This thread was moved before, please rediscuss

[Lykotion]

This THREAD is PARTICULAR to STAR TREK: ONLINE and contains issues that affect the development of this game based on a particular case study from Cryptic title: "Champions Online" t.m.


Hello, I played Champions Online....

I REALLY hope THIS Cryptic team is learning from the mistakes of THAT team: Champions Online (CO).

These are issues that ought not pop up on STO if we're lucky.
Champions Online (CO) is currently suffering from:

- UNREALISTIC/INFEASIBILE way to respec talents/abilities (CO's biggest current complaint) that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

Further the game is currently suffering from: (in no particular order)

--an inappropriate XP reward from MOBS AND MISSIONS/QUESTS

--a gap between low level content missions to endgame missions, MUST have more in-between content

-- Uninspired PvP with equally uninspired rewards.

--a general lack of endgame content

--a non functional auction house (probably one of the worst I've seen in an MMO)

--unclear tooltips and unexplained effects that are often confusing, misleading, or omitting.

--limited crafting effects

--a number of broken powers associated with certain frameworks (example = Personal Protection Field)


These are what I've personally noticed from playing this game in it's "release state" since its release. If the STO team can create something not half-baked, I would love it!

I love Star Trek, I DO NOT want it released with the problems mentioned above.

signed,

Steve, PA.USA

[Varrangian]

It was moved for a reason. Deal with it.

[mezlabor]

- UNREALISTIC/INFEASIBILE way to respec talents/abilities (CO's biggest current complaint) that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Easily fixed

Further the game is currently suffering from: (in no particular order)

--an inappropriate XP reward from MOBS AND MISSIONS/QUESTS Easily Fixed

--a gap between low level content missions to endgame missions, MUST have more in-between content I agree with you here and honestly this is a more serious problem then the respec issue the respec issue is easily fixed this one will take more effort effort that should have already been done.

-- Uninspired PvP with equally uninspired rewards. This is cryptic we're talking about rewarding meaningful pvp has never been their bag. I would count on seeing more lame pvp.

--a general lack of endgame content
Again this is Cryptic we're talking about here. City of heroes Sufferred from the same issue and it seems they haven't learned with CO I doubt they will learn for sto.

The auction house I have no idea abotu and the rest of the stuff are just early mmo bugs they will be sorted out in due time.

[Lykotion]

Then please copy or improve upon existing models! I LOVE Star Trek, it's depth is incredible and can easily rival any non-canon WoW novel....we have the best canon!

[Trowa824]

Can we deleted this post again?

[mezlabor]

Actually I think it's important to examine CO it shares the same underlying engine. The performance issues CO is having on some systems could bleed into this game if Cryptic can't resolve it.

[Lykotion]

Can we deleted this post again?

Really? you want to delete a post that goes after flaws from the same company on a game YOU want down the line and will pay $15 a month for? okay...

[Musterion]

Actually I think it's important to examine CO it shares the same underlying engine. The performance issues CO is having on some systems could bleed into this game if Cryptic can't resolve it.

Aye - they have some weird lag issues which theyd outright fixed with one patch, but a server outage has borked that and it's only been getting worse with every patch :(

[mezlabor]

Aye - they have some weird lag issues which theyd outright fixed with one patch, but a server outage has borked that and it's only been getting worse with every patch :(

My GF plays CO and she's been complaining about the performance. As she told me She WANTS to like the game.

[Drexxus3d]

It's not wise to repost an identical thread after a mod decided to move it, that's just asking for trouble.

As the mod said, it's about CO not STO, and it's mostly just a complaint post anyway.

[Lykotion]

It's not wise to repost an identical thread after a mod decided to move it, that's just asking for trouble.

As the mod said, it's about CO not STO, and it's mostly just a complaint post anyway.

I WILL NOT accept that argument, these are lessons that any humble developer will learn from their COGNATE agency, their funded half....STO you MUST learn from the CO team

[ransomwk]

I WILL NOT accept that argument, these are lessons that any humble developer will learn from their COGNATE agency, their funded half....STO you MUST learn from the CO team

A simple repost probably wont do you any good. I do feel this is a legitimate STO related thread which merits discussion, but some rephrasing would have been helpful. Something to help make it clear that this is regarding how the STO team can learn from their colleagues down the hall.

On that subject, I have read a lot of rather negative reviews of CO, and I really hope that the STO folks are listening and taking steps to avoid repeats of the same issues.

[Lykotion]

the conversation stays: Star Trek deserves hard argument such as this

[topekaguy1988]

Dude, no offense but you are setting yourself up for trouble.

