A thought about Klingons, Orions and Gorn....

[scholarman]

We know that the Klingons have Orions and Gorn in their alliance, but we don't know how Orion and Gorn vessels are going to factor into the Klingon Defense Forces. I have to wonder... what if the three 'sub-factions' make up the Klingon faction's equivalent of Starfleet's Cruisers, Escorts and Science Vessels.

Consider -- the Klingons are going to need Science capable ships to not only explore their space but provide the necessary support functions in fleet actions. But a ship that's boldly running scans, deploying tractor beams and transferring shield energy during a fight isn't exactly on the fast track to Sto'Vo'Kor. It would be hard to get the best and brightest warriors in the Klingon fleet to crew anything but Escorts or Cruisers -- with a preference for the hard hitting Escorts.

What if this is where the rest of the alliance comes in? What if the Klingon ships largely fill the Escort role -- heavy DPS and hit-and-run -- with the occasional battlecruiser to even things out. What if the Gorn, in the meantime, fill the general cruiser role -- ships designed to take tremendous punishment and stay in the fight, while the Orions take up the Science role -- nimble ships with many surprises and more of a sense of cunning than vicious honor.

Granted, it might be hard for a Klingon to admit his ship survived a battle thanks to some honorless Orion transferring shield energy to his ship at a vital moment... but with Starfleet having been refined by the Dominion War and all the other troubles into an actual threat, sometimes one must take the assistance that is offered instead of that which is desired....

Just a theory, mind, but it would be nice if the KDF faction took advantage of the diversity in their alliance, I have to admit....

[Varrangian]

I'm sorry, but it has been confirmed that Klingons will have Raiders, Cruisers and Carriers. If you look at the two Klingon ships reveal this follows that pattern. The Raptor is described as a hit and run raid ship and the Vo'Quv is clearly a Carrier.

Again it has been said (most clearly in the interview by Tamgros with Craig) that Klingon gameplay will be more combat oriented. They likely have no desire to "explore" their space as the federation would, but rather to subjugate it.

The Klingon ship roles will not follow the same pattern as the Federation. The Devs are trying to create asymmetrical parity, not perfect equality.

As for Gorn, Nausicaan, and Orion ships. As much as I would like to see them the new SoL information has pretty much dashed all my hopes for that. As you can see by looking at the organization, the ships classes in each configuration represent one single hull silhouette for that tier. To add in any of the other species ships would mean that you do not have a Klingon hull for that tier.

[knightofhyrule730]

you will not be able to fly orion or gorn ships. klingon only.

[adamflux]

I think that that new science rig that they posted is evidence that we might be able to purchase ships outside of the standard tiers for our factions, which would be sweet.

[Zepath]

Well, its been hinted that the Klingon play will vary from that of the Federation ...

And given we're this late into the game (pun intended) and we're still not seeing ships for the Klingons, that leads me to believe that one of two things is going on here ....

1) there will be ships outside the KDF that Klingons can accquire.

2) There's only going to be a limited number of KDF ships ... but you'll be able to keep upgrading them right into Tier 4.

[marscentral]

I personally think that some of the Klingon faction ships will be Orion, Gorn or Nausicaan, say all tier 3 raiders are based on an Orion ship. I hasten to add that that's not based on anything Cryptic has said, just my gut feeling.

[overlordthor]

I'd put 1 of the other races ships into each tier, giving them one type of ship in that rank. A reasonable place to put them is in the Carrier slot, because up to now, the Klingons haven't really made big use of fighters and carriers, that may have been an acquisition from another race, perhaps they get a cruiser or something in one tier as well, its also possible they get a raider, but thats a common Klingon ship type, but that's all I can see a Nausigan using.

[Musterion]

Again it has been said (most clearly in the interview by Tamgros with Craig) that Klingon gameplay will be more combat oriented.

That's pretty amazing, considering the sheer amount of absolute combat we've seen on the Federation side alone :p looking forward to it!

[Replica]

you will not be able to fly orion or gorn ships. klingon only.
oh... I see.., well that settles it. While there are some threads complaining about the almost total lack of info on the Klingon side of the game, our friend "knightofhyrule" seems to know all about it. so there we have it, no source links needed.

