One faction more PvP oriented a definite mistake

[Hagon]

Well the latest info given is a bit confusing, but one thing is crystal clear. At least to me. This whole thing about making the Klingon experience more PvP oriented than the Federation experience is just plain silly. Both sides should be exactly the same in that regard. Both with an equal opportunity to PvP, or not, depending on what the player feels like doing on any given day.

All this does is ensure it's a game with a bunch of people dissatisfied that there's not enough players of the other faction to PvP against.

[JesseH21]

Klingon society hasent really been "united" they have always had infighting and stuff especially if a lot of them didnt like the current leadership.

[Tribbler]

That has always been a concern of mine that it will be too one sided. In one of the interviews, it was said that the numbers playing both sides are going to be close.

It was in a recent interview Hagon, just don't know which one. I think with Craig.

The interviewee had little concern about it though.

[Varrangian]

Well the latest info given is a bit confusing, but one thing is crystal clear. At least to me. This whole thing about making the Klingon experience more PvP oriented than the Federation experience is just plain silly. Both sides should be exactly the same in that regard. Both with an equal opportunity to PvP, or not, depending on what the player feels like doing on any given day.

All this does is ensure it's a game with a bunch of people dissatisfied that there's not enough players of the other faction to PvP against.

I've been warning about this for a few days now in my "Episodic content - Not just for the Federation (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=28028)" thread. This is the first major issue I'm truly disappointed in Cryptic over.

[TruthSeer]

I really never thought I'd see a post asking for both sides to be exactly the same.

Also I disagree. I really like the idea of Klingon infighting and House wars, it seems like it could be fun and also fits into the IP. Even with this system both sides have the same opportunity to PvP. If a Federation player decides he wants to PvP he can either go to a PvP zone (presumably the Neutral Zone) or he can find someone to duel (which has been mentioned, though not confirmed, in regards to war games).

The Klingons just have different options, they can either go to a PvP zone or engage in the House Wars system however that may be set up. We've know for awhile that they are trying to give both sides different, if not unique, experiences from one another. And I don't see this as a bad thing.

[Hagon]

Klingon society hasent really been "united" they have always had infighting and stuff especially if a lot of them didnt like the current leadership.With all due respect, that really has little to nothing to do with what I'm saying.

That has always been a concern of mine that it will be too one sided. In one of the interviews, it was said that the numbers playing both sides are going to be close.

It was in a recent interview Hagon, just don't know which one. I think with Craig.

The interviewee had little concern about it though.They certainly do seem unconcerned about a lot of things they should be concerned about. I know I have absolutely no interest in Klingon faction in-fighting. I'm about competing against the opposing faction. Not tearing apart my own.

[Varrangian]

I really never thought I'd see a post asking for both sides to be exactly the same.

Also I disagree. I really like the idea of Klingon infighting and House wars, it seems like it could be fun and also fits into the IP. Even with this system both sides have the same opportunity to PvP. If a Federation player decides he wants to PvP he can either go to a PvP zone (presumably the Neutral Zone) or he can find someone to duel (which has been mentioned, though not confirmed, in regards to war games).

The Klingons just have different options, they can either go to a PvP zone or engage in the House Wars system however that may be set up. We've know for awhile that they are trying to give both sides different, if not unique, experiences from one another. And I don't see this as a bad thing.

It appears Klingons have no options. They can only PvP. There has been zero indications in the last two interviews that Klingons will be portrayed in STO as anything more than knuckle dragging orcs in space (to steal Peregine's term).

[Hagon]

I really never thought I'd see a post asking for both sides to be exactly the same.

Well you still haven't, because that's not what I said. I said they should have the exact same opportunities for PvP, or not to PvP.

[Acyl]

That has always been a concern of mine that it will be too one sided. In one of the interviews, it was said that the numbers playing both sides are going to be close.

I honestly dunno about that.

If you look at all the emphasis in the publicity, on the boards... in unofficial polls taken by websites and even around here...

It seems that a lot more folks are planning to play Federation. True, there's a lot of people planning on playing both factions. But most of those players will still be Starfleet first, Klingon second.

There's fewer die-hard Klingon loyalists.

But if the Klingon side is more PvP focused, a disparity in numbers becomes less of an issue. Doesn't matter if Starfleet technically outnumbers 'em.

My concern though... is for Trek fans who like the Klingons, but don't necessarily want to engage in PvP gameplay. We've been told the Klingon experience will involve not just PvP with Starfleet, but PvP between Klingon houses.

I can understand why the Federation 'campaign' would have more PvE non-combat episodes, and why there'd be more fighting among player characters on the Klingon side. That makes perfect sense. I mean, it's tree-hugging Starfleet and TODAY IS A GOOD DAY TO DIE Klingons.

I hope the Klingons have more to do than just PvP, though. I don't mind if the Klingon game is PvP-heavy, but I want more than just that.

[TruthSeer]

I've been warning about this for a few days now in my "Episodic content - Not just for the Federation (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=28028)" thread. This is the first major issue I'm truly disappointed in Cryptic over.

I'll admit I haven't read that thread yet but I have no idea where you are getting the assumption that Klingons won't have episodic content? Episodic content is pretty much the basis of the game's PvE material. Just because they say that the Klingon side will be more PvP orientated that doesn't mean they are going to just throw away PvE.

If both sides can have the same exact content and Cryptic throws in the House Wars system Klingon side. The Klingon side has now become more PvP orientated than the Federation side.

[Acyl]

I said they should have the exact same opportunities for PvP, or not to PvP.

Bolded for emphasis. I agree completely.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

Yes, this is definitealy a mistake. A common misconception is that "combat" and "PvP" are the same thing; their not. You can do just as much fighting through PvE as you can through PvP. Just because the Klingons are a combat-oriented culture does not mean that the people who play them want to PvP. Granted, I'm sure there will be plenty that do. However, that does not mean those who dont want to PvP should be forced to.

[Sivar]

Well the latest info given is a bit confusing, but one thing is crystal clear. At least to me. This whole thing about making the Klingon experience more PvP oriented than the Federation experience is just plain silly. Both sides should be exactly the same in that regard. Both with an equal opportunity to PvP, or not, depending on what the player feels like doing on any given day.

All this does is ensure it's a game with a bunch of people dissatisfied that there's not enough players of the other faction to PvP against.

They haven't said that the Klingons will be PvP oriented, they have said that they will be more combat oriented than the Federation for RP accuracy, but that doesn't translate to PvP orientation.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

They haven't said that the Klingons will be PvP oriented, they have said that they will be more combat oriented than the Federation for RP accuracy, but that doesn't translate to PvP orientation.

Craig Zinkievich: "No, we'll be offering full-on character advancement: you will create a Klingon player, you will have his ship, he will level up. The content that they will be experiencing is a lot more focused on PvP - fighting the Federation, fighting House versus House within the Klingon empire. So it is a full-on character with advancement, with items, with bridge officers as well. So it's a lot more than the Monster Play."

[Acyl]

They haven't said that the Klingons will be PvP oriented, they have said that they will be more combat oriented than the Federation for RP accuracy, but that doesn't translate to PvP orientation.

From the same source as TheGrandNagus, the Eurogamer interview with Zinc (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/star-trek-online-interview_9?page=1) that was just posted...he also said this, to an earlier question:

Eurogamer: I see! And forgive my ignorance, but can I be a Klingon?

Craig Zinkievich: Yes! We plan on shipping with the ability to play as Federation and play on the Klingon side. The Klingon gameplay is going to be drastically different to the Federation gameplay. It's going to be a lot more focused on PvP; their advancement is a little bit different - it is not a full-on story-driven game like the Federation.

Repeated for emphasis: "It's going to be a lot more focused on PvP; their advancement is a little bit different - it is not a full-on story-driven game like the Federation."

[TruthSeer]

Even though they are more PvP orientated I still don't see anything that would suggest they won't have the same amount of PvE options.

[Acyl]

Even though they are more PvP orientated I still don't see anything that would suggest they won't have the same amount of PvE options.

Zinc said, his exact words:- "it is not a full-on story-driven game like the Federation."

I'm not too worried, but I can understand why folks are concerned.

Personally, I think it's okay if the Klingons have less PvE content...so long as they have enough.

[Greenomen]

Well the latest info given is a bit confusing, but one thing is crystal clear. At least to me. This whole thing about making the Klingon experience more PvP oriented than the Federation experience is just plain silly. Both sides should be exactly the same in that regard. Both with an equal opportunity to PvP, or not, depending on what the player feels like doing on any given day.

All this does is ensure it's a game with a bunch of people dissatisfied that there's not enough players of the other faction to PvP against.

I thought the whole idea ( at least a little of it :D ) of STO was to allow fans play inside the ST universe. With that said, the Klingons fight. That what they do. That’s pretty much all they have done. I don’t know of any episodes where Klingons celebrate some achievement in exploration, science, or engineering. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

So canon suggest, IMO if you want to do exploration, science, or engineering you should be playing the Federation, if you want to flight join the Klingons. It would be great to be able to explore in a Bird of Prey, but if not that’s ok too.

Lastly, it is nice to see Cryptic doing something different. I’m so tired of MMOs thinking that everyone got to be the same, do the same stuff, balance sucks. Let the strong rule and meek cower beneath me. :D

[Sivar]

Craig Zinkievich: "No, we'll be offering full-on character advancement: you will create a Klingon player, you will have his ship, he will level up. The content that they will be experiencing is a lot more focused on PvP - fighting the Federation, fighting House versus House within the Klingon empire. So it is a full-on character with advancement, with items, with bridge officers as well. So it's a lot more than the Monster Play."

Yep literally just read that article, changes things a bit...

[Acyl]

So canon suggest, IMO if you want to do exploration, science, or engineering you should be playing the Federation, if you want to flight join the Klingons. It would be great to be able to explore in a Bird of Prey, but if not that’s ok too.

Lastly, it is nice to see Cryptic doing something different. I’m so tired of MMOs thinking that everyone got to be the same, do the same stuff, balance sucks. Let the strong rule and meek cower beneath me. :D

Oh, I like the idea that the Klingon 'campaign' is different from the Federation. But I want to do exploration as a Klingon.

I want to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations...

AND CONQUER THEM!

Q'APLA!

[Greenomen]

Oh, I like the idea that the Klingon 'campaign' is different from the Federation. But I want to do exploration as a Klingon.

I want to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations...

AND CONQUER THEM!

Q'APLA!

LOL so do I. :D I was hoping to be able discover and conquer, to enslave races and sell them off, but hey I will take what I can get. I just want to play. :)

[JesseH21]

Klingons: "We come in Peace...... Shoot to kill!!!!!"

[indigowhale345]

Oh, I like the idea that the Klingon 'campaign' is different from the Federation. But I want to do exploration as a Klingon.

I want to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations...

AND CONQUER THEM!

Q'APLA!

This really sums it up precisely. Klingons should not be focused on PVP, but on combat. The Federation may trade tacos to make friends with a new civilization. Klingons would blast them, steal their tacos, and enslave the survivors.

A Klingon player should be able to advance through PVP or PVE or both. I don't agree the factions should be mirror images of each other, but PVE should be heavily supported on the Klingon side as well. And to be fair, it may already be the case, but the interview seemed to indicate the opposite.

[blujester]

Honestly...the idea of Klingon Carebears frightens me to death.
Besides I'm sure there will be alot of PVE content on the K side, quelling a Gorn uprising or slapping aroun some upity Nausicans. After all, the empire can't let it's subjects forget who runs the show around here. But for a Klingon Warrior to spend hours cataloging anomalys is tantamount to asking him to kill him self. The dishonor would be great.


Bj

[jamestpicard55]

Honestly...the idea of Klingon Carebears frightens me to death. j

that word is childish, to say the least. and to be completly honest, says much more about the person using it than whoever their talking about.

[blujester]

that word is childish, to say the least. and to be completly honest, says much more about the person using it than whoever their talking about.

"If" I were calling someone a Care Bear that would indeed be childish and insulting. But as I used the common term as a modifier in a statement not directed at any one but illustrating a concept I find ludicrous your statement is without merit. Your reaction says more about you than my statement says about me.

Godd day sir.



Bj

[Greenomen]

Honestly...the idea of Klingon Carebears frightens me to death.
Besides I'm sure there will be alot of PVE content on the K side, quelling a Gorn uprising or slapping aroun some upity Nausicans. After all, the empire can't let it's subjects forget who runs the show around here. But for a Klingon Warrior to spend hours cataloging anomalys is tantamount to asking him to kill him self. The dishonor would be great.


Bj

Agree. I really hated what they did to the Borg. Would hate to see them tame the Klingons too.

[jamestpicard55]

"If" I were calling someone a Care Bear that would indeed be childish and insulting. But as I used the common term as a modifier in a statement not directed at any one but illustrating a concept I find ludicrous your statement is without merit. Your reaction says more about you than my statement says about me.

Godd day sir.



Bj

it makes no difference whether your insulting someone directly or insulting some "hypothetical group" in a sad attempt to justify your insult. insulting others just because they have a different playstyle than you only shows how childish you are.

[Pyrceval]

it makes no difference whether your insulting someone directly or insulting some "hypothetical group"(in a failed attempt to justify your insult). insulting others just because they have a different playstyle than you only shows how childish you are.

I must say I was expecting some flames appearing in this thread, but not of this sort...

.../replicates some popcorn...

[Greenomen]

Honestly...the idea of Klingon Carebears frightens me to death. j

that word is childish, to say the least. and to be completly honest, says much more about the person using it than whoever their talking about.

FYI: Carebear:
1. Term applied by PvP (player vs. player) participants in an online role-playing game to those players are disinterested in PvP conflict. Usually derogatory.

2. A player who detests Player versus Player (PvP) gaming and whines about how it ruins their gaming enjoyment.

3. A player who is afraid of getting ganked by other gaming players.

4. A player who ruined the PvP MMORPG industry by complaining so much that PvP MMORPG development is rare.

there are many more, but this should give you a general idea of Carebear as it refers to in MMO content.

[Kriss]

it makes no difference whether your insulting someone directly or insulting some "hypothetical group" in a sad attempt to justify your insult. insulting others just because they have a different playstyle than you only shows how childish you are.

Why don't you go back to WOW and cry about it a little more and hide your head in your pillow.

The world is a rough place. If you don't like what other people say, then get out of the conversation. Don't try to subject others to your perverse sense of what [b]YOU[/]b] might consider insults. You speak for NO ONE but yourself.

Don't like it, don't read it. Thats your right! Just like turning the channel on the TV if there is something you don't like. Don't you try to ban it for everyone just because of your self-lacking.

[StoRmf5]

This is where holodecks should come into play. Allowing federation to use them to practice pvp against each other and have different types of scenerios. Will be like pvp mini maps. Federation players would que up and will be put into blue team or red team. the klingon faction will have thier own inhouse pvp but for real. But the main pvp will still be in the pvp zones.

[evan.is.weyoun]

There will probably be more advancement through PvP options for Klingons, which sounds cool to me. I always enjoyed the PvE missions in WoW that also had PvP elements. I've always been really terrible at PvP in MMOs, though, so hopefully I can figure this out.

Although the several comments from Craig about the Klingon side not having as many PvE options has me worried. I'm a very PvE solo kind of guy. I like interacting with a guild and doing PvP usually when I max my character out in PvE, but I don't want to look at the Federation and say "man, I wish I could do cool missions like they can..." It may cause me to end up making an alt. I want to play that story-driven stuff, but I want to be with my BoK brothers because there is no better fleet. Period.

[blujester]

it makes no difference whether your insulting someone directly or insulting some "hypothetical group" in a sad attempt to justify your insult. insulting others just because they have a different playstyle than you only shows how childish you are.

And what is my playstyle? You seem to know somehow? Or do you?

Care bears are a known Phenomenon in MMO games not some "Hypothetical Group" They are real regardless what you want to call them.

And please tell me sir, who did I insult? You? The others in this thread? If you feel my post was out of line or insulting it is your duty to report me right away for violations of the Forum guidelines. Certainly calling some one childish is an insult to ones character. Oh wait, I didn't call anyone childish? Hmm who was that?


Good day sir.


Bj

[jamestpicard55]

FYI: Carebear:
1. Term applied by PvP (player vs. player) participants in an online role-playing game to those players are disinterested in PvP conflict. Usually derogatory.

2. A player who detests Player versus Player (PvP) gaming and whines about how it ruins their gaming enjoyment.

3. A player who is afraid of getting ganked by other gaming players.

4. A player who ruined the PvP MMORPG industry by complaining so much that PvP MMORPG development is rare.

there are many more, but this should give you a general idea of Carebear as it refers to in MMO content.

i understand exactly what it means. in fact, i enjoy pvp. however, some of the people who like to pvp make the rest look bad by throwing around their childins insults at those that dont. its both sad and pathetic.

[jamestpicard55]

Don't like it, don't read it. Thats your right! Just like turning the channel on the TV if there is something you don't like.

going by your logic, if you dont like my posts, then dont read them. or are you one of those people who likes to talk the talk but cant walk the walk?

[Hagon]

Could the bickering just stop so as not to give an excuse for the thread to be locked as soon as a mod signs on?

[jamestpicard55]

Care bears are a known Phenomenon in MMO games not some "Hypothetical Group" They are real regardless what you want to call them.

actualy, people who dont like to PvP are a known group, though theirs nothing "phenomenal" about them anymore than there is about those that doe. however, comming up with some childing term and using it in a derogatory way against people who dont like something you do only proves your own immaturity.

[slingbladez]

My main concern is this will scare away people who are interested in both PvE and PvP if they focus too much on PvP for the Klingons.

[blujester]

actualy, people who dont like to PvP are a known group, though theirs nothing "phenomenal" about them anymore than there is about those that doe. however, comming up with some childing term and using it in a derogatory way against people who dont like something you do only proves your own immaturity.

No more cookies for you. Report me or move on.


Bj

[Kriss]

going by your logic, if you dont like my posts, then dont read them. or are you one of those people who likes to talk the talk but cant walk the walk?


Oh, I don't mind reading them at all. I'm not the one complaining about insults and the like, am I? Didn't think so...

You just make yourself look more and more the ....fool.

[jamestpicard55]

No more cookies for you. Report me or move on.


Bj

actualy, i'll just continue to reply to whatever posts i want ;)

[piponolo]

I think people might be overreacting a bit. He said that they would be more PvP oriented. He didn't say that would be the only thing.

Also, if you made both sides exactly the same, then the KDF would just be the Federation with different ships. There would be the illusion of a different approach, but in the end the game would end up being much the same.

I cast my vote for differences between the two factions because there are fundamental differences between them, and this drives gameplay if nothing else!

[jamestpicard55]

Oh, I don't mind reading them at all. I'm not the one complaining about insults and the like, am I? Didn't think so...

you told me to "go back to WOW"(which I have never played), meaning you obviousy dont like what I have to say. however, your logic is "if you dont like it, dont read it", so if you dont like my posts, dont read them ;)

[slingbladez]

The last thing they need are Fed players joining and wondering why they got jipped on PvP content, and Klingon players wondering why they got jipped on PvE content

[Kriss]

you told me to "go back to WOW"(which I have never played), meaning you obviousy dont like what I have to say. however, your logic is "if you dont like it, dont read it", so if you dont like my posts, dont read them ;)


Are you really that def ,dumb and blind? my reply you just quoted rebukes everything you just said. lol. wow...you REALLY are that dumb.

Carry on then.....the ship of fools is all yours :)

[jamestpicard55]

Are you really that def ,dumb and blind? my reply you just quoted rebukes everything you just said. lol. wow...you REALLY are that dumb.

Carry on then.....the ship of fools is all yours :)

oh no, someones insultng me on the internet! how big and bad you look! :rolleyes:

[Kriss]

Quote:
14. Respect is the name of the game. You must respect your fellow members and refrain from inflammatory comments as well as flaming, taunting, and general disrespect. Do not simply put down the opinion or advice given by others. If you don't agree with it, say why - respectfully. Don't just tell them they're wrong. Do not make uninvited remarks about typos, duplicate posts, posting styles, etc.
# Creation of undue discontent on the forums.
# Creation of disturbances in forum threads, such as picking fights, making off topic posts that derail the thread, insulting other posters, etc.
# Posting non-constructive comments.
Guys please just stop making off topic responses where you bicker between each other *i will edit this whole part out in a few minutes and this isn't the place to discuss rules, so please don't mass quote this and try to discuss rules*

The last thing they need are Fed players joining and wondering why they got jipped on PvP content, and Klingon players wondering why they got jipped on PvE content

If you didn';t want it discussed, you shouldn't have brought it us and said anything about it, now should ya?

As for insults.....that word is as different as every person on this planet. If everything that everyone considered an insult was to be banned from these forums, there would be no forums to post in.

I could easily play the system and say something is insulting to me when it really wasn't. Who would know?
I could get anyone banned I wanted and that would be that. I'm pretty sure it happens even now.

Thats why we here in America have the freedom of choice. Choice of what we read, watch, listen to, participate in..the list goes on. If you don't like something, you have the freedom to leave and participate in something else. Its a pretty darn simple thing.

Some folks should try it and take it to heart. No where in the US constitution does it say you have the right to NOT be insulted. Sorry.

[jamestpicard55]

Quote:
14. Respect is the name of the game.

To quote you:

"Are you really that def ,dumb and blind? my reply you just quoted rebukes everything you just said. lol. wow...you REALLY are that dumb."

Quoting the forum rules to me right after breaking them yourself means you are a hypocrite.

[slingbladez]

I'm interested in PvE alot and i'm hoping to do a good amount of PvP so i'm wondering how the PvE content on Klingon side will match up to the Federation.

[jamestpicard55]

If you don't like something, you have the freedom to leave and participate in something else. Its a pretty darn simple thing.

