mistharm
10-24-2009, 08:45 AM
So, I was thinking recently... and while this is usually considered a bad thing, an idea came to mind <.<
Namely: It's almost certain that Klingons will have melee weaponry - I can't imagine a Klingon *not* having access at least to Bat'leths, and probably a few other nasty pointy bits besides. That said... what would the Federation use in close combat?*
I realize this sounds a bit odd - my own first reaction was something like "... they don't get INTO close combat if they can help it..."
But thinking about it more I kinda realized that that's not really an option in the present timeline; let me explain my thinking here... (This will take a minute, sorry - if I don't explain all this now however the thread will devolve into "melee combat is always useless in the future" - which, given the STO timeline and tech, may not actually be the case)
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Firearms (including phasers and disruptors) would normally make melee a moot point in all but rather exceptional circumstances: after all - it's not difficult to shoot someone if they have to charge a few dozen meters or more to get to you. It's why you don't see modern armed forces making heavy use of bayonets, let alone swords or axes; as it's just not feasible to close that distance while under fire.
2409 changes that - In 2409 we have personal shields which will stop ranged attacks; but from what I've read, NOT stop melee attacks. This is actually a huge development; even the best modern body armor can't guarantee that it'll stop bullets - not even the first time it's hit. Moreover, if you're shot while in body armor there's a fair chance you'll fall over from the impact. Needless to say - shooting someone in armor is still far, far better than getting close to them while they're shooting at you.
Shields eliminate both of those problems; the weapon may short out the shield, but unless it's particularly advanced or unusual, it *will* keep you alive. Likewise, you probably won't be knocked over if your shield stops a hit, as the attack is never going to actually connect with you (the energy being dissipated against the shield). Further, shields can recharge - so if you have to cover several meters of open ground, and then take cover; you've a far, far better chance of surviving than you would in a real world setting.
And then there's weight - modern body armor isn't exactly light; especially with rifle plates and the like. Shields? Given the screen shots we've seen, the unit can't be particularly heavy. It's not even big enough to show up on the character as far as I can tell. This means you can run faster and longer. (Sure you aren't outrunning phaser beams - but it means there's even less time you're exposed, meaning the shooter has to somehow get your shields down while you're moving at a good sprint un-encumbered by heavy armor.)
Now, on top of making ranged weapons substantially less effective, shields failing to stop melee attacks means that if you can actually get close enough to an opponent with a melee weapon, you'll have the advantage. Without shields of course that doesn't work - you can still kill someone quite easily with a ranged weapon right up close in the real world... but with shields, the one or two shots they get off may not be enough.
Obviously this still leaves us with the question of "Why would I want to run all that way?" - Well usually you wouldn't - even with shields, much of the time it'll just be more efficient to use cover and shoot it out with the enemy. It may be slow going at times, but it'll work.
In tight quarters though, such as boarding actions, caves, urban environments - a melee weapon begins to look like a very good choice. After all, if you encounter someone in a small room, and you're only two steps apart, your shield will likely absorb the one or two phaser shots they can get off - and then you finish the opponent with your melee weapon of choice.
Now for Klingons, this is a non-issue - they carry and use them even if it is crazy dangerous because its' part of their culture and pride. Needless to say, in 2409, Klingons have something of an edge in close quarters fighting just based on a familiarity with close combat weapons, greater strength and resilience compared to most species, and their overall mentality.
The Federation isn't stupid though - and this is where we come to the point of the thread really:
In an environment like this where melee combat is suddenly quite feasible - what kind of weapons would Starfleet issue?
There's several possibilities I can think of:
Fold-out versions of ancient Earth weapons*: (Ex: A fold out longsword, cutlass, or katana like Sulu had in the JJ Abrams movie) - The technology is certainly there, and the Federation isn't going to have a whole lot of tradition behind these weapons - so incorporating technological components and such isn't going to be a big deal to them most likely.
