A sense of Community

[discopunk1118]

I'm looking forward to this game and doubt it will be a failure as CO, contradictary to popular belief, has been a success. That is aside from the point though. I envision a game where players can come together and explore new planets, fight off the opposing faction, attend diplomatic sessions and so on. Please....PLEASE do not let this game become the solo fest that CO is. This is an MMO....we pay a fee to be with others as we journey through the unknown. It is up to us to show the Dev's that we want to group. The CO forum had been full of .....I JUST WANNA PLAY BY MYSELF posts for weeks. Let's make 2049 a good year..... Live long and prosper or Q'pla!!!! whatever floats your boat :D

[Dext]

I'm looking forward to this game and doubt it will be a failure as CO, contradictary to popular belief, has been a success. That is aside from the point though. I envision a game where players can come together and explore new planets, fight off the opposing faction, attend diplomatic sessions and so on. Please....PLEASE do not let this game become the solo fest that CO is. This is an MMO....we pay a fee to be with others as we journey through the unknown. It is up to us to show the Dev's that we want to group. The CO forum had been full of .....I JUST WANNA PLAY BY MYSELF posts for weeks. Let's make 2049 a good year..... Live long and prosper or Q'pla!!!! whatever floats your boat :D

A lot of use would like to see this but it would only take a small group of people to put a dent into what was a good Community.

[Jaxston]

I love you guys.....:)

You mean like that :cool:

[KO_Gilligan]

We should be better organized in Fleet groups, I'm sure it would benefit our chance into beta, especially those who didn't buy the sub deals.

[discopunk1118]

A lot of use would like to see this but it would only take a small group of people to put a dent into what was a good Community.

Thats why we must be louder than them when the game comes out. The smartest people usually have the least to say....as much as I follow this, in order for this to be a greatgame we are going to need to break that rule.

[Chenchuan]

If I want to hang out with people I can just use ICQ and save the $14.99 a month. Frankly I think all grouping should be reserved for PVP or other incursions into FED space.

[discopunk1118]

Chenchuan you must realise that this is an MMO. There are plenty of good single player games available with great rpg features for those that rather solo.

[mrwalsh]

Frankly I think all grouping should be reserved for PVP or other incursions into FED space.

I agree with that in the sense of reserving forced grouping for those things. It should be possible to group for just about anything, any time (maybe even encouraged, just as long as you don't do it like DDO and punish for not grouping), but the only time groups should be required is in PvP and endgame super PVE missions.

]Chenchuan you must realise that this is an MMO. There are plenty of good single player games available with great rpg features for those that rather solo.

I like to play with other people; see their ships flying around, encounter them in unlikely places and share random experiences, but I do so cooperatively as I wish. MMO just means there are a lot of people playing in the same environment. It doesn't provide any indication as to how. That may be one of the reasons I couldn't stick with WoW, and GW made it to the top of my list.

[discopunk1118]

I'm not saying that everything has to be forced groups...I'm just saying that in CO for some reason many people prefered to be left alone. If you even said Hi to someone they flew away. Nothing ever went on and It has become more of a single player game than it should be. I hope that in this game people actually socialize and if someone says....hey lets all go check out whats going on outside of *enter planet here* people actually go and follow. I just hope its a little more worldly than just seeing people around you.

[Replica]

If I want to hang out with people I can just use ICQ and save the $14.99 a month. Frankly I think all grouping should be reserved for PVP or other incursions into FED space.
And if I want to play a single player game while IM-ing, I would also save to $15 a month. But I want a multi-player game, not Massively Single Player game like Champions Online.
I'm not saying that everything has to be forced groups.

But there should be some forced groups, just as there should be some forced solo. Personal storyline episodes (think nighttime missions in AoC) can be much heavier on plot if they are solo. Most every other mission can be much heavier on fun if they are grouped. But if there are not a significant number of good episodes in each tier that require grouping then players will become habituated to solo play and the few of us who play casually but like to group will spend all day looking for a PUG instead of getting to sit down and enjoy the game.

Someone in the CO Dev team said how they hated wasting time "looking for a healer", well in CO I was wasting a lot of time looking for anyone to group up with.

Solo is not multi-player.

[jeroen84]

I think the region star map, where you can see all the ships in the neigborhoud will greatly inspire the community.

I will at least check out what others will be doing and see if they need help. :) I understood that you can also see if theyre being attacked by klingons and such..

[mrwalsh]

I'm not saying that everything has to be forced groups...I'm just saying that in CO for some reason many people prefered to be left alone. If you even said Hi to someone they flew away. Nothing ever went on and It has become more of a single player game than it should be. I hope that in this game people actually socialize and if someone says....hey lets all go check out whats going on outside of *enter planet here* people actually go and follow. I just hope its a little more worldly than just seeing people around you.

heh Well that I can get behind. I'm always friendly to the people I pass on the road, and usually willing to help someone out in need.

[Tanktreads]

Guys they KNEW about people wanting to solo before they made the game! Thats why we can just go bum around with our away team. So yes they can give us a whole host of things that should require a group but they can cover that with the away team. and if they want to do raid content by themselves.... umm need I define a raid?

[Replica]

Guys they KNEW about people wanting to solo before they made the game! Thats why we can just go bum around with our away team. So yes they can give us a whole host of things that should require a group but they can cover that with the away team. and if they want to do raid content by themselves.... umm need I define a raid?

But should I have to play all the way to endgame to finally have some good group only content?

Solo is not Multi-player.

[mrwalsh]

But should I have to play all the way to endgame to finally have some good group only content?

Solo is not Multi-player.

More than one player in a single environment means that environment has multiple players. A shortened method of saying multiple player environment is multi-player. Besides, I don't see how not having group forced content doesn't mean that you can't play together. They have the 5-man away teams, you're just opting to play with a less capable bot or a more capable person. It doesn't take much brainpower either to see where the advantage lies in using multiple ships in a mission over a single ship.

