View Full Version : What to do with the Bird of Prey?
USS_Parallax
10-02-2009, 04:50 PM
It comes in like several different sizes. It's by no means Tier 4 but has shown that it's incredibly useful. Tier 3? Tier 2? Tier 1? The D7 seems to be the Klingon Tier 0.
The.Grand.Nagus
10-02-2009, 04:53 PM
Well, the BOP is approximately equal to the TMP connie, so it should be whatever tier that is.
USS_Parallax
10-02-2009, 04:55 PM
The Bird of Prey has received huge refits though. I mean just 3 were giving a good fight to a Galaxy-class in TNG.
I'd say Tier 2.
OR the Klingons could be unique and have MORE ships on their side specifically because each tier has a different sized BoP like in the show. :p
The.Grand.Nagus
10-02-2009, 04:57 PM
The Bird of Prey has received huge refits though. I mean just 3 were giving a good fight to a Galaxy-class in TNG.
I'd say Tier 2.
OR the Klingons could be unique and have MORE ships on their side specifically because each tier has a different sized BoP like in the show. :p
SFC3 had two different versions of the BOP, the B'rel and the K'vort. The B'rel is the smaller with wings down, and is approximately equal to a frigate. The K'vort is larger with wings up and approximately equal to a light cruiser.
QuantaStarfire
10-02-2009, 04:59 PM
"What to do with the Bird of Prey?"
Fire phasers at it until it blows up. :P
USS_Parallax
10-02-2009, 05:15 PM
SFC3 had two different versions of the BOP, the B'rel and the K'vort. The B'rel is the smaller with wings down, and is approximately equal to a frigate. The K'vort is larger with wings up and approximately equal to a light cruiser.
And then they showed them at different scales.
Ex Astris does good with it:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/bop-size.htm
BreachAndClear
10-02-2009, 05:19 PM
What were the different Klingon ship types? Scout, cruiser, and carrier?
USS_Parallax
10-02-2009, 05:20 PM
Raider, Cruiser, Carrier.
BreachAndClear
10-02-2009, 05:20 PM
Then I'd imagine the BoP would be tier 1 raider.
Styles
10-02-2009, 05:24 PM
depends on the BoP a B'rel T1 a K'vort T3
overlordthor
10-02-2009, 05:29 PM
depends on the BoP a B'rel T1 a K'vort T3
I agree. But Kvort may be T2, and Brel might be T0, with the D7. I dont know.
Also, I imagine they will have a T4 version, which will be a modified version of the hull, and scaled up.
Styles
10-02-2009, 05:40 PM
We will probably get an upgraded version of the ENT BoP and I'm not sure how the Raptor fits into the whole thing.
BreachAndClear
10-02-2009, 05:45 PM
Well "Raider" makes me think hit and run. Rekhan (I think it was Rekhan anyway) said that the BoPs would be masters of cloaking. So I figure ships like the BoP that are nimble "attack, cloack, attack" ships will be Raiders. The Raptor in ENT I think was just a scouting ship. Maybe the raptor is a T1 or T2 cruiser?
Styles
10-02-2009, 05:48 PM
As a scout the Raptor shoudl be placed under Raider. I imagine there will be a Klingon, Nausican and Gorn ship in every line. I could be wrong af course its just a guess.
Varrangian
10-02-2009, 05:50 PM
Well "Raider" makes me think hit and run. Rekhan (I think it was Rekhan anyway) said that the BoPs would be masters of cloaking. So I figure ships like the BoP that are nimble "attack, cloack, attack" ships will be Raiders. The Raptor in ENT I think was just a scouting ship. Maybe the raptor is a T1 or T2 cruiser?
From the Raptor SoL post.
The Raptor class of the 22nd century was a small frigate intended for use as a scout ship. Its limited weapons and small crew compliment made it a ship for hit-and-run raids rather than extended conflicts
BanzaiZAP
10-02-2009, 05:50 PM
My Opinion:
D7 Tier 1 Cruiser
B'rel Tier 1 Raider
K'Tinga Tier 2 Cruiser
Raptor Tier 2 Raider
Vorcha Tier 3 Cruiser
K'Vort Tier 3 Raider
At least until we get more Klingon Ships of the Line!
BreachAndClear
10-02-2009, 05:52 PM
As a scout the Raptor shoudl be placed under Raider. I imagine there will be a Klingon, Nausican and Gorn ship in every line. I could be wrong af course its just a guess.
