To those that bought a CO 6 Month, or Life Membership.....

[sylvermane64]

An easy statement to make when your completely unaffected by whats happening at the moment.

I am affected by what is happening. I have a CO 6 month membership. And yes, part of my reasoning for purchasing the 6 month sub was for the Closed Beta entrance. Enjoying the game btw. I was a long time player of CoH, and I believe Cryptic is a great company and puts out some great games.

But your not going to see me whining and crying over the fact that I didn't get in on the VERY FIRST DAY. Jesus, watching the crying threads crop up like wild fires makes me embarrassed to be a gamer. I didn't delude myself into believing that I would be in Closed Beta the first day, week, or month. I'll get in, when I get the invite...its that simple.

I've been playing/Beta Testing MMOs long enough to know that the Devs pick their personal favorite forum members, personal friends, etc.. into MMOs. To date myself, anyone remember Dragonrealms? And it IS because on the first week, or so, of Beta they want 'dedicated' testers. Now before you QQ'ers start saying "How do you KNOW I'm not dedicated?!?!" It's not about what 'I' know, its about what the Dev's know. They don't know you folks from Adam, and the first week or so of Beta is 'VERY' critical.
So they are going to put their 'known' testers in place first.

They don't want testers starting on day one that just want to play the game and have the bragging rights to say "FIRST!" Which as we all know there will be literally thousands of people after the game starts that will claim that they were in the first week of Beta on the forums.

The facts are that the first day of Beta, or week or so, the game will be buggy. Even with the few hundred that were let in on the first day may crash the servers. Yes, its happened to many a games on the first week of Beta. If that happened, the Doomsayers would be on forums claiming "This game SUCKS!" within minutes....NDA be damned.

You folks that bought CO with the 'assumtion' that you would be FIRST....get a friggin' grip. It said NOWHERE that you would be in FIRST....NO WHERE did it say that. It didn't even say anywhere that Non CO Lifers or 6 Monthers, would NOT be invited BEFORE Lifers or 6 Monthers. It just said we would be granted access to Beta.....PERIOD!

Now, with that said, if I don't get an invite prior to public release...THEN you might see me on the forum complaining. But I have the patience (read maturity) to wait.

I ask my fellow CO Lifers/6 Monthers to show some restraint and most importantly maturity, and give Cryptic some time to get through this first month of Beta. There are reasons for everything. Some are not overtly seeable, but they are there for a reason, whether you understand them or not.

[duckforceone]

but nowhere did it state that you might not get into closed beta until much later in the cycle...

all it said is, you get access to closed beta... well closed beta is publicly stated to be running, and i do not have access to it... ergo the sales argument is flawed and i don't have what i paid for...

now i'm one of those who are wiling to wait a week or a bit more, but i paid for it, so i want it sooner not later... :D
i do understand the reason for not having all in at once... but if they can't live up to them selling the closed beta access, they should never have included it...

[Gruug]

I am affected by what is happening. I have a CO 6 month membership. And yes, part of my reasoning for purchasing the 6 month sub was for the Closed Beta entrance. Enjoying the game btw. I was a long time player of CoH, and I believe Cryptic is a great company and puts out some great games.

But your not going to see me whining and crying over the fact that I didn't get in on the VERY FIRST DAY. Jesus, watching the crying threads crop up like wild fires makes me embarrassed to be a gamer. I didn't delude myself into believing that I would be in Closed Beta the first day, week, or month. I'll get in, when I get the invite...its that simple.

I've been playing/Beta Testing MMOs long enough to know that the Devs pick their personal favorite forum members, personal friends, etc.. into MMOs. To date myself, anyone remember Dragonrealms? And it IS because on the first week, or so, of Beta they want 'dedicated' testers. Now before you QQ'ers start saying "How do you KNOW I'm not dedicated?!?!" It's not about what 'I' know, its about what the Dev's know. They don't know you folks from Adam, and the first week or so of Beta is 'VERY' critical.
So they are going to put their 'known' testers in place first.

They don't want testers starting on day one that just want to play the game and have the bragging rights to say "FIRST!" Which as we all know there will be literally thousands of people after the game starts that will claim that they were in the first week of Beta on the forums.

The facts are that the first day of Beta, or week or so, the game will be buggy. Even with the few hundred that were let in on the first day may crash the servers. Yes, its happened to many a games on the first week of Beta. If that happened, the Doomsayers would be on forums claiming "This game SUCKS!" within minutes....NDA be damned.

You folks that bought CO with the 'assumtion' that you would be FIRST....get a friggin' grip. It said NOWHERE that you would be in FIRST....NO WHERE did it say that. It didn't even say anywhere that Non CO Lifers or 6 Monthers, would NOT be invited BEFORE Lifers or 6 Monthers. It just said we would be granted access to Beta.....PERIOD!

Now, with that said, if I don't get an invite prior to public release...THEN you might see me on the forum complaining. But I have the patience (read maturity) to wait.

I ask my fellow CO Lifers/6 Monthers to show some restraint and most importantly maturity, and give Cryptic some time to get through this first month of Beta. There are reasons for everything. Some are not overtly seeable, but they are there for a reason, whether you understand them or not.

Again, you made the mistake of using logic to point out what makes sense. I totally agree. Those posting that "Cryptic said 6ers and Lifers would be first" are not thinking or are not capable of thinking in the terms you have posted. Too bad as I am sure the flamming will continue until THEY are blue in the face.

[Dext]

but nowhere did it state that you might not get into closed beta until much later in the cycle...

all it said is, you get access to closed beta... well closed beta is publicly stated to be running, and i do not have access to it... ergo the sales argument is flawed and i don't have what i paid for...

now i'm one of those who are wiling to wait a week or a bit more, but i paid for it, so i want it sooner not later... :D
i do understand the reason for not having all in at once... but if they can't live up to them selling the closed beta access, they should never have included it...

What you payed for was a CO sub the beta was just a free add on. An if you only got it for the beta then you should have not payed for it.

[runrhino06]

I am affected by what is happening. I have a CO 6 month membership. And yes, part of my reasoning for purchasing the 6 month sub was for the Closed Beta entrance. Enjoying the game btw. I was a long time player of CoH, and I believe Cryptic is a great company and puts out some great games.

But your not going to see me whining and crying over the fact that I didn't get in on the VERY FIRST DAY. Jesus, watching the crying threads crop up like wild fires makes me embarrassed to be a gamer. I didn't delude myself into believing that I would be in Closed Beta the first day, week, or month. I'll get in, when I get the invite...its that simple.

I've been playing/Beta Testing MMOs long enough to know that the Devs pick their personal favorite forum members, personal friends, etc.. into MMOs. To date myself, anyone remember Dragonrealms? And it IS because on the first week, or so, of Beta they want 'dedicated' testers. Now before you QQ'ers start saying "How do you KNOW I'm not dedicated?!?!" It's not about what 'I' know, its about what the Dev's know. They don't know you folks from Adam, and the first week or so of Beta is 'VERY' critical.
So they are going to put their 'known' testers in place first.

They don't want testers starting on day one that just want to play the game and have the bragging rights to say "FIRST!" Which as we all know there will be literally thousands of people after the game starts that will claim that they were in the first week of Beta on the forums.

The facts are that the first day of Beta, or week or so, the game will be buggy. Even with the few hundred that were let in on the first day may crash the servers. Yes, its happened to many a games on the first week of Beta. If that happened, the Doomsayers would be on forums claiming "This game SUCKS!" within minutes....NDA be damned.

You folks that bought CO with the 'assumtion' that you would be FIRST....get a friggin' grip. It said NOWHERE that you would be in FIRST....NO WHERE did it say that. It didn't even say anywhere that Non CO Lifers or 6 Monthers, would NOT be invited BEFORE Lifers or 6 Monthers. It just said we would be granted access to Beta.....PERIOD!

Now, with that said, if I don't get an invite prior to public release...THEN you might see me on the forum complaining. But I have the patience (read maturity) to wait.

I ask my fellow CO Lifers/6 Monthers to show some restraint and most importantly maturity, and give Cryptic some time to get through this first month of Beta. There are reasons for everything. Some are not overtly seeable, but they are there for a reason, whether you understand them or not.

Although I wouldn't have put that as bluntly over the forums, I do agree. I'm excited to the point in time that I do enter the game. I've been waiting several years as many others have but a little longer of a wait isn't going to hurt anyone for a logical reason.

I do admit, I wasn't for sure on how the initial beta invites would take place and it made sense that Cryptic would first accept their friends/family and favorite posters. That give them an exclusive insight on the game and it's mechanics from attached people.

The fact that 6 mon/LT CO subscribers didn't get in on the VERY first round isn't the end of the world. I don't foresee them getting in at the last minute either but it will happen just as Cryptic stated.

I will say this, though, whining will not get you anywhere. It will possibly delay the process if anything and be a pain in the butt to those that are calmly waiting.

[duckforceone]

What you payed for was a CO sub the beta was just a free add on. An if you only got it for the beta then you should have not payed for it.

so you are saying that if you pay for a movie ticket, with a free drink included, that you do not get before the end of the movie, i should just suck it up and not have paid for it????

[LordDave]

Honestly? I'd rather have Cryptic's PR department take the heat from a thousand players then to have the Development team hindered in their Beta testing.

I say let the Devs do what they want with Beta and ignore anything and everything the PR department says. :)

[LordDave]

so you are saying that if you pay for a movie ticket, with a free drink included, that you do not get before the end of the movie, i should just suck it up and not have paid for it????

The movie just started. You've still got time. :P

[runrhino06]

so you are saying that if you pay for a movie ticket, with a free drink included, that you do not get before the end of the movie, i should just suck it up and not have paid for it????

Well I don't know how Dext meant that but the answer I would give is no. It's apparent as many CO sub's expected to be invited the VERY first round of Closed Beta and weren't. I had similar thoughts but after everything was explained and assured of the invite then it became plausible to simply be patient and understanding.

Let's say that you don't get in until a month before the end of Closed Beta, which I truly believe won't happen for several reason and I'll get into that in a moment. But in theory, say that you don't until that time. You have gained access to a game that a lot of people have been waiting on for years, myself included. For a month's time, you would have an opportunity to make that game better by testing it and exploring the mechanics.

Not everything can be done by a "fast food" technique. There is a reasonable and a true form of reality in stability for these servers and you simply just can't invite thousands of people at one time. It's likely there would be more lag and instability that could cause a very HUGE PR problem. You would have everyone saying.. Screw the NDA, the servers are laggy, I can't play...this game is going to be a pain to play. The company doesn't want that. They want feedback and help establishing any bugs that might be found.

The main reasons I believe that CO sub's will not have to worry about coming in at the last moment is the fact that they have already invited some of those subscribers in on the first round. To paraphrase StormShade, you may not get in first round or second round but don't worry...the invites are coming. It's true, we don't know EXACTLY how long each round will take since the timing of the target CCU will be unpredictable due any possible instability within the server. This goes back to my last paragraph. You can't take on too much or it will turn into disaster.

Anyways, that's my two cents on the matter.

[jacksparrowjive55]

But your not going to see me whining and crying over the fact that I didn't get in on the VERY FIRST DAY. Jesus, watching the crying threads crop up like wild fires makes me embarrassed to be a gamer. I didn't delude myself into believing that I would be in Closed Beta the first day, week, or month. I'll get in, when I get the invite...its that simple.

oh i see. instead of seeing you crying about not getting into beta, we get to see you crying about OTHER people crying about not getting into beta. great way to may your point!

[Siphaed]

Again, you made the mistake of using logic to point out what makes sense. I totally agree. Those posting that "Cryptic said 6ers and Lifers would be first" are not thinking or are not capable of thinking in the terms you have posted. Too bad as I am sure the flamming will continue until THEY are blue in the face.

Not to sound off here or anything, but shouldn't Star Trek fans be the ones of all others to understand the use of and need for Logic? I mean, that the whole basis of the Volcans society and their process has been used for a multitude of solutions in the galaxy.

[minago]

there's no crying in mmo's ,"just people that use a term whiners way to much"

[sandman105]

I find it really disheartning that people keep doubting what the devs have said over.. and over... and over... and over.... and over.....again....

If you have purchased the required subscription to co... you will get into beta.

[MattTreck]

but nowhere did it state that you might not get into closed beta until much later in the cycle...

all it said is, you get access to closed beta... well closed beta is publicly stated to be running, and i do not have access to it... ergo the sales argument is flawed and i don't have what i paid for...

now i'm one of those who are wiling to wait a week or a bit more, but i paid for it, so i want it sooner not later... :D
i do understand the reason for not having all in at once... but if they can't live up to them selling the closed beta access, they should never have included it...


It also did not state you would be in first.

and don't even post what Rekhan and Daeke said because they later said they spoke to soon.

[jamestpicard55]

I find it really disheartning that people keep doubting what the devs have said over.. and over... and over... and over.... and over.....again....

kind of hard not to when they "change their mind" after stating that the people who bought the CO deals would be first in.

[minago]

I find it really disheartning that people keep doubting what the devs have said over.. and over... and over... and over.... and over.....again....

If you have purchased the required subscription to co... you will get into beta.

well after you get mislead you know that whole trust thing....also i like the fact people have to go back and pick apart little thing to try and justify what the devs say are correct .

it's like bill clinton was on the dev team.

did you have sexual relations with said person

"let's discuss the definition of have"

[slingbladez]

kind of hard not to when they "change their mind" after stating that the people who bought the CO deals would be first in.

Pease stop telling people that the Star Trek Online Devs said that CO subs would get in first. The Champions Online PR person posted in the Champions Online forum about a Star Trek Online decision that wasn't even made yet. The Star Trek Online PR person clarified this 3 days later by saying the Champions Online PR person spoke too soon and the STO people haven't figured out exactly when the CO subscribers will get in. The STO people never said CO people would get in first. Beside the CO person said it after the CO life offer was gone so those who bought it didn't see the quote that they were going to get in first when they forked over the money.

And in regard to the PR complaints, Daeke's statement wasn't entirely accurate. He spoke a bit too soon, is all :). Like I said previously, we don't have a plan yet, which is why we haven't said anything officially. Once I have an actual schedule sitting in front of me, I'll let you guys know how we plan on making the invites happen. Bear in mind, though, we will likely be giving lifetime and six-month account holders access ahead of standard applicants.

Here is the most recent quote about Daeke's unfortunate statement.

First, I need to tell you that the information Daeke posted back in September that has been quoted was incorrect. The people who purchased lifetime and 6 months subscriptions for Champions Online are very important to us. However, as much as we want to, we cannot accommodate all users who wish to play the STO closed beta on day-one. The server simply cannot handle that kind of load this early into testing. Please understand that this is very much a closed beta test.

[jamestpicard55]

Unfortunately the Champions Online PR person posted in the Champions Online forum about a Star Trek Online decision that wasn't even made yet. The Star Trek Online PR person clarified this 3 days later by saying the Champions Online PR person spoke too soon and the STO people haven't figured out exactly when the CO subscribers will get in. The STO people never said CO people would get in first. Beside the CO person said it after the CO life offer was gone so those who bought it didn't see the quote that they were going to get in first when they forked over the money.

Even if it wasnt "officialy decided" yet, other STO devs stated that that was probably how it would happen. So either way their apparently "changed their mind". Plus, companies who care about their image tend to honor promises that were made even if they may have been made slightly in error. Kind of like how Cryptic reopened the deal to the CO sub/beta since they originaly closed it before they said they would. That was a good move, showing that they cared about keeping their word. This is not.

[printcraftsman]

I am affected by what is happening. I have a CO 6 month membership. And yes, part of my reasoning for purchasing the 6 month sub was for the Closed Beta entrance. Enjoying the game btw. I was a long time player of CoH, and I believe Cryptic is a great company and puts out some great games.

In many places it was reported by cryptic employees we would be first...It does my heart good to see hundreds of people who read the forums, advertising, etc and came to the same conclusion as I did....why would I pay $200 to be middle or last...I can wait my turn but

CRYPTIC NEEDS TO COME OUT OF THE SHADOWS AND EXPLAIN / CLARIFY FOR EVERYONE HOW THIS IS GOING TO WORK ....
It seems cryptic is being taken over by the FERENGIES!!! Argh!!!!!!!!

[slingbladez]

Even if it wasnt "officialy decided" yet, other STO devs stated that that was probably how it would happen. So either way their apparently "changed their mind". Plus, companies who care about their image tend to honor promises that were made even if they may have been made slightly in error. Kind of like how Cryptic reopened the deal to the CO sub/beta since they originaly closed it before they said they would. That was a good move, showing that they cared about keeping their word. This is not.

Rekhan didn't say it was probable they would get in first he said "likely be giving lifetime and six-month account holders access ahead of standard applicants.". He didn't say that CO subs would get in before friends and family and others who typically get in at the start of Closed Betas. Standard applicants are when they randomly pick people based on their system specs and other things. Right now "invites are currently being sent to our CO lifetime and six-month promotional subscribers" and "Cryptic / Atari friends and family, contest winners" and only a few regular signups.

So if you look at that quote they are only letting in few standard applicants which stands true to Rekhans statement on Sept 13th that "likely be giving lifetime and six-month account holders access ahead of standard applicants." They need that little portion of random applicants to "ensure we get testing across the board"


Of course, invites are currently being sent to our CO lifetime and six-month promotional subscribers, they will continue to be sent to them until they are all in the beta test. We will also continue inviting remaining Cryptic / Atari friends and family, contest winners, and a few regular signups to ensure we get testing across the board.

[printcraftsman]

so you are saying that if you pay for a movie ticket, with a free drink included, that you do not get before the end of the movie, i should just suck it up and not have paid for it????

Or buy a car with a bonus of leather seats and get lether seats the day you send it to the junkyard

I paid the $200 and many $200 and $60 people on these forums have mostly all said that they all thought they would get first crack....

I'm getting flashbacks to Hellgate London $200 liftime sub.....Can anyone say Bill Roper Scam....

[bobalobabingbong]

In many places it was reported by cryptic employees we would be first...It does my heart good to see hundreds of people who read the forums, advertising, etc and came to the same conclusion as I did....why would I pay $200 to be middle or last...I can wait my turn but

CRYPTIC NEEDS TO COME OUT OF THE SHADOWS AND EXPLAIN / CLARIFY FOR EVERYONE HOW THIS IS GOING TO WORK ....
It seems cryptic is being taken over by the FERENGIES!!! Argh!!!!!!!!


Check the stickies. They did come out and explain. :)

[sylvermane64]

In many places it was reported by cryptic employees we would be first...It does my heart good to see hundreds of people who read the forums, advertising, etc and came to the same conclusion as I did....why would I pay $200 to be middle or last...I can wait my turn but

CRYPTIC NEEDS TO COME OUT OF THE SHADOWS AND EXPLAIN / CLARIFY FOR EVERYONE HOW THIS IS GOING TO WORK ....
It seems cryptic is being taken over by the FERENGIES!!! Argh!!!!!!!!


Once again....where is your post that states that CO subs would be "first"? I have yet to see anyone cut and paste the link to where this was stated.

Even the mistaken CO PR person didn't say the CO subs would be 'first'. Jesus people, its only been 2 days.

[printcraftsman]

Check the stickies. They did come out and explain. :)


Not really it is very non commital .....why would they want to commit the same faux pah again so they are deliberatily dodging the hard questions....:mad::mad::mad:

[sylvermane64]

Or buy a car with a bonus of leather seats and get lether seats the day you send it to the junkyard

I paid the $200 and many $200 and $60 people on these forums have mostly all said that they all thought they would get first crack....

I'm getting flashbacks to Hellgate London $200 liftime sub.....Can anyone say Bill Roper Scam....

They 'thought', which means they 'assumed'. If it wasn't in black and white, then we all know what assuming means.

[printcraftsman]

Once again....where is your post that states that CO subs would be "first"? I have yet to see anyone cut and paste the link to where this was stated.

Even the mistaken CO PR person didn't say the CO subs would be 'first'. Jesus people, its only been 2 days.


How about this....You actually go thru the forums and READ every page like I have that deals with this and you will see Many, many, many post links...But no you would rather be half informed....Do you work for Cryptic or something. Get informed!!!!

[printcraftsman]

They 'thought', which means they 'assumed'. If it wasn't in black and white, then we all know what assuming means.

Cryptic's Marketing Fanned Those Flames To Get The Money and what is the first rule of acquisiton. Once you have the money never give it back...ie ....change the terms of the DEAL.

[sylvermane64]

How about this....You actually go thru the forums and READ every page like I have that deals with this and you will see Many, many, many post links...But no you would rather be half informed....Do you work for Cryptic or something. Get informed!!!!