Once again, your giving advice you cant even follow yourself. If you dont like what I'm saying(which you obviously dont, or you wouldnt be replying), then you have the freedom to leave and participate in something else. Oh thats right, you cant even follow your own advice :rolleyes:

[eNDIE]

I think the pvp differens might just be the ability to pvp between houses other than that i think the pve and other things will be similar

[eNDIE]

Kriss and picard use pms and dont ruin this thread

[blujester]

From the information we have (which sadly, isn't much) It would almost appear the Devs are tailoring KDF for the hardcore PVP'rs and the EVE crowed who want blood and gore right away. While I'm sure the devs won't totally neglect PVE content for the KDF it wouldn't surprise me if it's of a different, more martial flavor as would be reflected in Klingon culture.

Now if this is a good compromise or a bad one, I can't honestly say. From my own perspective I planned on having a Klingon alt to partake in the PVP battles but fully intended to enjoy the majority of my time on the Fed side exploring and doing story oriented content as thats my favorite aspect in MMO's. But a little carnage and the superior challenge of PVP is always a nice alternative. And of course, I plan to PVP a bit on the Fed side too as the Klingons need targets and I like the idea of trying to out wit a crafty opponent with a cloak and excessive fire power.

I'm sure this thread will get the Devs attention and certainly hope our concerns are unfounded, if not entirely, then perhaps in part.



Bj

[Varrangian]

The last thing they need are Fed players joining and wondering why they got jipped on PvP content, and Klingon players wondering why they got jipped on PvE content

And this is the crux of the matter. I like a blend of both content. PvP is fun, but I never have time to invest in being competitive, so if Klingons are more oriented to PvP then I have less ability to play them.

No one here is arguing that the content itself should be the same, but that the opportunities for PvE, Episodic content and PvP should be equal. Combat oriented is different from PvP oriented and that's where I think Cryptic is making a mistake.

[jamestpicard55]

And this is the crux of the matter. I like a blend of both content. PvP is fun, but I never have time to invest in being competitive, so if Klingons are more oriented to PvP then I have less ability to play them.

No one here is arguing that the content itself should be the same, but that the opportunities for PvE, Episodic content and PvP should be equal. Combat oriented is different from PvP oriented and that's where I think Cryptic is making a mistake.

exactly. players should have the choice between PvE or PvP, no matter which faction they play. so long as Klingon players are not pushed into the PvP zones by the way the game is designed, thats fine.

[SnowMantis]

They certainly do seem unconcerned about a lot of things they should be concerned about. I know I have absolutely no interest in Klingon faction in-fighting. I'm about competing against the opposing faction. Not tearing apart my own.


Isn't this how Klingon's cull the weak in order to make the faction stronger? As for a gaming perspective, the interplay (PvP) would tend to have an educational effect on "how to fight" whether you like it or not. I guess there is no room for care bears flying Klingon ships.

[Exist-nl-]

Il be popping those Miranda's anyway :)

[Greenomen]

And this is the crux of the matter. I like a blend of both content. PvP is fun, but I never have time to invest in being competitive, so if Klingons are more oriented to PvP then I have less ability to play them.

No one here is arguing that the content itself should be the same, but that the opportunities for PvE, Episodic content and PvP should be equal. Combat oriented is different from PvP oriented and that's where I think Cryptic is making a mistake.

You make a good point here. In general we all want to see the Federation, Klingons, and hopefully Romulan someday, game play remain unique. The point to drive home is there needs to be some PvE content on the Klingon side. Maybe not like what’s on the Federation side, maybe more along the lines of Conquest and Expansion.

1 thing, there are many and yet continue to play, I really hate about WoW is when you create a new toon you have to start at the begin and repeat the same stuff again. Yes there are some variations at low levels, but in general to get from lvl 40-80 is 80% the same every time. The longer you play WoW the more Wow seems to be like work and less like play.

[Hagon]

Also, if you made both sides exactly the same, then the KDF would just be the Federation with different ships. There would be the illusion of a different approach, but in the end the game would end up being much the same.

Where did anyone say that they should be exactly the same? That's twice now people have waded into the thread and completely misrepresented the issue, whether intentionally or not.

It's not about making them the same.

It's about affording both the factions the same opportunities to participate in, or avoid, PvP content, and not having one faction perceived as being for PvPers and one faction perceived as being for PvEers. Because no matter what lip service gets paid to the issue, I think most people with any experience in this genre know that is precisely how it will be perceived by those looking at the game from the outside and contemplating whether or not to play it, and what faction to play if they do.

Thus we end up with all or most of the PvPers on one side, and pressuring everyone on their side to PvP and discouraging PvE play (which happens in every single PvP oriented game or server), and all the PvEers going to the other side and discouraging everyone on their side from PvPing. So in short order it becomes not a FvF conflict going on, but only internal duels between Klingon fleets. Making the elements that were supposed to be in the Neutral Zone and outlying reaches of space void of any players.

[MatrinZachs]

Have we forgotten that there are many Klingon scientist in the Star Trek Universe. How do you think the developed cloaking tech. A warrior death on the battle feild is an honor but to die from a common infection that could be treat with simple means is not the klingon way. There should be lots of content for the Klingon on player. Besided you have to explore to find new places to conquer you have science to come up with new ways to defeat enemies. And Klingons respect (maybe not openly) any one that is willing to stand up for themselves. Besides there are those in the Fed that think the only good Klingon is a dead one and will be more than happy to send them to StoVoKor.

[Loekii]

I'm interested in PvE alot and i'm hoping to do a good amount of PvP so i'm wondering how the PvE content on Klingon side will match up to the Federation.

Ideally, it will basically be the same for the most part, with the KDF having more PVP Opportunities (ie House Wars) than the FEDs (who sound like they will have a bit more Exploration/science content). Ideally, the amount of 'PvP' in the KDF faction would only amount to say a 10% difference in content style. The other 90% would still be PvE based.

[SnowMantis]

Where did anyone say that they should be exactly the same? That's twice now people have waded into the thread and completely misrepresented the issue, whether intentionally or not.

It's not about making them the same.

It's about affording both the factions the same opportunities to participate in, or avoid, PvP content, and not having one faction perceived as being for PvPers and one faction perceived as being for PvEers. Because no matter what lip service gets paid to the issue, I think most people with any experience in this genre know that is precisely how it will be perceived by those looking at the game from the outside and contemplating whether or not to play it, and what faction to play if they do.

Thus we end up with all or most of the PvPers on one side, and pressuring everyone on their side to PvP and discouraging PvE play (which happens in every single PvP oriented game or server), and all the PvEers going to the other side and discouraging everyone on their side from PvPing. So in short order it becomes not a FvF conflict going on, but only internal duels between Klingon fleets. Making the elements that were supposed to be in the Neutral Zone and outlying reaches of space void of any players.


Yes as a game (not ST Cannon), you are exactly correct. The game needs to be balanced enough to offer the various opportunities to both factions without drawing one type of skill set/preference to one side or the other.

[Peregrine_Falcon]

How do you think the developed cloaking tech.
The Romulans developed the cloaking device.

The Klingons purchased or took it from them.

[Vorador]

Klingons will be pvp focused probably because Cryptic does not have time to generate enough PvE content to meet the release date. In other words, Klingons will basically be half finished at launch.

[Interdictor]

Vive la differance!

I think having different gamplay in the two starting factions is a GREAT idea. It would REALLY enhance the replayability of the game - if you want to take a break from Fed missions, you can slip into your Klingon avatar and play on that side of the fence.

[Pyrceval]

The Romulans developed the cloaking device.

The Klingons purchased or took it from them.



One of those canon/retcon confusion things...wasn't it supposedly part of the trade with the treaty that they came up with the explain them using Klingon ships for Romulan ships during ToS (in reality they lost the model)...thought it went Klingons got the cloak out of it, Romulans got a ship or two and some form of warp drive they didnt previously have.

[Varrangian]

Vive la differance!

I think having different gamplay in the two starting factions is a GREAT idea. It would REALLY enhance the replayability of the game - if you want to take a break from Fed missions, you can slip into your Klingon avatar and play on that side of the fence.

There is nothing replay able about PvP content.

[Loekii]

Klingons will be pvp focused probably because Cryptic does not have time to generate enough PvE content to meet the release date. In other words, Klingons will basically be half finished at launch.

That is the way it sounds:

"The content that they will be experiencing is a lot more focused on PvP - fighting the Federation, fighting House versus House within the Klingon empire. So it is a full-on character with advancement, with items, with bridge officers as well. So it's a lot more than the Monster Play."

So if the Klingons are just going to be 'PvP Monsters', like LOTRs, it means that there wont be much PvE content at all. Basically they will just be a side game. :(

[masonburrell]

i don't think that having a faction a little more pvp than the other will create alot of problems. if anything this should help even out the population distrabution. since we know that Alot of players are going to be fed. it's like giving Chaos a buff since they are way out numberd in warhammer online. but the pvp changes should not be so crazy that a kingon player can win a 1v1 100% of the the time.

[slingbladez]

Vive la differance!

I think having different gamplay in the two starting factions is a GREAT idea. It would REALLY enhance the replayability of the game - if you want to take a break from Fed missions, you can slip into your Klingon avatar and play on that side of the fence.

I agree as long as the difference is only in the feel of the PvE experience. I.E federation will be out exploring and trying to meet new races and set up relations, non combat missions etc. The klingons could be exploring and conquering new worlds and species as well as picking fights with neighbouring factions and occasionally their own. If they both have close to the same amount of PvE content but with different feels to how each faction plays then I actually like that approach.

If they decide to just give us less PvE and more PvP and vice versa for Federation then that would be a poor approach.

[Loekii]

If they decide to just give us less PvE and more PvP and vice versa for Federation then that would be a poor approach.

I fear they are going to give ALOT less PvE content to the Klingons.

[blujester]

I think many of us are reading to much into this without enough solid info to go on. I can not imagine the Devs neglecting PVE for one side in any fashion. What I do forsee is the likely hood that KDF PVE will be far more focused on combat and conquest and much less concerned with scientific study's and diplomacy. For a Klingon Diplomacy is saying nice doggy until you can pick up a rock and kill it.

Now what this will do in the end is make the KDF much more practiced in martial skills which is fitting. It also puts an incredible burden on the Fed side PVPr's who will be less practiced in combat and dealing with cloaked adversary's with tremendous fire power.

Until we see it in action I can't call doom and gloom or Panic just yet.



Bj

[Loekii]

I think many of us are reading to much into this without enough solid info to go on. I can not imagine the Devs neglecting PVE for one side in any fashion.

Bj

They did it in LoTRO, so the precedent has been set. Craig even sites that mechanic ("Monster Play") in the interview.

I am afraid that they are taking the approach, that STO is about:

Being a Federation Player
With a KDF Alt to dabble in PvP with.


I have zero interest in playing Federation. So my game just got a whole lot smaller. :(

[blujester]

They did it in LoTRO, so the precedent has been set.

But Cryptic didn't build LoTR. They Did build CoH/CoV and both sides have robust PVE content with entirely different feel to them. As I said..until we see or get more info there is little reason to panic. We in this thread are making our concerns known as we should. But I'd advise against any rage quit reactions as of yet. Not that you would sir. That was intended for the masses.


Bj

[sabrehawk]

I sometimes have doubts about Cryptic's ability to provide a game that their players want. Why would they produce a game with two factions but make one (KDF) a wading pool compared to the olympic sized pool that the Federation is?

I've been getting the impression that they enjoy making their games as shallow as possible.

There should be no reason to treat the KDF as glorified monster play. Give them a full story compaign and then have some of it devoted to house fighting, then let the PvP spring from that and their raiding of the Federation. Seems like a logical thing to do, but then again I've been dissapointed by Cryptic's decisions in the past, namely purchasing the Champions universe but not the actual game system.

[Deltaop]

woah sounds like they spent ages making and designing a federation campaign and missions, and spent maybe half the time or less doing the klingon side, making the klingon side not as in depth. So they add more pvp type content to fill the holes. I get the feeling STO is going be like the original dawn of war where the Space Marines got a really good campaign where the other races get nothing or some pisweak excuse for a campaign with some generic missions.

I'm not saying that both races should be mirrored but klinks should have the same amount of missions and PVE content as the feds, and the missions should be different.

Seriously klinks need to be playable from program launch , not this play as federation for 3 hours crap to unlock klingons and they need the same amount of PVE content as feds. Without these changes i believe even more players will be reluctant to play as klingons (at least initally) making the game even more one sided. Do we want a game where for every 5 federation players there is 1 klingon player cause thats the way it looks where it is headed right now, maybe an even higher population imbalance ratio.

Even worse this kind of approach may see federation as the n00b race and klingon as the pr0 race , where noobs play as federation then once they become good switch to klingon, thus making all the noobs on federation and most of the vets on klingon.

Ok maybe this is an overeaction because none of us have seen the final game yet and people are coming to conclusions based on statements from cryptic.

Still the concerns and valid and i voice my concerns along with other peoples posts.

Cryptic you have been told.

[Hagon]

Aye, I think it's becoming ever more clear that the "The Atari deal doesn't change anything and we still run the show" was in fact the sham statement that many thought it was. Unfortunately it appears I was one of the foolish that bought into that statement. :( . It looks like they're rushing the game out no matter what.

[BrokNor]

What would be even nicer, is to have a dev come on here and say something in regards to this thread.

[Koba]

I have never seen a Star Trek episode where Klignon's are "exploring." Probing for possible combat situations may be, but not exploring. PvP-heavy Klignon is exactly representative of a Star Trek IP. Just because the Federation and Klignon side are not the same, does not mean that they both do not provide rich experiences.

We have no idea how the PvP scenarios will work on the Klignon side. I do not think they are rushing the game. They are just providing two DIFFERENT play experiences depending on the faction you chose. I would not want to play Klignons with a Federation skin on it. That would hurt the IP.

If you do not like PvP, do not play Klignons.

[Manx]

There should be no reason to treat the KDF as glorified monster play. Give them a full story compaign and then have some of it devoted to house fighting, then let the PvP spring from that and their raiding of the Federation.

That probably is what they are doing.

All Cryptic said is that it won't be as story driven as the Fed game; I don't believe for a moment that there will be no story at all.

Give them a little credit; they do read these forums and are well aware that the Klingon fans expect just as much from STO as anyone else.

[cocoa-jin]

Klingon in-fighting, with respect to ship combat, seems to be limited to actual declarations of hostilities between specific Houses. Not random encounters of free for all in-fighting. I hope the devs provide some similar organized and procedural model for Klingon in-fighting...not just random skirmages.

Now it does seem that personal meleee encounters are "random", but even they require more than just fighting because you can.

I just dont want to see the Klingons marginaized into this one dimensional oaf. I would like to see the Klingons to be portrayed as the honarable, intelligent, socially and culturlly in-depth race that they are. I, of course, embrace their combative nature to resolve issues of honor...but making Klingons just randomly fighting to th death is so wrong.

[sabrehawk]

I mean have part of the story pve content be about joining a house, and finding out who your rivals are, then explain in pve content the need to do the house fighting to promote strength and cull out the weak. Then show the KDF players where to go to partake of the house fighting. There also be better rewards for doing the house fighting than regular pvp so that there is a reason for the KDF to fight their own.

[Manx]

I mean have part of the story pve content be about joining a house, and finding out who your rivals are, then explain in pve content the need to do the house fighting to promote strength and cull out the weak. Then show the KDF players where to go to partake of the house fighting. There also be better rewards for doing the house fighting than regular pvp so that there is a reason for the KDF to fight their own.

That... would actually be pretty cool :):cool:

[BrokNor]

I have never seen a Star Trek episode where Klignon's are "exploring." Probing for possible combat situations may be, but not exploring.

Thats only because Klingons were not the main focus of any of the shows and or movies.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

But Cryptic didn't build LoTR. They Did build CoH/CoV and both sides have robust PVE content with entirely different feel to them.

Unfortunately, COV was the expansion, so I hope that doesnt mean the KDF wont have the "full experience" at launch.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

woah sounds like they spent ages making and designing a federation campaign and missions, and spent maybe half the time or less doing the klingon side, making the klingon side not as in depth. So they add more pvp type content to fill the holes. I get the feeling STO is going be like the original dawn of war where the Space Marines got a really good campaign where the other races get nothing or some pisweak excuse for a campaign with some generic missions.

I really hope your wrong, but I have a bad feeling you may be right. Think about it: supposedly we're at the very most 2 months away from beta, maybe sooner because they said "definitely this year", yet we know almost nothing about one of the two factions in the game. We dont even have a shiplist :confused:

[RoydEris]

I acctualy like that klingon side going to be different... well they are the warrior species after all...
Its interesting idea how to mix canon with game mechanic.
Which game can offer such thing?
I say its interesting.
We will see how its work out.

[Archangelwoghd]

I seriously hope that Cryptic hasn't discovered a way to **** off the Klingons. How is PvP going to work without Klingons anyway?

[The.Grand.Nagus]

I acctualy like that klingon side going to be different... well they are the warrior species after all...
Its interesting idea how to mix canon with game mechanic.
Which game can offer such thing?
I say its interesting.
We will see how its work out.

There are tons of games that offer different stories for different factions. Story = good. However, forcing players into a type of gameplay they dont want to take part in is a very bad idea for business.

[sir_theodorik]

There's nothing stopping them from Klingonizing (technical term) the missions they make for the Federation. I think the comments they made were under the assumption that Klingon players are probably going to be more interested in PvP in general because when people think "Exploring new worlds, seeking out new life and new civilizations" they think of the Federation and not Klingons. There will be data to collect, people to capture or rescue, peons to cower, restless worlds to bully into submission, and so on. And then there will be design focus of making sure they can PvP all they want.

[Vicelance]

I hope Klingons arn't just for PVP I really want to have a Klingon alt but I've never been one to PVP more than a couple of times.

[RoydEris]

There are tons of games that offer different stories for different factions. Story = good. However, forcing players into a type of gameplay they dont want to take part in is a very bad idea for business.

It might be just time issue.
Who knows what PvE content they will recieve post launch.
I am not fond of PvP myself.
I believe it wont be that bad at the end. ;)

[The.Grand.Nagus]

It might be just time issue.
Who knows what PvE content they will recieve post launch.
I am not fond of PvP myself.
I believe it wont be that bad at the end. ;)

Pushing games out before their ready to meet a deadline is always bad for the game. I hope Cryptic doesnt make the same mistake so many game companies have made in that regard.

[Tribbler]

FYI: Carebear:
1. Term applied by PvP (player vs. player) participants in an online role-playing game to those players are disinterested in PvP conflict. Usually derogatory.

2. A player who detests Player versus Player (PvP) gaming and whines about how it ruins their gaming enjoyment.

3. A player who is afraid of getting ganked by other gaming players.

4. A player who ruined the PvP MMORPG industry by complaining so much that PvP MMORPG development is rare.

there are many more, but this should give you a general idea of Carebear as it refers to in MMO content.

LOL I thought a Carebear was an MMO player who was more intersted in helping others than anything else including their own progression. Helps those that have no clue and sits and waits for the next wayward and lost soul and that was it.

Just learned there's more meaning.

:)

[The.Grand.Nagus]

LOL I thought a Carebear was an MMO player who was more intersted in helping others than anything else including their own progression. Helps those that have no clue and sits and waits for the next wayward and lost soul and that was it.

Just learned there's more meaning.

:)

Basicly, its a term concocted by people who feel the need to demean others to make themselves feel better.

[Faerlzress]

Well the latest info given is a bit confusing, but one thing is crystal clear. At least to me. This whole thing about making the Klingon experience more PvP oriented than the Federation experience is just plain silly. Both sides should be exactly the same in that regard. Both with an equal opportunity to PvP, or not, depending on what the player feels like doing on any given day.

All this does is ensure it's a game with a bunch of people dissatisfied that there's not enough players of the other faction to PvP against.

Actually in terms of Star Trek the Klingons being more PvP makes perfect sense. If you want to gain rank don't you have to defeat the senior officer in combat? The factions are not equal in lore or in action.

If you want to gain ranks quickly and be respected in Klingon society you are going to have to fight other Klingons.

This adds more reasons to play the game not less. It opens up a different play style that actually adds to the real feel of being a Klingon. You can rank up defeating a senior PvE officer? When the guy next to you ranked up defeating a senior PvP officer?

Let's say I play the game for a year as a Fed. Now I can go play the Klingon side for a totally different gameplay feel and rank up system.

I think this is a smart idea and it fits the mythos. This is also in line with the Klingon theme.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

Actually in terms of Star Trek the Klingons being more PvP makes perfect sense.

No it doesnt. You are making the common mistake of thinking "combat" and "PvP'" the same thing. Their not. You can engage in just as much combat through PvE as you can through PvP. Just because a person may not want to fight against other players does not mean they dont want to fight. The Klingons are a combat-oriented society, but that does not mean they are PvP-oriented.

[erriku]

LOL I thought a Carebear was an MMO player who was more intersted in helping others than anything else including their own progression. Helps those that have no clue and sits and waits for the next wayward and lost soul and that was it.

Just learned there's more meaning.

:)

You both are wrong. All Klingons from the House of Carebears are known baby eaters.

[Varrangian]

No it doesnt. You are making the common mistake of thinking "combat" and "PvP'" the same thing. Their not. You can engage in just as much combat through PvE as you can through PvP. Just because a person may not want to fight against other players does not mean they dont want to fight. The Klingons are a combat-oriented society, but that does not mean they are PvP-oriented.

And this is the problem. PvP is not just combat, it is to a great degree a culture of its own within MMO's. Being competitive enough to actually participate in PvP is another issue. While Craig denied it the more I think about the information we have at hand the more I do believe the Klingons are being treated like the "monster" play in LoTRO.

It will be very sad, even if it is a more "developed" system then "monster play", if the developers have decided to erase the rich tapestry of Klingon culture that has been established.

