To Boldly Go... where no MMO has gone before...

[Moment_of_Epiphany]

I'm going to put this out there (and many will say I am crazy) but... ...here goes.


Star Trek Online is an intellectual property that is philosophically far-removed from established game mechanics you typically see in an MMO. Levels. Classes. Experience Points are fantasy statistics hearkening back to Dungeons & Dragons. Simply, you can watch Legolas in Lord of the Rings and say he is 'epic' in his skill; but watch Will Riker playing his trombone and you cannot so easily determine his 'level' (ouch). Typical MMO terminology does not so easily 'fit' into the milieu of Star Trek sci-fi, where all the characters are human(oid) and it is the interplay of their humanity, which tells you an entertaining story.

Very Clever. What is your point?

I am suggesting... much of that traditional MMO terminology. Statistics? Levels? Experience Points?

STO does not need them.

Experience points? We don't need to know. Combat equations? Don't care. Proximity to next Rank? Surprise me, out of the blue.

I think the game would be better for hiding all such extraneous information away from us, because the gamer would be truer to its IP if we as players 'explored' the cosmos in blind, childlike wonder...

[Night_Hawke]

i personally derive great joy from learning and understanding the little nuances in the game systems statistic. Levels not so much experience not so much. But the stats are very interesting to me, also they do fit into Star Trek ships have a limited amount of power shields can only absorb so much before buckling the loss of crew does hurt the ships performance. star trek ships are very measurable vessels and stats can help us to utilize the ship at its peak.

i personally think a skill system like the one crytic is employing is good for this game, it allows us to be good at one thing and not so good at another without limiting us to try.

[williams.blaine]

STO does not need them.


That's a very good point. And from what we've seen so far, STO has already done a great job of dumping them all in the bin. Even so, every game has to have systems. The problem I see with current MMO systems is that the game gets bogged down in them. I think the trick is to overshadow the systems with well designed immersion. That way I don't care as much about getting those extra skill points as I do about finding out what happened on Cestius Prime...

[rogerwroten]

I'm going to put this out there (and many will say I am crazy) but... ...here goes.


Star Trek Online is an intellectual property that is philosophically far-removed from established game mechanics you typically see in an MMO. Levels. Classes. Experience Points are fantasy statistics hearkening back to Dungeons & Dragons. Simply, you can watch Legolas in Lord of the Rings and say he is 'epic' in his skill; but watch Will Riker playing his trombone and you cannot so easily determine his 'level' (ouch). Typical MMO terminology does not so easily 'fit' into the milieu of Star Trek sci-fi, where all the characters are human(oid) and it is the interplay of their humanity, which tells you an entertaining story.

Very Clever. What is your point?

I am suggesting... much of that traditional MMO terminology. Statistics? Levels? Experience Points?

STO does not need them.

Experience points? We don't need to know. Combat equations? Don't care. Proximity to next Rank? Surprise me, out of the blue.

I think the game would be better for hiding all such extraneous information away from us, because the gamer would be truer to its IP if we as players 'explored' the cosmos in blind, childlike wonder...

Actually, I would have to agree with you. Now the chances of this happening? Very Slim to none. :(

[The.Grand.Nagus]

Very Clever.

Not really. As to your point, the terms you refer to are not simply "fantasy" terms, they are GAME terms. And guess what? Regardless of the IP, STO is going to be a GAME. Both the Devs and the players are going to use terms that people understand and that apply to the industry. Sorry if you dont like it.

[sir_theodorik]

Genesis will change MMOs forever.
^my prediction

You are absolutely right at the end, we will explore with wonder. There will be stats, but we won't need to focus on it, we'll just ... play our role, a captain.

[Norexan-Guy]

STO can do away from displaying levels and experience but have stats like hull points/shield points, crews, as well as cargo hold capacity and "prestige points". I know I missed some more stats that would more or less be used (but would be used nonetheless)

[tburrfoot]

i can see it now....total anarchy....

i can captain this vessel...
you sure? i dont see cpatain in your list of abilities or name....
well yeah, i just started today and i did a few quests....i know i have enough to do this....
how do you know?
a hunch....it feels like i can.
well, this person next to you says they played for 5 weeks and wants to fly this vessel.
so whats makes them qualified?

your gonna need a level system of a sort....even the modern day military has it.

