A starship is a starship is a starship.

[Aslan_chShran]

Some people are wondering how an old Constitution class starship can hold it's own against the newer starships of the galaxy, much less participate next to a Galaxy or Sovereign class Federation ship. Well the answer is simple - the galaxy is a HUGE place, and starships, much like cars, can be fine tuned and even upgraded with new parts- in the regard to starships: upgraded shielding, weapons, comunication/scanning systems, etc.

Yes, I know in the TV show you never saw the older ships flying around, but they were always busy building or re-using models they designed for that time period, but it makes SENSE what with the enormous SIZE of the galaxy that Starfleet would continue to recommision older ships. After all - what is so different between a Galaxy Class and a Constitution Class? Heck, you can retrofit it with a Holodeck too! The most important thing are the engines, hull, shields and weapons and all of those can be upgraded. You already have a ship that can fly through space and was exploring strange new worlds a half century before! Technology has improved, but not so much that they would scrap the old ships so quickly.

So, yes - a spaceship is a spaceship is a spaceship - and I can't wait to captain my Constitution Class! After all, the design is legendary :)

[bluehair]

In the TNG I saw an excelsior class starhip in there a couple of times. Then there was the Stargazer, even if it was salvaged. Starfleet must like flying classic ships. Though based on the ship tiers these older starships are on the low end of the scale, compared to newer ships, so I think they fit in quite nicely.

If you also look at the Klingon Bird of Prey the design hasnt changed since its debut the TOS movie, and they look old and falling to pieces whenever you see them. Yet are still widely used, and still something to be feared.

[rick273]

Then there was the Stargazer,

but if you also remember from that episode all the crew referred to it as a piece of junk ... a relic that stood no chance what so ever against the enterprise.

novelty ...but still junk

Rik

[Aslan_chShran]

but if you also remember from that episode all the crew referred to it as a piece of junk ... a relic that stood no chance what so ever against the enterprise.

novelty ...but still junk

Rik

That's because the Stargazer hadn't been retrofitted. Some Ferengi found the barely operational Stargazer dead in space.

[Forgotten-Nemesis]

I think the only limitation of an old starship design like the TOS Constitution is the structural design and the availability of internal space. I don't know how far canon supports this but I believe the evolution of starship design has been all about achieving higher warp speeds and effieciency, and to a lesser extent, manouverability at sublight in combat, etc. Hence we have evolving hull designs, taking on organic, streamlined shapes.

Saucer sections went from being round to maximise internal space, to elliptical, then wedge shaped. I'd say the evolution reflected the improving knowledge of warp field theory.

There was the shortening/widening of the neck section and later the complete elimination of a neck in ships like the Sovereign, Intrepid and Prometheus. I'd say the neck section was important for housing a big m/am reactor for power generation and as ships got larger, this became unnecessary and possibly detrimental as a point of structural weakness. I'm surprised we never saw enemy ships aiming torpedo strikes at the neck section to shear off the saucer section, rupture the warp core and deliver a quick end to the Constitution class and similar ships. I think the same can be said of the nacelle pylons which went from thin and lean in the constitution variants to thick and stubby in the Excelsior and beyond.

I have no doubt that a TOS Conny could be refitted with 25th century tech to make it on par with an Akira class or whichever (or indeed a TOS Conny built from the keel up with all new tech), but I highly doubt it would last as long after the shields went down due to the sheer flimsiness of the ship's structure.

[Canean]

I extremely doubt a TOS Conny could be brought up to compete with the Akira class. That ship was designed with warfare and the borg in mind. If you ask me, sure the Connstitution class hull could be upgraded but you run into the problem is the size of the hull. That ship is dimunitive by later years standards. The newer ships were bigger for a reason.

For arguments sake you could say that the defient was a small ship with lots of weapon power but I would argue back that it had little to no creature comforts. Most of it was to just fit more stuff in. You can look up the mass and length information on Memory Alpha and there is a huge difference between the two.

