Immature OP Kinneas ruining IRC

[UrQuanKorAh]

I would like to bring it to Cryptic's attention that one of the volunteer OP's in the official STO who goes by the nickname of "Kinneas" has been acting improperly with the modicum of power he's been given.

His arbitrary and undefined set of words he calls "swearing" seem to be targeted most frequently at people who disagree with him. He has banned a productive member of the channel for using the word "damn." I don't think a child has been scolded by their parents for using this word since the turn of the millenium, but it aparently verboten if you use this terrible word if you're not on Kinneas' good side.

He also banned at least 4 uers for "sassing" which involved simply questioning him about his actions. None of these users were being disruptive in any way, and in fact were engaged in intelligent discourse with fellow IRCers.

This activity seems to occur almost exclusively when Cryptic employes are not present to witness these actions.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

Valid complaint, wrong place to report it. PM a Dev or send a message to one of them on IRC when their chatting.

[Ziktur]

Yes, this is the wrong place to really do this. One has to PM first and then if no response or action, then bring it to the attention of the community, since, well...without us...like all other things, this whole place and game is meaningless.

But I do agree though. As in real life, conversation happens and it moves around. If this was in real life, in a real life place, we'd never see this type of action take place. But alas, this is the internet and Tyranny can exist on the internet without moral guilt.

But really, nobody knows tyranny till they live under the law of The Worm. God Emperor of Dune!

[UrQuanKorAh]

I don't think the light of public record is anything that should be feared by the just. PMs can simply be swept under the rug and is designed to hide problems, not address them directly. The person being address is also, apparently, not a Cryptic employee and I'm not talking about Forum posts, so rule #19 does not pertain.

[Demyk]

Whilst I agree there should be some sort of public airing of this sort of thing - this is not the place, and it has been made clear that all the rules pertain to both the forums and the irc channel.

[benvanlaarhoven]

"ruining IRC" he made it a better place :D

[Cruis.In]

im not surprised. since kinneas has always been an *******.

and kissed the ass of devs since interplays starfleet command.

now hes here to ruin the community of another game.

hear hear kinneas!

[Cruis.In]

also make another channel and let everyone go there, and leave kinneas in his channel all by himself.

[Zionner]

Kinneas has been with STO for YEARS...

He has done more for this community than all of the people complaing here have combined!

On top of this, he is also an extremely polite, active and is a supportive member of this community... Not only this, but he has been (along with Zach and a few others) The Driving force behind HF, which was for a long time the only source of information for STO. Also he has been following PE and Cryptic around to several diffrent conventions ect, got some sort of reportable information from it, and returned it so people like YOU can get as much information as possible.

You people never cease to amaze with your ability to moan about anything! Next your going to be complaining because they didnt put the title of the STO channel exactly the way you want it!

Get over yourselves and find somewhere else to moan about absolutely nothing!

[Evil_Custard91]

I would like to bring it to Cryptic's attention that one of the volunteer OP's in the official STO who goes by the nickname of "Kinneas" has been acting improperly with the modicum of power he's been given.

His arbitrary and undefined set of words he calls "swearing" seem to be targeted most frequently at people who disagree with him. He has banned a productive member of the channel for using the word "damn." I don't think a child has been scolded by their parents for using this word since the turn of the millenium, but it aparently verboten if you use this terrible word if you're not on Kinneas' good side.

He also banned at least 4 uers for "sassing" which involved simply questioning him about his actions. None of these users were being disruptive in any way, and in fact were engaged in intelligent discourse with fellow IRCers.

This activity seems to occur almost exclusively when Cryptic employes are not present to witness these actions.

well I think you will find that you were trolling on IRC which is an infraction of the rules. You were calling hard core gamers "no lifers" and then you called Kinneas a "power tripping little twirp". so you broke the rules, you were punished and now you are having a hissy fit. PM a Dev if it makes you feel better and stop QQing to us.

Have a nice day ^^

[USS_Parallax]

I've seen a lot of imperfect stuff from HF but really it's nothing evil. And as for cursing... I don't like it. I don't do it myself. You don't have to either. You lost me completely there.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

I've seen a lot of imperfect stuff from HF but really it's nothing evil. And as for cursing... I don't like it. I don't do it myself. You don't have to either. You lost me completely there.

I tend to agree. However, I dont think we can really consider any words that were used in the ST movies as impropper :o

[Rota]

Kinneas has been with STO for YEARS...


I am not taking sides. I merely wish to point out that a "seniority" argument is invalid. Being around longer does not automatically make one "better" and more important than the new guy.

New people can be as smart or smarter than vets, and old vets can be just as dumb as the noobest noob on the planet.


I have not witnessed Kinn abusing power, but I am also not on irc all the time. So I don't know if he's in the wrong or not.

As a young-smart guy I have run into the seniority argument all the time. It just rubs me the wrong way.

[ravenkind2]

Kinneas has been around pretty much since day 1. He's never done anything malicious to anyone. I've never seen Kinneas do anything, but give back to the STO community. I'm sure he had a valid reason for doing what he did. As I hear it they had it coming and had been warned multiple times in the past.

[Zionner]

I was not making a point on just the fact that he has been here for years..I was saying that during that time he has done so much for this community, and deserves more than some random guy complaining about him with absolutely no basis for that fact

[Cormoran]

and now, i bring you the past six months of IRC in three easy to read sentances!

Waaaaah! We don't like that cryptic isn't modding IRC.
Waaaaaaaah! Cryptic mods are never on.
Waaaaaaaaaaaaah! We don't like the mods cryptic chose.

can't please everybody i suppose, why cryptic even bother with an irc channel is beyond me.

[terranova3y2]

You people crack me up sometimes. If you aren't complaining about one thing, its another.

Kinneas has done pretty much nothing but good things for this community with his involvement with Hailing Frequency and his involvement in both Gamesurge and Coldfront IRC channels. He is a volunteer OP and he was picked for a very good reason.

If he banned someone I believe he did it for good reason and if he didn't I'm sure something will be done about it.

Get over it.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

and now, i bring you the past six months of IRC in three easy to read sentances!

Waaaaah! We don't like that cryptic isn't modding IRC.
Waaaaaaaah! Cryptic mods are never on.
Waaaaaaaaaaaaah! We don't like the mods cryptic chose.

can't please everybody i suppose, why cryptic even bother with an irc channel is beyond me.