[idendesmerz]

It's right. Star Trek doesn't need levels but i has ranks it doesn't need stats, but it needs data. How much terrajoule does my shield absorb? For how long will my auxiliary power last? How fast can i fly?
And even in ground combat you have personal shields an waepons wich have a specific energy output.

I realy hope Cryptic doesn't use things like

Phaser Type II
12 dps
int +3


but

Phaser Type II
min. Energy Output 200 Joule
max. Energy Output 2 Megajoule

[rogerwroten]

Not really. As to your point, the terms you refer to are not simply "fantasy" terms, they are GAME terms. And guess what? Regardless of the IP, STO is going to be a GAME. Both the Devs and the players are going to use terms that people understand and that apply to the industry. Sorry if you dont like it.

So you are saying that these terms MUST be used by every game no matter what the Devs want? These terms are set in stone? :D

[Moment_of_Epiphany]

Not really. As to your point, the terms you refer to are not simply "fantasy" terms, they are GAME terms. And guess what? Regardless of the IP, STO is going to be a GAME. Both the Devs and the players are going to use terms that people understand and that apply to the industry. Sorry if you dont like it.

Got you to post! *tweaks The. Grand. Nagus' lobes and runs off*

:D

[Moment_of_Epiphany]

i can see it now....total anarchy....

i can captain this vessel...
you sure? i dont see cpatain in your list of abilities or name....
well yeah, i just started today and i did a few quests....i know i have enough to do this....
how do you know?
a hunch....it feels like i can.
well, this person next to you says they played for 5 weeks and wants to fly this vessel.
so whats makes them qualified?

your gonna need a level system of a sort....even the modern day military has it.

I think the game would be better for hiding all such extraneous information away from us, because the gamer would be truer to its IP if we as players 'explored' the cosmos in blind, childlike wonder...

Emboldened for emphasis. And I do agree some statistics are useful.

[Malakili]

I think the game would be better for hiding all such extraneous information away from us, because the gamer would be truer to its IP if we as players 'explored' the cosmos in blind, childlike wonder...


Leading to a game that plays like this: http://www.picturesforsadchildren.com/index.php?comicID=290

I agree that it sounds amazing sitting here thinking about it, but when you think about it actually ins and outs of such a system, it would make for a terrible game

[Archangelwoghd]

I'm going to put this out there (and many will say I am crazy) but... ...here goes.


Star Trek Online is an intellectual property that is philosophically far-removed from established game mechanics you typically see in an MMO. Levels. Classes. Experience Points are fantasy statistics hearkening back to Dungeons & Dragons. Simply, you can watch Legolas in Lord of the Rings and say he is 'epic' in his skill; but watch Will Riker playing his trombone and you cannot so easily determine his 'level' (ouch). Typical MMO terminology does not so easily 'fit' into the milieu of Star Trek sci-fi, where all the characters are human(oid) and it is the interplay of their humanity, which tells you an entertaining story.

Very Clever. What is your point?

I am suggesting... much of that traditional MMO terminology. Statistics? Levels? Experience Points?

STO does not need them.

Experience points? We don't need to know. Combat equations? Don't care. Proximity to next Rank? Surprise me, out of the blue.

I think the game would be better for hiding all such extraneous information away from us, because the gamer would be truer to its IP if we as players 'explored' the cosmos in blind, childlike wonder...

I could not agree with this more.
I hope Cryptic reads this...

[tburrfoot]

I think the game would be better for hiding all such extraneous information away from us, because the gamer would be truer to its IP if we as players 'explored' the cosmos in blind, childlike wonder...

Emboldened for emphasis. And I do agree some statistics are useful.

im gonna have to ask you then how you see things...maybe i am over thinking your post.

[Varrangian]

I think the game would be better for hiding all such extraneous information away from us, because the gamer would be truer to its IP if we as players 'explored' the cosmos in blind, childlike wonder...

Emboldened for emphasis. And I do agree some statistics are useful.

So when they came to Riker time and time again to offer him a promotion (a level up) he was caught completely unaware that he had earned one? I doubt it.

So when Worf calculated the power of his enemy through a scan (i.e. conning and combat equations) he was filled with childlike wonderment?

