Will there be a PVE Klingon Experience

[NeoWolf]

So most of us have read zincs latest interview over at Eurogamer.net and it raised a few questions.

We now know the Klingons will have a slightly longer tutorial experience than the Federation, which is fine.

But it has as a PVE player left me with one burning question based on this reply

Craig Zinkievich: No, we'll be offering full-on character advancement: you will create a Klingon player, you will have his ship, he will level up. The content that they will be experiencing is a lot more focused on PvP - fighting the Federation, fighting House versus House within the Klingon empire. So it is a full-on character with advancement, with items, with bridge officers as well. So it's a lot more than the Monster Play

And that is, how much of a full on character experience will we get klingon side? Will it be possible to have a purely PVE klingon experience.. or will PVP be a reuired and unavoidable aspect of klingon play?

[Lt.Renak]

So most of us have read zincs latest interview over at Eurogamer.net and it raised a few questions.

We now know the Klingons will have a slightly longer tutorial experience than the Federation, which is fine.

But it has as a PVE player left me with one burning question based on this reply



And that is, how much of a full on character experience will we get klingon side? Will it be possible to have a purely PVE klingon experience.. or will PVP be a reuired and unavoidable aspect of klingon play?

very important for our fleet, too. we are all pve players and klingons and we want to play pvp when we want to.

[phifur]

Yes I would like this question to be answer too. I was planning on playing a Klingon Carrier and doing a lot of PVE and a little PVP. I don't want to be force to play PVP if I don't want to.

[lajkalove]

realy good question there. I hope you can play as a klingon and just do pve and some pvp when you want to but i havent read or heard mouch about how klingons will work

[The.Grand.Nagus]

Obviously there will be a(key word) PvE game. However, the question is will Klingon players be required(another key word) to PvP to advance.

[Elboulevardo]

i do recall Zinc stating in a past dev blog or otherwise that PVP will be completely at the discretion of the player, if they dont want to see it, they never have to...im pretty sure that was a blanket statement, then again lots of stuff changes during a dev cycle so who knows

valid question, but my guess is it will be optional, and there will be enough other play experiences to keep the honourable klingons separated from the dishonourable raiding counterparts in their faction :P

[Musterion]

I really, really hope Klingons get a sizeable PVE experience, as there will undoubtedly be Klingon players who just want to PVE.

[Loekii]

I really, really hope Klingons get a sizeable PVE experience, as there will undoubtedly be Klingon players who just want to PVE.

I agree.

I am hoping that it might be something less benign, like:

KDF PVE Content = ~90% FED PvE Content


Perhaps, like not having as much 'Exploration' and 'non-Combat' based content, but instead replacing that gap with PvP based content (House vs. House, etc).

What I worry about is that its more like 40% of FED PvE content, with PvP supposed to be filling the gap. WARHAMMER discovered that even PvPers get tired of just Pvping, and want a rich PvE game to dabble with and take breaks.

[Bastrol]

This worries me as well, I thought becoming a Klingon explorer would be alot of fun. How much content will they have for this and for PvE is uncertain now. I also recall that while flying around outside the neutral zone you can have the option of no PvP but if its a major part of being a Klingon can you avoid it if you want? Probably but will there be enough content for a good game experience.

[Commander_Nate]

Sure there will. What's stopping you from going out and exploring and then firing on everything you come across? I'm certain there will be many opportunities for this whether on your own or via missions.

[Bastrol]

Sure there will. What's stopping you from going out and exploring and then firing on everything you come across? I'm certain there will be many opportunities for this whether on your own or via missions.

This brought a smile to my face, thanks Cmdr!

[Faerlzress]

You can PvE all you want. Probably with similar gameplay like the Feds. What it sounds like is that you won't have the episodic content. You are going to have to make your own story on the Klingon side.

I would also expect that they are going to move you towards PvP. That is what Klingons do after all.

There may not even be Star Fleet pve ships in a newbie area. You might have to go into the PvP neutral zone to fight them. The main combat they did mention was House conflicts. So maybe the Klingon PvE will focus on the internal fight within the Klingon empire.

[Commander_Nate]

You can PvE all you want. Probably with similar gameplay like the Feds. What it sounds like is that you won't have the episodic content. You are going to have to make your own story on the Klingon side.

I would also expect that they are going to move you towards PvP. That is what Klingons do after all.

There may not even be Star Fleet pve ships in a newbie area. You might have to go into the PvP neutral zone to fight them. The main combat they did mention was House conflicts. So maybe the Klingon PvE will focus on the internal fight within the Klingon empire.

I doubt that as well. I'm sure there will be at least a few story arcs dealing with the Klingons going to war against some newley discovered NPC race or going off to avenge some ancient wrong committed way back in Klingon history. There's stuff to go on here and it's not that hard to think of things for a race like the Klingons.

This brought a smile to my face, thanks Cmdr!
You're welcome.

[Lt.Renak]

You can PvE all you want. Probably with similar gameplay like the Feds. What it sounds like is that you won't have the episodic content. You are going to have to make your own story on the Klingon side.

I would also expect that they are going to move you towards PvP. That is what Klingons do after all.

There may not even be Star Fleet pve ships in a newbie area. You might have to go into the PvP neutral zone to fight them. The main combat they did mention was House conflicts. So maybe the Klingon PvE will focus on the internal fight within the Klingon empire.

To like the Klingons as a Star Trek Fan does not mean that everybody who likes Klingons also likes to play PvP in MMORPGS. I could not understand the decision if there would be no episodes for klingon players. Some of the best Star Trek Episodes ever are Klingon stories. Cryptic should be aware of it in my opinion. Klingons got more religion, more history, more tradition.

[gair22]

I'm going to assume that it will be more PvP centric, but I don't see how they wouldn't include a ton of PVE content as well. I'd like to know that it is highly PVE focused too though. I don't want to be forced to PVP.

[Faerlzress]

To like the Klingons as a Star Trek Fan does not mean that everybody who likes Klingons also likes to play PvP in MMORPGS. I could not understand the decision if there would be no episodes for klingon players. Some of the best Star Trek Episodes ever are Klingon stories. Cryptic should be aware of it in my opinion. Klingons got more religion, more history, more tradition.

This is the best time to speak up. Just keep posting what you are posting.

[apexearth]

I hope theres plenty of PvE. I'm thinking there will be, it just won't be as story-driven like the Federation story line seems to be.

[Loekii]

Sure there will. What's stopping you from going out and exploring and then firing on everything you come across? I'm certain there will be many opportunities for this whether on your own or via missions.

For myself, its about the hand crafted missions.

Most people do not find 'grinding mobs' most of the time to be acceptable, so I don't think it would work in this case either.

It really comes down to how much hand crafting content they are planning on providing the KDF faction.

If its only 50% of what the Federation has, I think there will be issues -- and the Klingons will be considered 'half finished'. PVP is entertaining, but not as the Primary form of Content in a MMORPG.

[funnystuffz]

Hopefully, for the Klingon players out there, PvE is available just as readily as PvP. It will be a let down if Klingons are pigeon holed in to the one style of play where the Feds are getting a rich content experience whilst also having the ability to PvP

[Varrangian]

For myself, its about the hand crafted missions.

Most people do not find 'grinding mobs' most of the time to be acceptable, so I don't think it would work in this case either.

It really comes down to how much hand crafting content they are planning on providing the KDF faction.

If its only 50% of what the Federation has, I think there will be issues -- and the Klingons will be considered 'half finished'. PVP is entertaining, but not as the Primary form of Content in a MMORPG.


And this is really the point. Why include the Klingon faction if they are not given equal content consideration as the Federation. I personally would be more likely to buy STO without the Klingon content, if I knew when it was introduced it would be introduced with the same attention to detail.

[Commander_Nate]

For myself, its about the hand crafted missions.

Most people do not find 'grinding mobs' most of the time to be acceptable, so I don't think it would work in this case either.

It really comes down to how much hand crafting content they are planning on providing the KDF faction.

If its only 50% of what the Federation has, I think there will be issues -- and the Klingons will be considered 'half finished'. PVP is entertaining, but not as the Primary form of Content in a MMORPG.


I didn't mean it in a grinding sense. I meant there would be some sort of political/cultural background explaining who the said race was and why the Klingons were in conflict with them. Then there would be a well thought out string of missions with the ultimate goal of defeating said race.

I didn't mean find Race X, kill 10 destroyers or 5 battleships, etc.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

And this is really the point. Why include the Klingon faction if they are not given equal content consideration as the Federation. I personally would be more likely to buy STO without the Klingon content, if I knew when it was introduced it would be introduced with the same attention to detail.

I agree. I would prefer Klingons be added in an expansion than be half done on release.

[Exist-nl-]

Im sure there will be a lot more content for the Klingons.
If they wanted to have an faction pure for pvp they would have taken the romulans to be playble.

[Faerlzress]

It looks like it would be a good time for the devs to release some Klingon info details on their play differences.

[Varrangian]

I agree. I would prefer Klingons be added in an expansion than be half done on release.

