Rekhan Clears The Air on the Klingon "Unlocking" Topic

[elionbel]

Just posting this here because the original post is buried in 18 pages of a thread.
You can find the original post and topic here (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=822714).

Hey folks,
I just talked with Craig about this. Many of you guys were right - this is tutorial related. In fact, much of the "several hours" Craig mentioned in the article is taken up by the tutorial, which is in fact Federation-specific.

We opted to create a single tutorial due to time constraints. We wanted to make the tutorial engaging and informative and give players the knowledge they need to enter the game world and be viable both in space and on the ground. We think we accomplished this goal. However, the tutorial is also something you'll likely play through once (we have plans on making it skippable), which means focusing extra energy on a second tutorial that teaches you the same thing, only with an entirely new art and level set, would take more time than we'd like to spend on a mission you won't be talking about or playing after your first day in the game. It's just a question of assignation of designers and prioritizing our content so we can focus on the good, really memorable stuff throughout the game, rather than right at the beginning.

This is in reference to:
From Eurogamer (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/star-trek-online-interview_9?page=1)

Ok there seems to be something on the latest article with Zinc that concerns me .

"Eurogamer: You mentioned unlock earlier - are the Klingons going to be available from the start?

Craig Zinkievich: The Klingon gameplay will unlock, but not deep in the game - it will take several hours to unlock the ability to create a Klingon player. "

EDIT:
Keep this in mind: This is a very limited explanation from Zinc Hopefully. we will get some detailed info on it , so it does make some more sense

[Swordopolis]

Hey folks,
I just talked with Craig about this. Many of you guys were right - this is tutorial related. In fact, much of the "several hours" Craig mentioned in the article is taken up by the tutorial, which is in fact Federation-specific.

We opted to create a single tutorial due to time constraints. We wanted to make the tutorial engaging and informative and give players the knowledge they need to enter the game world and be viable both in space and on the ground. We think we accomplished this goal. However, the tutorial is also something you'll likely play through once (we have plans on making it skippable), which means focusing extra energy on a second tutorial that teaches you the same thing, only with an entirely new art and level set, would take more time than we'd like to spend on a mission you won't be talking about or playing after your first day in the game. It's just a question of assignation of designers and prioritizing our content so we can focus on the good, really memorable stuff throughout the game, rather than right at the beginning.

Phew. That's good to hear.

[billybob442]

Thinks for bringing this up to the "top level" so it's easy to find.

... and thanks Rekhan for clearing that up for us. Yeah, I'd much rather Cryptic used the time to create faction specific game play than faction specific tutorials any day.

[Neligahn]

I agree wholeheartedly.

If the content and control is the same for all factions, why waste time setting up two identical but graphically different tutorials when only one is needed. That way you can spend the extra time working on new ships and the like.

[Hagon]

So a person that plans on playing a Klingon has to go through a Federation tutorial?

[sabrehawk]

If it is the same exact mission, what would make it so hard to switch out ships so that the Klingon player has their own tutorial?

Don't developers have access to a replace all function?

[Exist-nl-]

So a person that plans on playing a Klingon has to go through a Federation tutorial?

yes, but hopefully it will be a Bootcamp with a quick pre-made redshirt

[madhax]

So a person that plans on playing a Klingon has to go through a Federation tutorial?

No, they don't have to. They could skip it.

[Pyrceval]

No, they don't have to. They could skip it.

Only after going through it once.

[Pipsqueek78]

So a person that plans on playing a Klingon has to go through a Federation tutorial?

Yes, that's what the post said. However, it's just a tutorial and then you get to play your Klingon. The post also mentioned that they may make the tutorial skippable, so if you wanted then you could be Klingon from the get go, and just forgo the tutorial.

[thefrayl]

So a person that plans on playing a Klingon has to go through a Federation tutorial?

That's what I'm gathering from the 2nd quote as well... and I have to say I'm not too fond of the idea.

As for the first quote, I thought Rekhan was talking about a "Skip Tutorial Zone" button for those who have passed it and do not wish to go through it every time they create an alt...

[Vicelance]

Good to know I especially like the part about perhaps skipping the tutorial after the first time. Most of the character's I've made in champions I haven't leveled because I don't want to keep going through the tutorial.

[Tain]

Well, thats pretty crap, no matter how they want to spin it.:(

[Swordopolis]

If it is the same exact mission, what would make it so hard to switch out ships so that the Klingon player has their own tutorial?

Don't developers have access to a replace all function?

It's more complicated than simply switching out ships. The objectives would be different, the tone would be different, there's probably a voice-over which would have to be duplicated, etc.

[Tain]

The bigger problem with this is not that the tutorials would have to be different, they SHOULD be different! But rather cryptic has decided to settle for mediocrity with the very first freaking experience most players are going to have in the game. You only get ONE chance for a first impression, and what first impression is it going to be? That they can't be bothered to create a new player experience for a faction that makes up half their game. Talk about setting the bar low.

[elionbel]

The bigger problem with this is not that the tutorials would have to be different, they SHOULD be different! But rather cryptic has decided to settle for mediocrity with the very first freaking experience most players are going to have in the game. You only get ONE chance for a first impression, and what first impression is it going to be? That they can't be bothered to create a new player experience for a faction that makes up half their game. Talk about setting the bar low.In an MMO, first impressions don't mean much. Star Wars Galaxies had a GREAT first impression with the classes they had and the crafting options and just the overall feel of it.

Conversely, WoW had a really horrible first impression due to the servers being overly overpopulated (3 hour queues) and majority of the servers staying offline for days at a time. Not to mention some classes which were just plain undesirable/unplayable (locks and shamans right out the door).

[Bastrol]

If its only a couple hours I dont see what everyone is complaining about. So what if you have to run through the tutorial as a Fed, BIG DEAL. After that you can become your precious Klingon warrior and never look back. If it is a one time thing I think everyone can take a deep breath and just accept it.

I haven't decided who to play as and if I choose to become part of the Klingon faction I know I can suck it up and play the tutorial as a Fed.

[SelorKiith]

/me sits quietly there, just holding up a sign with a big "I told you so" Sticker on it...

[TruthSeer]

Now I'm wondering, when we start the tutorial, do we actually make our character or are we given a generic one to play around with? It would be kind of pointless for someone planning on playing a Klingon character to have to make a character for the tutorial only to be forced to make a new one.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

Um...its called "Dev tracker", and its on the front page of the forum :o

[elionbel]

/me sits quietly there, just holding up a sign with a big "I told you so" Sticker on it...*grabs your sign and scribbles "PEacE lOVe & HapPinESs!!!!" all over it with large pink, green, and purple markers*

>^.^<

[The.Grand.Nagus]

*grabs your sign and scribbles "PEacE lOVe & HapPinESs!!!!" all over it with large pink, green, and purple markers*

>^.^<

*elionbel wakes up after being KOd while trying to grab SelorKIth's sign* :o

[Deyvid]

I don't mind there being a Fed-related tutorial, but from what Rekhan posted, the Klingons wouldn't be "unlocked" immediately following the tutorial. "Much of" the several hours is the tutorial, not "all of" the several hours. Which means we will do the Fed-centric tutorial, then have to play as Federation for some time before unlocking the ability to make a Klingon.

EDIT:
Aside from the Unlocking issue, another distressing part from the interview is this:

The Klingon gameplay is going to be drastically different to the Federation gameplay. It's going to be a lot more focused on PvP; their advancement is a little bit different - it is not a full-on story-driven game like the Federation.

I hope they will expand the Klingon faction content, even if it is in a post-launch Free Content Update.

[elionbel]

*elionbel wakes up after being KOd while trying to grab SelorKIth's sign* :o
so mean >.<

[nagash303]

The bigger problem with this is not that the tutorials would have to be different, they SHOULD be different! But rather cryptic has decided to settle for mediocrity with the very first freaking experience most players are going to have in the game. You only get ONE chance for a first impression, and what first impression is it going to be? That they can't be bothered to create a new player experience for a faction that makes up half their game. Talk about setting the bar low.

i second this.
Its like a klingon that uses a phaser instead of a bathleth for melee. Its like klingon akademy is bankrupted. Its like cardassians are trustworthy. this is just not right.

[Deyvid]

** Deyvid tosses a d'k tahg dagger to elionbel. :)

bortaS bIr jablu'DI' reH QaQqu' nay'.
Revenge is a dish which is best served cold.

[Musterion]

Just because there might be a "skip tutorial" button oncewe've completed it once, doesn't mean Cryptic can or should skimp on the tutorial. Starfleet and Klingons should absolutely have separate tutorials, simply for immersion and to show that Cryptic gives a damn about the Klingons as much as they do Starfleet.

If Starfleet and Klingon gameplay is truly different and unique, like they claim, then a separate tutorial for them would be a handy thing. This is a bad decision :(

[Tain]

In an MMO, first impressions don't mean much. Star Wars Galaxies had a GREAT first impression with the classes they had and the crafting options and just the overall feel of it.

Conversely, WoW had a really horrible first impression due to the servers being overly overpopulated (3 hour queues) and majority of the servers staying offline for days at a time. Not to mention some classes which were just plain undesirable/unplayable (locks and shamans right out the door).

No offense, but its exactly the opposite. First impressions mean everything with a modern MMO. The game lives or dies by it. WoW was birthed in an entirely different era, without the level of competition that exists in the current mmo market. Modern gamers have a plethora of options to jump ship to should a game fail to meet initial expectations, and recent game launches have shown that they are more than happy to do this. The large volume of existing alternatives also serves to be a near guarantee that once you lose them, they won't be back.

Age of Conan and Warhammer Online are two good recent examples.

[elionbel]

** Deyvid tosses a d'k tahg dagger to elionbel. :)

bortaS bIr jablu'DI' reH QaQqu' nay'.
Revenge is a dish which is best served cold.
*uses it to clean up under her claws*

mrowwrr. thanks!!

*beams a smile to Deyvid*

>^.^<

(haha, too much IRC, I typed Dey+TAB and was like..eh?..)

[lajkalove]

thanks for the update on the klingon faction, not that i am going to play one to begin with anyway hehe

[Korrific]

** Deyvid tosses a d'k tahg dagger to elionbel. :)
* queues fight music from TOS

*uses it to clean up under her claws*
* stares for a second, sadly turns off fight music and skulks out of the thread

[gt5059b]

While I plan to play the Federation from the get go; I still find this unacceptable for our Klingon brothers. If Cryptic doesn't have the resources/time to do a Klingon tutorial; then they should be rethinking their schedule. What does this tell you about the rest of the content?

This is just very poor judgment on Cryptic's side if they let this go thru to the release. What if they had done the opposite and did a Klingon tutorial that all Starfleet had to go thru instead? I bet that would have caused an uproar.


I'm pretty sure Bioware isn't going to make a Sith player go thru the Jedi tutorial...

[Zinoviev]

Just because there might be a "skip tutorial" button oncewe've completed it once, doesn't mean Cryptic can or should skimp on the tutorial. Starfleet and Klingons should absolutely have separate tutorials, simply for immersion and to show that Cryptic gives a damn about the Klingons as much as they do Starfleet.

If Starfleet and Klingon gameplay is truly different and unique, like they claim, then a separate tutorial for them would be a handy thing. This is a bad decision :(

May be we should pull the developers away from polishing the game and adding content in preparation for beta to instead add a short tutorial for Klignon players so that after they finish the tutorial they can ask "where is the content?"

Not sure this is the best idea. Some people want cool tutorials, and some want great game play. Whatever is your bag. We could start a poll to see what people want more.

I vote better game play.

[syberghost]

No offense, but its exactly the opposite. First impressions mean everything with a modern MMO. The game lives or dies by it. WoW was birthed in an entirely different era, without the level of competition that exists in the current mmo market. Modern gamers have a plethora of options to jump ship to should a game fail to meet initial expectations, and recent game launches have shown that they are more than happy to do this. The large volume of existing alternatives also serves to be a near guarantee that once you lose them, they won't be back.

Age of Conan and Warhammer Online are two good recent examples.

Then again, there's EVE.

[erriku]

Now I'm wondering, when we start the tutorial, do we actually make our character or are we given a generic one to play around with? It would be kind of pointless for someone planning on playing a Klingon character to have to make a character for the tutorial only to be forced to make a new one.

I would think that most people will eventually try the other side of the tracks eventually. So making a Federation player and having it collect dust only to try it out after a few months is not that bad. I know for a fact I want a feddie alt so this works out great for me.

[Elboulevardo]

this is a darned if you do/dont for Cryptic im gonna guess

if players have to play through it once, there will be those to complain that they shouldnt be forced to play feds first if they want to play klingon

if cryptic makes it so you can skip the tutorial to quiet the masses that would complain, they will complain that they shouldnt be forced to skip it, and thet there should be a klingon tutorial first, its not fair that if they want to experience the tutorial that it only caters to fed players

*facepalm*

a 2 hour prefix to the thousands of hours that you'll be investing in this game i dont think is really that much of a cause for this kinda panic lols

[Faerlzress]

The single tutorial makes a lot of sense folks. I'm not sure why the Klingons are so whiney. Just buck up and get through the tutorial. Play the game a bit and learn the controls.

[Musterion]

May be we should pull the developers away from polishing the game and adding content in preparation for beta to instead add a short tutorial for Klignon players so that after they finish the tutorial they can ask "where is the content?"

Not sure this is the best idea. Some people want cool tutorials, and some want great game play. Whatever is your bag. We could start a poll to see what people want more.

I vote better game play.Odds are they'll be asking "where is the content", regardless. And that content will come, regardless, as the game progresses and ages. A good tutorial, to make Klingons feel as at home in STO as Starfleet players, is very important to helping foster that "faction" feel. PR cycle be damned, as right now this is just Starfleet Online, now with added Klingons.

It's just lazy,andt a slight to all Klingon fans of STO that they don't even get a basic tutorial.

[Peregrine_Falcon]

Starfleet and Klingons should absolutely have separate tutorials, simply for immersion and to show that Cryptic gives a damn about the Klingons as much as they do Starfleet.
I think it should be clear by now that they obviously don't.

Klingons appear to only exist to give Federation players someone to fight in PvP. By Craig's own admission the KDF side is going to be light on PvE content, they are much more PvP focused. Translation: "We want to have Klingons so the Federation has someone to fight against."

It's City of Heroes with its 27 zones of PvE content vs. City of Villains with its 8 zones of content all over again.

I guess that I need to just be the first to ask right now, "Why do the devs hate Klingons?"

;)

[lordpenquin]

If its only a couple hours I dont see what everyone is complaining about.

I could see a generic play through like in champions that's at most 30 minutes, but A FEW HOURS of a generic character? Since you won't keep it, you don't get xp or rep or whatever. This is a bad decision. What else will they be cutting out to save on production time? Hell... they haven't even released any information on Klingon content and now we get news that the Klingons won't even have their own tutorial?

It's like making a horde player play as an alliance character for the first 10 levels or something. It seems to me that Klingons are becoming second class citizens and are getting close to being edged out.

[Lepton]

Originally Posted by Rekhan
Hey folks,
I just talked with Craig about this. Many of you guys were right - this is tutorial related. In fact, much of the "several hours" Craig mentioned in the article is taken up by the tutorial, which is in fact Federation-specific.

We opted to create a single tutorial due to time constraints. We wanted to make the tutorial engaging and informative and give players the knowledge they need to enter the game world and be viable both in space and on the ground. We think we accomplished this goal. However, the tutorial is also something you'll likely play through once (we have plans on making it skippable), which means focusing extra energy on a second tutorial that teaches you the same thing, only with an entirely new art and level set, would take more time than we'd like to spend on a mission you won't be talking about or playing after your first day in the game. It's just a question of assignation of designers and prioritizing our content so we can focus on the good, really memorable stuff throughout the game, rather than right at the beginning.

Yet another indication that Klingons will not be a playable faction at launch. Entirely new art needed for a Klingon tutorial??? Like what? A Klingon UI? That better already exist. Federation ships to shoot at? We know those are there. A unique ground environment? Ah, Genesis system.

An entirely different level set?? What the heck does this mean? Character levels?? Game levels??

This really suggests to me that Klingons are being addressed the last of anything. I would not expect a rich gameplay experience on the Klingon side or anywhere near the same level of content or customization options. It's sad really.

[apexearth]

Makes total sense. Thanks for posting this information.

[Kuhr]

So a person that plans on playing a Klingon has to go through a Federation tutorial?

Yes...Only logical.

[tenchi314]

My big fear about having this single federation tutorial for both factions is that it may exacerbate the imbalance of Federation players compared to Klingon players. This is doubly true if the player has to take the time to create a unique Federation character for this tutorial. If that's the case then I think a great majority will just continue the Federation path with the character they took time to create. Meaning an even greater share of the player base being Federation.

Now if the tutorial was with generic Ensign Bob, then things would be mitigated to an extent, though it will still leave new players with a taste of the Federation as their first experience in the game. That taste will probably still translate into a greater share of undecided new players picking Federation.

[Exist-nl-]

Well if I start the game up for the first time and I get a message saying:
"Do you want to play the tutorial first"
Then I dont see a huge problem.

[Avantos]

Yeah, I'd much rather Cryptic used the time to create faction specific game play than faction specific tutorials any day.

I totally agree with this :)

[Ziktur]

I think Cryptic needs to hire some more people if there isn't the time to do things correctly.

Seriously, everything that I have read so far about this and the whole Klingon side just screams LAZY!

This isn't to be mean or anything, I just tell it how I see it. I don't plan on playing Klingon at all. Really, I don't plan on playing with other players other than my other half. But lets flip this the other way around. If one wanted to only play Feds and was forced to go through a Tutorial that is Klingon, and then play more as a Klingon before I could work with the Fed side would make me just uninstall the game the first day. I'd say screw it and go play something else (probably TOR).'

There is no reason to fully represent the both sides of the game. So when we might get other factions later on in the game life, will ALL races have to play through a Fed tutorial and more Fed play before they can do anything with the Faction that they'd rather be playing?

This is like wanting to play horde but being forced to play alliance for X amount of hours.

Also...HOURS ON A TUTORIAL!?!?! That is insane.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

I think Cryptic needs to hire some more people if there isn't the time to do things correctly.

Seriously, everything that I have read so far about this and the whole Klingon side just screams LAZY!

This isn't to be mean or anything, I just tell it how I see it. I don't plan on playing Klingon at all. Really, I don't plan on playing with other players other than my other half. But lets flip this the other way around. If one wanted to only play Feds and was forced to go through a Tutorial that is Klingon, and then play more as a Klingon before I could work with the Fed side would make me just uninstall the game the first day. I'd say screw it and go play something else (probably TOR).'

There is no reason to fully represent the both sides of the game. So when we might get other factions later on in the game life, will ALL races have to play through a Fed tutorial and more Fed play before they can do anything with the Faction that they'd rather be playing?

This is like wanting to play horde but being forced to play alliance for X amount of hours.

Also...HOURS ON A TUTORIAL!?!?! That is insane.

Your going to be flamed by the people who think that supporting everything Cryptic does is required to get into beta, but your right none the less. If Crypic doesnt have enough time to flesh out the Klingons with equal content as the Feds, including a tutorial, before their planned launch date, then they should either get more people or move the date.

[Ziktur]

Your going to be flamed by the people who think that supporting everything Cryptic does is required to get into beta, but your right none the less. If Crypic doesnt have enough time to flesh out the Klingons with equal content as the Feds, including a tutorial, before their planned launch date, then they should either get more people or move the date.

Phft. I care not for flames. Nothing anyone says here harms me in any way nor will I lose any sleep. I don't generally pull my verbal punches and I tend to be very blunt. Trust me, there isn't anyone on these boards I've seen so far that can even come close to some of the debates I've had with other people (in real life or on the net).

This is just the way I see it. I wonder if Cryptic might have bitten off more than they can chew? I understand that many people will be playing the Feds, for well...that is what Star Trek really does revolve around. But like many others will scream when it comes to nice features (even for PvE only features) this is A GAME and ALLOWANCES have to be allowed. This means the Klingon side should not just be there to give the Feds something to do.

