.

Defiant vs Galaxy:
Most games have the Defiant as a sort of powerful, agile scoutish type ship with little armor or shields which seems to go against the show. However I'd be pretty annoyed if the Defiant could easily destroy a Galaxy ship. In my mind a Galaxy-class ship could probably take out a Defiant-class ship but would take pretty decent damage from the battle. However I've talked to people who swear on their mom's grave that a Defiant would eat up a Galaxy based on what the show shows (which is an OP'd Defiant and the Enterprise getting almost owned several times by single captial ships).

Intrepid vs Galaxy:
Another issue. I like to think of the Intrepid as significantly weaker than a Galaxy-class ship. Again, some trekkers demand that the Intrepid-class is almost equal if not stronger. This is a crazy IMO. It's faster and more mobile and that's about it.

Ship balance! I hope it is good and makes sense. :P

[Roka]

My shuttle will tear them all up..... "RAWWWWWRR!!!!"

[InterArmaEnimSilentLeges]

The Defiant was created as a response to the Borg threat thus being a warship. The Galaxy class starships are ships of exploration. The Defiant class should have no problems ripping through a Galaxy class starship. Now a Defiant class vs. Soveriegn class....that's a battle I would love to see.

[Wonko]

Sheer size would allow a Galaxy to survive against either a Defiant or Intrepid, I'd think. A Defiant, with quantum torpedoes and all, would probably be capable of more damage than an Intrepid, but I'd wager a Galaxy could handle both of them.

[InterArmaEnimSilentLeges]

My shuttle will tear them all up..... "RAWWWWWRR!!!!"

LOL! Now that will be the day....oh, but then again a Bird of Prey took out the Enterprise D so I guess anything is possible.

[FaeryFire]

The fact ships in the shows are not always consistent in their capacities doesn't help.
I think we can see the Defiant sometimes use front phasers, sometimes pulse phasers. Even its size on screen relative to other ships isn't consistent.

[InterArmaEnimSilentLeges]

Sheer size would allow a Galaxy to survive against either a Defiant or Intrepid, I'd think. A Defiant, with quantum torpedoes and all, would probably be capable of more damage than an Intrepid, but I'd wager a Galaxy could handle both of them.

Anyone see Generations? I mean the Enterprise should have opened up with everything they had on that Bird of Prey. They chose to run. The Bird of Prey was outdated. Granted it would have done serious damage to the Enterprise, but I think the Enterprise would have surprised the hell out of the Klingons had they turned and faced them. It might have bought them precious seconds to unleash hell on the Klingons. The Enterprise should have made short work of the Klingons.

[USS_Parallax]

I think a Defiant-class ship could take on anything but the biggest few Federation ships like Galaxy, Sovereign, possibly Nebula but Nebula's power level has been widely disputed.

Nebula.. how powerful is it?
It's got a Phaser Array that looks to be near equal if not equal to a Galaxy-class ship. It's arguably more massive. Probably less maneuverable.

I'd almost say it's the 3rd or 4th most powerful Federation ship despite it's age and was probably for a few years before the Galaxy-class came out the most powerful Federation ship.

[solutionine@gmail.com]

Sheer size would allow a Galaxy to survive against either a Defiant or Intrepid, I'd think. A Defiant, with quantum torpedoes and all, would probably be capable of more damage than an Intrepid, but I'd wager a Galaxy could handle both of them.

Dude... the Delta Flyer could eat up a Galaxy Class Starship.

[Wonko]

Anyone see Generations? I mean the Enterprise should have opened up with everything they had on that Bird of Prey. They chose to run. The Bird of Prey was outdated. Granted it would have done serious damage to the Enterprise, but I think the Enterprise would have surprised the hell out of the Klingons had they turned and faced them. It might have bought them precious seconds to unleash hell on the Klingons. The Enterprise should have made short work of the Klingons.

The BoP also had the Enterprise's shield frequencies and was freely firing torpedoes at its warp core. If the Federation ship's shields and warp reactor not been compromised, I'm sure they would have.

[Raven0238]

It should really come down to tactics, albiet for some ships it should be harder to inflict damage on some versus others, but, none the less, possible. Example, a Runabout could out manuever a Galaxy Class vessel with no problem, not to mention, every phaser shot should not hit, some should infact miss based on movement (this has been mentioned in many episodes), I should maybe not be able to destroy a Galaxy Class with a runabout, but hit is pretty hard, or disable some systems, yes.

[USS_Parallax]

I hope flying and actually dodging shots determines if you're hit or not instead of a chance roll like in 99% of other MMOs. Meaning I want to actively dodge shots and probably aim shots too. Though it would be hard to target specific systems on an enemy ship manually so auto-shoot should be an option too (probably less powerful).

[RedShirt]

I think a Defiant-class ship could take on anything but the biggest few Federation ships like Galaxy, Sovereign, possibly Nebula but Nebula's power level has been widely disputed.

Nebula.. how powerful is it?
It's got a Phaser Array that looks to be near equal if not equal to a Galaxy-class ship. It's arguably more massive. Probably less maneuverable.

I'd almost say it's the 3rd or 4th most powerful Federation ship despite it's age and was probably for a few years before the Galaxy-class came out the most powerful Federation ship.

I beleive there are a fair few variants of the nebula, some with the same sized saucer as the galaxy, others with a smaller saucer. Remember the Nebula is science ship by nature, its fittings would be mainly low powered and for defence. It's shields would be more suited for handling extreme temperatures, erratic discharges from nebulas etc, not weapons fire. Most of the Nebulas power will be going to sensors/other science equipment.

I have seen variants of nebulas with the sensor pod replaced with a weapons pod.

[IanD967]

i cans ee targeting specific systems being apart of the combat for like trying to stop a smuggler from getting away so you need to disrupt his engines by a few blasts :)

[InterArmaEnimSilentLeges]

The BoP also had the Enterprise's shield frequencies and was freely firing torpedoes at its warp core. If the Federation ship's shields and warp reactor not been compromised, I'm sure they would have.

Even so the Enterprise should still have been able to destroy the BoP rather quickly. What if the Data's pulse had not triggered the cloaking device? Should the have continued to run and lose all hands or turn and fight? Take out the BoP quickly. In other words take damage to avoid damage.

[IanD967]

I beleive there are a fair few variants of the nebula, some with the same sized saucer as the galaxy, others with a smaller saucer. Remember the Nebula is science ship by nature, its fittings would be mainly low powered and for defence. It's shields would be more suited for handling extreme temperatures, erratic discharges from nebulas etc, not weapons fire. Most of the Nebulas power will be going to sensors/other science equipment.

I have seen variants of nebulas with the sensor pod replaced with a weapons pod.

actually the Nebula can be easily configured for a multiple of reasons.

the circular pod is advanced sensors and sceintific stations
the Triangular and more common pod has a significant increase in offensive carrying a fair few phasers and torpedoe tubes :)
there is also a pod that is a giant hospital to help with evactuation and colonists

[Wonko]

Even so the Enterprise should still have been able to destroy the BoP rather quickly. What if the Data's pulse had not triggered the cloaking device? Should the have continued to run and lose all hands or turn and fight? Take out the BoP quickly. In other words take damage to avoid damage.
Well, they did take it out with one torpedo, despite the fact that they BoP had fatally damaged the ship...

In Bridge Commander, with the Kobayashi Maru mod, a Galaxy can outfight a Defiant but it takes a long time and you get pretty beat up. Now, I know that means little, but the designers of the mod at least tried to keep the ships balanced according to the show.

[USS_Parallax]

This is how I imagine a Galaxy and Defiant Battle would be like:

Defiant dodges the majority of the Torpedoes the Galaxy fires and some of the Phase fire. If for some reason these all hit the battle would be long over but the maneuverability of the Defiant-class is it's survival since it obviously cannot take as many hits.

So basically the Galaxy-class is missing most of the time and having a hard time hitting the thing all the meanwhile the Defiant-class easily hits the behemoth but the thing is just so big and it's shields are just so good.

I see in the end the Galaxy-class winning but being heavily damage. It's phasers are the second strongest standard phasers of all the Federation and could probably do significant damage to a Defiant-class ship even if most of the Torpedoes miss.


I think the writers simply took their writers freedom a bit too seriously DS9. Sometimes the ship destroyed a dozen enemies and other times it had trouble with a single one.

[Maziwrath]

This is how I imagine a Galaxy and Defiant Battle would be like:

Defiant dodges the majority of the Torpedoes the Galaxy fires and some of the Phase fire. If for some reason these all hit the battle would be long over but the maneuverability of the Defiant-class is it's survival since it obviously cannot take as many hits.

So basically the Galaxy-class is missing most of the time and having a hard time hitting the thing all the meanwhile the Defiant-class easily hits the behemoth but the thing is just so big and it's shields are just so good.

I see in the end the Galaxy-class winning but being heavily damage. It's phasers are the second strongest standard phasers of all the Federation and could probably do significant damage to a Defiant-class ship even if most of the Torpedoes miss.


I think the writers simply took their writers freedom a bit too seriously DS9. Sometimes the ship destroyed a dozen enemies and other times it had trouble with a single one.

If you remember the USS Lakota nearly beat the Defiant and it didn't even use all of its capabilities, and it was an Excelsior-class.

Galaxy would win no problem. It wouldn't need to hit often, every hit would be majorly destructive.

[Will_Lucky]

Defiant would beat Galaxy no question, Sovereign would eat the Defiant alive though. The Sovereign was the bigger version of a Defiant.

[USS_Parallax]

If you remember the USS Lakota nearly beat the Defiant and it didn't even use all of its capabilities, and it was an Excelsior-class.

Galaxy would win no problem. It wouldn't need to hit often, every hit would be majorly destructive.

From what I understand the USS Lakota was HEAVILY and UNIQUELY modified. Also the Defiant didn't start the battle and was very reluctant to fire back too much. Basically Sisko hesitated and Admiral Leyton (who probably had enough influence to modify the ship so) did not.

[Wonko]

The Lakota was reluctant to use quantum torpedoes against the Defiant. If the chick captain whatshername hadn't disobeyed Leyton's order to fire, the Defiant might very well have been destroyed.

[misterglass]

Comparing numbers, a Galaxy will always overcome a Defiant. That's why everyone builds bigger ships because they should be stronger.

The reason something like the Defiant can eat up several ships larger than it is the crew is very capable, the Captain is very intelligent, the ship is very advanced, and the bad guys are always dumb.

Look at any flight sim. You always run into a case where you are against a ship much bigger than yours. Still, you in a fighter, can destroy it. It's because you can outsmart the bigger ship, you can maneuver around their fire, etc.

Like in Armada, it's all numbers. A Galaxy will always defeat a Defiant.

There was a great episode in DS9 where Bashir recruits some genetically enhanced people to do some Intel work. They run all sorts of statistics that show the Federation will not win the war. Then Bashir proves to them that all their numbers are wrong because they don't account for variables. A brave (or foolish) captain taking a risk, the development of a new technology, the discovery of a wormhole, etc. Since they can't even predict what 1 human will do, all their numbers are for not.

[Maziwrath]

From what I understand the USS Lakota was HEAVILY and UNIQUELY modified. Also the Defiant didn't start the battle and was very reluctant to fire back too much. Basically Sisko hesitated and Admiral Leyton (who probably had enough influence to modify the ship so) did not.

It was only uniquely modified prior to the Dominion War, it is a refit that most of the Excelsiors would eventually receive.

[Stiphilis]

I think the Defiant vs Galaxy debate is close enough to depend on who is commanding each vessel. They do different things anyway. The Defiant is basically a frigate (it's called an "Escort" IIRC, but it's basically a frigate), while the Galaxy is a heavy cruiser. The Galaxy has enough crew capacity to successfuly initiate boarding actions and is meant to be the hammer brought in after skirmishing; the Defiant is probably the best skirmish ship in the fleet.

The Intrepid should lose to either ship though, IMHO.

In MMO parlance, the Galaxy is the tank, the Defiant is the DPS, and the Intrepid is the scout.

[Flatfingers]

Ship balance! I hope it is good and makes sense. :P

Likewise!

In fact, I felt so strongly about this some months back that I actually put together a spreadsheet detailing all the features of all the ships seen on-screen in Star Trek, and using those values to calculate not only the relative combat strength of every ship class, but their likely exploration capability as well.

Yes, I had some free time then... why do you ask? ;)

If you're curious, check out the essay "Comparative Rankings of Starships in Star Trek (http://flatfingers-theory.blogspot.com/2007/07/comparative-rankings-of-starships-in.html)" I wrote to describe my findings.

I freely admit that there's some subjectivity to my results. Some of the ship values (things like number of impulse engines, ship's mass, etc.) I could find in canonical documentation; some I had to interpolate; and some I just flat made up based on what I considered reasonable assumptions about the purpose of a ship class.

That said, the results were still pretty interesting. One of the things I found (which is relevant to this thread) is that while most ships were reasonably well balanced with respect to their on-screen capabilities, there were a couple of ship classes that were just ludicrously over-successful given their design specs: namely, the Intrepid and Defiant classes.

On paper, there's no way ships like Voyager and Defiant should have survived some of the firefights they got themselves into. Despite the ridiculous number of phaser arrays on the Intrepid class, for example (only a couple less than a Galaxy class ship is said to mount, despite the Intrepid being a much smaller ship class), they still would have been pwned repeatedly by the Borg and pretty much everybody acknowledges that.

The only reason Voyager and Defiant survived as long as they did, IMO, is because they were what I call "hero" ships. Basically they were like additional cast members... and most of the time, you just don't kill off your cast members. Even more importantly, Voyager and Defiant had to remain basically intact -- rather than turning into a pretty cloud of debris -- because if they'd blown up, most of the human cast would have been space toast... and again, most of the time on TV shows you just can't do that.

So I consider Voyager and Defiant to be anomalies. They're not representative of how the ships we've seen on Star Trek would likely perform if they were real (and if their opponent ships were also real).

It'll be interesting to see if Cryptic follows the TV shows in making these ships overpowered (assuming they're in the game), or if they develop their own set of ship specs with an eye toward objective balance.

--Flatfingers

[USS_Parallax]

Lets raise the stakes.

USS Defiant with Sisko commanding vs USS Enterprise-D with Picard commanding. WHO WINS!?

[Maziwrath]

Lets raise the stakes.

USS Defiant with Sisko commanding vs USS Enterprise-D with Picard commanding. WHO WINS!?

This would be better served in the Trek Discussion forum and not the ST:O forum.

[Daggaroth]

Phasers: short - mid range weapons with decent rate of fire and damage

pulse phasers: short range weapons with excellent rate of fire and good damage

Disruptor s: short range weapons with fast rate of fire and huge damage

Photon Torpedoes: Long range Weapons with good rate of fire and good damage

Quantum Torpedoes: long range weapons with good rate of fire and huge damage

[J.L.Picard]

The defiant you see in DS9 is NOT a standard Defiant it has been thoroughly upgraded. This defiant was on par with an Exelcior refit. Defiant class ships are destroyers. Defiant will NEVER beat a ship that is a classes above itself if the captain skills are even. Work and Cisco are bad ass's thats why they do so well. The galaxy class is a dreadnaught and would basically obliterate the defiant. The intrepid is unique in that its as smaller then an akira but is at minimum as powerfull this is because its basically a mini sovereign all sovereign tech. is installed on the Intrepid It's cheap fast and agile and if its underestimated it will knock you into the next centuary. You see contradictions in the series because they take the captains skills into account.
You should expect to see people with defiants beating others with ship classes slighty more powerfull then their own but this will be because they are good at the game. last point The pulse canon's that the defiant carries were originally designed for Starbases lol thats why they rip into cardassian like a knife through warm butter and besides the cardassians approach to war is ill bring ten ****** ***** and hope that one gets lucky were the federation approach is top end technology. basically in general 1 federation ship should be able to tabke on 2 of a corresponding class from the cardassians.

[FaeryFire]

Hmm, there are webpages and webpages dedicated to ship comparisons, entangled by the series inconsistencies.
I'm not sure you can draw a conclusion here :)

[Morbius]

I'd like to hope that player and team skills will have a bigger role in being victorious in space combat than simply what class of ship you have.

-Morbius

[J.L.Picard]

when you guys think Defiant do not think of the USS Defiant that is not the ship that roles of the lines. The USS Defiant is of a Light Cruiser class it has been heavily modified. If you think defiant from STO will be like the DS9 one you will be severely dissapointed. Ships have classes for a reason, if you ignore player ability/captain ability a

Battleship >Dreadnaught >Heavy Cruiser >Cruiser----->Light Cruiser>Destroyer >Scout

Sovereign >Galaxy-------->Akira ----------->-------------->Intrepid----- >Defiant-------- >Norway
------------- >Nebula-------->Achillies-------> Excelsior >----------------> New Orleans>Saber
-------------> Ambassador >------------------> Miranda >---------------->----------------->


these are just some of the top of my head. Ships are classified according to size role and power and Intrepid is on par with an Excelsior but it is alot smaller and definately has a smaller complement crew wise, The Akira and Achillies are the new workhorses of the federation fleet both are new designs made to kick ass. The majority of Dreadnaughts are simply Battleships of the past that no-longer classify as Battleships because of new designs( in the case of the fedaration the Sovereign).
taking these things into account you cant guess were ships like the prometheus will go. Its a relatively small vessel(nearly half the size of a Sovereign) but with crazy firepower, so in the TNG universe it would probably fit the role of a cruiser/Heavy cruiser but since this is like 30 beyond TNG it will probably join the cruiser/Light cruiser class since te Excelsior and miranda are being faded out of the fleet.

If you guys can think of any that i missed and know what class it is feel free to copy and paste and add your own and post it See how many ships we can sort into these classses

[Croesis]

A Defiant class ship would easily eat it's way through a Galaxy class. The Defiant was designed to be a warship to combat the borg. It's power to size ratio easily outweighs a Galaxy class which wasn't designed to be a ship of war. Being smaller and more manouverable also allows it to be a harder target to hit while a Galaxy is a much larger target. Even an Intrepid class would have difficulty, although it's systems are more advanced than a Galaxy class and it's a smaller target. Now a Sovreign class would put up a good fight against a Defiant class and would be a close fight.

Obviously experience is everything, knowing the capabilities of your ship and crew greatly increases your chances of defeating the opponant. Size isn't the be all and end all of fights. Take out the engines and weapons and all you have left is a massive object for target practise.

[Falin]

Any SOL should be able to take out any smaller vessel 1 on 1, a defiant, no matter how it's outfitted just does not have the ability to produce the energy needed to punch through a galaxy's shields. Galaxy's are designed with a very larger power system and can sustain enough damage from a defiant for the galaxy to lock on and destroy the defiant in short order.

I mean Galaxy's are designed to withstand and survive an encouter with a romulan warbird, heck it's shields are even strong enough to last long enough to withdrawl from 2 of them attacking it.

[Croesis]

You obviously don't understand the act of research and development. The Defiant class was designed and built after the Galaxy class, it was built to be small and agile with the latest systems to take on the Borg. The Galaxy Classes large power system is negated when you consider it also has to protect a larger area.

[Valenthalas]

I don't think this debate is ever going to end.. it will continue long after Cryptic decides how it will be handled in their game.. that said... I don't think the Defiant class ships in the game are going to be nearly powerful enough to hold their own against a Galaxy or other large ship.. for one, I don't think the Defiant from DS9, as heavily modified as it is, would be an equal match.. sure it depends on Captains, Ops, Tactical, etc from both ships.. and sometimes the Defiant may get lucky and sometimes the Galaxy may destroy it before it gets close.. who knows?.. but the point is.. the standard Defiants are NOT as modified and powerful as the one on DS9.. though I'm sure they can be upgraded to be so. I -HIGHLY- doubt the Defiant from DS9 could last long at all in a fight vs the Sovereign class.. a warship using the latest technology (which includes the "upgraded" technology on the Defiant, and More.. not to mention being much more heavily armed)

So unless the Galaxy class ship has junior officers running the bridge and the Defiants got a very experienced senior staff.. I'd say the odds are in favor of the Galaxy... I wouldn't want to be on either ship for that fight though :P

[FaeryFire]

Especially, since the Defiant generally shoots with pulse phasers, save the time when it shoot normal phasers or the time it shoots from the deflector.
Hard to gauge its firepower I imagine.

[Polt]

This is a well rounded discussion.

Flatfingers, I give it to you again that you are a master of all things Trek...

I try to stay away from telling people what they "obiviously don't understand" since that is an inflamitory statement in my opinion...

What it comes down to is that the ships we see on the television shows are not static machines with set specifications. If the writers wanted an Oberth class startship to escape with So-in-so on board from Captain Picard in his super uber ship of the week to move a plot line forward, then they would make it happen.

A prime example is the distruction of the Enterprise-D in Generations. There is no way you can explain it to me - other than Riker being a complete incompentant - that a old bird of prey could take out the Enterprise-D. (All Riker had to do is rotate the shield harmonics [which they know how to do because of the Borg] and the shots from Lursa and Betors ship wouldn't get through.) But the writers wanted to blow up the Enterprise-D and so it happened.

If the writers needed a super uber Excelsior class ship to seriously damage the Defiant - they made it happen.

If the writers needed a Galaxy class ship (the Odessey) to be taken out by a small Jem'hadar fighter - they made it happen.

How many more examples do I need to list? I hope that the ships are balanced. The only warning I have is you cannot rely on what you saw on the shows to prove your point. Some serious discussion should take place regarding the capabilities of the ships, and none of the arguments should be based on what has been seen on TV or the Movies. They are unreliable.

[Croesis]

the standard Defiants are NOT as modified and powerful as the one on DS9.. though I'm sure they can be upgraded to be so. I -HIGHLY- doubt the Defiant from DS9 could last long at all in a fight vs the Sovereign class.. a warship using the latest technology (which includes the "upgraded" technology on the Defiant, and More.. not to mention being much more heavily armed)

I'm sure each class is upgraded to be in line with each other ship of it's class everytime is puts into dock for full maintenance. Thus I'd say that designs done for the prototype and approved would be copied over to all other Defiant classes in due time. Obviously each ships Chief engineer would be able to modify their ship slightly...

I'd agree with you on the Sovreign, but I do think the fight will last a decent period to inflict some damage, as I said size and manouverability matters. I do think that the Defiant could disable a Galaxy Class after focussing it's large firepower at a single point in the shields.

However, as many have said, the game will have set rules regarding classes but I do not expect them to be in accordance with size of the vessel I'm going to assume that Bigger ships will have large power but low agility and smaller ships will have lower power but greater agility.

[J.L.Picard]

You obviously don't understand the act of research and development. The Defiant class was designed and built after the Galaxy class, it was built to be small and agile with the latest systems to take on the Borg. The Galaxy Classes large power system is negated when you consider it also has to protect a larger area.

No you obviously dont understand taht if the defiant could own the galaxy it would be a Battleship/Dreadnaught.
seriously last time ima say this
DEFIANTS ARE NOTHING LIKE THE USS DEFIANT FROM DS9 NOTHING!!!! JESUS DEFIANTS ARE DESTROYERS

Defiants would need to be SIGNIFICANTLY refitted to take on a galaxy and win. you can talk about all the defiants firepower but end of the day its shields are USELESS against a Type 10 phasers that ALL galaxy class vessels carry. let me put this in another manner.
Defiant would be slaughtered by Intrepid OR an Akira/Achillies (dont bother coming with the technology argument because Intrepid is way more advanced the Akira carris 4 times the same armaments and the Defiant and the Achillies is a Attack Variant of the Akira) Galaxy would pawn any of these ships with the exception of the achillies(even fight since Achillies is a heavy Cruiser with some seriously sick firepower) Get it in you heads The Defiant is a good ship yes BUT dont compare it with dreadnaughts because its not in the same league 2 pulse canons a torpedo launcher and 1 phaser strip will never beat Type 8 shields with 8 Type 10 Phaser strips and 5(cant remember correctly) torpedo launchers.

[incardine]

This is a well rounded discussion.

Flatfingers, I give it to you again that you are a master of all things Trek...

I try to stay away from telling people what they "obiviously don't understand" since that is an inflamitory statement in my opinion...

What it comes down to is that the ships we see on the television shows are not static machines with set specifications. If the writers wanted an Oberth class startship to escape with So-in-so on board from Captain Picard in his super uber ship of the week to move a plot line forward, then they would make it happen.

A prime example is the distruction of the Enterprise-D in Generations. There is no way you can explain it to me - other than Riker being a complete incompentant - that a old bird of prey could take out the Enterprise-D. (All Riker had to do is rotate the shield harmonics [which they know how to do because of the Borg] and the shots from Lursa and Betors ship wouldn't get through.) But the writers wanted to blow up the Enterprise-D and so it happened.

If the writers needed a super uber Excelsior class ship to seriously damage the Defiant - they made it happen.

If the writers needed a Galaxy class ship (the Odessey) to be taken out by a small Jem'hadar fighter - they made it happen.

How many more examples do I need to list? I hope that the ships are balanced. The only warning I have is you cannot rely on what you saw on the shows to prove your point. Some serious discussion should take place regarding the capabilities of the ships, and none of the arguments should be based on what has been seen on TV or the Movies. They are unreliable.

/seconded


I dont think we will every be happy with ship balance. Whatever Cryptic decides will make somebody unhappy, and will probably be contradicted somewhere in one of the TV shows, movies, or whatever.

All I ask is the decision be made with consistency, and with an eye on realism.

[JFendley]

I don't know how you guys feel about all of this but check this out:

http://www.ditl.org/

The Daystorm Institute - this place has a wealth of knowledge based on the shows, movies, various books, and also some speculation.

The Defiant class, in my opinion, is capable of blowing away a Galaxy class ship but not a Soverign class ship. The Defiant probably has about an extra decade of development and more advanced technology than a Galaxy class ship. The Defiant was built for war and I think the Soverign was designed with an emphasis on fighting as well.

I would hope that I could take a Defiant class ship and chew through most anything. But I also hope that even when you're out gunned you can still prevail through some other means. All the Star Trek TV show crews has gone against the odds and won. I hope we can too.

[J.L.Picard]

/seconded


I dont think we will every be happy with ship balance. Whatever Cryptic decides will make somebody unhappy, and will probably be contradicted somewhere in one of the TV shows, movies, or whatever.

All I ask is the decision be made with consistency, and with an eye on realism.

Yep. I apologise If i seemed rude, i just get rallied up when people claim that the second weakest class ships would destroy the second most powerfull vessel in the federation.

