Is Starfleet the Military?

[Peregrine_Falcon]

Whether Starfleet is a military organization or not has been a point of contention on the forums since they were first opened. The first thing that you should know is that Gene Roddenberry, the creator of Star Trek, flew combat missions as a bomber pilot in World War II, and was a Los Angeles police officer for seven years. If he disliked the military he sure had a funny way of showing it.

So what exactly does Starfleet do, besides the obvious military stuff like patrolling the borders and fighting in wars? Well they explore, engage in diplomacy, conduct scientific and medical research, perform search and rescue operations, and undertake humanitarian relief missions. Basically, when Starfleet shows up they pretty much do anything that needs to be done. Surprisingly, most militaries of most first world nations do just exactly that as well.

Let's start off with exploration and maping. Admittedly the military doesn't do much exploration any more, because the Earth's pretty much been explored out. However in the past many explorers were military men. Magellan (first man to circumnavigate the Earth) was an Admiral in the spanish navy. Admiral Byrd, US Navy (first man to over fly the North Pole) was decorated several times for his bravery in combat during both world wars. Meriwether Lewis and William Clark were both officers in the US Army.

Well, what about diplomacy? Because of the speed of modern travel and communications, most diplomats nowdays are little more than functionaries or figureheads that are involved in daily details. Most diplomacy and treaties nowdays involve direct communication between the heads of state. However in Star Trek, much like during Earth's "Age of Sail", the travel and communication speeds ofter require that the man on the scene act as a formal representative of "King and Country." Because of this, Starfleet officers much like the captains and admirals of the British Empire, must often act as diplomats.

The militaries of many of the allied nations, but particularly the US Air Force and US Navy, conduct a lot of scientific and medical research. Right now doctors from the US Navy are in Thailand testing an AIDS vaccine that they developed. The Air Force is building rockets, and maintains its own small space program. The US Army is developing bipedal robots. Ok, plenty of scientific and medical research, and not all of it has to do with blowing stuff up.

I don't really think that I need to go into the search and rescue operations conducted by all of the branches of the military every year, so I'll move on to humanitarian relief efforts. After the tsunami that hit the asian continent in 2004, members of the US Navy and Marines were among the first people on the ground helping suvivors. Members of the US Army assisted survivors of Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans.

So basically the whole argument that "Starfleet isn't the military because Starfleet does so much more than the military does" is bunk. The militaries of the world today either do the things that Starfleet does or they used to but do not anymore because modern technology has effectively shrunk our planet.

Direct Evidence that Starfleet is the Military:
Craig Zinkievich said in an interview here (http://vault.ign.com/View.php?view=editorials.detail&id=249) that Starfleet is the military. Just as Gene Roddenberry was ToS's Executive Producer and wrote its canon, so Craig Zinkievich is STO's Executive Producer and writes the canon for Star Trek Online.
ToS "Where no Man Has Gone Before" and again in "Court Martial" Starfleet is referred to as "the service."
ToS "Tomorrow is Yesterday" Captain Kirk refers to Starfleet as a "combined service" when asked if Enterprise is part of the US Navy.
ToS "Errand of Mercy" Captain Kirk says, "I'm a soldier, not a diplomat."
ToS "Mudd's Women" Captain Kirk convenes a board of inquiry, something that only military officers can do.
ToS "Court Martial", "Menagerie", "Turnabout Intruder" and TNG "The Drumhead" Starfleet personel are court-martialed. The term court martial means a military court.
ToS "The Ultimate Computer" and TNG "Peak Performance" Starfleet vessels conduct wargames, because that's what the military does.
TNG "The Neutral Zone" Someone refers to Captain Picard's military career.
TNG "Chain of Command" it's mentioned that the UFP is a signatory of the Seldonis IV Convention treaty, which outlines how Starfleet must treat their prisoners of war, and how they must be treated as prisoners of war. Much like todays Geneva Convention treaty.
Star Trek: The Motion Picture - the Starfleet 'reserve activation clause' is mentioned. Doctor McCoy is required to report to Enterprise against his will, i.e. he is 'drafted.'
Star Trek: The Wraith of Khan - Scientist David Marcus specifically calls Starfleet "the military."
Star Trek: Insurrection - Starfleet Vice Admiral Matthew Dougherty is referred to as the military commander of a sector.

Indirect Evidence that Starfleet is the Military:
Starfleet fights in wars, because that's what the military does.
Starfleet apears to be based on the US Navy, using the same ranks names and traditions, as well as ship designations.
Starfleet doesn't have policies or rules, it has regulations and orders.
Starfleet doesn't have a legal department, they have a Judge Advocate Generals Corps. JAG, like court martial, is a term only used by the military.
Starfleet personel wear ribbons and medals on their dress uniforms, in the same location and manner of the US military.
In several episodes Starfleet personel enforce martial law. Martial law means military law, and it is enforced by the military.
In many episodes Captain Kirk often uses the term 'General Quarters.' This is the term that the US Navy uses for 'Battle Stations.'

Evidence that Starfleet is the NOT Military:
TNG "Peak Performance"a discussion between Captain Picard and famed strategist Sirna Kolrami.
Kolrami: "Captain Picard, it is my understanding that you initally resisted Starfleets request for this simulation.
Picard: "Yes."
Kolrami: "May I know why?"
Picard: "Starfleet is not a military organization, its purpose is exploration."
Kolrami: "Then why am I here?"
Picard: "With the Borg threat, I decided that my officers and I needed to hone our tactial skills. In a crisis situation it is prudent to have several options."

And in reference to that one piece of evidence that Starfleet is not the military, I want to say that I believe Captain Picard was voicing his opinion, and not the actual facts. Captain Picard, the explorer, the diplomat, the scientist, the historian, and the statesman was expressing his opinion in an argument against someone whom he obviously did not like. And it's possible that he even believes that Starfleet isn't a military organization, especially not when compared to some military organizations both past and present that do nothing but fighting and killing.

However, the militaries of the allied nations on Earth today engage in all of the activities (in a general sense) that Starfleet does. Allied militaries have and do participate in exporation and maping of the Earth, scientific and medical research, search and rescue operations, and engage in humanitarian relief activities. Certainly the military forces of other nations (such as Iraq or Saudi Arabia) do not do any of those things, but the fact that the US Navy conducts scientific research while the Chinese Navy does not, does not make the US Navy any less of a "purely military organization." And the fact that Starfleet also conducts those types of non-hostile operations does not make it any less of a "purely military organization."

So is Starfleet the military of the United Federation of Planets? I'll let you decide that. I will say that everything Starfleet does is also done by modern military organizations today, and I don't see anyone trying to argue that the US Navy isn't the military.

[Elta_and_Zletha]

I want to be the first to post on this, so putting in this filler response.

I'll edit later once i read the whole thing =)

*edit

Okay!

So maybe people know what my take is on Starfleet and the military and how passionate I get about this debate.

Though Peregrine_Falcon posted some good points, I tend to go off of Picard's statement. I don't think its a matter of opinion, I think it's fact. Picard is IN Starfleet, he should know what it is and what it isn't.

But another conversation that Peregrine_Falcon forgot to mention was the one between Captain Archer and Captain Hernandez.

Ent. episode "Home"-
ERIKA: So, did you get a chance to look 'em over?
ARCHER: Look what over?
ERIKA: My senior officer candidates. Any suggestions for Tactical?
ARCHER: You may want to find someone with more field experience, a MACO.
ERIKA: I'm not sure how I feel about a military officer on the Bridge.
ARCHER: If I were you, I'd talk to General Casey about assigning an entire squad.

So from this conversation, it shows that, at least in the 22nd century, Starfleet and the Military were seperate orginizations but working or serving with each other. So seperate though, that Capt. Hernandez didn't even want the military on her ship at all, just pure Starfleet personnel.

Later on though, by the 23rd and 24th centurties, I'm sure that Starfleet absorbed some if not all of military procedures and protocol, but that doesn't mean that they're still THE military.

Voy. episode "Thirty Days", Tom Paris talks about when he was younger, as soon as he graduated from high school he wanted to join the Federation Naval Patrol, but his father, Admiral Owen Paris, pressured him to serve in Starfleet.

Again, this could be shown to prove that the military and Starfleet are still seperate orginizations. If the Starfleet was indeed the military, then Adm. Paris shoudn't have cared if his son joined the FNP, because its "still Starfleet".

In fact, it seems that the Federation has it's own military oginization in some way (to include the Naval Patrol) but also inluding Starfleet as well.

[MyOwnSling]

I think the only point I would contend is the part on exploration. I think that is what really sets Starfleet aside from today's military. I don't think it is entirely accurate to characterize Starfleet as a military organization for that fact. However, to say they don't act as a military is false. They perform all of the duties our modern militaries do, as you have pointed out.

In short, I think that military operations is a subset of what Starfleet is and does but it does not entirely define Starfleet.

Edit: I got in the first non-filler response \o/

[elionbel]

I want to be the first to post on this, so putting in this filler response.

I'll edit later once i read the whole thing =)I want to be the first to contradict E&Z, so putting in a filler response.

j/k :)

<3

[JesseH21]

I believe starfleet is more of a "Paramilitary" organization, military like in many ways, but not quiet the same as a military, such as well, you dont see Starfleet officers saluting superior officers all over the place. starfleet might have been based on the military, but i think it evolved in purpose over the years into something more, but most the time all we ever really see are the military aspects.

[geodbdrunk01]

I agree Peregrine, very well thought out. Starfleet is the military arm of the Federation. It encompasses all the roles of our modern military (Coast Guard, National Guard, Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Etc.) as well as roles fulfilled by necessity during ages past. People may want to wax poetic about how Starfleet is a happy exploration club, but when the bullets start flying, they are the only defense the Federation has against destruction.

[MyOwnSling]

I believe starfleet is more of a "Paramilitary" organization, military like in many ways, but not quiet the same as a military, such as well, you dont see Starfleet officers saluting superior officers all over the place. starfleet might have been based on the military, but i think it evolved in purpose over the years into something more, but most the time all we ever really see are the military aspects.

I agree. This is essentially what I believe.

[1MGSIX]

Its a simple answer for me, I agree Starfleet is the military.

[geodbdrunk01]

Peregrine is absolutely correct though... every role of Starfleet has been fulfilled in our history by military organizations, not "paramilitary" organizations. Exploration, research, medicine, and other things not normally associated with the military are indeed within the scope of historical military activity.

[Siphaed]

Star Fleet is a military group designed with the best interests of the Federation, which is "peace through diplomacy" first and foremost before ever going into a militaristic action such as attacking and killing of any enemy is a last resort.

[Pyrceval]

Simple answer to the simple question...Yes. Or, better yet... Yes, Sir! :)

[lankyboy]

It's not quite the military, but it's definately not a civilian service, I don't think we quite have a term for it currently. It basically seems to deal with anything to do with space on an interplanetary scale i.e. planets trading with planets, providing mutual security and pooling resources for the greater good.

[sandman105]

I believe that Starfleets secondary function is military. Its Primary function is exploration.
Starfleet officers are still very military like in how they go about their duties and responsibilities. The very fact that they have officers is military. They call "Captian on the bridge", when the captain enters the bridge.
They have a chain of command which is military.

All these military aspects that Starfleet uses is to maintain a readiness for battle and to maintain a high lvl of dicipline for the huge responsibility of exploration and representing the Federation for when they come in contact with alien species, or military and diplomatic encounters.

[mufti09]

Huzzah, The One True Peregrine Falcon has returned, just in time to let junior members to look at the Things we know about STO thread (because the rest of us are to lazy to do so).:p

Anyways.

Yes, Star Fleet is like the Military/Navies of say the Golden Age of Exploration (say 1400s to the end of WW1) where, while there are formal treaties with actual diplomats when it can be achieved, for the most part it is going to fall to Star Fleet to do the grunt work before anything gets to that point. I think it is incorrect to look at how the modern era militaries operate and use that as the yard stick from which to measure Star Fleet with, since they are a fairly new development. For the most part I see Roddenberry looking at Star Fleet through the lense of time and how things have worked over that time period.

As to Picard, I think he is stating his (and the general population of the UFP) position based on his observation of his current time and place, much like how we view the military now, and how view it based on the Star Trek 'verse.

[Seancstew]

Star fleet IS the military, yes.

However, in order to toss some more fuel on the fire of debate..

The Coast Guard also has a rank structure, they also perform combat duties, and, they also do diplomatic missions, much like the Navy.

Yet, they are NOT a military organization.

[ibby1kanobi]

I've always held the position that Starfleet is the military arm of the Federation, for all of those reasons. I think though, that Starfleet is the military arm+everything else. I think that Starfleet was the creation of a single "arm", so to speak, that execute's all of the Federations will. Whereas we have 100's of different agencies here in the U.S., Starfleet does EVERYTHING for the Federation; exploration, combat, R&D, patrol, diplomacy, etc.

It's the Utopian view of a democracy.

[sandman105]

Star fleet IS the military, yes.

However, in order to toss some more fuel on the fire of debate..

The Coast Guard also has a rank structure, they also perform combat duties, and, they also do diplomatic missions, much like the Navy.

Yet, they are NOT a military organization.

They WERE a military organization.... Only recently did the government make them a government agency and not a military branch.

[Seancstew]

I've always held the position that Starfleet is the military arm of the Federation, for all of those reasons. I think though, that Starfleet is the military arm+everything else. I think that Starfleet was the creation of a single "arm", so to speak, that execute's all of the Federations will. Whereas we have 100's of different agencies here in the U.S., Starfleet does EVERYTHING for the Federation; exploration, combat, R&D, patrol, diplomacy, etc.

It's the Utopian view of a democracy.

However, when Starfleet first began, the Military was separate from them. so there is historical Canon that dictates that Starfleet was NOT formed as a military organization.

