Relative speeds...how significant is it in the combat model and balance?

[cocoa-jin]

Light vessels have been shown in canon to be exceptionally fast at sub-light compared to their larger counter parts.

The Defiant, BoPs and other light crafts have been shown in canon to speed by, weaving, dodging and swooping in at high relative speeds. These hulls exhibit high closure and disengagement speeds. Makng them perfect for lightning strikes, Boom and Zoom tactics.

But in the demos it seems that even the BoPs are just lazily circling about the Miranda. Is this the AI using light, high speed hulls as circling buzzards at low throttle or are the relative speeds that insignificant.

One of the Eurogamer vids showed the Miranda come to a full stop and the BoP engaging it just lazily came in behind and bumped ever so gently. Its like the relative difference between minimal throttle(just barly crawling along) and max throttle(full impulse) is next to nothing. Am I wrong? Is AI just matching speeds that well?

Or are small vessels being forced to operate within the same combat doctrine of large vessels? Is speed even considered an important tactical feature...or is the difference between max and min velocity so small that it doesnt matter? Will be fored to operate my light vessel as essentially a miniature version of the large capital ships? Is the benefit of being small going to be nothing but the ability to turn tighter(the merits of tight turning in combat was dispelled over 70yrs ago...its all about speed and the ability to quickly change one's plane of travel)?

Tight turns just leave you inside the opponents effective weapon's range, while making you hard to hit(but lets be real, phasers have a high success rate). Speed and out of plane maneuvers get you in and out of effective range of the opponent while making you hard to hit...aspects absolutly key for small light combat vessels.

[cocoa-jin]

Marcosore posted a link to a new Ten Ton Hammer interview...it just so happens to touch upon the very questions I've asked...interesting

here it is: Ten Ton Hammer: Star Trek Online Space Combat Q&A (http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/76234)

Discuss...tactics, implementation/application, etc

Im a bit disappointed in the speed vs resource allocation limitations...I would have liked the ability to operate at higher combat speeds without being totally non-combat viable. Im ok with reduced shields, even reduced weapons recharge rates...but no weapons and light shields are just a bit restrictive for my tastes. I feel the mechanics may have been skewed a bit toop much to discourage high speed and force the slow paced combat.

Once again, I'd like the devs to leave some options. Let those who are comfortable with higher speeds have the option to operate with tactics condusive for speed. The increased pace would only make things harder for us(the speedster)...not the other player.

[Frostbourne]

As long as it doesnt turn into Legacy's model where impulse speeds are the same for all ships of the same class. Damn i hated that.

[Batleh]

IMHO in the series/movies, maneuverability of a ship is directly proportional to it's status as a hero vessel and the whims of the writer. In DS9 we see the defiant and other "smaller ships" swooping around and going pew pew... we see larger ships being ponderous... kind of... other scenes show "Larger" vessels quite easily keeping pace with the smaller brotheren. Also, if you remember, in multiple battle scenes Miranda's (And even Excelciors) are shown keeping up quite nicely with Defiant (until they get splatted of course). Then again, in other scenes in the movies and TNG/VOY, larger ships are shown moving about rather rapidly as well... the Sovereign class Ent-E does pretty well by itself in all 3 movies... and the Scimitar (who by all rights outclasses a Sov in size) easily fly's circles around Ent-E. The only place we really see the slow deliberate pacing and combat is WoK between Reliant and Enterprise, but again, part of that was for dramatic effect.

As for some of the videos shown off... well, IMHO, most of the people who were messing around in the game didn't have a clue how to control it... they'd seen the interface for about 12 seconds before 3 BoP's come roaring in :-) As to why the BoP settled on the Miranda's tail and blasted away... if your target isn't moving, is leaving it's open shield exposed, and isn't shooting back very hard... why not sit there and blast it? In some of the cases the Miranda pilot just ran... and going back to "Miranda's keep up with Defiant" from DS9, It would seem to me that their relative speed is about right.

[cocoa-jin]

IMHO in the series/movies, maneuverability of a ship is directly proportional to it's status as a hero vessel and the whims of the writer. In DS9 we see the defiant and other "smaller ships" swooping around and going pew pew... we see larger ships being ponderous... kind of... other scenes show "Larger" vessels quite easily keeping pace with the smaller brotheren. Also, if you remember, in multiple battle scenes Miranda's (And even Excelciors) are shown keeping up quite nicely with Defiant (until they get splatted of course). Then again, in other scenes in the movies and TNG/VOY, larger ships are shown moving about rather rapidly as well... the Sovereign class Ent-E does pretty well by itself in all 3 movies... and the Scimitar (who by all rights outclasses a Sov in size) easily fly's circles around Ent-E. The only place we really see the slow deliberate pacing and combat is WoK between Reliant and Enterprise, but again, part of that was for dramatic effect.