I have to say, I've been very supportive and have understanding of most of Cryptic's decisions. I even believe they deserve a great deal of slack when it comes to certain things. But if what Tamgros said is correct and this is something being spurred on by the CBS whip to rush the game out the door, they should admit they've bitten off more than they can chew with a two faction launch and just work on perfecting the Federation content before adding in a half attempt at Klingons.

If they launch the game with a poorly conceptualized second faction it bodes very poorly for any future faction expansions.

[Swordopolis]

I agree. I would prefer Klingons be added in an expansion than be half done on release.

I would rather that release was pushed back than launching with only a single faction. If they need another month or two to iron out problems, then Q1 2010 can go stuff it.

[Varrangian]

I would rather that release was pushed back than launching with only a single faction. If they need another month or two to iron out problems, then Q1 2010 can go stuff it.

From what Tamgros has hinted at they are not going to get more time, it is a decision being pushed, by outside powers. Regardless this is all hearsay.

The reality is that from everything we've been hearing the Klingons do not appear to be a real faction at all. I would hate to see them launch with the Federation as a fully functioning faction and then a pathetic nod to a faction in the Klingons.

[Lt.Renak]

@ Grand Nagus: fully agreed

[The.Grand.Nagus]

I would rather that release was pushed back than launching with only a single faction. If they need another month or two to iron out problems, then Q1 2010 can go stuff it.

I would prefer that as well. I simply meant that I would prefer one faction to one and a half.

[Musterion]

The reality is that from everything we've been hearing the Klingons do not appear to be a real faction at all. I would hate to see them launch with the Federation as a fully functioning faction and then a pathetic nod to a faction in the Klingons.

Very much agreed :(

[Huutini]

I still like the fact, that they try to create two different playing experiences. Lets face it: Klingons are way more suited for more PvP oriented gameplay anyway. And as stated: there will be MORE PvP Gameplay to the Klingons, not ONLY. I like the idea. And frankly: it just makes me more eager to try out the Klingons first. Fighting other Klingons and Federation players! What else would a Klingon do? Beam down on some sunshine planet to check out the distress signal from some cute, furry, pacifistic scientists? :D

Seriously, where are all the "immersion!!!" criers from the admiral-threads now? The way cryptic is planning the Klingons now is far deeper in the immersion than the episodic stuff the Federation gets. As I said: I adore the idea and am really looking forward to it.

[Varrangian]

I still like the fact, that they try to create two different playing experiences. Lets face it: Klingons are way more suited for more PvP oriented gameplay anyway. And as stated: there will be MORE PvP Gameplay to the Klingons, not ONLY. I like the idea. And frankly: it just makes me more eager to try out the Klingons first. Fighting other Klingons and Federation players! What else would a Klingon do? Beam down on some sunshine planet to check out the distress signal from some cute, furry, pacifistic scientists? :D

Seriously, where are all the "immersion!!!" criers from the admiral-threads now? The way cryptic is planning the Klingons now is far deeper in the immersion than the episodic stuff the Federation gets. As I said: I adore the idea and am really looking forward to it.

No, PvP is not the same as combat. PvP means players fighting players, if this is even 50% of the required content for the Klingons it drastically limits that factions appeal to player. Most people who play MMO's like a blend of content, by making the Klingons more PvP oriented all they would do is guarantee that the faction is only populated by the hardest core PvPers.

There is nothing immersive about PvP. While I participate in it in games and understand that those who enjoy it even more than myself are not knuckle draggers, there is nothing immersive about having a 14 year old who has all the time in the world to level his character, crew and ship tell me to "get a clue noob" because I have outside responsibilities that prevent me from being as competitive at PvP. This is a game after all, no one is going to be there to make sure all PvP is conducted with honor (as would be immersive).

When PvP is a choice it is a perfectly fine play style. When it is forced upon you to progress your character it is just as limited and stale as any other forced play style.

[jason24]

i've got a feeling that they will release the Klingon side with whatever they have now and then shortly after release there will be some Klingon content added as several patches.

From everything i have read tonight it sounds like Cryptic are being pushed to get STO released as soon as possibal and that might mean not all the Klingon content is complete.

just my opinion :)

[Desterion]

If you've only played wow for pvp, then you don't have a real comparison for immersive pvp. You've obviously never played games like eve online or dark age of camelot. You may find it fun to run around and collect herbs instead. There are plenty of players who like pve as well as pvp. By claiming pvp is not immersive, the only thing that comes to mind is a frog in a well.

[Desterion]

i've got a feeling that they will release the Klingon side with whatever they have now and then shortly after release there will be some Klingon content added as several patches.

From everything i have read tonight it sounds like Cryptic are being pushed to get STO released as soon as possibal and that might mean not all the Klingon content is complete.

just my opinion :)

That's what it's starting to sound like now sadly. I was hoping cryptic wouldn't get the huge pressure to push out an unfinished game but their interviews are painting this picture more. 2 of the biggest games of the last few years, Age of Conan and Warhammer online, both failed miserably because they got shoved out the door half baked.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

That's what it's starting to sound like now sadly. I was hoping cryptic wouldn't get the huge pressure to push out an unfinished game but their interviews are painting this picture more. 2 of the biggest games of the last few years, Age of Conan and Warhammer online, both failed miserably because they got shoved out the door half baked.

Unfortunately, this is something that most people just arent going to understand until its too late. As it is, you have a forum full of people that will defend to the death every single decision Cryptic makes, because they think it will help them get into beta. Unfortunately, once the game launches and some of the decisions werent good ones, it will be too late and the damage will have already been done to the game's rep.

[Varrangian]

If you've only played wow for pvp, then you don't have a real comparison for immersive pvp. You've obviously never played games like eve online or dark age of camelot. You may find it fun to run around and collect herbs instead. There are plenty of players who like pve as well as pvp. By claiming pvp is not immersive, the only thing that comes to mind is a frog in a well.

I've played both of those games for PvP and nothing about their PvP experience was immersive.

Where you fail to understand the argument is that this is not about "not liking PvP". I enjoy it just fine, what I don't like is being told that to play faction X I have to do nothing but (or next to nothing) PvP.

In DAOC PvP is not the only option for play for any single faction, that is where the difference lies.

[Desterion]

Unfortunately, this is something that most people just arent going to understand until its too late. As it is, you have a forum full of people that will defend to the death every single decision Cryptic makes, because they think it will help them get into beta. Unfortunately, once the game launches and some of the decisions werent good ones, it will be too late and the damage will have already been done to the game's rep.


god, the yes men are so infuriating. By them being loud and constantly heaping nothing but praise on a company, they cause the company to grow arrogant and detached. It's been a growing trend lately first, because people want to look like they're the perfect beta tester candidate. Sorry to say, but accepting everything a company does or saying it's a good thing results in a bad game with few ideas. I've seen far to many companies completely ignore their beta tester population trying to sound the alarm because they only want to hear from people that like what they did. Being a drone that laps up everything the company does is the worst quality for a beta tester. Of course, hating everything they do works the same way. Unless you've got a game like age of conan where after an hour of the beta, your conclusion is that they should start over from scratch.

[jason24]

Well what i hope for now is that all the threads tonight regarding this subject are going to make Cryptic start giving us more info on the Klingon Faction. Maybe then we will get a better feeling for what the Klingons entail

[Loekii]

I've played both of those games for PvP and nothing about their PvP experience was immersive.

Where you fail to understand the argument is that this is not about "not liking PvP". I enjoy it just fine, what I don't like is being told that to play faction X I have to do nothing but (or next to nothing) PvP.

In DAOC PvP is not the only option for play for any single faction, that is where the difference lies.

If PvP was an acceptable subtitution for the lack of content, then we would see it more common in games.

However, what we have seen is that games the 'run out of content' tend to fair poorly, regardless of the inclusion of PvP .

Age of Conan is a perfect example. Hundreds of thousands bought the game, and the quit when they discovered that the content basically ended a level 20. When people ran out of quality content, they did not rejoice that they could 'just PvP'. They quit instead -- and this is a game where there the fiction was much more Violent than Klingon fiction.

[BrokNor]

If PvP was an acceptable subtitution for the lack of content, then we would see it more common in games.

However, what we have seen is that games the 'run out of content' tend to fair poorly, regardless of the inclusion of PvP .

Age of Conan is a perfect example. Hundreds of thousands bought the game, and the quit when they discovered that the content basically ended a level 20. When people ran out of quality content, they did not rejoice that they could 'just PvP'. They quit instead -- and this is a game where there the fiction was much more Violent than Klingon fiction.

Nothing is more violent then a klingon.....QaPla!!!!!!

[Faerlzress]

I still like the fact, that they try to create two different playing experiences. Lets face it: Klingons are way more suited for more PvP oriented gameplay anyway. And as stated: there will be MORE PvP Gameplay to the Klingons, not ONLY. I like the idea. And frankly: it just makes me more eager to try out the Klingons first. Fighting other Klingons and Federation players! What else would a Klingon do? Beam down on some sunshine planet to check out the distress signal from some cute, furry, pacifistic scientists? :D

Seriously, where are all the "immersion!!!" criers from the admiral-threads now? The way cryptic is planning the Klingons now is far deeper in the immersion than the episodic stuff the Federation gets. As I said: I adore the idea and am really looking forward to it.