[Loekii]

That probably is what they are doing.

All Cryptic said is that it won't be as story driven as the Fed game; I don't believe for a moment that there will be no story at all.

Give them a little credit; they do read these forums and are well aware that the Klingon fans expect just as much from STO as anyone else.

I worry that they are going to give the Federation a Novel, and the Klingons a Comic book. :(

[erriku]

I worry that they are going to give the Federation a Novel, and the Klingons a Comic book. :(

What if that comic book is Watchmen quality and the novel is really nothing more than a thesaurus? ;)

[blujester]

Basicly, its a term concocted by people who feel the need to demean others to make themselves feel better.

Ok ... thats just false right there Nagus.. sorry but it is. Care bears are people who want to play a casual game and PVE and craft and Role play and so on but have no interest in direct combat with a human opponent. That's all it really means in a nut shell. I'm a care bear in some games as I find the PVP either to difficult or to easy and would prefer to just enjoy the story. It's not derogatory if it's not used as an insult directly, it's simply a descriptive term for some one who avoids direct confrontation in a game. In other games I've been an avid PVP participant because I enjoyed the nature of the combat. It's not in it's essence a demeaning term nor a criticism of anything. It's a catch all term for PVE focused players. How is that in any way insulting.

Now on the other hand, were I to say your opinion doesn't matter because you are a Care Bear and Care Bears opinions don't count, or implied such in the course of a conversation then it would be an insult. But it is in itself simply a descriptive term for a particular type of player but implies no judgment either way.



Bj

[erriku]

Ok ... thats just false right there Nagus.. sorry but it is. Care bears are people who want to play a casual game and PVE and craft and Role play and so on but have no interest in direct combat with a human opponent. That's all it really means in a nut shell. I'm a care bear in some games as I find the PVP either to difficult or to easy and would prefer to just enjoy the story. It's not derogatory if it's not used as an insult directly, it's simply a descriptive term for some one who avoids direct confrontation in a game. In other games I've been an avid PVP participant because I enjoyed the nature of the combat. It's not in it's essence a demeaning term nor a criticism of anything. It's a catch all term for PVE focused players. How is that in any way insulting.

Now on the other hand, were I to say your opinion doesn't matter because you are a Care Bear and Care Bears opinions don't count, or implied such in the course of a conversation then it would be an insult. But it is in itself simply a descriptive term for a particular type of player but implies no judgment either way.



Bj

He is trying to lure you into a flame war. I suspect that he and James .T. Picard are one and the same.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

Ok ... thats just false right there Nagus.. sorry but it is.

No, its not. The people to whom you think the term applies did not invent the term, it was invented by people who look down on them for the way they play. When a term is made by people who look down on others, it is derogatory. So regardless of how you try to spin it, the term is nothing more than a way for people who feel the need to insult others to make themselves feel a little bigger.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

I worry that they are going to give the Federation a Novel, and the Klingons a Comic book. :(

Thats actualy a great example.

[erriku]

I love that ignore option. :D

[Varrangian]

What if that comic book is Watchmen quality and the novel is really nothing more than a thesaurus? ;)

A thesaurus is not a novel. Had Loekii said a book your argument would be more correct, but a novel and a comic book have one key difference to them that makes Loekii's argument important. Novels by definition have more "fleshed out" story, Comic books regardless of how good they are rely upon the actual images to tell their stories.

[erriku]

A thesaurus is not a novel. Had Loekii said a book your argument would be more correct, but a novel and a comic book have one key difference to them that makes Loekii's argument important. Novels by definition have more "fleshed out" story, Comic books regardless of how good they are rely upon the actual images to tell their stories.

/Sigh. I was implying that what only appeared to be a novel at first glance, turned out to be a thesaurus. Come on mate, really? How could you have missed that? It was a joke anyway.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

What if that comic book is Watchmen quality and the novel is really nothing more than a thesaurus? ;)

Watchmen is unfortunately not the norm for comic books, so it would really be better if the Devs devoted teh same amount of time/effort into both factions.

[Varrangian]

/Sigh. I was implying that what only appeared to be a novel at first glance, turned out to be a thesaurus. Come on mate, really? How could you have missed that? It was a joke anyway.

So what is the purpose of your "joke"? Loekii has a very valid concern. I'm sure if this were the Federation faction that was being shafted in such a way the entire forum would be up in arms.

[erriku]

So what is the purpose of your "joke"? Loekii has a very valid concern. I'm sure if this were the Federation faction that was being shafted in such a way the entire forum would be up in arms.

..................... Wow.

[Hagon]

Actually in terms of Star Trek the Klingons being more PvP makes perfect sense. If you want to gain rank don't you have to defeat the senior officer in combat? The factions are not equal in lore or in action.

If you want to gain ranks quickly and be respected in Klingon society you are going to have to fight other Klingons.

This adds more reasons to play the game not less. It opens up a different play style that actually adds to the real feel of being a Klingon. You can rank up defeating a senior PvE officer? When the guy next to you ranked up defeating a senior PvP officer?

Let's say I play the game for a year as a Fed. Now I can go play the Klingon side for a totally different gameplay feel and rank up system.

I think this is a smart idea and it fits the mythos. This is also in line with the Klingon theme.For one, that's a novice's look at Klingons, and what they're about. For another, it diminishes the game for everyone in the end. It tries to file players off in one slot or another depending on their play style preferences, and fails to recognize that most players can't be categorized as "x" or "y" or "z" anymore. It sounds like something that got tabled and approved in some meeting full of people that are almost totally out of touch with today's mmo market.

I worry that they are going to give the Federation a Novel, and the Klingons a Comic book. :(I know you and I are often at odds with each other, but I must say that is very well put.

[Faerlzress]

So what is the purpose of your "joke"? Loekii has a very valid concern. I'm sure if this were the Federation faction that was being shafted in such a way the entire forum would be up in arms.

You are actually shafting yourselves. You are being given gameplay that is actually appropriate for the Klingons and will add value to the game.

[Varrangian]

You are actually shafting yourselves. You are being given gameplay that is actually appropriate for the Klingons and will add value to the game.

So the federation should be forced to play with Player crews as it is more conducive to the Federation way of thinking.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

You are actually shafting yourselves. You are being given gameplay that is actually appropriate for the Klingons and will add value to the game.

PvP and combat are not the same thing. Just because a person wants to play a Klingon does not mean they want to PvP. PvE is combat too.

[blujester]

No, its not. The people to whom you think the term applies did not invent the term, it was invented by people who look down on them for the way they play. When a term is made by people who look down on others, it is derogatory. So regardless of how you try to spin it, the term is nothing more than a way for people who feel the need to insult others to make themselves feel a little bigger.

So...when I refer to myself as a carebear it's to make myself feel better? Or is it to insult myself so I'll feel belittled? I must admit I am confused.

While the term evolved from certain games as a sophomoric insult it has since evolved into a simple descriptive phrase indicating a preferred play style. It can be used as a derogatory term or more commonly in modern vernacular it simply refers to a certain aspect of the gaming community. The common usage is in no way insulting. For it to be insulting requires context that is confrontational in nature. To label it as an insult is to overlook the true nature of the term in preference to it's less common usage.


Bj

[The.Grand.Nagus]

So...when I refer to myself as a carebear it's to make myself feel better? Or is it to insult myself so I'll feel belittled? I must admit I am confused.

While the term evolved from certain games as a sophomoric insult it has since evolved into a simple descriptive phrase indicating a preferred play style. It can be used as a derogatory term or more commonly in modern vernacular it simply refers to a certain aspect of the gaming community. The common usage is in no way insulting. For it to be insulting requires context that is confrontational in nature. To label it as an insult is to overlook the true nature of the term in preference to it's less common usage.


Bj

I believe that earlier in this thread you said something about how the idea of "Klingon carebears" disturbed you. If its not derrogatory, and you did not mean in a derrogatory way, then exactly what is so "disturbing" to you about a Klingon player who enjoys PvE more than PvP?

[Hagon]

You are actually shafting yourselves. You are being given gameplay that is actually appropriate for the Klingons and will add value to the game.Not only is it not "appropriate" for Klingons, it's a slap in the face to those that were hoping for the factions to come together internally to fight against their opposing faction. Now this pretty much ensures that the Klingon faction will be nothing more than petty duelists "taking each other on".

[erriku]

Not only is it not "appropriate" for Klingons, it's a slap in the face to those that were hoping for the factions to come together internally to fight against their opposing faction. Now this pretty much ensures that the Klingon faction will be nothing more than petty duelists "taking each other on".

From watching the series, that is pretty much an everyday occurrence in the Klingon culture. One calls another a coward, they fight to the death, victor goes the spoils.

[EberKain]

Im actually intrested, if both sides were the same then it would be ground already passed over in other mmos. This game will let us create characters on both sides on the same server, which is all going to be a new concept.. I think it will work.

[Varrangian]

Im actually intrested, if both sides were the same then it would be ground already passed over in other mmos. This game will let us create characters on both sides on the same server, which is all going to be a new concept.. I think it will work.

Again no one is arguing for the same content, but the same distribution of focuses... PvP is not content. PvP is a play style. PvE is not in and of itself content, it is a play style. To force one faction into one play style is poor design choices.

[blujester]

I believe that earlier in this thread you said something about how the idea of "Klingon carebears" disturbed you. If its not derrogatory, and you did not mean in a derrogatory way, then exactly what is so "disturbing" to you about a Klingon player who enjoys PvE more than PvP?

Exactly that. That someone would be inclined to play a Klingon and not be predisposed to combat and PVP. I believe I made that rather clear. I am in no way advocating that Klingon game play be all PVP all the time but am frankly surprised that Klingon fans wouldn't insist upon it. At the very least I would think Klingons would be all combat all the time because it fits with the nature and lore of the Great Klingon Empire that the way to honor is through your enemy's chest. I am entitled to an opinion on the matter and as I had and once again have clarified the definition and nature of the term in the context it was used I see no conflict?

For a Klingon to shun Battle or avoid conflict is as anathema to their nature as it would be for a Federation officer to Conquer a planet. It is simply not what we have been led to believe through hundreds of episodes and 11 movies. This and only this is my point.


Bj

[The.Grand.Nagus]

Exactly that. That someone would be inclined to play a Klingon and not be predisposed to combat and PVP.j

Combat /= PvP. Combat simply means fighting. You can fight players, or you can fight NPCs. Niether is more "valid" than another in a video game, they are both combat. So just because someone wants to play a Klingon doesnt mean they want to PvP, and just because they dont want to PvP doesnt mean they avoid combat.

[Varrangian]

Exactly that. That someone would be inclined to play a Klingon and not be predisposed to combat and PVP. I believe I made that rather clear. I am in no way advocating that Klingon game play be all PVP all the time but am frankly surprised that Klingon fans wouldn't insist upon it. At the very least I would think Klingons would be all combat all the time because it fits with the nature and lore of the Great Klingon Empire that the way to honor is through your enemy's chest. I am entitled to an opinion on the matter and as I had and once again have clarified the definition and nature of the term in the context it was used I see no conflict?

For a Klingon to shun Battle or avoid conflict is as anathema to their nature as it would be for a Federation officer to Conquer a planet. It is simply not what we have been led to believe through hundreds of episodes and 11 movies. This and only this is my point.


Bj

Why is it so impossible for people to understand that PvP is not the same thing as combat. PvP is a type of game style for combat content, but PvE is also a kind of play style for combat content.

In fact, PvE implies combat because it contains the term versus, an adversarial relationship that in video games has really only been able to be expressed through combat mechanisms.

Further more your use of "care bear" is in fact dismissive, it put a label on someone regardless of it being attached to and other language it categorizes someone as one specific thing.

The problem with all of this is that play styles are being forced on people. They've made it clear that Feds will never have to compete in PvP, so we should either allow for equal choice in play style for each faction or we should for all Feds to be nothing but PvE players.

[erriku]

Calm down. There is nothing wrong with the term care bear. It perfectly describes a specific type of player. Grow up.

[Hagon]

Again, it just leads the game into a situation where everyone that is inclined to PvP will be on one side, and everyone that's not willl be on the other, and the people playing the Klingon faction will have nobody except others of their own faction to fight against. It, along with the silly one server for all concept with players being able to play both factions on the same server, will completely destroy any hopes of rich and vibrant faction vs faction competition.

[Varrangian]

Again, it just leads the game into a situation where everyone that is inclined to PvP will be on one side, and everyone that's not willl be on the other, and the people playing the Klingon faction will have nobody except others of their own faction to fight against. It, along with the silly one server for all concept with players being able to play both factions on the same server, will completely destroy any hopes of rich and vibrant faction vs faction competition.

Let alone the fact that it does not admit to the reality that most players are not pure PvEers or PvPers. Most people like a mixed style. They seem to be happy to cater to that for the Federation, but not so for the Klingons which is a tremendous mistake.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

Calm down. There is nothing wrong with the term care bear. It perfectly describes a specific type of player. Grow up.

Actualy, it doesnt. If anything, care bear could possibly be associated with someone who doesnt like ANY type of combat(like a pacifist). However, the term has come to be applied to anyone who doesnt want to PvP, even if they DO like PvE. And since PvE is a form of combat, that contradicts the pacifist implication.

[Darkpnv]

me and my friends are planing to be klingons but some of my friends dont like pvp that much so this could couse us to splt factions and my favurate thing about mmo's is that i can play with my friends

[erriku]

me and my friends are planing to be klingons but some of my friends dont like pvp that much so this could couse us to splt factions and my favurate thing about mmo's is that i can play with my friends

It was never said that PvP will be the only thing available to the Klingons. It will just be the focus. There is still PvE content. Likewise, the Federation will have PvP content, but the focus will be on PvE.

[Antagonist]

Yes, this is definitealy a mistake. A common misconception is that "combat" and "PvP" are the same thing; their not. You can do just as much fighting through PvE as you can through PvP. Just because the Klingons are a combat-oriented culture does not mean that the people who play them want to PvP. Granted, I'm sure there will be plenty that do. However, that does not mean those who dont want to PvP should be forced to.

they never said that you were forced to, fortunately. in fact, if you want to only PVP as a fed or only PVE as a klingon, you are welcome to do so:)

[Loekii]

Let alone the fact that it does not admit to the reality that most players are not pure PvEers or PvPers. Most people like a mixed style. They seem to be happy to cater to that for the Federation, but not so for the Klingons which is a tremendous mistake.

Bingo.

Warhammer Online, is a Faction Vs. Faction game - an MMORPG geared towards PvPers -- but even Mythic realised that PvP is not a Main course.

The question on the table is how much PvE Content exists for the Klingon Players.

I do not want to see STO be like a version of WoW, where the Alliance (Feds) get all their exsiting content, but the Horde (Klingons) only get The BarrensLands for PVE content - with Cryptic saying that PVP and BGs will 'balance' the content between the two.

[Varrangian]

they never said that you were forced to, fortunately. in fact, if you want to only PVP as a fed or only PVE as a klingon, you are welcome to do so:)

Eurogamer: It sounds like Monster Play from Lord of the Rings Online, which unlocks at 10 and provides a 'nasty' faction for the good guys to fight in PvP - at the appropriate levels. Is that what you're doing?

Craig Zinkievich: No, we'll be offering full-on character advancement: you will create a Klingon player, you will have his ship, he will level up. The content that they will be experiencing is a lot more focused on PvP - fighting the Federation, fighting House versus House within the Klingon empire. So it is a full-on character with advancement, with items, with bridge officers as well. So it's a lot more than the Monster Play.

TrekMovie: Star Trek Online has two warring factions, The Federation and the Klingon Empire. We did a poll on the site and it showed that the vast majority were more interested in playing on the Federation side. Plus it seems there are more Federation fleets forming as well. Are you concerned there is going to be an imbalance in the game?

Craig Zinkievich: No. Someone PMed me your poll, we did a poll very early on after we announced the game, and our numbers were right around the same numbers. So we have really tried to make sure that the design supports that natural imbalance. So the Klingon gameplay is going to be much different than what the Federation is getting. It is going to be a lot more focused on the PvP [Player vs. Player] and focused on the houses within the Klingon Empire than really big story episodic exploration-focused that the Federation faction is going to have.

Neither of these quotes says anything about PvE. If it is implied then why has Cryptic been explicit about PvE content and PvP content for the Federation, but only explicit about PvP content for the Klingons?

[prem0nition]

This thread is so full of win it's unbelievable... or is that whine? Either way, a lot of cheese needs to be handed out.

First of all. regarding the use of "monster play" in the article... Did anyone actually read it? Craig DID NOT introduce the term into the interview. It was Eurogamer who did that, and Craig replied with that phrase in mind.

Second, The Klingon side having a PvP focus compared to the federation makes absolute and 100% sense (and yes, I know the difference between combat and PvP). Klingons have a strict honour code, one where a wrong word, spoken in a second of anger can insult the opposing Klingon's honour and possibly lead to a fight to the death, or at minimum, long lasting grudges (as can be seen between Martok and Korr in the DS9 episode "Once More Unto the Breach" over a perceived slight in their younger days).

Tensions between Klingon houses are generally rather high, and skirmishes between Rival house forces. Klingon Society as a whole survives by skirting close to the edge (close to, but not on) of an all out civil war. It is generally, only the leadership of the High Council that stops the Klingon Empire falling into that war, but even so, the smallest change can tip the balance in the wrong direction. As an example, please take a look at the TNG episode Redemption (part 1 and 2) where the Duras family, emboldened by Romulan support, attempt to seize control of the empire. Usually, the only way to "unite" the Klingon people is by the High Council finding an outside source to focus their aggression on. See the Federation in the original series, or the Romulans in TNG (something used quite well by the federation whenever Klingon attention ever started to focus in their direction), and of course, the Cardassians in DS9 when the Founders were stirring things up.

This means that yes, the Klingon side will have a bigger focus on PvP. Be this PvP vs the Federation players or against rival houses/guilds. I think I may actually repeat that... PvP between rival guilds!!!

Third, just because a faction has a focus on PvP doesn't mean that there wont be as much opportunity for PvE content. I am sure that Cryptic will be supplying plenty of episodic content for the Klingon playerbase, and I am 99.5% certain that the Genesis System will work just as fine for the Klingons as it will the Federation. That means that there should be plenty of content for PvE focused Klingon players.

Fourth, While this is more of a personal thing... As soon as someone uses the term "Carebear" regarding anything to do with PvP, that person loses all credibility in my eyes. It is a derogatory term, used by those who feel that their play style is superior to someone else's. It is getting to the point now that the use of the term in the eyes of some on the internet is getting close to being equivalent to calling a black person a "******" in real life. So please, stop it.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

Bingo.

Warhammer Online, is a Faction Vs. Faction game - an MMORPG geared towards PvPers -- but even Mythic realised that PvP is not a Main course.

The question on the table is how much PvE Content exists for the Klingon Players.

I do not want to see STO be like a version of WoW, where the Alliance (Feds) get all their exsiting content, but the Horde (Klingons) only get The BarrensLands for PVE content - with Cryptic saying that PVP and BGs will 'balance' the content between the two.

I've never played WoW, but that description seems to be an accurate summary of the fear most Klingon players have atm.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

This thread is so full of win it's unbelievable... or is that whine? Either way, a lot of cheese needs to be handed out.

I think you need to remove your last paragraph, or either change the wording.

[prem0nition]

I think you need to remove your last paragraph, or either change the wording.

Offended by it Grand Nagus? Unfortunately, I have to say "Good!" While most of my post was directed at those people who've immediately started shouting "DOOOOOOM!" due to the fact that the Klingons have a PvP focus (not looking at those who have shown an actual concern, just those who've gone into Chicken Little mode the moment they read something from the devs they don't like), the last paragraph was directed at those players who immediately look down on anyone showing concern at the PvP focus, and trot out the Term "Carebear" to describe them. It is a derogatory term, showing that those people who use it feel incredibly superior to those they're directing it against, and is a term which is beginning to reach a very offensive level to a lot of people, including me.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

Offended by it Grand Nagus? Unfortunately, I have to say "Good!"

Actualy, I'm not. I too disagree with the use of the term "carebaer", and I agree with the thought of your last paragraph. That said, there are likely to be some who are offended by what you said, and if anything it will only result in your post being edited by a mod, and then your point will be moot because it wont be there anymore :o

[Ziktur]

I just don't understand why either side has to be more focused on PvP or PvE? Not all Klingons are fighters! Not all Feds are peace loving hippies.

The Klingon has their Houses, Feds should have their War Games.

There is absolutely no reason to force one faction to have to literally choose one side or the other if they would rather PvP or PvE more in the game. It is just silly and lazy, nothing more.

This is still coming from a person who has no interest in playing as Klingon also. That has to say something.

[prem0nition]

I just don't understand why either side has to be more focued on PvP or PvE? Not all Klingons are fighters! Not all Feds are pease loving hippies.

The Klingon has their Houses, Feds should have their War Games.

There is absolutly no reason to force one faction to have to litterally choose one side or the other if they would rather PvP or PvE more in the game. It is just silly and lazy, nothing more.

This is the thing, my impression is that they aren't forcing you to choose between PvE and PvP. You'll be able to do both as much, or as little as you like in both races. It is just that due to the cultural difference between the two factions, the Klingons have more ways to indulge in pvp, be that picking a fight with the Federation in the neutral zone, dueling other Klingons or engaging in inter-house combat.

