more than they can chew

[lollypopcandyman]

So I've been watching STO for a long time now, though I have registered on the forums until recently. The more I read about the game, the more I get the feeling Cryptic has bitten off more than they can chew. Not that their incapable of making a good game, or incapable of making a good Star Trek game, but that trying to launch with two factions is going to be a mistake.

In general, I would say that an MMO should have two factions at launch. However, based on what we have learned about how the two factions will work, it souds like they've spent way too much time on the Federation, and way too little time on the Klingons. While launching with two factions can be a good thing if they are both fully developed, launching with one whole faction and one half faction is only going to hurt the game's rep. Sadly, first impressions tend to stick, and that means that a bad rep from the beginning is going to be hard to shake.

If I were Cryptic, I would just launch with the Federation. I know that is going to make alot of people upset, but I would make the Klingons the first major update after launch, and I would make sure they have a game just as rich as the Federation. Its better to wait a little bit and get it right than to rush things and get it wrong. Thanks for your comments.

[Akolythos]

Have you considered the possibility that Cryptic considers the current idea of Klingon gameplay to be "fully developed"?

[mirkrim]

If the game is released and it turns out to be Star Trek Champions Online with shallow content, then I'd agree with you. But I think it's too early to say at this point.

[bradley1701]

Hey, you should stop by your public library and judge a bunch of the books there by their cover.... ;)

[Zepath]

I don't believe they bit off more than they can chew, and I don't think they should have released without a second faction in the game.

There would be sooo many people that would stop looking at STO and never look back if it didn't have PvP content at launch.

The day of a strictly PvE game has long since passed. And there's just too many people out there, who for them, end game is all about PvP.

I won't even get into the outcry that would have arisen had their not been Klingons in the game. Just look at the reaction to no Romulans.

[Vuk]

Have you considered the possibility that Cryptic considers the current idea of Klingon gameplay to be "fully developed"?

It's an excuse that holds little credibility .

[Hardac]

I won't even get into the outcry that would have arisen had their not been Klingons in the game. Just look at the reaction to no Romulans.

WHERE'S MY D'DERIDEX!!!!:mad:

Also, I believe the Klingon part of the info release is to begin soon, if not already, if one were to consider the recent trailer. And I do.

[Akolythos]

It's an excuse that holds little credibility.

You seem to be stating here that you believe your opinion carries more weight than anyone else's. Is this correct? :eek:

[Bedlam66]

While I don't like the Idea of a PVP Driven faction, it does suit the Klingon Culture. Also Cryptic could very well find out that Having Less PVE content for them was a Mistake and release a whole Slew of of them in a Content Update while keeping in the Spirit of the Klingons.

The truth of the mater is that we don't know how it's going to be handled and taken care of yet. I could end up loving the Klingon side just as it is, even though I'm not a fan of PVP.

[Antagonist]

Hey, you should stop by your public library and judge a bunch of the books there by their cover.... ;)

I want to quote this in my sig....because its just so awesomely true:D...but i cant think of a good way to put it in....:(

[Vuk]

You seem to be stating here that you believe your opinion carries more weight than anyone else's. Is this correct? :eek:

No more of an assumption than the one you presented . Although based on Gozer's IRC comments and the statement of a former Cryptic employee , I'd say the evidence points to incomplete Factional content for the Klingons.

[Loekii]

No more of an assumption than the one you presented . Although based on Gozer's IRC comments and the statement of a former Cryptic employee , I'd say the evidence points to incomplete Factional content for the Klingons.

Well "Former" employees are always the best sources for factual and unbiased information. :rolleyes:

I think overall, the problem has been and will be that people have a simply assumed far too much, and now that they are finding out that point, they are thinking Cryptic is making an 'unfinished' game.

[Desterion]

It's funny how federation players are perfectly content with klingons have watered down content. They'l be the ones crying after Cryptic has to release a big pve patch aimed squarely at klingons with little for the feds.

[Vuk]

While launching with two factions can be a good thing if they are both fully developed, launching with one whole faction and one half faction is only going to hurt the game's rep. Sadly, first impressions tend to stick, and that means that a bad rep from the beginning is going to be hard to shake.

This statement basically sums up the story.

[pyriel2005]

I think the main problem here is that I believe they are working under a very tight timetable, the license for this title has been out there for quite some time, and there is probably some pressure to release it sooner rather than later (not that I agree with that approach for various and sundry reasons). That being said Cryptic has a good framework for an engaging MMO, but I think that their work post launch is really going to be a determining factor as to whether or not this game truly lives up to the potential of the IP.

[Aethilgar]

While I don't like the Idea of a PVP Driven faction, it does suit the Klingon Culture.

I would agree that battle suits the Klingon Culture. However; battle can come from any number of sources other than PvP. An entire NPC rogue Klingon House could be created just for that purpose.