I totally agree.

[NeoWolf]

The issue I'm raising is not whether or not they are more suited for PVP, on that aspect I have no grievance at all.. they are a warlike culture, of course they are.

No, my issue is.. for those players who do not wish to PVP, or even predominantly PVP, will thier be "ENOUGH" Klingon content to allow them to have a majoritive or even ENTIRELY PVE Klingon experience if that is thier preferreed play style?

I mean, I do not know about others, but I was fully intending to have a Klingon alt, but I have no interest in pvp beyodn the odd brief bout of curiosity or boredom.

I do not like the notion that the only way I can have a fully PVE experience in a 2 faction (to begin) game is only with one side...thats just not appealing to me.

[Tamgros]

I do not like the notion that the only way I can have a fully PVE experience in a 2 faction (to begin) game is only with one side...thats just not appealing to me.

I think there is a possibility that the PvE content on each side will be slightly different, but you can still PvE your way the whole way on both sides. It's just that the PvE for the Klingons will be more combat and conquest based. For example:

Some of them will be persistent so that you can go in and other people can join you. For example, there will be a persistent Klingon battlefront where the Klingons are fighting the Romulans. Something will always be going on there and anyone can join in.
- http://www.startrekonline.com/ask_cryptic/4-30-09


They've also talked about Klingons being more conquest based and Federation more diplomatic. I think they should just slightly tweak the procedural generation that they are providing for the Feds, and give it to the Klingons. This will basically be the same thing, but more of the goals have to do with conquering. You'd still have all the same spacial anomalies to deal with and such.


I guess we'll see how far it goes, but it seems like Klingon 'missons' sound like they may be more like a typical MMO: "Go to the battleground with the romulans, <and defend it for 10 mins> <kill ten romulans> < take x y or z> <escort this ship through> blah blah blah..."

What would you guys feel about that? It basically just doesn't have the hand crafted nature of the Fed side.

[Stormnet]

I still like the fact, that they try to create two different playing experiences. Lets face it: Klingons are way more suited for more PvP oriented gameplay anyway. And as stated: there will be MORE PvP Gameplay to the Klingons, not ONLY. I like the idea. And frankly: it just makes me more eager to try out the Klingons first. Fighting other Klingons and Federation players! What else would a Klingon do? Beam down on some sunshine planet to check out the distress signal from some cute, furry, pacifistic scientists? :D

Seriously, where are all the "immersion!!!" criers from the admiral-threads now? The way cryptic is planning the Klingons now is far deeper in the immersion than the episodic stuff the Federation gets. As I said: I adore the idea and am really looking forward to it.

I'm with you here. Klingons are the aggressors and as such should be PvPing quite a bit. If you're into exploration and PVE content go Feds, If your truely a Klingon then you should be PvPing all the time. I'm not saying there shouldn't be PVE content for Klingons but leveling up on PvP is what makes a true klingon.


While there is a lot of information on Klingons in the movies and shows, there is nowhere near the amount as the Federation. Same goes for the Romulans. So it's understandable the Klingons would have a little less PVE content.

I am seriously considering going Klingon.

[Musterion]

So it might basically be that Klingons get PVE "grinds" (like the persistent warzone) as an excuse for a "full" PVE experience, whereas the Feds will get far more involving handcrafted story-driven content? :(

And if they introduce a third faction later on, will they a) have to go through the Federation tutorial, b) be biased towards PVE/PVP, or balanced?

[slingbladez]

Just because Klingon's love combat doesn't automatically mean that combat is PvP, the same combat objectives could be accomplished through PvE means.There is no difference in the Klingon canon between a federation ship crewed by a player or by a computer, it's still a federation ship we have to kill.

Cryptic is going to have federation kill Klingon which can be played by other players or by the computer. Some people are saying cryptic should only force them to kill the computer version of Klingon in missions. For PvP they also say cryptic should just allow them to go to the NZ whenever they want.

Cryptic is going to have Klingons kill Klingon/federation which can be played by other players or by the computer. Some people are saying cryptic unlike the federation should force us to kill the player versions of each faction for a lot of our missions. For PvE we'll get less content because they'll be forcing us to kill each other for content.

To me this distinction makes no sense because canon for both factions could be settled through PvE means but people assume because we are Klingon that we should PvP instead. I want robust PvE and to PvP at my leisure. I don't want to be forced to PvP just because i like Klingons.

[Loekii]

The issue I'm raising is not whether or not they are more suited for PVP, on that aspect I have no grievance at all.. they are a warlike culture, of course they are.

No, my issue is.. for those players who do not wish to PVP, or even predominantly PVP, will thier be "ENOUGH" Klingon content to allow them to have a majoritive or even ENTIRELY PVE Klingon experience if that is thier preferreed play style?

I mean, I do not know about others, but I was fully intending to have a Klingon alt, but I have no interest in pvp beyodn the odd brief bout of curiosity or boredom.

I do not like the notion that the only way I can have a fully PVE experience in a 2 faction (to begin) game is only with one side...thats just not appealing to me.

I am a PvPer, and I am worried about there not being enough PvE Content.

Again, I enjoy PvP, but I know that it is not an acceptable replacement for hand crafted PvE Content.

This is an MMORPG, not a MMOFPS.

One of the biggest complaints about SWG, and the reason it did so poorly with such an slam dunk IP, was the Lack of Star Wars Content. The game had lots of 'PvP', but virtually no PvE content of quality, and people hated that -- so much so that they only retained maybe 30% of their box sales in the 2nd month. Its just another example, of the failed attempt to not provide Hand crafted content. Raph Koster even decreed that 'Players are the content', dismissing people's complaints about the lack of PvE hand Crafted content. The customers took his decree and put it in the trash, along with the game and the subscriptions.

So I think it is important that Cryptic not skimp on the KDF hand crafted PVE Content, nor make the same mistake SWG did with thinking 'Players are the content'.

[Acyl]

No, my issue is.. for those players who do not wish to PVP, or even predominantly PVP, will thier be "ENOUGH" Klingon content to allow them to have a majoritive or even ENTIRELY PVE Klingon experience if that is thier preferreed play style?

This is the million-dollar question.

Look, there has to be some PvE content for Klingons. Saying that there won't be any PvE combat or PvE episodes/quests for Klingons is simply absurd. They'll never do that. There WILL be Klingon PvE.

The question is how much.

Will there be enough Klingon PvE content to get from Lieutenant to Admiral?

Will there be enough diversity in the Klingon PvE experience, so it doesn't become a boring grind?

I don't mind the Federation getting more story stuff at launch. It's okay for one side to have more. So long as the Klingon side has enough.

[Aethilgar]

My concern was the quote stating that 'Klingons wouldn't have story driven PvE like the Fed will'. I'll try to dig that post back up.

[Loekii]

My concern was the quote stating that 'Klingons wouldn't have story driven PvE like the Fed will'. I'll try to dig that post back up.

That is what I would like further explained.

Giving the Klingon Faction basic quests and trying to smoke screen us that 'PvP = Content', is going to have a negative impact on the game, especially if the Feds have rich long reaching story arcs and intriguing Episodic content.

I am fine with the Klingons being more PVP centric, so long as that just means there are more PVP opportunties, and less 'Exploration type' content.

What I would not be happy with, is to find out that we only get 50% PvE content, and are expected to accept that PVP makes up the other 50%.

Other companies with far better expereince with PvP systems have be unable to accomplish this, so I have little faith that Cryptic will pull the rabbit out of the hat.

And I an not interested in playing Klingons as an 'Alt', and expected to embrace the Federation as the game -- not after 14 months of being lead to believe that there is a playable Klingon faction. I am not intersted in playing Lord Of the Rings Online Feds, with advance Klingon Monster play.

[Archangelwoghd]

I would hope that the Klingon experience will be as rich as the Federation's. If Cryptic is having trouble thinking of content, they need only come to me, I have about 100 ideas, scenarios, and plots...

[Zinoviev]

From what we have heard, I think you will be let down if you think the Klingons will have an equal PvE experience to the Federation. Do not get false hopes. Read what they said. The last thing I want to hear upon launch is Klingon players screaming foul when they new in advance.

Klingons like to fight. That is PvP.

There are many people who say they have a rich culture that does not involve fighting. I would say they do have a culture outside of honor and combat, but it is far from "rich." Some cultures are more diverse than others. It is clear the Federation has more to offer.

Sometimes people do not like what they hear. The Devs said that the Klingons will not be as story driven, and will focus more on PvP.

Even with people complaining about that, do you really think they have time to add PvE content to the Klingons equivelant to the Feds before launch when they do not have the time to make them a tutorial? I doubt it. More content may be, but not equal. Not by a long shot.

[NeoWolf]

From what we have heard, I think you will be let down if you think the Klingons will have an equal PvE experience to the Federation. Do not get false hopes. Read what they said. The last thing I want to hear upon launch is Klingon players screaming foul when they new in advance.