If you play SFC3 you can get a good idea of how ship combat should happen(just imagen itin 3D :D)
If you were a GOOD player you could be deadly with a Defiant and had a good chance to take out a new player with a galaxy. you would stick to one side of the ship and attack the systems on that side take out the warp core and boom over but once you met a good player in Galaxy it would be game over they would ajust shield strength to the approppriat side cange torpedoes setting to detonate at close range doing increased damage and be constantly manouvering to adjust shield basicaly the defiant=owned.

[FEA_Lt_Timothy_Corey_Dalton]

The Lakota is a unique fit of Excelsior Class espacially made for Section 31 (Lakota is a ships in Section 31´s duty...) here the memory alpha comparison between standard Excelsior class and Lakota- Type Excelsior (German, because in English version the number of phaser arrays isn´t shown- just look at the tables under the pics). In a strange way the German article is much in more detail than the english one...


http://memory-alpha.org/de/wiki/Excelsior-Klasse (Memory Alpha Excelsior-Class article (German))

If that facts are canon, that Lakota- Type Excelsior is a dreadnought or battleship- the defiant an escort corvette.

And I don´t think so that Defiant dodge every Torpedo. Galaxy fires bunches of 5 Torpedos at once in TNG Episode "Yesterday´s Enterprise"- wann see how Defiant wants to dodge 5 Torpedos at once...
And Galaxy got refitted too- Enterprise-D was one of the unrefitted Ships. This Galaxy is called the Venture- Type Galaxy and got two phaser arrays more than conventional type and is capable of use quantum torpedos I think- with the same fire rate as unrefitted Galaxy- Class. Result: Defiant catches some quantum torpedos and that was it... And another reason why Defiant is bare outnumbered- Defiant main armanement are the impulse phasers, which have just a short range. Galaxy can attack from farer range and got the first shots. The few Phasers on Defiant can´t blast a fly against it.

Defiant only blasts Galaxy if they have the adavantage of surprise to getting in range of pulse phasers, but it is more risky too, because in nearer range the small chance to dodge is heavy weakened.

ANd by the way- I´d rarely seen a conventional phaser misses target, because it´s a pinpoint weapon.

[Croesis]

No you obviously dont understand taht if the defiant could own the galaxy it would be a Battleship/Dreadnaught.
seriously last time ima say this
DEFIANTS ARE NOTHING LIKE THE USS DEFIANT FROM DS9 NOTHING!!!! JESUS DEFIANTS ARE DESTROYERS .

If I could point you to the real world and the USS Cole which was disabled by a fishing boat...

Regardless. Destroyer, Battleship, Dreadnoughts are names given to a ship because of it's armament and intended function. That does not mean it will beat all classes below it hands down. A straight blow for blow match sure, but there will never be a time when that will happen. The Defiant is more agile and a smaller target with ablative armour as well as the shields plus it's firepower that was designed with the borg in mind and Quantum torpedos.
As I said before, you only need to take out the engines of a ship to disable it and then it's weapons to render it useless. Are you really trying to say that the Defiant's pulse phasers would not do anything to a Galaxy's sheilds? Also considering that the Defiant Class was built after the Intrepid class I can't see it being that advanced.

[J.L.Picard]

Lakota= Heavy Cruiser similar armament to an Akira/Achillies. The onl thing the Defiant has going for it is that its got bite but its just not gonna happen vs a Galaxy.

[Croesis]

The Defiant class, in my opinion, is capable of blowing away a Galaxy class ship but not a Soverign class ship. The Defiant probably has about an extra decade of development and more advanced technology than a Galaxy class ship. The Defiant was built for war and I think the Soverign was designed with an emphasis on fighting as well.

I would hope that I could take a Defiant class ship and chew through most anything. But I also hope that even when you're out gunned you can still prevail through some other means. All the Star Trek TV show crews has gone against the odds and won. I hope we can too.

This is how I see it. In any case I just hope that each class can be effective against more than just the 'lower' classes, else we'll end up with everyone flying a Sovreign into battle.

[J.L.Picard]

what they need is to keep it down to skill of the player If you are evenly matched in skill then a galaxy SHOULD destroy a Defiant END OFF.

If the Federation wanted the Defiant to be stronger then a Galaxy then they would have done so and wouldnt have classified it as a destroyer its that simple. like i said go play SFC3 it has the right approach because it allows the skill of the player to overcome better ships BUT it doest let smaller ships defeat the more powerfull ships when the player skills are even AND THIS IS THE KEY POINT. If they take your view of having a destroyer beating Dreadnaughts this game will be plain **** because 90% of the people wont bother moving on to tugher ships to get because they can stay in an OVERATED ship and get away with it

[FEA_Lt_Timothy_Corey_Dalton]

This is how I see it. In any case I just hope that each class can be effective against more than just the 'lower' classes, else we'll end up with everyone flying a Sovreign into battle.


Don´t think so, that everybody will fly a Sovereign, because everyone has hers/his favourite ship, and they´ll still wants to fly them, just not because they may be ineffective but why tey just like them.

[Croesis]

Don´t think so, that everybody will fly a Sovereign, because everyone has hers/his favourite ship, and they´ll still wants to fly them, just not because they may be ineffective but why tey just like them.

I'm thinking those players who, as in most MMO's, prefer to just PvP.

[FEA_Lt_Timothy_Corey_Dalton]

I'm thinking those players who, as in most MMO's, prefer to just PvP.

In that way you may be right ;) but think Prometheus is more effective ^^

[Croesis]

what they need is to keep it down to skill of the player If you are evenly matched in skill then a galaxy SHOULD destroy a Defiant END OFF.

If the Federation wanted the Defiant to be stronger then a Galaxy then they would have done so and wouldnt have classified it as a destroyer its that simple. like i said go play SFC3 it has the right approach because it allows the skill of the player to overcome better ships BUT it doest let smaller ships defeat the more powerfull ships when the player skills are even AND THIS IS THE KEY POINT. If they take your view of having a destroyer beating Dreadnaughts this game will be plain **** because 90% of the people wont bother moving on to tugher ships to get because they can stay in an OVERATED ship and get away with it

I'm going to wait for the official statistics of the ships according to the game and not from any technical manuals or other ST games. Each class is bound to have strengths to use and weaknesses to exploit, such is the way of MMO's. A really good player should be able to take out a decent player even with a 'lower' class (progressively more difficult the 'lower' the class) if they are aware of the weaknesses. This isn't going to be like SFC3, I doubt it's going to be like any other ST game out there.

[Croesis]

In that way you may be right ;) but think Prometheus is more effective ^^

If thats the case then yeah, whatever class is the 'beefiest' will be the most used until someone finds a weakness and shows everyone how to exploit it.

[bitgolem]

Sheer size would allow a Galaxy to survive against either a Defiant or Intrepid, I'd think. A Defiant, with quantum torpedoes and all, would probably be capable of more damage than an Intrepid, but I'd wager a Galaxy could handle both of them.

Size means nothing when I blow a quantum torpedoe through your warp core. Remember, 2/3 of a Galaxies size is family and crew quarters. Defiant is designed to resist target locks, get in fast and kick you in the junk.

[Croesis]

Size means nothing when I blow a quantum torpedoe through your warp core. Remember, 2/3 of a Galaxies size is family and crew quarters. Defiant is designed to resist target locks, get in fast and kick you in the junk.

Quoted for Truth. Although I don't think 'Kicking in the junk' was an actual design point...

[Deltab]

If I recall it took the Defiant some time to take out larger Cardassian ships. I also recall watching a Galaxy class, for lack of a better term, "pwn the same ships faces". I can't remember which episode, but it showed them as more then a match to a Defiant. You have to remember DS:9 took place after TNG, thus the old Galaxy class was weaker then those seen in DS:9.

That Said, the Defiant class should still crush the vast majority of ships, including the Intrepid.

PvP wise(which I do hope they have here), the Defiant should be a higher end ship. If you ever played Birth of the Federation, I think it should almost be to that level, however slower at warp.

[Launchpad1986]

Yep. I apologise If i seemed rude, i just get rallied up when people claim that the second weakest class ships would destroy the second most powerfull vessel in the federation.

If you play SFC3 you can get a good idea of how ship combat should happen(just imagen itin 3D :D)
If you were a GOOD player you could be deadly with a Defiant and had a good chance to take out a new player with a galaxy. you would stick to one side of the ship and attack the systems on that side take out the warp core and boom over but once you met a good player in Galaxy it would be game over they would ajust shield strength to the approppriat side cange torpedoes setting to detonate at close range doing increased damage and be constantly manouvering to adjust shield basicaly the defiant=owned.

So im to take a game, which is not cannon to the actural show. Im not disagreeing, but im not agreeing with the defiant vs a galaxy who will win as we haven't seen it... all this is speculation. Although I do remember the cloaking device............. Then again on DS9 it took a couple of shots to destroy something, but for some reason the writes forgot shields.. if you look at anything, specially around the dominion war arc you can basically see both sides fighting with no shields.

[AchillesHeel]

Size means nothing when I blow a quantum torpedoe through your warp core. Remember, 2/3 of a Galaxies size is family and crew quarters. Defiant is designed to resist target locks, get in fast and kick you in the junk.
I agree. The Defiant is a ship a Klingon can relate to (no coincidence they gave it to Worf, eh?). I bet even the Jem'Hadar say "Erm... Defiant... Good ship. Too many chairs."

Another thing to consider is that the Defiant wasn't designed with a great operational range, and is dependant upon a nearby station, planet, or support vessel. I don't know if that will matter in STO, but it would be an interesting limitation to put on some vessels (perhaps it's self-repair capability could be reduced or something - just thinking out loud). On the other hand, A Galaxy is practically self-sufficient, and was one of the first ships selected to go through the Bajoran wormhole to explore the Gamma Quadrant. Heck, Voyager literally traveled halfway across the universe.

[Valenthalas]

This is going to be taking place 20 years after Nemesis, and considering the age the Galaxy classes would be then.. I'm sure that they have went through some major upgrades by then to better prepare them for action against any threats. I'm sure the Defiants will have been upgraded (or be upgradeable) by that point as well, having themselves been 30 years old at this point in time. And I'm not sure if all other Defiant class ships are equipped with Ablative armor.. that was something unique to the Defiant I believe. Actually, after reading the entry on the USS Defiant at Memory Alpha, it notes that "As late as 2372, Defiant-class vessels weren't commonly equipped with this type of technology."

But with 4 phaser cannons, 2 phaser beam emitters, 4 forward and 2 aft quantum torpedo launchers.. it packs one hell of a punch any way you look at it.

[Valenthalas]

So im to take a game, which is not cannon to the actural show. Im not disagreeing, but im not agreeing with the defiant vs a galaxy who will win as we haven't seen it... all this is speculation. Although I do remember the cloaking device............. Then again on DS9 it took a couple of shots to destroy something, but for some reason the writes forgot shields.. if you look at anything, specially around the dominion war arc you can basically see both sides fighting with no shields.

Well the Defiant-class ships in STO will not have cloaking devices, that was something unique to the USS Defiant stationed on DS9.. and only allowed on that one ship via a special ammendment to the Treaty of Algeron. Though after another 20 years.. who knows if other special ammendments have been made?.. maybe they all have the ablative armor too... I guess we'll just have to wait and see... and speculate :D

[Deltab]

So im to take a game, which is not cannon to the actural show. Im not disagreeing, but im not agreeing with the defiant vs a galaxy who will win as we haven't seen it... all this is speculation. Although I do remember the cloaking device............. Then again on DS9 it took a couple of shots to destroy something, but for some reason the writes forgot shields.. if you look at anything, specially around the dominion war arc you can basically see both sides fighting with no shields.

I think the problem people are having is they are trying to stay 100% in cannon. If you do that you'll find some really odd problems. The Defiant when crewed by Sisco could take out an entire fleet, yet when crewed by Warf, it gets beat up by a Borg Cube. The goal of the Star Trek writers, is to provide a good story, not balance. Often when they talk about star ships in fleets they make it seem that Excelsior class ships are on par with Galaxy and even Sovereign.

It happens all the time in star trek, but i'm going to use a star wars point. In a new hope, a bunch of storm troopers come through the door the massacre the rebels. Later their blaster marks were too "precise", yet when Luke, Leia, and Han are shot at by storm troopers, they are never hit.

These things happen a lot in Voyager, DS:9, and TNG

The trick is trying to find the balance in the end.

[Croesis]

OH FFS If you are going to talk about Defiant class vessels STOP USING THE FRAKING DS9 USS DEFIANT AS AN EXAMPLE jesus how many ****ing times. The USS Defiant has been severely upgraded to the point its a light cruiser/Cruiser class. No defiant vessel in STO will resemble the USS DEFIANT. Intrepid will WTF OWN a defiant anyday of the weak and if you plan on using the DS9 as an example Ill use the Upgraded Intrepid USS VOYAGER errr WTF OWNED. The Inrepid has more armor more firepower is is nearly as manuverable as a Defiant class ship The sensors are WAY more advanced not to go into the actual computer and targetting systems. not to mention that when attrition is taken into account the Defiant will run out of torpedoes long before the Intrepid does. Last point to be made Intrepids can be equiped with Tricobalt torpedoes simply put one of these babies will deecimate a Defiant best of all it doesnt even need a direct hit.
Lastly the Defiants shields ARE USELESS against ships above the Heavy Cruiser class because they all cary Type VIII phaser arrays and higher. The Galaxy class in particular carries Type X Phasers, YOUR AGILITY DOESNT MEAN **** you CANNOT go around dodging phaser fire like you can torpedoes you can expect your shield to be down in a coupld of hits. During times of war The galaies Civilian complicant can be replaced with Starfleet personal basically they will Teleport a Platoon of marines onboard your vessel once again GAME OVER. stop rambling on about ireelevant crap that doesnt even apply to every single ship of that line except ONE.

Citation please. You don't know the specifications of the ships from the game. Tricobalt devices are relatively ineffective when used against shielded targets due to the slow expansion of energy from the explosion. It is primarily used as a demolition weapon, most notably against space stations and ground targets. (VOY: "The Voyager Conspiracy")

Lol, you need to calm down.

[Valenthalas]

Yeah, seriously.. what are you getting so worked up about?.. and who are you yelling at anyway?..

[Valenthalas]

Another thing to think about I guess would be the amount of ships available.. I mean.. there were only what.. 6 Galaxy class ships created initially?.. with enough stock parts to build 6 more if the need arised? (I'm sure after the borg and dominion that they most certainly had done so) but did they build a lot more?.. and by this time aren't Galaxy class ships not even being created anymore?.. I thought the Sovereign replaced their builds at the shipyards.. so if a lot of people get Galaxy class ships.. then I guess that means they either mass produced them for a short time or are still being built, despite the Sovereign class taking over their role.

[J.L.Picard]

Citation please. You don't know the specifications of the ships from the game. Tricobalt devices are relatively ineffective when used against shielded targets due to the slow expansion of energy from the explosion. It is primarily used as a demolition weapon, most notably against space stations and ground targets. (VOY: "The Voyager Conspiracy")

Lol, you need to calm down.

Actually Tricobalts have been used previously in games. They were used by the Steamrunner class and they were Devastating vs shielded targets. to say that an explosion of that magnitude would e inafective against shielded targets is plain retarded.

[Croesis]

Actually Tricobalts have been used previously in games. They were used by the Steamrunner class and they were Devastating vs shielded targets. to say that an explosion of that magnitude would e inafective against shielded targets is plain retarded.

I prefer to take canon sources over non-canon sources. Those games aren't ST:O

[Thorgar]

I think if they are going to pull this off right they are going to have to run with something like this:

1) Ship Size: space on a ship is at a premium you cant build on new floors for fun, so size should determine what you can put into your ship.

2) Power: the amount of power your warp engines put out and your back up engines put out.

3) Hull: is it a standard hull? a shield re-enforced hull? armored hull?

4) Crew Size: how many people does it take to operate your ship? what is the minimum you need and how does having that few effect your ships preformance?

5) Manuverability: How well can you move? you cant dodge phasers but you can make the other guy shoot where you just where.

6) Hit Locations: we should be able to target specific parts of the ship and hit them. Its a staple of Star Trek to target only weapons, shields, or warp engines.. my favorite the bridge.

7) Weapons: what do you have and what direction do they face? much more important on smaller ships that cant mount arrays that can hit many locations at once, like Birds of Prey.

8) Crew Experience: you may be captain and controlling through the keyboard, but your crews skills should play a big part.

9) shields: what type do you have? how much power can you dump into them from your engines to reinforce them with out the shield emitters burning out? How flexible are they? Do you have a wide modulation range or are you stuck at a few presets?

10) Sensors: unless you got REALLY good eyeballs most fights happen at millions of miles apart. How good are you sensors? how well can you detect that cloaked Klingon?

Their are more but these are the main in my opinion. do you spend space and power on good sensors or did you spinal mount that class 4 base phaser to your Galaxy class? Since it says we get to costumize our ships im hoping they take all this into account.

[Valenthalas]

Size means nothing when I blow a quantum torpedoe through your warp core. Remember, 2/3 of a Galaxies size is family and crew quarters. Defiant is designed to resist target locks, get in fast and kick you in the junk.

Actually I have to agree with JL on this one.. it's not entirely true about the family part of Galaxies.. as described here:

Regarding the presence of families on starships, Ronald D. Moore commented "Perhaps [still] on some Galaxy-class ships, but I think this was an experiment that failed. I think that the "family friendly" starship notion was an interesting idea, but one that didn't pan out. There was always something awkward about Picard ordering the ship into battle situations with kiddies running through the corridors. And no matter how much lip service we paid to the "our families are part of our strength" concept, it never seemed very smart or very logical to bring the spouse and kids along when you're facing down the Borg, or guarding the Neutral Zone, or plunging the ship into uncharted spatial anomalies."

[Croesis]

Actually I have to agree with JL on this one.. it's not entirely true about the family part of Galaxies.. as described here:

Regarding the presence of families on starships, Ronald D. Moore commented "Perhaps [still] on some Galaxy-class ships, but I think this was an experiment that failed. I think that the "family friendly" starship notion was an interesting idea, but one that didn't pan out. There was always something awkward about Picard ordering the ship into battle situations with kiddies running through the corridors. And no matter how much lip service we paid to the "our families are part of our strength" concept, it never seemed very smart or very logical to bring the spouse and kids along when you're facing down the Borg, or guarding the Neutral Zone, or plunging the ship into uncharted spatial anomalies."

Perhaps so, but that still means that, unless an upgrade uses that space for something else, 2/3 of the ship is not being utilised and is simply creating a larger target profile and putting more of a drain on the power systems.

[J.L.Picard]

I prefer to take canon sources over non-canon sources. Those games aren't ST:O

Now you know your canon is scripted so that things happen to develop the story for no reason at all. the biggest example of this was the Defiant beating a seriously kitted out Excelsior not to mention things like the galaxy class being obliterated by one dominion ship. then come a few eps later the opposite is hapening.

One final point all these games are canon because they have been written to comply with AND develop storylines.

[Valenthalas]

True, but perhaps they utilized that space in newer designs or refits to add newer systems, additional torpedo bays, sensors, compliment of marines (sort of like in "Yesterday's Enterprise" I guess) or things of that nature.. hard to tell.. you know that something would have had to have changed in the 30 something years of Galaxy classes being around.. I would imagine at least a few major refits in that time for some of them. Plus I'm sure if they actually made some new Galaxy classes, they changed some of the design specs to suit this. Just think of what a refit it was for the Constitution classes from the series to the movie.. practically an entirely new ship built from the frame.. and that was a refit. Judging by the in-game screens though.. the Galaxy still has that "luxury liner" look to it.. but that doesn't mean it hasn't had some major systems upgrades and redesigns.

[Bangs]

lf the Scimitar? :p

[Croesis]

Now you know your canon is scripted so that things happen to develop the story for no reason at all. the biggest example of this was the Defiant beating a seriously kitted out Excelsior not to mention things like the galaxy class being obliterated by one dominion ship. then come a few eps later the opposite is hapening.

Canon is canon despite what happens. I would rather have this game based on canon then on other non-canon games. Besides that dominion ship was on am impact run straight into the ship, which had been fighting for a bit and has it shields either partially or fully down. No ship would be able to survive a run like that.

Nothing that takes place in Star Trek games, the Star Trek: The Experience attraction, Star Trek fan productions or Trekdom is considered canon

[Croesis]

True, but perhaps they utilized that space in newer designs or refits to add newer systems, additional torpedo bays, sensors, compliment of marines (sort of like in "Yesterday's Enterprise" I guess) or things of that nature.. hard to tell.. you know that something would have had to have changed in the 30 something years of Galaxy classes being around.. I would imagine at least a few major refits in that time for some of them. Plus I'm sure if they actually made some new Galaxy classes, they changed some of the design specs to suit this. Just think of what a refit it was for the Constitution classes from the series to the movie.. practically an entirely new ship built from the frame.. and that was a refit. Judging by the in-game screens though.. the Galaxy still has that "luxury liner" look to it.. but that doesn't mean it hasn't had some major systems upgrades and redesigns.

That's basically why I said earlier that I'll wait for the specs to be released before speculating further on technical aspects

[J.L.Picard]

like i said above "all these games are canon because they have been written to comply with AND develop storylines and they are written by ST writters"

Legacy overall was a relative bad game in comparison to other ST games HOWEVER i thoroughly enojyed the story because it had a ST feel especially with the Extras unlocked since they explain the origins of the borg and stuff

[J.L.Picard]

That's basically why I said earlier that I'll wait for the specs to be released before speculating further on technical aspects

the technical specs will probably be taken from Star Trek Ship of the Line book. since its the official specs for all the ST ships (odly enough no Enterprise NX-01)

[Croesis]

like i said above "all these games are canon because they have been written to comply with AND develop storylines and they are written by ST writters"

Legacy overall was a relative bad game in comparison to other ST games HOWEVER i thoroughly enojyed the story because it had a ST feel especially with the Extras unlocked since they explain the origins of the borg and stuff

It is widely ascertained that nothing that takes place in Star Trek games, the Star Trek: The Experience attraction, Star Trek fan productions or Trekdom is considered canon.

Story lines, characters, events, stardates, etc. that take place within the fictional novels, video games, the Animated Series, and the various comic lines have traditionally not been considered part of the canon. -STARTREK.COM

[Voorhees]

do anyone ever watch the show or movie they questions. When Dr soveran ordered the klingon women to destroy the enterprise she explained "thats a galaxy class starship, we are no match for them" Thats when he came up with the idea of using Laforge as eyes to find a weakness on the enterprise. Remember that BOP was 20 years old. The enterprise was around 7 years old but been refitted and upgraded since its construction.

[Valenthalas]

That's basically why I said earlier that I'll wait for the specs to be released before speculating further on technical aspects

Yes I agree, but at this point all we have to talk about.. is speculation.. Until something concrete (or duranium?) is released that is..

[Croesis]

the technical specs will probably be taken from Star Trek Ship of the Line book. since its the official specs for all the ST ships (odly enough no Enterprise NX-01)

Does it have the updated specs for all of the ships in the time period this game will be set in? Considering this game was to be set 5-20 years after Nemesis...

[Croesis]

Yes I agree, but at this point all we have to talk about.. is speculation.. Until something concrete (or duranium?) is released that is..

I agree, I love a good discussion, but can't stand people who get upset and lash out at other when they don't agree with their way of thinking.

[Deltab]

I think if they are going to pull this off right they are going to have to run with something like this:

1) Ship Size: space on a ship is at a premium you cant build on new floors for fun, so size should determine what you can put into your ship.

2) Power: the amount of power your warp engines put out and your back up engines put out.

3) Hull: is it a standard hull? a shield re-enforced hull? armored hull?

4) Crew Size: how many people does it take to operate your ship? what is the minimum you need and how does having that few effect your ships preformance?

5) Manuverability: How well can you move? you cant dodge phasers but you can make the other guy shoot where you just where.

6) Hit Locations: we should be able to target specific parts of the ship and hit them. Its a staple of Star Trek to target only weapons, shields, or warp engines.. my favorite the bridge.

7) Weapons: what do you have and what direction do they face? much more important on smaller ships that cant mount arrays that can hit many locations at once, like Birds of Prey.

8) Crew Experience: you may be captain and controlling through the keyboard, but your crews skills should play a big part.

9) shields: what type do you have? how much power can you dump into them from your engines to reinforce them with out the shield emitters burning out? How flexible are they? Do you have a wide modulation range or are you stuck at a few presets?

10) Sensors: unless you got REALLY good eyeballs most fights happen at millions of miles apart. How good are you sensors? how well can you detect that cloaked Klingon?

Their are more but these are the main in my opinion. do you spend space and power on good sensors or did you spinal mount that class 4 base phaser to your Galaxy class? Since it says we get to costumize our ships im hoping they take all this into account.

That is some better thinking. I hope they use the "mass" idea from SWG. For example, an A-wing is tiny fast and agile, thus it has ~66k mass, vs a B-wing which should be a bomber, and thus ~252k mass. Now each part you put on the ship takes x mass. So if you want to put a massive gun that will do crazy damage, it'll take ~40k mass. Then a fast agile engine, is ~20k mass. if you notice that alone is 60k mass.. so it would be almost impossible to fit the guns and shields on the A-wing while having a reactor to run the ship, let alone shields etc. If you also notice the B-wing has plenty of room.

The problem for the B-wing is that its much bigger and much slower/less agile. Now in space in SWG, its pretty much a 1st person shooter, thus the A-wing always kills the B-wing...

But here I think it would make more sense. A galaxy class could put a HECK of alot of firepower on it, thus becoming a battleship. Or could have a lot of science gear on it, or a mix of both. The same could be said about the Defiant, tho most likely it would be more focused on combat since it has less room for other set ups. Each ship should have x mass and that would dictate what can go on the ship.

[Voorhees]

Well, no one knows what cryptics' version of the 25th century going to be. If they going to follow PE's ships and ideas. Then the ships going to be interesting. Like that one ship with the necells folds inside the body of the ship when going into battle. Then the excaliber class that looks like a cross of the enterprise E, voyager and the defient. They were also going to design a new enterprise. As this is like 20 years in the future it would be possible a enterprise F could be made

[J.L.Picard]

It is widely ascertained that nothing that takes place in Star Trek games, the Star Trek: The Experience attraction, Star Trek fan productions or Trekdom is considered canon.

Story lines, characters, events, stardates, etc. that take place within the fictional novels, video games, the Animated Series, and the various comic lines have traditionally not been considered part of the canon. -STARTREK.COM

verywell lets take your point then. this game will have nothig to do with Canon because its a game. The Defiant will be owned by everything (that has an equally skilled captain) above its ship class level. End of argument. boy am i glad you decided to "shoot yourself in the foot".
Every class above destroyer is more powerfull and more heavily armored no canon = no hope for defiant.