I'm sorry, but your suggestion doesn't even hold water for the "real" Trek. People knew their level, people knew the levels of their enemies in Trek.

[Moment_of_Epiphany]

Leading to a game that plays like this: http://www.picturesforsadchildren.com/index.php?comicID=290

I agree that it sounds amazing sitting here thinking about it, but when you think about it actually ins and outs of such a system, it would make for a terrible game

Funny strip. But no, I don't think it would be the same. To reiterate, Star Trek Online is a game where you need to immerse yourself in the enviroment. What I am suggesting, is that statistics need to be dialled down a notch (-1 or more) so that immersion can be increased (+1 or more).

Obviously there are limits as to what makes a good game. What Perzel said about data put it well.

It's right. Star Trek doesn't need levels but it has ranks. it doesn't need stats, but it needs data.

I realy hope Cryptic doesn't use things like

Phaser Type II
12 dps
int +3

but

Phaser Type II
min. Energy Output 200 Joule
max. Energy Output 2 Megajoule

[Archangelwoghd]

im gonna have to ask you then how you see things...maybe i am over thinking your post.

It's simple, instead of worringing about your next point in some skill to get to some arbitrary level, you will be playing the game as a living organic being, which is much better.

[Archangelwoghd]

So when they came to Riker time and time again to offer him a promotion (a level up) he was caught completely unaware that he had earned one? I doubt it.

So when Worf calculated the power of his enemy through a scan (i.e. conning and combat equations) he was filled with childlike wonderment?

I'm sorry, but your suggestion doesn't even hold water for the "real" Trek. People knew their level, people knew the levels of their enemies in Trek.


Gotta disagree my friend,
1. Riker NEVER knew the precise moment that he was going to be offered a promotion, or indeed if he had turned them down so many times that they would no longer offer him one.

2. Worf can scan energy levels and what-not and STILL be decieved, as happened countless times in the various shows. A ships apparent engine power says nothing about the ability of it's Captain, like it could in an MMORPG, where the ships do not become available until the player is at a certain "Level"

3. Back to Riker, no Captain would ever turn down a promotion in an MMORPG, especially if the player knew it would "unlock" new ships and abilities.

Yes, hide the background stats from us, and let us play an organic game. A game where one may advance by turning down a promotion. I like that. I like that alot.

[Norexan-Guy]

But since phasers could be fired continuously as long as there is energy in the power cell, ground equipment would rather look like:

Phaser II:
Minimum power: 200 W
Maximum power: 2 MW

Also, if it was possible, could the game randomly assign a # of "skill points" as rewards?

[Kaybok]

I agree - I don't need to see stats and xp to next level. But we already know we will see skill points and how many points we have spent on skill trees. It's in there and it's not a game breaker. If you want immersion use RP for that.

"Ok, guys. Jeff is on his NX9 he has engin BO's max'd & fp to shields - he is MT. He'll go in 1st and pull the cube. Sci's be ready to chain heal Jeff. T3-4 Cs follow Jeff in. DPS, *wait* until he has agro. Ready?? Engage!"

If stats ruin immersion for you then the above will too and I bet you will see similar talk LOL. Get ready for it.

[Varrangian]

Gotta disagree my friend,
1. Riker NEVER knew the precise moment that he was going to be offered a promotion, or indeed if he had turned them down so many times that they would no longer offer him one.

2. Worf can scan energy levels and what-not and STILL be decieved, as happened countless times in the various shows. A ships apparent engine power says nothing about the ability of it's Captain, like it could in an MMORPG, where the ships do not become available until the player is at a certain "Level"

3. Back to Riker, no Captain would ever turn down a promotion in an MMORPG, especially if the player knew it would "unlock" new ships and abilities.

1.Oh come on that's semantic. Riker knew he had earned a promotion.

2. Check out numerous examples of where Worf or someone else can give you the exact energy reading of the enemy weapons, how is that different from conning a mob?

3. We specifically have the ability to "delay" promotion in this MMO, they said so in the last series of ask cryptic. And Riker was often chastised for turning down his promotion. People who do that in the real military often do not last much longer. So here is an example of where Trek is unrealistic.