So I guess that would make you:

Waaaaah! I dont like other people complaining!

Complaining is still complaining, even if its about other people complaining :o

[The.Grand.Nagus]

Get over it.

You first ;)

[USS_Parallax]

If it makes you feel better I'll tell you that I beat out Kinneas in the Comic Contest. ;)

I'd do it again too! :D

[Ziktur]

I have logs to prove how things went wrong and which side is in the light. I have contacted the official people already with those said logs and about what happened in this situation! Yay or IRC lurking! lol

[Loekii]

I frequent the IRC, and have never seen Kinneas be abusive, nor strive to ruin the atmosphere.

Now I was not on when the OP's claims occurred, but I would like to see the official logs, rather than hearing one person's 'side' of the story.

[Cormoran]

So I guess that would make you:

Waaaaah! I dont like other people complaining!

Complaining is still complaining, even if its about other people complaining :o

nah, more; LOL! people are stupid.

[terranova3y2]

You first ;)

It's okay dude, we know you don't like the IRC channel because you can't join in on the fun during work hours.
No need to ruin Kinneas' good name because of that.

[USS_Parallax]

The only thing off the top of my head that I can think of....


Once some guy from HF (forgot which one) came here and made a giant whine thread about them not being treated special. STO had been ignoring them for a short time apparently. That was annoying, not evil. I haven't seen abused power either but I only go on IRC once in a long while and HF like once a month.


And again, cursing is good enough of a reason for punishment.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

nah, more; LOL! people are stupid.

Its always funny how people think the definitions change just because it applies to them. If other people talking about something they dont like is complaining, then when you talk about something you dont like(other people complaining) then its also complaining :D

[The.Grand.Nagus]

It's okay dude, we know you don't like the IRC channel because you can't join in on the fun during work hours.
No need to ruin Kinneas' good name because of that.

Hey, I havent said one thing about the guy. I'm just saying, if your going to give other people advice("get over it"), you should take your own advice :o

[The.Grand.Nagus]

And again, cursing is good enough of a reason for punishment.

It depends on what was said. Like I said earlier, if its a word used in a ST movie, we cant really call if "offensive", since this is a ST game.

[UrQuanKorAh]

well I think you will find that you were trolling on IRC which is an infraction of the rules. You were calling hard core gamers "no lifers" and then you called Kinneas a "power tripping little twirp". so you broke the rules, you were punished and now you are having a hissy fit. PM a Dev if it makes you feel better and stop QQing to us.

Have a nice day ^^

I never called hardcore gamers "no lifers", but we were infact discussing the amount of time that some people have to invest in playing an online game, as opposed to more "casuals" and how it's been stated as one of STO's goals as to even the playing fields between these disparate types of games.

And I didn't resort to calling Kinneas a "power tripping little twirp" until he kicked and banned 3 people who hadn't even said ANYTHING.

We all know that just PMing will let this issue be completely ignored.

[Cormoran]

Its always funny how people think the definitions change just because it applies to them. If other people talking about something they dont like is complaining, then when you talk about something you dont like(other people complaining) then its also complaining :D

You might want to check that yourself nagus, i was making a comdeic observation of IRCs history within sto. you want to call that complaining, then, well, LOL! :p

[terranova3y2]

Hey, I havent said one thing about the guy. I'm just saying, if your going to give other people advice("get over it"), you should take your own advice :o

So you're trolling then?

Theres nothing for me to get over, it's just sad to see people try and take down a good guy because they don't see eye to eye. Similar things happened before and that resulted in a network change for the channel.

[Drexxus3d]

Kinneas touched me in my special place :(

Not really, but this kind of whine should be sent in PMs not plastered all over the forums. And yeah calling an op a twirp or some other such nonsense will probably get you banned, just saying. Whatever happened to common sense?

[Loekii]

It depends on what was said. Like I said earlier, if its a word used in a ST movie, we cant really call if "offensive", since this is a ST game.

Actually, the rules of the forum and the IRC are not affected by the dialogue in the series or films.

I have seen people think that the rules are subject to their own personal interpretation, rather than understanding that rules are subject to the interpretative of Cryptic. If Cryptic says 'X' is not to be used, it doesn't matter what other people 'think'. Its their Bar, their Rules.

[Drexxus3d]

So you're trolling then?

Theres nothing for me to get over, it's just sad to see people try and take down a good guy because they don't see eye to eye. Similar things happened before and that resulted in a network change for the channel.

The.Grand.Nagus is a notorious troll / whiner, don't take it too personally. No one takes him seriously.

[USS_Parallax]

It depends on what was said. Like I said earlier, if its a word used in a ST movie, we cant really call if "offensive", since this is a ST game.

The fact that these words are in ST doesn't matter at all. We don't judge words based on fiction but instead on the real world. If you go Data on me and say "POOOOOP" but the bad one then there's nothing that can save you from mod wrath!

It makes no difference that the words are in a ST game. That really doesn't matter at all.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

Actually, the rules of the forum and the IRC are not affected by the dialogue in the series or films.

I have seen people think that the rules are subject to their own personal interpretation, rather than understanding that rules are subject to the interpretative of Cryptic. If Cryptic says 'X' is not to be used, it doesn't matter what other people 'think'. Its their Bar, their Rules.

So, is it ok to use the curse words that the Devs use, since they represent Cryptic? :D

[USS_Parallax]

So, is it ok to use the curse words that the Devs use, since they represent Cryptic? :D

No. They can curse all they want. We can't. We're in their house. It's their rules.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

So you're trolling then?

Theres nothing for me to get over, it's just sad to see people try and take down a good guy because they don't see eye to eye. Similar things happened before and that resulted in a network change for the channel.

No more so than you. That said, just because you dont agree with the OP doesnt mean he's wrong(though I'm not saying he's right either). The OP obviously feels like the mod in question has acted inappropriately, and he's entitled to that opinion whether you agree or not. However, as I said earlier, this is the wrong place to report it.

[Loekii]

So, is it ok to use the curse words that the Devs use, since they represent Cryptic? :D

The reality is that Cryptic can do what ever they desire.

So if they use a word, and then say its 'forbidden' for us to use, it means we can get bumped for using it -- regardless of any argument that they used the word as well.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

No. They can curse all they want. We can't. We're in their house. It's their rules.

