Who here is gonna be playing some CO?

[Krakkken]

Your marketing team just showed their true colors. The last thing I want to hear is that I have to be blackmailed into another game to help test STO. If heroes isnt good enough to get its own subs then dont force me to play it just to get a sneak preview of the game I want to play. This shows nothing but realy bad faith in both products and the marketing teams ability to come up with creative ways to get people to play.

Strike one....Microtransactions

Strike two...Blackmailing Beta testers by forcing them to play another game for months

Strike three..and I am out of here...forever.

[PattonJ007]

CYA, don't let the door hit ya on the way out...

[overlordthor]

Blackmailing them, lol, if you dont want to play CO just wait for the complete game, like me, geeze, its not like they are forcing you to buy co, just wait it out, u can wait 6 months or so, right?

[walltar]

lol so you are forced to buy CO ? Somebody holds weapon next to your head or your family was kidnaped ? You are poor poor guy. What about shut up or use on of many existing threads ? :mad:

[Angelphoenix12]

Your marketing team just showed their true colors. The last thing I want to hear is that I have to be blackmailed into another game to help test STO. If heroes isnt good enough to get its own subs then dont force me to play it just to get a sneak preview of the game I want to play. This shows nothing but realy bad faith in both products and the marketing teams ability to come up with creative ways to get people to play.

Strike one....Microtransactions

Strike two...Blackmailing Beta testers by forcing them to play another game for months

Strike three..and I am out of here...forever.

im sorry but when did cryptic say they are forcing you to buy co to play sto? you do know that sonner or later they will have aps for beta slots. some people wanted a guaranteed closed beta slot. i cant blame because i want 1 too. but byebye 4ever.
i plan to beta this game and play co till sto comes out.

[Esgar]

The CO deals aren't the ONLY way in, they're just a guarentee. It's a way for them to reward players who want to support both their games, or just even an extra little "goodie" for the CO folk who want a bit of a discount on their monthly fees and to give them an inside look at STO and possibly draw them in.

[dryzabone]

Who blackmailed you? lol
There are other ways to get into beta, all Cryptic did was offer a bit of cake to their loyal customers who take out a pre -launch sub.

[Krakkken]

im sorry but when did cryptic say they are forcing you to buy co to play sto? you do know that sonner or later they will have aps for beta slots. some people wanted a guaranteed closed beta slot. i cant blame because i want 1 too. but byebye 4ever.
i plan to beta this game and play co till sto comes out.

This is in such poor taste to even elude that you have to spend money to be guarenteed a spot in the beta. Beta players are there to better the game, they are doing game developers a favor by helping to fix their game. To say that you need to pay for another game just tells me that they are not happy with the game they made. The big problem is that you will judge that game the creators made and will predjudice the game you are beta testing. I tried the 14 day free trial of CoH. I couldnt even log on past the character creater screen. After 6 tries I just took it off my machine. That made me think that they will probably have the same problems with STO. This all around is a poor idea to entice people to play another game. My trust in this team dropped dramaticly when I saw this announced.

[WarpVis]

Actually, I do believe the plan that Cryptic has laid out is a good plan. By offering the Beta Key to those that are committing in a reasonably significant way to another MMORPG then Cryptic is more likely to get better more useful feedback. They will be getting feedback from the types of people that are actually willing to commit to a subscription fee.

That is not to say that those who do not want to pay do not provide valid feedback and point out actual flaws, but issues and priorities may be significantly different between a 20-40 year old paying subscriber and a 12-25 year old looking for some free game time.

It also makes since from a marketing standpoint. It is called branding. The idea is that you do not just create fans for one game or one IP, but rather fans and loyal customers to the company as a whole. “If you like this product maybe you should take a look at some of our other fine products” is an age old and proven method of building a strong customer base.

Beyond all that, I seriously doubt that a majority of those that are offended by this offer were likely to ever be consistent money paying subscribers.

[TruthSeer]

The beta slots are perks for subscribing to CO. They're not supposed to be the sole reason for buying it.

[R4mp4ge]

CYA, don't let the door hit ya on the way out...

you do realize that if cryptic took that attitude they'd go out of business, or atari would just axe them. This forum is here for us to express our opinions of the plans for STO and believe it or not cryptic would like to know exactly what people will and will not put up with, because without that data, they'd be flying blind.

Doomsaying isn't exactly the most productive attitude, but if Cryptic's marketing team screws up it behooves us to let cryptic's management know so that they can take appropriate action, we want a good game experience, they want us to pay for it. The op is letting them know that they've done thing's that lower the value he places on the experience, whether or not Cryptic thinks that is relevant is up to them, but if you care about the game's success you shouldn't go around trying to skew the results.

[stat]

The beta slots are perks for subscribing to CO. They're not supposed to be the sole reason for buying it.

Exactly. I have no idea why people are getting ticked off at "buying a beta slot", because youre not.

[Chillee]

Your marketing team just showed their true colors. The last thing I want to hear is that I have to be blackmailed into another game to help test STO. If heroes isnt good enough to get its own subs then dont force me to play it just to get a sneak preview of the game I want to play. This shows nothing but realy bad faith in both products and the marketing teams ability to come up with creative ways to get people to play.

Strike one....Microtransactions

Strike two...Blackmailing Beta testers by forcing them to play another game for months

Strike three..and I am out of here...forever.

We don't need your kind. We certainly don't want it either.

[JMD10222]

Who is to say they will not offer something very similar for STO 6 month and Lifetime subs?? But anyway later :rolleyes:

[WarpVis]

This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines (http://forums.startrekonline.com/announcement.php?f=24&a=2). Thank you, Dionaea

[R4mp4ge]

This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines (http://forums.startrekonline.com/announcement.php?f=24&a=2). Thank you, Dionaea

The point stands, if you poo poo peoples reaction to this little feux pas then you're skewing data cryptic should be looking for, express your own opinion sure, but if the OP is representative of a portion of the market demographic then you shouldn't encourage the devs to completely ignore him, they need every scrap of information they can get on how they're doing PR wise, and personally I've expressed my distaste on how they've handled this issue multiple times.

It doesn't matter if an opinion is childish, all that matters is how many people hold it, Cryptic's management NEEDS TO KNOW that the marketing on CO managed to offend people who's primary interest is STO, if we don't let them know loudly that that was a mistake they'll think it's ok to make STO perks dependent on a CO subscription and Vice Versa, which NONE OF US WANTS.

[Tibilicus127]

Your marketing team just showed their true colors. The last thing I want to hear is that I have to be blackmailed into another game to help test STO. If heroes isnt good enough to get its own subs then dont force me to play it just to get a sneak preview of the game I want to play. This shows nothing but realy bad faith in both products and the marketing teams ability to come up with creative ways to get people to play.

Strike one....Microtransactions

Strike two...Blackmailing Beta testers by forcing them to play another game for months

Strike three..and I am out of here...forever.

Cryptic isn't FORCING you to do any thing. The offer is aimed mainly at CO players, they're offering it to STO players as well however. There will be other opportunities to BETA test and if you feel like you needed to pay $60 in the first place to BETA test a game then quite frankly you need to get a life. The offer is meant for CO subscription to be the main product and the BETA key to be a bnous.

In fact I'm going to say this one last time, I personally think if any one feels the need to pay $60 for a BETA key it is INCREDIBLY sad. I've been in numerous BETAS, they're nothing special. For those that did go for the deal I hope you enjoy CO, it's shaping up to be a great game, and I hope you enjoy your bonus BETA key and mirror universe outfit to.

End rant.

[SelorKiith]

if I don't let them know loudly that that was a mistake they'll think it's ok to make STO perks dependent on a CO subscription and Vice Versa, which I DON'T WANT.

I fixed it for you ;)

People that are upset by this obviously lack a great amount of Understanding...
This thing, this offer is made for people that are interested in both STO and CO and eventually want to play both and for those people that now know that they want to play CO for a long time and they are invited to test the Other Game... so there is nothing wrong... unless you are one of those that actually hold a MMO up like a Religion: One at a time and never switch...

[Varrangian]

This is in such poor taste to even elude that you have to spend money to be guarenteed a spot in the beta. Beta players are there to better the game, they are doing game developers a favor by helping to fix their game. To say that you need to pay for another game just tells me that they are not happy with the game they made. The big problem is that you will judge that game the creators made and will predjudice the game you are beta testing. I tried the 14 day free trial of CoH. I couldnt even log on past the character creater screen. After 6 tries I just took it off my machine. That made me think that they will probably have the same problems with STO. This all around is a poor idea to entice people to play another game. My trust in this team dropped dramaticly when I saw this announced.

It happens all the time. Nearly every game (MMO's) run promotions that give out beta access as a perk for pre-ordering, or being a subscriber to sites like Fileplanet or Gamespot. This is not new or in poor taste.

As for CoH and the 14 day trial. Since it has always been NCSoft running the servers for that game (note NCSoft owns the game outright now) I doubt your issues are an accurate reflection on how STO is going to be.

Cryptic owns CO, so how exactly is it bad or wrong for them to entice people to play another game that they own.

[curtst]

1. No one is forcing you to do it
2. It is just a perk
3. You can still beta it, you just don't have guaranteed closed beta access. Worse comes to worse you just have to wait for open beta. Oh, but guess what you will still have to pay for that because you will have to be a subscriber to Fileplanet!

[R4mp4ge]

I fixed it for you ;)

People that are upset by this obviously lack a great amount of Understanding...
This thing, this offer is made for people that are interested in both STO and CO and eventually want to play both and for those people that now know that they want to play CO for a long time and they are invited to test the Other Game... so there is nothing wrong... unless you are one of those that actually hold a MMO up like a Religion: One at a time and never switch...

did you read what I said? it doesn't matter if they lack understanding, it's on cryptic to keep US in the loop and satisfied, it's not your job or mine to keep our fellow consumers in line. The fact is that a lot of people got angry, and it's probably more people than are posting on the forums, because the majority don't bother with them.

Saying that those people just don't understand what cryptic is up to doesn't help Cryptic keep them interested as customers or potential customers, it does the exact opposite, because it masks potential problems in their market strategy under a layer of sycophancy.