[Zepath]

I think the main problem here is that I believe they are working under a very tight timetable, the license for this title has been out there for quite some time, and there is probably some pressure to release it sooner rather than later (not that I agree with that approach for various and sundry reasons). That being said Cryptic has a good framework for an engaging MMO, but I think that their work post launch is really going to be a determining factor as to whether or not this game truly lives up to the potential of the IP.

Well unless Zinc is lying to us, he's said in a couple of interviews now that the game is basically done. They are just cleaning up some stuff and packaging it for beta release.

And there's no reason for him to even make the comment if it weren't true.

So I'm fairly comfortable, since they still have beta, that their time table isn't *that* tight.

Interiors, Romulans, other systems they've talked about ... I honestly believe those were removed and not being worked on because Zinc wants to do that right, expects them to take months, and removing them did take the pressure off the time-table.

In my thirteen years of working in the game business ... I never saw a game go gold, where there wasn't a list of 100+ things we wanted to put in the game that just didn't make it.

If you don't set a dead-line and stick to it, no game would ever be finished. The designers and programmers will always come up with just one more thing to add or make better.

[Norexan-Guy]

I suppose they could make some Klingon PvE content based on player input.

[LordDave]

Well unless Zinc is lying to us, he's said in a couple of interviews now that the game is basically done. They are just cleaning up some stuff and packaging it for beta release.

And there's no reason for him to even make the comment if it weren't true.

So I'm fairly comfortable, since they still have beta, that their time table isn't *that* tight.

Interiors, Romulans, other systems they've talked about ... I honestly believe those were removed and not being worked on because Zinc wants to do that right, expects them to take months, and removing them did take the pressure off the time-table.

In my thirteen years of working in the game business ... I never saw a game go gold, where there wasn't a list of 100+ things we wanted to put in the game that just didn't make it.

If you don't set a dead-line and stick to it, no game would ever be finished. The designers and programmers will always come up with just one more thing to add or make better.

Duke Nukem Forever.

Sorry but SOMEONE had to say it. :p


As for the "biting off more then they could chew" I want to point out that most of us are Star Trek fans and Gamers. If we had the chance to make our own Star Trek MMO I'm damn sure most of us would. (hell, most of us think we know better anyway :rolleyes: )

These guys at Cryptic aren't so different from us. They were in the business, they make games for a living. The Star Trek MMO license opened up and they said "HELL YES!" much the same way that we would. After all, when the opportunity of a lifetime hits you, you don't think about it and then say "no, no... I wouldn't be able to do it right".

It is possible that they had to agree to certain.... restrictions.... regarding timetable and such. While I have no real evidence of this, I just have this gut feeling that STO wasn't started as a business idea (like 99% of all other MMOs) but as a labor of fandom.

[Corehaven22]

No more of an assumption than the one you presented . Although based on Gozer's IRC comments and the statement of a former Cryptic employee , I'd say the evidence points to incomplete Factional content for the Klingons.

Ive seen you say this stuff in other threads over and over again in different ways.

Ive never seen someone hit the nail on the head so many times in a row. I agree that this is exactly what has happened here.

I dont think Cryptic MEANT for the game to be this way. I surmise in fact, that they would have liked to have had a fully featured Klingon faction. But its not in the cards. Not enough time. Not enough money. Not enough man power.

Regardless, I worry that this is an extremely bad sign when you start seeing that corners are being cut long before the game ever releases. Not good. Not good at all. :(

[bradley1701]

I want to quote this in my sig....because its just so awesomely true:D...but i cant think of a good way to put it in....:(

hahaha go right ahead!

[Zepath]

Duke Nukem Forever.

Sorry but SOMEONE had to say it. :p


As for the "biting off more then they could chew" I want to point out that most of us are Star Trek fans and Gamers. If we had the chance to make our own Star Trek MMO I'm damn sure most of us would. (hell, most of us think we know better anyway :rolleyes: )

These guys at Cryptic aren't so different from us. They were in the business, they make games for a living. The Star Trek MMO license opened up and they said "HELL YES!" much the same way that we would. After all, when the opportunity of a lifetime hits you, you don't think about it and then say "no, no... I wouldn't be able to do it right".

It is possible that they had to agree to certain.... restrictions.... regarding timetable and such. While I have no real evidence of this, I just have this gut feeling that STO wasn't started as a business idea (like 99% of all other MMOs) but as a labor of fandom.

I would suspect, given their experience with Perpetual, the ST Franchise was far more concerned with having people on site to audit progress than they were in setting a dead-line. Atari is the only ones setting dead-line here (IMO) ... and of course Cryptic's internal deadline goals.

[LordDave]

I would suspect, given their experience with Perpetual, the ST Franchise was far more concerned with having people on site to audit progress than they were in setting a dead-line. Atari is the only ones setting dead-line here (IMO) ... and of course Cryptic's internal deadline goals.