[J.L.Picard]

Well, no one knows what cryptics' version of the 25th century going to be. If they going to follow PE's ships and ideas. Then the ships going to be interesting. Like that one ship with the necells folds inside the body of the ship when going into battle. Then the excaliber class that looks like a cross of the enterprise E, voyager and the defient. They were also going to design a new enterprise. As this is like 20 years in the future it would be possible a enterprise F could be made

I would love to see that. however since its only about 25 after nemesis it will probably be a refit of the Sovereign

[Valenthalas]

I agree, I love a good discussion, but can't stand people who get upset and lash out at other when they don't agree with their way of thinking.

As do I. I do not understand why some people can't take any criticism to their way of thinking.. I always try and look at all the information and formulate an opinion off of that.. such as the whole Defiant/Galaxy argument..

[Voorhees]

Orginaly PE had plans to make a enterprise F. On an interview they said they had one already designed.

[Voorhees]

Nice!!! just checked my e mail today and my e mail count is 1701!!!! i was like nice!

[Croesis]

verywell lets take your point then. this game will have nothig to do with Canon because its a game. The Defiant will be owned by everything (that has an equally skilled captain) above its ship class level. End of argument. boy am i glad you decided to "shoot yourself in the foot".
Every class above destroyer is more powerfull and more heavily armored no canon = no hope for defiant.

Officially no, ST:O unless deemed otherwise, will not be canon, but that doesn't mean it won't follow canon as closely as possible. As for what happens with the classes, why don't you wait for Beta and Release to see the specs of each class, before claiming that you are correct about everything. This is a game, because of this and it's current non-canon status it is most likely that each class will have its strengths and weaknesses, weaknesses that can be exploited by lower classes. Just think about all the other MMO's, the tank isn't unbeatable to all else if they have that knowledge and skill.

GF

[J.L.Picard]

Nice!!! just checked my e mail today and my e mail count is 1701!!!! i was like nice!

LMFAO i want to see a print scree LOL
pic or it didnt happen :D:D

[J.L.Picard]

Officially no, ST:O unless deemed otherwise, will not be canon. As for what happens with the classes, why don't you wait for Beta and Release to see the specs of each class, before claiming that you are correct about everything. This is a game, because of this and it's current non-canon status it is most likely that each class will have its strengths and weaknesses, weaknesses that can be exploited by lower classes. Just think about all the other MMO's, the tank isn't unbeatable to all else if they have that knowledge and skill.

GF

please stop contradicting yourself. All the games i mentioned had start trek people involved with the stories and even ship designs. STO is no better then they. SFC3 brilliant prequel to Nemesis, Legacy Great story on the borg and the effects of their assault on earth's past during first contact. The Armada games BRILLIANT because the story let us play through what we never had the oportunity to watch the Borg assault on the Federation. speaking of this does anyone remeber the ship that comes back from the future the federation one that comes to warn picard of the immenant borg threat.
Armada 2 just as good and most importantly it dealt with WHY the borg have remained silent after the return of voyager(that is the setting of armada 2, 6 months after voyagers return if i remember right)

[Croesis]

please stop contradicting yourself. All the games i mentioned had start trek people involved with the stories and even ship designs. STO is no better then they. SFC3 brilliant prequel to Nemesis, Legacy Great story on the borg and the effects of their assault on earth's past during first contact. The Armada games BRILLIANT because the story let us play through what we never had the oportunity to watch the Borg assault on the Federation. speaking of this does anyone remeber the ship that comes back from the future the federation one that comes to warn picard of the immenant borg threat.
Armada 2 just as good and most importantly it dealt with WHY the borg have remained silent after the return of voyager(that is the setting of armada 2, 6 months after voyagers return if i remember right)

Not being canon and not following canon are two separate things. No matter how entertaining they are or who has worked on them, they are not considered canon and thus any facts derived from them alone and not the TV or Movie series does not apply. ST:O should follow the canon from the TV series and movie series as closely as possible, but what happens in it story wise and technical wise will not be considered canon and as such the developers are slightly freer to do what they think is best for the game and the players. As far as I'm aware I've not contradicted myself. You claimed that Tricobolt devices were effective in non-canon games, whilst I refuted that with canon citation of which didn't come from ST:O. I expect there to be new races and technology in ST:O but unless it gets deemed canon, I will not use these in other conversations as canon ST fact.

[J.L.Picard]

Officially no, ST:O unless deemed otherwise, will not be canon, but that doesn't mean it won't follow canon as closely as possible. As for what happens with the classes, why don't you wait for Beta and Release to see the specs of each class, before claiming that you are correct about everything. This is a game, because of this and it's current non-canon status it is most likely that each class will have its strengths and weaknesses, weaknesses that can be exploited by lower classes. Just think about all the other MMO's, the tank isn't unbeatable to all else if they have that knowledge and skill.

GF

I understand what you are saying but there has to be a limit to how powerfull a ship can be. dont forget your ships will be your weapons/armor. Nowlike i stated before i HOPE and PRAY that the starship battles will be relative to the SFC3 battles. The reason for this is that when a good player is using a lower class ship then can OWN someone in a higher class ship who is not as skilled or at the very least cause severe damage. HOWEVER when you have 2 players of similar skills things change because the skill difference no longer matters, luck now also becomes important but even so the more heavily armed and powerfull vessel will come up trumps.

[Voorhees]

Most trek games do really good with story lines. There is more to games then just story lines tho. There is features, gameplay, etc...

If you goto gamespot.com and type startrek most trek games is under 8.0 rating the only one that has an 8 is SFC 3. legecy flopped for game play and multiplayer. Yes story was awsome but the replayability on the game sucks.

Armada 1 was done really good. Armada 2 upsetted the community and the only reason why people play that today over part 1 is because of xp compatibilty. Not saying all trek games flopped but a good number of them. The reason being is the developers try to mimic the show. What works on the show works for the show only not in the games. I hope cryptic knows this and really think about their concept around this rule.

[Croesis]

I understand what you are saying but there has to be a limit to how powerfull a ship can be. dont forget your ships will be your weapons/armor. Nowlike i stated before i HOPE and PRAY that the starship battles will be relative to the SFC3 battles. The reason for this is that when a good player is using a lower class ship then can OWN someone in a higher class ship who is not as skilled or at the very least cause severe damage. HOWEVER when you have 2 players of similar skills things change because the skill difference no longer matters, luck now also becomes important but even so the more heavily armed and powerfull vessel will come up trumps.

That's fine, that I can agree with. Although I'm sure that there will be mitigating factors present in any battle.

[J.L.Picard]

Most trek games do really good with story lines. There is more to games then just story lines tho. There is features, gameplay, etc...

If you goto gamespot.com and type startrek most trek games is under 8.0 rating the only one that has an 8 is SFC 3. legecy flopped for game play and multiplayer. Yes story was awsome but the replayability on the game sucks.

Armada 1 was done really good. Armada 2 upsetted the community and the only reason why people play that today over part 1 is because of xp compatibilty. Not saying all trek games flopped but a good number of them. The reason being is the developers try to mimic the show. What works on the show works for the show only not in the games. I hope cryptic knows this and really think about their concept around this rule.

Yep legacy is horrendus online. its near impossible to get a game.
I stopped playing armada because it nolonger works on my system and in my opinion Armada 2 is broken when it comes to online play.
Gameplay wise SFC3 is my favourite although Legacy had really good ideas and was by far the best looking ST game to date. im hoping they decide to take some of those elements into STO. Especially the damage, being able to see into the ship is awsome, and how the nacelle flashes when its hit by a torpedo I would be happy is STO had the same graphic standard as STO(it probably will since its slated for a console release)

[J.L.Picard]

That's fine, that I can agree with. Although I'm sure that there will be mitigating factors present in any battle.

Well one thing i believe is a must, this is more to do with game physics then anything else,is how on Legacy who could not fire your weapons if an allie or something was in the way that prevented you from hitting your target. In STO this would make asteroid belts magnificent hidding spots for smaller ships less able to witstand heavy blows.

[Voorhees]

well xbox 360 and ps3 has really good graphics and neither systems has reached there limits yet. So there is still room for graphics for both pc and game systems but graphics is what draws me to look at the game but to actualy keep the game is the features and game play

[J.L.Picard]

well xbox 360 and ps3 has really good graphics and neither systems has reached there limits yet. So there is still room for graphics for both pc and game systems but graphics is what draws me to look at the game but to actualy keep the game is the features and game play

I acctually really liked the first ingame pic they released, dont know if you remember it was right before PE shut down the site. The only thing i worry about at the moment is wether Cryptic is going to take a cartoony approach which worries me everytime i look at the STO image on the top left of the screen, but then i look at the ships and the planet and some ofthe new pics and this feeling fades away but that dam blue STO image keeps getting the better of me :D

[Kirky]

Officially no, ST:O unless deemed otherwise, will not be canon, but that doesn't mean it won't follow canon as closely as possible. As for what happens with the classes, why don't you wait for Beta and Release to see the specs of each class, before claiming that you are correct about everything. This is a game, because of this and it's current non-canon status it is most likely that each class will have its strengths and weaknesses, weaknesses that can be exploited by lower classes. Just think about all the other MMO's, the tank isn't unbeatable to all else if they have that knowledge and skill.

GF

I have a suggestion, why don't you and J.L Picard wait until the game comes out, one of you get a Galaxy the other a Defiant and have some PvP. Whoever survives wins.

[Kirky]

Most trek games do really good with story lines. There is more to games then just story lines tho. There is features, gameplay, etc...

If you goto gamespot.com and type startrek most trek games is under 8.0 rating the only one that has an 8 is SFC 3. legecy flopped for game play and multiplayer. Yes story was awsome but the replayability on the game sucks.

Armada 1 was done really good. Armada 2 upsetted the community and the only reason why people play that today over part 1 is because of xp compatibilty. Not saying all trek games flopped but a good number of them. The reason being is the developers try to mimic the show. What works on the show works for the show only not in the games. I hope cryptic knows this and really think about their concept around this rule.

Just saying this, BC got an 8.2. To be honest i think it has the best gameplay out of the lot, just an opinion.

[IanD967]

i agree with Kirky :D

[Necro]

the way i see it, the defiant is heavily on offensive power but very weak on defensive and is not meant to be used 1v1 but instead to augment the power of stronger vessels like the galaxy

[Reinkaos]

Defiant-class would tear through a Galaxy class, it's built for combat. It would take a beating, but it would win, I think :) and a Galaxy-class would beat an Intrepid I think, it's a more powerful ship.

[ReynoldsXD]

my....

The Galaxys all underwent a massive upgrade when the whole klingon/cardassiansituation spiraled out of control.
Need i remind you that no galaxy class was lost in the whole of the dominion war (or rather after the odyseey got killed).
The Defiant, while being a nimble ship with a lot of FORWARD FACING fire power was certainly not invicible.
The Lakota almost nailed her for example.

The issue with the mobility = not getting hit:

You always miss the major point there: the defiant eventualy has to turn towards her target to actualy shoot it, and thats the time the target can shoot back with impunity.

Galaxy class vessels, like almost all Starfleet vessels feature a nice 360° phaser coverage so no matter from where you aproach you will be under fire from at least 2-3 phaser arrays.
Not to mention the galaxy would basicly continue to fire all the time while the defiant, at some point, needs to turn away or run straight into her target.
See, the galaxy, while certainly big, is not as big as say the dominion supercruiser the valiant lost against or the lolrific example of dickwaving that the mirrir-emperors flagship was when the mirror defiant skimmed around the superstructure, supportet by an oversized raider with a cockpit the size of an effing runabout.

The defiant will put some deep dents into the galaxys shilds (depending on how clever they are with the shield management) but ultimatly it will be destroyed simply because the galaxy has a better combination of standing power and firepower, more specificaly the delievery of said firepower.
Its a constant barrage that will wear down the defiant more quickly than the attackruns the defiant is forced to do by design.



But, for STO this whole discussion is quite useless because for a game ANY game balance and a certain sense of progession is needed.

The defiant is an escort vessel at heart, designed to qickly overhelm targets its size (aka ships used for convoy raids. Bops spring to mind or the attack fighters of the jem'ha'dar) and it damn sure delivers.
But it has shown rather lackluster results when facing bigger vessels, the lakota engagement springing to mind (cardassian rustbuckets not counting up until major dominion war refit on those turning them from fodder to fodder that can defend itself).

The galaxy, 30 years after the dominion war certainly was not retrofitted back to science vessels, there were newer deisgns available the the time (intrepid is one of them) that would fulfil the same role without being a fcnk big ship.
Its safe to assume the galaxy would remain a battleship used to show Flag when needed, stil a symbol for the the Federation but one with a slightly darker tone.

So in game terms the defiant is a escort, probably avaiable very early and due to small crew involved its rather reasonable to assume you don't need to be the second benjamin sisko to be trusted with such a vessel.

A Galaxy class vessel however, is fckn large piece of asset and the lives of 600 or more or less crew arent to be trusted to some moron.

So in game terms the galaxy will be on the upper end of the "to be achieved" pyramid while the defiant is on the lower end.
Barring any extraordinary circumstances the galaxy will own a defiant simply because its higher in the food chain.

Yes, its also reasonably to assume the galaxy will beat the defiant, based on what we know about star trek, but that isnt realy the point.

The point is:

My mammoth tank beats your buggy because its an effing tank vs a buggy! And the defiant is a buggy.

[ExAstris]

There seems to be a distinct amount of "X ship is more powerful because it is" reasoning going on here :P

However, consider this, check the schematics of the Galaxy class ship (or basically any regular federation ship for that matter). Of its internal structure about how much is devoted to killing things? 10% at most, and thats if you include the things it needs anyways (warp core, etc). The defiant on the other hand? Besides the most basic support systems (bunks, a mini-medbay, a 2 shuttle hanger) is 100% warship. This doesn't automatically make it more powerful than a galaxy, but it does make it a "tough little ship".

While I might be tempted to say that Picard's pre-war galaxy glass would have serious troubles dropping the Defiant, we have to realize that these two ships will not be facing off in STO.

We instead will have heavily modified starships that have gone through decades of upgrades and outfittings.

It might be useful to note that a captain who upgrades his Galaxy class to be much more combat oriented will likely be able to roast a defiant. This doesn't take away the defiant's ability to BBQ the average ship, it just means that it will be out playing with a bunch of people who have the time to take their run of the mill excelsiors and turn them into Lakotas.

[ReynoldsXD]

While I might be tempted to say that Picard's pre-war galaxy glass would have serious troubles dropping the Defiant, we have to realize that these two ships will not be facing off in STO.


I'm glad someone actualy noticed that too.



We instead will have heavily modified starships that have gone through decades of upgrades and outfittings.

It might be useful to note that a captain who upgrades his Galaxy class to be much more combat oriented will likely be able to roast a defiant. This doesn't take away the defiant's ability to BBQ the average ship, it just means that it will be out playing with a bunch of people who have the time to take their run of the mill excelsiors and turn them into Lakotas[QUOTE]


Im delighted someone decided to mention that.

[mirkrim]

My shuttle will tear them all up..... "RAWWWWWRR!!!!"

For some reason this made me think of SCV rushing.

[Roberto]

Man, I can't even bother to get into this.

Sovereign followed very closely by Galaxy then finishing quite a ways back Defiant class. If you look, everything out there that is easily accessible over the web can tell you why.

[USS_Parallax]

The Defiant has power. I'd say it's at least in the top 5.

Ones that ARE stronger:
Soverign
Galaxy

Ones that are possibly stronger:
Nebula*
Prometheus*
Akira*
Intrepid*

[TheMasterpiece]

Previous Star Trek games have left me saying "What?" to Ship balance. Obviously the show doesn't help much since it does crazy stuff like show the Defiant rip through a few dozen Cardassian and Dominion ships while making me doubt the manliness of the Galaxy-class ships.

Defiant vs Galaxy:
Most games have the Defiant as a sort of powerful, agile scoutish type ship with little armor or shields which seems to go against the show. However I'd be pretty annoyed if the Defiant could easily destroy a Galaxy ship. In my mind a Galaxy-class ship could probably take out a Defiant-class ship but would take pretty decent damage from the battle. However I've talked to people who swear on their mom's grave that a Defiant would eat up a Galaxy based on what the show shows (which is an OP'd Defiant and the Enterprise getting almost owned several times by single captial ships).

Intrepid vs Galaxy:
Another issue. I like to think of the Intrepid as significantly weaker than a Galaxy-class ship. Again, some trekkers demand that the Intrepid-class is almost equal if not stronger. This is a crazy IMO. It's faster and more mobile and that's about it.

Ship balance! I hope it is good and makes sense. :P




The writers really gave us a cop out in DS9 dominion wars end. No way could some tiny ship like that kick so much ass when the real capital ships cant take a single hit. Its more along the lines of the USS defiant being a super ship for creative purposes.

A real defiant would be destroyed before it even knew the galaxy was there. its just not a contest.

[Roberto]

The writers really gave us a cop out in DS9 dominion wars end. No way could some tiny ship like that kick so much ass when the real capital ships cant take a single hit. Its more along the lines of the USS defiant being a super ship for creative purposes.

A real defiant would be destroyed before it even knew the galaxy was there. its just not a contest.

Exactly, its called plot gunning. They needed to make a point by bish slapping the most powerful ship type in the fleet in a stupid way. Its called lazy writing, but it is a fast track to the idea that there are some dangerous people out there.

[Hornet331]

well xbox 360 and ps3 has really good graphics and neither systems has reached there limits yet. So there is still room for graphics for both pc and game systems but graphics is what draws me to look at the game but to actualy keep the game is the features and game play

sry but graphics on console blow... ps3 is a cutdown NV 7900 series while the Xbox 360 is somewhere around ATI 2900 series with a bit more features.

Every 8800gt (considered mainstream nowadays) blows that away, and dont get me started about ATI 4xxx series or NV 2xxGTX series.

@ topic

tbh i dont care which ship beats that or this ship, i simply dont want a game where i have to own a specific shipclass cause all others suck... make a good balance for different task and im happy.

[cenglandjr]

Dude, I played Starfleet Command 3 for years. I always chose to fly smaller ships (intrepid class or defiant) due to the fact they had manuverability. Tactics are the lifeblood of space sim battles. If your opponent has a bigger ship you have 2 options...

1. Run
2. Engage with a plan

If you choose 1. you are probably smart. If you choose 2. you're probably even smarter because you have a plan. A common tactic in Starfleet Command 3 was to focus on a single section of a ship..... port shields or aft shields. Once that section was done, then u focus on it over and over while you're still capable of it. Now a small agile ship is capable or outmanuvering in close combat, so you would have to use that to your advantage.

Game tactics are the way to go. If you use a Dreadnaut class ship.... your job is to "Tank" in battle, you are our fleets meatshield. If you play an assault craft, you are the muscle, you are to destroy everything you see, you must be manuverable and capable with a smart crew. NPC crews FTW!!!

[TheMasterpiece]

sry but graphics on console blow... ps3 is a cutdown NV 7900 series while the Xbox 360 is somewhere around ATI 2900 series with a bit more features.

Every 8800gt (considered mainstream nowadays) blows that away, and dont get me started about ATI 4xxx series or NV 2xxGTX series.

@ topic

tbh i dont care which ship beats that or this ship, i simply dont want a game where i have to own a specific shipclass cause all others suck... make a good balance for different task and im happy.



Instead of throwin out hardware just look at the graphics. consoles have tremendous graphics nowadays, look at a bioshock or a call of duty 4 or metal gear solid 4 and tell me they "blow". they dont, theyre beautiful

[Interdictor]

The Galaxy class is more powerful than the Defiant class, definately.

The reson the Defiant is so powerful comparitive to size is that is sacrifices a LOT (speed, science capability, cargo, etc) to pack in as much weapons an armor as possible on a nimble little frame.

True, Galaxy classes are Explorers and not dedicated warships. But Explorers, from the Constitution class on up have always been among the most heavily-armed and protected ships the Federation have fielded because they have to be prepared for ANYTHING - including combat.

Galaxy classes are among the most powerful ships in the federation (surpassed only by the Sovereign and Prometheus classes). The Defiant is powerful for it's size, but unless the crew of the Galaxy was incompetent and Sisko himself was commanding the Defiant and weilding the power of the almighty plot device, I think the Galaxy would come out on top.

[USS_Parallax]

While it's maximum warp isn't too fast it's impulse drive is quite mobile and fast. It all comes down to it being hit and if the pilot is good enough.

[Lizzio]

i would like to have the spacestation of DS9 :D some klingon pwnding

[Interdictor]

While it's maximum warp isn't too fast it's impulse drive is quite mobile and fast. It all comes down to it being hit and if the pilot is good enough.

Well, there is a difference between top speed, maneuverability, and acceleration. But yeah - Defiants are nimble at impulse speeds. But considering the training you have to have to be on a Galaxy class, I don't think it would make much of a difference between average Galaxy vs average Defiant.

[Arcturus]

The ship balance is going to come in the form of (Warship, Science vessel, ect...)

[ReynoldsXD]

Dude, I played Starfleet Command 3 for years. I always chose to fly smaller ships (intrepid class or defiant) due to the fact they had manuverability. Tactics are the lifeblood of space sim battles. If your opponent has a bigger ship you have 2 options...

1. Run
2. Engage with a plan

If you choose 1. you are probably smart. If you choose 2. you're probably even smarter because you have a plan. A common tactic in Starfleet Command 3 was to focus on a single section of a ship..... port shields or aft shields. Once that section was done, then u focus on it over and over while you're still capable of it. Now a small agile ship is capable or outmanuvering in close combat, so you would have to use that to your advantage.

Game tactics are the way to go. If you use a Dreadnaut class ship.... your job is to "Tank" in battle, you are our fleets meatshield. If you play an assault craft, you are the muscle, you are to destroy everything you see, you must be manuverable and capable with a smart crew. NPC crews FTW!!!


Well, sfc isnt exactly the real deal in terms of starship combat but for the sake of argument about a good game that was way to underated:


I for example favored the bigger ships over the smaller ones for the simple reason available power.
One just needed to sacrifice some heavy weapons to install the biggest shields and power generation.

Simply keep the speed low and your shild reinforcements could basicly negate all the firepower of smaller vessels.
Your phasers covered every degree of space and since one used the highest non starbase phaserclass you always had something to shoot at the smaller vessels wo would need to get close to use their own weapons for full effect.

Sure ,come and sting me with your hit and run i nyour smal lvessel ,i will capture your planets while youre amusing me with a light show.

Too bad im having problems of runninf sfc3 on my vista machine though. And that sucks because the whole sto frenzy has gotten me in the mood to play all my old st games.
i just pulled out bc and installed kobayashi maru...

[UfcFan78]

Just a question.......IF we were talking about real life Enterprise-D vs Defiant (with or w/o cloak......doesn't matter) aren't there huge "blind" spots where the Galaxy class ,in generel, couldn't fire it's torpedoes all the time even if the Defiant captain was worth a crap?

Regardless, I believe that a Galaxy would beat a Defiant if for the simple fact it can absorb more damage, but I always wondered about the areas anywhere above the saucer, directly above the engines and directly below the ship. Thanks.

[sokolov]

We have got to assume some ships will be more powerful than others. That's kind of a given. But "powerful" is a pretty vague and generic term.

I'd be more interested in seeing that tthe combat model in ST:O is able to capture the various capabilities of each class of ship and make them play out differently tactically and have situational advantages rather than a simple X > Y > Z relationship.

[Gamerfett]

It all comes down to how the ships are Fitted not what size they are for example, the Defiant class is built with the strongest shields that the federation has, and that albative (SP) hull armor because its a ship of war. The Galaxy may have the Defieant out numbered in some ways but its a older and weaker ship compared to the defiant. Now a Refited Galaxy more then likely would destroy a Defiant but I doubt a standered Galaxy would.

[Interdictor]

It all comes down to how the ships are Fitted not what size they are for example, the Defiant class is built with the strongest shields that the federation has, and that albative (SP) hull armor because its a ship of war. The Galaxy may have the Defieant out numbered in some ways but its a older and weaker ship compared to the defiant. Now a Refited Galaxy more then likely would destroy a Defiant but I doubt a standered Galaxy would.

The Defiant is not THAT much older than the Galaxy class. It was designed and rushed into service after starfleet ran into the borg. And yes - it has impressive weapons for a ship of it's size and the strongest shields they could fit in the tiny chassis (not to mention ablative armor to shore up it's defenses). And it performs extremely well against other small ships like Klingon Birds of Prey and Dominion Fighters. It can even hold it's own against medium ships like Excelsiors and Cardassian Galors. But against bigger ships like Warbirds, Galaxies and Vor'Chas it will run into problems. Meanwhile, a ship like a Galaxy class can cripple a Galor with a couple of phaser bursts.

[USS_Parallax]

Defiant-class can WIPE THE FLOOR with the likes of Excelsior. That episode was a combination of Sisko hesitating and BAD WRITING. Seirously BAD WRITING. Why a war specific ship that's like 100 years newer then an Excelsior couldn't win is beyond me.
Plus it was stated that Excelsior and Mirandas faired poorly in the Dominion war basically to the point of being fodder and only used as support. It wouldn't make sense for a Dominion-slaying ship to suck at something that is easily destroyed by a Dominion ship.

Defiant >>>>>>>> Excelsior

As for where it fits exactly. I'd say combat wise it would be upper middle. I'm pretty darned sure it could take most medium sized ships. Possible problems might be Nebula (which I guess counts as a big ship), Akira and Prometheus.

I think some of you are seriously understating it's power. It's not THAT small (as shown in First Contact where it was seriously shunk). It's about half the length of the Saucer Section on the Sovereign (not shuttle sized like in First Contact). The thing has severely limited sciences and is overpacked with weapons and defenses. Basically I would think being as jam packed as it is with all that plus tiny quarters and everything that it's at least as strong as a MODERN (as in no old ships) Federation ship 3-4 times it's size.



Plus we're all generalizing it's abilities here. Maybe Cardassian targeting censors just REALLY suck compared to Federation ones. Meaning they just plain couldn't effectively hit the small, fast and mobile Defiant but still could easily hit the giant lumbering Galaxy. Meaning despite the Galaxy-class being much more able it's not as effective with it's possible slower damage output and it's inability to dodge things. Meaning the Defiant could be able to destroy enemies faster and more since they couldn't hit him compared to the statistically much stronger Galaxy.

[Reinkaos]

Don't forget the a refitted Galaxy might be a match for a Defiant, by 30 years int he future, it would be a refitted Defiant vs a "normal" Galaxy, pretty much.