All they really need to do is add a 'hard mode.' Massively increased difficulty with massively increased reward. That way you can solo or group normal, and if you're really, really good you can also solo hard, but you're more likely to find a group.

[Replica]

More than one player in a single environment means that environment has multiple players. .

That's like saying riding a crowded city bus is the same a a road trip with friends. This is about the game having community. A community is not just a bunch of people that happen to be in the same place, it is about shared experiences and shared journeys.

I would hope that Star Trek would attract a slightly more mature crowd then the "she-elf in chainmail bikini" games. Along with that I would hope that the more mature crowd would actually hold an appreciation for interacting and adventuring with other flawed humans. But to have a game environment where that can happen, then teaming up has to be highly valued by the game designers. Teaming has to be positively encouraged by the game challenge/reward mechanics.

I don't care if they would feel "punished" for playing solo. The soloer's slower ranking speed and fewer available episodes are just the cost of being anti-social. But think about how hardcore they will look to all those people playing near them who don't know them because they never actually interact.

[mrwalsh]

That's like saying riding a crowded city bus is the same a a road trip with friends. This is about the game having community. A community is not just a bunch of people that happen to be in the same place, it is about shared experiences and shared journeys.

What? Are you implying that you're friends with every member of a game community? I think a better analogy is the option of riding a bus alone or with friends. Most of these people I will never see again or meet personally, and most of the people I see and meet in game will just be people who happen to be in the same place. Either state of being doesn't deny the fact the bus has multiple passengers, and other passengers may be traveling together.

I don't like forced group content because most groups are idiots. There's no concept of group pacing (everyone has to get everything done as fast as possible), teamwork is good only when you're absolutely lucky (because people care more about themselves than the team), and everything always ends up being someone else's fault (nobody has the balls to take responsibility, they'll cry and yell then ragequit). I like to take my time; wander around leisurely, enjoy the environments. Even get up and come back to the game whenever I want, regardless of where I am or what I'm doing (in combat or timed instances being an exception of course).

Forced teamplay or punishing solo players is just punishing people for playing on both accounts. I'm not a big fan of 'have friends, make friends, or GTFO you antisocial loser.' If I play with people it's because I find people I want to play with; not because I have to in order to continue the game, or to not be gimped. Forced groups in most cases provide no more social interaction than riding the bus with strangers.

They should have team only content, but it shouldn't be necessary for progression, and it should be entirely optional without ill-effect.

[rabidchocobo]

I enjoy various forms of cheese.

[Chenchuan]

if you have 4 or 5 captains on an away mission, who gets the hot space chick?

[Vaercolac]

Amen, OP. CoH/V had a great teaming system that still allowed you to solo - I was really surprised to find almost no trace of that in CO.

if you have 4 or 5 captains on an away mission, who gets the hot space chick?
Why can't there be 4 or 5 hot space chicks?

[kkmccall]

Amen, OP. CoH/V had a great teaming system that still allowed you to solo - I was really surprised to find almost no trace of that in CO.

CoX (City of Heroes/Villains) had the perfect mix of both solo & group play, once the 'Radio' (Hero) & Newspaper (Villain) missions were implemented.

The instanced play allowed the missions to scale with the size of the groups. It was also possible to call in a new group member when one of your original group had to leave mid mission.

In CoX you could happily group all the way to 50. In CoX you could happily solo all the way to 50.

My main 'gripe' with CoX, however, was the tiny 'Quest Log' (3 missions max)

CoX, like WoW, never 'Forced' anyone to group - once the Radio/Newspaper missions were implemented. Previous to that addition, it was not very solo friendly.

As to the issue of this thread - to 'Force' players to team/group & remove the players (paying customer) choice to solo, I will not be re-writing what I have already said on the subject here.

I will simply link the two posts.

Post 1 (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=867167&postcount=62)

Post 2 (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=869948&postcount=90)


Why can't there be 4 or 5 hot space chicks?

Because there's only me & I'm not for sharing :p

[Replica]

What? Are you implying that you're friends with every member of a game community?.

No I'm saying that I become friends in game by teaming with them. If people don't have something pushing them to work together, then they tend to not work together. But it is only when they work together that they form friendships and community. That's not even confined to gaming, that's just basic social science.

In short I'm saying that without an in-game advantage to teaming there will be little to no game "community", just a bunch of people playing near each other. Those two things are worlds apart.

[mrwalsh]

No I'm saying that I become friends in game by teaming with them. If people don't have something pushing them to work together, then they tend to not work together. But it is only when they work together that they form friendships and community. That's not even confined to gaming, that's just basic social science.

In short I'm saying that without an in-game advantage to teaming there will be little to no game "community", just a bunch of people playing near each other. Those two things are worlds apart.

I know what you're saying. I was commenting on the illogical boundaries of your analogy. One you don't seem to be following too well...

Teaming with people is one thing. Being forced to team with people is another. Team forcing is a mechanic needed for an antisocial community. Maybe you should read what I'm saying. I'm not saying I don't want to play with people. I'm saying I don't want to be forced to play with random people or be punished for it. A strong community develops from willing player interaction, not forced player interaction. That's basic social science (unless you're talking about like a slave rebellion or something).

Look at dedicated servers in your typical PC FPS vs. the servers you'll find on a console. You find the server you like, with people that play by rules you like and follow whatever set of manners you prefer. You may choose to integrate yourself into the group, or just play there with like minded individuals. With a console, you're forced to play with whoever the computer pairs you with, and for the most part it's people who have no business wearing a headset. One of those actually creates a community. The other is just a headache.

People will play with each other because they want to play with each other. That's a sign of a strong community. You all ride the bus, it's up to you whether or not to talk to the person sitting next to you. That's what a community is. Forced cooperation means you'll always find a partner, no matter how much no one wants to play with you. That means you can be a total jerk to the guy next to you on the bus, but he still has to sit with you or the driver makes him walk (this as an analogy for solo punishing; you get where you're going, but slower). I don't like that.