If you actually want STO to be a success let people speak their minds, that's why cryptic put this forum up, they want actual feedback so they can tailor their approach, the more you take away from that the harder it will be for them to come up with the best approach.



This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines (http://forums.startrekonline.com/announcement.php?f=24&a=2). Thank you, Dionaea

[Snakebloke]

They aren't forcing anyone to buy CO but to be honest it's still a fairly cheap tactic.

Giving people places in the Beta for their knowlege of game design/Star Trek is a far better idea.

It's a cash in for sure which is kinda low but, like everyone else said noone is forcing anyone to do anything so get over it :)

[SelorKiith]

I don't want to see this game beeing a **** because to many people are just to dumb to comprehend anything...
And I don't really want them to be open to be met ingame...

If they are to dumb to get even the easiest logics right, screw them! We cannot step back because some people have to be nursed!

I am willingly force at least a certain amount Intelligence to be needed for all this... if they fall under this line... neither My nor Cryptics fault...
That is the biggest failure of todays WHOLE society... to many people with to less abiliy to comprehend things and to many people that are defending this degradation and I don't want to see STO being a victim of this... I don't want these Forums to become a Kindergarten where everyone has to be taken by his hands and be talked to like 3 years old child just because they are unable to think properly...

So: It is fully right for all this, the Game and the Forum even this ad, to require a certain amount of Understanding... if you lack it, your out!

[curtst]

I am sure if Atari had a problem with it they wouldn't have let it happened. I am also sure this isn't the first time it has happened with any company. I still would have preferred to have seen the perks more for CO than STO. Start a STO preorder and offer the closed beta. I would find a way to scrounge up $200 for a lifetime sub for STO, then pray to a god a don't believe in, the game survives the first year lol.

Was this the smartest idea they had? No. Is it making them a lot of money, no doubt. Is it really a big deal? IMO, no.

[mwood1387]

If you actually want STO to be a success let people speak their minds, that's why cryptic put this forum up, they want actual feedback so they can tailor their approach, the more you take away from that the harder it will be for them to come up with the best approach.

This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines (http://forums.startrekonline.com/announcement.php?f=24&a=2). Thank you, Dionaea

Wasn't listening to the community what turned SWG and WoW in to a crappola? Also I highlighted a sentence which made me laugh pretty hard.

[WarpVis]

If you actually want STO to be a success let people speak their minds, that's why cryptic put this forum up, they want actual feedback so they can tailor their approach, the more you take away from that the harder it will be for them to come up with the best approach.

This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines (http://forums.startrekonline.com/announcement.php?f=24&a=2). Thank you, Dionaea

Now who is poo-pooing who now?

[Tain]

Its definitely in poor taste, but certainly not new. As a previous poster pointed out, deals like this concerning subscriptions to websites like file planet have been done numerous times by other games.

[IIntrude]

The OP is unbelievable. Forced? Blackmailed? That is pathetic. Sounds like a child whining about not getting a toy they wanted while at the store. I am sorry, but it is tiresome.

I still don't get it...they give a really good deal on the CO pricing with a nice little bonus for anyone interested in STO. It is CO centric with a bit of STO love thrown in, not the other way around. If CO doesn't interest you, then this deal isn't geared toward you. I thought we had this argument earlier in the week... :(

There will be amply opportunity in the future to get Beta access, and more than likely they will offer lifetime subscriptions for STO with some very sweet bonuses closer to release.

[curtst]

Wasn't listening to the community what turned SWG and WoW in to a crappola? Also I highlighted a sentence which made me laugh pretty hard.

That is kind of a contradiction huh? I think he meant to do that though lol.

[IIntrude]

Cryptic's management NEEDS TO KNOW that the marketing on CO managed to offend people who's primary interest is STO...

I still don't understand how anyone can be offended by any of this...it makes no sense to me.

This was all CO marketing geared toward CO players. Now if this were closer to STO release and they released a "buy 6 months of CO get this awesome uniform deal" then yeah that would be offensive. But the current deal offensive??? Really? People are offended?

[R4mp4ge]

Wasn't listening to the community what turned SWG and WoW in to a crappola? Also I highlighted a sentence which made me laugh pretty hard.
no that was SOE looking at wow and abandoning their existing customer base in a bid to copy wow's success, the players playing SWG didn't ask for any of the changes, they were quite irate about their game dying TBH.

Now who is poo-pooing who now?I told him not to quash other peoples opinions not that he shouldn't have his own or even speak them, but if your talking about the game talk about the game, don't try to force your opinions on others, my whole point is that cryptic needs to see everyone's opinion, and attacking others opinions on the game is basically going to skew the results.

We're only a test sample, we've seen a bunch of people have the exact same misconception and it's very noteworthy because the majority of people who never even bother with the forums will see that add and make the same misconception and walk away without ever being informed otherwise, that's what I've been trying to point out, and that's why I think it's good that an issue is being made of this, because it's a flaw that needs to be worked on.

[USS_Parallax]

Bye. I expect you'll not be playing any games or buying anything or basically living since stuff like this happens absolutely everywhere.

[WarpVis]

no that was SOE looking at wow and abandoning their existing customer base in a bid to copy wow's success, the players playing SWG didn't ask for any of the changes, they were quite irate about their game dying TBH.

I told him not to quash other peoples opinions not that he shouldn't have his own or even speak them, but if your talking about the game talk about the game, don't try to force your opinions on others, my whole point is that cryptic needs to see everyone's opinion, and attacking others opinions on the game is basically going to skew the results.

We're only a test sample, we've seen a bunch of people have the exact same misconception and it's very noteworthy because the majority of people who never even bother with the forums will see that add and make the same misconception and walk away without ever being informed otherwise, that's what I've been trying to point out, and that's why I think it's good that an issue is being made of this, because it's a flaw that needs to be worked on.

I have not quashed anyone's opinions. I have not the power to remove their posts. But if in my opinion their opinion is infantile I can and as you have stated I should for the good of the game.

[Falin]

Bye. I expect you'll not be playing any games or buying anything or basically living since stuff like this happens absolutely everywhere.

it doesn't happen everywhere, infact most companies have STONG moral and ethical systems in place that don't allow them to pull stuff like this.

[eNDIE]

Your marketing team just showed their true colors. The last thing I want to hear is that I have to be blackmailed into another game to help test STO. If heroes isnt good enough to get its own subs then dont force me to play it just to get a sneak preview of the game I want to play. This shows nothing but realy bad faith in both products and the marketing teams ability to come up with creative ways to get people to play.

Strike one....Microtransactions

Strike two...Blackmailing Beta testers by forcing them to play another game for months

Strike three..and I am out of here...forever.



This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines (http://forums.startrekonline.com/announcement.php?f=24&a=2). Thank you, Dionaea

[SelorKiith]

it doesn't happen everywhere, infact most companies have STONG moral and ethical systems in place that don't allow them to pull stuff like this.

BUAHAHAHA! Sorry... but that is just SO cute... do you really believe in what you just said? :D
That thing is against Morality and Ethics, Cryptic has no moral and ethic? What are you? A Roman Catholic Monk or what?

There is nothing wrong with this ad... it is and ever was just a gift for the CO players and those that plan to play both or CO just until STO Release... so were is the "moral an ethical falsehood" in this? Tell me please...

Why the frakkin' hell is it so hard to understand? Is the Swineflu degrading and killing braincells or what?

[WarpVis]

Why not fuss that there's a toy in Cracker Jack's or there are give-aways with cereal.

Hey I got a free tank of gas when I bought a new car.

Should I send back my Domino's Pizza because it had a coupon sheet attached to the box?

[dryzabone]

it doesn't happen everywhere, infact most companies have STONG moral and ethical systems in place that don't allow them to pull stuff like this.
lol quote of the month:p
serious though, "STONG moral and ethical systems Breached" by giving away a beta key?

[Rhyder]

I ended up buying the 6 month subscription for CO because I am actually going to be playing it. It also gets me to be able to buy Aion and play that and only have to pay that monthly fee for a while. :)

Gaining entry into STO beta is also a added benefit to buying the subscription because I am also interested to help test this game.

[WarpVis]

As I stated earlier, I belive most of the complainers on this issue are not likely to be paying subscribers.

I believe most of them are just looking for a little free play time and are upset that they are not included on this particular give-away.

[Esgar]

it doesn't happen everywhere, infact most companies have STONG moral and ethical systems in place that don't allow them to pull stuff like this.

Out of curiosity, what's unethical or unmoral about this? It's fully optional, it's not the only way in to closed beta, everyone has access to it....

[Jaymz]

There is nothing wrong with this ad... it is and ever was just a gift for the CO players and those that plan to play both or CO just until STO Release... so were is the "moral an ethical falsehood" in this? Tell me please...

For someone who was ranting about dumb people that can't comprehend anything, not more than a page ago, you sure do seem to miss the boat on this one.

This is not a "gift". It's a marketing ploy designed to get more people who have no intention of playing CH for that long; pay for that long. If there was no profit from it, Atari wouldn't do it. hence it's no gift.

Is it immoral? Not really. Is there a more moral way to handle long subscriptions? Sure. How about making them retroactive? That is, if someone actually plays and pays for 6 months, give him a discount on the 7th month. If someone actually plays and pays for a 1.5/2 years, give him a life time sub. But we all know this will never happen. What does happen, and probably always will, is that these companies will have some kind of time limited offer full of extras that don't cost them anything. And the offer will, as it always does, expire before anyone with any kind of sense on him is actually able to determine whether he would really want to / be able to play for that long.

So no, it's not immoral. It's not unethical. Nobody is holding a gun to your head and blah blah blah. But it's also not in YOUR best interest. People need to stop acting like it is.

[Varrangian]

Is it immoral? Not really. Is there a more moral way to handle long subscriptions? Sure. How about making them retroactive? That is, if someone actually plays and pays for 6 months, give him a discount on the 7th month. If someone actually plays and pays for a 1.5/2 years, give him a life time sub. But we all know this will never happen. What does happen, and probably always will, is that these companies will have some kind of time limited offer full of extras that don't cost them anything. And the offer will, as it always does, expire before anyone with any kind of sense on him is actually able to determine whether he would really want to / be able to play for that long.