[USS_Parallax]

I'd say the only fully canon ships that are stronger then the Defiant in starfleet currently are:
Sovereign
Galaxy
And possibly:
Prometheus
Akira
Nebula



Sorry no Intrepid. :P

[manadarken]

Eh, well I think the balance would be what kind of upgrades to your ship you have made. If you have a defensive type of strategy, pour resources into defense. If you have an offensive one FORWARD TORPEDOS!

[USS_Parallax]

This thread more talks about how the ships should be balanced BEFORE any customization happens in the game usually relating to the show. ;)

[sokolov]

Mostly I am disturbed that most people seem to just feel that X beating Y is fine, without regard for situational circumstances and how each ship class has been designed with different capabilities in mind and probably cannot be categorically compared directly.

Even if one invokes something like, a "one-on-one" so-called "fair fight," it'd be ridiculously difficult to suggest what that even means. Does this mean in a gravity well? Open space devoid of any kind of interference/debris normally found in space? In an asteroid field? Do the ships start stationary? Do they start moving? How far are they apart? Beyond both ship's weapon ranges? Within both ship's weapon ranges? Some arbitrary number so that some ships start within weapon's range and others don't? A million questions and a million answers later and you get, "Which ship wins? Well, it depends."

[USS_Parallax]

It's generalizing. I'm sure with Sisko in command he could probably defeat a Galaxy-class ships captained by some no-name.

[manadarken]

Agreed. But I'm speaking... You start out with all the same ships (in a sense) only some factions might get slightly different benefits than others like Klingons getting a slight attack advantage. While Federation gets a defensive and speed advantage (just using these as examples). But.. You start out with a ship and BUILD on that. The idea is you don't GET a different starship but you IMPROVE the one you already have! As you move up in rank and acquire more "cash" you can addon parts making for a bigger and badder vessel. It just depends on what you want to build on.

Defensive: You build on plating of the ship and speed advantages.

Offensive: You build on weapons and evasive maneuvering

Balanced: You keep a controlled build on everything

But these upgrades are from parts and NOT new ships.

[USS_Parallax]

But you do get different ships. Just not as frequently as you can upgrade. :P

I'm pretty sure there will be a huge pool of ships to choose from when you obtain max skills.

[manadarken]

But the idea of "premade" ships just seems so uninteresting. You start out with a ship and you build it from there, that actually takes effort, does it not?

[USS_Parallax]

What are you talking about? Here's what it probably is: You start out with a premade ship. You can upgrade it and everything from there. You can switch ships as you skill up and rank up. You can upgrade that ship and everything. It's like what you're saying except you can switch ships. Looks hopefully wouldn't be very customizable but ship stats, decals, possible full refits and stuff would.

[USS_Parallax]

Just as long as the ship looks aren't very customizable. I don't want to see 1000x different ship classes all the sudden. :P

[manadarken]

Get the idea of ship classes out of your mind and look at it this way. UPGRADING YOUR SHIP "IS" THE SHIP CLASS

Getting a new ship with premade equipment defeats several choices in the game. Everyone would have the same crap and I just don't think that would be cool at all.

[USS_Parallax]

Get the idea of ship classes out of your mind and look at it this way. UPGRADING YOUR SHIP "IS" THE SHIP CLASS

Getting a new ship with premade equipment defeats several choices in the game. Everyone would have the same crap and I just don't think that would be cool at all.

What the heck are you talking about? You actually WANT to start out with a ship which will likely be about the size of a runabout and slowly upgrade it to a Galaxy-class ship? How would that even work? GET HAT IDEA OUT OF YOUR HEAD!

[ussarchangel]

Just because u have a big gun doesn't mean u will win the fight. The Captains skills should play a big part. If u have a moron in command of the Galaxy class, it's done for. That;s true star trek. There have been many times that Picard has been out gunned, but he still prevailed because of his skills and the skills of his crew.:D

[manadarken]

It's possible if you think about it. Trust me.

Let's look at it this way:
You have a small ship, you upgrade it with a new frame which is bigger and badder than the last one. This happens through rank and gathering resources. So yes, slowly upgrading is an awesome way to think about it. It increases the amount of thoughtout strategies and makes it so the players are SOOOO lazy that they are like... Oooooo... In two more ranks I'll get a ship that will rip through everything. That's just plain dumb.

[sniperct]

Doesn't the Defiant have, basically, a huge engine in a compact frame? So it's much more powerful than it's size would indicate.

[Davis]

My shuttle will tear them all up..... "RAWWWWWRR!!!!"

Roka is now Grand Admiral of RAWWWWWRR!

[USS_Parallax]

Let's look at it this way:
You have a small ship, you upgrade it with a new frame which is bigger and badder than the last one. This happens through rank and gathering resources. So yes, slowly upgrading is an awesome way to think about it. It increases the amount of thoughtout strategies and makes it so the players are SOOOO lazy that they are like... Oooooo... In two more ranks I'll get a ship that will rip through everything. That's just plain dumb.

heeeeeeeeck no.

[MajorD]

Okay, people, you want ship stats? I made this battle analysis of DS9 and a few of the movies, for another Star Trek game a while back and was able to derive ship stats from it. However, as is expected, all the firepower is relative to other ships, and the connections are hard to draw, but possible. You'll probably be surprised.

KEY:
survives - appears to be or is functioning without any damage
disabled - appears non-functional, or to have lost control to various degrees
destroyed - appears to have or has blown up

Dominion
Dominion Bug/Fighter
- 2 beams from Galaxy - survived - "The Jem'Hadar"
- 1 beams from Galaxy - survived - "The Jem'Hadar"
- 6 beams from Runabout - survived - "The Jem'Hadar"
- 3 Torpedoes from DS9 - three times - destroyed - Call to Arms
- 1 beam from DS9 - destroyed - Call to Arms
- 3 Volleys from a Bird of Prey - destroyed - Call to Arms
-- First two break a wing off, second two make small explosions, third two blow the ship up.
- 5 Volleys of four shots each from Defiant - destroyed - "Sacrifice of Angels"
- 2 torpedoes from DS9 - destroyed - "Call to Arms"
- 4 volleys from Bird of Prey - disabled - "Tears of the Prophets"
-- #1-3 volleys - explosion
-- #4 volley - possibly ineffective
- 1 beam from DS9 - glancing - disabled - "Call to Arms"
-- Second shot - destroyed
- 2 volleys from Defiant - destroyed - "The Die is Cast"
- 4 volleys from Defiant - 2 additional volleys after major explosion - destroyed - "The Die is Cast"
- 4 volleys from Defiant - destroyed - "The Die is Cast"
- 1 beam from Miranda - survives - "The Die is Cast"
- 3 volleys from Bird of Prey - destroyed - "Favor the Bold"
- 4 volleys from Defiant - destroyed - "Favor the Bold"
- 6 Quantum Torpedoes from Defiant - destroyed - First volley broke wing off, second volley causes two small explosions, third volley blew the ship up - "Valiant"
- 1 torpedo warhead on a spatial torpedo fired from Defiant - destroyed - "Starship Down"

Federation
Defiant Class "Escort"
- 13 volleys of four shots each in 3.25 seconds - Longest unbroken duration of fire - "The Die is Cast"

- 1 beam Dom Fighter - All Dom ships in battle scene are Dom Fighters, making otherwise unknown attacks' origins known - survives - "The Die is Cast"
-- Unknown: "Shields at 80%"
- 9 beams Dom Fighter - survives - "The Die is Cast" - continued
-- If that's the case, then the ship should have -100% shields.
- 8 beams from Dominion Fighter - survives - "A Call to Arms"
- 23 torpedoes from Breen warship to bare hull - destroyed - "The Changing Face of Evil"
-- Disabled by Breen energy dissipater on first shot - unknown number of conventional shots to disable Defiant.

- "The Search", take 1
- 50 misc. from Dominion Fighters - survived - The Search
-- 1 beam from Dominion Fighters with shields down - there were only Dominion fighters in the scene so all attacks came from them - The Search
-- 16 beams from Dominion Fighters - there were only Dominion fighters in the scene so all attacks came from them - The Search
-- 17 beams from Dominion Fighters - lost main power=shields down - The Search
-- 6 beams from Dominion Fighters - Inertial Dampeners down, helm control failing - The Search
-- 10 beams from Dominion Fighters - The Search
-- The Search - Battle Conclusion
--- 33 Dom Fighter beams to shields
--- 17 Dom Fighter beams to hull
--- survived

- "The Search", take 2
6 beams from Dominion Fighters
10 beams possible hits or misses
14 beams
16 beams (Kira: We've lost main power.)
10 beams (Romulan Woman: Main Power is offline. Shields have collapsed.)
12 beams
- Conclusion
-- 36-46-56(Main power down/shields down)
-- 12-22 hits to the hull
-- 58-68 hits in total from Dominion Fighters
--- disabled (Odo: The last time I saw the Defiant, she was dead in [space].)

"Defiant" - will be organized better later. Has some Keldon info.
- (Unknown: Took six hits on the port shields. There's been some minor damage to the outer hull but all systems are operational.) - In reference to shots taken by Cardassian ships, probably Galor Class.
- (Thomas Riker: With this ship, it will be a sure fight, I promise you that.) In reference to the 3 Keldon Class ships ahead of him but not the ten stated, by Kira, to be behind him.
- 7 main beams from a Keldon - (Unknown: We've been hit on our starboard shield.)(Unknown: Shields holding.)
- (Thomas Riker: Quantum Torpedoes, full spread. Fire.) 4 quantum torpedoes fired, the first two explode in proximity, the second two hit the tail and appear to disable power and maneuvering. (Helmswoman: Their defense systems are off line and they lost main power.)
- (Three more cruisers just arrived in the Orian system. That makes five ships ahead and ten behind.) Riker still wanted to fight but he realized it would just get his crew killed to fight that many ships.

- 1 volley from BoP - had no previous damage - (Dax: Shields are holding) - survives - "The Way of the Warrior"
- 1 torpedo from BoP - survives - "The Way of the Warrior"
- 4 unknown from BoP - survives (Worf: Sir, restricting our fire to their engines has not proven effective. Sisko: Very well, target at your descretion.) - "The Way of the Warrior"
- 1 beam from bow of Vor'Cha - survives - "The Way of the Warrior"
- 1 unknown from unknown, probably bow of Vor'Cha - survives - "The Way of the Warrior"
- 3 beam from bow of Vor'Cha - survives - "The Way of the Warrior"
- 1 unknown from unknown, probably bow of Vor'Cha - (Dax: You were right Mr. Worf, the modulated tractor beam is deflecting some of the Klingon disruptor fire. Worf: Disruptor's effectiveness at 50%.) This seems to refer specifically to aiming ability, not weapon strength. After this shot, the shields have been dropped to beam in Cardassians - survives - "The Way of the Warrior"
- 1 unknown from unknown, probably bow of Vor'Cha - (Dax: Ablative armor holding. Worf: Klingon ships are closing, armor on the port side is losing integrity.) - survives - "The Way of the Warrior"
- 4 unknown from unknown - (Worf: Klingon have closed to point blank range.)(Dax: Ablative armor has failed.) - survives - "The Way of the Warrior"
- 1 unknown from unknown - (Sisko: Raise Shields) *boom* (Worf: Shields up) Unknown if shields went up just as or just after the weapon hit - survives - "The Way of the Warrior"
- 4 beam from bow of Vor'Cha - survives - "The Way of the Warrior"

- 7 misc. from Cardassian Defense Station - survived - "Tears of the Prophets"
-- 2 beams from Cardassian Defense Station
-- 5 torpedoes from Cardassian Defense Station

- 12 pulses from Dominion Battleship - disabled - "Valiant"
-- exploded soon after crew escaped in life pods

- (Nog: Shields at 30%.) - "Favor the Bold"
- 6 beams from Dominion Fighter - survives - "Favor the Bold"
- 1 beams from Dominion Fighter, off screen - (Nog: Shields down to 20%) - "Favor the Bold"
-- That's seven beams to drop 10% off the Defiant's shields. Going by this alone, it should take 70 Dominoin Fighter beam shots to down the Defiant's shields from 100%.
-- The Defiant was acting as a decoy throughout.

- 1 beam from Dom Fighters - survived - "starship Down"
- 4 beams from Dom Fighters - (Worf: Shields at 60%) They were also in a gas giant. - survived - "starship Down"
- 10 beam from Dom Fighters - survived - "starship Down"
-- 5 shots in 6 seconds.
-- 3 second dely then 2 shots in 2 seconds
-- 2 second delay then 3 shots.

Federation Fighter
- 1 full shot from Galor secondary weapon - destroyed - "Sacrifice of Angels"
- 1 half shot from Galor secondary weapon - survives - "Sacrifice of Angels"
-- second half shot - destroyed
- 1 pulse/torpedo from Dominion Cruiser - destroyed - "Sacrifice of Angels"

Runabout
- 5 pulses from Dominion Fighter - survived - "The Jem'Hadar"
- 3 beams from Dominion Fighter - survived - "In Purgatory's Shadow"
- 2 beams from Dominion Fighter - destroyed - "The Ship"
-- #1 beam dropped shields, #2 destroyed the runabout.

Miranda Class
- 2 beams from Galor Main Weapon - possibly disabled - "The Die is Cast"
- 14 beams from Cardassian Defense Station - disabled - "Tears of the Prophets"
-- #1-8 beams from Cardassian Defense Station - disabled
-- #9-14 beams from Cardassian Defense Station - appear to do no additional damage but sound as if they're doing damage

Galaxy Class
- 7 shots from D'Deridex in 6 seconds, shields down by 70% - survived - "Tin Man"
-- 6 shots in 4.5 seconds and a 7th one second later.
- 6 misc. from Cardassian Defense Station - survived - "Tears of the Prophets"
-- 3 torpedoes from Cardassian Defense Station - survived
-- 3 beams from Cardassian Defense Station - survived

- 10 torps and 11 pulses from Bird of Prey to hull- survives except for eventual, although not rapidly occurring, warpcore breach. - Star Trek: Generations

Sovereign Class
Nemesis Battle - It should be noted that Shinzon did not want the Enterprise-E, E-E, destroyed and was targeting specific systems and spreading damage out, rather than concentrating it on one spot, as he did with the two Romulan ships.
11 pulses (Shinzon: Target their shields and weapons, I don't want them destroyed)
21 pulses
4 pulses (Riker: Get the Shields online Geoardi.)(Shinzon: I can clearly destroy you at any time.)
7 torps
5 pulse (Data: Aft Shields down to 40%)(Riker: Keep our bow on the Skimitar, auxilery power to shields.)
7 pulses
2 torpedoes (Data: We're losing structural integrity on decks 12-17, sections 4-10.)
4 misc
3 torps (Shinzon: Prepare a boarding party, bring me, Picard! Target all shield coordinates, Beta Three. All disruptors, FIRE!)
4 pulse Might have hit
2 torps Might have hit
2 pulses
2 torps, 1 misc (Data: Captain, we've lost ventral shielding on deck 29.)
8 misc
4 torpedoes (Bridge gets a nice new window) (Torpedoes depleted and phasers at 4%.)

[curtst]

Previous Star Trek games have left me saying "What?" to Ship balance. Obviously the show doesn't help much since it does crazy stuff like show the Defiant rip through a few dozen Cardassian and Dominion ships while making me doubt the manliness of the Galaxy-class ships.

Defiant vs Galaxy:
Most games have the Defiant as a sort of powerful, agile scoutish type ship with little armor or shields which seems to go against the show. However I'd be pretty annoyed if the Defiant could easily destroy a Galaxy ship. In my mind a Galaxy-class ship could probably take out a Defiant-class ship but would take pretty decent damage from the battle. However I've talked to people who swear on their mom's grave that a Defiant would eat up a Galaxy based on what the show shows (which is an OP'd Defiant and the Enterprise getting almost owned several times by single captial ships).

Intrepid vs Galaxy:
Another issue. I like to think of the Intrepid as significantly weaker than a Galaxy-class ship. Again, some trekkers demand that the Intrepid-class is almost equal if not stronger. This is a crazy IMO. It's faster and more mobile and that's about it.

Ship balance! I hope it is good and makes sense. :P

I am lazy and I am not going to read all the posts :D Hey at least I am honest.

I think the game needs to really work hard on balancing out ships.

I think a fight between a galaxy class ship and a defiant class would be EPIC! The defiant does have more powerful weapons. But the galaxy has stronger shields and hull, I could see a galaxy class ship being the tank in the game. The defiant is also much much more maneuverable than the galaxy.

So it would be a great fight.

Intrepid I think is a bit more balanced weapon and shield wise compared to the defiant. However its weapons and shields not quite as strong has the galaxy, but again, the intrepid is more maneuverable than the galaxy.

[MajorD]

Akira Class
- 4 misc. from Cardassian Defense Station - destroyed - "Tears of the Prophets"
-- had previous damage similar to the Galaxy's torpedo damage
-- 2 torpedoes from Cardassian Defense Station
-- 2 beams from Cardassian Defense Station
- 5 beams from Cardassian Defense Station - disabled/destroyed - "Tears of the Prophets"

Excelsior
- 3 misc. from misc. - disabled - "Tears of the Prophets"
-- 2 beam from Cardassian Defense Station
-- 1 hull piece from destroyed Akira - this appears to be what actually disabled the ship
- 1 beam from Cardassian Defense Station - disabled - "Tears of the Prophets"

Shuttle from ST: Insurrection
4 single shots from mission scout (Data's ship)
3 double shots from mission scout
Fired Tachyon Burst at Data's ship to reset shield harmonics and beam him out but Data activated a transporter inhibitor.
7 off screen shots from mission scout
-- survived

Cardassians
Galor Class Cruiser/Destroyer (Before the Dominion were a full threat, the Galor was called a cruiser. After the Dominion came it was called a destroyer.)
- Secondary Weapon 1 s duration - "Sacrifice of Angels"

- One volley of torpedoes (# of torpedoes unknown) from the U.S.S Phoenix (Nebula Class) - destroyed - "The Wounded"
- 9 shots from five Federation Fighters - disabled - "Sacrifice of Angels"
- 3.8 seconds of continuous fire from 2 Galaxy Class ship, maintaining at most two beams between them for most of the duration - twice only one beam is firing briefly - disabled - "Sacrifice of Angels"
- 12 BoP(?) shots and a Klingon torpedo - destroyed - "Sacrifice of Angels"
- 2 torpedoes from DS9 - survives - "Call to Arms"
- 1 torpedo from DS9 in various instances - survives - "Call to Arms"
- 6 vollies from BoP - had previous damage and before we see these shots Gul Dukat says [Shields are failing] - survives - "The Way of the Warrior"
- 6 vollies from BoP - survives - "The Way of the Warrior"
- 2 unknown from BoP - survives (Dukat: Our engines are gone, our shields are down, and we have no weapons to speak of.) - "The Way of the Warrior"
-- That's 12 to 14 shots take down their remaining shields.
- [Dax: Dukat's ship is under fire, I don't know how much longer they can hold out.] - survives - "The Way of the Warrior"
- 9 volleys from Bird of Prey in roughly 3 seconds - survives - "The Way of the Warrior"
- Last we see the particular Galor in "The Way of the Warrior" it has somewhat large sparking fires and without being fired on blows up just as the Defiant leaves.

Keldon Class Cruiser
- 3 beams from Dominion Fighter - destroyed - "The Die is Cast"

- 13-15 volleys from Defiant in 3 seconds - only 3 volleys at the very end appear to actually hit - The Keldon being a cruiser is mentioned at least once in the episode. - (Unknown: Direct hit on the Cruiser's port nacelle. Their shields down by 30%.), there is a significant explosion on the last hit that causes the Keldon to veer out of control. - "Defiant"
-- Each volley did 10% damage to the shields, assuming it was only 3 volleys that hit.
- (Thomas Riker: Quantum Torpedoes, full spread. Fire.) 4 quantum torpedoes fired, the first two explode in proximity, under the ship, knocking it around a bit. The second two hit the tail and knock the ship hard. (Helmswoman: Their defense systems are off line and they lost main power.)
-- Knocking main power out is lucky, then again they might have knocked the shields out and get to power that way but if we take it as all equal, then the Quantum torpedoes were 2.5X stronger than the Defiant's phaser volleys. That doesn't even take into account that the first hit was in proximity by several tens of meters, which would greatly reduce its damage.
- (Gul Dukat: Those are faster than any Keldon Class ships I've ever seen) In reference to the Obsidian Order ships at warp chasing the Defiant.

Hideki Class Patrol Vessel
- 3 Volleys of four shots each from Defiant - destroyed - "Sacrifice of Angels"
- 2 Volleys of four shots each from Defiant - disabled - "Sacrifice of Angels"
- 1 beam from DS9 - glancing blow - disabled - "Call to Arms"

Cardassian Defense Station
Shields Down
- 6 Quantum Torpedoes - destroyed - Tears of the Prophets
- 2 phaser beams from Excelsior - destroyed - Tears of the Prophets
- 2 phaser beams from unknown - survived - Tears of the Prophets
- 7 shots misc. and various - Destroyed - Tears of the Prophets
-- 6 Volleys from Defiant
-- 1 Romulan Torpedo
- 9 green torpedoes (Romulan) - explosion - disabled or destroyed - Tears of the Prophets
- 4 green torpedoes (Romulan) - survived - Tears of the Prophets
Shields Dropped
- 2 beams from Excelsior Class - destroyed - Tears of the Prophets
-- #1 beam seems to hit a shield
-- #2 beam seems to hit bare hull as the station's systems shutdown from sabotage
- 3 torpedoes from Galaxy Class - destroyed - Tears of the Prophets


Klingons
Neg'Var
- 1 torpedo from DS9 - survived - Way of the Warrior

Vor'Cha Class Attack Cruiser
Three quarters of a second shot with tenth to twentieth of a second delay before next shot. Two shots in a row seen. - Way of the Warrior

- 2 torpedo from DS9 - destroyed - Way of the Warrior
-- It can be assumed off screen damage lead to this event
- Unknown by unknown from Cardassian Defense Station - disabled/destroyed - Tears of the Prophets

- 1 torpedo from DS9 - survived - Way of the Warrior
- 1 torpedo from DS9 - survived - Way of the Warrior
- 5 torpedo from Cardassian Defense Station - survived - Tears of the Prophets

K'Tinga
Half second beam shot with half second delay before next shot. Or tenth second shot with tenth second delay, three in a row. Two half second shots seen in a row. - Way of the Warrior

- 5 torpedo from DS9 - destroyed - Way of the Warrior
- 1 bow, 1 port nacelle, 3 ventral starboard main hull. The first causes an explosion the size of the bow hull, the second causes none, the third and fourth causes explosions as large as the aft hull, and the fifth completely passes through the hull without exploding.

Bird of Prey
- 2 volleys of two bolts each from other Bird of Prey to presumably unshielded hull - destroyed - Apocalypse Rising
- 1 beam from DS9 - destroyed - Way of the Warrior
-- Kira: "Eight Klingon ships destroyed, several heavily damaged."
- 1 torpedoes from Cardassian Defense Station - destroyed - Tears of the Prophets
- 3 torpedoes from Cardassian Defense Station - disabled - Tears of the Prophets
- 4 volleys from Defiant - Destroyed - "The Way of the Warrior"
- 5 volleys from Defiant - Survives - "The Way of the Warrior"
- 1 torpedo from Ds9 - destroyed - Way of the Warrior
- 1 torpedo from Ds9 - destroyed - Way of the Warrior

Romulans
D'Deridex
- 17 beams from Dominion Fighters - disabled - The Die is Cast
- 5 shots misc. from Cardassian Defense Station - survived - Tears of the Prophets
-- 2 torpedoes from Cardassian Defense Station
-- 3 beams from Cardassian Defense Station
- 4 beams from Cardassian Defense Station - inconclusive - Tears of the Phrophets
-- the beams appeared to do no additional damage
-- unmoving and non-firing throughout entire frame - disabled previous to scene start
-- had previous damage similar to, but not the same as, the previous D'Deridex - they are different ships

Valdore
Nemesis Battle (Two Valdore present, one Green - the Valdore - one Brown - unknown name.)
1 misc. hit Green
4 pulses Green
2 Brown
5 Brown
2 Brown
7 pulses (Wing Breaks on Brown Warbird - disabled - wing hits Enterprise-E on port edge of saucer and nose of port nacelle - Minor computer disruption and Data: Forward Shields down to 10%)
17 torpedoes (to ventral center of hull of green Valdore (actual Valdore) - disabled

Brown took 17 hits
Green took 22 hits

Scimitar - I wanted to put these stats under the Sovereign but placing it here fits with the rest of the organization better.
Nemesis Battle
Sovereign, Shots Fired

1:11:21
Geordie: Warp Drive disabled with first shot, We only have Impulse, captain.

1:12:22 - Phaser fire engaged
22 beams
1:12:26 - Phaser fire disengaged

- 3 torpedoes - from top aft of saucer
- 3 torpedoes - from aft

1:13:02 - Phaser fire engaged
9 beams
1:13:09 - Phaser fire disengaged

1:13:10 - Battle Interlude
- no fighting
1:17:46 - Battle Restarts

1:17:57 Phaser fire engaged
5 beams
1:18:04 Phaser fire disengaged

1:18:16 Phaser fire engaged
5 beams
1:18:19 Phaser fire disengaged

- 10 torpedoes

1:18:48 Phaser fire engaged
3 beams
1:18:50 Phaser fire disengaged

1:19:40 Valdore fires
-21 pulses
1:19:58 Valodre stops firing

1:22:21
- 6 Quantum torpedoes
1:22:28

1:22:33
Picard: Fire at will.
phasers - I believe phaser fire continued from this point without interuption until the end of the battle.
- 3 Q torps
- 3 torps

1:23:00
- 3 torps
- 2 torps

1:26:20 - Ship to Ship battle definitely over
Data: We've exausted our compliment of photon torpedoes. Phasers are down to 4%, sir.


P = Phaser fire
nP = no Phaser fire

4s P - 22, 5.5 P/s
26s nP
7s P - 9, 1.28 P/s
4:26s nP - no fighting
7s P - 5, .71 P/s
12s nP
3s P - 5, 1.66 P/s
29s nP
2s P - 3, 1.5 P/s
3:43s nP
3:47 P - 292.3, 1.29 P/s

average P/s is 1.29 P/s

Max P 7 s
average P 4.6 s
Max nP 29 s
average nP is 22.3 s

P 5 s
nP 20 s


Breen
Breen Ship
4 quantum torpedoes from Defiant - destroyed - The Changing Face of Evil
8 volleys of four bolts each from Defiant - hull damaged but survived - The Changing Face of Evil

[Space_Cadet]

See now everyone is gonna want to fly a Borg Cube cause it "p0wns." I'd rather a resourceful and skilled captain in an Intrepid class.