[DeathCarrot]

I WILL NOT accept that argument, these are lessons that any humble developer will learn from their COGNATE agency, their funded half....STO you MUST learn from the CO team

The original thread was not erased or removed or censored it was simply move to the appropriate forum. This does not mean the devs won't read or heed our warnings, but Re posting this just make you look like a troll and does not help your cause. As for the technical issues you are having with CO you might find the CO PC troubleshooting forum a better place to find help.

[Lykotion]

A simple repost probably wont do you any good. I do feel this is a legitimate STO related thread which merits discussion, but some rephrasing would have been helpful. Something to help make it clear that this is regarding how the STO team can learn from their colleagues down the hall.

On that subject, I have read a lot of rather negative reviews of CO, and I really hope that the STO folks are listening and taking steps to avoid repeats of the same issues.

We have to know at least that they are learning from C.O. This conversation was moved at one point, but we MUST know that they are least paying attention. We don't WANT a power-by-power re-spend on talents/abilities

[Liberty]

I feel this thread has some relevance. It seems that Champions Online cookie cutter copied alot of stuff from City of Heros. I feel STO has done a wonderful job with the space combat but unfortunately I feel that they have taken a shortcut with the ground combat which looks little more than a COH/CO clone with with Federation and Klingon skins. Perhaps they feel that this is the -style- that all Cryptic games should have for combat. I really dislike the idea that its okay to stand in the middle of the open and shoot and each other point blank or get hit with melee weapons just because your shields are holding up. Bad tactics. Bad concept. Maybe okay for a superhero game where players are more like demi gods instead of a simple race but not for Star Trek. If someone has a weapon, you in reality would not want to get hit. How would a person know how powerful a weapon is? I mean, people just don't jump in front of phasers or alien weapons or Klingons wielding large two handed weapons saying my shields can take it. Especially if one has never seen that kind of weapon before. I can understand players not instantly being vaporized as it would make ground missions a pain and lots of death. However, I would think maybe one or two shield hits before getting seriously wounded or taking wound that affect your combat efficiency. This would force people to take cover more and make ground combat a little less silly. People certainly wouldn't be standing in the open as much. The AI looks very weak and typical of the COH/CO model. The enemies merely try to get within a particular range to use whatever weapon they got. I'll admit I'm not sure how to tackle the ground combat but I know the current COH/CO clone does not have a very strong Star Trek feel. Its more like City of Heroes with a dash of Halo shield regeneration. I can live with a City of Heros clone combat system for the ground combat but I would prefer that Cryptic be more original. I know they can do better and I hope that Cryptic is listening because I'm not the only one that feels that there should be more use of tactics and cover.

[Rota]

I feel this thread has some relevance. It seems that Champions Online cookie cutter copied alot of stuff from City of Heros. I feel STO has done a wonderful job with the space combat but unfortunately I feel that they have taken a shortcut with the ground combat which looks little more than a COH/CO clone with with Federation and Klingon skins. Perhaps they feel that this is the -style- that all Cryptic games should have for combat. I really dislike the idea that its okay to stand in the middle of the open and shoot and each other point blank or get hit with melee weapons just because your shields are holding up. Bad tactics. Bad concept. Maybe okay for a superhero game where players are more like demi gods instead of a simple race but not for Star Trek. If someone has a weapon, you in reality would not want to get hit. How would a person know how powerful a weapon is? I mean, people just don't jump in front of phasers or alien weapons or Klingons wielding large two handed weapons saying my shields can take it. Especially if one has never seen that kind of weapon before. I can understand players not instantly being vaporized as it would make ground missions a pain and lots of death. However, I would think maybe one or two shield hits before getting seriously wounded or taking wound that affect your combat efficiency. This would force people to take cover more and make ground combat a little less silly. People certainly wouldn't be standing in the open as much. The AI looks very weak and typical of the COH/CO model. The enemies merely try to get within a particular range to use whatever weapon they got. I'll admit I'm not sure how to tackle the ground combat but I know the current COH/CO clone does not have a very strong Star Trek feel. Its more like City of Heroes with a dash of Halo shield regeneration. I can live with a City of Heros clone combat system for the ground combat but I would prefer that Cryptic be more original. I know they can do better and I hope that Cryptic is listening because I'm not the only one that feels that there should be more use of tactics and cover.

Wall of text hits Rota
Wall of text crits for 1000 hp
Rota is dead

[Drexxus3d]

STO and CO have completely seperate dev teams working on them, just because it's the same company doesn't mean it's the same people making the game. STO is also a completely different type of game as well. So telling them to learn from their mistakes is kinda silly, because they weren't the ones that made them.