As for some of the videos shown off... well, IMHO, most of the people who were messing around in the game didn't have a clue how to control it... they'd seen the interface for about 12 seconds before 3 BoP's come roaring in :-) As to why the BoP settled on the Miranda's tail and blasted away... if your target isn't moving, is leaving it's open shield exposed, and isn't shooting back very hard... why not sit there and blast it? In some of the cases the Miranda pilot just ran... and going back to "Miranda's keep up with Defiant" from DS9, It would seem to me that their relative speed is about right.

I dont have an issue with BoP at 1/2 and Miranda at 1/2 being closely matched(though I dont believe they have to be exact)...I have a probelm if the difference between 1/4 impulse and 3/4 or full impulse is so small that a BoP at high impulse is just creeping by a Miranda at near stop. Where low impulse is walking and higher impulse is like walking with pep in your step.

I want to see a ship at 3/4 or full impulse absolutly blow by a ship at 1/4 impulse.

[Fatherfungus]

in battle sims of this type I find that during a fight...manuverability is king....at the end of a fight,
the speed you can do heavily DAMAGED is important.

your top speed all shiney and new? well might save ya a couple of minutes between missions
...maybe.


the point

top speed = who cares
manuverability = critical in battle
ability to move if critically damaged = live to fight another day

[Batleh]

I dont have an issue with BoP at 1/2 and Miranda at 1/2 being closely matched(though I dont believe they have to be exact)...I have a probelm if the difference between 1/4 impulse and 3/4 or full impulse is so small that a BoP at high impulse is just creeping by a Miranda at near stop. Where low impulse is walking and higher impulse is like walking with pep in your step.

I want to see a ship at 3/4 or full impulse absolutly blow by a ship at 1/4 impulse.

Well, if you look at the recent TenTonHammer interview here (http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/76232/page/2) Craig says:
Craig: So there are basically three different speed that you move in Star Trek Online. You travel at warp speed, and whenever you're at warp, you're in the astrometric view. That is, you're never in system space travelling at warp speed. Your fast mode when you're in system space is full impulse. It's kind of like putting all of your energy into your engines and so that, you know, you can fly around at faster speed. You can go between points of interest within a system, you can go out and explore that system at a little bit higher rate.

That being said, when you are at full impulse, all your power's to your engine, so you have very little to your shields, and none to your weapons. And transferring power over to them takes time, so you don't full impulse into combat. You pretty much full impulse kind of right out of range, let your systems charge back up again, and then go into combat. But, during combat, you're going at less than quarter impulse when you're going into combat. You can change your throttle, you can change your speed, you can still transfer energy to your engines so that you end up going faster. You get to the encounter, and then figure out how fast you're going to go to get into battle.

It sounds like in combat the difference isn't between 1/4 and 3/4's impulse... it's between 1/8th and 3/8's impulse - so unless you're dumping power from your weapons/shields or using some BO power, you're likely not going to go screaming past one another. Further into the interview he talks about other things you can do to play with your speed (ship mods etc) but I'm not really expecting Wing Commander or Starfleet Academy here... I'm expecting something closer to SFB.

[Dawgrin]

Another piece of this is going to be acceleration. Maybe a galaxy class ship can match the same absolute speed of a BoP at 3/4 impulse, but it takes it 10x longer to accelerate to that speed. In that case the quick turning and manuverability of a smaller ship, in addition to it's quicker acceleration would be very powerful. It would allow the smaller ship to move quickly in and out of fire range before the enemy can get off many shots, or to prevent weapons tracking systems from getting a lock at all.

[Fatherfungus]

lol

check out the all new

Star trek drag races !

lol

a BMW is a lot faster than an abrams tank.....but I would hate to have to fight it in one.

[cocoa-jin]

in battle sims of this type I find that during a fight...manuverability is king....at the end of a fight,
the speed you can do heavily DAMAGED is important.

your top speed all shiney and new? well might save ya a couple of minutes between missions
...maybe.


the point

top speed = who cares
manuverability = critical in battle
ability to move if critically damaged = live to fight another day

Your assesment is true if:
* you fight like a cruiser
* you fill the need or base your success on destroying the target at any cost

Not the case if:
* you are particpating as a support vessel for a group with larger vessels
* you value preservation of fleet assets over kill stats
* you plan to attack stratigically...when you hold the advantage in numbers, power, environment and positioning.