Nah. Cryptic had an internal deadline since August of 2008, which was prior to Atari purchasing Cryptic.

Atari is likely working off the timeframe given to them by Cryptic and Crytpic is working off their original timeframe given to them by the foamy mouthed, gibbering Cryptic employee who thought that this was the best thing in the world and he'd do anything to do it, even if it meant making the release date look sweet without actually planning it out in meticulous detail.

[Archangelwoghd]

While I don't like the Idea of a PVP Driven faction, it does suit the Klingon Culture. Also Cryptic could very well find out that Having Less PVE content for them was a Mistake and release a whole Slew of of them in a Content Update while keeping in the Spirit of the Klingons.

The truth of the mater is that we don't know how it's going to be handled and taken care of yet. I could end up loving the Klingon side just as it is, even though I'm not a fan of PVP.


Man I hope you are right, because I want to basically play a PvE Klingon.

[Elboulevardo]

i really dislike the mentality of "first impressions stick" when it comes to an MMO in development. What have we truly seen so far? all we have is a website with a bunch of information (perhaps not the best organized), some videos of gameplay footage, interviews, tidbits, ASSUMPTIONS, and a whole bunch of other lil wing dings but the one thing we dont have yet...oh im sure you all guessed it

FINAL PRODUCT

and the best part is, even that final product is not FINAL in that sense, the MMO will continue to have content added and whatever we all see on day 1, im sure will be different by end of year 1, year 2, and so forth

point is, if you're truly willing to hang on to your first impression based on a lack of information, simply because Cryptic's PR cycle is not getting it out to you fast enough, then you're only hurting yourself

just cuz the klingon information has been secondary to federation on the PR cycle, doesnt mean the content doesnt exist...the PvE experience wont be the same on the klingon side but who's to say it wont be fun? whos to say that the PvP content wont have some story content involved with it?

try and be patient fellas, i know its easy to take the doomsayer route, but we're almost to the finish line, lets see what happens when the game comes out...im sure by then there will be a whole new slew of things to complain about...but at least it will be about REAL in game stuff, and not a bunch of assumptions and theories

:D

[Desterion]

What I see, is no information on klingons and pvp. I don't care if you think it's part of their PR campaign or whatever excuse they try and give us. The bottom line is, they don't have any confidence in it. At least not enough to tell us about it until they have to. Meaning we're going to get a hastily produced, less planned development for these 2 key areas. Unless the pvp system they unveil is mindblowing, we may be looking at Starfleet Online.

[ODST_General]

The problem many of you in this thread are having is this, you are jumping to conclusions on the Klingon's and how they are completely under developed with no such proof. What we have on Klingon's is really quite little at this point, We have that they will play different then the Federation since they will be more PvP based, and space combat will feel different for them.

No one has said they will not have PvE, or there is going to be such much less content when you play them. Just because they are a different faction or PR is doing its job and not releasing all info on the game to keep people interested. Does not mean that the Klingon faction is incomplete.

[Loekii]

What I see, is no information on klingons and pvp. I don't care if you think it's part of their PR campaign or whatever excuse they try and give us. The bottom line is, they don't have any confidence in it. At least not enough to tell us about it until they have to. Meaning we're going to get a hastily produced, lower quality development for these 2 key areas. Unless the pvp system they unveil is mindblowing, we may be looking at Starfleet Online.

So by your logic, they didn't have any confidence in Space, because they did not have information posted about it this time last year, or even early this year. :rolleyes:

The reason they are not talking about it, is because it is not complete --- just like they did not talk about Space last year.

The only talk about stuff when it has basically been completed -- especially given all the micro-scrutiny each word they use gets on these forums.

So the lack of a bunch of PvP info, is because they are still working on it, and not ready to talk about it.

[Vuk]

These guys at Cryptic aren't so different from us. They were in the business, they make games for a living. The Star Trek MMO license opened up and they said "HELL YES!" much the same way that we would. After all, when the opportunity of a lifetime hits you, you don't think about it and then say "no, no... I wouldn't be able to do it right".

It is possible that they had to agree to certain.... restrictions.... regarding timetable and such. While I have no real evidence of this, I just have this gut feeling that STO wasn't started as a business idea (like 99% of all other MMOs) but as a labor of fandom.



It brings to mind the saying , that their eyes were bigger than their stomaches.So , yes the title of the thread agrees with you. You're absolutely , correct in the second paragraph.



I dont think Cryptic MEANT for the game to be this way. I surmise in fact, that they would have liked to have had a fully featured Klingon faction. But its not in the cards. Not enough time. Not enough money. Not enough man power.