[Varrangian]

I'd put 1 of the other races ships into each tier, giving them one type of ship in that rank. A reasonable place to put them is in the Carrier slot, because up to now, the Klingons haven't really made big use of fighters and carriers, that may have been an acquisition from another race, perhaps they get a cruiser or something in one tier as well, its also possible they get a raider, but thats a common Klingon ship type, but that's all I can see a Nausigan using.

Well the problem is the one Carrier example we have the Vo'Quv is clearly a Klingon ship.

That's pretty amazing, considering the sheer amount of absolute combat we've seen on the Federation side alone :p looking forward to it!

I think the major difference is intent. While the Feds may end up in combat often it is the intent of their mission that is different. They are sent do escort an ambassador in the mission that was demo'd at PAX where as a Klingon mission will likely have a hostile intention.

[overlordthor]

Well the problem is the one Carrier example we have the Vo'Quv is clearly a Klingon ship.

Yes, it is however, a "super"carrier, and is far larger then something a small empire could put together.

The basic idea of fighter combat could have been integrated from one of the other groups. The Klingons created their own pure Klingon version of that idea.

The other races may have lots of smaller carriers to be integrated into the fleet, but nothing large enough to fit the super carrier status. The Empires just didnt have the Klingon resources of a extremely massive empire.

[knightofhyrule730]

oh... I see.., well that settles it. While there are some threads complaining about the almost total lack of info on the Klingon side of the game, our friend "knightofhyrule" seems to know all about it. so there we have it, no source links needed.

you seem to forget how correct i have been over the past few months... my magic 8 ball does not lie.

[Varrangian]

Yes, it is however, a "super"carrier, and is far larger then something a small empire could put together.

The basic idea of fighter combat could have been integrated from one of the other groups. The Klingons created their own pure Klingon version of that idea.

The other races may have lots of smaller carriers to be integrated into the fleet, but nothing large enough to fit the super carrier status. The Empires just didnt have the Klingon resources of a extremely massive empire.

Ok lets say then that the Vo'Quv is the tier 4 Carrier. That means that the Gorn, Orion and Nausicaan can fill tiers 1-3. But it would seem like they are damned no matter what they pick. If they put the Gorn at tier 1 the fans of the Gorn will be unhappy and likewise for the other species fans.

I'm not saying it is impossible, but I think putting Gorn, Orion and Nausicaan player ships in could end up more trouble than it is worth.

[ghall]

If they put the Gorn at tier 1 the fans of the Gorn will be unhappy and likewise for the other species fans.

I'm not saying it is impossible, but I think putting Gorn, Orion and Nausicaan player ships in could end up more trouble than it is worth.

Looking at the way the Fed ships are organized, there are multiple ships per role per tier. If Klingons ships are organized in a similar way they could easily have one ship per core KDF species per role per tier.

ex.
Tier 1:
Science
Klingon Ship
Orion Ship
Gorn Ship
Nausican Ship

Tactical
Klingon Ship
Orion Ship
Gorn Ship
Nausican Ship

Engineering
etc.

[Varrangian]

Looking at the way the Fed ships are organized, there are multiple ships per role per tier. If Klingons ships are organized in a similar way they could easily have one ship per core KDF species per role per tier.

ex.
Tier 1:
Science
Klingon Ship
Orion Ship
Gorn Ship
Nausican Ship

Tactical
Klingon Ship
Orion Ship
Gorn Ship
Nausican Ship

Engineering
etc.


Alright first, I'm sorry I don't mean to be rude, but I'm getting tired of having to say this, but Klingons will have Raiders, Cruisers and Carriers. They will not have the same ship roles as the Feds.

Second, if you look at the multiple ships per role per tier you'll discover that they all "look" alike. They are all based on the same basic hull design. Look at the Escot role in Commander you'll see the Akira and the Norway, these are based on the same basic hull design. Look at the Escort role for Captain you'll see the Defiant and the Valiant, these are again based on the same basic hull design.

There is a reason for this. Cryptic wants you to be able to identify a ships tier and capabilities based on its hull design. So I seriously doubt we will see three ship in each role/tier combination for the Klingons that look different than each other.