Oh fine. Guess we cant say "tribbles" anymore. Whoops! :D

[USS_Parallax]

Oh fine. Guess we cant say "tribbles" anymore. Whoops! :D

Reported..

[UrQuanKorAh]

What constitutes "swearing" to Kinneas is whatever he decides he doesn't like, depending on how much favor the person garnering it has said.

There should be a WELL DEFINED set of "words" that can't be said. Not simply deciding you don't like somebody and then deeming "damn" to be swearing. A PERSON WAS BANNED FOR SAYING "DAMN"

Censorship is not right, even when you're trying to prevent "swearing." Even the notion of swearing is archaic and quickly being out-moded.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

What constitutes "swearing" to Kinneas is whatever he decides he doesn't like, depending on how much favor the person garnering it has said.

There should be a WELL DEFINED set of "words" that can't be said. Not simply deciding you don't like somebody and then deeming "damn" to be swearing. A PERSON WAS BANNED FOR SAYING "DAMN"

Censorship is not right, even when you're trying to prevent "swearing." Even the notion of swearing is archaic and quickly being out-moded.

Its impossible to list every inappropriate word or phrase. However, a mod should not show any favoritism, nor should they punish someone for disagreeing with them in a convo about whatever topic is being discussed(like what is canon, or not, for example).

[USS_Parallax]

Show us evidence of someone he likes saying D--- in a derogatory way (D--- can be said without being a curse word). Then show that that person wasn't banned.

Did anyone of his IRC users he likes use the word and not get banned? Saying D--- is enough in my book to kick someone.

[Loekii]

I never called hardcore gamers "no lifers", but we were infact discussing the amount of time that some people have to invest in playing an online game, as opposed to more "casuals" and how it's been stated as one of STO's goals as to even the playing fields between these disparate types of games.

And I didn't resort to calling Kinneas a "power tripping little twirp" until he kicked and banned 3 people who hadn't even said ANYTHING.



At this point it becomes a 'he said/she said' issue.

Now I have 'known' Kinneas for a while, and have seen EC on the IRC. I don't know you from adam, and given your junior status, I suspect your patronage has been relatively recent.

So I tend to give credibility towards Kinneas and EC in this case - especially because I have seen new people break the rules, but then claim they did nothing wrong.

Odds are, there are other reasons the actions were taken, and there probably is alot more to the story that what you presented in your OP.

We all know that just PMing will let this issue be completely ignored.

I find it questionable that you truly understand how PMing works on this site, as you have been a member of this community for only about a week:

[Join Date: 09-25-2009]


In my experience a long time active Vet of this site, PMing gets responded two when its a legit issue.

[DoctorX]

I would like to bring it to Cryptic's attention that one of the volunteer OP's in the official STO who goes by the nickname of "Kinneas" has been acting improperly with the modicum of power he's been given.

His arbitrary and undefined set of words he calls "swearing" seem to be targeted most frequently at people who disagree with him. He has banned a productive member of the channel for using the word "damn." I don't think a child has been scolded by their parents for using this word since the turn of the millenium, but it aparently verboten if you use this terrible word if you're not on Kinneas' good side.

He also banned at least 4 uers for "sassing" which involved simply questioning him about his actions. None of these users were being disruptive in any way, and in fact were engaged in intelligent discourse with fellow IRCers.

This activity seems to occur almost exclusively when Cryptic employes are not present to witness these actions.



I see several people saying they have logs of this exchange and they disagree with you on how this went down. Do you have a log? Did you know you could log channels? Do you know bots log the channels? At least back up your claims with a SINGLE LINE or the ban message. Jeez.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

Reported..

Noooooooooooooooooo! :eek:

[The.Grand.Nagus]

Show us evidence of someone he likes saying D--- in a derogatory way (D--- can be said without being a curse word). Then show that that person wasn't banned.

Did anyone of his IRC users he likes use the word and not get banned? Saying D--- is enough in my book to kick someone.

Even that doesnt really prove anything, because he could have gone to the bathroom while the other person said it :p

[USS_Parallax]

Even that doesnt really prove anything, because he could have gone to the bathroom while the other person said it :p

Everyone knows that mods are supposed to wet themselves rather than leave the place unintended.

[The.Grand.Nagus]

Everyone knows that mods are supposed to wet themselves rather than leave the place unintended.

Oh yeah, thats what Cryptic gives them the special undies (http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc340/the_grand_nagus/stodiaper.jpg) for :D

[Ziktur]

I see several people saying they have logs of this exchange and they disagree with you on how this went down. Do you have a log? Did you know you could log channels? Do you know bots log the channels? At least back up your claims with a SINGLE LINE or the ban message. Jeez.

This encompases quite a bit and is multifacited.

I have the logs and while some things were correct, other things were not.

Did anyone of his IRC users he likes use the word and not get banned? Saying D--- is enough in my book to kick someone.

Yes, that did exactly happen. The person that set things off between others said Damn and is still sitting in the chat room.

But with that, it is all I have to say. Things will get sorted, one way or another. Good Weekend All!

[UrQuanKorAh]

Its impossible to list every inappropriate word or phrase. However, a mod should not show any favoritism, nor should they punish someone for disagreeing with them in a convo about whatever topic is being discussed(like what is canon, or not, for example).

There needs to be a well defined criteria for what constitutes swearing. Many people are trying very hard not to swear but are being caught off guard by near Puritanical tabbos. Kicking people for saying "****ed?" Come on. This isn't a child's day care, as much as Kinneas wants to act like a spoiled child.

[DoctorX]

This encompases quite a bit and is multifacited.

I have the logs and while some things were correct, other things were not.



Yes, that did exactly happen. The person that set things off between others said Damn and is still sitting in the chat room.

But with that, it is all I have to say. Things will get sorted, one way or another. Good Weekend All!



Ah, thanks for clearing that up. So people who used the same word he was banned for were ignored? That would annoy just about anyone. If he was causing problems before hand then that may be a different matter. You're right, the situation is a tad complex. Hope things get worked out and this isn't just about a troll. :)

[Loekii]

There needs to be a well defined criteria for what constitutes swearing. Many people are trying very hard not to swear but are being caught off guard by near Puritanical tabbos. Kicking people for saying "****ed?" Come on. This isn't a child's day care, as much as Kinneas wants to act like a spoiled child.

