Pretty big STO concern

[Raven0238]

In light of the recent game information released over the past several weeks and insinuations based on Q & A regarding the game, I am pretty concerned with the direction of STO. I've been waiting for STO for several years now and had always imagined a perpetual universe where people would see other players and interact with others as well, almost like a sandbox.

After the recent information released - it seems that STO will be nothing but a network of instances. You can't be on the same planet with people outside of your own group and apparently "sector space", which I think is a horrible idea in the first place - will also be instanced so to speak. Several months ago I asked a question regarding fleet starbases - while it was mentioned that they may not be available at launch, if at all, it was insinuated that they would be in instanced space.

In a recent post Rekhan mentioned that it would be unrealistic to have several thousand people on a galaxy map -if this is the case, why not just have separate servers? Unless I am missing something.

I am not trying to troll or create drama, but rather voice my concerns for the direction of the game - if I am wrong in my interpretations of things, please correct me - but I just think that too many instances = not good.

[Manta2015]

It's a way for all your friends to not worry about what server they happened to roll on.

Typical multiple server scenario:

Friend: "Omg, you play STO! That's awesome! What server you on?"

You: "I'm on the Dyson server... How about you?"

Friend: "Oh man, c'mon leave that dump and join my server, there's so many awesome people here"

You: "But I already have a Tier 4 ship... it'll take me forev...."

Friend: "Never mind that, it won't take too long getting all that stuff back! You should just..."

You: "Well how about you come to my server instead?" -- Endless bickering continues ~


With this system, yes there are drawbacks ~ It feels less like a massive game as a main one... But if 'any' of your friends from around the world are online and you want to join some big fleet battle ~ There's no trouble at all =)


-Manta-

[Nasedo]

In light of the recent game information released over the past several weeks and insinuations based on Q & A regarding the game, I am pretty concerned with the direction of STO. I've been waiting for STO for several years now and had always imagined a perpetual universe where people would see other players and interact with others as well, almost like a sandbox.

After the recent information released - it seems that STO will be nothing but a network of instances. You can't be on the same planet with people outside of your own group and apparently "sector space", which I think is a horrible idea in the first place - will also be instanced so to speak. Several months ago I asked a question regarding fleet starbases - while it was mentioned that they may not be available at launch, if at all, it was insinuated that they would be in instanced space.

In a recent post Rekhan mentioned that it would be unrealistic to have several thousand people on a galaxy map -if this is the case, why not just have separate servers? Unless I am missing something.

I am not trying to troll or create drama, but rather voice my concerns for the direction of the game - if I am wrong in my interpretations of things, please correct me - but I just think that too many instances = not good.

Raven..... i feel the same way, there are few things i wish cryptic would change and not do, i played wow for a very long time, i posted my concerns for years on the wow forums and not one of them came true or never had a dev give it another look

bottom line is we cant change Cryptic's mind about how They want to make STO no point in trying believe i tryed to change Blizzards mind for years and they wont listen,,,

Dont get me wrong Cryptic's one of the best companys out there but they wont change there minds.what is done is done

[Cruis.In]

sto pretty much set in its direction now. nothing can change that.

[Raven0238]

Instead of server its more like "Hey, what instance are you in?" or even "I am in Sol, where are you?" "In Sol" "oops - wrong instance" - I just think having a perpetual universe would be better. It eliminates the MMO-esc of STO and turns it into a graphic intensive, star trek themed, Steam Client.

[Raven0238]

Raven..... i feel the same way, there are few things i wish cryptic would change and not do, i played wow for a very long time, i posted my concerns for years on the wow forums and not one of them came true or never had a dev give it another look

bottom line is we cant change Cryptic's mind about how They want to make STO no point in trying believe i tryed to change Blizzards mind for years and they wont listen,,,

Dont get me wrong Cryptic's one of the best companys out there but they wont change there minds.what is done is done

Sad - but true. I can't help but try.

[eqfan592]

Instead of server its more like "Hey, what instance are you in?" or even "I am in Sol, where are you?" "In Sol" "oops - wrong instance" - I just think having a perpetual universe would be better. It eliminates the MMO-esc of STO and turns it into a graphic intensive, star trek themed, Steam Client.

You're right! Because seeing 900 ships all crammed into a little area of space around a single planet with "LFG" popping up everywhere and so forth wouldn't bring about any MMO-esc into STO!

Sorry for the sarcasm, but you and others really are failing to see the advantages of one system while failing to see the disadvantages of another. I frankly really like where STO is going with this, because I can easily remember countless other times in MMO's here the above situation totally ruined the feel of the game.

[Nasedo]

Sad - but true. I can't help but try.

i been trying. it wont work believe me, so these's days i just sit back and enjoy the show.hope Cryptic knows whats its doing.

i dont like the fact that there is so many damn Zones or instance or whatever they freakin call them..
thats just one of the things i dont like... but what can i do? call cryptic? that wont do anything. post?, if i post it may start up a Flame war. and thats the last thing i want to do

so i just sit here like a good little Star Trek Fan and read the forums and laugh and have a good time,
i dont got the power to change STO....only thing you can do is buy out cryptic and be the new boss, but that'll cost you millions and millions of $$$

Nasedo

[Nasedo]

You're right! Because seeing 900 ships all crammed into a little area of space around a single planet with "LFG" popping up everywhere and so forth wouldn't bring about any MMO-esc into STO!

Sorry for the sarcasm, but you and others really are failing to see the advantages of one system while failing to see the disadvantages of another. I frankly really like where STO is going with this, because I can easily remember countless other times in MMO's here the above situation totally ruined the feel of the game.

i played CO and it looks Very Fun..you know what makes it fun? i dont have to stand around spaming LFG for 5 hours, because most of the Stuff in CO you can solo your self

so maybe STO would be like 75% solo and 25% 5 man raids.

unlike wow (its boreding because of this) you have to sit around and spam LFG for 5 hours because most of the stuff there needs a group.. 80% of the time you need a Group or a raid to do anything..20% of the time you can level up by your self and do dailys by your self..

to me that isnt fun

[thefrayl]

After playing on a server model like the one planned here, I for one think that several instances on one big network of a server is the much preferrable option to the traditional multiple server approach.

You essentially get the same thing, but without the unbreakable barriers between servers. It works very well, and encourages social interaction by ensuring that the zone you play in is always well populated. And really, how often to you see more than 140 people (A normal CO instance cap just for reference) in a single zone on multi server games anyway?

It's not nearly as bad as it sounds.

[LordDave]

Advantages:

No spawn camping
No huge crowds
No "immersion breaker" mission interference
Everyone on one "server" and able to play together.


Disadvantages:

Lots of instance hopping.
Lack of "huge universe with lots of people" feel.
Many loading screens


Anymore?

[MIB]

I don't mind instances although not sure I like the shard method that Cryptic uses. You could of had one mass area of space similar to EVE but instead of Dead Space you'd have a mission shard. I think Cryptic is using too much instancing which can cause serious detachment from the community. Sure you don't have to switch servers but most people who know each other or are in the same guild/fleet are already on the same server. You get a notification when they log on etc. With shards one of your buddys might be in Shard A, and another buddy in Shard B, and another buddy in Shard C, etc., and considering how many people can be in a fleet/guild that can be a whole heck lotta shards your friends are split up in. Annoying if anything. I think players can suck it up and get around that but I do feel that there should be a main meeting area for players regardless of what shard they are in. This is why I believe fleet structures are a must. I'd make it like Pocket D in City of Heros but instead of teleporting to a Club you instead warp to your fleet's starbase. That way you have a quick way for all your fleet members to meet up, socialize, and gather fleet members for large combat operations. Other fleets could be given permission to access that particular fleet's starbase. This could even be expanded to the ship interiors for ships docked at that starbase. Every shard should also have a permanent starbase for everyone to meet at for those that are not in player guilds/fleets. They may already have something like this in mind for the future but thought I'd throw it out there anyways.

[KODudna]

We can't have everything... I personally would love a true galaxy-sized Star Trek-ified sandbox to play in, but the path that Cryptic is taking is legitimate. I think the pro's outweigh the con's.

Besides, the galaxy is a big place. Shouldn't it really feel a little empty at times?

[thefrayl]

Advantages:

No spawn camping
No huge crowds
No "immersion breaker" mission interference
Everyone on one "server" and able to play together.


Disadvantages:

Lots of instance hopping.
Lack of "huge universe with lots of people" feel.
Many loading screens


Anymore?

I think you laid out the pros and cons nicely here.

I'm sure they will have a "Let me choose an instance" checkbox like in CO that, when unchecked, automatically chooses the optimum instance for the zone you enter. You won't even notice all the instance hopping with this option on.

One thing that I am hopeful for is an easy "Summon" function for a team leader that brings everyone to the same instance when needed. But even without, if it's anything like CO, changing your instance is a few clicks away.

[ndat]

*Edit: ^ That sounds like a pretty good idea to me.*

I'm not really too sure what to think about it. I't's one of those things I will have to experience to really form an opinion about. As long as you can find random people to just play with I don't really see it being a huge draw back from the MMO style. I'm no expert on these types of games though.

[eqfan592]

And really, how often to you see more than 140 people (A normal CO instance cap just for reference) in a single zone on multi server games anyway?



An even better question would be why would you ever WANT to see more than 140 people in a single zone? ;)


A lag monster hits YOU for 999999999 points of damage!!!

[andrewprofit]

An even better question would be why would you ever WANT to see more than 140 people in a single zone? ;)


A lag monster hits YOU for 999999999 points of damage!!!

Why would I ever want to see 14 people in a single zone or 1400 people in a single zone? So if I am in a certain area of space will my scanners only see 140 other players even if their are one million players in that same area?


Did they make the who STO game like pvp instances in WOW?

[.Spartan]

Wow! The third thread on this topic today. The moderators need to step up their 'game' to say the least. :p

[SelorKiith]

After playing on a server model like the one planned here, I for one think that several instances on one big network of a server is the much preferrable option to the traditional multiple server approach.

You essentially get the same thing, but without the unbreakable barriers between servers. It works very well, and encourages social interaction by ensuring that the zone you play in is always well populated. And really, how often to you see more than 140 people (A normal CO instance cap just for reference) in a single zone on multi server games anyway?

It's not nearly as bad as it sounds.

Advantages:

No spawn camping
No huge crowds
No "immersion breaker" mission interference
Everyone on one "server" and able to play together.


Disadvantages:

Lots of instance hopping.
Lack of "huge universe with lots of people" feel.
Many loading screens


Anymore?

I think you laid out the pros and cons nicely here.

I'm sure they will have a "Let me choose an instance" checkbox like in CO that, when unchecked, automatically chooses the optimum instance for the zone you enter. You won't even notice all the instance hopping with this option on.

One thing that I am hopeful for is an easy "Summon" function for a team leader that brings everyone to the same instance when needed. But even without, if it's anything like CO, changing your instance is a few clicks away.

This this and this!
But I want to add for this "huge Universe with lots of people" feel... well when do we ever saw more then a few ships in Star Trek (except for Dominion War)?
We always saw just 3 or 4 Ships at most and most of the time only the Series Ship... so and you have at least 100 other players roaming the Instance, I mean... what do you want? 1000 Players crammed into Earths Orbit to have that feeling of "huge Universe with lots of people"? (not directed at you Dave, just a general Question to everyone).

[RetroX]

This this and this!
But I want to add for this "huge Universe with lots of people" feel... well when do we ever saw more then a few ships in Star Trek (except for Dominion War)?
We always saw just 3 or 4 Ships at most and most of the time only the Series Ship... so and you have at least 100 other players roaming the Instance, I mean... what do you want? 1000 Players crammed into Earths Orbit to have that feeling of "huge Universe with lots of people"? (not directed at you Dave, just a general Question to everyone).

I don't understand this argument about well known planets and star bases not having hundreds of players around, especially Earth, of course that's going to have hundreds of ships around it. They didn't show hundreds of ships in the shows because most of the time they was in the far reaches of space and secondly it was the budget of putting hundreds and hundreds of ships in.

These areas should be persistent and busy, CO is way to instanced, don't get me wrong I enjoy the game it's just not an MMO how it is done.

[SelorKiith]

You WILL have 100-200 Players around Earth per Instance maybe even more if Cryptic decides on another PlayerCap for this Area... Is that not enough? What the Hell do you want?

[Azurit]

...had always imagined a perpetual universe ...

But this game is no longer made by perpetual ;) Sorry for the cheap joke ^^

I don't know if I will like it. It happend to me with wow that 4 rl friends started on 4 different servers. We did not see us for some years and later discovered we all play wow. 3 have already moved to 1 server while the other one plays the wrong faction. So I see some advantages. But still don't know if I like it.

With all this instancing, whats the difference to playing Diablo2 or Command&Conquer online? Go to a chatroom - select a game - start playing with 4-8 people. In an MMO you need to meet people. You are on the same mission, in the same location. You befriend, you join a guild and so on.

In wow Battlegrounds with the battlegroups everything is total anonymus. You don't meet the same people again, or you don't remember them. I don't like that.

I think this will help to play with friends you already have, and be bad for finding new friends.

[Exist-nl-]

Instanced vs non instanced :)

Instanced beats non instanced on a lot of factors, but 1 main server would be the most immersive but thats just almost impossible with current tech.

I would much rather have a lag free server then 1 with cluttered areas full of ships and lagg.

I much better question would be on how big these instances are going to be,
Instances with a low cap (below 100 users) would be immersion breaking for me.

200 people max in 1 area/instance would do it for me (200 people are a lot !).

[SelorKiith]

I much better question would be on how big these instances are going to be,
Instances with a low cap (below 100 users) would be immersion breaking for me.

200 people max in 1 area/instance would do it for me (200 people are a lot !).