Why shouldn't they, are they not an equal faction? Don't get me wrong im a Fed anyway, but that doesnt mean I wouldnt liked to have enjoyed the klingon side of things from time to time.. Are we playing favourites? do the klingons deserve less effort, less attention to detail, less story? I don't think so.

Klingons like to fight. That is PvP.

The fact klingons are from a warrior culture and find battle a worthy pursuit is STORY... PVP has nothing to do with story, PVP as with PVE is a play style, and in a game that is appealing to both audiences then both factions should have equal treatment in what they can and cannot do.

Does it make sense that Klingons be more combat oriented, and therefore likely have "more" PVP opportunities from the get go.. (battlegrounds, house vs house battles etc..) certainly.

Does it make sense that they lose out on story driven PVE content as a result? Hell no. The Klingon Empire has massive story potential beyond simply button bashing, and pew pew mentalities.. AND that is what we are trying to find out.. Will they get that equal consideration.

Or will they end up a dumbed down faction, like LOTRO's monsterplay someone mentioned earlier (love LOTRO btw, but Monsterplay is beyond dull).

There are many people who say they have a rich culture that does not involve fighting. I would say they do have a culture outside of honor and combat, but it is far from "rich." Some cultures are more diverse than others. It is clear the Federation has more to offer.

See this to me, i.e whether they fight or not is moot to the point, as that is not what we are talking here.. we are talking about CONTENT.. will klingons get equal content or will they simply be a mechanic for PVPers. Because the fact of it is, there are a LOT of non PVPers who were looking forward to playing Klingons.

Sometimes people do not like what they hear. The Devs said that the Klingons will not be as story driven, and will focus more on PvP.

As much is one thing... no pve at all is another.. It has worried me as it has others just how little info regarding the other faction has been put out there, this close to release. And then we get this potential as yet unconfirmed bombshell dropped in our laps lol. I thinks its about time Cryptic started explainign WHAT is happening with Klingons, because the question marks thus far are not happy ones to any but the non MMORPG'ers thus far.

Somewhat Different (more PVP opportunities, less but not NO pve content) is one thing, totally vacant of anything to offer (little or no PVe content)..is entirely another

Even with people complaining about that, do you really think they have time to add PvE content to the Klingons equivelant to the Feds before launch when they do not have the time to make them a tutorial? I doubt it. More content may be, but not equal. Not by a long shot.

I dont think time is an issue to be honest, Cryptic know what they are doign they plan things out, it is the implication of some significant differences between factions that has folks concerned. And quite frankly IF time was an issue, then move back release and get to work on some, I dont intend on paying for half a two faction game, I intend on paying for a FULL, two faction game, where I can play either and it has something to offer me "whatever" my preferred playstyle.

As I am sure is the case with most people.

[Loekii]

Klingons like to fight. That is PvP.

So do the Horde, and they are PVE. As are Bezerkers in EQ2, or other such factions in multiple MMORPG games where they are PVE.

As others have pointed out, it is incorrect to define combat/Fighting as PvP dependent.

And without an official measure or range of PvE content from both sides, it is hard to declare one way or the other.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

Klingons like to fight. That is PvP.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong. PvP is a TYPE of combat, but not all combat is PvP. PvP and PvE are simply two different types of gameplay, and while the Klingon story should definitely be COMBAT oriented, that has nothing to do with the PvP type of gameplay anymore than it does the PvE type.

[Esgar]

Klingons like to fight. That is PvP.
That's not really how it works, unless you want to define PvE as 'diplomacy that doesn't involve fighting'. The fededration isn't the only faction in the known universe, and in-game, there are AI feds.




"My concern was the quote stating that 'Klingons wouldn't have story driven PvE like the Fed will'. I'll try to dig that post back up."
This is just a fiddly little game of semantics, considering I haven't read the exact post, but that paraphrase doesn't exclude story arcs for the klingons; just that they wouldn't have as much PvE story as the feds, or that it wouldn't work in quite the same way. More likely, I think that the Klingons will have story driven missions via PvP.
I'm tempted to say that these presumed stories will deal largely with the relations between houses and how they interact, but considering that I'm not aware of how the house mechanics are going to work ( I THINK they're akin to guilds, thus shooting down my idea, but I'm not sure), I can't really say for certain.

[BreachAndClear]

I don't mind the Klingons having more PvP opportunities than Starfleet in the form of PvP vs. Starfleet, as well as vs. other Houses. What gets me is the idea that it's "less story driven" which makes me think few, if any, episodes will be present for the Klingons.

Sure, there WILL be PvE in the form of Borg invasions, battles with Romulan fleets, and maybe AI controlled Federation fleets. But, how long is that going to appeal to a PvE player?

"Oh boy, I'm going to log in and visit the Romulan/Klingon border for the 1,000th time and grind through the same enemies!"

I don't see myself doing that. Lack of episodes in itself may be enough to kill the Klingon faction (at least for me). I hope I'm wrong.

[mistharm]

I don't mind the Klingons having more PvP opportunities than Starfleet in the form of PvP vs. Starfleet, as well as vs. other Houses. What gets me is the idea that it's "less story driven" which makes me think few, if any, episodes will be present for the Klingons.

Sure, there WILL be PvE in the form of Borg invasions, battles with Romulan fleets, and maybe AI controlled Federation fleets. But, how long is that going to appeal to a PvE player?

"Oh boy, I'm going to log in and visit the Romulan/Klingon border for the 1,000th time and grind through the same enemies!"

I don't see myself doing that. Lack of episodes in itself may be enough to kill the Klingon faction (at least for me). I hope I'm wrong.

Pretty much summed up my view as well.

[mrwalsh]

I think people are jumping too much over a single-line. All he said is that they would be more PvP-oriented than the Federation. That's common sense, of course they are. Starfleet is not a military organization, they say so all the time. It has military strength, but that's secondary to their purpose. The KDF is a military, they're more driven to fight. Klingons fight other factions in power, and Klingons fight other Klingons in power. Isn't the standard rule that a Klingon passes his superior officer by declaring him weak and striking him down? They have constant power struggles between Houses and each other for control.

I see what he said as meaning that Klingon players will be presented with a lot more PvP play options to generate rank than Federation players will. That means the players who prefer strict PvP advancement play (and if GW is any indication, that's a lot more than a lot of you are giving credit for), will find themselves more at home with Klingons (which will certainly contribute to the faction balance they were talking about). That doesn't mean it's the only option presented to Klingon players. The only fact that you can logically derive from Zinc's statement is that Federation players will have less PvP options, which absolutely makes sense. The viable question (that has been asked here) is where do they balance it out; but despite all the unsupported supposition, that hasn't been answered yet.

This 900 different threads of strife from a single line of text is exactly why they don't give us more information (and that's perfectly reasonable). If we were playing the game and you guys had a real, valid point, I'd totally understand. Klingon's should have a healthy PvE experience, and there is just as much room for them to have exploration and conquest. Right now all your doing is giving Cryptic a headache and flooding the forums with stuff that really doesn't benefit anyone.

Going the supposition route: I see this as meaning the Klingons will have their own personal take on things like the neutral zone, but with House combat. Houses fight each other for rank and supremacy, possibly some kind of controlled areas and other such typical GvG stuff. Maybe even some higher rank optional missions (they talked about optional high level raid type co-op missions) that center around Klingon PvP and GVG (maybe even some PvPvE, like players fighting each other to be the first to take conquest over an area). They haven't said anything to suggest that Klingons won't be having extensive PvE and Exploration, so I don't see any reason why they shouldn't.

I would find it particularly funny though to see 100 new threads about Federation getting gimped PvP after this, but I'm betting since I threw in a 'wait-and-see' overtone it'll prolly get shrugged off.

[NeoWolf]

I think people are jumping too much over a single-line. All he said is that they would be more PvP-oriented than the Federation. .

Actually what he said was very MUCYH open to interpretation, and that is what is worrying people.

Plus noone is jumping to conlusions here, because noone is saying it IS PVE lite or non existent for Klingons, we are in fact asking IF it is, based on what he said.

What people here are doing is not jumping to conclusions but stating if it is the way it sounded, then we have reason to be concerned and would like some clarification on the issue.

And so far, noone has been forthcoming (and yes I have sent a Pm asking for clarification, with no response thus far).

We are not that far from release Q1 2010.. and so far apart from 2 ship overviews, and a few screenshots showing them, pretty much squat has been told to us about the second faction and how they will work, beyond "we will be discussing them much later in the development cycle"... anymore "much later" and we'll be hearing about them when we run the launcher lol

[mrwalsh]

Actually what he said was very MUCYH open to interpretation, and that is what is worrying people.

Plus noone is jumping to conlusions here, because noone is saying it IS PVE lite or non existent for Klingons, we are in fact asking IF it is, based on what he said.

What people here are doing is not jumping to conclusions but stating if it is the way it sounded, then we have reason to be concerned and would like some clarification on the issue.