Regardless, I worry that this is an extremely bad sign when you start seeing that corners are being cut long before the game ever releases. Not good. Not good at all. :(

I absolutely agree, I truely believe they un-intentional set down this path . I will say that it was poor plan and due to lack of experience in the MMO field showing. I believe they're previous games while good , were developed as single faction games . CoH/CoV is a case where one was developed and then they had the luxury of developing CoV. The habits developed in planning these games and CO , led to this . You can see it in how they approach the PR cycle. In all fairness and i've mentioned this before , they basically have to develop Klingon lore from almost scratch , as they will for any future factions. It should have all been released in conjunction . I blame the process and in-experience.

[Desterion]

The problem many of you in this thread are having is this, you are jumping to conclusions on the Klingon's and how they are completely under developed with no such proof. What we have on Klingon's is really quite little at this point, We have that they will play different then the Federation since they will be more PvP based, and space combat will feel different for them.

No one has said they will not have PvE, or there is going to be such much less content when you play them. Just because they are a different faction or PR is doing its job and not releasing all info on the game to keep people interested. Does not mean that the Klingon faction is incomplete.



Just because they aren't showing us anything doesn't mean it's complete either. It just means we've got about 4 klingon ships seen in the game. The did say there will be less pve for klingons because they are making them pvp focused. I've followed a lot of MMOs being developed, and it's the same with all of them. If they're not showing you something, it's typically because there isn't anything to show. You seem to be jumping to conclusions that they have equal content as the federation, without any proof.

[Vuk]

The problem many of you in this thread are having is this, you are jumping to conclusions on the Klingon's and how they are completely under developed with no such proof. What we have on Klingon's is really quite little at this point, We have that they will play different then the Federation since they will be more PvP based, and space combat will feel different for them.

No one has said they will not have PvE, or there is going to be such much less content when you play them. Just because they are a different faction or PR is doing its job and not releasing all info on the game to keep people interested. Does not mean that the Klingon faction is incomplete.

I chalk this up to you being un-aware that Cryptic_Gozer in IRC stated that there will be no episodic Klingon mission and will instead contain more PvP.

[macallen]

All MMO's are on a tight deadline, that's a fact of the business. At some point it needs to stop costing money and start making it, and no matter when that is it's not soon enough for the money men, whomever they are.

Also let me add the old saying "No plan ever survives contact with the enemy." The game Cryptic is going to release looks nothing like what they had on white boards 3 years ago. It can't. When they were planning it, they had no idea what they were getting into.

Every day they run into issues where they really want something in the game but have to decide between it and something they really need. Every day decisions are made about something that was planned to be there but won't be.

It's the nature of the beast and true of any consumer product, be it a game or application.

The game Cryptic releases is going to be the best they could make in the time they had to make it, with the resources they had available. The SECOND it goes gold, before it goes live, the team is already working on the first content expansion to put back in the things they wanted on release.

Again, the nature of the beast.

What we get is what we get, we like it or don't, and no amount of whining is going to change it. My recommendation is the following:
1. Stay here, listen to what the devs say, keep the conjecture to a minimum and doomsaying to zero, then hit the beta hard.
2. Blow it off, go on to TOR or whatever next MMO you're watching and give up, because STO isn't going to be for you if you hate it now and haven't even seen it yet.

I hate Eve. I always have. Mostly, I hate it for being 80% of the game I love. I can't not argue that it's hugely successful and 100% the game CCP wanted to make. STO will be the same way. It will be 100% of the game Cryptic wants. If it's not 100% of the game you want to play, then vote with your dollar and your feet.

My 2 gold-pressed latinum.

[Desterion]

I chalk this up to you being un-aware that Cryptic_Gozer in IRC stated that there will be no episodic Klingon mission and will instead contain more PvP.

I wasn't aware of that. Now i'm going from annoyed to ****ed. Jesus christ are they even trying with klingons if they're not going to even bother making episodes for them? They must be predicting an 85/15 split or something. I like pvp, but I also like pve. If they don't get good large scale pvp going, like capturable planets/systems/stations and the like, I don't see myself playing Starfleet online for very long.

[shadows802]

The intial statement is true, that cryptic did bite off more than they can chew. A side from plugging us in, ala matrix style into a star trek universe any developer would run into the same problem. There's been so many episodes books movies and conventions that Star trek is a matured universe(im refencing the lore and all of star trek, not neccesarily the fans of)

Edit: rethought my position on klingons

[Zepath]

Zinc talking to EurogamerMMO:

....playing Klingon will be "drastically different" to playing Federation, and lack "the full-on story-driven" questing. This may sound similar to Monster Play in Lord of the Rings Online - which opens at level 10 and offers a 'bad' faction for 'good' avatars to war with - but the Klingons will offer more.

"We'll be offering full-on character advancement: you will create a Klingon player, you will have his ship, he will level up," he said.

"The content that they will be experiencing is a lot more focused on PvP - fighting the Federation, fighting House versus House within the Klingon empire. So it is a full-on character with advancement, with items, with bridge officers as well. So it's a lot more than the Monster Play."