However, I would hope the devs, and any devs in the future really, will always look at past MMOs and their failings, what was popular, what wasn't, what went wrong, etc and improve on their methods. Blizzard does that, they take popular aspects of other games and integrates it into theirs as well as innovating new things and adding them to the genre which in turn other games copy from them.

Thus far this dev team has found creative solutions for how to make the game work and still be fun. It is not only their job to make this game work and be fun to play, but they (or at least craig) seems to genuinely enjoy and be excited about the whole thing. With that much passion for something, it's pretty hard to go wrong or put out a half-ass product.

We have to know at least that they are learning from C.O. This conversation was moved at one point, but we MUST know that they are least paying attention. We don't WANT a power-by-power re-spend on talents/abilities

You should really be posting things like that on the CO forums. If you're unhappy with their game, go tell them about it. This is a different staff. They have no control over CO and weren't responsible for making it the way it is. The games are different on a completely fundamental level.

[Liberty]

Heh, well they definitely seem to enjoy playing the space part anyways. Its always a good thing when you see the designers enjoying a game they are making.

[mezlabor]

STO and CO have completely seperate dev teams working on them, just because it's the same company doesn't mean it's the same people making the game. STO is also a completely different type of game as well. So telling them to learn from their mistakes is kinda silly, because they weren't the ones that made them. No but it uses the same engine An engine thats proving to have some issues.



Thus far this dev team has found creative solutions for how to make the game work and still be fun. You can't possibly know if this is true you haven't played the game yet. It could turn out to be a repetitive COH in space game which is something I and many others are afraid of. Truth be told I'm not at all sold on this genesis system. A million randomly generated missions doesn't sound like fun to me.
It is not only their job to make this game work and be fun to play, but they (or at least craig) seems to genuinely enjoy and be excited about the whole thing. With that much passion for something, it's pretty hard to go wrong or put out a half-ass product. Really? Because there was alot of passion behind CO and it did launch flawed and half-assed. If Jack Emert let that game go out the door in its current state (one that needed at least 6 more months of dev time) he could easily push out STO before its ready.


The games are different on a completely fundamental level. Your wrong on the most fundamental level they are the same game, They share the same engine if thats flawed with CO it will be flawed for STO.

[fractaleye]

I agree with AlwaysRemember. I'm not sure how fanatical the fans were for CO, but even if the team for STO muffs it, I wouldn't want to be in their shoes lol.

I think the enthusiasm I've seen/read from the various STO team (Craig especially, he lights up like a kid at Christmas when he gets asked about STO) will help overcome any problems that happened with CO (I can't speak for CO myself, having never played it). I have read some reviews and forum posts concerning CO, and I think they're trying to get it to the right place. Again, just pure impression on my part, having never played CO.

I normally don't have much faith in game companies (except a handful, and even most of those don't even put out games any more lol), but I feel that STO will be fine; I pity the poor STO team if it isn't...

[RemyBlack]

Wall of text hits Rota
Wall of text crits for 1000 hp
Rota is dead

OMG!!!! lol that is funnny, I saw that post and went right by it, but yours was epic win. lol

[Sunborn]

Wall of text hits Rota
Wall of text crits for 1000 hp
Rota is dead

I don't know why people do not understand how wonderful paragraphs are.

As for the issues with CO, and how they might translate into STO: I would expect there to be some learning. If they have not listened to the issues people are having with CO and if they have not made an effort to correct those issues I will be somewhat disappointed.

As for reposting a moved thread, I'm not sure if it's against the rules to do so, but don't be surprised if this gets moved again, or deleted, or locked.

[Flatfingers]

Wall of text hits Rota
Wall of text crits for 1000 hp
Rota is dead

Just be thankful it had punctuation, capitalization, and used actual English words, or there wouldn't have been enough left of your corpse to rez.

:)

--Flatfingers

[Drexxus3d]

No but it uses the same engine An engine thats proving to have some issues.
He didn't mention anything game engine related in his original post, he's just complaining about things that were done poorly in his opinion or pointing out certain broken features. Opinions are opinions, you can't really be right on wrong when it comes to how much XP you get for completing missions or killing mobs, it's whatever the developers want it to be. Maybe the game isn't meant to level as quickly as others, like WOW where you level very quickly and he isn't used to that and doesn't want that and instead wants to jump to max level asap. He doesn't really go into much detail other than to say he doesn't like it or it's broken, that doesn't really tell us much and i'm pretty sure it tells the STO dev team even less since they most likely know very little about CO since all their time has been spent developing STO and not CO.