In CO only the smaller tutorial Areas have a lower cap (50-100) other bigger "normal" Areas have up to 200...
I think the same will go as Standard for STO...

[slingbladez]

You WILL have 100-200 Players around Earth per Instance maybe even more if Cryptic decides on another PlayerCap for this Area... Is that not enough? What the Hell do you want?

in the dominion war there was a battle with approx 2000 ships ;). But i can agree that if they have up to 200 ships in a zone that should be sufficient.

[thefrayl]

Why would I ever want to see 14 people in a single zone or 1400 people in a single zone? So if I am in a certain area of space will my scanners only see 140 other players even if their are one million players in that same area?

Pretty much, yes. JUST like it would happen if we were running on multiple servers like WoW has. Except now, you can go to whatever 'server' you want at any given time. And you can meet players from ANY of these 'servers' just like you would in any other MMO.

Did they make the who STO game like pvp instances in WOW?

No, not like WoW's instances, although there ARE "dungeons" of the sort for Episode content in the game. The instances we are talking about are open, well populated zones. You won't have any problem running into other players.

Baleeee dat! :)

[USS_Parallax]

It's not the numbers so much as the fact that since you're in such a huge community that's constantly switching servers you'll likely almost never see anyone you know. The community could have trouble growing when everyone is constantly changing.

Think of it this way:

Real life. Pretend that you have a nice community with your neighbors (lol who knows their neighbors anymore?). Now pretend that the real world goes under these instanced rules from Champions Online.
Every day you have new neighbors. You'd rarely if ever see the same people. Everyone is constantly moving. People are getting to know each other less. It's just hard to keep up a community in those circumstances.

The result is a community of more strangers than usual. Often in games that don't rely so heavily on instancing I would recognize or even know who's talking in the chat. In Champions people talked in the chat less often and I never knew them since there were literally thousands of people moving in and out of my 'neighborhood' including me.


Now of course it has it's pros and cons. You won't get stuck on a server that's not your friend's because you can simply switch servers whenever you want. Spawn camping is less of an issue (though it still exists). etc etc. However the public community is weaker. I don't know about guild community. I never joined a guild in CO.

[slingbladez]

I think some people are forgetting that while a lot of MMORPG's only have one instance of each zone they are essentially instanced because they have more than one server. The difference is that you can't change serves with your existing character so if you want to play with someone on a different server you have to create a new character in that server(some allow you to pay for it, but you can't seamlessly change between each at will).

If Cryptic manages to create high enough population limits then their system will be superior to others because you won't have to worry about what server you choose when starting out. You will be able to change instance and have the potential of playing with every single person in the game instead of only those on your server like in other games. You won't be stuck with a limited player base playing against the same people over and over again.

In Warhammer Online i got stuck on a server that was underpopulated and i had to wait for the devs to let us transfer to higher population servers (the pvp was pretty population dependent). I would have killed to be able to change servers/instances at will and play with all those high population servers. The pvp was pretty stagnant also because you were playing against the same players over and over again. Even though the game had about 20-30x the players i wasn't able to play against any of them because they were on a different server.

[Zepath]

There are advantages, and disadvantages. I tend to feel the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. I absolutely hate (and I mean with capitol letters HATE) instancing.

You can take the best game in the world, and the second you add instancing, it becomes a mediocre game because of the social issues, logistical issues, and the incessant load screens. Not to mention you lose all sense of immersion, and never have a sense you're in an expansive area ... you ALWAYS know (and feel like) you're in this little box.

I have no better example of this than CoH and AoC. Instancing took so much out of those games for me. I never felt like I was in an epic MMO in either of those games ... instead they were just some quaint little game that was put together on a shoe-string budget. It doesn't matter whether its true or not, that was the impression.

Instancing just makes the game look cheesy and cheap IMO.

But what's decided is decided in this game ... these continued threads against it are totally moot.

More over, I believe instancing is built into their engine now and even if they had time to change it they won't.

[RetroX]

I think some people are forgetting that while a lot of MMORPG's only have one instance of each zone they are essentially instanced because they have more than one server. The difference is that you can't change serves with your existing character so if you want to play with someone on a different server you have to create a new character in that server(some allow you to pay for it, but you can't seamlessly change between each at will).

If Cryptic manages to create high enough population limits then their system will be superior to others because you won't have to worry about what server you choose when starting out. You will be able to change instance and have the potential of playing with every single person in the game instead of only those on your server like in other games. You won't be stuck with a limited player base playing against the same people over and over again.

In Warhammer Online i got stuck on a server that was underpopulated and i had to wait for the devs to let us transfer to higher population servers (the pvp was pretty population dependent). I would have killed to be able to change servers/instances at will and play with all those high population servers. The pvp was pretty stagnant also because you were playing against the same players over and over again. Even though the game had about 20-30x the players i wasn't able to play against any of them because they were on a different server.

Thats fine for a normal online game but its no longer an MMO as part that is the community, regularly seeing the same people in chat pop up, even people you don't like build a community we all have people we see in real life who we don't like. And I think the top population limit in CO is 100 and you still got the issue of not sticking to one community

Your issue with warhammer is more bad planning on the devs part, maybe allow people to have 2/3 server changes a year would suit that more why creating a more sticking community

[indigowhale345]

Thats fine for a normal online game but its no longer an MMO as part that is the community, regularly seeing the same people in chat pop up, even people you don't like build a community we all have people we see in real life who we don't like. And I think the top population limit in CO is 100 and you still got the issue of not sticking to one community

This really sums it up for me. In a non-instanced game, you see the same people hawking their tacos on the trade channels, developing their own style to try and sell them. You see the same people you teamed with last week as you pass them in a different team. You see the same people you debate with on the forums as they keep pushing their point in game on the chat channels. Its a passive effort to meet and run into the same people again and again.

But with the instanced server that CO has, there really is a significant disconnect. There are more good reasons for instancing than against, but I think they need to work some more on bringing the community together, across the instances, to make everyone feel like they are all in the same game, not in pockets of the game.

The big suggestion I have here is to make global channels (maybe they already have them, I don't know) which cross the instancing divide. So they could have a global channel for the desert in CO, and everyone in every desert instance would hear anything on this channel. "Grond raid forming in IS 23!"

This will almost certainly need to be completely global chat in STO, for how many more areas there will likely be, and how much more spread out people may be, so that global chat in the Sol sector not only reaches out to every Sol instance, but it will be heard in DS9 and unexplored space as well.

It might look something like this:

Captain Bob [DS4 sector, IS 2]: WTT tacos for romulan ale!
Captain Obvious [Sector 001, IS 5]: omg romulan ale is illegal!
Ensign PVPnub [NZ alpha, IS 1]: omg wtf!!!! klingons!!!!!!!!! halp plz!!!!!!!!
Captain Cybor [Risa beach, IS 35]: I take off your top with my furry paws as I sensually lick your antenna. My passion burns like a supernova for you.

Well, maybe Risa channels shouldn't have access to global... But, obviously you should be able to turn these channels off or put them into antoher tab if you didn't want to hear them, but I consider such global channels very necessary for the community and MMO feeling.

Another idea is to have social instances with a much higher instance cap, say like DS9 might have a cap of 500 people, to help it feel busy and bustling, while most instances may max out around 150 or so.

[holiday1021]

You know what I liked? In a game like WoW or SWG you had that feeling of community. When I would go hunting any day of the week in either game, I always followed some sort of pattern. I found that a lot of other people did the same from time to time. I would run into a lot of the same people over time doing whatever activity I was doing at the time. It made me feel like I was part of this universe, not just sitting inside some box playing a game. I got to know these people and felt a real sense of community, as it would be if these places really existed and I was really there. I was able to set up shops, have my regular customers, join hunting partings with my regular hunting buddies that I wasn't always grouped with. If it was 2am and I was in a certain spot on the map, I knew where these peeps would be. I felt a sense of total immersion.

When I played GW it was my first real experience playing on Instanced Servers. I lost this feeling, with everyone coming and going, never knowing who you'll run into, never seeing the same people more than once on most occasions.

I know Instancing has its advantages, I understand and agree with most of them. But the one big disadvantage is that we give up a good sense of community.

I know communities still exist in Instancing, but it's not the same. During my time in the Beta for CO I rarely saw the same person twice. I always felt like I was stuck on Level 1 of joining said community and getting to know the peeps who inhabited it.

In STO it makes sense to instance. if you're exploring a region of space no man has been to, it takes the fun out of it when 150 other people are there too doing the exact same thing you are. Just how mysterious could space really be when no matter where you go you are surrounded by people.

I agree with Instancing, but lets not forget what we're giving up as well.

[Weatherlight]

Advantages:

No spawn camping
No huge crowds
No "immersion breaker" mission interference
Everyone on one "server" and able to play together.


Disadvantages:

Lots of instance hopping.
Lack of "huge universe with lots of people" feel.
Many loading screens
Limited RP possibility


Anymore?

I really do still have to get how this is going to work for RP...it s gonna be a lot of Forum RP and little in game

[mistermgd]

In light of the recent game information released over the past several weeks and insinuations based on Q & A regarding the game, I am pretty concerned with the direction of STO. I've been waiting for STO for several years now and had always imagined a perpetual universe where people would see other players and interact with others as well, almost like a sandbox.

After the recent information released - it seems that STO will be nothing but a network of instances. You can't be on the same planet with people outside of your own group and apparently "sector space", which I think is a horrible idea in the first place - will also be instanced so to speak. Several months ago I asked a question regarding fleet starbases - while it was mentioned that they may not be available at launch, if at all, it was insinuated that they would be in instanced space.

In a recent post Rekhan mentioned that it would be unrealistic to have several thousand people on a galaxy map -if this is the case, why not just have separate servers? Unless I am missing something.

I am not trying to troll or create drama, but rather voice my concerns for the direction of the game - if I am wrong in my interpretations of things, please correct me - but I just think that too many instances = not good.

This does not make a lot of sense to me. First, I don't understand why more than one group can't be at the same place at the same time or an indidvidual for that matter. TO me teaming up would be good for the game and if you don't want to team up or fight (either case) then you go about your own biusiness. I don't know what is meant by "sector Space' can someone explain that to me? And what is this separate server stuff? I could understand maybe separate servers for skill level perhaps but not anything else unless separate servers were necessary for regions of the world because there would be too many people on one server at one time.

Also on the group thing, has anyone said anything about cases wehre peopel are not part of a group but are playing as an individual or is that not allowed?

So if any of you can answer these questions I'd appreciate it. Thanks

[Zepath]

i been trying. it wont work believe me, so these's days i just sit back and enjoy the show.hope Cryptic knows whats its doing.

i dont like the fact that there is so many damn Zones or instance or whatever they freakin call them..
thats just one of the things i dont like... but what can i do? call cryptic? that wont do anything. post?, if i post it may start up a Flame war. and thats the last thing i want to do

so i just sit here like a good little Star Trek Fan and read the forums and laugh and have a good time,
i dont got the power to change STO....only thing you can do is buy out cryptic and be the new boss, but that'll cost you millions and millions of $$$

Nasedo

A) If I'm going to solo a game, I'll choose to not pay for an MMO.

B) If they would adopt the Open Group model that Warhammer uses, you don't have to stand around screaming LFG ... you just see what groups are going on and join one. If you don't want people joining your group, you just close it, and they don't see your group.

You never hear LFG in Warhammer ... the only discussion you hear is if there is anyone that wants to to X quest/PQ/Dungeon

I have played both Multi-servers, and Multi-instance ... I will take Multiservers any day of the week.

[Zepath]

I really do still have to get how this is going to work for RP...it s gonna be a lot of Forum RP and little in game


You aren't going to have an RP experience with this model.

That's the thing everyone forgets ... there aren't going to be Open PvP servers, there aren't going to RP servers, there aren't going to be PvE servers .... everyone gets dumped into one pool, and that it. Get over it.

At least in a multi-server scenario, you get the griefers going to the PvP servers, and the people who derive their enjoyment from RP'ing being able to congregate on their own servers.

[Griffin]

Having different shards of the entire galaxy is, IMO, a step backwards in MMO mechanics. By implementing this system, we will not be seeing player influenced aspects of this game. Nothing we do in the Neutral zone for instance will matter, because there will be a different situation is each shard. PvP will be reduced to a rep/point grind or a meaningless passtime, with no real impact on the game.

The advantages speak for themselves, you'll never be alone, there will always be instances and hubs full of people, but what is the point of having other people around you, what is the point of teamwork, when the only people who benefit are the individuals? The Federation will not benefit from me or my guild's hard work in the Neutral zone, attempting to capture planets through force to enhance my faction (as was eluded to by the DEVs many months ago), only the character will benefit. In other words, we have here a single player game, in which you can team up with others to enhance yourself only.

Community? Fleets? Joint effort? Large Scale Engagements? pfft, no need, non of them will mean a damn thing in a sharded MMO.

Cryptic may tell you it's a single server, but we will never see a unique single server. I also feel we've been fed the most overexaggerated PR to make this game appear huge and magnificent, when really, is it that huge? Will exploration be this great mechanic, or will it be 'go to blob on map and get random mission'? We have yet to see.

Overall, I feel this will be taking a real step backwards in terms of MMO mechanics. Genuin social community and team effort have given way to silly, short term, fun and the proximity of people. We're being fed a simplistic game and no matter how many new costumes they add or new content they release, with this server setup, the game will feel so very shallow.

... IMO

[LordDave]

I really do still have to get how this is going to work for RP...it s gonna be a lot of Forum RP and little in game

I fail to see how it's difficult. Odds are , 90% of the people you meet won't be RPing. And since people pop in and out often, (log in, log out) RPing with specific people requires that you coordinate with them prior, which means you just swap instances.

Who knows? Maybe "Instance 3" will be the unofficial "RP" instance. Players do that sort of thing.

