The real reason for the CO beta uproar

[jamestpicard55]

It has occured to me from reading the forums that there is a common misconception about the CO beta uproar. People tend to think that its simply a matter of people complaining because they werent the very first person invited. While that may in fact be a small part of it, it is not the main issue.

It all boils down to this: cryptic attatched the promise of closed beta to something people PAID for, and the fact that that promise was attatched to something PAID for implied it was different than "normal". Granted, they never said "you will be the very first person in". And as they have explained, they simply CANT let everyone who bought the CO package in at once, as there are too many.

However, this is where the problem comes in: they are letting people who DIDNT buy the CO package OR win a contest in BEFORE some who did. Many people are upset, not that they werent the very first person selected for beta, but that people who didnt spend any money or win any contest are getting into beta BEFORE those that did.

Now, I'm not saying that argument is right(or wrong), simply making it a litte clearer for the people who think its simply a matter of being upset about not being first in line.

[slingbladez]

For those complaining that some non paying people got into the beta first, spend a bit of time looking up how developers generally pick beta testers. They do friends and family first, then they hand pick certain people from the community they believe will be really thorough tester and then they choose people with systems that they want to test. After that they branch out to more groups of people but CO subs have to keep in mind how they fit into the closed beta cycle. They can't just be plopped in the Closed Beta before the developers need them because they spent a bit of money on a CO subscription, STO closed beta was just a perk.

The perk only guaranteed their spot in the beta so they don't have to wait for the next 4-5 months in hopes of getting randomly selected among hundreds of thousands of people for only a couple of thousands spots. They a guaranteed spot in, it's likely the vast majority of the community will be stuck with the 1-2 week fileplanet open beta. However the CO subs get the beta for (more than likely) 2-5 months which is alot longer than the vast majority of the community so it seems like a good deal to me.

For a February release you still have 4 months of closed beta access left
For a March release you still have 5 months of closed beta access left

Unfortunately a Champion Online PR person said they would get in first without knowing it was actually going to happen that way and a lot of people have it stuck it in their head they were promised to be let in first instead of "close beta acccess" which was what they bought.

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=768132&postcount=48

And in regard to the PR complaints, Daeke's statement wasn't entirely accurate. He spoke a bit too soon, is all :). Like I said previously, we don't have a plan yet, which is why we haven't said anything officially. Once I have an actual schedule sitting in front of me, I'll let you guys know how we plan on making the invites happen. Bear in mind, though, we will likely be giving lifetime and six-month account holders access ahead of standard applicants.

Unfortunately the Champions Online PR person posted in the Champions Online forum about a Star Trek Online decision that wasn't even made yet. The Star Trek Online PR person clarified this 3 days later by saying the Champions Online PR person spoke too soon and the STO people haven't figured out exactly when the CO subscribers will get in for a perk that they bought for another game.

[jamestpicard55]

Unfortunately a Champion Online PR person said they would get in first without knowing it was actually going to happen that way and a lot of people have it stuck it in their head they were promised to be let in first instead of "close beta acccess" which was what they bought.

You completely missed the point of this thread. For the most part, I think people UNDERSTAND that not everyone who bought the subs can be "first in" because there are too many. That is the issue your talking about. What I'm clarifying in THIS thread is that it goes beyond that. People are upset that people who DIDNT spend money on the deal OR win a contest are getting in before those that did. That is a completely different issue.

[Capt_Dracon_Darknight]

It has occured to me from reading the forums that there is a common misconception about the CO beta uproar. People tend to think that its simply a matter of people complaining because they werent the very first person invited. While that may in fact be a small part of it, it is not the main issue.

It all boils down to this: cryptic attatched the promise of closed beta to something people PAID for, and the fact that that promise was attatched to something PAID for implied it was different than "normal". Granted, they never said "you will be the very first person in". And as they have explained, they simply CANT let everyone who bought the CO package in at once, as there are too many.

However, this is where the problem comes in: they are letting people who DIDNT buy the CO package OR win a contest in BEFORE some who did. Many people are upset, not that they werent the very first person selected for beta, but that people who didnt spend any money or win any contest are getting into beta BEFORE those that did.

Now, I'm not saying that argument is right(or wrong), simply making it a litte clearer for the people who think its simply a matter of being upset about not being first in line.


There is a very simple reason for that:
Most of the CO subscribers just want to play the game, most of them probably don't even know what testing means...

[jamestpicard55]

For a February release you still have 4 months of closed beta access left

Wrong. If the game release in Feb(4 months from now), then open beta has to start sometime, so there is no way closed beta(what you said above) would last 4 months if the game is only 4 months from release.

[bluehair]

Well to be honest you are paying for a 6mo/lifetime subscription for Champions Online. What ever other incentives are there, are just that. Incentives. If you paid just to use the STO online, and now complaning about it, its your own fault. Just sit back, wait a month, play some CO, then come back raging :)

If Cryptic let eveyone in who took the special offer, then they would have over 1000 peeps all scambling into the server, then we will hear nothing about complaints about not being able to download the client/update the client/join the game, because of the rush. Just like with the open beta CO (i never did the closed beta, so dont know how bad or smooth that went).

So really, whats worse?

[jamestpicard55]

There is a very simple reason for that:
Most of the CO subscribers just want to play the game, most of them probably don't even know what testing means...

Actualy, there is no reason to think those people are any different than the randomly selected people from the forums. Without an in person detailed interview, there is no way to know how well a person is really going to "test" the game compared to just playing it. Even among the people who got in on the first round and are playing right now there may be people who are "just playing" rather than testing. The point is, there is absolutely no way to say who is or isnt in that category, so trying to say that the CO people are is simply fail, and nothing more.

[jamestpicard55]

Well to be honest you are paying for a 6mo/lifetime subscription for Champions Online. What ever other incentives are there, are just that. Incentives. If you paid just to use the STO online, and now complaning about it, its your own fault. Just sit back, wait a month, play some CO, then come back raging :)

If Cryptic let eveyone in who took the special offer, then they would have over 1000 peeps all scambling into the server, then we will hear nothing about complaints about not being able to download the client/update the client/join the game, because of the rush. Just like with the open beta CO (i never did the closed beta, so dont know how bad or smooth that went).