The Raptor was a scout, but it's armament and structure make me think of it akin to a much weaker cousin of the Vor'cha than to a nimble, ambush ship. I don't know. Just a guess.
A Nausicaan, Gorn, and Orion ship may indeed be present in every line alongside the Klingons. I figure the Negh'Var will be the T4 cruiser while maybe the Nausicaans have a T4 Raider (they were notable as pirates after all) and maybe the Orions or Gorn have the top line carrier. Again, just guessing.
EDIT: From the Raptor SoL post.
Well, then NvM :D
Styles
10-02-2009, 05:53 PM
Facing the increasing demands of Chancellor Martok and the Klingon High Council to create more ships in less time, the design teams at the shipyards of Ty'Gokor looked to the past for inspiration for new ships for the Empire.
It says ships so there is a chance for upgraded D5 and D12s
overlordthor
10-02-2009, 06:03 PM
Facing the increasing demands of Chancellor Martok and the Klingon High Council to create more ships in less time, the design teams at the shipyards of Ty'Gokor looked to the past for inspiration for new ships for the Empire.
It says ships so there is a chance for upgraded D5 and D12s
isnt the raptor based on much of the D5?
overlordthor
10-02-2009, 06:11 PM
And the D12, isnt that your basic B'rel Bird of Prey hull?
The 22nd century bird of prey was not a D12. the D12 was the one from Star Trek Generations.
Styles
10-02-2009, 06:11 PM
Nope its based on the Klingon Scout Ship from "Sleeping Dogs"
The D5 is a cruiser that looks a bit like a mix of a Raptor, D7 and BoP
D12:
http://drexfiles.wordpress.com/2009/06/17/ent-klingon-bird-of-prey/
D5:
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/D5_class
Archangelwoghd
10-02-2009, 06:18 PM
Well, the BOP is approximately equal to the TMP connie, so it should be whatever tier that is.
Kruge mentions that he is outgunned and outclassed by Kirk's ship. It's also significantly smaller. Of course that does not account for modern Birds of prey, but then we can assume that modern constitution-class starships would be upgraded as well. Additionally the BoP is scout class, so I would say it's a tier 0 ship. Maybe it will be what Klingons start out with.
Just my opinion.
Archangelwoghd
10-02-2009, 06:22 PM
SFC3 had two different versions of the BOP, the B'rel and the K'vort. The B'rel is the smaller with wings down, and is approximately equal to a frigate. The K'vort is larger with wings up and approximately equal to a light cruiser.
The wings move...
Also, the Devs have said somewhere that they will be a "Raider", which to me sounds small and weakish, but perhaps fast. I still place it at tier 0...
Varrangian
10-02-2009, 06:22 PM
Here is the thing that I'm trying to work out.
I do not think we will see ships from the Gorn, Naussicans, or Orions for the following reason.
If the Klingons break down like the Feds as follows
Lt.
T0 ships
Lt. Commander
T1 Raider
T1 Cruiser
T1 Carrier
Etc...
There is no room for other species ships, because all the Raiders T1 Raiders have to be of the same configuration, so let's say the Raptor is the T1 raider, then all the ships in that slot have the same hull silhouette.
Styles
10-02-2009, 06:23 PM
And the D12, isnt that your basic B'rel Bird of Prey hull?
The 22nd century bird of prey was not a D12. the D12 was the one from Star Trek Generations.
Ah yes I was wrong with the designation.
TruthSeer
10-02-2009, 06:25 PM
I agree with the idea that we should have both the B'rel and K'Vort.
Or Possibly just the K'Vort and make it a tier 2 Raider. The purpose of keeping you ships as you progress through the game is so you can go back and use previous ships. But what's the point of have both versions of the BoP? And anyone who picks up the B'rel is getting the K'Vort.
Nador_Ekoor
10-02-2009, 06:28 PM
I see the Klingon ships going more like this. There won't be as many ships to choose from and I don't know enough about Gorn, Orion, or Naussican vessels to add information there.
Tier 1
Raptor
B'rel BOP
Tier 2
D7-class
K'Vort BOP
Tier 3
K't'inga-class
Vor'cha
Tier 4
Negh'Var
Styles
10-02-2009, 06:30 PM
The wings move...
Also, the Devs have said somewhere that they will be a "Raider", which to me sounds small and weak, but perhaps fast. I still place it at tier 0...