[Moment_of_Epiphany]

Hiding Experience Points - Yet Building Rewarding Moments into the Game

- Do your duty. Get a commendation. No XP message! (Minor XP award)
- Perform bravely. Earn a Star of Meritous Conduct. No XP message! (Medium XP award)
- Perform Above and Beyond. Earn a Purple Heart no Xp message! (Large XP award)

I am sure a better informed person than myself can recommend actual Star Fleet lore medals here. I am sure someone of Military service can suggest proper terminology for combat awards / service medals.

Does it make sense, what I am hinting at here? Experience points are not required. What we need are commendations, medals, awards, and campaign ribbons. These will add a true history to our Captains, especially if you actually get to see them worn on your dress-uniform!

I don't know how many of you played the fabulous Wing Commander series, but that had a medal case, as did X-Wing. Both fabulous games.

[tburrfoot]

I agree - I don't need to see stats and xp to next level. But we already know we will see skill points and how many points we have spent on skill trees. It's in there and it's not a game breaker. If you want immersion use RP for that.

"Ok, guys. Jeff is on his NX9 he has engin BO's max'd & fp to shields - he is MT. He'll go in 1st and pull the cube. Sci's be ready to chain heal Jeff. T3-4 Cs follow Jeff in. DPS, *wait* until he has agro. Ready?? Engage!"

If stats ruin immersion for you then the above will too and I bet you will see similar talk LOL. Get ready for it.

this is where i see things...

if you mean actual in game visuals of progression (i.e. 34% to go TNL) via bar graph, then yes, i am all for disabling this.
but stats are what make the game definable.
if a phaser (since you all use the item to refer to) has a range of x to x, then arguments would ensue about the ability of your phaser verses your opponents.

again, visual indicators for TNL, etc, i can see not having in view, but if i have a phaser that is set to x damage then i expect to see the dmg done at that setting, not a possible range. cant phasers be set anyway? and not a guesstimate range?

[Varrangian]

Hiding Experience Points - Yet Building Rewarding Moments into the Game

- Do your duty. Get a commendation. No XP message! (Minor XP award)
- Perform bravely. Earn a Star of Meritous Conduct. No XP message! (Medium XP award)
- Perform Above and Beyond. Earn a Purple Heart no Xp message! (Large XP award)

I am sure a better informed person than myself can recommend actual Star Fleet lore medals here. I am sure someone of Military service can suggest proper terminology for combat awards / service medals.

Does it make sense, what I am hinting at here? Experience points are not required. What we need are commendations, medals, awards, and campaign ribbons. These will add a true history to our Captains, especially if you actually get to see them worn on your dress-uniform!

I don't know how many of you played the fabulous Wing Commander series, but that had a medal case, as did X-Wing. Both fabulous games.

And you don't think that someone is going to figure out some equation for "every sixth medal and four commendation" we get promoted? People are going to use whatever measurement guides they give us to track their progress. People do this just as much in real life as they do in games.

Here is a better option. Allow people like you who don't like it to turn off th XP bar. There problem solved.

[Archangelwoghd]

"Ok, guys. Jeff is on his NX9 he has engin BO's max'd & fp to shields - he is MT. He'll go in 1st and pull the cube. Sci's be ready to chain heal Jeff. T3-4 Cs follow Jeff in. DPS, *wait* until he has agro. Ready?? Engage!"




GAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

I think I just threw up a little bit in my mouth.
That's freakin' horrible. Hiding stats would eliminate a lot of that sort of thing I think.


Gawd that's awful.

[tburrfoot]

Hiding Experience Points - Yet Building Rewarding Moments into the Game

- Do your duty. Get a commendation. No XP message! (Minor XP award)
- Perform bravely. Earn a Star of Meritous Conduct. No XP message! (Medium XP award)
- Perform Above and Beyond. Earn a Purple Heart no Xp message! (Large XP award)

I am sure a better informed person than myself can recommend actual Star Fleet lore medals here. I am sure someone of Military service can suggest proper terminology for combat awards / service medals.

Does it make sense, what I am hinting at here? Experience points are not required. What we need are commendations, medals, awards, and campaign ribbons. These will add a true history to our Captains, especially if you actually get to see them worn on your dress-uniform!

I don't know how many of you played the fabulous Wing Commander series, but that had a medal case, as did X-Wing. Both fabulous games.

now it makes sense...
YES - i would also agree with this kind of reward system.
i enjoyed wing commander because of it as well as gunship 2000.