So no, it's not immoral. It's not unethical. Nobody is holding a gun to your head and blah blah blah. But it's also not in YOUR best interest. People need to stop acting like it is.

The pre-order players get into CO on 8/17 they have until 8/31 to decide if they like CO enough to opt for month to month, six month or a lifetime sub. That is fifteen days of game play to decide. I can tell you that I can usually tell within the first three days if I like a game enough to come back to it again and again.

Again, the argument that is being presented is that people are being "suckered". I honestly can't buy that. I know how much entertainment $60 or $200 dollars buys me, with fifteen days I know fairly well if I like or don't like a game. If after the fifteen days are up and I like the game somewhat, dropping $60 on a sub is in my best interest, as it is cheaper than paying month to month. If I love the game then $200 is far cheaper than paying month to month for the 3-5 years the game is up and running.

There is nothing more moral about retroactive discounts. In fact it is more generous to reward someone for taking a chance on your product (which is exactly what this deal does) than it is to reward them for being cautious.

I just find it to be poor logic to consider this offer anything but rewarding for those who choose to take advantage of it. You see choice implies that they know exactly what they are doing, and honestly it is condescending to even suggest that people can't figure out what this offer cost them and what it gives them.

It is also condescending to suggest that you or I some how know what is best for their money. No one has to take advantage of this, I certainly haven't, but if they do a cost benefit analysis and conclude that the benefits out weight the costs for them, they are in fact correct because only they know how much the cost really is (in time for them) and how rewarding the benefits really are (in pleasure they believe they will gain).

[Thibor]

Your marketing team just showed their true colors. The last thing I want to hear is that I have to be blackmailed into another game to help test STO. If heroes isnt good enough to get its own subs then dont force me to play it just to get a sneak preview of the game I want to play. This shows nothing but realy bad faith in both products and the marketing teams ability to come up with creative ways to get people to play.

Strike one....Microtransactions

Strike two...Blackmailing Beta testers by forcing them to play another game for months

Strike three..and I am out of here...forever.

Just a quick note to you and everyone with your argument ...

BUYING THE 6mo OR LIFETIME CO PRE-ORDER WILL NOT BE THE ONLY WAY TO GET INTO STO BETA.

No, I don't care for how they advertised it here because it makes it look like they're selling beta slots. But, you have to be a very ignorant or naive person to truly believe those buying things like those CO subs will be the only ones beta testing STO.

[KO_Gilligan]

If the prices were expensive I would understand these rants, I'd probably stay on CO month to month because the timing is tough for me.....


But you just can't criticize these prices. Subs are $15 a month, this is just a giveaway. There will be more people kicking themselves for not kicking down $200 than people who resent being left behind because they are standing on some kind of Illusionary rules of good character principles - just buy the dang deal :D

[Jaymz]

There is nothing more moral about retroactive discounts. In fact it is more generous to reward someone for taking a chance on your product (which is exactly what this deal does) than it is to reward them for being cautious.
.

How is it more generous to reward person A over person B (when person A has more faith in you) than it is to reward both of them?

Again, i don't comprehend the reason you guys are going through all this mental gymnastics trying to make this seem like a righteous and kind thing being done by Atari. I'm not saying they are the devil, I, like you, understand that it's all business. I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with people going out of their way trying to make it for more than it really is - a marketing ploy (not a big problem, mind you, i still love all y'all).

And yes, you could possibly make an educated guess on whether you would enjoy a game for 6 months, or a life time, after playing it for about 2 weeks. Then again, why should you? What if you feel like moving on after 3 months? What if you are forced to move on because the game ends up like Hellgate: London and Tabula Rasa? Could you see THAT one coming within 15 days, before the game has even been released? Cause that's when you are expected to pay for a life time subscription.

And yes, nobody is forcing you. It's all about risk vs. reward and the house always wins. For every one satisfied 6-month subscriber (and i don't doubt they are satisfied), there are five 6-month subscribers who left the game early. And those more than covered for what little money was lost by Atari for offering such a deal. And it might be condescending of me to suggest that those five people don't know how to spend their money, but it's a fact. And it's the reason why such an offer even exists.

We all see the logic behind the subscriptions, we all see the logic behind ending the offer on release day. Why do some of us try to make it sound like it's being done out of care for us?

[Varrangian]

How is it more generous to reward person A over person B (when person A has more faith in you) than it is to reward both of them?

Again, i don't comprehend the reason you guys are going through all this mental gymnastics trying to make this seem like a righteous and kind thing being done by Atari. I'm not saying they are the devil, I, like you, understand that it's all business. I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with people going out of their way trying to make it for more than it really is - a marketing ploy (not a big problem, mind you, i still love all y'all).

And yes, you could possibly make an educated guess on whether you would enjoy a game for 6 months, or a life time, after playing it for about 2 weeks. Then again, why should you? What if you feel like moving on after 3 months? What if you are forced to move on because the game ends up like Hellgate: London and Tabula Rasa? Could you see THAT one coming within 15 days, before the game has even been released? Cause that's when you are expected to pay for a life time subscription.

And yes, nobody is forcing you. It's all about risk vs. reward and the house always wins. For every one satisfied 6-month subscriber (and i don't doubt they are satisfied), there are five 6-month subscribers who left the game early. And those more than covered for what little money was lost by Atari for offering such a deal. And it might be condescending of me to suggest that those five people don't know how to spend their money, but it's a fact. And it's the reason why such an offer even exists.

We all see the logic behind the subscriptions, we all see the logic behind ending the offer on release day. Why do some of us try to make it sound like it's being done out of care for us?

No one has claimed this is "Righteous and Kind". Generous has a different meaning than both of those words, one can be generous and not necessarily altruistic. "Liberal in giving", you see Cryptic didn't have to give a beta slot out, but they knew that by being liberal in giving they could attract some people who are on the fence.

If you can't see that the offer is purposely "enticing" you are in fact a moron and whatever "harm" comes to you from that is from your own ignorance, not the fault of Cryptic or any other business. I bought the lifetime sub to LoTRO after beta testing the game for 3 months, I loved it. Then my life changed, I had other priorities and I drifted away from the game. When I went back I just couldn't get back into it. It was still a good game, actually a better one, but I didn't have an interest. I doubt I've played the game long enough to justify the purchase, but I don't feel cheated. I knew full well what I was doing when I purchased it. Again, if anyone doesn't understand the offer they are either a child or a moron and children will need a credit card to make the purchase, so if their parents blindly get it, they are morons.

No one has claimed this is out of "care" it is a perk, it is a perk with the hope to entice, but it is a perk nonetheless. Acting as if it is insidious or that I have a right to feel duped by this deal is roughly like saying I'm fat because McDonald's offered me two double quarter pounders with the purchase of a Membership to a gym when all I wanted was the food and not the gym membership. If I don't use the gym it is my fault and so is my getting fat from eating both the double quarter pounders.

[molbani]

i thought blizzard had contained their trolls to thier own forums...

[triguy616]

Whew, hot topic! Sure, it may be a marketing ploy, but in the end, who cares? It's not hurting us. It'll probably be better for Cryptic. You'll still get a chance to be in the beta. Some of you need to calm down a bit. Yikes.

[Jaymz]

i thought blizzard had contained their trolls to thier own forums...

It might be that the Search option on this forums is a bit wonky but it did not find one record of "wow" or "warcraft" or "blizzard" other than your own in this topic. So am i to assume you are one of those smarty pants that yell "lal wow troll" every time someone says something you don't agree with?


.

Aye, Atari doesn't have to give any beta keys out (I rather assume it is more up to the publisher than the developer), but they have nothing to lose and a lot to gain by doing so (at the manner that they do). And so i can't really see this as a generous thing by any meaning of the word.

Calling the people whom Atari are counting on "morons" is probably further than i ever took it but my point still rests. This could have been done without taking money from morons by doing it retroactively, and thus, not only morons, but even people who knew and accepted the risks, such as your case with LotR:O would be spared.

I rather don't see why morons, and none-morons alike, should even be confronted with such a decision before the game is released. And if a retroactive plan is what we can all agree on would be a good and honest deal, then the current deal offered is something less than.

Then again, we don't expect a business to be honest and fair. I just don't like hearing people calling it a "gift" or talking about what a big favor was done for people who like both game and so on and so forth.

[KO_Gilligan]

We all see the logic behind the subscriptions, we all see the logic behind ending the offer on release day. Why do some of us try to make it sound like it's being done out of care for us?

I have a machine that I built a year ago with a promotional deal on the parts. They were generating interest and making little to no profit.

Processor: AMD Athlon(tm) X2 Dual Core Processor BE-2400 (2 CPUs), ~2.3GHz was $27 free shipping from NewEgg, and they threw in an AMD LOGO 2GB USB flash Drive wristband.

Seriously, if you like Intel it doesn't make me stupid.

It was a great giveaway - almost free - and it was the low power one, I take it up to 2.7GHz when I game the temp stays low and it's stable.

Now I get a $200 Lifetime Subscription to a game I like and they already let me play for free so long if they closed their doors I wouldn't feel cheated... O... and I can get into Beta testing in STO if I want.

It's a no-brainer.

If you don't like the game, Don't play.

No wall of text about how they are a business and trying to make a buck is going to stop me from enjoying the game and the price. Their motives are irrelevant. I'm ready to pay some CO MTs now and get some Phat Costumes. I know what they did :D

[Jaymz]

I don't remember telling you, or anyone, to stop enjoying a game. Nor do i remember saying that not liking Intel makes you stupid.

We were simply having a discussion on the "generosity" of companies. And you seem well aware that it often involves them making a buck, or generating interest (which in time turns into generating a buck).

I do question your joy in paying for a game 5 times over before it's out and being so sure you will be playing it a year from now. But hey, anything is possible, and i did mention that there will be some satisfied costumers, to the publisher's discontent.