I may not be able to use speed in my BoP like vessel 1 on 1 against a Defiant...but I could against a weaker and slower vessel. I might as part of a group against a single cruiser, I might agaist a Defiant within the right environment.

But if I go into a slug-fest against everyting I run into...no, speed wont always work.

Sometime tactics is based in large part in making smart choices of who to engage and when...not just throwing your self head long into the first target you see or into a furball of fighting ships. Its essential that we have true options and diversity in tactics that also include the various ways to inititate and engage in a fight.

Every combat regime known to man relies on speed(except maybe subs...and even they use speed to get out of trouble). From naval ships, to aircraft, to armor, to foot soliders, to logistics...speed is life(it applies even to sports).

[Fatherfungus]

Yes, I have to agree

my observation is from a solo, or mono-e-mono point of view

[chrisdpurcell]

It sounds like in combat the difference isn't between 1/4 and 3/4's impulse... it's between 1/8th and 3/8's impulse - so unless you're dumping power from your weapons/shields or using some BO power, you're likely not going to go screaming past one another. Further into the interview he talks about other things you can do to play with your speed (ship mods etc) but I'm not really expecting Wing Commander or Starfleet Academy here... I'm expecting something closer to SFB.

Even at this "slower" speed, we're talking 5,218,750 - 15,656,250 miles per hour. This is one thing that's always bothered me about trek. Even small changes in impulse speed SHOULD be huge changes in actual relative speed.

It would make more sense to say that starship battle occurs at thruster speeds.

[cocoa-jin]

Being forced to engage at walking speeds is much too restrictive. I'd be more than willing to accept the impulse setting restrictions if it didnt kill my momentum.

If I could haul tail at 3/4 impulse, then switch to 3/8 impulse and power up combat systems while coasting in on my inertia, i'd be ok. But if switching to 3/8 is essentially slamming on the brakes then I'd feel like Im being gimped.

Perhaps they could add in coasting, so if you set a new impulse setting the ship spools down to the new speed. But if you double tap or hit another button, the ship "brakes" down to the new speed.

I'd be ok with maneuvers eating into the inertia more rapidly.

[Batleh]

Being forced to engage at walking speeds is much too restrictive. I'd be more than willing to accept the impulse setting restrictions if it didnt kill my momentum.

If I could haul tail at 3/4 impulse, then switch to 3/8 impulse and power up combat systems while coasting in on my inertia, i'd be ok. But if switching to 3/8 is essentially slamming on the brakes then I'd feel like Im being gimped.

Perhaps they could add in coasting, so if you set a new impulse setting the ship spools down to the new speed. But if you double tap or hit another button, the ship "brakes" down to the new speed.

I'd be ok with maneuvers eating into the inertia more rapidly.

They actually discussed that before in an interview (don't remember where exactly, forgive me) but an early model of the combat engine did that... and you ended up with everyone kiting, or it turned into a jousting match... both of which don't really seem to be much fun or very tactical to me.

Somewhere in the bowels of trek-tech I remember a psudo explanation about impulse drives and inertial dampeners - the inertial dampeners were always trying to get the ship to a rest state (dampening inertia) while the impulse drives were counteracting this - so you needed constant "thrust" from the impulse drives to keep your speed up. So yes, if you're cruising along at 3/4 and then pull power from your engines, you'd drop in speed... you could always turn off your inertial dampeners (in theory) but then any maneuvers you pulled would splat the crew... not a great recruiting tool :-)

Edit 2- BTW, your previous comment about speed being the basis for combat... that's true in a few cases, but mainly it's more about overpowering your opponents ability to defend his or herself. To use a naval analogy, If you're a fast little destroyer with a 5in gun and I'm a battleship with a 16in gun, sure, you can out flank me, out run me, etc... but you gun isn't really going to break through my armor... it'll hurt, it'll annoy me... and if you get REALLY lucky you might do some thing substantial, but all I have to do is land a solid volley and you're hulled. My guns are bigger, and have much greater range than yours... :-)

All other things being equal, speed wins... but all other things are rarely equal :-)

[cocoa-jin]

They actually discussed that before in an interview (don't remember where exactly, forgive me) but an early model of the combat engine did that... and you ended up with everyone kiting, or it turned into a jousting match... both of which don't really seem to be much fun or very tactical to me.