Saying that however, you do have a point regarding wargames. I would hope that the Devs do add a wargames option to the Federation side. Would have to be thematically different to inter-house squabbling, but should be possible, and rather fun :)

[]
Actualy, I'm not. I too disagree with the use of the term "carebaer", and I agree with the thought of your last paragraph. That said, there are likely to be some who are offended by what you said, and if anything it will only result in your post being edited by a mod, and then your point will be moot because it wont be there anymore :o

Meh, well see, if it gets edited, it gets edited. But I stand by the wording. If it doesn't, it might actually get through to some people that using the term does not help your point of view at all. If it gets that message through to even one person, then the risk of having the post edited and receiving a slap on the wrist (or worse) from a mod will be worth it. []

[Loekii]

This is the thing, my impression is that they aren't forcing you to choose between PvE and PvP. You'll be able to do both as much, or as little as you like in both races. It is just that due to the cultural difference between the two factions, the Klingons have more ways to indulge in pvp, be that picking a fight with the Federation in the neutral zone, dueling other Klingons or engaging in inter-house combat.



The thing is that PvP is not a viable replacement for content. Its not a 1:1 trade off.

PvP is a SUPPLEMENT to PvE content. Provide too little PvE content, and you have the same problem regardless if its Klingon or Federation. People get bored and leave.

Look at all the games that have had issues with content. Look at how bad AoC suffered for their 'lack of content' after level 20. AoC was a fun game, until the content ran out. AoC's Pvp was not able to stop the mass cancelations that followed because of the lack of PvE Content.

It would be foolish of Cryptic to assume that this would not happen in STO -- where Klingon players will start quiting if there is far too little PvE content, like players did in AoC.

[BrokNor]

I think they are doing more PvP content for Klingons right now cause they wanted to get the federation done and done right. They probably have a good amount of content in for the Klingons already so be patient. We'll probably see ALOT more Klingon content just after release, probably in the first few patches.

[Faerlzress]

It makes sense to me that Klingons are PvP Centric (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=28325).

Will you be able to PvE? Yes of course.
Will you need to PvP/PvE to gain rank. Very likely so.
Will there be trials sending you in to the fray proving your worth against enemies like the Feds (PvP). Probably so.

It just makes sense for the Klingons.
They will probably also have a focus on episodic content in the Neutral zone. This means PvP.

This is really a positive for the game and Klingon players.

[prem0nition]

The thing is that PvP is not a viable replacement for content. Its not a 1:1 trade off.

PvP is a SUPPLEMENT to PvE content. Provide too little PvE content, and you have the same problem regardless if its Klingon or Federation. People get bored and leave.

I completely agree, though I have come across plenty of players who wouldn't. I am also concerned about the possible lack of PvE content on the Klingon side, but that concern is heavily mitigated due to the existence of the Genesis system, which will provide a large amount (though not quite near infinite as some people at Cyptic are claiming :p) of randomly generated PvE locations and missions right off the bat. Plus I honestly doubt that Cryptic will be happy to sit back and let the Genesis System do all the work for them. I think they will be creating plenty of Episodic content for the Klingon side as well, just the focus will be much different to the Federation Episodic content, aka concentrating on combat and Conquering other races, rather than doing survey missions etc.

[slingbladez]

It makes sense to me that Klingons are PvP Centric (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=28325).

Will you be able to PvE? Yes of course.
Will you need to PvP/PvE to gain rank. Very likely so.
Will there be trials sending you in to the fray proving your worth against enemies like the Feds (PvP). Probably so.

It just makes sense for the Klingons.
They will probably also have a focus on episodic content in the Neutral zone. This means PvP.

This is really a positive for the game and Klingon players.

I want to do alot of PvE and some PvP at my leisure, not be forced into PvP.

When you said we would prove our worth against enemies like feds, who says they have to be player characters. We could just as easily go prove our worth against computer Federation ships.

[Ziktur]

It makes sense to me that Klingons are PvP Centric.

Will you be able to PvE? Yes of course.
Will you need to PvP/PvE to gain rank. Very likely so.
Will there be trials sending you in to the fray proving your worth against enemies like the Feds (PvP). Probably so.

It just makes sense for the Klingons.
They will probably also have a focus on episodic content in the Neutral zone. This means PvP.

This is really a positive for the game and Klingon players.

Again, not all Klingons are warriors. Not all Feds are peace loving hippies.

Saying that however, you do have a point regarding wargames. I would hope that the Devs do add a wargames option to the Federation side. Would have to be thematically different to inter-house squabbling, but should be possible, and rather fun


With your first part, PvP can only go so far though and content for PvE has to be there to make the Klingon side viable for anyone not looking for a more PvP type gameplay. But I'm glad someone agrees on the war games for Feds. Have like 4-6 different "special fleets" that allow for a daily mission or a weekly thing to be engaged in and to gain rep in the community.

[Faerlzress]

I want to do alot of PvE and some PvP at my leisure, not be forced into PvP.

When you said we would prove our worth against enemies like feds, who says they have to be player characters. We could just as easily go prove our worth against computer Federation ships.

True. Unless the feds are mostly in the neutral zone.

[prem0nition]

Again, not all Klingons are warriors. Not all Feds are peace loving hippies.

Not all Klingons are warriors, but from the same point, those Klingons generally don't end up commanding Starships ;)

Not all Fed are peace loving Hippies, but killing your commanding officer, or firing on another Federation ship will generally get you court Martial'ed and sent to prison, unlike in the Klingon Empire, where such acts, except in extreme cases, will generally get you a pat on the back and congratulations on your promotion ;)

With your first part, PvP can only go so far though and content for PvE has to be there to make the Klingon side viable for anyone not looking for a more PvP type gameplay. But I'm glad someone agrees on the war games for Feds. Have like 4-6 different "special fleets" that allow for a daily mission or a weekly thing to be engaged in and to gain rep in the community.

Agreed, it can only get you so far... but I think people are selling Cryptic short at the moment regarding what PvE content there will be for Klingons. There will certainly be the Genesis System functioning for the Klingons, just like for the federation, and I do, truly and honestly doubt that Cryptic will let the Genesis System do the job of creating all PvE content for the Klingons. I am sure that they will be making a good portion of episodic content for the Klingon faction, just that it will be more combat and conquer focused instead of Diplomacy and planetary scans.

[cocoa-jin]

I dont mind being attacked by fellow Klingons, i just dont want it being random, or for no reason. If my House is odds with another, I'd expect be PvP flagged by some one in that other house(and vice versa). If Im attacked, in my mind it make sense...I may not like it, but it makes sense and its a reasonable aspect of the game that I'd accept as a consequence of my association with a House(pressumably of my choice).

But I'd be disappointed if Klingon ships can just randomly engage others...or worse, we get thses silly duels to the death by invitation. Klingons dont seem willing to waste ships on silly duels(they waste them in House clashes), they'll do it in person, they'll melee until one is unable to continue to fight, laugh, embrace, eat food and be merry, but serious fights to the death require much more than some silly and random duel invite.

[DanSeale]

Well the latest info given is a bit confusing, but one thing is crystal clear. At least to me. This whole thing about making the Klingon experience more PvP oriented than the Federation experience is just plain silly. Both sides should be exactly the same in that regard. Both with an equal opportunity to PvP, or not, depending on what the player feels like doing on any given day.

All this does is ensure it's a game with a bunch of people dissatisfied that there's not enough players of the other faction to PvP against.

I agree Hagon. The deve team should take the time to insure that both sides are balanced, capable of PvP, capable of PvE and (I'll throw this in too) .. BOTH need tutorials. Invest the extra time NOW and Cryptic will not regret it later on !

[Varrangian]

Agreed, it can only get you so far... but I think people are selling Cryptic short at the moment regarding what PvE content there will be for Klingons. There will certainly be the Genesis System functioning for the Klingons, just like for the federation, and I do, truly and honestly doubt that Cryptic will let the Genesis System do the job of creating all PvE content for the Klingons. I am sure that they will be making a good portion of episodic content for the Klingon faction, just that it will be more combat and conquer focused instead of Diplomacy and planetary scans.

Here is where my doubt and problems come from, and you can check my track record here on these forums more often than not I've been accused of being a Cryptic fanboy. They have explicitly said there will be PvE and PvP content for the Federation. All we have is that there will be "some" PvE is the implication that it must be there.

I am not one to jump to conclusions, my main argument for the use of the rank Admiral is that we do not know what the end game will encompass.

But the language used in the two most recent interviews has not been terribly ambiguous, they are clearly showing a design decision that places a higher focus on PvP, to do so means that PvE will take a back seat and if we can imply there will be PvE based on their comments we can also imply that progression in the Klingon faction is not focused on PvE, or perhaps not even encompassing PvE.

[eqfan592]

It appears Klingons have no options. They can only PvP. There has been zero indications in the last two interviews that Klingons will be portrayed in STO as anything more than knuckle dragging orcs in space (to steal Peregine's term).

Ladies and gentlemen, I present you with the post that was unanimously agreed upon by the judges to be the greatest example of someone jumping to major conclusions based off of very little data that has ever existed in all of the history of the internets, even beating out posts supporting the anti-vaccination and moon landing hoax positions. Scientists will be studying this post for decades to come in order to determine the twisted logic pattern that is at it's core, in the hopes of preventing future such posts from ever appearing.

[eqfan592]

I am not one to jump to conclusions....



BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Laurelin]

Considering it was a few short comments in one small article, people are assuming way too much here.
Asking for more clarification without al the ranting and raving might be more productive.

Craig Zinkievich: The Klingon gameplay is going to be drastically different to the Federation gameplay. It's going to be a lot more focused on PvP; their advancement is a little bit different - it is not a full-on story-driven game like the Federation.

Craig Zinkievich: No, we'll be offering full-on character advancement: you will create a Klingon player, you will have his ship, he will level up. The content that they will be experiencing is a lot more focused on PvP - fighting the Federation, fighting House versus House within the Klingon empire. So it is a full-on character with advancement, with items, with bridge officers as well. So it's a lot more than the Monster Play.

All I see is that instead of a big long story tying most the Klingon PvE episodic missions together, is that there is a greater opportunity for PvP. Focused on PvP doesn't mean only PvP. Focused could easily just mean more opportunity and/or greater skill rewards.
More likely the Klingon PvE episodic missions are more of a series of shorter story arcs and individual missions than part of a long one.

[USS_Parallax]

It makes sense. I'd be interested to see if Cryptic can pull it off without something going horribly wrong.

[Jeck-Kar.Rathimon]

I think people might be overreacting a bit. He said that they would be more PvP oriented. He didn't say that would be the only thing.

Also, if you made both sides exactly the same, then the KDF would just be the Federation with different ships. There would be the illusion of a different approach, but in the end the game would end up being much the same.

I cast my vote for differences between the two factions because there are fundamental differences between them, and this drives gameplay if nothing else!

Agreed, no where in that interview was it stated that Klingons would have only PVP. Granted, they may have less PVE content than the Federation in favor of PVP, but for all we know, the Federation could have hundreds of PVE instances. Thus, the Klingons could have a good deal of PVE content to explore as well as the PVP content.

Besides, I am sure we will be able to have at least two character slots, so if we aren't satisfied with one faction's content, we can play the character from the other faction's content instead. Win/Win IMO. :D

[Faerlzress]

I dont mind being attacked by fellow Klingons, i just dont want it being random, or for no reason. If my House is odds with another, I'd expect be PvP flagged by some one in that other house(and vice versa). If Im attacked, in my mind it make sense...I may not like it, but it makes sense and its a reasonable aspect of the game that I'd accept as a consequence of my association with a House(pressumably of my choice).

But I'd be disappointed if Klingon ships can just randomly engage others...or worse, we get thses silly duels to the death by invitation. Klingons dont seem willing to waste ships on silly duels(they waste them in House clashes), they'll do it in person, they'll melee until one is unable to continue to fight, laugh, embrace, eat food and be merry, but serious fights to the death require much more than some silly and random duel invite.

It isn't going to be free for all pvp.

I would guess the rewards in experience and rank for fighting Fed players in the neutral zone would be far higher than running around scanning planets and exploring. Focusing on PvP doesn't mean free for all.

[Liberty]

I think the focus of PVP in Klingons might be due to the Klingons not being much into exploration. Or at least this is implied by their lack of Science Ships in STO. Personally, I don't see why Kliingons couldn't explore just as much as the Federation. They would be exploring for different reasons however such as for new weapons or technologies to make themselves stronger. Although I can see Klingons being the main PVPers and antagonists, it does seem that they are a bit forced into the role. Klingons are not evil. Aggresive, yes. Territorial, yes. But not evil. Well.... Not all of them anyways. Heh.

I think they could of added a new way for Klingons to compete with the Federation by allowing the factions to compete for areas of space. Whichever faction is in control of that space would get access to whatever technological advances it has to offer. (Ship equipmet items.) or perhsps you could even include races. If a faction has that particular race homeworld in the Federation or Empire then those type of Bridge Officers could become available. Other than the straight ship vs ship combat there seems to be a very large lack of competition between the factions. Or rather, a large lack of need of competition. This doesn't seem to fit well considering that they are at war or in war time conditions.

[Eclipse1987]

after reading through 16 or so pages I have come to a few conclussions and intepritations:

1. I see no evidence that Klingon's will loose pve. all I saw was them having was more chances to pvp.

2. We need more info or clarification befoe we can draw an accurate conclussion either way.

3. ppl like to and or have a tendancy to freak out, even when critical information nesscary to draw an accurate conclussion is missing, (much like the whole tutorial 'panic' earlier today)
when it would make more sense to get all the info first and THEN act accordingly.

[Talonsin]

I dont mind the Klingons being more PVP oriented, my fear is that in a rush to get the game out, they will produce more content for the Fed and leave us Klingons hanging with much less content and then just tell us to kill each other.

[Dext]

Well the latest info given is a bit confusing, but one thing is crystal clear. At least to me. This whole thing about making the Klingon experience more PvP oriented than the Federation experience is just plain silly. Both sides should be exactly the same in that regard. Both with an equal opportunity to PvP, or not, depending on what the player feels like doing on any given day.

All this does is ensure it's a game with a bunch of people dissatisfied that there's not enough players of the other faction to PvP against.

Klingon's fight with in them self, fight with others so I do see why there more set for PvP thing. Face it that is there life style. War is there way of life. An they way Cryptic is doing it is the best way I can see it done.

[Dext]

I dont mind the Klingons being more PVP oriented, my fear is that in a rush to get the game out, they will produce more content for the Fed and leave us Klingons hanging with much less content and then just tell us to kill each other.

They have been working on both side at the same time we just have more info on one side then the other.

[fyreblayd33]

Klingon society hasent really been "united" they have always had infighting and stuff especially if a lot of them didnt like the current leadership.

Actually there is not as much in fighting as people assume. Remember that Klingon's think the greatest glory is dieing in battle for the good of the Empire.

When you see most of the in fighting is when the leader of the Empire dies. Then they are trying to find out who is the best warrior. Other than that there are just traitors. Klingon's are not as much the in fighters that everyone assumes. They often will fight but usually not to the death just to prove who is the better warrior then they will sit down and drink and tell tales of battle to one another.

[Loekii]

I dont mind the Klingons being more PVP oriented, my fear is that in a rush to get the game out, they will produce more content for the Fed and leave us Klingons hanging with much less content and then just tell us to kill each other.

It would be nice to get a rough estimate of how much less PvE content the Klingons will be getting.

They have been working on both side at the same time we just have more info on one side then the other.

This is incorrect from what I have seen mentioned by the Cryptic staff. They didn't start working on the Klingon content in earnest until this summer.

[piponolo]

Where did anyone say that they should be exactly the same? That's twice now people have waded into the thread and completely misrepresented the issue, whether intentionally or not.

It's not about making them the same.

It's about affording both the factions the same opportunities to participate in, or avoid, PvP content, and not having one faction perceived as being for PvPers and one faction perceived as being for PvEers. Because no matter what lip service gets paid to the issue, I think most people with any experience in this genre know that is precisely how it will be perceived by those looking at the game from the outside and contemplating whether or not to play it, and what faction to play if they do.

Thus we end up with all or most of the PvPers on one side, and pressuring everyone on their side to PvP and discouraging PvE play (which happens in every single PvP oriented game or server), and all the PvEers going to the other side and discouraging everyone on their side from PvPing. So in short order it becomes not a FvF conflict going on, but only internal duels between Klingon fleets. Making the elements that were supposed to be in the Neutral Zone and outlying reaches of space void of any players.

Pardon me wading. I should have read more posts. Let me re state:

I meant to say that if they aren't the same with their opportunities then I don't mind so much. Also I think that there will be plenty of PvP between factions. It would be awesome to use political savvy to come together and destroy Federation fleets!

[Draconianknight]

So here is a question for you guys stating that the Klingon faction should mainly based in PvP.
Which by the way is fine with me, but be careful what you wish for.
The Fed side is going to be more episodic, and PvE, exploration etc etc etc. just more of everything.
They have stated that while exploring you will get to meet new races and learn new skills or aquire Boff's and new tech etc etc. So here is the kicker, how does the Klingon faction aquire new goodies, do we in true Klingon fashion conquer the new races we find, are we even going to have PvE and be allowed to explore? Because if not, the only way to go and get it is to take it from the Federation. Which is fine with me, but I am not so sure the carebears are going ot like it.
As I said, carefull for what you wish for, you just might get what you dont expect.:cool:

[fyreblayd33]

So here is a question for you guys stating that the Klingon faction should mainly based in PvP.
Which by the way is fine with me, but be careful what you wish for.
The Fed side is going to be more episodic, and PvE, exploration etc etc etc. just more of everything.
They have stated that while exploring you will get to meet new races and learn new skills or aquire Boff's and new tech etc etc. So here is the kicker, how does the Klingon faction aquire new goodies, do we in true Klingon fashion conquer the new races we find, are we even going to have PvE and be allowed to explore? Because if not, the only way to go and get it is to take it from the Federation. Which is fine with me, but I am not so sure the carebears are going ot like it.
As I said, carefull for what you wish for, you just might get what you dont expect.:cool:

I think the Fedrats are forgetting another major part of this that will have them hurting later. If we Klingon's have to fight every time we play in PvP. I mean every time for everything we do we PvP. How do you think you will do in a fight against someone that has nothing but PvP practice every single day they play the game? We will know every little trick and tidbit there is to know about taking apart another ship. You will see entire fleets that know the battle drill inside and out and will go into a starfleet vs Klingon PvP zone at the top of their PvP game. You will be a tasty snack against all the battle hardened Klingon warriors we normally have to face.

In other words a Klingon having to fight a starfleet vessel will actually be like taking a break for us. For you it will be a tough battle to try and win.

[Hagon]

This means that yes, the Klingon side will have a bigger focus on PvP. Be this PvP vs the Federation players or against rival houses/guilds. I think I may actually repeat that... PvP between rival guilds!!!

They never asked us if we want to fight other Klingon guilds. I for one do not. I have absolutely no interest in fighting other Klingon fleets. To me it just sets things up to be too divisive among the Klingon faction. It simply doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me. The object of a good FvF game is one side to band together as a whole to defeat the opposing side. That's what makes good FvF game play so good. Not set things up so that one side is strife with infighting and bickering. To be frank, to me this whole thing is an absolutely stupid idea seemingly thought up by people with their heads up in some cloud somewhere completely out of touch with the gamers they're supposed to attract to play their game.

[Krix]

Iam just worry about new Factions like Romulans or Cardassians.....
I mean .. are they all then mainly based in PVP? Should be the Federation the only one Faction with the most focus on PVE Content?

I hope not.

[JacobFlowers]

Well the latest info given is a bit confusing, but one thing is crystal clear. At least to me. This whole thing about making the Klingon experience more PvP oriented than the Federation experience is just plain silly. Both sides should be exactly the same in that regard. Both with an equal opportunity to PvP, or not, depending on what the player feels like doing on any given day.

All this does is ensure it's a game with a bunch of people dissatisfied that there's not enough players of the other faction to PvP against.

I have not gone through this whole thread. And I'm sorry, I had not noticed this thread before. But Hagon, I understand what you are saying, and I completely agree with you.

Based off the most recent interviews at trekmovie.com and eurogamer.com I created this thread, one of the points being directly related to what you wrote:
9 Things Cryptic Should SERIOUSLY Consider (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=28357)

On a side note, with the recent successful launch of Aion, I stumbled upon an interview from one of the producers. NCSoft opted to delay their North American launch significantly to get a finished and polished product out the door. I think Cryptic should do the same. If you would be in favor of a delayed launched as opposed to rushing it out the door, you may want to voice there:
Encouragement from Aion's Release (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=28244)

Forcing Klingon players to do a Federation tutorial, and even not really having two 'true' and fully developed factions is entirely unfair to those players who want to roll with honor. I fee badly for them. I really hope this is rectified. It isn't game breaking... but it breaks my heart that they are not opting to allow STO to reach its greatest potential. Sad.

[JacobFlowers]

Klingon's fight with in them self, fight with others so I do see why there more set for PvP thing. Face it that is there life style. War is there way of life. An they way Cryptic is doing it is the best way I can see it done.

We all KNOW this already. Its the fact that Klingons will be a 'specialized' faction and that they won't get to experience mcuh of the good things the Fed side has such as strong PvE content, Story Arcs, and Non Combat related stuffs (since PvP is inherently combat related).

They COULD be developing an AMAZING Game.

Two factions? Been there done that. Look at WoW, WAR, AoC, you name it.

Two factions that have different game play dynamics? AMAZING, COOL!

Sure Klingons operate differently that the Federation. A planet that the Federation might open diplomatic relations with, the Klingons just as well might conquer. THERE YOU GO, great PvE content there, you could make vast stories with this.

An alien ship aids a klingon ship in distress or in battle? Because of this honorable action, the klingons can engage them peacefully. OR, you could choose to act dishonorably, and destroy them too! Can't you see the potential?

[Lt.Renak]

Like I said in another thread: to be a Klingon as a Star Trek Fan does not mean one is PvP Fan in MMORPGS. Klingons have more than great potential for story focused and roleplay MMO experience. Klingons have got more religion, more tradition and some of the best Star Trek Episodes ever are Klingon stories.