That said, i find myself enjoying CH much more than i anticipated. I was actually glued to it yesterday for the better part of the day.

[Amblin]

Your marketing team just showed their true colors. The last thing I want to hear is that I have to be blackmailed into another game to help test STO. If heroes isnt good enough to get its own subs then dont force me to play it just to get a sneak preview of the game I want to play. This shows nothing but realy bad faith in both products and the marketing teams ability to come up with creative ways to get people to play.

Strike one....Microtransactions

Strike two...Blackmailing Beta testers by forcing them to play another game for months

Strike three..and I am out of here...forever.

Another prat that doesn't get betas. It's not a sneak peak, even if it appears that way. Betas are hard work if you are participating correctly. Bug finding and reporting. Testing Testing Testing.

I can't say i'm impressed by the idea of making fans of the game pay a premium to work as free labour for Cryptic but it's no different than many mmo's out there and in development.

If you are willing to pay, you will. If not, you won't. Who cares? It's a personal choice.

There's still the possibility of getting into the STO beta via the normal channels, ie forum participation, guild/clan invites, living near the studio, website competitions etc.

It's not all doom and gloom. You still have a chance at beta. If you choose to pay for it then that's your choice. If not then keep your fingers crossed.

[SelorKiith]

I can't say i'm impressed by the idea of making fans of the game pay a premium to work as free labour for Cryptic but it's no different than many mmo's out there and in development.

You're not paying for a Beta slot... you are paying for a Champions Online Subscription, the Beta Slot is a Bonus to this... in order of Crossproduct Marketing... :rolleyes:

[Amblin]

You're not paying for a Beta slot... you are paying for a Champions Online Subscription, the Beta Slot is a Bonus to this... in order of Crossproduct Marketing... :rolleyes:

You're not entirely correct, the bonus is an implicit part of the offer. I.e You pay, you get to Beta STO guaranteed you also get 6 months or a lifetime sub to CO.

So if you pay, you get a beta slot. Call it what you like but a lot of us here are going to pay to a guaranteed beta slot.

So pedentry aside, you are paying for a beta slot if that is what you want. Infact, the CO subscription is the bonus, depending on your perspective.;)

As a side note to anyone thinking of buying the CO subs to get into beta.

It isn't the only way to get into beta. The potential problem I see is that many forget or dont grasp the beta testing is not just free preview playtime. It's there for the game to be refined and improved. If you just want into the beta because you want to play STO, then you'll get dissillusioned VERY quickly. The game will be broken, unbalanced, prone to crashing. It's this misconception that leads to the inevitable NDA breaks and QQ posts on sites like MMORPG, IGN etc.etc.

Apologies for going off topic there. Where was I? Oh yeah, we're both right, but i'm more right than you lol :p

[SelorKiith]

It isn't the only way to get into beta. The potential problem I see is that many forget or dont grasp the beta testing is not just free preview playtime. It's there for the game to be refined and improved. If you just want into the beta because you want to play STO, then you'll get dissillusioned VERY quickly. The game will be broken, unbalanced, prone to crashing. It's this misconception that leads to the inevitable NDA breaks and QQ posts on sites like MMORPG, IGN etc.etc.


I agree fully on this... and more... I think those that are ranting about this are exactly those people that think of a Beta as a free Demo instead of the work that it is... I played some Betas and I tell you it is really no fun, the most of the time I was writing down things that were bugged or didn't worked as intended or worked as intended but were useless or whatever if the game didn't crashed while doing it, I want the game to be as bug free as possible and not just running around yelling "UUUH! I can play STO!" of course I want to see how it is too but that is more secondary if not tertiary because it is and will not be the Final Product that I eventually will buy regardless of what I've done in Beta if I get into it ;)

[FaeryFire]

Your marketing team just showed their true colors. The last thing I want to hear is that I have to be blackmailed into another game to help test STO.

Actually, it's "look, CO subscriber, since you may be interested by our other game and showed dedication to our company, we would like to invite you to STO beta test".

and not :
"Look, STO forumite, pay 60-200 bucks to beta test our game"

Plus, nothing says they won't invite people into the beta... for free ?

[jhem99]

I'll ask my rich uncle if he will buy a sub for me.......oh, I don't have a rich uncle.:(

[Cormoran]

all these talks about morals and ethics reminds me of something i once heard an old man say "todays generation needs another world war."

a lack of morals and ethics are the prime killer of our species, their lack has killed millions, possibly billions of us and we sit here at our keyboards moaning about cryptics ethics and morals for throwing in an extra perk for the subscription of a videogame. it shows that our generation has no clue what a lack of morals and ethics really are, and just maybe we need a harsh reminder of it.

[Peregrine_Falcon]

Your marketing team just showed their true colors.

Blah blah blah blah blah...

Strike three..and I am out of here...forever.
In response to the OP and anyone else who dislikes what Cryptic has done:

Cryptic has created a win/win situation and you guys don't even see it. Some people really really want to get into STO closed beta. Now instead of just hoping or praying that they are picked Cryptic has provided them with a 100% guaranteed way to get themselves into closed beta. At the same time Cryptic (by their own admission) is hurting for cash so this allows them to also quickly raise some needed cash so that they can stay in business.

This is a win/win situation for both those who want into closed beta and for Cryptic.

For the rest of us that don't want to pay but would still like to get into closed beta rest assured that those people that take advantage of Cryptic's offer are not going to be the only people in closed beta. Cryptic needs a lot of testers and they're still going to pick a lot more people to do a lot of testing. So you and I might still get in.

As for those people that dislike microtransactions or any other forms of payment I only have one thing to say to you: Get over it!

Cryptic is a business and businesses run on money. Cryptic is in business to make money, and they're going to do what they can to make money. You can bet your life that Cryptic isn't creating STO to fulfill your (or my) personal dreams. They are doing it to make money, and for no other reason.

Next time you're in McDonalds try adding cheese to your burger and then complain when they want to charge you extra for it. Make certain that when you're ranting in the managers' face that you take special care to explain to him/her just how "evil" microtransactions are. Let me know how that works out.

Make no mistake, money makes the world go round. And you'd better grow up, get a job, and get used to it!

Or to quote my Captain, "No blah blah blah!"

[Jaymz]

all these talks about morals and ethics reminds me of something i once heard an old man say "todays generation needs another world war."

a lack of morals and ethics are the prime killer of our species, their lack has killed millions, possibly billions of us and we sit here at our keyboards moaning about cryptics ethics and morals for throwing in an extra perk for the subscription of a videogame. it shows that our generation has no clue what a lack of morals and ethics really are, and just maybe we need a harsh reminder of it.

Yeah, and that reminds me what my grandfather once told my father when he complained about the cramp conditions while hiding in the neighbor's house from the Nazis - "today's generation needs another extinction".

Seriously, what's a world war compared to the extinction of the entire dinosaur race. Imagine if that were to happen again, to US. i'd rather have 10 world wars than one of those nasty extinctions.

No... srsly... what? You are not allowed to comment on the the current situation because it could be worse?

[WarpVis]

As I stated earlier, I believe most of the complainers on this issue are not likely to be paying subscribers.

I believe most of them are just looking for a little free play time and are upset that they are not included in this particular give-away because it requires the outlay of funds.

But I find their whole premise that this is unfair to be illogical and their arguments somewhat infantile.

Why not fuss that there's a toy in Cracker Jack's or there are give-a-ways with cereal.

Hey I got a free tank of gas when I bought a new car.

Should I send back my Domino's Pizza because it had a coupon sheet attached to the box?

Heck, I got my cable, internet, and phone service bundled to get better pricing; is that unethical?


I really do believe the plan that Cryptic has laid out is a good plan. By offering the Beta Key to those that are committing in a reasonably significant way to another MMORPG then Cryptic is more likely to get better more useful feedback. They will be getting feedback from the types of people that are actually willing to commit to a subscription fee.

That is not to say that those who do not want to pay do not provide valid feedback and point out actual flaws, but issues and priorities may be significantly different between a 20-40 year old paying subscriber and a 12-25 year old looking for some free game time.

It also makes since from a marketing standpoint. It is called branding. The idea is that you do not just create fans for one game or one IP, but rather fans and loyal customers to the company as a whole. “If you like this product maybe you should take a look at some of our other fine products” is an age old and proven method of building a strong customer base.

[Bulwark]

Actually, I do believe the plan that Cryptic has laid out is a good plan. By offering the Beta Key to those that are committing in a reasonably significant way to another MMORPG then Cryptic is more likely to get better more useful feedback. They will be getting feedback from the types of people that are actually willing to commit to a subscription fee.

If someone is so committed to another MMO, fees and all, how will they have the time to properly beta test another MMO? Beta testing is not a free ride to play a game... it involves a little work, and feedback. I just don't think someone committed to another MMO, even by the same company, could be that committed. So to guarantee a large portion of the beta keys to CO subscribers, is not going to profit much reliable feedback. Just my opinion.

I don't know... but it almost seems like they assume CO will not be as popular, and they're trying to intice more people to subscribe just to guarantee higher numbers. But yeah.... I'm just speculating, so....

[Loekii]

I have not quashed anyone's opinions. I have not the power to remove their posts. But if in my opinion their opinion is infantile I can and as you have stated I should for the good of the game.

We should simply respect others' opinions, rather than making insulting comments and judgments. Respect is the name of the game on the forums. If you don't like someone's opinion, there is no need to label it childish, infantile, etc. I mean there are many posts that could be colored as fanbois and sycophant, but that would be equally unconstructive.

People area obviously upset by some of the recent decisions. That should not mean that the forum rules no longer apply to them and that they maybe called childish or immature. Doing such simply is disrespectful, and not constructive to the community.

[FaeryFire]

If someone is so committed to another MMO, fees and all, how will they have the time to properly beta test another MMO? Beta testing is not a free ride to play a game... it involves a little work, and feedback. I just don't think someone committed to another MMO, even by the same company, could be that committed. So to guarantee a large portion of the beta keys to CO subscribers, is not going to profit much reliable feedback. Just my opinion.