[Zepath]

I fail to see how it's difficult. Odds are , 90% of the people you meet won't be RPing. And since people pop in and out often, (log in, log out) RPing with specific people requires that you coordinate with them prior, which means you just swap instances.

Who knows? Maybe "Instance 3" will be the unofficial "RP" instance. Players do that sort of thing.

They don't work that way Dave ... you can't fire up an instance for yourself, and instances don't exist if there's no one in it.

[Zepath]

Oh BTW, the other disadvantage LordDave you missed ... persistent player caused/contributed world changes. Star Bases built by guilds won't be in this game because they can't be across all instances and still be defended/worked on.

[LordDave]

Having different shards of the entire galaxy is, IMO, a step backwards in MMO mechanics. By implementing this system, we will not be seeing player influenced aspects of this game. Nothing we do in the Neutral zone for instance will matter, because there will be a different situation is each shard. PvP will be reduced to a rep/point grind or a meaningless passtime, with no real impact on the game.

The advantages speak for themselves, you'll never be alone, there will always be instances and hubs full of people, but what is the point of having other people around you, what is the point of teamwork, when the only people who benefit are the individuals? The Federation will not benefit from me or my guild's hard work in the Neutral zone, attempting to capture planets through force to enhance my faction (as was eluded to by the DEVs many months ago), only the character will benefit. In other words, we have here a single player game, in which you can team up with others to enhance yourself only.

Community? Fleets? Joint effort? Large Scale Engagements? pfft, no need, non of them will mean a damn thing in a sharded MMO.

Cryptic may tell you it's a single server, but we will never see a unique single server. I also feel we've been fed the most overexaggerated PR to make this game appear huge and magnificent, when really, is it that huge? Will exploration be this great mechanic, or will it be 'go to blob on map and get random mission'? We have yet to see.

Overall, I feel this will be taking a real step backwards in terms of MMO mechanics. Fun and the proximity of people have given way to genuin social community and team effort. We're being fed a simplistic game and no matter how many new costumes they add or new content they release, with this server setup, the game will feel so very shallow.

... IMO

A step backwards? I disagree. A step to the left yes, but not backwards.

The OLD system was to limit the number of people per server and keep them there. So if you have a target of say... 2,000 people per area as your limit (hardware usually), then that's your server cap. Doesn't matter if you'll never have it.

This system basically puts that limit in, but allows free flowing movement from server to server. It's a step to the left, not backwards. But it isn't going forward.
Then again, how would you go forward? A forward would be to allow everyone to occupy the same space at the same time. So if you had 200,000 players, they should be able to be on the screen in the same area at the same time.

[LordDave]

They don't work that way Dave ... you can't fire up an instance for yourself, and instances don't exist if there's no one in it.

Oh, so it's basically a "If we reach the max, you get bumped to another one"
That's not so bad.

Oh BTW, the other disadvantage LordDave you missed ... persistent player caused/contributed world changes. Star Bases built by guilds won't be in this game because they can't be across all instances and still be defended/worked on.
True, true.

[piponolo]

It is possible that you can jump instances to meet people. Anyone ever play Guild Wars? EVERYTHING was technically an instance, even the towns. If you were somewhere and didn't see your friend, all you had to do was go up to a little menu bar and switch to whatever instance they were in. Simple. Fast. No frills. Drop down menu.

[Tamgros]

Advantages:

No spawn camping
No huge crowds
No "immersion breaker" mission interference
Everyone on one "server" and able to play together.


Disadvantages:

Lots of instance hopping.
Lack of "huge universe with lots of people" feel.
Many loading screens


Anymore?
Nice post. I think this is how we should view most issues. Personally, i like the multi instanced idea as long as they maintain a persistent feel on territory shifts, resource points, exploration etc. I like players having some effect on the universe.

An example of my worry with this is that if there are multiple instances of the exact same PvP battleground. That would essentially make any one of those battlegrounds pointless, either that or really contrived "faction points", "loot" or something. You clearly wouldn't be able to gain access to the territory itself because another instance of the same battleground could have the other side winning...

I really do still have to get how this is going to work for RP...it s gonna be a lot of Forum RP and little in game

I guess I don't understand what you mean. Are you wanting a whole RP server?

I think what's going to happen is there will be 'unofficial RP' instances that spring up. Basically, if you RP, you always go to instance number 7...

I don't think it will be hard to RP in a ST game. You can also make your own, in game, chat channels. You could make RP_Fed for instance, and then the fed RPers could ahve their RP talk there and not have to worry about global chat/LFG type talk...

[Bigwig]

Having different shards of the entire galaxy is, IMO, a step backwards in MMO mechanics. By implementing this system, we will not be seeing player influenced aspects of this game. Nothing we do in the Neutral zone for instance will matter, because there will be a different situation is each shard. PvP will be reduced to a rep/point grind or a meaningless passtime, with no real impact on the game.

The advantages speak for themselves, you'll never be alone, there will always be instances and hubs full of people, but what is the point of having other people around you, what is the point of teamwork, when the only people who benefit are the individuals? The Federation will not benefit from me or my guild's hard work in the Neutral zone, attempting to capture planets through force to enhance my faction (as was eluded to by the DEVs many months ago), only the character will benefit. In other words, we have here a single player game, in which you can team up with others to enhance yourself only.

Community? Fleets? Joint effort? Large Scale Engagements? pfft, no need, non of them will mean a damn thing in a sharded MMO.

Cryptic may tell you it's a single server, but we will never see a unique single server. I also feel we've been fed the most overexaggerated PR to make this game appear huge and magnificent, when really, is it that huge? Will exploration be this great mechanic, or will it be 'go to blob on map and get random mission'? We have yet to see.

Overall, I feel this will be taking a real step backwards in terms of MMO mechanics. Genuin social community and team effort have given way to silly, short term, fun and the proximity of people. We're being fed a simplistic game and no matter how many new costumes they add or new content they release, with this server setup, the game will feel so very shallow.

... IMO

Absolutely spot-on. I made a thread of my own on this issue, and there were about 3 people fighting FOR the system, while the other 12 pages mainly consisted of people who were either on the fence or completely disliked the idea. Before it was closed, i mean its plain to see with the amount of threads about the issue that this is not a welcomed design choice.

*GOLF CLAP* Well done Cryptic, you've shot yourself in the foot. Persistent star-bases! Why bother? I'll just switch instance and move around it... Factional Warfare? Whats the point, nothing you do will matter. Well done Cryptic, well this is one cash-cow you won't be milking.

[Zepath]

Oh, so it's basically a "If we reach the max, you get bumped to another one"
That's not so bad.

Instances are bad IMO ... I'll keep saying that every time you say it isn't. :D

If they use the model that everyone else (including themselves) have used, they set a number for max people in an instance. So let's say that's X .... when they start getting close to X (say 80%), they spawn another instance. And then its a matter the total number of players in the first and second instance before they spawn a 3rd, and so on.

Then, as the number of players dwindle, instances are closed ... and in most cases, then renumbered ... so you might of entered instance 4 when you went in, but the first two instances have since closed, so now you're actually in instance 2.

Fortunately, most companies have wised up to this last problem and don't do the reordering anymore because you could tell a friend you were in instance 4 ... but by the time he gets there to join, your instance is now 2 or 3, he enters, can't find you, etc. And then you go through the whole exchange of "What instance are you in?" "Well, I thought it was 4, lemme check again ... Oh, my bad, its 2!" ... now you friend has to run back out, try to join your instance again, and now you're instance 1.

[Colm]

I hated GuildWars because of this. I bought it and maybe played for a week.
I really hope STO doesn't go in that direction.

[Zepath]

I hated GuildWars because of this. I bought it and maybe played for a week.
I really hope STO doesn't go in that direction.

We don't know for sure ... but this is how CO works, and they are using the same exact engine.

[Nasedo]

A) If I'm going to solo a game, I'll choose to not pay for an MMO.

B) If they would adopt the Open Group model that Warhammer uses, you don't have to stand around screaming LFG ... you just see what groups are going on and join one. If you don't want people joining your group, you just close it, and they don't see your group.

You never hear LFG in Warhammer ... the only discussion you hear is if there is anyone that wants to to X quest/PQ/Dungeon

I have played both Multi-servers, and Multi-instance ... I will take Multiservers any day of the week.

to your A: but some solo games are not as fun as MMO solo play, anything you can do in groups or raids you should beable to in solo... since they said you get 5 man BO or 5 player groups it seems like you can :) so alot of people would want to solo and not group :)

B: ok dude , Warhammer down right sucks... try playing WOW, the gerenal chat is filled with LFG

if your talking about mutil instance's like CO has it, i dont like that.. and if your talking about more then 1 huge server, i'll take muti-servers

[Swea]

I playede COduring the Open beta and have a feel for how the system will probly work. I am for this system, each of the instances showed how many friends you had in it and how many teamed were in them. I'd much rather click a menu to switch to where my friends are rather than have to pay for a server transfer or reroll my char. I can see everyones worries as i had them before i played CO, after seeing it first hand i am completly happy with where Cryptic has gone with this.

[Zepath]

to your A: but some solo games are not as fun as MMO solo play, anything you can do in groups or raids you should beable to in solo... since they said you get 5 man BO or 5 player groups it seems like you can :) so alot of people would want to solo and not group :)

B: ok dude , Warhammer down right sucks... try playing WOW, the gerenal chat is filled with LFG

if your talking about mutil instance's like CO has it, i dont like that.. and if your talking about more then 1 huge server, i'll take muti-servers

I played WoW from beta, until a lttle more than a year ago thank you. 4 raiding level 70s (on Frostmane) and about 18 level 60-69s across a multitude of servers.

I play Warhammer now, which doesn't "suck" its simple a different type of game.

If its not your cup of tea, that's fine ... but the game doesn't suck. You won't find a better PvP system on the market today ... and that included WoW, let alone a game that allows 200+ players to fight at once in the same area, with no lag.

[Colm]

We don't know for sure ... but this is how CO works, and they are using the same exact engine.

CO works like GW ?
What I hated In GW is the fact that when you left the city without being grouped, you would just play alone and never meet another player, ever, until you went back to the city. You couldn't just go to your quest location and find people there to help. You had to form a group inside the city, and then go venture outside. It SUCKED ! :eek:

[Zepath]

Yes, CO works like GWs.

Now, that doesn't mean when you leave the Star Base you won't be presented with a list of the instances with the number of players in each ... which would probably eliminate your concern.

My concern is all the limitations the system brings to the table, and the mere fact I hate being prompted with those screens all the time. Not to mention that the one you choose, is guaranteed (in fact it probably won't) be the instance where things are "happeing". 100 users could be 100 people soloing the game ... or it could be 20 groups kicking ass and having fun.

And yes, when I left CoH ... anytime the group left the city, there was this constant of exchange of which instance to go to ... and of course there was always the guy that missed the message (was typing, was going to the bathroom, had a phone call) ... so it was never a single exchange of information

[Dext]

instances is not the way of an MMO. AN yes instances are some times needed for will for the lick of a better word Epic quest but having every part of space ever room in a star base. As the way things are looking I will get STO but will I stay playing it I do not know but they need to fix what there not doing right an if we give up on trying to get them to make the game we like then why bother getting the game at all. So if you do not like what you have seen try an change it post why you do not like the way things are going an maybe they will try to fix it.

An if the game has a bad start then the odds of the game getting the people back in slim.

[thefrayl]

Yes, CO works like GWs.

Well Guild Wars must have changed since I played it. When I did, the City was the only place in the game where you could run into and interact with other players. As soon as you stepped out of the city, you were in your OWN instance.

CO's instances are open. It feels like you are playing on a 'standard' multiple server setup. Very different from what I experienced in Guild Wars...

My concern is all the limitations the system brings to the table, and the mere fact I hate being prompted with those screens all the time.

Then just de-select the "Let me choose every instance" checkbox, like CO's, that will no doubt be there. That's what I do in CO, and it works great.

[Colm]

I didn't realise things were this bad.

I hope they dump the one big server idea and only make instances for grouped missions and raids. I'll get the game anyway, but if I'll stay or not pretty much depends on this.

[thefrayl]

I didn't realise things were this bad.

They really aren't... The word "Instance" is misleading to many, because they think of a Dungeon, like WoW's "Instances". Now don't get me wrong, there will be group specific instances for episodes, but outside of this there will be large, open instances that host many players much like any standard server setup would do, just without the barriers.

This is quite different...

[Zepath]

They really aren't... The word "Instance" is misleading to many, because they think of a Dungeon, like WoW's "Instances". Now don't get me wrong, there will be group specific instances for episodes, but outside of this there will be large, open instances that host many players much like any standard server setup would do, just without the barriers.

This is quite different...

I hope you're right ... but that's not what they did in CoV, that's not what they did in CoH and its not what they are doing in CO, and they are using the same exact engine for this game.

If they do what they have done in their other games ... you'll pull up to a star base, and when you disembark, it will ask you which of the 8 instances of the Star Base you want to use. When you leave the Star Base it will ask you which of the 14 instances of the sector you want to enter.

[thefrayl]

I hope you're right ... but that's not what they did in CoV, that's not what they did in CoH and its not what they are doing in CO, and they are using the same exact engine for this game.

It is what they are doing in CO... I'm taking breaks from playing it to post on here. :)

If they do what they have done in their other games ... you'll pull up to a star base, and when you disembark, it will ask you which of the 8 instances of the Star Base you want to use. When you leave the Star Base it will ask you which of the 14 instances of the sector you want to enter.

Right, but like I said a few posts up, you can just uncheck the "Let me choose an instance" checkbox, and you'll never see these intrusive instance selection screens again.

EDIT: And I've been hearing alot about COH/V instances. Except for mission specific instances (like the countless warehouse and cave clones throughout) it was a standard server setup when I played (couldn't be more than 6 months ago). In fact, I clearly remember the server selection screen when I would launch the game. Did they change it recently?