[Forgotten-Nemesis]

I think the Conny could be modernized as a capable light patrol cruiser but I doubt it could handle much more.

Also remember the Conny was designed as the Federation's main frontline ship in times of war, capable of going toe-to-toe with the D7 and later the K'tinga. Much in the same way the Galaxy class was meant to act as a frontline warship when the situation called for it, although the Constitution fared much better in that respect.

[Canean]

Right it was designed for its time. The Hull size would be just way to small to be refitted again up to the levels were talking about in 2409. Its at least 130~meters smaller than just the Akira. A lot small compared to the hulls of the Soverign or Galaxy. Also you brought up my favorite ship the Akira. I just had to refute the idea the conny would be competitive to that level of ship :).

[Bond]

i think it can be redesigned, like said earlier with the bird of prey.... but it will cost a lot! with upgrading.... u will be fine tunning it for a long time to come!

[Forgotten-Nemesis]

Right it was designed for its time. The Hull size would be just way to small to be refitted again up to the levels were talking about in 2409. Its at least 130~meters smaller than just the Akira. A lot small compared to the hulls of the Soverign or Galaxy. Also you brought up my favorite ship the Akira. I just had to refute the idea the conny would be competitive to that level of ship :).

The Akira is ugly. Yeah, I said it! :D

[Canean]

That's it! Out side! We're going to rock it like Kirk vs the Gorn. Confusingly fight until we both walk away resolving nothing!

[Forgotten-Nemesis]

That's it! Out side! We're going to rock it like Kirk vs the Gorn. Confusingly fight until we both walk away resolving nothing!

I already have a hollow log, some charcoal, sulfur, saltpeter, some flint and a whopping big sharp chunk of diamond. I'll see you there!

[Cpt.Power]

I don't think a stock Constitution can be equiped with actual modern armament or science stations. Everything has it limits ;)
The Conny hasn't enough place for the whole new stuff.... Better shields and weapons means also better warpcore and so on.


and the refitet Conny in STO is the Excalibur Class.

[cmahecha]

Well, yes and no. An older starship with new technology will probably hold up pretty well, but still new designs will still be far superior. They are designed learning from the old designs and mistakes, so they will be better.

Even if you take a car from the 60s and upgrade it with state of the art technology, a modern car will still run much better. Better aerodynamics, tramsmission, gerbox design, etc.

[Canean]

Problem with the car analogy is the fact that cars actually have become a lot smaller than they were. So they were going in the opposite direction star trek has. The conny refit was 300m with mass of under a million tons. The Akira is 450m~ and displaces over 3million tons. (Credit to memory alpha)

[Cpt.Power]

Problem with the car analogy is the fact that cars actually have become a lot smaller than they were. So they were going in the opposite direction star trek has. The conny refit was 300m with mass of under a million tons. The Akira is 450m~ and displaces over 3million tons. (Credit to memory alpha)


yeah you can't also put an V10 with 450hp in a 40 year old car...

[cmahecha]

Problem with the car analogy is the fact that cars actually have become a lot smaller than they were. So they were going in the opposite direction star trek has. The conny refit was 300m with mass of under a million tons. The Akira is 450m~ and displaces over 3million tons. (Credit to memory alpha)

Yeah, it's just an analogy but can be applied to anything. Planes are bigger, faster, more energy efficient than planes from 10-20 years ago. Either way, I would be really hard pressed to find any single piece of technology that would work better (or at least at the same level) refitting an older model than just using a newer model.

[WinterPark1701]

I'm really looking forward to commanding my Defiant Class. I also have a soft spot for the Nebula and Ambassador Class.

[Vorus]

Speaking canonically, TOS era ships aren't all that far behind TNG era ships in terms of survivability and weapons outputs. I could list a great deal of evidence, full of mathematical calculations that prove this thesis quite thoroughly, but for now I'll just say that the difference in terms of weapons, shields, and armor of a Constitution compared to a Galaxy is somewhere between 10-30 times different. Considering the size difference as well as the age difference, that isn't bad at all.