If you don't think a community will build without forced teamwork gameplay, then I'll take that as a reflection on your character. I don't have any problem with personal interactions. I'm tired of games where random people team to kill mobs, just to get a party xp bonus. They don't talk to each other, they don't work together, they just happen to be in the same area killing the same thing. That's not my idea of social interaction. Going back to your other analogy, it's like a road trip with hitchhikers you pick up and ignore, then never see again.

[Zepath]

Why can't there be 4 or 5 hot space chicks?

Just make friends, in game, with the ladies and play with them. :D

If you aren't hitting on them, the ladies are some of the best friends and team-mates you can have in game.

They are usually smarter than the men (at least smarter than I am), they don't have the whole testosterone thing going on, they are patient, determined, and loyal ... and in PvP they can be 10 times more ruthless than a man.

And no, I'm not being sarcastic or joking. :)

[JesseH21]

there should be missions where you have to group up (aside frm admiral level stuff) to beat it, and stuff you can solo... MMO's are group based.... so it should have a mix of both to cater to everyone's wishes.

[Vaercolac]

My main 'gripe' with CoX, however, was the tiny 'Quest Log' (3 missions max)
You know, I actually kind of liked that. I felt more focused on the story arcs. In other games, I always feel like I'm doing a dozen different things for a dozen different people, and I tend to lose track of any story.

But then, my attention span is shorter than my little toe...

Just make friends, in game, with the ladies and play with them. :D
Show me a lady on the internet and I'll show you a guy on the internet :p

And no, I'm not being sarcastic or joking. :)
Joking aside, I tend to agree.

[Tanktreads]

Just make friends, in game, with the ladies and play with them. :D

If you aren't hitting on them, the ladies are some of the best friends and team-mates you can have in game.

They are usually smarter than the men (at least smarter than I am), they don't have the whole testosterone thing going on, they are patient, determined, and loyal ... and in PvP they can be 10 times more ruthless than a man.

And no, I'm not being sarcastic or joking. :)

Agreed, in my guild Decepticons I had more women than men for the life of the guild. Though I have to disagree they are still the best players ven if you hit on them, just gotta be good at it ;)

[jeroen84]

I really hope for the following:

- Doing episodic content in a group brings greater rewards then solo play
- Good social tools for finding a group and Fleet/Guild

[Zepath]

Agreed, in my guild Decepticons I had more women than men for the life of the guild. Though I have to disagree they are still the best players ven if you hit on them, just gotta be good at it ;)

I've just never seen a quicker way to destroy an in-game friendship faster than hitting on a lady ... they come in the game to play not get hit on (most of them). If they are interested in you, today's women have no problem letting you know it.

I'm happily married anyway ... so I don't go down that path, but I've seen it time after time in games.

That said, I know two couples (one married for 10 years now, the other has been together for like five years) who met online, in a game.

[Zandtar]

No I'm saying that I become friends in game by teaming with them. If people don't have something pushing them to work together, then they tend to not work together. But it is only when they work together that they form friendships and community. That's not even confined to gaming, that's just basic social science.

In short I'm saying that without an in-game advantage to teaming there will be little to no game "community", just a bunch of people playing near each other. Those two things are worlds apart.

Katarine pretty much sums it up in her posts, and there isn't too much to add from my own perspective. Other than, long term effects to the game. Make it a 'forced' team, and what will the game look like down the road after 3 or 4 years? Guilds/Fleets will be established, and anyone new to the game asking about a difficult spot, they're told "Get a guild". Except the established guilds are usually their own locked little cliques and aren't accepting new members.

Or worse, in comes the elitist crowd where a player has to have specific equipment, certain DPS ratings, etc before they're even considered to be allowed to 'team' with them.

[Zandtar]

That said, I know two couples (one married for 10 years now, the other has been together for like five years) who met online, in a game.

I met my wife online. Never really hit on her in that sense.... instead our first interaction (which we still laugh about) was me bonking her. :)

[Jesteruk1972]

It seems to me after reading the posts here there are enough people who want to group together and get know new people that it wont be a problem. I like that fact that it's looks like you will have a choice and not be forced into anything, I really hate Aion right now because it's community is the worst I have ever seen in a game and that game forces people to group like it or not, yet BBO (Bounty Bay Online) has a grate community even thought you don't have to group with anyone if you don't want to. The community is what we make it and can't be forced upon you.

[jeroen84]

No I'm saying that I become friends in game by teaming with them. If people don't have something pushing them to work together, then they tend to not work together. But it is only when they work together that they form friendships and community. That's not even confined to gaming, that's just basic social science.

In short I'm saying that without an in-game advantage to teaming there will be little to no game "community", just a bunch of people playing near each other. Those two things are worlds apart.

This should be taken as truth in game design. :cool:

[Zandtar]

This should be taken as truth in game design. :cool:

The only truth in designing a game around that concept is that they won't be getting a subscription fee from me. :cool:

[power123]

a game even an MMO shouldn't force you to group up but reward you if you do.

so you should be able to play though 90% of the content solo but the greater rewards will be in the instanced 10% of the game. in GW there are towns were you can accept a mission so for STO hanging a space station somewhere shouldn't be much different. ofc just like wow drops should be randomized and the instace should be repeteable. that sort of things will get players to play together.

still if you mainly want to solo but want to group up occasionally (like me) you can easily have your way.

[hellsh]

Why can't there be 4 or 5 hot space chicks?

It is space, not heaven.

[Replica]

a game even an MMO shouldn't force you to group up but reward you if you do.
.

But as soon as you do you are "punishing" the soloer, and "forcing them to group". Al least in there eyes. That is why I push so hard against the "fully-soloable" crowd. Any incentive towards grouping is shouted down as an affront to their choice to solo.