I am very upset that it sounds like we will be forced to play pvp as Klingons and that we don' t get story based experience. I want to play PvP when I want to I want to level up the way I like to: without pvp! Yes I was planning to play pvp but first I wanted to explore the world and experience good story lines together with my friends. I am member of a Klingon PvE Fleet with about 50 member and now we are thinking about restructuring our fleet because every one of us is afraid to be forced to play pvp and that we do not have the same episode based and story line based content as the Federation does have.

Yes, we knew there is more pvp for Klingons and we were looking forward to it but AFTER doing all the pve stuff we were thinking what is the same for Federation AND Klingons.

Why does Cryptic think players who like the Klingons are nothing more than Space Orcs with nothing more in their head then fighting other players?

It was quite clear right from the beginning that most players wanted to play Federation. But after this decision from Cryptic I am afraid only a few players of them who wanted to play Klingon will play this great roleplay race as mainrace now.

Sad, very sad for all of us Klingons who wanted to build a real pve roleplay Klingon fleet. The way Klingons are handeled in Star Trek Online seems to be highly unfair to me

[Norvo]

I think Klingon PVP leveling is great news, and I don't even like PVP that much. Every MMO character I've created I leveled up basically the same way. Going to the same zones, the same quests, doing certain areas because they have better rewards or they are easy to get to.

PVP leveling would be a breath of fresh air. I don't know what kind of endgame STO will have, but if Klingons can do PVE dungeons or raids and whatever the Federation can, that's fine by me.

Within Trek lore, KLingons haven't changed much in centuries. They do the same things, and their culture is stagnant. They don't value science, or exploration. They value combat, and honor, and bloodwine. Yes, you can get that through PVE combat, but it matches PVP perfectly.

I would like some PVE content though.

UNlocking Klingons is also not a big deal. Starting zones are nice, but they can give you Klingon backstory in the early Federation starting experience too. And nothings stopping them from giving freshly created Klingon characters a wad of skill points equivalent to what you would have earned by playing a Klingon for a few hours.

[Lt.Renak]

I think Klingon PVP leveling is great news, and I don't even like PVP that much. Every MMO character I've created I leveled up basically the same way. Going to the same zones, the same quests, doing certain areas because they have better rewards or they are easy to get to.

PVP leveling would be a breath of fresh air. I don't know what kind of endgame STO will have, but if Klingons can do PVE dungeons or raids and whatever the Federation can, that's fine by me.

Within Trek lore, KLingons haven't changed much in centuries. They do the same things, and their culture is stagnant. They don't value science, or exploration. They value combat, and honor, and bloodwine. Yes, you can get that through PVE combat, but it matches PVP perfectly.

I would like some PVE content though.

UNlocking Klingons is also not a big deal. Starting zones are nice, but they can give you Klingon backstory in the early Federation starting experience too. And nothings stopping them from giving freshly created Klingon characters a wad of skill points equivalent to what you would have earned by playing a Klingon for a few hours.

I have nothing against the possibility of leveling by playing pvp. You like to? Do it! Great! But I don' t want to be forced to do it. There should be more or less the same options for every faction in the game. It is said by Craig earlier pvp is free choice everytime in the game. But what is said now does not sound so.
What if I need to play pvp because there are not enough missions? And on the other hand: is it fun just to play random missions while I see my friends playing Federation having much more fun than me because of their storylines and episodes? That sounds not fair to me. Maybe now we know why there is so much more said about Federation than Klingons. What do we now about Federation until now: storyline, episodes, exploring, all ships and all the fine pve content I hoped for and I was waiting for AND PvP in the Neutral Zone if it is wanted.

What do we have for Klingons until now? Two ships one of them not the best I've ever seen (Vo'quv, ugly, not fine designed) NO storyline, NO episodes just fighting Federation, fighting Klingons. Does that sound like fair handeling for you?

[DevilHawk]

I

Within Trek lore, KLingons haven't changed much in centuries. They do the same things, and their culture is stagnant. They don't value science, or exploration. They value combat, and honor, and bloodwine. Yes, you can get that through PVE combat, but it matches PVP perfectly.




Yes, Klingon Warriors value combat, honor and bloodwine. However, the Klingon civilization is full of culture. Restraunts, Opera, Politics... (very complicated politics mind you), they have farmers and merchants, children who play in the fields. Dancers and actors, and even an ocasional half decent physician.

There is also a segment to their culture that dispises the KDF and the warrior way of life...

Personally, I could care less how Cryptic forces me to level my Klingon.. but know this, for every hardship that every Klingon suffers. I guarantee you a Federation officer will be on these forums crying that their gameplay was ruined at the hands of a Klingon Veteran. I look forward to reading those posts.

[Lt.Renak]

Yes, Klingon Warriors value combat, honor and bloodwine. However, the Klingon civilization is full of culture. Restraunts, Opera, Politics... (very complicated politics mind you), they have farmers and merchants, children who play in the fields. Dancers and actors, and even an ocasional half decent physician.
.

Well said.

[Norvo]

I have nothing against the possibility of leveling by playing pvp. You like to? Do it! Great! But I don' t want to be forced to do it. There should be more or less the same options for every faction in the game. It is said by Craig earlier pvp is free choice everytime in the game. But what is said now does not sound so.

I actually agree with everything you said. But what excites me is the prospect of a full leveling experience by PVP. You can finally PVP level in WOW now, but its not the same. It sounds like PVP in STO will get you not just skill points and bridge crew and however they give you new ships, but also your ship equipment, Batleths, rifles, and maybe your ground combat "kits," or currency along with upgrades to it all just for battling players. That sounds fantastic, like getting two games in one.

And the comments about PVP free choice is a bit misleading. Either there will be enough KLingon content to level your character through PVE content, or PVP is a free choice, as long as you play the Federation.

Leveling PVP Is great for rolling alts, because battling players ensures a somewhat new experience. Yes, for your first character, that might be not so much fun, and If you were really looking forward to Klingon PVE verses federation at low levels, that would be bad. BUt I think if they have endgame PVE dungeons versus the borg, the tribble planet, evil Federation/Romulans/rival Klingon houses, etc, for Klingon players, I would be satisfied.

What do we have for Klingons until now? Two ships one of them not the best I've ever seen (Vo'quv, ugly, not fine designed) NO storyline, NO episodes just fighting Federation, fighting Klingons. Does that sound like fair handeling for you?

All this is true. I thought maybe they were holding back on Klingon content because, say, there will be fewer Klingon Scientists and Engineers, and they wanted to get Federation right and balanced, before they tinker with the Klingon ships and skill trees to make them more warlike. But this makes sense too.

I imagine Klingon ships will be just as configurable and varied as Federation ships (I think they mentioned Ships/parts from the Orions, Nausicaans and Gorn) and there's no reason to assume that the Vo'Quv look is the look of all ships of its class. After seeing some of the wild stuff they've done to the Miranda class, anything is possible.

I'm not that miffed about the lack of a Klingon storyline though. Simply because the culture doesn't value knowledge and advancement. An authentic klingon lore storyline would be "battle opposing klingon house, battle federation/romulans/cardassians, drink bloodwine, honor dead, avenge the dead, duel klingons in hand to hand combat for honor and glory" and you can pretty much get that through pvp.

The only thing you're really missing that couldn't be done very well through pvp is things like Find The Sword of Kahless type quests.

[Norvo]

Yes, Klingon Warriors value combat, honor and bloodwine. However, the Klingon civilization is full of culture. Restraunts, Opera, Politics... (very complicated politics mind you), they have farmers and merchants, children who play in the fields. Dancers and actors, and even an ocasional half decent physician.

All true. I don't think that's enough to get a PVE leveling experience though. Delivering fresh Gagh to the Klingon restaurant on DS9 is not very honorable. They would probably even have to take skill points away from you for completing the mission. :)

the "half decent physician" remark does make me wonder how they'll balance Klingon PVP for duels, etc... Surely a "Tactical" Klingon will be better at combat than an engineer or biologist.

Personally, I could care less how Cryptic forces me to level my Klingon.. but know this, for every hardship that every Klingon suffers. I guarantee you a Federation officer will be on these forums crying that their gameplay was ruined at the hands of a Klingon Veteran. I look forward to reading those posts.

no doubt. :) I imagine all the hard core pvpers would gravitate to the klingons.

[Lt.Renak]

I'm not that miffed about the lack of a Klingon storyline though. Simply because the culture doesn't value knowledge and advancement. An authentic klingon lore storyline would be "battle opposing klingon house, battle federation/romulans/cardassians, drink bloodwine, honor dead, avenge the dead, duel klingons in hand to hand combat for honor and glory" and you can pretty much get that through pvp.

The only thing you're really missing that couldn't be done very well through pvp is things like Find The Sword of Kahless type quests.

I respect your opinion though it is not mine and I am glad for you that you are so excited about the way Klingons are handeled in STO. And I agree that more (more not only!) pvp is a great choice for Klingons.

But it feels for me like we have seen completely different Klingon Episodes in Star Trek. I remember a lot of Klingon Episodes without "every time" fighting and there would be more than enough material for good storylines and episodes for Klingons in STO.
Yes, fighting is a important part of the Klingon culture but also religion, culture politics and honor is. And honor is so much more than just fighting to me.

As DevilHawk said, too: the Klingon Culture is much more than just fighting. In my opinion there is no need and for the most no desire to be be forced to play pvp just because they (and I of course) love Klingons. They want to give more PvP to Klingons? Great! But they should not forget the players who are finally Star Trek fans. And most Star Trek Fans I know, never mind they love Federation, Klingons, Romulans or Ferengi, love Star Trek because of the good stories and not the battles. And what most Star Trek Fans want to do in STO in my opinion is to experience a good story based MMORPG nevermind they are Klingons or Federation players.

I think there really is need for Cryptic to clear this situation and explain to all Klingon Fans what exactly they can await or not as soon as possible because all we can do atm is to speculate what is meant behind the words: "much more pvp". They should think about the Klingon PvE Fleets and give the chance to restructure Fleets if it is needed.

[slingbladez]

Norvo just because klingons like combat does not mean that combat has to be settled through PvP means. The same combat could be accomplished against computer klingons and federation ships.

[Norvo]

I respect your opinion though it is not mine and I am glad for you that you are so excited about the way Klingons are handeled in STO. And I agree that more (more not only!) pvp is a great choice for Klingons.

Yeah, I would definitely like PVE content, but unlike many, I think the PVP focus is an indication that they put a lot of thought into the game, not that they are cutting corners.

And, when I think of PVP, I think of battlegrounds. I'm okay at them, but In arena combat, I'm just awful. :)

But it feels for me like we have seen completely different Klingon Episodes in Star Trek. I remember a lot of Klingon Episodes without "every time" fighting and there would be more than enough material for good storylines and episodes for Klingons in STO.

True, but Combat was the main thing: the whole Worf-Mogh-Duras-Gowron-Sisters of Duras thing was all klingon v Klingon combat. And then you had DS9's war with the federation and Cardassians and Dominion.

The Klingons may have been manipulated, but you don't need much story to explain leveling by PVP combat to players. Its klingons being Klingons. There were more or less peaceful episodes with the Clone of Kahless and sword of Kahless, but not many. And Characters like the Metaphasic shield Scientist were shunned by the Empire.

And most Star Trek Fans I know, never mind they love Federation, Klingons, Romulans or Ferengi, love Star Trek because of the good stories and not the battles. And what most Star Trek Fans want to do in STO in my opinion is to experience a good story based MMORPG nevermind they are Klingons or Federation players.

This is certainly true too. Although MMO stories are pretty bad. This looks to be much better from the federation side at least, particularly if they integrate your Bridge officers as robust characters and persistent quest givers.

At any rate, Qa'Pla! :)

[slingbladez]

Norvo Klingon's for love combat doesn't automatically mean that combat is PvP, the same combat objectives could be accomplished through PvE means.There is no difference in the Klingon canon between a federation ship crewed by a player or by a computer, it's still a federation ship we have to kill.

Cryptic is going to have federation kill Klingon which can be played by other players or by the computer. Some people are saying cryptic should only force them to kill the computer version of Klingon in missions. For PvP they also say cryptic should just allow them to go to the NZ whenever they want.

Cryptic is going to have Klingons kill Klingon/federation which can be played by other players or by the computer. Some people are saying cryptic unlike the federation should force us to kill the player versions of each faction for a lot of our missions. For PvE we'll get less content because they'll be forcing us to kill each other for content.

To me this distinction makes no sense because canon for both factions could be settled through PvE means but people assume because we are Klingon that we should PvP instead. I want robust PvE and to PvP at my leisure. I don't want to be forced to PvP just because i like Klingons.

[DanSeale]

IMHO:

1. It is inappropriate to categorized ANY player from EITHER faction as a result of their view on how to ENJOY the game. This goes for players who enjoy Klingon or Federation.

2. I personally find that the term "carebear" and it's interpritation or implication as to either good or bad often depoends upon it's context. Some times it is unquestionably aimed at making "carebears" being lesser players without the ability to "really play the game" ... thus often "dumbing down" the game or its contient simply to gain a larger audience.

3. Trying to develope a game that shows partiality to either PvP or PvE is a mistake. This tends to polarize the game AND the community. When that happens it will also saverly divide the community, wheather it was intended or not.

Note: IMHO this is one of the most important aspects of the game development: contient. It takes more time, and it takes a lot of testing, and it also takes a very UNbiased development team as well as honest review of all aspects of the PvP and PvE arenas. The game MUST be balanced. This is without question the toughest part of the game. This one aspect will challange Cryptic like no other part of the game. YET this is very important. BOTH factions need to be an important part of both PvE and PvP. IF EITHER side is left out of either part of the game then the community suffers.

For example: in PvP would the Klingons prefer a walk in the park if there are few Federation players who show up because the Federation is viewed as carebears who have not taste for PvP ... thereby no balance in the game where Federation ships are concerned. If Klingons feel that it is an insult for players to be less than "real" PvP gamers who "own" the game and thereby insult others who enjoy PvE ... what kind of game are these folks really wanting developed (EvE ?)

Additional note: IMHO these are philisophies that should not reflect STO. I don't believe for one moment that Cryptic is moving in that direction. I do believe that a balanced game for both factions is what they have in mind. Until the game is released I will reserve judgement as to the value of the final product. A balanced game for both factions for BOTH PvP and PvE is very important.

These are my views ... and my opinions only. They are not intended to be aimed at anyone.

[cocoa-jin]

Within Trek lore, KLingons haven't changed much in centuries. They do the same things, and their culture is stagnant. They don't value science, or exploration. They value combat, and honor, and bloodwine. Yes, you can get that through PVE combat, but it matches PVP perfectly.



Thats the narrow minded and uninformed misconceptions that the Klingon experience has to fight against. This is the vew points many of us who want to play Klingon fear will permeate the STO Klingon experience, content, dvelopment, etc, almost at the exclusion of all the other major and in-depth aspects of the more complete and well rounded "actualu" Klingon experience.

We shouldnt pidegon holed into one facet of existance, the Klingon content in game should not only allow for the Klingon experience to be expressed is such a limited fasion.

Its time we put away the whole "dumb fighter" stigma of the Klingon experience and portray them across the full spectrum and diverse perspectives that they represent. Klingons are warriors, but also merchants, artisans, politicians, diplomats, damn good scientist, exceptional engineers, talented intellectuals, romantics, etc.

PvP as a way to rank up for Klingons is fine...provided it does properly. It needs to make sense, it needs to be model consistently. Lets not make it a random clubbing scenerio, but all it to be based on a thoroughly modeled political dynamics. Dont have me feel like Im just randomly looking for seals to club, give me purpose, cause, and reason for my in-fighting PvP. Give me a sense of honorable and duty bound engagements against my brethren...not random violence, not blood lust to see another hull in ruin, not just some mindless and purposless means of ranking up.

The option of being some less combat oriented discipline needs to be added for the Klingons...something where ranking up doesnt have to be as combat oriented. Klingon scientist search, research and study the same things Fed scientist look for. Klingon explorers seek all the same things Fed explorers seek out(even if the Empires contact, relations and diplomacy may vary significantly from tha of the Feds).

[JoJimGregory]

Watch what happens when groups of friends come to try STO on launch day. They plan to play Klingons. They're on ventrilo, chatting it up. They play the Federation tutorial, and it's really cool. A few of them start to suggest, "Hey, let's just play Federation. This is pretty cool!"

Mark my words, the Klingon Defense Force in STO just received a near fatal death blow.

Don't believe me? Okay, that's cool. But consider this. How many fewer players would WoW have today if they had launched with Horde being devoid of meaningful PvE quest content and instead were mostly just PvP? Yeah, I don't know the answer either, but I would suggest it might be a whole lot less than the 11 million they currently boast.

The only upside for the Klingons will be super short queue times for PvP battlefield style instances, if they have any such mechanic in STO.

[Lt.Renak]

Watch what happens when groups of friends come to try STO on launch day. They plan to play Klingons. They're on ventrilo, chatting it up. They play the Federation tutorial, and it's really cool. A few of them start to suggest, "Hey, let's just play Federation. This is pretty cool!"

Mark my words, the Klingon Defense Force in STO just received a near fatal death blow.

Don't believe me? Okay, that's cool. But consider this. How many fewer players would WoW have today if they had launched with Horde being devoid of meaningful PvE quest content and instead were mostly just PvP? Yeah, I don't know the answer either, but I would suggest it might be a whole lot less than the 11 million they currently boast.

The only upside for the Klingons will be super short queue times for PvP battlefield style instances, if they have any such mechanic in STO.

fully signed

[The.Grand.Nagus]

Watch what happens when groups of friends come to try STO on launch day. They plan to play Klingons. They're on ventrilo, chatting it up. They play the Federation tutorial, and it's really cool. A few of them start to suggest, "Hey, let's just play Federation. This is pretty cool!"

Mark my words, the Klingon Defense Force in STO just received a near fatal death blow.

Don't believe me? Okay, that's cool. But consider this. How many fewer players would WoW have today if they had launched with Horde being devoid of meaningful PvE quest content and instead were mostly just PvP? Yeah, I don't know the answer either, but I would suggest it might be a whole lot less than the 11 million they currently boast.

The only upside for the Klingons will be super short queue times for PvP battlefield style instances, if they have any such mechanic in STO.

It really blows my mind how a company who has made 2 MMOs doesnt realize things like this. Unless of course, they do realize it, and simply want 99% of the playerbase to be Fed.

[PatrickTX1960]

Well you still haven't, because that's not what I said. I said they should have the exact same opportunities for PvP, or not to PvP.

I don't really understand what it is you said myself. From what I've seen both Federation and Klingons will have the opportunity to PvP each other certainly, but I can't imagine having the exact same opportunities to do so. If that were the case, the Federation would be in a state of near anarchy with Starfleet ships fighting each other all over the place because of some contrived slight. The ships wouldn't be multi-species and would be factionalized by planet or internal alliance, totally destroying what the Federation is all about to begin with. I don't think the Federation has been switched over to the Mirror Universe version.

The Klingons have historically and perpetually been in a fight for power with different houses forming temporary alliances to bring the most powerful leaders to lead the Empire to victory as a whole. When faced with an external threat, it's been quite evident that even then the Klingons seek to manipulate things to their benefit, even allying with a sworn enemy to gain power (re: House of Duras and the Romulans). Nothing even remotely like that exists openly in the Federation. Certainly I can see some sort of political intrigue but nothing on the scale of full-scale civil war.

Maybe you'd like to clarify exactly what you mean by the "same" opportunities for PvP? I think Fed vs. Klingon over a Neutral Zone setting or just plain open warfare is about all the PvP the Federation should expect. The Klingons would have that as well as keeping an eye on their back for that ambitious subordinate ready to knife them and move up, or for an opposing house interfering in their affairs. Far more challenging PvP than what the Federation would experience and definitely not for the timid player. Definitely different playstyles and objectives. I don't want carbon copy factions with nothing different than an avatar and a name. That's not Star Trek.

Captain Krud

[Krix]

Just two Questions:

For what did we need a Klingon Faction? Did we need other Factions then the Federation?

It looked like already that the most Players are on Federation side.... now iam more then sure that this gonna happen .

Every Player who enjoy to make PVE ,Quests and PVP aswell must stay on Federation side.

[KL0k]

one question nobody seems to ask (or i didnt see it, cause i didnt read the whole 20sites):

is it possible, that the klingon-factions pvp-driven content could be handled that way, that the klingon players are the badguys on the starfleetcaptains missions?
ever thought about that, and how much immersive that could become?

[DevilHawk]

It really blows my mind how a company who has made 2 MMOs doesnt realize things like this. Unless of course, they do realize it, and simply want 99% of the playerbase to be Fed.

DING DING DING!!!! We have a winner here!

First of all, the people over at Cryptic have never been pro pvp. Its just not in their blood. It would be 100% easier for them if everyone just played a single faceted Fed pve game. Kinda like ummm.... City of Heros?

It was suggested near the beginning of their aquiring the license for STO that Cryptic look over the combat and gameplay of Interplay's Klingon Academy. Wich, granted... wasn't a p2p mmo, but was a great example of a decent space combat game.

One of the things about that game that was nice is that it was an open sand box. You could play whoever you wanted from the start. The players were left to develop fleets/houses and the fighting could be faction on faction, faction vs faction, or the combination of both.

All Cryptic really needed to do was to provide a basic storyline for each playable faction. Tailor the UI's for each faction and then release players into an open sandbox. Let them deside how the unvierse is run... Eve for example is an example of this done with success. But no... Cryptic has to force the player base to play "their" own egotistical views of the IP that we all obviously view differently. And if you don't think our views differ, just look at a thread asking who your favorite captain was.

Just give the players the tools... give universal basic storyline content.. as in provide the planets, the backdrop, and then let us decide what will happen in their universe. Keep it Simple S.