So really, whats worse?

Here, have a copy/paste:

You completely missed the point of this thread. For the most part, I think people UNDERSTAND that not everyone who bought the subs can be "first in" because there are too many. That is the issue your talking about. What I'm clarifying in THIS thread is that it goes beyond that. People are upset that people who DIDNT spend money on the deal OR win a contest are getting in before those that did. That is a completely different issue.

[chillwolf]

There is a very simple reason for that:
Most of the CO subscribers just want to play the game, most of them probably don't even know what testing means...


People who make blanket statements are also probably bad beta testers.

[HailingFrequencyZach]

I agree wholeheartedly with the original post in this thread. There are people out there who bought the CO subsription with the impression that they would be in the beta before people who simply just used the form on the Star Trek Online Website.

Yes, they are guarenteed to get in, but when - it could be a week, it could be a month, it could be TWO months and in the meantime, people who filled in the form via the website are getting in already.

When you promise someone a guarenteed slot in the closed beta, this too me means you should get in before those who are NOT guarenteed.......

And I am sorry, but it was posted on the Champions Online Forums that subscribers to the 6 month or Lifetime Packages would get into the beta first. This sole comment may have been a huge part in peoples decisions to purchase either of these packages. Even though he was wrong, coming along later on and saying this is not the case is just wrong, and could even be interpreted as false advertising / false promising.

[Capt_Dracon_Darknight]

Actualy, there is no reason to think those people are any different than the randomly selected people from the forums. Without an in person detailed interview, there is no way to know how well a person is really going to "test" the game compared to just playing it. Even among the people who got in on the first round and are playing right now there may be people who are "just playing" rather than testing. The point is, there is absolutely no way to say who is or isnt in that category, so trying to say that the CO people are is simply fail, and nothing more.

Oh there is a reason...
They have spent around 200 $$ for a livetimesubscription without knowing whether they'll stop playing in five months just because they were hot to play STO.

Otherwise they would have applied normally, since testing is considered work.

So alone the fact that they bought the subscription and are complaining now, is proofound evidience for my thesis.

[jamestpicard55]

So alone the fact that the bought the subscription and are complaining now, is proofound evidience for my thesis.

If complaining about something means a person wont be a good beta tester, then the fact that you are complaining about THEM complaining means YOU wont make a good beta tester...accoridng to your ridiculous logic anyway.

[tarjan]

allso i would like to remind the critics that say co lifers and 6monthers arent betatesters is just wrong , theese lifetime deals and 6month deals was offerd to the betatesters before the general public.....

[slingbladez]

You completely missed the point of this thread. For the most part, I think people UNDERSTAND that not everyone who bought the subs can be "first in" because there are too many. That is the issue your talking about. What I'm clarifying in THIS thread is that it goes beyond that. People are upset that people who DIDNT spend money on the deal OR win a contest are getting in before those that did. That is a completely different issue.

For those complaining that some non paying people got into the beta first, spend a bit of time looking up how developers generally pick beta testers. They do friends and family first, then they hand pick certain people from the community they believe will be really thorough tester and then they choose people with systems that they want to test. After that they branch out to more groups of people but CO subs have to keep in mind how they fit into the closed beta cycle. They can't just be plopped in the Closed Beta before the developers need them because they spent a bit of money on a CO subscription, STO closed beta was just a perk.

The perk only guaranteed their spot in the beta so they don't have to wait for the next 4-5 months in hopes of getting randomly selected among hundreds of thousands of people for only a couple of thousands spots. They a guaranteed spot in, it's likely the vast majority of the community will be stuck with the 1-2 week fileplanet open beta. However the CO subs get the beta for (more than likely) 2-5 months which is alot longer than the vast majority of the community so it seems like a good deal to me.

[bluehair]

Here, have a copy/paste:


Hmm, I think you totally missed my point here...

Its BETA, they need to test to make sure of stability. Letting in a bunch of subbers who want to play isnt going to help. After all, Cryptic knows nothing of their beta testing experiance or machine specs.

So give them time, let me let the peeps who they think they need to make it stable. It will be better for it.

And really, Cryptic made no offers or assurance at the time of the offer that only the special subbers had exclusive access to the Beta first. In that they let all of them in first, no matter how many days/weeks that would take, then let in anyone else who applied for beta. All they promised is access to closed beta. However long that access is, only the devs know. So if you only get 1 month of closed beta, then that promise is still fulfilled. Still better than the pot luck of the beta application - which is still an option.

[Vaercolac]

However, this is where the problem comes in: they are letting people who DIDNT buy the CO package OR win a contest in BEFORE some who did. Many people are upset, not that they werent the very first person selected for beta, but that people who didnt spend any money or win any contest are getting into beta BEFORE those that did.
Yep, I get it. Those who bought the CO package think they're owed more than those who didn't.

At the risk of repeating myself, the flip side of this is that there are plenty of Star Trek fans who absolutely love the idea of STO, but couldn't care less about CO and didn't want to shell out good, hard money for a subscription they knew they'd never use. A strictly "buyer first" policy would shove these people aside - possibly in favor of CO fans who couldn't give a targ's tooth about Star Trek, but who will take any free game time they can get.

While I think Cryptic have obligated themselves to giving preference over sub buyers, I don't think exclusive preference is a good idea. I'd trust a regular, constructive STO forumite to actually test the game more than some guy who hadn't even thought about STO until he got the closed beta email.

All in all, I do think it's a mistake to sell Closed Beta slots, whether as part of a package or no.

[hellsh]

I rather see a none 6er/lifer, but active and involved forum member as a prime beta tester, than some "I want to play, cause i have paid" whiner.

[rook111]

There is a very simple reason for that:
Most of the CO subscribers just want to play the game, most of them probably don't even know what testing means...

and you know this how?

[phlyto]

Yep, I get it. Those who bought the CO package think they're owed more than those who didn't.
...

All in all, I do think it's a mistake to sell Closed Beta slots, whether as part of a package or no.

QFE.

The Final point is that the Dev's have given their answers. Theres a sticky at the top of the page that contains them. Posting this on a weekend when all the Devs are off the clock/dont post is not going to change those answers, and would not change those answers anyway. All this is doing is stirring the pot and trying to get people riled up again.