[ExAstris]

Mostly I am disturbed that most people seem to just feel that X beating Y is fine, without regard for situational circumstances and how each ship class has been designed with different capabilities in mind and probably cannot be categorically compared directly.

Even if one invokes something like, a "one-on-one" so-called "fair fight," it'd be ridiculously difficult to suggest what that even means. Does this mean in a gravity well? Open space devoid of any kind of interference/debris normally found in space? In an asteroid field? Do the ships start stationary? Do they start moving? How far are they apart? Beyond both ship's weapon ranges? Within both ship's weapon ranges? Some arbitrary number so that some ships start within weapon's range and others don't? A million questions and a million answers later and you get, "Which ship wins? Well, it depends."



Good call. The crippled enterprise is on fair ground with the reliant in the mutara nebula, neturon specced megathrons are worthless outside 15km, and the defiant's maneuverability in comparison to its opponent's capability to hit it can utterly tip the scales.

[huntmilo1995]

yah your right about the balance but a intrepid could beat a galxy class depending on the tech on the ship

[USS_Parallax]

yah your right about the balance but a intrepid could beat a galxy class depending on the tech on the ship

No way. Intrepid is medium class all the way. Not even the highest medium.

[mezlabor]

No way. Intrepid is medium class all the way. Not even the highest medium.

So? Intrepids pack the same weapon systems a galaxy does. Their type 10 phasers deal just as much damage as a Galaxies. They also have tricobalt torpedos. Not saying an intrepid would def win but in Trek bigger isnt always better.

[Deltab]

So? Intrepids pack the same weapon systems a galaxy does. Their type 10 phasers deal just as much damage as a Galaxies. They also have tricobalt torpedos. Not saying an intrepid would def win but in Trek bigger isnt always better.

No. Intrepids can put out the same damage, BUT the Galaxy class has more power to put out. What I mean by this is if you have a 5" pipe, they both can move the same amount of water. However, the Galaxy class has more water.

[USS_Parallax]

They have the same type of phaser but not the same strength. The Galaxy has the longest phaser line (forgot exactly what it was called) in all of starfleet besides matching the Nebula. Heck the Galaxy-class had stronger phaser arrays then even the Enterprise-E because the phaser lines weren't as long until it's phasers were upgraded to a new type.

Generally speaking a phaser array's maximum potential = a combination of phaser type, power input and the length of those lines you see.

Voyager's are as strong as a Galaxy's. Voyager might be able to fire torpedoes more rapidly but I highly doubt that would make up for the Galaxy's still much superior hull and shields (not to mention phasers).

[mezlabor]

No. Intrepids can put out the same damage, BUT the Galaxy class has more power to put out. What I mean by this is if you have a 5" pipe, they both can move the same amount of water. However, the Galaxy class has more water.

that could be true. I havent read the tech manuals for the intrepid to see what the maxium power output was. I figured snce they both had type 10 phasers the phasers would be farily equal.

With that said. In the Videogame. Bigger ships should be more powerful.

[mezlabor]

They have the same type of phaser but not the same strength. The Galaxy has the longest phaser line (forgot exactly what it was called) in all of starfleet besides matching the Nebula. Heck the Galaxy-class had stronger phaser arrays then even the Enterprise-E because the phaser lines weren't as long until it's phasers were upgraded to a new type.

Generally speaking a phaser array's maximum potential = a combination of phaser type, power input and the length of those lines you see.

Voyager's are as strong as a Galaxy's. Voyager might be able to fire torpedoes more rapidly but I highly doubt that would make up for the Galaxy's still much superior hull and shields (not to mention phasers).

the enterprise e had type 12 phasers tho. So its kinda hard to compare them I think. Either way I agree that as far as the Video game is concerned a galaxy should be more powerful then a defiant. Arguing which would win in the show to me is like arguing over whether the enterpise or an imperial star destroyer would win. Theres no Real data to draw a definitive conclusion. Just fiction

[USS_Parallax]

Outside of the movies (novels or something... I don't remember where it came from) the Enterprise had type 10 for a short while before it was upgrade. But that's kind of outside the point. There's still just 3 factors to phaser power in the Federation. Defiant-class excluded. Galaxy beats Voyager on two of those 3 factors, power input and length.

[Sinclair]

I'm hoping for ship balance somewhat akin to what we see in EVE or Pirates of the Burning Sea.

I would like to see a system where all ships are viable, except for the most basic noob ship.

Larger ships may have more firepower and shield capacity, but smaller ships could be faster and have a much better turning radius and turning rate. Similarly ships equiped as science vessles may have better scanning or electronic jamming capability, while ships armed only for war could be weaker at auxiiary roles like that.

I think it would be pretty dull if the purpose of the whole game was for everyone to level up into the same starship. After a few months, there would be a lack of variety in our scenery. Seeing other types of starships flying around has got to be a huge draw of the game for many of us captains, and I'm hoping the developers can maximize the ongoing utility of a vast majority of ships.

[Deltab]

the enterprise e had type 12 phasers tho. So its kinda hard to compare them I think. Either way I agree that as far as the Video game is concerned a galaxy should be more powerful then a defiant. Arguing which would win in the show to me is like arguing over whether the enterpise or an imperial star destroyer would win. Theres no Real data to draw a definitive conclusion. Just fiction

This is key for what we think of cannon balanace. After all how many times do we see a Bird of Prey get 1 shot by the Enterprise D? Then we see the same class of ship destroy other ships with ease.

Its like in star wars when the storm troopers are the elite and they can kill things without effort and they rarely miss. I believe that was stated in the classic star wars. Only what 10 mins later the same storm troopers couldn't hit look or leia 10 feet infront of them.

The defiant was the same way. Also there were times that these 1shotable bird of prey class ships teamed up with the Enterprise against an equal number of warbirds. Because of the 2 klingon ships the warbirds backed down. Why would they do that if they could 1 shot them?

The TV and movies don't care about balance, but the game sure has to

[mezlabor]

This is key for what we think of cannon balanace. After all how many times do we see a Bird of Prey get 1 shot by the Enterprise D? Then we see the same class of ship destroy other ships with ease.

Its like in star wars when the storm troopers are the elite and they can kill things without effort and they rarely miss. I believe that was stated in the classic star wars. Only what 10 mins later the same storm troopers couldn't hit look or leia 10 feet infront of them.

The defiant was the same way. Also there were times that these 1shotable bird of prey class ships teamed up with the Enterprise against an equal number of warbirds. Because of the 2 klingon ships the warbirds backed down. Why would they do that if they could 1 shot them?

The TV and movies don't care about balance, but the game sure has to
"these blast points too precise for sandpeople only Imperial Stormtroopers are that accurate"

It was 3 birds of prey in that episode but yea the ship balance in the shows is based solely off of writers discretion. If the writer decided that day a bird of prey was a match for the Enterprise it was and if later on the enterprise was the **** and could one shot BoP then they did.

[Deltab]

"these blast points too precise for sandpeople only Imperial Stormtroopers are that accurate"

It was 3 birds of prey in that episode but yea the ship balance in the shows is based solely off of writers discretion. If the writer decided that day a bird of prey was a match for the Enterprise it was and if later on the enterprise was the **** and could one shot BoP then they did.

I’m going to dub it Heroitis

Heroitis: Caused when coming in contact with a main character of a story and or movie.
Symptoms:
loss of elite status
Ability to be one shot
Ability to be unable to hit or do damage to its target
Etc

Lets not have Heroitis when designing ships AND npcs. It would be amazing to have ships that would be a hard fight, not just take forever to kill. I’m not talking about the borg, I’m talking most NPC ships that players have to fight. It would be nice to win the fight and go “wow.. I can’t believe I won that”

[indigowhale345]

Well I'm sure this has been posted, but I don't have enough tacos to read the whole thread.

Theres 1001 ways to balance ships for this game, and I'm sure Cryptic is conscious of this, and its most likely they want to have a robust balance for ships and whatever upgrades and skills will augment their abilities.

But, the bottom line is really this.. Ship balance in this game will be successful when say a year or two into the game, theres all the different classes of ships still flying out there, and in pretty good numbers for each class. When people can pick a ship class they choose, to suit their style of play, from combat, to exploration, to a mix, and its usually different from the person next to them.

It will be a failure if every time people want to fight PVE, or PVP they are all trying to get the same class of ship, or the explorers all go after a certain class of ship, and the majority of ship classes are totally unused or simply stepping stones to get to two or three different classes.

So, while there will likely be combat ships and exploration ships and jack of all trades, and among them there should probably be several top of the line ships in every category, the ability to upgrade ships enough that any ship can be quite capable, and very nearly meet the performance of the latest, top of the line ship is probably what will ultimately be necessary to keep every ship class alive and keep the diversity.

[MajorD]

Voyager has Type 9 phaser arrays (this was stated in the show), Enterprise-D has Type 10 (I'm pretty sure that was stated in its show too), The Enterprise-E has unknown (it's never been said in the movies.) The Enterprise-D can fire five torpedoes forward in a single burst (seen multiple times), and three in a burst aftward(also seen). It can also fire consecutively, about five torpedoes in a second, with a half second delay before firing again. When Voyager fires a 'full spread', it fires only three torpedoes, forward or aftward, consecutively, over the course of about a second. So, the Intrepid has less torpedo firepower because it fires fewer torpedoes per spread and fires more slowly. It's also a safe assumption that that lower numbered phaser types are weaker, because of Type 1-3, being the cricket, handphaser, and rifle. Type 4 is for shuttles, and Type 8 goes on small ships, like the ones used by the Maquis, and on the Excelsior class. All of that is canon, you can check that phaser stuff at http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Main_Page

The fact of the matter is, there is just about nothing on the actual firepower, and defensive power of either vessel. It simply stands to reason, through sheer size, that the Galaxy class beats the Intrepid, as that is generally the rule of thumb (bigger ships win, unless outnumbered). The Defiant goes against that, except it's been stated, in the show, that it goes against that and there are tons of examples to prove how strong it is, even without the statement, many of which I just posted.
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=146611&postcount=146
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=146616&postcount=148

I'm hoping for ship balance somewhat akin to what we see in EVE or Pirates of the Burning Sea.

I would like to see a system where all ships are viable, except for the most basic noob ship.

Larger ships may have more firepower and shield capacity, but smaller ships could be faster and have a much better turning radius and turning rate. Similarly ships equiped as science vessles may have better scanning or electronic jamming capability, while ships armed only for war could be weaker at auxiiary roles like that.

I think it would be pretty dull if the purpose of the whole game was for everyone to level up into the same starship. After a few months, there would be a lack of variety in our scenery. Seeing other types of starships flying around has got to be a huge draw of the game for many of us captains, and I'm hoping the developers can maximize the ongoing utility of a vast majority of ships.
In City of Heroes, you simply don't fight enemies that are more than five levels above you, unless you have a group, and even then it's dangerous and hard, but fun. Also, you don't get experience points for killing anything five levels below yourself. You can team up with a single character as a sidekick and that boosts the lower guy to your level, so you can both fight at the higher level, and it lets lower level characters experience higher levels of combat sooner. Cryptic won't have to balance every ship to each other, which is an unrealistic approach. Making it so a Runabout can destroy a Galaxy class starship makes no sense.

They'll probably make a squadron system, like the sidekick system, but for more than one lower level player, unless they feel the single sidekick method is adequate.
This is key for what we think of cannon balanace. After all how many times do we see a Bird of Prey get 1 shot by the Enterprise D? Then we see the same class of ship destroy other ships with ease. .

The defiant was the same way. Also there were times that these 1shotable bird of prey class ships teamed up with the Enterprise against an equal number of warbirds. Because of the 2 klingon ships the warbirds backed down. Why would they do that if they could 1 shot them?

The TV and movies don't care about balance, but the game sure has to
TNG is horrible about the Bird of Prey, it might as well be anywhere from 13 meters long to 1013 meters long, it's probably multiple vessels that all look the same, but DS9 is pretty consistent throughout, at nearly 100 m long, if I recall correctly. They have roughly, or slightly higher, firepower than the Defiant but are as structurally weak as the Dominion Fighter/Jem'Hadar Bug/Attack Ship.

As for the Defiant's strength, which is pretty consistent for the most part, you can read through the battle facts I collected and linked to above.

[sniperct]

TNG is horrible about the Bird of Prey, it might as well be anywhere from 13 meters long to 1013 meters long, it's probably multiple vessels that all look the same, but DS9 is pretty consistent throughout, at nearly 100 m long, if I recall correctly. They have roughly, or slightly higher, firepower than the Defiant but are as structurally weak as the Dominion Fighter/Jem'Hadar Bug/Attack Ship.

As for the Defiant's strength, which is pretty consistent for the most part, you can read through the battle facts I collected and linked to above.

That one is easy to explain ;) There are two types of BoPs. One smaller, and one larger.

B'rel Class = ~157m long
K'Vort Class = ~678m long

*edit* According to Memory Alpha there was also a "D12" class, but no length is given for it. It was retired in the 2350s, and was probably the one from the ToS movies (it was the type flown by the Duras sisters in Generations).

[MajorD]

That one is easy to explain ;) There are two types of BoPs. One smaller, and one larger.

B'rel Class = ~157m long
K'Vort Class = ~678m long

*edit* According to Memory Alpha there was also a "D12" class, but no length is given for it. It was retired in the 2350s, and was probably the one from the ToS movies (it was the type flown by the Duras sisters in Generations).

Ex Astris' Bird of Prey Size Paradox (http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/bop-size.htm) page is the best on that topic. They measured five distinct sizes.:p

[mezlabor]

I guess it would just be easiest to assume theres 2. the b'rel a frigate and the k'vort a cruiser.

[Ensign.Ricky]

This question is a bit faulty. These ships are different classes so one ship is better in particular areas than then the other ship. A defiant class ship probably has better mobility and heavier weapons but is low in shielding and is short range. A Galaxy class role is more all around duties and has better sensors, stronger shields and is meant for long distance. Each ship has its strengths and at the end of the day which is better really comes down to which captain knows the ship better. The Enterprise D has some of the strongest shields in the fleet if the Defiant followed it close to a Sun's carona I'm sure it would fold as easily as that Borg ship. Same goes for the defiant. If the captain can keep the Galaxy class ship imobile. I'm sure it could fly circles around it and slowly pick it apart. It really depends on how the ship is used and again who is in the big chair calling the shots.

[Boone]

An interesting discussion.

The Problem as pointed out is that the series/movies are not always consistent with the capabilities of a particular ship class. This almost everyone agrees upon.

The inconsistencies can be explained though if we look at the construction of naval vessels of today. For example, though similar all Nimitz class carriers are different. They've been built over the span of three decades. The newer ones are more advanced than the older ones. Each one is slightly larger than the last one as well. There are other differences but to go into specifics would break security.

This same level of differences would apply in Star Trek I think. We are talking ships that were in some cases built over a century. It is natural for them to vary.

The first thing to look at is the initial ship of a run. The Defiant is touted a lot. The Defiant was a prototype. It had heavier armament and armor than those that were eventually produced. Why is that? Probably budget cuts. It was decided the original was just to costly to reproduce so they scaled down the later production versions. This explains why the Defiant was more powerful than ships of its class.

Now lets look at the Enterprise-D. This was the flagship of the Federation for many years. Being the flag ship it is obvious that it would have additional improvements beyond a normal Galaxy Class vessel. This would include heavier weapons, shielding and armor. Given the hostile nature of many of the Federations neighbors they would need a very sturdy flagship. Thus this could explain why the Enterprise seems more powerful than other Galaxy class, the reason is because it was.

Voyager also could not be considered a typical Intrepid class ship. During its time in the Delta Quadrant it scavenged technology from other civilizations, including the Borg. These were incorporated into the ship wherever possible. Thus Voyager is more powerful than a typical Intrepid class ship.

Ships oftentimes are called upon to test new prototypes and new systems. New ships are cheaper to build with such modifications than to take a ship out of service and refit them. Still sometimes existing ships are used to test such modifications. This could well explain why Enterprise and Defiant are not always consistent. Voyager's lack of consistance could be the lack of resupply.

These different classes within a class have been alluded to from time to time. In the old FASA game they had subclasses of each class. For example you had the Constitution, Bohomme Richard, and Enterprise classes that all were built on the same hull. FASA class system was oversimplified though.

I think that might be the gist of the problem with evaluating a ship's performance. We incorrectly think of the hull class as the ship class.

What we call the Constitution class for example, is really a hull, not necessarily a class.

For example if you use SFB (I know not necessarily a canon souce) to explain the Constitution Class initial run (The Names used in SFB differ from names in other sources, since I'm using SFB as example I'm using the registry and names it used )

NCC 1700 USS Constitution (CA)
NCC 1701 USS Enterprise (CA)
NCC 1702 USS Farragut (CA), later refitted to NCC 1960 USS Farragut (CVS)
NCC 1703 USS Lexington (CC)
NCC 1704 USS Yorktown (CA)
NCC 1705 USS Excalibur (CC)
NCC 1706 USS Exeter (CA)
NCC 1707 USS Hood (CA)
NCC 1708 USS Intrepid (CA)
NCC 1709 USS Valiant (CA)
NCC 1710 USS Kongo (CC)
NCC 1711 USS Potemkin (CA)
NCC 1712 USS Bon Homme Richard (CC)

These are all undoubtedly what are commonly called Constitution Class ships.

However they are not identicle. The Lexington, Excalibur, Kongo and Bon Homme Richard are all Command Cruisers, while the others above are Heavy Cruisers.

Couple of later Constitution Class Ships

NCC 1728 USS Gettysburg (CB) Still constitution hull but is now a Heavy Command Cruiser :)
NCC 1749 USS Vincennes (CX) Still constitution hull but is considered a Battlecruiser.....

So this is what I believe could account for the inconsistencies. When a hull was laid its function was determined by the need of Star Fleet (or the Klingon navy etc). Each hull class had several design layouts, system layouts, weapon layouts, sensor suites, etc. Each of these were chosen to fit into the ship by the role it was suppose to play. In some cases updated systems were incorporated that older ships did not have and when they worked they were later incorporated into other ships in refits or if they didn't pan out were phased out.

Now lets jump to an example from an MMO, we'll use a space MMO, EVE Online.

In EVE you have a ship hull. Each hull has low, medium and hi slots. Into these you can put weapons, power, shields, armor etc. Due to the flexibility it is common for even two ships in the same fleet/group to be equipped very differently.

Some might be fitted for Electronic Warfare, Some might be Repair ships, Some might have Short Range Weapons, others Long Range, still others Medium Range.

What determines which is the better fit is the skill of the person using it with the modules fitted. You could have the best fit and if you don't know what stuff does, you will still lose. The same could apply to discrepancies in what you see in the shows/movies of Star Trek. Even if fit exactly the same the crew experience would vary greatly and even if in identically fitted ships one crew might not perform optimally which can make the ship look terrible in comparison to others of its Class.

Thus I believe the inconsistencies could be a direct correlation of actual different fittings in the same hull and crew experience with the fittings their assigned ship has.

I would like to see an eve level of fitting customization, but I'd also like to see a crew element that EVE does not have. A well fitted and well crewed Defiant class could destroy an average fitted and average crewed Galaxy probably. Against a well fitted and well crewed Galaxy hull they'd lose though.

[Roberto]

Voyager has Type 9 phaser arrays (this was stated in the show), Enterprise-D has Type 10 (I'm pretty sure that was stated in its show too), The Enterprise-E has unknown (it's never been said in the movies.) The Enterprise-D can fire five torpedoes forward in a single burst (seen multiple times), and three in a burst aftward(also seen). It can also fire consecutively, about five torpedoes in a second, with a half second delay before firing again. When Voyager fires a 'full spread', it fires only three torpedoes, forward or aftward, consecutively, over the course of about a second. So, the Intrepid has less torpedo firepower because it fires fewer torpedoes per spread and fires more slowly. It's also a safe assumption that that lower numbered phaser types are weaker, because of Type 1-3, being the cricket, handphaser, and rifle. Type 4 is for shuttles, and Type 8 goes on small ships, like the ones used by the Maquis, and on the Excelsior class. All of that is canon, you can check that phaser stuff at

The fact of the matter is, there is just about nothing on the actual firepower, and defensive power of either vessel. It simply stands to reason, through sheer size, that the Galaxy class beats the Intrepid, as that is generally the rule of thumb (bigger ships win, unless outnumbered). The Defiant goes against that, except it's been stated, in the show, that it goes against that and there are tons of examples to prove how strong it is, even without the statement, many of which I just posted.

I really don't want to get involved in this ... but I will just a tad bit.

There is plenty of of stats findable (that are considered cannon) on the firepower of these ships in question. Yes, the Enterprise D had type 10 phaser array. But, its not only that, part of what makes any phasers powerful is how long the stripping is. That glow you see on a ship, where you can see the phaser energy move across the ship to the point of fire is called the phaser strip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaTPOn2u8lA

The longer the strip, the more powerful the burst. So, even though it has a higher fitted array, the sheer fact that the Galaxy classes hull is so large and gives such a long phaser strip is why the ship packs such a huge punch.

The intrepid class has a much smaller hull size and is why the ship never seem to really pack much of a wallop.

The Sovereign class boast type 12 phaser emitters. Along with its large hull surface, new crystal purity (crystals are in part what make a phaser strip work - to simplify it) and a myriad of other tactical systems, it is the strongest ship in the fleet. At that time any way.

And for the people who keep saying the defiant class will just zoom in and then out dropping a payload off before a Galaxy can respond... The maximum range of the pulse (phaser) cannons on the defiant is nearly half the maximum distance of a Galaxy's maximum range of her answering shots. She will need to get a hell of a lot closer then is required of a Galaxy class star ship. Its just not going to be as simple as you think it will be...

[Drake1444]

I've wondered about the Galaxy vs more recent ships for awhile and so far the best theory that I've come up with is this.

The Galaxy class was built for exploration. Sure it can kick ass but it was designed and built during a time when there was relative peace between the Federation and most of the local major powers. It was meant for families and diplomacy in an era that was all "Hello, we're from the Federation, look at that big beautiful ships we build." Then came the Romulans and things slowly started to change.

After that the borg showed up and kicked everything into high gear. Ships that are more combat oriented like the Defiant, Intrepid, Sovereign, and Prometheus showed up.

The Galaxy is still a decent vessel, but big doesn't always mean more powerful. After the borg showed up in First Contact and the Klingons started causing trouble (not to forget the Dominion) I'm sure that the Galaxy was upgraded. Many of the science departments were probably removed or never installed on newer ships to make way for more combat systems. So here's my idea for how the Galaxy would stand up in combat.

Galaxy vs Defiant- the basic original Galaxy would probably fall to the Defiant's ability to avoid incoming fire but the defiant would take heavy damage. An uprated version would even the odds greatly. The galaxy has vast reserves to call upon to reinforce its shields and defiant would probably get knocked around pretty well from a direct strike.

Galaxy vs Intrepid- The Intrepid class is a scout craft plain and simple. It can out run a galaxy and maybe out fly it, but eventually a Galaxy would hammer it into a fine powder.

Galaxy vs Sovereign- Sovereign is Starfleets version of the galaxy class after experimenting with combat oriented ship design for a few years. She's slim, more agile, and a lot more weapon placements and fire power. Sov. would do to Galaxy what a Galaxy would do to an Intrepid.

Galaxy vs Prometheus- Prometheus, in my opinion, incorporates the best from all the above mentioned ships, plus a few more ideas. She may not win unscathed, but she'd still win.

There that's my theory on the which ship is more powerful. I do agree that the Defiant has been misrepresented in many games and I hope this game won't be one of them without a good reason. You hear that STO devs? Give the DS9 fans what they want; a tiny ship that can kick major ass.

[MajorD]

This question is a bit faulty. These ships are different classes so one ship is better in particular areas than then the other ship. A defiant class ship probably has better mobility and heavier weapons but is low in shielding and is short range.
It has the highest shielding and hull survivability of any ship its size, to the point that it's probably better protected than Voyager. Consider that there are instances where the Defiant took 20-50 hits to kill or took them without being killed, from advanced enemies, but where Voyager was on the verge of death several times from much smaller attacks by much less advanced enemies.

The inconsistencies can be explained though if we look at the construction of naval vessels of today. For example, though similar all Nimitz class carriers are different. They've been built over the span of three decades. The newer ones are more advanced than the older ones. Each one is slightly larger than the last one as well. There are other differences but to go into specifics would break security.
The comparison doesn't quite work, where there might be one new carrier every three years, there are probably something like ten Galaxy class starships ever year. DS9 had more Galaxy class ships than anyone would have ever suspected. You will have different ships in various stages of advancement, but Starfleet also seems to update their old ships to the new ship standards every few years. The Enterprise-D went to docks for upgrades several times in TNG. So, the chance of finding starships, within the same class, in truly different states, at least in Starfleet, seems a bit low.

The first thing to look at is the initial ship of a run. The Defiant is touted a lot. The Defiant was a prototype. It had heavier armament and armor than those that were eventually produced. Why is that? Probably budget cuts. It was decided the original was just to costly to reproduce so they scaled down the later production versions. This explains why the Defiant was more powerful than ships of its class.
Are you trying to come up with some sort of background that fits your premise or are you saying the later Defiant's had weaker systems? If the latter, that has no proof.

Now lets look at the Enterprise-D. This was the flagship of the Federation for many years. Being the flag ship it is obvious that it would have additional improvements beyond a normal Galaxy Class vessel. This would include heavier weapons, shielding and armor. Given the hostile nature of many of the Federations neighbors they would need a very sturdy flagship. Thus this could explain why the Enterprise seems more powerful than other Galaxy class, the reason is because it was.
There is no indication that is the case.

We've only ever seen one other Galaxy class ship in any engagement similar to those the Enterprise-D fought. That's the USS Odyssey, who was the very first Federation ship to fight the Jem'Hadar, at a point when Dominion weapons were still shield piercing and their shields still heavily resistant to Alpha/Beta Quadrant weapons. It survived about as long as the Enterprise-D did in the Generations battle.

Voyager also could not be considered a typical Intrepid class ship. During its time in the Delta Quadrant it scavenged technology from other civilizations, including the Borg. These were incorporated into the ship wherever possible. Thus Voyager is more powerful than a typical Intrepid class ship.
It didn't start that way, and only made itself better slowly over all those years of travel. Even so, throughout that, it fought mostly rather weak enemies, except in a few cases.