[kkmccall]

But as soon as you do you are "punishing" the soloer, and "forcing them to group". Al least in there eyes. That is why I push so hard against the "fully-soloable" crowd. Any incentive towards grouping is shouted down as an affront to their choice to solo.


The "fully-soloable" crowd only wishes to be able to progress their character without the 'Bottlenecks' that Forces Grouping. Nearly every mmo I know has an xp-multiplier for teams, even World of Warcraft, I believe.

Group Instances have better loot than found outside of instances. The solo player only wishes to have the choice to be able to solo from level 1 to max level without Forced Group Mechanics. Having better loot, or the 'Phatt Lewt' in a group instance is certainly not 'punishing' the the solo player, merely rewarding those who team. If the solo player really, wants that same 'phatt lewt', then they know that they will have to team to get it. That is not 'forcing', that is a players choice if he wants it.

On a personal note, I am all for the phatt lewt being in a group instance. That phatt lewt certainly isn't going to stop me from progressing my character at my pace, but if I want it I will form a team with friends & go get it.

So, if any solo player states that by not having that phatt lewt option for solo, then that is not a solo player, merely a greedy player.

[Dr._Sskarno]

[QUOTE=GoldenSpandex]I'm looking forward to this game and doubt it will be a failure as CO, contradictary to popular belief, has been a success. That is aside from the point though. I envision a game where players can come together and explore new planets, fight off the opposing faction, attend diplomatic sessions and so on. Please....PLEASE do not let this game become the solo fest that CO is. This is an MMO....we pay a fee to be with others as we journey through the unknown. It is up to us to show the Dev's that we want to group. The CO forum had been full of .....I JUST WANNA PLAY BY MYSELF posts for weeks. Let's make 2049 a good year..... Live long and prosper or Q'pla!!!! whatever floats your boat :D[/QUOTE

I find your post selfish. I pay the same fee YOU do, and I DON'T enjoy grouping. MMO stands for "Massively Multiplayer as in it is a persistent world inhabited by MORE THAN ONE PLAYER, NOT EVERYONE MUST GROUP ". If I couldnt solo I wouldn't play the game and that would still be one less option for you wouldn't it?

Besides, where are all these supposed " i just wanna play by myself" posts you speak of?
:mad:

[Replica]

The "fully-soloable" crowd only wishes to be able to progress their character without the 'Bottlenecks' that Forces Grouping. Nearly every mmo I know has an xp-multiplier for teams, even World of Warcraft, I believe.

Group Instances have better loot than found outside of instances. The solo player only wishes to have the choice to be able to solo from level 1 to max level without Forced Group Mechanics. Having better loot, or the 'Phatt Lewt' in a group instance is certainly not 'punishing' the the solo player, merely rewarding those who team. If the solo player really, wants that same 'phatt lewt', then they know that they will have to team to get it. That is not 'forcing', that is a players choice if he wants it.

I can fully agree with that idea of soloability. That was not how I saw soloability implemented in Champions Online. There was no xp-multiplier, or mob multiplier in the instanced areas at launch or first patch or second patch. I find it difficult to trust Cryptic to get that right in STO.

Katarine,
Even though we have approached this topic from very different viewpoints over more then one thread, I appreciate the clarity and levelheadedness of your posts on this an other topics. I thank you for your contributions to this community, and I hope to see you in-game. (even if you are soloing :p)

[bobalobabingbong]

Chenchuan you must realise that this is an MMO. There are plenty of good single player games available with great rpg features for those that rather solo.

But what if I want to play STO? I'm not saying that I would never group. I like to, but I also like to go solo a lot.

[Zandtar]

But as soon as you do you are "punishing" the soloer, and "forcing them to group". Al least in there eyes. That is why I push so hard against the "fully-soloable" crowd. Any incentive towards grouping is shouted down as an affront to their choice to solo.

Not to me. I just want the option to choose to group up, or solo on a particular day. Adding incentives to group isn't 'punishing' me in the slightest, as I willingly make the choice to solo or not. But, take that choice away from me, and then yes, you are punishing me.

There's nothing wrong with letting players have choice in the game. No one side is any 'better' than the other.

[discopunk1118]

[QUOTE=GoldenSpandex]I'm looking forward to this game and doubt it will be a failure as CO, contradictary to popular belief, has been a success. That is aside from the point though. I envision a game where players can come together and explore new planets, fight off the opposing faction, attend diplomatic sessions and so on. Please....PLEASE do not let this game become the solo fest that CO is. This is an MMO....we pay a fee to be with others as we journey through the unknown. It is up to us to show the Dev's that we want to group. The CO forum had been full of .....I JUST WANNA PLAY BY MYSELF posts for weeks. Let's make 2049 a good year..... Live long and prosper or Q'pla!!!! whatever floats your boat :D[/QUOTE

I find your post selfish. I pay the same fee YOU do, and I DON'T enjoy grouping. MMO stands for "Massively Multiplayer as in it is a persistent world inhabited by MORE THAN ONE PLAYER, NOT EVERYONE MUST GROUP ". If I couldnt solo I wouldn't play the game and that would still be one less option for you wouldn't it?

Besides, where are all these supposed " i just wanna play by myself" posts you speak of?
:mad:

Hi i just noticed that my thread grew 3 pages over the night lol...anyways to answer your question.... I'm referring to what has happened in other games, mainly CO. For some reason (as I mentioned in another post) there seems to be a leave me alone mentality in that game. This is also due to Cryptic not implementing that many rewards for grouping or just fun missions in general. The way I see it is that everyone should be able to solo to max level but those that take the time to group and do raids should gain rewards, and by rewards I mean awesomely cool loot, instead of just xp. Now I want to emphasise that my original post is more about the community than grouping. I'm hoping that players actually interact instead of the recent trend in which people just rather be left alone....Say Hi to someone in CO or do you need help....they fly away :( lol

[Zepath]

But what if I want to play STO? I'm not saying that I would never group. I like to, but I also like to go solo a lot.