[J.L.Picard]

my thought on them is...

they should all die and be fed to Fek'Lar

[Acyl]

Second, if you look at the multiple ships per role per tier you'll discover that they all "look" alike. They are all based on the same basic hull design. Look at the Escot role in Commander you'll see the Akira and the Norway, these are based on the same basic hull design. Look at the Escort role for Captain you'll see the Defiant and the Valiant, these are again based on the same basic hull design.

There is a reason for this. Cryptic wants you to be able to identify a ships tier and capabilities based on its hull design. So I seriously doubt we will see three ship in each role/tier combination for the Klingons that look different than each other.

I think Varragian is right. So if we DO get ships for the Gorn, Orion, and Naussicans, I figure it'll be like this:

Tier 1 Raider

-- B'rel-class Klingon Bird of Prey
-- Orion BoP (Kinda like a Bird of Prey, except in skimpy clothing and greener)
-- Gorn BoP (The Dinosaur of Prey)
-- Nausicaan BoP (Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's the Nausicaan BoP!)


Meaning, the Tier 1 Raiders will all share the same predatory bird look, long neck, downward-angled wings, large cannons on the wingtips...but each race will have their own stylistic variant of that basic shape.

So you can immediately look at one and know it's a T1 Raider, but yet each race can have its own flavour.

[scholarman]

Hrm.

The true issue with all of this is less one of 'why doesn't the empire have Science vessels.' The true issue is 'how will the Empire compete with mez capable ships if they don't themselves have Mez capable ships.'

We talk about Escorts, Cruisers and Science Vessels on the Fed side, but what they turn into, in fleet actions, are dedicated DPS, Tanks and Control/Healers. While we will hopefully be able to blur the edges (I'd like to have my Cruisers blur the lines into Science a bit, for example), in a lot of ways we're going to have the fast moving hard hitting ships, the highly durable aggro drawing ships, and the ships that repair/bolster their allies and harry/intercept their enemies.

The Klingon fleet will have to either match those roles, or counter those roles in a different way. If the 'Raiders' become DPS, the Cruisers stick as Tanks and the Carriers become Hold/Healers, that's fine -- but it means that the differences between the two fleets will largely be cosmetic. If, on the other hand, Raiders, Carriers and Cruisers have unique roles to play, moving the damage, tanking and mez/heal roles into different configurations, they're going to have to be very carefully balanced so that Fed ships neither Pwn them out of the gate or get obliterated by them immediately. It's hard to do complimentary factional roles.

I have yet to see anything that says that the KDF will fly nothing but Klingon ships. Further, if the Gorn and the Orions are so subsumed into the Klingon empire that their unique ships are simply not available, it would be hard to believe any Gorn or Orion would be trusted to captain a ship -- but we already know they're selectable as Captains in the game. If there are truly going to be 16 'basic' classes of ships on the Federation side (or three more than we've had currently confirmed), then one would expect 16 basic classes of ship on the Klingon side, and honestly we haven't seen anywhere near that many Klingon ships in Canon. If Cryptic's going to make 10 or so classes of Klingon ship out of whole cloth, c'est ca, but it seems at least as likely that they'll fill in some of the gaps with Gorn or Orion ships, so that A) non-Klingon Captains make sense in the context of the KDF, and B) they can put more basic ships from Canon or Soft Canon onto the Klingon side, rather than having to make them all up.

(I reject the idea that the Klingon side will have dramatically fewer ships than the Federation side, on the theory that there's only so angry Cryptic wants to make the Klingon players. ;) )

[Varrangian]

Hrm.

The true issue with all of this is less one of 'why doesn't the empire have Science vessels.' The true issue is 'how will the Empire compete with mez capable ships if they don't themselves have Mez capable ships.'

We talk about Escorts, Cruisers and Science Vessels on the Fed side, but what they turn into, in fleet actions, are dedicated DPS, Tanks and Control/Healers. While we will hopefully be able to blur the edges (I'd like to have my Cruisers blur the lines into Science a bit, for example), in a lot of ways we're going to have the fast moving hard hitting ships, the highly durable aggro drawing ships, and the ships that repair/bolster their allies and harry/intercept their enemies.