I'd rather see people ranting about ship interiors, or speculating about Klingon content than more posts about this, :rolleyes:

[Capt_Dracon_Darknight]

If complaining about something means a person wont be a good beta tester, then the fact that you are complaining about THEM complaining means YOU wont make a good beta tester...accoridng to your ridiculous logic anyway.

Well, first of all you can't pick one sentence out of whole context ;).

Second, maybe I am mybe not.
I applied normally, since I have patience, I could not do something, if I do not get in anyway.

Sure, I will be happy to test the game. The game is a good chance for improving startreks overall reputation after all.
Furthermore, if there are too many bugs in the final nobody would want to play it, resulting several people being upset about loosing a good game (Just like hellgate, there were not really many bugs but they had to close the servers anyway).

Third, you didn't get the context at all.
It's complaining its about WHAT ABOUT they are complaining, NOT THAT they are complaining.
So from your text on they are complaining about gettin in after people who applied normally, even though Crytptic said that they want to cover different machines, players and Areas.

E//: At Silk: I never said anyone I said most. And I am pretty sure most of them wouldn't try to force bugs out of the game.
Meaning: intentionally do things that should not work like this from the very beginning to look if its bugged or not.
(For example typing a Letter in a numeric textbox.

[Caladwen]

Ok,. I'm one. I did pay for the CO sub and a large part of that decision was getting the STO beta. I am Playing CO and it is fun, but not going to be a long term game for me.

Now, I am going to make a assumption here so bear with me, the receipt number on my billing for the CO sub with STO beta access was 00007952. (IF) I was the 7952 person to buy that deal ( and I did it very early) there could be 10's of thousands cue'd up.

I want in asap too, but realisticly it will take time to let that many in. And in all honesty, letting TESTERS in early will benifit us all. Most of the CO sub folks (IMO) wont be testers. For my part I have Beta's several games in the past, so understand the requirements of the task.

[jamestpicard55]

It's complaining its about WHAT ABOUT they are complaining, NOT THAT they are complaining.

Nah, thats the hypocrite's excuse. Group A is complaining about something they feel is valid(beta), Group B is complainign about something they feel is valid(group A complaining...or what their complaing about). But the truth is, complaining is complaining, regardless of who is doing it or what its about. If your going to complain about someone else complaining, it just makes you a hypocrite.

[Keldaria]

Ok,. I'm one. I did pay for the CO sub and a large part of that decision was getting the STO beta. I am Playing CO and it is fun, but not going to be a long term game for me.

Now, I am going to make a assumption here so bear with me, the receipt number on my billing for the CO sub with STO beta access was 00007952. (IF) I was the 7952 person to buy that deal ( and I did it very early) there could be 10's of thousands cue'd up.

I want in asap too, but realisticly it will take time to let that many in. And in all honesty, letting TESTERS in early will benifit us all. Most of the CO sub folks (IMO) wont be testers. For my part I have Beta's several games in the past, so understand the requirements of the task.

many people bought the CO subs because they wanted CO. The idea of garenteeing all the CO players (and the STO people willing to pay for just beta) garenteed slots in STO before the STO community is utter sillyness. it would be like if they came to us a year from now and siad ok since your paying STO players you guys are gonna get beta for the new CO expansion .. but not doing the same for CO players

I would've happly paid for a preorder to STO because it was the product I was interested in and getting the garenteed beta perk for preordering early would've been fine but instead they snubed the STO community in favor of CO and thats my biggest problem with the entire senario.. so if they let normal beta subs in aswell without giving 100% prefferance to the CO subs then I say all the better because thats how it should have been

[jamestpicard55]

The idea of garenteeing all the CO players (and the STO people willing to pay for just beta) garenteed slots in STO before the STO community is utter sillyness.

It wasnt ALL CO players, just the ones who wanted to buy a 6 month or lifetime package, during a SPECIFIC TIME PERIOD. That would probably only be a very small faction of the total CO playerbase.

[AdmiralHocking]

@Capt_Dracon_Darknight,

Making sweeping statements based upon the vocal minority says more about you than it does Champions Subscribers, to be honest.

[relisys]

so u see guys Cryptic only let the none paying people in first because either 2 things, they have been on the forums from day 1, been very dedicated to his game and not come on near the end of the game development,

or 2 they have built up trust from the mods/devs to gain that access,

cryptic know that most of the people who bought the subs are only there to play the game and not test it (finding bug ect) so that's why cryptic is making this decision!

you all need to take a chill pill and think like this, "i will have my turn but not just yet!"

[AdmiralHocking]

cryptic know that most of the people who bought the subs are only there to play the game and not test it (finding bug ect)

I honestly what to know where this assumption that CO subscribers are incompetent is coming from on these forums.

Does the fact that most of the CO subscribers were involved in the Closed and Open Betas for Champions not suggest that they are indeed competent testers? Add to that the number of Star Trek Online followers whom have been following the title since the Perpetual days. Then there are also the hardcore Cryptic fans to consider, whom have been with Cryptic since City of Heroes and also bought into this plan.

That alone, should suggest that the majority of people with these subscriptions, are more interested in actually testing the game than just playing - don't you think?

[Loekii]

I
However, this is where the problem comes in: they are letting people who DIDNT buy the CO package OR win a contest in BEFORE some who did. Many people are upset, not that they werent the very first person selected for beta, but that people who didnt spend any money or win any contest are getting into beta BEFORE those that did.


How do you know that they did not let in people who applied with the CO Subs? How do you know who was invited at all, and for what reason?

IIRC, you could not say you were in Beta in the CO Beta. So odds are the same NDA applies to STO.

The problem I see here is just one thing: ASSUMPTIONS.

Just because YOU did not get an invite, does not mean others did not.

[dan6526]

Here, have a copy/paste:

You completely missed the point of this thread. For the most part, I think people UNDERSTAND that not everyone who bought the subs can be "first in" because there are too many. That is the issue your talking about. What I'm clarifying in THIS thread is that it goes beyond that. People are upset that people who DIDNT spend money on the deal OR win a contest are getting in before those that did. That is a completely different issue.