No, YOU are the one making the accusations, YOU post the 'official' from Cryptic that states that you would be first. I've read the other posts, and not ONE of them have a direct quote from an official Cryptic spokesperson stating that you would be first to get in.

Assumtions are the fault of the accusers, not the other way around.

[Woden]

Cryptic did give the impression that if people invested in the lifetime or 6month CO plan they would be in the star trek beta when it began. Now they are just being deceitful putting the people who put their money towards them in when the beta is about over. I think cryptic just muddied thier water because people dont forget and this will come up anytime they go to release a game

[Aethilgar]

I am affected by what is happening. I have a CO 6 month membership. And yes, part of my reasoning for purchasing the 6 month sub was for the Closed Beta entrance. Enjoying the game btw. I was a long time player of CoH, and I believe Cryptic is a great company and puts out some great games.

But your not going to see me whining and crying over the fact that I didn't get in on the VERY FIRST DAY. Jesus, watching the crying threads crop up like wild fires makes me embarrassed to be a gamer. I didn't delude myself into believing that I would be in Closed Beta the first day, week, or month. I'll get in, when I get the invite...its that simple.

I've been playing/Beta Testing MMOs long enough to know that the Devs pick their personal favorite forum members, personal friends, etc.. into MMOs. To date myself, anyone remember Dragonrealms? And it IS because on the first week, or so, of Beta they want 'dedicated' testers. Now before you QQ'ers start saying "How do you KNOW I'm not dedicated?!?!" It's not about what 'I' know, its about what the Dev's know. They don't know you folks from Adam, and the first week or so of Beta is 'VERY' critical.
So they are going to put their 'known' testers in place first.

They don't want testers starting on day one that just want to play the game and have the bragging rights to say "FIRST!" Which as we all know there will be literally thousands of people after the game starts that will claim that they were in the first week of Beta on the forums.

The facts are that the first day of Beta, or week or so, the game will be buggy. Even with the few hundred that were let in on the first day may crash the servers. Yes, its happened to many a games on the first week of Beta. If that happened, the Doomsayers would be on forums claiming "This game SUCKS!" within minutes....NDA be damned.

You folks that bought CO with the 'assumtion' that you would be FIRST....get a friggin' grip. It said NOWHERE that you would be in FIRST....NO WHERE did it say that. It didn't even say anywhere that Non CO Lifers or 6 Monthers, would NOT be invited BEFORE Lifers or 6 Monthers. It just said we would be granted access to Beta.....PERIOD!

Now, with that said, if I don't get an invite prior to public release...THEN you might see me on the forum complaining. But I have the patience (read maturity) to wait.

I ask my fellow CO Lifers/6 Monthers to show some restraint and most importantly maturity, and give Cryptic some time to get through this first month of Beta. There are reasons for everything. Some are not overtly seeable, but they are there for a reason, whether you understand them or not.

Another thread on the same topic? Do we really need to spam the forums with this?

[sylvermane64]

Cryptic did give the impression that if people invested in the lifetime or 6month CO plan they would be in the star trek beta when it began. Now they are just being deceitful putting the people who put their money towards them in when the beta is about over. I think cryptic just muddied thier water because people dont forget and this will come up anytime they go to release a game

Yes, they did indeed state that we would be in the Closed Beta. Is the Closed Beta over yet? Like I said, we're only 2 whole days into Beta and people are ready to lynch Cryptic...its frickin' amazing.

[jacksparrowjive55]

Another thread on the same topic? Do we really need to spam the forums with this?

then why bother replying?

[duckforceone]

Once again....where is your post that states that CO subs would be "first"? I have yet to see anyone cut and paste the link to where this was stated.

Even the mistaken CO PR person didn't say the CO subs would be 'first'. Jesus people, its only been 2 days.

well let me ask this instead.

where is the proof, that on the sales page, it said that the lifetime / 6 month offer, included possible beta access to sto closed beta, at a later specified time?

it wasn't...

it specified, you buy
access to sto closed beta

closed beta is now ongoing

you have paid for access, but aren't allowed in.

there was never a time specified, only access... so i have bought access but haven't gotten it. now that's the bare sales facts, and the only way it can be interpreted in business law.

[sandman105]

then why bother replying?

Well.. that's what the forums are for, is to talk about stuff. People have an insatiable need to share their opinion on things, just as you did to the post you quoted, and just as I am doing with your post.

[slingbladez]

well let me ask this instead.

where is the proof, that on the sales page, it said that the lifetime / 6 month offer, included possible beta access to sto closed beta, at a later specified time?

it wasn't...

it specified, you buy
access to sto closed beta

closed beta is now ongoing

you have paid for access, but aren't allowed in.

there was never a time specified, only access... so i have bought access but haven't gotten it. now that's the bare sales facts, and the only way it can be interpreted in business law.

You thought process is quite frankly rather perplexing. They said you have "access to closed beta" Beta was to start "later this year". Closed Beta "started" last week and lasts until 1-2 weeks until the retail starts. So if they give you "access to closed beta" anytime between now and then it will count as "closed beta access" this is the reason i didn't buy the deal because they never specified a time so it could be any time between now and then.

They have however clarified it recently that CO subs will get in before the vast majority of random applicants so it's likely they will get in within a couple months and have 3-5 months to test the game.

[jacksparrowjive55]

Well.. that's what the forums are for, is to talk about stuff. People have an insatiable need to share their opinion on things, just as you did to the post you quoted, and just as I am doing with your post.

hey, no arguments here. what im saying is, if you dont think this thread should exist(which the person who I was replying to thought), then why reply to it.

[sylvermane64]

well let me ask this instead.

where is the proof, that on the sales page, it said that the lifetime / 6 month offer, included possible beta access to sto closed beta, at a later specified time?

It didn't say that, it said you get access to Closed Beta. Is Closed Beta over yet?



it specified, you buy
access to sto closed beta

closed beta is now ongoing

you have paid for access, but aren't allowed in.

Is Closed Beta over yet?

there was never a time specified, only access... so i have bought access but haven't gotten it. now that's the bare sales facts, and the only way it can be interpreted in business law.

Hit the nail on the head there....nice job. Oh, you bought access, but haven't gotten it. Is Closed Beta over yet?

[Loekii]

well let me ask this instead.

where is the proof, that on the sales page, it said that the lifetime / 6 month offer, included possible beta access to sto closed beta, at a later specified time?

it wasn't...

it specified, you buy
access to sto closed beta

closed beta is now ongoing

you have paid for access, but aren't allowed in.

there was never a time specified, only access... so i have bought access but haven't gotten it. now that's the bare sales facts, and the only way it can be interpreted in business law.

Actually, as someone that has gone to court for a company, Business Law would interprite exactly as other have stated.

Access to Closed Beta.


It is only access. By law, 1 hour of CB access, full fills the obligation of the offer.

They are not obligated to make your first in, provide unrestricted access, provide specific content, or allow you to participate for any length of time. So literally, they could invite you for the last hour of CB, and have legally full filled their legal obligation.

It is really that simple. The law does not protect you from your assumption.

[sylvermane64]

Actually, as someone that has gone to court for a company, Business Law would interprite exactly as other have stated.
Access to Closed Beta.

By law, 1 hour of CB access, full fills the obligation of the offer.

It is really that simple. The law does not protect you from your assumption.



Well said, and absolutely correct. Especially the last part. :)

[duckforceone]

You thought process is quite frankly rather perplexing. They said you have "access to closed beta" Beta was to start "later this year". Closed Beta lasts until 1-2 weeks until the retail starts. So if they give you "access to closed beta" anytime between now and then it will count as "closed beta access" this is the reason i didn't buy the deal because they never specified a time so it could be any time between now and then. They have however clarified it recently that CO subs will get in before the vast majority of random applicants so it's likely they will get in within a couple months and have 3-5 months to test the game.

you are specifying how a normal beta works...

this is not a normal beta, this is a business beta, and therefore business rules apply...

beta is up
you paid for access
you don't have access, so you don't have what you paid for
so you are allowed to ask for a refund... :D

in business, you cannot sell something to be supplied, and then later put on dates and limited access.
it's like paying for a support company to supply you with support. you pay every month, and then you need to use the service you bought, but since you never stated when the supportdeal should start, well then you will have to wait until the support company thinks they are ready to support you.

so since they never stated any limits, you have to apply that there are no limits on the deal.
now they are applying limits, that didn't exist when you bought the deal. so from a business point, you are allowed to ask for a refund or rebate...

[duckforceone]

Actually, as someone that has gone to court for a company, Business Law would interprite exactly as other have stated.

Access to Closed Beta.


It is only access. By law, 1 hour of CB access, full fills the obligation of the offer.

They are not obligated to make your first in, provide unrestricted access, provide specific content, or allow you to participate for any length of time. So literally, they could invite you for the last hour of CB, and have legally full filled their legal obligation.

It is really that simple. The law does not protect you from your assumption.



so i can sell you, your dreamhouse, and then just 1 hour before you get so old that you are put in a foster home, i deliver your house to you, and having lived in the house until then.
you signed the deal, you forked over the money, and you did get the house after 60 years...

nope sorry.. that just isn't the way it works... :D

[bobalobabingbong]

Not really it is very non commital .....why would they want to commit the same faux pah again so they are deliberatily dodging the hard questions....:mad::mad::mad:
Then what happens when they say "Everyone will be in beta by this date." Then they can't do it due to server issues, and the like? They have to be non-commital because of the unknowns at the moment.

well let me ask this instead.

where is the proof, that on the sales page, it said that the lifetime / 6 month offer, included possible beta access to sto closed beta, at a later specified time?

it wasn't...

it specified, you buy
access to sto closed beta

closed beta is now ongoing

you have paid for access, but aren't allowed in.

there was never a time specified, only access... so i have bought access but haven't gotten it. now that's the bare sales facts, and the only way it can be interpreted in business law.

You answered your own question. It's your own fault that you assumed it would be day 1. I never assumed that. I know I will get in in due time :)

[bobalobabingbong]

so i can sell you, your dreamhouse, and then just 1 hour before you get so old that you are put in a foster home, i deliver your house to you, and having lived in the house until then.
you signed the deal, you forked over the money, and you did get the house after 60 years...

nope sorry.. that just isn't the way it works... :D

Check a mortgage contract. It specified a date of sale.

Your anologies do not apply here.

[Kirby]

It's amazing to me how many people try to use analogies to complain, yet don't even know how to compare them properly. :rolleyes:
but nowhere did it state that you might not get into closed beta until much later in the cycle...

all it said is, you get access to closed beta... well closed beta is publicly stated to be running, and i do not have access to it... ergo the sales argument is flawed and i don't have what i paid for...

now i'm one of those who are wiling to wait a week or a bit more, but i paid for it, so i want it sooner not later... :D
i do understand the reason for not having all in at once... but if they can't live up to them selling the closed beta access, they should never have included it...Did you even think about what you stated? "...that you might not..." Do you even know what "might" means? Expand your close-minded thinking for a moment. Closed Beta is going to take place over MONTHS. Get it? Months, not days, not hours. Is Closed Beta over? NO. So if you get in next week or in two weeks or four weeks, you still "get access to Closed Beta." Got it? It's really not that difficult to use your brain for thought processing. You even answered your own question. Your rhetorical, nonsensical statement at the end is learned victim.

so you are saying that if you pay for a movie ticket, with a free drink included, that you do not get before the end of the movie, i should just suck it up and not have paid for it????No, what they're saying is you'll essentially get to see the movie on opening day. A small group gets to see it at 12:01 a.m. You might get to see it at 3 am or 4pm, but you'll still get to see it on opening day. Does that make it easier to understand?

kind of hard not to when they "change their mind" after stating that the people who bought the CO deals would be first in.Provide the link where -before September 1, 2009- they said CO buy-ins would be first. Provide the link where STO stated where all buy-ins would be in Closed Beta on the first day. Again, you can't because it doesn't exist. You were expecting Closed Beta access and that's what you'll receive. Is Closed Beta over? No, so you still have time to get in.

Even if it wasnt "officialy decided" yet, other STO devs stated that that was probably how it would happen..Your reasoning here is that an unofficial statement said "probably"? You do realize that "probably" does not mean "guaranteed," correct?

Or buy a car with a bonus of leather seats and get lether seats the day you send it to the junkyardThe "junkyard" would be when the game is over. Poor choice A proper analogy would be that they said they'll let you into the car factory to see you leather seats installed. Then you get in the factory and see the vehicle and complain "It's only got wheels and the framework. You promised me leather seats!" Guess what, they haven't gotten to the leather seats yet. But -duh duh dummm- the leather seats will be installed before the vehicle is released.

Nowhere on CO did it state "If you buy a six-month or lifetime subscription to Champions Online, you will get into Star Trek Online Closed Beta on day 1 of Closed Beta and no one else in the beta applications will be allowed in until all buy-ins and key winners have been satisfied."

[Kirby]

where is the proof, that on the sales page, it said that the lifetime / 6 month offer, included possible beta access to sto closed beta, at a ... specified time?

there was never a time specified, only access... Run, Forrest! Run!

[Ateros]

"so since they never stated any limits, you have to apply that there are no limits on the deal.
now they are applying limits, that didn't exist when you bought the deal. so from a business point, you are allowed to ask for a refund or rebate..."

What you have failed to mention about asking for a refund or rebate on merchandise not yet received you are effictivly giveing up all rights to said merchandise when it does come available. Closed beta has only been going on for a few days. Most people know the game is scheduled to be released early 2010. Untill that release date is officly released then consider all the time inbetween to be available for access to closed beta. With probly a few weeks thrown in of open beta. Maybe in december if you still dont havess the access you paid for or even Jan then that wold be the time to maybe start worrying abouit a refund.

Oh btw that means you may be required to return any merchandise you may have for a full refund. That means anything you go with your 6mo or lifetime sub to CO.

Personally I would be paticent and wait and not lose my access too soon by asking for a refund.

[printcraftsman]

Yes, they did indeed state that we would be in the Closed Beta. Is the Closed Beta over yet? Like I said, we're only 2 whole days into Beta and people are ready to lynch Cryptic...its frickin' amazing.

Stop trying to make it sound as if people who bought $200 and $60 subs are stupid. Hundreds upon hundreds on these forums where all taken in by Cryptics Marketing implying that we would get first crack.

You must be an undercover Cryptic employee

[printcraftsman]

well let me ask this instead.

where is the proof, that on the sales page, it said that the lifetime / 6 month offer, included possible beta access to sto closed beta, at a later specified time?

it wasn't...

it specified, you buy
access to sto closed beta

closed beta is now ongoing

you have paid for access, but aren't allowed in.

there was never a time specified, only access... so i have bought access but haven't gotten it. now that's the bare sales facts, and the only way it can be interpreted in business law.



The word on other "non cryptic forums" is that they sold to many lifer and 6fer subs to make Champions Online a hit and the math is getting the better of them.....

Does Cryptic now Equal FERENGIE

[bobalobabingbong]

Stop trying to make it sound as if people who bought $200 and $60 subs are stupid. Hundreds upon hundreds on these forums where all taken in by Cryptics Marketing implying that we would get first crack.

You must be an undercover Cryptic employee

I would imagine we still will. If you have any idea about beta testing, you would know that not everyone can get in first thing.

Besides, implying is not guarunteed.

If you don't know everything about the product you buy, well, then it's your own fault.

[printcraftsman]

so i can sell you, your dreamhouse, and then just 1 hour before you get so old that you are put in a foster home, i deliver your house to you, and having lived in the house until then.
you signed the deal, you forked over the money, and you did get the house after 60 years...

nope sorry.. that just isn't the way it works... :D

I agree with you......Cryptic and Atari Implied thru employees and discussions that $200 and $60 would get first crack

[sylvermane64]

Stop trying to make it sound as if people who bought $200 and $60 subs are stupid. Hundreds upon hundreds on these forums where all taken in by Cryptics Marketing implying that we would get first crack.

You must be an undercover Cryptic employee

I bought one of those subs, and I wasn't 'taken' in. I didn't see any 'implied' marketing tactic. I saw what was in black and white. I would have access to Closed Beta. Beta isn't over yet.

[printcraftsman]

Then what happens when they say "Everyone will be in beta by this date." Then they can't do it due to server issues, and the like? They have to be non-commital because of the unknowns at the moment.



You answered your own question. It's your own fault that you assumed it would be day 1. I never assumed that. I know I will get in in due time :)

This goes to the very heart and soul of Star Trek. Is Cryptic's -Atari Marketing sold way to many subs so the math is biting them in the keister. I did not pay $200 to be middle or last.....neither did the hundreds upon hunderds that have said the same thing. Do you think we are all morons orcould the marketing dept have done there job to well.

[Musterion]

God, I love this :D sweet, sweet tears

[sylvermane64]

I agree with you......Cryptic and Atari Implied thru employees and discussions that $200 and $60 would get first crack

You have absolutely NO proof to offer on this. You have not been able to supply even ONE official from Cryptic or Atari that clearly stated that CO Subs would get first crack. Your logic is of the "I Want it NOW" generation, and when you don't get your way, you make assumtions, and fabricate comments that help you get through the day, and try and point the fingers at people, when you have NO proof.

Pretty sad Gemini.....pretty damn sad.

[JackOfDiamond]

I think it's cute that you guys think that technical issues are driving the beta selection process. Of course some of that happens, but marketing is always part of beta invites. Guaranteed, that invites are going out to game press, industry, influential fansites, etc, hoping to create buzz. Nothing wrong with it, that's how the world goes round, but this elite trustworthy beta tester thing is a myth.

Yes, we even did that back in dragonrealms.

[sylvermane64]

This goes to the very heart and soul of Star Trek. Is Cryptic's -Atari Marketing sold way to many subs so the math is biting them in the keister. I did not pay $200 to be middle or last.....neither did the hundreds upon hunderds that have said the same thing. Do you think we are all morons orcould the marketing dept have done there job to well.

Hundreds, and Hundreds? Kinda bloating the numbers a bit there aren't you? I don't see those kinda numbers on these forums complaining. Maybe more like 20...maybe. Or are you using your Assumtion Logic here?

[printcraftsman]

Hundreds, and Hundreds? Kinda bloating the numbers a bit there aren't you? I don't see those kinda numbers on these forums complaining. Maybe more like 20...maybe. Or are you using your Assumtion Logic here?

Hundreds + Hundreds = 2 hundreds

[grimmace]

What you payed for was a CO sub the beta was just a free add on. An if you only got it for the beta then you should have not payed for it.

You know repeating it dosent make it any less false, people did pay for the CO subs AND the beta. We didn't buy CO subs then get a surprise message "oh btw lifer/6mo'ers have a better chance of getting into beta yay!" no it was specifically part of the deal everyone getting it bought into.

Should people of payed just to get into the beta and no play co? That is irrelevant because they already did it, with crytpics blessing to I might add. If your going to market a product make sure you can at least live up to the demand, bait and switch is just going to **** people off and possibly cause subscription losses in the long run.

[printcraftsman]

You have absolutely NO proof to offer on this. You have not been able to supply even ONE official from Cryptic or Atari that clearly stated that CO Subs would get first crack. Your logic is of the "I Want it NOW" generation, and when you don't get your way, you make assumtions, and fabricate comments that help you get through the day, and try and point the fingers at people, when you have NO proof.

Pretty sad Gemini.....pretty damn sad.

REad all of Closed Beta here we come forum thread and the closed beta answers forum thread and mmorpg forums and you will see at least 30 to 40 links (some duplicate)....I guess you want to be the King of your own thread and NOT READ ANY OTHERS AND BE IN SELF DENIAL....Give me a break...
Undercover Cryptic employee.

[printcraftsman]

You know repeating it dosent make it any less false, people did pay for the CO subs AND the beta. We didn't buy CO subs then get a surprise message "oh btw lifer/6mo'ers have a better chance of getting into beta yay!" no it was specifically part of the deal everyone getting it bought into.

Should people of payed just to get into the beta and no play co? That is irrelevant because they already did it, with crytpics blessing to I might add. If your going to market a product make sure you can at least live up to the demand, bait and switch is just going to **** people off and possibly cause subscription losses in the long run.

It wwas part of the contract.....I agree with you.....Preach on!!!!!!!!!

[grimmace]

I think it's cute that you guys think that technical issues are driving the beta selection process. Of course some of that happens, but marketing is always part of beta invites. Guaranteed, that invites are going out to game press, industry, influential fansites, etc, hoping to create buzz. Nothing wrong with it, that's how the world goes round, but this elite trustworthy beta tester thing is a myth.


aye its pretty ****in pathetic, and they even admitted to letting a chunk of non life/6mo'ers in on the first wave as well.