Also, Merchant marine ships have rank structures much like the Navy.

[wrussandrews]

No it was not. I do not think it is wise for me to elaborate further, at least not in a public forum!

The explanation is a powder keg.

[Rakos]

Starfleet is the military for the Federation. It just encompasses more than we're used to in our day and age.

[Profedius]

A well thought out and defined post. I think of Star Fleet much in the same way I think of NASA which is not a military organization but has many similarities to the military and works closely with them in many aspects.

Now if we enter the future and have encountered other intelligent space traveling life it is only natural that we would arm our space craft for defense and since any conflict would likely start in space NASA would be called on to defend our interests which could be seen as a military response, but that wasn’t NASA’s original mission. This is how I see Star Fleet it’s original mission was one of exploration and scientific discovery, but it was forced to expand it’s role in order to preserve the interests of the Federation. The fact that ranks are used from the beginning doesn’t really imply military as rank is nothing more then a way to define authority and keep order in a closed environment like that of a ship even oil tankers have captains.

To sum it up:

Is Star Fleet military? Not by design, but it serves that role when the need arises.

[Laphtiya]

While Starfleet had exploration as its key priority it would be silly not to assume that there is a military branch of starfleet that deals solely as a defense/strike force to protect the federation. Just look at Star Trek 6, when they were breefing the president on how to rescue Kirk, classic military thinking. So I'd have to go with the thought that there is a military branch to Starfleet as stated before Wrath of Kahn, Starfleet was called the military or was it? He never said Starfleet WAS the military, he just mentioned the word that suggests there was/is a military force in operation under the federation.

[SiskoBell]

A very thorough and well presented argument PF. But I think the whole argument on whether Starfleet is the Federation's military revolves around semantics. I think part of the problem stems from what some people view as the purpose of a military.

In my view, on a very basic level, one can say that a military fights wars, plain and simple. The complexity comes into plat when we look at what types of wars are being fought by that military and why. There are wars of aggression, wars of defense, wars of necessity, wars of convenience, etc.

So is Starfleet a military? IMHO, Starfleet is a military organization in the most basic sense. Starfleet exists, in part, to fight the Federations wars. Now, the Federation is an example of an ideal society, and thus Starfleet is supposed to be an ideal military. Therefore, Starfleet's military actions are always to be defensive and completely necessary. That means that all other non-military means will have been exhausted before Starfleet commits to armed conflict. And most important to that consideration, Starfleet never starts such a conflict. It always acts defensively.

I emphasized that military action is only part of Starfleet's purpose. Starfleet's main purpose is exploration, discovery, and diplomacy. The Star Trek galaxy is a dangerous place for various reasons, both natural and artificial. Thus the Federation has chosen to send its citizens into the void only after they've been well trained, and are equipped to face the potential dangers that await them.

Starfleet is simply more than one thing. When our soldiers go to war, we don't relegate them to the role of warrior forever. They also engage in humanitarian activities, and when they come home, they become artists, politicians, businessmen, etc.

Starfleet is no different. Admitting that Starfleet is the military arm of the Federation does not subtract from its role as being the exploration arm of the Federation. To assume that Starfleet can't be a military entity while also being an entity dedicated to the peaceful exploration of the galaxy demonstrates binary thinking. That is, one believes things must be either A or B, they can't be A and B, nor can they be C. The world is more complex than that, and so is the role that Starfleet plays in the Star Trek universe.

[Paulo999]

when diplomacy fails we cry - starfleet

When diplomacy fails theres only one alternative.. violence - a universe between the mirror and prime

Screw dimplomacy pew pew pew pew pew - Terran Empire

[phlyto]

Star fleet IS the military, yes.

However, in order to toss some more fuel on the fire of debate..

The Coast Guard also has a rank structure, they also perform combat duties, and, they also do diplomatic missions, much like the Navy.

Yet, they are NOT a military organization.

The Coast Guard is a military organization. It was recently placed under the Department of Homeland security so that it could operate during peace time legally (performing law enforcement duties), as it would violate the United States Code otherwise. The Coast Guard is also subject to "Activation" where in it's command is transferred from Homeland Security to the Department of the Navy.

That being said, saying the Coast Guard is not actually the military is the same as saying that the National Guard is not part of the military, Both statements are wrong.

[hachimando]

I hadn't even though this was a viable question. Perhaps the easiest way to answer it is to define what Military means rather than what Starfleet is and see if it fits the definition.

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military


A military is an organization authorized by its nation to use force, usually including use of weapons, in defending its country (or by attacking other countries) by combating actual or perceived threats. As an adjective the term "military" is also used to refer to any property or aspect of a military. Militaries often function as societies within societies, by having their own military communities, economies, education, medicine and other aspects of a functioning civilian society.


Is Starfleet authorized by the UFP to use force to defend it's territory in order to combat actual or perceived threats? Yes; therefore, Starfleet is a Military organization.

[ChristopherC]

In the fictional Star Trek universe, Starfleet is the military and exploration corps of the United Federation of Planets. Starfleet Headquarters is located in San Francisco, California, Earth, Sol System, Sector 001, in the Alpha Quadrant.

Many of the Headquarters' buildings are concentrated just east of the Golden Gate Bridge in what is now the Presidio of San Francisco, a park on the northern tip of the San Francisco Peninsula.

Starfleet consists of many branches which make up the organization, namely:

* Starfleet Command
* Starfleet Intelligence
* Starfleet Medical
* Starfleet Academy
* Starfleet Engineering Corps
* Section 31

Though Starfleet ranks are comprised of many races, it is mostly populated by humans and Vulcans, two of the founders of the Federation.

Starfleet has been shown to handle diplomatic, scientific, and military missions, although their main mandate seems to be one of peaceful exploration. The flagship of Starfleet (and also of the "1st fleet", see Dominion War) is the Starship Enterprise.

[Manx]

Starfleet would be considered a military body simply because its first duty is to defend the Federation.

I know that some people would object to that; but, if presented with a Borg invasion on one hand, and a once-in-a-lifetime chance to study some rare but short lived spatial anomaly that could provide answers to some of the most enduring mysteries of the age on the other, I'm pretty sure all nearby ships would be sent to deal with the Borg.

Starfleet can and will order personel to drop missions of exploration, diplomacy, or science, in order to deal with a threat to the Federation; they would not order a ship out of battle to chart nebulas (no matter how badly they needed it done). Therefore, Starfleet is primarily a military.

[hachimando]

The Coast Guard also has a rank structure, they also perform combat duties, and, they also do diplomatic missions, much like the Navy.

Yet, they are NOT a military organization.

Google says you're wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Coast_Guard


The United States Coast Guard (USCG) is a branch of the United States Armed Forces and one of seven uniformed services. It is unique among the military branches in that it has a maritime law enforcement mission (with jurisdiction both domestically and in international waters) and a federal regulatory agency mission as part of its mission set. It operates under the Department of Homeland Security during peacetime, and can be transferred to the Department of the Navy by the President or Congress during a time of war.

[The_Sisko]

I believe starfleet is more of a "Paramilitary" organization, military like in many ways, but not quiet the same as a military, such as well, you dont see Starfleet officers saluting superior officers all over the place. starfleet might have been based on the military, but i think it evolved in purpose over the years into something more, but most the time all we ever really see are the military aspects.

Paramilitary means "not quite military" or "less than military," I don't think that describes Starfleet at all. If anything, Starfleet would be "meta-military" I think.

[Deltab]

The militaries of many of the allied nations, but particularly the US Air Force and US Navy, conduct a lot of scientific and medical research. Right now doctors from the US Navy are in Thailand testing an AIDS vaccine that they developed. The Air Force is building rockets, and maintains its own small space program. The US Army is developing bipedal robots. Ok, plenty of scientific and medical research, and not all of it has to do with blowing stuff up.


Last I knew the Air Force Space Command budge was larger than NASA's. Maybe this has changed recently, but in addition Space Command works frequently with NASA in many things.

Overal I agree entirely. Star Fleet being a military only makes sense. That said, they take "just war theory" to its greatest point. There is nothing wrong with that, in fact it is something today's military is trying to do as well.

[Huutini]

I still think, you can't cramp a contemporary point of view into it. Starfleet is a lot of things. It's a force of deep space exploration, a diplomatic corpse, some sort of humanitarian organization, some Sort of united Nations and, yes, some sort of Military.

I mean, the UN has military personel too ( the one with the blue helmets), which operate under military structures in military operations. Are the UN a military organization?

No. But: they can represent their members in a military way. And, by the way, they're doing a lot os research and humanitarian work too. :)

try to see the Federation as some sort of futuristic United Nations. They are in some sort a military when it comes to humanitarian intervention and the protection of their own soil.

[Thibor]

[B][COLOR="SkyBlue"]And in reference to that one piece of evidence that Starfleet is not the military, I want to say that I believe Captain Picard was voicing his opinion, and not the actual facts. Captain Picard, the explorer, the diplomat, the scientist, the historian, and the statesman was expressing his opinion in an argument against someone whom he obviously did not like. And it's possible that he even believes that Starfleet isn't a military organization, especially not when compared to some military organizations both past and present that do nothing but fighting and killing.


In diplomatic situations, you assume the guise that will give you the most leverage in the proceedings. To that end, portraying yourself as part of a "military" organization can have different effects depending on the culture, background and experiences of those you are dealing with. It may well be advantageous to present yourself as explorers and scientists to one group, and as a strong military force to another.

Whether Picard believes those statements referenced by PF to the core or was deemed merely to be the proper stance to assume during the discussions at hand is left for the viewer to interpret.

[hachimando]

Paramilitary means "not quite military" or "less than military," I don't think that describes Starfleet at all. If anything, Starfleet would be "meta-military" I think.

Paramilitary actually means a civilian organization not directly authorized by the governing body to defend its territory. This is a binary solution, either you are (military) or you are not (paramillitary) authorized to defend. In Starfleets case, they are authorized by the governing body (the UFP) to fly around and shoot at bad guys.

[Starrider543]

because there is no other group to function as a military, starfleet has to function as a military even if it is not officially one

[Ziktur]

They are the military but that is only just a side function for them. Star Fleet is a combination of many arms of soceity. Military is j ust one of those aspects. Nothing More.

The real question comes is if the Humans leave the Federation....who gets all the ships? The Federation is a human created organization and is based on Earth. We are the main body and stability in its design, so if we leave...what happens?

[Elta_and_Zletha]

Ugh, Starfleet is NOT the military.

Peregrine_Falcon's quote from Craig Zinckevich is what HE believes, so it's not to be considered "canon", even for STO.

There were alot of good posts from people who gave their insights as to Starfleet not being military, but there were too many to quote.

Now for those stating that Starfleet is the military arm of the Federation, that's just WRONG.
Just because you possess the weapons doesn't automatically mean you are the military.

To quote again from Enterprise "Home"-
ARCHER: Ventral and dorsal torpedo launchers, pulsed phase cannons.
ERIKA: Upgrades you recommended. ...What is it?
ARCHER: I had an argument once with Captain Jefferies. He was one of the designers of the NX-Class.
ERIKA: I'm aware of that.
ARCHER: I told him I didn't want to be in command of a warship trying to make first contact with new species. Jefferies was right. We needed those weapons, and a hell of a lot more.

The weapons on a starship are there for PROTECTION, not going out and dictating martial law everywhere you go.

If you have a group of scientists go out to explore a region, and they're carring guns with them because they need to protect themeselves in an unknown place, do you automatically mark them as being the military?

[Ziktur]

If you have a group of scientists go out to explore a region, and they're carring guns with them because they need to protect themeselves in an unknown place, do you automatically mark them as being the military?

No, but they can BECOME the military if called to do so. That is the point. It is just an aspect of what a Star Fleet Officer does. They are all trained for it, I know I'd want to be if crap happens (and it seems to happen a lot!).

[Sandmanjw]

Would say Starfleet is military organization. But more of a National Guard type system, with all members of StarFleet being subject to military duty call up in times of war.

The Fleet is all built and maintained and manned (as in core crew to operate the fleet) by the military arm of Starfleet.

And in times of war all the fleet can and may be called up to a war footing to support the war effort. What ever the normal duties and functions, (Exploration, Science, Medical).

What piccard says makes sense in that form. IE: If the Federation is not at war, the mission of his ship is no longer a military one.

More along the lines of a National Guard type organization. If activated your duty and missions change.

[Elta_and_Zletha]

The real question comes is if the Humans leave the Federation....who gets all the ships? The Federation is a human created organization and is based on Earth. We are the main body and stability in its design, so if we leave...what happens?

The Federation is a conglomorate orginization that was created with the signing of an alliance between Earth, Vulan, Anodoria and Teller Prime.

Though Earth is just the defacto home base because it was the only planet that had a neutral standing from the other three.

If humans were to just leave, there are still 3 other founding members that can continue with it, as well as many, many other worlds that have been accepted into the Federation.

[hachimando]

Ugh, Starfleet is NOT the military.

Peregrine_Falcon's quote from Craig Zinckevich is what HE believes, so it's not to be considered "canon", even for STO.

There were alot of good posts from people who gave their insights as to Starfleet not being military, but there were too many to quote.

Now for those stating that Starfleet is the military arm of the Federation, that's just WRONG.
Just because you possess the weapons doesn't automatically mean you are the military.

To quote again from Enterprise "Home"-
ARCHER: Ventral and dorsal torpedo launchers, pulsed phase cannons.
ERIKA: Upgrades you recommended. ...What is it?
ARCHER: I had an argument once with Captain Jefferies. He was one of the designers of the NX-Class.
ERIKA: I'm aware of that.
ARCHER: I told him I didn't want to be in command of a warship trying to make first contact with new species. Jefferies was right. We needed those weapons, and a hell of a lot more.