[SOURCE - October 9th 2009] (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/sto-klingons-require-unlocking-cryptic)

[Bedlam66]

Man I hope you are right, because I want to basically play a PvE Klingon.
Me too. I'm sure once beta starts up they are going to have 15,000 Threads calling for more PVE Klingon Content. Over at CO they responded rather quickly to the fact that there wasn't enough Content in certain areas and put out more in less then a month.

I'm almost sure that if there is enough Outcry over a lack of PVE content for Klingons AFTER people start playing it, then they'll get on it and do somthing about it.

[Piotrek]

Wait a minute are you saying i cant be part of the dominion in this game at launch WTH!!!

[JacobFlowers]

Well "Former" employees are always the best sources for factual and unbiased information. :rolleyes:

I think overall, the problem has been and will be that people have a simply assumed far too much, and now that they are finding out that point, they are thinking Cryptic is making an 'unfinished' game.


Depends on the circumstance. In this case, we may very well be able to get mroe information from a 'former cryptic' employee than naught. Everyone at Cryptic thus far is really good at evading questions, providing sugared PR responses, or just retort "i can say this because so and so will smack me'.

In anycase, I just want to contend that it is posible to be able to get factual and potentiall unbiased comment on STO from former Cryptic employees.

Ive seen you say this stuff in other threads over and over again in different ways.

Ive never seen someone hit the nail on the head so many times in a row. I agree that this is exactly what has happened here.

I dont think Cryptic MEANT for the game to be this way. I surmise in fact, that they would have liked to have had a fully featured Klingon faction. But its not in the cards. Not enough time. Not enough money. Not enough man power.

Regardless, I worry that this is an extremely bad sign when you start seeing that corners are being cut long before the game ever releases. Not good. Not good at all. :(

It's not so much that Cryptic bit off more than they can chew.

It is all a matter of circumstance now. Any publisher who wanted to take on the Star Trek IP has a DAUNTING task, and probably the only studio with resources to pull off an uber ST game would be Blizzard. (think about it).

According to Peregrin_Falcon, Cryptic was promised 10 million bucks by Atari if they manage to release the game by Q1 2010. So yea, there are deadlines. It just now them trying to get this out the door.

Probably a "release... and build on it later tactic". I just hope for Cryptic's sake it isn't a 'release and fix it later' tactic like what with CO. They have said they learned from their mistakes there, so we shall see. In anycase, the game won't have a lot of cool things we want, nor will it be able to reach its greatest potential for an 'at launch' game. But we have no choice. Nothing we say will cause Cryptic to change any plans drastically. Things will stay on course, and we just have to hope for the best.

[Peregrine_Falcon]

According to Peregrin_Falcon, Cryptic was promised 10 million bucks by Atari if they manage to release the game by Q1 2010. So yea, there are deadlines. It just now them trying to get this out the door.
Just to clarify:

I saw a post by someone else that said that Atari has offered Cryptic a US$10 million bonus if they launch STO on or before March 26th, 2010. While I do believe that this is a true statement, I have as of yet been unable to verify it, so I can not vouch for its accuracy.

I'm still searching info from Atari's shareholder reports in an attempt to confirm this, but man... I hate reading stock reports and spread sheets.



Edit: Ok, here's what I have been able to find. GameIndustry.biz reported that, "Additionally the performance-related bonus could see as much as USD 20 million paid in cash or stock if Champions Online and Star Trek's 2010-11 revenues outperform set undisclosed targets, payable in August 2010 and May 2011."

That's the best info that I've been able to find so far. It does not have the detail that I'd like so I'm still searching.

Link to source article here. (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/atari-acquires-cryptic-studios)



Second Edit: Ok, here's what I was able to find on Atari's corporate website:

Infogrames' offer for all of the issued and outstanding equity of Cryptic is comprised of the following:
USD 27.6 million upfront cash payment at closing;
A potential earn-out mechanism for a maximum amount estimated as of today at USD 27.5 million
USD 17.8 million to be paid in cash, USD 6.7 million estimated as of today to be paid in Infogrames shares and USD 3.0 million estimated as of today to be paid to holders of Cryptic stock options either in Infogrames shares or in cash.
Earn-out is based on the completion of 2010/2011 revenues targets of Champions Online and Star Trek Online, half of the earn-out in relation to Champions Online online revenues being paid on June 30, 2010, the other half on March 1st, 2011;
a bonus for a maximum amount of USD 20 million is to be paid in cash or Infogrames stock (at the option of Infogrames, subject to the shareholders' approval), if Champions Online and Star Trek Online's 2010/2011 online revenues over perform revenues targets. This bonus is to be paid on August 2010 and on May 2011.
Once again, this does not confirm the claim of USD 10 million on or about March 26th, 2010, as the full text of the revenue targets document is undisclosed. However, even if the information that I had is not completely correct, it does indicate something similar.