Yes, we even did that back in dragonrealms.

lol I remember dragonrealms.... anyone remember Realms of Krell? I remember hunting it down a couple times finding out it had kept getting sold to different teams who kept changing the name on it until it finally was given up.

[eyelusion]

I am affected by what is happening. I have a CO 6 month membership. And yes, part of my reasoning for purchasing the 6 month sub was for the Closed Beta entrance. Enjoying the game btw. I was a long time player of CoH, and I believe Cryptic is a great company and puts out some great games.

But your not going to see me whining and crying over the fact that I didn't get in on the VERY FIRST DAY. Jesus, watching the crying threads crop up like wild fires makes me embarrassed to be a gamer. I didn't delude myself into believing that I would be in Closed Beta the first day, week, or month. I'll get in, when I get the invite...its that simple.

I've been playing/Beta Testing MMOs long enough to know that the Devs pick their personal favorite forum members, personal friends, etc.. into MMOs. To date myself, anyone remember Dragonrealms? And it IS because on the first week, or so, of Beta they want 'dedicated' testers. Now before you QQ'ers start saying "How do you KNOW I'm not dedicated?!?!" It's not about what 'I' know, its about what the Dev's know. They don't know you folks from Adam, and the first week or so of Beta is 'VERY' critical.
So they are going to put their 'known' testers in place first.

They don't want testers starting on day one that just want to play the game and have the bragging rights to say "FIRST!" Which as we all know there will be literally thousands of people after the game starts that will claim that they were in the first week of Beta on the forums.

The facts are that the first day of Beta, or week or so, the game will be buggy. Even with the few hundred that were let in on the first day may crash the servers. Yes, its happened to many a games on the first week of Beta. If that happened, the Doomsayers would be on forums claiming "This game SUCKS!" within minutes....NDA be damned.

You folks that bought CO with the 'assumtion' that you would be FIRST....get a friggin' grip. It said NOWHERE that you would be in FIRST....NO WHERE did it say that. It didn't even say anywhere that Non CO Lifers or 6 Monthers, would NOT be invited BEFORE Lifers or 6 Monthers. It just said we would be granted access to Beta.....PERIOD!

Now, with that said, if I don't get an invite prior to public release...THEN you might see me on the forum complaining. But I have the patience (read maturity) to wait.

I ask my fellow CO Lifers/6 Monthers to show some restraint and most importantly maturity, and give Cryptic some time to get through this first month of Beta. There are reasons for everything. Some are not overtly seeable, but they are there for a reason, whether you understand them or not.

I disagree. If they put the same testers into STO as they had in CO, I call "DOOM!" They did a horrible job to say the least. I'm glad I didn't test CO so I don't have my name on all the screw ups in that game that still plague basic quests and general mispellings in the main city. I mean, c'mon...they have 5 little zones in the entire game with not even enough mission content to level someone to 40. It's imbalanced and been nerfed to hell and continues to be. Testers should have caught way more then they did or it must have been 1 big piece of turd that is a little more shiny now is all.

I say we all give them hell until they get this game up and running right and tons of content. Force them to push the game back if they can't put enough into it. CO is a failure. Testers need to help them learn from it and fix all the similar bugs as they are working off the exact same code they built. Don't bring in new testers that know how the current game is broken and you will get the same.

I personally don't want the same lack of content, bug filled small game called CO. I want STO to be EPIC. Bring in new testers that can make it happen. The last bunch didn't get it done or Cryptic ignored them. Either way, I'm not excited at this Beta start with the game coming out so soon. Give it at least 6 months of testing with the right people and fill it full of content! None of this 4 gb patch on day 1 crap. God, aren't we sick of that crap yet people?

[sylvermane64]

REad all of Closed Beta here we come forum thread and the closed beta answers forum thread and mmorpg forums and you will see at least 30 to 40 links (some duplicate)....I guess you want to be the King of your own thread and NOT READ ANY OTHERS AND BE IN SELF DENIAL....Give me a break...
Undercover Cryptic employee.

Obviously you aren't reading anything that I'm typing. As I stated before, I 'have' read the other threads, and in not any one of them, has a Cryptic or Atari official stated that CO subs would get in first.

Keep running Gemini...that wall is coming fast.

[sylvermane64]

You know repeating it dosent make it any less false, people did pay for the CO subs AND the beta. We didn't buy CO subs then get a surprise message "oh btw lifer/6mo'ers have a better chance of getting into beta yay!" no it was specifically part of the deal everyone getting it bought into.

Should people of payed just to get into the beta and no play co? That is irrelevant because they already did it, with crytpics blessing to I might add. If your going to market a product make sure you can at least live up to the demand, bait and switch is just going to **** people off and possibly cause subscription losses in the long run.

once again...Beta isn't over, it just began.

[printcraftsman]

Obviously you aren't reading anything that I'm typing. As I stated before, I 'have' read the other threads, and in not any one of them, has a Cryptic or Atari official stated that CO subs would get in first.

Keep running Gemini...that wall is coming fast.


THEN YOU ARE UNABLE TO COMPREHEND WHAT YOU READ

http://forums.champions-online.com/s...96#post1050296

http://forums.champions-online.com/s...ad.php?t=64807

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/256836

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=862256&postcount=367

devs have even contradicted eachother over this

I TOOK 60 SECONDS AND FOUND MANY LINK ( SOME MAY BE DUPES) YOU GOT TO BECOME SELF AWARE AND LEARN FOR YOURSELF.... ICAN'T SPOON FEED YOU ANYMORE.

NICHALUAS IS AN UNDERCOVER CRYPTIC EMPLOYEE

[sylvermane64]

THEN YOU ARE UNABLE TO COMPREHEND WHAT YOU READ

http://forums.champions-online.com/s...96#post1050296

http://forums.champions-online.com/s...ad.php?t=64807

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/256836

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=862256&postcount=367

devs have even contradicted eachother over this

I TOOK 60 SECONDS AND FOUND MANY LINK ( SOME MAY BE DUPES) YOU GOT TO BECOME SELF AWARE AND LEARN FOR YOURSELF.... ICAN'T SPOON FEED YOU ANYMORE.

NICHALUAS IS AN UNDERCOVER CRYPTIC EMPLOYEE

And not a single one of those posts shows a official Cryptic or Atari official state that you would get in Closed Beta FIRST.

And only thing that your feeding, is your own self delusional and 'very' misguided thought process.

[printcraftsman]

And not a single one of those posts shows a official Cryptic or Atari official state that you would get in Closed Beta FIRST.

And only thing that your feeding, is your own self delusional and 'very' misguided thought process.

APPARANTLY YOU DON'T READ VERY WELL...SAYING IT ISN'T SO DOEST MAKE IT NOT SO.

[sylvermane64]

APPARANTLY YOU DON'T READ VERY WELL...SAYING IT ISN'T SO DOEST MAKE IT NOT SO.

I read very well, thank you. But, unlike you, I read what is written, and not assume what they meant. If an official spokesperson doesn't say "you will be first", I don't assume that I will be.

If they say I will have access to Beta, then I will expect to have access to Beta when my invite comes.

See how that works? Of course you don't.

[Musterion]

Mmm. Colourful.

[printcraftsman]

I read very well, thank you. But, unlike you, I read what is written, and not assume what they meant. If an official spokesperson doesn't say "you will be first", I don't assume that I will be.

If they say I will have access to Beta, then I will expect to have access to Beta when my invite comes.

See how that works? Of course you don't.

LOL......ROLLING ON THE FLOOR LAUGHING....YOU SHOULD DO STANDUP

[bobalobabingbong]

APPARANTLY YOU DON'T READ VERY WELL...SAYING IT ISN'T SO DOEST MAKE IT NOT SO.

Calm down man! This is a discussion. You must expect that people will disagree with you.

You assumed that you would get in the very first day. Did you know that assumptions are the mother of all mess ups?

[jeandeaux]

so you are saying that if you pay for a movie ticket, with a free drink included, that you do not get before the end of the movie, i should just suck it up and not have paid for it????

What you're talking about is a theater full of people and you're complaining that you weren't the first one to get their free drink. You'll get your free drink, just wait your turn in line.

[Jeck-Kar.Rathimon]

I've said it on the SW:TOR forums, I've said it on one of the threads here, and I will say it again here. The people who bought a CO 6 month or Lifetime subscription should really chill the frak out! Everyone who partook in the subscription special(s) will get in sooner or later. Some of us, like myself, may not even be getting into Beta at all. So to whomever this post addresses, consider yourself lucky.

[satek06]

I am affected by what is happening. I have a CO 6 month membership. And yes, part of my reasoning for purchasing the 6 month sub was for the Closed Beta entrance. Enjoying the game btw. I was a long time player of CoH, and I believe Cryptic is a great company and puts out some great games.

But your not going to see me whining and crying over the fact that I didn't get in on the VERY FIRST DAY. Jesus, watching the crying threads crop up like wild fires makes me embarrassed to be a gamer. I didn't delude myself into believing that I would be in Closed Beta the first day, week, or month. I'll get in, when I get the invite...its that simple.

I've been playing/Beta Testing MMOs long enough to know that the Devs pick their personal favorite forum members, personal friends, etc.. into MMOs. To date myself, anyone remember Dragonrealms? And it IS because on the first week, or so, of Beta they want 'dedicated' testers. Now before you QQ'ers start saying "How do you KNOW I'm not dedicated?!?!" It's not about what 'I' know, its about what the Dev's know. They don't know you folks from Adam, and the first week or so of Beta is 'VERY' critical.
So they are going to put their 'known' testers in place first.

They don't want testers starting on day one that just want to play the game and have the bragging rights to say "FIRST!" Which as we all know there will be literally thousands of people after the game starts that will claim that they were in the first week of Beta on the forums.

The facts are that the first day of Beta, or week or so, the game will be buggy. Even with the few hundred that were let in on the first day may crash the servers. Yes, its happened to many a games on the first week of Beta. If that happened, the Doomsayers would be on forums claiming "This game SUCKS!" within minutes....NDA be damned.

You folks that bought CO with the 'assumtion' that you would be FIRST....get a friggin' grip. It said NOWHERE that you would be in FIRST....NO WHERE did it say that. It didn't even say anywhere that Non CO Lifers or 6 Monthers, would NOT be invited BEFORE Lifers or 6 Monthers. It just said we would be granted access to Beta.....PERIOD!

Now, with that said, if I don't get an invite prior to public release...THEN you might see me on the forum complaining. But I have the patience (read maturity) to wait.

I ask my fellow CO Lifers/6 Monthers to show some restraint and most importantly maturity, and give Cryptic some time to get through this first month of Beta. There are reasons for everything. Some are not overtly seeable, but they are there for a reason, whether you understand them or not.

wonderful post, i feel the same way about all of this, thanks for the information and im on your side with what ever happens around hear, people need to calm down and wait for there emails to come through, and if they dont, people will still take part in the game in either open beta or the game when it goes live, just hang in there people and ease the complaining, the devs are working hard to get us all in but it wont take overnight for that to happen so be patient with them, if it was not for cryptic we would not have a game like this in the making now would be, so in a way we owe it to them for taking the time to make this game for us, thanks you cryptic for all that has been done so far.

[jiberjaber]

did someone say free drinks I want 3

[KO_Gilligan]

I ask my fellow CO Lifers/6 Monthers to show some restraint and most importantly maturity, and give Cryptic some time to get through this first month of Beta. There are reasons for everything. Some are not overtly seeable, but they are there for a reason, whether you understand them or not.

There are reasons... I actually outlined them before and after the offer. They chose to market this there way - and it was not ethical.

Most people are not crying about DAY ONE at all.

What gives you the idea they are?

It's obvious this is not about day one - in case you haven't noticed they deceived people and blatently failed to set the record straight - along with wiping out the hundreds if not thousands of CO forum posts in which we discussed this.

You missed the point then

You're missing the point now

You'll continue missing the point no matter how long it takes them to fix this, and even after they let everyone in.

What they did was wrong, and now they face the music with the arrogance that allows you to call us liars and whiners - that is the most serious issue of all.

You fail, and they fail.

Fail thread, fail community, fail company, just spread the fail around.

Maybe you missed the "Supplies are Limited" Fiasco.... Well I didn't, and I like their game, but dishonest marketing and sales is just dishonest - hell with STO Beta - it's hardly about that anymore - afterall they aren't worried about us crashing their servers, their giving preference to non-CO players because their scared to see the server population drop even more.

Fail, Fail , Fail

[bdavis8529]

I bought the 6 month sub to CO only because of the STO beta. I don't mind waiting a few weeks as long as I dont get a invite a couple days before it goes to Open stage. Otherwise a refund would be nice since I don't play CO.

[VengefulTick]

Obviously you aren't reading anything that I'm typing. As I stated before, I 'have' read the other threads, and in not any one of them, has a Cryptic or Atari official stated that CO subs would get in first.


If the word of an official Cryptic representative is not official...than what is?

http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...2&postcount=48

http://forums.champions-online.com/s...96&postcount=4

http://forums.champions-online.com/s...85&postcount=9

I'm not trying to say you are completely wrong in your point of view. Only that things were said that, as in all things spoken, could be taken in many different ways. It is human nature.

However, there has been, and remains plenty of opportunity for Cryptic to give much better responses and answers than they have.

Yes, they have came back and given some more clarification, which helps. But when you feel cheated, you feel cheated and I'm sure at one point in your life, you've felt that way. I would think that those "whining" are in that boat and are upset.

You not feeling that way does not make their emotions/opinions any less valid than yours. I see on both sides of the argument where some have taken it too far and abandoned reason. But both sides of this argument also have valid points.

[printcraftsman]

There are reasons... I actually outlined them before and after the offer. They chose to market this there way - and it was not ethical.

Most people are not crying about DAY ONE at all.

What gives you the idea they are?

It's obvious this is not about day one - in case you haven't noticed they decieved people and blatently failed to set the record straight - along with wiping out the hundreds if not thousands of CO forum posts in which we discussed this.

You missed the point then

Your missing the point now

You'll continue missing the point no matter how long it takes them to fix this, and even after they let everyone in.

What they did was wrong, and now they face the music with the arrogance that allows you to call us liars and whiners - that is the most serious issue of all.

You fail, and they fail.

Fail thread, fail community, fail company, just spread the fail around.

Maybe you missed the "Supplies are Limited" Fiasco.... Well I didn't, and I like their game, but dishonest marketing and sales is just dishonest - hell with STO Beta - it's hardly about that anymore - afterall they aren't worried about us crashing their servers, their giving preference to non-CO players because their scared to see the server population drop even more.

Fail, Fail , Fail

You said it perfectly....It is how they did it and yes I agree it was extrmemly unethicaland was done blatantly...OWN UP CRYPTIC...MAKE THIS RIGHT (does the caps make me raging)

[sylvermane64]

If the word of an official Cryptic representative is not official...than what is?

http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...2&postcount=48

http://forums.champions-online.com/s...96&postcount=4

http://forums.champions-online.com/s...85&postcount=9

I'm not trying to say you are completely wrong in your point of view. Only that things were said that, as in all things spoken, could be taken in many different ways. It is human nature.

However, there has been, and remains plenty of opportunity for Cryptic to give much better responses and answers than they have.

Yes, they have came back and given some more clarification, which helps. But when you feel cheated, you feel cheated and I'm sure at one point in your life, you've felt that way. I would think that those "whining" are in that boat and are upset.

You not feeling that way does not make their emotions/opinions any less valid than yours. I see on both sides of the argument where some have taken it too far and abandoned reason. But both sides of this argument also have valid points.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I can and do understand where a 'misconception' could have been had throughout all of this. But, as you said, there are some that have 'abandoned reason', and that is really where I'm pointing my posts. Which when you really look at it, there are not that many, but they are those in the 'Vocal Minority' that are the ones that are really pushing the issue.

I seriously doubt if there are more than 20 of these vocal minority folks on the forums. But, as we all know, they attract others, like myself, like a moth to a flame. No pun intended. :)

[printcraftsman]

If the word of an official Cryptic representative is not official...than what is?

http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...2&postcount=48

http://forums.champions-online.com/s...96&postcount=4

http://forums.champions-online.com/s...85&postcount=9

I'm not trying to say you are completely wrong in your point of view. Only that things were said that, as in all things spoken, could be taken in many different ways. It is human nature.

However, there has been, and remains plenty of opportunity for Cryptic to give much better responses and answers than they have.

Yes, they have came back and given some more clarification, which helps. But when you feel cheated, you feel cheated and I'm sure at one point in your life, you've felt that way. I would think that those "whining" are in that boat and are upset.

You not feeling that way does not make their emotions/opinions any less valid than yours. I see on both sides of the argument where some have taken it too far and abandoned reason. But both sides of this argument also have valid points.

They discontinued the links you cited the cleanup has begun.

[printcraftsman]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I can and do understand where a 'misconception' could have been had throughout all of this. But, as you said, there are some that have 'abandoned reason', and that is really where I'm pointing my posts. Which when you really look at it, there are not that many, but they are those in the 'Vocal Minority' that are the ones that are really pushing the issue.

I seriously doubt if there are more than 20 of these vocal minority folks on the forums. But, as we all know, they attract others, like myself, like a moth to a flame. No pun intended. :)


Go thru the threads and you will see documented here (145 people) and on other "non cryptic forums" (216 people) all saying the same thing.

Thanks for at least understanding and not beatings cryptic drum of no wrong doing..

[LordDave]

They discontinued the links you cited the cleanup has begun.

Nope.
Those links don't work cause he didn't copy them right. If you notice there are several ... in the middle of the link that shouldn't be there.

Congratulations, you've just jumped to a conclusion without properly looking at the reasoning. Welcome to humanity.

[KO_Gilligan]

Nope.
Those links don't work cause he didn't copy them right. If you notice there are several ... in the middle of the link that shouldn't be there.

Sure...

I'll bet you said the same thing about the grassy knoll :rolleyes:

[wilddemoncat]

Well this does not sound good, from the german co forum (thanks google)

"Currently I can only try to explain and reassure.
We are in the first week of beta testing. The last phase, which months. Anyone who has bought a special offer, will guarantee in these months have access. And even though much of the beta can be damn dry, so it's still exciting to see the changes. "

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?p=1304572#post1304572


These months.....

[KO_Gilligan]

Well this does not sound good, from the german co forum (thanks google)

"Currently I can only try to explain and reassure.
We are in the first week of beta testing. The last phase, which months. Anyone who has bought a special offer, will guarantee in these months have access. And even though much of the beta can be damn dry, so it's still exciting to see the changes. "

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?p=1304572#post1304572


These months.....

forget it Germany, your ping is too high, last day of Beta for you !

[printcraftsman]

Nope.
Those links don't work cause he didn't copy them right. If you notice there are several ... in the middle of the link that shouldn't be there.

Congratulations, you've just jumped to a conclusion without properly looking at the reasoning. Welcome to humanity.

you are right....I can own up that I made a mistake....

now the question is can and will Cryptic

[LordDave]

Sure...

I'll bet you said the same thing about the grassy knoll :rolleyes:

The Grassy knoll is a myth created by the government to hide the concrete knoll, which holds a super secret bunker of alien weapons that were accidentally fired when JFK drove by, causing his head to explode from the inside.

I am serious though.
His link:
http :// forums.champions-online.com/s...85&postcount=9

Actual link:
http :// forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?p=1304572#post1304572
Notice anything missing?
(I added in spaces so it wouldn't automatically display them as links)

[KO_Gilligan]

The Grassy knoll is a myth created by the government to hide the concrete knoll, which holds a super secret bunker of alien weapons that were accidentally fired when JFK drove by, causing his head to explode from the inside.

I am serious though.
His link:
http :// forums.champions-online.com/s...85&postcount=9

Actual link:
http :// forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?p=1304572#post1304572
Notice anything missing?
(I added in spaces so it wouldn't automatically display them as links)

You shouldn't have posted the real link...

you'll be on the run too now, they already got my dog.

[printcraftsman]

The Grassy knoll is a myth created by the government to hide the concrete knoll, which holds a super secret bunker of alien weapons that were accidentally fired when JFK drove by, causing his head to explode from the inside.

I am serious though.
His link:
http :// forums.champions-online.com/s...85&postcount=9

Actual link:
http :// forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?p=1304572#post1304572
Notice anything missing?
(I added in spaces so it wouldn't automatically display them as links)

YES...Do you?