Sort of ironic that the filter HERE nabbed that as well. ;)

[Koba]

Can I see a list of words that I cannot use? I have no idea what is ok and what is not. My brother got a reprimand on these forums for a non-swear word. They told him to look at the Forum Rules, but there were not any words listed there. It seems to be arbitrary. If it is, it should just say so in the Forum Rules like:

"Anyone can be reprimanded or banned at the discretion of the moderator for whatever purpose or reason he/she may seem fit."

Then may be it would be ok.

Have I used a word I cannot use in my text just now? I sure hope not...

[Lepton]

he [Kinneas] was picked for a very good reason.
Ingratiating obsequiousness? Self-promoting aggrandizement? Delusional MMO prognostication? Naked self-interest?

Fine reasons. None of them good.

Need I point out that this is the oh-so selfless person who cried foul that Cryptic was not paying to have him flown out to PAX because of some former verbal communications with Reverb Communications:

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=727284&postcount=14


Why people of this type are continually given rewards for acting out and complaining is beyond me.

[Loekii]

Can I see a list of words that I cannot use? I have no idea what is ok and what is not. My brother got a reprimand on these forums for a non-swear word. They told him to look at the Forum Rules, but there were not any words listed there. It seems to be arbitrary. If it is, it should just say so in the Forum Rules like:

"Anyone can be reprimanded or banned at the discretion of the moderator for whatever purpose or reason he/she may seem fit."

Then may be it would be ok.

Have I used a word I cannot use in my text just now? I sure hope not...

The Forum guidelines seem pretty clear and basic to me. I have been an active poster for more than a year, and I have yet to receive an infraction for improper language - as have many others.

Generally, avoid fighting, using profanity (no matter how minor *you* might feel it is) and generally follow what is outlined in the guidelines, and you should be safe.

The moderation both here and on the IRC is pretty lax considering their 'official' nature and PG/G rating.

[slingbladez]

[17:03] <Zik> ....all you hippies!
[17:04] * Zik was kicked by Kinneas (Sassing, swearing, flaming)
[17:04] <Zik> wth
[17:04] <DackJanielz> wt..
[17:04] <Mutiny> this is retarded.
[17:04] <DackJanielz> has someone grabbed a op
[17:04] <Mutiny> get off you high horse
[17:04] <BarthRoberts> wondering when i sweared lol
[17:04] <Mutiny> power tripping little ....
<Zik> Flappman: it is called tyrany
[17:05] <Kade> If you think someone is power tripping, follow rule 19 - and if you don't know what that is, read it.
[17:05] <Zik> only tyrants act like that
[17:05] <Zik> lol
] * Zik was kicked by Kinneas (Kinneas)
[17:22] <@deerang> If anything i will say i have read logs of what went on and so everyone knows Zik was ALREADY on a last warning for trolling

This is only the later part of the exchange but it sums up how they were acting.If you guys want to know why you were kicked, read the following

http://forums.startrekonline.com/announcement.php?f=24&a=2

19. Cryptic Studios has the final say on all aspects of these Forums. If you have a problem, you may make a complaint to Cryptic Studios directly and not publicly on the website. Creating threads or posts that question or reference administrative decisions or potential administrative decisions, such as post removals and thread closures, is not permitted. If you feel that we have made a mistake, please privately contact a Cryptic Studios and we will review the situation.

These rules are linked to in the IRC Chat. Cryptic has said that this rule also applies to IRC. Here is awen also saying to respect the mods.

[16:11] <@Cryptic_Awen> OK LISTEN UP - THE MODERATORS / OPS IN THIS CHANNEL WERE CHOSEN BY CRYPTIC REPS AND THEY WORK HARD TO MAKE SURE THAT WE HAVE A GOOD PLACE TO DISCUSS THIS GAME.
[16:11] <@Cryptic_Awen> THERE NEEDS TO BE RESPECT GIVEN TO PEOPLE WHO VOLUNTEER THEIR TIME AND PUT UP WITH A BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO CHAFE AT FOLLOWING THE RULES.
[16:13] <@Cryptic_Awen> ok that was it. show some respect for people who take time out of their day to make sure that you can enjoy this channel

[UrQuanKorAh]

If you guys want to know why you were kicked, read the following

19. Cryptic Studios has the final say on all aspects of these Forums. If you have a problem, you may make a complaint to Cryptic Studios directly and not publicly on the website. Creating threads or posts that question or reference administrative decisions or potential administrative decisions, such as post removals and thread closures, is not permitted. If you feel that we have made a mistake, please privately contact a Cryptic Studios and we will review the situation.

These rules are linked to in the IRC Chat. Cryptic has said that this rule also applies to IRC. Here is awen also saying to respect the mods.

[16:11] <@Cryptic_Awen> OK LISTEN UP - THE MODERATORS / OPS IN THIS CHANNEL WERE CHOSEN BY CRYPTIC REPS AND THEY WORK HARD TO MAKE SURE THAT WE HAVE A GOOD PLACE TO DISCUSS THIS GAME.
[16:11] <@Cryptic_Awen> THERE NEEDS TO BE RESPECT GIVEN TO PEOPLE WHO VOLUNTEER THEIR TIME AND PUT UP WITH A BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO CHAFE AT FOLLOWING THE RULES.
[16:13] <@Cryptic_Awen> ok that was it. show some respect for people who take time out of their day to make sure that you can enjoy this channel

Respect is earned, not given by virtue of authority.

[Loekii]

Thanks Slingblades.

Seems pretty clear, and tends to support what I suspected was actually occurring.

[jamestpicard55]

Ingratiating obsequiousness? Self-promoting aggrandizement? Delusional MMO prognostication? Naked self-interest?

Fine reasons. None of them good.

Need I point out that this is the oh-so selfless person who cried foul that Cryptic was not paying to have him flown out to PAX because of some former verbal communications with Reverb Communications:

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=727284&postcount=14


Why people of this type are continually given rewards for acting out and complaining is beyond me.

after reading the post you linked to, that is pretty bratt-ish. no respect for that.

[Inquizitor]

I frequent the IRC, and have never seen Kinneas be abusive, nor strive to ruin the atmosphere.

Now I was not on when the OP's claims occurred, but I would like to see the official logs, rather than hearing one person's 'side' of the story.