If you want to play baseball, you aren't playing alone ... STO may be no different in its end-game. If they designed the game as a "team sport", then you play as a team, or you don't play.

Now, people can QQ all they want that they made it a team sport but the fact remains, they have to design the game the way they see fit, the way they told their financial inverters they were going to design it, the way the IP owner agrees they can design it, and in a way that will make the company the most money in the end.

[Dr._Sskarno]

[QUOTE=Dr._Sskarno;871815]

Hi i just noticed that my thread grew 3 pages over the night lol...anyways to answer your question.... I'm referring to what has happened in other games, mainly CO. For some reason (as I mentioned in another post) there seems to be a leave me alone mentality in that game. This is also due to Cryptic not implementing that many rewards for grouping or just fun missions in general. The way I see it is that everyone should be able to solo to max level but those that take the time to group and do raids should gain rewards, and by rewards I mean awesomely cool loot, instead of just xp. Now I want to emphasise that my original post is more about the community than grouping. I'm hoping that players actually interact instead of the recent trend in which people just rather be left alone....Say Hi to someone in CO or do you need help....they fly away :( lol

Thanks for clarifying. It just irks me seeing all these posts that seem to push one style of play without caring how it impacts someone else's enjoyment of the game. For the record I like meeting and chatting with other players, I just dont like running missions with them.

[kkmccall]

....I'm hoping that players actually interact instead of the recent trend in which people just rather be left alone....Say Hi to someone in CO or do you need help....they fly away :( lol


I think the real problem is the game itself. Champions Online isn't really like other MMO's. In alot of areas it really isn't solo friendly, although you can solo. It is more the layout of the game just feels 'odd' & I am having a hard time putting my finger on it.

Maybe it's the pretty tame Death Penalty. Maybe it is the instanced server. Maybe it's that there isn't really a great deal of diversity in quests, in that if you are playing an Alt, there really isn't much choice in the direction you go. It's all quite linear. Maybe it is because each player, with the ability to add any power choice they choose, they can create their own 'Holy Trinity' within their own character.

Maybe it is the leveling System. In most other MMO's you 'Ding' & then off to Trainer, buy the skills & back into the action. In games like Lineage & Aion, you can buy your skill books ahead of time (if you know you will level during a group session, to save making the group wait whilst you go train). In Champions Online, going into the Power House can be a mission unto itself, especially if you don't really know exactly what power you want. I've known friends to be in there nearly two hours trying out powers & still unable to make a decision (this is not very group friendly).

Sterile, hollow, lack of real depth, linear, repetitive, are probably some words I would use to describe Champions Online.

As for Group content, apart from Telios Tower in Canada, the Prison in the Desert & Dr Destroyers Lab in Millenium City, I don't know if there is much more.

I think it is a mistake to lay this at the feet of the solo'ers. Alot of people I know have felt this too, & have commented on it. Champions Online just feels 'odd' - I wish I could be more precise & be able to pin it down.

Maybe if they fix the chat, so it spans all instances of the zone may go some way to fix this, I don't know.

... & are those Zombies supposed to be untargetable & indestructible? :confused:

[discopunk1118]

Yea i mentioned in my earlier post that it is also due to the severe lack of group content. It was a short term buy for me anywho...it'll keep me entertained till the end of this year and then from there on I will probably be doing something else to kill some time. When Feb comes....1.) we will have a release date...2.) this forum is gonna be fuller than ever and the web will probably be updated everyday...that should keep me entertained.

[power123]

But as soon as you do you are "punishing" the soloer, and "forcing them to group". Al least in there eyes. That is why I push so hard against the "fully-soloable" crowd. Any incentive towards grouping is shouted down as an affront to their choice to solo.

not really imho. you can sill do hard forced solo mission that makes you completive but not maxed out.

honestly I have played WoW for 2,5 year (or so) I could happily solo a lot of stuff there still I knew dungeons where the place you could get the best stuff. so I did the small group stuff from time to time and raided once or twice per expansion. my main was a feral druid(kitty spec) but I had loads of alts just because I liked levelling. why? solo play. I love a game where there is max-level solo content other than grinding. simply because I don't like raiding on a weekly basis.

I like content that can be played whit in a half hour from logging in not having to make arrangements whit 25+ people to be on line at a given time. i play in my time and I wanna have fun from the get go.


plus PvP is to my point of view always all alone....
no matter how many others are around you no one come to help you out (unless the can gain some benefit from it)

[bobalobabingbong]

If you want to play baseball, you aren't playing alone ... STO may be no different in its end-game. If they designed the game as a "team sport", then you play as a team, or you don't play.

Now, people can QQ all they want that they made it a team sport but the fact remains, they have to design the game the way they see fit, the way they told their financial inverters they were going to design it, the way the IP owner agrees they can design it, and in a way that will make the company the most money in the end.

That anology doesn't work. Baseball was made as a team sport, as you said, but STO is not. The devs have said in chat that there is plenty of solo content. I personally don't see why anyone would care if I wanted to solo. I have a busy life, and sometimes, I can only play a game for an hour or so. I get into Aion all the time just to do a quest, then have to log. I do like to group, but only when I know I have the time to dedicate to a group.

[power123]

I personally don't see why anyone would care if I wanted to solo. I have a busy life, and sometimes, I can only play a game for an hour or so. I get into Aion all the time just to do a quest, then have to log. I do like to group, but only when I know I have the time to dedicate to a group.

replace aion whit WoW or GW and this comment could have come from me.