It's not particularly more reliable to, instead, give beta keys to people who are just forum users and/or have simply and only filled a beta form.

[curtst]

If someone is so committed to another MMO, fees and all, how will they have the time to properly beta test another MMO? Beta testing is not a free ride to play a game... it involves a little work, and feedback. I just don't think someone committed to another MMO, even by the same company, could be that committed. So to guarantee a large portion of the beta keys to CO subscribers, is not going to profit much reliable feedback. Just my opinion.

No matter how you look for beta participates for a game you will always have those just looking to demo the game. You still get valuable information from those players as well. Atari/Cryptic understand they will be getting people who just want to demo it and they are fine with it.

[Floria]

I think that it was a very good marketing move on their part. I wouldn't have given Champions Online a single look but seeing the ad and then going to the website, I may give this game a try. Right now, I'm so desperate for a break from LoTR that any game is looking pretty good. If Aion doesn't pan out for me, Champions Online may be just the right thing to inject a bit of fun back into my gaming....:)

I can take or leave the closed beta access. It is a nice incentive though to purchase the game (and subscription) and get the goodies in the process.

[WarpVis]

We should simply respect others' opinions, rather than making insulting comments and judgments. Respect is the name of the game on the forums. If you don't like someone's opinion, there is no need to label it childish, infantile, etc. I mean there are many posts that could be colored as fanbois and sycophant, but that would be equally unconstructive.

People area obviously upset by some of the recent decisions. That should not mean that the forum rules no longer apply to them and that they maybe called childish or immature. Doing such simply is disrespectful, and not constructive to the community.

Opiions are like b u t t s, we all have them, but only some are worth having a look at.:)

[WarpVis]

If someone is so committed to another MMO, fees and all, how will they have the time to properly beta test another MMO? Beta testing is not a free ride to play a game... it involves a little work, and feedback. I just don't think someone committed to another MMO, even by the same company, could be that committed. So to guarantee a large portion of the beta keys to CO subscribers, is not going to profit much reliable feedback. Just my opinion.

I don't know... but it almost seems like they assume CO will not be as popular, and they're trying to intice more people to subscribe just to guarantee higher numbers. But yeah.... I'm just speculating, so....

I seriously doubt that an STO beta slot is that much of an enticement. The CO deal is an excellent deal for those that were looking into CO to begin with and the Beta key and costume are just deal sweeteners.

However, I do believe that persons with disposable income and plenty of free time would be a prime target customer for this sort of thing and I could not think of a better way to recruit and obtain their opinion and feedback.

[Darksplinter]

Oh no there offering people for buying a sub to a game for 6 months or a lifetime...big woop. You can always try to be one of the lucky ones and get randomly chosen for beta.

[.Spartan]

Exactly. I have no idea why people are getting ticked off at "buying a beta slot", because youre not.

I concur. In my opinion, the reason nearly everyone that is irked about it is simply because the number of people allowed to join (in theory) will be limited and current fans of this title only have not been afforded an opportunity to get into the beta yet. Now if and when it does happen, if that option is cash based or otherwise that of course will be a different matter.


In response to the OP and anyone else who dislikes what Cryptic has done:

Cryptic has created a win/win situation and you guys don't even see it. Some people really really want to get into STO closed beta. Now instead of just hoping or praying that they are picked Cryptic has provided them with a 100% guaranteed way to get themselves into closed beta. At the same time Cryptic (by their own admission) is hurting for cash so this allows them to also quickly raise some needed cash so that they can stay in business.

This is a win/win situation for both those who want into closed beta and for Cryptic.

[..]


Which begs the question why no direct buy in option for people in this community? Seems to me they would get a lot of money quickly.

[Varrangian]

Which begs the question why no direct buy in option for people in this community? Seems to me they would get a lot of money quickly.

You think people are throwing fits about selling Lifetime subs to CO, watch what would happen if they offered something similar for STO. STO is not even in beta to have a similar offer would make half the people on this forum have kittens.

And it would be no better if they were to simply sell beta slots. Cryptic is being accused of doing just that with these offers, but in fact they are selling the subscriptions to CO, the beta slots are a perk and not the item being purchased. One might think this is semantic in nature, but if you actually look at the number of people who purchased either subscription plan they by in large are all excited for playing CO.

[Father_Origin]

Your marketing team just showed their true colors. The last thing I want to hear is that I have to be blackmailed into another game to help test STO. If heroes isnt good enough to get its own subs then dont force me to play it just to get a sneak preview of the game I want to play. This shows nothing but realy bad faith in both products and the marketing teams ability to come up with creative ways to get people to play.

Strike one....Microtransactions

Strike two...Blackmailing Beta testers by forcing them to play another game for months

Strike three..and I am out of here...forever.

For this persons defense.

The practice of requiring someone to buy a product that they may or may not be interested it for access
to an unrealated product that is more popular or desirable....is unethical.

even if you like the other product and don't mind paying, it is still unethical.

The purpose is to leave STO players 'stuck' with half a year of another game 'giving cryptic 6 mo of your
money' in the hope that the other game might 'grow' on you.

in most other realms of sales the practice is illegal, unfortunately in the internet game business, the
laws have not kept pace....SOE is famous for its questionable business practices that they
claim are allowed because there are no direct laws covering it.

so cryptic has decided to travel the 'low road' fine...your choice, your product best be 100%
perfect or expect to become hated by your customers.

[Varrangian]

For this persons defense.

The practice of requiring someone to buy a product that they may or may not be interested it for access
to an unrealated product that is more popular or desirable....is unethical.

No it is not unethical. Because no one is requiring it. Who is to say which is more popular. While we might think Trek is, I actually have my doubts. From what I've seen superhero stuff and comic books is pretty damn popular, and if that is combined with a good game the popularity is going to rise.

even if you like the other product and don't mind paying, it is still unethical.
Just because you say it doesn't make it so. You an argument as to why it is unethical.

The purpose is to leave STO players 'stuck' with half a year of another game 'giving cryptic 6 mo of your
money' in the hope that the other game might 'grow' on you.

Again, no one is forcing anyone to do anything. The offer is aimed at those STO fans who were interested in CO and on the fence. It was enticing, but not required to get in to STO beta.

in most other realms of sales the practice is illegal, unfortunately in the internet game business, the
laws have not kept pace....SOE is famous for its questionable business practices that they
claim are allowed because there are no direct laws covering it.

so cryptic has decided to travel the 'low road' fine...your choice, your product best be 100%
perfect or expect to become hated by your customers.

Care to give a real world example? I'm sorry but there is nothing illegal about what they did. SOE's business practices are not the issue with that company, it is customer service problems that made them famous.

This all kind of reminds me of a Wall street Journal blog I read a while back. This blogger was a journalist and had worked for Time Warner as such. Because he worked for Time Warner he was given a free AOL account. At some point his account fell into disuse, but he never canceled the service. Eventually he left Time Warner for the Wall street journal (I have no idea why or on what terms he left), but he left. He never shut off his free AOL account and ended up getting billed for it. He threw a fit on his blog about this, but as terrible as AOL customer service can be he was the one at fault. He had an account and never canceled it. Sure he may have forgotten about the account, but that is not AOL's responsibility.

This whole issue with Cryptic comes down to responsibility, I am responsible for my actions. That includes being responsible enough to know if this offer is good for me or not. The issue of who it is marketed at is moot. This is not an offer marketed at children who might be easily duped, it requires a credit card to purchase and so parental guidance is (or should be) involved for any children. There is nothing low about enticing people to buy something because in the end it is their own choice do purchase it or not.

I've put it this way before and I think it is accurate. If a gym membership offered me two double cheeseburgers with the purchase of the membership and I purchased it for just those cheeseburgers, that's my fault. Now even if these are exclusive cheeseburgers that I can't get any where else, it is still my choice and my fault if I end up regretting it. The only way it becomes unethical is if they are the only cheeseburgers in the world or if the cheeseburgers are laced with drugs to make me desire them.

This offer is neither the only beta in the world nor is it the only way in to STO beta. It is also not laced with drugs that make you desire STO or CO more than you would.

[Liberty]

Well... I must agree that no one forces you to buy anything. That is a personal choice. However, I do think that such things like the Mirrorverse uniforms and entrance to Beta is a definite carrot on the stick. I don't have too much of a problem with this (As long as its not expensive and favors the wealthy) as its in the same vein as collector edition boxed games. It will bother me if they offer too many items/freebies for money. I'm not going to go into SOE as I'm still bitter about them and SWG but I think microtransactions are a real ripoff for people already playing a subscription. I'm a bit more forgiving about expansion packs (yeah I know they are kinda a microtransaction) so long as they are released after a few months and only contain one special item or two. But, round the clock microtransactions or only giving Beta Keys if you pay for something is just wrong. It shows a lack of faith in the product and favors the wealthy. I can most certainly afford it but is it right that I can have so and so collector/special item but the occasional player who is a student at school and struggling for funds can't? I don't think it is. So.... I think Cryptic needs to really get away from the money for items//beta keys model. It shows greed and I don't want them up there with companies that are already despised. Yes, we know you make a game so your company can make money. But.... A quality product and good customer support are going to bring and keep subscribers. Carrots on the stick are good for a quick buck but they they are not likely to keep a player in the game.

[.Spartan]

You think people are throwing fits about selling Lifetime subs to CO, watch what would happen if they offered something similar for STO. STO is not even in beta to have a similar offer would make half the people on this forum have kittens.

And it would be no better if they were to simply sell beta slots. Cryptic is being accused of doing just that with these offers, but in fact they are selling the subscriptions to CO, the beta slots are a perk and not the item being purchased. One might think this is semantic in nature, but if you actually look at the number of people who purchased either subscription plan they by in large are all excited for playing CO.

I concur with your position. I know the STO stuff is a perk. I was simply explaining the reason people are angry.

For what it is worth, I would not have an issue with them outright selling beta slots for cash as long as ALL the money went to them. I do not want to see a situation like the one that happened with AoC. You buy the key from them and download from them. I do not think the community would be so outrage if they did such a thing. As long as they stated something like:

30% of the slots will be for the CO perk
30% for direct purchase
10% for random selection
10% for forum activity
10% other perks to be announced
10% contests and whatnot...