The weapons on a starship are there for PROTECTION, not going out and dictating martial law everywhere you go.

If you have a group of scientists go out to explore a region, and they're carring guns with them because they need to protect themeselves in an unknown place, do you automatically mark them as being the military?

You still fail to grasp what Military means. A Military organization does not NEED to be armed. They just need to be authorized by any governing unit or entity to defend its territory. It could be 100% based on diplomacy with a mandate of "Ask nice, then ask nice again. When in doubt use stern language.". The only question about Starfleet being a military organization is: did somebody (Earth, UFP, etc) authorize them to defend their territory? Obviously the answer is yes, since time and again we see them receive orders to do so.

What you quoted from Archer/Erika simply states that in a first contact mission going in guns blazing may not be the best option (or maybe it is). It speaks absolutely nothing about whether or not Starfleet is authorized to defend Earth or any other UFP territory which is the defining characteristic of a military organization.

[Durakken]

Star Fleet is and is not a military organization...

During Star Fleet's inception it was an exploration and scientific organization...MACO was supposed to be the military force. Star Fleet had a compliment of MACOs for their ships (which there was only one at the time) It's assumed that had the events of ENT not transpired MACO would have had their own fleet...however due to Enterprise's encounters and need for more weapons....and because the Federation formed and broght together several organizations, science and military... It was decided, most likely, to merge all into one which is why there are the different "carreers" of a Star Fleet Officer. Science, Tactical, Engineer, and Command.

Tactical is what MACO would have been
Science is what Star Fleet would have been
Engineering and Command are from both.

So it matters where in time your asking and of what you mean...

Star Fleet and the Federation decided against building military vessels for the most part. This changed during the Domion war with the Prometheus and the Defiant... The leaning of fed has always been exploration however after the first mission it was noted that exploration sometimes needs a gun and thus is why it has become a merged organization, both military and not.

[Haggard]

I fail to see how this can even be under debate. One or two lines from TNG vs everything else presented in 13 movies and four out of five series, with the fifth series taking place before the foundation of the UFP (you can't be the military branch of something that doesn't exist yet)? Peregrine has outlined an excellent explanation and overview of how even a non-idealized, real-world military organization can contribute to the welfare of the nation they protect in ways that involve more than fighting.

To turn this argument on its head, if Starfleet is *not* the military branch of the UFP, where is their military and what is it called? Where were its representatives during Star Trek VI when open war with the Klingon Empire was being considered? Where were they at Wolf 359? Where were they during the Borg incursion during First Contact? In all of these cases, Starfleet assumed every aspect of responsibility and fulfilled every role that would otherwise be filled by a military organization.

The alternative would be to assert that the UFP has no military. This is clearly false because Starfleet operates armed ships, part of whose duties include protecting UFP holdings and citizens. In addition, I tend to think that claiming to not have a military would not be conducive to maintaining peace with aggressive neighbors such as the Klingons who would interpret such an assertion as a sign of weakness.

[Kayos]

I suppose they would be like the United Nations, the Starfleet Command would be like the UN Secruity Council etc..
The UN has the use of the Military anyway you look at it but the UN is not technically a military. Same thing really.

[mirkrim]

Starfleet is basically a galactic UN + Space Agency. I don't know if you could say they're a military organization in the present-day sense, but certainly one of the roles they fulfil is a military one.

[mrwalsh]

But another conversation that Peregrine_Falcon forgot to mention was the one between Captain Archer and Captain Hernandez.

Ent. episode "Home"-
ERIKA: So, did you get a chance to look 'em over?
ARCHER: Look what over?
ERIKA: My senior officer candidates. Any suggestions for Tactical?
ARCHER: You may want to find someone with more field experience, a MACO.
ERIKA: I'm not sure how I feel about a military officer on the Bridge.
ARCHER: If I were you, I'd talk to General Casey about assigning an entire squad.

So from this conversation, it shows that, at least in the 22nd century, Starfleet and the Military were seperate orginizations but working or serving with each other. So seperate though, that Capt. Hernandez didn't even want the military on her ship at all, just pure Starfleet personnel.


That quote is from before the Federation was founded. At the time, Earth had a separate division for exploration and combat, kinda like we have the armed forces and NASA now.

I am with your point though. You have to figure Starfleet represents both as necessary. I don't think they'd like to be called a military, but we don't have anything else really to compare it to. It works well beyond the military though, including a fair share of the scientific endeavors of the Federation. It's something very much beyond what we currently have. Calling it a military is like saying a coin has a single side. It's a societal evolution where various needs of society are fused together in one larger, more capable organization-prolly a spin-off of the whole communist thing that we've got going in the future..

[gogarty]

Everyone's perception of the military is that of the role of the United State's military. But I think people need to look at it more like something similar. The UFP is more closely related to the UN than anything else. A conglomeration of different cultures who all agreed to have a peaceful assembly to discuss events and make decisions. And Starfleet is kind of more like the navy's of old than say NATO's "peacekeeping" force.

Ships were sent out to explore and map the world under the banner of their nation. And yes, of course these ships had weapons. First as a defensive measure from an opposing force or from seperatists who left the Navies. I believe that everyone's view of the term military is automatically that of an Army. It was common on British Navy vessels to have scientists aboard to observe other cultures and species of animals. It was also common to have Marines stationed aboard vessels to do the shooting, so to speak, and fight the conflicts of a vessel if it came to close-quarters combat.

So is Starfleet a military in the sense of an Army? No. Is it military in the sense more of a Navy? Yes. Officers attend a military academy and, based upon their area of specialty, pursue a career on that specialty. It functions as a Navy in space to explore and map, to contact and negotiate with other cultures, and to defend themselves, their vessel, and their culture as necessary.

But, of course, you also need to look at things within Star Trek that are outside of the UFP to make the presumption that Starfleet is in fact militaristic. The Maquis, for example. They have left the service of Starfleet, commandeering other vessels to raid supplies and follow their own ideology while living outside of the influence of the UFP. Is there any example in the history of the navy of similiar events? Pirates. And I'm not talking about Orlando Bloom romanticized pirates.

Another thing to look that is missing from canon is non-commissioned officers or enlisted crew. Yes, JJ-Trek had Captain Pike telling Kirk to "Enlist in Starfleet". But Kirk went on to attend the Academy and became an officer. But what is missing are people who did not attend a military academy who still are a part of Starfleet and work on the day-to-day operations of a vessel. It could be explained that since canon has been biased to mostly flagships that the lowest rank on the flagship was Ensign (as people had to show a certain degree of potential to even be considered for such a command).

Anyway, my 2 cents (or nickle rather).

[Suricata]

Hello, and welcome to the Star Trek Online forums!

There already several threads about this topic.

You can't really compare Starfleet to any modern day organisation because it something simply never done before, it is 'Starfleet''

If you'd like more information about STO, you might find these threads helpful:

Ask Cryptic Blog Compilation (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=22923)
Dev Chat Transcript Compilation (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=27354)
Developer Interviews (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=12530)
Everything we know about STO (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=14535)
STO Video Consolidation (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=28328)

You might also want to go here and sign up for beta testing (http://www.startrekonline.com/) if you haven't already done so.

Welcome aboard captain!

[polysyllabist]

Starfleet fills the role of the military, but since it's inception has never limited itself to the mere offensive/defensive roles a military fulfills. In fact more often than not aspiring to greater callings such as exploration and diplomacy, not for the sake of tactical advantage as historically performed by militaries but rather for it's own sake.

To call Starfleet "The Military" is to ill define it, as to do so seems to pigeon hole their duties, then to tack on all the other callings we ascribe to starfleet.
It may be semantics, but I prefer to see Starfleet as an official organization which fulfills the role of the military, while equally maintaining roles as explorers, diplomats and humanitarians. Conflict can be resolved in many different fashions, and in times where there are distant frontiers (as in the 24th Century as with the 14th) "military" commanders often filled all such roles.

The difference, as I see it, is that a military commander was an instrument of war first, and a diplomat/explorer as the situation demanded. Starfleet, conversely appears to me as a band of dilpomats, explorers and humanitarians first, who are also equipped with impressive weapon systems for when the situation necessitates.

I wouldn't call the Peacecore a military, even if they were issued guns and didn't hesitate to use them when the situation demanded. Likewise, I think the term military simply does not fit, even if their roles are are fully absorbed within Starfleet.

It's all a matter of semantics.
I do however, agree that Roddenberry's voluntary experience in the military (fighting a war of necessity) and as a civilian peacekeeper did indeed shape his views on Starfleet's role, within his idellic setting of Star Trek.

[phlyto]

Can we at least agree that Starfleet is a para-military organization that serves various functions including serving as the Federation's military force?

[KO_Gilligan]

The Federation has inflated their own egos with false notions of goodwill and exploration.

They are a wretched Miltary, created for conquest.

Klingons don't need such pretense because we have honor, and are not guilty of such treachery.

[Formatted]

The militaries of many of the allied nations, but particularly the US Air Force and US Navy, conduct a lot of scientific and medical research. Right now doctors from the US Navy are in Thailand testing an AIDS vaccine that they developed. The Air Force is building rockets, and maintains its own small space program. The US Army is developing bipedal robots. Ok, plenty of scientific and medical research, and not all of it has to do with blowing stuff up.

We get it Americas amazing... :P

[Suricata]

I think its worth noting that an organisation can be run in a militaristic fashion without been a military, for example the merchant navy uses the same struture as most military navies do, as do some civillian airlines and even large corporations. The militaries way of operating afterall is tried and tested, however, just because you run an organisation in a militiristic fashion does not mean that the organisation is a military.

Starfleet is so much more than military that to call it a military is to make it appear less than it is. It would be like working in an office and doing several jobs and occasionaly make tea for your collegues and then have people refer to your job as the tea maker because you make tea sometimes, it does your job no justice, much like pidgeon holing Starfleet as a military does it no justice.

[lovelylynn]

This is somewhat my take on it also, from the flag to how they operate; for all intents and purposes the UFP is what the UN becomes once we move from countries to planets. However I see Starfleet more comparable to a naval NATO of sorts (still an alliance but more military emphasis).

Star Trek started as what was popular at the time, a western, it was just set in space. I like to think Gene Roddenberry put into it some of the better concepts of the time and some that were well ahead of their time. So in the end yes Starfleet is a military organization, but it’s than simply that.

One thing about Star Trek is undeniable; it is many things to many people. There are some many shows, movies, books, comics, games, etcetera over the many years since its inception. But what really makes this a successful franchise isn’t what silly fact or assumption you ready of some wiki site; it’s the thoughts, feelings, and ideas it inspires.

Over time cannon will be added, changed, and even contradicted by the next incarnation of the franchise (often with much bickering due to the passion many feel about Star Trek). In the end maybe its best to weight a line of dialogue, or a tidbit of knowledge, against the spirit of the show and then see if it makes sense in the grand scheme of things. It is after all what we make of it.

[Johnh1978]

So what exactly does Starfleet do, besides the obvious military stuff like patrolling the borders and fighting in wars? Well they explore, engage in diplomacy, conduct scientific and medical research, perform search and rescue operations, and undertake humanitarian relief missions. Basically, when Starfleet shows up they pretty much do anything that needs to be done. Surprisingly, most militaries of most first world nations do just exactly that as well.



So the boyscouts... they have ranks. Lets change their ranks to fit with naval standards. Then we can designate mom's minivan as USS Whynot. After that we can have the children (with their parents) participate in a neighborhood watch, discuss sharing with other scout troops, explore the woods and forrests (which they do anyway), learn about things in nature (earth science) search for lost animals (which many troops do as well) and help raise money for charities (which many troops already do). Now all thats missing is or the boys, as a group, to beat up a bunch of girl scouts, and they'll be the military.

All elephants are grey, but not all grey things are elephants.

There was a quote from Kirk that I think everyone is familiar with:
"Space, the final frontier. These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise . Her five-year missoin: To explore strange new worlds, seek out new life, new civilisations. To Boldly go where no man has gone before!"

The only part of that which gives even a hint of the military is "mission" and frankly I've worked quite a few places that used the word mission as well.

There's also a quote from Picard, which doesn't sound very military to me,
"Space, the final frontier. These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise. Its continuing mission:To explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life, new civilisations. To boldly go where no one has gone before!"

Again... its all about the exploration, making contact. No one says anything about Seeking out New Life, and Opressing New Civilizations. Ok... so maybe that was a bit... rude, the military doesn't necessarily opress.

But then... you cite historical navy as your premise for comparing the exploration of Starfleet to the military. So lets examine those historical naval explorers. I think the biggest is probably the British with the Spanish being a close second.... right?

What, exactly, did the brits do as they explored? Well.... they conquored, or segregated. If they could convince the indiginous peoples to be bought off and work for beads and peanuts, they'd do that, or, barring that, they'd push the indiginous peoples off into a corner where they didn't have to think about them. If neither of those options worked... they conquored, and opressed. They also had a desire to remake the indiginous people over in their own image as much as they could. Bringing their religion, their beliefs, their way of life, and of course, collecting taxes.

"As the right of each sentient species to live in accordance with its normal cultural evolution is considered sacred, no Starfleet personnel may interfere with the normal and healthy development of alien life and culture. Such interference includes introducing superior knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely. Starfleet personnel may not violate this Prime Directive, even to save their lives and/or their ship, unless they are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental contamination of said culture. This directive takes precedence over any and all other considerations, and carries with it the highest moral obligation"

I cannot make my mind accept any organization which has that as it's highest doctrine as being military. Yes, certainly Starfleet performs in military actions, but it is not "The Military" The UN takes part in military actions, but it is not The Military.

I... had more I was going to say, but I have to go make lunch.

Docsmith.