That places the B'rel at T0, the Raptor could be at T1 or 2 and the K'vort if its not in the cruiser line on T2 or 3
Gorn, Orion and/or Nausican ships could fill the "gaps" in each line.
Edit: Because the K'vort is larger, has more crew, more armor, better shields, stronger weapons...
Nador_Ekoor
10-02-2009, 06:31 PM
Kruge mentions that he is outgunned and outclassed by Kirk's ship. It's also significantly smaller. Of course that does not account for modern Birds of prey, but then we can assume that modern constitution-class starships would be upgraded as well. Additionally the BoP is scout class, so I would say it's a tier 0 ship. Maybe it will be what Klingons start out with.
Just my opinion.
Star Fleet would only do minor upgrades to a ship class, they are constantly upgrading new lines and once the Constitution required a certain amount of upgrades it would be decommissioned and the crews assigned to new ships.
Varrangian
10-02-2009, 06:34 PM
The wings move...
Also, the Devs have said somewhere that they will be a "Raider", which to me sounds small and weakish, but perhaps fast. I still place it at tier 0...
Raider is a "role" likely similar to that of Escort. It will not be Tier 0 since as you saw with the Miranda, there were no tier 0 Escorts.
I see the Klingon ships going more like this. There won't be as many ships to choose from and I don't know enough about Gorn, Orion, or Naussican vessels to add information there.
Tier 1
Raptor
B'rel BOP
Tier 2
D7-class
K'Vort BOP
Tier 3
K't'inga-class
Vor'cha
Tier 4
Negh'Var
Am I the only one that understands the issue with "configuration" that Cryptic has put in place? Configuration is a basic hull silhouette that is shared by ever ship in a specific role/tier combination. Case in point the Defiant and Valiant or the Akira and Norway.
overlordthor
10-02-2009, 06:35 PM
I see the Klingon ships going more like this. There won't be as many ships to choose from and I don't know enough about Gorn, Orion, or Naussican vessels to add information there.
Tier 1
Raptor
B'rel BOP
Tier 2
D7-class
K'Vort BOP
Tier 3
K't'inga-class
Vor'cha
Tier 4
Negh'Var
Isnt the D7 stated to be a Starter ship? Making it equal to the Miranda?
The updated version of the Raptor, I might put it at least to T2 status. Its a raider style ship, so is the Brel, they just cant be in the same tier, up the Raptor.
And theres no way the K'tinga is equal to the Vorcha in teir, its basically the older version of the cruiser. They are both Cruisers. Maybe the K'vort or Raptor could be the Raider in the captain level.
Nador_Ekoor
10-02-2009, 06:37 PM
don't forget that
1. the ships for the Federation will have several ships from each tier. They will have warships, science ships, and cruisers. Each tier and type may have two or three choices...
2. With Klingon vessels primarily focused on battle and have a limited number of ships total, they will all be in the game...however in order to provide the balance that the Federation has the ships of the minor members of the Empire may have a single ship in each tier and will probably be support vessels with an extremely few warships (Gorn).
Varrangian
10-02-2009, 06:40 PM
don't forget that
1. the ships for the Federation will have several ships from each tier. They will have warships, science ships, and cruisers. Each tier and type may have two or three choices...
2. With Klingon vessels primarily focused on battle and have a limited number of ships total, they will all be in the game...however in order to provide the balance that the Federation has the ships of the minor members of the Empire may have a single ship in each tier and will probably be support vessels with an extremely few warships (Gorn).
The Klingons will have the following ship roles Raider, Cruiser and Carriers. This was confirmed long ago in the Game Informer Interview.
There is no reason to believe they will have a limited number of ships. There is every reason to believe that they will follow a similar organization as the Federation ships. With a total of 16 configurations broken over the 3 roles.
Styles
10-02-2009, 06:54 PM
here is a picture from the Gorn Raider in TOS-R: "Arena"
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schematics/alphabeta_ships2.htm
Varrangian
10-02-2009, 06:59 PM
here is a picture from the Gorn Raider in TOS-R: "Arena"
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schematics/gorn-4views.jpg
As much as I want to see Gorn Nausicaan and Orion ships the problem lies in the fact that if you given them their own ships you take away a Klingon hull design for that tier. Does what I'm saying make sense? If you look at the Captain rank and look at Escort you see the Defiant, Valiant and Gallant. All of those will look something like the Defiant. So it is reasonable to assume that the same will be done in the Klingon faction, so whatever tier the Raptor is in for the Raider class it will be accompanied by two other similar looking ships.