Right now however we have no such information and the devs seem to always farm out info to other sites. Consequently this community is feeling like a neglected and abuse ******* child.

[Varrangian]

But, round the clock microtransactions or only giving Beta Keys if you pay for something is just wrong. It shows a lack of faith in the product and favors the wealthy. I can most certainly afford it but is it right that I can have so and so collector/special item but the occasional player who is a student at school and struggling for funds can't? I don't think it is. So.... I think Cryptic needs to really get away from the money for items//beta keys model. It shows greed and I don't want them up there with companies that are already despised. Yes, we know you make a game so your company can make money. But.... A quality product and good customer support are going to bring and keep subscribers. Carrots on the stick are good for a quick buck but they they are not likely to keep a player in the game.

As someone who is a graduate student teacher I don't really have a lot of expendable income, but that doesn't mean that I feel like those with greater income are cheating me. I want to own an Aston Martin V12 Vantage, but I can't does that mean Aston Martin is being unfair? Aston Martin knows their expenses, they know their income if they felt they needed someone like me as a customer they would adjust their prices, but then again if they did that what they were offering would likely not be the V12 Vantage. So they choose to exclude people like me from their customer base.

Cryptic is a company and they want to make profits, they need profits to pay their employees, keep the servers running invest in new technology, create new games and add content to their existing games. They know their expenses, they know their income, I trust that while they aren't giving me anything for free they also realize that asking too much from me will drive me away. If this offer drives you away that is perfectly reasonable, what is unreasonable is to think that they are catering to the wealthy anymore than any company that does an analysis of their costs and income.

There is nothing egalitarian about economics.

[Varrangian]

I concur with your position. I know the STO stuff is a perk. I was simply explaining the reason people are angry.

For what it is worth, I would not have an issue with them outright selling beta slots for cash as long as ALL the money went to them. I do not want to see a situation like the one that happened with AoC. You buy the key from them and download from them. I do not think the community would be so outrage if they did such a thing. As long as they stated something like:

30% of the slots will be for the CO perk
30% for direct purchase
10% for random selection
10% for forum activity
10% other perks to be announced
10% contests and whatnot...

Right now however we have no such information and the devs seem to always farm out info to other sites. Consequently this community is feeling like a neglected and abuse ******* child.

See there really isn't a finite number on beta slots. Sure not everyone gets a chance to get in, but to complicate matters some people who get in don't participate. So game companies might start with X as their beta goal and then change that goal to Y because they need more people, or Z because they've found a problem that they need specific kinds of people (i.e. specific comp specs or connection speeds).

[IIntrude]

Until we have word on the Closed Beta, and are close or underway, I don't think anyone here need feel neglected.

Now, if we are 4 or 5 months into CB and the only beta testers are those who bought the CO package and received the Beta as a perk, or those who attended the meet and greet and were first in line...then yeah, people would rightfully be upset.

But if this CB is like any other, those who have got ta CB slot are only a small number of the eventual total who get access. There will be contests, magazine giveaways, website giveaways, fileplanet subscribers, etc... Simply put, some people may have gotten access before others, but the story isn't over, there is a lot of time left.

[.Spartan]

See there really isn't a finite number on beta slots. Sure not everyone gets a chance to get in, but to complicate matters some people who get in don't participate. So game companies might start with X as their beta goal and then change that goal to Y because they need more people, or Z because they've found a problem that they need specific kinds of people (i.e. specific comp specs or connection speeds).
Of course but there is the perception that as you said, not everyone will get a chance to get in and that is the crux of the matter.


Until we have word on the Closed Beta, and are close or underway, I don't think anyone here need feel neglected.

Now, if we are 4 or 5 months into CB and the only beta testers are those who bought the CO package and received the Beta as a perk, or those who attended the meet and greet and were first in line...then yeah, people would rightfully be upset.

But if this CB is like any other, those who have got ta CB slot are only a small number of the eventual total who get access. There will be contests, magazine giveaways, website giveaways, fileplanet subscribers, etc... Simply put, some people may have gotten access before others, but the story isn't over, there is a lot of time left.

Which to my point about a near total lack of information of the 'big plan' being disseminated within this community.

[Varrangian]

Of course but there is the perception that as you said, not everyone will get a chance to get in and that is the crux of the matter.


But that is always the case. It is more about time than it is about space. If everyone were let in the process would become impossible to manage. This is actually why so many companies "sell" beta access in one form or another because it makes it so much easier than trying to manage the process of who gets in and who doesn't.

If I don't get into Beta it is not going to kill me. I can't imagine why it would bother other people that much either. Sure we all "want" in, but I assume we are all mature enough to understand the difference between want and need.

[Liberty]

Yeah, I expect them to do stuff to make money. Heh, but there is a difference between the occasional expansion pack, microtransaction, and collector edition gold, silver, titanium pack and simply whoring the company out. When your on a constant state of givee givee if ya gimme money then your game really should be on the Free to Play model than on a subscription. I realized they are a company and are out to make money but a company also has to keep a set of standards to maintain a level of respect. Most for example would agree that Bioware and Blizzard are respectable while most would agree that SOE is not. Those reputations are based off actions they have taken. Yes, I realized that a company could also care less about its rep if there is a buck in it for them. We call that Selling your Soul. Heh. I have always thought Cryptic to be a respectable company and have had good customer support with their games when problems did arise. This is not to say everyone likes games from Cryptic but from my perspective I haven't really heard much negative feedback about the company. I hope this stays true and I hope they deliver a quality product. I would like to think that in addition to money that they want to stand out for bringing an awesome game to the market. I mean its freakin Star Trek.... Would you really want to be known for screwin that up? Heh.

[Varrangian]

Yeah, I expect them to do stuff to make money. Heh, but there is a difference between the occasional expansion pack, microtransaction, and collector edition gold, silver, titanium pack and simply whoring the company out. When your on a constant state of givee givee if ya gimme money then your game really should be on the Free to Play model than on a subscription. I realized they are a company and are out to make money but a company also has to keep a set of standard to maintain a level of respect. Most for example would agree that Bioware and Blizzard are respectable while most would agree that SOE is not. Those reputations are based off actions they have taken. Yes, I realized that a company could also care less about its rep if theres a buck in it for them. We call that Selling your Soul. Heh. I have always thought Cryptic to be a respectable company and have had good customer support with their games when problems did arise. This is not to say everyone likes games from Cryptic but from my perspective I haven't really heard much negative about the company. I hope this stays true and I hope they deliver a quality product. I would like to think that in addition to money that they want to stand out for bringing an awesome game to the market. I mean its freakin Star Trek.... Would you really want to be known for screwin that up? Heh.

Funny you should mention Bioware. They are currently running an offer on DragonAge that gives people who buy (I think the collectors edition) it perks for Mass Effect. I see Cryptics offers as the same thing.

[Liberty]

Monkey see Monkey do I guess. As long as these gusy (Bioware, Cryptic, and anyone else respectable) keep it in moderation. Best I can sum it up. Guess we will have to wait and see.

[Inquizitor]

I'm sorry but this isn't targeted at CO players. If it was they wouldn't put it on the announcments for this site. Furthermore I think the entire proposal doesn't speak well for CO itself. Why does Cryptic think CO players are going to have alot of time on their hands to devote to Beta testing STO? Why wouldn't they expect players to be playing CO?

When it comes time for STO to be released are we going to be trying to bribe people to beta their next project as well? If so It will speak poorly of STO at the time. an MMO is a time commitment. The game itself has to be able to stand on it's own merits and not try to piggyback it's success on a different product.

While it is true that no one is forcing us to buy CO the fact that they are trying to bribe us into spending money for a game we don't care about speaks poorly for them. It indicates a lack of respect for those of us truely interested in STO. You know. Those of us who would devote all our attention towards Beta testing and helpign make STO the best game we can. I can understand teh Star trek themed contests they have been running with Beta as a prise. Such a winner is going to have the time, motivation, and interest to beta test this game. I don't understand why Cryptic thinks a bunch of random CO players is going to make an ideal early test group. Especially if it isn't targeted at us as some in this thread are claiming.

[IIntrude]

They did wait for several days before posting it on STO's site, it was not there on day 1. Also both sites, CO and STO have advertisements for each other on their sites. I think it is simply smart marketing by the company making both games cross-promoting them.

[Liberty]

Heh, well there is not reading much into this. Bluntly. It was done for the money. I don't think we see much advertised on CO webpage for STO cause well.... Heh, we are kinda starving for STO updates as it is. Yes Klingons, I do weep and hope they release some more ships and pics for you. Sometimes I get so angry waiting for a new screenshot update I feel like sending a army of Borg Tribbles after Cryptic. Resistance is futile :eek:

[Rgoodfel]

I have a machine that I built a year ago with a promotional deal on the parts. They were generating interest and making little to no profit.

Processor: AMD Athlon(tm) X2 Dual Core Processor BE-2400 (2 CPUs), ~2.3GHz was $27 free shipping from NewEgg, and they threw in an AMD LOGO 2GB USB flash Drive wristband.

Seriously, if you like Intel it doesn't make me stupid.

It was a great giveaway - almost free - and it was the low power one, I take it up to 2.7GHz when I game the temp stays low and it's stable.

Now I get a $200 Lifetime Subscription to a game I like and they already let me play for free so long if they closed their doors I wouldn't feel cheated... O... and I can get into Beta testing in STO if I want.

It's a no-brainer.

If you don't like the game, Don't play.

No wall of text about how they are a business and trying to make a buck is going to stop me from enjoying the game and the price. Their motives are irrelevant. I'm ready to pay some CO MTs now and get some Phat Costumes. I know what they did :D

KO_Gilligan I so agree with you. This deal is awesome if you were interested in CO anyway. I think the major part of the "controversy" is people who are afraid they will not get chosen for beta without paying for it and they don't want CO. But look peeps, the devs have mentioned they want to try to run six months of beta. If that is the case if you want to make sure you are in beta that is only 10 bucks a month. Which is a deal.