I understand that your upset over this. But in reality they also need machines of varying sophistication. They figure that everyone who bought those subscriptions likely could play CO, but they are also interested in how slow machines handle STO. Which they could pull out of the applications. Plus there are contest winners. You did pay for closed beta access, and you'll get it, but Cryptic also needs to be able to take the largest variation of machines in every batch.

[jamestpicard55]

How do you know that they did not let in people who applied with the CO Subs?

I never said NO ONE from the "CO sub" group got in, what I said was that there are people who DIDNT buy the deal OR win a contest getting in BEFORE all of those that did, and that is straight from the devs mouth(in one of the IRC chats).

[ChicksDigHarleys]

These forums the last two days are Exhibit A of why it's a bad idea to sell beta slots.

[runrhino06]

For those complaining that some non paying people got into the beta first, spend a bit of time looking up how developers generally pick beta testers. They do friends and family first, then they hand pick certain people from the community they believe will be really thorough tester and then they choose people with systems that they want to test. After that they branch out to more groups of people but CO subs have to keep in mind how they fit into the closed beta cycle. They can't just be plopped in the Closed Beta before the developers need them because they spent a bit of money on a CO subscription, STO closed beta was just a perk.

The perk only guaranteed their spot in the beta so they don't have to wait for the next 4-5 months in hopes of getting randomly selected among hundreds of thousands of people for only a couple of thousands spots. They a guaranteed spot in, it's likely the vast majority of the community will be stuck with the 1-2 week fileplanet open beta. However the CO subs get the beta for (more than likely) 2-5 months which is alot longer than the vast majority of the community so it seems like a good deal to me.

For a February release you still have 4 months of closed beta access left
For a March release you still have 5 months of closed beta access left

Unfortunately a Champion Online PR person said they would get in first without knowing it was actually going to happen that way and a lot of people have it stuck it in their head they were promised to be let in first instead of "close beta acccess" which was what they bought.

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=768132&postcount=48



Unfortunately the Champions Online PR person posted in the Champions Online forum about a Star Trek Online decision that wasn't even made yet. The Star Trek Online PR person clarified this 3 days later by saying the Champions Online PR person spoke too soon and the STO people haven't figured out exactly when the CO subscribers will get in for a perk that they bought for another game.

Very well put. I agree with you. You know, I will be happy to get into beta whenever it's allowed!

I do admit, there was a little confusion at first with one of the devs posting that we would be the first ones in. Sure, that statement in the literal terms was incorrect, but the people that bought the 6 month/LT subs will still be able to test the game at some point within beta.

I'm not complaining one bit, I have read and understand Cryptic's points on the CCU targets and server stability. I do have to say, though, I've never been the one to enjoy waiting for the "soon coming" w/o a certain date but that's life.

All I can say is, I'm happy about seeing, working within, and playing beta when I do get the chance. For the meantime...back to playing Bridge Commander and leveling my Champions toon!

[jamestpicard55]

These forums the last two days are Exhibit A of why it's a bad idea to sell beta slots.

Your right. In retrospect, it was an absolutely terrible idea. However, it happened, so now the Devs have to deal with the problem they've created.

[relisys]

I honestly what to know where this assumption that CO subscribers are incompetent is coming from on these forums.

Does the fact that most of the CO subscribers were involved in the Closed and Open Betas for Champions not suggest that they are indeed competent testers? Add to that the number of Star Trek Online followers whom have been following the title since the Perpetual days. Then there are also the hardcore Cryptic fans to consider, whom have been with Cryptic since City of Heroes and also bought into this plan.

That alone, should suggest that the majority of people with these subscriptions, are more interested in actually testing the game than just playing - don't you think?

oh yeah the Perpetual days, ...... enough sad with them

but any way it just makes sense, doesn't it, "i have money so il show off to all my friends that i bought a beta sub to the awesome game STO, cool isn't it"

im not saying all of the subs are just there to play the game, all im saying is, most probably cryptic know that half of them subs are only going to be there to play and not test!

and yes there could be loads of dedicated fan who bought the sub just to test it and not play it.... but there is people on this forum who dont have that privilege to pay for beta!

i just knew and some other people on this forum knew asking for sub for beta access was a bad bad idea!

[wolfing]

The OP is 100% correct.
If there are 100 spots available, I don't care if I'm not in that group, as long as those 100 spots are from the specified groups (life, 6 month, contest winners).

[rook111]

so u see guys Cryptic only let the none paying people in first because either 2 things, they have been on the forums from day 1, been very dedicated to his game and not come on near the end of the game development,

or 2 they have built up trust from the mods/devs to gain that access,

cryptic know that most of the people who bought the subs are only there to play the game and not test it (finding bug ect) so that's why cryptic is making this decision!
you all need to take a chill pill and think like this, "i will have my turn but not just yet!"

i'm not worried about getting in like i've said elsewhere i bought the sub for CO and yes the sto beta is an added bonus and i will probably enjoy STO more than i will Champions. Champions is a fluff game very little substance but i knew that going in.

What bugs me is the highlighted statement above, and the many like it in the various threads i have read, that basicly denigrate the CO sub buyers.

First of all the Offer was made to the BETA TESTERS of CO First, and a great many of those subs were bought by BETA Testers. So saying that most of the CO subs arn't going to test the game is insulting. JUst like many of the random people selceted for beta some will test, some will not. Please quit insulting everyone with generalities.

Second, I don't like the CO subs who are complaining either. Its a Beta, Sure we were told something that was wrong in the end but its was corrected come on folks this is cryptic they have a habit of saying the wrong thing and having to back track. Anyone who has been around these or any other Cryptic games and forums should know this by now. They have said we are getting in in the waves thy have said we have a priority, there were over a 1000 life time subs and who knows how many 6 mos in the end. It will take time to integrate that many into a test server.

Third, to the folks who are bashing the CO subs because we bought them expecting to get into the STO beta or for what ever reason we bought them. Stop the bashing. You may have not had the money, you may have not liked the idea that the betas were "sold", you may just not have cared. But we did. We cared enough to spend money to SUPPORT cryptic and teh game you have been following so hard. Some people did it because they have alot of money and didn't miss the amount spent. Some did it because they liked CO and STO and thought thats a damned good bargain. And some people did it for who knows why and maybe they skimped the rest of the month because it dropped the bank account to only 10 bucks. Doesn't matter it was thier money to do with as they wish and they decided to SUPPORT CRYPTIC with that money. Stop bashing them it makes you look jealous and petty.