[mrwalsh]

plus PvP is to my point of view always all alone....
no matter how many others are around you no one come to help you out (unless the can gain some benefit from it)

That, sadly, is a reflection on the game design. It's easy enough to set team-oriented goals and to drive team-oriented play, and just as easy to completely fail to do so while trying to. PvP in GW is both entertaining and rewarding, and the teams that don't work together lose. I've played PvP in plenty of other games though that left a bad taste (WoW being one of them).

WoW actually had some cool ideas early on. They had this whole world at war system that would actually encourage player raids on enemy territories. I remember in the open beta the first time I saw the global message: "such and such [npc] is under attack at Elwynn Forest!" I was up in Dwarven lands chilling doing some quests, and as soon as that message popped up every Human player in the area stopped what they were doing and ran for the nearest Griffon. heh It was prolly some dude wandering around and accidentally aggroed an NPC (and then took off), but within minutes we had 30 or 40 players on location forming scouting/search parties and patrolling the area... That was just at the beginning too, things escalated from there. Hundreds of players loading up at Booty Bay (simultaneously) to board the ship for raiding horde lands, various player incursions on the bordering areas of Alliance territory, and so on; all communicated through area chat and globally by the players that ranked high enough.

Not sure what happened (I think the dishonorable kill system might have had something to do with it), but when I picked it up later on (about a year later) the only real world PvP I saw was rogues camping lowbie hot-spots, and 2 or 3 level 60's leading parties of lowbies and ganking enemy lowbie towns in contested areas (not sure how many times I got killed that way at Lakeshire or Sun Rock Retreat). The rest were all waiting for their turn in those arenas. Awesome player driven war mechanic turned into something largely ignored, or a minor annoyance at best. YMMV of course, but that's one of the reasons I'm always a little dubious when "player-driven" becomes a phrase used in relation to a game design feature. Not to say player driven never works... just that there's a fine line you have to draw to make it really work.

I'd say that last point is the biggest worry you guys have with creating a community. Community growth encouragement though is generally executed far more horribly than any other feature in MMO's (as much from not being rigid enough as to being way too strict)... so that's why I'm always worried when I hear things like 'required' or 'forced.'

[Demonspirit]

there needs to be a balance to it. you should be able to solo to max level but attaining great gear should alays require teaming. this is what made wow popular it you could log on and level solo if you didn't have time to team. I am sure alot of people will say wow sucks and yada yada but fact remains what made it a giant was you weren't forced to solo OR team you could do both and still feel accomplished because of it.

[power123]

@ CaptThad

i can't say you are wrong. still most PvP players (I know) don't care about other people. they won't come to save you/help you out. non of them pick up healing. they fight for themselves and expect you to do the same even if they are 5 meters away from you.

GW gave me a worst taste from PvP than WoW. getting cornered without anyone helping out (they were close enough) and not being able to jump 1 meter down of a ledge to escape. :S that never happened to me in WoW at least.

[mrwalsh]

@ CaptThad

i can't say you are wrong. still most PvP players (I know) don't care about other people. they won't come to save you/help you out. non of them pick up healing. they fight for themselves and expect you to do the same even if they are 5 meters away from you.

GW gave me a worst taste from PvP than WoW. getting cornered without anyone helping out (they were close enough) and not being able to jump 1 meter down of a ledge to escape. :S that never happened to me in WoW at least.

heh Sounds like you got stuck with a bad pickup group (a weakness of the random arenas). One of the bad things about cooperative play is that at a certain point in the game's lifecycle, everybody assumes everyone else knows everything. The mechanics for coordinating team builds in GW are there and easy to use, and I've been fortunate enough to usually get the experience where people work together for a team build. I've also had the occasional idiot(s) though, so it can be pretty unfriendly to people who don't play a set way or with pre-existing knowledge.

heh I know all about the getting stuck too... no z-axis in GW. That's something they're throwing in with GW2. :cool:

[power123]

heh Sounds like you got stuck with a bad pickup group (a weakness of the random arenas). One of the bad things about cooperative play is that at a certain point in the game's lifecycle, everybody assumes everyone else knows everything. The mechanics for coordinating team builds in GW are there and easy to use, and I've been fortunate enough to usually get the experience where people work together for a team build. I've also had the occasional idiot(s) though, so it can be pretty unfriendly to people who don't play a set way or with pre-existing knowledge.

heh I know all about the getting stuck too... no z-axis in GW. That's something they're throwing in with GW2. :cool:

yea that might have been true.

i might have stuck for a longer time whit the right people. yet PvP is to chaotic for me, I like something you can create a structure in and that's usually PvE play.

GW seamed always to PvP focused to me. later addon's fixed that... still i felt like the game forced me to group up even while soloing i need a group of (dumb) NPC's that s*ks *ss. I never felt heroic because of that. those were the reasons I eventually started to play WoW.... eh well my girlfriend played it that helped whit giving WoW a try. (kept playing at leas 2 years after breaking up though)

and you have to agree that's the worst way to find out you can't jump off a ledge in a game. I can do that irl why shouldn't i be able to do so in a game?

[mrwalsh]

yea that might have been true.

i might have stuck for a longer time whit the right people. yet PvP is to chaotic for me, I like something you can create a structure in and that's usually PvE play.

GW seamed always to PvP focused to me. later addon's fixed that... still i felt like the game forced me to group up even while soloing i need a group of (dumb) NPC's that s*ks *ss. I never felt heroic because of that. those were the reasons I eventually started to play WoW.... eh well my girlfriend played it that helped whit giving WoW a try. (kept playing at leas 2 years after breaking up though)

and you have to agree that's the worst way to find out you can't jump off a ledge in a game. I can do that irl why shouldn't i be able to do so in a game?