I'd apologize for the rant, but in all reality, Cryptic Devs need a huge wake up call. Yes, I am still thankful that they picked up the ball where Perpetual dropped it, but no... they are not living up to expectations by any means. All that is going to happen here is that they will develop yet another lackluster ST IP title, where there could have been GREATNESS. Sure it will get the base sales, the players that are starved for the IP and a sci fi mmo, it wont however come even close to what the potential of this IP could offer to the gaming community.

Sorry Cryptic, but thats the way I see it. Once ya learn this game isn't about you, and that it is about the community as a whole, then and only then will you have a massive hit on your hands

`Devil Hawk.

[Archangelwoghd]

Dear Cryptic,

Do not underestimate the StarTrek fans. They will make or break this game. Painting klingons as warmongers is a MAJOR mistake. Klingons are not just a plot device for PvP, they have a very deep and rich culture. Give the Klingons everything you have given the Federation.

Please.

[syberghost]

Well the latest info given is a bit confusing, but one thing is crystal clear. At least to me. This whole thing about making the Klingon experience more PvP oriented than the Federation experience is just plain silly. Both sides should be exactly the same in that regard. Both with an equal opportunity to PvP, or not, depending on what the player feels like doing on any given day.

All this does is ensure it's a game with a bunch of people dissatisfied that there's not enough players of the other faction to PvP against.

Make up your minds, folks; do you want this game to be innovative and try new things, or do you want it to be WoW with phasers?

[PatrickTX1960]

I haven't the time to read through the thousands of previous posts on the subject so I'll just post my own opinion on what I THINK PvP will be like (or at least what I hope it's like):

Federation: This is supposed to be a multi-cultural and species ALLIANCE. If Federation ships go around shooting each other up in PvP, this game dies immediately for me. I don't want to see "The Federation Civil War" take place. Frankly it's just a dumb idea and against everything associated with Star Trek. I think PvP should be rare, but automatic in cases of contact with an opposing Player faction (such as the Klingons initially). If there's a war on, then you either run away or fight, regardless of whether it's a player or computer-generated ship. If there's going to be a period of ramp-up to open warfare, then there's already a mechanism for that---the Neutral Zone. You enter this area and you're automatically a PvP target. You don't want the risk, don't enter it and keep doing your exploration or freight runs. For those simply not interested in PvP at all, then either stay away or implement some sort of emergency reinforcement call to send in a Starfleet rescue force (AI of course). Oh, and you can always hit that warp drive button and run away.

Klingons: This is the graduate level of PvP to me. However, I don't think that everything should be PvP, depending on how they implement the house/faction/alliance capability inherent in Klingon politics. There should be a "neutral" place, such as Imperial starbases or Kronos where no house-to-house combat is allowed. Houses should have some sort of faction rating as to who is hostile or not. In your own territory, you should be pretty safe. Discounting the infrequent subordinate assassination attempts, your own House should have a code that prevents anything other than mutually consented duels. However, when encountering a hostile House, the PvP switch is fully engaged. Likewise, when encountering a hostile non-Klingon ship crewed by another Player, the PvP switch is "on". Stabbing an opponent in the back during combat against another hostile force is certainly part of the Klingon experience and you should be watching your back at all times in that case.

Captain Krud

[Loekii]

It really blows my mind how a company who has made 2 MMOs doesnt realize things like this. Unless of course, they do realize it, and simply want 99% of the playerbase to be Fed.

Well it could be that what Craig is describing is much more subtle than some think.

For example, it could simply break down like this:

FEDS

90% standard PVE Content
10% Exploration Content (ie Exploration quest, missions, etc)

KLINGONS

90% standard PvE Content
10% PvP Based Content (ie PvP quests, missions, etc)


With the NZ PvP being considered 'shared' content between the two.

Thus the FEDS have more PvE content, and the KDF have more PvP content, but both have a good chunk of PvE content.

[Loekii]

Make up your minds, folks; do you want this game to be innovative and try new things, or do you want it to be WoW with phasers?

I want it to be FUN - which means FUN to play on the KDF.

[Tribbler]

Well it could be that what Craig is describing is much more subtle than some think.

For example, it could simply break down like this:

FEDS

90% standard PVE Content
10% Exploration Content (ie Exploration quest, missions, etc)

KLINGONS

90% standard PvE Content
10% PvP Based Content (ie PvP quests, missions, etc)


With the NZ PvP being considered 'shared' content between the two.

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Thus the FEDS have more PvE content, and the KDF have more PvP content, but both have a good chunk of PvE content.

Now where is your source of information derived from *poke* :D

[syberghost]

that word is childish, to say the least. and to be completly honest, says much more about the person using it than whoever their talking about.

You don't even see the irony in your post, do you?

[Loekii]

Now where is your source of information derived from *poke* :D
No need, as I am not stating it as fact, but rather my opinion/guess.

That is what I mean. It is fine to state opinion, so long as you do not present it as fact. Not everyone is up to speed, so it can just blurs the lines for them.

[JacobFlowers]

DING DING DING!!!! We have a winner here!

First of all, the people over at Cryptic have never been pro pvp. Its just not in their blood. It would be 100% easier for them if everyone just played a single faceted Fed pve game. Kinda like ummm.... City of Heros?

It was suggested near the beginning of their aquiring the license for STO that Cryptic look over the combat and gameplay of Interplay's Klingon Academy. Wich, granted... wasn't a p2p mmo, but was a great example of a decent space combat game.

One of the things about that game that was nice is that it was an open sand box. You could play whoever you wanted from the start. The players were left to develop fleets/houses and the fighting could be faction on faction, faction vs faction, or the combination of both.

All Cryptic really needed to do was to provide a basic storyline for each playable faction. Tailor the UI's for each faction and then release players into an open sandbox. Let them deside how the unvierse is run... Eve for example is an example of this done with success. But no... Cryptic has to force the player base to play "their" own egotistical views of the IP that we all obviously view differently. And if you don't think our views differ, just look at a thread asking who your favorite captain was.

Just give the players the tools... give universal basic storyline content.. as in provide the planets, the backdrop, and then let us decide what will happen in their universe. Keep it Simple S.

I'd apologize for the rant, but in all reality, Cryptic Devs need a huge wake up call. Yes, I am still thankful that they picked up the ball where Perpetual dropped it, but no... they are not living up to expectations by any means. All that is going to happen here is that they will develop yet another lackluster ST IP title, where there could have been GREATNESS. Sure it will get the base sales, the players that are starved for the IP and a sci fi mmo, it wont however come even close to what the potential of this IP could offer to the gaming community.

Sorry Cryptic, but thats the way I see it. Once ya learn this game isn't about you, and that it is about the community as a whole, then and only then will you have a massive hit on your hands

`Devil Hawk.

Klingon Academy was one of the best ST games. It goes up there with ST 25th Anniversary.

But yes, for some reason Cryptic folk were never keen on PvP. PvP stunk like manure in CoX (personal experience) and from what I've heard, PvP is pointless and was seemingly added as an after thought in Champions.

I don't mean to slam them... but I'm not ALL THAT excited about 'customization this, customization that'. Having my own personal Federation Hotrod to roam the galaxy in, isn't as important to me as deeply and meaningly gameplay that allows me to play in a fun and well developed manner with other people.

But due to 'time constraints' and a 10 million dollar bonus if they launch the game before spring 2010... I can say with confidence, that it will launch without our best hopes and dreams, and they will hopefully build upon it afterwards.

I only hope STO isn't scarred by horrible reviews the way CO was.

Dear Cryptic,

Do not underestimate the StarTrek fans. They will make or break this game. Painting klingons as warmongers is a MAJOR mistake. Klingons are not just a plot device for PvP, they have a very deep and rich culture. Give the Klingons everything you have given the Federation.

Please.

Agreed. I'm disappointed that they would use the Klingons as a plot device in the first place, in pitting two DECADES OLD ALLIES against each other.

Lame.


Well it could be that what Craig is describing is much more subtle than some think.

For example, it could simply break down like this:

FEDS

90% standard PVE Content
10% Exploration Content (ie Exploration quest, missions, etc)

KLINGONS

90% standard PvE Content
10% PvP Based Content (ie PvP quests, missions, etc)


With the NZ PvP being considered 'shared' content between the two.

Thus the FEDS have more PvE content, and the KDF have more PvP content, but both have a good chunk of PvE content.

At the risk of sounding uncouth...

This SUCKS.

I was hoping STO could be so much more than THAT. :eek:

[DanSeale]

Well it could be that what Craig is describing is much more subtle than some think.

For example, it could simply break down like this:

FEDS

90% standard PVE Content
10% Exploration Content (ie Exploration quest, missions, etc)

KLINGONS

90% standard PvE Content
10% PvP Based Content (ie PvP quests, missions, etc)


With the NZ PvP being considered 'shared' content between the two.

Thus the FEDS have more PvE content, and the KDF have more PvP content, but both have a good chunk of PvE content.

Loekii: first of all I understand that your statement is not implicating a "quote" ... and that your statement is speculation ... that said: MAN I hope this is not right at all. That would be a horrible mistake. Players on BOTH factions should be afforded the ability to excell in BOTH PvP and PvE.

This one concpet MUST get through to who ever is making the final decisions. Wheather that someone be within the structure of Cryptic or Atarii ... or whom ever it might be. This game really does have a huge potential with a larger audience than just a few thousand regulars. I personally want to see this game go over in a really BIG way. IMHO if it DOES ... then it will be arround for several years !

[Loekii]

Loekii: first of all I understand that your statement is not implicating a "quote" ... and that your statement is speculation ... that said: MAN I hope this is not right at all. That would be a horrible mistake. Players on BOTH factions should be afforded the ability to excell in BOTH PvP and PvE.

This one concpet MUST get through to who ever is making the final decisions. Wheather that someone be within the structure of Cryptic or Atarii ... or whom ever it might be. This game really does have a huge potential with a larger audience than just a few thousand regulars. I personally want to see this game go over in a really BIG way. IMHO if it DOES ... then it will be arround for several years !

I think it is just not translating properly.

I am talking about the breakdown of Content, not the % of gameplay.

If a Fed player wants to PVP all the time, they can go and play in the PVP zones. There wont be crafted PVP content like what the KDF has. And if a KDF player wants to just 'explore', they wont be getting the same content quality as a Federation Players.

As for who ever makes the final decision, I think it still is a factor of money and resources, rather than a 'simple decision'. If the Company does not have the money, they cannot just make a decision to spend more money.

[KL0k]

one question nobody seems to ask (or i didnt see it, cause i didnt read the whole 20sites):

is it possible, that the klingon-factions pvp-driven content could be handled that way, that the klingon players are the badguys on the starfleetcaptains missions?
ever thought about that, and how much immersive that could become?

*quoting myself cause got ignored*

[DanSeale]

I think it is just not translating properly.

I am talking about the breakdown of Content, not the % of gameplay.

If a Fed player wants to PVP all the time, they can go and play in the PVP zones. There wont be crafted PVP content like what the KDF has. And if a KDF player wants to just 'explore', they wont be getting the same content quality as a Federation Players.

As for who ever makes the final decision, I think it still is a factor of money and resources, rather than a 'simple decision'. If the Company does not have the money, they cannot just make a decision to spend more money.

yeah .. I agree with what you are syaing . It's the old time = money debate. I stirl rather suspect that the decision to use the Feds as the only tutorial was probably made by someone outside of the group of folks we know here on the forums. Most of them here are pretty cool with stuff ... really.

Also ... I pretty well guessed you were discusion game contient as a matter of what would be available for the players to be able to have access to. Just the same, there really needs to be a lot of PvP contient. Having a lot of PvE is good ( don't missunderstand) ... BUT PvP is imortant as well. I know I'm kind of an odd duck on this matter (PvP) ... BUT if PvP servers were all that was available for the SFC series .. and there were so many groups that thoroughly enjoyed it TRUST me PvP is a good thing.

Me, personally I like BOTH PvP and PvE.

All that aside IMHO if you really want a balance game where players are not looking at PvP or PvE as to determine which faction they will be playing, then it would be in everyones best interest to have at LEAST 35 to 40% of the contient PvP. ( yeah .. I just made up those numbers. But ya got to admit they do look pretty good)

:D

[Loekii]

I do not expect too much from PVP and PVP content from Crytpic to be honest. That is why I hope it makes up a very small percentage of the content.

I am not trying to insult them, nor be doom-n-gloom.

PvP is such an impossible beast to master, and many other companies with better experience with PVP have failed, so its more just that PVP content tends to fail. So the odds of Cryptic, who has not mastered PVP, succeeding where others have failed, it not a likely outcome, imo.

That is why I feel strongly that boht factions need strong PVE content, to make up for the shortcomings in PVP.

[Tamgros]

All Cryptic really needed to do was to provide a basic storyline for each playable faction. Tailor the UI's for each faction and then release players into an open sandbox. Let them deside how the unvierse is run... Eve for example is an example of this done with success. But no... Cryptic has to force the player base to play "their" own egotistical views of the IP that we all obviously view differently. And if you don't think our views differ, just look at a thread asking who your favorite captain was.

Just give the players the tools... give universal basic storyline content.. as in provide the planets, the backdrop, and then let us decide what will happen in their universe. Keep it Simple S.

This is the game I signed up for. I saw the Ask Cryptic from last august:

My question is whether the universe will be static. For example, if I log off World of Warcraft and then login a week later everything is pretty much still the same. Nothing has really changed. Will the world be dynamic in STO?

Zinc: The universe of Star Trek Online is shaped and changed by the actions of the players. The Federation and the Klingon Empire will be competing for influence and resources throughout the galaxy and players can influence the results through PvP battles and a system we're calling Competitive PvE.
The actions, victories and defeats of you and your faction will affect how the economy and history of Star Trek Online unfolds. Exploration is always happening – expect to see new planets and races discovered that were unknown the last time you logged in. Your actions could be the deciding factor on whether these new planets side with the Federation or the Klingons.
-- http://www.startrekonline.com/dev_blog/ask_cryptic_8-25-08

That's what brought me here...

It isn't entirely clear to me that some elements of this game won't be there. They definitely aren't selling this game at this point though, and they've already taken some elements out like Fleets building starships, starbases, and maybe even structures.

I'm hoping that territory and resource control will still be in the game, just the elements to it will keep expanding. But yeah, I'm worried as well. I don't want the gameplay I really enjoyed at PAX to be ruined by no depth to gameplay.

[bullhead2007]

Oh, I like the idea that the Klingon 'campaign' is different from the Federation. But I want to do exploration as a Klingon.

I want to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations...

AND CONQUER THEM!

Q'APLA!

I imagine they will (or at least can at some point) use the Genesis thing to generate worlds for the Klingon empire to conquer as opposed to explore. If I was a dev at Cryptic that's what I'd do ;p

[Replica]

I have to disagree with the OP. I think having the different sides have different focuses instead of "exactly the same" is brilliant. Why should the KDF side be just like the Fed side with a Klingon skin? Klingons running mercy missions? That would suck. The cultures are different so it should be a different experience.The Klingons would relish the idea of being "forced" to best their opponents in combat, THAT"S WHAT KLINGONS DO. If you want to explor and adventure then make a character who has the "mission: to explore strange new worlds; to seek out new life and new civilizations; to boldly go where no man has gone before." That's the Federation Experience, not the Klingon experience.

There will be plenty of Feds that jump into PvP frequently, I know I will. And if there isn't enough PvP from the Feds, then the Klingons can always have wars amongst themselves, and the PvP centric multigame clans out there would be fine with that.

The split style game has the potential to allow both PvP and PvE rock in one game, which is rare. The best PvP games usually have weak PvE and vice versa. By choosing seperate focuses Cryptic an make a much better game, and it meshes with the Star trek canon perfectly.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

I have to disagree with the OP. I think having the different sides have different focuses instead of "exactly the same" is brilliant. Why should the KDF side be just like the Fed side with a Klingon skin? Klingons running mercy missions? That would suck. The cultures are different so it should be a different experience.The Klingons would relish the idea of being "forced" to best their opponents in combat, THAT"S WHAT KLINGONS DO. If you want to explor and adventure then make a character who has the "mission: to explore strange new worlds; to seek out new life and new civilizations; to boldly go where no man has gone before." That's the Federation Experience, not the Klingon experience.

There will be plenty of Feds that jump into PvP frequently, I know I will. And if there isn't enough PvP from the Feds, then the Klingons can always have wars amongst themselves, and the PvP centric multigame clans out there would be fine with that.

The split style game has the potential to allow both PvP and PvE rock in one game, which is rare. The best PvP games usually have weak PvE and vice versa. By choosing seperate focuses Cryptic an make a much better game, and it meshes with the Star trek canon perfectly.

Once again, you are confusing "combat" and "pvp". They are NOT the same thing. PvP is one TYPE of combat, but it is not the ONLY type. PvE is combat TOO, so there is no reason Klingon players should be forced into just one type of gameplay. No one is saying that Klingons should be just like the Federation. The Federation story should be about "mercy missions", and the Klingon story should be about war. But once again, that has NOTHING to do with PvE or PvP, because they are BOTH combat.

[mrjohng]

I have to disagree with the OP. I think having the different sides have different focuses instead of "exactly the same" is brilliant. Why should the KDF side be just like the Fed side with a Klingon skin? Klingons running mercy missions? That would suck. The cultures are different so it should be a different experience.The Klingons would relish the idea of being "forced" to best their opponents in combat, THAT"S WHAT KLINGONS DO. If you want to explor and adventure then make a character who has the "mission: to explore strange new worlds; to seek out new life and new civilizations; to boldly go where no man has gone before." That's the Federation Experience, not the Klingon experience.

I agree that this would be a good idea. I don't really think that's what Cryptic is going to do, but it would be cool if they did. I think its much more likely that Feds will be doing medical supply delivery missions, while Klingons will be doing arms delivery missions, and such. More a slight difference in flavor, instead of a real difference in content. But, we shall see.

[Draconianknight]

I have to disagree with the OP. I think having the different sides have different focuses instead of "exactly the same" is brilliant. Why should the KDF side be just like the Fed side with a Klingon skin? Klingons running mercy missions? That would suck. The cultures are different so it should be a different experience.The Klingons would relish the idea of being "forced" to best their opponents in combat, THAT"S WHAT KLINGONS DO. If you want to explor and adventure then make a character who has the "mission: to explore strange new worlds; to seek out new life and new civilizations; to boldly go where no man has gone before." That's the Federation Experience, not the Klingon experience.

There will be plenty of Feds that jump into PvP frequently, I know I will. And if there isn't enough PvP from the Feds, then the Klingons can always have wars amongst themselves, and the PvP centric multigame clans out there would be fine with that.

The split style game has the potential to allow both PvP and PvE rock in one game, which is rare. The best PvP games usually have weak PvE and vice versa. By choosing seperate focuses Cryptic an make a much better game, and it meshes with the Star trek canon perfectly.

Discounting PvE, science and exploration for the Klingons is a mistake. The Klingon Empire was by canon out and about before the humans. And scouting out new worlds/resources is in the best interest of the Empire. The tatics used when a new race is encountered may be different than the Federation. But it needs to be there regardless.

[DanSeale]

Discounting PvE, science and exploration for the Klingons is a mistake. The Klingon Empire was by canon out and about before the humans. And scouting out new worlds/resources is in the best interest of the Empire. The tatics used when a new race is encountered may be different than the Federation. But it needs to be there regardless.

agreed...

Out of curriosity ... has any member of the Dev team indicated that the Klingons will be primarily PvP ... thereby ignoring the rest of the game contient for that faction.

Note: I'm not suggesting that anyone in this thread HAS made that statement. I'm just currious to know if we are all simply speculating, or if there has been statements that have illuded to that sort of a format.

[overlordthor]

Eurogamer: I see! And forgive my ignorance, but can I be a Klingon?

Craig Zinkievich: Yes! We plan on shipping with the ability to play as Federation and play on the Klingon side. The Klingon gameplay is going to be drastically different to the Federation gameplay. It's going to be a lot more focused on PvP; their advancement is a little bit different - it is not a full-on story-driven game like the Federation.

Yes, they did state it.

And it breaks my heart... ok, thats an exaggeration, but I really want something with story, not just hunting down other players.

[daviboi83]

i can see positives and negatives to this.

Obviously some people prefer pvp in online games and some people will prefer to story driven pve side of the game so it caters to a wider audience. I do think that this means that those who chose to be klingon will totally own the feds in pvp as they will have much more pvp experience.

We shall see i guess.

still can't wait for the release!

[PatrickTX1960]

Where did anyone say that they should be exactly the same? That's twice now people have waded into the thread and completely misrepresented the issue, whether intentionally or not.

It's not about making them the same.

It's about affording both the factions the same opportunities to participate in, or avoid, PvP content, and not having one faction perceived as being for PvPers and one faction perceived as being for PvEers. Because no matter what lip service gets paid to the issue, I think most people with any experience in this genre know that is precisely how it will be perceived by those looking at the game from the outside and contemplating whether or not to play it, and what faction to play if they do.

Thus we end up with all or most of the PvPers on one side, and pressuring everyone on their side to PvP and discouraging PvE play (which happens in every single PvP oriented game or server), and all the PvEers going to the other side and discouraging everyone on their side from PvPing. So in short order it becomes not a FvF conflict going on, but only internal duels between Klingon fleets. Making the elements that were supposed to be in the Neutral Zone and outlying reaches of space void of any players.

What I don't understand is why this is an issue? You can't have the exact SAME opportunities for PvP in the Federation as you do in the Klingon or Romulan Empires. If you can, please explain how I can assassinate my superior officer in Starfleet so I can take over the ship? Murder someone from another bloodline because of some slight that happeneed to my family generations ago?