[Loekii]

Disadvantages:

Lots of instance hopping.
Lack of "huge universe with lots of people" feel.
Many loading screens


Anymore?

I disagree with the 'disadvantages', as I see these aspects occurring on a multiple server system. For example, EQ and WAR have loading screens, and they are not 'instanced' based, and I saw lots of people logging into different servers (their server was dead, their friends we logged on to another server, etc).

And I actually feel the CO system created a much Larger feel than a single server. On average, the population on a Multiple Server system is limited to the population of the server you were on. You log into a LOW pop server, and you are going to be basically playing in a Ghost Town. Even if you log on to a High Pop Server, you are still limited to the say 5k players.

With the CO/STO system, I see it presenting a much larger Universe/game world:

If 100k players are logged on, I am essentially playing with 100k people - just not all in the same zone. On a multiple server system, I am only playing with at best about 5k people.
Zones are balanced for population, so most of the time, I will be entering populated zones, rather than the empty zones I have encountered multiple times on a multi-server system
The instancing allows for an ever growing map. There is basically no limit to the zones. On a linear mapped world, I am limited to the physical space of the map (ie WoW cannot insert a massive new zone inbetween the Barrens and Ducator, for example, because there is not enough room physically).


The disadvantages that I see with the Instancing system are more specific taste related:

Not always getting into the instance you want.
Inability to be the Big Fish in a Little pond. Everyone is basically a little fish in an Ocean.
Loss some of that 'small town' feel, as population is so large, you are not always running in the same circles without a concerted effort.
More difficulty in creating specialty servers. They can create 'specialty instances' but that requires more work.
Inability to Goonswarm a zone (unless you are able to jump in and populated it ahead of others).

[Loekii]

CO works like GW ?
What I hated In GW is the fact that when you left the city without being grouped, you would just play alone and never meet another player, ever, until you went back to the city. You couldn't just go to your quest location and find people there to help. You had to form a group inside the city, and then go venture outside. It SUCKED ! :eek:

That is not how CO worked.

CO worked more like WoW and EQ, where each 'zone' is populated by other people, unless it is specifically set up to be a private instance (like how WoW Dungeons are Private).

If you turn off the 'select' instance, transitions from say the Tutorial, to the Canada Zone, to the PowerHouse for training, to the Desert Zone, back to Millenium City, all felt like playing EQ and changing zones via Teleport/Wizzy Spires/Druid Rings. Each of those zones were FULL of other players, outside my group.

Infact, the instances in CO were consistently more full than what I normally found in EQ, WoW, EQ2, WAR, etc.

[blujester]

It is what they are doing in CO... I'm taking breaks from playing it to post on here. :)



Right, but like I said a few posts up, you can just uncheck the "Let me choose an instance" checkbox, and you'll never see these intrusive instance selection screens again.

EDIT: And I've been hearing alot about COH/V instances. Except for mission specific instances (like the countless warehouse and cave clones throughout) it was a standard server setup when I played (couldn't be more than 6 months ago). In fact, I clearly remember the server selection screen when I would launch the game. Did they change it recently?



No... there are multiple atlas parks at peak times on busy servers but only once the population cap is near. The way they do it is open AP2 at about 75% pop cap so it will fill up too and not be a ghost town.


Bj

[rporter]

It's a way for all your friends to not worry about what server they happened to roll on.

Typical multiple server scenario:

Friend: "Omg, you play STO! That's awesome! What server you on?"

You: "I'm on the Dyson server... How about you?"

Friend: "Oh man, c'mon leave that dump and join my server, there's so many awesome people here"

You: "But I already have a Tier 4 ship... it'll take me forev...."

Friend: "Never mind that, it won't take too long getting all that stuff back! You should just..."

You: "Well how about you come to my server instead?" -- Endless bickering continues ~


With this system, yes there are drawbacks ~ It feels less like a massive game as a main one... But if 'any' of your friends from around the world are online and you want to join some big fleet battle ~ There's no trouble at all =)


-Manta-


This is a huge reason that I'm in favor of the way they implemented Champions Online.

[KirksOtherSon]

After playing on a server model like the one planned here, I for one think that several instances on one big network of a server is the much preferrable option to the traditional multiple server approach.

You essentially get the same thing, but without the unbreakable barriers between servers. It works very well, and encourages social interaction by ensuring that the zone you play in is always well populated. And really, how often to you see more than 140 people (A normal CO instance cap just for reference) in a single zone on multi server games anyway?

It's not nearly as bad as it sounds.

Agreed, Frayl. There's a lot of "chicken little-ing" concerning this issue -- people freaking out sight-unseen based on what they _fear_ will happen. I strongly suspect that once they actually _play_ the game first-hand, and see how the system is intended to work, they'll realize that their fears are groundless.

Cheers,

KOS

[Loekii]

This is a huge reason that I'm in favor of the way they implemented Champions Online.

For me, is I am so sick of 'dead servers' and 'ghost towns'. I am a casual player, and tend to PUG and solo, as I don't have time to share with a guild. I would often be away from the game for a month(s), to come back and find that the server is each 'dead', or that most have moved on to the endgame, leaving teh lower levels empty (or filled with alts/mule that people were just gaming up).

I think this system a real solution to those experiences.

[Roy_Vash]

I disagree with the 'disadvantages', as I see these aspects occurring on a multiple server system. For example, EQ and WAR have loading screens, and they are not 'instanced' based, and I saw lots of people logging into different servers (their server was dead, their friends we logged on to another server, etc).

And I actually feel the CO system created a much Larger feel than a single server. On average, the population on a Multiple Server system is limited to the population of the server you were on. You log into a LOW pop server, and you are going to be basically playing in a Ghost Town. Even if you log on to a High Pop Server, you are still limited to the say 5k players.

With the CO/STO system, I see it presenting a much larger Universe/game world:

If 100k players are logged on, I am essentially playing with 100k people - just not all in the same zone. On a multiple server system, I am only playing with at best about 5k people.
Zones are balanced for population, so most of the time, I will be entering populated zones, rather than the empty zones I have encountered multiple times on a multi-server system
The instancing allows for an ever growing map. There is basically no limit to the zones. On a linear mapped world, I am limited to the physical space of the map (ie WoW cannot insert a massive new zone inbetween the Barrens and Ducator, for example, because there is not enough room physically).


The disadvantages that I see with the Instancing system are more specific taste related:

Not always getting into the instance you want.
Inability to be the Big Fish in a Little pond. Everyone is basically a little fish in an Ocean.
Loss some of that 'small town' feel, as population is so large, you are not always running in the same circles without a concerted effort.
More difficulty in creating specialty servers. They can create 'specialty instances' but that requires more work.
Inability to Goonswarm a zone (unless you are able to jump in and populated it ahead of others).








Exactly. I have been MMOing since Meridian 59 and I'm always amazed at the objections that more modern server mechanics promp from some gamers. I once spent a horrendous evening in the Dark Elf noobie zone on the first night of Sullen Zek with 3200 of my closest friends <(not) arguing over kills and loot. It was not a high point of my community experience.

I have played Guild Wars since early in beta and still log on today because there were no long term "small town" community expectations except through my guild. The guild became the local feel.

Loekii, I'm sure you'll not be surprised when I say that your disadvantages even look like advantages to me.

[Nasedo]

I played WoW from beta, until a lttle more than a year ago thank you. 4 raiding level 70s (on Frostmane) and about 18 level 60-69s across a multitude of servers.

I play Warhammer now, which doesn't "suck" its simple a different type of game.

If its not your cup of tea, that's fine ... but the game doesn't suck. You won't find a better PvP system on the market today ... and that included WoW, let alone a game that allows 200+ players to fight at once in the same area, with no lag.

its easy to have 200+ players fighting in the same area at once, the PVP in Warhammer down right sucks. i watch my friend pvp in war all the time, you just stand there auto attacking, unlike wow will you move around alot Cast spells and so on,,, that can cause lag

[Zepath]

its easy to have 200+ players fighting in the same area at once, the PVP in Warhammer down right sucks. i watch my friend pvp in war all the time, you just stand there auto attacking, unlike wow will you move around alot Cast spells and so on,,, that can cause lag

If your friend is standing there auto-attacking, he's not playing the game right. And he's not living long ... unless you were watching him play in the starter zones. You stand in one place in Tier 4 for more than a couple of seconds, you're dead ... I don't care what class you are.

Regardless, name me another game where you can have 200+ people on the the same battlefield, fighting the same fight, and not be suffering lag.

WoW can't even handle 40 players in the same battle-ground most of the time.

[Nasedo]

If your friend is standing there auto-attacking, he's not playing the game right. And he's not living long ... unless you were watching him play in the starter zones. You stand in one place in Tier 4 for more than a couple of seconds, you're dead ... I don't care what class you are.

Regardless, name me another game where you can have 200+ people on the the same battlefield, fighting the same fight, and not be suffering lag.

WoW can't even handle 40 players in the same battle-ground most of the time.

when you think about it. wow can hold way more then 200 players..

wintergrasp... back when i played wow i use to do that all the time , and on my server (forstwolf) Ally it self would have 3 raid groups of 40. and the horde would have some where around 3 maybe 4.way above 200. and on my server that was light. and during the afternoon where everyone is at work...
evenings (when everyone gets home from work) we would get around 4 or 5 ally raid groups and horde would get 6 or 7. and then we were get HUGE Lag Spikes..

P.S when its laging that bad horde always kills us :( there pro at killing us with lag

Nasedo

[Zepath]

when you think about it. wow can hold way more then 200 players..

wintergrasp... back when i played wow i use to do that all the time , and on my server (forstwolf) Ally it self would have 3 raid groups of 40. and the horde would have some where around 3 maybe 4.way above 200. and on my server that was light. and during the afternoon where everyone is at work...
evenings (when everyone gets home from work) we would get around 4 or 5 ally raid groups and horde would get 6 or 7. and then we were get HUGE Lag Spikes..

P.S when its laging that bad horde always kills us :( there pro at killing us with lag

Nasedo

Our discussion was, 200+ people WITHOUT lag spikes. Warhammer does that daily.

What was your character's name on Frostwolf? Frostwolf (which was merged with Frostmane) was my server. I was in the "Sword and Shield" guild, which later split and became just the "The Sword" .... we used to have some epic battles there with the "Sad Pandas" Horde guild.

The core members of the Sad Pandas actually because a sponsored team in the WoW Competitive matches they used to play for money.

That open PvP stuff was some of the most fun I had in WoW ... when they moved PvP to Battlegrounds and Arenas, it started to blow.

[Nasedo]

Our discussion was, 200+ people WITHOUT lag spikes. Warhammer does that daily.

What was your character's name on Frostwolf? Frostwolf (which was merged with Frostmane) was my server. I was in the "Sword and Shield" guild, which later split and became just the "The Sword" .... we used to have some epic battles there with the "Sad Pandas" Horde guild.

The core members of the Sad Pandas actually because a sponsored team in the WoW Competitive matches they used to play for money.

That open PvP stuff was some of the most fun I had in WoW ... when they moved PvP to Battlegrounds and Arenas, it started to blow.

will you never said daily...and its all about when you do them, if its evening there huge lag spikes. if there during the afternoon you dont lag at all..

and i use to be in The Vagrants Top 3 best guild on Forstwolf, are number one guild was Steel Talon Knights

[Sorbek]

There are too many "I want it now and don't make me work for it" people in MMOs today.

They don't want to build a community in a game. They just want to solo and pretend everyone else doesn't exsist. Even to the point of KSing just because they know they will never see that person again.

I loved in EQ your actions had consequences...train a zone on purpose, get a bunch of people killed? Guess what the entire community shuns you. Just as it should be.

There is no accountablity in this game with instances... No need to depend on anyone else to help you. So no need to form friendships in game. Friendships in MMOs are what keep people playing. Anyone that tells you differently is WRONG. I personally met over 200 people in EQ in RL between guilds and people I just ran into in RL that happened to play on my server and knew who my character was!!! We were Friends for years and they were the reason I kept logging in after I was bored with the game.

[Exist-nl-]

There are too many "I want it now and don't make me work for it" people in MMOs today.

They don't want to build a community in a game. They just want to solo and pretend everyone else doesn't exsist. Even to the point of KSing just because they know they will never see that person again.

I loved in EQ your actions had consequences...train a zone on purpose, get a bunch of people killed? Guess what the entire community shuns you. Just as it should be.

There is no accountablity in this game with instances... No need to depend on anyone else to help you. So no need to form friendships in game. Friendships in MMOs are what keep people playing. Anyone that tells you differently is WRONG. I personally met over 200 people in EQ in RL between guilds and people I just ran into in RL that happened to play on my server and knew who my character was!!! We were Friends for years and they were the reason I kept logging in after I was bored with the game.

But not everyone is as hardcore as you and have a lot of time to spent on the community part, so they should just be forgotten, the people that love startrek and just want to play an episode and hour or so everyday or that just want to jump in and play a pvp battle should be left out ?

[Krakkken]

[

With this system, yes there are drawbacks ~ It feels less like a massive game as a main one... But if 'any' of your friends from around the world are online and you want to join some big fleet battle ~ There's no trouble at all =)


-Manta-[/QUOTE]

Actualy the biggest draw back is that instanced games are kiddy games. There no fun for the players who have a sense of imagination and want endless exploration. Instanced games in its on nature are limited play, limited space, and unfortunatly limited content per instance. Cryptic should have made this game as wide open, especialy space, as the orignal cannon. In the mantra "go where no man has gone before" is shot to hell. Now its "go where every man has to go, again, again, and again."

[Sorbek]

But not everyone is as hardcore as you and have a lot of time to spent on the community part, so they should just be forgotten, the people that love startrek and just want to play an episode and hour or so everyday or that just want to jump in and play a pvp battle should be left out ?