TEll me about it. No context is provided. Threads like this never go anywhere good :/ On one hand you have people upset over what they feel is improper behavior. On the othe hand you have people who have never seen it or are fanbois of this particular person. none of it has anything to do with teh game and all it causes is argueing :/

This is why stuff like this should be PMed. Airing it out to a bunch of people who can't do anything about it one way or another is only going to cause strife and tension in the community.

[Rota]

Respect is earned, not given by virtue of authority.

...off topic


You all can agree or disagree with the OP all you want. But I love his name and avatar

Star Control 2 was an EPIC game back in the day.
<goes off to search for SC2 downlaod>

[Ziktur]

SlingBlades

Your log entry is heavily editied. It is wrong and fallacious an completely misleading.

[mmorpgstaff]

<Kinneas> ****** I told you guys I am in charge here and I decide what you can say. If you dont ****** like it then you can get the **** out. One more word and I'm locking the whole ****** room.

this is really out of hand, very abusive :(

[UrQuanKorAh]

How about some unaltered logs to put things in perspective.

(4:01:24 PM) tamgros: Zik, don't argue with me. It's not my rating system
(4:01:24 PM) Zik: now lets make it into one word
(4:01:37 PM) Zik: DAMZUS!
(4:01:41 PM) BarthRoberts: Ok guys you got the point... stop acting like those irc's geek and let s get back into STO
(4:01:50 PM) Zeroth: I don't mean to question you Kinneas, but I'm just curious where the line is, and what we aren't allowed to say.
(4:02:00 PM) deerang [painbros22@CDD15BFC.1A0418B.73A33AF8.IP] entered the room.
(4:02:00 PM) #STO: mode (+o deerang) by ChanServ
(4:02:04 PM) Zik: it is arbaritrary Zeroth
(4:02:12 PM) BlackJack: Because this is not a Democracy
(4:02:13 PM) Zik: since the b word is allowed on local networks
(4:02:13 PM) Zeroth: Because I got in trouble this morning p-ss, when its the first time I've ever seen anyone get in trouble for that.
(4:02:14 PM) CapnBludd: heh I had gotten an infraction for saying I spelled dammit that way since I thought Damn it would be blocked - mind you that neither is and I knew niether was but some large eared ferengi reported my saying i thought it would be blocked.... it got fixed tho
(4:02:17 PM) DackJanielz: tamgros i take it your impressed with the game?
(4:02:25 PM) Karrie: well hopefully we can get mmorpg to say this today :) http://kittee.zapto.org/stonumber1.jpg
(4:02:27 PM) tamgros: Yeah, DackJanielz :)
(4:02:35 PM) Mutiny: i'd like to get a list of banned words please.
(4:02:41 PM) Zeroth: lol Karrie
(4:02:41 PM) tamgros: I also played every MMO there (besides some little free ones)
(4:02:42 PM) Zik: tamgros: is impresed with a demo
(4:02:43 PM) Zik: not the game
(4:02:44 PM) Zeroth: looks better now
(4:02:45 PM) Mutiny: this arbitrary decision on what is acceptable and not acceptable isn't cool
(4:02:52 PM) tamgros: actually Zik, that is a good distinction
(4:02:55 PM) Karrie: yeah. i fixed the letters and the logo background.
(4:02:55 PM) DackJanielz: its a start to be fair
(4:03:02 PM) tamgros: I still have to see how the whole MMO aspect will play out
(4:03:08 PM) tamgros: but the base game mechanics are impressive
(4:03:21 PM) tamgros: base combat mechanics I should say
(4:03:21 PM) DackJanielz: so
(4:03:23 PM) Nindran: we tried
(4:03:24 PM) Isengardtom: it seems action based, which is a good thing
(4:03:25 PM) DackJanielz: pressing space bar fires phasers?
(4:03:29 PM) DackJanielz: is it like on a cooldown or something
(4:03:31 PM) Zik: thank you tamgros
(4:03:37 PM) Zik: demos do not legally have to represent a game at all
(4:03:42 PM) Zik: it is a downfal of the gaming industry
(4:03:43 PM) Flappman: I just want to tackle a klingon ship with a tractor beam and slingshot it into a sun :)
(4:03:45 PM) Zeroth: its just a shortcut to fire all weapons DackJanielz
(4:03:48 PM) Zeroth: theres far more keys for weapons
(4:03:49 PM) CapnBludd: I really do not want to see a lot of other ships around, so i'm hoping for the same sharding that CO has
(4:04:00 PM) Zeroth: oh yes
(4:04:11 PM) tamgros: DackJanielz, yeah, it's a global cooldown
(4:04:12 PM) Isengardtom: besides, the keys will be moddable no?
(4:04:16 PM) Zeroth: CO suffered from, in the Open Beta, "The Tragedy of the Commons"
(4:04:16 PM) tamgros: but it's pretty quick
(4:04:22 PM) DackJanielz: nice
(4:04:28 PM) BarthRoberts left the room (Kicked by Kinneas (Sassing, swearing, flaming)).

Somebody show me where in that log that BarthRoberts swears. Or ANYWHERE in the log where he even comes close to swearing. I've searched through it back over the course for hours, and he barely says anything.

[UrQuanKorAh]

...off topic


You all can agree or disagree with the OP all you want. But I love his name and avatar

Star Control 2 was an EPIC game back in the day.
<goes off to search for SC2 downlaod>

Also off topic but there is an open-source version called the UrQuan Masters you might be interested in.

The STO devs might try taking a page to see how to implement exciting ship-to-ship battles, despite primitive graphics and a 2D plane. ;)

[jamestpicard55]

Somebody show me where in that log that BarthRoberts swears. Or ANYWHERE in the log where he even comes close to swearing. I've searched through it back over the course for hours, and he barely says anything.

the word "damn" is technically swearing. although, its being pretty picky about it.

[slingbladez]

He was probably kicked for what he said at (4:01:41 PM) when he told us to stop acting like IRC geeks.
Swearing isn't the only thing that can get you kicked.
(4:04:28 PM) BarthRoberts left the room (Kicked by Kinneas (Sassing, swearing, flaming)).

14. Respect is the name of the game. You must respect your fellow members and refrain from inflammatory comments as well as flaming, taunting, and general disrespect. Do not simply put down the opinion or advice given by others. If you don't agree with it, say why - respectfully. Don't just tell them they're wrong. Do not make uninvited remarks about typos, duplicate posts, posting styles, etc.