Really, the whole "war" in the game I care very little about. I plan on taking most of my ships out to deep space and screw everyone else. I have real life people I'll be playing with and with your BO's allowing players to go into "dungeons" without the need of a whole group of people, I'm mostly going to be playing STO as a single player game.

[Zethyr]

I know they are seperate games but if WoW can have 8 seperate introductions for 8 seperate races and PVE content for all of them (soon to be 10 races) then surely Cryptic can manage it for 2!

[thefrayl]

Your going to be flamed by the people who think that supporting everything Cryptic does is required to get into beta, but your right none the less. If Crypic doesnt have enough time to flesh out the Klingons with equal content as the Feds, including a tutorial, before their planned launch date, then they should either get more people or move the date.

I completely agree. The Klingon experience I was hoping for since the announcement obviously won't be there at launch. The more I hear, the more I realize that. But one thing confuses me on this, they keep saying how very different the KDF experience will be from the UFP, and yet they share the same tutorial? Doesn't sound very different to me at all, just far less content, apparently...

I think it's a true shame that Cryptic is seemingly slapping the KDF side of things together like a PvP centric after thought. If they don't even have their own tutorial, then I don't even want to know what their PvE content will be like.

Anyways, I'm still excited to play, but this it truly disappointing news. As it stands now, I think I'm far less likely to follow through with my wishes to have a KDF main. I'll stick to UFP until things look better for the other side, as much as I hate to say it.

It really is Starfleet Online. :(

[The.Grand.Nagus]

I completely agree. The Klingon experience I was hoping for since the announcement obviously won't be there at launch. The more I hear, the more I realize that. But one thing confuses me on this, they keep saying how very different the KDF experience will be from the UFP, and yet they share the same tutorial? Doesn't sound very different to me at all, just far less content, apparently...

I think it's a true shame that Cryptic is seemingly slapping the KDF side of things together like a PvP centric after thought. If they don't even have their own tutorial, then I don't even want to know what their PvE content will be like.

Anyways, I'm still excited to play, but this it truly disappointing news. As it stands now, I think I'm far less likely to follow through with my wishes to have a KDF main. I'll stick to UFP until things look better for the other side, as much as I hate to say it.

It really is Starfleet Online. :(

I dont know if they think delaying launch would hurt their rep or what, but IMHO, I would have much more respect for them saying "we're going to delay launch to make sure the game is ready" than "we didnt have time to finish the Klingons".

[Loekii]

I dont know if they think delaying launch would hurt their rep or what, but IMHO, I would have much more respect for them saying "we're going to delay launch to make sure the game is ready" than "we didnt have time to finish the Klingons".

MMORPGs often do not have the luxury to 'hire more', or 'delay longer'.

They are operating on a fixed budget with a specific date. Gaining more funds is a difficult task.

This is why virtually all MMORPGs launch incomplete and with issues, rather than delaying their launch or hiring on more hands to fix the problems before hands.

There is no 'summon money' spell. :p

[nhamlett]

There is no 'summon money' spell. :p
That is the best quote I've ever seen! :)

[Ziktur]

I dont know if they think delaying launch would hurt their rep or what, but IMHO, I would have much more respect for them saying "we're going to delay launch to make sure the game is ready" than "we didnt have time to finish the Klingons".
__________________

Same here. I'd rather wait a few more months to JUST have bridge view, with the possiblity of bridge view combat in PvE missions. I'd rather play a game that is ready to be played than have a game not fully finished (as finished as a MMO can be) and have it right away. I'm an adult and have patience. Something this world (as in earth, not sto community) seems to be lacking in.

[Neligahn]

I think everyone is just being way too silly over this thing. The game's not even out yet and already people are trying to reach the depressing QQ levels of a games that's been out for four years.

So what if you have to share a tutorial, odds are the gameplay between the two factions is identical. Ships will fly/fight the same, group operations will work the same way for either side. The only difference is in organization.

People really need to take a wait and see attitude with this. A lot of guesswork and opinions are being thrown around as fact even though we have no information saying what's true. Chill, peeps, let the QQ flow out of you and just C.H.I.L.L....

Thank you.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

That is the best quote I've ever seen! :)

While your here, maybe you could shed some light on the conerns people have? :p

[thefrayl]

I dont know if they think delaying launch would hurt their rep or what, but IMHO, I would have much more respect for them saying "we're going to delay launch to make sure the game is ready" than "we didnt have time to finish the Klingons".

As would I...

But, Loekii makes a good point... money doesn't grow on trees . I would rather have the game hit shelves lacking a bit of content then to be delayed and ultimately cancelled due to budget constraints.

Given the situation at hand, I would at least like to see a effort to expand the KDF side of things put on the top of Cryptic's post launch "To do list".

[RogueEnterprise]

I understand that this is is probably a time and budget issue or whatever.... but having a different game intro experience for the other faction ("half the game", supposedly) seems like it would be extremely important.

From the stuff that they've put online for the community, it seems a lot like the Klingons are going to be some kind of PVP afterthought for the majority of the game and that most of the game is going to be based on your Starfleet characters. Either that, or they havent implemented most of the Klingon content and the community and web teams are going to have to redo most of their content once the Klingon stuff actually starts rolling out.

Plus, since all players will have to have a Starfleet character first before they can even make a Klingon, I think that translates to even more emphasis in terms of percentage of the playerbase playing Starfleet characters.

Of course we are speculating a lot here, and I'm willing to wait and see how things are going to work, but considering most everything I've seen from Cryptic has been pretty amazing, this has been one of the only times I haven't felt that great about the game's direction.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

As would I...

But, Loekii makes a good point... money doesn't grow on trees . I would rather have the game hit shelves lacking a bit of content then to be delayed and ultimately cancelled due to budget constraints.

Given the situation at hand, I would at least like to see a effort to expand the KDF side of things put on the top of Cryptic's post launch "To do list".

If that were truly the ONLY option, then obviously I agree. However, its much more likely that Cryptic(or certainy Atari) has the money, but simply may not want to spend it. If that is the case, then see all my last post :p

[morgansshadow]

I have absolutely no intention of playing a Klingon character, but I do think both sides should have an equal amount of content and thought put into them. The Klingons should have their own tutorial. Whether that can happen or not, I can't say, I'm not a developer. I understand the limitations of budgets and timelines.

Despite my Fed-love, I can step back and think about how I would feel if I were someone totally psyched about playing a Klingon, and if I were I would be very disappointed right now.

And then, I'd probably play my own devil's advocate and say "Klingons are a warrior race, it makes more sense to make them PvP oriented."

And then I'd hate myself for confusing myself. :P

[Roy_Vash]

I don't think it's lazy or irresponsible or a cruel trick on prospective players.

I think we may be in the grip of the Nostradamus Effect. We're attempting to judge the future paradigm by the past. Poor old Nostradamus has a vision of WW III and has to try and get his 15th century mind around sights and sounds that his experience has not prepared him for.

Sure, other games can make 8 different versions of the same tutorial. Maybe STO is breaking some new ground with the Episode approach (think JJs first 5 minutes of film) and it may just compensate everyone for having the patience to wait for their real characters.

We may even be seeing a bit of the concept in the road to 2409. I agree that judging by the past experience we've had in games the concept doesn't jibe, but maybe, just maybe we'll see something new where the skeleton of information we've been given will flesh out into something more satisfying.

[Ziktur]

Sure, other games can make 8 different versions of the same tutorial. Maybe STO is breaking some new ground with the Episode approach (think JJs first 5 minutes of film) and it may just compensate everyone for having the patience to wait for their real characters.

Too bad the first 5 minutes were one of the only goods thing about the movie! Hopefully STO won't be the same way.

[mdelbranson]

I can empathize with time and money constraints, and if having Klingons be a secondary race with no tutorial and less pve content is simply unavoidable, then so be it.

It is worrisome though that the development schedule is so strained that they are cutting out content that would seem very basic and expected by the community. A racially separate faction with no tutorial and a lobotomized plan for content... that sounds really lackluster to me, and if I wanted to play a Klingon, I'd be really put off.

Game mechanics will hopefully be really fun and engaging, because if they're making hard decisions like this about content development, it will need to be. I don't envy the person who has to make those decisions, because this is surely going to have a negative impact on the first impression many players have of STO, and weighing that against available time and money has to be frustrating.

I, for one, am more skeptical now about the completeness and depth of content there will be at launch. God speed, devs.

[Dondead]

MMORPGs often do not have the luxury to 'hire more', or 'delay longer'.

They are operating on a fixed budget with a specific date. Gaining more funds is a difficult task.

This is why virtually all MMORPGs launch incomplete and with issues, rather than delaying their launch or hiring on more hands to fix the problems before hands.

There is no 'summon money' spell. :p

Haha leave it to Loekii to come up with a line like that. :D

On a more serious note...
Although I do agree with you, a game that lacks low and mid level content at launch, could lead to its own downfall. If it lacks endgame content, at least people could be kept at bay for a little while with pvp.
On the other hand, if the budget doesn’t allow for enough time to finish development. I’d rather have an early launch than nothing at all. It would at least get some cash flowing, so Cryptic could continue development.
But perhaps there is another solution... Paid open beta anyone? At least then people would know that the game isn’t finished yet, and Cryptic would get some cash flowing in. ;)

[Ziktur]

Paid open beta anyone? At least then people would know that the game isn’t finished yet, and Cryptic would get some cash flowing in.

This is something I"ve said over and over and over and over in the IRC. It really is the way to go. They already sold their souls by allowing the CO beta buyin, so what is so bad about preorder beta. Stardock THRIVES off this! Cryptic needs to do the same.

[thefreshjedi]

So a person that plans on playing a Klingon has to go through a Federation tutorial?

It basically boils down to time, funding and laziness. I assume they feel that you will get what you need from the Federation tutorial, so why duplicate your efforts making a Klingon tutorial that will be essentially the same thing? And since the tutorial will be skippable it's not like you really "have" to do anything. Except for maybe the first time around? I dunno.

-avery

[wrussandrews]

I suspect there will be a Klingon tutorial eventually. They do have time constraints, after all.

[mprhead5]

Unacceptable!

plain and simple how are we supposed to get into the game when we have to take lessions for those federation DOGS!!!!

The first few hours of an MMO had to grab you and throw you into the universe otherwise people may just up and give up on it. I would be frusterated as a klingon player having to go through the fed totorial then just get dumped into klingon space.

I think the totorial should emmerse you and get you hyped up about getting into the game and having fun. Plain and simple forcing players to get their basic training from the enemy is foolish.

there is already going to be way more fed players than klingons anyway so throw us a bone here!

don't make us the red headed step children of the galaxy not even deserving of our own compelling introduction

[Draconianknight]

OK this is how I translate this. This is going to be how Cryptic gets Klingons into the game at launch.
Remember, they have said that only the Alpha quadrant will be available at launch. I shouldnt have to remind anyone that the Klingon homeworld is NOT in the Alpha quadrant. So this brings the question of where do Klingon players start out at.
Answer: We make them start out on the Federation side and the go through the torturial and prob. end up in Klingon controlled territory such as Khitomer. Again this is just my theory, but you have to admit based on Zinc's interview, a sound theory.

"Craig Zinkievich: Yes! We plan on shipping with the ability to play as Federation and play on the Klingon side. The Klingon gameplay is going to be drastically different to the Federation gameplay. It's going to be a lot more focused on PvP; their advancement is a little bit different - it is not a full-on story-driven game like the Federation.

Eurogamer: You mentioned unlock earlier - are the Klingons going to be available from the start?

Craig Zinkievich: The Klingon gameplay will unlock, but not deep in the game - it will take several hours to unlock the ability to create a Klingon player.

Eurogamer: It sounds like Monster Play from Lord of the Rings Online, which unlocks at 10 and provides a 'nasty' faction for the good guys to fight in PvP - at the appropriate levels. Is that what you're doing?

Craig Zinkievich: No, we'll be offering full-on character advancement: you will create a Klingon player, you will have his ship, he will level up. The content that they will be experiencing is a lot more focused on PvP - fighting the Federation, fighting House versus House within the Klingon empire. So it is a full-on character with advancement, with items, with bridge officers as well. So it's a lot more than the Monster Play.

"

[rabidchocobo]

The Klingons are coming!

Hide the redshirts!!

[Banar]

OK this is how I translate this. This is going to be how Cryptic gets Klingons into the game at launch.
Remember, they have said that only the Alpha quadrant will be available at launch. I shouldnt have to remind anyone that the Klingon homeworld is NOT in the Alpha quadrant. So this brings the question of where do Klingon players start out at.
Answer: We make them start out on the Federation side and the go through the torturial and prob. end up in Klingon controlled territory such as Khitomer. Again this is just my theory, but you have to admit based on Zinc's interview, a sound theory.[/COLOR]

You're reading to much into the alpha quadrant availability quote. I'm sure what was meant was the alpha quadrant powers, which the Klingons include themselves as a part of. It would make absolutely no sense to have the klingons as a playable faction without including their Capital. According to most charts, Only half of the Federation is in the Alpha Quadrant, with none or very little of the Klingon or Romulan empires at all.

[Trekkie]

Even though I don't plan on playing a Klingon (unless it is an alternate character or something like that) this is good news. I think having a single universal tutorial may actually be a good thing, too, depending on how exactly it is structured. I am interested to see if there are any players that may be interested in playing a Klingon only to end up keeping their initial character though, mostly because the balance between Federation players and Klingon players will already likely be sizable and this may just make it worse.

[Musterion]

Part of me thinks the devs will jump ou and shout "PSYCH!" at some point :p

[Mr_Terrian]

I don't really like what I'm reading here, I do hope they come on here Monday and answer some of the questions we all have.

[Roy_Vash]

Too bad the first 5 minutes were one of the only goods thing about the movie! Hopefully STO won't be the same way.

You mean good?

[Aktuh_Telpeh]

Sounds like a cop out to push the game out the door quickly, skimping on need content. I realize it can be added later with all our other wants, but like when 3-6 months, 6-12 months, or oops we forgot, but here's content for other races, we'll go back and finish the Klingon stuff now. :( STO is to pro Federation.

[Tamgros]

I think Rekhan said before that development is like like gaming triage, they really just have to go with what is more important. I'd rather see them get player made starbases and structures in.


There are a few games, such as EVE that survivie just fine without the story driven content. STO could have an EVE side of the game with Feds and Klingons. You'd have resource/territory control with a somewhat robust player economy. You'd also have a story driven side with just the feds. This would both mimic the shows and be a very efficient use of development time.

[LordDave]

Ok, now I'm really worried.
It sounds to me like they're too constrained time wise and will likely release a sub-par game because of it. Pity.

[Zael]

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU UUUUUUUUUUU........

would have been my reaction if I had not seen rekhan's earlier post. Thanks for clearing it up and avoiding a major catastrophe around my house. Klingons ftw!

[Bounder]

Klingon players should probably just look at this as a "get to know thy potential enemy" holo simulation that they go through at some point. :)

Just looking for the silver lining, or a no-prize.

[Kriss]

Originally Posted by Rekhan
Hey folks,
I just talked with Craig about this. Many of you guys were right - this is tutorial related. In fact, much of the "several hours" Craig mentioned in the article is taken up by the tutorial, which is in fact Federation-specific.

We opted to create a single tutorial due to time constraints. We wanted to make the tutorial engaging and informative and give players the knowledge they need to enter the game world and be viable both in space and on the ground. We think we accomplished this goal. However, the tutorial is also something you'll likely play through once (we have plans on making it skippable), which means focusing extra energy on a second tutorial that teaches you the same thing, only with an entirely new art and level set, would take more time than we'd like to spend on a mission you won't be talking about or playing after your first day in the game. It's just a question of assignation of designers and prioritizing our content so we can focus on the good, really memorable stuff throughout the game, rather than right at the beginning.


So.....I really need to get this right. You want Klingon players.....to go through a tutorial specifically made for the federation that will last oh...1.5-2 hours?

And as the game company, you have said you want all the players to feel as if they are PART of the game, IE- feel part of canon. So I have to ask....how in the name of all that is Holy does this fit into immersion?

Every stinking game out there, no matter what side you play...has it's OWN intro designed specifically for that faction. Take LOTR. It has 4 races. Each race, no matter what class you pick has it's SEPARATE into. Let us count..... one.....two....three......four!

And you have TWO factions and you can't even come up with two intros for them? Are you guys for real? Are you that behind in this game that you have to rush both factions into one intro, immersion or anything else be damned??

If your only excuse is that you are on time constraints, then what else have you guys skimped on in the game? I'm seriously afraid to ask!

If you are seriously that gimped for time, I suggest you do the RIGHT thing to do and forgo the march launch and do the fricking game RIGHT, the first time! Unless you guys just haven't gotten the CLUE from every other crappy game out there that fails at launch! You get one shot. **** it up and you're DEAD! Or is that just too complicated to understand?

[Kriss]

Sounds like a cop out to push the game out the door quickly, skimping on need content. I realize it can be added later with all our other wants, but like when 3-6 months, 6-12 months, or oops we forgot, but here's content for other races, we'll go back and finish the Klingon stuff now. :( STO is to pro Federation.

This pretty much sums it up too I'd say. Want to know why none of us has seen Klingon anything? Because they don't have it! They probably still don't have a Klingon story-line to even start with!

Two faction game.....yea right. Since all we have seen is one faction and the game is supposedly going into beta in a month or two? This game is looking worse and worse by the week.

[lordpenquin]

So what happened? They were working on champions online and wound up getting star trek in the bargin bin so they decided to split the team in half? Champions is already half a mmo (only *just* enough content for ONE character to get from 1 to cap, only if you do the content correctly and don't miss anything) and now it looks like they are just chucking the Klingon side of star trek? What's the business plan? Bring out two incomplete and sloppy mmorpgs at the same time instead of bringing out one good one? Are you trying to go bankrupt on purpose?

[Kaybok]

I think it should be clear by now that they obviously don't.

Klingons appear to only exist to give Federation players someone to fight in PvP. By Craig's own admission the KDF side is going to be light on PvE content, they are much more PvP focused. Translation: "We want to have Klingons so the Federation has someone to fight against."

It's City of Heroes with its 27 zones of PvE content vs. City of Villains with its 8 zones of content all over again.

I guess that I need to just be the first to ask right now, "Why do the devs hate Klingons?"

;)

I been posting & warning Cryptic not to repeat the City of Heroes / City of Villains disparity. I guess all this work had already been completed. Oh well... All I can do is hope it turns out better than before.

[Kriss]

I been posting & warning Cryptic not to repeat the City of Heroes / City of Villains disparity. I guess all this work had already been completed. Oh well... All I can do is hope it turns out better than before.


Hope accomplishes nothing. History is staring you and the rest of us right in the face yet we choose to ignore it.

Who is more the fool? The fool or the fool who follows him?

[dr_truth]

Keep in mind that STO is not about to be launched, it is about to go into beta. A state where content is missing, and yea, lopsided toward one faction. That's life and that is the Tragedy of playing Beta (open or closed).

Yes, it stinks hard core, and i am rather hurt by the lack of Klingon information thus far. But, that does not prove it will be lacking in the beta and even if it is... it IS a beta. That is simply reality. If the game actually launches with "Star trek: online (guest appearance: the Klingons)" then there is validity to the complaints.

It would be foolish to wait until all the content is put in before Beta, instead they are going to have us test the content that is there now (even if it is 80% fed and 20% Klingon) and then test the rest as it comes out and have it all working by launch. It is better time management to Polish up and work on some content while the rest if being tested.

Your going to be flamed by the people who think that supporting everything Cryptic does is required to get into beta, but your right none the less. If Crypic doesnt have enough time to flesh out the Klingons with equal content as the Feds, including a tutorial, before their planned launch date, then they should either get more people or move the date.

Oh nice, So anyone who argues against your point is only doing to to get into beta. Doesn't matter how much reasoning or logic or understanding one has. It comes down to everyone who disagrees with you is just brown-nosing. You just keep thinking that.

[Kaybok]

Hope accomplishes nothing. History is staring you and the rest of us right in the face yet we choose to ignore it.