[Night_Hawke]

GAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

I think I just threw up a little bit in my mouth.
That's freakin' horrible. Hiding stats would eliminate a lot of that sort of thing I think.


Gawd that's awful.

hiding stats will *not* stop any of that.

[Thibor]

Perhaps simply an option to hide such information would be better.
If you don't want to get hung up on your rank, or delve into the stats of this type of armor or that type of phaser, then you could turn the visibility off.
For those that enjoy digging into the minutia, let them have it.

For me, those types of details is often what helps focus on a goal in a game.

I can understand that for some, getting into that aspect of "the game" may lower the immersion level for them. However, can you understand that wanting to see that information makes a game more enjoyable for others?

[Varrangian]

hiding stats will *not* stop any of that.

QFE, people who game like that will also find ways to game like that.

[Profedius]

I for one would like to get away from the are you spec’ed for this then you can join our group and this is your role within our group thing. The knowing just what I need to earn in order to make the next level becomes annoying since my focus becomes less on playing the game and more on doing what must be done to make it to the next level. Give me some good quest/mission stories and a huge world to explore that is all I really want rank is just a bonus.

[Moment_of_Epiphany]

And you don't think that someone is going to figure out some equation for "every sixth medal and four commendation" we get promoted? People are going to use whatever measurement guides they give us to track their progress. People do this just as much in real life as they do in games.

Here is a better option. Allow people like you who don't like it to turn off th XP bar. There problem solved.

*plays his trump card -- Tholian web*

Aha. A very good suggestion. Being able to turn off the XP bar.

But, why not both? Why not a revealed XP progress for those who want it? No XP progression for those who don't? And medals, because, it is an opportunity to explore / reinforce another facet of Star Trek lore? C'mon, you could even have a competition to design & name medals open to the community - some might find that fun! :D

[tburrfoot]

simply seeing you in a tier 2 unit will tell enough to some players to determine basic stats.
even if you can do tier 3, the minimum your in is a 2 and some people are very good at knowing the minimums and the defenses or offenses against.
while not as true to nature as an gear type MMO, there will be similarities to use to base decisions off of.

[Archangelwoghd]

QFE, people who game like that will also find ways to game like that.

Sadly, you are correct. People who game like that will always do it on one level or another...

As for turning off the stat bar, how about a choice between measuring your progress with stats, or using medals? (You can't have both) This would make everyone happy I think, and encourage people to play in a more Trek-like way. I personally would rather get a medal at the end of a mission.

[Varrangian]

Sadly, you are correct. People who game like that will always do it on one level or another...

As for turning off the stat bar, how about a choice between measuring your progress with stats, or using medals? (You can't have both) This would make everyone happy I think, and encourage people to play in a more Trek-like way. I personally would rather get a medal at the end of a mission.

From what has been said "medal" will be called accolades in STO and will be open to everyone regardless of how they choose to track their progression.

[Moment_of_Epiphany]

Sadly, you are correct. People who game like that will always do it on one level or another...

As for turning off the stat bar, how about a choice between measuring your progress with stats, or using medals? (You can't have both) This would make everyone happy I think, and encourage people to play in a more Trek-like way. I personally would rather get a medal at the end of a mission.

It was said best earlier. There are statistics you need. And statistics you don't. Everybody needs good data.

And to clarify: Medals, ribbons and awards, as suggested by me, are a visual representation / alternative representation of Experience Points. So you could have both, if the XP reward system could be toggled on / off. :)

[Kaybok]

I'm an old gamer, used to RP on text-based muds before the graphical MMOs were out. When you advanced everything was described in text. Only the wizards (Devs / GMs) knew the numbers behind things. It worked and it was a fully immersive universe. It can be done but we have been spoiled on statistics, game mechanics and formulae.

There's statistics we need, I agree. But if lots of numbers were hid from the player then I expect to see posts on how Cryptic has not explained their system enough and how it's confusing, etc LOL. I support an option that hides the information in text but shows the numbers on a different tab (similar to combat tab).

[klingon1021]

I personally would not want to see how many pts to my next promotion, or how many xps I got from the last mission, suprise me make it a cerimony type cutaway and show your next ship in dry dock waiting for the final touches from you.