[Inquizitor]

the word "damn" is technically swearing. although, its being pretty picky about it.

Acording to that log the person who got kicked wasn't even the person who said damn. *shrug* I still feel like I'm not seeing the whole story. According to that log it looks completely random the way he was kicked.

[jamestpicard55]

He was probably kicked for what he said at (4:01:41 PM) BarthRoberts
(4:04:28 PM) BarthRoberts left the room (Kicked by Kinneas (Sassing, swearing, flaming)).

14. Respect is the name of the game. You must respect your fellow members and refrain from inflammatory comments as well as flaming, taunting, and general disrespect. Do not simply put down the opinion or advice given by others. If you don't agree with it, say why - respectfully. Don't just tell them they're wrong. Do not make uninvited remarks about typos, duplicate posts, posting styles, etc.

you gotta be kidding. last night awen was calling people on the forum nerd-ragers because they didnt like the shiplist. what the person said at 4.01.41 wasnt even close to flaming.

[Inquizitor]

He was probably kicked for what he said at (4:01:41 PM) when he told us to stop acting like IRC geeks.
Swearing isn't the only thing that can get you kicked.
(4:04:28 PM) BarthRoberts left the room (Kicked by Kinneas (Sassing, swearing, flaming)).

14. Respect is the name of the game. You must respect your fellow members and refrain from inflammatory comments as well as flaming, taunting, and general disrespect. Do not simply put down the opinion or advice given by others. If you don't agree with it, say why - respectfully. Don't just tell them they're wrong. Do not make uninvited remarks about typos, duplicate posts, posting styles, etc.

Wait a minute. I can report people for doing stuff like that? Or is that just an IRC rule?

[Inquizitor]

you gotta be kidding. last night awen was calling people on the forum nerd-ragers because they didnt like the shiplist. what the person said at 4.01.41 wasnt even close to flaming.

She did? Yeah I'd take a heck of alot more offence a tthat than the IRC geeks comment. Some peopl ewear teh title geek like a badge of honor.

I'm not particularly fuming about the ship list but excuse me for giving enough of a damn about the list to comment on it...

[UrQuanKorAh]

He was probably kicked for what he said at (4:01:41 PM) when he told us to stop acting like IRC geeks.
Swearing isn't the only thing that can get you kicked.
(4:04:28 PM) BarthRoberts left the room (Kicked by Kinneas (Sassing, swearing, flaming)).

14. Respect is the name of the game. You must respect your fellow members and refrain from inflammatory comments as well as flaming, taunting, and general disrespect. Do not simply put down the opinion or advice given by others. If you don't agree with it, say why - respectfully. Don't just tell them they're wrong. Do not make uninvited remarks about typos, duplicate posts, posting styles, etc.

Forced respect is the hallmark of the contemptable. I simply can't respect somebody who tries to abuse their fallow power as an IRC op, and no reasonable person would a spine would, either.

[oleum]

Respect is earned, not given by virtue of authority.

And in the quote you made of the EXCELLENT post by SlingBlades you will see that Awen stated that the people who volunteer their time to OP the room are chosen by Cryptic (and hence respected by the people who matter Cryptic). As someone else said its their house so you gotta play by their rules.

[Cormoran]

Forced respect is the hallmark of the contemptable. I simply can't respect somebody who tries to abuse their fallow power as an IRC op, and no reasonable person would a spine would, either.

Respect also runs both ways, why should we respect your word over theirs?

[jamestpicard55]

And in the quote you made of the EXCELLENT post by SlingBlades you will see that Awen stated that the people who volunteer their time to OP the room are chosen by Cryptic (and hence respected by the people who matter Cryptic). As someone else said its their house so you gotta play by their rules.


none of that even matters, because the chat we have seen wasnt disrespectful.

[JPJappic]

Though I don't really go on the IRC that much because I don't get spoken to... how did these certain individuals get to become OPs in the STO chat room? In some ways I find it tremendously unfair for certain individuals to be chosen by Cryptic behind the scenes... it blends in with favoritism.

[Inquizitor]

Though I don't really go on the IRC that much because I don't get spoken to... how did these certain individuals get to become OPs in the STO chat room? In some ways I find it tremendously unfair for certain individuals to be chosen by Cryptic behind the scenes... it blends in with favoritism.

I'd tell you but I think it would break teh forum rules to do so.

Besides i'd have to kill you afterwards and I think Tellarite are an endangered species as it is.

[Loekii]

Though I don't really go on the IRC that much because I don't get spoken to... how did these certain individuals get to become OPs in the STO chat room? In some ways I find it tremendously unfair for certain individuals to be chosen by Cryptic behind the scenes... it blends in with favoritism.

Not really seeing that.

As someone that actually frequents the chat room, the selection seems pretty validated.

They are frequent participants to the IRC.
They have been generally respectful to others in the IRC.
They have an interest in volunteering for the community.


And the reality is that its Cryptic's Call. Call it favoritism that they select people that happen to frequently be involved in the community, but to me, it seems like they selected good candidates.

[JPJappic]

Not really seeing that.

As someone that actually frequents the chat room, the selection seems pretty validated.



Doesn't validate favoritism.

[oleum]

Doesn't validate favoritism.

Would you like to qualify that comment?

[Inquizitor]

Doesn't validate favoritism.

I'd stear clear of those waters man. You admit to not being on the IRC channel much so you don't really have a dog in this fight. As some Pro Quaterbacks might say.

[JPJappic]

Would you like to qualify that comment?

Though I really don't have anything against Hailing Frequency and I commend them for the amount of work they put in to their site and podcasts. I'll forever be grateful for them including an advertisement of my fleet in a few of their podcasts but it is clear that they are tight-tight with Cryptic. This isn't a wholly bad thing cause they've helped in providing info to us. In some ways it's not fair though to the rest of the community. Some other people also work hard but don't get the recognition they deserve.

[Inquizitor]

Do stuff because you enjoy it and you like it. Not because you want recognition.

[JPJappic]

Do stuff because you enjoy it and you like it. Not because you want recognition.

I'm not talking about myself btw. I get the recognition I need from the people I care about which is all that matters to me.