Somewhere in the bowels of trek-tech I remember a psudo explanation about impulse drives and inertial dampeners - the inertial dampeners were always trying to get the ship to a rest state (dampening inertia) while the impulse drives were counteracting this - so you needed constant "thrust" from the impulse drives to keep your speed up. So yes, if you're cruising along at 3/4 and then pull power from your engines, you'd drop in speed... you could always turn off your inertial dampeners (in theory) but then any maneuvers you pulled would splat the crew... not a great recruiting tool :-)

Edit 2- BTW, your previous comment about speed being the basis for combat... that's true in a few cases, but mainly it's more about overpowering your opponents ability to defend his or herself. To use a naval analogy, If you're a fast little destroyer with a 5in gun and I'm a battleship with a 16in gun, sure, you can out flank me, out run me, etc... but you gun isn't really going to break through my armor... it'll hurt, it'll annoy me... and if you get REALLY lucky you might do some thing substantial, but all I have to do is land a solid volley and you're hulled. My guns are bigger, and have much greater range than yours... :-)

All other things being equal, speed wins... but all other things are rarely equal :-)

Im not sure about the inertia dampeners theroy, but I think you made my point about speed. Speed is life, it doesnt gaurantee it, but its a constant amoungs the other variables of power, numbers, strength...all these things being equal, speed is life.

Also, Im not asking that my inertia remain intact...Im asking that it not instantly change my velocity state. In fact, if they let us coast, the interial dampers wouldnt need to work so hard.

But what i want is th eoption to have engagement tactic slike seenin DS9's Sacrifice of Angels. High relative speeds, higher closure speeds against targets chosig to move slow. Not only did the light vessels do it, but the Klingon Vor'chas used high speed to smash the Dominion formation from above. High speeds, BnZ salvos...even if it does mean some reduced shield strength.

Inertia Dampers are only at work during accelrations(changes in speed and/r direction). So if Im at 1/2 impulse the inertia dampers dont have to be operating/doing anything, only when i begin changing speed or direction. That certainly wouldnt mean forcing the ship to change speed faster...because the faster rate of change requires the dampers to have to work even harder.

Intertai dampers cant be why the ship slow or accelerate so quickly. in fact, inertia dampers allow for them to change rate quickly...but doesnt make it happen.

Also I think the kiting was do to being able to turn one way and continue in the original direction with little to loss in velocity. Im fine with eliminating that.

[rabidchocobo]

I think the BoPs just weren't trying that hard. I want to see them decloak, swoop in for a pass with distruptor flying, and recloak and move around for a 2nd pass. I'm sure "sit there and shoot" is just one of the possibilities with ships of that size, whereas for a larger ship, you might have fewer options.

[cocoa-jin]

I think the BoPs just weren't trying that hard. I want to see them decloak, swoop in for a pass with distruptor flying, and recloak and move around for a 2nd pass. I'm sure "sit there and shoot" is just one of the possibilities with ships of that size, whereas for a larger ship, you might have fewer options.

Its hard to soop at 1/4 impulse...unless the target i ssitting all but still. DS9: SoA implied that the Fed fleet engaged at 1/2 impulse...the Klingon slashing Boom and Zoom looked to be at the same speed. The relative speeds seemed pretty high.

Im not saying all fights should be that fast, not everyone wants or needs to use such high speed based tactics...but there should be an obvious relative speed difference whe someone decides to use tortise tactics against those of us using rabbit tactics.

Slashing runs are viable tactics. Alone(1 vs 1), slashing tactics mean nothing against an equally or greater classed vessel because the disengage time by the slasher doesnt necessarily allow for sufficient damage that cant be dealt with effectivly by the target before the slasher turns and engages again. But it is essential for group tactics against a stronger foe, or mixed fleet engagements.

4 BoPs on a Galaxy need to be able to slash/BnZ the Galaxy, because coordinated strikes can keep the pressure on the target to hinder its ability to repair and shrug off successive passes. There is no long disengagment time for the target because the BoPs are constantly bringing someone's weapons to bear on the target.

Without speed, we are forced to orbit the larger foe like mini-cruisers(we arent cruisers, dont make us fight like one), forcing us to endure his withering fire with no reprive.

Let speed tactics reduce combat values...reduce my overall/total shields, reduce the recharge time on my weapons...but allow me to manage shields with enough fidelity to run and boost just the arcs I want in order to conserve power. Dont power off my wepons, just increase there charge time...so I dont get as any weapon discharges. Just dont eliminate high speed combat options.