Who is more the fool? The fool or the fool who follows him?

You had better hope as well because we won't know additional Klingon info until PR decides to release it. You can post for changes all you want but their schedule is set & decisions already made. I don't expect any major changes/additions until after launch. That's why Klingons have to do a Fed tutorial. So yeah, we all better hope Klingons get more love in the coming PR releases or this feeling of disparity will get worse.

[rogerwroten]

Haha leave it to Loekii to come up with a line like that. :D

On a more serious note...
Although I do agree with you, a game that lacks low and mid level content at launch, could lead to its own downfall. If it lacks endgame content, at least people could be kept at bay for a little while with pvp.
On the other hand, if the budget doesn’t allow for enough time to finish development. I’d rather have an early launch than nothing at all. It would at least get some cash flowing, so Cryptic could continue development.
But perhaps there is another solution... Paid open beta anyone? At least then people would know that the game isn’t finished yet, and Cryptic would get some cash flowing in. ;)

A lot of MMOs already have "paid open beta". It is called launching before the game is ready for launch. :D

[rogerwroten]

It basically boils down to time, funding and laziness. I assume they feel that you will get what you need from the Federation tutorial, so why duplicate your efforts making a Klingon tutorial that will be essentially the same thing? And since the tutorial will be skippable it's not like you really "have" to do anything. Except for maybe the first time around? I dunno.

-avery

Here is a question for you, or anyone who wants to try and answer... Will you create a Fed character and play the tutorial then create a Klingon character? Or will you play the tutorial with a generic character and then create your character, be it Fed or Klingon?

[Kaybok]

Here is a question for you, or anyone who wants to try and answer... Will you create a Fed character and play the tutorial then create a Klingon character? Or will you play the tutorial with a generic character and then create your character, be it Fed or Klingon?

From what I read the unlocking sounds like another Klingon Character slot that is added to your list of toons. So after unlock you would have a Fed and a Kling toon. I could be wrong but that's the impression I got.

[thefrayl]

Here is a question for you, or anyone who wants to try and answer... Will you create a Fed character and play the tutorial then create a Klingon character? Or will you play the tutorial with a generic character and then create your character, be it Fed or Klingon?

I'm pretty sure that's still up in the air on our end. I would assume that you keep the federation character you created to unlock (UGH...) the Klingon side...

It still doesn't make sense to me. I hope it does when I actually end up playing the game...

[lordpenquin]

Does anyone know if Cryptic has some sort of contractural obligation with CBS to deliver this "product" within a certain timeframe? If that's the case, this explains the FULL SPEED AHEAD! DAMN THE KLINGONS!!!! approach.

[thefrayl]

Does anyone know if Cryptic has some sort of contractural obligation with CBS to deliver this "product" within a certain timeframe? If that's the case, this explains the FULL SPEED AHEAD! DAMN THE KLINGONS!!!! approach.

Not with CBS, but we know that Atari has a deadline.

[rogerwroten]

From what I read the unlocking sounds like another Klingon Character slot that is added to your list of toons. So after unlock you would have a Fed and a Kling toon. I could be wrong but that's the impression I got.

I'm pretty sure that's still up in the air on our end. I would assume that you keep the federation character you created to unlock (UGH...) the Klingon side...

It still doesn't make sense to me. I hope it does when I actually end up playing the game...

So do we know if you will gain experience or skills by doing the tutorial? Or will it just be to learn the game and get no other benefit from it?

[Kaybok]

So do we know if you will gain experience or skills by doing the tutorial? Or will it just be to learn the game and get no other benefit from it?

The available data to calculate a response to your query is insufficient at this time, sir.

[Norexan-Guy]

I really hope that the tutorial will cover both Fed and Klingon items, if completing a tutorial with a generic redshirt really was the sole thing to do to be able to play as either faction... If a single tutorial was the best they could do they'd better have items of both factions so either faction could get to know the other.

I'd have preferred that they skimp the endgame rather than the early game, if they had to skimp content. I would have preferred two tutorials - and it would bode ill if they made an expansion to four factions (Rommies and Cardassians) one day.

[Gideon]

I'd always planned to play Federation side but I think that the shared tutorial is very disappointing. I still plan to play the game but this has raised some concerns about corners being cut. What else is going to be trimmed to meet the release deadline? I'm also concerned by this wording:

The Klingon gameplay will unlock, but not deep in the game - it will take several hours to unlock the ability to create a Klingon player.

and this

In fact, much of the "several hours" Craig mentioned in the article is taken up by the tutorial, which is in fact Federation-specific

that you'll have to play more than just the tutorial to unlock the Klingon content. We don't have all the details and maybe the "unlocking" will be presented in a way that works well. My fear is that it will feel rushed and tacked on. All we can do is give feedback now and during beta and hope that this turns out better than some of us think.

[Talonsin]

I dont really mind the shared tutorial much but I was really hoping to play as a Klingon from the start. I dont mind doing the tutorial as a Fed but I would very much like to have the option of being a Klingon right after the tutorial.

My fear is that if everyone has to play the Fed for the first 4 to 8 hours, the newbie areas will be over run at launch. Do any of you remember when WOW released Burning Crusade? The Blood Elf area was packed and doing quests was terrible because 20 people were waiting around for something to spawn that we all needed. Thats not what you want at launch...

[Interdictor]

Hmmmmmmmm......not sure what to think on this one.

Looking at it from a limited time-and-money development standpoint, I can understand.

If there is to be one tutorial - hopefully it will be faction-neutral. You go through it, learning about things present in EACH faction, and when you finish, THEN you go on to join Starfleet or the KDF, and create your character, select your starting ship, etc.

This would make it easier to intergrate new features into the tutorial when new features or factions are added as well.

It would be....unfortunate....if there was only a single Fed-based tutorial. I would really prefer a Klingon one as well - especially considering they would use different tactics with their cloaking devices and fighters for instance.

[Sumdian]

This is making me a very sad panda being forced to play the feds before i can play klingon i wanted to have nothing to do with the fed side of the game at all not even 1 time so this is star fleet online and not star trek online i hope its changed before the games out why cant i do the tutorial as a klingon ?

[Draconianknight]

[COLOR="Lime"]"The really cool thing is launching the game and then all of a sudden you don't have a team of 50 developers trying to figure out what to do, you have hundreds of thousands of players saying, "This is what we want!" So you definitely have to make sure you're flexible and that you really pay attention to what your audience ends up wanting."

I must be missing something somewhere, because I just don't get the feeling they are listening to well.:(

[fyreblayd33]

The only way I could really see this working is if they started before the time period the game is set in. Say the tutorial is before the Klingon's depart from the federation. Then the joint tutorial could work well as the further you go in it you just jump forward in time getting closer and closer to the war. Then when it is time for the war they ask you to choose your side.

I am really hoping that this is how they did it but we will see.

[Draconianknight]

The only way I could really see this working is if they started before the time period the game is set in. Say the tutorial is before the Klingon's depart from the federation. Then the joint tutorial could work well as the further you go in it you just jump forward in time getting closer and closer to the war. Then when it is time for the war they ask you to choose your side.

I am really hoping that this is how they did it but we will see.

Hate to say it dude but the bottom line is $$$ and they are pushing to get it to market.
Klingon faction is suffering because of it.:(

[TheGow]

Both sides are going to play similar enough that only one tutorial is needed. This doesn't bother me at all. It's just a dang tutorial. You know, the thing that pops up at the beginning of games we want to play and annoy us. So we skim through it and try to skip as much as possible so that we can get on with playing the actual game. So is it really worth putting forth all that time and effort into a tutorial that everyone is going to play one time only and try to get through as quickly as possible?

Id rather them take the extra time and money and work on the actual over all game play itself. Would you rather them waste time making the same tutorial twice or spend that time adding more goodies for the Klingon's when you actually start playing the game?

I can't believe something so trivial to the game is making people cry this much. It's the first couple of hours in the game that you will never see again afterwards. It's not like they announced you will be flying a Klingon ship using a LCARS interface.

[fyreblayd33]

Both sides are going to play similar enough that only one tutorial is needed. This doesn't bother me at all. It's just a dang tutorial. You know, the thing that pops up at the beginning of games we want to play and annoy us. So we skim through it and try to skip as much as possible so that we can get on with playing the actual game. So is it really worth putting forth all that time and effort into a tutorial that everyone is going to play one time only and try to get through as quickly as possible?

Id rather them take the extra time and money and work on the actual over all game play itself. Would you rather them waste time making the same tutorial twice or spend that time adding more goodies for the Klingon's when you actually start playing the game?

I can't believe something so trivial to the game is making people cry this much. It's the first couple of hours in the game that you will never see again afterwards. It's not like they announced you will be flying a Klingon ship using a LCARS interface.


Yes but this is just like the rest of what he had said. We are going to be put down to nothing more than PvP all the time. No real story arc. We are an afterthought. We are there to give starfleet a PvP aspect. They have spent all this time and almost all of it is starfleet. Now it is almost time for the beta and they have almost nothing for the klingon side. Beta is supposed to be polish and fixing bugs. Beta is not supposed to be putting in an entire faction that you just threw together.

[Sumdian]

Craig Zinkievich: The Klingon gameplay will unlock, but not deep in the game - it will take several hours to unlock the ability to create a Klingon player.

Yea in 7 hours i can get to lvl 50 in wow that's over half a game and then i will need to start again lol its a joke and a spit in the face to all people wanting to play Klingon's I will NOT play a fed toon for 7+ hours to just unlock a Klingon toon its a joke and a very bad 1 at that.

I was so looking forward to this game so much i can not explain but this is just a realy low blow and if you think us Klingon's are QQing imagine what the QQ would be like if the fed wear being forced to do 7 hours+ of a Klingon tutorial just to be able to play feds

[TheGow]

Yes but this is just like the rest of what he had said. We are going to be put down to nothing more than PvP all the time. No real story arc. We are an afterthought. We are there to give starfleet a PvP aspect. They have spent all this time and almost all of it is starfleet. Now it is almost time for the beta and they have almost nothing for the klingon side. Beta is supposed to be polish and fixing bugs. Beta is not supposed to be putting in an entire faction that you just threw together.

I can understand why people would be upset about that. We have all been going this whole time believing that Fed and Klingon would be on equal ground as far as story telling, missions, and pvp goes. I plan on playing mostly Fed. But even I myself was looking forward to a very rich story line from playing in the Klingon faction. So I agree, if it turns out that Klingon is nothing more than a pvp excuse then I am very disappointed to hear that. Especially since they didn't tell us this from the start and instead just let us wait expecting to eventually hear all about the Klingon story line and missions when their really are none.

But at the same time, my post was all about the tutorial thing. As far as that goes, I really don't see why it's such a big deal. But after giving it some thought I can see how some people are using the fed only tutorial as part of their argument to show that they believe the Klingon's won't have nearly as much content as the Feds.

But when It all comes down to it, Cryptic is more than likely not going to be making any big changes at this point. So I'm not going to make any speculations or assumptions. So I myself, have every intention of just waiting until I get my hands on the game and seeing for myself how they have implemented things. This whole thread has gone on this long just based on one answer to one question. I really don't think that nearly enough information for a lot of the conclusions that some people have come to in this thread. We don't know how the missions will play out for the Klingons, or even how their house vs house pvp will work. All we can do is wait and see, or hope Cryptic releases some Klingon info for us to read about.

[TheGow]

Yea in 7 hours i can get to lvl 50 in wow that's over half a game and then i will need to start again lol its a joke and a spit in the face to all people wanting to play Klingon's I will NOT play a fed toon for 7+ hours to just unlock a Klingon toon its a joke and a very bad 1 at that.

I was so looking forward to this game so much i can not explain but this is just a realy low blow and if you think us Klingon's are QQing imagine what the QQ would be like if the fed wear being forced to do 7 hours+ of a Klingon tutorial just to be able to play feds

See this is exactly what I'm talking about. No where did anyone say it would take 7 hours. None of us know exactly how long it will take. People are allowing themselves to get upset about stuff that they are merely making assumptions about.

[Interdictor]

One idea I had for a single tutorial that could work is this:

You create your Federation or Klingon character, and select the starter ship - you know, standard character creation stuff. Then you start your tutorial.

The tutorial revolves around you playing a character of a nameless minor NPC race. Your "stand-in character" is in it's equivalent of a "space academy" and through it you learn about the various facets of the game, from exploration, to trade, to ground missions, to ship combat and tactics (including cloaks and fighters), etc.

The END of the tutorial would be different for each faction (more endings can be easily added for additional future factions).

For the Feds it could be something like this: Your "tutorial stand-in's" ship comes under attack by raiders (maybe klingon or other race). All of a sudden (assuming you made a Fed characer) you switch to your Fed character in his starfleet ship (maybe with a nice cutscene like something out of the very beginning of a star trek tv episode with music and your vessel slowly panning past the screen). You receive a distress signal from a ship in a nearby system - and you go to save them from the raiders and make first contact with the "tutorial race."

For the Klingons it could be different - something suitably more Klingon - hell you could BE the Raiders. In any case, you have a cutscene with suitably Klingon music and the slowly panning ship - and then your life as a Klingon begins.

As more factions are added, more tutorial endings can be added as well. ALso note that even if new endings ARE added, you don't have to go all the way through the tutorial again to see them - if you skip it the game could place you right at the "opening credits" - like scene.

[Sumdian]

See this is exactly what I'm talking about. No where did anyone say it would take 7 hours. None of us know exactly how long it will take. People are allowing themselves to get upset about stuff that they are merely making assumptions about.

Yes they seed it will take several hours to unlock the ability to create a Klingon im getting upset over the fact that i can not load the game and make a Klingon from the first time i load the game i will need to make a fed toon and play there side of the game and then start again on the Klingon side and it BLOWS

[LordDave]

Yes they seed it will take several hours to unlock the ability to create a Klingon im getting upset over the fact that i can not load the game and make a Klingon from the first time i load the game i will need to make a fed toon and play there side of the game and then start again on the Klingon side and it BLOWS

Agreed. We don't want smelly Klingons messing with our ships. :p

[Ayradyss]

The only way I could really see this working is if they started before the time period the game is set in. Say the tutorial is before the Klingon's depart from the federation. Then the joint tutorial could work well as the further you go in it you just jump forward in time getting closer and closer to the war. Then when it is time for the war they ask you to choose your side.

I am really hoping that this is how they did it but we will see.

Actually, as I read through the topic and pondered how it might work out, I had some very similar thoughts. I don't know it would have to be set 'back in time' any -- the 'Path to . . .' series is progressing along and we've still yet to see the actual rift between the Federation and Klingons open. What if that's the intro to the game? The whole 'tutorial' could focus on the events that led directly to it -- the straw that broke the camel's back and brought about the end of the Accords. You'd be a young Starfleet officer just getting your start, thrust into the middle of a situation with some pretty huge repercussions. Definitely could be dramatic/immersive stuff. Initially, the Klingons and Feds would still be 'the same side,' though likely with very stressed relations. Then things play out, the split occurs, and the Klingon faction 'unlocks' at that point, when the Klingons declare their alliance with the Federation officially over.

Given that the chargen lets you basically make any race you please, regardless of faction, you could theoretically make a Klingon who was finishing his/her training with Starfleet, then fill in with a bit of backstory about how he/she seizes a ship and heads back to fight for the KDF when the Accords break up. (Maybe something like that.) Then make your Klingon character with the same general looks & name and continue his/her story in-game with the Klingon faction. Might be interesting.

FWIW, I too feel that this isn't really good news for the game, and it's definitely stirring some fear in me that things are being rushed too quickly and maybe too many corners are being cut. But if they do what they are doing well enough . . . I guess I'm hoping it could still make an impressive and enjoyable game, which they can then add lots more content to to round it out. It's really a shame that such equity and completeness may have to come after the launch, but hopefully it will happen. My confidence in STO is somewhat shaken, but I still have hope that it will be the game we want it to -- eventually.

[yandards]

Whilst I agree with the devs point that it does mean they can 'focus resources' that also is managment speak for 'we don't have enough resources'.

As a get out clause the posts referencing the path to the collapse of the Klingon/Fed accords is a good idea but you could use the tried and tested Trek plot device of a Holo simulation.

Guess this mean BoPs are Tier 1 as opposed to Tier 0/Miranda then.

[maclilith]

i can understand why the futur klingon players are a little ****ed off.

i wonder how it would work out if it was visa versa. that all players would have to start a klingon player before they can choose to pick starfleet or kdf....

but i think most players here dont think about the possibilities for a klingon player to start with the same tutorial. you get to know your enemy right from the beginning. starting as a klingon its kind of essential to do that when you think of whats the focus of klingon gameplay: pvp.
right from the start, focusing on klingon/klingon fights you have real competitors with the same basics what wouldnt be das case if there where 2 tutorials where you only had to do one.

the first impression is something important for sure. but i guess it wont be a tutorial like "press A to turn left" showing every possible button. i think its that kind of beginning that should electrify you from the very start. in this case i think its a quality thing. if they only can do one of those tutorials right now, then thats how it should be :)

[JacobFlowers]

i can understand why the futur klingon players are a little ****ed off.

i wonder how it would work out if it was visa versa. that all players would have to start a klingon player before they can choose to pick starfleet or kdf....

but i think most players here dont think about the possibilities for a klingon player to start with the same tutorial. you get to know your enemy right from the beginning. starting as a klingon its kind of essential to do that when you think of whats the focus of klingon gameplay: pvp.
right from the start, focusing on klingon/klingon fights you have real competitors with the same basics what wouldnt be das case if there where 2 tutorials where you only had to do one.

the first impression is something important for sure. but i guess it wont be a tutorial like "press A to turn left" showing every possible button. i think its that kind of beginning that should electrify you from the very start. in this case i think its a quality thing. if they only can do one of those tutorials right now, then thats how it should be :)

Im not even wanting to be a Klingon player to begin with, but already the game has been nerfed.

The very words 'due to time constraints' are very disconcerting.

Rush a game out, and see what happens. hmm. :confused:

[Nalah]

I think everyone is just being way too silly over this thing. The game's not even out yet and already people are trying to reach the depressing QQ levels of a games that's been out for four years.

Not really, as they have valid concerns; some people have no desire to play the federation side, and from the looks of things right now the Klingon side is getting the short end of the stick.

So what if you have to share a tutorial, odds are the gameplay between the two factions is identical. Ships will fly/fight the same, group operations will work the same way for either side. The only difference is in organization.

Except that Cryptic has been saying for quite awhile now that the gameplay would be a different experience between the two factions. Do you seriously think a Klingon raider is going to handle the same as a Federation science ship, or use the same tactics? The Klingons should have their own tutorial, one that teaches them how to handle their ships and technology, not the enemy's ships and technology. For example, there should be at least a brief primer on basic cloaking tactics available to the Klingons, while the Federation should have a primer on detecting cloaked ships.

If everyone was the same, say a superhero in CO, then starting them all out the same would make sense. Since they are opposed factions, and are supposed to play differently, then it doesn't make sense to start them all at Starfleet Academy. That would be like taking new characters in City of Villains and just runnning them through the City of Heroes tutorial.

People really need to take a wait and see attitude with this. A lot of guesswork and opinions are being thrown around as fact even though we have no information saying what's true. Chill, peeps, let the QQ flow out of you and just C.H.I.L.L....

Thank you.

The people objecting are going off of what has been stated so far; if they didn't mean to state it that way, then they should have been more clear. Past experience with causing uproars over something worded wrong should have taught them that by now. As for the wait and see attitude? That only goes so far these days; ask the players of AoC, WAR, or other games where the players were told that and then got shafted, and see what they have to say about waiting to see.

[Dext]

Im not even wanting to be a Klingon player to begin with, but already the game has been nerfed.

The very words 'due to time constraints' are very disconcerting.

Rush a game out, and see what happens. hmm. :confused:

on one small part of the game that is not that big a thing in the first place is for the best.

[CaptainQuirk]

I have said in other threads that I have been seeing the same paterns in STO's development that I saw in SWG. Well this proves me right.