And so far, noone has been forthcoming (and yes I have sent a Pm asking for clarification, with no response thus far).

We are not that far from release Q1 2010.. and so far apart from 2 ship overviews, and a few screenshots showing them, pretty much squat has been told to us about the second faction and how they will work, beyond "we will be discussing them much later in the development cycle"... anymore "much later" and we'll be hearing about them when we run the launcher lol

heh That was more a reference to many of the other posts seen in other threads on the subject. I chose the one that was most reasonable to support with a reply.

Clarification is good, but some of the stuff people are posting in other threads about how they're ruining the game and how Cryptic doesn't know what's best to do with the IP is ridiculous. Not attacking anyone, but some of the 'conclusions' that some people have arrived at are ridiculous. I don't have any intention of bumping that nonsense, but what is discussed here is relevant to what's being discussed there. I try not to respond to nonsense, that just reinforces the validity of making their ridiculous thread in the first place. :cool: This one gave me a place to post on the subject without doing that.

Everything said is open to speculation, sometimes it's best not to say anything at all until you can show it. I actually think they've been pretty forthcoming so far (maybe a little too much so), but I figure it's just a fragment of things to come (which makes it all that more impressive). They clearly like their game a lot and are excited to share info about it. If they did hold off info until people started getting in game, I wouldn't blame them. Tons of studios do that to avoid pre-game PR fiascos.

For example: They've already made a mistake with most of the "not-at-launch" comments. In most cases, they're saying the game is open to potential for features beyond it's original design, which to any MMO fan should be a great thing. The average non-mmo guy is going to take that as content that they could've put in and didn't want to include. Not many companies tell their users "your point is valid and interesting, and we'd certainly like to see if we can find a way to incorporate it" or "we certainly have considered that feature, but we're working on a means of perfecting it." Now they have to put up with the running "not-at-launch" jokes on something that should actually be greatly appreciated by the community...

They want to advocate as little pre-decision on what the game is and should be prior to it's release. They want people to come in with hopes and wishes, and have them be pleasantly surprised when those wishes are disproved but the game still works on its own merit. The more hard info they release, the more people will develop their pre-conceived notions of how they're doing it wrong. Tthey'll ultimately dislike the game because they've already decided to. Better to have a few people be unpleasantly surprised than to alienate your player base with baseless speculation and pre-decision before launch.

They also can't release much hard info, because unlike the closed beta (where we all sign an NDA-first rule of Beta is not to talk about Beta), the PR on the site is open to the public. The more they say now, the more that gets set in stone. Consider the lack of info as being part of the Devs insight towards a growing and changing player experience that will benefit from our input. What GW (or WoW or any other MMO) was pre and post beta are incredibly different games (even if the same basic rules apply).

heh Great, now I'm abusing your thread again to rant on another topic that's been bothering me, but I didn't want to justify by posting in. My bad. Sorry in advance if the thread goes downhill from here. Maybe I should have manned up and made my own thread.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

I think people are jumping too much over a single-line.

Actualy, two small paragraphs:

Craig Zinkievich: Yes! We plan on shipping with the ability to play as Federation and play on the Klingon side. The Klingon gameplay is going to be drastically different to the Federation gameplay. It's going to be a lot more focused on PvP; their advancement is a little bit different - it is not a full-on story-driven game like the Federation.

and

Craig Zinkievich: No, we'll be offering full-on character advancement: you will create a Klingon player, you will have his ship, he will level up. The content that they will be experiencing is a lot more focused on PvP - fighting the Federation, fighting House versus House within the Klingon empire. So it is a full-on character with advancement, with items, with bridge officers as well. So it's a lot more than the Monster Play.

Also, it sounds like you too do not comprehend the difference between "combat" and "pvp". The Klingon culture is strongly associated with combat, but you can engage in combat through PvE just as well as you can through PvP, so there is no reason players should be forced to PvP if they dont want to.

[Atavax]

the biggest thing that makes me doubt the quality of this game, isnt any info they have released, but what seems like inept replies from developers, making their entire team seem clueless. is a game where the dev's cant communicate going to be a good game? unlikely.

[Replica]

So it looks like there will be no Klingon tutorial at launch, which would explain why you have to "unlock" the ability to play Klingon by advancing to an early Fed level. That's cool, especially if Klingons are supposed to be far more PvP focused. I just hope there are more PvP perks for the Klingons as well, like Player owned stations in the PvP zone.
I understand entirely froma development perspective why the KDF side would have far lesss PvE. Because it isn't canon. Cryptic can't go around inventing too much lore in the Star Trek universe without it effecting too many other interested parties, like CBS. So if you really want "The Klingon Experience" then go level up in battle like a true warrior.

I personally think that having different sides with different primary focuses might be the most innovative thing that Cryptic is doing so far with STO. I have to applaud them for that.

there is no reason players should be forced to PvP if they dont want to.
umm why not? You are being told well before Beta that the Klingon side is focused on PvP. If you want to PvE primarily then go with a Federation character. You don't have a "right" to demand that Cryptic make the game to your tastes, you only have the right to play the game they make, or not.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

I personally think that having different sides with different primary focuses might be the most innovative thing that Cryptic is doing so far with STO. I have to applaud them for that.

"Innovative" or not, if people are forced to choose their faction based on their preferred gameplay type(PvE or PvP), then the game's story becomes worthless. Its no longer about "do I want to be a member of the Federation or the Klingon Empire", its "do I want to be forced to PvP or not".

[mrwalsh]

Also, it sounds like you too do not comprehend the difference between "combat" and "pvp". The Klingon culture is strongly associated with combat, but you can engage in combat through PvE just as well as you can through PvP, so there is no reason players should be forced to PvP if they dont want to.

Maybe you didn't read what I said about PvP options? I never said anything about the Klingons being forced to do PvP because Klingons fight each other. I said Klingons should have more PvP options than Federation because Klingons fight each other. The Faction as a whole will be more PvP-centric because more players on the Klingon side will be advancing through PvP play, many doing so as exclusively as the game allows.

Being encouraged to do PvP (rewards/faction bonuses, House controlled territory) and having PvP options could mean the overall Klingon content is more focused on PvP. It doesn't mean that they won't have a rich PvE experience to accompany it. For instance, GW (I keep using that 'cause no one does PvP like GW) has areas within a faction that are controlled by the highest ranking guilds in that faction. They have access to certain areas and features (including merchant sections in towns, and at the top level, control traffic to an entrance to end-game PvE area). If Klingon players gain control of NPC areas through faction, and faction is rewarded through PvP, then it would stand to say that they are more PvP centric (than Feds, who may take control of areas purely through Rep). It wouldn't detract from the PvE experience of the faction as a whole though, and does actually make for an interesting player driven mechanic. That's just an example though.

Note that GW does allow you to garner that same faction with PvE and PvP, just the PvP tends to reward a lot faster. That only matters for the ones that want to be on top though, and those are the ones who want to do PvP. At no point is the average player gimped by the exchange.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

umm why not? You are being told well before Beta that the Klingon side is focused on PvP. If you want to PvE primarily then go with a Federation character.

See my last post. A player's choice of faction should be based on the story of the IP, not just because they dont want to be forced to PvP.


You don't have a "right" to demand that Cryptic make the game to your tastes, you only have the right to play the game they make, or not.

Actualy, we have the right to ask for anything we want. That doesnt mean Cryptic is going to listen, but we still have the right to ask.

[Replica]

"Innovative" or not, if people are forced to choose their faction based on their preferred gameplay type(PvE or PvP), then the game's story becomes worthless. Its no longer about "do I want to be a member of the Federation or the Klingon Empire", its "do I want to be forced to PvP or not".

It could as well be viewed as: Do I want to be a Warrior or and Explorer? Which fits perfectly, Klingons are warriors it's canon. Federation is a primarily peaceful group that explores and seeks out new worlds, it;s canon.
Nobody is being "forced" to do anything. It's not even in Beta and you are being told what the game is going to be. If you decide to buy it then you already know the format of the game going into it. Stop trying to play the victim of the big mean gaming company. Cryptic has said what the game is.Choose to buy it or not, but don't buy and then complain that it isn't something else.

Complaining that you are being "forced to PvP" iis not asking, it's faux victimization, and it's whining.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

It could as well be viewed as: Do I want to be a Warrior or and Explorer?

That has NOTHING to do with PvE or PvP: they are BOTH combat. No one is saying the Klingons shouldnt have a combat oriented story. You are once again confusing "combat" with "pvp". PvE is ALSO combat, so there is no reason players who chose to be Klingons should be forced into a PvP mold.

[Draconianknight]

I agree.

I am hoping that it might be something less benign, like:

KDF PVE Content = ~90% FED PvE Content


Perhaps, like not having as much 'Exploration' and 'non-Combat' based content, but instead replacing that gap with PvP based content (House vs. House, etc).

What I worry about is that its more like 40% of FED PvE content, with PvP supposed to be filling the gap. WARHAMMER discovered that even PvPers get tired of just Pvping, and want a rich PvE game to dabble with and take breaks.