[DarkOrion69]

Imho, all we need for game play in STO is rank, skills, and a good ship with a star to steer her by :)

[Xenoshaft]

I'm going to put this out there (and many will say I am crazy) but... ...here goes.


Star Trek Online is an intellectual property that is philosophically far-removed from established game mechanics you typically see in an MMO. Levels. Classes. Experience Points are fantasy statistics hearkening back to Dungeons & Dragons. Simply, you can watch Legolas in Lord of the Rings and say he is 'epic' in his skill; but watch Will Riker playing his trombone and you cannot so easily determine his 'level' (ouch). Typical MMO terminology does not so easily 'fit' into the milieu of Star Trek sci-fi, where all the characters are human(oid) and it is the interplay of their humanity, which tells you an entertaining story.

Very Clever. What is your point?

I am suggesting... much of that traditional MMO terminology. Statistics? Levels? Experience Points?

STO does not need them.

Experience points? We don't need to know. Combat equations? Don't care. Proximity to next Rank? Surprise me, out of the blue.

I think the game would be better for hiding all such extraneous information away from us, because the gamer would be truer to its IP if we as players 'explored' the cosmos in blind, childlike wonder...

I really can see both sides of this..

[Ix-ion]

Imho, all we need for game play in STO is rank, skills, and a good ship with a star to steer her by :)

Amen !

Many a game has been ruined by people "cracking the code" as it were. Instead of a vibrant game environment, the game was turned into a min/max-fest.

[Norexan-Guy]

What games became a min/max-fest? CoH? CO? WoW?

[Peregrine_Falcon]

The developers have said that the UI is going to be 'highly customizable'.

I think that having a 'No Numbers' option, where the computer then hides the window with the crunchy numbers is great idea! That way those who want to explore with "childlike wonder" can do so, and those that want to yell to their friends in vent, "Hey, only 1,503 XP until I make Commander! W00t!", can also have their fun.

More options is always better, not less.

[TheGoldenDonut]

milieu

...

Ugh....

[Night_Hawke]

Amen !

Many a game has been ruined by people "cracking the code" as it were. Instead of a vibrant game environment, the game was turned into a min/max-fest.

so...

the developers of a game decide to put the best stats on this single piece of gear leading to everyone wearing it and somehow thats the "peoples" fault? People like to be the best characters its not their fault that the dev's decided that they all had to look the same to achieve that.

[thefreshjedi]

I'm going to put this out there (and many will say I am crazy) but... ...here goes.


Star Trek Online is an intellectual property that is philosophically far-removed from established game mechanics you typically see in an MMO. Levels. Classes. Experience Points are fantasy statistics hearkening back to Dungeons & Dragons. Simply, you can watch Legolas in Lord of the Rings and say he is 'epic' in his skill; but watch Will Riker playing his trombone and you cannot so easily determine his 'level' (ouch). Typical MMO terminology does not so easily 'fit' into the milieu of Star Trek sci-fi, where all the characters are human(oid) and it is the interplay of their humanity, which tells you an entertaining story.

Very Clever. What is your point?

I am suggesting... much of that traditional MMO terminology. Statistics? Levels? Experience Points?

STO does not need them.

Experience points? We don't need to know. Combat equations? Don't care. Proximity to next Rank? Surprise me, out of the blue.

I think the game would be better for hiding all such extraneous information away from us, because the gamer would be truer to its IP if we as players 'explored' the cosmos in blind, childlike wonder...



No thanks, give me established goals, benchmarks, and something that I can measure scientifically. I want an avatar which I can relate to, but not "live" with. If I wanted a "real experience" I'd go create a character and series of my own in Second Life, I'm sure someone already has.

I don't mind some sandboxing tools to customize my experience, but I want a world which reads more like a linear story, with the option to do my own thing or experience things as I wish, when I wish, but then bring me back around to over-arching story again. What's more is that you're offering an experience that doesn't allow the player to feel like anything but an entity floating about in space with no purpose.

Although I can appreciate the notion of "child-like wonder", to use your terminology, the caveat is to have a strong and loving parent nearby to guide the child on a path of some sort. Information doesn't exist in a vacuum, and neither can humans, although what you're suggesting sounds intrigueing, given the relative age an immaturity of the vast majority of online gamers, not to mention human nature in general, I can see a lot of potential for abuses, subtle or blatant in a gaming enviroment like you describe.