The Klingon fleet will have to either match those roles, or counter those roles in a different way. If the 'Raiders' become DPS, the Cruisers stick as Tanks and the Carriers become Hold/Healers, that's fine -- but it means that the differences between the two fleets will largely be cosmetic. If, on the other hand, Raiders, Carriers and Cruisers have unique roles to play, moving the damage, tanking and mez/heal roles into different configurations, they're going to have to be very carefully balanced so that Fed ships neither Pwn them out of the gate or get obliterated by them immediately. It's hard to do complimentary factional roles.

Ok well I have to give Loekii the credit for some of this because I'm not a WoW player and haven't been for years, but Loekii conceptualized the various roles of the Klingons ships in WoW terms.

Klingons:
Raider = Rogue
Cruiser = Warrior
Carrier = Hunter

This makes sense for the Raider to be a "rouge" like character. In that it is not going to go toe to toe with a Cruiser or Escort ship, but rather hit and run then cloak and do it again.

The Carrier was described in the Oct 08 GameInformer as a hybrid pet/tank class. I don't know how the Hunter works in WoW, so I can't comment if Loekii got this right or not.

Now the Cruiser is the one role I have the most questions about. For the Federation the Cruiser has been described as a tank. Will Klingon Cruisers be the same thing? I could actually see this role getting renamed or re-imagined.

I do not think the have to utilize symmetrical parity to balance the game. Just because the Feds have a "controller" role doesn't mean the Kligons need to too. Perhaps one of the roles of the carrier could be to help break these "holds" from science ships by deploying their fighters. While balance is vital to any MMO especially one with PvP balance does not have to come from providing the same abilities to each faction.

I have yet to see anything that says that the KDF will fly nothing but Klingon ships. Further, if the Gorn and the Orions are so subsumed into the Klingon empire that their unique ships are simply not available, it would be hard to believe any Gorn or Orion would be trusted to captain a ship -- but we already know they're selectable as Captains in the game. If there are truly going to be 16 'basic' classes of ships on the Federation side (or three more than we've had currently confirmed), then one would expect 16 basic classes of ship on the Klingon side, and honestly we haven't seen anywhere near that many Klingon ships in Canon. If Cryptic's going to make 10 or so classes of Klingon ship out of whole cloth, c'est ca, but it seems at least as likely that they'll fill in some of the gaps with Gorn or Orion ships, so that A) non-Klingon Captains make sense in the context of the KDF, and B) they can put more basic ships from Canon or Soft Canon onto the Klingon side, rather than having to make them all up.

Honestly... you can't have this game be perfectly canon and allow the level of customization they intend to give (the Cryptic hallmark). You couldn't allow only Federation players to create their own species, you couldn't allow Fed players to have choices in their characters species and not provide it for Klingons without completely unbalancing the factions. The fact there there may be an Orion captain on a KDF ship is just something you'll have to put in the fun vs. canon column.

I've listed repeatedly my reasons to believe that the Klingons will not have Orion, Gorn or Nausicaan ships. No one has attempted to refute that logic. One last thing on this subject, most of the ships (in either faction) that are in soft-canon come from other video games, there would be a cost associated with using them, I don't think we will see any ships from older games utilized in STO.

(I reject the idea that the Klingon side will have dramatically fewer ships than the Federation side, on the theory that there's only so angry Cryptic wants to make the Klingon players. ;) )

I also reject this theory. I do not see any evidence that, the Klingons will have fewer than 16 configurations. If we take the canon ships from the Klingon side and update them all there are I believe 8 (Raptor from Ent, D7, B'rel BoP, K'tinga, D5, K'Vort, Vor'cha, Negh'Var) add the Vo'Quv to that you already have 9 possible ship configurations. Consider they need to "invent" 3 more Carriers that means they only have room for 4 more ships to "invent".

[dan6526]

I'm sorry, but it has been confirmed that Klingons will have Raiders, Cruisers and Carriers. If you look at the two Klingon ships reveal this follows that pattern. The Raptor is described as a hit and run raid ship and the Vo'Quv is clearly a Carrier.

Question: where is the link to this statement because I've not heard that there is a confirmation that there is more than one Carrier (Vo'Quv)?