They have said that Klingon gameplay is going to be "very different" from Starfleet. Well... How can you present a player who wants to be Klingon with the gameplay tutorial for the Federation and then dump him into Klingon gameplay that is going to be different from what the Federation gameplay tutorial presents?

Not only is it immersion-breaking, but it also is also potentially game-breaking. We're talking about the equivilant of learning the rules for Clue and then finding ourselves sitting down at a game of Monopoly...

This may seem like a little thing to a lot of people, but its a big thing for me.

So far, everything about a Trek MMO that is important to me is being marginalized by Cryptic. I am an MMO player and a Star Trek fan. And I am really not being drawn to this game as either anymore. It's not Cryptic's fault that I am not in the mass audience they are trying to target. But I fear that when they launch, that audience will not be as stellarly impressed as they think they will be.

I still will not be surprised if, just weeks before launch, that they announce that the Klingon faction will not be playable at launch and that the decision was made to allow them to flesh out the Federation with the scientific, exploration and diplomatic aspects. Either that or they will cut Science, Exploration and Diplomacy from both factions and launch with Klingon and Federation space and ground combat only. The latter is most likely since we know that they've got ground and space combat working. Just slap a Klingon skin on it and good to go...

At this point, I will give STO a try a couple of years after it launches, assuming Cryptic puts in the things that need to be there in order for it to be a true Star Trek MMO.

[dinendae]

I can understand why people would be upset about that. We have all been going this whole time believing that Fed and Klingon would be on equal ground as far as story telling, missions, and pvp goes. I plan on playing mostly Fed. But even I myself was looking forward to a very rich story line from playing in the Klingon faction. So I agree, if it turns out that Klingon is nothing more than a pvp excuse then I am very disappointed to hear that. Especially since they didn't tell us this from the start and instead just let us wait expecting to eventually hear all about the Klingon story line and missions when their really are none.

But at the same time, my post was all about the tutorial thing. As far as that goes, I really don't see why it's such a big deal. But after giving it some thought I can see how some people are using the fed only tutorial as part of their argument to show that they believe the Klingon's won't have nearly as much content as the Feds.

But when It all comes down to it, Cryptic is more than likely not going to be making any big changes at this point. So I'm not going to make any speculations or assumptions. So I myself, have every intention of just waiting until I get my hands on the game and seeing for myself how they have implemented things. This whole thread has gone on this long just based on one answer to one question. I really don't think that nearly enough information for a lot of the conclusions that some people have come to in this thread. We don't know how the missions will play out for the Klingons, or even how their house vs house pvp will work. All we can do is wait and see, or hope Cryptic releases some Klingon info for us to read about.

Hey folks,
I just talked with Craig about this. Many of you guys were right - this is tutorial related. In fact, much of the "several hours" Craig mentioned in the article is taken up by the tutorial, which is in fact Federation-specific.

Here's the thing; it's not just the initial tutorial that is preventing the Klingon players from playing Klingons. Their statement says that the Klingons will become unlocked after several hours of gameplay, much of which will be the tutorial; that implies that after you finish the tutorial for the first time, you still need to play the Federation side some more before you can unlock the Klingons.

The wait and see argument doesn't really hold up anymore these days, and especially not with this game's amazingly short development time; the game has been in production for a little over a year, is set to go into beta in the next couple months, and they want to have it released by March if I remember correctly. Also, the Klingon players have been told 'wait and see', and we did. Now we're starting to get the information we have been waiting for, and some of us are not pleased with the direction that has been taken.

Now if we all have the wrong conclusion then Cryptic needs to step up and clarify things as they have in the past when they gave the wrong impression, because right now the Klingons look to be getting shafted on content.

[Tribbler]

The bigger problem with this is not that the tutorials would have to be different, they SHOULD be different! But rather cryptic has decided to settle for mediocrity with the very first freaking experience most players are going to have in the game. You only get ONE chance for a first impression, and what first impression is it going to be? That they can't be bothered to create a new player experience for a faction that makes up half their game. Talk about setting the bar low.

From your point of view.

Everyone knows when you 1st get "any" video game regardless if it is an MMO or not, there will be things in it, that you have no clue about.

A tutorial is necessary and Cryptic's package of this tutorial is not disappointing, crazy, closedminded or anything like that. It is a Tutorial with a Federation skin on it, and they did this so that everyone else that can accept this, can play within the first Quarter of 2010.

I nor anyone else, would want Cryptic to hold off in the release of STO for the purpose of a small group having heartache over it.

Everyone will have the same strength and ability as soon as the Tutorial is over, your character won't change his looks, the only thing different will be the look of your ship and the planet you live on, which will be a new and exciting thing to do after several hours of the tutorial.

Besides, Klingons will be primarily (not only) pvp oriented.

Very few people in any MMO fight each other on a continuous basis starting 7 hours into the game.

Back up a sec. No-one is saying you can't PVP during the tutorial within a few minutes of making your character either.

We just don't know enough to be so critical about it yet.

[Tribbler]

Here's the thing; it's not just the initial tutorial that is preventing the Klingon players from playing Klingons. Their statement says that the Klingons will become unlocked after several hours of gameplay...

Now if we all have the wrong conclusion then Cryptic needs to step up and clarify things as they have in the past when they gave the wrong impression, because right now the Klingons look to be getting shafted on content.

Think about it this way:

The Earth and Federation are not at war during the beginning players Tutorial. Your Klingon character is happily learning on Earth and still in the Federation at the Federation Academy.

At the end of your seven hours (prior) to war, your Klingon character is called to Kronos, and then your Klingon is unlocked.

Would everyone be content with this? I thinks so.

Still, we do not have enough info to be harsh and more wait-n-see is needed sadly :(

[champforce]

I know all this is to late to change anything but I can see a way to make the tutorial not so faction specific at the start...

Imagine if you will...
You install and start the game
Appropriate Trek music swells as we enjoy a ride trough space. Quickly comming upon a battel. A borg cube is being attacked by KDF and FED ships.
Your play starts inside the battered cube dressed head to toe in a (generic)space suit. Following the directions of your team leader (Boffs) you fight your way through the cube. Learning the basic and not so basic skills. You get to switch to melee combat when the Borg adapt to ranged attaks ect. Eventual you finish doing what needs to be done to the cube and it is set to blow.

Here is where you pick factions and either beam aboard a KDF or FED ship. (No need to create your toon yet)
Now you fight the opp. fact. ships that helped destroy the Borg with you. Learning space combat. Once you have cleared the area you arrive at your Factions HQ and go into the CC to make your toon.

[Draconianknight]

I posted this idea in the other thread dealing with the tutorial problem. I am looking for someone that can shoot holes in it. I cant get the idea out of my head, and it honestly looks like the direction Cryptic is headed, prob at Atari's request.

I had an idea, dont laugh until after you have heard it. I honestly think they are going to use this tutorial to wave the magic wand and get the Klingons in the game. I am holding fast to the fact that only the Alpha quad will be available on release. Open hostilites/war will break out between the Federation and the Empire. Klingon faction players will for some reason be in Fed space and after completing the tutorial be in Klingon space. Kind of like being caught behind enemy lines after the official decleration of war. Remember we as of right now have no starting point for Klingon PC's.
This is the quickest, easyest way to pull it off.

And since I checked Atari's stock yesterday, which is 9.60/share and according to a transcript that I read they have lost a ton of money lately. I think there is a big push to get this to market and fix everything later. The devs may not like it, we may not like it, but $$$ makes the world go around.

[Antagonist]

I know all this is to late to change anything but I can see a way to make the tutorial not so faction specific at the start...

Imagine if you will...
You install and start the game
Appropriate Trek music swells as we enjoy a ride trough space. Quickly comming upon a battel. A borg cube is being attacked by KDF and FED ships.
Your play starts inside the battered cube dressed head to toe in a (generic)space suit. Following the directions of your team leader (Boffs) you fight your way through the cube. Learning the basic and not so basic skills. You get to switch to melee combat when the Borg adapt to ranged attaks ect. Eventual you finish doing what needs to be done to the cube and it is set to blow.

Here is where you pick factions and either beam aboard a KDF or FED ship. (No need to create your toon yet)
Now you fight the opp. fact. ships that helped destroy the Borg with you. Learning space combat. Once you have cleared the area you arrive at your Factions HQ and go into the CC to make your toon.

I like that idea; your just a humanoid in a space suit, then you get to pick what you actually look like.

[rogerwroten]

From your point of view.

Everyone knows when you 1st get "any" video game regardless if it is an MMO or not, there will be things in it, that you have no clue about.

A tutorial is necessary and Cryptic's package of this tutorial is not disappointing, crazy, closedminded or anything like that. It is a Tutorial with a Federation skin on it, and they did this so that everyone else that can accept this, can play within the first Quarter of 2010.

I nor anyone else, would want Cryptic to hold off in the release of STO for the purpose of a small group having heartache over it.

Everyone will have the same strength and ability as soon as the Tutorial is over, your character won't change his looks, the only thing different will be the look of your ship and the planet you live on, which will be a new and exciting thing to do after several hours of the tutorial.

Besides, Klingons will be primarily (not only) pvp oriented.

Very few people in any MMO fight each other on a continuous basis starting 7 hours into the game.

Back up a sec. No-one is saying you can't PVP during the tutorial within a few minutes of making your character either.

We just don't know enough to be so critical about it yet.

Not every MMO out there forces you to do the tutorial tho. And where are you getting your info on... "Everyone will have the same strength and ability as soon as the Tutorial is over, your character won't change his looks, the only thing different will be the look of your ship and the planet you live on, which will be a new and exciting thing to do after several hours of the tutorial." From what I have read, the Klingon faction is LOCKED at the start of the game. CZ said you would have to play the game for a few hours to UNLOCK the Klingons. Rekhan further stated that MOST of that would be doing the tutorial. (not all) So where are you getting this info?



Think about it this way:

The Earth and Federation are not at war during the beginning players Tutorial. Your Klingon character is happily learning on Earth and still in the Federation at the Federation Academy.

At the end of your seven days (prior) to war, your Klingon character is called to Kronos, and then your Klingon is unlocked.

Would everyone be content with this? I thinks so.

Still, we do not have enough info to be harsh and more wait-n-see is needed sadly :(

As asked above, where are you getting this info?

I know all this is to late to change anything but I can see a way to make the tutorial not so faction specific at the start...

Imagine if you will...
You install and start the game
Appropriate Trek music swells as we enjoy a ride trough space. Quickly comming upon a battel. A borg cube is being attacked by KDF and FED ships.
Your play starts inside the battered cube dressed head to toe in a (generic)space suit. Following the directions of your team leader (Boffs) you fight your way through the cube. Learning the basic and not so basic skills. You get to switch to melee combat when the Borg adapt to ranged attaks ect. Eventual you finish doing what needs to be done to the cube and it is set to blow.

Here is where you pick factions and either beam aboard a KDF or FED ship. (No need to create your toon yet)
Now you fight the opp. fact. ships that helped destroy the Borg with you. Learning space combat. Once you have cleared the area you arrive at your Factions HQ and go into the CC to make your toon.

And again, where are you getting this info? Just hoping it might be something like this?

[Tribbler]

Not every MMO out there forces you to do the tutorial tho. And where are you getting your info on... "Everyone will have the same strength and ability as soon as the Tutorial is over, your character won't change his looks, the only thing different will be the look of your ship and the planet you live on, which will be a new and exciting thing to do after several hours of the tutorial." From what I have read, the Klingon faction is LOCKED at the start of the game. CZ said you would have to play the game for a few hours to UNLOCK the Klingons. Rekhan further stated that MOST of that would be doing the tutorial. (not all) So where are you getting this info??

By reading several of the responses from the devs about character creation in one of the many interviews.

As asked above, where are you getting this info??

"Think" about it this way, meaning that If you have read all the interviews, they say in accumulation that there will be "Klingons deciding to stay in the Federation, many of the players would want to be a Worf" Reading through it all, at the point war begins in your tutorial, you will make the decision to join the Klingons or stay with the Federation.

And again, where are you getting this info? Just hoping it might be something like this?

He says "IMAGINE" at the beginning of his 2nd sentence

When listening to the devs responses,you have to take everything they say to get a better picture of the overall environment and do some addition.

[rogerwroten]

By reading several of the responses from the devs about character creation in one of the many interviews.



"Think" about it this way, meaning that If you have read all the interviews, they say in accumulation that there will be "Klingons deciding to stay in the Federation, many of the players would want to be a Worf" Reading through it all, at the point war begins in your tutorial, you will make the decision to join the Klingons or stay with the Federation.



He says "IMAGINE" at the beginning of his sentence

When listening to the devs responses,you have to take everything they say to get a better picture of the overall environment and do some addition.

Really? I reread the posts and did not see "imagine". Maybe "look at it this way". CZ stated that you would have to play as a Fed for several hours to Unlock Klingons. Rekhan clarified by stating that MOST of that time would be doing the tutorial. To me that says you will not be able to create a Klingon when you start the game. So I am asking where this other info is coming from.

[Tribbler]

Really? I reread the posts and did not see "imagine". Maybe "look at it this way". CZ stated that you would have to play as a Fed for several hours to Unlock Klingons. Rekhan clarified by stating that MOST of that time would be doing the tutorial. To me that says you will not be able to create a Klingon when you start the game. So I am asking where this other info is coming from.

Holoclone starts their underlying topic with the words "Imagine if you will".

And I reiterate that I believe you can play a Klingon with your character creator setup as a Klingon Character, you just won't be able to play as a Klingon as in Faction.

Also you may want to read this to set your mind at ease, that this could be the way it is set up.http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=28367

No reason to cry "Worf" yet. (Wolf) pun get it?

[Loekii]

Yea in 7 hours i can get to lvl 50 in wow that's over half a game and then i will need to start again lol its a joke and a spit in the face to all people wanting to play Klingon's I will NOT play a fed toon for 7+ hours to just unlock a Klingon toon its a joke and a very bad 1 at that.

I was so looking forward to this game so much i can not explain but this is just a realy low blow and if you think us Klingon's are QQing imagine what the QQ would be like if the fed wear being forced to do 7 hours+ of a Klingon tutorial just to be able to play feds

It better not be 7 hours. :mad:

I will be rather upset if I have to spend more than 2 hours tops - and I am hoping to kill it in under an hour (because I am immediately DELETING the fed mule once I unlock Klingons).

I also will be upset if Klingons only have 3 or 4 Tiers, instead of all 5 that the Feds have.

[Loekii]

Really? I reread the posts and did not see "imagine". Maybe "look at it this way". CZ stated that you would have to play as a Fed for several hours to Unlock Klingons. Rekhan clarified by stating that MOST of that time would be doing the tutorial. To me that says you will not be able to create a Klingon when you start the game. So I am asking where this other info is coming from.

I agree with you McGregor. Unless he can produce specific Dev comments, it didn't happen. In other words, he stating his OPINION as fact, which should be avoided. Opinions are fine, but they need to be clarified as such, and not implied as fact.

[rogerwroten]

Holoclone starts is underlying topic with the words "Imagine if you will".

And I reiterate that I believe you can play a Klingon with your character creator setup as a Klingon Character, you just won't be able to play as a Klingon as in Faction.

Also you may want to read this to set your mind at ease, that this could be the way it is set up.http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=28367

No reason to cry "Worf" yet. (Wolf) pun get it?

Not to be to picky here... But what you believe is quite different from what CZ and Rekhan have stated.

How do you get from "You have to unlock Klingon faction" to "you can create a Klingon faction but not play them at the beginning"?

My take is that you must create a Fed character and play the tutorial and then some more Fed stuff, then you UNLOCK the ability to create a Klingon faction character.

And nice pun. :D

[Tribbler]

Not to be to picky here... But what you believe is quite different from what CZ and Rekhan have stated.

How do you get from "You have to unlock Klingon faction" to "you can create a Klingon faction but not play them at the beginning"?

My take is that you must create a Fed character and play the tutorial and then some more Fed stuff, then you UNLOCK the ability to create a Klingon faction character.

And nice pun. :D

Heh, thanks on the pun, but the Character is different than the Faction. Go to the Character Creator screen for example.

Nothing there shows me strictly a Klingon and a Human.

There are variations of characteristics. If you want your character to look more Klingon than anything else, so be it.

If you want to Look Andorian, and play as a Klingon, so be it. all the way down the line for both sides.

1 Character set-up, play as a fed for the tutorial, at the end, make your choice Federation or Klingon.

[rogerwroten]

Heh, thanks on the pun, but the Character is different than the Faction. Go to the Character Creator screen for example.

Nothing there shows me strictly a Klingon and a Human.

There are variations of characteristics. If you want your character to look more Klingon than anything else, so be it.

If you want to Look Andorian, and play as a Klingon, so be it. all the way down the line for both sides.

1 Character set-up, play as a fed for the tutorial, at the end, make your choice Federation or Klingon.

Honestly, I have not seen the character creation at all...

But from what I understand, you will not be able to create a Klingon faction when you first start the game...

Yes you can create a character that looks like a Klingon, or an Orion, or a Gorn... But it will be a member of the Federation... Not the Klingon Faction.

Once you unlock the Klingon faction, you will have to go through the character creation part all over again to create your Klingon faction character. I have not seem it anywhere where you will be able to transfer you Fed character to the Klingon faction.

Which leads to a lot of unanswered questions...

[Tribbler]

Honestly, I have not seen the character creation at all...

But from what I understand, you will not be able to create a Klingon faction when you first start the game...

Yes you can create a character that looks like a Klingon, or an Orion, or a Gorn... But it will be a member of the Federation... Not the Klingon Faction.

Once you unlock the Klingon faction, you will have to go through the character creation part all over again to create your Klingon faction character. I have not seem it anywhere where you will be able to transfer you Fed character to the Klingon faction.

Which leads to a lot of unanswered questions...

No, I think the method I described was in the SWG format and will be similar (variation) for STO.

The same character will become either Klingon Faction or Federation Faction at the end of the Tutorial.

[rogerwroten]

No, I think the method I described was in the SWG format and will be similar (variation) for STO.

The same character will become either Klingon Faction or Federation Faction at the end of the Tutorial.

Nothing against you. But this all seems to be your opinion. Which may be exactly what it will be like. But I have not seen anything from Cryptic that even remotely leads me to believe this. :(

[Loekii]

No, I think the method I described was in the SWG format and will be similar (variation) for STO.

The same character will become either Klingon Faction or Federation Faction at the end of the Tutorial.

What was shown was an outdated and unfinshed character generator -- used to showcase the variety of the design engine, not how the CG would work, nor the CG UI.

So I would say it is erroneous to look at that video, and claim that is how it currently works, let alone how it will look at launch.

[Mozcol]

I would simply like to know the reason behind not being able to start as a Klingon, maybe it would be a little easier to swallow. I know that there are "time constraints" but that is in reference to the tutorial, so, what happens in that time when a player is not in the tutorial to miraculously transform from a Fed to a Kilngon? Is there a plausible storyline that melds the two? Some further detail would be appreciated.

[Tribbler]

What was shown was an outdated and unfinshed character generator -- used to showcase the variety of the design engine, not how the CG would work, nor the CG UI.

So I would say it is erroneous to look at that video, and claim that is how it currently works, let alone how it will look at launch.

Agreed, and so is all of this discussion then. Seriously, as always with 6 months prior to playing and before release of BETA, no reason for anyone to get their heart rate up.

If others want to wait a year after launch date so that everything will be perfect, I say it is their option to do so, but try not to panic on every sentence a dev makes. To me that is beyond silly.

Voicing concerns on little known facts and inputting 2 cents is one thing, but to purposely create 4 "The sky is falling" topics on the same subject is shall I say a "rolling" scare tactic to insight rioting between the "potential" player and STO?

As for me, playing from the beginning and watching the progression of the game is what I would do.

I should have 4 characters developed by then at Admiral level, each with a different smiling face.

I wish everyone would not take everything to heart about the way it is at launch day and keep remembering updates, patches, and expansion packs.

[Sunborn]

I think a lot of people are making way too many assumptions about the Klingon game play based only on the fact that you have to unlock. They may have a tutorial that is based on Klingon game play and Klingon game play early.