Sorry...

-avery

[RE-Kirk]

No thanks, give me established goals, benchmarks, and something that I can measure scientifically. I want an avatar which I can relate to, but not "live" with. If I wanted a "real experience" I'd go create a character and series of my own in Second Life, I'm sure someone already has.

I don't mind some sandboxing tools to customize my experience, but I want a world which reads more like a linear story, with the option to do my own thing or experience things as I wish, when I wish, but then bring me back around to over-arching story again. What's more is that you're offering an experience that doesn't allow the player to feel like anything but an entity floating about in space with no purpose.

Although I can appreciate the notion of "child-like wonder", to use your terminology, the caveat is to have a strong and loving parent nearby to guide the child on a path of some sort. Information doesn't exist in a vacuum, and neither can humans, although what you're suggesting sounds intrigueing, given the relative age an immaturity of the vast majority of online gamers, not to mention human nature in general, I can see a lot of potential for abuses, subtle or blatant in a gaming enviroment like you describe.

Sorry...

-avery

not to mention that few investors are going to give money to an unproven model.

Keep it WOW and the money will flow... as much as it pains me that is the mmo world we live in

[Archangelwoghd]

I'm an old gamer, used to RP on text-based muds before the graphical MMOs were out. When you advanced everything was described in text. Only the wizards (Devs / GMs) knew the numbers behind things. It worked and it was a fully immersive universe. It can be done but we have been spoiled on statistics, game mechanics and formulae.

There's statistics we need, I agree. But if lots of numbers were hid from the player then I expect to see posts on how Cryptic has not explained their system enough and how it's confusing, etc LOL. I support an option that hides the information in text but shows the numbers on a different tab (similar to combat tab).

Having a similar background, I agree completely.

[Archangelwoghd]

If I wanted a "real experience" I'd go create a character and series of my own in Second Life,


Look at Second life...they are making MILLIONS, and do not underestimate the fans that want a "real experience" I guarantee to you that STO will remain successful as long as the startrek fans are happy with the game...and not one second longer.

[Ix-ion]

so...

the developers of a game decide to put the best stats on this single piece of gear leading to everyone wearing it and somehow thats the "peoples" fault? People like to be the best characters its not their fault that the dev's decided that they all had to look the same to achieve that.

Now before my statement is twisted any further and get flamed for expressing my observation, I want you all to know where I am coming from with my previous statement.

I am an idealist...

I was with SWG (pre-NGE) and I AM with STO. Even moreso with this game simply because I personally like the Star Trek storyline better.

All I am saying is I hope this game is not like others where gamers are judged by how "uber" their gear is, how much of the "uber gear" you own, and how many times per week you are available to "farm" the end-game content, and the attitude that somehow, people are better because they can get those things.

Now, some people like to have the best items, ships, etc. the game has to offer and I am not knocking those that prefer that, so don't twist my meaning there. I myself love to have the "good stuff".

What I don't like is the elitist attitudes that some people take towards such things. Instead of merely playing a game for the sake of simple enjoyment, it becomes a mad-dash to the end-game content. Some people come across as thinking that the end-game is all that matters. That is why there are websites out there that give walkthroughs to missions, where to get (or craft) the best gear so they can reign-supreme in PvP.

I personally could care less about how uber my gear is, how big my ship is, and how much I can own in PvP because I know that my "Abilities" are maxxed out because I went to X-instance and farmed enough there to get X-amount of bonuses to Y-stats and can therefore defeat someone's Z-counter to my abilities with ease, and then talk smack about it.

Now I may be mistaken, but it is my understanding that this game is open-ended, meaning that there really isn't an end-game as it were. All I am trying to say in the end is I came here to enjoy the game and hopefully role-play both the Starfleet and Klingon sides in the storylines.

[Norexan-Guy]

The game ideals of non-elitist players will fall apart whenever the first players will actually get to the end-game content. By then (it could be one to two months, who knows...) the first websites dedicated to farming aid will be completed and STO, no matter how good it will be otherwise, will have more or less a culture of equipment envy.

[Malakili]

Funny strip. But no, I don't think it would be the same. To reiterate, Star Trek Online is a game where you need to immerse yourself in the enviroment. What I am suggesting, is that statistics need to be dialled down a notch (-1 or more) so that immersion can be increased (+1 or more).