So, since canon supports this idea so well to begin with, it isn't unreasonable at all for a video game to shrink that margin further, to the point that a "modernized" Constitution would still be a useful cruiser in the 24th century.

[Aslan_chShran]

I extremely doubt a TOS Conny could be brought up to compete with the Akira class. That ship was designed with warfare and the borg in mind. If you ask me, sure the Connstitution class hull could be upgraded but you run into the problem is the size of the hull. That ship is dimunitive by later years standards. The newer ships were bigger for a reason.

For arguments sake you could say that the defient was a small ship with lots of weapon power but I would argue back that it had little to no creature comforts. Most of it was to just fit more stuff in. You can look up the mass and length information on Memory Alpha and there is a huge difference between the two.

You could also argue that a Klingon Bird of Prey hasn't changed much either, including size. Yet we have seen 3 Birds of Prey tearing the Galaxy Class Enterprise to shreds. If the rickety (yes, rickety - have you seen inside one of those Klingon birds?) Birds of Prey can be refitted with shields and weapons to face modern ships, older Federation ships like the Constitution most definately can as well! :)

[Canean]

You could also argue that a Klingon Bird of Prey hasn't changed much either, including size. Yet we have seen 3 Birds of Prey tearing the Galaxy Class Enterprise to shreds. If the rickety (yes, rickety - have you seen inside one of those Klingon birds?) Birds of Prey can be refitted with shields and weapons to face modern ships, older Federation ships like the Constitution most definately can as well! :)

Well there isn't much improvement you need to do to a ship with the survivability of a leaf in a forest fire. Bird of Prey to me has always been the overpowered weapons on a small ship idea (defiant ripped it off?!). That and I blame the creators for not being very creative with the Klingon ships till DS9. Got to love the Negh'var.

[Kalistan]

That's because the Stargazer hadn't been retrofitted. Some Ferengi found the barely operational Stargazer dead in space.

Why bother to retro-fit a piece of junk - yes a starship is a starship is a starship, but seriously why bother to retro-fit an old, outdated model with inferior engines, hulls specs, weapons and everything and anything else you can think of. Technological development is fluid, top end specs over 100 yrs ago mean nothing.

For arguments sake think of World War I, 90 years ago, british generals (not the troops) thought it was still a good idea to wear bright red uniforms and slowly walk towards the machine guns. Unsurprisingly, a lot of people died.

Retro-fit an old POS? no. Build new versions, utilizing same shape, quite possibly. But that's all it will be. Brand new, high spec hull, shields and engines in the same old shape for no other reasons than nostalgia. If that's enough for you then great, u get your constellation class, but the actual TOS Enterprise would have been destroyed within minutes of encountering a combat situation in the TNG 'verse. Retrofited or not.

Technology waits for no one

[AchillesHeel]

[...]but it makes SENSE what with the enormous SIZE of the galaxy that Starfleet would continue to recommision older ships.
I don't think the size of the Federation is a relevant factor. Unlike contemporary navies, Starfleet operates a lot of general-purpose ships that are designed to operate more-or-less autonomously. Task forces and fleets only seem exist as operational units in unusual circumstances. Furthermore, I think the available resources and population of the Federation can more than support Starfleet.

After all - what is so different between a Galaxy Class and a Constitution Class? Heck, you can retrofit it with a Holodeck too! The most important thing are the engines, hull, shields and weapons and all of those can be upgraded.
I'm not an engineer, but I think it's often easier to design a whole new [XYZ] than it is to upgrade an old one. In the case of Star Trek, we know that Starfleet ships from the 2370s began to use duranium hulls, which simply wouldn't be something you could refit a ship with. If refitted Constitution-class ships are to be pulled out of a mothball fleet, and if they're supposed to make some kind of sense within the lore, they should be Tier-1 ships, like the Miranda.