Alien weapons: There's a variety of them out there surely - admittedly most of the ones I know of off the top of my head probably aren't going to work for this purpose (at least that I can think of) - but they exist, so it's not far-fetched to imagine the Federation picking a non-human design if it fulfills the role required.
Something completely new: Perhaps there's a mathematically ideal shape for a close-quarters weapon that's both easy to wield and gives maximum stopping power. I wouldn't find it unusual for Starfleet to come up with something that doesn't really look like anything we've known on Earth.
Something old: One very simple possibility is to slightly modify the Type-3 Phaser design to accept a simple bayonet. While not flashy, it does let you keep a blade handy while not relinquishing your main weapon. It also doesn't run the risk of failing due to a malfunction like a fold-out weapon could.
A tertiary advantage is that a bayonet is a largely defensive weapon - which generally suits the Federation better than being the ones doing the charging. That said it's also a small blade, which against a Klingon might not be worth much, and the design of the Type 3 Phaser would look really *odd* with a bayonet.
The one option that really doesn't work is the old Starfleet standby - Fisticuffs. Punching out a Klingon has generally proven ineffective unless your an android, a borg, or another Klingon or otherwise have enhanced strength. You might be able to trip them if you're canny... but ti's probably not the most brilliant of things to try. That, and generally, if you're that close they've probably decided to get you with a bat'leth or mek'leth... generally going unarmed against a melee weapon isn't usually a good idea.
----
TLDR version:
What kind of melee weapons do you suppose the Federation would adopt, assuming my predictions about personal shields are accurate?
----
*I'd rather prefer not to get into "This isn't a fantasy game!" arguments if possible. It's not, of course. Melee weapons have been a part of Star Trek from the get-go however; even if they're usually pointed AT the Federation. Combined with the advantages of personal shielding, its no longer a question of archaic or fantasy concerns, but military practicality. That and more than anything, it's a chance to maybe switch the topic for a little while, which would be nice.
**If possible, let's not argue over the 'best' Earth melee weapon - they all wind up with the same result (a mess) in the end. Especially since you'd have to imagine anything made in the 25th century would be something substantially stronger than mere steel.
Namely: It's almost certain that Klingons will have melee weaponry - I can't imagine a Klingon *not* having access at least to Bat'leths, and probably a few other nasty pointy bits besides. That said... what would the Federation use in close combat?*
I realize this sounds a bit odd - my own first reaction was something like "... they don't get INTO close combat if they can help it..."
But thinking about it more I kinda realized that that's not really an option in the present timeline; let me explain my thinking here... (This will take a minute, sorry - if I don't explain all this now however the thread will devolve into "melee combat is always useless in the future" - which, given the STO timeline and tech, may not actually be the case)
----
Firearms (including phasers and disruptors) would normally make melee a moot point in all but rather exceptional circumstances: after all - it's not difficult to shoot someone if they have to charge a few dozen meters or more to get to you. It's why you don't see modern armed forces making heavy use of bayonets, let alone swords or axes; as it's just not feasible to close that distance while under fire.
2409 changes that - In 2409 we have personal shields which will stop ranged attacks; but from what I've read, NOT stop melee attacks. This is actually a huge development; even the best modern body armor can't guarantee that it'll stop bullets - not even the first time it's hit. Moreover, if you're shot while in body armor there's a fair chance you'll fall over from the impact. Needless to say - shooting someone in armor is still far, far better than getting close to them while they're shooting at you.
Shields eliminate both of those problems; the weapon may short out the shield, but unless it's particularly advanced or unusual, it *will* keep you alive. Likewise, you probably won't be knocked over if your shield stops a hit, as the attack is never going to actually connect with you (the energy being dissipated against the shield). Further, shields can recharge - so if you have to cover several meters of open ground, and then take cover; you've a far, far better chance of surviving than you would in a real world setting.