I'm done. If i've insulted anyone please feel free to put me on ignore. I know i have abig list.

[ChicksDigHarleys]

i'm not worried about getting in like i've said elsewhere i bought the sub for CO and yes the sto beta is an added bonus and i will probably enjoy STO more than i will Champions. Champions is a fluff game very little substance but i knew that going in.

What bugs me is the highlighted statement above, and the many like it in the various threads i have read, that basicly denigrate the CO sub buyers.

First of all the Offer was made to the BETA TESTERS of CO First, and a great many of those subs were bought by BETA Testers. So saying that most of the CO subs arn't going to test the game is insulting. JUst like many of the random people selceted for beta some will test, some will not. Please quit insulting everyone with generalities.

Second, I don't like the CO subs who are complaining either. Its a Beta, Sure we were told something that was wrong in the end but its was corrected come on folks this is cryptic they have a habit of saying the wrong thing and having to back track. Anyone who has been around these or any other Cryptic games and forums should know this by now. They have said we are getting in in the waves thy have said we have a priority, there were over a 1000 life time subs and who knows how many 6 mos in the end. It will take time to integrate that many into a test server.

Third, to the folks who are bashing the CO subs because we bought them expecting to get into the STO beta or for what ever reason we bought them. Stop the bashing. You may have not had the money, you may have not liked the idea that the betas were "sold", you may just not have cared. But we did. We cared enough to spend money to SUPPORT cryptic and teh game you have been following so hard. Some people did it because they have alot of money and didn't miss the amount spent. Some did it because they liked CO and STO and thought thats a damned good bargain. And some people did it for who knows why and maybe they skimped the rest of the month because it dropped the bank account to only 10 bucks. Doesn't matter it was thier money to do with as they wish and they decided to SUPPORT CRYPTIC with that money. Stop bashing them it makes you look jealous and petty.

I'm done. If i've insulted anyone please feel free to put me on ignore. I know i have abig list.

No, not all the people that bought CO subs are just going to play the game and not actually test it, but it's a safer bet the ones here whining they aren't in Day 1 fit into that category.

[indigowhale345]

When you promise someone a guarenteed slot in the closed beta, this too me means you should get in before those who are NOT guarenteed.......

And I am sorry, but it was posted on the Champions Online Forums that subscribers to the 6 month or Lifetime Packages would get into the beta first. This sole comment may have been a huge part in peoples decisions to purchase either of these packages. Even though he was wrong, coming along later on and saying this is not the case is just wrong, and could even be interpreted as false advertising / false promising.


No, they should not. There is no reasonable expectation of preference when you simply have a "guaranteed closed beta slot". It was not "guaranteed day 1 closed beta" or "guaranteed 1st wave closed beta" its "guaranteed closed beta" period. If someone wants to read more into that than was actually written, well that is their problem isn't it?

Cryptic needs to do the beta the RIGHT way, and if that means they are picking people who may well be better beta testers, a more known quantity, over people who bought a slot, then GOOD. If that means that they are starting out by picking people with specific system requirements they want to test over some random subscribers, then GOOD. That's how its supposed to be done.


And yes, Daeke misspoke. But his statement was later refuted. People misspeak, companies make mistakes, and no you can't hold them accountable for every little word, especially when they came out and corrected the mistake. What was advertised on the page we bought the subs from was and is exactly what we are getting, and that is a closed beta slot among the other things with actual dollar value.

Remember when they Cryptic us there would be fleet built ships? Remember when presidents told us there would be bipartisanship? Lets sue, right?

When it was later refuted, anyone who bought it for the sole reason of getting the beta slot could easily have called to cancel it and ask for refund. Did anyone do that? Probably not. I'm betting anyone who hasn't activated their subscription key yet can still get a refund.

Its absurd to watch people dissect every little word that gets released here, like its so carefully crafted with layers and layers of meaning, written in Da Vinci Bible code or something. Its even more ridiculous to see people rabidly complaining and tossing out phrases when they have no idea what they actually mean, like bait and switch, and false advertising.

Chill out people, make yourself a taco, hug your Foxbat action figures. Another week or two or three isn't going to kill you, and you'll get what you paid for. Cryptic needs to do the beta the right way, not the way you told yourself it would be.

[jacksparrowjive55]

No, not all the people that bought CO subs are just going to play the game and not actually test it, but it's a safer bet the ones here whining they aren't in Day 1 fit into that category.

not realy. we're talking about two completely different issues here:

1) people being upset because of a misinterpretation/lack of information regarding when they would get in

2) how well they will "test" the game compare to simply playing it

those two issues realy arent related.

[Loekii]

not realy. we're talking about two completely different issues here:

1) people being upset because of a misinterpretation/lack of information regarding when they would get in

2) how well they will "test" the game compare to simply playing it

those two issues realy arent related.

I agree.

1) is their own fault. They made a bad Assumption.

2) is independent of 1). They could make good or bad testers.

However, to tbh, I think those that are raising a fuss and fist pounding, are indicating negative traits for a beta tester.

They are displaying an inability to be patient and tolerant, which is a rather important quality of a beta tester.

[rook111]

Its absurd to watch people dissect every little word that gets released here, like its so carefully crafted with layers and layers of meaning, written in Da Vinci Bible code or something. Its even more ridiculous to see people rabidly complaining and tossing out phrases when they have no idea what they actually mean, like bait and switch, and false advertising.

Chill out people, make yourself a taco, hug your Foxbat action figures. Another week or two or three isn't going to kill you, and you'll get what you paid for. Cryptic needs to do the beta the right way, not the way you told yourself it would be.

Hmmmm... The Cryptic Code a crossover mission between Co and STO....I can see the possiblities.