Link to source document here. (http://corporate.atari.com/event/120909_Cryptic_PR_final_GB_def.pdf) Please note that this document is a PDF file, which due to securities laws may not be accessible in your country. The above quote can be found on page 2 of this 4 page document.

[Elboulevardo]

thats some interesting facts about the whole contract terms between atari and cryptic. If nothing else, it clearly indicates that Cryptic doesnt exactly have the creative freedom to do what they really want to do with the game...at least up till launch

money talks, no other way to put it.

that said, im confident Cryptic will make the game good enough at launch to meet these goals, get all the extra cash, and ideally expand their dev team to really move this game into the next echelon!

on the point about klingon info vs klingon content incomplete...it seems more likely to me that the Klingon content is "complete" as Cryptic would define it...may not meet our initial expectations, but thankfully this is an MMO and when the game product is in all our hands, and we all (or most) try out the Klingon side of things, we can give Cryptic the legitimate feedback they need to fill in any gaps.

making negative assumptions about it right now doesnt do a whole lot of good...while i cannot argue that it seems likely there will be very little PvE content based on the the references to Zinc and Gozer, it does not in any way mean that the Content that is in at launch for Klingons will not be complete

[Desterion]

everything we've seen so far gives way to making a "negative assumption". Drastically reduced development time. Rushed production in order to get bonuses, no information about pvp/klingons then that they're going to get reduced pve. A 10 mil bonus or any kind, will put them ahead with an inferior product. If they delay it a few months for a better game, they won't make that money back. So they'l shove a less complete product out the door and Cryptic wins while the fans lose.

[Elboulevardo]

its a tough spot for them to be in im sure. They have a publisher in Atari which, through cetain negotiations, have dictated certain terms/incentives for Cryptic to meet.

so what do they really do? Delay the game and potentially not meet those goals and not get rewarded with a huge bolstering of their cofers? Will they draw in that many MORE subscribers by delaying the game another 6 months to get the Klingons up to where many people feel they should be at launch (along with other stuff they've cut out). Will those potential additional subs be enough to equal what they would have gott had they met the goals?

or do they Meet the goals, get the extra funds, and work on getting the content that didnt make the timeline cut in ASAP with a bolstered bank account and development team. How do we even know that if Cryptic meets those goals, if the money will be used to increase the development team and decrease the time it would take to release the "missing" Klingon content? its perhaps a reasonable assumption that they would, but not a guarantee by any means.

Rock and a hard place for sure. And Desterion, i totally get what you're saying, and im not trying to tell you you're not allowed to have negative opinion, i just think its a bit premature that's all. If i were in your shoes being pro klingon and passionate about that faction, id probably feel a little urked too.

My point really is that until we have the product in hand, and are playing it live, we cant really truly know what is good, what is good enough, what is not enough, and so forth.

[Osias]

I've said it before i will say it again.

There is no such thing as "Complete" for an MMO. MMOs are constantly being developed and made better, Constantly getting new content and new features.

If STO is not something you want to play at launch then don't play it at launch. Wait a few months and see if they have got it to a level that you find acceptable.

Don't naysay them just because they've got deadlines to meet. That's just inconsiderate.

[Desterion]

Cryptic needs to realize that SWTOR is right around the corner after their release. If klingons aren't happy, there's going to be an exodus of star trek fans to star wars. I've been through a lot of MMO launches. When developers go off assuming everything will be fine if they rush the game, the game turns out to be less than stellar or successful. Age of Conan and Warhammer online are the 2 recent examples. AoC had amazing hopes riding on it, and the game failed miserably because they rushed it and figured content could wait. Basically for klingons, the game is now riding on if Cryptic can pull out an amazing pvp system. Battlegrounds might keep me interested for a month or 2, but if they don't have a good large scale system, i'm packing my bags.

[Manx]

everything we've seen so far gives way to making a "negative assumption". Drastically reduced development time. Rushed production in order to get bonuses, no information about pvp/klingons then that they're going to get reduced pve. A 10 mil bonus or any kind, will put them ahead with an inferior product. If they delay it a few months for a better game, they won't make that money back. So they'l shove a less complete product out the door and Cryptic wins while the fans lose.

Addressing the highlighted points:

Reduced development time? Reduced from what? We used to think the game was due out this year, so if anything, the development time has been longer than expected.

We do have info about Klingons and PvP; that info states that they will be covered in detail later in the PR cycle. This is not an oversight, it is a marketing plan that has likely been laid out for a year or more.

No MMO is ever complete, therefore no MMO is ever 'more complete'. No matter what Cryptic does, there will always be something that someone feels should have been included at launch but wasn't. That does not make the game incomplete; it just means some things made it and some didn't.

With Cryptic's habit of releasing regular free updates, this is less of a problem for their games than it is for typical MMOs.