[geodbdrunk01]

The UN is the equivalent of the UFP. Their military branch (the afformentioned soldiers in the blue helmets) are their military arm, equivalent to Starfleet.

Now imagine how powerful the UNs military branch would be if it was the ONLY military branch we had. Nations would contribute their resources to this force for mutual protection.

[Formatted]

The UN is the equivalent of the UFP. Their military branch (the afformentioned soldiers in the blue helmets) are their military arm, equivalent to Starfleet.

Ah but the UN soldiers are just a nations soldiers. Like http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4798835

[aircool]

In the UK, the Militart is part of the Ministry of Defence, which is part of the Civil Service.

So, applying a similar logic, Starfleet has a military branch, but in itself is not, primarily, a military organisation.

For example, the Ministry of Defence employs civil servants and military personnel. Whilst the civil service does not have 'ranks' like the military, it does actually have levels which equate to military ranks. Of course, the military can be involved in civil duties whilst civilians can be involved in miltary duties.

So, as for Starfleet, it is organised along traditional military lines, but it's remit exceeds what we'd traditionally expect from a military organisation.

The only thing Starfleet doesn't have is a Health & Safety Branch. Next time you watch any episode of any Star Trek, try and watch it though the eyes of a H&S goon and you'll realise why we'll be stuck on this rock we call earth until we all die from being wrapped in too much cotton wool.

[geodbdrunk01]

In this example, the UN also holds ACTUAL power... so yes, it is not a perfect comparison, but it is analogous.

[hachimando]

I think its worth noting that an organisation can be run in a militaristic fashion without been a military, for example the merchant navy uses the same struture as most military navies do, as do some civillian airlines and even large corporations. The militaries way of operating afterall is tried and tested, however, just because you run an organisation in a militiristic fashion does not mean that the organisation is a military.

Starfleet is so much more than military that to call it a military is to make it appear less than it is. It would be like working in an office and doing several jobs and occasionaly make tea for your collegues and then have people refer to your job as the tea maker because you make tea sometimes, it does your job no justice, much like pidgeon holing Starfleet as a military does it no justice.

Again, the only determining factor on whether an organization is classified as military or not, is whether a governing body authorizes that organization to defend its territory or not. The US Merchant Navy is not a military organization because they are not authorized by the US government to defend its territory. During times of war their role as an auxiliary to the Navy is to deliver troops and supplies to military units, not to engage and defend.

While Starfleet may encompase much more than just military operation, that is still one of their roles (regardless of how small). They are duely authorized by the UFP to defend UFP territories and interests and therefore are a military organization. Really, it's that simple.

I'll tack this on since it covers everything and has references.
ref: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Starfleet


United Earth Starfleet

Prior to 2161, Starfleet was the primary space defense and exploration organization of United Earth in the early-to-mid-22nd century. The primary authority of the United Earth Starfleet was referred to as either Starfleet Command or UESPA (United Earth Space Probe Agency) under the jurisdiction of the Command Council, and was located in the city of San Francisco, Earth. (ENT: "Broken Bow", "Terra Prime")

The primary purpose of Starfleet from its infancy was to "...seek out new life and new civilizations." and "...go boldly where no man has gone before." (This quote is attributed to Zefram Cochrane, the inventor of warp drive on Earth.) (ENT: "Broken Bow")

Some Starfleet personnel worked in conjunction with the United Earth Diplomatic Corps.

In 2153, following the Xindi attack on Earth and the numerous firefights that the Enterprise NX-01 had been involved in since its launch in 2151, it was determined that Earth's vessels would begin to carry detachments of United Earth's elite military unit, the MACOs, thus taking a step towards the unification of the United Earth Starfleet and the U.E. military – and of the roles of defense and exploration. (ENT: "The Expanse")

One of the primary projects of the United Earth Starfleet was to develop a viable and fast interstellar engine that would allow Earth to practically cross vast distances in reasonably short time. Despite some allegations of interference – or at least, a refusal of assistance – from the Vulcans, Earth had made notable progress in developing the warp five engine by the 2150s. (ENT: "Broken Bow")

Federation Starfleet

With the formation of the Federation in 2161, as per the Federation Charter, the United Earth Starfleet and the deep-space exploratory and military services of the other member worlds were combined to form the Federation Starfleet. (DS9: "Inquisition"; ENT: "Detained", "Divergence").

Until as late as the 2290s, some Federation Starfleet operations continued to fall at least partly under the jurisdiction UESPA. By the mid-24th century, however, Federation Starfleet operations were regulated solely by Starfleet Command, answering to the Federation President and the Federation Council. (TOS: "Charlie X", "Tomorrow is Yesterday"; Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home; et al.)


Military services have been part of Federation Starfleet since its inception in 2161, therefore Federation Starfleet is considered a military organization.

[Phymon]

Ugh, Starfleet is NOT the military.

Peregrine_Falcon's quote from Craig Zinckevich is what HE believes, so it's not to be considered "canon", even for STO.

There were alot of good posts from people who gave their insights as to Starfleet not being military, but there were too many to quote.

Now for those stating that Starfleet is the military arm of the Federation, that's just WRONG.
Just because you possess the weapons doesn't automatically mean you are the military.

To quote again from Enterprise "Home"-
ARCHER: Ventral and dorsal torpedo launchers, pulsed phase cannons.
ERIKA: Upgrades you recommended. ...What is it?
ARCHER: I had an argument once with Captain Jefferies. He was one of the designers of the NX-Class.
ERIKA: I'm aware of that.
ARCHER: I told him I didn't want to be in command of a warship trying to make first contact with new species. Jefferies was right. We needed those weapons, and a hell of a lot more.

The weapons on a starship are there for PROTECTION, not going out and dictating martial law everywhere you go.

If you have a group of scientists go out to explore a region, and they're carring guns with them because they need to protect themeselves in an unknown place, do you automatically mark them as being the military?

The problem here is that you're referring to the Starfleet before the establishment of the Federation. Starfleet changed completely once the Federation was created.

If Starfleet isn't the military, who fights the wars of the Federation? No other military force does more of the fighting than Starfleet. You don't see any other armed force fighting to the extent that Starfleet does. Archer's Starfleet is not Kirk’s Starfleet. Archer’s Starfleet was only responsible for Earth and it's colonies. The Federation Starfleet is responsible for protecting every UFP planet, colony, and all other existing UFP property and personal.

Once the Federation was formed, UFP Planet members had to merge their separate military forces into a united force, which became the new Starfleet. It wasn't the military during Archer's time, but it definitely became the military arm of the Federation once the Federation came into existence.

There is a lot of evidence to support that Starfleet is a military force. One concrete example is in the DS9 episode: "Rapture" Admiral Whatley mentioned to Sisko that the Bajoran militia, which was the only military force on Bajor, was to be absorbed into Starfleet upon joining the Federation. This is one of the many pieces of proof that all military arms of UFP planet members are absorbed into Starfleet once they become a member.

You can also reference the original Star Trek Technical manual (covers Kirk’s time), which details that Starfleet is the military wing of the Federation.

[Johnh1978]

Ask your local naval enlistee (or officer for that matter) when the last time was that they were allowed to bring their family aboard a military vessel while its out on duty, in potentially hostile waters.

Nuff Said.

[sandman105]

Ask your local naval enlistee (or officer for that matter) when the last time was that they were allowed to bring their family aboard a military vessel while its out on duty, in potentially hostile waters.

Nuff Said.

Why would you WANT your family aboard a military vessel in potentially hostile waters?

[Manx]

Ask your local naval enlistee (or officer for that matter) when the last time was that they were allowed to bring their family aboard a military vessel while its out on duty, in potentially hostile waters.

Nuff Said.

Scientists and explorers don't usualy take their families along when doing something dangerous either, so it's kind of besides the point.

Having families aboard the ships was one thing about the TNG era Starfleet that defied all common sense.

[Phymon]

The UN is the equivalent of the UFP. Their military branch (the afformentioned soldiers in the blue helmets) are their military arm, equivalent to Starfleet.

Now imagine how powerful the UNs military branch would be if it was the ONLY military branch we had. Nations would contribute their resources to this force for mutual protection.


This is the best comparison yet to what Starfleet is. The UFP is like the UN, while Starfleet is similar to the UN peace keeping force that has been given more jurisdictions to fight wars, respond to emergencies, research, and explore. Captains serve as diplomats when a UFP ambassador isn't available. TNG series has made countless references to UFP ambassadors who would finalize treaties and complete negotiations for ongoing conflicts, trade, or after a Starship made first contact.

[SiskoBell]

Ask your local naval enlistee (or officer for that matter) when the last time was that they were allowed to bring their family aboard a military vessel while its out on duty, in potentially hostile waters.

Nuff Said.

You seem to imply that because a conventional military don't allow something that Starfleet does, Starfleet isn't a military organization. Well Starfleet subjects its members to courts marshall just like regular militaries, does that automatically make Starfleet a military organization?

I guess I go back to my previous post, and agree with many others here. Can't we simply accept that the fantasy organization called Starfleet is a complex organization that serves many different purposes, including serving as the military arm of Starfleet?

When the Dominion threatened the Alpha Quadrant, it wasn't MACO Command, or UESPA, or the "Official Federation Military Contingent" sending ships and personnel to fight the Jem'Hadar, it was Starfleet. It was Starfleet that fought the war and Starfleet that presided over the Dominion surrender. It has always been Starfleet that has handled conflicts for the Federation. We can't apply real life contemporary ideas of military structure and purpose.

The Federation sometimes has to defend itself in war. The entity that performs that service is called Starfleet. We usually called defensive organizations that fight wars for governments or nations a military. Starfleet can thus be called the Federation's military. But that's not all that it is. It's the Federation's military but it's also so much more.

It's not mutually exclusive to say that Starfleet is both the military body of the Federation, and the exploration and scientific research arm of the Federation. It can be both without either concept taking precedent.

[Elboulevardo]

i have to agree with the notion that Starfleet is now the military, where as before, they were not (in archer's day) up to the signing of the Fed charter.

i think most of us can piece together that Starfleet swallowed up the MACO branch, to serve as an all encompassing military/science/exploration branch or division of the UFP.

if not Starfleet, who else serves as the Federation's military organization??

MACO's may still exist, but no canon that i'm aware of makes reference to them beyond the ENT series. Perhaps they can be penciled into this game as soft canon, as a tactical officers specialty career...who knows

[Phymon]

Ask your local naval enlistee (or officer for that matter) when the last time was that they were allowed to bring their family aboard a military vessel while its out on duty, in potentially hostile waters.

Nuff Said.

1. You can't compare Starfleet to any one country military force that exists today. Real world military forces are defenders of their respective country. Everything they do is towards that end. Protecting the UFP is just one of the many tasks Starfleet is responsible for.

2. Starfleet isn't allowed to have families which are non-Starfleet personnel onboard during times of war. Families were not onboard starships during the Dominion war.

3. Tactical focused ships like the Defiant and the Prometheus were designed for combat and thus did not support family functions on board. Wartime is very different from Peace.

[lordpenquin]

Star Fleet is a military group designed with the best interests of the Federation, which is "peace through diplomacy" first and foremost before ever going into a militaristic action such as attacking and killing of any enemy is a last resort.

Starfleet is sort of an intergalactic U.N. (as evidence in Kirk's trial) yet with the power to actually back things up. The real world U.N. is full of self important diplomats with no real power and the U.N. "Peacekeeping Force" are the first to run away in any real conflict. They are only good as being human targets, really. Star Fleet on the other hand have the force to back up their policies.

[Phymon]

In the UK, the Militart is part of the Ministry of Defence, which is part of the Civil Service.

So, applying a similar logic, Starfleet has a military branch, but in itself is not, primarily, a military organisation.

For example, the Ministry of Defence employs civil servants and military personnel. Whilst the civil service does not have 'ranks' like the military, it does actually have levels which equate to military ranks. Of course, the military can be involved in civil duties whilst civilians can be involved in miltary duties.

So, as for Starfleet, it is organised along traditional military lines, but it's remit exceeds what we'd traditionally expect from a military organisation.

The only thing Starfleet doesn't have is a Health & Safety Branch. Next time you watch any episode of any Star Trek, try and watch it though the eyes of a H&S goon and you'll realise why we'll be stuck on this rock we call earth until we all die from being wrapped in too much cotton wool.

Don't forget Starfleet Medical :-)

[OuroborosAgain]

Quote from wikipedia: "A military is an organization authorized by its nation to use force, usually including use of weapons, in defending its country (or by attacking other countries) by combating actual or perceived threats. As an adjective the term "military" is also used to refer to any property or aspect of a military. Militaries often function as societies within societies, by having their own military communities, economies, education, medicine and other aspects of a functioning civilian society."

In that sense, Starfleet isnt necessarily what we currently define as a military organization.
It does use the same social and executive structure as militaries do, but that may be out of efficiency and convention. It is a large entity and having a military structure would give it stability and accountability.
Starfleet does have strong military aspects, it certainly fills the function of one in war times, but overall I think its a bit different than what we would typically call a military, it doesnt center its interests on the destruction of enemy forces.
Today, diplomacy, exploration, and the sciences are left to different people, not saying the militray hasn't, or doesnt do them but its not their main focus.
Final quote for the day nails it for me, this is from http://dictionary.reference.com/:
–adjective
1. of, for, or pertaining to the army or armed forces, often as distinguished from the navy: from civilian to military life.
2. of, for, or pertaining to war: military preparedness.
3. of or pertaining to soldiers.
4. befitting, characteristic of, or noting a soldier: a military bearing.
5. following the life of a soldier: a military career.
6. performed by soldiers: military duty.
–noun
7. the military,
a. the military establishment of a nation; the armed forces.
b. military personnel, esp. commissioned officers, taken collectively: the bar, the press, and the military.