Here's a thought as an example:

Heavy Cruiser (T1ish even with Federation Tier 1s)
-ship class 1 Klingon K'tinga
-ship class 2 Orion "Cruiser"
-ship class 3 Gorn Battle Cruiser (or Nausican go back and forth between the two per set)

Well that would be cool anyway to have equivalences between the races. It would be most aesthetic for diversity's sake. Regardless It would be a big issue amongst Klingon enthusiasts and hard-liners to have Orion's, Gorn, and Nausicans would be waltzing around in Klingon ships. Only rarely do non-Klingons board their ships (Spock and Kirk in V, Kirk and McCoy in VI, Riker in TNG, and Sauron in Generations). They tend to be segregated for whatever reason, most likely honor or brotherhood.

[EDITED PORTION]
Why couldn't they make up ships based off of seen designs or unseen ships? They have taken license to change things; so they can make ships up that match the race styles. I'd say that it is possible that they could do that to make the KDF more interesting. Where in Klingon lore do they share ships? If they mingle I'd foresee them accepting other ships from other races to fly with them, not command their ships much less serve aboard them.

On a side note, wouldn't the Chalnoth be another good race to add to the Klingon side?

[Manta2015]

Never have I seen so much speculation so condensed into one thread.

Great thoughts in general, I'll at least share the amount of frustration in how little we really know about the Klingons and their alliance =(


-Manta-

[Varrangian]

Question: where is the link to this statement because I've not heard that there is a confirmation that there is more than one Carrier (Vo'Quv)?

There is no link that specifically says it. It was published in the October 08 Game Informer article. A few months back in one of the Dev chats Craig basically confirmed carriers as a ship "role" in the Klingon faction when he said that Carriers would be Klingon only at launch because they wanted the keep the factions different and distinct.

In the Game Informer article it said Klingons would have Raiders, Cruisers and Carriers. It compared Carriers to Pet/tank hybrids in other MMOs.


Here's a thought as an example:

Heavy Cruiser (T1ish even with Federation Tier 1s)
-ship class 1 Klingon K'tinga
-ship class 2 Orion "Cruiser"
-ship class 3 Gorn Battle Cruiser (or Nausican go back and forth between the two per set)


The problem with this is that it does not fit how the Federation ships worked out. If you look at the Federation ship list and look at the Tier 2 Escort class you'll see the Akira and then the Norway. Note that when you click on the Norway it closely resembles the Akira. The Defiant and the Vigilant in the Tier 3 Escort are are the same way.

This is not because Cryptic is lazy. They clearly want to make it so that you can recognize the level and capabilities of the ship by simply looking at it. This is in fact kind of cool of them since, that is how submarines in WWII identified ships by their silhouettes.

[Faerlzress]

If they are not going to fill out the ships available to the Klingon faction with Orion, Gorn and Nausicaan types why are the Klingons even allied with them? Exactly why are the Klingons allowing these species to fly and captain their ships?

It seems it would make Cryptics life far easier as well to have a few ships from these races added in to fill out the Klingon list. This would allow them to create some designs from scratch to fill holes in the Klingon list instead of trying to make yet another Klingon bird of prey style.

[Acyl]

The problem with this is that it does not fit how the Federation ships worked out. If you look at the Federation ship list and look at the Tier 2 Escort class you'll see the Akira and then the Norway. Note that when you click on the Norway it closely resembles the Akira. The Defiant and the Vigilant in the Tier 3 Escort are are the same way.

This is not because Cryptic is lazy. They clearly want to make it so that you can recognize the level and capabilities of the ship by simply looking at it. This is in fact kind of cool of them since, that is how submarines in WWII identified ships by their silhouettes.

Yes, but you can still have Klingon, Gorn, and Orion ships in the same tier.

Let's say Klingon Birds of Prey are the Tier 2 Raider.

We could get Gorn and Orion ships in the same Tier that have the same general configuration - ie. a long neck and downward-sloping wings, with heavy cannons on the wingtips. They can have the same shape but still a different visual style.

[Varrangian]

Yes, but you can still have Klingon, Gorn, and Orion ships in the same tier.

Let's say Klingon Birds of Prey are the Tier 2 Raider.

We could get Gorn and Orion ships in the same Tier that have the same general configuration - ie. a long neck and downward-sloping wings, with heavy cannons on the wingtips. They can have the same shape but still a different visual style.

This is a possibility and so is the idea of "racial" modifications, but I'm just not sure how "unKlingon" they will look since visual distinctiveness seems to be their goal with each configuration.