[huud007]

all it said is, you get access to closed beta... well closed beta is publicly stated to be running, and i do not have access to it... ergo the sales argument is flawed and i don't have what i paid for...


The funny thing is that if Cryptic granted everyone whining their wish and let them all into the Beta, the server crash instantly. Then no one could get in, the game would be delayed since it can't get tested; and the forum would be filled with posts about how they payed to get into Beta and the game is broken.

[KO_Gilligan]

The funny thing is that if Cryptic granted everyone whining their wish and let them all into the Beta, the server crash instantly. Then no one could get in, the game would be delayed since it can't get tested; and the forum would be filled with posts about how they payed to get into Beta and the game is broken.

I was in CO from early on.... It will be broken, and missing stuff, lots of stuff :o

[Jaxston]

Not to mention that lots of people's first reaction will be ...."this is it..this isnt what I thougth it'd be". :(

[justplainzero]

but nowhere did it state that you might not get into closed beta until much later in the cycle...

all it said is, you get access to closed beta... well closed beta is publicly stated to be running, and i do not have access to it... ergo the sales argument is flawed and i don't have what i paid for...

now i'm one of those who are wiling to wait a week or a bit more, but i paid for it, so i want it sooner not later... :D
i do understand the reason for not having all in at once... but if they can't live up to them selling the closed beta access, they should never have included it...

Your logic is flawed. Nowhere was it stated WHEN you are getting your access. To honour their part of the arrangement, you simply need to be granted access sometime DURING CB.

FYI, your "6 month sub" had a perk - access to STO. I too have a 6 month sub, and unlike 90% of you I realied it simply means once they are done with testing and probably in the FINAL...we will get access. Remember those sites that gave away CB invites?...Thats us

So Prepare to get in sometime in Jan/Feb. If you HONESTLY thought you would get in before then...I have a fridge in the North Pole to sell you

[Gnosis]

To those that bought a CO 6 Month, or Life Membership..... Go play CO. :D

[Jaxston]

To those that bought a CO 6 Month, or Life Membership..... Go play CO. :D

Good suggestion....I played last night til 5am :eek:

[Laphtiya]

Reading this topic is seems to be that some people seem to be a little confused about what the Beta is about. I keep reading things on the line of "I got the 6 months to I can get the beta and play the game early" (or something on those lines). People seem to forget that this is Beta "testing", yeah we would all love to play the game early (I know I would) But everyone in the beta is there to test the game for bugs (by playing it yes) but you might be asked to find specific bugs or test a raid (I was asked this during the Warhammer beta). What you'll find is first they'll probably be testing the server loads and performace with a small number (most likely competition winners) which they will increase over a week or so while monitoring server stress. Then all you 6 months and life guys will trickle in, then it will go to the general populace of the applicants perhaps taking a few months in total. Then once you guys have tested and filled out reports (yeah you read right, reports lol) they will move into open beta possibly a few weeks or a month max before release date. Just hold on tight, keep calm, remember that they did say they would give life and 6 month subs entrance into the beta. This is practically a contract and seeing as money was involved I doubt they would have lied to you.

Chill, relax and remember every day that passes is one day closer to the release date :)

And to those who are in the beta please please please! test as much as you can because you guys/gals control the release date. The more testing and bug finding you people find the faster cryptic will fix the game and who knows you may even move the release date forward. You never know ;)

[KO_Gilligan]

who knows you may even move the release date forward. You never know ;)



Don't make me go get my Roflcopter pilot uniform on.



I sort of agree with you, but I would put more emphasis on the fact that playtesting made my speakers scream, and my GPU make crazy designs on the screen.

True story.

Beta is not so glorious when the fact is the game is not fully working

[Laphtiya]

Beta is not so glorious when the fact is the game is not fully working

I agree, I've been in a few betas and testing Warhammer online actually convinced me not to buy the game. Not because it was buggy or anything, just because simply put I didn't like the game. But because I was chosen for beta I still felt obligated to carry out the job I was asked to do. So yeah it is not all fun and games and glorious.

[duckforceone]

The funny thing is that if Cryptic granted everyone whining their wish and let them all into the Beta, the server crash instantly. Then no one could get in, the game would be delayed since it can't get tested; and the forum would be filled with posts about how they payed to get into Beta and the game is broken.

oh i know that... which is why i'm not truly complaining now... :D i'm just enjoying the arguments and the forum uproar... i'm perfectly happy to wait a week or a wee bit more...

and that people keep throwing around the "show me where cryptic said you got access first", and ignoring the argument to the opposite "show me where cryptic stated any limits on said access"

hehe... _D

[Zandtar]

oh i know that... which is why i'm not truly complaining now... :D i'm just enjoying the arguments and the forum uproar... i'm perfectly happy to wait a week or a wee bit more...

and that people keep throwing around the "show me where cryptic said you got access first", and ignoring the argument to the opposite "show me where cryptic stated any limits on said access"

hehe... _D

The only problem with the latter argument is that it makes no sense.....

[duckforceone]

The only problem with the latter argument is that it makes no sense.....

how does it make no sense?

people are pulling up the argument, that making assumptions is flawed. well assuming that they meant limited access from their sales page, is also a flawed assumption... so neither argument is valid, yet people keep using one or the other...

all the sales page said, you buy access to closed beta.

so neither argument can be used.

what you can do, is compare to similar sales.

like imagine you bought access to a party. the party starts at 1800 hours and ends at 0200 hours.
yet your ticket only says, access to said party. so when you show up at 1900 hours, you are told that you might get in later that evening. no deadline. you don't know whether you get in at 2000 or at 0130. yet according to the assumption that as long as they let you into the beta even 1 hour before open beta, then you still get what you paid for. would you think that same way if you only got to enjoy 30 mins of said party, even though you paid the same as everyone else that has been inside and having fun all night?

[Isengardtom]

I have no issue with waiting a little bit longer. I do think the extra wait should be limited however, not another month, at least not for those that paid

[Zandtar]

how does it make no sense?


I makes no sense because it's the same line of logic children use to justify behavior that goes out of bounds. "But you never said I couldn't do it". There's something called common sense. Some people have it, some people don't.

[curtst]

all the sales page said, you buy access to closed beta.

Actually all the sales page said is you buy a sub to CO. You get CB access as a perk. No one bought CB access to STO, they bought a sub to CO with beta access as a perk amount other things as a perk.

[KO_Gilligan]

how does it make no sense?

people are pulling up the argument, that making assumptions is flawed. well assuming that they meant limited access from their sales page, is also a flawed assumption... so neither argument is valid, yet people keep using one or the other...

all the sales page said, you buy access to closed beta.

so neither argument can be used.

what you can do, is compare to similar sales.

like imagine you bought access to a party. the party starts at 1800 hours and ends at 0200 hours.
yet your ticket only says, access to said party. so when you show up at 1900 hours, you are told that you might get in later that evening. no deadline. you don't know whether you get in at 2000 or at 0130. yet according to the assumption that as long as they let you into the beta even 1 hour before open beta, then you still get what you paid for. would you think that same way if you only got to enjoy 30 mins of said party, even though you paid the same as everyone else that has been inside and having fun all night?

This is a great analogy. People also forget how much we talked about the preferential treatment for Beta purchasers. There was never any question at the time regarding "how much" beta we would get. Why was it not debated? I can tell you why, because they sold "access to the Beta"....

to the point in which I speculated they would have pre-beta so they could ramp this fiasco up.

I seen it coming, and I was wrong about what they would do...

Instead they make wee right into the wind. :o

and it's advertised that Closed Beta has started - even putting their hands on their hips and declaring "yup, we're letting in non-subscribers now" - of course subscribers have some kind of priority... HUH?

with no definitive word regarding forecasted timeframes for purchasers who daily have a greater and greater complaint. A valid complaint.

Seems as if people have short memories and even shorter attention spans. Remember the September 1 issue? The wipe of posts regarding it? The discovery of altered promotion material?

Ha... I'd like to not have that NDA right up until the last Lifetime purchaser - make mine last - Seriously Cryptic, I want to sit right here and remind people about this deal, until we all make it in. :D

[GenSphinx]

I am affected by what is happening. I have a CO 6 month membership. And yes, part of my reasoning for purchasing the 6 month sub was for the Closed Beta entrance. Enjoying the game btw. I was a long time player of CoH, and I believe Cryptic is a great company and puts out some great games.

But your not going to see me whining and crying over the fact that I didn't get in on the VERY FIRST DAY. Jesus, watching the crying threads crop up like wild fires makes me embarrassed to be a gamer. I didn't delude myself into believing that I would be in Closed Beta the first day, week, or month. I'll get in, when I get the invite...its that simple.

I've been playing/Beta Testing MMOs long enough to know that the Devs pick their personal favorite forum members, personal friends, etc.. into MMOs. To date myself, anyone remember Dragonrealms? And it IS because on the first week, or so, of Beta they want 'dedicated' testers. Now before you QQ'ers start saying "How do you KNOW I'm not dedicated?!?!" It's not about what 'I' know, its about what the Dev's know. They don't know you folks from Adam, and the first week or so of Beta is 'VERY' critical.
So they are going to put their 'known' testers in place first.

They don't want testers starting on day one that just want to play the game and have the bragging rights to say "FIRST!" Which as we all know there will be literally thousands of people after the game starts that will claim that they were in the first week of Beta on the forums.

The facts are that the first day of Beta, or week or so, the game will be buggy. Even with the few hundred that were let in on the first day may crash the servers. Yes, its happened to many a games on the first week of Beta. If that happened, the Doomsayers would be on forums claiming "This game SUCKS!" within minutes....NDA be damned.

You folks that bought CO with the 'assumtion' that you would be FIRST....get a friggin' grip. It said NOWHERE that you would be in FIRST....NO WHERE did it say that. It didn't even say anywhere that Non CO Lifers or 6 Monthers, would NOT be invited BEFORE Lifers or 6 Monthers. It just said we would be granted access to Beta.....PERIOD!

Now, with that said, if I don't get an invite prior to public release...THEN you might see me on the forum complaining. But I have the patience (read maturity) to wait.

I ask my fellow CO Lifers/6 Monthers to show some restraint and most importantly maturity, and give Cryptic some time to get through this first month of Beta. There are reasons for everything. Some are not overtly seeable, but they are there for a reason, whether you understand them or not.

nuff said couldn't have put it better myself

[Kirby]

all the sales page said, you buy access to closed beta. [1]

what you can do, is compare to similar sales. [2]

like imagine you bought access to a party. the party starts at 1800 hours and ends at 0200 hours.
yet your ticket only says, access to said party. so when you show up at 1900 hours, you are told that you might get in later that evening. no deadline. you don't know whether you get in at 2000 or at 0130. yet according to the assumption that as long as they let you into the beta even 1 hour before open beta, then you still get what you paid for. would you think that same way if you only got to enjoy 30 mins of said party, even though you paid the same as everyone else that has been inside and having fun all night? [3]
[1] Actually, you bought a subscription to Champions Online with the perk of Closed Beta access to Star Trek Online. While you, and many others, may have bought the 6-month subscription to CO simply for the Closed Beta, your statement is not correct.

[2] This is another area where your argument consistently fails, because you have yet to compare to anything similar.

[3] In this poor example, I will have to use Studio 54 as your party zone. Not everyone who lined up at the door got in right away. And since it was an exclusive club, even those who were guaranteed access didn't always get in when they wanted. Again, however, your comparison is quite poor as you aren't comparing your example to what you actually are receiving.

Try this:
You purchased a Honey-Baked Ham. With that ham came a coupon that said "Guaranteed access to help set up Studio 54 before its Grand Opening." However, Studio 54 doesn't state when they're going to have their Grand Opening. You don't like ham, but you want to get into Studio 54 because you have a feeling it's going to be great.

On day x, Studio 54 mentions that they'll start accepting help to get set up. Part of the "help" will be a demographic sampling and part will be those with guaranteed access. These people are told to help with specific things, perhaps a few try out a dancing cage to make sure the ceiling will support someone in it (specs say they will). A few test the dancing stage, some sit in booths to see if the waitresses (you know, servers) can handle them. Some just flush the toilets over and over. You don't make it in on day x.

--Your current argument is that Studio 54 is not being honorable or ethic or your best buddy, et cetera, because they said you'd have guaranteed access and you're claiming "they didn't say when, so they didn't say when not! Thus, I should be in, but I'll wait, even though I should have been first."

On day x+3, they invite another group. On this day they add another dance cage, more waitresses, and have more mops for clean-ups. You don't make it then either. Eventually, on day x+30 you make it in, along with others. Now, they ask you to report any animals (bugs, specifically) you might find and to check certain areas. But you, you want to explore. You go try out the stage claiming you're looking for chips in the floor or even how far you can go before you fall off the stage. Then you go to the booths to see what the waitresses are doing.

By day x + 30 + y, they announce that all guaranteed access people are in and want you to test like it was real. Finally, they thank you for your help and show you and everyone else out the door while they clean up and prepare for the Grand Opening.

You are shocked, you say, "But I paid to have access to the party!" They tell you that you didn't, you paid for food with guaranteed to help. When the party starts, you'll have to pay like everyone else.

___________________________

Another way to think about this:
Think of STO as a train track system. They've built their station, they've built their tracks and they've been doing internal testing. Internal testing has only consisted of engines with one passenger car. With Closed Beta, they'll add additional passenger cars -one at a time- to see if their system can handle this, if their programming was correct so no trains would crash, and if the stewards on the train can handle the food & drink requests. Those that arrive in Closed Beta time are asked to check for a smooth ride, clean carpets, undamaged seats, cleanliness, and so on and so on. Each time a set of trains & passenger cars seem to pass the inspections, they add another passenger car to each train until their grand opening. You'll get on one of those cars, before the Grand Opening, but there's no guarantee which car you'll get on.

____________________________

Finally...
...there will most likely be specific days when they send out invitations. Sadly, we don't know when those are. But you might imagine it like this:

Day 1: Playtime.

Day 2: The tech department works over all the data collected in playtime.

Day 3: Tech department: "Well, we got our stuff. To further our tests, we need some more people with Specs A, B and C and generally about 200 people more next time. Go and invite.

Still Day 3: Some other people start working over the applications to find the people with specs A, B and C, and after that, fill the rest of the 200 people demanded by the techs with people from the CO subs.

End of Day 3 / Early Day 4: Invites go out.

______________________________

By this time, anyone with standard reasoning can understand the process. Only those too irate or too irrational will continue to falsely assume that they've been lied to, dishonored, et cetera.

[bobalobabingbong]

oh i know that... which is why i'm not truly complaining now... :D i'm just enjoying the arguments and the forum uproar... i'm perfectly happy to wait a week or a wee bit more...

and that people keep throwing around the "show me where cryptic said you got access first", and ignoring the argument to the opposite "show me where cryptic stated any limits on said access"

hehe... _D

Exactly. So nobody can say either way. They never game any timeframe, because they couldn't. If they give a timeframe, and can't hit it, it will be disaterous, probably as much as this "I'm not in beta yet" stuff.

[Kirby]

This is a great analogy. [1] People also forget how much we talked about the preferential treatment for Beta purchasers. There was never any question at the time regarding "how much" beta we would get. Why was it not debated? I can tell you why, because they sold "access to the Beta".... [2]

to the point in which I speculated they would have pre-beta so they could ramp this fiasco up. [3]
[1] You have no concept of what an analogy is, do you? It's comparing things that are similar, not comparing things unrelated and pretending they are the same.

[2] So, in essence, you assumed something and then assumed your assumption was fact because you didn't actually think about it intellectually and in a business sense, correct?

[3] Which would be incorrect, it seems, because your speculation wasn't based on sound judgment to begin with.

Look at my previous post. With your current line of thinking, you do not fall under the "standard reasoning" group, but the "too irate and too irrational" one instead.

[bobalobabingbong]

how does it make no sense?

people are pulling up the argument, that making assumptions is flawed. well assuming that they meant limited access from their sales page, is also a flawed assumption... so neither argument is valid, yet people keep using one or the other...

all the sales page said, you buy access to closed beta.

so neither argument can be used.

what you can do, is compare to similar sales.

like imagine you bought access to a party. the party starts at 1800 hours and ends at 0200 hours.
yet your ticket only says, access to said party. so when you show up at 1900 hours, you are told that you might get in later that evening. no deadline. you don't know whether you get in at 2000 or at 0130. yet according to the assumption that as long as they let you into the beta even 1 hour before open beta, then you still get what you paid for. would you think that same way if you only got to enjoy 30 mins of said party, even though you paid the same as everyone else that has been inside and having fun all night?

I'm sorry dude, but you keep putting out anologys that make no sense...

[KO_Gilligan]

[1] You have no concept of what an analogy is, do you? It's comparing things that are similar, not comparing things unrelated and pretending they are the same.

[2] So, in essence, you assumed something and then assumed your assumption was fact because you didn't actually think about it intellectually and in a business sense, correct?

[3] Which would be incorrect, it seems, because your speculation wasn't based on sound judgment to begin with.

Look at my previous post. With your current line of thinking, you do not fall under the "standard reasoning" group, but the "too irate and too irrational" one instead.

Your argument is circular and consists of only insults.

They promoted a product that included Closed Beta. This isn't Rocket Science

Probably be more convincing if you talked about the issue instead of talking about me.

[Kirby]

Your argument is circular and consists of only insults.

They promoted a product that included Closed Beta. This isn't Rocket Science

Probably be more convincing if you talked about the issue instead of talking about me.Please quit showing your lack of intellect. I stated you should look at my previous post where it is explained. You are correct that this isn't Rocket Science. As simple as it is, it still escapes you. CLOSED BETA ISN'T OVER; it will last for MONTHS. You weren't promised Day 1. You have brain cells, please use them properly.

[bobalobabingbong]

Your argument is circular and consists of only insults.

They promoted a product that included Closed Beta. This isn't Rocket Science

Probably be more convincing if you talked about the issue instead of talking about me.

They promoted CB, with no timeframe. CB will be going on a long time. People need to understand what CB is. It is not playtime, and they do not let people in all at once. Ever. With any CB ever.

[Sunfury]

I've been watching these forums for quite awhile and I try not to respond to these types of posts, but you know its disheartening to see all of these folks **** and moan over not being allowed to get in CB the very second it opens up. That energy can be more productive in a lot of different areas in my opinion. It really reminds me of all the supposed grown-ups that I supervise at work that act like 5 year olds all the time. If it was up to me I'd make sure every last person that complained got their CB invite the second to last day of CB.

[Musterion]

Schroedinger's Beta. :mad:

[KO_Gilligan]

They promoted CB, with no timeframe. CB will be going on a long time. People need to understand what CB is. It is not playtime, and they do not let people in all at once. Ever. With any CB ever.

The day one argument is moot - and I don't care about Beta - when do YOU think they will let people in?

:D

Because it seems you really haven't read my posts.

[Sjampoo]

It seems like complaining has become an integral part of MMO's. These boards are beginning to resemble the AION-forums. People are a) online or b) insulting each other from behind their keyboards. Please be so kind to remember it's actual people you're talking to, with opinions of their own.

Bottom line seems to be: We don't know because we haven't been told. When we're told, we will know. Just be glad that there are people debugging STO as we speak.. because that's why we applied for beta? Right?

Edit: grammar

[bobalobabingbong]

The day one argument is moot - and I don't care about Beta - when do YOU think they will let people in?

:D

Because it seems you really haven't read my posts.

I have read them... Well maybe not all of them... :)

I cirtainly hope sooner rather than later. I will give it a month into CB before I get too itchy. They will likely invite every week, increasing the number of invites each time. They will probably burn through the CO subs in a month. But this is strictly speculation. I have no idea really. I can only hope.

It seems like complaining has become an integral part of MMO's. These boards are beginning to resemble the AION-forums. People are a) online or b) insulting each other from behind their keyboards. Please be so kind to remember it's actual people you're talking to, with opinions of their own.

Bottom line seems to be: We don't know because we haven't been told. When we're told, we will know. Just be glad that there are people debugging STO as we speak.. because that's why we applied for beta? Right?

Edit: grammar

Agreed. We know that progress is being made, and that puts us all a little closer to playing the game. The worst part of the wait for me was not knowing when beta would start.

[Rillanor]

I am affected by what is happening. I have a CO 6 month membership. And yes, part of my reasoning for purchasing the 6 month sub was for the Closed Beta entrance. Enjoying the game btw. I was a long time player of CoH, and I believe Cryptic is a great company and puts out some great games.

But your not going to see me whining and crying over the fact that I didn't get in on the VERY FIRST DAY. Jesus, watching the crying threads crop up like wild fires makes me embarrassed to be a gamer. I didn't delude myself into believing that I would be in Closed Beta the first day, week, or month. I'll get in, when I get the invite...its that simple.