[mmorpgstaff]

Do stuff because you enjoy it and you like it. Not because you want recognition.

exactly. pretty much the opposite of this:

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=727284&postcount=14

[SamFred81]

While I'm in full agreement that those actions are an abuse, this should have been PM'd to a dev instead.

[Nerresand]

Skip to the end for the short version of this long, boring speech.

I'm going to address this to no one side in particular, and simply talk about the best way to handle situations like these, because this is a good example of how not to do it.

If someone thinks that someone in power is misusing said power, then it is entirely warranted to bring it to the attention of the higher-ups. And it makes little sense to immediately downplay said concern as nothing more than "smearing the name of a good guy who's done a lot for the community" or some such. Not to assume that the person filing the complaint is automatically correct, but that should be decided by people in power, and if you have such confidence in a person's character and actions, you should have no problem with them being exposed. Defenses - or attacks - of a person's character are arbitrary and subjective, not to mention irrelevant: they carry very little weight in a meaningful discussion meant to address a grievance.

Kinneas may be a great guy, or a brat, but it doesn't really matter. In these situations, I like to think, what would Odo do? He certainly wouldn't care about a guy's personality, good or bad. So many disputes end up being 90% meaningless fluff, character attacks/defenses, and personal insults, and 10% actual substance.

However, this should be addressed with PMs to the forum moderators. Awen has said that she reads every single PM, and I believe it (she answered one of mine that I wasn't expecting her to). I would find it hard to believe that the mods would just ignore this or sweep it under the rug without checking it out.

The issue of what constitutes swearing can be highly subjective, which makes it a gray area at best, but the important thing is that in this context, swearing is whatever those in charge decide it is. Whether or not a moderator acts inappropriately is an issue to be addressed separately, but as long as they're in a position of responsibility the decision is theirs. It's up to those with even more responsibility to decide whether to revoke the person's power.

But the very worst thing for someone with a complaint to do is throw a tantrum. I know from experience that ranting accomplishes very little, and that those in power will be far more willing to listen to someone who approaches them with respect and follows the rules themselves. The best way to "complain" about somebody is to prove that you're any better than you allege them to be.

Short version: let's try to keep this civil. Everybody is always so much happier in the end that way.

[Ziktur]

^^^^
I fully agree.

That is why I sent a pm with a full log to both Rekhan and Awen and kept my activity in this thread to a minimum. I could not decide who to send to and felt bad even having to bother either of them so I just chose them both and hopefully hear from the before the Dev Chat on Monday.

(Granted, if I am not in here, school quarter starts Monday, so really...it is in a way a blessing. lol)

[Rota]

In these situations, I like to think, what would Odo do?

awesome.

I'm going to get a WWOD bracelet first thing tomorrow.

[Inquizitor]

Wouldn't Odo like Shapeshift into a Gazebo and catch them in the act ?

[Nerresand]

Odo is my hero.

*Face appears out of gazebo*
"I wouldn't do that if I were you."
*Face melts back into gazebo*

[Zeroth]

Okay, so someone is bad at being kicked for flaming? Its not like they got banned.

[Cruis.In]

kinneas is just running his own rule set. banning people for saying damn? I bet his nickname sits in the channel all day. and hes afk or uses it from work.

then when he gets home its the first thing he goes to and says hi, and everyone says hi back and feels so popular in his little world because people acknowledge him.

he is on some kind of virtual power trip in his little corner.

the only time a mod should interfere in the channel is if someone is disrupting discussion, otherwise i say let people discuss what they want to without flaming.

[Inquizitor]

The guy appears to be from a website of some sort so I assume there is some sort of marketing politics at play behind him being a moderator in teh first place. Nothing is ever as cut and dry simple as it may at first seem.

Last think Crytpic needs is for them to discipline him and then have him turn around and start poo pooing STO on a Star Trek fan site. I assume its a popular one.

[jacksparrowjive55]

Okay, so someone is bad at being kicked for flaming? Its not like they got banned.

i think the point is, there wasnt any flaming. now that the chat log is released, thats even more obvious.

[jacksparrowjive55]

The guy appears to be from a website of some sort so I assume there is some sort of marketing politics at play behind him being a moderator in teh first place. Nothing is ever as cut and dry simple as it may at first seem.

Last think Crytpic needs is for them to discipline him and then have him turn around and start poo pooing STO on a Star Trek fan site. I assume its a popular one.

he's a player just like you and i, appointed to act as a mod by crytpic. and if he abuses that power, which it appears he did, then cryptic can and should remove him.

[Zeroth]

But it shouldn't be done /here/. Because basically all this thread has done is unfairly bash Kinneas, by a few people that are upset at... getting kicked/banned from an IRC channel. Give the man some basic modicum of respect everyone deserves, and keep it private.

Now before someone comes in saying, "I don't just give out respect", you have to understand that everyone deserves a basic amount of respect, because we're all people, and not just names.

Think about how the Starfleet officers of the future treated people, with a basic modicum of respect everyone deserves.

[Koba]

It is not unfair. Look at the evidence. Nuff said.

[Ziktur]

But it shouldn't be done /here/. Because basically all this thread has done is unfairly bash Kinneas, by a few people that are upset at... getting kicked/banned from an IRC channel. Give the man some basic modicum of respect everyone deserves, and keep it private.

Now before someone comes in saying, "I don't just give out respect", you have to understand that everyone deserves a basic amount of respect, because we're all people, and not just names.

Think about how the Starfleet officers of the future treated people, with a basic modicum of respect everyone deserves.

We may not agree on much, but I do agree with this here! lol

[Inquizitor]

But it shouldn't be done /here/. Because basically all this thread has done is unfairly bash Kinneas, by a few people that are upset at... getting kicked/banned from an IRC channel. Give the man some basic modicum of respect everyone deserves, and keep it private.

Now before someone comes in saying, "I don't just give out respect", you have to understand that everyone deserves a basic amount of respect, because we're all people, and not just names.

Think about how the Starfleet officers of the future treated people, with a basic modicum of respect everyone deserves.

The Starfleet officers of the future routinely kidnapped people, blew up Voyager multiple times, and enforced a rigid 'my way or the highway mentality'

[UrQuanKorAh]

And in the quote you made of the EXCELLENT post by SlingBlades you will see that Awen stated that the people who volunteer their time to OP the room are chosen by Cryptic (and hence respected by the people who matter Cryptic). As someone else said its their house so you gotta play by their rules.