Starfleet IS in the business of training officers to provide a multitude of functions in the Star Trek world, but they're not in the business of making everyone into soldiers.
They DO fill that role, but its one aspect of many.... so if its not para-military or meta-military, ill call it trans-military ^^

[Haggard]

So the boyscouts... they have ranks. [Snip for brevity] Now all thats missing is or the boys, as a group, to beat up a bunch of girl scouts, and they'll be the military.

All elephants are grey, but not all grey things are elephants.

Except that even with those changes, the Boy Scouts are still not authorized by a sponsoring government to provide an armed defense of said governments territories and interests. What you just described is making the Boy Scouts into a paramilitary organization (admittedly some people feel they already are, but you made the comparison more direct), not a military organization. Hence the "para." Also, a military does not need someone to "beat up" to justify its existence. That is simply an assumption that you and many others have latched onto and attached to your personal preconceptions of what a military organization is.

No one says anything about Seeking out New Life, and Opressing New Civilizations. Ok... so maybe that was a bit... rude, the military doesn't necessarily opress.

But then... you cite historical navy as your premise for comparing the exploration of Starfleet to the military. So lets examine those historical naval explorers. I think the biggest is probably the British with the Spanish being a close second.... right?

What, exactly, did the brits do as they explored? Well.... they conquored, or segregated. If they could convince the indiginous peoples to be bought off and work for beads and peanuts, they'd do that, or, barring that, they'd push the indiginous peoples off into a corner where they didn't have to think about them. If neither of those options worked... they conquored, and opressed. They also had a desire to remake the indiginous people over in their own image as much as they could. Bringing their religion, their beliefs, their way of life, and of course, collecting taxes.

"As the right of each sentient species to live in accordance with its normal cultural evolution is considered sacred, no Starfleet personnel may interfere with the normal and healthy development of alien life and culture. Such interference includes introducing superior knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely. Starfleet personnel may not violate this Prime Directive, even to save their lives and/or their ship, unless they are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental contamination of said culture. This directive takes precedence over any and all other considerations, and carries with it the highest moral obligation"

The role of the military is to enforce the policies of the governing body that sponsors it. The British and Spanish navies did just that, but no matter how horrible we now think those actions were, it had nothing to do with their inherent natures as military organizations. The Prime Directive is significant because it demonstrates that Starfleet's sponsoring organization, the UFP, is striving to take a more enlightened position and make better use of its military than its component member states historically have - and it should be noted that at least three of its founding races (Terrans, Vulcans, and Andorians) have in their pasts used their militaries to wage bloody and genocidal warfare against their own people. In other words, it represents a commitment to employ their military - Starfleet - for knowledge and defense instead of attack, to borrow a phrase from another IP.

I cannot make my mind accept any organization which has that as it's highest doctrine as being military. Yes, certainly Starfleet performs in military actions, but it is not "The Military" The UN takes part in military actions, but it is not The Military.

This is interesting because the phrase "I cannot make my mind accept," indicates to me that at some level, you and the other posters who are so vehemently denying that Starfleet fits the description of a military organization despite the obvious evidence are aware that it is the extra emotional baggage you have attached to the word "military" that drives you to make that denial rather than the actual definition of the word.

[thefrayl]

Starfleet is absolutely UFP's military force. Not that they are limited to this function by any means though, which is obvious throughout Star Trek lore.

Another reference I'd like to add to the list:

Star Trek VI: The undiscovered country

During the meeting at Starfleet headquarters discussing the Klingon's shakey future and their decision to dismantle arms along the neutral zone, a present officer asks "...are we talking about mothballing the Starfleet?" in a response to the peace treaty at hand.

[cocoa-jin]

I want to be the first to post on this, so putting in this filler response.

I'll edit later once i read the whole thing =)

*edit

Okay!

So maybe people know what my take is on Starfleet and the military and how passionate I get about this debate.

Though Peregrine_Falcon posted some good points, I tend to go off of Picard's statement. I don't think its a matter of opinion, I think it's fact. Picard is IN Starfleet, he should know what it is and what it isn't.

But another conversation that Peregrine_Falcon forgot to mention was the one between Captain Archer and Captain Hernandez.

Ent. episode "Home"-
ERIKA: So, did you get a chance to look 'em over?
ARCHER: Look what over?
ERIKA: My senior officer candidates. Any suggestions for Tactical?
ARCHER: You may want to find someone with more field experience, a MACO.
ERIKA: I'm not sure how I feel about a military officer on the Bridge.
ARCHER: If I were you, I'd talk to General Casey about assigning an entire squad.

So from this conversation, it shows that, at least in the 22nd century, Starfleet and the Military were seperate orginizations but working or serving with each other. So seperate though, that Capt. Hernandez didn't even want the military on her ship at all, just pure Starfleet personnel.

Later on though, by the 23rd and 24th centurties, I'm sure that Starfleet absorbed some if not all of military procedures and protocol, but that doesn't mean that they're still THE military.

Voy. episode "Thirty Days", Tom Paris talks about when he was younger, as soon as he graduated from high school he wanted to join the Federation Naval Patrol, but his father, Admiral Owen Paris, pressured him to serve in Starfleet.

Again, this could be shown to prove that the military and Starfleet are still seperate orginizations. If the Starfleet was indeed the military, then Adm. Paris shoudn't have cared if his son joined the FNP, because its "still Starfleet".

In fact, it seems that the Federation has it's own military oginization in some way (to include the Naval Patrol) but also inluding Starfleet as well.

The "military" and Starfleet can be two seperate military entities. the military being Earth'sown security and military service. And Starfleet being the broader Military arm of the federation, for which earth is a part of.

Saying Starfleet cat military if a military already exists for Earth, can be like saying a state law enforcement arent police bcause the cities and counties have police and sheriffs.

We know Vulcan has starships, but they operate independent of Starfleet. Vulcan ships apparently are pretty well defended and armed. Would it not be worth while for planets of the federation, to have their own military/secuirty forces inplace to provide timely and immediate point defense of their planet and interests?

So Earth can have a military to secure its own interests independent of or in addition to/to supplement Starfleet who is responsible for providing Federation wide miliary and security support.

Japan relies on the US for military protection...but they have their own defense force. Because if someone decided to push into Japan, the Japanese recognize their need(either real or implied, by neccessity or their oen desire) to hold off any immediate threat to their homeland on their own until or even after we can organize a US defense for or with them.

Picard may be right in that they arent the Navy...but even Picard knows that Starfleet is tasked with fulfilling the martial responsibilities of Starfleet and the Federation. For all intensive purposes(with purpoes being key), Starfleet is the military of the Federtion in action and in responsibility...even if its not in name.

[Dext]

In my eyes it is an is not a Military at the same time.

It is a Military When it is needed to be an is not one when they do not need them to be.

[cocoa-jin]

In my eyes it is an is not a Military at the same time.

It is a Military When it is needed to be an is not one when they do not need them to be.

So does the Federation have someone else it can or does go to for the role of waging of conventional warfare? I'd say no...when the Federation needs these functions it goes to Starfleet...so Starfleet is the Federation's military, even if Starfleet is tasked to do other actions/services as either primary or secondary functions.

[Khern]

If Starfleet isn't the military, why does it have litteraly hundreds of ships capabable of engaging in major fleet combat? Such as in Deep Space 9; Sacrifice of Angels or the movie Star Trek: First Contact?

If it wasn't the main defensive force of the Federation it wouldn't be the Starfleet fighting those battles. Because Starfleet is fighting those battles, it must be counted as the military. Or if one is really stubborn about it not being the military, the closest thing to a military the Federation got.

[glguerrero]

It may be the reason why people are having difficulty defining Star Fleet and the UFP is because it doesn't fit with any present military or political terminology. At present, polities are still adamant about exercising their military options ultimately as they see fit and with their own resources. There is no interest at this time among nations to truly temper their political desires for a collective group, much less subscribe to funding and providing manpower for a substantial military force for that collective group.

In order for there to be a UFP, and therefore a Star Fleet, planets would first need to answer as one voice, politically. Present day Earth would fail in this regard. The only way to do this is by consensus, and that can only come about by subordinating national governments to a single international, or planetary, government. From there, each planetary government would subordinate itself to an interplanetary government.

Having an exploratory branch to an interplanetary military force (and Star Fleet is very much a military force) is not much of a stretch. Exploration serves several purposes. It is a form of reconnaissance, seeing what possible threats may be out there. It also provides a means of finding new systems with further resources to exploit, an essential political objective. Finally, it provides the opportunity of adding new members to the interplanetary government, creating a more secure and robust interstellar polity. Exploration is politically motivated, and since the military is a political instrument, it follows that the military is best suited for exploration.

[jakethemook1]

Starfleet is the product of its environment and remit, an evolved organisation that has no immediate comparison to anything around us. Yes its 'sort of' like one thing and 'a bit' like another, but it has its own unique classification.

[des010]

Okay this is a stupid debate. If Someone invades earth who's job is it to protect it????????? What do u call a orginzation that defends a country??????????????

[Elta_and_Zletha]

Okay this is a stupid debate. If Someone invades earth who's job is it to protect it????????? What do u call a orginzation that defends a country??????????????

...The governement? :o

[sandman105]

Okay this is a stupid debate. If Someone invades earth who's job is it to protect it????????? What do u call a orginzation that defends a country??????????????

What... wait... are you asking us? If someone invades earth... who's job is it to protect it? The men in black? :cool:

[JackOfDiamond]

Try this one on for size.

Starfleet is the military force of a Federation that has ostensibly rejected the concept of war.

The Picard quote is about him coming to terms with the notion of the unavoidable conflict.

[Elta_and_Zletha]

If Starfleet isn't the military, why does it have litteraly hundreds of ships capabable of engaging in major fleet combat? Such as in Deep Space 9; Sacrifice of Angels or the movie Star Trek: First Contact?

If it wasn't the main defensive force of the Federation it wouldn't be the Starfleet fighting those battles. Because Starfleet is fighting those battles, it must be counted as the military. Or if one is really stubborn about it not being the military, the closest thing to a military the Federation got.

Its mearly because those ships employ weapons used for self defense.

Nearly all ships that Starfleet produces are used for peaceful exploration, however you have to have weapons in order to defend yourself against any hostilities.

Again, if you are an explorer and went off to study some jungle, are you going with nothing to protect yourself? Perhaps a small firearm? If so, does that now immediatly make you the military because you can defend yourself?

NOW

Due to the Dominon invasion, Starfleet had to design new ships to counter the threat of war, hence the building of prototype ships the NX-Defiant and NX-Prometheus. Ships specifically built for a combat role.

Meaning that there are no science labs, no recreation rooms, no classrooms, no families.
All starships, with the exception of these two classes, had these facilities avaliable.

So if an orginization, such as Starfleet, claims to be military, they should have been making these ships since the begining.

[Swamp1]

Hmmm...last time I checked, ships of science and exploration didnt carry 16" guns and Tomahawk Missles...translation... type XII phasar array and photon/quantum torpedoes. Also I believe the men and women of the science and exploration teams in Antartica at this moment, are not carring M-16s, 9mm side arms and gernades. But ALL away teams carry type II hand phasars and or Phase Rifles and sometimes gernades. Some Star Fleet Capts MAY want to think of themselves as explorers and scientists, but they are Naval Officers first and they take ALL thier orders from and answer only to Star Fleet Admirals not Corporate Presidents. So I have to agree with Perrigon...Star Fleet is a Military Organization with other duties to perform when not protecting the Federation from its enemies.

[Khern]

Its mearly because those ships employ weapons used for self defense.

Nearly all ships that Starfleet produces are used for peaceful exploration, however you have to have weapons in order to defend yourself against any hostilities.

Again, if you are an explorer and went off to study some jungle, are you going with nothing to protect yourself? Perhaps a small firearm? If so, does that now immediatly make you the military because you can defend yourself?

Didn't really contradict or answer what I wrote. I asked why are the Starfleet fighting those battles if there is another military force? That they have weapons is not in dispute.

Surely, the largest battle in Federation history, the battle of Bajor (Sacrifice of Angels) would not be fought by a non-military organization. Since the Federation fights the entire war, every single battle, they have to be the military. Also, there is a deep space nine episode which sees Starfleet Marines go into ground combat with Gem Hadar. Not Security personnel, but dedicated Marine troops.

Ground combat troops. Tell me that isn't purely something military forces have.

[OuroborosAgain]

Okay this is a stupid debate. If Someone invades earth who's job is it to protect it????????? What do u call a orginzation that defends a country??????????????

Right now, in the US, this would be our military forces.

But if today was starfleet, it would contain many orginizations, like the Oil/Gas explorers working for many companys, scientists from the National Science Foundation, army/navy/air force tacticians, doctors from the national institute of health, lawyers who do intergalactic law, NASA, Biologists, mathematicians, computer scientists (huge IT dept. in the ST world), and atleast one psychic willing to wear a pink onesie and tell you what other people are feeling.

its a huge executive force, really, not just a space force.

[nobadee]

My take on Starfleet is that it is a multifunction organization with various purposes in the federation depending on the scenario. Earth has it's own naval defense force, every federation entity has it's own planetary defense force; but, when it comes to the Federation as a whole; they rely solely on Starfleet as a military force. Though they have the same duties as the military, they do not follow military protocol in detail. For instance if you were attacking a ship and sending a boarding party normally you would send trained marines over to do the job; but, in Star Trek they seem to send the highest ranking officers on the ship over instead. That completely contradicts how the military would handle the situation.

In the time of so called peace, their goal is exploration and support; in war they are the back bone of defense and opposition.