I've been playing/Beta Testing MMOs long enough to know that the Devs pick their personal favorite forum members, personal friends, etc.. into MMOs. To date myself, anyone remember Dragonrealms? And it IS because on the first week, or so, of Beta they want 'dedicated' testers. Now before you QQ'ers start saying "How do you KNOW I'm not dedicated?!?!" It's not about what 'I' know, its about what the Dev's know. They don't know you folks from Adam, and the first week or so of Beta is 'VERY' critical.
So they are going to put their 'known' testers in place first.

They don't want testers starting on day one that just want to play the game and have the bragging rights to say "FIRST!" Which as we all know there will be literally thousands of people after the game starts that will claim that they were in the first week of Beta on the forums.

The facts are that the first day of Beta, or week or so, the game will be buggy. Even with the few hundred that were let in on the first day may crash the servers. Yes, its happened to many a games on the first week of Beta. If that happened, the Doomsayers would be on forums claiming "This game SUCKS!" within minutes....NDA be damned.

You folks that bought CO with the 'assumtion' that you would be FIRST....get a friggin' grip. It said NOWHERE that you would be in FIRST....NO WHERE did it say that. It didn't even say anywhere that Non CO Lifers or 6 Monthers, would NOT be invited BEFORE Lifers or 6 Monthers. It just said we would be granted access to Beta.....PERIOD!

Now, with that said, if I don't get an invite prior to public release...THEN you might see me on the forum complaining. But I have the patience (read maturity) to wait.

I ask my fellow CO Lifers/6 Monthers to show some restraint and most importantly maturity, and give Cryptic some time to get through this first month of Beta. There are reasons for everything. Some are not overtly seeable, but they are there for a reason, whether you understand them or not.

Well said mate :D

[Rillanor]

The day one argument is moot - and I don't care about Beta - when do YOU think they will let people in?

:D

Because it seems you really haven't read my posts.

:DI'll start a give Gilligan a place in CLOSED BETA petition if ya like mate :D

[KO_Gilligan]

I have read them... Well maybe not all of them... :)

I cirtainly hope sooner rather than later. I will give it a month into CB before I get too itchy. They will likely invite every week, increasing the number of invites each time. They will probably burn through the CO subs in a month. But this is strictly speculation. I have no idea really. I can only hope.


.

Fair enough... I was speculating three weeks - either way it would be great - I'm sure it's not gonna be easy to get us in.

Know if we could get Cryptic to give us an ESTIMATED schedule, it would be nice. Perhaps they haven't because they are optimistic about having some better numbers soon. Obviously they can't dump us on the servers at once. I was in CO Beta going way back, Even the little surge from Sakura park was notable, when they dumped the promoted testers (was a web magazine promo ) on us, all hell broke loose :eek:

I hope you are right :D

[KO_Gilligan]

I'll start a give Gilligan a place in CLOSED BETA petition if ya like mate

I already agreed to be the Captain that will be the last one on the pre-NDA ship - Last one out - so to speak.

:D:D Get Gilligan Into Beta :D:D

[Vaercolac]

Even the little surge from Sakura park was notable,
Hehee, I'd almost forgotten about the whole Sakura Park thing. Did that actually make it in-game? I've been all over Millenium City, but I don't remember seeing it.

[LordDave]

Fair enough... I was speculating three weeks - either way it would be great - I'm sure it's not gonna be easy to get us in.

Know if we could get Cryptic to give us an ESTIMATED schedule, it would be nice. Perhaps they haven't because they are optimistic about having some better numbers soon. Obviously they can't dump us on the servers at once. I was in CO Beta going way back, Even the little surge from Sakura park was notable, when they dumped the promoted testers (was a web magazine promo ) on us, all hell broke loose :eek:

I hope you are right :D

What if they gave everyone who has subs Access to the Beta Forums but not a Beta key? Think that would make things worse?

[naynayz]

What you payed for was a CO sub the beta was just a free add on. An if you only got it for the beta then you should have not payed for it.

I got a 6 mo sub too but I recognize that I bought the game, not the beta. I am trying to play CO but still dealing with grinding past 22 & 23. There have been a few repeatables that I could grind through but I don't do grinding, its annoying. I am willing to be patient because I don't want that same experience in STO. I just know the content is not there yet so I am being patient.

[Kinjiru]

What if they gave everyone who has subs Access to the Beta Forums but not a Beta key? Think that would make things worse?

That could be a two edged sword. On the one side, I like the idea of having access to the Beta boards because then I'd at least feel like I was in the loop, however partially. On the other side, giving access to the thousands of us who aren't actually testing could really muddy those boards with a lot of posts that have nothing to do with their (Cryptic's) specific focuses.

So anyway, I'll say that I'm in favor of something like that, but I can understand why they wouldn't do it.

[Kinjiru]

I got a 6 mo sub too but I recognize that I bought the game, not the beta. I am trying to play CO but still dealing with grinding past 22 & 23. There have been a few repeatables that I could grind through but I don't do grinding, its annoying. I am willing to be patient because I don't want that same experience in STO. I just know the content is not there yet so I am being patient.

Just a quick aside here, but I've taken three characters past that into the low 30's and I've never run out of missions. Specifically I just took my newest character to 26. Most of the time from 21 - 25 I was in Canada, then I just jumped to the Desert and started up the Stronghold missions. Never ran out of missions, and it only took me like 4 days. (At 2 - 3 hours per day, tops.) The number of missions does get lower once you hit Monster Island, but still, I haven't run out, there just aren't as many.

I'd suggest using the crime computer, just in case you missed some of the quest chain starters.

Sorry about the off topic, but this is something that's been confusing me for a while.

[Zandtar]

Your argument is circular and consists of only insults.

They promoted a product that included Closed Beta. This isn't Rocket Science

Probably be more convincing if you talked about the issue instead of talking about me.

Actually his analogy makes more sense then some of the ones being posted. Those who seem convinced they are a victim haven't done anything but try to make irrelevant comparisons in hopes to try to bolster their misguided belief in being portrayed as the victim.

As for the insults, I suspect they're probably out of frustration in trying to discuss things logically with some who have shoved their fingers in their ears, and just espouse mindless blather about how they're entitled to something that was never promised to them.

At work, I refer to it as 'shouting at the wall of stupid'.

[KO_Gilligan]

Actually his analogy makes more sense then some of the ones being posted. Those who seem convinced they are a victim haven't done anything but try to make irrelevant comparisons in hopes to try to bolster their misguided belief in being portrayed as the victim.

As for the insults, I suspect they're probably out of frustration in trying to discuss things logically with some who have shoved their fingers in their ears, and just espouse mindless blather about how they're entitled to something that was never promised to them.

At work, I refer to it as 'shouting at the wall of stupid'.

Perhaps. I see this on both sides.

In fact, as far as picking sides go, I'm sticking up for the side that needs to tone it down :eek:

[KO_Gilligan]

What if they gave everyone who has subs Access to the Beta Forums but not a Beta key? Think that would make things worse?

I'm scared of my group :p

Could make it worse, yes

[Kirby]

Actually his analogy makes more sense then some of the ones being posted. Those who seem convinced they are a victim haven't done anything but try to make irrelevant comparisons in hopes to try to bolster their misguided belief in being portrayed as the victim.

As for the insults, I suspect they're probably out of frustration in trying to discuss things logically with some who have shoved their fingers in their ears, and just espouse mindless blather about how they're entitled to something that was never promised to them.

At work, I refer to it as 'shouting at the wall of stupid'.Thank you. And your assessment is very accurate. In fact, I've hit the point where I've used the annoying all caps, which is right before I start telling someone off, which I've told myself I won't do online any more.

In your work parlance, I'm not going to be "shouting at the wall of stupid" any more an will unsubscribe to this thread. You can only tell someone 2+2 =/= 5 so many times.

/unsubscribe

[Zandtar]

Perhaps. I see this on both sides.

In fact, as far as picking sides go, I'm sticking up for the side that needs to tone it down :eek:

Understood. :)

Now I will admit that offering guaranteed closed beta spots with a paid 'anything' is probably not the best things they could have done. In fact, it could go down as one of the classic "don't do this" in regards to online games development. Personally, if I were in charge, I wouldn't have done it. The potential for problems was just too obvious.

But, who knows how Atari operates, and what internal politics came into play. For all we know, some muckety muck in Marketing cooked up the idea, and forced the developers to do it. As the Dilbert comic strip so poignantly points out, corporations can make the most foolhardy decisions that leaves everyone scratching their heads.

[KO_Gilligan]

Understood. :)

Now I will admit that offering guaranteed closed beta spots with a paid 'anything' is probably not the best things they could have done. In fact, it could go down as one of the classic "don't do this" in regards to online games development. Personally, if I were in charge, I wouldn't have done it. The potential for problems was just too obvious.

But, who knows how Atari operates, and what internal politics came into play. For all we know, some muckety muck in Marketing cooked up the idea, and forced the developers to do it. As the Dilbert comic strip so poignantly points out, corporations can make the most foolhardy decisions that leaves everyone scratching their heads.

I'm a bit of a purist regarding this sort of thing. Microtransactions are OK, selling demos is not - that sort of thing. I don't question the selling of Beta spots as doing beta testing harm or causing these problems. I feel the potential for problems was magnified but not eminant. My reasons are philisophical.

When Sony decided to offer a Demo a day early for Killzone 2 pre-orders, I thought it was arrogant, ignorant, and disrespectful. Selling a demo is selling a demo, no matter how you spin it.

So I disagreed with this Beta Offer, but it was one of those problems I feel has it's roots in violating tradition and customer loyalty.

Does that make sense?

[JackOfDiamond]

To those that bought a CO 6 Month, or Life Membership..... Go play CO. :D

This makes me giggle.

Servers have been up and down since yesterday.

[Sandmanjw]

Actually his analogy makes more sense then some of the ones being posted. Those who seem convinced they are a victim haven't done anything but try to make irrelevant comparisons in hopes to try to bolster their misguided belief in being portrayed as the victim.

As for the insults, I suspect they're probably out of frustration in trying to discuss things logically with some who have shoved their fingers in their ears, and just espouse mindless blather about how they're entitled to something that was never promised to them.

At work, I refer to it as 'shouting at the wall of stupid'.

Just a question? If we were not promised something then why have this guy apologize?

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?p=1302936#post1302936

Here's how it is:

I was incorrect when stating that all 6 month/Lifetime subs would be let in before anyone else.

That is the ONLY incorrect information you were given. 6 month/Lifetime subs still have guaranteed access to the beta. We never gave a timeframe (aside from my incorrect statement) for when this would happen. Lifetime and 6 Month players will be consistently let in until they are all in the beta. Alongside, we'll be accepting a few regular applicants, as well as contest winners, friends & family, etc.

I apologize for misleading folks, but as was previously pointed out, my statement was not even made until after the offers were over with. No one here was misled into purchasing a subscription based on the assumption that you'd be the first one into beta, unless you made that assumption up in your head to begin with.

If you have any other questions or comments about STO, I urge you to go over to the STO forums and discuss things there. Stormshade has already posted some comments about this, and will continue to keep everyone updated as beta continues.
__________________
"I meant what I said, and I said what I meant. An elephant's faithful, one hundred percent." - Horton the Elephant

So yes assumptions were made on purchase. But they were reinforced by a Cryptic employee.

So we have been told now we must wait. Fine, but i am still waiting on them to tell me how long that wait will be. If we are talking a month or 2 then i want a refund.

Some of this stuff was posted during the 30 days some people had to cancel. That we would be first in. So some stayed and did not cancel. Now this is no longer true.

As i said before Cryptic made this mess and should be working to clean it up. And to me that means let me know how long i have to wait, and if i think that is too long let me cancel now.

And yes, for the record i put in a ticket asking for info on same day as the above apology was issued and still have not heard anything back.

All this was handled very badly by Cryptic. They knew very well how many people had bought beta access. And that there was no way that they could possibly invite them all at once. So instead of extending their alpha till they could ,they go ahead and announce it anyways.

Selling Beta spots, and yes they did do that, and then not being prepared to handle them all ,was not the fault of the people that paid.

Assumptions were made on both sides it seems to me. But we have one that paid money and one that took the money. Clearly it should fall on to the side that got the money to work the hardest to fix the issue.

And to me ,just saying we misspoke and you will eventually get in, is not enough for me.

[KO_Gilligan]

So yes assumptions were made on purchase. But they were reinforced by a Cryptic employee.

So we have been told now we must wait. Fine, but i am still waiting on them to tell me how long that wait will be. If we are talking a month or 2 then i want a refund.

Some of this stuff was posted during the 30 days some people had to cancel. That we would be first in. So some stayed and did not cancel. Now this is no longer true.

As i said before Cryptic made this mess and should be working to clean it up. And to me that means let me know how long i have to wait, and if i think that is too long let me cancel now.

And yes, for the record i put in a ticket asking for info on same day as the above apology was issued and still have not heard anything back.

All this was handled very badly by Cryptic. They knew very well how many people had bought beta access. And that there was no way that they could possibly invite them all at once. So instead of extending their alpha till they could ,they go ahead and announce it anyways.

Selling Beta spots, and yes they did do that, and then not being prepared to handle them all ,was not the fault of the people that paid.

Assumptions were made on both sides it seems to me. But we have one that paid money and one that took the money. Clearly it should fall on to the side that got the money to work the hardest to fix the issue.

And to me ,just saying we misspoke and you will eventually get in, is not enough for me.

The whole refunds being allowed, and they were still talking about preferred access at the time thing, is just another nail against Cryptic.

Now will they offer refunds again? :eek:

Well I like CO. No refund for me thanks.

But if they do offer it, it will be a bruise that no other game that I know of has ever had to keep re-living.
I honestly hope no such thing happens.

This is why I said throw us all on a borked server until it dies.

Damn the Torpedos

[Jaxston]

If subscribers are not in with the first week or two then I would like a refund.....all $200.

:mad:

[Fdwizard]

Not really it is very non commital .....why would they want to commit the same faux pah again so they are deliberatily dodging the hard questions....:mad::mad::mad:

Sort of reminds me of a video interview I saw with Roper where the guy asks him what they're doing to make CO different, so it's not a grind fest like other games. Instead of answering the question, he prattles on about the character creator for 15 minutes.

I also don't know why 'anyone' is surprised by this whole 'mess'. Cryptic is very good at creating messes, odds are, judging by thier other games, that the servers they have for STO are probably just as crappy and all they can fit on there are a hundred or so people 'maybe'. I find it amusing that people defend CO and it's server issues by saying it's a 'new' game, when CoH still has issues and it's 5 or 6 years old, there's not many playing it and it's servers still have issues. So, people complaining about not getting in, don't, odds are you wouldn't even be able to play 90% of the time and you'd just be frustraited as hell.

[SenshiBat]

The whole refunds being allowed, and they were still talking about preferred access at the time thing, is just another nail against Cryptic.

Now will they offer refunds again? :eek:

Well I like CO. No refund for me thanks.

But if they do offer it, it will be a bruise that no other game that I know of has ever had to keep re-living.
I honestly hope no such thing happens.

This is why I said throw us all on a borked server until it dies.

Damn the Torpedoes

Credit towards the next purchase Swag server time and on-line POS.. these would be excellent ways of returning to the Community that was here before 80% of Los Gatos staff was hired.. Just an optional thought form the .. All this and no Bug reports for Sassy Saloon Girls out of Step.. Gotta Love this place..

Yes we Still appreciate Cryptic we do.. But its tough Love day.. Sorry.

[Warspawn]

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?p=1302936#post1302936


I was incorrect when stating that all 6 month/Lifetime subs would be let in before anyone else.

That is the ONLY incorrect information you were given...


One of the CO reps (Daeke) said that lifetime/6-month subs would be first to be invited to closed beta. One of the reasons given for the limited number of lifetime/6-month subs was because of their guaranteed acces to the first part of closed beta.

Later on, in October, this was corrected to say that those subscriptions were not guaranteed to be in the first set of invites, this was after the first 'free month' period associated with the game, and past the point where one could ask for a refund.

Now, I'm not saying I want a refund, nor am in a huge hurry to be among the first to test STO. What I am saying, is that in most businesses, if a rep of a company says something, the company makes darn sure it comes through on a promise given in its name. I know that if I'm selling some equipment to a contractor for $45,000 to be delivered in September and he writes a check for it, then we're going to sell it to him for that, and deliver it on time. Because that was the agreement, not "well, it'll be around $45k and we'll get it to you sometime in the fall or early winter".

If subscribers are not in with the first week or two then I would like a refund.....all $200.

:mad:

I have a pair of them, one for me and one for my wife. $400 worth. It would be nice to see at least an offer for a refund for the lifetime/6-month subscribers if they aren't invited during the first part of open beta. Even if folks have no intention of asking for the refund. As I tried to illustrate in the anology above, if I promised something at a certain time/price and the company was unable to deliver, then there would be some sort of attempt at compensation.

[dagger9066]

So marketing decided to milk hardcore fans for cash. That doesn't mean production has to live with the consequences. The purpose of beta testing is work out the bugs in the game, not letting certain people play first. If some unpaid person have a rare OS build and system specs that would reveal bugs that wouldn't appear in average systems, that person will and should have priority over bundle buyers with average machines that would contribute little to bug testing.

[printcraftsman]

One of the CO reps (Daeke) said that lifetime/6-month subs would be first to be invited to closed beta. One of the reasons given for the limited number of lifetime/6-month subs was because of their guaranteed acces to the first part of closed beta.

Later on, in October, this was corrected to say that those subscriptions were not guaranteed to be in the first set of invites, this was after the first 'free month' period associated with the game, and past the point where one could ask for a refund.

Now, I'm not saying I want a refund, nor am in a huge hurry to be among the first to test STO. What I am saying, is that in most businesses, if a rep of a company says something, the company makes darn sure it comes through on a promise given in its name. I know that if I'm selling some equipment to a contractor for $45,000 to be delivered in September and he writes a check for it, then we're going to sell it to him for that, and deliver it on time. Because that was the agreement, not "well, it'll be around $45k and we'll get it to you sometime in the fall or early winter".



I have a pair of them, one for me and one for my wife. $400 worth. It would be nice to see at least an offer for a refund for the lifetime/6-month subscribers if they aren't invited during the first part of open beta. Even if folks have no intention of asking for the refund. As I tried to illustrate in the anology above, if I promised something at a certain time/price and the company was unable to deliver, then there would be some sort of attempt at compensation.

I agree with everything you said. I'm a $200 lifer and I understand I may not be in first but I didn't pay that money to be in middle or last and what don't like is Cryptic nonchalant attitude and the we will get to you sometime and thanks again for paying my salary and who cares if you are my client because I got your money. a timeline (ish) would be nice and compensation of a cool BO pet would be nice.

[printcraftsman]

how does it make no sense?

people are pulling up the argument, that making assumptions is flawed. well assuming that they meant limited access from their sales page, is also a flawed assumption... so neither argument is valid, yet people keep using one or the other...

all the sales page said, you buy access to closed beta.

so neither argument can be used.

what you can do, is compare to similar sales.

like imagine you bought access to a party. the party starts at 1800 hours and ends at 0200 hours.
yet your ticket only says, access to said party. so when you show up at 1900 hours, you are told that you might get in later that evening. no deadline. you don't know whether you get in at 2000 or at 0130. yet according to the assumption that as long as they let you into the beta even 1 hour before open beta, then you still get what you paid for. would you think that same way if you only got to enjoy 30 mins of said party, even though you paid the same as everyone else that has been inside and having fun all night?


No I would not...nice analogy

[printcraftsman]

This is a great analogy. People also forget how much we talked about the preferential treatment for Beta purchasers. There was never any question at the time regarding "how much" beta we would get. Why was it not debated? I can tell you why, because they sold "access to the Beta"....

to the point in which I speculated they would have pre-beta so they could ramp this fiasco up.

I seen it coming, and I was wrong about what they would do...

Instead they make wee right into the wind. :o

and it's advertised that Closed Beta has started - even putting their hands on their hips and declaring "yup, we're letting in non-subscribers now" - of course subscribers have some kind of priority... HUH?

with no definitive word regarding forecasted timeframes for purchasers who daily have a greater and greater complaint. A valid complaint.

Seems as if people have short memories and even shorter attention spans. Remember the September 1 issue? The wipe of posts regarding it? The discovery of altered promotion material?