The problem with cutting the access to exploration etc is that you are limiting the access the Klingon faction has to hidden races, talents and new tech and toys. Klingons had warp tech before humans, so you can not discount the science side just because they are a warrior race. Their tech may be more militarly alligned but there should full on PvE access just like the Feds. The only way to overcome this short fall of access that I can see is to allow us to capture items after a successful PvP encounter, obviously if you loose you pay the price. But Cryptic has already said no to all of that, there will be basiclly NO death penalty.

[Koba]

If the role of the Klingons is combat, why are people so against them being heavily PvP? Do people feel better killing NPCs over players if they are awarded the same? That does not make since.

And I agree with another poster. You are not forced to PvP. Just do not play Klingons if you do not want to PvP.

[Loekii]

umm why not? You are being told well before Beta that the Klingon side is focused on PvP. If you want to PvE primarily then go with a Federation character. You don't have a "right" to demand that Cryptic make the game to your tastes, you only have the right to play the game they make, or not.

I don't think its a 'demand', nor do I think that Klingons will be 'Forced' to PvP:

Wow, lots of PvP talk lately.

I'll say a few things - hopefully to calm you guys down and get you excited about the possibilities rather than whip you into a froth of speculation, anger and name calling. ('cause then Rekhan will be mad at me. : )

There will be PvP in STO.
PvP will be consensual. If you don't want to do it, you will never have to.
Basic PvP in STO rocks. It's fun. Very fun. Makes me (and I'm a carebear) want to play.
Our goal is to make a rich PvP experience that people who might not normally PvP might try.
I'll repeat - if you don't want to PvP - you won't even see it.
-Zn

I think this still rings true, and that though Klingon Content has more PvP focus, it doesn't mean it is PvP Exclusive or that you 'Must' PvP if you play a Klingon. Avoid PVP as a Klingon probably will just be more limiting, like playing a game in an unothodox style.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

If the role of the Klingons is combat, why are people so against them being heavily PvP?

No one is saying Klingons shouldnt be about combat, and no one is saying Klingons shouldnt PvP. What is being said is that Klingons shouldnt be forced to PvP, since PvE is just as much "combat" as PvP is.

[Koba]

No one is saying Klingons shouldnt be about combat, and no one is saying Klingons shouldnt PvP. What is being said is that Klingons shouldnt be forced to PvP, since PvE is just as much "combat" as PvP is.

Yes, but read the rest of my statement. Just do not quote the part you want.

Does it matter if the rewards and xp are the same? Is killing NPCs really that more satisfying?

The only thing would be the option to kill Romulans and other races, which I am sure is included.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

Yes, but read the rest of my statement. Just do not quote the part you want.

I quote the specific part I am replying to, and will continue to do so.

Does it matter if the rewards and xp are the same? Is killing NPCs really that more satisfying?

It depends on who you ask. One person enjoys fighting other players, another enjoys fighting NPCs. Neither is right or wrong, they are simply preferences. The point is, players should have the choice between whichever type of combat they prefer.

[Musterion]

If the role of the Klingons is combat, why are people so against them being heavily PvP? Do people feel better killing NPCs over players if they are awarded the same? That does not make since. I think it's that while PVP can be thrilling and great fun, there's something nice in knowing that there's PVE as an option as it's generally "guaranteed" success, and just something you can relax with and do. .PVP isn't always a guaranteed win as sometimes you'll hit an oppoenent who just outclasses you in everyway, so PVP is by no means a guaranteed path to victory, whereas PVE pretty much is. But that's just my opinion :)

And I agree with another poster. You are not forced to PvP. Just do not play Klingons if you do not want to PvP. And what of people who want to play in the KDF who just want to PVE, but not have to grind the seemingly few PVE missions that there will be?

[Musterion]

The point is, players should have the choice between whichever type of combat they prefer.Very much this, regardless of the faction a player chooses, they should have access to PVE/PVP as they wish.

[mrwalsh]

And what of people who want to play in the KDF who just want to PVE, but not have to grind the seemingly few PVE missions that there will be?

No offense, but you'll have to point me in the direction to where Cryptic said anything about Klingon PvE, particularly the amount of content.

No one provided a retort towards my previous comment on how a faction can be subdivided within itself and provide more PvP-centric content than another, without gimping PvE players. I haven't seen anything yet to suggest what they're going to do and if that concept (or a similar take on it) isn't feasible.

I think it's that while PVP can be thrilling and great fun, there's something nice in knowing that there's PVE as an option as it's generally "guaranteed" success, and just something you can relax with and do. .PVP isn't always a guaranteed win as sometimes you'll hit an oppoenent who just outclasses you in everyway, so PVP is by no means a guaranteed path to victory, whereas PVE pretty much is. But that's just my opinion

heh That is my opinion too. PvP is great for the rush, but not for the casual player looking for a laid-back experience. I do most of my 'PvP' type play outside MMO's. This game is making me want to try it though. I actually wasn't too worried about making a turtlehead before, but after them saying access to more PvP content I might have to make one just for that purpose.

[ecsakron]

This thread is entertaining. I can smell the fear in the air. Sounds like a lot of you would-be klingon warriors are getting weak in the knees at the prospect that you might have to actually fight for your honor and glory. Don't worry though, I'm sure there will be plenty of opportunities to pew pew npc bots with your mighty warships.

IMO the fact that the klingons will be more pvp oriented is fantastic and will add to the immersion of being a soldier in an empire that is hell bent on conquest and glory in battle. Perhaps dieing in a fight will be an xp bonus of sorts because isn't that their highest honor? The different factions in mmos I've played have just been mirrors of each other regardless of their backstory/lore and I am excited too see how cryptic develops this.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

This thread is entertaining. I can smell the fear in the air. Sounds like a lot of you would-be klingon warriors are getting weak in the knees at the prospect that you might have to actually fight for your honor and glory. Don't worry though, I'm sure there will be plenty of opportunities to pew pew npc bots with your mighty warships.

The only thing entertaining is the fact that you think the way a person plays a VIDEO GAME has anything to do with their "bravery". I have PvPd in plenty of games, and I actualy enjoy it. What I dont enjoy is the condescending attitude the majority of PvPers, such as yourself, display towards those that dont. In reality, it makes you look much worse than them.

[Loekii]

I don't sense any fear.

I see educated concern, but not any fear.

[mrwalsh]

Pretty sure that was a Klingon joke. Good sense of humor though guys.

[Loekii]

Pretty sure that was a Klingon joke. Good sense of humor though guys.

More likely a poor joke and poor presentation. ;)

[mrwalsh]

More likely a poor joke and poor presentation.

Shrug, that sounds like something a Federation guy would say about a Klingon joke. I was going to say something too about not begrudging you for being honor-less cowards, too afraid to face a real warrior in combat. I won't hold it against you, even though I hope you all die in your sleep. :D

Klingon RP humor. It's relevant to the topic. It's funny. :cool:

[Vorus]

I will put myself up as an example for this topic.

I want to fly Klingon ships, particularly the Vorcha class. I want my character to be Vulcan. And I want to RP fairly heavily. What I DON'T want, is to have to put up with the "rabble" of the PvP players. If I PvP, I want it to be against my friends, or people I respect, not some random 15yr old who's going to annoy me the whole time with his various antics, or some other such character that I prefer to avoid.

Therefore, if I am, as a Klingon player, forced to PvP against people I'd rather avoid, I'll probably just avoid this game altogether. Because, my only other choice is to play another Fed-based game, and that doesn't interest me nearly as much as being a more free-wheeling Vulcan piloting a Klingon ship.

Simply put, if I can't pick and chose my PvP or PvE battles, I doubt I'll play this game. I want to be in control of whom I fight, and for what reasons I fight.

[lordpenquin]

a VULCAN working for the KDF? Facinating... I'm curious as to your character details as to why or how he would up doing so.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

If I PvP, I want it to be against my friends, or people I respect, not some random 15yr old who's going to annoy me the whole time with his various antics, or some other such character that I prefer to avoid.

I agree with all of your post except this statement. If you enter a PvP zone, you should be flagged as an enemy to any member of the opposite faction that is in it, regardless of whether you like them as a person or not. However, I do nto think you should have to enter that PvP zone if you dont want to.

[Replica]

.. there's something nice in knowing that there's PVE as an option as it's generally "guaranteed" success, and just something you can relax with and do. .PVP isn't always a guaranteed win...


Ah there is the heart of the matter.

In PvP you can lose, which makes it anathema to anyone who wants a feeling of invincibility when they play video games. I can understand that from a relaxation perspective. But if you view the PvP the same way as you would view a round of Quake or CoD, where you expect to die half the time, then it can still be just as much, or more fun. Just say to yourself "today is a good day to die" before you make that Klingon character.

@Rogue-Vulcan: The "rabble" wont miss you. Don't let the turbolift door hit your traitorous Vulcan *** on the way out, it might dislodge the stick you keep there.

[Koba]

There are very few MMOs that let you just PvP your friends and no one else. Those are just duels.