My reasoning for this is two fold. First, is the fact that it follows the organization methods used for the Federation ships. Second, if the Klingons get more diversity than the Feds think of the fits that will be thrown on the forums.
Styles
10-02-2009, 07:01 PM
I forgott to mention that the Gorn ship shares some design similarities with the Klingon BoP.
Nador_Ekoor
10-02-2009, 07:03 PM
Isnt the D7 stated to be a Starter ship? Making it equal to the Miranda?
The updated version of the Raptor, I might put it at least to T2 status. Its a raider style ship, so is the Brel, they just cant be in the same tier, up the Raptor.
And theres no way the K'tinga is equal to the Vorcha in teir, its basically the older version of the cruiser. They are both Cruisers. Maybe the K'vort or Raptor could be the Raider in the captain level.
Fire power and size are what I'm basing this off of. I think the Devs will include the K'Tinga with upgrades and it is bigger than the K'Vort, B'Rel, and Raptor.
D7 starter ship? I think I missed something here. It's possible, but I didn't think actual cruiser sized ships would be available in Tier 1.
It was just a guess though as Cryptic doesn't show Cardassian, Romulan, or Klingon love. They are only here to pamper the Federation.
Nador_Ekoor
10-02-2009, 07:07 PM
As much as I want to see Gorn Nausicaan and Orion ships the problem lies in the fact that if you given them their own ships you take away a Klingon hull design for that tier. Does what I'm saying make sense? If you look at the Captain rank and look at Escort you see the Defiant, Valiant and Gallant. All of those will look something like the Defiant. So it is reasonable to assume that the same will be done in the Klingon faction, so whatever tier the Raptor is in for the Raider class it will be accompanied by two other similar looking ships.
My reasoning for this is two fold. First, is the fact that it follows the organization methods used for the Federation ships. Second, if the Klingons get more diversity than the Feds think of the fits that will be thrown on the forums.
The Federation fans will whine anyway. They are already whining about cloaking...don't care if they have the best sensors in the game....They will whine that Klingon hulls are stronger, the Klingons have weapons, or even the color scheme for their bridges....like toddlers fighting for toys....just ignore them until game begins.
Styles
10-02-2009, 07:10 PM
I'm between the lines as I want to play both... and I'm not happy that I cant play as a Cardassian on a Galor Class ship
Varrangian
10-02-2009, 07:16 PM
I'm between the lines as I want to play both... and I'm not happy that I cant play as a Cardassian on a Galor Class ship
As am I... I will be playing both (Roddenberry willing they allow multiple toons in opposing factions). I really want to play a Romulan in one of those gorgeous Warbirds.
overlordthor
10-02-2009, 07:32 PM
Fire power and size are what I'm basing this off of. I think the Devs will include the K'Tinga with upgrades and it is bigger than the K'Vort, B'Rel, and Raptor.
D7 starter ship? I think I missed something here. It's possible, but I didn't think actual cruiser sized ships would be available in Tier 1.
It was just a guess though as Cryptic doesn't show Cardassian, Romulan, or Klingon love. They are only here to pamper the Federation.
Well, the Bird of Prey's all fit the designs of what we would call a "raider", also considered to be scouts at times, the faster lighter, maneuverable
The D7, Ktinga, and Vorcha, fit the cruiser style role in their respective eras. The Bird of Preys, maneuverable, fast, stealthy. The Raptor also fits that role, especially based on its description in Ship of the line. The D7 is comparable to the K'tinga, in their eras, they are the cruisers, to match up with Federation Cruisers, like the Constitution, they carry troops, and all that, much more well rounded. The Vorcha is the equivalent to the Galaxy, roughly, though of course, the Galaxy is a little better.
And yes, in an article about the game a while back the one doing the interview revealed the D7 and Miranda as Starter ships. I'd consider those 2 to be rough equivalents as well.
Archangelwoghd
10-02-2009, 08:26 PM
That places the B'rel at T0, the Raptor could be at T1 or 2 and the K'vort if its not in the cruiser line on T2 or 3
Gorn, Orion and/or Nausican ships could fill the "gaps" in each line.
Edit: Because the K'vort is larger, has more crew, more armor, better shields, stronger weapons...
I agree with this completely. Besides, most players would LOVE to have the B'rel as their starter ship, I think.
I have trouble placing a D7 below a B'rel...