The Navy is little more than the coast guard in relation to Starfleet by the 24th century. They don't call Starfleet a military force for obvious reasons; because, they want to present themselves as a peaceful organization to new aliens; but, it's obvious subterfuge. Anyone who watches Star Trek knows that species across the galaxy call Starfleet out for what it really is, a military force posing as a bunch of hippies.

[6Dragon6]

Cool post some nice facts

[Lisztful]

Starfleet is absolutely UFP's military force. Not that they are limited to this function by any means though, which is obvious throughout Star Trek lore.

Another reference I'd like to add to the list:

Star Trek VI: The undiscovered country

During the meeting at Starfleet headquarters discussing the Klingon's shakey future and their decision to dismantle arms along the neutral zone, a present officer asks "...are we talking about mothballing the Starfleet?" in a response to the peace treaty at hand.

i also want to add the DS9 episode with earth under attack by changlings? the USS Lakota was there (cant recall episode name)

iirc......under the circumstances the Federation president authorizes Admiral Leyton access to more authority and resources. and a state of emergency and martial law is enacted ! that means something dont it ???


if someone would be able to fact check me..(or time to rewatch the episode) great :)

[TheGow]

I didn't read this thread. Maybe later, I'm tired. But Id have to say I believe Starfleet would be considered the military. And this is for one simple reason. In a time of war, it is Starfleet that fights. Otherwise they would be strictly science and exploration and the federation would send out a completely different group to handle fighting. But when the Borg or any other enemy comes along and starts mess, it's Starfleet that goes to battle.

[Banar]

Yes, Starfleet is the Federations Military branch, as well as serving many other functions. Aside from all the arguments already made, there have been numerous times (most of which are in DS9) of Starfleet Personnel being Soldeirs. O'Brien was referenced as such many times, as well as others. The primary definition of Soldier, and the only one that really fits here, is that of a person serving in a military organization; one engaged in military service.

[decoy26517]

Starfleet is a weak military force that will soon bow down to the superior Klingon forces.

[Tain01]

"StarFleet is not the military in a modern definition of military, but it is the closest thing that the Federation has to a full scale military organization."

Can we stop now?

[Kahn773]

Ok, Starfleet is both the military and a science and exploration organization. Just as the US Navy is.... I served for 8 years in the navy. We have ships other than warships! We have science ships and salvage ships as well. I have seen navy dive teams assigned to help with science and underwater excavations. Allot of our science in deep water tech comes from the navy.
Just because someone is in the navy doesn't make them some sort of killer. We serve to protect and we serve to enhance humanity, just as Starfleet does.

Anyone that doesn't think that Starfleet is both hasn't watched the show at all. The are a multi role force and that's it. Just because you don't like war or you think that Starfleet is a killing machine does not change the fact, that they serve both purposes of defense and science equally.

[Smoothfonzo]

Yes, it's the military. Although, I wouldn't say it's the only military. I think the Army and the Navy still exist. My theory is that Starfleet was a new branch of the military created in order to serve the exploration of the stars, hence Starfleet. Also, the Federation was created much later as Earth realized it needed allies. I see it as the U.N of Space.


Army - Land
Navy - Sea
Starfleet - Stars

[duckforceone]

from what i understand from all the movies and series.

Patrolling this sector
Peacekeep this
Guard against threats

those keep being the orders that starfleet gives. Sure they also give out examin this and that. So i'd say that starfleet is definately a military service, with a huge giant scientific part to it. :D

And in wartimes, entire starfleet converts into combat mode...

[Teufelpanzer]

I believe starfleet is more of a "Paramilitary" organization, military like in many ways, but not quiet the same as a military, such as well, you dont see Starfleet officers saluting superior officers all over the place. starfleet might have been based on the military, but i think it evolved in purpose over the years into something more, but most the time all we ever really see are the military aspects.

Sort of like the Salvation Army, maybe? But, you know, with blasters and photon torpedoes....:D

[Tain01]

Sort of like the Salvation Army, maybe? But, you know, with blasters and photon torpedoes....:D

Right, that was another thing. They didn't give Eddie D. Maple on a 5 year quest to find a 24/7 Galactic Tim Horton's a ship that has weapons that can destroy a battlecruiser.

[emery0]

Star fleet IS the military, yes.

However, in order to toss some more fuel on the fire of debate..

The Coast Guard also has a rank structure, they also perform combat duties, and, they also do diplomatic missions, much like the Navy.

Yet, they are NOT a military organization.

Yes they are;
The United States Coast Guard (USCG) is a branch of the United States Armed Forces and one of seven uniformed services. It is unique among the military branches in that it has a maritime law enforcement mission (with jurisdiction both domestically and in international waters) and a federal regulatory agency mission as part of its mission set. It operates under the Department of Homeland Security during peacetime, and can be transferred to the Department of the Navy by the President or Congress during a time of war.

USCG did fall under DOT as DOD can not do any type of law enforcement which the USCG does as it does not fall under the Posse Comitatus Act;

The Posse Comitatus Act is a United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385) passed on June 18, 1878. The Act prohibits most members of the federal uniformed services from exercising nominally state law enforcement, police, or peace officer powers that maintain "law and order" on non-federal property (states and their counties and municipal divisions) within the United States. The Coast Guard is exempt from the Act during peacetime.

Note I served with USCG personnel when I was in NATO.

[VainEldritch]

Sort of like the Salvation Army, maybe? But, you know, with blasters and photon torpedoes....:D

This is why the cloaking device was invented - so that the Klingons and Romulans could hide from Federation door-steppers when they come asking for donations...

Klingon Coms Officer: Captain, Federation cruiser approaching - they are hailing us...

Klingon Captain: Oh crap...

Com Officer: My god! It's the USS Collection Box..! They are offering us ship decals, uniform lapel pins and plasic flowers.

Captain: Engage cloaking device! Silent running! If anyone so much as farts, we'll all be wearing garish plastic accessories and singing "Auld Lang Syne".

*Captain hides behind chair*

[Jamisicus6]

Starfleet are not a solely Military organization. They do deal with military operations but their official main objective is exploration. They were originally founded because of the sudden proof that they were not alone in the universe during first contact with the Vulcans. They were told by the vulcans that there were many races who would attack defenseless planets and so Starfleet was made as a defensive measure. Soon after this the powers that be decided that with the vast numbers of ships that were being built that they could use some of them for Exploration and leading off of that, diplomacy to prevent attacks on Earth. So Starfleet was created as it is see today, as a diplomatic, exploratary organzation with the capacity to defend from and attack other factions.

[rook111]

OMG you guys missed the most important thing in this thread. Its not Is Star Fleet a military or isn't it. ITs THAT PF got PF'd!


Hello, and welcome to the Star Trek Online forums!

There already several threads about this topic.

You can't really compare Starfleet to any modern day organisation because it something simply never done before, it is 'Starfleet''

If you'd like more information about STO, you might find these threads helpful:

Ask Cryptic Blog Compilation (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=22923)
Dev Chat Transcript Compilation (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=27354)
Developer Interviews (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=12530)
Everything we know about STO (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=14535)
STO Video Consolidation (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=28328)

You might also want to go here and sign up for beta testing (http://www.startrekonline.com/) if you haven't already done so.

Welcome aboard captain!

[zane5546]

STARFLEET is most definitely the military arm of the Federation. It's simply that the military role has apparently expanded to other areas, rather than strict war-fighting and deterrence (such as exploration and development.) This has actually been the case in previous historical militaries. It seems to be the way we are heading now regarding our own military.

STARFLEET seems to embody extreme "jointness." Roles that would be separate branches in our military seem combined in STARFLEET (although it's never explicitly described.) So you may have different commands; ie STARFLEET Naval Operations is a separate command from STARFLEET Marines, which is separate from STARFLEET Intelligence, which is separate from STARFLEET Galaxy Exploration Command - but it's all STARFLEET.

One might assume that different commands develop distinctive cultures. The entirety of STARFLEET may be more lax on things like saluting. This is highly variable in our own time as well. I may be wrong, but I don't think Israeli soldiers are required to salute superiors outside of formal ceremonies.

[B3aT]

I agree StarFleet is the military of the Federation, peacefull, based on exploration, but still military.

And for those who don`t agree, see the alternative reality (crossover), the humans were slave w/o StarFleet`s warships to protect them. W/o guns the researchers are miners :D

[OF-US]

A very interesting thread, thanks all for a good read.


Now as to if Star Fleet is "The Military" consider this; if it walks like a duck, smells like a duck, sounds like a duck, acts like a duck, its a duck!

[JesseH21]

A very interesting thread, thanks all for a good read.


Now as to if Star Fleet is "The Military" consider this; if it walks like a duck, smells like a duck, sounds like a duck, acts like a duck, its a duck!

It's a tailless Playtupus!!!!!

[Arcturus]

A very interesting thread, thanks all for a good read.


Now as to if Star Fleet is "The Military" consider this; if it walks like a duck, smells like a duck, sounds like a duck, acts like a duck, its a duck!

If you are referring to "The duck" as Military, then I must disagree that Starfleet "Sounds like a duck."

The Military is defined as being comprised of soldiers. Simply put, nobody in Starfleet is a soldier.

But they fight. Fight wars, if need be. This is also correct, but I think in this case a swan is walking like a duck.

[JesseH21]

If you are referring to "The duck" as Military, then I must disagree that Starfleet "Sounds like a duck."

The Military is defined as being comprised of soldiers. Simply put, nobody in Starfleet is a soldier.

But they fight. Fight wars, if need be. This is also correct, but I think in this case a swan is walking like a duck.

actually, i believe in nemisis they included Starfleet Marines into the roster of starfleet personnel. (the ones in green uniforms are marines.)

[klingon1021]

I agree Peregrine, very well thought out. Starfleet is the military arm of the Federation. It encompasses all the roles of our modern military (Coast Guard, National Guard, Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Etc.) as well as roles fulfilled by necessity during ages past. People may want to wax poetic about how Starfleet is a happy exploration club, but when the bullets start flying, they are the only defense the Federation has against destruction.

I agree 100%, Starfleet is the Feds military.

[igloo]

TLDR

new movie sums it up perfectly: "the federation is a peace keeping and humanitarian armada"

nuh!

[Phymon]

i also want to add the DS9 episode with earth under attack by changlings? the USS Lakota was there (cant recall episode name)

iirc......under the circumstances the Federation president authorizes Admiral Leyton access to more authority and resources. and a state of emergency and martial law is enacted ! that means something dont it ???


if someone would be able to fact check me..(or time to rewatch the episode) great :)

Good reference. That Episode is called "Paradise lost" (DS9) and in that same two parter Layton wanted Starfleet to take over the UFP in order to protect it from the Dominion. Sisko disagreed and explained that Layton's plan would include replacing leaders of UFP worlds with Starfleet Senior officers, which in effect would place it under military rule. Sisko and Layton clearely referred to Starfleet as a military.

Starfleet isn't soley a military force, but part of their job is to serve as the military of the UFP when necessary. In "Paradise Lost" armed Starfleet officers were positioned in key areas all over Earth after the power grid was sabotaged. The president declared marshall law, which gave Starfleet the power to beam down armed officers on the ground to protect Earth. They were even doing blood screens on civilians and making them stay indoors after hours; sounds like a military function to me..

There was no other military force mentioned. It was Starfleet, which means that they are responsible for both Interstellar and plantetary defense of the UFP.

All UFP planets have their own civilan intelligence: Vulcan intellignece ("The Gambit part II" TNG), Section 31, (Several DS9 Episodes). These intelligence agencies have their own civilian detachment and run their own operations outside of Starfleet, but they don't fight wars on behalf of the UFP, Starfleet does. If Vulcan, Earth, or any UFP world were invaded, Starfleet would be sent in to deal with the threat. They are a military force when they need to be, but they are so much more than just a military.

[wophugus]

For reasons that have been brought up, I think it is technically correct but ultimately confusing to call starfleet a "military" organization. On the one hand, starfleet kills things. But it also does stuff militaries have historically not done. It has some sort of legal authority to prosecute civilians in matters only tangentially related to starfleet (a jag officer cuts the deal that sends bashir's parents to jail), it is more focused on science and exploration than any military has ever been (yeah, the royal navy had the beagle and the endeavor and the bounty, but those arrangements weren't exactly common. And they were all refits that, with the exception of the bounty, farmed out a lot of their science to folks who hadn't taken the king's shilling [banks, darwin], the royal navy certainly didn't make classes of ships devoted to exploration and science nor train its own "science officers" beyond the astronomy and mathematics needed for their trade), its officers can quit much more freely than in any military I'm aware of, there is no (or much less) obeisance, I think there is some evidence that star fleet fulfills the roles of a human rights commissions, star fleet fills rolls the state department or ministry of state would fulfill in a modern country (captains are assigned diplomatic work even when there is plenty of time to send a civilian out onto the scene, like picard investigating whether that one nation was ready to join the federation despite having a disunited home world), and, most importantly, I think plenty of star fleet officers we've seen would not consider starfleet's primary role to be combat. That's not true of most military officers I've known.

So if military means "authorized to use force" then yes, it is a military organization. But "military" connotes a lot more than that, and those connotations can be confusing and misleading in the context of starfleet.

[Phymon]

TLDR

new movie sums it up perfectly: "the federation is a peace keeping and humanitarian armada"

nuh!

Not really. Even that definition doesn't explain Starfleet too well.

You have words like "Humanitarian" and "Armada" - which still doesn't mention any of the other stuff Starfleet does like exploration, first contact, and scientific research.

I'm sure the other 100+ members would be offended by the term "Humanitarian" considering they're not Human. JJ Abrams Star Trek was "decent", but some parts were not well thought out.

Also, the new movie takes place in an alternate past, which could have changed how Starfleet evolved. It pretty much has a similar function to STO's Starfleet, but Nero's meddling could have changed it.