Ha... I'd like to not have that NDA right up until the last Lifetime purchaser - make mine last - Seriously Cryptic, I want to sit right here and remind people about this deal, until we all make it in. :D


You ara a true master of the written language. You keep saying the things I just can't put into word. Thanks for all your hard work....We who bought lifer and 6fer subs do appreciaite it.

[printcraftsman]

I have read them... Well maybe not all of them... :)

I cirtainly hope sooner rather than later. I will give it a month into CB before I get too itchy. They will likely invite every week, increasing the number of invites each time. They will probably burn through the CO subs in a month. But this is strictly speculation. I have no idea really. I can only hope.



Agreed. We know that progress is being made, and that puts us all a little closer to playing the game. The worst part of the wait for me was not knowing when beta would start.

a month in to closed beta before you get itchy. I want as much time to be a game tester. I paid $200 to be a game tester that other people usually get paid to do.

[printcraftsman]

Fair enough... I was speculating three weeks - either way it would be great - I'm sure it's not gonna be easy to get us in.

Know if we could get Cryptic to give us an ESTIMATED schedule, it would be nice. Perhaps they haven't because they are optimistic about having some better numbers soon. Obviously they can't dump us on the servers at once. I was in CO Beta going way back, Even the little surge from Sakura park was notable, when they dumped the promoted testers (was a web magazine promo ) on us, all hell broke loose :eek:

I hope you are right :D


An estimated timeline with the word (ish) behind it would be great. I think most people would be understand if we could get a better straight forward answer from cyptic.....even if they don't hit the mark exactly most Trekkies that paid would be understand and give some latitude. Cryptics silence on this matter is however deafening and leading to a lot of speculation and this thing is start to catch fire here and other game forums...cryptic should attempt to put a fire break soon or it could get more out of control as people who paid money start to trickle into the forums.

[printcraftsman]

I got a 6 mo sub too but I recognize that I bought the game, not the beta. I am trying to play CO but still dealing with grinding past 22 & 23. There have been a few repeatables that I could grind through but I don't do grinding, its annoying. I am willing to be patient because I don't want that same experience in STO. I just know the content is not there yet so I am being patient.

You actually bought both even if one is an incentive. All incentives become part of the contract that was made when money changed hands.

[Elboulevardo]

know what i love about the 6ers and lifers who are complaining about not being in first or in as soon as they would like? its the fact that the crybaby mentality is driven by the selfishness that would doom this game to failure if they were all added in first.

think for a second

most (i cannot say all but i have my suspicion) i would guess bought the CO sub for the beta access key so they could get in to PLAY the game first...key word...PLAY the game...unfortunately, for a beta test to be successful, they need people to TEST the game, and report on errors

could you imagine if all the greedy selfish gimme gimme gimme CO subs got into this beta test first wave? i bet the Devs would be ripping out their hair because their database of reported errors would be filled with comments like

"FIRST pvp kill...woot"
"where's my Tier 5 shipz"
"why cant i join my friend's ship? i think that's a bug"
"i just pwnd a klingon"
"FIRST to Admiral, im so leetsauce"

these people need to settle (not all of yous, just those who are incessently whining and finding self-serving reasons to continue whining)

great job with the OP, they should make a sledgehammer out of your post and start beating people with it LOL :)

[printcraftsman]

Understood. :)

Now I will admit that offering guaranteed closed beta spots with a paid 'anything' is probably not the best things they could have done. In fact, it could go down as one of the classic "don't do this" in regards to online games development. Personally, if I were in charge, I wouldn't have done it. The potential for problems was just too obvious.

But, who knows how Atari operates, and what internal politics came into play. For all we know, some muckety muck in Marketing cooked up the idea, and forced the developers to do it. As the Dilbert comic strip so poignantly points out, corporations can make the most foolhardy decisions that leaves everyone scratching their heads.

Do you remember the Bill Roper $200 Hellgate London Scam.....I bet he was one of the muckety mucks they listened to. :D:D:D:

[printcraftsman]

The whole refunds being allowed, and they were still talking about preferred access at the time thing, is just another nail against Cryptic.

Now will they offer refunds again? :eek:

Well I like CO. No refund for me thanks.

But if they do offer it, it will be a bruise that no other game that I know of has ever had to keep re-living.
I honestly hope no such thing happens.

This is why I said throw us all on a borked server until it dies.

Damn the Torpedos

For Ferengies the first rule of acquisition is never give the money back...LOL;)

[printcraftsman]

Sort of reminds me of a video interview I saw with Roper where the guy asks him what they're doing to make CO different, so it's not a grind fest like other games. Instead of answering the question, he prattles on about the character creator for 15 minutes.

I also don't know why 'anyone' is surprised by this whole 'mess'. Cryptic is very good at creating messes, odds are, judging by thier other games, that the servers they have for STO are probably just as crappy and all they can fit on there are a hundred or so people 'maybe'. I find it amusing that people defend CO and it's server issues by saying it's a 'new' game, when CoH still has issues and it's 5 or 6 years old, there's not many playing it and it's servers still have issues. So, people complaining about not getting in, don't, odds are you wouldn't even be able to play 90% of the time and you'd just be frustraited as hell.

First thanks for quoting me and second Remember Bill Roper's ( Now working for Cryptic for CO) $200 lifetime sub for Hellgate London Scam....You are probably having flashback also.

[printcraftsman]

Credit towards the next purchase Swag server time and on-line POS.. these would be excellent ways of returning to the Community that was here before 80% of Los Gatos staff was hired.. Just an optional thought form the .. All this and no Bug reports for Sassy Saloon Girls out of Step.. Gotta Love this place..

Yes we Still appreciate Cryptic we do.. But its tough Love day.. Sorry.

What Cryptic continues to fail to do with its silence is understand that Star Trek IP was made by its fans. We ...because of loyalty to the brand actually gave cryptic work for the last 2 years because without us there would be no Star Trek game....Gene is probably looking down from the stars and shaking his head.

[printcraftsman]

So marketing decided to milk hardcore fans for cash. That doesn't mean production has to live with the consequences. The purpose of beta testing is work out the bugs in the game, not letting certain people play first. If some unpaid person have a rare OS build and system specs that would reveal bugs that wouldn't appear in average systems, that person will and should have priority over bundle buyers with average machines that would contribute little to bug testing.

I'm ready right now to be a Game Tester and I am anxious to help make history here by finding all the bugs and to help make the first day of open gameplay the best ever in Cryptic history.

[Thoram]

funny read.

I am one of those that have a 6 month sub to CO and a closed beta access. (I am not in the beta at this point, but I am sure my time will come)

If all the people that was promised a closed beta access got in on the same day, the server wouldnt be able to handle the load. so none would be able to get in. Not to mention getting the client would probably clog up the system for everyone. (Dont know how the beta client will be accessed)

To use the anology some of you are posting, lets go with the party one. You have a ticket that tells you, that you get access to this party. So did about 500 others. Now. if everyone was given acces at the same time, they would clog up the door. Those that got there first would be trampled by those in the back, pushing to get in.

It wouldnt be very safe, and would only lead to injuries. And I doubt the locale was allowed to bring in so many people at once, due to fire safety codes. Eventually, once the first throng of people have made it past the coat area and the first room, been given time to spread out, they will let the next group in.

I know it is a bad anology, but it is one that others have used.

I know I get in the closed beta at some point. Maybe within a month, maybe within two. Do I feel cheated that I didnt get in on the first run? Not at all. Is STO the only thing that makes me get up in the morning? Nope. I got other things to keep me busy. Granted I will shift my priorities when I do get into the CB.

I could ask you all that feel cheated to relax and take a deep breath, but if the other posters that have posted here, havent' been able to, I know I wont.

[Loekii]

One of the CO reps (Daeke) said that lifetime/6-month subs would be first to be invited to closed beta. One of the reasons given for the limited number of lifetime/6-month subs was because of their guaranteed acces to the first part of closed beta.

Later on, in October, this was corrected to say that those subscriptions were not guaranteed to be in the first set of invites, this was after the first 'free month' period associated with the game, and past the point where one could ask for a refund.

Now, I'm not saying I want a refund, nor am in a huge hurry to be among the first to test STO. What I am saying, is that in most businesses, if a rep of a company says something, the company makes darn sure it comes through on a promise given in its name. I know that if I'm selling some equipment to a contractor for $45,000 to be delivered in September and he writes a check for it, then we're going to sell it to him for that, and deliver it on time. Because that was the agreement, not "well, it'll be around $45k and we'll get it to you sometime in the fall or early winter".


The thing is that Daeke's comment was made AFTER the close of the sales of the CO Subs.

People did not buy the Subs because of Daeke's comments. All his comment did was get people's hopes up. And his comment was not a line in an agreement. It wasn't even a 'handshake'. It was an 'oh I think your order is here now.....oh wait I was mistaken.

Add to this that they were not selling Beta, but rather selling CO subscriptions, which you are technically already using.

[printcraftsman]

The thing is that Daeke's comment was made AFTER the close of the sales of the CO Subs.

People did not buy the Subs because of Daeke's comments. All his comment did was get people's hopes up. And his comment was not a line in an agreement. It wasn't even a 'handshake'. It was an 'oh I think your order is here now.....oh wait I was mistaken.

Add to this that they were not selling Beta, but rather selling CO subscriptions, which you are technically already using.

Are you an UNDERCOVER CRYPTIC EMPLOYEE????? I have been reading your posts and you sure sound like you are. Understanding is all us lifers and 6fer are asking.

[Jaxston]

Are you an UNDERCOVER CRYPTIC EMPLOYEE????? I have been reading your posts and you sure sound like you are. Understanding is all us lifers and 6fer are asking.

NO Loekii is in actual fact ............... borg :eek:

[curtst]

I paid $200 to be a game tester...

No you paid $200 for a lifetime sub to CO.

[SenshiBat]

I'm a bit of a purist regarding this sort of thing. Micro Transactions are OK, selling demos is not - that sort of thing. I don't question the selling of Beta spots as doing beta testing harm or causing these problems. I feel the potential for problems was magnified but not eminant. My reasons are philosophical.

When Sony decided to offer a Demo a day early for Killzone 2 pre-orders, I thought it was arrogant, ignorant, and disrespectful. Selling a demo is selling a demo, no matter how you spin it.

So I disagreed with this Beta Offer, but it was one of those problems I feel has it's roots in violating tradition and customer loyalty.

Does that make sense?

Perfectly. .That's my feeling on this issue. We need consistency in contest rules or any other Official Corporate statement also. The Official Company Statement Fact Was posted by a REp of the Company on the company site Promising.. Closed not Open Beta access.. Fact.
No "scapegoating" fair reasonable organization and implementations or we vote with our checks books..

Fact: People on the outside don't like it , human nature its the degree of why that needs review. If its a simple civil agreement or compact party to party and not a bottle of wine and a prom date the whole dynamic changes.

We just expect word as bond that's how we judge people in corn country.. bag of seeds handshake..horse look at the teeth. Simple.


or mis dineros no para usted
puede usted ahora sentirme
[my money is not for you or can you feel me ]

[ZeframCochrane]

Are you an UNDERCOVER CRYPTIC EMPLOYEE????? I have been reading your posts and you sure sound like you are. Understanding is all us lifers and 6fer are asking.

I thought you were asking for immediate access to the closed beta.

[lordmordane]

No you paid $200 for a lifetime sub to CO.

and those sexy mirror universe uniforms!

;)

[sylvermane64]

Are you an UNDERCOVER CRYPTIC EMPLOYEE????? I have been reading your posts and you sure sound like you are. Understanding is all us lifers and 6fer are asking.

Jesus Gemini, you thought I was a Cryptic employee too. Does that mean 'everyone' that posts against you is a Cryptic employee? Your borderline paranoid now.

I told you yesterday, go outside and get some air. Your whining and moaning isn't going to help you in the slightest.

[aircool]

So marketing decided to milk hardcore fans for cash. That doesn't mean production has to live with the consequences. The purpose of beta testing is work out the bugs in the game, not letting certain people play first. If some unpaid person have a rare OS build and system specs that would reveal bugs that wouldn't appear in average systems, that person will and should have priority over bundle buyers with average machines that would contribute little to bug testing.

Yep. I'd rather have some hard working, number crunching, bug hunting dedicated tester in the closed beta than someone who bought a 6 Month sub to CO purely for access to the closed beta. Why? Because the people chosen for the the early rounds of the closed beta will be the sort of people that Cryptic need to whip the game into shape.

Sure, I thought it would be nice to get into the closed beta for STO, but that's not why I purchased a lifetime sub for CO. A one off fee that costs about the same as an 18 month sub (max) means that I can play the game on and off for as long as I want. My Lotro liefetime sub has already paid for itself, even though I don't play it with any regularity. Sometimes I'm really into it for a few weeks, then I move onto something else, then get into it for a few weeks again etc...

I really wish that this topic was hung out to dry. The bottom line is that Cryptic can pretty much change their minds about how and when you get closed beta access.

And you know what? The last person I'd choose to join the closed beta is someone who hasn't got the patience to wait and thinks that the world owes them something. If you haven't got the patience to wait, you're going to make a bloody awful beta tester.

[Zandtar]

I'm a bit of a purist regarding this sort of thing. Microtransactions are OK, selling demos is not - that sort of thing. I don't question the selling of Beta spots as doing beta testing harm or causing these problems. I feel the potential for problems was magnified but not eminant. My reasons are philisophical.

When Sony decided to offer a Demo a day early for Killzone 2 pre-orders, I thought it was arrogant, ignorant, and disrespectful. Selling a demo is selling a demo, no matter how you spin it.

So I disagreed with this Beta Offer, but it was one of those problems I feel has it's roots in violating tradition and customer loyalty.

Does that make sense?

I can agree with some of the things. I have no problem with micro-transactions as well. Oh, and they did some things I also disagree with, such as turning around and offering 'exclusive' items, in-game, etc. I think that is a pretty good slap in the customers face as well, especially the early on customers who were the ones that got the game off the ground.

As for selling access to Beta, I think it was one of the more foolish, or most ingenious things I had heard of. It can be foolish, if it wasn't prepared for properly, and mishandled. Unfortunately, that seems to be what this is looking like so far. The problems being experienced now should have been anticipated back when the notion was cooked up, as most intelligent people could see it as a possibility. Whoever handled this for Cryptic really dropped the ball in regards to PR.

Or, it could be one of the most ingenious marketing methods done so far. Okay, you have to weather the storm of complaints from some. But, I don't know the bottom line of income Cryptic got at the time from just this promotion. Are the profits generated from the promotion enough to out weigh any negative impact from the complaints? If so, then they made a profit. I might not agree with that methodology but I can understand it. It works for Microsoft.

In other threads I've seen links where a Champions Online rep made statements implying one thing about the 'when' for the beta invites for the subscription purchasers, and then was later redacted. But only after the purchases were made. In that respect I do think a refund should be seriously considered by Cryptic. A refund for the subscription paid for, minus any month's of activity the user logged onto CO. But I would only support that notion because there is some evidence to show official Cryptic representatives misrepresented (probably unintentional) a product. So, if a person paid $200 for the subscription, and never logged onto CO, then I think a $200 refund should be considered. If they logged onto the game at any point for a monthly billing cycle, that month should be deducted from the refund. It would be a nice gesture on Cryptic's part in an effort to smooth over their PR with their player base. However, legally I don't think they'd have to. After all, when was the last time the free toy in a box of cereal ever worked like it does on the commercials?

However, on the other hand, I can also see this from the technical side of things. That being this beta subscription was not the advertised product, but rather a bonus. Thus, the consumer was actually buying the subscription as the product, and the bonus of the beta offer was 'free'. Sure, in the minds of some they were not buying the subscription, but technically they were. And it doesn't change, if they only wanted the bonus item. The product offered for sale was a subscription to CO, and the product was delivered. The bonus item, which was no additional charge, is where the sticking point is. And I would strongly suspect that, technically, that is covered by the EULA that comes with the CO subscription.

Thus, I can see, and understand both sides of the issue. From an emotional aspect, I can certainly see why some people might feel like they got a bait-and-switch on the bonus item details. However I also would only support that point of view for a very select few, as a good number of complainers did not point the statement of the Cyrptic rep out, until after it had been publicized by others. Thus, I would suspect the foundation and motivations of their initial complaint. On the other hand, technically they are getting exactly what they paid for. The subscription that was the product purchased remains unaltered (to my knowledge) and is functioning as advertised. What they 'wanted' doesn't change the fact that the product being offered for sale was the subscription to CO, nothing else. The promise of a spot in closed beta still remains a free bonus, that was never sold as a product.

Personally, I think no refunds will come, and no matter what level of complaining is done, it will just move forward. I think the ones screaming about it now, will get placated when their beta invites eventually arrive and they'll just 'disappear' from the main forums. In other words, it will be a short period of grumbling and choppy water, but it will blow over. Especially since there's what, 5 months between now and the end of Q1, 2010? That's a lot of beta time. Even not getting an invite for the first month still leaves the potential of 4 months. And once everyone's feathers have been smoothed over, the whole thing will be just another forum row in the rear view mirror.

I think there's a couple of things to take away from this. First, always read the contracts you agree to. Signing "I agree" and then later claiming "I didn't know" will not stand up. Secondly, remember the adage "Buyer beware". The consumer has a responsibility to educate themselves on the items they're going to spend money on. Just like all the posts I've seen about people rushing out to pre-order the game from sites, before any official announcement has been made by the vendor. I can just see the complaints that are going to be coming now. Third, the customer is not always right. Just because a person purchased a product does not mean they get to behave out of socially accepted norms should they have an issue with the product.

If it were my company, I would never offer paid positions to an actual closed beta. Personally, I question the actual motivations of the individuals who would purchase such a thing, and complain about not being able to be "first". I suspect a good number of them are the "I wanna play first" crowd, to lord over other people. Of course the fact actual money changed hands does amplify this. But I don't think I've seen such a sense of entitlement over a beta TEST, in all the beta tests I have been in. And I honestly hope Cryptic has contingency plans in place to ensure actual testing gets done.

Edited addition:
Just one small update after reading another thread and seeing this post:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=875916#post875916
If that time line is correct, then that pretty much negates any sort of "we were lied to" argument the lifetime subscription people have.

[sylvermane64]

I suspect a good number of them are the "I wanna play first" crowd, to lord over other people. Of course the fact actual money changed hands does amplify this. But I don't think I've seen such a sense of entitlement over a beta TEST, in all the beta tests I have been in. And I honestly hope Cryptic has contingency plans in place to ensure actual testing gets done.

Best Quote Ever!! Tip o' the hat to you Zandtar

[Shatterhand]

Wow, really? We're still on this? Four days after closed beta started and people are still whinging over this...amazing.

All this boils down to is a bunch of people bellyaching about how they're not able to get into beta IMMEDIATELY. They want it NOW; they're the Veruca Salt of the STO community, and they're going to twist and pull at and rework and misinterpret every quote from every Cryptic developer possible to prove that they are right and Cryptic Studios is the Mean Ol' Big Bad. And don't bother trying to interject any of that troublesome "logic", "reason" or "rationality" into any of their threads, because you'll either be completely ignored by way of the forum equivalent of plugging one's ears and screaming "LALALALALALA I can't hear you", or they'll slap a Cryptic dev's quote on their post and say, "See? When you read it THIS way, it says we should get what we want!"

Just wait until they finally get their key and they find out they don't get to play 24/7. Hoooo boy; I can't WAIT to see what Cryptic dev's statements they take out of context and cry "BETRAYED!!!" on for THAT situation.

[Shatterhand]

Yep. I'd rather have some hard working, number crunching, bug hunting dedicated tester in the closed beta than someone who bought a 6 Month sub to CO purely for access to the closed beta. Why? Because the people chosen for the the early rounds of the closed beta will be the sort of people that Cryptic need to whip the game into shape.

And you know what? The last person I'd choose to join the closed beta is someone who hasn't got the patience to wait and thinks that the world owes them something. If you haven't got the patience to wait, you're going to make a bloody awful beta tester.

I don't think it's necessarily true that people who had the pre-order and want to get in now wouldn't be able to test effectively, but the utter lack of patience is definitely disconcerting. As I said in my other post, I can only imagine the complaints we'll see once these people FINALLY get their keys, only to find out that closed beta doesn't equal 24/7 access. Gird your loins, folks; it's going to get even uglier then.