Technology has improved, but not so much that they would scrap the old ships so quickly.
That's a question. Since the Age of Sail, I don't think any naval ship has ever had a service life of 130 years (ships in the Ancient World probably had essentially the same design for long periods - the trireme was the main warship of the Mediterranean for about 300 years, for example). I think that in the U.S. Navy today, ships that are 40 years old are about ready to be decommissioned. I don't believe there's a single active-duty ship remaining from the Second World War, anywhere in the world. There are some antiques, such as U.S.S. Constitution and H.M.S. Victory, that are still technically in service, for sentimental reasons.

EDIT: Speaking of the Constitution, I heard on the radio this morning that neighbors of the ship are complaining about the twice-daily firing of a cannon, which is part of the ceremony for raising and lowering the flag each morning and evening. :p

So, yes - a spaceship is a spaceship is a spaceship - and I can't wait to captain my Constitution Class! After all, the design is legendary :)
And I think that's really the only reason for it to be included in the game. IMO, any attempt to explain how the existence of active-duty Constitution-class ships 'make sense' is doomed and is missing the point. :D

[Aslan_chShran]

lol it's kind of funny - even though my ultimate goal is a a Sovereign class, my dream is captaining a Constitution (as long as a I can refit the bridge lol). I really like the "old" ship designs, old being in quotes because I absolutely love the NX class that Captain archer commands in the Enterprise show. Now that's a ship that would be hard to refit (polorized hull plating instead of shields and Warp 5 Engine being the largest culprits)! But I <3 that ship :)

edit: further, I believe they would still retrofit and use older starships because constructing one starship, much less a huge fleet is extremely expensive and time consuming. To build a new Fleet for a galaxy-wide organization every 10-20 years is crazy. Of course they would have their top-of-the-line ships, and have plenty of them for various assignments and conflict situations, but I bet you they would have plenty of older ships still in service.

[Canean]

lol it's kind of funny - even though my ultimate goal is a a Sovereign class, my dream is captaining a Constitution (as long as a I can refit the bridge lol). I really like the "old" ship designs, old being in quotes because I absolutely love the NX class that Captain archer commands in the Enterprise show. Now that's a ship that would be hard to refit (polorized hull plating instead of shields and Warp 5 Engine being the largest culprits)! But I <3 that ship :)

If you like the NX just go with the Akira. The creators of Enterprise said they basically took the Akira and made it old.

[Kalistan]

lol it's kind of funny - even though my ultimate goal is a a Sovereign class, my dream is captaining a Constitution (as long as a I can refit the bridge lol). I really like the "old" ship designs, old being in quotes because I absolutely love the NX class that Captain archer commands in the Enterprise show. Now that's a ship that would be hard to refit (polorized hull plating instead of shields and Warp 5 Engine being the largest culprits)! But I <3 that ship :)

Totally agree, the sheer amount of tech issues on that ship really made u feel that it actually was the first gen of earth ship to make it out into deep space. Shame the writers got lazy - lets put everything and anyone we can think of in easy range of the first deep space explorer and expect people to accept that the Klingon empire homeworld (Qo'nos), Romulan empire, fergengi marauders etc. were all right next door - doesn't make a lot sense from a spacial perspective. ie. Earth and Vulcan surrounded by enemy empires from the get go - 8,000 light years expansion without stepping on their toes?!? yeah right.

But on topic, problems for NX class retro-fit would be same for TOS Enterprise. Difficult at best, pointless at last...

[Aslan_chShran]

But on topic, problems for NX class retro-fit would be same for TOS Enterprise. Difficult at best, pointless at last...

I have to disagree - the NX would not be worth the refit because of a total lack of shields and a primative Warp-5 reactor. The Constitution already goes Warp 7 or 8 which is plenty fast and shields can be upgraded unlike polorized hull plating.

[rabidchocobo]

I think the only limitation of an old starship design like the TOS Constitution is the structural design and the availability of internal space.

I have no doubt that a TOS Conny could be refitted with 25th century tech to make it on par with an Akira class or whichever (or indeed a TOS Conny built from the keel up with all new tech), but I highly doubt it would last as long after the shields went down due to the sheer flimsiness of the ship's structure.