Remember one of the interviews Craig said that they are creating the first hours of this game with the assumption that the player who is playing has never played an MMO, and may have never played a video game. He mentioned that a lot of features will not be available when you start, but they become more available as you progress. He said they are going to teach players how to play this game from scratch with no assumptions that they know how a game is played. So t he tutorial is not a Federation tutorial, its a game tutorial.

Translation. You start out with the ability to move, and thats it, then they add other things as you play so you can get used to playing this game. A number of single player games, certainly very complicated ones, use this sort of mechanic. You slowly unlock features as you play until a number of hours later all the features are unlocked. In other words, very structured game play/tutorial play.

I would not even be surprised if after starting the game up the first time you are guided through how to create a character, use the feature slider, and so on.

When you play Klingons you'll already know all about how the game plays, how to do this or that, so all they need to do is focus on what makes the Klingons different in their structure. SO likely they will have a very short tutorial, or at least a few very guided missions to start.

[Loekii]

I would simply like to know the reason behind not being able to start as a Klingon, maybe it would be a little easier to swallow. I know that there are "time constraints" but that is in reference to the tutorial, so, what happens in that time when a player is not in the tutorial to miraculously transform from a Fed to a Kilngon? Is there a plausible storyline that melds the two? Some further detail would be appreciated.

I think you do not 'transform'.

Rather, your very first toon will be FED - Say 'Fred'. You play the Tutorial and a little of the game, and then you get the notice:

Congratulations, you have Unlocked the Klingon Faction

So you can then continue to play your FED Toon 'Fred', or you can log out and create a 2ND toon - say 'Bill', with the option of making that toon Klingon Faction.

[CaptainQuirk]

I would simply like to know the reason behind not being able to start as a Klingon, maybe it would be a little easier to swallow. I know that there are "time constraints" but that is in reference to the tutorial, so, what happens in that time when a player is not in the tutorial to miraculously transform from a Fed to a Kilngon? Is there a plausible storyline that melds the two? Some further detail would be appreciated.

It's simple. They are not going to take time to do a separate tutorial for the Klingon Empire. that's it. pure and simple. Because the Klingon half of this game has taken the back seat to the development of Starfleet content. Just like non-combat gameplay has taken the back seat to combat. So after a year of development, all we can be 100% sure that the game has is Starfleet space and ground combat...

[Tribbler]

It's simple. They are not going to take time to do a separate tutorial for the Klingon Empire. that's it. pure and simple. Because the Klingon half of this game has taken the back seat to the development of Starfleet content. Just like non-combat gameplay has taken the back seat to combat. So after a year of development, all we can be 100% sure that the game has is Starfleet space and ground combat...

I think it is PVP has taken a backseat to PVE if I understood you correctly (sorry if I am mistaken).

...A Star Trek space and ground combat after 7 hours or so.

and furthermore

99.9% of Star Trek was seen through Starfleets eyes. So this is where most of the content is "known" from.

It is much easier to use what we know to make a design than to guess or make something up. It goes alot quicker as well.

[CaptainQuirk]

99.9% of Star Trek was seen through Starfleets eyes. So this is where most of the content is "known" from.

It is much easier to use what we know to make a design than to guess or make something up. It goes alot quicker as well.

That's a very weak cop-out. In TNG and DS9 we saw plenty of Klingon material. Enough to get an idea of their ship and building designs. As far a Klingon culture, those same two series gave plenty of insight.

Now, had cryptic stated from the beginning that Starfleet was going to be a central focus, then it would be fine. But they have stated from the beginning that the Klingons and Federation are at war, and both factions will be playable, and the implications, unti now, have been that they would be like two sides of the same coin.

So I find this inequality of treatment of the factions to be inexcusable.

Cryptic needs to grow a pair and tell Atari that they need more time in order to do this right the first time. This is an MMO based on one of the most well-known IPs in the WORLD. Profit is guaranteed, but only if the product is solid enough. SOE launched Star Wars Galaxies as a weak product, missing ALL of the elements they used to hype it up. And with all of the elements that have either been dropped from development (or even from consideration for development) or given a lower priority, STO is shaping up to launch as a very weak product.

[Tribbler]

That's a very weak cop-out. In TNG and DS9 we saw plenty of Klingon material. Enough to get an idea of their ship and building designs. As far a Klingon culture, those same two series gave plenty of insight.

Now, had cryptic stated from the beginning that Starfleet was going to be a central focus, then it would be fine. But they have stated from the beginning that the Klingons and Federation are at war, and both factions will be playable, and the implications, unti now, have been that they would be like two sides of the same coin.

So I find this inequality of treatment of the factions to be inexcusable.

Cryptic needs to grow a pair and tell Atari that they need more time in order to do this right the first time. This is an MMO based on one of the most well-known IPs in the WORLD. Profit is guaranteed, but only if the product is solid enough. SOE launched Star Wars Galaxies as a weak product, missing ALL of the elements they used to hype it up. And with all of the elements that have either been dropped from development (or even from consideration for development) or given a lower priority, STO is shaping up to launch as a very weak product.

Its not a weak copout as you politely put it. My input and explanations of this matter is allover this thread and a few other threads. Click on my Tribbler above the avatar and see what I have posted today.

1. Cryptic saved time and resources by doing it this way.

2. The Klingons and Federation are at war (after your tutorial).

3. The majority of all we know about Star Trek is from the Federation view.

4. No-one said it was going to stay this way forever.

5. No one said you would have to make another character after the Tutorial (yet).

6. Cryptic has grown more than a dozen pairs by telling us or giving us insight into the game at all.

7. Cryptic never hyped the game as Klingon Trek or Federation Trek

8. Cryptic has a strong product and if you digest a little more instead of focusing on this 1 topic, you will see that what has been said about the entire game and what's in its future is very rich.

9. It is weak to spend so much effort on this one subject that may be changed from this statement during BETA.

[CaptainQuirk]

Its not a weak copout as you politely put it. My input and explanations of this matter is allover this thread and a few other threads. Click on my Tribbler above the avatar and see what I have posted today.
How much of your input and explanations are speculation on your part? Have you been watching over the developers' shoulders and seen what they are actually doing? No? Okay then.
1. Cryptic saved time and resources by doing it this way.
No doubt...
2. The Klingons and Federation are at war (after your tutorial).
Did they say this, or are you just speculating?
3. The majority of all we know about Star Trek is from the Federation view.
And yet, OTHER Trek games have managed to deliver equal content for THEIR Klingon aspects. Starfleet Command, anyone?
4. No-one said it was going to stay this way forever.
And no-one said it isn't either.
5. No one said you would have to make another character after the Tutorial.
I certainly didn't.
6. Cryptic has grown more than a dozen pairs by telling us or giving us insight into the game at all.
They've revealed far less than other MMOs have this close to launch.
7. Cryptic never hyped the game as Klingon Trek or Federation Trek
No... they hyped it as Klingon AND Federation Trek
8. Cryptic has a strong product and if you digest a little more instead of focusing on this 1 topic, you will see that what has been said about the entire game and what's in its future is very rich.
All I have read is a bunch of vague hints.
9. It is weak to spend so much effort on this one subject that may be changed from this statement during BETA.We can hope it will.

My responses in yellow...

[Tribbler]

My responses in yellow...

Very little of the things I have stated is speculation concernings this. There may be slight variations on the exactness, but no-one can be exact at this point.

The information is all cumulative based on topics, interviews, MMO technology, tried and true gaming setups, Star Trek History, Star Trek games, percentage of PVP vs PVE players, timeframes for development, announcements of release, demographics, sales data, profit & loss statistics, customer loss vs acceptable loss statistics, gaming strategies, IPO conflicts, licensing, financial constraints, forum member desires and wishes, artwork, UI customization, sound effects, and sleep, break, family matters, rate of pay, illness and emergencies.

All this is what Cryptic deals with on are basic things that affect them everyday. Taking all this into consideration and looking at the March 31st (announced deadline for release by Atari) one could surmise that we are all going to eventually get a good game as long as non-paying forum members just use a little imagination and that they WILL get to their Klingon Faction through a little work and about $2 of your 1st months subscription.

[Loekii]

Very little of the things I have stated is speculation concernings this. There may be slight variations on the exactness, but no-one can be exact at this point.

The information is all cumulative based on topics, interviews, MMO technology, tried and true gaming setups, Star Trek History, Star Trek games, percentage of PVP vs PVE players, timeframes for development, announcements of release, demographics, sales data, profit & loss statistics, customer loss vs acceptable loss statistics, gaming strategies, IPO conflicts, licensing, financial constraints, forum member desires and wishes, artwork, UI customization, sound effects, and sleep, break, family matters, rate of pay, illness and emergencies.


In otherwords, its just your OPINION.

Many of us have just as much experience as you, and we disagree with your OPINION.

Again, if you cannot cite specific Dev comments, its just opinion.

[nagash303]

Ok i made up my mind on this.
Once I played a tutorial that had me make my toon and then a lady in a white robe lead me through the optional tutorial. After this I got my toon back and played the game. I can live with something like that, as i plan on starting with fed anyways.

The other game's tutorial wanted me too use the mouse wheel to experience the awesome zoom-function. It waited for me to use that mouse wheel ... My trackball doesnot have any of this wheel ... Tried the keyboard bindings instead ... no response ... I failed at the tutorial !!! This would be my #1 joke for the tutorial :( :sarcasm:

And yet annother game had me complete the whole game before i was able to unlock the other (eviel) side. Basically it meant i was finished anyways.

If it's something like the first option i am all for it.

[CaptainQuirk]

Originally Posted by Tribbler
Very little of the things I have stated is speculation concernings this. There may be slight variations on the exactness, but no-one can be exact at this point.

The information is all cumulative based on topics, interviews, MMO technology, tried and true gaming setups, Star Trek History, Star Trek games, percentage of PVP vs PVE players, timeframes for development, announcements of release, demographics, sales data, profit & loss statistics, customer loss vs acceptable loss statistics, gaming strategies, IPO conflicts, licensing, financial constraints, forum member desires and wishes, artwork, UI customization, sound effects, and sleep, break, family matters, rate of pay, illness and emergencies.
In otherwords, its just your OPINION.

Many of us have just as much experience as you, and we disagree with your OPINION.

Again, if you cannot cite specific Dev comments, its just opinion.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

[Tribbler]

In otherwords, its just your OPINION.

Many of us have just as much experience as you, and we disagree with your OPINION.

Again, if you cannot cite specific Dev comments, its just opinion.

You are referring to this right?
1. Cryptic saved time and resources by doing it this way.

2. The Klingons and Federation are at war (after your tutorial).

3. The majority of all we know about Star Trek is from the Federation view.

4. No-one said it was going to stay this way forever.

5. No one said you would have to make another character after the Tutorial.

6. Cryptic has grown more than a dozen pairs by telling us or giving us insight into the game at all.

7. Cryptic never hyped the game as Klingon Trek or Federation Trek

8. Cryptic has a strong product and if you digest a little more instead of focusing on this 1 topic, you will see that what has been said about the entire game and what's in its future is very rich.

9. It is weak to spend so much effort on this one subject that may be changed from this statement during BETA.

Loekii, go back to the beginning of "everything we know about STO", character set-up and all, including every little snip-it of information that comes into our threads by Awen, Rekhan, STO game announcemet in Las Vegas last year, add the Atari announcement, think about how business works, think about CO and COH and other factional fighting space games, don't add anything to it like having to make another character after the tutorial etc.

It is not work for me to prove myself by citing the multitudes of information, it is up to you to say I told you so, when the game launches so write it down please lest we forget.

These 9 things are not opinion.

[mrjohng]

So I find this inequality of treatment of the factions to be inexcusable.

LOLWUT? Inexcusable? For a game that hasn't even entered closed beta yet? I think you need to take a deep breath and a forum break, buddy.

[Loekii]

It is not work for me to prove myself by citing the multitudes of information, it is up to you to say I told you so, when the game launches so write it down please lest we forget.


Yet when I comment on something as being fact, I am able to quote/cite the devs.

If you cannot cite the Dev comment, then it is just your opinion.

I honestly do not consider you a credible source, both because you inability to back up your 'Facts' with Dev quotes, but also because I have seen you mistate things as 'fact'.

So again, its your opinion, which is fine, but done beat down others' opinions as if your is more accurate.

[CaptainQuirk]

Originally Posted by Tribbler
It is not work for me to prove myself by citing the multitudes of information, it is up to you to say I told you so, when the game launches so write it down please lest we forget.
Yet when I comment on something as being fact, I am able to quote/cite the devs.

If you cannot cite the Dev comment, then it is just your opinion.

I honestly do not consider you a credible source, both because you inability to back up your 'Facts' with Dev quotes, but also because I have seen you mistate things as 'fact'.

So again, its your opinion, which is fine, but done beat down others' opinions as if your is more accurate.

That's right... Because only I can do that.
:D Just Kidding :D

I just have this growing feeling that STO is going to launch in a condition that will feel way too watered down for my taste. And this One Tutorial Fits All approach reinforces that feeling.

[Tribbler]

Yet when I comment on something as being fact, I am able to quote/cite the devs.

If you cannot cite the Dev comment, then it is just your opinion.

I honestly do not consider you a credible source, both because you inability to back up your 'Facts' with Dev quotes, but also because I have seen you mistate things as 'fact'.

So again, its your opinion, which is fine, but done beat down others' opinions as if your is more accurate.

I know you do bud, and I admire you for it. I cannot recite what a dev says to Jack about something involving gameplay but we do know they talk.

I cannot tell recite you that payroll got Rekhan's check or another dev's check wrong one day, and it needed to be corrected, but you know payroll has had these conversations, and its not just an opinion.

I will try to explain the rest of it.

We opted to create a single tutorial due to time constraints. We wanted to make the tutorial engaging and informative and give players the knowledge they need to enter the game world and be viable both in space and on the ground. We think we accomplished this goal. However, the tutorial is also something you'll likely play through once (we have plans on making it skippable), which means focusing extra energy on a second tutorial that teaches you the same thing, only with an entirely new art and level set, would take more time than we'd like to spend on a mission you won't be talking about or playing after your first day in the game. It's just a question of assignation of designers and prioritizing our content so we can focus on the good, really memorable stuff throughout the game, rather than right at the beginning.

From Eurogamer
That being said, there are Klingons who are on the Federation side - you can't really make a Star Trek game these days without allowing people to live out their Worf fantasy

#2 There is war between the 2 factions, and from the statement that Klingons are unlockable They did it this way as to not duplicate things leads us to "they will be in the Federation" and at some point they can unlock Klingon-he did not say unlock Klingon Player, which means the faction choosing ability.

I digress, I read it again and it DOES say Klingon Player, this is a bad choice, I hope he meant Faction. Which means that all people including devs are not infallible, and this may have been a misquote by either the dev or the magazine. Understanding human nature, you will know that they are always full of errors, including conversations typed or spoken :)

From Eurogamer
Craig Zinkievich: The Klingon gameplay will unlock, but not deep in the game - it will take several hours to unlock the ability to create a Klingon player.

Continuing on #3, All the shows about Star Trek are based from the Federation view, with just several episodes that have views from Klingon bridges, homeworlds, stations etc. so this is a valid statement.

#4 MMO's are always changing and because of that very knowledge, we know it will change that will be fact.

#5 Again refer to #2

#6 6 months prior to launch and possibly a month before BETA, we know alot about this game than any other 1st time MMO based on an IPO. Star Wars, LOTRO, etc had info but not in length and very little of this detail we have been getting here. And again, Cryptic has been graceful on giving us information period.

#7 I cannot find reference of Federation or Klingon Trek so until I do, then Cryptic has never stated that their game is based on one or the other until we get official notification that the Klingons are the purpose of this entire game or visa versa I would have to stick with this statement.

#8 Everything that has been said about what they plan to do is rich. Of course it would not be that rich if you were able to play 6 MMO's simultaneously and then look at poor STO off in this corner, then no there will be no comparison (at launch that is).

#9 As often as you have played MMO's or read about them in magazines or in the forums, change is a big part of them. So it is easy to say, that they can change their mind at any time on any topic including this one, ability for your ship to roll, or the use of Federation Carriers. Anything is possible at anytime if they choose to fit it in.

So there was one of the 9 that had a possibly wrong answer, but none were definately wrong due to the ever changing environment of MMO's

Hope this helps you understand a bit more Lo:)ekii

[Antagonist]

LOLWUT? Inexcusable? For a game that hasn't even entered closed beta yet? I think you need to take a deep breath and a forum break, buddy.

oh don't worry; he's always like that. not that there's anything wrong with his opinion, i actually sorta agree, its just he's pessimistic about almost every topic. now, once again, I don't mind this at all, but some of the other forum-dwellers tend to disagree with my apathetic view on this subject... Peregrine Falcon, to name an extreme example; when quirk and falcon are at it, its one of those things you try to watch while not getting involved:D. kudos to both of you, though...I mean, your like yin and yang; Your conflicting ("Conflicting" is a bit of an understatement; its like you guys are the two opposite extremes when it comes to STO) views compliment each other very well, and make for some of the most engaging debates I've seen on a forum in a long time:).

As for the topic of this thread (kinda forgot about that their:D), while I'll be able to live without a Klingon tutorial, it does seem kind of odd that they would do it like this, though i do suppose that they are on a tight schedule, and their solution does make sense...

[rogerwroten]

You are referring to this right?
1. Cryptic saved time and resources by doing it this way.

2. The Klingons and Federation are at war (after your tutorial).

3. The majority of all we know about Star Trek is from the Federation view.

4. No-one said it was going to stay this way forever.

5. No one said you would have to make another character after the Tutorial.

6. Cryptic has grown more than a dozen pairs by telling us or giving us insight into the game at all.

7. Cryptic never hyped the game as Klingon Trek or Federation Trek

8. Cryptic has a strong product and if you digest a little more instead of focusing on this 1 topic, you will see that what has been said about the entire game and what's in its future is very rich.

9. It is weak to spend so much effort on this one subject that may be changed from this statement during BETA.

Loekii, go back to the beginning of "everything we know about STO", character set-up and all, including every little snip-it of information that comes into our threads by Awn, Rekhan, STO game announcemet in Las Vegas last year, add the Atari announcement, think about how business works, think about CO and COH and other factional fighting space games, don't add anything to it like having to make another character after the tutorial etc.

It is not work for me to prove myself by citing the multitudes of information, it is up to you to say I told you so, when the game launches so write it down please lest we forget.

These 9 things are not opinion.

The only thing I want to comment on right now is number 5...

Here is CZs statement on Kilmgons... (And I am taking it as he means the Klingon faction and not skinning a Fed character with Klingon features)

Craig Zinkievich: The Klingon gameplay will unlock, but not deep in the game - it will take several hours to unlock the ability to create a Klingon player.

So my question to you is how do you create a Klingon player with out starting back at the player creation screen?

And even Rekhan stated that "MOST" of the several hour would be the tutorial. But he did not say "ALL" of it would. Again how do you create a Klingon without making another character?

If you cannot explain this with references from Cryptic then it is your opinion and not fact.

[Loekii]

So there was one of the 9 that had a possibly wrong answer, but none were definately wrong due to the ever changing environment of MMO's

Hope this helps you understand a bit mor Lo:)ekii

It is not that the things in 1-9 are necessarily incorrect, but rather your application of that information.

For example, while #3 is factual in itself, it is not as you apply it to the game. You are just proposing your opinion that such is important.

For example, in my opinon, #3 has little bearing with regards to the decision regarding how Klingons are designed in STO. The 'lack' of information is not a limiting factor in developing content -- case in point World of Warcraft, which did not have a 'TV series' full of information to fill their Content. Same with alot of other MMORPGs.

[Loekii]

The only thing I want to comment on right now is number 5...

Here is CZs statement on Kilmgons... (And I am taking it as he means the Klingon faction and not skinning a Fed character with Klingon features)

Craig Zinkievich: The Klingon gameplay will unlock, but not deep in the game - it will take several hours to unlock the ability to create a Klingon player.

So my question to you is how do you create a Klingon player with out starting back at the player creation screen?