[Minovacy]

A few you fail to realize that alpha and beta versions and testing cycles are nothing like what they used to be when companies were more interactive with the community. Does a 6 month or lifer sub mean someone isn't a good tester? I don't have a clue, but I have been in numerous alpha test cycles over the years since "96". Doesn't make me a god or even a good tester anymore, because it isn't as personal of a process as it used to be. They merely look for bugs in most cases or just totally disregard what your input is anyway because they have a separate direction they are heavily focused on.
The gaming communities are watered down compared to experienced users being the clients more so in the dawn of mmos. We really can't blame them either for not being overly attentive to every suggestion. If they tried to take to heart and focus on all the drivel produced by the most vocal, well then I'd love to be their psychiatrist making the income he'd receive.
So be angry if you feel you have the right, but I'll sit here waiting with a speculative eye on the process for when my call is sounded.

[sylvermane64]

As I said in my other post, I can only imagine the complaints we'll see once these people FINALLY get their keys, only to find out that closed beta doesn't equal 24/7 access. Gird your loins, folks; it's going to get even uglier then.

O...my....god. I didn't even think about that one.

I can already hear Gemini now...."WHAT? You mean I got into Beta and I don't get to test (read-play) 24/7, or as long as I WANT!!!! That's it! I'm calling the President!!!"

:P

[Elboulevardo]

Wow, really? We're still on this? Four days after closed beta started and people are still whinging over this...amazing.

All this boils down to is a bunch of people bellyaching about how they're not able to get into beta IMMEDIATELY. They want it NOW; they're the Veruca Salt of the STO community, and they're going to twist and pull at and rework and misinterpret every quote from every Cryptic developer possible to prove that they are right and Cryptic Studios is the Mean Ol' Big Bad. And don't bother trying to interject any of that troublesome "logic", "reason" or "rationality" into any of their threads, because you'll either be completely ignored by way of the forum equivalent of plugging one's ears and screaming "LALALALALALA I can't hear you", or they'll slap a Cryptic dev's quote on their post and say, "See? When you read it THIS way, it says we should get what we want!"

Just wait until they finally get their key and they find out they don't get to play 24/7. Hoooo boy; I can't WAIT to see what Cryptic dev's statements they take out of context and cry "BETRAYED!!!" on for THAT situation.

another well laid out interpretation of what's going down with the CO 6ers/Lifers...im sure it doesnt speak for ALL of them (id like to think at least some are actually eager to test the game and report bugs, etc) but i bet it applies to most...just my opinion before anyone chimes in with a "how dare you speak for me" post..lol

[Zandtar]

Just a small adjustment to my previous statements, after looking through another thread, and seeing this posted time line of events:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=875916#post875916

If this time line is factual, then I really can't have much sympathy for the people who bought the lifetime subscription's and are complaining now. If the time line is factual, then the statement people are claiming that misled them into purchasing the subscription was made _after_ the ability to purchase was closed.

In addition it also appears there was a period of a 'no questions asked' refund, after the correction was made. Something that any of the now-complainers could have taken advantage of.

If the time line is factual, then IMO, Cryptic owes these complainers _nothing_.

[vrgadin]

well yeh cryptic dosent owe the special sub buyers anything, myself included. i was trying to decide on a payment plan for CO when the STO offer came up and it helped me decide on a bulk 6 month payment instead of month to month. im not expecting too much, its like ordering a hamburger and getting a free cheap toy, i really enjoy the hamburger, and this little toy is just a little extra treat! now if i get beta access 1 day before open, id be annoyed but still, i didnt pay the 100 dollars for STO beta imo that is free, i payed that money for CO.
To be completely honest im enjoying CO but its kinda a hold over game until STO and TOR are out. i like to leave the earth to do my fantasy gaming, so i AM feverishly waiting on beta invite, but i keep in mind what i actually paid for and it helps to remind me im not being cheated.

[zantars]

I know all about the beta invite wating game I've beta tested 16 games/expanisons so far and of them I've only been a first round draft pick six times. No now i sit here and wait for the Dev borg cube to come along and assimulate me ito there beta testing colloctive so i can start y new life as one of there beta testing drones. so do worry your time will come and you too will see the might beta testing borg cure come for you and take you away some day as i and many others do. so just rember Do whine it just makes the process take longer and it could even bump your name down lower on the list. Be paitet and they will come for you and take you into there colletive and then the adventure begins to boldy beta test where you have never beta tested before. Whining is futile you to will be assulmated when your time comes.


Lifetime Co Member and I will wait for the Borg to come bring me int beta testing

[printcraftsman]

No you paid $200 for a lifetime sub to CO.

And part of the contract was to be an STO Game Tester for closed beta. That still has not happened and cryptic is silent on the matter...They are hoping this will die down...I will bump these forums morning....noon...and night until I'm given an estemated goal of when they think all lifers and 6fers will be in....even just an estimate instead of "watch you inbox" and "you will get in when you get in".

[printcraftsman]

I thought you were asking for immediate access to the closed beta.

I want to know when they"THINK" I may get in...an estimated goal....

is it in a week..2 weeks...a month...2 months...2 weeks before open beta....the day before open beta....

I'm sorry I did not pay $200 for the lifer sub to be middle and last and from what I read neither has a majority of the people who paid money to be a game tester have said on these forums.

[printcraftsman]

Jesus Gemini, you thought I was a Cryptic employee too. Does that mean 'everyone' that posts against you is a Cryptic employee? Your borderline paranoid now.

I told you yesterday, go outside and get some air. Your whining and moaning isn't going to help you in the slightest.
Everyone without a sense of reason who beat cryptics drum of doing no wrong must be getting paid something

[printcraftsman]

Yep. I'd rather have some hard working, number crunching, bug hunting dedicated tester in the closed beta than someone who bought a 6 Month sub to CO purely for access to the closed beta. Why? Because the people chosen for the the early rounds of the closed beta will be the sort of people that Cryptic need to whip the game into shape.

Sure, I thought it would be nice to get into the closed beta for STO, but that's not why I purchased a lifetime sub for CO. A one off fee that costs about the same as an 18 month sub (max) means that I can play the game on and off for as long as I want. My Lotro liefetime sub has already paid for itself, even though I don't play it with any regularity. Sometimes I'm really into it for a few weeks, then I move onto something else, then get into it for a few weeks again etc...

I really wish that this topic was hung out to dry. The bottom line is that Cryptic can pretty much change their minds about how and when you get closed beta access.

And you know what? The last person I'd choose to join the closed beta is someone who hasn't got the patience to wait and thinks that the world owes them something. If you haven't got the patience to wait, you're going to make a bloody awful beta tester.

this lifer is a true game tester and I have tested many games in the last 15 years and have been in many beta's as well

[printcraftsman]

I can agree with some of the things. I have no problem with micro-transactions as well. Oh, and they did some things I also disagree with, such as turning around and offering 'exclusive' items, in-game, etc. I think that is a pretty good slap in the customers face as well, especially the early on customers who were the ones that got the game off the ground.

As for selling access to Beta, I think it was one of the more foolish, or most ingenious things I had heard of. It can be foolish, if it wasn't prepared for properly, and mishandled. Unfortunately, that seems to be what this is looking like so far. The problems being experienced now should have been anticipated back when the notion was cooked up, as most intelligent people could see it as a possibility. Whoever handled this for Cryptic really dropped the ball in regards to PR.

Or, it could be one of the most ingenious marketing methods done so far. Okay, you have to weather the storm of complaints from some. But, I don't know the bottom line of income Cryptic got at the time from just this promotion. Are the profits generated from the promotion enough to out weigh any negative impact from the complaints? If so, then they made a profit. I might not agree with that methodology but I can understand it. It works for Microsoft.

In other threads I've seen links where a Champions Online rep made statements implying one thing about the 'when' for the beta invites for the subscription purchasers, and then was later redacted. But only after the purchases were made. In that respect I do think a refund should be seriously considered by Cryptic. A refund for the subscription paid for, minus any month's of activity the user logged onto CO. But I would only support that notion because there is some evidence to show official Cryptic representatives misrepresented (probably unintentional) a product. So, if a person paid $200 for the subscription, and never logged onto CO, then I think a $200 refund should be considered. If they logged onto the game at any point for a monthly billing cycle, that month should be deducted from the refund. It would be a nice gesture on Cryptic's part in an effort to smooth over their PR with their player base. However, legally I don't think they'd have to. After all, when was the last time the free toy in a box of cereal ever worked like it does on the commercials?

However, on the other hand, I can also see this from the technical side of things. That being this beta subscription was not the advertised product, but rather a bonus. Thus, the consumer was actually buying the subscription as the product, and the bonus of the beta offer was 'free'. Sure, in the minds of some they were not buying the subscription, but technically they were. And it doesn't change, if they only wanted the bonus item. The product offered for sale was a subscription to CO, and the product was delivered. The bonus item, which was no additional charge, is where the sticking point is. And I would strongly suspect that, technically, that is covered by the EULA that comes with the CO subscription.

Thus, I can see, and understand both sides of the issue. From an emotional aspect, I can certainly see why some people might feel like they got a bait-and-switch on the bonus item details. However I also would only support that point of view for a very select few, as a good number of complainers did not point the statement of the Cyrptic rep out, until after it had been publicized by others. Thus, I would suspect the foundation and motivations of their initial complaint. On the other hand, technically they are getting exactly what they paid for. The subscription that was the product purchased remains unaltered (to my knowledge) and is functioning as advertised. What they 'wanted' doesn't change the fact that the product being offered for sale was the subscription to CO, nothing else. The promise of a spot in closed beta still remains a free bonus, that was never sold as a product.

Personally, I think no refunds will come, and no matter what level of complaining is done, it will just move forward. I think the ones screaming about it now, will get placated when their beta invites eventually arrive and they'll just 'disappear' from the main forums. In other words, it will be a short period of grumbling and choppy water, but it will blow over. Especially since there's what, 5 months between now and the end of Q1, 2010? That's a lot of beta time. Even not getting an invite for the first month still leaves the potential of 4 months. And once everyone's feathers have been smoothed over, the whole thing will be just another forum row in the rear view mirror.

I think there's a couple of things to take away from this. First, always read the contracts you agree to. Signing "I agree" and then later claiming "I didn't know" will not stand up. Secondly, remember the adage "Buyer beware". The consumer has a responsibility to educate themselves on the items they're going to spend money on. Just like all the posts I've seen about people rushing out to pre-order the game from sites, before any official announcement has been made by the vendor. I can just see the complaints that are going to be coming now. Third, the customer is not always right. Just because a person purchased a product does not mean they get to behave out of socially accepted norms should they have an issue with the product.

If it were my company, I would never offer paid positions to an actual closed beta. Personally, I question the actual motivations of the individuals who would purchase such a thing, and complain about not being able to be "first". I suspect a good number of them are the "I wanna play first" crowd, to lord over other people. Of course the fact actual money changed hands does amplify this. But I don't think I've seen such a sense of entitlement over a beta TEST, in all the beta tests I have been in. And I honestly hope Cryptic has contingency plans in place to ensure actual testing gets done.

Edited addition:
Just one small update after reading another thread and seeing this post:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=875916#post875916
If that time line is correct, then that pretty much negates any sort of "we were lied to" argument the lifetime subscription people have.



Cryptic is weather this storm in silence hoping many will get tired of complaining and move on to something else...Cryptic I want an estimated timeline...buck up and show us you can be worth of many of our respect.

[LordDave]

Cryptic is weather this storm in silence hoping many will get tired of complaining and move on to something else...Cryptic I want an estimated timeline...buck up and show us you can be worth of many of our respect.

They already said (on IRC and posted here) that if they did, they'd violate their NDA. They can't LEGALLY SAY what the timetable is. LEGALLY!!!

Also..
We rip apart their words faster then a greedy kid rips apart wrapping paper on Christmas Morning. If I were them, I'd shut up too.

[printcraftsman]

A few you fail to realize that alpha and beta versions and testing cycles are nothing like what they used to be when companies were more interactive with the community. Does a 6 month or lifer sub mean someone isn't a good tester? I don't have a clue, but I have been in numerous alpha test cycles over the years since "96". Doesn't make me a god or even a good tester anymore, because it isn't as personal of a process as it used to be. They merely look for bugs in most cases or just totally disregard what your input is anyway because they have a separate direction they are heavily focused on.
The gaming communities are watered down compared to experienced users being the clients more so in the dawn of mmos. We really can't blame them either for not being overly attentive to every suggestion. If they tried to take to heart and focus on all the drivel produced by the most vocal, well then I'd love to be their psychiatrist making the income he'd receive.
So be angry if you feel you have the right, but I'll sit here waiting with a speculative eye on the process for when my call is sounded.


This is a reasonable and sensible person and makes some good points

[printcraftsman]

well yeh cryptic dosent owe the special sub buyers anything, myself included. i was trying to decide on a payment plan for CO when the STO offer came up and it helped me decide on a bulk 6 month payment instead of month to month. im not expecting too much, its like ordering a hamburger and getting a free cheap toy, i really enjoy the hamburger, and this little toy is just a little extra treat! now if i get beta access 1 day before open, id be annoyed but still, i didnt pay the 100 dollars for STO beta imo that is free, i payed that money for CO.
To be completely honest im enjoying CO but its kinda a hold over game until STO and TOR are out. i like to leave the earth to do my fantasy gaming, so i AM feverishly waiting on beta invite, but i keep in mind what i actually paid for and it helps to remind me im not being cheated.

I would never had bought the $200 lifer sub without the glittering enticement of "closed Beta access"

I guess all that glitters isn't gold...

[LordDave]

I would never had bought the $200 lifer sub without the glittering enticement of "closed Beta access"

I guess all that glitters isn't gold...

So let me ask you this:
If you get in say... November 15th and the release date is say... February 20th...
Would that be "access"?

[printcraftsman]

They already said (on IRC and posted here) that if they did, they'd violate their NDA. They can't LEGALLY SAY what the timetable is. LEGALLY!!!

Also..
We rip apart their words faster then a greedy kid rips apart wrapping paper on Christmas Morning. If I were them, I'd shut up too.

OK... LordDave do you think a lifer who shelled out $200 and $50 for the CO game ($250 total) which is no chump change in this economy should get in middle or last...I don't and a vague timetimetable of when they hope to have all the the paid closed betas in under a best senario or a worst case senario based upon other previous launches I doubt would get them into legal problems...

bait and switch on the other hand....

[printcraftsman]

So let me ask you this:
If you get in say... November 15th and the release date is say... February 20th...
Would that be "access"?

I wouldn't have a problem with that if I knew say every beta lifer and 6fer was expected to be in by November 30 and I got in Nov 15th. Getting in January 15th would be a different story...

[Loekii]

I would never had bought the $200 lifer sub without the glittering enticement of "closed Beta access"

I guess all that glitters isn't gold...

Why didn't you buy the 6Mo offer?

And again, you made the purchase based upon your own assumption.

You assumed you would be the first one into beta, or that because you were 'paying money' you would go to the front of the line -- when Crytpic never had said that.

[Vuk]

Loekii , if I recall correctly it also came with an offer of alternate universe uniforms? I may be wrong , but it still wasn't enough to of an offer that way unless , you really loved that super heroes genre.

[Loekii]

OK... LordDave do you think a lifer who shelled out $200 and $50 for the CO game ($250 total) which is no chump change in this economy should get in middle or last...I don't and a vague timetimetable of when they hope to have all the the paid closed betas in under a best senario or a worst case senario based upon other previous launches I doubt would get them into legal problems...

bait and switch on the other hand....

Well, obviously you were interested in CO, as you did not need to purchase CO to get the Beta access.

Secondly, you conduct over the past few days doesn't demonstrate good traits for beta testing -- impatient, demanding, laying blame, disrespect for the community, being disruptive to the community, etc.

Basically, you are acting like you are 'entitled' and can 'act out' because you feel you 'paid' for that right. So that suggests you would continue along the same path anytime you dont get your way in Beta.


Dont like the testing schedule -- you are likely to rant in teh Beta forums (or what ever they have) about how you didn't 'Pay $200' to not be allowed access to the game when ever you want it.
Don't like that they are only testing Emotes that session -- you are likely to rant about how you 'didn't pay $200' to just test emotes.
Don't like that they are never going to let you test or see 'X' before release -- you are likely to rant about how you 'didn't pay $200' to not get to see 'everything'.
Don't like that the bugs are making it un-playable - you are likely to rant about how you 'didn't pay $200' to be hindered by bugs.


Imo, people like that should be passed over for beta entirely, but as you were promised CB access, I hope they do not admit people like you until the later stages, as you will just be a disruption, rather than helping get the game made. MO.

[LordDave]

OK... LordDave do you think a lifer who shelled out $200 and $50 for the CO game ($250 total) which is no chump change in this economy should get in middle or last...I don't and a vague timetimetable of when they hope to have all the the paid closed betas in under a best senario or a worst case senario based upon other previous launches I doubt would get them into legal problems...

bait and switch on the other hand....
Yes. Yes I do. I believe those who shell out $250 to get into a beta should be the LAST people in. They are more likely to be biased then not.


I wouldn't have a problem with that if I knew say every beta lifer and 6fer was expected to be in by November 30 and I got in Nov 15th. Getting in January 15th would be a different story...
They can't because it'll violate the NDA they signed with their company. Testing schedules, procedures, ect... are all trade secrets that can NEVER be revealed to those who didn't sign the NDA.

Hell, wanna know how a beer can is made? Can't tell ya because I signed a NDA.

[Kaybok]

Loekii , if I recall correctly it also came with an offer of alternate universe uniforms? I may be wrong , but it still wasn't enough to of an offer that way unless , you really loved that super heroes genre.

Only the Lifetime sub had the mirror universe costume. That was reason enough for me... :o

[Loekii]

Loekii , if I recall correctly it also came with an offer of alternate universe uniforms? I may be wrong , but it still wasn't enough to of an offer that way unless , you really loved that super heroes genre.

They even said that they were not selling beta slots, but rather they were selling subscriptions to their Superhero game. The other stuff were just bonuses that had nothing to do with the price.

There were those that purchased the Subs, but not the game, because they bonuses for STO were worth it to them. While I don't think it was a wise way to spend their money, it was their money.

However, some people ASSUMED that they would be the first into CB, or even that they would be a 'priority pick' simply because they spend $$$, despite no one promised this. Its like buying a Car because you assume it will get you dates, and then demanding a full refund when you discover people still find you unappealing even with a car.

[Loekii]

Only the Lifetime sub had the mirror universe costume. That was reason enough for me... :o

Exactly. If you wanted that mirror uniform, and had the cash, then that is your prerogative.

I know I would have purchased the CO Sub had I it granted me the option to play Tholian, for example.

I am not slighting people for spending their money like that.

I am however calling out those that claim they were 'deceived by Cryptic', when they were only deceived by their own ignorance and poor judgment.

[Zepath]

:: ZEPATH WALKS LOEKII OVER TO A STONE WALL, POINTS AT IT AND SAYS, "Talk to it ... its just as effective."::

Loekii, you're wasting your breath and keystrokes on your keyboard ... they don't care, they don't want to listen.

[Loekii]

:: ZEPATH WALKS LOEKII OVER TO A STONE WALL, POINTS AT IT AND SAYS, "Talk to it ... its just as effective."::

Loekii, you're wasting your breath and keystrokes on your keyboard ... they don't care, they don't want to listen.

True, but if it helps some lurker, then it is worth it. :D

Hopefully they will eventually just close these threads, so we can all get back to enjoying the development of the game.

[KO_Gilligan]

:: ZEPATH WALKS LOEKII OVER TO A STONE WALL, POINTS AT IT AND SAYS, "Talk to it ... its just as effective."::

Loekii, you're wasting your breath and keystrokes on your keyboard ... they don't care, they don't want to listen.

and he won't address Daeke's "poor Judgement"

Sorry, it was Loekii who was QQing about the Subscribers getting special access less than two months ago.

There is a reason for this wall he faces, and he won't take responsibility for his claims.

[Kaybok]

However, some people ASSUMED that they would be the first into CB, or even that they would be a 'priority pick' simply because they spend $$$, despite no one promised this. Its like buying a Car because you assume it will get you dates, and then demanding a full refund when you discover people still find you unappealing even with a car.


I'm not a moaner (patiently waiting my turn) but you should understand something. I did not expect to get in on the 1st day. I did expect to be one of the 1st in because even before devs posted about it on CO forums Awen posted it to Twitter. Someone asked on Twitter when CO ppl will get in beta. She did some checking and said we would be "the first ones in". So it's not that the ****ed off people assumed... they believed the devs and perhaps missed the correction made by Stormshade. And the whole time there was no highly visible warning that the original statements from the devs changed. The info was buried deep in threads and on CO boards and somewhere on Twitter. Nothing on StarTrekOnline.com that I know of. We all had to wait for the CB to start before this bomb was dropped. At least half of this mess is Cryptic's fault for miscommunication and no-communication.