I imagine if you just want to duel, you will be able to do just that and never leave Klingon territory.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

Ah there is the heart of the matter.

In PvP you can lose, which makes it anathema to anyone who wants a feeling of invincibility when they play video games. I can understand that from a relaxation perspective. But if you view the PvP the same way as you would view a round of Quake or CoD, where you expect to die half the time, then it can still be just as much, or more fun. Just say to yourself "today is a good day to die" before you make that Klingon character.

You can lose in PvE as long as the people making the game know what their doing. So unless your insinuating the Devs dont, then your point is moot.

[Koba]

You can lose in PvE as long as the people making the game know what their doing. So unless your insinuating the Devs dont, then your point is moot.

Well, in CO I rarely ever died.

[Vorus]

a VULCAN working for the KDF? Facinating... I'm curious as to your character details as to why or how he would up doing so.
I've actually given him a rather lengthy backstory. (I've tried to write a couple of novels about him and his crew, but I've never finished them.) He was always discontented with the Vulcan philosophy of total emotional control, and as a result he lived on Qo'nos for several years. He was in SF from the Dominion War, all the way up until just after the destruction of Romulus as seen in the new film. Because of events after the loss of their planet, Vorus (His name, obviously.) finds out about the existence of Section 31, and becomes disillusioned with the Federation and he tenders his resignation. He is adopted by a Klingon house, and given his own ship, which he now uses to explore and help people, and generally poke around with things, as he sees fit.



I agree with all of your post except this statement. If you enter a PvP zone, you should be flagged as an enemy to any member of the opposite faction that is in it, regardless of whether you like them as a person or not. However, I do nto think you should have to enter that PvP zone if you dont want to.
Granted, entering a PvP zone, I would be okay with random people fighting me, after all, I chose to be in that zone, like you said. I "signed the release", so to speak. However, I'm not going to feel like subjecting myself to that very often.


Also, a related question: Can we join fights in progress? And if so, can we join on either side? Like say I'm flying around, and I find Ilithi under attack by some Klingons. Can I even see him like that ingame? And if so, can I jump in with my Vorcha and defend him? (I've never played an MMO, so I don't know how they work.)

[bullhead2007]

I think there are way too many assumptions being made about what has been said, and then people are making arguments based on those assumptions that have no real concrete evidence.

Klingons are going to be more PVP oriented than Fed. This makes sense and this is actually what I was hoping for, because I wouldn't feel like a Klingon if it was the same Fed experience with a Klingon interface. I love Klingon lore and I hope they have plenty of content using that as a basis for PVE, but really I never thought I'd hear people who want to play as Klingons complain about having more advantages to advance into the end game content through glorious battle rather than grinding. Obviously it can't be ALL PVP combat stuff, but the PVP combat is always the most fun and engaging.

I will probably play Klingon in closed beta if I can to see what kind of content there is. If the Klingon side is like Unreal Tournament where you're just waiting for death matches to start, then yeah I will complain. If there's a main underlying Klingon story arc that drives you to combat and PVP and it flows nicely without grinding or repetitious content then why complain?

[Vorus]

@Rogue-Vulcan: The "rabble" wont miss you. Don't let the turbolift door hit your traitorous Vulcan *** on the way out, it might dislodge the stick you keep there.
My my, you're rather confrontational, aren't you? Well, don't bother wasting your time trying to irritate me, you're far too fragile for such a feat.

But in reply to your point, I did not say that ALL PvPers were rabble, now did I? I stated quite clearly that I only wished to avoid those that I found irritating, and that I wished not to be forced to play against people that I don't want to play against, or be forced to play against people for reasons that I did not agree with.

For instance, I don't want to be a part of any "House Wars" among Klingons, I am not interested in such things. However, I would be interesting in splitting some Feddie skulls if they try to claim Klingon territory. I want to only fight the people that I wish, and for the reasons that I wish. That shouldn't be hard for even you to comprehend.

[Rgoodfel]

I am rather disappointed. This whole things sounds like they are running out of time so they are leaving Klingons 1/2 done. I am hoping that I am wrong and just being worried, but this situation does make me nervous for ST:O.

[dinendae]

Im sure there will be a lot more content for the Klingons.
If they wanted to have an faction pure for pvp they would have taken the romulans to be playble.

There is no excuse to pigeonhole any race, especially if people have to buy an expansion to play that race. I would expect all races to have gameplay as deep as what is being offered to the Federation players. Granted the experience should not be the same, to account for the various differences between the races, but the PvE Klingon (or whatever race) players should be able to rank and skill up on strictly PvE content, just as the PvP players should be allowed to do the same while engaging in PvP.

Since the PvP details originally came out, Cryptic has been promising that no one who did not wish to PvP would ever have to. Klingon PvE content shouldn't be 60%, 70%, or even 90% of the Klingon experience; Klingon players who do not wish to PvP should be able to reach the best ships and skill levels without having to PvP, as was promised.

Now if they can't finish the Klingon side of things by their launch date, then they need to move the launch date. If it's a money issue then launch with just the Federation side, letting people know before launch, and then add the Klingons in when they have a level of content comparable to the Federation. The days of players accepting the launch of an unfinished game are long over, and the excuse of MMO's never being finished ring hollow these days; there's a big difference between the continued evolution of an MMO and launching a game that is severely lacking in content.

[Replica]

There is no excuse to pigeonhole any race, especially if people have to buy an expansion to play that race. I would expect all races to have gameplay as deep as what is being offered to the Federation players.
.

I think you are confusing real life multiculturalism and game design. In real life it would be wrong to impose unequal limitations on someone because of race. In game design it is more important to do a few things very well then to be try to be all things to all people.

Again I applaud Cryptic for the innovation of having an asymmetric game focus between the factions.

[Syndica]

I am rather disappointed. This whole things sounds like they are running out of time so they are leaving Klingons 1/2 done. I am hoping that I am wrong and just being worried, but this situation does make me nervous for ST:O.

I can't help but to feel this way as well. Until I get more details it sounds like they are just trying to rush this out the door. I don't mind having a different experience for the Klingon faction, but saying that they are going to be mostly pvp focused sounds lazy to me. I thought that the devs were trying to give us an overall Trek experience. Not force us to play one way or the other.

[Kriss]

I think there are way too many assumptions being made about what has been said, and then people are making arguments based on those assumptions that have no real concrete evidence.


Well, thats what happens when the powers that be refuse to give to fans ANY information and responses to their questions.

They have dedicated liaisons to go from here to the dev team and back yet we don't hear sh**. Now why would you suppose that would be?

As a lot of here think and as more and more time goes by....we start thinking they don't even HAVE any information because there isn't much Klingon stuff even in the game. They themselves don't even know what they are going to put in!

They spent a year or more for the Feds yet they haven't gotten s*** for the Klingons. That right there gives us in SOLID impression they really don't care to have a full second faction and that they are an after-though....a 'filler' per say.

The writing is on the wall. The only difference is some of us see it and some care to ignore it and pretend it doesn't even exist.

And i'll tell you what will make it even worse. They will try to give us as little info about the klingon game-play as they can get away with and it won't be "activated" during the beta. They will keep "telling us" that everything is ok and it will be there.

And once everyone has given them their 200 lifetime membership and pre-ordered the game in mass, we'll finally find out the truth. .....

[mrwalsh]

I am rather disappointed. This whole things sounds like they are running out of time so they are leaving Klingons 1/2 done. I am hoping that I am wrong and just being worried, but this situation does make me nervous for ST:O.

It feels like that because they haven't said much of anything at all about Klingons. It may be the truth, but from what is presented we have no way of knowing that. I'd say they haven't given us enough of anything to have worries about them yet, but that fact might be a worry to some. Considering the amount of info they've released in the just the past couple months in proportion to the amount of total info released on the game, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Not yet, anyway.

I don't mind having a different experience for the Klingon faction, but saying that they are going to be mostly pvp focused sounds lazy to me. I thought that the devs were trying to give us an overall Trek experience. Not force us to play one way or the other.

They didn't say Klingons are mostly PvP focused. They said Klingons are more PvP focused than Federation. The two statements have entirely different meanings.

It will be interesting to see if they did shoot for making the Klingons mostly PvP focused though. I think people are hating on the concept because it's been so poorly implemented in previous games, but it would be interesting to see how they do it. The difficulty in making one faction purely (or mostly) PvP and still balance the gameplay would be ridiculous. It would certainly be the opposite of lazy. Good PvE is much, much easier than compelling story based PvP that players will enjoy (you can make AI do whatever you want, but not players). They're creative, but I don't think they're that adventurous. We'll see when they post more info (or get us into Beta).

They have dedicated liaisons to go from here to the dev team and back yet we don't hear sh**. Now why would you suppose that would be?

I'd refer you back to my second post in this thread, back on page 7. PR is a delicate issue and has to be handled as such. At least they do respond to some degree, so we do know they're reading this. That's more than most studios can say.