And even Rekhan stated that "MOST" of the several hour would be the tutorial. But he did not say "ALL" of it would. Again how do you create a Klingon without making another character?

If you cannot explain this with references from Cryptic then it is your opinion and not fact.

In my opinion, you HAVE to create a New character after you unlock the Klingons with a Fed toon.

So if I buy the game, I will make a junk FED Mule, race to unlock Klingons, then delete the Fed Mule and start playing the game with my KDF toon.

[rogerwroten]

In my opinion, you HAVE to create a New character after you unlock the Klingons with a Fed toon.

So if I buy the game, I will make a junk FED Mule, race to unlock Klingons, then delete the Fed Mule and start playing the game with my KDF toon.

Exactly. If you want to play on the Kilngon Faction you will have to make another character.

[Tribbler]

The only thing I want to comment on right now is number 5...

Here is CZs statement on Kilmgons... (And I am taking it as he means the Klingon faction and not skinning a Fed character with Klingon features)

Craig Zinkievich: The Klingon gameplay will unlock, but not deep in the game - it will take several hours to unlock the ability to create a Klingon player.

So my question to you is how do you create a Klingon player with out starting back at the player creation screen?

And even Rekhan stated that "MOST" of the several hour would be the tutorial. But he did not say "ALL" of it would. Again how do you create a Klingon without making another character?

If you cannot explain this with references from Cryptic then it is your opinion and not fact.

In the Chracter Creator here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw8mu7hmNQk

This is the last source of information on the subject and really until I hear that you will have to do this twice, I am going to have to say that you do it once in the beginning.

[Tribbler]

It is not that the things in 1-9 are necessarily incorrect, but rather your application of that information.

For example, while #3 is factual in itself, it is not as you apply it to the game. You are just proposing your opinion that such is important.

For example, in my opinon, #3 has little bearing with regards to the decision regarding how Klingons are designed in STO. The 'lack' of information is not a limiting factor in developing content -- case in point World of Warcraft, which did not have a 'TV series' full of information to fill their Content. Same with alot of other MMORPGs.

It is as I stated in an earlier post on this same thread that Cryptic can invent the game faster on information which mostly derives from the Federation View that has very little to "make up" as it would with the Klingon side.

Thats why I put number 3 in there. You must have missed it.

[Sunborn]

Just wanted to chime in with a few things. Tribbler, I'm not nessarly respoinding to you, your points just make a good platform from which to present what I'd like to say. Sorry i took out the color, it's too much html/bbc for me to deal with.


2. The Klingons and Federation are at war (after your tutorial).


I believe we heard there is conflict between the KDF and Star Fleet that is somewhat like a cold war. I did not read anywhere that it is all out war. Does anyone have a quote that shows it is in fact all out war? If not, we need to be a little aware that a sort of cold war and all out war are two entirely different things that will lend to entirely different game needs.


8. Cryptic has a strong product and if you digest a little more instead of focusing on this 1 topic, you will see that what has been said about the entire game and what's in its future is very rich.


Even if the product is not that strong the IP is extremely strong. I am fairly confident that Cryptic will make a good game. If they don’t it's simple, they loose the license. I'm sure they do not want to loose the license; it’s almost a guaranteed moneymaker.


9. It is weak to spend so much effort on this one subject that may be changed from this statement during BETA.

Agreed. People seem to completely forget about beta and that there will likely be a number of game play changes that come about from it. This point of view is actually opinion though.

Aside from that people are going to take one aspect and compleatly dive in to it, and even blow it out of proportion, when we have had very little dev interaction or information other then a few generic interviews to keep our minds busy.

I have played many a game with a tutorial that forced me to play as a character I never wanted to play anyway. Is that lazy? Sure. Cryptic is doing what game developers do. Yes it's a little dissipointing, but seriously folks it is nothing new or even unexpected.

[leesinclair]

If theres gonna be only one tutorial why not make it a neutral faction one. That by the end of ,one can choose to go fed or kling ,like being a frieghter cap'n learning to steer ,fight and run about for a wee while. /shrug.

[Tribbler]

Just wanted to chime in with a few things. Tribbler, I'm not nessarly respoinding to you, your points just make a good platform from which to present what I'd like to say. Sorry i took out the color, it's too much html/bbc for me to deal with.

I have played many a game with a tutorial that forced me to play as a character I never wanted to play anyway. Is that lazy? Sure. Cryptic is doing what game developers do. Yes it's a little dissipointing, but seriously folks it is nothing new or even unexpected.

Thanks for the input Solborn, I know everyone here wants more out of the game at launch, but the game will never get finished, it will always change, and forum members and players have alot to do with the process.

I too want a fully developed game at launch and go from there. But It has never happened.

[Tribbler]

If theres gonna be only one tutorial why not make it a neutral faction one. That by the end of ,one can choose to go fed or kling ,like being a frieghter cap'n learning to steer ,fight and run about for a wee while. /shrug.

Best idea's come from some of the smallest posts!

[rogerwroten]

In the Chracter Creator here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw8mu7hmNQk

This is the last source of information on the subject and really until I hear that you will have to do this twice, I am going to have to say that you do it once in the beginning.

OK, so this is your opinion. Not a fact. That is all I am saying. IMO you will indeed have to start from the character creation screen to create a member of the Klingon faction after you have played the game for a few hours and that you cannot create one before you unlock it.

[Loekii]

It is as I stated in an earlier post on this same thread that Cryptic can invent the game faster on information which mostly derives from the Federation View that has very little to "make up" as it would with the Klingon side.

Thats why I put number 3 in there. You must have missed it.

However, Cryptic has not said that is why they have to produce 'less content' for the Klingons.

Again, its your opinion that is 'why', but is not a factual statement from Cryptic. They are not claiming this is a reason, but you are -- which is an expression of your opinion.

#1 for example, is actually what they said. Rekhan said it allows them to save on resources. Had he not said that, then #1 would also be your opinion.

This is why direct citation of the source is important, as it clears up bias and interpretative slants.

[Tribbler]

However, Cryptic has not said that is why they have to produce 'less content' for the Klingons.

Again, its your opinion that is 'why', but is not a factual statement from Cryptic. They are not claiming this is a reason, but you are -- which is an expression of your opinion.

#1 for example, is actually what they said. Rekhan said it allows them to save on resources. Had he not said that, then #1 would also be your opinion.

This is why direct citation of the source is important, as it clears up bias and interpretative slants.

Oh, you mean that since I am in an STO forum that I can only know about STO stuff and cannot print another word unless It 1st started from a devs mouth? hmmm?

Ughh, it is a statement of unequivacle fact that the Star Trek Shows are from the Federation viewpoint because they all start on the bridge of a Federation ship (derrr) and give Federation stardates, and Captains Logs etc.

I think you are mixing the words "opinion" with the word "statement".

Again, number 3 stands on its own merit.

Cryptic got alot of their information from watching the shows and it was mandatory. Look it up.

[mufti09]

Well, after slogging through 17 pages of Klingon Wrath, my two credits worth.

So, since it appears that the Tutorial is an Uber, "train folks that have never played a MMO how to play a MMO" tutorial, and it also appears that it will be skipable once you go through it the first time, here is the point I would like to make.

I have not seen anything that says that the Character Creator is before the Tutorial.

For all we know, you go through the Tutorial as some form of bot, learn to move, play, fight, chat in channels, etc, all without your "Toon", and then once you have finished it you Unlock the Character Creator and off you go to either the Fed's or the Klingon's.

Any time after that you go to create a toon you get a little pop up asking you if you want to go through the Tutorial, click no, and the Faction selector (like CoX) pops up, and then on to the Character Creation.

Personally I plan on making at least one Toon for each side, but then again I am an Altiholic.

[Tribbler]

Well, after slogging through 17 pages of Klingon Wrath, my two credits worth.

So, since it appears that the Tutorial is an Uber, "train folks that have never played a MMO how to play a MMO" tutorial, and it also appears that it will be skipable once you go through it the first time, here is the point I would like to make.

I have not seen anything that says that the Character Creator is before the Tutorial.

For all we know, you go through the Tutorial as some form of bot, learn to move, play, fight, chat in channels, etc, all without your "Toon", and then once you have finished it you Unlock the Character Creator and off you go to either the Fed's or the Klingon's.

Any time after that you go to create a toon you get a little pop up asking you if you want to go through the Tutorial, click no, and the Faction selector (like CoX) pops up, and then on to the Character Creation.

Personally I plan on making at least one Toon for each side, but then again I am an Altiholic.

Well done bd09, that too is a great possibility.

[MadAlaskan]

I would like to start by saying that we won't know much of anything for sure until Beta comes out (IF klingons are even going to be in it *speculation)

The tutorial is actually a small matter when compared to the bigger issue. Klingons are underrated, underrepresented and underappreciated. All we can do is speculate, because speculation is all we have. PR cycle or not, there has been very little communication from Cryptic regarding our concerns. There has been no "we hear you", no "we can't discuss it but rest assured" nothing. All we have, despite the numerous threads regarding this concern, is this:

That is the best quote I've ever seen! :)

regarding the comment "there is no summon money spell".

All we can do is guess that Klingons are treated this way because they don't have enough money? Is that what Awen is saying?

All I want is something to reassure me that Cryptic is even paying attention to our concerns. Out of all the valid, gently put, sincere concerns about Klingon content, we have one post about "no summon money spell". This is hardly reassuring and honestly quite disturbing.

[lordpenquin]

I have a feeling that if they don't include Klingons in launch or treat them like CoV (PvP with no real content) they will soon find out that "there is no summon jobs spell".

If the tutorial takes "several hours" I'm guessing it includes planetary travel and ship to ship combat. I would not be surprised if the battles contained Klingons. This would mean a Klingon player would have to endure not only a federation tutorial but one that involved flying federation ships and fighting Klingon ships.

The mind boggles. That is until we get a real "clear the air" topic instead of one that REALLY muddles the issue and causes even more wild speculation and rumor mongering.

[Sunborn]

Tribbler, again this isn’t for you, you just offer good segue into my own ideas

I know everyone here wants more out of the game at launch, but the game will never get finished, it will always change, and forum members and players have alot to do with the process.
.

If anyone wants an example of a game that can show what he's talking about check out Age Of Decadence by Iron Tower Studios. They were suppose to release a combat demo about 5 months ago, and they still haven’t, and they are even going through beta testing for a combat demo that is meant to show off nothing more then what combat feels like. They tell players everything they plan to implement, even down to the math and sometimes the programming lines, and they are constantly changing things based on the feedback.

No doubt it will be a good game, but keep in mind that giving players all the info and changing things they don’t like means 5 months for a small combat demo. They can’t even release another video because they are changing so many things.

That is the extreme of player involvement in game design, sure, but still something I think can shed light on development and community.


I too want a fully developed game at launch and go from there. But It has never happened.
As do I. And while the following But I don’t think any MMO is ever fully developed. They have to do what they can, and get it out there. If you think about it an MMO is never finished. Look at Ultima Online, that game has been out for a VERY long time and is still being updated still being fine tuned, and it still has bugs and some issues. It’s never finished; never will be.

We should enjoy the content they have when it’d released, and make suggestions for the content we would like to see.

[mufti09]

I have a feeling that if they don't include Klingons in launch or treat them like CoV (PvP with no real content) they will soon find out that "there is no summon jobs spell".

If the tutorial takes "several hours" I'm guessing it includes planetary travel and ship to ship combat. I would not be surprised if the battles contained Klingons. This would mean a Klingon player would have to endure not only a federation tutorial but one that involved flying federation ships and fighting Klingon ships.

The mind boggles. That is until we get a real "clear the air" topic instead of one that REALLY muddles the issue and causes even more wild speculation and rumor mongering.

Again, you are assuming that the Character Creator is before the Tutorial.

Also, I had no problems with CoX's Villain content (other than the being a Henchman), in some ways' it was more polished than the Hero side.

[Sunborn]

I have a feeling that if they don't include Klingons in launch or treat them like CoV (PvP with no real content) they will soon find out that "there is no summon jobs spell".



Not trying to argue, but I have a feeling that if it only had one playable faction, being the feds, so long as they allowed you to play the races you want people would still be here. It might even lead to significantly less negativity, and more excitement.

[Zoberraz]

I agree Solborn. ^_^;

It's mostly a deal of griping about what you can't have, rather than be happy about what do are getting. Then again, people wouldn't gripe so much if they didn't care... so it's a two faceted coin of a problem, really.

[Loekii]

Not trying to argue, but I have a feeling that if it only had one playable faction, being the feds, so long as they allowed you to play the races you want people would still be here. It might even lead to significantly less negativity, and more excitement.

While I think it would put off some people, and upset others, think that only one faction would not 'kill' the game to the point that they would have to close the doors.

Again, I think its about managing expectations and deciding when the game has degraded to a point that its no longer a game for me.

I am hoping that this will not be as limiting as it sounds -- rather its just a Tutorial and a few missions, and then I can enjoy an rich KDF PvE and PvP experience, without feeling like the KDF content is just grinding content and glorified Monster Play.

[Antagonist]

Well, after slogging through 17 pages of Klingon Wrath, my two credits worth.

So, since it appears that the Tutorial is an Uber, "train folks that have never played a MMO how to play a MMO" tutorial, and it also appears that it will be skipable once you go through it the first time, here is the point I would like to make.

I have not seen anything that says that the Character Creator is before the Tutorial.

For all we know, you go through the Tutorial as some form of bot, learn to move, play, fight, chat in channels, etc, all without your "Toon", and then once you have finished it you Unlock the Character Creator and off you go to either the Fed's or the Klingon's.

Any time after that you go to create a toon you get a little pop up asking you if you want to go through the Tutorial, click no, and the Faction selector (like CoX) pops up, and then on to the Character Creation.

Personally I plan on making at least one Toon for each side, but then again I am an Altiholic.

I like this idea...perhaps it could be a way to introduce the story; for example, you play as captain Plot-Point on the star ship soon-dead. the ship comes under attack from the ancient threat, and you, the brave captain Plot-Point, learns the basics of combat and game play by defending the ship for as long as you can, and then getting a distress message on all channels out, sacrificing yourself and the ship so that the message can get sent out. it would then cut to faction select screen.

After you choose your faction, it would cut to a cinematic; for the feds, it would be them receiving the transmission, but the transmission being too garbled to make out, and deciding to send someone to investigate, while for the Klingons, it would be them intercepting the transmission (less garbled, as they got a hold of it earlier) and realizing that one of the mysterious ships was sighted near their territory , but deciding worry about it, being preoccupied with the Romulan campaign or the war with the Feds or something.

You then get to go to the character creation/race select/species-creation screen. after you make your character, you do your first mission; for the feds it would that you were sent to investigate the wreckage, fighting a malfunctioning drone of some sort, and then search the below planet for clues, eventually running into the Ancient threat in person, while for the Klingons, during a routine patrol, you would run into one of the alien ships accidentally, disable it, and board it, confronting the ancient threat head-on.

no matter your faction, Captain Plot-point would rocket the story forward, and both the Empire and Starfleet would find themselves knee-deep in trouble, setting the scene for a Star Trek Story of epic proportions. This would be the best solution, not necessarily this exact scenario, but the basic idea of having the player play a preset, federation-affiliated temporary character, who ends up introducing the tutorial as a sort of prologue, paving the way for the player to push the plot forward with their character's first mission, which would relate to the events of the prologue in a different way depending on the faction

[rogerwroten]

Well, after slogging through 17 pages of Klingon Wrath, my two credits worth.

So, since it appears that the Tutorial is an Uber, "train folks that have never played a MMO how to play a MMO" tutorial, and it also appears that it will be skipable once you go through it the first time, here is the point I would like to make.

I have not seen anything that says that the Character Creator is before the Tutorial.

For all we know, you go through the Tutorial as some form of bot, learn to move, play, fight, chat in channels, etc, all without your "Toon", and then once you have finished it you Unlock the Character Creator and off you go to either the Fed's or the Klingon's.

Any time after that you go to create a toon you get a little pop up asking you if you want to go through the Tutorial, click no, and the Faction selector (like CoX) pops up, and then on to the Character Creation.

Personally I plan on making at least one Toon for each side, but then again I am an Altiholic.

I am not saying that it is before or after the tutorial. But I do have a question for you to answer. If the Character creation is not before the tutorial... Why do you have to unlock the Klingon faction? Again CZ stated that you have to play for several hours to unlock the Klingon faction and Rekhan clarified that by saying that "MOST" of those several hours would be the tutorial. But he did not say "ALL". So this being statements from Cryptic, what would you be doing after the tutorial until you unlock the Klingon faction and before you get to the character creation screen?

[mufti09]

I am not saying that it is before or after the tutorial. But I do have a question for you to answer. If the Character creation is not before the tutorial... Why do you have to unlock the Klingon faction? Again CZ stated that you have to play for several hours to unlock the Klingon faction and Rekhan clarified that by saying that "MOST" of those several hours would be the tutorial. But he did not say "ALL". So this being statements from Cryptic, what would you be doing after the tutorial until you unlock the Klingon faction and before you get to the character creation screen?

An in game movie bridging the time from either the end of Nemesis....or when Spock went back in time at the beginning of Enterprise is one thought.....that could be minutes right there.

Another is simply that since the question was about the Klingon's, the Unlock response was a generic unlock in regards to the Character creator.

Really, at this point all is speculation and I was just looking at the issue from what I see as a possible logical idea.

One problim I see in the Interview in question is that the Eurogamer interviewer Says"

Eurogamer: You mentioned unlock earlier - are the Klingons going to be available from the start?

But no where before that question does CZ say that, so there may be several questions that Eurogamer left out of the article.

So, Again, I think a Tutorial from the Fed Perspective, before character creation with "Generic Hero 123456", maybe a movie of the bridging future history, and then you unlock both the Fed and the Klingon character creation screens.

[davidpreiser]

Sounds like they're a bit understaffed and underequipped to do this in time. Atari is basing their financial statements on an expected release date of this game by the end of March 2010. So if the devs are talking now about not being able to make a Klingon tutorial in time, they pretty much won't be postponing the release date for it. It sucks for the Klingon faithful, but it is what it is. Could this have been anticipated early on and parallel development or some simplification implemented? Maybe.

But I'm sure they're not happy about a good percentage of their paying customers starting out feeling like second-class citizens. Probably the best thing anyone can do now is make a constant, low-level fuss about it in the hopes they'll throw the Klingons a nice bone later on.

[mrjohng]

Sounds like they're a bit understaffed and underequipped to do this in time. Atari is basing their financial statements on an expected release date of this game by the end of March 2010. So if the devs are talking now about not being able to make a Klingon tutorial in time, they pretty much won't be postponing the release date for it. It sucks for the Klingon faithful, but it is what it is. Could this have been anticipated early on and parallel development or some simplification implemented? Maybe.

Its much more likely that they never intended to make a klingon tutorial at all, not that they ran out of time.

But I'm sure they're not happy about a good percentage of their paying customers starting out feeling like second-class citizens. Probably the best thing anyone can do now is make a constant, low-level fuss about it in the hopes they'll throw the Klingons a nice bone later on.

Right, because playing a tutorial that wasn't tailor made for the particular alien you want to play is really a severe hardship. And I'm sure that making a "constant, low-level fuss" is totally going to make the devs see the error of their ways, and immediately make changes to their development plan in order to meet your special and individual desires. Right....

[Musterion]

Its much more likely that they never intended to make a klingon tutorial at all, not that they ran out of time. That's pretty short sighted of them, no?



Right, because playing a tutorial that wasn't tailor made for the particular alien you want to play is really a severe hardship. And I'm sure that making a "constant, low-level fuss" is totally going to make the devs see the error of their ways, and immediately make changes to their development plan in order to meet your special and individual desires. Right....Don't be ridiculous. A simple tutorial for the Klingons in particular, separate from Starfleet's, would have gone a long way to making the KDF feel like its own separate, complete faction, fleshed out and one that can rival Starfleet, as the devs have invested time in the KDF to flesh it out.

They've not, they're just tacking Klingons on as an afterthought to all the cool Federation things they can think up.

[Loekii]

That's pretty short sighted of them, no?