Yes, you should be playing a single player game. That is what they are for. This is an MMO.

Edited for the rest

I do not have a ton of time myself. Maybe 16 hours a week if I'm lucky. I already know I will not be able to progress as fast as the other players or even to get to see content because of my limited schedule if they do end up making group content. I would never dream of asking someone to have to deal with an over simplified game just because I don't have time to put into something. That is selfish.

[Exist-nl-]

Yes, you should be playing a single player game. That is what they are for. This is an MMO.

Edited for the rest

I do not have a ton of time myself. Maybe 16 hours a week if I'm lucky. I already know I will not be able to progress as fast as the other players or even to get to see content because of my limited schedule if they do end up making group content. I would never dream of asking someone to have to deal with an over simplified game just because I don't have time to put into something. That is selfish.

No I still want to interact with player all over the world but I dont want to be in a clan/guild/group that counts on me to play the game daily.
That why I quit eve-online you are almost forced in a corp to be able to have fun in that game. IMO

Im not stating the game should be a singleplayer experience I'm just saying that we should and can have the best from both worlds.

[Sorbek]

No I still want to interact with player all over the world but I dont want to be in a clan/guild/group that counts on me to play the game daily.
That why I quit eve-online you are almost forced in a corp to be able to have fun in that game. IMO

Im not stating the game should be a singleplayer experience I'm just saying that we should and can have the best from both worlds.


I'm a hardcore player (when I play) but I do not play the forced to be there game with guilds..even if I know them in RL.

If I'm there I will participate, but if I'm busy playing with my little boy, work or something else I won't.

I just don't have unreasonable expectations that I should be able to get any and everything like a player that puts in a lot of time and effort into something does. There are some things that I just shouldn't be able to do or have access to. If I really have that small of an amount of time to play it won't be a problem for me because I'll never reach that point if they make the game with enough content.

Sorry..edited for this..lol

Like Scotty said..."If somethings important, you make the time."

That being said..when it comes to the little man and this game its no contest he wins.
Soon as he goes to sleep though...its on like Donkey Kong. I will gladly sacrifice a little sleep for this game.

[thefrayl]

Actualy the biggest draw back is that instanced games are kiddy games.

You heard it here first, folks. Instanced games are kiddy games and nothing more.

...Seriously, how do you figure?

There no fun for the players who have a sense of imagination and want endless exploration. Instanced games in its on nature are limited play, limited space, and unfortunatly limited content per instance. Cryptic should have made this game as wide open, especialy space, as the orignal cannon. In the mantra "go where no man has gone before" is shot to hell. Now its "go where every man has to go, again, again, and again."

I'd still like to know how the problems and limitations you described are ANY different from a more traditional server setup, or even a single server that has zones? It's no different at all. You'll still end up going to the same places countless times, just like you would in real life as well... That's just the nature of an MMO.

[Zepath]

Yeah, I don't think "kiddie games" is a fair assessment ... LotR, DDO, EQII, they all use multiple instancing. They are not "kiddie games". Of course millions of people bailed on those games for WoW, which is a multiserver system ... but hey, what do they know? I guess they are all idiots.

As for the problems and limitations of a multi-instanced system .... we have three threads going where people have explained this over and over and over.

[jamesx]

Taking in what has been said by the developers and how I know Champions Online works, I don't feel this is going to be as bad as you believe, besides I know they can make certain places public instances and they've already stated that with regards to certain places like the Starbase above Earth and they might even include Earth locations as public spaces too.

There is loads of stuff they can do to make it feel more alive and less isolated, so far from what i've seen of Champions Online, I don't think you've got anything to be worried about. I'm pretty confident that they'll make STO a very impressive game.

[Sorbek]

Taking in what has been said by the developers and how I know Champions Online works, I don't feel this is going to be as bad as you believe, besides I know they can make certain places public instances and they've already stated that with regards to certain places like the Starbase above Earth and they might even include Earth locations as public spaces too.

There is loads of stuff they can do to make it feel more alive and less isolated, so far from what i've seen of Champions Online, I don't think you've got anything to be worried about. I'm pretty confident that they'll make STO a very impressive game.

How many people have you grouped with or talked to in game...so far since I joined beta in 2008 its a total of 3...people talked to..1 person to group with when i was new and didn't understand things were so easy.

Is this what you want STO to be like?

Players will always take the path of least resistance. If that means they can solo everything they will and grouping will just become a thing of the past.

[naynayz]

i played CO and it looks Very Fun..you know what makes it fun? i dont have to stand around spaming LFG for 5 hours, because most of the Stuff in CO you can solo your self

so maybe STO would be like 75% solo and 25% 5 man raids.

unlike wow (its boreding because of this) you have to sit around and spam LFG for 5 hours because most of the stuff there needs a group.. 80% of the time you need a Group or a raid to do anything..20% of the time you can level up by your self and do dailys by your self..

to me that isnt fun

I played CO as well and I think we can determine somethings that are base game engine types of things but something tells me that we may see things a little different for STO. You pinned it though Nasedo. I stopped playing EQ2 for the same reason you thought wow was boring. once you get to max level, there are still places you can't go without a group... not to mention the "right group" has to be the ones going so you wait for 5 hours with lfg and eventually log off cause you are tired of waiting. That practically forces you into a guild and then you have all the politics that brings. I liked the way that CO worked cause it was about 75% solo content and 25% group content, you actually felt like the hero all by yourself. I also like that the quests will advise you if you may need more than you.

[Zepath]

How many people have you grouped with or talked to in game...so far since I joined beta in 2008 its a total of 3...people talked to..1 person to group with when i was new and didn't understand things were so easy.

Is this what you want STO to be like?

Players will always take the path of least resistance. If that means they can solo everything they will and grouping will just become a thing of the past.

Well, I think you better just prepare yourself for that. It is apparently the goal of Cryptic that you never need to belong to fleet. I don't get it ... but there's a lot of people in this forum that is onboard with that.

I don't know that its the majority, but what matters is, it appears to be significant enough, that apparently Cryptic sees Fleets as not much more than a role playing vehicle.

[naynayz]

How many people have you grouped with or talked to in game...so far since I joined beta in 2008 its a total of 3...people talked to..1 person to group with when i was new and didn't understand things were so easy.

Is this what you want STO to be like?

Players will always take the path of least resistance. If that means they can solo everything they will and grouping will just become a thing of the past.

Or the other side of the coin, grouping will become more of what it should be, once in awhile you group with others to complete a particular quest and then go your separate ways. I have spoke to way more people than that and I was only in beta recently. Does someone prefer to work alone I take it? Personally, I feel you shouldn't "force people to group up". I like the quests that you just walk into an area with whoever is also doing that quest. I thought those were great! Totally new system that I have not ever seen before.

[Loekii]

Actualy the biggest draw back is that instanced games are kiddy games. There no fun for the players who have a sense of imagination and want endless exploration. Instanced games in its on nature are limited play, limited space, and unfortunatly limited content per instance. Cryptic should have made this game as wide open, especialy space, as the orignal cannon. In the mantra "go where no man has gone before" is shot to hell. Now its "go where every man has to go, again, again, and again."

Actually, I would say that this system requires MORE imagination, and presents LESS limitation.

There are no limits to the number of instances they can create. In static maps like EQ, WoW, etc, zones are physically limited because they are placed together like a puzzle, with basically no room to add more zones. When EQ added 'areas', they had to create another island, for example.

With the STO system, they are not limited by the physical scale and boundaries of the map, and can place hundreds of zones of content between Sol and Vulcan. So it is far less limited than a static map of WoW or EQ.

And it requires more imagination, to be able to comprehend that layout -- especially when you are looking at the difference between the scale of Warp Travel and Impulse Travel, and the sheer number of zones that are possible with this system.

And seeing how CO demonstrated that their zones/instances were not 'private solo instances', but rather copies of zones containing dozens of quests and content with over 100 players in a single zone --- they had zones with 300 players, but beta testers felt it was too crowded -- I am not seeing how this is not a Massive Mulitplayer Online RPG. You have the potential to literally encounter/pass by 100k players with your single toon -- which is a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER experience.

[Zepath]

You have the potential to literally encounter/pass by 100k players with your single toon -- which is a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER experience.
[/COLOR]

:eek: God, that alone makes me yearn for Multiple servers.

[Sorbek]

Or the other side of the coin, grouping will become more of what it should be, once in awhile you group with others to complete a particular quest and then go your separate ways. I have spoke to way more people than that and I was only in beta recently. Does someone prefer to work alone I take it? Personally, I feel you shouldn't "force people to group up". I like the quests that you just walk into an area with whoever is also doing that quest. I thought those were great! Totally new system that I have not ever seen before.


Single player games are made to solo go play that. Grouping belongs in MMOs. They didn't start off calling them Massive "Multiplayer" Online games for nothing.

Please forgive me for wanting something with a little difficulty.

[Baphomet69]

We don't know for sure ... but this is how CO works, and they are using the same exact engine.

And herein lies my concern. I just tried CO and HATED it! I can't believe they brought that to market. My experience with CO has me seriously concerned about STO. :eek:

I'm not talking about the server/instance model, I mean the game as a whole.

[Loekii]

How many people have you grouped with or talked to in game...so far since I joined beta in 2008 its a total of 3...people talked to..1 person to group with when i was new and didn't understand things were so easy.

Is this what you want STO to be like?

Players will always take the path of least resistance. If that means they can solo everything they will and grouping will just become a thing of the past.

How many did you actually make an effort to talk to?

I only played a few hours of the Open Beta and in those FEW HOURS, I:

Spoke with about 10 people in /General Chat
Spoke with about 15 people in private /Tells
Spoke with about 3 people in /SAY
Grouped 4 times
Saw about 30 /LFG requests in Zone Chat


There were examples of time where I started the conversation, and where others started the conversation. And they were all in the same zone as I was in.

Now granted, I am social when I play, even to the point of using /emotes to interact with other players. However, if I was able to be that social in just a few hours, I am unsure why you barely had any social interaction over months of play.

And in those few hours of play, zones were MORE POPULATED than the zones in WAR at release.

So I really do not see how you felt 'isolated' and how CO was 'empty'. I have played for hours on WoW and WAR servers, and only seen maybe 10 other players. In CO, the only time I saw less than say 25 other player was maybe when I entered the Power House to train (a building), or when I was in a 'private' boss mob zone (ie the spiritual ice lake through the magic portal in Canada's newbee zone).

[Zepath]

And herein lies my concern. I just tried CO and HATED it! I can't believe they brought that to market. My experience with CO has me seriously concerned about STO. :eek:

I'm not talking about the server/instance model, I mean the game as a whole.

Let's be fair ... they haven't brought it to market, yet.

I have deep concerns, but let's be fair with Cryptic.

[Swea]

So tired of the its an MMO go play a single player game if you wanna solo excuse, its lame. Not calling anyone lame, ppl play MMO's for many many reason only one of them being its a MMO. I play them cause the content is almost always better than a single player game, I play them for the times i do feel like grouping, but also enjoy some alone time every now and then. I play them because there is no END, unlike single player games. I play them because 50 bucks on a MMO makes more sence to me than 50 bucks on a single player game im goin to finish in a few hours, then get bored of in a week or so.

I spend a fair amount of time grouped up also, though typically with fleet/guild mates. I dont do it because i have to i do it because i enjoy it. Not everyone does, and theres time im not feeling it either, I for one agree with the soloable/group if you wanna way MMO's are heading. Far too many ppl only play a few hours a week to be left out of equasions. Especially from a business standpoint.

[Zepath]

So tired of the its an MMO go play a single player game if you wanna solo excuse, its lame. Not calling anyone lame, ppl play MMO's for many many reason only one of them being its a MMO. I play them cause the content is almost always better than a single player game, I play them for the times i do feel like grouping, but also enjoy some alone time every now and then. I play them because there is no END, unlike single player games. I play them because 50 bucks on a MMO makes more sence to me than 50 bucks on a single player game im goin to finish in a few hours, then get bored of in a week or so.

I spend a fair amount of time grouped up also, though typically with fleet/guild mates. I dont do it because i have to i do it because i enjoy it. Not everyone does, and theres time im not feeling it either, I for one agree with the soloable/group if you wanna way MMO's are heading. Far too many ppl only play a few hours a week to be left out of equasions. Especially from a business standpoint.

I don't have a problem with your play style Swea, what prompts the response you're tired of is the fact that people want to play solo, are trying for it on people who come to these games for the MMO aspect of playing with large numbers of players.

And I just don't agree with you that the content in MMOs is better than in solo games. Broader content, yes. More content, yes. Constantly added content yes.

But better? No, I don't agree.

[Loekii]

Single player games are made to solo go play that. Grouping belongs in MMOs. They didn't start off calling them Massive "Multiplayer" Online games for nothing.

Please forgive me for wanting something with a little difficulty.

I have played MMORPGs for over a decade, and I am curious what game you are citing where you could not solo play. I know it cannot be EQ, because I often soloed in that game, even got by simply Duoing with a friend and just shadowing a group crawling through a dungeon. And before that, I was soloing in Dragonrealms and GemIII (muds).

Now I do agree there is a difference between the proportions of solo and grouping content, and that is something that is up to what the market is looking for.

I think it is too soon to proclaim that STO doesn't require any grouping. In fact, ground content seems to be grouped based, with the option to use NPCs if you cannot or do not want to fill a slot with a player. I would imagine Borg content will be on a Massive scale, requiring multiple groups of ships, to work together. CO's event seemed to require a concerted effort by players.

[Swea]

also want to say again I wasnt calling anyone lame, lame probly wasnt the right word, its early and its theonly word i could come up with at the time :)

[Swea]

I don't have a problem with your play style Swea, what prompts the response you're tired of is the fact that people want to play solo, are trying for it on people who come to these games for the MMO aspect of playing with large numbers of players.