Ships oftentimes are called upon to test new prototypes and new systems. New ships are cheaper to build with such modifications than to take a ship out of service and refit them. Still sometimes existing ships are used to test such modifications. This could well explain why Enterprise and Defiant are not always consistent. Voyager's lack of consistance could be the lack of resupply. There's no indication of this happenning, Voyager even shows us that new systems are extremely easy to install, to the point that an alien weapon was installed on Voyager for a one off test. The cheapest method to test new weapons is to test them on the ground, then put them on a dedicated test craft if it comes to that, unless the system is so huge it will need a dedicated craft. I don't recall any systems so huge they require dedicated craft, in Star Trek.

For Voyager, the biggest factor in inconsistency is that they rarely fight the same ships twice, same for the Enterprise-D. Other than that, in all series, the other factor in inconsistency is usually in forgetting certain abilities.

These are all undoubtedly what are commonly called Constitution Class ships.

However they are not identicle. The Lexington, Excalibur, Kongo and Bon Homme Richard are all Command Cruisers, while the others above are Heavy Cruisers.

Considering the number of different classes Starfleet has, I find it unlikely they wouldn't make dedicated light cruiser and heavy cruiser hulls. Even today, ships are dedicated to their roles. There's the LCS, which to some extent will be modular, but it's designed to do light duties, not to switch from heavy to light. Your proposal only makes sense in that Cyrptic has already said there will be limited ship upgrades, although, I hope that limit they mention limits the ships to a particular class of function, so they can't go from heavy to light.

I really don't want to get involved in this ... but I will just a tad bit.

There is plenty of of stats findable (that are considered cannon) on the firepower of these ships in question. Yes, the Enterprise D had type 10 phaser array. But, its not only that, part of what makes any phasers powerful is how long the stripping is. That glow you see on a ship, where you can see the phaser energy move across the ship to the point of fire is called the phaser strip.
Unfortunately, phaser array length tells us nothing about the ship's absolute firepower, since there is no canon on how powerful a single Type 10 emitter is, nor do we know the total output of the Galaxy array, either in relative or non-subjective terms. Worse, there's no canon that says array length relates to firepower, even though the assumption is easy to make. For all we know it relates to cooling, and thus fire rate.

For the sake of finding some relative terms, it's not unreasonable to go along with the assumption of array length equaling array power. If we have two ships with Type 10 emitters, of which the Galaxy class dorsal main array has 933-963 emitter elements, we can come up with a relative firepower. The problem is, no other ship in canon has been stated to have Type 10 phasers. Voyager has Type 9, the Sovereign's phaser type has never been stated, despite Type 12 being bandied about everywhere except the movies and shows. The producers may want to go with the Sovereign and Prometheus using Type 11 or Type 12, because their main, dorsal arrays are about a third or fifth the length of the Galaxy class's.

The maximum range of the pulse (phaser) cannons on the defiant is nearly half the maximum distance of a Galaxy's maximum range of her answering shots. She will need to get a hell of a lot closer then is required of a Galaxy class star ship. Its just not going to be as simple as you think it will be...
To my knowledge, that is not canon. However, your sentiment is right, in that I think the ability of the Defiant to dodge shots is highly overrated, as when it was attacked by larger vessels, the larger vessel's attacks generally hit without much difficulty.
Galaxy vs Defiant- the basic original Galaxy would probably fall to the Defiant's ability to avoid incoming fire but the defiant would take heavy damage. An uprated version would even the odds greatly. The galaxy has vast reserves to call upon to reinforce its shields and defiant would probably get knocked around pretty well from a direct strike.
As I pointed out above, that isn't really the case, except against smaller vessels. I think the Galaxy class would win thanks to the combination of higher energy reserves and the Defiant's limited firing arcs. That last thing is important, even though the Defiant is more maneuverable, the Galaxy class can maneuver more freely because it doesn't need to worry about heading as much in order to fire. One thing never shown in games is the ability of the main arrays to fire in just about any direction, even backwards. Those secondary arrays on the Galaxy aren't to fill in blind spots, although, there are a couple small ones, they're actually there so the combat section has something to fight with when the saucer is separated, because the cobra head main array can't fire backwards since it's blocked by the hull. You'll notice that Voyager has very few secondary arrays, it's because its main arrays have decent, all around, firing arcs, too.

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/2590/voyagerrearfirefromfronbj4.jpg

Generally, I agree with the rest of what you said on the other other ships.

[walkingshark]

Previous Star Trek games have left me saying "What?" to Ship balance. Obviously the show doesn't help much since it does crazy stuff like show the Defiant rip through a few dozen Cardassian and Dominion ships while making me doubt the manliness of the Galaxy-class ships.

Defiant vs Galaxy:
Most games have the Defiant as a sort of powerful, agile scoutish type ship with little armor or shields which seems to go against the show. However I'd be pretty annoyed if the Defiant could easily destroy a Galaxy ship. In my mind a Galaxy-class ship could probably take out a Defiant-class ship but would take pretty decent damage from the battle. However I've talked to people who swear on their mom's grave that a Defiant would eat up a Galaxy based on what the show shows (which is an OP'd Defiant and the Enterprise getting almost owned several times by single captial ships).

Intrepid vs Galaxy:
Another issue. I like to think of the Intrepid as significantly weaker than a Galaxy-class ship. Again, some trekkers demand that the Intrepid-class is almost equal if not stronger. This is a crazy IMO. It's faster and more mobile and that's about it.

Ship balance! I hope it is good and makes sense. :P

Yes but the really important question in my mind is, who would win: The Enterprise E or the Death Star?

[mezlabor]

Yes but the really important question in my mind is, who would win: The Enterprise E or the Death Star?

Enterprise. You cant compare tek in these fictional properties. But the good guys always win the writers will come up with some reason why.

[Sealance]

The BoP also had the Enterprise's shield frequencies and was freely firing torpedoes at its warp core. If the Federation ship's shields and warp reactor not been compromised, I'm sure they would have.
thats called tactics.. button mashers don't know what that is ;)

[Roberto]

Eh? Length of the phaser strip (or trench) has direct correlation of how powerful the fire is. The strip is a ring of hundreds of tiny emitters, each capacitor charges up and discharges into it's partner emitter -and so on so forth - until the emitter that's supposed to fire the beam, is reached. I mean, I could go on about several things you said... but I won't bother. Like I said, everything I said is pretty easy to find via the net, tech manuals, etc, etc.

[Johenric]

Ship VS ship talk always brings a good laugh.
I remember when ST Voyager came out and there were all these people saying how powerfull Voyager is. Calling it a dreadnought and how if could destroy any ship yada yada. I would try and tell them its only a light cruise and they would chuckle like i had no idea what i was talking about. Ya just want to reach out and slap em'. HELLO ya FANBOY!
Just because its a new ship does not mean it is more powerful. Please everyone keep this in mind. Also just becasue one might think a ship looks cooler does not mean it is more powerful! LOL!

Now sorry to spoil it for many of ya but the Galaxy is a powerhouse. When refited to up to date tech it is only outmached by (federation ships only) the Soveriegn in combat. Again, crew skill even.
When refited for war the Galaxy is a Battleship. Also the Galaxy has more mass then the Soveriegn but is not as long. The Sov is made as a war ship and is faster and more manuverable then the Galaxy.

Starfleet Overall Combat ability from most powerful to weakest
(All ship upgraded to same tech level and at even crew skill)

Soveriegn (Battleship) Warship.
Galaxy (Battleship) Made to do everything.
Promethius (Cruiser) Warship.
Ambassador (Heavy Cruiser) Made to do everything.
Nebula (Heavy Cruiser) Different pods for different roles.
Lakota Refit (Cruiser) Heavy refite of Excelsior Class to modern warship.
Akira (Cruiser) Arguement that is has large fighter bays. I tend to think not but not sure.
Defiant (Destroyer) Warship. Typically destroyers are weaker the light cruisers. Not this one!
Excelsior (Cruiser) Keep it up to date and its a solid ship for any mission.
Intrepid (Light Cruiser) Small jack of all trades. Cover flank and harass in combat. Fast/Manouverable.
Steamrunner (Light Cruiser) Hull integrity improvement? Failed? Never see it anymore. Honestly not sure.
Miranda (Light Cruiser) Weak one at that. Can only do so much with a ship this old.
Saber (Frigate) Patrol and escort.
Nova (Frigate) Scout/Explorer short duration missions.

Quick rundown of the Current Fed ships. Some on this list are real close in ability but this is a strong evaluation to go by.
Also, people get too caught up about dodging FEDERATION phasers. VERY VERY rarely do Starfleet phasers miss. Remember this when comparing federation ships with eachother. Other races beam weapons seem to miss a heck of a lot more (well they are shooting at the good guys =P).

And if anyone ever says that an intrepid is a dreadnought again and all you that did.........Slap yourself in the face! (For all those voyager fanboys in the past. You know who you are).:D

[Swiftus27]

I am using the tabletop game Axis and Allies here as a reference... NOT the boardgame.

Vehicles all cost a various number of points.

There are 3 stats for every vehicle.
1. Speed
2. Armor
3. Firepower

Mostly every unit has some sort of special ability.

If you have two tanks that cost the same, one may have thick armor but would be slow, another could hit from long range but could be knocked out from behind. Something like a King Tiger (a huge WWII tank) costs 71 points because it is high in all 3 (like a battleship).

However one earns a spaceship is up in the air. I just would like to see fast ships, slow ships, ones bristling with weaponry, and those who can just take a beating. I don't want each level of ship to simply upgrade all 3 of these stats. I want there to be some strategy involved here too!

[USS_Parallax]

Soveriegn (Battleship) Warship.
Galaxy (Battleship) Made to do everything.
Promethius (Cruiser) Warship.
Ambassador (Heavy Cruiser) Made to do everything.
Nebula (Heavy Cruiser) Different pods for different roles.
Lakota Refit (Cruiser) Heavy refite of Excelsior Class to modern warship.
Akira (Cruiser) Arguement that is has large fighter bays. I tend to think not but not sure.
Defiant (Destroyer) Warship. Typically destroyers are weaker the light cruisers. Not this one!
Excelsior (Cruiser) Keep it up to date and its a solid ship for any mission.
Intrepid (Light Cruiser) Small jack of all trades. Cover flank and harass in combat. Fast/Manouverable.
Steamrunner (Light Cruiser) Hull integrity improvement? Failed? Never see it anymore. Honestly not sure.
Miranda (Light Cruiser) Weak one at that. Can only do so much with a ship this old.
Saber (Frigate) Patrol and escort.
Nova (Frigate) Scout/Explorer short duration missions.


Ambassador I might give you however that ship is getting old. We have no real way of telling how good in combat it was other then the fact that it used to be the Flagship.
I would however think the Nebula, being not much worse in combat then a Galaxy-class ship, would be more powerful then an Ambassador-class and it's theorized that the Nebula-class was in fact the Flagship class for a few years before the Galaxy came out.
Lakota, this is where you're just plain wrong. That episode had Sisko hesitating and also suffered bad writing. It's the strongest Excelsior refit known but it would still go down several. Defiant >>> Lakota.

Also I have no idea how you think Intrepid is weaker then the Excelsior-class. This is just crazy talk. Heck Streamrunner, Saber should be above it too. The classes that faired the worst in the Dominion War were in fact Miranda and Excelsior (any refit). Heck the Nova seemed to do better in the war even.

Fact of the matter is Miranda and Excelsior are old ships which are pretty weak refit or not and there are few modern ships they can take in a fair 1v1 no holding back battle.


Real list:
Soveriegn
Galaxy
Promethius
Ambassador/Nebula? (Ambassador would probably go lower if it's not a refit)
Akira
Defiant (Higher if it's THE Defiant ;P)
Intrepid
Lakota Excelsior Refit (the only reason I haven't sticked this lower is due to bad writing :eek:)
Steamrunner
Saber
Excelsior Refit
Miranda Refit
Nova (probably did better in the war simply because it could run away really fast)

[Interdictor]

I'd rate current/common Starfleet vessels (in terms of offensive military power) like this:

Soveriegn (Heavy Explorer) Can do everything but has a particular emphasis on combat).

Galaxy (Explorer) Can do just about anything and has been constantly upgraded. And if the TV
shows are to beleived it's gona have a LONG service life and stay effective for quite a while.

Nebula (Multi-Role Heavy Cruiser) Can specialize in different roles with different configuable pods.

Akira (Heavy Cruiser) Large torpedo armament, and room for lots of shuttles and fighters.

Defiant (Heavy Escort) Possibly the Federation's first TRUE dedicated warship. Impressive firepower
for it's size at the cost of other more general systems.

Ambassador (Explorer) Direct ancestor of the Galaxy class, made to do everything, but getting a little long
in the tooth (though it should still enjoy a long service life through upgrades). Probably just
under the Defiant in terms of direct firepower, but probably has better defenses/shields.

Intrepid (Light Exploratory Cruiser) Small jack of all trades. Size does pose some limitations in ability
though.

Excelsior (Exploratory Cruiser) Federation's old standby. Still packs enough of a punch and has enough
utility to be useful.

Nova (Science/Surveyor) Definately not meant for combat but it's newer technology means that it
can still probably pack a punch.

Miranda (Light Cruiser) Another old Federation favourite, though it is obviously reaching the end of it's
service life.

Olympic (Medical Ship) Impressive shields, but not much in the way of armament.

Oberth (Science/Surveyor) Another old-timer, probably being replaced bythe newer Nova class.
Never had much in the way of tactical punch. Probably equal to a runabout or fighter.



Honourable Mention:

Prometheus: (Experimental Heavy Cruiser) Since this is only an experiment and unique (as far as we know) I'll keep this seperate. Still, I'd probably stick this in between the Galaxy and Sovereign for overall offensive capabilty. The individual parts may be rated at a lower level however.

Steamrunner: Honestly don't know much about this class of ship. It appeared only briefly in First Contact and several times in the dominion war. At least one source lists it as a Heavy Frigate. I'd probably list it somewhere around and Intrepid or Ambassador.

Norway: Again - not much known (I've only seen it during First Contact and once during the Dominion War). I've seen it described as a Fast Frigate. And probably has Intrepid-level Firepower.

Saber: Another shy ship class (only seen in First Contact). Listed as a Light Cruiser, I'd probably say it's below the Intrepid.

Centaur: Only seen once during the series (as far as I know). Listed as a Cruiser, so probably equal to or just under Intrepid.

Curry/Shelley: Not much known, but was seen a couple times in the series. Supposed to be a Carrier. Probably doesn't have much in the way of direct armament (probably around Excelsior level) but it's fighters could make up the difference.

[USS_Parallax]

The Centaur is another oldie like the Miranda and Excelsior however it's probably newer then them by a bit. The Steamrunner, Norway and Saber are relatively modern ships and of decent size so they're probably of respectable combat abilities.

[Swiftus27]

Then where would the Star Destroyer fit in?

sorry... isnt this the SWG forum???

[Interdictor]

Then where would the Star Destroyer fit in?


Under the Oberth :D

[Interdictor]

The Centaur is another oldie like the Miranda and Excelsior however it's probably newer then them by a bit. The Steamrunner, Norway and Saber are relatively modern ships and of decent size so they're probably of respectable combat abilities.

Yeah - they probably fill the gaps between the Ambassador/Intrepid/Excelsior.

[MajorD]

Eh? Length of the phaser strip (or trench) has direct correlation of how powerful the fire is. The strip is a ring of hundreds of tiny emitters, each capacitor charges up and discharges into it's partner emitter -and so on so forth - until the emitter that's supposed to fire the beam, is reached. I mean, I could go on about several things you said... but I won't bother. Like I said, everything I said is pretty easy to find via the net, tech manuals, etc, etc.
Cite a canon example of phaser array length equating to phaser firepower and that they each act as a capacitor. Lots of things get put on the Internet, it doesn't mean they're correct. There is so much information out there from speculation, assumption, and the Technical Manuals, which aren't canon, that most people don't know the difference. A good example of this is DITL.org (http://www.ditl.org/) because it color codes the canon information, behind the scenes/technical manual information, and speculation.

I think phaser array length definitely equates to phaser array strength. However, I only think it, I don't know it, because there is nothing in canon to support it. I think the same of warp core length, but don't know it either, since no one in Trek has ever said, larger warp cores have higher wattage. For all I know, heavier warp cores have higher power. Or the power of the Intrepid's and Galaxy's cores are equal.
Ship VS ship talk always brings a good laugh.
I remember when ST Voyager came out and there were all these people saying how powerfull Voyager is. Calling it a dreadnought and how if could destroy any ship yada yada. I would try and tell them its only a light cruise and they would chuckle like i had no idea what i was talking about. Ya just want to reach out and slap em'. HELLO ya FANBOY!
Just because its a new ship does not mean it is more powerful. Please everyone keep this in mind. Also just becasue one might think a ship looks cooler does not mean it is more powerful! LOL!
I never saw that before, pretty crazy, almost like the Defiant fanboys. Although, the Defiant has an actual basis for that fanaticism, Voyager never survived more shots than a D'Deridex and Galaxy class from the same enemy, as the Defiant has.

Soveriegn (Battleship) Warship.
Galaxy (Battleship) Made to do everything.
Promethius (Cruiser) Warship.
Ambassador (Heavy Cruiser) Made to do everything.
Nebula (Heavy Cruiser) Different pods for different roles.
Lakota Refit (Cruiser) Heavy refite of Excelsior Class to modern warship.
Akira (Cruiser) Arguement that is has large fighter bays. I tend to think not but not sure.
Defiant (Destroyer) Warship. Typically destroyers are weaker the light cruisers. Not this one!
Excelsior (Cruiser) Keep it up to date and its a solid ship for any mission.
Intrepid (Light Cruiser) Small jack of all trades. Cover flank and harass in combat. Fast/Manouverable.
Steamrunner (Light Cruiser) Hull integrity improvement? Failed? Never see it anymore. Honestly not sure.
Miranda (Light Cruiser) Weak one at that. Can only do so much with a ship this old.
Saber (Frigate) Patrol and escort.
Nova (Frigate) Scout/Explorer short duration missions.
Assuming the warp core of the Galaxy and Nebula classes are equal in power, then the Nebula class, with war pod should be more powerful than the Galaxy class, for several reasons. First, the Nebula has less surface area to shield, meaning it can put more energy into the shields, or have shields of the same ability at less power cost. Secondly, the Nebula class has no neck, this makes the ship shorter and slightly lighter, allowing slightly better maneuverability. I would add better acceleration too, except that we can't see the Nebula class' impulse engines, we can't even tell if it has any. Thirdly, a dedicated weapon pod means the possibility of carrying more, or more capable, torpedo tubes. I think the list should go like this.

Sovereign (It's just new and big, not Galaxy big, but still new. It also has five forwar and rear torpedo tubes all capable of at least three consecutive shots, the Quantum torpedo tube can fire five consecutively.)
Prometheus (It's the second pure warship of the Federation, I would feel secure placing it above the Sovereign since it has, if memory serves, three or five torpedo tubes when split. However, I wouldn't use MVAM, I think it's horrible. I would make the ship a single hull and of course place the tubes on the outside.)
Nebula
Akira (If those openings are all torpedo tubes, then I think it has 23 torpedo tubes that can fire three consecutive torpedoes. It's also a pretty big ship)
Galaxy
Defiant
Lakota (Excelsior refit)(The Lakota did considerable damage to the Defiant, it had actually lost its shields, however, the Lakota is stated to be in worse shape, that one good hit would probably finish them. The Lakota would need to use its Qauntum torpedoes to defeat the Defiant, as implied in the episode, it would also destroy the Defiant in the process, so the Lakota's commander refused to continue the fight. It seems the ablative armor on the Defiant made a difference, as the Lakota's commander mentions it as a reason for not being able to disable the Defiant.)
Intrepid (In the end, the lot of this is guess work, particularly the relation of this and the other ships to the Intrepid class. It simply hasn't had the chance to fight vessels other Federation ships have fought, nor has it fought other Federation vessels.)
Excelsior (We simply have nothing on the Intrepid to compare it to other Federation vessels. So, Personally, I think the Excelsior being smaller than the Intrepid, and far older, makes this a reasonable spot for the Excelsior)
Miranda (These died liked flees in a steam cleaning, during the Dominion war, there's really no guessing needed to see that they should be placed really low on the list.)
Nova (The Nova class got the poo kicked out of it making its way through the Gamma Quadrant and the Intrepid took little damage fighting it. It's also very small and stated to be a short term mission ship.)

[Mathmatics]

Example, a Runabout could out manuever a Galaxy Class vessel with no problem


No this is space, manueverability is relative to the size of the warp core not the mass of the chasis. By that logic a shuttle would pwn all.

[USS_Parallax]

Despite Nebula looking it I think it's pretty accepted that it's not quite got the power of a Galaxy-class ship. Why wouldn't Nebula be the flagships when Galaxy came around? I think adding that war thingy to it would just make it almost match a Galaxy, maybe match but still be weaker then the refits the Galaxy-class saw during the war.
Heck by the looks of it the Nebula SHOULD be stronger but it's just plain not. :D


The Nova-class is one of my favorite ships. Too bad it's so weak. :P
I wouldn't be surprised if it could possibly take on Miranda and Excelsior or at least almost though outside of the rare Lakota type refits.

[MajorD]

No this is space, manueverability is relative to the size of the warp core not the mass of the chasis. By that logic a shuttle would pwn all.
Maneuverability is based on hull size. In the Scotty episode from TNG "Relics", in an effort to cheer Scotty up, Geordi says some old ship from Scotty's era, if fully repaired, would fly circles around the Enterprise-D. However, bigger ships are faster at warp and probably have higher top speeds at impulse, although that last thing is something of a guess. Although, the shuttlepods from Enterprise were only capable of one quarter impulse, while the Enterprise could go full impulse.
Despite Nebula looking it I think it's pretty accepted that it's not quite got the power of a Galaxy-class ship. Why wouldn't Nebula be the flagships when Galaxy came around? I think adding that war thingy to it would just make it almost match a Galaxy, maybe match but still be weaker then the refits the Galaxy-class saw during the war.

The Nova-class is one of my favorite ships. Too bad it's so weak. :P
I wouldn't be surprised if it could possibly take on Miranda and Excelsior or at least almost though outside of the rare Lakota type refits.
It seems apparent to me that the flagship of the Federation was chosen on the basis of what ship best exemplifies the Federation. The Galaxy class is a little slice of Utopia, while the Nebula class is Marsha from The Brady Bunch.

A Nova might take on a Miranda, the Miranda has slightly better torpedo firepower, but who's to say what the phaser firepower is like, and the Miranda hull is pretty ancient. There's a small chance it could take on a non-Lakota Excelsior, but I wouldn't bet on it. I'll say it again, the Nova class only ever fought Voyager, which in turn never fought the Federation's normal enemies, so we can only guess. In this case, yours is pretty much as good as mine.

[sniperct]

Most of the Delta Quadrant enemies were pretty weak iirc.

Anyway, I wouldn't say it's hull SIZE but hull MASS. We're talking space here, it'll be mass that makes the difference not size of the hull. WIth inertia dampeners, any ship can do all kinds of crazy manuevers and spinning around. But the more massive it is the more energy it takes to DO that, thus the slower it responds.

[USS_Parallax]

That's possibly crazier talk then Lakota vs Defiant talk. There's no chance Nebula > Galaxy in combat. :rolleyes:

[Azurian]

Manuverablity is determined by three things: The Impulse Engines, the Quality of the Manuvering Thrusters, and the mass of the starship.

The Enterprise-D and E are massive Dreadnaught-class starships. So a smaller ship like a Nova, Defiant, and even an older Excellsior could outmanuver these larger ships. But these large ships could fly around a Borg Cube with ease.


So if we are able to upgrade our engines and thrusters, a larger ship could end up as manuverable of a ship of the lighter class.

For instance, a Nebula being as manuverable than an Akira-class Heavy Cruiser. (But you probably have to sacrifice weapons and perhaps shielding to accomplish this).

[r2data]

Manuverablity is determined by three things: The Impulse Engines, the Quality of the Manuvering Thrusters, and the mass of the starship.

The Enterprise-D and E are massive Dreadnaught-class starships. So a smaller ship like a Nova, Defiant, and even an older Excellsior could outmanuver these larger ships. But these large ships could fly around a Borg Cube with ease.


So if we are able to upgrade our engines and thrusters, a larger ship could end up as manuverable of a ship of the lighter class.

For instance, a Nebula being as manuverable than an Akira-class Heavy Cruiser. (But you probably have to sacrifice weapons and perhaps shielding to accomplish this).

I definitely cannot see the Excelsior flying rings around a Galaxy or a Sov. It masses the same, yet has older, weaker engines. If anything, it would be a lot less maneuverable... like a brick. This is one thing ST:L got right I think.

It's not mainly engines that make ships maneuverable. It's also their mass. Simple physics. If you add bigger engines to the ship, all that means is that it's faster. The faster an object goes, the harder it is to turn (or maneuver). It gets worse as the mass increases because more energy is then required to change the vector. So if a heavier object, going faster (i.e. Nebula class) is tested against a lighter, slower object (Akira), the lighter one will be able to maneuver better and faster.

Just to add my two cents in to the general discussion, lighter, smaller ships should never be able to match bigger ships in terms of firepower or ability to take hits. This also applies to bigger ships, where they should not be as maneuverable as smaller ships, and so easier to hit. Since they can take hits though, this shouldn't matter that much. Following this, both have their own good points and as such, neither should be a 'super-class'... meaning neither should have that much of an advantage over the other.

[MajorD]

That's possibly crazier talk then Lakota vs Defiant talk. There's no chance Nebula > Galaxy in combat. :rolleyes:
Please prove it then, I've given reasons why the Nebula would be more capable, given equal warp cores. I won't pretend it's canon that they have equal cores but I think it stands to reason that they do, considering the nearly equal sizes of their engineering sections in the vertical.

[MajorD]

I definitely cannot see the Excelsior flying rings around a Galaxy or a Sov. It masses the same, yet has older, weaker engines. If anything, it would be a lot less maneuverable... like a brick. This is one thing ST:L got right I think.

Following this, both have their own good points and as such, neither should be a 'super-class'... meaning neither should have that much of an advantage over the other.
Yeah, I agree on the Excelsior not being super maneuverable relative to the Galaxy or Sovereign, it probably masses only half the Galaxy, since TOS ships are heavier than TNG era ships.
http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWvolumetrics.html
I can imagine it being more maneuverable than the Galaxy, but not flying circles around it.