[scottage00]

Looking at the videos it looks more like the BoPs were coming in behind the Miranda on it's unshielded rear and then matching speed so that they don't overshoot their target. If the game doesn't have a raptor blowing past a galaxy class when at full throttle then the devs really aren't big fans of star trek, which I don't think is true.

[torrmega]

According to the details on the difference between science/tactical/engineering ships tactical ships have increased speed/maneuverability, but I expect it was partly due to the lack of moving and powered up level of the Miranda/s in demo's that make the BoP's seem slow It's also not at it's finished stage remember so expect the AI to change.

[cocoa-jin]

According to the details on the difference between science/tactical/engineering ships tactical ships have increased speed/maneuverability, but I expect it was partly due to the lack of moving and powered up level of the Miranda/s in demo's that make the BoP's seem slow It's also not at it's finished stage remember so expect the AI to change.

I understand its in the working...but we have to go by what we see. Im critiquing and providing my prefrences in which way it could and I'd like it go from where it is. Plus there is always the possibility we can provide insight and ideas the devs havent thought of.

I may be critical, but I try to never come off as an attack or insulting. Im passionate about certain things, but I try to highlight other options and perspectives. Its up to the devs do what they will with it.

[Batleh]

Let speed tactics reduce combat values...reduce my overall/total shields, reduce the recharge time on my weapons...but allow me to manage shields with enough fidelity to run and boost just the arcs I want in order to conserve power. Dont power off my wepons, just increase there charge time...so I dont get as any weapon discharges. Just dont eliminate high speed combat options.

Well if you read through the article, it pretty much says just that. If you want to drop power to your shields and your weapons, you'll get more speed.... It pretty much sounds like you can try your tactic... shields full front, drop power to weapons, off we go... just don't be surprised when I rake your weak backside with a full salvo and burns holes in your hull as you try and sprint away :-)

[crow11383]

You also must remember that the ships we saw for the demos are bare bones models with few if any mods. Hopefully as we acquire various subsystems and abilities we will be able to quicken the pace of combat close if not to our desires.

[coldflow]

We know different ships have different speeds, its stated in the ships section of the site that Escort ships have a bonus to speed and manueverability.

but

I wouldn't expect even the fastest ship to feel very fast or turn very sharply in combat.

If you raise the speed then you can't have combat that includes micromanagey things like shifting power about.

Also with combat tactics based on positioning, a slow pace (hard to get a good position, hard to get out of a bad one) makes for a more tactical game.
Fast paced movement (quick to get a good position or escape from a bad one) makes it become more of a dogfighter.

[cocoa-jin]

Well if you read through the article, it pretty much says just that. If you want to drop power to your shields and your weapons, you'll get more speed.... It pretty much sounds like you can try your tactic... shields full front, drop power to weapons, off we go... just don't be surprised when I rake your weak backside with a full salvo and burns holes in your hull as you try and sprint away :-)

Well of course I'd like to then re-inforce my rear arc as i pass over....the thing to remember is this...would I use this tactic one on one?

My problem lies in a concern that what speed the systems allows me to have wont be much, that speeds wont be differen/noticable enough to pull it off, that system managment wont have enough fidelity to pull off what I want to do.

Its all useless if I cant make the config changes quickly and even with one shield arc re-inforced and the others either at miimums or off(I'd like to experiment with shutting the side arcs down completly) and still limited to 1/2 impulseor less and no weapons up.

[cocoa-jin]

We know different ships have different speeds, its stated in the ships section of the site that Escort ships have a bonus to speed and manueverability.

but

I wouldn't expect even the fastest ship to feel very fast or turn very sharply in combat.

If you raise the speed then you can't have combat that includes micromanagey things like shifting power about.

Also with combat tactics based on positioning, a slow pace (hard to get a good position, hard to get out of a bad one) makes for a more tactical game.
Fast paced movement (quick to get a good position or escape from a bad one) makes it become more of a dogfighter.

I not talking about fast speeds and tight turns...it wouldnt be like dog-fighting(the way most imagine it) at all. What the Klingon wedge did in DS9: Sacrifice of Angles wasnt dog-fighting. It was Boom and Zoom. Come in fast, hit hard and press on in a straight line. Im talking about using people's own tactics and stuck in the mud approach to fighting against them...by not fighting the fight evrybody else is. Get them out of their element and unsure of how to approach my style.

So I wouldnt be turning at all while engaged. Everybody else doing thier flat turns would be much closer to dog-fighting then I would. Just because its slow doesnt make it any less dog-fighting(see WWI)...and just because Im trying to go fast certainly doesnt make my style necessarily more dog-fighting. I have so much to teach you guys :)