See? Your comment locked you in this discussion too! Grab a seat! :-)

[Peregrine_Falcon]

The problem is that whether or not phasers or warp drive exists in the Star Trek universe isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of canon. Whether or not the United Federation of Planets is a government isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of canon. And whether Starfleet is or is not a military organization is not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of canon.

This does not mean that there is no room for discussion. It does mean that the decision must be made on what is shown in canon, and not simply on our opinions.

The problem with canon is that the various Star Trek series episodes were written by a multitude of writers over many years, and many of those writers apparently didn't know or even care about Star Trek canon. Because of this we've seen numerous times in which canon is either unclear or many times even contradicts itself.

Rather than simply state my opinion, I did some research and presented information that is both for and against Starfleet being a military organization. In my research I discounted the Enterprise series entirely, because it takes place prior to the founding of the Federation.

In trying to argue that Starfleet is not the military, no one has even bothered to address the points from canon that I layed out in my initial post. If someone can prove with factual information from canon that Starfleet is not the military of the Federation I'll happily change my mind on this, but so far none of the posters against it have said anything that isn't just unfounded opinion. I'd really like someone to prove me wrong, but you're going to have to do it with information from canon, not with creative semantic arguments or word plays.

[Phymon]

The problem is that whether or not phasers or warp drive exists in the Star Trek universe isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of canon. Whether or not the United Federation of Planets is a government isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of canon. And whether Starfleet is or is not a military organization is not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of canon.

This does not mean that there is no room for discussion. It does mean that the decision must be made on what is shown in canon, and not simply on our opinions.

The problem with canon is that the various Star Trek series episodes were written by a multitude of writers over many years, and many of those writers apparently didn't know or even care about Star Trek canon. Because of this we've seen numerous times in which canon is either unclear or many times even contradicts itself.

Rather than simply state my opinion, I did some research and presented information that is both for and against Starfleet being a military organization. In my research I discounted the Enterprise series entirely, because it takes place prior to the founding of the Federation.

In trying to argue that Starfleet is not the military, no one has even bothered to address the points from canon that I layed out in my initial post. If someone can prove with factual information from canon that Starfleet is not the military of the Federation I'll happily change my mind on this, but so far none of the posters against it have said anything that isn't just unfounded opinion. I'd really like someone to prove me wrong, but you're going to have to do it with information from canon, not with creative semantic arguments or word plays.

Well said.

[Nararut]

StarFleet is the Millitary Branch of the Federation, there is no doupt in my eyes. Even going back to the Enterprise show which does take place before the founding of the UFP, the MACO's end up becoming Starfleets Marines and SEcurity personell. Also the Earth has its own "Naval" Force that is tasked with the Defence of the SOL system and nothing ells. While the tasks of Protection to the UFP as a whole is the Task of StarFleet, StarFleet is tasked with Defence of the UFP, Exploration, Diplomacy, and Scientific Brake Throughs. Yes there are Corps, such as the Scientific Corps, the Diplomacy Corps, and the Marine Corps, but they are all part of StarFleet. That is shown in all of the TV shows/Movies.

[UlfricDraka]

I think it's pretty clear that, insofar as the UFP has a military, Starfleet is it. We've never seen any other UFP military on screen, and when the Federation needs military force employed it's Starfleet who get the job.

It's also clear that combat is NOT Starfleet's primary mission focus - their ships are mostly exploration/research vessels that are armed so they can be called upon when needed for defence. So they aren't an exact analogue of a modern navy. Nonetheless they provide the armed force required by the state and operate using a military system of ranks and under a (somewhat loosened) system of discipline. I'm inclined to say that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

The other thing that's clear is that a number of TV episodes (mainly TNG episodes) were written by people who didn't really understand or know about how a military organisation operates, and didn't bother to find out. This means there are some quotes out there that are A) absolute canon and B) very hard to reconcile with any sort of common sense :)

[hachimando]

...

In trying to argue that Starfleet is not the military, no one has even bothered to address the points from canon that I layed out in my initial post. If someone can prove with factual information from canon that Starfleet is not the military of the Federation I'll happily change my mind on this, but so far none of the posters against it have said anything that isn't just unfounded opinion. I'd really like someone to prove me wrong, but you're going to have to do it with information from canon, not with creative semantic arguments or word plays.

I'll address it:



Picard: "Starfleet is not a military organization, its purpose is exploration."



Purpose does not define an organization as part of the military, actions define that inclusion. Starfleet has defended UFP territory time and again from many different threats under direct order of the UFP (not of free will, which would make them a paramilitary organization). Those actions alone make Starfleet categorized as a military organization, regardless of what its intent or purpose may have been. In this quote, Picard (the writers) misinterprets or purposely misrepresents what a military organization is. In fact from Picards perspective Enterprise is not a military vessel; it is a vessel of exploration, science and peace. Under times of need however, it may be called into military duty. This says nothing about Starfleet as a whole though, which maintains a military component and therefore is a military organization.

[wophugus]

In trying to argue that Starfleet is not the military, no one has even bothered to address the points from canon that I layed out in my initial post. If someone can prove with factual information from canon that Starfleet is not the military of the Federation I'll happily change my mind on this, but so far none of the posters against it have said anything that isn't just unfounded opinion. I'd really like someone to prove me wrong, but you're going to have to do it with information from canon, not with creative semantic arguments or word plays.

Well canon has never authoritatively said whether starfleet as a military organization or not. One character said it was, another character said it wasn't. Which seems to indicate that the term "military" is as open to interpretation in the 23rd and 24th centuries as it is in the 21st. At some level this debate has to be a little semantic.

Anyways, I think the biggest problem with your original post was that it says that everything starfleet does is done by the militaries of today. That is not the case, at least not in the western world. Whether acting in a prosecutorial or judicial function, JAGs have an extremely limited authority in determining what sort of punishments civilians should receive for civilian crimes. When that rear admiral arraigned for Bashir's dad to be punished he was doing something modern militaries -- and most historical militaries -- do not do. If you ever get a call from a rear admiral telling you about the punishment he has arranged for your civilian father who committed a civilian crime, sue everyone.

Modern militaries also have an extremely limited role in reporting on the political situation in another nation to policy makers. Depending on whether you think of the Federation as a nation or an international body, the fact finding picard was asked to do in Attached would be conducted by a diplomatic officer or a special rapporteur in our world.

Meanwhile, starfleet mixes the scientific and military rolls of its vessels way more than any modern navy. The US navy has never built anything like a galaxy class vessel.

Also, modern militaries do not travel to other star systems.

Lastly, starfleet has an entire community of science officers. That is not true of any modern military.

There are also lots of things that starfleet does not do that are common to almost all real militiaries. The most obvious is the fact that starfleet officers don't salute and almost never make any other form of obeisance.

[wophugus]

Sorry to double post, but to be clear: I am not arguing that starfleet is not a military organization. I'm arguing that what it does is so foreign to any modern or historical analogue that trying to define its militaryness is a losing battle.

[1MGSIX]

Lastly, starfleet has an entire community of science officers. That is not true of any modern military.

Sorry, that is an incorrect statement. I would tend to think that all the doctors and scientists of the U.S. military would take offense to that.

[Azurit]

I am currently watching TNG again (STO motivated me to do so). I watched seasons 1-5 so far. My opinion is, Starfleet is way more military then I remembered. Of course they have military ranks and all wear uniforms. But there whole behavior is military. I worked in private companies and did military service. And the atmosphere and behavior is total different in both. I can not even understand why someone could think that Starfleet is not the military. Sure they do a lot of rescue missions, but so does real military.

I would like to refer to TNG 5x19 "First Duty" everything in this episode is total military. http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_First_Duty

[Azurit]

Meanwhile, starfleet mixes the scientific and military rolls of its vessels way more than any modern navy. The US navy has never built anything like a galaxy class vessel.

Also, modern militaries do not travel to other star systems.
.

this is true, but the second argument somehow unfair comparison, I bet they would if they had the ability to do so.


Lastly, starfleet has an entire community of science officers. That is not true of any modern military.


I read a lot of papers about AI for my computer science study. And most of them are done by DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency). This people might not wear uniforms or get ranks. But I would consider them as a military community of science offiercs for example.

[/QUOTE]
There are also lots of things that starfleet does not do that are common to almost all real militiaries. The most obvious is the fact that starfleet officers don't salute and almost never make any other form of obeisance.[/QUOTE]

This is true. But in some series when Picard or Riker enter a room others stand to attention till they order "Stand at ease". And I would say this differs debending on military and officers. But I noticed that when you are on a mission this formal things can sometimes be more relaxed. In field saluting can even be forbidden so that you don't give information about the chain of command to snipers.

[wophugus]

Sorry, that is an incorrect statement. I would tend to think that all the doctors and scientists of the U.S. military would take offense to that.

I don't mean that there are no officers in the navy with meteorological, medical, and oceanographic training; I mean that they aren't organized into a "science" community, there is no "science division" on a navy ship, and there is no "Navy Science" command that focuses on gathering scientific data -- I think most navy research ships are either operated by military sealift command or by universities. Starfleet, on the other hand, organizes officers into a science "community" the way we might talk about the naval aviation community, and Starfleet Science is an entire division of starfleet focused purely on gathering information.

[Peregrine_Falcon]

I don't mean that there are no officers in the navy with meteorological, medical, and oceanographic training; I mean that they aren't organized into a "science" community, there is no "science division" on a navy ship, and there is no "Navy Science" command that focuses on gathering scientific data -- I think most navy research ships are either operated by military sealift command or by universities. Starfleet, on the other hand, organizes officers into a science "community" the way we might talk about the naval aviation community, and Starfleet Science is an entire division of starfleet focused purely on gathering information.
The US Navy has no "Science Division" ?

The US Navy Office of Naval Research" http://www.onr.navy.mil/About.asp

Pay special attention to the Division of Science and Technology.

[1MGSIX]

I don't mean that there are no officers in the navy with meteorological, medical, and oceanographic training; I mean that they aren't organized into a "science" community, there is no "science division" on a navy ship, and there is no "Navy Science" command that focuses on gathering scientific data -- I think most navy research ships are either operated by military sealift command or by universities. Starfleet, on the other hand, organizes officers into a science "community" the way we might talk about the naval aviation community, and Starfleet Science is an entire division of starfleet focused purely on gathering information.

This is also incorrect. the U.S military does divide into seperate commands. Just as an example the U.S Army has the Engineering Corps,the Signal Corps, the Military Police Corps and the Medical Corps just to mention a few. All of which are denoted by a branch insignia on the uniform.

[playoff52]

Military. All the way.

Albeit a Utopian version of one. It's still a military all the same. These are trained, and commisioned officers on vessels that are armed, some just for defense, but offense as well.

There is no seperation between Starfleet that explores and starfleet that fights wars to protect it's terrtories.

The biggest and more glaring problem with this debate is the inconsistancy within the seperate franchises. Plucking conversations from each different show will give you different perspectives from the different people who made them. Not bareing on where Starfleet falls in it's layout.

I tend to side with Falcon on this though in the citing of Gene Roddenberry. TOS is where it all started. That's your point of reference. Everything else is subdivisional.

[Commander_Nate]

There's a simple answer to this question:

The entire series of Deep Space 9.


If you need further proof, most of the movies will do.

[Direphoenix]

Lastly, starfleet has an entire community of science officers. That is not true of any modern military.


The US Navy has a Medical Corps, Navy Doctors have officer ranks, although as Staff Officers, they do not do things like command ships, which is reserved for something called Line Officers. The US Navy has hospital ships as well, but while those ship's primary purpose is to provide relief and medical aid, it is commanded by a Line Officer, not a medical doctor.

As for Science fields, Navy Scientists working for SPAWAR (SPAce WARfare command) have supposedly been working on some sort of cold fusion (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/03/navy-scientists/). Naval Surface Warfare Center Corona (http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=49001) has a large number of scientists working in their Measurement and Technology Labs, analyzing threat and defense capabilities of ships and aircraft weapon systems (scientists have to analyze the data to give to tacticians, after all). Scientists at the Naval Research Laboratory have come up with a method to use lasers to generate sound underwater, possibly for communication or acoustic imaging. (http://www.nrl.navy.mil/pressRelease.php?Y=2009&R=63-09r)

Just because you're not a soldier with a gun (or phaser) in your hand doesn't mean you're not military.

It seems that Roddenberry was only a small handful of people that were involved with Trek that had any military experience at all, and although he created the show with some concept of Naval command, Roddenberry's experience was with the Army Air Corps (which became the Air Force), so it's understandable that not everything matches up quite right. Writers (and media in general) are notorious for making up stories and skewing stories that don't portray military actions or purpose accurately, and arguing 'canon' for Star Trek is particularly absurd because the writers especially in the old days were never held to any such thing (and probably wouldn't have written anything if they had to be 'restricted' to what some other writer that was not them had written before). More than likely, they were just told, "you have this captain of a star ship, and these are key characters in his crew... go wild"

[wophugus]

The US Navy has no "Science Division" ?

The US Navy Office of Naval Research" http://www.onr.navy.mil/About.asp

Pay special attention to the Division of Science and Technology.

I didn't say the US navy has no science division, I said it has no science command and that there is no "science division" on a navy ship, as in no one on a naval vessel, as opposed to starfleet, would say "i'm in the science division."

That said, I freely admit that the navy does operate research vessels and coordinate scientific projects. My point is not that starfleet does research and our navy doesn't. It's that starfleet puts way more emphasis on it, has a more explicit "hard science" mission, and involves its actual officers and enlisted personnel (presumably) in its scientific endeavors to a greater extent than the US navy.

For example, sailors don't divide into science and non-science officers for administrative or organizational purposes. Far from it. Oceanographers are restricted line officers, for example, whereas doctors are staff officers. That's why, to me anyway, the fact that starfleet would consider them both "science" officers and make them dress the part indicates an extraordinarily different mission from the US navy. Science doesn't just support the mission for starfleet, it is the mission for a very great number of its personnel.