Larger ships in Star Trek are just better. Not only can they soak more damage and dish more damage out, they are going to have better fire control. We've seen that maneuverability does help, but only to a certain point. Take for instance the Federation Fighers in DS9, they died easily to the secondary fire of Cardassian Galor class ships, even with a good number of misses. In a single pass of a squadron of five such fighters, two could be killed per pass per run. Not only that, in Sacrifice of Angels, a Dominion cruiser even hit a Federation Fighter with a pulse weapon, which is truly impressive considering how inaccurate all pulse weapons usually are.

[r2data]

Yeah, I agree on the Excelsior not being super maneuverable relative to the Galaxy or Sovereign, it probably masses only half the Galaxy, since TOS ships are heavier than TNG era ships.
http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWvolumetrics.html
I can imagine it being more maneuverable than the Galaxy, but not flying circles around it.


That is based on length estimates which is not quite right. if you look at this picture http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Image:Excelsior_starboard_of_Galaxy.jpg , the Excelsior is pretty much as big as the Galaxy which would make the mass about the same... unless TNG vessels use lighter materials in which case it would have more mass than a Galaxy.
There is no way that an Excelsior masses half the Galaxy.

[Azurian]

I definitely cannot see the Excelsior flying rings around a Galaxy or a Sov. It masses the same, yet has older, weaker engines. If anything, it would be a lot less maneuverable... like a brick. This is one thing ST:L got right I think.

It's not mainly engines that make ships maneuverable. It's also their mass. Simple physics. If you add bigger engines to the ship, all that means is that it's faster. The faster an object goes, the harder it is to turn (or maneuver). It gets worse as the mass increases because more energy is then required to change the vector. So if a heavier object, going faster (i.e. Nebula class) is tested against a lighter, slower object (Akira), the lighter one will be able to maneuver better and faster.

Just to add my two cents in to the general discussion, lighter, smaller ships should never be able to match bigger ships in terms of firepower or ability to take hits. This also applies to bigger ships, where they should not be as maneuverable as smaller ships, and so easier to hit. Since they can take hits though, this shouldn't matter that much. Following this, both have their own good points and as such, neither should be a 'super-class'... meaning neither should have that much of an advantage over the other.

Of course not "fly rings". But if you are in a turning battle, it can make a world of difference. Even if it's an older starship like an Excelsior-class.

As for your Physics, no offense, but they are not quite correct. Because bigger doesn't always mean better. With engines, what matters is not only their thrust, but the efficiency of that thrust (I.E. the engine's "Impulse"). That's where Gene got the idea of naming it the "Impulse Engine". :p

For instance, in the real world. Chemical Rocket Engines generate tons of thrust, but in space they are far from efficient. But with modern Ion Engines, they have high Impulse ratings, but little thrust.

So if you have a large engine shooting lets say 100,000 tons of thrust, but an efficiency of 50% then compare it to a smaller engine that has does 50,000 tons of thrust with 100% efficiency, they are essentially is the same. Basically, it doesn't mean a Galaxy Class is going to be better than an Excelsior. (Besides, remember what Geordi said in Relics, "Impulse engines haven't changed much in a 100 years". So that means the Excelsior-class will have the advantage on maneuverability right there. :D


As for Mass, the Galaxy-class is obviously heavier. And let's for the sake of argument say it has the same relative thrust than an Excelsior-class, it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to go faster. That engine has to work harder because it has more mass to push. Then in space you got relativity issues, in which the faster you go, the heavier you get. So the Excelsior class is going to have an easier time than a Galaxy-class in means of higher Impulse speeds.

As for Turning, you are talking about course changing via angular momentum. It's simple physics, the closer your momentum is to the center of mass, the faster you turn. The farther, the slower. (Like a Ice Skater). So a Galaxy-class is going to be slower to turn because it's large and it's center of mass is farther than the Excelsior.


So like I said, if a Nebula beefed up its maneuvering thrusters, it can turn as fast as an unmodified Akira. But to do so, you most likely had to give up weapons and shielding.

[Roberto]

Cite a canon example of phaser array length equating to phaser firepower and that they each act as a capacitor. Lots of things get put on the Internet, it doesn't mean they're correct. There is so much information out there from speculation, assumption, and the Technical Manuals, which aren't canon.

You say this so emphatically like its an adamant fact.

As for where the function of where and how the phaser array works, thats from the technical manual. The fact that they are sanctioned by Paramount, given to episodes writers and staff, and Roddenberry himself considered them a background source somewhat speaks against the harsh way you're trying to slap them down.

After I did some checking

In 2005, Harry Lang, Senior Director at Viacom (the parent company of Paramount). Flat out said that the tech manuals are considered canon on Startrek.com. There are too many instances, of production, star writers, Paramount heralding the manuals as "excellent source material" to so simply slap it away. As far as I can tell (from what I have read - in particular Ronald Moore) some people are hesitant to refer to them as strict canon is because they don't want to get trapped into something encase they need to change it for an episode to run smoother. Thats a safeguard - not a dismissal.

As aforementioned, there are a myriad of instances of people (people being the ones who made the show) citing tech manuals as source and production help. When you give it to your staff writers and creators (never mind the others involved in creating the verse) it kinda says something.

Sorry, but you can't just dismiss it away so easily because no one said an exact whatever in episodes xxx in the year xxxx. If that was what people had for canonical references alone, then there wouldn't be much to talk about, would there?

[r2data]

Of course not "fly rings". But if you are in a turning battle, it can make a world of difference. Even if it's an older starship like an Excelsior-class.

As for your Physics, no offense, but they are not quite correct. Because bigger doesn't always mean better. With engines, what matters is not only their thrust, but the efficiency of that thrust (I.E. the engine's "Impulse"). That's where Gene got the idea of naming it the "Impulse Engine". :p

For instance, in the real world. Chemical Rocket Engines generate tons of thrust, but in space they are far from efficient. But with modern Ion Engines, they have high Impulse ratings, but little thrust.

So if you have a large engine shooting lets say 100,000 tons of thrust, but an efficiency of 50% then compare it to a smaller engine that has does 50,000 tons of thrust with 100% efficiency, they are essentially is the same. Basically, it doesn't mean a Galaxy Class is going to be better than an Excelsior. (Besides, remember what Geordi said in Relics, "Impulse engines haven't changed much in a 100 years". So that means the Excelsior-class will have the advantage on maneuverability right there. :D


As for Mass, the Galaxy-class is obviously heavier. And let's for the sake of argument say it has the same relative thrust than an Excelsior-class, it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to go faster. That engine has to work harder because it has more mass to push. Then in space you got relativity issues, in which the faster you go, the heavier you get. So the Excelsior class is going to have an easier time than a Galaxy-class in means of higher Impulse speeds.

As for Turning, you are talking about course changing via angular momentum. It's simple physics, the closer your momentum is to the center of mass, the faster you turn. The farther, the slower. (Like a Ice Skater). So a Galaxy-class is going to be slower to turn because it's large and it's center of mass is farther than the Excelsior.


So like I said, if a Nebula beefed up its maneuvering thrusters, it can turn as fast as an unmodified Akira. But to do so, you most likely had to give up weapons and shielding.

How do you rate efficiency then? As you said, it's not going to be totally effective.. but giving one engine a 100% rating while the other is half that doesn't make sense. Since you cannot calculate the efficiency of both their engines (them not being real) wouldn't it make sense to have them both at the same efficiency thereby discounting them as a factor? If not, I would say that the engineers would do their best to get their engines up to top efficiency which makes them both 100% and again discounted as a factor.

I was arguing mainly on the point that upgrading engines would mean a more maneuverable starship. It would not. As above, all it would mean is that the ship is going faster... because an upgraded engine would produce more thrust.

I don't think you understand my argument. I was not talking about spinning on your axis (angular momentum). I was talking about turning while you're moving. Your point was that upgraded engines make for more maneuverable ship and I was saying it wasn't because upgrading engines just meant that your ship moves faster and would in fact make it harder for you to turn thus less maneuverable. Even if I was talking about spinning on the axis, the fact is that Excelsiors, similar in size to the Galaxy (see previous post), are longer because their nacelles are longer. This makes them further from their center than a Galaxy is and therefore harder to turn.

[Ensign.Ricky]

It has the highest shielding and hull survivability of any ship its size, to the point that it's probably better protected than Voyager. Consider that there are instances where the Defiant took 20-50 hits to kill or took them without being killed, from advanced enemies, but where Voyager was on the verge of death several times from much smaller attacks by much less advanced enemies.


Definitely stronger than an Intrepid's shields but not as nearly as a Galaxy's. Again, the original question is a bit uneven.

[USS_Parallax]

Common sense is proof enough.

Galaxy > Nebula

To suggest otherwise is completely ridiculous.

[USS_Parallax]

Well according to most... well pretty much ALL material I've read in the past the Nebula is almost as good as a Galaxy. Looking at reference books, games, etc (which is what ship balance is usually judged by since we don't see 'em all too much in the shows) we get some very similar information like:


Nebula has lower maximum warp slightly. Your average Nebula's maximum speed is warp 9.3-9.5, 9.6 with serious strain. The latest refit brought the warp to 9.9 (which is how one caught up with the Prometheus) but the Galaxy got a similar one that goes warp 9.9 too. It's unknown if the slight different still exists (which was like a few %s) after each has been refit.

The Galaxy-class had upgraded ship computer systems compared to the Nebula. Many sources, not all though, claim the Galaxy-class has a slightly stronger hull too because of design and not because it's a harder substance.

The Galaxy-class has a slightly more durable hull, it's torpedo launchers can fire more rapidly, it's got more Type 10 phaser arrays then a Nebula and they have a greater capability for sustained firing and rapid recharge. The Galaxy class was the first Federation starship where every phaser array was supplied by a separate power system. This allows the phaser arrays much more survivability in combat.

While the Nebula can customize itself for missions generally speaking the Galaxy-class simply doesn't have to because it can do most of the stuff alone save a few tasks.

The refit Galaxy-class ships got a new warpcore, better shields, more phaser arrays, etc. The newer Galaxy class ships actually had many of their scientific stuff taken out to reduce mass and make it better in combat.


And to put it plainly man Star Trek reference books out there specifically say the Nebula has about 80% the capability of a Galaxy-class ship. Even with special customized pods for specific missions it's still usually about 95% in that specific area.
So even with a fully rigged out combat pod it'll be roughly 95% as good at combat as a Galaxy-class but might lack a bit more in the sciences then 80% because of it.


To put it simply the Galaxy-class ships spent a lot more time being designed and came out like over 10 years later and the Galaxy-class by that time was simply better designed and better built.

[Zweistein000]

In my opinion the galaxy shuld take out the defiant but still take some dmg AND the other way around, but it wuld take a more expirienced captin in defiant to destroy the galaxy.
I'd say that the galaxy and the defiant's wepon sistems have about the same power, the defiants manuvremility and speed are 150% better then galaxy but defiants shields and armor are preety weak.

If a battle wuld accure betwen these 2 id say that defiant wuld win if it took the advantage of its speed and if it wuld do some craisy manoovers out of the range of galaxy's tractor beams. BUT if deiant came 2 close the galaxy wuld lock on the tractor beams thus making defiant a sitting duck 4 its wepon systems the defant wuld lose. Another way to destroy the defiant wuld be to destroy or disable its impulse drives and thrusters so the defiant wuld no longer be able to evade weapons fire so much.

[Zweistein000]

I agree with USS Parallax

[Swiftus27]

In my opinion the galaxy shuld take out the defiant but still take some dmg AND the other way around, but it wuld take a more expirienced captin in defiant to destroy the galaxy.
I'd say that the galaxy and the defiant's wepon sistems have about the same power, the defiants manuvremility and speed are 150% better then galaxy but defiants shields and armor are preety weak.

If a battle wuld accure betwen these 2 id say that defiant wuld win if it took the advantage of its speed and if it wuld do some craisy manoovers out of the range of galaxy's tractor beams. BUT if deiant came 2 close the galaxy wuld lock on the tractor beams thus making defiant a sitting duck 4 its wepon systems the defant wuld lose. Another way to destroy the defiant wuld be to destroy or disable its impulse drives and thrusters so the defiant wuld no longer be able to evade weapons fire so much.

No. Galaxy >>>> Defiant.
1. Tractor beam
2. Phasers/torps
3. Defiant = carbon dust

No way that a Defiant class could take down the Ent D.

[Roberto]

No. Galaxy >>>> Defiant.
1. Tractor beam
2. Phasers/torps
3. Defiant = carbon dust

No way that a Defiant class could take down the Ent D.

Its not even a contest - I don't know why people persist why. The Galaxy class Star Ship is better in every way possible - cept maneuvering - which that aspect is meaningless since the Defiant has to get almost twice as close to touch with its phaser cannons.

The defiant is a remarkable ship for its size - thats it.

[aguila432]

Here we go with the god awful word of balance.
That word causes more problems in mmo then any other.

[Lions77]

Actually Tricobalts have been used previously in games. They were used by the Steamrunner class and they were Devastating vs shielded targets. to say that an explosion of that magnitude would e inafective against shielded targets is plain retarded.

Games, sadly are not canon or a good indicator of capabilities. Case in point, Star Trek: Armada. I love the game to death to death but you will notice that tech like chain reaction pulsars, engine disruptors and yes, tri-cobalts was mostly made up and the ships were pigeonholed to fit certain roles in the game, (Ex. Galaxy class are battleships, when they have been classfied in several places as explorers). End of story.

As for Defiant class vs. Galaxy I reckon it would be a good fight that would depend on where and how the battle was fought as to who won.

Defiants vs Intrepids would not, however be a good fight. While Intrepid class vessels have been labeled light cruisers they are not "mini-Sovereigns" by any stretch. The were originally designed as a multi-role platform, whereas the Defiant was built from the ground up as an anti-Borg combat vessel. There is nod doubt in my mind, that the crews being equal, and with no "cover" (ie asteroids, nebulae, and the like) that a Defiant would straight up take out an Intrepid. Many people discount the pulse phasers as a short range weapon. Their range (and firepower for that manner) should be comparable, if not greater than that of a standard phaser array due to the way each pulse is structured.

Pulse Phaser pulses, if my memory serves me are comparable in structure to an onion in that it is layered. This means the blast is much harder to dissipate (giving greater range) en route to target, and on impact takes more energy to dissipate as well (more fire power).

If anything, pulse phasers can be classified as less accurate and utilitarian due to the nature of being a fixed, frontal arc weapon.

As for classifications of each class (Destroyer, Cruiser, Heavy Cruiser and so on..) in most sources this really refers to the tonnage size of each vessel, and not so much the firepower.

Prometheus class vessels (if the are included and I sincerely hope they will be) should be a greater threat (having successfully fended off an Akira and 2 Defiants courtesy of it's advanced weaponry, defensive systems and MVAM.

[Roberto]

Many people discount the pulse phasers as a short range weapon. Their range (and firepower for that manner) should be comparable, if not greater than that of a standard phaser array due to the way each pulse is structured.

That is incorrect - its a lot shorter range than a standard array.

[Boone]

It has the highest shielding and hull survivability of any ship its size, to the point that it's probably better protected than Voyager. Consider that there are instances where the Defiant took 20-50 hits to kill or took them without being killed, from advanced enemies, but where Voyager was on the verge of death several times from much smaller attacks by much less advanced enemies.


The comparison doesn't quite work, where there might be one new carrier every three years, there are probably something like ten Galaxy class starships ever year. DS9 had more Galaxy class ships than anyone would have ever suspected. You will have different ships in various stages of advancement, but Starfleet also seems to update their old ships to the new ship standards every few years. The Enterprise-D went to docks for upgrades several times in TNG. So, the chance of finding starships, within the same class, in truly different states, at least in Starfleet, seems a bit low.


Are you trying to come up with some sort of background that fits your premise or are you saying the later Defiant's had weaker systems? If the latter, that has no proof.


There is no indication that is the case.

We've only ever seen one other Galaxy class ship in any engagement similar to those the Enterprise-D fought. That's the USS Odyssey, who was the very first Federation ship to fight the Jem'Hadar, at a point when Dominion weapons were still shield piercing and their shields still heavily resistant to Alpha/Beta Quadrant weapons. It survived about as long as the Enterprise-D did in the Generations battle.


It didn't start that way, and only made itself better slowly over all those years of travel. Even so, throughout that, it fought mostly rather weak enemies, except in a few cases.

There's no indication of this happenning, Voyager even shows us that new systems are extremely easy to install, to the point that an alien weapon was installed on Voyager for a one off test. The cheapest method to test new weapons is to test them on the ground, then put them on a dedicated test craft if it comes to that, unless the system is so huge it will need a dedicated craft. I don't recall any systems so huge they require dedicated craft, in Star Trek.

For Voyager, the biggest factor in inconsistency is that they rarely fight the same ships twice, same for the Enterprise-D. Other than that, in all series, the other factor in inconsistency is usually in forgetting certain abilities.


Considering the number of different classes Starfleet has, I find it unlikely they wouldn't make dedicated light cruiser and heavy cruiser hulls. Even today, ships are dedicated to their roles. There's the LCS, which to some extent will be modular, but it's designed to do light duties, not to switch from heavy to light. Your proposal only makes sense in that Cyrptic has already said there will be limited ship upgrades, although, I hope that limit they mention limits the ships to a particular class of function, so they can't go from heavy to light.


Unfortunately, phaser array length tells us nothing about the ship's absolute firepower, since there is no canon on how powerful a single Type 10 emitter is, nor do we know the total output of the Galaxy array, either in relative or non-subjective terms. Worse, there's no canon that says array length relates to firepower, even though the assumption is easy to make. For all we know it relates to cooling, and thus fire rate.

For the sake of finding some relative terms, it's not unreasonable to go along with the assumption of array length equaling array power. If we have two ships with Type 10 emitters, of which the Galaxy class dorsal main array has 933-963 emitter elements, we can come up with a relative firepower. The problem is, no other ship in canon has been stated to have Type 10 phasers. Voyager has Type 9, the Sovereign's phaser type has never been stated, despite Type 12 being bandied about everywhere except the movies and shows. The producers may want to go with the Sovereign and Prometheus using Type 11 or Type 12, because their main, dorsal arrays are about a third or fifth the length of the Galaxy class's.


To my knowledge, that is not canon. However, your sentiment is right, in that I think the ability of the Defiant to dodge shots is highly overrated, as when it was attacked by larger vessels, the larger vessel's attacks generally hit without much difficulty.

As I pointed out above, that isn't really the case, except against smaller vessels. I think the Galaxy class would win thanks to the combination of higher energy reserves and the Defiant's limited firing arcs. That last thing is important, even though the Defiant is more maneuverable, the Galaxy class can maneuver more freely because it doesn't need to worry about heading as much in order to fire. One thing never shown in games is the ability of the main arrays to fire in just about any direction, even backwards. Those secondary arrays on the Galaxy aren't to fill in blind spots, although, there are a couple small ones, they're actually there so the combat section has something to fight with when the saucer is separated, because the cobra head main array can't fire backwards since it's blocked by the hull. You'll notice that Voyager has very few secondary arrays, it's because its main arrays have decent, all around, firing arcs, too.

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/2590/voyagerrearfirefromfronbj4.jpg

Generally, I agree with the rest of what you said on the other other ships.

I disagree with many of your assertions.

For example we do have canon evidence for much of what you claim there is no canon evidence.

As for refits, the Enterprise (NCC 1701) had two major refits in its first 25 years of service, one was a weapons upgrade before Pike took command and the other was the one we see on the screen. During Kirk's 5 year mission there were no refits or modifications as far as we can tell in canon.

Your knowledge of DS9 cannon is pretty lacking too in respects to the Defiant. She was built in 2366. She was one of three prototypes for a new warship class vessel meant to head off the Borg. She was considered overpowered in her engines and power systems and nearly destroyed herself. She was mothballed until the Dominion appeared and Sisko asked to have the ship deployed there.

We see in 2373 the USS Valiant, which is not one of the prototypes but a vessel that had been built in 2372 after the Dominion threat emerged. She did well against a Cardassian Battle Cruiser however both ships were critically damaged in the engagement. Only the fast actions of the crew allowed the Valiant to repair her systems and finish off the cruiser. The Defiant on the other hand survived battles with similar ships of the Cardassians with relatively minor damage.

After the destruction of the prototype Defiant, the Sao Paulo is moved to DS9 and later renamed Defiant. Based on comments from the crew we can tell that she clearly was not as maneuverable as the original Defiant. This most likely the result of modifcations to her power and engine systems that had caused problems in the prototypes. She was built in 2375. She did have extensive shield upgrades and there were some console upgrades etc from the prototype, the main shield enhancement was to ward off the Breen devices though and not heavier shielding.

In respect to the Enterprise-D there is plenty of canon evidence that Jordi Le Forge continually modified both minor and major systems aboard her. Many of these modifications were later incorporated into other Galaxies. We don't know the full extent of his modifications though it is clear he had modified the warp core and propulsion systems, I suspect he modified many other systems.

There is even the canon evidence of the replacing of consoles and then the return of the older style consoles. For example Enterprise A in Star Trek V had touch control consoles entirely, whereas in Star Trek IV they had been knobs, levers etc. In Star Trek VI it was a combination of both. While many remained as touch controls, there was also several consoles changed back to the Star Trek IV look. Obviously whatever these consoles did the newer systems proved unreliable and were changed out. This is also born out in the difficulty Mr. Scott has in fixing all the new systems as depicted in those movies.

There is also canon evidence that the early Star Fleet maintained relatively few starship designs, it is true in later series we see a greater variety. I was using examples from Kirk's age and what was true then may not be true now, after all it is true the Enterprise-D underwent a couple of refits during Picard's mission while the Enterprise did not under Kirk's 5 year mission. Perhaps lessons learned along the way. It could also be more a fact of their missions, Kirk was on a Deep Space Exploration Mission primarily and Picard's ships was used more for diplomatic missions enabling it to stay in contact with Star Fleet more often. Thus there could have been greater varieties in the capabilities of older hulls than would be seen in newer hulls.

We have no indication of how many failed designs there are. But there is evidence that there were starships designed to test new technology in Canon. Principal of these would be the Excelsior class which was built to test transwarp drive. Built to withstand the vigors of the transwarp she proved a durable ship and even though her experimental drives failed they found it simple to refit the class with standard warp and continue. (Though later in Janeway's time they would learn how to use Transwarp drive). There is also the abandoned Enterprise design that was used in initial promotional material for The Motion Picture.

[Lions77]

Okay, so shorter range, but more punch thanyour average phaser,and thus still a great weapon for what it is.

[Roberto]

Okay, so shorter range, but more punch than your average phaser,and thus still a great weapon for what it is.

That I agree with - it does hold more punch than a standard type x phaser array. It would shatter a Intrepid pretty easily I would say.

[busbydaniel]

Personally, I think you need to look at the type of ships and there size. The Defiant is effectively a Destroyer, not the fastest ship in the fleet but armed to the teeth with the heaviest weapons. The Galaxy Class Starship is a Battleship and we even hear Riker call the Enterprise this on a number of occasions. The Intrepid I would say is a Light Cruiser, Very Fast but as we see in the first episode Caretaker, Torres says "neither of us has enough firepower to stop that ship" which suggests an Intrepid Class ship wasnt built with firepower in mind and considering she only carries 40 or 50 so torpedoes would also suggest this.

Destroyer's are relatively common class of warship that carries immense firepower at the sacrifice of speed. We know the Defiant class is fast but compared to the Intrepid and Galaxy classes it is slow. So in essence I would say the Defiant is a cost effective gun-ship, thats probably why you see quite a few of them quite quickly after the original prototype is introduced. The Battleship or Galaxy Class ship is a rare and unique breed, Very Powerful and Very Expensive to build. Like the old Dreadnought battleships of WW1 they were armed to the teeth and could easily out gun any destroyer. Im guessing the Galaxy Class could defeat the Defiant class as it is bigger, much more expensive and also seems to be the benchmark of the fleet. You hear Jake SIsko say that the Dominion Dreadnought is three times the strength of a Galaxy class ship, if Defiant was more powerful why didnt he say a Defiant class ship. This suggest Galaxy class is the benchmark of the fleet.

My opinion is Galaxy ---> Defiant ---> Intrepid

[Interdictor]

Galaxy classes are definatly more powerful than Nebulas. Outfitted properly with a combat pod, the Nebula would probbly come close though.

[Swiftus27]

Destroyer's are relatively common class of warship that carries immense firepower at the sacrifice of speed.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

Smallest to largest:
Frigate
Destroyer
Light Cruiser
Cruiser
Heavy Cruiser
Battlecruiser
Battleship

DDs are fast, agile, and carry a decent amount of firepower for their size. Defiant is basically an over enlarged fighter. They are weak on defense.

[Boone]

My opinion is Galaxy ---> Defiant ---> Intrepid

This level of firepower is probably correct.

From the Valiant episode we see the Defiant though a destroyer is the equivalent of a Cardassian Heavy Battlecruisers. Battlecruisers are really in the WWII sense stripped down battleships made for speed. Thus the Galaxy class which was a Battleship would be stronger. I also agree that the Intrepid was more an explorer, armed enough to defend itself but not enough for major military action. The Defiant would be stronger than it militarily.

[Interdictor]

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

Smallest to largest:
Frigate
Destroyer
Light Cruiser
Cruiser
Heavy Cruiser
Battlecruiser
Battleship

DDs are fast, agile, and carry a decent amount of firepower for their size. Defiant is basically an over enlarged fighter. They are weak on defense.

In Star Trek at least, the "catagory" a ship falls into has less to do with it's size/mass and more to do with i'ts primary role. How WELL it can perform that role is often determined by size/mass however. Oh, and as a nitpick: the Federation doesn't field Destroyers, Battlecruisers or Battleships. Their ships may be equivalent to such vessels used by threat species but they don't officially identify them as such. For instance, the Sovereign is a match for an enemy battleship, but it's classified as a "Heavy Explorer" (I've even seen it classified as an "Enhanced Deterence Cruiser" in one place).

As fot the Defiant - it's a Heavy Escort. And it DOES have impressive defenses......for it's size. It's shields may not be the strongest but the Ablative Armor makes up for quite a bit. And it's size and maneuverability also helps a lot too in letting it avoid some attacks.

Like Riker once said....."It's a tough little ship".

[busbydaniel]

In Star Trek at least, the "catagory" a ship falls into has less to do with it's size/mass and more to do with i'ts primary role. How WELL it can perform that role is often determined by size/mass however. Oh, and as a nitpick: the Federation doesn't field Destroyers, Battlecruisers or Battleships. Their ships may be equivalent to such vessels used by threat species but they don't officially identify them as such. For instance, the Sovereign is a match for an enemy battleship, but it's classified as a "Heavy Explorer" (I've even seen it classified as an "Enhanced Deterence Cruiser" in one place).