PvP can (and I hope) will be present for everyone in the game. The galaxy of Star Trek is a dangerous place and if there is open warfare you can expect to be a target of an opposing player at some point depending on where you go. That doesn't mean you're at a disadvantage and have to engage.Those warp nacelles are there for a reason. I suspect that PvP'ers looking for an easy kill are going to be repeatedly disappointed at watching their targets warp out to safety. This is a good thing in my opinion and prevents the ganking aspect I think worries many people. PvP is a much more constant occurrence in the Klingon Empire and I expect personal duels, house-to-house conflicts and even backstabbing in the midst of a major battle to occur. That doesn't mean it always has to be that way. The Klingons exploration mission and first contact should have a decidedly martial nature to it---can this planet be exploited and how?

While the devs may have said there will be "less" PvE for the Klingons, that doesn't really mean anything without some clarification. Less proportionately to PvP? Yeah, I'd expect that since PvP would be more of a daily thing in the life of a Klingon. Less in total number of missions? Perhaps. The Klingons are surrounded by enemies and the effort seems to be on military conquest and resource acquisition. With perhaps some few exceptions, you simply cannot do the same missions as the Federation for geographical reasons if nothing more.

Without some further clarification of what it is you mean by the "same opportunities" I don't really understand what your objections/concerns are. I think that PvP will be present to all, but those opportunities will be different. If you want more PvP as a Federation player, hang out at the Neutral Zone. I'm sure you'll get all you want and more.

Captain Krud

[slingbladez]

What I don't understand is why this is an issue? You can't have the exact SAME opportunities for PvP in the Federation as you do in the Klingon or Romulan Empires. If you can, please explain how I can assassinate my superior officer in Starfleet so I can take over the ship? Murder someone from another bloodline because of some slight that happeneed to my family generations ago?

Can you explain why i can't assasinate a computer controlled officer? Why i can't murder a computer controlled klingon in a house war or blood feud? Why does combat among Klingons/Federation which can be accomplished through PvE means have to be PvP?


PvP can (and I hope) will be present for everyone in the game. The galaxy of Star Trek is a dangerous place and if there is open warfare you can expect to be a target of an opposing player at some point depending on where you go. That doesn't mean you're at a disadvantage and have to engage.Those warp nacelles are there for a reason. I suspect that PvP'ers looking for an easy kill are going to be repeatedly disappointed at watching their targets warp out to safety. This is a good thing in my opinion and prevents the ganking aspect I think worries many people. PvP is a much more constant occurrence in the Klingon Empire and I expect personal duels, house-to-house conflicts and even backstabbing in the midst of a major battle to occur. That doesn't mean it always has to be that way. The Klingons exploration mission and first contact should have a decidedly martial nature to it---can this planet be exploited and how?

I doubt they would make such an amateurish mistake as to let people warp out in PvP, Doing so would be exploited constantly leading to practically no one getting kills in PvP and infuriate anyone who participated in PvP. Klingons killing each other is certainly pretty prevelent in the empire but that doesn't mean they have to be player controlled klingons killing other player controlled klingons. It could just as easily be a klingon player killing a klingon controlled by the computer. Klingon PvE exploration would certainly be based more on conquering and taking new technologies by force instead of Starfleets passive exploration approach.


While the devs may have said there will be "less" PvE for the Klingons, that doesn't really mean anything without some clarification. Less proportionately to PvP? Yeah, I'd expect that since PvP would be more of a daily thing in the life of a Klingon. Less in total number of missions? Perhaps. The Klingons are surrounded by enemies and the effort seems to be on military conquest and resource acquisition. With perhaps some few exceptions, you simply cannot do the same missions as the Federation for geographical reasons if nothing more.

Zinc said our content will be alot more focused on PvP. I infer that it means we have the same amount of content it's just the % of our content that is based on PvP is alot higher, meaning we have less PvE. Given that he said the content will be "alot more focused on PvP" it will seem we will have alot less PvE content.


Without some further clarification of what it is you mean by the "same opportunities" I don't really understand what your objections/concerns are. I think that PvP will be present to all, but those opportunities will be different. If you want more PvP as a Federation player, hang out at the Neutral Zone. I'm sure you'll get all you want and more.

Federations PvP is an addition to their PvE content so they have plenty to do and they can PvP at their leisure. I really want to be a Klingon and do PvE and PvP at my leisure but it seems like our PvE is only an addition to PvP so we'll have a lot less PvE and be forced into PvP for missions if wewant the same amount content.

[JacobFlowers]

I think it is just not translating properly.

I am talking about the breakdown of Content, not the % of gameplay.

If a Fed player wants to PVP all the time, they can go and play in the PVP zones. There wont be crafted PVP content like what the KDF has. And if a KDF player wants to just 'explore', they wont be getting the same content quality as a Federation Players.

As for who ever makes the final decision, I think it still is a factor of money and resources, rather than a 'simple decision'. If the Company does not have the money, they cannot just make a decision to spend more money.

Okay, even if you are talking about the breakdown of content, that STILL SUCKS.

My goodness, that would just be AWFUL. We have had SO MUCH stupid combat in ALL OTHER MMO's. Star Trek is an IP that just BURSTS with opportunity to be different, and yet they are choosing the status quo. And I DOUBT heartily that the status quo is what will make STO special.

Innovation is what makes a game sparkle. 10% to Exploration, 10% to PvP or whatever. My goodness.

If this is so, I'm afraid STO won't have staying power for me. But I'll just wait and see. As it stands, i am certainly not learning towards plopping down 200-300 bucks for a lifetime sub. No sir!

This is the game I signed up for. I saw the Ask Cryptic from last august:


-- http://www.startrekonline.com/dev_blog/ask_cryptic_8-25-08

That's what brought me here...

It isn't entirely clear to me that some elements of this game won't be there. They definitely aren't selling this game at this point though, and they've already taken some elements out like Fleets building starships, starbases, and maybe even structures.

I'm hoping that territory and resource control will still be in the game, just the elements to it will keep expanding. But yeah, I'm worried as well. I don't want the gameplay I really enjoyed at PAX to be ruined by no depth to gameplay.

I am glad that you bring this up Tamgros.

Unfortunately, I should remind you, that the 'Ask Cryptic' that you quoted is over a year old. With this in mind, that information may very well be obsolete. My reasoning for even mentioning that, is because what is the majority of what we have been shown with this game? Combat. No other systems except Player Progression (NOT exciting) and Away Missions mechanics (again, not exciting).

Creating a dynamic world would be an incredible feat, it would make STO outstanding, separate from the rest of the MMO world, and would CERTAINLy make it different from the biggest MMO.

If they were developing this aspect of the game so heartily, wouldn't you expect to have been hearing about its depth and complexities all along?

It seems like they've spent most of their time creating backgrounds, planetary environments, and combat mechanics. What are we supposed to think.

I hope I am wrong, and I hope we can reasonably cling to that first 'Ask Cryptic August 2008' that you mentioned. THAT excites me. What we have been getting lately, what with 'unlockable' klingons, single faction tutorials, no reputation systems at launch, etc... are not exciting me.

[Zepath]

This is the game I signed up for. I saw the Ask Cryptic from last august:


-- http://www.startrekonline.com/dev_blog/ask_cryptic_8-25-08

That's what brought me here...

It isn't entirely clear to me that some elements of this game won't be there. They definitely aren't selling this game at this point though, and they've already taken some elements out like Fleets building starships, starbases, and maybe even structures.

I'm hoping that territory and resource control will still be in the game, just the elements to it will keep expanding. But yeah, I'm worried as well. I don't want the gameplay I really enjoyed at PAX to be ruined by no depth to gameplay.

I'm right there with you Tamgros ... it was those things and several others that brought me to this game.

Unfortunately I think they are running out of time.

That doesn't mean that stuff won't eventually be in the game, but it becomes a "chicken or the egg" scenario.

Those of us that are experienced at MMO's know that it can be (let's say) challenging to come into an MMO after its already been out 6 months or a year because of the lack of people to do content with.

Yet if you get in at launch, suffering through the growing pains, by the time they add a lot of this stuff, your character has progressed passed the content.

Now the immediate response by some is ... "just start a new char". Respectfully ... No.

Once I have my two mains for each faction ... I won't be looking back.

If this game doesn't have enough end content to keep my two mains busy, with me having a list of things I still need to do ... then there is absolutely no reason to even start additional characters.

And if I am kept busy, I don't have the time to start additional characters.

[RowdyDurango]

I plan on playing almost exclusively Klingon, If I HAVE to play PVP I guess I will learn to get better at it. But I really hope that when they say "more PVP based" That they are referring to the house/house combat.

So Ideally we would have the same game, but with the added House/House combat added and a little less of a story line maybe?

PVP is fun sometimes, But some days when I sign on im just not in the mood to get into a PVP fight! So I really hope were not forced into a 90% PVP game, thats just not nearly as fun as being able to PVP and PVE.

I guess we just have to wait and see right...... heres hoping!

[Faerlzress]

I plan on playing almost exclusively Klingon, If I HAVE to play PVP I guess I will learn to get better at it. But I really hope that when they say "more PVP based" That they are referring to the house/house combat.

So Ideally we would have the same game, but with the added House/House combat added and a little less of a story line maybe?

PVP is fun sometimes, But some days when I sign on im just not in the mood to get into a PVP fight! So I really hope were not forced into a 90% PVP game, thats just not nearly as fun as being able to PVP and PVE.

I guess we just have to wait and see right...... heres hoping!

Cryptic has never made a PvP heavy game. I would guess that the house conflicts and fighting the federation will be a primary focus though. And that gaining rank and experience may be more focused on PvP. That doesn't mean you won't be exploring and conquering new planets for their resources from the genesis engine.

I would also guess the house conflicts controlled situations like battlegrounds or neutral zone like areas. These areas might also be contention zones so you would go in and do missions there for your house against the other houses.

I'm sure you can login and just do some genesis exploration content or fight npc's. You can always login and poke around on a Fed officer for a change of scenery too.

[RowdyDurango]

Cryptic has never made a PvP heavy game. I would guess that the house conflicts and fighting the federation will be a primary focus though. And that gaining rank and experience may be more focused on PvP. That doesn't mean you won't be exploring and conquering new planets for their resources from the genesis engine.

I would also guess the house conflicts controlled situations like battlegrounds or neutral zone like areas. These areas might also be contention zones so you would go in and do missions there for your house against the other houses.

I'm sure you can login and just do some genesis exploration content or fight npc's. You can always login and poke around on a Fed officer for a change of scenery too.

See, when its put like that, it really dosent sound all that bad. Sometimes I just wonder if the guy being interviewed is just giving the wrong idea about some things, Just like the "Unlockable klingons" taking several hours when its really just the tutorial everyone has to go through :)

[Lt.Renak]

Cryptic has never made a PvP heavy game. I would guess that the house conflicts and fighting the federation will be a primary focus though. And that gaining rank and experience may be more focused on PvP. That doesn't mean you won't be exploring and conquering new planets for their resources from the genesis engine.

I would also guess the house conflicts controlled situations like battlegrounds or neutral zone like areas. These areas might also be contention zones so you would go in and do missions there for your house against the other houses.

I'm sure you can login and just do some genesis exploration content or fight npc's. You can always login and poke around on a Fed officer for a change of scenery too.

I really hope so, too. I had no problem with more pvp but I want to choose whether play pve or pvp leveling.

[Archangelwoghd]

I'm right there with you Tamgros ... it was those things and several others that brought me to this game.

Unfortunately I think they are running out of time.

That doesn't mean that stuff won't eventually be in the game, but it becomes a "chicken or the egg" scenario.

Those of us that are experienced at MMO's know that it can be (let's say) challenging to come into an MMO after its already been out 6 months or a year because of the lack of people to do content with.

Yet if you get in at launch, suffering through the growing pains, by the time they add a lot of this stuff, your character has progressed passed the content.

Now the immediate response by some is ... "just start a new char". Respectfully ... No.

Once I have my two mains for each faction ... I won't be looking back.

If this game doesn't have enough end content to keep my two mains busy, with me having a list of things I still need to do ... then there is absolutely no reason to even start additional characters.

And if I am kept busy, I don't have the time to start additional characters.



STANDS AND APPLAUDS !!

[Hagon]

What I don't understand is why this is an issue? You can't have the exact SAME opportunities for PvP in the Federation as you do in the Klingon or Romulan Empires. If you can, please explain how I can assassinate my superior officer in Starfleet so I can take over the ship? Murder someone from another bloodline because of some slight that happeneed to my family generations ago?

PvP can (and I hope) will be present for everyone in the game. The galaxy of Star Trek is a dangerous place and if there is open warfare you can expect to be a target of an opposing player at some point depending on where you go. That doesn't mean you're at a disadvantage and have to engage.Those warp nacelles are there for a reason. I suspect that PvP'ers looking for an easy kill are going to be repeatedly disappointed at watching their targets warp out to safety. This is a good thing in my opinion and prevents the ganking aspect I think worries many people. PvP is a much more constant occurrence in the Klingon Empire and I expect personal duels, house-to-house conflicts and even backstabbing in the midst of a major battle to occur. That doesn't mean it always has to be that way. The Klingons exploration mission and first contact should have a decidedly martial nature to it---can this planet be exploited and how?

While the devs may have said there will be "less" PvE for the Klingons, that doesn't really mean anything without some clarification. Less proportionately to PvP? Yeah, I'd expect that since PvP would be more of a daily thing in the life of a Klingon. Less in total number of missions? Perhaps. The Klingons are surrounded by enemies and the effort seems to be on military conquest and resource acquisition. With perhaps some few exceptions, you simply cannot do the same missions as the Federation for geographical reasons if nothing more.

Without some further clarification of what it is you mean by the "same opportunities" I don't really understand what your objections/concerns are. I think that PvP will be present to all, but those opportunities will be different. If you want more PvP as a Federation player, hang out at the Neutral Zone. I'm sure you'll get all you want and more.

Captain KrudGiving the "Klingon feel" to the faction doesn't have to = making Klingons fight amongst themselves. There's no need to force players playing the Klingon faction to PvP each other, thus creating bad feelings and derision among that faction's players. Imparting the Klingon culture can more than adequately be done via good story telling and the same kind of episodic game play that we all thought we all would be getting.

It's also a grave mistake to assume that all, or even most, of the people that do want, or will want, to play Klingon will want to PvP. Especially against their own faction. There's absolutely no reason to think that. I know I will not participate in PvP against fellow Klingon faction players. Ever. I am not a PvPer. I dabble in PvP, and always want that option there, but I primarily enjoy PvE content the lion's share of the time in any game I play. It's faction vs faction that I enjoy most. This game, up to this point, has been promoted as having an important faction vs faction element. That is what drew me to it. That is what drew a whole whack of people to it. That doesn't mean all I want to do is PvP either, since the competitive PvE has also been greatly promoted, and that certainly doesn't mean I want to tear apart my chosen faction by competing internally. I'm here to compete against Federation players, and that's all I'll compete against. Doing anything else simply works against that, and is a stupid thing to have going on in this type of GAME.

That there are a very very small number of people that plan on RPing Klingons that do want that kind of internal strife I have no doubt, but I am supremely confident that the vast majority of people here now that want to play Klingon faction don't want that, nor the vast majority of those that might come to play the game. I'm mostly confident of that because the vast vast majority of people that play these game DO NOT ROLE PLAY.

There's nothing wrong with giving a mechanic for fleets to duel, but give that mechanic to Fed fleets as well, and don't make it even remotely mandatory for either side.

[DanSeale]

Giving the "Klingon feel" to the faction doesn't have to = making Klingons fight amongst themselves. There's no need to force players playing the Klingon faction to PvP each other, thus creating bad feelings and derision among that faction's players. Imparting the Klingon culture can more than adequately be done via good story telling and the same kind of episodic game play that we all thought we all would be getting.

It's also a grave mistake to assume that all, or even most, of the people that do want, or will want, to play Klingon will want to PvP. Especially against their own faction. There's absolutely no reason to think that. I know I will not participate in PvP against fellow Klingon faction players. Ever. I am not a PvPer. I dabble in PvP, and always want that option there, but I primarily enjoy PvE content the lion's share of the time in any game I play. It's faction vs faction that I enjoy most. This game, up to this point, has been promoted as having an important faction vs faction element. That is what drew me to it. That is what drew a whole whack of people to it. That doesn't mean all I want to do is PvP either, since the competitive PvE has also been greatly promoted, and that certainly doesn't mean I want to tear apart my chosen faction by competing internally. I'm here to compete against Federation players, and that's all I'll compete against. Doing anything else simply works against that, and is a stupid thing to have going on in this type of GAME.

That there are a very very small number of people that plan on RPing Klingons that do want that kind of internal strife I have no doubt, but I am supremely confident that the vast majority of people here now that want to play Klingon faction don't want that, nor the vast majority of those that might come to play the game. I'm mostly confident of that because the vast vast majority of people that play these game DO NOT ROLE PLAY.

There's nothing wrong with giving a mechanic for fleets to duel, but give that mechanic to Fed fleets as well, and don't make it even remotely mandatory for either side.

quoted for accuracy ... and agreement !

[soas]

This has been restated, rehashed and all that, but I think we are jumping way to forward with assumptions.

All we know is Klingon are going to be more PVP oriented.

1. The key word is MORE not COMPLETELY PVP.

2. we know Klingon are going to have missions. No one said they would all be PVP. No one said the missions would be MORE PVP.

3. Klingons in cannon or more combative race, to make them mirror the federations would be a step back from that, plus make the faction less unique.
4. Klingons are going to have house PVP. Now with this stated, it does give the "more" some merit. Perhaps this is all or some of what they meant. The OP stated that the in house PVP is not part of his point, but I beg to differnt. PVP is PVP, and this would produce a larger PVP environment to the Klingons.

5. No one said the PVP had to be directly against the Federation.

seriously though 23 pages on one semi-abstract statement without actual proof or facts?

[Blackleg]

If Cryptic doesnt get a good PvP roling equal to other games it will be over soon.

Who pays for a story one player game every month when he can buy such games once and have fun for months or ages.

good PvP or PvE - Group content is the key for success if they fail here they are doomed like city of heros where the PvP was barely bad.

[Tribbler]

This has been restated, rehashed and all that, but I think we are jumping way to forward with assumptions.

All we know is Klingon are going to be more PVP oriented.

1. The key word is MORE not COMPLETELY PVP.

2. we know Klingon are going to have missions. No one said they would all be PVP. No one said the missions would be MORE PVP.

3. Klingons in cannon or more combative race, to make them mirror the federations would be a step back from that, plus make the faction less unique.
4. Klingons are going to have house PVP. Now with this stated, it does give the "more" some merit. Perhaps this is all or some of what they meant. The OP stated that the in house PVP is not part of his point, but I beg to differnt. PVP is PVP, and this would produce a larger PVP environment to the Klingons.

5. No one said the PVP had to be directly against the Federation.

seriously though 23 pages on one semi-abstract statement without actual proof or facts?

I know huh. Oh well, it does give everybody a nice place to hang out until a dev makes another comment that might alarm some people.

OH MY STARS! NO RIZA AT LAUNCH? But it was in the series!

What? DS9 is not ready? That does it!

What do you mean, The Vulcan NPC ears are not pointy enough? Non-canon!

Well you get the point. :)

[Elboulevardo]

lol nice tribbler...i agree...you can tell everyone that has serious issues with decisions/info released and post to the heavens about it are passionate about star trek and this game specifically...but its that same passion that can drive it into dust if people dont just take a step back

sometimes i wonder if people forget that the product isnt even on the field yet...its not even in official beta time yet...why are we getting so riled up?

patience, friends :)

[dir1987]

i can pve as a fed, and pvp as a fed

as a klingon i have less pve, and the option to fight people on my own side, guised as 'more' pvp


why would i now want to play as a klingon? i can get the same experiance as a fed with loads more?


as for the klingon feel = more infighting, wasn't most of the klingon infighting seen the the tv series caused by romulan intervention?
the klingons aren't stupid, ugly and smelly maybee, but not stupid

Giving the "Klingon feel" to the faction doesn't have to = making Klingons fight amongst themselves. There's no need to force players playing the Klingon faction to PvP each other, thus creating bad feelings and derision among that faction's players. Imparting the Klingon culture can more than adequately be done via good story telling and the same kind of episodic game play that we all thought we all would be getting.

It's also a grave mistake to assume that all, or even most, of the people that do want, or will want, to play Klingon will want to PvP. Especially against their own faction. There's absolutely no reason to think that. I know I will not participate in PvP against fellow Klingon faction players. Ever. I am not a PvPer. I dabble in PvP, and always want that option there, but I primarily enjoy PvE content the lion's share of the time in any game I play. It's faction vs faction that I enjoy most. This game, up to this point, has been promoted as having an important faction vs faction element. That is what drew me to it. That is what drew a whole whack of people to it. That doesn't mean all I want to do is PvP either, since the competitive PvE has also been greatly promoted, and that certainly doesn't mean I want to tear apart my chosen faction by competing internally. I'm here to compete against Federation players, and that's all I'll compete against. Doing anything else simply works against that, and is a stupid thing to have going on in this type of GAME.

That there are a very very small number of people that plan on RPing Klingons that do want that kind of internal strife I have no doubt, but I am supremely confident that the vast majority of people here now that want to play Klingon faction don't want that, nor the vast majority of those that might come to play the game. I'm mostly confident of that because the vast vast majority of people that play these game DO NOT ROLE PLAY.

There's nothing wrong with giving a mechanic for fleets to duel, but give that mechanic to Fed fleets as well, and don't make it even remotely mandatory for either side.

me minus the troll + some literacy = what he said XD

[Manta2015]

Cryptic is trying to make this being a space MMO with something for everyone, It makes sense to separate playstyles and not double the content for each side especially if they play out exactly the same way.

I'd say to give it a shot before criticizing the Klingon's to fight against other houses in civil wars. It's part of canon ~ let it go.