Also, *pauses to read some legal documents* CO has some really fun powers to play with, that you can see with the info on them they are releasing. If you are interested in comics at all.... it could be a lot of fun.

The only last thing I will add here is remind every to BE NICE! Otherwise you make Awen unhappy. You don't want to make Awen unhappy she will stop baking us cookies.

[Liberty]

Meh. I'll probly be giving CO a try anyways. Guess my super hero can be named Captain Oblivious :D

The power is yours! @.o

[WarpVis]

Another possible source of all the animosity, which just occurred to me, is all those that believe that the Federation is a grand socialist utopia would find the very idea of making a profit reprehensible.

Therefore, any bundle or package that would boost potential customer base and therefore profit potential is evil and must be stopped.

[Rgoodfel]

Another possible source of all the animosity, which just occurred to me, is all those that believe that the Federation is a grand socialist utopia would find the very idea of making a profit reprehensible.

Therefore, any bundle or package that would boost potential customer base and therefore profit potential is evil and must be stopped.

Well, it is possible. It is also possible that the Tribbles will takeover the Klingon Empire. Highly unlikely, but possible I guess.

[Arsmajka]

Just a funny thought , If the game tanks alot off people will be out of a lot of money. i was trying more or less to make a point about buying subs to a game that isn't out yet (Champions Online) and not know how its going to do in the market.
This ofcourse is just my own opinion

[curtst]

Just a funny thought , If the game tanks alot off people will be out of a lot of money.

And with it being a Star Trek game the possibility of that happening is fairly high. Not trying to be a downer, I want the game to be successful, but given the track record of Star Trek games it doesn't look good.

GOOD LUCK CRYPTIC!!!

[CaptainQuirk]

Wasn't listening to the community what turned SWG and WoW in to a crappola?

I can't speak for WoW, but in terms of SWG, SOE NEVER listened to the community. the NGE which ruined the game was based on feedback from a focus group made up of people who had never played SWG before. Of people who were not a part of the pre-launch SWG community asnd therefore had no clue as to WHY things were designed the way they were.

The truth of the matter is that SWG never was what it should have been, and SOE made it common practice to marginalize or ourtight ignore those who tried to point it out. Every "goodbye" letter I ever read on the forums before the CU indicated that the reason they were leaving was because the game content didn't feel enough like Star Wars and that game-breaking bugs weren't being fixed. Not a single person in the community ever ONCE asked for either the CU the way it was designed, or the NGE at all.

SOE's biggest mistake was obtaining the Star Wars license. Because with it came the Star Wars enthusiasts who, I don't know, were expecting to have an actual Star Wars game. Which is precisely what, heretofore, SOE has gone out of their way to avoid providing while at the same time trying everthing OTHER than that to keep SWG just treading water. If they didn't want to make a real Star Wars game, then they should not have bothered licensing it. They could have done exactly what they did with the game's original design, with all-original artwork and delivered exactly what SWG has been and remains to this day: A generic MMO with a sci-fi skin.

Star Wars Galaxies has been and remains very Starwarsy. But it has never been Star Wars.

And the community had absolutely nothing to do with how it turned out, aside from refusing to pay for something that was changed from a game that they enjoyed to one which they didn't. SOE shot themselves in the foot when they shoved the NGE down everyone's throats and refused to roll back when people began leaving in droves that dwarfed those of the post-CU exodus only six months before.

That is what turned SWG into crapola, as you put it.

[JoJimGregory]

Your marketing team just showed their true colors. The last thing I want to hear is that I have to be blackmailed into another game to help test STO. If heroes isnt good enough to get its own subs then dont force me to play it just to get a sneak preview of the game I want to play. This shows nothing but realy bad faith in both products and the marketing teams ability to come up with creative ways to get people to play.

Strike one....Microtransactions

Strike two...Blackmailing Beta testers by forcing them to play another game for months

Strike three..and I am out of here...forever.

As far as micro transactions are concerned, the Devs have stated it's not going to be nearly as bad as many have feared. And blackmailing you for a beta key? Please, it's obvious you only wanted in the beta to play, not work. They need worker bees to find all those nasty nasty bugs.

[WarpVis]

Well, it is possible. It is also possible that the Tribbles will takeover the Klingon Empire. Highly unlikely, but possible I guess.

Well it was either that or they were whiny malcontents jealous of somebodyelse's good fortune.

[Rota]

Goodbye


We'll seeya when you change your mind on release day

[CaptainQuirk]

And with it being a Star Trek game the possibility of that happening is fairly high. Not trying to be a downer, I want the game to be successful, but given the track record of Star Trek games it doesn't look good.

GOOD LUCK CRYPTIC!!!

Yes, Good luck indeed, Cryptic.

I'm not being sarcastic there. Every MMO based upon a pre-existing work, be it movie or novel, invarriably inherrits the merciless scrutiny of that work's pre-existing fanbase. And if said MMO adopts the name of that work, it instantly becomes a niche game, where the average mainstream gamer will show no interest in it because they have no interest in the work it is named after. That leaves the fanbase of the original work as the core audience, even though the suits in marketing would rather the core audience be made up of mainstreamers.

I don't envy Cryptic their task. But I am concerned that too much of the game's design will be based on the perceived expectations of a mainstream core audience that they ultimately won't have rather than on the expectations of the niche audience they will have a hard time holding on to.

The mainstream audience is fickle anyway. They rarely dedicate themselves to a single MMO any longer than it takes for the next new shiny MMO to come out. Niche audiences, however, are almost lifetime enthusiasts. And whether respective MMO companies' marketing departments wish to accept it or not, Star Trek, Star Wars, Stargate and other fanbases are niche groups. But they are very BIG niche groups, each with numbers sufficient enough to keep an MMO sitting pretty in the black indefinitely.

Look at how many people go to movies or watch new series based on what they are fans of. At least when they go to those movies or watch those series, they are actually getting what they pay for. Most fans of a pre-existing work who play an MMO based on that work do not get what the name suggests. All because some idiot in marketing decided that the audience that best knows and loves the work upon which the game is supposed to be based isn't good enough.

So yes... Cryptic, I wish you very good luck. Just remember what I said once before. Niche groups have the strongest word-of-mouth advertising networks around. And a lot of times, that word often spreads beyond the niche...

Since the NGE, SOE has not attempted to advertise SWG. But word of mouth from the disgruntled Star Wars fans who cannot find enough Star Wars in Galaxies to make it worth their time spread so far as the mainstream media, carrying with it enough bad press to disuade innumerable potential subscribers from even bothering with it. All because SOE could not bother to make SWG a Star Wars game first and foremost and an MMO second.

Just domething to ponder.

[CaptainQuirk]

As far as micro transactions are concerned, the Devs have stated it's not going to be nearly as bad as many have feared.

That's what SOE said to the SWG community about the virtual trading card game's loot cards that grant actual in-game items. That they wouldn't interfere with actual gameplay. But their very existance interferes, because it takes content that should have gone to the crafting community's existing gameplay mechanics and introduces it through a delivery mechanism completely outside the gameplay of the MMO.

Every expansion to that trading card game, which brings with it more loot cards, whips the community into a frenzy all over again. And SOE's response is to lock every complaint that pops up.

SOE refused to try to really understand the community's initial concerns.

And incidentally, "not nearly as bad as many have feared" as far as I am concerned is bad enough.

[Liberty]

I think Captain Q has some good points. Hmmm.... Q.... Nah. Couldn't be. Anyways. Jus wanted ta point out ya have to be careful listening to your player base too. heh Thats why everytime you turned a corner in SWG there was a Jedi playing with a lightsaber. In full public view I might add.Everyone wanted to be a Jedi and they gave them what they wanted. Hmm.... Were they not suppose ta be rare and in hiding. But we will let SWG rest. Heh, almost feel its like Taboo talking about you know.... That other Sci Fi genre in a Star Trek forum. I do hope that Cryptic trys to keep it as much Star Trek as they can. I'm a little worried at how you can just change out ships tho it makes a bit of sense for play purposes. I would hope that they would implement some sort of award system that each ship could earn to give incentive for players to command older less powerful vessels. Fleets would be more realistic that way instead of everyone going out in the biggest and most powerful ship. That doesn't seem very Trekky. Not every ship in the navy today is a cruiser or a battleship and when they complete a campaign or win an award the award is usually displayed on the side of the ship. Thus I feel each ship should earn its own set of accomplishments and perhaps captains can earn special achievements by tackling odds in a vessel that is outmatched by his opponent. I like a challenge and I plan to push that little starter ship as far as it can go. I don't want to mothball it. :)

[Rhyder]

Is this STO beta slot gaurenteed access into the Closed Beta phases at any time during CB, or right when CB starts? I paid for the CO subscription and already bought CO, I'm just curious on what kind of "gaurenteed" access they are giving us. I have been in beta for CO almost a year and I wasn't there to play the game, I was there to test. Just wanted to get that clarified before I get called for just wanting to play STO. :)

I would greatly appreciate being able to help test this game as well as I did with CO. I believe STO can turn into a real good game, especially if it has the right community/beta testers.

[CaptainQuirk]

Jus wanted ta point out ya have to be careful listening to your player base too. heh Thats why everytime you turned a corner in SWG there was a Jedi playing with a lightsaber. In full public view I might add.Everyone wanted to be a Jedi and they gave them what they wanted. Hmm.... Were they not suppose ta be rare and in hiding.

Ah, yes. The Jedi issue. An issue that should have been a non-issue, and could have had Raph Koster listened to me and others who shared my standpoint that SWG should have been set immediately following the events of Return of the Jedi, so that the Jedi would no longer have to hide and could become relatively common-place. SOE's marketing department made the unalterable decision to set Star Wars Galaxies during the height of the Galactic Civil War, between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back. A point where at the time there were no known Jedi aside from Luke and Yoda, and no Sith aside from Darths Sidious and Vader. We tried to warn them but in typical SOE fashion, they ignored us and rammed their vision down our throats.

But we will let SWG rest. Heh, almost feel its like Taboo talking about you know.... That other Sci Fi genre in a Star Trek forum.