[Kerbos]

Im wondering myself that some people who didnt buy CO come in Beta either. Because so much people are crying they bought CO and want in. AND Cryptic said that there are so much that they cant invite them at all.
I would prefer it to make A Closed CO Beta. A few weeks of Closed Beta just for CO subscripers. Wave for wave invite them. AND then lock the CO Players and invite Random Players for the real Closed Beta. CO players played in Beta, and thats what they paid for. AND the Chance of a random guy to come in beta is much better.

[fritos12]

There is a very simple reason for that:
Most of the CO subscribers just want to play the game, most of them probably don't even know what testing means...

Sorry this statement just is bad most people that bought this where in the closed beta and the ob like I was we tested co and put in bug reports so I dont believe this is a far statement and I'm really not surprised by this move by cryptic with the things they did too co. It looks like I might be keeping my eye more on Star Wars any how with klingon have to be unlocked never heard such a thing before every mmo that has more then one race has there own starting area. The game is sounding just messed up before it even starts.

[rook111]

Im wondering myself that some people who didnt buy CO come in Beta either. Because so much people are crying they bought CO and want in. AND Cryptic said that there are so much that they cant invite them at all.
I would prefer it to make A Closed CO Beta. A few weeks of Closed Beta just for CO subscripers. Wave for wave invite them. AND then lock the CO Players and invite Random Players for the real Closed Beta. CO players played in Beta, and thats what they paid for. AND the Chance of a random guy to come in beta is much better.

yeah right and you think the forums are in an uproar now...do that and the server will melt.

[Capt_Dracon_Darknight]

i'm not worried about getting in like i've said elsewhere i bought the sub for CO and yes the sto beta is an added bonus and i will probably enjoy STO more than i will Champions. Champions is a fluff game very little substance but i knew that going in.

What bugs me is the highlighted statement above, and the many like it in the various threads i have read, that basicly denigrate the CO sub buyers.

First of all the Offer was made to the BETA TESTERS of CO First, and a great many of those subs were bought by BETA Testers. So saying that most of the CO subs arn't going to test the game is insulting. JUst like many of the random people selceted for beta some will test, some will not. Please quit insulting everyone with generalities.

Second, I don't like the CO subs who are complaining either. Its a Beta, Sure we were told something that was wrong in the end but its was corrected come on folks this is cryptic they have a habit of saying the wrong thing and having to back track. Anyone who has been around these or any other Cryptic games and forums should know this by now. They have said we are getting in in the waves thy have said we have a priority, there were over a 1000 life time subs and who knows how many 6 mos in the end. It will take time to integrate that many into a test server.

Third, to the folks who are bashing the CO subs because we bought them expecting to get into the STO beta or for what ever reason we bought them. Stop the bashing. You may have not had the money, you may have not liked the idea that the betas were "sold", you may just not have cared. But we did. We cared enough to spend money to SUPPORT cryptic and teh game you have been following so hard. Some people did it because they have alot of money and didn't miss the amount spent. Some did it because they liked CO and STO and thought thats a damned good bargain. And some people did it for who knows why and maybe they skimped the rest of the month because it dropped the bank account to only 10 bucks. Doesn't matter it was thier money to do with as they wish and they decided to SUPPORT CRYPTIC with that money. Stop bashing them it makes you look jealous and petty.

I'm done. If i've insulted anyone please feel free to put me on ignore. I know i have abig list.

Again, I too don't say it implies to everyone.
But there certainly is truth behing it.
There would also be truth behind it if you say that there are some people who applied to play it beforehand.

How much of support the LS really is I do not know...

Lets ASSUME the LS costs 200 $$.
A normal month playtime 15 $$.

200/15 = 13.33 ~~ 14 Months

I have no clue about Crypics momentary need of funds, but people playing CO longer than 14 Months (even if it is just one) would be a loss of 15 $$ per person, in theory.


Coming back to you post:

I can just speak for myself.
I am not upset about some people getting in for sure because they bought the right to it.

What disturbs me are those threads from CO subbers who are complaining about:

Not being in from the very beginning
Normal applicants getting in before them too.

The offer may have been made to Beta testers of CO first, but what does it imply?
Beforehand I am not saying you have not tested it and only played, but I will say that there were some of those people even in the CO beta. (AGAIN I AM NOT SAYING EVERYONE IS LIKE THAT). And sure one will find a bug while playing and report it. No one can deny it. But there still is a difference between looking for bugs and stubling over them.

No one ever wanted to insult CO subscribers, even though some got insulted in the end.
A statement was made, leading to people thinking about it and writing their own opinion. The generalization might have insulted some people but that is hardly evitable, when different opinions are clashing against each other.

[Roy_Vash]

Much of the recent uproar does not originate with the tens of thousands of subbers who have the perk of STO beta participation. There may be a vocal minority of who are doing a double take and expressing their stupidity in print, but there are obviously many who understand the situation better and are waiting patiently.

Painting the entire group (certainly more than 10,000) the same color as the ones who jumped to certain conclusions and then ran off at the keyboard is foolish.

Overgeneralizing about the testing capabilities of people who may or may not have purchased 6mo/life subs to obtain beta participation is petty and mean. Mean in the sense that it doesn't show much breadth of thought, limited because it takes few other motivations for their purchase into account.

Some of this blow up on the forum is due to those "outraged" clients, but much of the firestorm has been fed by those who have exaggerated how representative of the paid beta population the complainers really are.

[Kerbos]

yeah right and you think the forums are in an uproar now...do that and the server will melt.

Explain me the difference between letting first in the Co players wave by eave like now, OR mix the random guys with the CO.
I would say in one point the COplayers would stop crying.

[Grox]

When you promise someone a guarenteed slot in the closed beta, this too me means you should get in before those who are NOT guarenteed.......

And I am sorry, but it was posted on the Champions Online Forums that subscribers to the 6 month or Lifetime Packages would get into the beta first. This sole comment may have been a huge part in peoples decisions to purchase either of these packages. Even though he was wrong, coming along later on and saying this is not the case is just wrong, and could even be interpreted as false advertising / false promising.

I have to agree with this. It was convenient for the sake of marketing a game to tag closed beta keys to CO, but now that the doo-doo has hit the fan all I see is them deflecting responsibility on some poor fella from CO. Well that poor fella got his info from somebody and overall it's one company... Cryptic.