Almost every component of a ship can be overhauled. But the framework of the ship isn't a component. It's the . . . frame of the ship. If you remove the chassis of a car to replace it with something newer, you're basically creating a new car. New metal alloys are being used to build the skeleton of the ships. New ship architecture is used to make their structures more ablative in nature. I don't think this is the kind of thing you can mount new things on and expect them to run like new, on ships they were meant to be run on.

It's fine that STO has a Constitution. They said they would break canon when they needed to in order to make their universe work. You can't have a wide reaching game encompassing so much Trek lore and not have the 1701 in there somewhere. So they put it in there, and called it an upgrade. I can live with that. I know they would've lost people if they hadn't done it. And heck, anything that makes people talk is good, no matter what the nature of the talking. All propaganda is good propaganda, and it's propaganda time.

[Kalistan]

I have to disagree - the NX would not be worth the refit because of a total lack of shields and a primative Warp-5 reactor. The Constitution already goes Warp 7 or 8 which is plenty fast and shields can be upgraded unlike polorized hull plating.

Only for the sake of argument, and for a nerd-tastic discussion, but the old Warp 7 or 8 would mean nothing in the "today" scale of Warp speed, the whole system was redesigned and old warp 9.9 became equivalent of Warp 1 or something. Was going to insert a big quote from Alpha wiki here but outside of math specialists it's a load of nonsense.

I think the whole idea was to avoid running into the same species as before in TNG after TOS by explaining that current ships travelled a lot faster than the old ones ( a mistake the writers for Ent: seemed to forget, shame shame, loved where it was going) so basically a DS9 runabout could have passed the TOS Enterprise while it was at full speed, whilst barely ticking over.

So we're talking a full overhaul of all internal systems to cope with higher power requirements, new hull to withstand both higher power requirements and speed limitations, doesn't leave a lot left aside from internal spacial elements, and why not build a new internal framework that isn't 100 yrs old and riddled with thousand's of light years of fatigue?

Now don't get me wrong, I would personally love to fly around in an NX shaped Galaxy or Sovereign class spec'd ship they kindly built for me, but sadly it doesn't look like they're going to let me....

[squidheadjax]

With all the Mirandas and Excelsiors running around in TNG and DS9, it's about time that the Constitution class got similar love.

[Zoned87]

I think most people who play the federation side are going to want a Constitution, including myself.

I only hope they expand the ability to upgrade 1 tier to 2-3 tiers so I can keep using it.

[Canean]

Most is a bit much of a claim. I can say with a lot more certainty that MOST fed players want other ships.

[Zoned87]

Most is a bit much of a claim. I can say with a lot more certainty that MOST fed players want other ships.I imagine the Galaxy will be the second most popular.

[Aslan_chShran]

so basically a DS9 runabout could have passed the TOS Enterprise while it was at full speed, whilst barely ticking over.


Ok, you will have to find me PROOF on that one, I don't believe a DS9 runabout could beat Kirk's Enterprise. We're talking about larger space for larger engines and now suddenly a shuttle with a teeny engine can outrun an older Constitution? Gimme proof on that one :p

[Valios]

I want the original excelsior. she is elegant, refined and muscular at the same time. a beautiful ship. My love.

[Kalistan]

Ok, you will have to find me PROOF on that one, I don't believe a DS9 runabout could beat Kirk's Enterprise. We're talking about larger space for larger engines and now suddenly a shuttle with a teeny engine can outrun an older Constitution? Gimme proof on that one :p

My attempts to find proof have met with failure and so I must bow out of this one. Seems to be a mental breakdown on my end (I hate math).

According to my research, if both were travelling at Warp 5 (max for a runabout, it would be going 90x speed of light faster than TOS Ent at 215x vs 125x), but since we're discussing Warp 8/9 which is unattainable for a runabout, Ent would clearly win. (But TNG Ent at Warp 9 = 1,516x speed of light, vs 729x for TOS Ent). And to think, i've had that incorrect info in my head for more than 20 yrs, wonder where it came from......getting old.