[Loekii]

and he won't address Daeke's "poor Judgement"

Sorry, it was Loekii who was QQing about the Subscribers getting special access less than two months ago.

There is a reason for this wall he faces, and he won't take responsibility for his claims.

And you noticed I stopped QQing when Rekhan clarified it.

The information is clearly out there:

They never promised first entry into CB during the sales
They corrected Daeke's incorrect statement with in 3 days.
You still could have cancelled long after that clarification.


So QQing about it now, and claiming that Crytpic is to blame because your inability to read the information and not make assumptions about what was not said, is your own fault.

[ajac09]

all I am gonig to say is they screwed up royally. THey probobly shoudl spend this week making the server ready for ALOT of people and unleash the flood gates and get ready for thier first server stress test.

[Jaxston]

and he won't address Daeke's "poor Judgement"

Sorry, it was Loekii who was QQing about the Subscribers getting special access less than two months ago.

There is a reason for this wall he faces, and he won't take responsibility for his claims.

I seem to remember that as well....:rolleyes:

[printcraftsman]

Yes. Yes I do. I believe those who shell out $250 to get into a beta should be the LAST people in. They are more likely to be biased then not.



They can't because it'll violate the NDA they signed with their company. Testing schedules, procedures, ect... are all trade secrets that can NEVER be revealed to those who didn't sign the NDA.

Hell, wanna know how a beer can is made? Can't tell ya because I signed a NDA.

What are you talking about I was refering to your qoute about getting in Nov 15....Please read you quote and then re-read mine....

As you being last then we know you are biased as well

[Loekii]

I'm not a moaner (patiently waiting my turn) but you should understand something. I did not expect to get in on the 1st day. I did expect to be one of the 1st in because even before devs posted about it on CO forums Awen posted it to Twitter. Someone asked on Twitter when CO ppl will get in beta. She did some checking and said we would be "the first ones in". So it's not that the ****ed off people assumed... they believed the devs and perhaps missed the correction made by Stormshade. And the whole time there was no highly visible warning that the original statements from the devs changed. The info was buried deep in threads and on CO boards and somewhere on Twitter. Nothing on StarTrekOnline.com that I know of. We all had to wait for the CB to start before this bomb was dropped. At least half of this mess is Cryptic's fault for miscommunication and no-communication.

Either you believe ALL the devs, or you believe none of the devs.

The argument that you only believed the Devs that said you get first position, but you did not believe Rekhan when he said that was incorrect, is just flawed.

[printcraftsman]

all I am gonig to say is they screwed up royally. THey probobly shoudl spend this week making the server ready for ALOT of people and unleash the flood gates and get ready for thier first server stress test.

There you go a potential solution....

[JackOfDiamond]

:: ZEPATH WALKS LOEKII OVER TO A STONE WALL, POINTS AT IT AND SAYS, "Talk to it ... its just as effective."::

Loekii, you're wasting your breath and keystrokes on your keyboard ... they don't care, they don't want to listen.

You didn't ever make maps did you?

[Interitus]

So let me ask you this:
If you get in say... November 15th and the release date is say... February 20th...
Would that be "access"?

Yes. But if OPEN beta started on November 20th, I would feel ripped off. I think as long as all people who were promised into closed beta get in a reasonable time before open beta starts then that's fine. But if you are letting people in a few days before open beta, that's just shady.

And LordDave your avatar always makes me laugh. Michael Shanks used to live somewhere near me before I moved, I would see him now and then when buying groceries

[Kaybok]

Either you believe ALL the devs, or you believe none of the devs.

The argument that you only believed the Devs that said you get first position, but you did not believe Rekhan when he said that was incorrect, is just flawed.

My argument is that they miscommunicated. I never saw anything from Rekhan correcting previous dev statements. I check STO forums and STO Dev Tracker daily but not CO forums. It's obvious from the #'s of people who thought the same thing that they did not communicate adequately on this issue. They should have had something up on StarTrekOnline.com warning CO subscribers they would not be in the first 1-3 waves of closed beta or something similar. More up-front communication would have fixed this mess before it began.

[Seancstew]

Either you believe ALL the devs, or you believe none of the devs.

The argument that you only believed the Devs that said you get first position, but you did not believe Rekhan when he said that was incorrect, is just flawed.

Rekhan himself also said that subscribers would be first in.

hH LATER, changed his statement, which I am sure that some most people missed. why did they miss it?

he mentioned it in a chat, which was posted... and more people read chat transcripts than lurk in forums.

6 of one, half dozen of the other, it was widely believed that they would be the first in. Does not really matter to me, i get in, I get in, I dont, I dont. I will still buy the damned game and play it :D

And yes, I am a Co subscriber, yes, I was guaranteed a slot. No, i dont give a damned if I have to wait.

But I will ya this, their communication about the subject has been **** poor, both internally and externally, and no one, not even the company themselves, can deny that.

[Kaybok]

Rekhan himself also said that subscribers would be first in.

hH LATER, changed his statement, which I am sure that some most people missed. why did they miss it?

he mentioned it in a chat, which was posted... and more people read chat transcripts than lurk in forums.


That explains why I missed it... now I know. It wasn't in Dev Tracker since it was posted by a forum user?

[Loekii]

That explains why I missed it... now I know. It wasn't in Dev Tracker since it was posted by a forum user?

Actually it was posted on this Forum by Rekhan, and is in the Dev tracker for the STO site.




August '09 - Offer for CO sub with guarenteed CBeta Access goes on sale (no specification about 'early', nor 'first', nor exclusively first).
Sept 1 - Sales close.
Sept 13 - Daeke's post (http://forums.champions-online.com/showpost.php?p=1050296&postcount=4) "You guys will be the first ones in...when closed beta begins. We haven't announced a date/time yet."
Sept 16 - Rekhan's post (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=768132&postcount=48) - "Daeke's statement wasn't entirely accurate. He spoke a bit too soon, is all . Like I said previously, we don't have a plan yet, which is why we haven't said anything officially."
Oct 1 - End of 'no questions asked' Refund
Oct 22 - First Wave of CB letters goes out.

[Jaxston]

Actually it was posted on this Forum by Rekhan, and is in the Dev tracker for the STO site.

••August '09 - Offer for CO sub with guarenteed CBeta Access goes on sale (no specification about 'early', nor 'first', nor exclusively first).
•Sept 1 - Sales close.
•Sept 13 - Daeke's post "You guys will be the first ones in...when closed beta begins. We haven't announced a date/time yet."
•Sept 16 - Rekhan's post - "Daeke's statement wasn't entirely accurate. He spoke a bit too soon, is all . Like I said previously, we don't have a plan yet, which is why we haven't said anything officially. THOUGH LIFETIMES AND 6 MONTHS SUB WILL LIKELY BE GIVEN PREFERENCE"
•Oct 1 - End of 'no questions asked' Refund
•Oct 22 - First Wave of CB letters goes out.


Your quoting half sentences....I like how people use information and change it to suit there needs.

;)

[Loekii]

Your quoting half sentences....I like how people use information and change it to suit there needs.

;)


Preference does not mean 'they all get in on the first day', nor does it mean 'no one but CO Subs' will be admitted to CB first.

Lets say they sent 500 invites out:

400 To Co Subs
100 to Forum posters


That is giving 'preference'.

Just because you did not get invited, doesn't mean no CO Sub recieved an invite.

[Kaybok]

Thanks, Loekii. Not sure how I missed those. In any case I believe they need to run the invite schedule as designed. I would hate to see hordes of CO subscribers get in to play and not test.

If they bundle CB access with subs to their next game, perhaps they will use multiple forms of communication to make SURE the community is informed about a change or miscommunication. 3 posts from 3 devs in 3 different places (STO-Rekhan, CO-Daeke, Twitter-Awen) saying we are 1st to get in VS. 1 correction post from 1 dev (STO-Rekhan) did not do the trick in informing us all.

[Loekii]

Thanks, Loekii. Not sure how I missed those. In any case I believe they need to run the invite schedule as designed. I would hate to see hordes of CO subscribers get in to play and not test.

If they bundle CB access with subs to their next game, perhaps they will use multiple forms of communication to make SURE the community is informed about a change or miscommunication. 3 posts from 3 devs in 3 different places (STO-Rekhan, CO-Daeke, Twitter-Awen) saying we are 1st to get in VS. 1 correction post from 1 dev (STO-Rekhan) did not do the trick in informing us all.

I agree -- though I am sure that they will simply just not bundle CB access publicly on any future project.

Not know their Beta schedule, I would imagine that generally the CO Subbers invites will all be sent out by say the end of Dec or begining of January.

Like I posted above, I think they are just going to pad the number of invites towards CO Subers, and sprinkle in the lottery, etc.

[Aradragoon]

Well although I tend to agree with the fact that they did not specify a date to access the CB here is what it says on amazon for the pre-order.

"Pre-order Offer
Pre-order Star Trek Online and receive beta access (dates not yet announced) and an Amazon.com exclusive Borg Bridge Officer. Beta access codes will be e-mailed out prior to the start of the beta. Borg officer codes will be located inside the box. Offer valid when shipped and sold by Amazon.com, while supplies last. Limit one per customer."

http://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-Online-Pc/dp/B002673XJA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1256602222&sr=8-1

Specifically stating that those people would get their key BEFORE the beta release.

[LordDave]

all I am gonig to say is they screwed up royally. THey probobly shoudl spend this week making the server ready for ALOT of people and unleash the flood gates and get ready for thier first server stress test.
To make the server ready they need to invite a wide array of people in to test the system.
Which is what they're doing now. That's standard testing procedure: Test that the system can get people on, then test the software on the system.

What are you talking about I was refering to your qoute about getting in Nov 15....Please read you quote and then re-read mine....

As you being last then we know you are biased as well

Oh, sorry. Just ignore it. I have no idea what I was thinking when I typed that.

Yes, I'd be upset if I only had 1 month of Closed Beta but it would satisfy the requirements of the agreement.
Also, that's highly unlikely since the biggest part of any Closed Beta is content testing (making sure missions work, planets work, enemies work, ect...) so that'll likely go on for 3-4 months. That's when they let in everyone at once.


Yes. But if OPEN beta started on November 20th, I would feel ripped off. I think as long as all people who were promised into closed beta get in a reasonable time before open beta starts then that's fine. But if you are letting people in a few days before open beta, that's just shady.

And LordDave your avatar always makes me laugh. Michael Shanks used to live somewhere near me before I moved, I would see him now and then when buying groceries
But OPEN beta won't start until a few weeks before the game launches. Open beta is when the game is 99% tested. Closed Beta is when the game is 5% tested. Or some random percentage.

I don't expect Open Beta to start until mid February.

[LordDave]

Well although I tend to agree with the fact that they did not specify a date to access the CB here is what it says on amazon for the pre-order.

"Pre-order Offer
Pre-order Star Trek Online and receive beta access (dates not yet announced) and an Amazon.com exclusive Borg Bridge Officer. Beta access codes will be e-mailed out prior to the start of the beta. Borg officer codes will be located inside the box. Offer valid when shipped and sold by Amazon.com, while supplies last. Limit one per customer."

http://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-Online-Pc/dp/B002673XJA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1256602222&sr=8-1

Specifically stating that those people would get their key BEFORE the beta release.

Which Beta?

[Kaybok]

Which Beta?

LOL Yep... Amazon doesn't know jack. They specifically did not specify which beta but that is probably open beta.

[Huutini]

LOL Yep... Amazon doesn't know jack. They specifically did not specify which beta but that is probably open beta.

Nah, someone here posted a reply from Amazons CS, which stated that it's for the open beta.

[Zepath]

Nah, someone here posted a reply from Amazons CS, which stated that it's for the open beta.

Yep yep, I saw it with my own two beady eyes. :)

[Jaxston]

Yep yep, I saw it with my own two beady eyes. :)

Yeah I saw it as well.

[Kaybok]

Nah, someone here posted a reply from Amazons CS, which stated that it's for the open beta.

Thx That's what I suspected. Good to know for sure. But then, Cryptic never confirmed Gamestop's nor Amazon's preorder packages did they?

[printcraftsman]

Thx That's what I suspected. Good to know for sure. But then, Cryptic never confirmed Gamestop's nor Amazon's preorder packages did they?

It give us a good basic timeframe to work backwards from....

[Zepath]

Thx That's what I suspected. Good to know for sure. But then, Cryptic never confirmed Gamestop's nor Amazon's preorder packages did they?

Nope and they won't ... as I said earlier, there's usually a contract between the vendors and the publishers that they will not discuss other vendor's offers.

[idoxash]

it would seem they are those that are defending cryptic: mostly because they hope cryptic notices and invites them.

it would seem the are those that are making a huge deal out of it: mostly because they feel they were ripped off.

the ad that cryptic posted was very vague which is why i stayed away from it. it simply said buy this sub or that sub and get into STO closed beta. cryptic should accept that they messed up with this vague ad and do what's right. now that "right" is their truth. so it could mean to give in and invite all the folks that bought into the ad or not give in and focus on their own time tables. i don't know cryptic's truths and what's right for them but i could see my self leaning a bit toward the folks that feel they were ripped off. once again i'm just glad that i applied logic to the ad when it ran and said no.

what cryptic should have done for STO was sell beta seats! now maybe one day these gaming studios would get a grip and cash in on these ideals that you often see in these kinds of forums. think about selling the whole beta as some sort of package. let's say 20 or 30 dollars for the 3 or 4 months a beta might take. i'm sure they may not be able to take on a lot of folks but first come first serve could play a role. even just 10,000 folks paying 20/30 dollars could go a long way in paying the bills.

[Vaercolac]

it would seem they are those that are defending cryptic: mostly because they hope cryptic notices and invites them.
Eh, not quite... Some of the $60/$200 subbers have been "defending" cryptic as well. "Defending" in quotes - speaking only for myself, I'm really just reacting to some of the more strident and extreme arguments of those who feel like they've been ripped off. I personally don't feel like I owe Cryptic any loyalty.

so it could mean to give in and invite all the folks that bought into the ad or not give in and focus on their own time tables.
I don't think the former is even possible yet. Part of closed beta involves ramping up the number of folks in the game in a controlled way, in order to catch and server and engine instabilities. Besides, getting in right away isn't the only issue - some folks are more upset that people who didn't buy the CO subs are getting in on the first wave.

once again i'm just glad that i applied logic to the ad when it ran and said no.
Heh, yeah, the whole thing smelled like trouble, and when I saw Daeke's statement I /facepalmed. I knew it couldn't be true... Maybe that's why I'm not upset - I inoculated myself with skepticism first :p

what cryptic should have done for STO was sell beta seats!
Gotta admit, I cringed a little. While it might be feasible, it seems like it'd be an act of pure greed on Cryptic's part - unless it can be shown that this would actually benefit the beta process itself. Then there's that whole slippery slope thing, where eventually only cash would get you into any beta - but maybe that's bound to happen anyway.

[LordDave]

it would seem they are those that are defending cryptic: mostly because they hope cryptic notices and invites them.

Oh please. Cryptic may take note of a few people here: KO, Loekii, Flatfingers... but beyond that... they won't give a damn. No amount of brown-nosing is going to help. Know what helps? Being helpful. Offering constructive criticism. Able to use complete sentences. (no "u r c00L") And a generally friendly nature.

Me? I'm a *****. A crazy, evil, twisted guy.
MWAHAHAHAHA!

[LordDave]

Gotta admit, I cringed a little. While it might be feasible, it seems like it'd be an act of pure greed on Cryptic's part - unless it can be shown that this would actually benefit the beta process itself. Then there's that whole slippery slope thing, where eventually only cash would get you into any beta - but maybe that's bound to happen anyway.

I can't think of a better way to DESTROY Closed Beta then to let people buy their way in. You might as well call it Open Beta and give out keys to everyone.

[Loekii]

Nah, someone here posted a reply from Amazons CS, which stated that it's for the open beta.

Yet I am sure there will be people that will Pre-Order it, and then start demanding to be let into Closed Beta, because they 'assumed' it meant CB.

This is the world we live in folks.

You have to read the fine print, and its a buyer beware market.

Buying things on assumptions and making emotional purchases, is about as financially sound as letting the guy on the corner that you 'think' looks trustworthy.

[Vaercolac]

I can't think of a better way to DESTROY Closed Beta then to let people buy their way in. You might as well call it Open Beta and give out keys to everyone.
No kidding, but I think the writing's on the wall. If marketers smell real money there, they'll gladly drag the whole development process through the mud to get it.

...doesn't help that we clearly have people who are, apparently, willing to shell out $200 for 4-5 months of closed beta. I mean, $40-$50 per month? For a beta??

[Loekii]

Eh, not quite... Some of the $60/$200 subbers have been "defending" cryptic as well. "Defending" in quotes - speaking only for myself, I'm really just reacting to some of the more strident and extreme arguments of those who feel like they've been ripped off. I personally don't feel like I owe Cryptic any loyalty.

I don't have an fidelity to Cryptic.

My stance is simply against the 'I was lied to' rants, and they 'everyone else is to blame for my own mistakes' stances.

Had Daeke made his comment on Aug 13, and Cryptic never retracted it, I would be in agreement that they are being deceptive. I even agree that Amazon is being deceptive in their Pre-Order offer.

However, in this case, Crytpic is following what they advertised.

[LordDave]

No kidding, but I think the writing's on the wall. If marketers smell real money there, they'll gladly drag the whole development process through the mud to get it.

...doesn't help that we clearly have people who are, apparently, willing to shell out $200 for 4-5 months of closed beta. I mean, $40-$50 per month? For a beta??

The human race is more or less stupid.
Hope we wipe ourselves off the planet soon.

[harsgault]

Oh the marketers are never going to be quite openly selling entrance into closed Beta testing. Sure it might make them a little extra cash on a one-time basis, but how are they supposed to spend that money when the programmers have murdered them all because hundreds of 'buy-in's are crying that they encountered a crash at X mission or couldn't use Y function because it wasn't ready to be put in the current build.

Marketing folks maybe always thinking of ways to get moar monies, but they are not willing to let themselves die in the attempt. Publicity stunts not withstanding.

[Vaercolac]

I think you've got the power relations reversed, there, H. Programmers are already chained to their desks - it's just a matter of time before they're moved into underground dungeons and fitted with cybernetic implants so that they don't have to move to satisfy basic biological functions. The programmers of the future will be bloated, slug-like creatures that do nothing but exude code into massive vats for the pleasure of vampiric beings with perfect hair that will be the future marketers.

Our only hope is that programmers will eventually evolve into Morlocks.

Oh, is it pill time already?

[curtst]

The human race is more or less stupid.
Hope we wipe ourselves off the planet soon.

Dave, I heart you. :p

[printcraftsman]

Dave, I heart you. :p

Many Sqeaky wheels are getting in....Pax for on.

[Arokh72]

The human race is more or less stupid.
Hope we wipe ourselves off the planet soon.

2012 Dave is when it happens fear not.

[LordDave]

Many Sqeaky wheels are getting in....Pax for on.
I heard.
And he apologized. All that ranting about "Cryptic is lying to us" (as though he knew for a fact) has now been silenced.
It's almost like he whined JUST for a Closed Beta now...

2012 Dave is when it happens fear not.
Pfft. Nothing will happen. Remember 2000?

[Vaercolac]

2012 Dave is when it happens fear not.

Pfft. Nothing will happen. Remember 2000?
Yeah, but these are Mayans, man...

[printcraftsman]

I heard.
And he apologized. All that ranting about "Cryptic is lying to us" (as though he knew for a fact) has now been silenced.
It's almost like he whined JUST for a Closed Beta now...


Pfft. Nothing will happen. Remember 2000?

Give him credit he did a somewhat apology....He still stuck it to them on the marketing and advertising. He only seem to somewhat apologize after he got in.....Read between the line...LOL

[s0ulsurvivor]

I think a lot of people fail to realize that beta is for testing, not for playing.

[printcraftsman]

I think a lot of people fail to realize that beta is for testing, not for playing.

is it play to test or is it test to play

I'm a little confused by your point

[Zandtar]

Give him credit he did a somewhat apology....He still stuck it to them on the marketing and advertising. He only seem to somewhat apologize after he got in.....Read between the line...LOL

Yes, if you do read between the lines, you can see the principles involved. It was all doom and gloom, until he got his invite. Now, it's sunshine and rainbows. The situation hasn't changed, other than his own personal gain.

And that 'apology' came only after he got his invite. Which, makes it pretty insincere and meaningless in my book.