And then there's weight - modern body armor isn't exactly light; especially with rifle plates and the like. Shields? Given the screen shots we've seen, the unit can't be particularly heavy. It's not even big enough to show up on the character as far as I can tell. This means you can run faster and longer. (Sure you aren't outrunning phaser beams - but it means there's even less time you're exposed, meaning the shooter has to somehow get your shields down while you're moving at a good sprint un-encumbered by heavy armor.)
Now, on top of making ranged weapons substantially less effective, shields failing to stop melee attacks means that if you can actually get close enough to an opponent with a melee weapon, you'll have the advantage. Without shields of course that doesn't work - you can still kill someone quite easily with a ranged weapon right up close in the real world... but with shields, the one or two shots they get off may not be enough.
Obviously this still leaves us with the question of "Why would I want to run all that way?" - Well usually you wouldn't - even with shields, much of the time it'll just be more efficient to use cover and shoot it out with the enemy. It may be slow going at times, but it'll work.
In tight quarters though, such as boarding actions, caves, urban environments - a melee weapon begins to look like a very good choice. After all, if you encounter someone in a small room, and you're only two steps apart, your shield will likely absorb the one or two phaser shots they can get off - and then you finish the opponent with your melee weapon of choice.
Now for Klingons, this is a non-issue - they carry and use them even if it is crazy dangerous because its' part of their culture and pride. Needless to say, in 2409, Klingons have something of an edge in close quarters fighting just based on a familiarity with close combat weapons, greater strength and resilience compared to most species, and their overall mentality.
The Federation isn't stupid though - and this is where we come to the point of the thread really:
In an environment like this where melee combat is suddenly quite feasible - what kind of weapons would Starfleet issue?
There's several possibilities I can think of:
Fold-out versions of ancient Earth weapons*: (Ex: A fold out longsword, cutlass, or katana like Sulu had in the JJ Abrams movie) - The technology is certainly there, and the Federation isn't going to have a whole lot of tradition behind these weapons - so incorporating technological components and such isn't going to be a big deal to them most likely.
Alien weapons: There's a variety of them out there surely - admittedly most of the ones I know of off the top of my head probably aren't going to work for this purpose (at least that I can think of) - but they exist, so it's not far-fetched to imagine the Federation picking a non-human design if it fulfills the role required.
Something completely new: Perhaps there's a mathematically ideal shape for a close-quarters weapon that's both easy to wield and gives maximum stopping power. I wouldn't find it unusual for Starfleet to come up with something that doesn't really look like anything we've known on Earth.
Something old: One very simple possibility is to slightly modify the Type-3 Phaser design to accept a simple bayonet. While not flashy, it does let you keep a blade handy while not relinquishing your main weapon. It also doesn't run the risk of failing due to a malfunction like a fold-out weapon could.
A tertiary advantage is that a bayonet is a largely defensive weapon - which generally suits the Federation better than being the ones doing the charging. That said it's also a small blade, which against a Klingon might not be worth much, and the design of the Type 3 Phaser would look really *odd* with a bayonet.
The one option that really doesn't work is the old Starfleet standby - Fisticuffs. Punching out a Klingon has generally proven ineffective unless your an android, a borg, or another Klingon or otherwise have enhanced strength. You might be able to trip them if you're canny... but ti's probably not the most brilliant of things to try. That, and generally, if you're that close they've probably decided to get you with a bat'leth or mek'leth... generally going unarmed against a melee weapon isn't usually a good idea.
----
TLDR version:
What kind of melee weapons do you suppose the Federation would adopt, assuming my predictions about personal shields are accurate?
----
*I'd rather prefer not to get into "This isn't a fantasy game!" arguments if possible. It's not, of course. Melee weapons have been a part of Star Trek from the get-go however; even if they're usually pointed AT the Federation. Combined with the advantages of personal shielding, its no longer a question of archaic or fantasy concerns, but military practicality. That and more than anything, it's a chance to maybe switch the topic for a little while, which would be nice.
**If possible, let's not argue over the 'best' Earth melee weapon - they all wind up with the same result (a mess) in the end. Especially since you'd have to imagine anything made in the 25th century would be something substantially stronger than mere steel.