And I just don't agree with you that the content in MMOs is better than in solo games. Broader content, yes. More content, yes. Constantly added content yes.

But better? No, I don't agree.

I wasnt saying i9m tired of ppl wanting to solo im tired of ppl saying ppl that want to solo MMO's are any less importantr than those that dont

[Swea]

I do think your discription of MMO content is prolly more accurate Zepath, though for me that makes it better

[Zepath]

I wasnt saying i9m tired of ppl wanting to solo im tired of ppl saying ppl that want to solo MMO's are any less importantr than those that dont

I understand ... but that response is defensive. MMO players are tired of being told all the content should be solo-able. It shouldn't. The entire point of an MMO is interdependence and interaction with other players.

[Swea]

thats what it is to you, MMO means massive mutiplayer online, nothing in the name states what those players have to be doing. Ppl that want to solo should have content for that. im not saying we should be able to solo everything. I agree with what Loekii has been saying through out this thread for the most part, just to shorten my statement a bit. I think there should be alot of content both ways as yes alot about a MMO is the grouping but i dont agree with forcing it on anyone either just cause its an MMO. There will be Content that requires groups, having solo content gives ppl that dont want to group the ability to skip said content and still advance, I dont see anything wrong with that.

[Sorbek]

I have played MMORPGs for over a decade, and I am curious what game you are citing where you could not solo play. I know it cannot be EQ, because I often soloed in that game, even got by simply Duoing with a friend and just shadowing a group crawling through a dungeon. And before that, I was soloing in Dragonrealms and GemIII (muds).

Now I do agree there is a difference between the proportions of solo and grouping content, and that is something that is up to what the market is looking for.

I think it is too soon to proclaim that STO doesn't require any grouping. In fact, ground content seems to be grouped based, with the option to use NPCs if you cannot or do not want to fill a slot with a player. I would imagine Borg content will be on a Massive scale, requiring multiple groups of ships, to work together. CO's event seemed to require a concerted effort by players.

I can guarantee you didn't see any of the big content in EQ then, NToV, Veeshan's Peak, Trakanon, VTS, Vindicator, Avatar of War, Plane of Sky, or any of the Planes for that matter especially Time. That is naming just a few of the things I can knowingly say you never saw from just "duoing".

Games like SWG and EQ didn't build such awesome communities because everything was attainable by yourself. The communities formed because of the interdependency on other players in the game. That is what made them so great. Why players stayed as long as they did with those games. In fact very few SWG fans would have even left if not for SoE's screw up.

[The_Padre]

I can guarantee you didn't see any of the big content in EQ then, NToV, Veeshan's Peak, Trakanon, VTS, Vindicator, Avatar of War, Plane of Sky, or any of the Planes for that matter especially Time. That is naming just a few of the things I can knowingly say you never saw from just "duoing".

Games like SWG and EQ didn't build such awesome communities because everything was attainable by yourself. The communities formed because of the interdependency on other players in the game. That is what made them so great. Why players stayed as long as they did with those games. In fact very few SWG fans would have even left if not for SoE's screw up.

Champions Online won't allow you to attain everything by just yourself or duoing. There's just as much content that requires grouping in CO, and that is actually the best content in the game. The Doctor Destroyer lair raid being one of them for example.

[Sorbek]

How many did you actually make an effort to talk to?

I only played a few hours of the Open Beta and in those FEW HOURS, I:

Spoke with about 10 people in /General Chat
Spoke with about 15 people in private /Tells
Spoke with about 3 people in /SAY
Grouped 4 times
Saw about 30 /LFG requests in Zone Chat


There were examples of time where I started the conversation, and where others started the conversation. And they were all in the same zone as I was in.

Now granted, I am social when I play, even to the point of using /emotes to interact with other players. However, if I was able to be that social in just a few hours, I am unsure why you barely had any social interaction over months of play.

And in those few hours of play, zones were MORE POPULATED than the zones in WAR at release.

So I really do not see how you felt 'isolated' and how CO was 'empty'. I have played for hours on WoW and WAR servers, and only seen maybe 10 other players. In CO, the only time I saw less than say 25 other player was maybe when I entered the Power House to train (a building), or when I was in a 'private' boss mob zone (ie the spiritual ice lake through the magic portal in Canada's newbee zone).


Do most players do what you do? No, especially not the power gamers. You know the ones people cry about when they get their arse stomped in PvP or that always have the best items from PvE encounters? In its current state, it is much faster to solo your way up to the top and this includes in PvP for CO. I have seen 1 person take on 6-7 players by his self in PvP just because of the damage/regen abilities you can stack with each other.

As for those people you interacted with..What were their names? Their Powers? How many times have you seen or grouped with them again?

I'm betting you can't answer very few if any of those questions right there. I'm willing to bet the answer to the last question is none at all. That is the difference between a game with a community and something like CO.

[Loekii]

I can guarantee you didn't see any of the big content in EQ then, NToV, Veeshan's Peak, Trakanon, VTS, Vindicator, Avatar of War, Plane of Sky, or any of the Planes for that matter especially Time. That is naming just a few of the things I can knowingly say you never saw from just "duoing".

Games like SWG and EQ didn't build such awesome communities because everything was attainable by yourself. The communities formed because of the interdependency on other players in the game. That is what made them so great. Why players stayed as long as they did with those games. In fact very few SWG fans would have even left if not for SoE's screw up.

The point is, that an MMORPG is not just about grouping, its about solo play as well.

An MMORPG is simply a game that allows many players to play along side each other -- be it soloing or grouping.

Now, to be clear, I do not expect, nor want a game to allow me to solo everything. I enjoy grouping, just not too much of it. For example, I enjoyed in WoW, how I needed to group for Dungeon instances -- and wished there was more of that type of content. I enjoyed the level of grouping needed in Vangard -- but the lack of population really stiffled my ability to play -- cant really move forward when there is no one to group with.

I think both grouping and soloing both have a place in an MMORPG. It about getting the balance correct, imo.

Now, the one thing I do disagree on about as much as I disagree with the idea of being able to solo everything, is the idea of making 'guild content' the pinicale of things (ie cutting off people that simply choose not to join a guild, from end game content).

[Zepath]

I can guarantee you didn't see any of the big content in EQ then, NToV, Veeshan's Peak, Trakanon, VTS, Vindicator, Avatar of War, Plane of Sky, or any of the Planes for that matter especially Time. That is naming just a few of the things I can knowingly say you never saw from just "duoing".

Games like SWG and EQ didn't build such awesome communities because everything was attainable by yourself. The communities formed because of the interdependency on other players in the game. That is what made them so great. Why players stayed as long as they did with those games. In fact very few SWG fans would have even left if not for SoE's screw up.

I'd still be playing SW;G and not looking for a new MMO if SOE hadn't turned the game on its head and messed it up so bad .... and guess why they did it? Trying to attract the casual player with an easier (solo-able) game content and instant gratification.

Now the game is dying a slow, painful, death.

I will go to my grave with the belief that SW;G was the only game on the market, at the time, that could of seriously given Blizzard a run for their money ... SOE just fumbled the ball. Which they seem to do a lot.

[Loekii]

Do most players do what you do? No, especially not the power gamers. You know the ones people cry about when they get their arse stomped in PvP or that always have the best items from PvE encounters? In its current state, it is much faster to solo your way up to the top and this includes in PvP for CO. I have seen 1 person take on 6-7 players by his self in PvP just because of the damage/regen abilities you can stack with each other.

As for those people you interacted with..What were their names? Their Powers? How many times have you seen or grouped with them again?

I'm betting you can't answer very few if any of those questions right there. I'm willing to bet the answer to the last question is none at all. That is the difference between a game with a community and something like CO.

And again, I can say your question also applies to WoW, WAR, and other MMOs I have played.

What you are describing is not a product of the CO set up, but rather the product of the Typical MMORPG gamer. CO/STO could have a multi-server set up, and even have most of its stuff be forced grouping, and you would generally still see the same types of behaviors.

Actually, you would also see alot more 'blind group invites' - where you get invited into a group and no one talks. They just burn through content to get to the 'end game'.

Have I found the same type of friend I had in EQ? No. And imo, that is because the genre was new. 10 years later, the typical MMORPG game has changed. I mean look at this forum, and how much different it is compared to other game forums. We are fortunate on these forums, but I think generally it is a rareity, just like 'enjoyable social gamers' tend to be rare in today's MMORPGs. Just my opinion.

[pyriel2005]

I hope that I am wrong but I would have to say that I am very concerned about the direction that STO has taken. There are a combination of factors that I have noticed over the course of development that seem to stick out the most in my mind. For example the fact that persistent social ship interiors are no longer in the plans for launch is a minus, yes, but on it's own it does not cause that much damage. I can understand Cryptic's reasoning in deciding to tackle that post launch. The trouble comes with the addition of a few other key factors: the seemingly quasi-arcade style combat, and what seems to be a heavily instanced environment navigated via "sector space map"; which reminds one a tad of Mass Effect's or KOTOR's galaxy map interface. These aspects combined could seriously effect any kind of "immersive" Star Trek experience, having to navigate from instance to instance via a "sector-space map" is a bad idea in my opinion. Sorry but I just find the concept a clumsy system that will "take one out of the game" in a sense. The STO I had always envisioned was something that imparted the so called "Star Trek experience" as best as can be achieved through the MMO medium, these factors I find to be in conflict with that particular goal. But again I hope that I am wrong.

[Mozcol]

I'd still be playing SW;G and not looking for a new MMO if SOE hadn't turned the game on its head and messed it up so bad .... and guess why they did it? Trying to attract the casual player with an easier (solo-able) game content and instant gratification.

Now the game is dying a slow, painful, death.

I will go to my grave with the belief that SW;G was the only game on the market, at the time, that could of seriously given Blizzard a run for their money ... SOE just fumbled the ball. Which they seem to do a lot.

AS much as I liked SWG and wish they still had pre-cu subs were already falling steadily because of a lack of content, there was no content really, no end game. They went with the CU and NGE to attract more players and failed because they were crappy systems when all they had to do was add alot of fun content.

[runrhino06]

The point is, that an MMORPG is not just about grouping, its about solo play as well.

An MMORPG is simply a game that allows many players to play along side each other -- be it soloing or grouping.

Now, to be clear, I do not expect, nor want a game to allow me to solo everything. I enjoy grouping, just not too much of it. For example, I enjoyed in WoW, how I needed to group for Dungeon instances -- and wished there was more of that type of content. I enjoyed the level of grouping needed in Vangard -- but the lack of population really stiffled my ability to play -- cant really move forward when there is no one to group with.

I think both grouping and soloing both have a place in an MMORPG. It about getting the balance correct, imo.

Now, the one thing I do disagree on about as much as I disagree with the idea of being able to solo everything, is the idea of making 'guild content' the pinicale of things (ie cutting off people that simply choose not to join a guild, from end game content).


I am basically the same way as you Loekii. I played WoW too there for about 4-5 years. The main thing I liked about WoW was World PvP whether grouped or solo. Running through instances depended on you being with a great guild having people that used common sense to be grouped with and those instances originally took 40 people before they changed it down to 10/25 ppl. The main thing I didn't like about WoW is the constant grind for end game gear. After so long it becomes a job.

One thing that I look for in any MMO game is people with common sense especially within the game to spend time with. Whether we go and PvP or do an instance...I want to have the option of going and interacting. That's a HUGE point of being an MMO. Should everything be balanced to meet groups....NEGATIVE! I want to be able to get online and do things on my own if I want that freedom.

If STO is setup similar to CO, we should expect one main server with several instance servers for missions. An example of this is sharing space with each other but when beaming down to a planet, joining a specific server. I kind of like this idea for the thought that if you have RL friends or whatever...they don't have to change servers to join you and also that instance servers will be able to allow you to work with your fleet down on the surface for harder episodes.

[blarneystone]

Depends on the instance threshold to me. There are pros and cons on both sides.

My fear is that it becomes like DDO - which was nothing but instances and was pretty ridiculous. If they set it up so that a new instance is only created when having only the current number would create performance issues, then it's fine. Having multiple static half empty instances all the time is lame.

[Loekii]

Depends on the instance threshold to me. There are pros and cons on both sides.

My fear is that it becomes like DDO - which was nothing but instances and was pretty ridiculous. If they set it up so that a new instance is only created when having only the current number would create performance issues, then it's fine. Having multiple static half empty instances all the time is lame.

If it is like CO, it wont be like DDO, but rather be closer to EQ (with copies of each zone as the population warrents it).

[Nasedo]

I played CO as well and I think we can determine somethings that are base game engine types of things but something tells me that we may see things a little different for STO. You pinned it though Nasedo. I stopped playing EQ2 for the same reason you thought wow was boring. once you get to max level, there are still places you can't go without a group... not to mention the "right group" has to be the ones going so you wait for 5 hours with lfg and eventually log off cause you are tired of waiting. That practically forces you into a guild and then you have all the politics that brings. I liked the way that CO worked cause it was about 75% solo content and 25% group content, you actually felt like the hero all by yourself. I also like that the quests will advise you if you may need more than you.

lately for the passed 10 + Months i heard everyone crying of the same reason naynayz...alot of my friends feel the same way, you (CANT) do anything solo you need people and that take time , time you could be out having fun

STO it seems like you already have a group (4 BO) so you may not need a group for much of anything in STO (unless its world events)

i guess you could group up with people but what ever mission your going to do maybe ALOT harder just because your grouped. if you wouldnt grouped it would most likely be esayer

Bottom line is... i think the time for Gearing up, grouping up for everything , and leveling up maybe be coming to an end or be spliting apart from those's kind of games.