And if that doesn't do it for you, in Ethics Dr. Russell, a civilian, had to apply to starfleet to do research on humans. Starfleet is apparently so enmeshed in science that it has become the governing board for scientific ethics in the entire federation.

So what's my point? Well, I would be much quicker to call Le Cordon Bleu a culinary institution than the US navy, even though both of them train and employ scads of cooks. Likewise, I am quicker to consider the department of justice a law enforcement organization than the department of the navy, even though the navy investigates and tries its share of crime. When you are trying to characterize an organization you can't just latch on to one thing it does. It's important how much of it does, what else it does, and what it's driving purpose is. So I would be much quicker to call starfleet a "scientific research organization" than the Navy, even though on reflection they both kind of are.

And that's why it's misleading to call the federation a "military" organization (though more correct than flatly saying it is not a military organization, in my opinion). Military organizations in our world don't' define themselves hardly at all with their scientific mission, have a very limited ability to regulate civilian activity, and strictly subordinate the freedoms of their members. Starfleet is bigger on science, WAY bigger on regulating civilians (even meting out criminal punishment for them!), and way easier on their officers (for example, unless a war is on you can apparently resign at any time and walk away within days -- think about data quitting when star fleet orders him to get reverse engineered. Likewise, ritual shows of subservience to superior officers are limited, fraternization isn't punished, etc.). Starfleet is a military organization, but it's a military organization the way the navy is a culinary organization. The term is misleading. And for the same reason I think it's dumb to ask whether the navy is a culinary organization, I think it's dumb to ask whether starfleet is a military organization.

But not so dumb that I won't flame on at length about it, apparently.

This is also incorrect. the U.S military does divide into seperate commands. Just as an example the U.S Army has the Engineering Corps,the Signal Corps, the Military Police Corps and the Medical Corps just to mention a few. All of which are denoted by a branch insignia on the uniform.

Right, but there is "science" staff corps in the navy. Nor is there anything like it. The navy simply doesn't organize itself around a scientific mission.

[The_Sisko]

Ugh, Starfleet is NOT the military.

Peregrine_Falcon's quote from Craig Zinckevich is what HE believes, so it's not to be considered "canon", even for STO.

There were alot of good posts from people who gave their insights as to Starfleet not being military, but there were too many to quote.

Now for those stating that Starfleet is the military arm of the Federation, that's just WRONG.
Just because you possess the weapons doesn't automatically mean you are the military.

To quote again from Enterprise "Home"-
ARCHER: Ventral and dorsal torpedo launchers, pulsed phase cannons.
ERIKA: Upgrades you recommended. ...What is it?
ARCHER: I had an argument once with Captain Jefferies. He was one of the designers of the NX-Class.
ERIKA: I'm aware of that.
ARCHER: I told him I didn't want to be in command of a warship trying to make first contact with new species. Jefferies was right. We needed those weapons, and a hell of a lot more.

The weapons on a starship are there for PROTECTION, not going out and dictating martial law everywhere you go.

If you have a group of scientists go out to explore a region, and they're carring guns with them because they need to protect themeselves in an unknown place, do you automatically mark them as being the military?

No, it's the fact that they fight the Federation's wars that makes them the military. When the Borg attacked, the Federation never said "OK Starfleet, you can stand down, the Federation Armed Forces will take over." No, Starfleet fought the Borg. During the Dominion War it was Starfleet officers who were on the front lines, not some other Federation military force.

Starfleet fights wars, therefor Starfleet is a military. There are no two ways around that fact.

Even defending oneself can be determined to be a military action. You say Starfleet starships carry weapon, well show me where any merchant marine, or private craft is ever as heavily armed as a warship. These weapons might be used for defence, but they are military weapons nonetheless. One major function of a military vessel is to carry out the defence of the realm, Starfleet's starships are absolutely no exception.

I think this debate is a good one because I can fully imagine Federation citizens in the 24th century engaging in this exact debate.

[Elta_and_Zletha]

Starfleet fights wars, therefor Starfleet is a military. There are no two ways around that fact.
So far off on this one.
Have you already forget the famous tag line?
"To seek out new life and new civilizations."

Starfleet's primary objective it exploration and diplomacy. Again, you will run into some hostile races out there, and so you need to defend yourself. Just because you have the means to defend yourself does not mean you are the military.

Now because Starfleet consists of nothing but these exploration and diplomatic ships, which happen to also have the ONLY defense Starfleet has to offer, it only makes sense to rally said ships in case of any threat towards the Federation.


Even defending oneself can be determined to be a military action. You say Starfleet starships carry weapon, well show me where any merchant marine, or private craft is ever as heavily armed as a warship. These weapons might be used for defence, but they are military weapons nonetheless. One major function of a military vessel is to carry out the defence of the realm, Starfleet's starships are absolutely no exception.
Starfleet vessels are not classified as warships. Prior to the Dominon War and the Borg threat, all Starfleet ships were exploration or diplomacy or both.

The Borg redefined Starfleet's ship building schematics, in that they needed ships which were more combat suited, and so the Defiant class was designed.

Then during the Dominion War, another comabt suited vessel was created, the Prometheus. Both these ship classes had no science facilities, no recreation rooms/holodecks, no families, no schools, etc.

So again, if Starfleet was military, why did they JUST NOW need to design ships with military efforts?

[sandman105]

So by your logic you would say the army is not military cause their tag line is "be all you can be",which
makes no mention of fighting in their tag line.

[bradley1701]

Let's not align Starfleet with the system of a particular country, like the US Navy, because it isn't entirely...The Federation and Starfleet are almost identical to the United Nations. That is a much better comparison.

[Elta_and_Zletha]

So by your logic you would say the army is not military cause their tag line is "be all you can be",which
makes no mention of fighting in their tag line.

Noooooo....

....its because the actual name is ARMY.

[sandman105]

Ok, im curious... if Starfleet is not the military part of the federation, then i ask you... who is?
We all have been trying to prove or disprove Starfleet in being the military arm of the Federation.

For everyone that does not think Starfleet is indeed a military organization, in some shape or form, then please tell us who you think is classified as the military?

[Elta_and_Zletha]

Okay, here are some snipits from Wikipedia (and I hate citing Wiki). I also hate comparing Starfleet to current military or non-military orginizations because really, it's neither.

BUT, the closest is the Coast Guard-

"A coast guard or coastguard is a national organization responsible for various services (at sea). Among the responsibilities that may be entrusted to a coast guard service are:

•search and rescue
•enforcement of maritime law
•safety of vessels
•maintenance of seamarks
•border control

During wartime, some coast guard organisations might have responsibilities in harbour defence, port security, naval counter- intelligence and coastal patrols.

In some countries, the coast guard is part of the military (such as the US), in others it is a civilian, law enforcement, or even private sector organisation. Most coast guards operate ships and aircraft including helicopters and seaplanes that are either owned or leased by the agency in order to fulfil their respective roles."

So, to answer your question-
if Starfleet is not the military part of the federation, then i ask you... who is?

The answer... nobody!! In times of war, if the need be, the Federation calls on Starfleet vessels for defense because that's all there is!!

[sandman105]

Thank you for the response, and I agree for the most part with you, but lets look at it this way

Lets stick to the federations timeline . I will no longer compare starfleet to any military organization in existance today, because they do not exist in starfleets timeline.

No military organization today has to deal with the exploring space and dealing with aliens. So, given that...
If not Starfleet as the military, than who?

[ariosto]

A well thought out and defined post. I think of Star Fleet much in the same way I think of NASA which is not a military organization but has many similarities to the military and works closely with them in many aspects.

Now if we enter the future and have encountered other intelligent space traveling life it is only natural that we would arm our space craft for defense and since any conflict would likely start in space NASA would be called on to defend our interests which could be seen as a military response, but that wasn’t NASA’s original mission. This is how I see Star Fleet it’s original mission was one of exploration and scientific discovery, but it was forced to expand it’s role in order to preserve the interests of the Federation. The fact that ranks are used from the beginning doesn’t really imply military as rank is nothing more then a way to define authority and keep order in a closed environment like that of a ship even oil tankers have captains.

To sum it up:

Is Star Fleet military? Not by design, but it serves that role when the need arises.

This would be my position as well.

However, I think ultimately that the reasons why this military/nonmilitary question is necessary remain unclear. Why should it matter? Starfleet is Starfleet, there's no need to define it in reference to external organisations because it's quite clearly defined in and of itself. I don't wish to offend anyone, but this feels a little to me like people are trying to "claim" Starfleet by associating it with real world organisations or functions they hold dear. That strikes me as fundamentally wrong-headed: the whole point of Starfleet is that it represents the hopes and desires of all people within the Federation who look to the stars, and soldiers, engineers, doctors, scientists, diplomats, politicians, and so many others all have an equal claim upon it, and an equal right to feel proud to be a part of it.

[sandman105]

I pretty much just posted what i did earlier for the sake of argument. :cool:
Im not really heated about this subject matter, I am really just curious about peoples interpretations of what a military is and how it functions.

Darn you peregrine! Look what you have started!! :cool:

[marscentral]

I used to think of Starfeet as non-military. However, I was watching The Wrath of Khan yesterday and Kirk's son, David Marcus, spends half the movie calling Starfleet "the military". I know it offends our pacifist view of the Federation ideal, but that's what it really is.

[Xolox]

Starfleet is actually a conspiracy. The ideals are not credible and corruption would occur in such an "ideal" organisation. Starfleet are actually pirates with the Federation economy based on theft. Citizens of the Federation do not require money as they steal everyone elses assets. Where diplomacy is looking like it might not work out they send a heavily armed starship with the Captain acting as a "diplomat".

Starfleet also go to great lengths to commit genocide, especially when threatened by an advanced civilisation such as the Borg. Starfleet operates in a similar fashion to the Roman Empire. There is a reason why Starfleet has so many enemies.

In the context of the game a significant number of players will be acting as pirates out in the neutral zone.

[Commander_Nate]

Starfleet is actually a conspiracy. The ideals are not credible and corruption would occur in such an "ideal" organisation. Starfleet are actually pirates with the Federation economy based on theft. Citizens of the Federation do not require money as they steal everyone elses assets. Where diplomacy is looking like it might not work out they send a heavily armed starship with the Captain acting as a "diplomat".

Starfleet also go to great lengths to commit genocide, especially when threatened by an advanced civilisation such as the Borg. Starfleet operates in a similar fashion to the Roman Empire. There is a reason why Starfleet has so many enemies.

In the context of the game a significant number of players will be acting as pirates out in the neutral zone.

Good to see that Anarchism still exists in the 25th Century.

[Khern]

I think at this point, it is time to agree to disagree. For the very simple reason that Star Trek is fictional. While there is canon and there is expanded universe and everything else, the answer comes down to how the individual defines the military.

For all of us who believe Starfleet to be the armed forces of the United Federation of Planets, it might be so because we endlessly compare it to the model it was built upon and how military forces work around the world. Also including coastguard and military-funded science.

For all those who believe Starfleet is not the military, they have their points too. Not all explorers were a part of the military. There is Chrisopher Colombus, Marco Polo and Fridtjof Nansen just to mention a few. Colombus didn't travel unarmed. Neither did Nansen. But then again, none of these were members of a huge and organized system.

The one conclusion one can draw on Starfleet and perhaps agree upon is what I call a foundation fact. To be able to manage so large a space-faring force, military or not, it needs strict guidelines, discipline and command protocol. What the question ultimately comes down to is if this is synonymous with being "Military" or not.

Personally, as I already stated, I believe the Starfleet is the Federation defense force and such the Military. That said, I will accept that some of you do not. After all, the Federation itself is built upon an Utopian idea, a society built upon peace and common understanding and abundance. But even such a society would understand that there must be a military, because many species in the galaxy will not share their ideas.

One could argue that Starfleet lives a twin-existence. On one hand, it is the Utopian fleet of explorers and scientists, working on bettering life and trying to understand, develop and progress. On the other hand it does seem to be the guardian of the Federation it serves. I use the word guardian on purpose. Perhaps, just perhaps, it is possible for both views to be true at the same time.

[Xolox]

One could argue that Starfleet lives a twin-existence. On one hand, it is the Utopian fleet of explorers and scientists, working on bettering life and trying to understand, develop and progress. On the other hand it does seem to be the guardian of the Federation it serves. I use the word guardian on purpose. Perhaps, just perhaps, it is possible for both views to be true at the same time.

You seem to be arguing that Starfleet may be a sophisticated organisation that is more competent than a typical modern military force. This sort of rational posting is unacceptable on this forum.

[scottmana]

Does it really matter? One thing to realize about a military is that it really has to get it's job done. It can't fail. This attitude and organization can look like non-military organizations when they start to take on responsibilities were they just can't fail often and hope to try again.

Levels of rank, enlistment, independent justice systems and so on are not the signs of a military, they are the signs of an elite organization. One that keeps itself in line and on it's main purpose. It just so happens that militaries get forced into this if they wish to be effective. The jack-of-all-tades effect sets in mostly because they, unlike most others, can get the job done.

[Xolox]

Levels of rank, enlistment, independent justice systems and so on are not the signs of a military, they are the signs of an elite organization.

What? A justice system means that they are enforcing law, in this case military law.

[cmahecha]

I don't think starfleet is the military, but I think the military is part of starfleet.

I see it as some kind of united nations. They handle all kind of affairs (mostly non-military affairs), but they are able to field an army when needed. The army is composed from people from all over the federation, and join when needed.

Probably most captains are treated as explorers, diplomats, etc, but part of their contract states that they may be called to duty in time of war (when I say "called" I mean conscripted).