Yeah it was originally designed to be a solo game (with co-op missions and versus arenas), but people wanted to play with friends (that's still PvE though, even though you group with people it's not PvP unless you fight people). They made the 'solo areas' into 'explorable areas,' and scaled the content in the areas to new team limits. Then all the other people started complaining that they wanted to be able to solo... so they introduced the henchies. The henchies were pretty dumb in the beginning, and they kept fixing them and tweaking them and providing various henchie alternatives. With the third campaign though, they introduced the Hero system (similar to what they're talking about with BO's in STO), which allows you to actually customize and control particular NPC players.

They're a lot smarter and a lot more effective with skills, and you can choose their skills sets so you can always give them what you need for your team build. They also added flag options so you can position your henchmen group (or each hero individually) and command attack/defend/avoid. The system made the solo play a lot better, and made it so you could actually take on 8 man missions with two players. They had a hero arena for awhile, but they just recently killed it in favor of something better.

It did bring up some of the complaints you see in this thread though; now that people don't necessarily need players, a lot fewer people do team-based content with other players. heh Although it did fix the occasional multi-team missions where you'd have the other team load in with one insane guy and his 7 henchies... now that guy only has 4. They combated the lack of player groups forming with the inclusion of Hard Mode (for all missions and co-op areas; better drops, better xp, and a multitude of exclusive titles and achievements to show how awesome you are). Even with an awesome hero team, that's still pretty rough. Most people party for HM and you can generally find multiple HM parties wherever you go.

It's one of those beautiful times where both sides of the community were arguing, and the designers came up with a way so that everyone got a slice of cake. You had to sit through to the end though for it to get perfected. One of the great things about good online games with a strong community and good dev/player relations: things get done and the game only grows better with age. I'm looking forward to that here with STO, so far most of you seem pretty solid and the devs all seem pretty cool (and very excited about their game). :cool:


heh You can jump off a ledge in real life because the "game engine" is far more advanced. Their game engine couldn't handle the concept, they had to rebuild to get it in there. I think the worst way to find out about the lack of z-axis is getting killed by ranged attacks from a mob party that spawns on a bridge that appears to be 5 stories above you, but the game seems to think is right next to you.

[maika14]

If I want to hang out with people I can just use ICQ and save the $14.99 a month. Frankly I think all grouping should be reserved for PVP or other incursions into FED space.

Then stop playing an MMO >.>

[maika14]

Not to me. I just want the option to choose to group up, or solo on a particular day. Adding incentives to group isn't 'punishing' me in the slightest, as I willingly make the choice to solo or not. But, take that choice away from me, and then yes, you are punishing me.

There's nothing wrong with letting players have choice in the game. No one side is any 'better' than the other.

Do you really not understand? Nobody is saying we're better than you for wanting to group. We're saying, or I am saying, that you are ruining the community by not wanting to group. It's like telling your friends you don't want to hang out, because you'd rather just sit in your room today. I don't - maybe you do...but I don't. Because it's rude. It's about the group, not the individual. By going I contribute, even if sleep sounds more fun, or killing brain cells on TV sounds more pleasant. Some people like playing together, with random people even, but when the solo only, or 'prefer to solo' crowd comes in, they tear it apart by tearing themselves out of the community. Putting themselves in an anti-social bubble. It's like going to school and expecting not to have to talk to classmates, or going to work and ignoring all your co-workers. It's rude. And since you're paying to be in a community, not just a game, just please, if you prefer to solo - get a single player game, and don't ruin it for everyone else.

Let me make it clearer. When a person refuses to group. That makes the person asking less likely to ask again, since he probably had to do it himself, figured out how to do it himself, and if he asks again and is refused again, he may stop asking for help with certain things altogether. So it's a snowball effect when even a single person takes the stance that 'i'm going to play an MMORPG alone its my right and theres nothing wrong with it'. It's bad for the whole. We're not saying you're wrong, we're saying get outta my community game! :p sorry

[maika14]

there needs to be a balance to it. you should be able to solo to max level but attaining great gear should alays require teaming. this is what made wow popular it you could log on and level solo if you didn't have time to team. I am sure alot of people will say wow sucks and yada yada but fact remains what made it a giant was you weren't forced to solo OR team you could do both and still feel accomplished because of it.

It made it popular. But frankly, there were a lot of bad players, and anit-social players. So yea, if cryptic values money over community, then that's definitely the way to go.

[Vaercolac]

Do you really not understand? Nobody is saying we're better than you for wanting to group. We're saying, or I am saying, that you are ruining the community by not wanting to group.
As a player who loves teaming in MMOs, I have to take exception to that last statement. Not everyone has to group. Not everyone should group. It's their game as much as yours, and if they prefer not to group, and the game allows it, then so be it.

They're not "ruining" anything. And by saying that they are, then, yes, you are implying that those who want to group are better than those who do not.

IMHO, the way to encourage grouping is to change the dynamic of "normal" content for people who approach the content as a group. Let the baseline content be soloable - but if a team tackles such content, change it up in some interesting way. More mobs, for instance, or tougher mobs, or more ambushes or patrols - whatever works to encourage actual teamwork.

CoH has been mentioned for having this sort of dynamic content that is responsive to team size. It's a good model - and it's too bad that a lot of players seem to have a kneejerk dislike of the instanced quest system that makes it possible.

[rabidchocobo]

"Sense of Community," indeed. This thread is a gripe-fest. You like A. I like B. Since we clearly can't compromise, or speak to each other with decency, or just have a cold drink, the winner is probably the one who yells the loudest.

[Dr._Sskarno]

"Sense of Community," indeed. This thread is a gripe-fest. You like A. I like B. Since we clearly can't compromise, or speak to each other with decency, or just have a cold drink, the winner is probably the one who yells the loudest.

Indeed. But I wouldn't worry too much. These forums will ultimately represent only a small part of the eventual STO playerbase.

[discopunk1118]

Well I think this thread has helped out some of the community by letting solo-players and group players understand each other a little more. I also think that my thread went from community to solo vs. grouping unlike I had originally meant it to be....I only wanted to get the point across that I look forward (and hope everyone else does too) to playing with everyone and enjoying the Star Trek universe unlike ever before.