Don't be ridiculous. A simple tutorial for the Klingons in particular, separate from Starfleet's, would have gone a long way to making the KDF feel like its own separate, complete faction, fleshed out and one that can rival Starfleet, as the devs have invested time in the KDF to flesh it out.

They've not, they're just tacking Klingons on as an afterthought to all the cool Federation things they can think up.

The idea of having only one tutorial -- something that most people will not play again after doing it once, and something that will be quickly forgotten -- is not that shocking a notion.

I can certainly see the merits of deciding long ago to only do one tutorial, and use the saved resources elsewhere in the game.

However, the whole 'unlocking' thing seems odd to me, and I would like to get more information on it.

Imo, it would be less intrusive to Klingon players (more neutral) if they had you do a 'Pre-Made' Tutorial, and upon completion, you unlock the Character Generator, at which point you select your Faction, etc.

[Antagonist]

The idea of having only one tutorial -- something that most people will not play again after doing it once, and something that will be quickly forgotten -- is not that shocking a notion.

I can certainly see the merits of deciding long ago to only do one tutorial, and use the saved resources elsewhere in the game.

However, the whole 'unlocking' thing seems odd to me, and I would like to get more information on it.

Imo, it would be less intrusive to Klingon players (more neutral) if they had you do a 'Pre-Made' Tutorial, and upon completion, you unlock the Character Generator, at which point you select your Faction, etc.



precisely what I suggested; and remember, its still entirely Possible that they meant a "premade" tutorial with Captain Plot-Point from a Fed perspective.

[Replica]

[COLOR="Lime"]"The really cool thing is launching the game and then all of a sudden you don't have a team of 50 developers trying to figure out what to do, you have hundreds of thousands of players saying, "This is what we want!" So you definitely have to make sure you're flexible and that you really pay attention to what your audience ends up wanting."

I must be missing something somewhere, because I just don't get the feeling they are listening to well.:(


Draconianknight, you are not a player yet. No one here is. So how can you say that they aren't listening to the players? Or do you mean that they aren't listening to people who have never played the game? If you have some insight into MMOs that you can cite another game that has only had one faction for the tutorial, then please tell us the game and why it didn't work.

[mrjohng]

Its much more likely that they never intended to make a klingon tutorial at all, not that they ran out of time.

That's pretty short sighted of them, no?

No, its an intelligent use of resources. What's short-sighted is whiners who complain loudly about non-issues of games that haven't even made it to beta.

[mrjohng]

precisely what I suggested; and remember, its still entirely Possible that they meant a "premade" tutorial with Captain Plot-Point from a Fed perspective.

Possible, yes. Likely, no.

[lordpenquin]

I'm just waiting for the thread locking to happen here like it is at the champions forums. Don't comment on concerns, just censor it.

[Antagonist]

Possible, yes. Likely, no.

I do admit, that it is not likely; however, I do think that they start you off as fed for a reason, a reason that may possibly involve the games overall story....of course, its also possible that this is not the reason. either way, im pretty apathetic about it: I never decided (still havent) on which side i was going to main anyway:D

[rogerwroten]

An in game movie bridging the time from either the end of Nemesis....or when Spock went back in time at the beginning of Enterprise is one thought.....that could be minutes right there.

Another is simply that since the question was about the Klingon's, the Unlock response was a generic unlock in regards to the Character creator.

Really, at this point all is speculation and I was just looking at the issue from what I see as a possible logical idea.

One problim I see in the Interview in question is that the Eurogamer interviewer Says"



But no where before that question does CZ say that, so there may be several questions that Eurogamer left out of the article.

So, Again, I think a Tutorial from the Fed Perspective, before character creation with "Generic Hero 123456", maybe a movie of the bridging future history, and then you unlock both the Fed and the Klingon character creation screens.

And my point has been that this is all opinion and not fact. Speculation is opinion not fact.

everything you stated in this post is opinion.

[rogerwroten]

The idea of having only one tutorial -- something that most people will not play again after doing it once, and something that will be quickly forgotten -- is not that shocking a notion.

I can certainly see the merits of deciding long ago to only do one tutorial, and use the saved resources elsewhere in the game.

However, the whole 'unlocking' thing seems odd to me, and I would like to get more information on it.

Imo, it would be less intrusive to Klingon players (more neutral) if they had you do a 'Pre-Made' Tutorial, and upon completion, you unlock the Character Generator, at which point you select your Faction, etc.



I have to partially agree with you Loekii. Having one tutorial would seem reasonable if it was/is a generic tutorial and not faction specific.

[cedarbear1969]

Just because there might be a "skip tutorial" button oncewe've completed it once, doesn't mean Cryptic can or should skimp on the tutorial. Starfleet and Klingons should absolutely have separate tutorials, simply for immersion and to show that Cryptic gives a damn about the Klingons as much as they do Starfleet.

If Starfleet and Klingon gameplay is truly different and unique, like they claim, then a separate tutorial for them would be a handy thing. This is a bad decision :(

lets a skippable tutuorial that most players will see once or more actaul game content? I would vote for more game content and less tutoral that i will see once.

[lordpenquin]

Is it too much to hope for a tutorial that has both factions? It could be a 50 / 50 split where it's a "flashback" episode that shows the same story from two different perspectives? You play part of the story as a fed, then the other part as the Klingon? Then at the end it asked which one you are going to be?

[Draconianknight]

Draconianknight, you are not a player yet. No one here is. So how can you say that they aren't listening to the players? Or do you mean that they aren't listening to people who have never played the game? If you have some insight into MMOs that you can cite another game that has only had one faction for the tutorial, then please tell us the game and why it didn't work.

To answer your question, it is a bit of both. Cryptic in my opinon does not seem to be listening to the points being made in the forum community, at least the Klingon side of it.
As far as using a senerio to unlock a playable class, it has been done before, by SOE, and for the most part failed misserably. They did it in EQ1, and SWG, both of which I have played and both of which bombed, although can still be played via station.com. The one decent thing that came out of it was EQ2, in my opinon SOE got it right with that one. Multiple servers, just the right level of multiple instances so groups can hit the bosses at the same time with out camping, PvP could use some work. But I am tired of orcs and elves, I want some scifi. I would really like to see Star Trek come out right at launch. And not be faced with endless patches to fix hastly thrown together stuff for the sake of a $$. I stoopped playing AoC because it sucked, as I understand it, after endless patches they have made it into a fair game.
But I have no intention of checking that out. Hopefully I answered your question. Feel free to check the games I mentioned and check into their history. From what I can tell, Cryptic is heading down the same path..strike that..Atari is probabely pushing Cryptic down that path, sadly.:(

[LordDave]

To answer your question, it is a bit of both. Cryptic in my opinon does not seem to be listening to the points being made in the forum community, at least the Klingon side of it.
As far as using a senerio to unlock a playable class, it has been done before, by SOE, and for the most part failed misserably. They did it in EQ1, and SWG, both of which I have played and both of which bombed, although can still be played via station.com. The one decent thing that came out of it was EQ2, in my opinon SOE got it right with that one. Multiple servers, just the right level of multiple instances so groups can hit the bosses at the same time with out camping, PvP could use some work. But I am tired of orcs and elves, I want some scifi. I would really like to see Star Trek come out right at launch. And not be faced with endless patches to fix hastly thrown together stuff for the sake of a $$. I stoopped playing AoC because it sucked, as I understand it, after endless patches they have made it into a fair game.
But I have no intention of checking that out. Hopefully I answered your question. Feel free to check the games I mentioned and check into their history. From what I can tell, Cryptic is heading down the same path..strike that..Atari is probabely pushing Cryptic down that path, sadly.:(

My only beef with the statement is this..

Cryptic in my opinon does not seem to be listening to the points being made in the forum community, at least the Klingon side of it.
Listening and being able to act on it are two different things. They can hear everything you say, understand your perspective, weep for your desire.
But if they can't actually DO anything about it...

[Loekii]

Listening and being able to act on it are two different things. They can hear everything you say, understand your perspective, weep for your desire.
But if they can't actually DO anything about it...

I tend to agree.

[mrjohng]

Is it too much to hope for a tutorial that has both factions? It could be a 50 / 50 split where it's a "flashback" episode that shows the same story from two different perspectives? You play part of the story as a fed, then the other part as the Klingon? Then at the end it asked which one you are going to be?

Yes, it is too much to hope for that. The devs have already stated that there will be one tutorial, and it will be federation-based. In all liklihood, it has already been coded, so changes at this point are probably not going to happen.

[Kriss]

Yes, it is too much to hope for that. The devs have already stated that there will be one tutorial, and it will be federation-based. In all liklihood, it has already been coded, so changes at this point are probably not going to happen.


Says who? You? Last time I looked at your status, you're a nobody like the rest of us. Sorry to **** in your cheerios.

[dinendae]

Think about it this way:

The Earth and Federation are not at war during the beginning players Tutorial. Your Klingon character is happily learning on Earth and still in the Federation at the Federation Academy.

At the end of your seven days (prior) to war, your Klingon character is called to Kronos, and then your Klingon is unlocked.

Would everyone be content with this? I thinks so.


Think of it this way: The game launches, and you play through the tutorial with the Federation and Klingon Alliance already null and void. You wish to play the Klingons, have no interest in the Federation aspect of the game, and now you need to make up a Federation character and play through what sounds to be a very long tutorial. Ok now you complete the tutorial, which only made sense because you were forced to make a Federation character and run them through Starfleet Academy, but you still need to play through more Federation material to unlock what should have been available from the start. So several hours later you finally make a Klingon character, and then you may very well discover that there really isn't much to do in the Klingon side of things except PvP.

Would the Klingon players be happy with this? No, apparently they are not. We can only go off of what Cryptic has told us, and so far it looks like my scenario is closer to what they have planned right now.

Still, we do not have enough info to be harsh and more wait-n-see is needed sadly :(

The lack of information is not our fault; since the game has been announced, Cryptic has asked the Klingon players to be patient and to wait and see. For over a year now, we have waited and now we see what the plan seems to be for the Klingon faction. Beta will be starting within the next couple of months. A few short months after that STO will launch. How much longer are we supposed to wait? Now if the Klingon faction are going to have a rich PvE environment, then Cryptic needs to say so. While they're at it, they need to also tell us why it is necessary to unlock an entire faction. That's like saying you need to play one faction first (in say WoW) so that you can then be able to play the faction you want to play. When additional races are added are you going to have to play through the Federation tutorial again, or are you going to have to have the STO equivalent of a level 50 character to unlock Romulans, Cardassians, etc.?

[dinendae]

In the Chracter Creator here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw8mu7hmNQk

This is the last source of information on the subject and really until I hear that you will have to do this twice, I am going to have to say that you do it once in the beginning.

You are assuming that is actually the character creator; when that video came out, people asked on the forums if it was. From what I remember of the Devs responses, it was just a showcase of possible characters using some character creation tools. If you notice, there is a lack of anything you would expect to find in a character creator, such as race selection buttons/arrows/etc. to cycle through the premade races, sliders to adjust, etc. You because it is on Youtube and is labeled 'Character Creator Video' does not mean that it is the actual creator.

[dinendae]

Well, after slogging through 17 pages of Klingon Wrath, my two credits worth.

So, since it appears that the Tutorial is an Uber, "train folks that have never played a MMO how to play a MMO" tutorial, and it also appears that it will be skipable once you go through it the first time, here is the point I would like to make.

I have not seen anything that says that the Character Creator is before the Tutorial.

For all we know, you go through the Tutorial as some form of bot, learn to move, play, fight, chat in channels, etc, all without your "Toon", and then once you have finished it you Unlock the Character Creator and off you go to either the Fed's or the Klingon's.

Any time after that you go to create a toon you get a little pop up asking you if you want to go through the Tutorial, click no, and the Faction selector (like CoX) pops up, and then on to the Character Creation.

Personally I plan on making at least one Toon for each side, but then again I am an Altiholic.

The only problem I see with this scenario is that so far only the Klingon side is unlockable, and that according to what they have stated is after several hours of mostly tutorial play, implying you still need to play through more Federation content before Klingons unlock.

[Draconianknight]

Think of it this way: The game launches, and you play through the tutorial with the Federation and Klingon Alliance already null and void. You wish to play the Klingons, have no interest in the Federation aspect of the game, and now you need to make up a Federation character and play through what sounds to be a very long tutorial. Ok now you complete the tutorial, which only made sense because you were forced to make a Federation character and run them through Starfleet Academy, but you still need to play through more Federation material to unlock what should have been available from the start. So several hours later you finally make a Klingon character, and then you may very well discover that there really isn't much to do in the Klingon side of things except PvP.

Would the Klingon players be happy with this? No, apparently they are not. We can only go off of what Cryptic has told us, and so far it looks like my scenario is closer to what they have planned right now.



The lack of information is not our fault; since the game has been announced, Cryptic has asked the Klingon players to be patient and to wait and see. For over a year now, we have waited and now we see what the plan seems to be for the Klingon faction. Beta will be starting within the next couple of months. A few short months after that STO will launch. How much longer are we supposed to wait? Now if the Klingon faction are going to have a rich PvE environment, then Cryptic needs to say so. While they're at it, they need to also tell us why it is necessary to unlock an entire faction. That's like saying you need to play one faction first (in say WoW) so that you can then be able to play the faction you want to play. When additional races are added are you going to have to play through the Federation tutorial again, or are you going to have to have the STO equivalent of a level 50 character to unlock Romulans, Cardassians, etc.?

Interesting question Maltz, although with tthe overall negative reaction that I have seen. Hopefully Cryptic will see the error of their ways. And hopefully those that are waiting to play Romulans and Cardasians will nto have to go through the same mess that we are.

[mrjohng]

Says who? You?

Do you have a problem with reading comprehension. The devs have already stated that there will be one fed-based tutorial that you must play through in order to unlock klingons as a playable race. This is not new information. Please try to keep up.

[mrjohng]

Think of it this way: The game launches, and you play through the tutorial with the Federation and Klingon Alliance already null and void. You wish to play the Klingons, have no interest in the Federation aspect of the game, and now you need to make up a Federation character and play through what sounds to be a very long tutorial. Ok now you complete the tutorial, which only made sense because you were forced to make a Federation character and run them through Starfleet Academy, but you still need to play through more Federation material to unlock what should have been available from the start. So several hours later you finally make a Klingon character, and then you may very well discover that there really isn't much to do in the Klingon side of things except PvP.

Would the Klingon players be happy with this? No, apparently they are not. We can only go off of what Cryptic has told us, and so far it looks like my scenario is closer to what they have planned right now.

Well, the "may very well discover that there really isn't much to do in the Klingon side of things except PvP" is probably wild, paranoid speculation, but the rest seems fairly plausible.

[dinendae]

Well, the "may very well discover that there really isn't much to do in the Klingon side of things except PvP" is probably wild, paranoid speculation, but the rest seems fairly plausible.

Once again it is up to Cryptic to explain some more then, isn't it? This is getting to be a pattern for them now; how many times have they made a comment that caused an uproar at the start of the weekend, only to come back in the following week and say "Oh, no! That's not what we meant at all! Here is what we are really doing..." As for 'wild, paranoid speculation?' That was a fictional scenario based of the information we have been given, used to counter someone else's 'wild, paranoid speculation.'

Sure the game could have tons of PvE content for the Klingons. Then again, it may be severely lacking in that area. All we know at this point is that the Klingons apparently will not have episodic content like the Federation does, and that they are far more PvP oriented in gameplay. They need to start doing these interviews during times of the week when they can go back and clarify their statements, though I guess it does drum up some nice free publicity for them on gaming websites.

[dinendae]

Interesting question Maltz, although with tthe overall negative reaction that I have seen. Hopefully Cryptic will see the error of their ways. And hopefully those that are waiting to play Romulans and Cardasians will nto have to go through the same mess that we are.

They have an opportunity to change it now: If they don't want multiple tutorials then fine, but you shouldn't have to unlock any faction's characters. As others have put forth, make a generic tutorial and then at the end of it send the player to character creation so that they can choose both their race and faction. Allow players to skip it after the first time through at the very least, and make it so that future races that come in can go straight to character creation as well. This works for everyone as you can play the tutorial each time if you wish, skip it after the first time if that's what you want, and Cryptic doesn't have to change things around when new races are added.

[Draconianknight]

They have an opportunity to change it now: If they don't want multiple tutorials then fine, but you shouldn't have to unlock any faction's characters. As others have put forth, make a generic tutorial and then at the end of it send the player to character creation so that they can choose both their race and faction. Allow players to skip it after the first time through at the very least, and make it so that future races that come in can go straight to character creation as well. This works for everyone as you can play the tutorial each time if you wish, skip it after the first time if that's what you want, and Cryptic doesn't have to change things around when new races are added.

Preaching to the choir bro. I hear ya and agree with you.:cool:

[zolfo]

heres a question how hard is it to keep the same tutorial but give it a klingon skin while the whole thing is instanced and when u finish ur teleported or moved to klingon space?

[Sunborn]

I'm not addressing anyone in particular here, or even to a group of people. Just talking...with my keyboard, which I suppose is writing, hm?

Play the first few hours of content as a fed and get it over with. Even if you never planed on touching the fed side, chances are one day you would get bored and figure, 'eh, why not see what the feds are like while I wait for some of my house members to log in so we can kill some Borg.' I suspect almost everyone would, at some point, try the side they never planned on trying. So play the tutorial, get it over with, and let yourself off the hook for breaking your promise because you were forced into it. You were going to try them at some point.

[njdss4]

I'm very happy to hear about this. I won't be making a Klingon character as my main, but I'll definitely want to have one for when I burn out on playing my Federation character. It's nice to know that we won't have to do some long, involved chain quest to unlock the other faction.

Also, I think it was very smart to make just one tutorial and use the rest of the time to polish the rest of the game. Props to that decision.

[Draconianknight]

heres a question how hard is it to keep the same tutorial but give it a klingon skin while the whole thing is instanced and when u finish ur teleported or moved to klingon space?

As far as I know, not very hard at all.

[Sunborn]

heres a question how hard is it to keep the same tutorial but give it a klingon skin while the whole thing is instanced and when u finish ur teleported or moved to klingon space?

I don't know if, when it's programmed, they will be able to 'skin' any particular ship on to something else. I don't know if the physics depend on programming that is tied to the art, or tied to the ship that art is attached to.

I don't know where the tutorial takes place. I don't know what short of 'permissions' are built in for particular assets in certain areas of the game. I don't know how much dialog it has and how that's programmed to function in conjunction with everything else.

I personally am not a game developer. Even if I was I have no idea how their engine works, and what it is capable of, and what's limitations are. Anyone here know how the programming in the engine works specifically and if it's possible to just 'skin' the tutorial?

Even if they did, what sort of bugs might it cause due to some odd programming lines they didn't expect? Also, all the dialog would be fed based. They would be telling a Klingon to take his 'Miranda', which would look like a Bird of Prey to us, to this place or that. The weapons, the skill sets, the combat flow. Can they just skinned too? I don't know, sounds like if they were going to go through all of that they may as well just build another one. Other wise it would feel kinda silly, no?

[Prymevil]

It's lazy, and it's being done to get the game delivered at an earlier date, which I understand from a business viewpoint, but it kills immersion into the game world, and cheapens play for one of the TWO (total) factions in the game at launch. This will weaken the game world as a whole. Culture and lore make a fictional world viable.... This decision substantially undermines the credibility of the game world, and devalues a major portion of the player base.

[dinendae]

I'm not addressing anyone in particular here, or even to a group of people. Just talking...with my keyboard, which I suppose is writing, hm?

Play the first few hours of content as a fed and get it over with. Even if you never planed on touching the fed side, chances are one day you would get bored and figure, 'eh, why not see what the feds are like while I wait for some of my house members to log in so we can kill some Borg.' I suspect almost everyone would, at some point, try the side they never planned on trying. So play the tutorial, get it over with, and let yourself off the hook for breaking your promise because you were forced into it. You were going to try them at some point.