Oh there is a reason...
They have spent around 200 $$ for a livetimesubscription without knowing whether they'll stop playing in five months just because they were hot to play STO.

Otherwise they would have applied normally, since testing is considered work.

So alone the fact that they bought the subscription and are complaining now, is proofound evidience for my thesis.

You may have a point, but at the time this is how Cryptic chose to market their product. If it falls on anyone it's them.

Hmm, I think you totally missed my point here...

Its BETA, they need to test to make sure of stability. Letting in a bunch of subbers who want to play isnt going to help. After all, Cryptic knows nothing of their beta testing experiance or machine specs.

So give them time, let me let the peeps who they think they need to make it stable. It will be better for it.

I see your point, but I think you need to take it up with Cryptic and not their customers. After all, they sold the beta keys as part of a package. If they are going by specs then they should have gathered the specs of everyone who made that purchase and let them in first until they got all of them in. Then go out and grab more if needed. When all is said and done this was a business transaction and the offer was made by Cryptic.

And really, Cryptic made no offers or assurance at the time of the offer that only the special subbers had exclusive access to the Beta first. In that they let all of them in first, no matter how many days/weeks that would take, then let in anyone else who applied for beta. All they promised is access to closed beta. However long that access is, only the devs know. So if you only get 1 month of closed beta, then that promise is still fulfilled. Still better than the pot luck of the beta application - which is still an option.

I heard this round and round. It's more annoying then the people who are complaining about their beta keys. [If] this is what Cryptic's excuse is, then it's poor business. And I say that cautiously because I don't know where that came from. They should have made it clearer themselves, after all it was their product. The gaff is on them. Shifting the responsibility to their customers is shifty.

I rather see a none 6er/lifer, but active and involved forum member as a prime beta tester, than some "I want to play, cause i have paid" whiner.

Great opinion, but this is about a business transaction that already took place. Should have said something then.

These forums the last two days are Exhibit A of why it's a bad idea to sell beta slots.

Exactly! As tempting as the offer was, I am glad I didn't buy into it. No offense to those who did, I hope you learned your lesson. While I completely understand your side in this situation, you need to be a better consumer in the future.

[Gadareth]

For the main part as far as Cryptic are concerned having a Beta tester from the forums or one from the promotion are identical both are basically a unknown factor.

If they do not perform as required they will just add more to make up the numbers needed. Remember part of whats being tested is just plain numbers. They have professional testers in the game who are makaing reports (that is not saying however that player reports are uneeded or unwanted infact the opposite they are welcomed and very much desired). Part of what the people brought in are doing is making up the numbers. How does the game perform when 50 ships are having a battle.

How fast are people progressing where are they getting stuck, how much are they enjoying things.

They also may want a wide spread of machine specs, how does the game work on low end machines, top end. High bandwidth low bandwidth, international, American etc.

They have a wide range of details from the applicants so can pick and choose a few with the particular system builds they need to add.

Lastly it is way to soon for the promotional people to be panicking. The CB has only been active now for 24 hours give it a month (plenty of time to add people slowly) before you start worrying.

Just my 2 cents
Gadareth

[Magelord]

Yep, I get it. Those who bought the CO package think they're owed more than those who didn't.

At the risk of repeating myself, the flip side of this is that there are plenty of Star Trek fans who absolutely love the idea of STO, but couldn't care less about CO and didn't want to shell out good, hard money for a subscription they knew they'd never use. A strictly "buyer first" policy would shove these people aside - possibly in favor of CO fans who couldn't give a targ's tooth about Star Trek, but who will take any free game time they can get.

While I think Cryptic have obligated themselves to giving preference over sub buyers, I don't think exclusive preference is a good idea. I'd trust a regular, constructive STO forumite to actually test the game more than some guy who hadn't even thought about STO until he got the closed beta email.

All in all, I do think it's a mistake to sell Closed Beta slots, whether as part of a package or no.

Actually, as a CO lifer, I love Champions, (Pnp/RPG & Online), as well as Star Trek. It was a can't lose deal for me . . .

[rook111]

Again, I too don't say it implies to everyone.
But there certainly is truth behing it.
There would also be truth behind it if you say that there are some people who applied to play it beforehand.

How much of support the LS really is I do not know...

Lets ASSUME the LS costs 200 $$.
A normal month playtime 15 $$.

200/15 = 13.33 ~~ 14 Months

I have no clue about Crypics momentary need of funds, but people playing CO longer than 14 Months (even if it is just one) would be a loss of 15 $$ per person, in theory.



It was an immediate cash infussusion of at least 200K from the Life time sales alone. You don't look a the longterm for thier gains because in the end its a loss for each oerson that plays beyond the year or so that the sub cost. But that is a huge burst amont of cash for the company upfront and that is a huge thing for Cryptic.

[naynayz]

I agree wholeheartedly with the original post in this thread. There are people out there who bought the CO subsription with the impression that they would be in the beta before people who simply just used the form on the Star Trek Online Website.

Yes, they are guarenteed to get in, but when - it could be a week, it could be a month, it could be TWO months and in the meantime, people who filled in the form via the website are getting in already.

When you promise someone a guarenteed slot in the closed beta, this too me means you should get in before those who are NOT guarenteed.......

And I am sorry, but it was posted on the Champions Online Forums that subscribers to the 6 month or Lifetime Packages would get into the beta first. This sole comment may have been a huge part in peoples decisions to purchase either of these packages. Even though he was wrong, coming along later on and saying this is not the case is just wrong, and could even be interpreted as false advertising / false promising.

I can certainly see this side of it. That was one of the factors I took into consideration when I bought it.

[everittdaniel]

Y'know, if a guesstimated timeline was released I think it would go someway towards cooling the hot heads down a bit.

EG - 27th october - intake. 29th october - intake.

[rook111]

Explain me the difference between letting first in the Co players wave by eave like now, OR mix the random guys with the CO.
I would say in one point the COplayers would stop crying.

I was referring to your lock out suggestion.

[Ellsworth]

James T Picard was a good man... but that was another life...
Stop complaining, just drop it.