[Zepath]

Bottom line is... i think the time for Gearing up, grouping up for everything , and leveling up maybe be coming to an end or be spliting apart from those's kind of games.

I think more of a division/split ... the industry just needs time to come with with a description for these games that are basically MMOSC (massively multiplayer online solo content).

You will wont see large group oriented MMORPGs go away for a long time .... that audience is what is making Blizzard hundreds of millions of dollars a year ... where STO will likely make 20M-30M a year after the dust settles.

[Emn1ty]

Leveling is slowly grinding down IMO as well, but gearing up and group-based MMO's are definitely not. Leveling IMO is something MMO's need to either break away from or develope more. EVE is a good example of a proper "level" system that isn't a level system but a person learning how to do new things and refining that ability. Grinding is one of my biggest pet peeves in an MMO and EVE has made that a non-issue. Hopefully STO will be similar with its ranks, where ranks allow you access to new skills rather than "improve" your stats. From what I have seen so far, this is the case.

[Mozcol]

Leveling is slowly grinding down IMO as well, but gearing up and group-based MMO's are definitely not. Leveling IMO is something MMO's need to either break away from or develope more. EVE is a good example of a proper "level" system that isn't a level system but a person learning how to do new things and refining that ability. Grinding is one of my biggest pet peeves in an MMO and EVE has made that a non-issue. Hopefully STO will be similar with its ranks, where ranks allow you access to new skills rather than "improve" your stats. From what I have seen so far, this is the case.

Everyones idea of proper leveling system differs and I disagree with Eve's. While it does have its advantages regarding the skill based system waiting 2 months to go up one skill level is ridiculous. I prefer a skill based system but Eve's wait times for one level can get too severe for minor advantages you can attain. Having said that I still play Eve, go figure, I'm a glutton for punishment:D

[Emn1ty]

I completely agree. I like the system, but I do think it is WAY too time intensive. More or less, I feel skills should level through ACTUAL experience using them. So if you grab skills for, say, engineering, these skills are equipable to your engineering officer. Whichever of say... 4 (depending on the number of skills, however many may be equipped can change) skills is equipped will level as that officer performs tasks within the ship, and even more so during intense action (combat, quests that require their expertise, etc). Once a certain skill is fully mastered, you unlock new skills to continue learning. These skills stick with this officer and therefore push of the value of them as you hold onto them for longer, making transfers of crew members only happen under certain circumstances or opportunities.

[Zepath]

Just for the record, what you guys are talking about, in industry terms, is a "skill based system" vs "experience based system" ... and the two models have been around since the mid-80s.

Both have their advantages and disadvantages. I don't have a preference.

One simply requires you gain experience in points and you get a skill/ability, the other gives you a skill/ability and requires you gain experience using it before they give you the next level of the skill.

Now Eve, Eve is pretty much in a class by itself. But it is most definitely a skill based system.

[Nasedo]

I think more of a division/split ... the industry just needs time to come with with a description for these games that are basically MMOSC (massively multiplayer online solo content).

You will wont see large group oriented MMORPGs go away for a long time .... that audience is what is making Blizzard hundreds of millions of dollars a year ... where STO will likely make 20M-30M a year after the dust settles.

/agree, im not saying grouping is bad but most content in games need a group. and it takes to much timeing to put together

i think the Very Best time for being solo was in SWG pre-cu. if you were a Jedi Knight you could take on 10 plus people in the same time,

i hope Days like them would come back very very soon

Sadly Star Wars TOR is trying to clone WOW and sadly i dont think i could buy it, and if i do its just to try out the Star Wars Content

Nasedo

[Suraknar]

I think some of you would appreciate this article:

http://www.massively.com/2009/07/16/redefining-mmos-massively-singleplayer/

---

As for STO, it is difficult to form a conclusion for me at this time. Lets not forget that Star Trek is much about the Adventures of a Ship and Its Crew.

In that sense, and since, the system in this game is about 1 player controlling 1 ship, players will find themselves often "alone" in space, same as any Captain of Star Trek was alone in every episode with ship and crew.

lets take any of the series, what is the frequency in TOS that the Enterprise actually does something with another Star Fleet Ship?

How about next generation? Voyager (99.9%), Enterprise?

The same frequency should be expected in this game too.

in fact from watching the Videos I am starting to understand that there is actually a big solo aspect in this implementation.

We are not getting missions we are completing Episodes, episodes of what thought?

Episodes of your own Solo Adventures, each player of STO will be able to have their own "Series" so to speak, that may ocasionally involve meeting up with other Captains.just like the sporadic episodes when we see the Enterprise side by side with another star fleet Ship or part of a larger fleet (refering to TNG now).

And all that maybe peachy and all ...but...in here lies the paradox now.


Should an MMORPG be about the solo experience? Can an MMORPG be about the solo experience?

Can it be called an MMORPG anymore? or should it be called MMOSRPG (S for Solo)?

Because if we are to play solo, then why is this game an MMO in the first place? Why not just bundle it in a box that we can all buy and play solo on our computers with the AI without having to pay a subscription.

Or will STO more gradually towards grouped game play in more advanced stages? I think it should, otherwise, if it remains solo from start to finish, there is no justification for it to be an MMO...and it can simply be a Sci-Fi RPG.

I personally think the most interesting approach for the advanced game of such a game should be some implementation of PvPvE.

Just my perspective on this issue.

[Kriss]

Raven..... i feel the same way, there are few things i wish cryptic would change and not do, i played wow for a very long time, i posted my concerns for years on the wow forums and not one of them came true or never had a dev give it another look

bottom line is we cant change Cryptic's mind about how They want to make STO no point in trying believe i tryed to change Blizzards mind for years and they wont listen,,,

Dont get me wrong Cryptic's one of the best companys out there but they wont change there minds.what is done is done

'GONG; Wrong answer!

The squeaky wheel gets the grease. If enough people make a big enough event out of it things can change. Thinking you can't change anything is the wrong approach. Get people to speak up. Again and again and again.

And when there are dev chats or take questions bring it up again and again. Sooner or later they will realize it is NOT going to be beneficial for their game and their bottom line.

And if they don;t see the light, well.....they will fall to the way-side as every other ST game has to this date. Into the trash heap of the city dump.

One voice can be drowned out. A thousand voices will bring one to their knees.

[Mozcol]

/agree, im not saying grouping is bad but most content in games need a group. and it takes to much timeing to put together

i think the Very Best time for being solo was in SWG pre-cu. if you were a Jedi Knight you could take on 10 plus people in the same time,

i hope Days like them would come back very very soon

Sadly Star Wars TOR is trying to clone WOW and sadly i dont think i could buy it, and if i do its just to try out the Star Wars Content

Nasedo

I agree and disagree with this Nasedo. It absoloutley can take too much time to get a group together get orientated and into the content your going for, I agree, but only if you don't have the right people playing with you. In every MMO I've played and am playing at this time i can log in and within 5mins I have a guild group and into the content in 10mins. it comes down to your friends and social aspect in MMO's to hit that group content fast. Pre-CUSWG was a great game but had a gross lack of content, you didn't need to find groups whether or not it was easily soloable......it was still boring in the end.

[KirksOtherSon]

Can it be called an MMORPG anymore? or should it be called MMOSRPG (S for Solo)?

Some interesting thoughts, Suraknar, and I apologize for cutting your post down to one line -- but this is the thought I can respond to directly.

As has been said earlier here, the term "Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game" only referes to the fact of an online role-playing game in which massive numbers of people play simultaneously.

Multiplayer does not speak to whether those who play the game are playing with one another, or merely alongside one another, only that they tend to play inside the game simultaneously.

Those who try to use the word "multiplayer" to legitimize their "forced grouping" agenda are merely misunderstanding the term (some of them purposely so) in the hopes of battering those who disagree with them into silence.

So, the MMORPG designation works perfectly well as an accurate descriptor, whether individual players play solo or in groups. The problem, as usual, lies only with certain individuals who can't stand the idea that not everyone sees things exactly the way they do.

Cheers,

KOS

[jblancato]

The problem lies in extremes. If you base your entire game around forced grouping, very few people will play it given an alternative. The same goes for exclusively solo content. With rare exception, there are times when people want to interact with others and times when people just want to be alone. Throwing your lot exclusively in one area is when bad things happen.

I think the market has proven that forcing players to group the majority of the time is something most players don't want. It's simply not fun to wait on the rest of the world for you to do stuff. If you're a longterm veteran of the MMOG genre, you probably remember sitting in a zone somewhere for a couple hours because your group was short a healer. I remember bribing healers to leave groups just so they'd join mine and I could actually get to whatever it was I wanted to do that night. Granted, there's ways around that particular issue - notably abandoning the healer/tank/DPS triumvirate - but many forced-grouping games rely on the Diku/D&D paradigm.

The other option is solo-heavy stuff, which isn't much fun either, because you wind up playing the game in a vacuum. I can't think of a AAA MMOG out there that exclusively offers solo content, because it's a multiplayer game for a reason.

Really, the answer is somewhere in the middle. Restricting people from content just because they want to be left alone or can't find a group is silly; it's not fun and is arbitrarily exclusionary. And not rewarding people for being able to work together and create a more efficient gestalt is also silly. A group shouldn't be the only way to do something, but it should probably be better than going alone.

In STO, there's solo content and group content. There's stuff only large groups can access, but it's also stuff you don't need to have fun.

[slingbladez]

Nice points Rekhan. Thank you for taking the time to respond.

[Swea]

*golfclap* thanks for the post Rekhan.

[blujester]

Leveling is slowly grinding down IMO as well, but gearing up and group-based MMO's are definitely not. Leveling IMO is something MMO's need to either break away from or develope more. EVE is a good example of a proper "level" system that isn't a level system but a person learning how to do new things and refining that ability. Grinding is one of my biggest pet peeves in an MMO and EVE has made that a non-issue. Hopefully STO will be similar with its ranks, where ranks allow you access to new skills rather than "improve" your stats. From what I have seen so far, this is the case.

Not to bag on EVE as I really do like the game. But to say EVE made grinding a non issue is very misleading. I know you could level up a Carrier Pilot in about a year without ever playing him but to buy the carrier took LOTS of ISK. And the quickest way to make money in the beginning was to spend hours watching your ship beat up on rocks (mining). Which, I hate to say, is the absolutely most boring grind of any game ever!. Even their missions, of which I did a ton, are very repetitive and same same over and over. I know the major corps did alot of nice things for thier noobs and cut the money grind for those lucky few. A new corp like mine that came from Freelancer to build up was so disadvantaged to begin with as to be untenable. Grinding is ALL EVE is if you don't have a benifactor replacing your ships or buying your mods. At least in the early game on your own. And then you grind to fuel your station and replace your ships when you get raided. Grind grind grind. If I log into STO on day one and find out I have to shoot at rocks for six months to get into a decent ship I'm gone.


Bj

[Amblin]

Advantages:

No spawn camping
No huge crowds
No "immersion breaker" mission interference
Everyone on one "server" and able to play together.


Disadvantages:

Lots of instance hopping.
Lack of "huge universe with lots of people" feel.
Many loading screens


Anymore?

NO spawn camping rofl are you playing CO? There's nothing but spawn camping for the Quallar invaders. When the event works...
No huge crowds? No point of it being an mmo then.
No immersion breaker interference? mmm well if devs will combine pve and pvp badly then what do you expect? Instances work but if we all get to play the exact same instance what makes the journey personal?
Everyone on one server. Great. However, how do I find that guy that I played with but didn't make a friend? What was his name? mmmmm

I agree somewhat but there aren't any real advantages in instances vs servers.

The best solution is a single server but some intelligent player handling. We can't have 1000+ players in the same area, fine. Then move them. Make them go sonewhere else, Lure them and they will come.

In STO divide up players when you hit a limit in a section of space. Call it fleet manouvers, Whatever it takes interact witht he players make it seemless and they won't notice or care as it is part of the game. Allow them freedom of movement but ensure that there are multiple hubs for players to congregate.

Infact remove the need to have the Jita 2.0. It's all about planning but MMO's are rarely well planned when it comes to how poeple interact.

If we have the equivalent of guilds, interact with the guilds at guild level. Issue the guild with new orders move them out. Doing so keeps players moving, hopefully promotes grouping within guilds or just grouping in general and pushes players to see more than just a small area of the universe/world.

This is not impossible, just improbable given the reluctanc eot innovate in the mmo genre. Unless Wow did it, of course ;p

[Rgoodfel]

I think the market has proven that forcing players to group the majority of the time is something most players don't want. It's simply not fun to wait on the rest of the world for you to do stuff. If you're a longterm veteran of the MMOG genre, you probably remember sitting in a zone somewhere for a couple hours because your group was short a healer. I remember bribing healers to leave groups just so they'd join mine and I could actually get to whatever it was I wanted to do that night. Granted, there's ways around that particular issue - notably abandoning the healer/tank/DPS triumvirate - but many forced-grouping games rely on the Diku/D&D paradigm.


One reason why I like playing a healer. Everyone is happy to see a healer. You are everyones best friend. The only drawback is when people blame you when they die. Fortunatly they are few and far between.

[Rgoodfel]

NO spawn camping rofl are you playing CO? There's nothing but spawn camping for the Quallar invaders. When the event works...
No huge crowds? No point of it being an mmo then.
No immersion breaker interference? mmm well if devs will combine pve and pvp badly then what do you expect? Instances work but if we all get to play the exact same instance what makes the journey personal?
Everyone on one server. Great. However, how do I find that guy that I played with but didn't make a friend? What was his name? mmmmm

I agree somewhat but there aren't any real advantages in instances vs servers.

The best solution is a single server but some intelligent player handling. We can't have 1000+ players in the same area, fine. Then move them. Make them go sonewhere else, Lure them and they will come.