Obviously there are limits as to what makes a good game. What Perzel said about data put it well.

I have no problem with that. But I was responding to the idea that we should just be flying around experiencing the galaxy. If what you are arguing is a better disguising of item stats to make them fit with the game world, thats fine.

[Night_Hawke]

Now before my statement is twisted any further and get flamed for expressing my observation, I want you all to know where I am coming from with my previous statement.

I am an idealist...

I was with SWG (pre-NGE) and I AM with STO. Even moreso with this game simply because I personally like the Star Trek storyline better.

All I am saying is I hope this game is not like others where gamers are judged by how "uber" their gear is, how much of the "uber gear" you own, and how many times per week you are available to "farm" the end-game content, and the attitude that somehow, people are better because they can get those things.

Now, some people like to have the best items, ships, etc. the game has to offer and I am not knocking those that prefer that, so don't twist my meaning there. I myself love to have the "good stuff".

What I don't like is the elitist attitudes that some people take towards such things. Instead of merely playing a game for the sake of simple enjoyment, it becomes a mad-dash to the end-game content. Some people come across as thinking that the end-game is all that matters. That is why there are websites out there that give walkthroughs to missions, where to get (or craft) the best gear so they can reign-supreme in PvP.

I personally could care less about how uber my gear is, how big my ship is, and how much I can own in PvP because I know that my "Abilities" are maxxed out because I went to X-instance and farmed enough there to get X-amount of bonuses to Y-stats and can therefore defeat someone's Z-counter to my abilities with ease, and then talk smack about it.

Now I may be mistaken, but it is my understanding that this game is open-ended, meaning that there really isn't an end-game as it were. All I am trying to say in the end is I came here to enjoy the game and hopefully role-play both the Starfleet and Klingon sides in the storylines.

i agree with much of what you said here, however it was not the same as what i replied to previously. :)

[Ix-ion]

Perhaps I am merely misunderstanding your statement. All is well :)

[Night_Hawke]

Perhaps I am merely misunderstanding your statement. All is well :)

well, your original statement was that people where ruining the vibrant game environment with min/maxing. So i concluded that the main way that min/maxing could effect the game environment was everyone pursuing endgame gear. which typically makes everyone the same so that they are the best they can be, all looking the same with the same builds. but i don't see that as player problems when the devs make the gear that way.

but it seems you where implying their need to be immature a-holes. well that i don't think the dev's can fix. as long as the game has anyway to progress or tweak your characters ability aholes will be aholes.

[tburrfoot]

what about demotions?
is this a concept that has been taken into account?

[Varrangian]

what about demotions?
is this a concept that has been taken into account?

Outside of Kirk being dropped back to Captain from Admiral have we seen any other demotions? Honestly in the real military the likelihood is that they'd drum you out before the demote you. I think most demotions are very special case things.

[tburrfoot]

Outside of Kirk being dropped back to Captain from Admiral have we seen any other demotions? Honestly in the real military the likelihood is that they'd drum you out before the demote you. I think most demotions are very special case things.

there are reductions in rank lots of times in the military.
more on the NCO and below realm, but still....
meh - i guess negative xp points would be the norm if you failed or went outside the starfleet mandate and rules....
i just think it may add depth to the game....oh well.

[sandman105]

Outside of Kirk being dropped back to Captain from Admiral have we seen any other demotions? Honestly in the real military the likelihood is that they'd drum you out before the demote you. I think most demotions are very special case things.

There was a Seargent First Class that was demoted down to a Private First Class in my unit while I was in the Army.... I believed it had something to do with him taking a lead pipe and beating some one with it while he was in desert storm. Thats the only case of a demotion that i know of.

[ghall]

Outside of Kirk being dropped back to Captain from Admiral have we seen any other demotions? Honestly in the real military the likelihood is that they'd drum you out before the demote you. I think most demotions are very special case things.

Janeway busted Tom Paris back to ensign when he tried to shutdown the refineries on the water world.

[Sinclair]

Interesting point in the OP.

I think the dev team has already headed in this direction with a skills based instead of levels based system, and the fact that abilies are related to bridge crew and gear moreso than some perceived level.