[Desterion]

They call it part of the PR campaign and you guys all lap it up. What it really means, is that they haven't thought it all through yet and it's not done. Warhammer finalized it's pvp stuff about 2 months before release. It it turned out to be a total mess that wasn't fun.

[ShadowStalker]

They call it part of the PR campaign and you guys all lap it up. What it really means, is that they haven't thought it all through yet and it's not done. Warhammer finalized it's pvp stuff about 2 months before release. It it turned out to be a total mess that wasn't fun.

Didnt knew you work at cryptic, if you want be this negative and only think of the worst case scenario be my guest but it would be logical to wait till they start the PR campaign about the klingons.
When that happens we can all see if they have treaten the klingons as a sort of monster play or that they developed a system for the klingons that is mind blowing.
Remember that they said in interviews that they have a few things in place what should be mind blowing.
Maybe that is the reason why there isnt much known about the klingons :p
Just guessing like all of you guys but see you can also try a positive angle for the lack on klingon pr campaign

[DukeNukemTX]

The lack of intelligence here is saddening. Go look at the releases for Halo, WoW, ect. They NEVER released info of any kind till the company was ready. I can guarantee that Cryptic has a huge calender on one of the walls in their offices with EVERYTHING planned out to year day and hour for STO, by now 90-95% of the game is done, the other 5-10% comes for beta testing.
The vast majority of the game info will not be released untill the game is finished with the Beta and goes gold. All this childish "Gimme now, GIMME NOW" b.s. is just that, childish and b.s.

[majicebe]

So I've been watching STO for a long time now, though I have registered on the forums until recently. The more I read about the game, the more I get the feeling Cryptic has bitten off more than they can chew. Not that their incapable of making a good game, or incapable of making a good Star Trek game, but that trying to launch with two factions is going to be a mistake.

In general, I would say that an MMO should have two factions at launch. However, based on what we have learned about how the two factions will work, it souds like they've spent way too much time on the Federation, and way too little time on the Klingons. While launching with two factions can be a good thing if they are both fully developed, launching with one whole faction and one half faction is only going to hurt the game's rep. Sadly, first impressions tend to stick, and that means that a bad rep from the beginning is going to be hard to shake.

If I were Cryptic, I would just launch with the Federation. I know that is going to make alot of people upset, but I would make the Klingons the first major update after launch, and I would make sure they have a game just as rich as the Federation. Its better to wait a little bit and get it right than to rush things and get it wrong. Thanks for your comments.

What's the point of a post like this? We have almost no solid information about the Klingons, almost no information has been released, the only information that has been released has probably been misconstrued, and you making a big dumb post like "more than they can chew" is just attempting to be more destructive than anything. How about we wait for more information before we make grand sweeping comments about the abilities of the Cryptic team based on maybe 1 or 2 sentences of information that may or may not have been stated accurately?

Just a thought.

[Desterion]

The lack of intelligence here is saddening. Go look at the releases for Halo, WoW, ect. They NEVER released info of any kind till the company was ready. I can guarantee that Cryptic has a huge calender on one of the walls in their offices with EVERYTHING planned out to year day and hour for STO, by now 90-95% of the game is done, the other 5-10% comes for beta testing.
The vast majority of the game info will not be released untill the game is finished with the Beta and goes gold. All this childish "Gimme now, GIMME NOW" b.s. is just that, childish and b.s.

you sure seem to know a lot for a guy that hopped on last week.

[DukeNukemTX]

you sure seem to know a lot for a guy that hopped on last week.

Its called experience.

Take everything you have read from all the sources about STO, Compare it to time tables, previews, and dev discussions from previous games (Halo, WoW, Mass Effect, ect) and you can come to a well informed and logical conclusion. Not this "The Sky is falling!" stupidity.

[Desterion]

Its called experience.

halo and Wow sure is some great experience for the MMO world.

[majicebe]

They call it part of the PR campaign and you guys all lap it up. What it really means, is that they haven't thought it all through yet and it's not done. Warhammer finalized it's pvp stuff about 2 months before release. It it turned out to be a total mess that wasn't fun.

They were going to release WAR 6 months earlier than they did, but there were enough issues across the board for them to pull it out of beta and go back to development. I think it's a good thing they did; for as long as I played WAR, pvp was by far the most fun part of that game.

[DukeNukemTX]

halo and Wow sure is some great experience for the MMO world.

examples for game devlopment across the board.

[duckforceone]

well if they truly stated that klingons will not have pve episodic content, i'm severely dissapointed

sure i can understand that klingons get alot more pvp theme, but i'm a pve player and very casual pvp... WAR was the first game to truly get me to pvp, because it was casual. And yes i ended up spending far more time in pvp than pve, but i always had the option for storyline and levelling all the way to 40 just in pve...

if this game is going to require me to grind pve to get to max level, without doing pvp, then i guess i'm going federation instead...

i want story driven missions, pve kind... if they don't include those on the klingon side, well that might just lose my interest.