In STO divide up players when you hit a limit in a section of space. Call it fleet manouvers, Whatever it takes interact witht he players make it seemless and they won't notice or care as it is part of the game. Allow them freedom of movement but ensure that there are multiple hubs for players to congregate.

Infact remove the need to have the Jita 2.0. It's all about planning but MMO's are rarely well planned when it comes to how poeple interact.

If we have the equivalent of guilds, interact with the guilds at guild level. Issue the guild with new orders move them out. Doing so keeps players moving, hopefully promotes grouping within guilds or just grouping in general and pushes players to see more than just a small area of the universe/world.

This is not impossible, just improbable given the reluctanc eot innovate in the mmo genre. Unless Wow did it, of course ;p

True there is a lot of camping for the Qualar, but usally I can find a instance where somone isn't camping unless I have been really lucky. In Eve when they had static complexes there was camping. Some you can't even get near, usally the ones in low or 0.0 it is not fun when a group "owns" content like that.

[Emn1ty]

Not to bag on EVE as I really do like the game. But to say EVE made grinding a non issue is very misleading. I know you could level up a Carrier Pilot in about a year without ever playing him but to buy the carrier took LOTS of ISK. And the quickest way to make money in the beginning was to spend hours watching your ship beat up on rocks (mining). Which, I hate to say, is the absolutely most boring grind of any game ever!. Even their missions, of which I did a ton, are very repetitive and same same over and over. I know the major corps did alot of nice things for thier noobs and cut the money grind for those lucky few. A new corp like mine that came from Freelancer to build up was so disadvantaged to begin with as to be untenable. Grinding is ALL EVE is if you don't have a benifactor replacing your ships or buying your mods. At least in the early game on your own. And then you grind to fuel your station and replace your ships when you get raided. Grind grind grind. If I log into STO on day one and find out I have to shoot at rocks for six months to get into a decent ship I'm gone.


Bj

Shooting at rocks is 1 way to make money. I make a lot more money by just killing rats in EVE out in null sec. The bounties out there are as high as 1.1m ISK per BS. Sure, you have a month or so before you have the skills to actually take those kinds of rats down, but after that its smooth sailing. I made 100m ISK in two days from that, salvage and loot.

[VengefulTick]

Advantages:

No spawn camping
No huge crowds
No "immersion breaker" mission interference
Everyone on one "server" and able to play together.


Disadvantages:

Lots of instance hopping.
Lack of "huge universe with lots of people" feel.
Many loading screens


Anymore?

In CO I was still waiting for spawns. Just an observation.

[Antagonist]

One reason why I like playing a healer. Everyone is happy to see a healer. You are everyones best friend. The only drawback is when people blame you when they die. Fortunatly they are few and far between.

Not sure what kind of healer you were playing...I got blamed for everything that went wrong, no matter what! of course, I also got a ton of compliments, as WoWs alliance faction did not have many...skilled...healers...certainly not many pure holy spec priests:D still loved it though

[blujester]

True there is a lot of camping for the Qualar, but usally I can find a instance where somone isn't camping unless I have been really lucky. In Eve when they had static complexes there was camping. Some you can't even get near, usally the ones in low or 0.0 it is not fun when a group "owns" content like that.

And what on earth in a startrek game would be a campable spawn? I seriously doubt you will have boss level npc's that spawn anywhere out side of instanced missions in a game like this. Why would they? This isn't about street sweeping or clearing zones so much as about exploring. Now occasional invasions in a zone sure but not always in the same zone so camping would be pointless for that. Not saying they won't have them but thats one thing they could eliminate easily without breaking my heart one bit.


Bj

[eNDIE]

Not sure what kind of healer you were playing...I got blamed for everything that went wrong, no matter what! of course, I also got a ton of compliments, as WoWs alliance faction did not have many...skilled...healers...certainly not many pure holy spec priests:D still loved it though

hehe went people complained to much i used the magic line " i can allways leave":D one concern i have is with all the instansing will it hurt the comunity i mean if i will be able to say hello to the same people twice or if it will just be new people all the time:confused:

[BlehAngel]

I guess there aiming also for a wider public not only for mmo players. There will be a lot of ST fans who might never touch a mmo before. They might feel better in a more single player environment/instance base game.

[loyaltrekie]

They might feel better in a more single player environment/instance base game.

Then they would probably more enjoy the hundreds of single player titles that are out and about.

[leonide]

for STO to have one server with a giant sandbox feel, and one universe, it will require the servers on the level of Eve online, which are one of the biggest and strongest servers in the world BTW. the galaxy in Eve is HUUUUUUUGE. the instance setup of CO didn't bother me. i liked it. the one server sandbox model requires huge server muscle. i doubt Cryptic will be doing that.

[loyaltrekie]

for STO to have one server with a giant sandbox feel, and one universe, it will require the servers on the level of Eve online, which are one of the biggest and strongest servers in the world BTW. the galaxy in Eve is HUUUUUUUGE. the instance setup of CO didn't bother me. i liked it. the one server sandbox model requires huge server muscle. i doubt Cryptic will be doing that.

Honestly(I'm not trying to flame you), but if you don't know the slightest thing about server hardware and infrastructure don't post regarding it. You can have your opinions all day long about how the "game world" should be set up; but don't try talking about the hardware if you don't know it, it causes more issues then anything else.

On a side note; Eve actually was running on very old tech not too long ago(they recently did a massive upgrade).

[Jomir]

Im also slightly concerned about STO and playing together.
Beeing able to enjoy the game pretty much when youre alone is totally ok with me.
But for me playing together with others is the main part of an MMO. Please don't dump that! Its too important.

The more people are able to play alone the content, the more will do so and the harder it will be to find other players to group with if you want or need to for another quest.

[Swea]

The problem lies in extremes. If you base your entire game around forced grouping, very few people will play it given an alternative. The same goes for exclusively solo content. With rare exception, there are times when people want to interact with others and times when people just want to be alone. Throwing your lot exclusively in one area is when bad things happen.

I think the market has proven that forcing players to group the majority of the time is something most players don't want. It's simply not fun to wait on the rest of the world for you to do stuff. If you're a longterm veteran of the MMOG genre, you probably remember sitting in a zone somewhere for a couple hours because your group was short a healer. I remember bribing healers to leave groups just so they'd join mine and I could actually get to whatever it was I wanted to do that night. Granted, there's ways around that particular issue - notably abandoning the healer/tank/DPS triumvirate - but many forced-grouping games rely on the Diku/D&D paradigm.

The other option is solo-heavy stuff, which isn't much fun either, because you wind up playing the game in a vacuum. I can't think of a AAA MMOG out there that exclusively offers solo content, because it's a multiplayer game for a reason.

Really, the answer is somewhere in the middle. Restricting people from content just because they want to be left alone or can't find a group is silly; it's not fun and is arbitrarily exclusionary. And not rewarding people for being able to work together and create a more efficient gestalt is also silly. A group shouldn't be the only way to do something, but it should probably be better than going alone.

In STO, there's solo content and group content. There's stuff only large groups can access, but it's also stuff you don't need to have fun.

quoting cause some ppl seem to have not read it

[Suraknar]

Some interesting thoughts, Suraknar, and I apologize for cutting your post down to one line -- but this is the thought I can respond to directly.

As has been said earlier here, the term "Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game" only referes to the fact of an online role-playing game in which massive numbers of people play simultaneously.

Multiplayer does not speak to whether those who play the game are playing with one another, or merely alongside one another, only that they tend to play inside the game simultaneously.

Those who try to use the word "multiplayer" to legitimize their "forced grouping" agenda are merely misunderstanding the term (some of them purposely so) in the hopes of battering those who disagree with them into silence.

So, the MMORPG designation works perfectly well as an accurate descriptor, whether individual players play solo or in groups. The problem, as usual, lies only with certain individuals who can't stand the idea that not everyone sees things exactly the way they do.

Cheers,

KOS

Hail, and do not worry about apologies on how you quoted me. The Important thing is to understand to whom the reply is going. :)

I do not have a "group" agenda per se, i do not have a Solo Agenda either. I actually like both styles depends on the mood.

Sometime I really am in the mood of gathering a host of people and go out there adventure, and sometimes I really want to be left alone and explore a shadowy part of the world alone or just chill hunting deer.

that being said, I disagree with your point on the term "multiplayer".

Because the Term predates Massivelly Multiplayer and Online.

I started playing multilayer games in the earlier period of computers with 14k modems and LAN (IPX/SPX)...

And playing a game in Multiplayer mode, means to play the game at the same time "with" another player or players in many different modes, such as competitive, cooperative, against each other or together against the AI.

Yet it never meant playing the game at the same time separately. So, I am sorry but Multilayer does imply Interaction "together" or "with" other players.

That being said, MMORPG's...have a different nature because the world in which player character's exist is persistent, which bring us to the next quote.

The problem lies in extremes. If you base your entire game around forced grouping, very few people will play it given an alternative. The same goes for exclusively solo content. With rare exception, there are times when people want to interact with others and times when people just want to be alone. Throwing your lot exclusively in one area is when bad things happen.

I agree completelly here as well, and it is nice to hear too :)

I think the market has proven that forcing players to group the majority of the time is something most players don't want. It's simply not fun to wait on the rest of the world for you to do stuff. If you're a longterm veteran of the MMOG genre, you probably remember sitting in a zone somewhere for a couple hours because your group was short a healer. I remember bribing healers to leave groups just so they'd join mine and I could actually get to whatever it was I wanted to do that night. Granted, there's ways around that particular issue - notably abandoning the healer/tank/DPS triumvirate - but many forced-grouping games rely on the Diku/D&D paradigm.

It is interesting the way you said this, "the market has proven it". I accept it thought, the market has proven that larger subscription numbers are achieved when grouping is not forced.

Actually I am of the opinion that nothing should be forced really. And the situation that you describe with healers, well, I remember it happening but not in the first MMORPG I played.

In UO we did not have the problem of the healers, because it was a Skill based Character Progression system and not a Class/Level based one...and there were several skills that could be very effective for healing so almost everyone had healing capabilities. therefore, I am assuming you are talking about a game that was made after UO such as EQ...and yes I would agree, EQ was flawed.

The other option is solo-heavy stuff, which isn't much fun either, because you wind up playing the game in a vacuum. I can't think of a AAA MMOG out there that exclusively offers solo content, because it's a multiplayer game for a reason.

I agree here as well.

Really, the answer is somewhere in the middle. Restricting people from content just because they want to be left alone or can't find a group is silly; it's not fun and is arbitrarily exclusionary. And not rewarding people for being able to work together and create a more efficient gestalt is also silly. A group shouldn't be the only way to do something, but it should probably be better than going alone.

In STO, there's solo content and group content. There's stuff only large groups can access, but it's also stuff you don't need to have fun.

I am of the same opinion as you that the answer lies in the middle, and that a good game would provide the possibility to its players to play according to their own preference at any given moment, grouped or solo. Not unlike the option we have in RL.

This is where game meets reality, our RL world is persistent, and an MMORPG Virtual World is also persistent, the same dynamics apply when it comes to people, and people like variety and options so they can monotonously do the same thing over and over for months and at the same time know that they can switch to something else at will. :rolleyes: (human nature, go figure!).

The point I am trying to make is that in my opinion and view an MMORPG cannot be about each player playing the game separately and in one's own self sustaining bubble within the same virtual environment.

And this is different than the opportunity or possibility to play Solo. because even solo players are part of the greater "society" that is the other players, just like in the RL there is loners and there is Team oriented people, but we all evolve together and are affected by the actions of others as we affect others by our own actions.

And I guess this is what many miss in MMORPG's which was present in the early ones. the fact that player actions had some type of effect on the other players living in the same virtual world (and I am not referring to negative effects necessarily).

There are some MMORPG's out there today that have evolved a game play that consists of players playing separately and the game doe snot require any type of social interaction whatsoever for the player to progress in it.

I am sorry but why play an MMORPG if you are not going or are required (at least invited) to interact with other players at all and all the interaction is between the player and the AI?

Is my position more clear?

[bootrix2]

I've been playing MMOs since 1996. Meridian 59.

I'm currently playing CO.

I actually find CO instances too crowded as it is. The areas that are instanced are small and sport 100 players.

Chances are you'll run into a person doing the same quests as you within 30 seconds and this was during Open Beta.

It's even worse now.

The majority of people on these forums have a Star Trek background. So when creating characters, ships, details it will be aesthetically pleasing. The same goes for CO but with a massive server comes massive amounts of idiots (rude, selfish, non-communicative, color blind goof balls).

From a technical point of view however I wish they would have an RP toggle. So that it keeps you to RP instances only. Something CO lacks.

Technically as well, with fixed servers comes increased downtime, population balancing issues (WAR) and performance variations. When it's instanced it's more or less running off a load balancing system in the background. x Server hosting X instances dies, no problem people just move over.

It's also less support for Cryptic to maintain through staff.

I'm sure they'll do a good job.

[lumpking69]

It's a way for all your friends to not worry about what server they happened to roll on.

Typical multiple server scenario:

Friend: "Omg, you play STO! That's awesome! What server you on?"

You: "I'm on the Dyson server... How about you?"

Friend: "Oh man, c'mon leave that dump and join my server, there's so many awesome people here"

You: "But I already have a Tier 4 ship... it'll take me forev...."

Friend: "Never mind that, it won't take too long getting all that stuff back! You should just..."

You: "Well how about you come to my server instead?" -- Endless bickering continues ~


With this system, yes there are drawbacks ~ It feels less like a massive game as a main one... But if 'any' of your friends from around the world are online and you want to join some big fleet battle ~ There's no trouble at all =)


-Manta-

Server Transfers are a wonderful thing.

[ndat]

My concern was always more that you would see too many people exploring, so I was happy to see this. I can understand peoples concern, but I've played games where it's been lightly implemented and I never even thought about it until now remembering back. It's really a non-issue in my opinion.