You seem to think Cryptic is ilfallible. Perhaps their decision on who they've trusted with moderation duties was a poor one, given the conduct of the individual, especially when compared to the much more level hand wielded by the others presented with the same duties.

[jamestpicard55]

The Starfleet officers of the future routinely kidnapped people, blew up Voyager multiple times, and enforced a rigid 'my way or the highway mentality'

LOL! Section 31 FTW :D

[Zeroth]

Oh, and to counter the objection about freedom of the press, here goes:

Journalists don't do public name and shame campaigns. Politicians do. But not journalists. Journalists will present the evidence, and take quotes, but they never, ever(at least they shouldn't), inject their opinion into the issue.

Even working for an amateur news organization, a student newspaper, we go to great lengths to do this, no matter how much we /personally/ feel about a topic. But sometimes... the evidence and quotes(or lack of) damns the individual without having to do anything.

[jamestpicard55]

Oh, and to counter the objection about freedom of the press, here goes:

Journalists don't do public name and shame campaigns. Politicians do. But not journalists. Journalists will present the evidence, and take quotes, but they never, ever(at least they shouldn't), inject their opinion into the issue.

Even working for an amateur news organization, a student newspaper, we go to great lengths to do this, no matter how much we /personally/ feel about a topic. But sometimes... the evidence and quotes(or lack of) damns the individual without having to do anything.

"feedom of the press" or "free speech" or whatever you want to call it doesnt apply on private forums anyway, so that is a moot point.

[MattTreck]

I would like to bring it to Cryptic's attention that one of the volunteer OP's in the official STO who goes by the nickname of "Kinneas" has been acting improperly with the modicum of power he's been given.

His arbitrary and undefined set of words he calls "swearing" seem to be targeted most frequently at people who disagree with him. He has banned a productive member of the channel for using the word "damn." I don't think a child has been scolded by their parents for using this word since the turn of the millenium, but it aparently verboten if you use this terrible word if you're not on Kinneas' good side.

He also banned at least 4 uers for "sassing" which involved simply questioning him about his actions. None of these users were being disruptive in any way, and in fact were engaged in intelligent discourse with fellow IRCers.

This activity seems to occur almost exclusively when Cryptic employes are not present to witness these actions.

Im on every day almost and I haven't seen him ban anyone..... except for that 1 spammer.....

[UrQuanKorAh]

Again, trying to keep the matter "private" is just code word for lets not present anything that might be potentially embarassing or represent mistakes made. Own your conduct, don't try to handle it in secret like some kind of back handed dealings. This is the same thing that the Catholic church tried to do when protecting molester priests.

At the very least, the rules should be better defined. Being able to call whatever he wants a "swear" or "sassing" is just inviting abuse. Kinneas should have rules he should operate by, as well.

[Forgotten-Nemesis]

This is the same thing that the Catholic church tried to do when protecting molester priests.

Comparing a jerk irc mod to a pedophile now?

[jamestpicard55]

This is the same thing that the Catholic church tried to do when protecting molester priests.

Statements like this hurt your case rather than help it.

[UrQuanKorAh]

Comparing a jerk irc mod to a pedophile now?

I'm describing the parallels of trying to suppress discussion of something you're ashamed of.

[Forgotten-Nemesis]

I'm describing the parallels of trying to suppress discussion of something you're ashamed of.

I don't think anyone is "ashamed" of Kinneas or trying to suppress discussion to protect him. People are saying there are specific channels you can go through to get your complaint heard. If you tried those channels already and had no luck then I agree with your bringing it to the forums.

[UrQuanKorAh]

I don't think anyone is "ashamed" of Kinneas or trying to suppress discussion to protect him. People are saying there are specific channels you can go through to get your complaint heard. If you tried those channels already and had no luck then I agree with your bringing it to the forums.

Discussions like this should be held in the open for a reason, so others can add their input, and it can't simply be ignored and forgotten.

[erriku]

Discussions like this should be held in the open for a reason, so others can add their input, and it can't simply be ignored and forgotten.

Except a complaint listed in the forums can get you into trouble with the devs. It's best to go the designated routes when trying to list a formal complaint.

[SamFred81]

Handling it privately keeps YOU from looking like a jerkface as well.

[koric]

I would like to bring it to Cryptic's attention that one of the volunteer OP's in the official STO who goes by the nickname of "Kinneas" has been acting improperly with the modicum of power he's been given.

His arbitrary and undefined set of words he calls "swearing" seem to be targeted most frequently at people who disagree with him. He has banned a productive member of the channel for using the word "damn." I don't think a child has been scolded by their parents for using this word since the turn of the millenium, but it aparently verboten if you use this terrible word if you're not on Kinneas' good side.

He also banned at least 4 uers for "sassing" which involved simply questioning him about his actions. None of these users were being disruptive in any way, and in fact were engaged in intelligent discourse with fellow IRCers.

This activity seems to occur almost exclusively when Cryptic employes are not present to witness these actions.

Well, you are absolutely incorrect about children being allowed to say "damn" or any of a wide variety of words which a certain segment of humanity feels they have some sort of right to utter. It sounds like a simple rule to me. It's even easier to watch your language while typing than it is while talking.

You have crafted a post that seems to imply a decent command of the language. So why, exactly, is it so hard to control your fingers in IRC?

[HailingFrequencyZach]

Wow.....this thread......just............wow.....

[Cardassian_Vole]

Wow.....this thread......just............wow.....

I agree, this is wrong. And I see many posters think of it the same way. I suspect this is an alt for someone who is actually been banned by Kinneas and tries to get his revenge with this thread.

I wonder why the mods haven't closed it already?

[oleum]

Please close this thread. It is serving no purpose. I hoped it would have died on its own by now. It serves no real purpose. I am sure that you are aware that there was a complaint by now. Whether this was justified or not you have the logs and can surely decide.

Anyone who wanted a say has surely had that say by now. The original poster has broken the forum "Rules" by bringing this here as a post as it is clear that it should have been dealt with by PM. There have been many personal insults and aspersions cast. It would be better for all concerned if this thread is locked and in a day or two deleted.

[ad.manderson]

I will close this down.

This is not the correct plattform to handle such concerns. The correct way is to use the proper query channels in IRC or PMs here in forum. I will forward the issue.

Much thanks,

Dio