[Loekii]

you sure seem to know a lot for a guy that hopped on last week.

halo and Wow sure is some great experience for the MMO world.

That doesn't disprove what he said.

Now if you can demonstrate numerous examples where developers told the forums everything, or even a bunch of stuff before they were ready, that would be a different story.

[Elboulevardo]

That doesn't disprove what he said.

Now if you can demonstrate numerous examples where developers told the forums everything, or even a bunch of stuff before they were ready, that would be a different story.


excellent point...

this assumed direct relationship of "lack of info = incomplete content" is often puzzling. There is no basis for fact that the content, while perhaps lacking on the PvE side, is going to be incomplete as a whole. If there is a lack of PvE content (relative to Feds) who's to say the PvP content wont be enhanced?

if you honestly expect the devs to spill the beans about every little nugget of information about this game prior to release, then all i can say is you're only serving to create greater disappointment for yourself

stating that the PR cycle answer is just a cover for the dev's not actually thinking things through is just an assumption, like the many many assumptions we've seen come flying through threads like this since the day they announced Klingon play will be largely PvP based

just gotta wait till game is released to really know

[Jaqknife]

I think the main problem here is that I believe they are working under a very tight timetable, the license for this title has been out there for quite some time, and there is probably some pressure to release it sooner rather than later (not that I agree with that approach for various and sundry reasons). That being said Cryptic has a good framework for an engaging MMO, but I think that their work post launch is really going to be a determining factor as to whether or not this game truly lives up to the potential of the IP.

Well said. This is my suspicion as well I beleive for whatever reason they are under a strict timetable to release this game whether it is fully fleshed out or not.

It's the only reason I can think of as to why the Klingons are being given the short end of the stick on this. And if they do consider the Klingons a "finished" faction then they should just change the name of the game to Starfleet Online and come out with Klingon Empire Online later or wait for Bioware to do Star Trek right 10 years from now.

[Zepath]

well if they truly stated that klingons will not have pve episodic content, i'm severely dissapointed


Page four (4) of this thread ... about the middle of the posts ... I quoted it for you and provided a link to the source.

[JacobFlowers]

Just to clarify:

I saw a post by someone else that said that Atari has offered Cryptic a US$10 million bonus if they launch STO on or before March 26th, 2010. While I do believe that this is a true statement, I have as of yet been unable to verify it, so I can not vouch for its accuracy.

I'm still searching info from Atari's shareholder reports in an attempt to confirm this, but man... I hate reading stock reports and spread sheets.



Edit: Ok, here's what I have been able to find. GameIndustry.biz reported that, "Additionally the performance-related bonus could see as much as USD 20 million paid in cash or stock if Champions Online and Star Trek's 2010-11 revenues outperform set undisclosed targets, payable in August 2010 and May 2011."

That's the best info that I've been able to find so far. It does not have the detail that I'd like so I'm still searching.

Link to source article here. (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/atari-acquires-cryptic-studios)



Second Edit: Ok, here's what I was able to find on Atari's corporate website:

Infogrames' offer for all of the issued and outstanding equity of Cryptic is comprised of the following:
USD 27.6 million upfront cash payment at closing;
A potential earn-out mechanism for a maximum amount estimated as of today at USD 27.5 million
USD 17.8 million to be paid in cash, USD 6.7 million estimated as of today to be paid in Infogrames shares and USD 3.0 million estimated as of today to be paid to holders of Cryptic stock options either in Infogrames shares or in cash.
Earn-out is based on the completion of 2010/2011 revenues targets of Champions Online and Star Trek Online, half of the earn-out in relation to Champions Online online revenues being paid on June 30, 2010, the other half on March 1st, 2011;
a bonus for a maximum amount of USD 20 million is to be paid in cash or Infogrames stock (at the option of Infogrames, subject to the shareholders' approval), if Champions Online and Star Trek Online's 2010/2011 online revenues over perform revenues targets. This bonus is to be paid on August 2010 and on May 2011.
Once again, this does not confirm the claim of USD 10 million on or about March 26th, 2010, as the full text of the revenue targets document is undisclosed. However, even if the information that I had is not completely correct, it does indicate something similar.

Link to source document here. (http://corporate.atari.com/event/120909_Cryptic_PR_final_GB_def.pdf) Please note that this document is a PDF file, which due to securities laws may not be accessible in your country. The above quote can be found on page 2 of this 4 page document.

Man, I need to pay better attention to where I post and to check back...

Anywya, I just saw your response here, and thanks for the digging. I actually found one of the articles myself here: http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/43440/Atari-Acquires-Cryptic-Studios which is a restate of what you mentioned.

I wonder why Cryptic didn't step in and correct us.