You can't possibly know if this is true you haven't played the game yet. It could turn out to be a repetitive COH in space game which is something I and many others are afraid of. Truth be told I'm not at all sold on this genesis system. A million randomly generated missions doesn't sound like fun to me.
Really? Because there was alot of passion behind CO and it did launch flawed and half-assed. If Jack Emert let that game go out the door in its current state (one that needed at least 6 more months of dev time) he could easily push out STO before its ready.
I have seen multiple demos and I read up on all the information they have presented us with and the answers to questions they are asked. While they haven't gone into too much detail on every little aspect of the game, everything so far they have covered has been to my satisfaction and I found their stances on things to be similiar to mine in the fun vs Canon department as well as in other areas. From what I know about the game, so far it's meeting my personal expectations. Your knowledge of the game or opinions on what you like and dislike may differ.

Your wrong on the most fundamental level they are the same game, They share the same engine if thats flawed with CO it will be flawed for STO.

Game engine is not the game. Game engines are just a kind of collection of framework code to build off of and expand on. Lineage II is nothing like and has no issues even remotely similiar to Unreal Tournament and they run off the same game engine. Dark age of camelot and The Elder Scrolls: Morrowwind run off the same game engine as one another as well and they are clearly very different games that do not have the same problems. Game engines are highly customizable and flexible, they just provide a kind of foundation to build off from quickly or like a template to start out with instead of starting from scratch.

This whole thing is based on fear. Fear this game will fail, fear this game will have issues and problems. And you know what? It will. All MMOs have problems at release. Everyone runs around screaming like chickens with their heads cut off when a MMO comes out and isn't 100% perfect. They say things like it should've stayed in beta another 2 years and it's crap, not worth playing, etc. But it's always like that and probably always will be like that. The birthing process is painful for MMOs, but they will mature, develop, and prosper as long as their players don't give up on them right off the bat.

Any issues STO has now or develops later, they will identify and address because they have a vested interest in not only this product being successful but in it's continuing to be successful over a long period of time. I'm sure all those "problems" with CO will be fixxed in time, like the broken powers, non functioning auction house, etc. A month from now most of the playerbase won't even know or care.

I really wish people that complained about broken features and bugs in games would take up a programming class or two to see just how significantly screwed a program can become just by having ONE single character in the wrong place or missing. It can destroy the entire program. Then you multiply that by all the depth, complexity, and multiple systems working together in a MMO and yeah, things break. Some things you might say "how did they not catch that in beta?" or "How did they break this when they fixxed that?" But seriously people, you don't have to be a programmer, just pickup a book on it or something and try writing a few simple programs yourself and maybe you'll better understand why and how those sorts of things happen. MMOs are very complicated systems already, which is exactly WHY they prefer to use an already existing, proven game engine to build off of instead of further complicating matters by building the whole thing from scratch.

Just calm down, deep breath, have faith that they will take care of it like they're supposed to. If they don't just don't give them your money, that is your power and that is your choice. The game will constantly be changing. They may make changes that cause you to quit then other changes that cause you to come back, that's just the industry. But coming onto the forums for STO complaining about issues in an unrelated game just seems silly to me. I know you're all scared and want it to be great, I do too, I just don't think this sort of thing is productive nor do I expect anyone on the dev team to look at a thread like this or take it seriously because of the way it is presented coupled with the fact it's a repost of an already moderated one.

[Lendosan]

Why is it that names that all sound like Loki/Lyko/Liok etc etc etc are always whining and posting hate threads? Just a question...

[amphigory]

AlwaysRemember - thank you for being the voice of reason :)
That's the best post I've read in a while to counter all these "fear" threads that have popped up lately.

Yes CO currently has problems. These issues will be ironed out over time!
World of Warcraft is a good example. When it first started it had many issues, but these issues have all been (almost) all ironed out. WoW is a much smoother game.
These things take time! NO ONE CAN MAKE A PERFECT GAME.
Everyone needs to remember that! No one is perfect and no one can create the perfect game!
It takes time to tune the game until it has the right feel and play to it.
In any case, the people lucky enough to get into beta will know for sure how it is. Even though they won't be able to talk about, I'm hoping Cryptic will allow certain "player thoughts" to come through to the General forums.

[Archangelwoghd]

This thread was moved for a reason, and restarting such threads is against the rules.

[Gfischer]

I had moved the previous thread and even given a reason as to why it was moved.
Please pick your discussion up in that moved thread.