As fot the Defiant - it's a Heavy Escort. And it DOES have impressive defenses......for it's size. It's shields may not be the strongest but the Ablative Armor makes up for quite a bit. And it's size and maneuverability also helps a lot too in letting it avoid some attacks.

Like Riker once said....."It's a tough little ship".

You are totally correct here in terms of ship classification. I think it is because Starfleet is meant to be seen as an instrument of peaceful exploration and not warfare, even though defence is on their mandate. Classifying ships Battlecruiser and Destroyer would really go against the image of peaceful explorers. However, Starfleet still needs to bite back when necessary so there ships are the equivalent of other warships just covered up with non-warfare classifications, this is suggested in the DS9 episode where they introduce the Defiant, Sisko says officially its an Escort vessel, unofficially the Defiants a warship.

[starbuck1771]

Previous Star Trek games have left me saying "What?" to Ship balance. Obviously the show doesn't help much since it does crazy stuff like show the Defiant rip through a few dozen Cardassian and Dominion ships while making me doubt the manliness of the Galaxy-class ships.

Defiant vs Galaxy:
Most games have the Defiant as a sort of powerful, agile scoutish type ship with little armor or shields which seems to go against the show. However I'd be pretty annoyed if the Defiant could easily destroy a Galaxy ship. In my mind a Galaxy-class ship could probably take out a Defiant-class ship but would take pretty decent damage from the battle. However I've talked to people who swear on their mom's grave that a Defiant would eat up a Galaxy based on what the show shows (which is an OP'd Defiant and the Enterprise getting almost owned several times by single captial ships).

Intrepid vs Galaxy:
Another issue. I like to think of the Intrepid as significantly weaker than a Galaxy-class ship. Again, some trekkers demand that the Intrepid-class is almost equal if not stronger. This is a crazy IMO. It's faster and more mobile and that's about it.

Ship balance! I hope it is good and makes sense. :P

Each type of ship has their strength and weakness. Each ship is setup according to it's purpose. The Galaxy class was constructed for Research & Exploration, The Defiant however was built for combat hense the reason it is smaller, more agile, and has more firepower. So realy the ballance realy isn't ship to ship but fleet wide.

[Interdictor]

The Galaxy class was constructed for Research & Exploration.

The Galaxy class is an Explorer. Because they can encounter virtually any situation (including many threatening ones), and because they often conduct multi-year missions far from Federation space, they contain a wide variety of systems, and they are also often Starfleet's most heavily armed vessels.

The Galaxy class has 11 type X phaser arrays and 2 photon torpedo launchers (each able to simultaneously launch 10 independently-targetable torpedoes). Add a phaser array and photon torpedo launcher when the ship is seperated. That seems to be pretty heavily armed to me.

[busbydaniel]

The Galaxy class is an Explorer. Because they can encounter virtually any situation (including many threatening ones), and because they often conduct multi-year missions far from Federation space, they contain a wide variety of systems, and they are also often Starfleet's most heavily armed vessels.

The Galaxy class has 11 type X phaser arrays and 2 photon torpedo launchers (each able to simultaneously launch 10 independently-targetable torpedoes). Add a phaser array and photon torpedo launcher when the ship is seperated. That seems to be pretty heavily armed to me.

I think your right I think Explorer is just Starfleets way of hiding it's true class.

Explorer = Battleship
Escort = Destroyer

Just my thoughts...

[KO_Gilligan]

The Galaxy class is an Explorer. Because they can encounter virtually any situation (including many threatening ones), and because they often conduct multi-year missions far from Federation space, they contain a wide variety of systems, and they are also often Starfleet's most heavily armed vessels.

The Galaxy class has 11 type X phaser arrays and 2 photon torpedo launchers (each able to simultaneously launch 10 independently-targetable torpedoes). Add a phaser array and photon torpedo launcher when the ship is seperated. That seems to be pretty heavily armed to me.

I love the Galaxy class, yes it is not a battleship. But I think it is the formidable behemoth of the fleet. From what I have now heard it was due for an upgrade, which I was saying all along. Then it would lay waste to any Sovereign or other Battle Designated Federation Ship

[ReynoldsXD]

The Galaxy class was constructed for Research & Exploration


Er, no.

SOME galaxys were constructed for research and exploration, namely the first 6 of the inital 12 ship batch.
The other 6 from that batch were fittet for war, since as it happened there was a war at the time.

Please do not generalize ship classes, especialy ships that assumed so many roles over the history of st.
The galaxy is a prime example. The first ships were the best explorers out there, but at the end of ds9 the federation has introduced numerous other ships that would fullfill the same roles, without being a large vesel like the galaxy is.
When the federation builds any new galaxys one can assume they will be made for war. Just to have them in case you need them.

The federation in tng was very very different from the federation at the end of ds9 and voyager.

In TNF the fed was about to boldy go where they havent been before or havent reealy looked at before, they had no clue what would lurk out there....

The Voyager/ds9/nemesis Fed has had borg invasions, dominion war, rough times with the klingons, romulan conspiracys and such events can reshape a organisation like starfleet.

The need for big guns was made sufficiently clear after all and ships as big and complex as glaaxy class vessels surely arent fit for exploration anymore. they will be fitted for war, because they might be needed.
Leave the exploring to the newer, more compact ships.

So, if you argue about ships in sto: remember that the galaxy does not seem to have become a better place since nemesis.
The klingons are rattling the cage, the borg are squirimg around.

No galaxy built with that in mind will be an explorer. It will be a warship. (and basing both the defiant and galaxy of that time to have the same acces to technology, the galaxy will win because it has more stamina)


Even explorers will most likely be well armed.

[Interdictor]

The need for big guns was made sufficiently clear after all and ships as big and complex as glaaxy class vessels surely arent fit for exploration anymore. they will be fitted for war, because they might be needed.
Leave the exploring to the newer, more compact ships.

Galaxy's aren't fit for Exploration anyomore? That's what they were built for and are still pretty new ships.

No galaxy built with that in mind will be an explorer. It will be a warship.
Starfleet did not turn into a military organization overnight. They are still an organization dedicated to peace and exploration. The reason the Galaxys built during the war do not have their full scientific/exploration systems were because they were left out in the rush to get combat-worthy ships in the field. After the war starfleet can go about installing the science and research systems.

In any case - the Sovereign class looks to take the place as the Federation's most heavily armed ship, and yet even the Soverign isn't a dedicated warship - it too is an explorer.

Even explorers will most likely be well armed.
Yes indeed they are - for reasons I explained above.

[Swiftus27]

Aside from the forementioned defiant, a ship that is really in its own class.... it was a cancelled project that was brought back for limited production. That ship was specifically made to combat the Borg.

Pretty much size does dictate firepower in starfleet. DDs are always supposed to be picket ships and escorts. They are there to get close, harrass and get out of combat. They are significantly cheaper to build and man than all capital ships.

One ship of a smaller class may have more firepower but we all know that the shield generators, power plant, and other command/control of these ships are significantly smaller. The Defiant class couldn't take 1/10th the pounding a Sovereign could.

[starbuck1771]

Galaxy's aren't fit for Exploration anyomore? That's what they were built for and are still pretty new ships.


Starfleet did not turn into a military organization overnight. They are still an organization dedicated to peace and exploration. The reason the Galaxys built during the war do not have their full scientific/exploration systems were because they were left out in the rush to get combat-worthy ships in the field. After the war starfleet can go about installing the science and research systems.

In any case - the Sovereign class looks to take the place as the Federation's most heavily armed ship, and yet even the Soverign isn't a dedicated warship - it too is an explorer.


Yes indeed they are - for reasons I explained above.

Exactly. Just because they eventualy were used in the war and such does not negate what they were designed for. Hence the reason only the first six galaxiy class ships actualy had names.

[Bruno1986]

What people don't understand, is the ship design before and after the frist borg attack.
Before the borg attack the fed did consider building ships for combat, but after the borg attack the federation quickly reconised this and started to design combat ships. (i.e defiant)
while before the ship which was design for combat was the akira class.

But they also decide to upgrade all the defense systems in all the fed ships, so the ship after the borg attack might have combat considerations , which would make them inheratly stronger than the ships before.
but there are exceptions, the galaxy class might been build for exploration but it was also a formidible battle ship.

[Swiftus27]

What people don't understand, is the ship design before and after the frist borg attack.
Before the borg attack the fed did consider building ships for combat, but after the borg attack the federation quickly reconised this and started to design combat ships. (i.e defiant)
while before the ship which was design for combat was the akira class.

But they also decide to upgrade all the defense systems in all the fed ships, so the ship after the borg attack might have combat considerations , which would make them inheratly stronger than the ships before.
but there are exceptions, the galaxy class might been build for exploration but it was also a formidible battle ship.

Very good point. The Saucer/nacelle/secondary hull setup was basically scrapped after the borg attacked. Everything was brough a lot closer together. We can only speculate because it is to give a smaller target and be less vulnerable like the old klingon cruisers were.

[naynayz]

Previous Star Trek games have left me saying "What?" to Ship balance. Obviously the show doesn't help much since it does crazy stuff like show the Defiant rip through a few dozen Cardassian and Dominion ships while making me doubt the manliness of the Galaxy-class ships.

Defiant vs Galaxy:
Most games have the Defiant as a sort of powerful, agile scoutish type ship with little armor or shields which seems to go against the show. However I'd be pretty annoyed if the Defiant could easily destroy a Galaxy ship. In my mind a Galaxy-class ship could probably take out a Defiant-class ship but would take pretty decent damage from the battle. However I've talked to people who swear on their mom's grave that a Defiant would eat up a Galaxy based on what the show shows (which is an OP'd Defiant and the Enterprise getting almost owned several times by single captial ships).

Intrepid vs Galaxy:
Another issue. I like to think of the Intrepid as significantly weaker than a Galaxy-class ship. Again, some trekkers demand that the Intrepid-class is almost equal if not stronger. This is a crazy IMO. It's faster and more mobile and that's about it.

Ship balance! I hope it is good and makes sense. :P


Before we start comparing there are some inherent dangers to comparing the defiant to other defiant class starships. The defiant has a cloak and ablative armor. Some things that are not standard issue the defiant got because of it being the only ship stationed at DS9 so far away from federation support. Yes the defiant was a good ship but the first one went down like a ***** ( I will edit myself thank you ;) in the dominion war which is why the USS Sao Paulo was made and then redesigned in response to the breen drain weapon, there were changes made to it again (particularly the shield generators). So it really depends on which defiant you have.

[naynayz]

Very good point. The Saucer/nacelle/secondary hull setup was basically scrapped after the borg attacked. Everything was brough a lot closer together. We can only speculate because it is to give a smaller target and be less vulnerable like the old klingon cruisers were.

Yes exactly, and that is also why the nebula started receiving weapns pods instead of sensor pods to sit on top.

[Sythian]

LOL! Now that will be the day....oh, but then again a Bird of Prey took out the Enterprise D so I guess anything is possible.

Yeah, but that BoP was using an exploit. :p

[Interdictor]

Yeah, but that BoP was using an exploit. :p

OMG!!!!! HAXXORZ!!!!! :D

[starbuck1771]

Yeah, but that BoP was using an exploit. :p

Nah not an exploit. Us Romulans are just better then the humans. :eek:

[Swiftus27]

Yeah, but that BoP was using an exploit. :p

Darn Klingon 'sploiters.

If you negate a ship's shields and its shields are its best attribute, of course it isn't really considered a fair battle.

Also, was it a B'rel or one of those larger BOPs that the sisters were using?

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Heh, I go camping for the weekend, and we get this... Should learn me to part from my internetz... } ; = 8 )

Anyway, I haven't had near enough time to read through everything, so forgive me if I miss arguments or go over things that have already been presented several times. As the tech specialist and primary stats developer of The Legendary Generations mod for ST: Legacy, a mod dedicated to creating stats and gameplay as close to canon as possible, and because I simply enjoy doing it, I have done a LOT of research on ship stats and combat capabilities (you should see the spreadsheets I have), so I can give you a pretty thorough, and (if I do say so myself) a pretty acuruate analysis of the questions presented (that being Galaxy vs Sovereign vs Defiant vs Intrepid).


First, all Starfleet ships are designed to be explorers and/or science vessels. One of Starfleet's primary mandates is exploration and the study of the universe, and all of its proper starships (excluding transports and other support ships) are designed and equipped to perform such operations, with only a bare handful of exceptions that you could probably count on your toes without taking off your shoes.

However, the question at hand deals primarily with Starfleet's other mandate: the military defense of the Federation. Despite its peaceful, scientific and explorative nature, Starfleet is also a military organization, and generally a fairly competent one at that. As such, and because the galaxy they live in has a great many threats that can only be handled by military force, every single one of the Federation's starships is equipped for the purpose of military defense (even the Oberths, though their armament is primarily for self-defense and utilitarian purposes rather than full-fledged combat). As such, military designations can be assigned to their starships based on the role and capabilities of the starship, even if they aren't specifically used in the canon (though there is evidence to suggest that they are).

The four ships in question cover four different ship classifications, three being similar and two being capital ships. The Galaxy is, without question, a Battleship. She is the largest ship in the fleet, and when she launched in 2363, she was the most advanced starship in the fleet. She has the largest and third largest arrays in the fleet (the Nebula has the 2nd and 4th largest arrays), giving her the biggest 'guns' of any particle weapon mounted on any ship ever fielded in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, save Borg ships and the big Dominion dreadnoughts. Her big arrays are GINORMOUS, a third longer in total length than the entire ship itself! (the dorsal array, that is, the ventral array is not as long, and is roughly the same length as the Galaxy.) Even with Type-X emitters, compared to the Sovereign's Type-XII emitters, which are both stronger and narrower (i.e. you can put more in the same length of array) the Galaxy's big array is more powerful than the Sovereign's big dorsal array. Ships like the Negh'Var have greater energy weapon firepower than the Galaxy, but only because they mount multiple weapons that can fire simultaneously (the Negh'Var actually has 11 or 12 forward-mounted disruptor cannons). The Galaxy has only two torpedo launchers, yes, but they are aech capable of firing pre-loading and burst-firing 10 torpedoes at a time, giving her a total salvo of 20 photon torpedoes. By comparison, the original configuration of the Sovereign had 4 burst-fire-4 launchers and 1 single-fire launcher, giving it a total photon torpedo salvo of 17 torpedoes. Without the Quantum torpedo launcher, the Sovereign is out-gunned by the Galaxy, even though she was launched 8 or 9 years after the Galaxy (depending on when, exactly, the USS Sovereign put to space). Even post-refit, the Sovereign's total photon salvo is 27 torpedoes, only 7 more than the Galaxy could put out at launch (which was some 12-16 years prior, depending on when, exactly, the Sovereign was refit, putting the Galaxy up for a refit herself, especially considering the fact that the Sovereign got one). Without the Quantum torpedo launcher, the Galaxy out-guns the Sovereign, especially when you consider the fact that the Galaxy has fired full-charge blasts from both big saucer arrays, her belly array and both pylon arrays simultaneously, where as the Sovereign has only fired one beam at a time, even against the Borg (the only exception being the single-emitter-discharge 'porcupine blast' blind fire sequence in Nemesis).

The Sovereign is a Battlecruiser. It is smaller, lighter, faster and more maneuverable than the Galaxy, with less but roughly comparable firepower (until the Galaxy gets refit to the latest standards, anyway... Upgrading to Type-XII emitters would increase the Galaxy's big arrays' power by a factor of 2.2). The Sovereign's phasers are Type-XII phasers, yes, but the big arrays are much shorter than the Galaxy's, and when it comes to phaser arrays and linked emitters, the number of emitters is key. The more emitters you have, the more emitters that can be linked together to make a single, compound emitter, and the more power you can discharge in a single beam. The Sovereign does have belts of Ablative Armor, and some other unknown armor type, over critical areas (and yes, they are only belts of armor, not full hull coverage), but that is nothing that couldn't be applied to the Galaxy. The same goes for the Sovereign's regenerative shield generators, and the Galaxy actuallly has a lot more room for shield generators than the Sovereign, especially after the abandonment of the civilian population idea (which all the producers seem to agree was bad idea, and have suggested that it was an experiment that failed). The Sovereign is no slouch, and she does have a small margin of superiority in firepower, and significantly superior shields and armor endurance than the original configuration of the Galaxy, but the Galaxy is the Battleship, and with upgrades that, for the most part, would be relatively simple, the Galaxy would more than out-gun the Sovereign (same goes for the Nebula, actually). The refit Sovereign would still be able to give the refit Galaxy a run for her money, but she wouldn't have the hitting and staying power to match the Galaxy (though she could out-maneuver and out-run her).


The Defiant is a Pocket Battleship. She's not a capital ship, she's too small for that, but she sports the firepower of a heavy cruiser, and the shield and hull endurance of a light or medium cruiser, in the spaceframe and with the maneuverability of a fast frigate or corvette. WIth her Quantum torpedoes, she has the same torpedo salvo as a Galaxy class, though with her much smaller spaceframe, she undoubtedly has far fewer torpedoes to fire. She also has powerful pulse phaser arrays, but they do not equal the Galaxy's big arrays, especially when the Galaxy fires them in combination. The Defiant also only has little more than half the shield strength of a standard Galaxy, and while she has a very strong and durable spaceframe and thick, total-coverage AA belt, her compact size makes a single penetrating hit more likely to cause critical damage, and she cannot have the same level of system redundancy, because she simply doesn't have the same amount of space. The Galaxy also puts out a lot more power than the Defiant, between her larger and more powerful warp reactor, and 28 fusion reactors (to the Defiant's 6). The Defiant is much more manevuerable, but she sill took many hits from the Lakota's old-style ball turrets, and Starfleet's phaser arrays have demonstrated superior accuracy to turret-style cannons. Coupled with the superior firepower of the Galaxy's big arrays, the Defiant would take several powerful hits very quickly.


Aaaand I'll have to get into the rest of the Deffie and the Intrepid after I get home. My time in the office at work is done.

[Sobekeus]

The Defiant was the first warship that StarFleet has ever had commissioned. It is perfectly reasonable that a ship of war can kick the ass of a ship of peace when given equal technology, similar training, and StarFleet battle doctrine.

Traditional StarFleet vessels are not slouches, but the Defiant was the first designed purely as a combat ship.

[Kinjiru]

Heh, I go camping for the weekend, and we get this... Should learn me to part from my internetz... } ; = 8 )

Aaaand I'll have to get into the rest of the Deffie and the Intrepid after I get home. My time in the office at work is done.

Wow, you know your ships Ilithi. I actually feel like I learned something. :)

[KO_Gilligan]

Aaaand I'll have to get into the rest of the Deffie and the Intrepid after I get home. My time in the office at work is done.

Thanks Ilithi.... It is contributions such as this that have taken Legacy into being such an awesome game.

An awesome post,
and I am not Surprised at your conclusion, or your vast knowledge.

[Pliskin]

I think a non-dominion upgrade Galaxy would probably have trouble with a Defiant.

My understanding of the Defiant program, wasn't that the ship was meant to be the "ultimate Borg killing machine". It was to make a smaller, easier to produce, purpose-built escort ship.

They weren't meant to stand toe-to-toe with an upgraded Galaxy or the in-development Sovereign. They were more focused on functioning in numbers.

That being said, the Sovereign is definitely at the top of the pecking order. The Galaxy was still originally designed as an exploration ship. Vast amounts of its interior structure were designed for civilians, and I'd be willing to bet that many of the advancements in materials and structural design (heck, even the superior warp-field geometry of the sovvy) wouldn't be applicable to the Galaxy design.

[TheMasterpiece]

I think a non-dominion upgrade Galaxy would probably have trouble with a Defiant.

My understanding of the Defiant program, wasn't that the ship was meant to be the "ultimate Borg killing machine". It was to make a smaller, easier to produce, purpose-built escort ship.

They weren't meant to stand toe-to-toe with an upgraded Galaxy or the in-development Sovereign. They were more focused on functioning in numbers.

That being said, the Sovereign is definitely at the top of the pecking order. The Galaxy was still originally designed as an exploration ship. Vast amounts of its interior structure were designed for civilians, and I'd be willing to bet that many of the advancements in materials and structural design (heck, even the superior warp-field geometry of the sovvy) wouldn't be applicable to the Galaxy design.


The galaxy was still extremly powerful though. during the TNG series they seemed to only build a few and they were a sort of city ship. some superpower you really didnt mess with. defiant is a small weak ship with a strong offense.

[Roberto]

Wow, you know your ships Ilithi. I actually feel like I learned something. :)


Man, I say the same thing several post back (in much less detail) and he steals all my thunder!

J/K Dragon, lol. Always good to see you pop on these. :D

[Kinjiru]

Man, I say the same thing several post back (in much less detail) and he steals all my thunder!

J/K Dragon, lol. Always good to see you pop on these. :D

Heh, sorry man, I can never keep up with all of the posts on a brazillian page thread.

But you is teh smart too. :D

[Roberto]

Heh, sorry man, I can never keep up with all of the posts on a brazillian page thread.

But you is teh smart too. :D

lol! Thanks.

[Pliskin]

The galaxy was still extremly powerful though. during the TNG series they seemed to only build a few and they were a sort of city ship. some superpower you really didnt mess with. defiant is a small weak ship with a strong offense.

Oh definitely, the Galaxy is an extremely powerful ship. But TNG era, they were somewhat underpowered, and lacking many of the upgrades that were in the Dominion-War fast-production models. I'm not saying that a Galaxy would lose outright. But personally I think a pre-war Galaxy would be more 50-50 with a Defiant. Sans shield upgrades, upgraded phasers, added arrays, and quantum torps, a Defiant class is going to be packing quite a punch in comparison. Post Dominion War, the Galaxy will win much more easily.

I think it was mentioned elsewhere, but when the Federation realized they had a serious lack of larger vessels, they ramped up production on the Galaxy space frames and pushed them out of the ship-yards without scientific or sufficient civilian crew facilities. Basically, they pumped out upgraded Galaxy's without the the bits they didn't need if they were going to be in a fleet battle. They then intended to complete them after the war.

But the Federation definitely had ramped up its production of both the Defiant and the Galaxy classes, as evidenced by the Sao Paulo, and the entire fricking combat Wing of Galaxy class ships that Sisko ordered around during the Dominion War. (That makes the fanboy in me drool a bit) But the very fact that production of both was continued implies that the two serve very different roles in the fleet.

[USS_Parallax]

Lore wise there's only been about a dozen Galaxy-class ships. 3 or 4 have been destroyed and they've pretty much stopped production of them in favor of Sovereign-class ship designs which would likely see a much wider release.

[Pliskin]

Lore wise there's only been about a dozen Galaxy-class ships. 3 or 4 have been destroyed and they've pretty much stopped production of them in favor of Sovereign-class ship designs which would likely see a much wider release.

Don't mean to step on your toes, LOL, but that's not entirely true to my knowledge. In several of the DS9 fleet battles we've seen 12 or so Galaxies on-screen at once. Apparently they were even grouped together in combat wings during engagements.

I think in one of the tech manuals (non-canon, but a good place to jump off of), there was a first run of Galaxies that were completed, then a second run of just the frames which were kept in mothballs. Judging by the sheer number of Galaxies that were around in the Dominion War, its entirely possible all those mothballed frames were used as well as the production of new frames.

The Sovereign also lacks the deep-space exploration capabilities of the Galaxy. Its basically an unfettered warship in "friendly" guise. So while at first glance the two might seem to overlap in mission parameter, that's not entirely true. The E-E served as more of a diplomatic envoy, much to Picard's chagrin. He would've rather been out exploring.

[USS_Parallax]

Don't mean to step on your toes but the most we've seen in the same battle has been 5 during the retaking of DS9. Also I get my info from source books and stuff which are marked as canon by the guys who own Star Trek.

[DangerousFat]

I personally wish, that within reason, all ships in STO be basically the same power level. If I want to use a Defiant, why should I be forced to use a "less powerful" ship because it's what I like? If you want to use a Galaxy or Sovereign, that's great, but for all intents and purposes, they should just be nearly equal. Let players upgrade them, add more phaser arrays, more torpedo launchers, faster engines, etc. Maybe there's a balance? Maybe it's a 3 or 4 way battle between sensors, engines, weapons, and shields.

Also, as was mentioned, the crew has a big impact on things. Maybe ships are upgradable within reason and within a range for that specific class of ship, but as your crew gets more powerful the differences in ships becomes less and less meaningful. The Next Gen crew or DS9 crew could probably fight the Borg with a Constitution and do some serious damage.

As far as Defiant vs Any other ship... my understanding is that it has a full-sized warp core, a powerful one at that in a much smaller ship. So, shouldn't there me more power available? The Galaxy class ships are so huge, they probably spend half of that energy generated by the reactor to simply run everything.

Anyway, that's how I feel.

[Roberto]

I personally wish, that within reason, all ships in STO be basically the same power level.

Thats a terrible idea because it takes away a several dynamics to the game aside from a prestige value.

[Pliskin]

Don't mean to step on your toes but the most we've seen in the same battle has been 5 during the retaking of DS9. Also I get my info from source books and stuff which are marked as canon by the guys who own Star Trek.

The only "canon" in trek is the tv, movies, and to a lesser extent, the scripts. Everyting else is considered official and stands unless its overridden by something seen on-screen.

The Enterprise, Galaxy, Odyssey, Magellan, Trinculo, Venture, Challenger and Yamato are the known Galaxy class vessels. The ships featured in DS9's Galaxy wing all lack registries and names.

The Challenger is especially of note because it was the ship La Forge commanded in the future of "Timeless" and "Endgame"

Its entirely possible the Magellan is one of the "unmarked" Galaxies, as could be the Challenger.

Either way, we're talking about 11 ships that we know of existing. Of the 8 still around at the Dominion War, 5 were assigned to a single fleet engagement, when we know for a fact there were other lines besides the one at DS9. It makes little-to-no sense for all available Galaxy class ships to be in one fleet and one alone.

There's more than 12 Galaxy's, simple enough.

[Genixx]

the defiant was built to pack a big punch. when you take on the borg you want something that packs a huge punch, is small and fast. but i doubt in an extended fight she could take the bigger class ships 1v1. especially if you have a good captain that doesnt jump to conclusions about his enemy and the ship size. most of the captains that looked at the defiant just LOL'd until they started taking a few hits. the dominion especially didnt take that ship serious and look what happened to them. :) Defiant was built for combat.

im very curious to see how they handle ship balance in this MMO. however, i hope they make it so that even a moon shuttle conductor could defeat someone thru strategy instead of a straight up fight. :)