[Rgoodfel]

I can't help but to feel this way as well. Until I get more details it sounds like they are just trying to rush this out the door. I don't mind having a different experience for the Klingon faction, but saying that they are going to be mostly pvp focused sounds lazy to me. I thought that the devs were trying to give us an overall Trek experience. Not force us to play one way or the other.

I would hesitate to call it lazy. The Devs only get so much development time. They can't spend years and years making a game. As another forum user put it, "There is no money making spell" so they can keep developing and make the perfect game.

I just hope if they do have a shallow Klingon experience, there is enough push to have them make a more full faction.

[Rgoodfel]

It feels like that because they haven't said much of anything at all about Klingons. It may be the truth, but from what is presented we have no way of knowing that. I'd say they haven't given us enough of anything to have worries about them yet, but that fact might be a worry to some. Considering the amount of info they've released in the just the past couple months in proportion to the amount of total info released on the game, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Not yet, anyway.


I agree with you I am not about to: put a "confidence in cryptic" meter in my sig and put it near zero, claim that I will not play the game, or any other grand standing silliness. Basically I can always console myself that a MMO is never finished and if the Klingon faction is a little shallow I will not worry too much.

Also, just to note I am totally happy to any all PvP associated with the Klingons. However, sometimes I like to chill out and do some PvE. I don't want to have a PvE alt in the Feds when I want to play a good mission.

[KirksOtherSon]

I agree.

I am hoping that it might be something less benign, like:

KDF PVE Content = ~90% FED PvE Content


Perhaps, like not having as much 'Exploration' and 'non-Combat' based content, but instead replacing that gap with PvP based content (House vs. House, etc).

What I worry about is that its more like 40% of FED PvE content, with PvP supposed to be filling the gap. WARHAMMER discovered that even PvPers get tired of just Pvping, and want a rich PvE game to dabble with and take breaks.


I imagine that the Klingon game will be PvP-centric with PvE options, while the Federation game will be PvE-centric with PvP options.

Of course, that's just a guess. I have no secret insight.

Cheers,

KOS

[NeoWolf]

I imagine that the Klingon game will be PvP-centric with PvE options, while the Federation game will be PvE-centric with PvP options.

Of course, that's just a guess. I have no secret insight.

Cheers,

KOS

That would not be good, it would also be a departure from what they stated originally, i.e that PVP would occur within specific zones (neutral zone etc..)... which was fine as that made it a "choice" EVERYONE could make for themselves.

Now suddenly we have the query of whether indeed that is purely the case, and whether or not it is in fact now the case that one of the two factions are predominatly PVP oriented, in which case the choice is removed, and we have 50% of the game for those that do and 50% for those that don't..which would be awful. Much better the game be 100% accessible to everyone with PVP being a choice Everyone can make as the mood takes them.

I wish they'd give us more info..this is painful lol

[Draconianknight]

I think there are way too many assumptions being made about what has been said, and then people are making arguments based on those assumptions that have no real concrete evidence.

Klingons are going to be more PVP oriented than Fed. This makes sense and this is actually what I was hoping for, because I wouldn't feel like a Klingon if it was the same Fed experience with a Klingon interface. I love Klingon lore and I hope they have plenty of content using that as a basis for PVE, but really I never thought I'd hear people who want to play as Klingons complain about having more advantages to advance into the end game content through glorious battle rather than grinding. Obviously it can't be ALL PVP combat stuff, but the PVP combat is always the most fun and engaging.

I will probably play Klingon in closed beta if I can to see what kind of content there is. If the Klingon side is like Unreal Tournament where you're just waiting for death matches to start, then yeah I will complain. If there's a main underlying Klingon story arc that drives you to combat and PVP and it flows nicely without grinding or repetitious content then why complain?

Hate to burst your bubble but Zinc stated that the Feds would be more episodic and Klingons more PvP.
Better you stick with the Feds.

[Loekii]

I imagine that the Klingon game will be PvP-centric with PvE options, while the Federation game will be PvE-centric with PvP options.

Of course, that's just a guess. I have no secret insight.

Cheers,

KOS

The thing is 'PvP' Centric content is very limited.

You can only do so much that is dependent upon 'Player enemies'. You cannot script the same amount of content as you can in PVE.

Hate to burst your bubble but Zinc stated that the Feds would be more episodic and Klingons more PvP.
Better you stick with the Feds.

The thing is 'more' has not been defined.

It could be a 50%, or only 5%.

[Draconianknight]

The thing is 'PvP' Centric content is very limited.

You can only do so much that is dependent upon 'Player enemies'. You cannot script the same amount of content as you can in PVE.



The thing is 'more' has not been defined.

It could be a 50%, or only 5%.

You are correct Loekii it has not been defined, I love the way you throw out precentages in almost every post and support Cryptic in every little thing, sometimes it sound as if you work for them.
So here is the basis of our concern on cutting access to PvE for the Klingons.

Craig Zinkievich: Yes! We plan on shipping with the ability to play as Federation and play on the Klingon side. The Klingon gameplay is going to be drastically different to the Federation gameplay. It's going to be a lot more focused on PvP; their advancement is a little bit different - it is not a full-on story-driven game like the Federation.


Craig Zinkievich: No, we'll be offering full-on character advancement: you will create a Klingon player, you will have his ship, he will level up. The content that they will be experiencing is a lot more focused on PvP - fighting the Federation, fighting House versus House within the Klingon empire. So it is a full-on character with advancement, with items, with bridge officers as well. So it's a lot more than the Monster Play.

This has its good points and its bad points. But as I keep trying to bring up AND everyone keeps blowing it off. Is the fact that Cryptic has said that you will have to explore to find new viable resources, races, skills etc etc. So now the Klingon access to this is going to be limited??Why??Is there a counter balance?? Do we raid Starfleet and take what you have found?? Hmm sounds like the Klingons have become "Pirates in Space".
I will say this much, Cryptic is sure living up to their name. They need to get up to speed and release some more concrete info on the Klingon faction. Otherwise they are just perpetuating the hard feelings and endless strings and threads of arguement and flaming between the Klingon and Federation supporters.

[Atavax]

You are correct Loekii it has not been defined, I love the way you throw out precentages in almost every post and support Cryptic in every little thing, sometimes it sound as if you work for them.
So here is the basis of our concern on cutting access to PvE for the Klingons.

Craig Zinkievich: Yes! We plan on shipping with the ability to play as Federation and play on the Klingon side. The Klingon gameplay is going to be drastically different to the Federation gameplay. It's going to be a lot more focused on PvP; their advancement is a little bit different - it is not a full-on story-driven game like the Federation.


Craig Zinkievich: No, we'll be offering full-on character advancement: you will create a Klingon player, you will have his ship, he will level up. The content that they will be experiencing is a lot more focused on PvP - fighting the Federation, fighting House versus House within the Klingon empire. So it is a full-on character with advancement, with items, with bridge officers as well. So it's a lot more than the Monster Play.

This has its good points and its bad points. But as I keep trying to bring up AND everyone keeps blowing it off. Is the fact that Cryptic has said that you will have to explore to find new viable resources, races, skills etc etc. So now the Klingon access to this is going to be limited??Why??Is there a counter balance?? Do we raid Starfleet and take what you have found?? Hmm sounds like the Klingons have become "Pirates in Space".
I will say this much, Cryptic is sure living up to their name. They need to get up to speed and release some more concrete info on the Klingon faction. Otherwise they are just perpetuating the hard feelings and endless strings and threads of arguement and flaming between the Klingon and Federation supporters.

if i were a developer on this game, and i was thinking how to make the Klingon and Federation factions different. One thing that isnt very Klingon is the federations exploration for the sake of exploration. now, that could be a solid chunk of pve that Klingons simply wont have. and the Klingons are simply more aggressive, so their should be more conflicts for the Klingons to address. and as someone planning on playing klingon if i do play the game, i definitely would be glad not to have to do quests that are exploration just for the sake of exploration, as long as i am never at a disadvantage for wanting to lvl through pve.

i would bet the quests to get new viable resources, races, skills, ect would not be part of the pve content withdrawn from Klingons.

another possibility that cannot be ruled out, is that zinc is a dumb **** and when he said pvp, he didnt mean player versus player combat, but simply combat in general.

another possibility abotu focus on pvp, is their could be alot more quests related to pvp; training for pvp, and quest rewards for accomplishing things in pvp.

[Atavax]

its gonna be interesting to see how endgame instances, raids, and pvp are balanced considering one faction is focused towards pve, and the other pvp.

[bullhead2007]

Hate to burst your bubble but Zinc stated that the Feds would be more episodic and Klingons more PvP.
Better you stick with the Feds.

I know what he said. I plan on playing both. He didn't say there will be no episodic content for Klingons. I'm guessing that the episodic content for Klingons will have more to do with battle, and will also have episodic PVP content that the Feds probably won't have (except end game).

In any case it's not logical or reasonable to sit here and speculate and assume things we know nothing of and then bicker about our assumptions all day until a Dev locks the thread or pays attention. Like I said I will reserve judgement until I can play as a Klingon, and if it doesn't feel as epic or loved as the Fed side I will definitely make constructive comments to the devs about it.