-Manta-

[fyreblayd33]

3. Klingons in cannon or more combative race, to make them mirror the federations would be a step back from that, plus make the faction less unique.
4. Klingons are going to have house PVP. Now with this stated, it does give the "more" some merit. Perhaps this is all or some of what they meant. The OP stated that the in house PVP is not part of his point, but I beg to differnt. PVP is PVP, and this would produce a larger PVP environment to the Klingons.

5. No one said the PVP had to be directly against the Federation.

seriously though 23 pages on one semi-abstract statement without actual proof or facts?

Ok I see a lot of people saying that the Klingon's like to fight each other all the time on here. Guess what they only fight house to house when there is:

A: The leader of the Empire is dead and they are trying to figure out who is going to lead the Empire.

B: There is one trying to over throw the leader of the Empire and have already tried to overthrow him through the council and failed. Then the Empire is broken into two sides. This will only happen when they are not at war with someone. The only time this happened in any of the series is when Gowron was about to be overthrown by a bunch of traitors that were working with the Romulans.

The problem with the system that they are suggesting is:

A: There will be less content for the Klingon's than for the Federation and this is not fair to the people that want to play Klingon's. You do not favor one side for a story and look down on the other side. When they say different we expected to take planets by force instead of the Federation trying to talk with them. We did not expect it to be less.

B: The game play on the Klingon side will degenerate into nothing but gank squads and you will see a break down of the Klingon's where no one wants to play them anymore because every place you go will be someone that just wants to kill someone elses game play. It happens in every game but usually there is not this type of thing happening within one faction.

C: As the Federation becomes more powerful from being able to advance faster because no one is getting in the way the Klingon's will fall further and further behind because of said gank squads. Also while the Federation is also getting more powerful by taking more and more stuff over we will get weaker. This is because we will have entire fleets that will not allow the progression of the Empire they will just attack who ever they see when they see them slowing down the rate that the Klingon Empire acquire resources. It has been said that the two sides will be competing against each other in this aspect of the game.

D: Lastly the thing that will be griped about the most and get the Klingon's hit with the nerf hammer to the point of unplayability because of the Federation. The Klingon's that will have to fight every single day will be so used to PvP that it will become what the game is about to them. They will know everything there is to know about their ships and how to use them against another player. The Federation players that will be mainly doing PvE unless they go into the wrong area will not be used to it and will go up against a far supperior PvPer just because of the way the game will be made. Then you will see them come here to the forums screaming to the Devs about how powerful the Klingon's are. They will not complain because we are just better from having to do it all the time wether or not we want to. Once the Devs hear so much of it they will nerf the Klingon's and they will keep doing it until we are so weak we can not play.


So as you can see there are a lot of reasons not to have this in fighting forced into a faction. It will in the long run turn into the end of the Empire and no one will want to play them except for the gankers. The Klingons are warriors not barbarians.

[Arsmajka]

Cryptic has never made a PvP heavy game. I would guess that the house conflicts and fighting the federation will be a primary focus though. And that gaining rank and experience may be more focused on PvP. That doesn't mean you won't be exploring and conquering new planets for their resources from the genesis engine.

I would also guess the house conflicts controlled situations like battlegrounds or neutral zone like areas. These areas might also be contention zones so you would go in and do missions there for your house against the other houses.

I'm sure you can login and just do some genesis exploration content or fight npc's. You can always login and poke around on a Fed officer for a change of scenery too.

My guess it would be something like Wows pvp quests, ie attacking a starbase and when the first shot is fired or just entering the vicinity of said base would flag you for pvp

[Kazzy]

The game isn't finished yet and no doubt will be constantly added to, so over time I'm sure the Klingon's will have plenty of pve eventually.

I like that Cryptic have made an attempt to replicate the Klingon's warrior nature by giving them more focus on pvp

[Loekii]

Cryptic has never made a PvP heavy game. I would guess that the house conflicts and fighting the federation will be a primary focus though. And that gaining rank and experience may be more focused on PvP. That doesn't mean you won't be exploring and conquering new planets for their resources from the genesis engine.

I would also guess the house conflicts controlled situations like battlegrounds or neutral zone like areas. These areas might also be contention zones so you would go in and do missions there for your house against the other houses.

I'm sure you can login and just do some genesis exploration content or fight npc's. You can always login and poke around on a Fed officer for a change of scenery too.

The thing is, that you can make a lot more PvE content than you can PvP content.

You can do say 200 Episodes of PvE content.

You can basically do about maybe 10 PvP senerios. After that, it becomes stale or dependant upon factors that you cannot control -- you cannot guarentee that there will Always be enough players to play the specific roles needed to foster in depth content. You basically have /Duel and /Battleground.

So PvP does not provide the same amount of content coverage as PVE.

Its like trying to replace a main Sail with a napkin.

[soas]

I know huh. Oh well, it does give everybody a nice place to hang out until a dev makes another comment that might alarm some people.

OH MY STARS! NO RIZA AT LAUNCH? But it was in the series!

What? DS9 is not ready? That does it!

What do you mean, The Vulcan NPC ears are not pointy enough? Non-canon!

Well you get the point. :)

LOL I hear ya.

[Loekii]

We do not really know what Cryptic's definition of a 'PvP-Centric' is.

It could basically mean that the Klingons play more like a faction from WARHAMMER, where there is a mixture of PvE and PvP.

[soas]

Ok I see a lot of people saying that the Klingon's like to fight each other all the time on here. Guess what they only fight house to house when there is:

A: The leader of the Empire is dead and they are trying to figure out who is going to lead the Empire.

B: There is one trying to over throw the leader of the Empire and have already tried to overthrow him through the council and failed. Then the Empire is broken into two sides. This will only happen when they are not at war with someone. The only time this happened in any of the series is when Gowron was about to be overthrown by a bunch of traitors that were working with the Romulans.

The problem with the system that they are suggesting is:

A: There will be less content for the Klingon's than for the Federation and this is not fair to the people that want to play Klingon's. You do not favor one side for a story and look down on the other side. When they say different we expected to take planets by force instead of the Federation trying to talk with them. We did not expect it to be less.

B: The game play on the Klingon side will degenerate into nothing but gank squads and you will see a break down of the Klingon's where no one wants to play them anymore because every place you go will be someone that just wants to kill someone elses game play. It happens in every game but usually there is not this type of thing happening within one faction.

C: As the Federation becomes more powerful from being able to advance faster because no one is getting in the way the Klingon's will fall further and further behind because of said gank squads. Also while the Federation is also getting more powerful by taking more and more stuff over we will get weaker. This is because we will have entire fleets that will not allow the progression of the Empire they will just attack who ever they see when they see them slowing down the rate that the Klingon Empire acquire resources. It has been said that the two sides will be competing against each other in this aspect of the game.

D: Lastly the thing that will be griped about the most and get the Klingon's hit with the nerf hammer to the point of unplayability because of the Federation. The Klingon's that will have to fight every single day will be so used to PvP that it will become what the game is about to them. They will know everything there is to know about their ships and how to use them against another player. The Federation players that will be mainly doing PvE unless they go into the wrong area will not be used to it and will go up against a far supperior PvPer just because of the way the game will be made. Then you will see them come here to the forums screaming to the Devs about how powerful the Klingon's are. They will not complain because we are just better from having to do it all the time wether or not we want to. Once the Devs hear so much of it they will nerf the Klingon's and they will keep doing it until we are so weak we can not play.


So as you can see there are a lot of reasons not to have this in fighting forced into a faction. It will in the long run turn into the end of the Empire and no one will want to play them except for the gankers. The Klingons are warriors not barbarians.

I see waht you mean on those but

A. is speculation because cryptic has not released info on it. Until its fully released, its only assumptions.

B. This is fully an assumption from other MMO experience. It does have some weight, but not much. We do not have enough information on which areas will support PVP, nor how to flag yourself or be flagged by it.

C. This is based of B. I personally feel that the cryptic is not going to allow PVP in areas to players will still be able to advave via PVE. PVP is much more player based, so in this aspect, it may or may not come down to one side greater then the other. As a player though, its up to us to test that. Even beta is not going to fully comprehend the impacts. A very good thought though, and worth our time to consider and monitor as the game progresses.

D,. AS for D, nerfing...... seriously. This has no merit in fact at all. Sure other MMo's have nerfed and are examples, but we need to give our cryptic team the shadow of the doubt and give them a chance to watch the game before crying out of nerfs.

Fyre really did hit the nail on the head though. A lot of these concerns are from what fyre listed. Good post mate.

[syberghost]

D: Lastly the thing that will be griped about the most and get the Klingon's hit with the nerf hammer to the point of unplayability because of the Federation. The Klingon's that will have to fight every single day will be so used to PvP that it will become what the game is about to them. They will know everything there is to know about their ships and how to use them against another player. The Federation players that will be mainly doing PvE unless they go into the wrong area will not be used to it and will go up against a far supperior PvPer just because of the way the game will be made. Then you will see them come here to the forums screaming to the Devs about how powerful the Klingon's are. They will not complain because we are just better from having to do it all the time wether or not we want to. Once the Devs hear so much of it they will nerf the Klingon's and they will keep doing it until we are so weak we can not play.


The devs have stated numerous times that it will be possible to advance in this game through PvP-only play. The Federation players who do a lot of PvP will include many players who do nothing but PvP, and I assure you they will be formidable adversaries.

[slingbladez]

This has been restated, rehashed and all that, but I think we are jumping way to forward with assumptions.

All we know is Klingon are going to be more PVP oriented.

1. The key word is MORE not COMPLETELY PVP.

2. we know Klingon are going to have missions. No one said they would all be PVP. No one said the missions would be MORE PVP.

3. Klingons in cannon or more combative race, to make them mirror the federations would be a step back from that, plus make the faction less unique.
4. Klingons are going to have house PVP. Now with this stated, it does give the "more" some merit. Perhaps this is all or some of what they meant. The OP stated that the in house PVP is not part of his point, but I beg to differnt. PVP is PVP, and this would produce a larger PVP environment to the Klingons.

5. No one said the PVP had to be directly against the Federation.

seriously though 23 pages on one semi-abstract statement without actual proof or facts?

1. They said "alot our content would be PvP oriented". It is more likely that overall the amount of content will be similar to federation so they don't complain about us having so much more content. The problem is that our content will be alot more PvP based so overall we'll have less PvE content.

2. "The content that they will be experiencing is a lot more focused on PvP". We aren't complaining that they will be all PvP we are complaining that overall we will have insufficient amount of PvE to keep those of us who aren't that interested in PvP busy.

3. We aren't saying make them like federation. Make our exploration content based more on conquering and stealing new technologies from the species we meet. Federation would be peaceful exploration trying to always be the good guys in the galaxy where we just want to kill people and take all their stuff. With that in mind we want the same amount of PvE content as federation.

4.Klingons will have house wars but that doesn't mean the all/vast majority of missions regarding house wars could be towards houses controlled by computer controlled klingons. If they have house war PvP content then we can do that on the side instead of being forced into it.

5.That's fine i don't mind the occasional house war against klingon fleets, i just don't want to be forced into it. I want to do House war PvP at my leisure. I also don't want them to tie a decent amount of our overall content into killing other player controlled klingons.

[Sinclair]

I have mixed feelings about the PVP-focused road that the Klingons are heading down.

On one hand, it makes sense as the Klingons have always been represented as warlike in Trek. On the other hand, it seems to limit the depth of PVE gaming experience for Klingons. Still the devs have said the Klingons will have their own path to develop. We'll have to see how it is implemented in game to know for sure if this is a good or bad thing.

The only other good I see coming out of this is that having one faction that is easier to jump into for PVP might allow better balancing. Someone said above that most polls show that a majority of players would play Federation. If that is the case, making it easier to get into PVP as Klingons may improve the head count of the Klingon empire in game, even if it is only for occassional PVPers who want to jump in and give it a go to take a break from the Federation.

[JacobFlowers]

This game, up to this point, has been promoted as having an important faction vs faction element. That is what drew me to it. That is what drew a whole whack of people to it. That doesn't mean all I want to do is PvP either, since the competitive PvE has also been greatly promoted, and that certainly doesn't mean I want to tear apart my chosen faction by competing internally. I'm here to compete against Federation players, and that's all I'll compete against. Doing anything else simply works against that, and is a stupid thing to have going on in this type of GAME.
gon faction don't want that, nor the vast majority of those that might come to play the game. I'm mostly confident of that because the vast vast majority of people that play these game DO NOT ROLE PLAY.

There's nothing wrong with giving a mechanic for fleets to duel, but give that mechanic to Fed fleets as well, and don't make it even remotely mandatory for either side.

I trimmed the original quote. But yes, I agree with Hagon's statements, and I plan on being a Federation player. It just seems that the whole list of 'not at launch' features seem to grow, even down to simple things like faction based reputation and global reputations.

It seems their deadlines are too tight to create the game I originally was excited about (namely, what was talked about in the August 2008 Ask Cryptic).

Sure, I'll still try it. But as I've said before, I'm no longer considering a lifetime sub. This is beginning to be too risky if it ends not being able to have great retention. The saturation of the MMO market is supreme, and I don't have the time or money to waste on a game that is sub par to the plethora of MMO choices that are already out there that ARE established and mature. I'm looking for a good game at launch, not something that is good enough at launch.

This has been restated, rehashed and all that, but I think we are jumping way to forward with assumptions.

All we know is Klingon are going to be more PVP oriented.

seriously though 23 pages on one semi-abstract statement without actual proof or facts?

We know a lot more than this Soas. People are concerned because we have been met more frequently than not with 'not at launch' even with basic features that don't make sense to add later, such as a reputation system global and faction as well as moral/ethical rating systems.

And you bring up a good point... 23 pages on all this. This whole fiasco broke out last thursday. Unless they were all asleep at their desks, or on a company Holiday, the folks at Cryptic had more than enough time to respond.

Sure, Rekhan gave a response, but it was deemed insufficient and pointing to bigger problems. Again... they have more than enough time to quell these sentiments. So this 23 pages is on account of their negligence (unless of course, they were all asleep at their desks, or on a company holiday, or God forbid they are all being held hostage by derelict blizzard employees).

I know huh. Oh well, it does give everybody a nice place to hang out until a dev makes another comment that might alarm some people.

OH MY STARS! NO RIZA AT LAUNCH? But it was in the series!

What? DS9 is not ready? That does it!

What do you mean, The Vulcan NPC ears are not pointy enough? Non-canon!

Well you get the point. :)

Again, these issues that people have been talking about are not trivial. And I am slightly offended that you would demean people's feelings on the subject matter at hand. I am not even wanting to be a Klingon player, and yet I am equally as disappointed as the most rabid of them.

This is NOT us complaining about Risa not being in at launch. This is in regards to legitmate concerns regarding that this game may end up being a 1.5 faction game at launch and not a full 2 faction game. Rekhan's very mention of 'due to time constraints blah blah blah' indicates to us they may very well be trying to rush this thing out the door. Doesn't that concern you? And don't you think this is a bigger issue than 'oh my stars, there won't be any bolian barbers at LAUNCH! /rage quit'. I feel it is not the same.

But yes, lets wait for the next dev comment... (if any even comes).

[KL0k]

This is NOT us complaining about Risa not being in at launch. This is in regards to legitmate concerns regarding that this game may end up being a 1.5 faction game at launch and not a full 2 faction game. Rekhan's very mention of 'due to time constraints blah blah blah' indicates to us they may very well be trying to rush this thing out the door. Doesn't that concern you? And don't you think this is a bigger issue than 'oh my stars, there won't be any bolian barbers at LAUNCH! /rage quit'. I feel it is not the same.

But yes, lets wait for the next dev comment... (if any even comes).

which is a possibility, we may have to live with.
the problem with that would be, that we dont have any influence on it, if that is the case.
because.. lets face it.. its a product of a company and not a fanmade sparetime project, so this could be an economical decision.
thing is, i wouldnt be surprised if thats whats behind all this and that a decision like that could be the death of it neither. how often did we played games that felt rushed and thought "oh my, if they had given it more time n effort this could have been a great game."

[Hagon]

which is a possibility, we may have to live with.
the problem with that would be, that we dont have any influence on it, if that is the case.
because.. lets face it.. its a product of a company and not a fanmade sparetime project, so this could be an economical decision.
thing is, i wouldnt be surprised if thats whats behind all this and that a decision like that could be the death of it neither. how often did we played games that felt rushed and thought "oh my, if they had given it more time n effort this could have been a great game."The frustrating thing is one just shakes their head in wonder at these companies that make the very same mistakes as companies that have clearly failed with their games, or are in real trouble with their games, because they started cutting corners too much to make some arbitrary release date. Maybe the decision is being made by the suits across the pond, but at some point someone should be able to push back and there's plenty of data to back them up when they do.

Unless of course some at Cryptic have bought into the whole "There won't be all that many that want to play Klingon" garbage. If that's the case, then they frankly deserve what they're going to get.

[andrewprofit]

Well the latest info given is a bit confusing, but one thing is crystal clear. At least to me. This whole thing about making the Klingon experience more PvP oriented than the Federation experience is just plain silly. Both sides should be exactly the same in that regard. Both with an equal opportunity to PvP, or not, depending on what the player feels like doing on any given day.

All this does is ensure it's a game with a bunch of people dissatisfied that there's not enough players of the other faction to PvP against.

I disagree. I think it is brilliant to make a war like people more pvp oriented and the feds more pve exploration oriented.

[slingbladez]

Unless of course some at Cryptic have bought into the whole "There won't be all that many that want to play Klingon" garbage. If that's the case, then they frankly deserve what they're going to get.

I have to agree that I'm worried they are cutting corners by saying we get more PvP content because they don't have enough time to give us as much PvE content (approx 1 week to make a full mission). The polls they have are just polling hardcore Trekkies which are heavily biased towards starfleet, so it's no wonder the polls also reflect this. The casual star trek fans and general gamers will make up much higher percentage then hardcore Trekkies. The casual fans and general gamers that i know are equally excited about both factions.

[indelible]

In-fighting between houses has ALWAYS been a staple element of the Klingon Star Empire, even at times of war. There are always houses at war and if it Cryptic are going to give players that multi-dimensional aspect to PvP I see no problem with that. The Klingons have always very much been about raging battles and glory etc. Why dilute that down? I think it would be a shame to lose such contrasts between the two factions in favour of linear faction setups with no depth or integrity.

Keep in mind that the ability to participate in House Wars and what you can do to your enemy in that conflict will probably be limited. I doubt very much whether they will allow players in one House to destroy players in another. It is more likely that they will be set up as War Games. I wouldn't be surprised if the Federation has War Games that act in an almost identical manner to House Wars for the Klingons.

It's really something that more companies should be brave about. The percieved differences between factions are usually quite shallow, limited to the look and feel rather than the core concepts. At least here we have an example of a studio attempting to draw out the differences between the two opposing factions and create something meaningful out of the conflict. One of the things about MMOs that is slowly dissolving is the idea of diversity. More hardcore players demand total dissolution of diversity so that balance is paramount. However, World of Warcraft - a game that over the years has systematically destroyed the diversity of the two factions in favour of mirroring them against one and other - has proven that a lack of diversity and difference between factions does not create balance. It's just that - as far as the hardcore are concerned - this diversity must be held responsbile for the lack of balance, when in actual fact the elements you should be questioning - namely the mathematics - are things you know little to nothing about. THAT is why you are concerned with this Hosue War system and THAT is why your argument is pretty much redundant.

There are variables that will be put in place to make sure that such a system won't effect the balance of a population. For example, the Federation may have some form of war game system in place, similar to House Wars but with less emphasis placed on it in keeping with the feeling of the Federation. Populations may be micro-controlled in a similar way to the handling of Aion's population (who's servers are all pretty much 50/50 right now). Etc etc so on and so forth.

However, if Cryptic are rushing this then they are making a dire mistake. Bluntly, Crytic are an over-hyped studio. Their track record to date is not impressive and the arrogance that they display on a dialy basis is not becoming of a studio that is no where near the top of its game. City of Heroes/Villains was not a success, despite certain parties post-humously declaring it a niche game (even though it was sold as a mainstream game when it launced). Champions Online is going down the same road right now from what I can tell. The likely hood that STO will be anything more than a niche title - despite the clear intention to make it a mainstream title - is little to none. I have little to no confidence in Cryptic and their ability to pull this one off. However, I do not envy their position. Some of the elements of STO look like they may well be quite entertaining... and this is one of them. I have considered that Champions may well have simply been a, "we've got loyal fans from CoH so let's throw this one out there for them," kind of title and that they are putting a lot more effort into STO. However, the proof is in the pudding and until the title is releases (or I have had a chance to play it) I will be a vocal and blunt critic when it is called for. However, in this situation it is not actually needed. The choice - in my opinion - is a good one so long as they implement it and balance it correctly.

[slingbladez]

I disagree. I think it is brilliant to make a war like people more pvp oriented and the feds more pve exploration oriented.

Klingons could kill lots of people from other klingon houses, federation but they would be controlled by computer players instead of players. Being war like doesn't mean that their target needs to be controlled by a player. They could just as easily be war like towards player controlled ship.

Their PvE could be more conquering,house war based then the federations exploration based PvE. Each faction could play differently without forcing klingons to do PvP

[Hagon]

Sooo you think it's brilliant to tell people that love the Federation and desire to play a member of it a great deal, but also love PvP and want as much of it as the Klingons have, that they won't get as much if they play Federation so they better go play Klingon?

You think it's brilliant to tell people that love the Klingons and desire to play one a great deal, but really don't like PvP very much (if at all), and have been looking forward to having Klingon based episodic content that is equal to, and as important as, what was going to be included for Fed players, that they'll have to play Federation if they want that?

That, and you think it's brilliant setting up the Klingon faction to be in a state of constant turmoil and internal bickering and strife when their focus should be on competing with the opposing faction?


Oooooook

Obviously our definitions of "brilliant" are very very different.