I can't speak for anyone else, but no I wouldn't be playing them eventually; I do not care for the Federation, nor have I ever cared for them. I was always a bigger fan of the Klingons and Romulans. Out of all of the Federation ships, the only two that even remotely held my interest were the Miranda and Defiant classes. You also seem to not realize that we don't get to play Klingons immediately after the tutorial ends; apparently we need to continue on with the Federation for some time. According to what they have said, we'll be playing for several hours before the Klingon faction unlocks. It would be a different story if, immediately after completing the tutorial, you were presented with a choice right then and there as to which faction and race you wished to play. Instead, those of us wishing to only play the Klingons must invest several hours in a faction we do not wish to play.

[dinendae]

I'm very happy to hear about this. I won't be making a Klingon character as my main, but I'll definitely want to have one for when I burn out on playing my Federation character. It's nice to know that we won't have to do some long, involved chain quest to unlock the other faction.

Also, I think it was very smart to make just one tutorial and use the rest of the time to polish the rest of the game. Props to that decision.

Since you are wanting to play Federation, nothing is really changing for you since you were going to be doing the Federation tutorial anyway and your normal playing would unlock the Klingons anyway for you to eventually try. Now try looking at it from the other perspective:

Supposed that they just announced that you must play the Klingon side for several hours, most (but not all) of which will be the Klingon tutorial, before you could unlock the Federation characters?

[Sunborn]

I can't speak for anyone else, but no I wouldn't be playing them eventually;...

In 2, 4, 5,10 years of playing this, never once start a fed character for half an hour of the hundred hours you'll log into the game just to check it out?

It's like you never tried a Jolly Rancher. You have seen them, have you have touched them, but never ate one. Someone gives you a bag with red ones and dark red ones and you say, haveing no idea what they taste like, that you'll NEVER try a dark red one ever in your whole life? You wont even lick it? Wont even take it out of the wrapper and smell it?

I dont buy it.

[dinendae]

In 2, 4, 5,10 years of playing this, never once start a fed character for half an hour of the hundred hours you'll log into the game just to check it out?

It's like you never tried a Jolly Rancher. You have seen them, have you have touched them, but never ate one. Some gives you a bag with red ones and dark red ones and you say, haveing no idea what they taste like, that you'll NEVER try a dark red one ever in your whole life?

I dont buy it.

Nope, zero interest in that faction. Skipped the Federation campaigns in the other Star trek games I played as well. Why is that so hard to understand? I wouldn't play any Ferengi characters either, if they had been a separate faction. Your candy analogy is silly and totally impractical to the discussion; I know what Star Fleet is about, I've watched most of the shows and movies. THAT is how I know that I do not like them.

[Sunborn]

Nope, zero interest in that faction. Skipped the Federation campaigns in the other Star trek games I played as well. Why is that so hard to understand? I wouldn't play any Ferengi characters either, if they had been a separate faction. Your candy analogy is silly and totally impractical to the discussion; I know what Star Fleet is about, I've watched most of the shows and movies. THAT is how I know that I do not like them.

My candy analogy is fine. You have seen the federation, but you never played -this- game, you have no idea how this game will play. No idea what it will be like. Your going to pay 50 bucks for the software, and 15 bucks a month for your subscription, or 300 bucks for a life time subscription. Either way your investment in this game will be huge, and to not ever try an aspect of the game, not to necessarily play it just to TRY it, is so ridiculously close minded I really cannot fathom it.

I hate First Person games. Loath them in fact. Completely destet. But I decided to try Metroid Prime, and you know what, even though it's an FPS I actually enjoyed it. I have never played an FPS since then, and likely wont, but by god I gave it a shot and I was pleasantly surprised.

But hey, it's your money, it's your time, your right to decided to let your close mindedness rob you of something that might potentially be fun. I hope you enjoy the game. Hopefully we can shoot at each other when I play my Fed, and maybe we'll end up helping each other when I play my KDF, though I probably wont play it as much as my Fed.

[spunxtain]

i'll never touch Klingon, I could care less about this issue, though I know there are others that do.

[dinendae]

My candy analogy is fine. You have seen the federation, but you never played -this- game, you have no idea how this game will play. No idea what it will be like. Your going to pay 50 bucks for the software, and 15 bucks a month for your subscription, or 300 bucks for a life time subscription. Either way your investment in this game will be huge, and to not ever try an aspect of the game, not to necessarily play it just to TRY it, is so ridiculously close minded I really cannot fathom it.

I hate First Person games. Loath them in fact. Completely destet. But I decided to try Metroid Prime, and you know what, even though it's an FPS I actually enjoyed it. I have never played an FPS since then, and likely wont, but by god I gave it a shot and I was pleasantly surprised.

But hey, it's your money, it's your time, your right to decided to let your close mindedness rob you of something that might potentially be fun. I hope you enjoy the game. Hopefully we can shoot at each other when I play my Fed, and maybe we'll end up helping each other when I play my KDF, though I probably wont play it as much as my Fed.

Really, what difference is it to you? Why are you so concerned that I get the value of every penny I invest in the game? How do you know I will not be getting my full measure of enjoyment by focusing on the things I like to do, instead of what you think I should do? That's like saying that someone who detests PvP should HAVE to play it, just so that they don't fit into your definition of being closed minded. I know what I like and don't like, not you. I know what appeals to me and what doesn't, not you. Try getting off your high horse and realize that people have individual tastes; if you wish to try every faction and every race, then knock yourself out. I have never found it necessary to try everything in every MMO I have played.

[Hardac]

The bigger problem with this is not that the tutorials would have to be different, they SHOULD be different! But rather cryptic has decided to settle for mediocrity with the very first freaking experience most players are going to have in the game. You only get ONE chance for a first impression, and what first impression is it going to be? That they can't be bothered to create a new player experience for a faction that makes up half their game. Talk about setting the bar low.


Eh. *shrugs*

For me tutorials are just tutorials. A place to learn the basics of gameplay. I am a little saddened my faction won't have it's own tutorial but whatever. If I can skip it that's a-ok.

Tutorials make no impressions unless they're badly done. IMO.

[Sunborn]

Really, what difference is it to you? Why are you so concerned that I get the value of every penny I invest in the game? How do you know I will not be getting my full measure of enjoyment by focusing on the things I like to do, instead of what you think I should do? That's like saying that someone who detests PvP should HAVE to play it, just so that they don't fit into your definition of being closed minded. I know what I like and don't like, not you. I know what appeals to me and what doesn't, not you. Try getting off your high horse and realize that people have individual tastes; if you wish to try every faction and every race, then knock yourself out. I have never found it necessary to try everything in every MMO I have played.

Touche Sir Knight.

[dinendae]

Eh. *shrugs*

For me tutorials are just tutorials. A place to learn the basics of gameplay. I am a little saddened my faction won't have it's own tutorial but whatever. If I can skip it that's a-ok.

Tutorials make no impressions unless they're badly done. IMO.

Generally, yes that's true. However in this case we apparently cannot skip it the first time (at least right now from the sounds of it) and just jump to the faction we wish to play. Those wishing to play Klingons will first have to unlock them by completing the tutorial and then spending an unknown amount of additional time 'levelling up' a Federation character.

[maltzenburgerz]

/me sits quietly there, just holding up a sign with a big "I told you so" Sticker on it...

/em Writes, "Qapla'!" on it with a big red marker and leaves behnid for Selorkiith a huge cask of Bloodwine. :D

[dgriffis]

As far as I know, not very hard at all.

Sometimes I wish I had a big button I could push that would do stuff for me, that's for sure... :)

Having spent the better part of two months making the current Tutorial, I can tell you for a fact it's not that easy. It's all handcrafted content guys, there simply isn't a copy paste function for something like that.

[dinendae]

Sometimes I wish I had a big button I could push that would do stuff for me, that's for sure... :)

Having spent the better part of two months making the current Tutorial, I can tell you for a fact it's not that easy. It's all handcrafted content guys, there simply isn't a copy paste function for something like that.

I figured it was like that (the hand-crafted part, not the big red easy button!). Any chance on getting a rough idea of how long we'll generally have to play the Federation side after the tutorial ends before the Klingons unlock?

[Sunborn]

Sometimes I wish I had a big button I could push that would do stuff for me, that's for sure... :)

Having spent the better part of two months making the current Tutorial, I can tell you for a fact it's not that easy. It's all handcrafted content guys, there simply isn't a copy paste function for something like that.

It's great to hear something about this, thank you very much. I too would be interested to know what the general amount of time it would take to get through it would be. If you cant say, thats fine, thanks anyway.

[Mozcol]

Sometimes I wish I had a big button I could push that would do stuff for me, that's for sure... :)

Having spent the better part of two months making the current Tutorial, I can tell you for a fact it's not that easy. It's all handcrafted content guys, there simply isn't a copy paste function for something like that.

So, what your saying is you/Cryptic are incapable of doing what other successful MMO's have accomplished.....interesting.

[dinendae]

So, what your saying is you/Cryptic are incapable of doing what other successful MMO's have accomplished.....interesting.

No, what he is saying is that he can't just copy and paste the tutorial, with a quick skin change, like a poster asked. Instead he would have to handcraft a new one for the Klingons.

[Koba]

So, what your saying is you/Cryptic are incapable of doing what other successful MMO's have accomplished.....interesting.

Are you a game developer? Which one have you worked on Mozcol? I would be interested to know.

[Mozcol]

No, what he is saying is that he can't just copy and paste the tutorial, with a quick skin change, like a poster asked. Instead he would have to handcraft a new one for the Klingons.

Haha!! Still in the dark eh? Believe what you want but when a Dev comes on to say they are incapable of doing what others have its a sad state of affairs for STO.

[Mozcol]

Are you a game developer? Which one have you worked on Mozcol? I would be interested to know.

What?!? Proof is already in current successful MMO's? :rolleyes:

[Sumdian]

If it only went for 30 minits id have no problem with it but from what ive seen its going to take several hours of play to unlock Klingon's so it can be hand crafted all it wants to be there better be a skip key for people like me who want NOTHING to do with the feds and do not realy need or want a tutorial. Im not new to MMOs so i should be able to skip it if i want to being forced to play something for 7ish hours just to play something alse is not my idea of fun and is a big game braker for me when ive been told since i joined these forums this is a 2 faction game but its realy only 1 i can see a lot of people who do not look at the forums being very upset when they get this game under the assumption you can play Klingons only to find out they need to be unlocked with a good day or 2 of game play

[Koba]

What?!? Proof is already in current successful MMO's? :rolleyes:

Sorry, you just seem to know how to make tutorials by cutting and pasting. Thought it was from your vast experience as a developer.


Furthermore, the Dev did not say he could not do it, he said it was not easy or quick.

[dgriffis]

It's great to hear something about this, thank you very much. I too would be interested to know what the general amount of time it would take to get through it would be. If you cant say, thats fine, thanks anyway.

Honestly It's not something you really need to be worried about at the moment. The time it takes to complete the tutorial is up to the player for the most part. STO has a greater than average learning curve than most MMO's, we are effectively teaching you how to play two completely different games, ground and space. The teaching continues well into the first couple of hours after the "Tutorial" episode as well, There are many things you need to know about how to play the game and be semi-comfortable with at least conceptually before you venture off to create a Klingon.

Where this break happens exactly is not set in stone at the current time, and we will probably alter it a couple times during Beta until it feels right for us and the folks in Beta.

[dinendae]

Haha!! Still in the dark eh? Believe what you want but when a Dev comes on to say they are incapable of doing what others have its a sad state of affairs for STO.

I could see his post quite clearly, along with the post he was replying to. Perhaps you should open your eyes? All he was saying was that tutorials are handcrafted. Does that mean that they can't create a Klingon version? Of course not! All it means (and all he was saying) was that he couldn't just push a button and make a copy of the existing tutorial, only with Klingons; he would have to handcraft a Klingon tutorial.

Personally I would love to see the Klingons get their own tutorial. Barring that, I would like to see a more neutral tutorial. Either way, I would want either option to come with the ability to skip it and get straight to the faction you wished to play. Since I do not think that either scenario is likely, I would like to be able to play in the Klingon faction as soon as I finish the Federation tutorial. Not hours later, not one hour later, but as soon as I finish the tutorial. That I do not think is asking for too much; just move whatever trigger unlocks the Klingon faction from somewhere after the tutorial ends to immediately after the tutorial ends.

While I am thinking about it, I would want the unlocking to be permanent for my account; I would like to be able to delete the Federation character and then not have to worry about replaying the tutorial if I decided to delete and remake my Klingon character.

[Koba]

I could see his post quite clearly, along with the post he was replying to. Perhaps you should open your eyes? All he was saying was that tutorials are handcrafted. Does that mean that they can't create a Klingon version? Of course not! All it means (and all he was saying) was that he couldn't just push a button and make a copy of the existing tutorial, only with Klingons; he would have to handcraft a Klingon tutorial.

Personally I would love to see the Klingons get their own tutorial. Barring that, I would like to see a more neutral tutorial. Either way, I would want either option to come with the ability to skip it and get straight to the faction you wished to play. Since I do not think that either scenario is likely, I would like to be able to play in the Klingon faction as soon as I finish the Federation tutorial. Not hours later, not one hour later, but as soon as I finish the tutorial. That I do not think is asking for too much; just move whatever trigger unlocks the Klingon faction from somewhere after the tutorial ends to immediately after the tutorial ends.

While I am thinking about it, I would want the unlocking to be permanent for my account; I would like to be able to delete the Federation character and then not have to worry about replaying the tutorial if I decided to delete and remake my Klingon character.

Well, whatever ends up at launch, it looks like you will have blame the beta testers for the result. :)

[marscentral]

Honestly It's not something you really need to be worried about at the moment. The time it takes to complete the tutorial is up to the player for the most part. STO has a greater than average learning curve than most MMO's, we are effectively teaching you how to play two completely different games, ground and space. The teaching continues well into the first couple of hours after the "Tutorial" episode as well, There are many things you need to know about how to play the game and be semi-comfortable with at least conceptually before you venture off to create a Klingon.

Where this break happens exactly is not set in stone at the current time, and we will probably alter it a couple times during Beta until it feels right for us and the folks in Beta.

While I am disappointed about the way the Klingon tutorial (or lack thereof) has been handled, it is balanced by my excitement at the idea that gameplay is complex and diverse enough that it takes so long to learn. It suggests to me that neither element has been "dumbed down" and should provide a rich experience both in space and on the ground.

[Wallabees]

I'm not overly fussed about playing a Klingon character but can fully sympathise with the concerns made here.

This really does smack of corner-cutting, there are already numerous complaints on the CO boards about there only being one tutorial area and it looks like Cryptic are making the same decision here too.

Sounds very much like people have predicted; that the main thrust of this game will be Fed but with a Klingon 'side-game' tagged on.

[Blackleg]

For me the problem will be that expierence gained by federation players will stay after game advancement while the Klingon player have to start from scratch.

This will cause at start a real imbalance for players between both sides.

How you want to solve this problem?

[Tribbler]

Honestly It's not something you really need to be worried about at the moment. The time it takes to complete the tutorial is up to the player for the most part. STO has a greater than average learning curve than most MMO's, we are effectively teaching you how to play two completely different games, ground and space. The teaching continues well into the first couple of hours after the "Tutorial" episode as well, There are many things you need to know about how to play the game and be semi-comfortable with at least conceptually before you venture off to create a Klingon.
Where this break happens exactly is not set in stone at the current time, and we will probably alter it a couple times during Beta until it feels right for us and the folks in Beta.

Thanks Gozer!

Many of us know what Cryptic is trying to do, assisting the first time gamer with a tutorial and unfortunately the pro's and chestpounders feel exempt from this process.

Several hours on an MMO in a tutorial is more than some of them can handle, it will be intersting to see them bail on an Epic Quest and head to the forums for support and possible mutiny.

Thank you for trying to clear up in the limited way you could.

My regards to those that are not feeling well. :D

[Wallabees]

There are many things you need to know about how to play the game and be semi-comfortable with at least conceptually before you venture off to create a Klingon.

This sounds reasonable, but it still means Cryptic have decided to use a single tutorial instance for all players.

This is causing great consternation with CO players and I see no reason why the same won't happen in STO. It smacks of corner-cutting; separate learning zones are generally welcomed by the player community.

[SilverComet]

It's not really corner cutting.

We opted to create a single tutorial due to time constraints. We wanted to make the tutorial engaging and informative and give players the knowledge they need to enter the game world and be viable both in space and on the ground. We think we accomplished this goal. However, the tutorial is also something you'll likely play through once (we have plans on making it skippable), which means focusing extra energy on a second tutorial that teaches you the same thing, only with an entirely new art and level set, would take more time than we'd like to spend on a mission you won't be talking about or playing after your first day in the game. It's just a question of assignation of designers and prioritizing our content so we can focus on the good, really memorable stuff throughout the game, rather than right at the beginning.

the explanation there is pretty reasonable, you're going to see it once, why reinvent the wheel for different people when you can give people more content further down the line.

oh and also


While I am thinking about it, I would want the unlocking to be permanent for my account; I would like to be able to delete the Federation character and then not have to worry about replaying the tutorial if I decided to delete and remake my Klingon character.


It is attached to the account not the character, I think it was Gozer who confirmed this on IRC last night, but I can't be sure.

[mrjohng]

For me the problem will be that expierence gained by federation players will stay after game advancement while the Klingon player have to start from scratch.

This will cause at start a real imbalance for players between both sides.

How you want to solve this problem?

1) The problem exists solely in your mind.
2) If its anything like CO, there will be a head start, so maybe you should start to worry about how to deal with people that have played for days before the game even officially launches.

[mrjohng]

This sounds reasonable, but it still means Cryptic have decided to use a single tutorial instance for all players.

This is causing great consternation with CO players and I see no reason why the same won't happen in STO. It smacks of corner-cutting; separate learning zones are generally welcomed by the player community.

LOL! "Great consternation", huh? I play CO frequently. I have never, not even once, heard anyone at all complain about the tutorial in-game. On the CO forums (known for their high content of drama queens, whiners, and trolls) I think I have seen a thread about the tutorial maybe once.

Its a tutorial. Get over it.

[rogerwroten]

Here is a question for anyone who cares to answer...

When did they (Cryptic) decide to make the Klingon faction Unlockable?

Now the reason I ask is this... If it has been this was from, basically, the beginning... Why even think about a tutorial for them? You would already have learned how to play the game from starting out as a Fed and going through that tutorial.

Now if it was not from the beginning, then ... Why the change? Time constraints/money? Some other problem? And if it was from time constraints/money... What other things were changed/cut due to time constraints/money?


And I would like to know why you would make a faction vs faction game and make one faction not playable from the beginning? Are there any other MMOs out there that have done this?

[carnagefiend]

Here is a question for anyone who cares to answer...

When did they (Cryptic) decide to make the Klingon faction Unlockable?

Now the reason I ask is this... If it has been this was from, basically, the beginning... Why even think about a tutorial for them? You would already have learned how to play the game from starting out as a Fed and going through that tutorial.

Now if it was not from the beginning, then ... Why the change? Time constraints/money? Some other problem? And if it was from time constraints/money... What other things were changed/cut due to time constraints/money?


And I would like to know why you would make a faction vs faction game and make one faction not playable from the beginning? Are there any other MMOs out there that have done this?

This game isn't working to be "Federation vs Klingons". They have already announced that they are adding new factions, Romulans in particular have been named specifically.

This isn't World of Warcraft. This is STO. Why make a bunch of tutorials for every race that comes out? It would be a massive waste of funds and resources.

[rogerwroten]

This game isn't working to be "Federation vs Klingons". They have already announced that they are adding new factions, Romulans in particular have been named specifically.

This isn't World of Warcraft. This is STO. Why make a bunch of tutorials for every race that comes out? It would be a massive waste of funds and resources.

Because they said they were planning on making a tutorial for the Klingong, but due to time constraints they decided not to at this time. So I would take it as if they had the time they would have made a Klingon tutorial. But they don't have the time so it got the axe.

And from what Gozer posted... You need to play the game for several hours before creating a Klingon. So what exactly does this mean? Basically... They don't have the time to create a second tutorial. Hence my question what else is being cut/pared down to make the release date?