But in a blatant (and unsuccessful) attempt to save face I did notice that the TOS Ent nearly flew apart everytime it went to high warp (but didn't, thanks to Scottie), so I'd still rather have a new one :D

[Aslan_chShran]

But in a blatant (and unsuccessful) attempt to save face I did notice that the TOS Ent nearly flew apart everytime it went to high warp (but didn't, thanks to Scottie), so I'd still rather have a new one :D

lol good call - except that there's plenty of TNG episodes where the Enterprise would have fallen apart if not for Geordie! :P

Seriously though, its funny how often these "top of the line" ships are *almost* falling apart.

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

Okay, the Constitution class (2240s) was introduced roughly 130 years before the Sovereign class (2370s), give or take maybe a decade or two. (170 years in STO since it's 2409)

That's like this (1885):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benz_Patent_Motorwagen

versus this (2005):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Veyron


Now of course Starfleet could make a brand new ship with all the modern amenities that just happens to be essentially the exact same shape as the Constitution, and then call it a Constitution class, but I don't think that any original Kirk-era vessels are still flying around unless they're mobile museums.


Although I will concede that the B52 Stratofortress is expected to be in service at least until 2040, and it was constructed first in 1952 (80 years) so it might not be out of the question that sustainability is extended even further in the future.

[syberghost]

I think the Conny could be modernized as a capable light patrol cruiser but I doubt it could handle much more.

Also remember the Conny was designed as the Federation's main frontline ship in times of war, capable of going toe-to-toe with the D7 and later the K'tinga. Much in the same way the Galaxy class was meant to act as a frontline warship when the situation called for it, although the Constitution fared much better in that respect.

Keep in mind that the Klingons were still using the K't'inga in the Dominion War, too.

[crazy_guy]

One problem about retrofitting such a old class is the warp engine:

The conny warp engine was a Warp 7 engine that means high speed was warp 7.
So the hull geometry is designed to generate a warp field that can accelerate the ship up to warp 7.
If you put for example an Intrepid warpcore (thats a Warp 10 engine - theoretical max warp 10 realistic around 9.9975) into the conny there is still max warp 7.

So even if you complete retrofit a conny it will maybe have some punch but every BoP can easily escape.

[Hardac]

I imagine the Galaxy will be the second most popular.


Note to self: Will be destroying lots of Galaxy class fedrat ships, be sure to buy more soda and chips.

[Canean]

Note to self: Will be destroying lots of Galaxy class fedrat ships, be sure to buy more soda and chips.

Sometimes some of these fed players make me want to roll up a Klingon.....

[Tain]

The Problem with the connie is one the other ships do *not* have. It was explicitly stated, on screen, to be a completely retired design. Discontinued. Not in service. At all. The Excelsior, Miranda, and Oberth never suffered this fate. Its somewhat theorized in fan circles that there was some kind of massive flaw in the connie refit program that resulted in extremely short service lives and permanent retirement of the entire design.

So yes, the Constitution class is the only one that WOULD be out of place completely.

[Zoned87]

I wonder how many hundreds of ships will be named Enterprise. I've been trying to think of a name for my ship but have been having trouble coming up with something original, but also something that wouldn't seem out of place in the star trek universe. I want a witty ship name, so that I can blow up klingons in style.

I'm hoping I will be able to beam tribbles aboard klingon ships food storage.

Sometimes some of these fed players make me want to roll up a Klingon.....Aww thats harsh. :(

[Drake1444]

It's not so much the design of a ship as it is the age. If you build a Constitution class with the latest technology and using the latest materials in its hull construction, the ship could very possibly perform quite well against ships of the same size. Sure there would be a few drawbacks; like the fact that it wasn't exactly designed to be super nimble (the Sovereign/Intrepid could probably fly rings around it).

As for age, if you were to continuously upgrade and refit an old Constitution it's performance would be more limited than if you just built a new one. It wouldn't matter it you were to completely gut it, leave it an empty shell and then replace all the systems newer ones. The hull would still be aged and eventually start to weaken.