[naynayz]

No, they should not. There is no reasonable expectation of preference when you simply have a "guaranteed closed beta slot". It was not "guaranteed day 1 closed beta" or "guaranteed 1st wave closed beta" its "guaranteed closed beta" period. If someone wants to read more into that than was actually written, well that is their problem isn't it?

Cryptic needs to do the beta the RIGHT way, and if that means they are picking people who may well be better beta testers, a more known quantity, over people who bought a slot, then GOOD. If that means that they are starting out by picking people with specific system requirements they want to test over some random subscribers, then GOOD. That's how its supposed to be done.


And yes, Daeke misspoke. But his statement was later refuted. People misspeak, companies make mistakes, and no you can't hold them accountable for every little word, especially when they came out and corrected the mistake. What was advertised on the page we bought the subs from was and is exactly what we are getting, and that is a closed beta slot among the other things with actual dollar value.

Remember when they Cryptic us there would be fleet built ships? Remember when presidents told us there would be bipartisanship? Lets sue, right?

When it was later refuted, anyone who bought it for the sole reason of getting the beta slot could easily have called to cancel it and ask for refund. Did anyone do that? Probably not. I'm betting anyone who hasn't activated their subscription key yet can still get a refund.

Its absurd to watch people dissect every little word that gets released here, like its so carefully crafted with layers and layers of meaning, written in Da Vinci Bible code or something. Its even more ridiculous to see people rabidly complaining and tossing out phrases when they have no idea what they actually mean, like bait and switch, and false advertising.

Chill out people, make yourself a taco, hug your Foxbat action figures. Another week or two or three isn't going to kill you, and you'll get what you paid for. Cryptic needs to do the beta the right way, not the way you told yourself it would be.

From cryptic to presidents to the bible?,,,,,, un what? lol sounds like this ::rant rant rant rant:: I agree though. People need to calm down. Just accept it. You are simply not what cryptic needs in the game yet and your time will come.

[slingbladez]

Here is some info for the people that haven't seen it yet.

If you have been guaranteed a beta slot, you are guaranteed to gain access during the course of the Closed Beta. Due to our requirements you may not make it into the first round or two of invites. But don’t worry: More invites are coming!

Hey everyone,

I wanted to stop in and clarify a few things.

First, I need to tell you that the information Daeke posted back in September that has been quoted was incorrect. The people who purchased lifetime and 6 months subscriptions for Champions Online are very important to us. However, as much as we want to, we cannot accommodate all users who wish to play the STO closed beta on day-one. The server simply cannot handle that kind of load this early into testing. Please understand that this is very much a closed beta test.

Of course, invites are currently being sent to our CO lifetime and six-month promotional subscribers, they will continue to be sent to them until they are all in the beta test. We will also continue inviting remaining Cryptic / Atari friends and family, contest winners, and a few regular signups to ensure we get testing across the board.

Just as soon as we're comfortable and confident that our infrastructure will accommodate them, all lifetime and six-month subscribers will get in, guaranteed. I know you all want to know when this will be, and we're working on getting you all a time frame for when we will have all of you in the test.

Thanks,

Stormshade

[geodbdrunk01]

Great stuff Slingblades!

Cryptic has every right to do their Beta the right way, and it looks to me like they are doing just that. I'm a CO sub guy too, and I have no problem waiting until they are ready to let me in to CB.

[Renaikan]

For those complaining that some non paying people got into the beta first, spend a bit of time looking up how developers generally pick beta testers. They do friends and family first, then they hand pick certain people from the community they believe will be really thorough tester and then they choose people with systems that they want to test. After that they branch out to more groups of people but CO subs have to keep in mind how they fit into the closed beta cycle. They can't just be plopped in the Closed Beta before the developers need them because they spent a bit of money on a CO subscription, STO closed beta was just a perk.

The perk only guaranteed their spot in the beta so they don't have to wait for the next 4-5 months in hopes of getting randomly selected among hundreds of thousands of people for only a couple of thousands spots. They a guaranteed spot in, it's likely the vast majority of the community will be stuck with the 1-2 week fileplanet open beta. However the CO subs get the beta for (more than likely) 2-5 months which is alot longer than the vast majority of the community so it seems like a good deal to me.

QFT and my thoughts exactly.

[Suricata]

Theres somethign else to consider about all of this, how are the devs supposed to know who bought the 6 month and lifetime sub for STO beta, and who bought it for CO? Look at it this way, they could invite 100 people with the CO subs and end up inviting 100 Hardcore CO players who don't care about STO in any way shape or form and thus gte 'no' testers at all. There's no way at all for them to differenciate, and when they can only invite a small number of people at first, they need to ensure those people count.

There are quite a few people on the forums that have won contests and that we know have bought lifetime subs who have litterally dissapeared since the beta started, to me this seems like pretty good evidence that people who have won the contests and bought subs have infact managed to get in. Personally, I'd be much happer with osmeone thats been signed up on these forums from day one and been constructive getting in forst as well, than someone that got a perk when they bought a bub for another game, especially when the number of spots are so limited.

Alot of people are going to feel real silly in a week or so when they get thier invites and realise how crazy it was to fly up the wall like they have, more so when they realise beta is 'not' a finished game like some people seem to be thinking it is.

[.Spartan]

People who make blanket statements are also probably bad beta testers.

Hmm.. Not a blanket statement in my book given he used a qualifier; the qualifier being "most". Anyway the irony of the blanket statement in your post amuses me. :D

[VanCaptain]

:confused:

Maybe they are letting in a selection of individuals, utilising an internal design philosophy with matched criteria...

You know, maybe they want a cross section of beta testers, ohhh..its just a random thought:eek:, but maybe they need a wide selection of computer/os set up's in order to, ohhh, its crazy:eek:, but maybe they need that so they can get a good cross section of results on the whole beta testing thing.:cool:

All CO lifers/6 monthers are getting into Beta, but there not all getting in on day one... the latter was NEVER guranteed..just the former.

[Vaercolac]

Actually, as a CO lifer, I love Champions, (Pnp/RPG & Online), as well as Star Trek. It was a can't lose deal for me . . .
Yeah, I'll admit, the STO beta was a tipping point for me. I got the $60 deal - "Six months for the cost of 4, and I get into STO Closed Beta? Where's my debit card?"