[mrwalsh]

"Sense of Community," indeed. This thread is a gripe-fest. You like A. I like B. Since we clearly can't compromise, or speak to each other with decency, or just have a cold drink, the winner is probably the one who yells the loudest.

heh Thanks for reminding me about the bottled teas in my bag. Been stuck at work all day (which is why I'm posting so much :D), and totally forgot about the roast beef wrap and the green tea I had stashed. Enjoying that now, thanks to you. :cool:

[Antagonist]

Well I think this thread has helped out some of the community by letting solo-players and group players understand each other a little more. I also think that my thread went from community to solo vs. grouping unlike I had originally meant it to be....I only wanted to get the point across that I look forward (and hope everyone else does too) to playing with everyone and enjoying the Star Trek universe unlike ever before.

ya, threads tend to do that; you can start one about fluffy kittens, and it will turn into an animal rights flame war(Actually saw this happen once; long story:D)

[discopunk1118]

ya, threads tend to do that; you can start one about fluffy kittens, and it will turn into an animal rights flame war(Actually saw this happen once; long story:D)

lol thats just the way it is

[Osias]

I have a very pretty hat.

I think we can all agree on this.

[jojobean]

Do you really not understand? Nobody is saying we're better than you for wanting to group. We're saying, or I am saying, that you are ruining the community by not wanting to group. It's like telling your friends you don't want to hang out, because you'd rather just sit in your room today. I don't - maybe you do...but I don't. Because it's rude. It's about the group, not the individual. By going I contribute, even if sleep sounds more fun, or killing brain cells on TV sounds more pleasant. Some people like playing together, with random people even, but when the solo only, or 'prefer to solo' crowd comes in, they tear it apart by tearing themselves out of the community. Putting themselves in an anti-social bubble. It's like going to school and expecting not to have to talk to classmates, or going to work and ignoring all your co-workers. It's rude. And since you're paying to be in a community, not just a game, just please, if you prefer to solo - get a single player game, and don't ruin it for everyone else.

Let me make it clearer. When a person refuses to group. That makes the person asking less likely to ask again, since he probably had to do it himself, figured out how to do it himself, and if he asks again and is refused again, he may stop asking for help with certain things altogether. So it's a snowball effect when even a single person takes the stance that 'i'm going to play an MMORPG alone its my right and theres nothing wrong with it'. It's bad for the whole. We're not saying you're wrong, we're saying get outta my community game! :p sorry

All u can do really is let these people be no sense getting worked up about it. Just exclude them from the invites and the community. They will get bored with the game and move on to the next mmo whining why isn't the game more soloable. Its a dead horse.

I've ran into these people before u try to talk to them , they ignore u, u try to help them they nerdrage at u. However these or a general number of them wonder why they aren't at the top or why everyone else has good equipment. And they don't. Tbh I'd rather not have these people in mmos period and do have a hand in ruining mmos.

[rabidchocobo]

heh Thanks for reminding me about the bottled teas in my bag. Been stuck at work all day (which is why I'm posting so much :D), and totally forgot about the roast beef wrap and the green tea I had stashed. Enjoying that now, thanks to you. :cool:

I HELPED!! I now have a distant chance of qualifying for heaven.

[Tanktreads]

I believe that the away team is the answer to the groups are required concerns, except for raids of course, but asking for solo able raid content is... well... silly.

[Zandtar]

Do you really not understand? Nobody is saying we're better than you for wanting to group. We're saying, or I am saying, that you are ruining the community by not wanting to group. It's like telling your friends you don't want to hang out, because you'd rather just sit in your room today. I don't - maybe you do...but I don't. Because it's rude. It's about the group, not the individual. By going I contribute, even if sleep sounds more fun, or killing brain cells on TV sounds more pleasant. Some people like playing together, with random people even, but when the solo only, or 'prefer to solo' crowd comes in, they tear it apart by tearing themselves out of the community. Putting themselves in an anti-social bubble. It's like going to school and expecting not to have to talk to classmates, or going to work and ignoring all your co-workers. It's rude. And since you're paying to be in a community, not just a game, just please, if you prefer to solo - get a single player game, and don't ruin it for everyone else.


Actually I do understand. I just do not subscribe to the notion that one play style is the only way to play. Nor do I believe one play style should be ram rod down the entire player base. I prefer to have options available to me, as a player. There are some days I might want to just solo, for a number of reasons. There are other days I might want to group up with either friends or PuG's.

And no, it's not all about "the group". The group does not pay my monthly subscription fee, thus the group doesn't get to dictate to me if I have to group or not. Like it or not, that's part of a community. If you expect people to tolerate your points of view and play style, then you should be expected to reciprocate. If not, that's not a community but rather a dictatorship.


Let me make it clearer. When a person refuses to group. That makes the person asking less likely to ask again, since he probably had to do it himself, figured out how to do it himself, and if he asks again and is refused again, he may stop asking for help with certain things altogether. So it's a snowball effect when even a single person takes the stance that 'i'm going to play an MMORPG alone its my right and theres nothing wrong with it'. It's bad for the whole. We're not saying you're wrong, we're saying get outta my community game! :p sorry

The problem with your whole community argument is that you give the impression that a player is entitled to have other players play with them, even if those other players chose not to. I think we just have a difference of opinion based on perspective. I view the player as an individual, paying customer. They pay their monthly fee and with that should come the ability to play and have fun without someone else dictating to them how they must play. They might not play how you want to play, but that is their choice to make, not yours.

The problem with your argument is that you give the impression that you think of "the community" as some imaginary utopia, where everyone gets along, holds hands and sings Kumbaya. Reality is, communities are a mix of different people, with different priorities and viewpoints. Because of this there are going to be different criteria for each individual on who they wish to associate with, or not. Nothing will change that.