I know what you mean. But SWG is another MMO based on an IP that is as widely recognized as Star Trek. The mistakes SOE made in terms of how the subject matter was translated into a game should be part of Cryptic's thought process. Because while the two IPs are as fdifferent as apples and oranges, the crux of the matter is the audience that stands to have a more vested interest has been outright ignored in one and in many cases feels that its concerns are not being taken seriously enough.

I do hope that Cryptic trys to keep it as much Star Trek as they can. I'm a little worried at how you can just change out ships tho it makes a bit of sense for play purposes.

I think it is meant to simulate one's career in Starfleet (or the Klingon Defense Force). One of the elements from the new Star Trek movie that I think was emphesised for the purpose of establishing the difference between the TITLE of Captain and the RANK of Captain. In that movie Kirk was still a Cadet, and yet when Captain Pike left Spock in command of the Enterprise, he declared Kirk as First Officer. Spock became Acting Captain. Later, when Spock relenquished command and Kirk stepped up, HE became Acting Captain.

Acting Captain means someone not of the actual RANK of captain assuming the TITLE of Captain as commander of the ship. And incidentally, as I understand the original premise for Starfleet, it is a non-military organization which maintains a military command hierarchy. So technically, one could be given the rank of Captain straight out of the Academy (if one's performance in an actual field application merrits it). In the new movie, this was done in Kirk's case. Saving billions of lives far outweighs spending years sitting at a console and cataloguing anomalies, I guess.

Of course, Kirk is Kirk and therefore the exception to the general rule :)

Anyway... All that to say that I have a feeling that the command structure in STO will be modeled after the way it was depicted in STXI. Where actual rank does not weigh so heavily as appointed position.

"I'm not the captain anymore, Mr. Spock... You are."
-Captain Christopher Pike

I would hope that they would implement some sort of award system that each ship could earn to give incentive for players to command older less powerful vessels. Fleets would be more realistic that way instead of everyone going out in the biggest and most powerful ship. That doesn't seem very Trekky. Not every ship in the navy today is a cruiser or a battleship and when they complete a campaign or win an award the award is usually displayed on the side of the ship. Thus I feel each ship should earn its own set of accomplishments and perhaps captains can earn special achievements by tackling odds in a vessel that is outmatched by his opponent. I like a challenge and I plan to push that little starter ship as far as it can go. I don't want to mothball it. :)

I guess we'll just have to see how it plays out.

[Liberty]

Heh, will probly end up with me calling a Federation tow truck after a battle. :D

[KO_Gilligan]

Is this STO beta slot gaurenteed access into the Closed Beta phases at any time during CB, or right when CB starts? I paid for the CO subscription and already bought CO, I'm just curious on what kind of "gaurenteed" access they are giving us. I have been in beta for CO almost a year and I wasn't there to play the game, I was there to test. Just wanted to get that clarified before I get called for just wanting to play STO. :)

I would greatly appreciate being able to help test this game as well as I did with CO. I believe STO can turn into a real good game, especially if it has the right community/beta testers.

I'm sure this beta will be different, I forsee lots of "input" :rolleyes:

I think the passive testers might be preferred this time :D

and hi Rhyder *waves*

[Loekii]

Is this STO beta slot gaurenteed access into the Closed Beta phases at any time during CB, or right when CB starts? I paid for the CO subscription and already bought CO, I'm just curious on what kind of "gaurenteed" access they are giving us. I have been in beta for CO almost a year and I wasn't there to play the game, I was there to test. Just wanted to get that clarified before I get called for just wanting to play STO. :)

I would greatly appreciate being able to help test this game as well as I did with CO. I believe STO can turn into a real good game, especially if it has the right community/beta testers.

I have not read the fine print, but from the sounds of it, the only guarantee is access to Closed beta, which if taken literally, could mean the last day of Closed Beta.

Now, obviously, that will not be the case, but the point is that the CO offer is not a guarantee to get into beta on Day 1, either. It could be only the last 1/4 of Closed beta.

[Electus]

Me: Darlin, i'm gonna need to put $59.99 on the credit card...

Her: Ok, whats it for?

Me: Well you know that STO game i keep talkin about?, Well If I purchase a 6 month subscription to Champions online, I get a spot in the beta.

Her: Whats Champions Online? (God I knew she was gonna ask that...)

Me: CO is another game that the makers of STO are making.

Her: So you pay for 6 months to CO and you get to play STO for free? And whats a beta? (This is where I just go ahead and turn off the left side of my brain, to minimize the pain.)

Me: Well no, the beta is just until the game comes out, then you pay for the game, then you pay a subscription to STO.

Her: So why aren't they making you buy CO? And whats a beta? (I know that's twice she has asked but i'm really really trying to avoid the explanation.)

Me: No, you do have to buy CO, if you wanna play it, ...I just have to buy the 6 months subscription to CO.

Her: (Oh how she loves to recap.) So... you are buying a 6 month subscription to a game you not gonna buy for $60 dollars (I correct her saying $59.99) then buy STO and a subscription when STO comes out? And whats a beta?

Me: (Alright, lets get this over with.) A beta is where I get to play the game before it comes out, so I can test it and send in bug reports and help them fix it before its release.

Her: Shouldn't they be paying you then if you gonna be fixing it for them? (Oh Jesus, what have i done..)

Me: No, no doesn't work that way, its also a way for me to check out STO while im at it.

Her: Ok well, sounds like you know what your doing, it's just 60 dollars anyways. (correct her again, its 59.99) And I don't know why you tell me these things, (me neither) always do what you want babe, and I have to get going, i'm going to buy that beige dress we saw at Macy's yesterday for your brothers wedding..

Me: The beige one? I thought you were going to buy the blue one?

Her: Oh I am, see the store is making me buy the beige dress before I can buy the blue one....

Me: (I just drop to my knees in defeat)

Well Cryptic I hope you see what sacrifices I am making to be a part of STO, I can only hope you are doing the same, but I have every reason to believe you are. GL!

Electus

[Rota]

you forgot to add the retail price of the CO game in addition to the sub

[ngille]

Electus, you are awesome, dude. I really needed that laugh!

Luckily my wife is a gamer so I just showed her the add and she said we'll see if we can get it next payday :)

[ibby1kanobi]

Why didn't you just punch her in the baby maker and let her know your going to get whatever you dang well please? And why isn't she making you a sandwich? And why is she allowed to backtalk you?

Id set her straight if I was you.....;-)


Nah, I kid. I feel for you man, let's hope it's all worth it eh?

[ibby1kanobi]

Just shouting out to see if anyone else jumped on the offer to secure a closed beta spot and is also going to be playing CO?

I'd like to see if maybe we could start a League of our own and get to know each other there before we all hop into STO.

Anyways lemme get a sound off from whoever is and lets see if we can't make this happen. Alot of the community here is really cool from what I can tell and we could get a jump start on this team/fleet thing!

[dryzabone]

You know that sounds kinda cool, count me in:D
Only took the 6month sub though, so not sure if i might stick around after that (in CO that is, STO will be for life)

[eNDIE]

yep gonna be playing CO until STO releases.

[Jaymz]

That actually sounds interesting and could be rather cool. We could call the league "Starfleet" (yeah, i'm very original, i know).

I'm still on the fence on CH though. I don't doubt that i changed my mind considerablly about CH since testing the Beta, just not sure if i'm going to cough up the dough just yet. It's pretty fun and all, but kinda feels like a one trick pony. MMOs usually take a while to pick up, and i'm afraid that by the time this one does i would have already moved on to ST:O.

[Sorbek]

I'll be there somewhere. Gonna use it as a way to pass the time between STO beta tests and STO release.

Taking the lifetime sub on the 14th. No worries about sub fees after that.

[ngille]

I'll be there as well.

[ibby1kanobi]

Awesome, it looks like we have a decent sized group forming already. Whoever wants to chime in keep it going so I can see how big the group will be, then I'll either try and bring this back to page one or start a new post on the 17th and post my ingame name and get the group started for everyone to join in.

I'm normally a one man MMO type of guy, but if CO shapes up to be really mind blowing I might stay on after STO releases and play both, if not its STO for me forever as well.

Anyways, awesome so far, keep the posts coming and well get this rockin'.

[Deyvid]

If this were a Klingon relationship, the man would simply declare "Woman! I am going to buy this now, because I want it, and that is all that matters." Then he would do his best to duck the sharp objects being hurled at him.

The only thing more fierce than a Klingon warrior, is a Klingon woman.


Props to your wife tho. Not getting mad, but getting even.

[Mysticone622]

I'm in also. Before the offer I was going to play CO and STO, the lifetime offer mean I never have to pay a fee again for CO. If they do a lifetime offer for STO I'll grab that one as well.

[overlordthor]

wow, I really cant believe you are paying 60 only to play the beta, and not buying CO itself to play. I mean, come on, your basicly buying a game, for that much, but wait, only an incomplete game you can only play for a few months....

[deeboboy]

Me: Darlin, i'm gonna need to put $59.99 on the credit card...

Her: Ok, whats it for?

Me: Well you know that STO game i keep talkin about?, Well If I purchase a 6 month subscription to Champions online, I get a spot in the beta.

Her: Whats Champions Online? (God I knew she was gonna ask that...)

Me: CO is another game that the makers of STO are making.

Her: So you pay for 6 months to CO and you get to play STO for free? And whats a beta? (This is where I just go ahead and turn off the left side of my brain, to minimize the pain.)

Me: Well no, the beta is just until the game comes out, then you pay for the game, then you pay a subscription to STO.

Her: So why aren't they making you buy CO? And whats a beta? (I know that's twice she has asked but i'm really really trying to avoid the explanation.)

Me: No, you do have to buy CO, if you wanna play it, ...I just have to buy the 6 months subscription to CO.

Her: (Oh how she loves to recap.) So... you are buying a 6 month subscription to a game you not gonna buy for $60 dollars (I correct her saying $59.99) then buy STO and a subscription when STO comes out? And whats a beta?

Me: (Alright, lets get this over with.) A beta is where I get to play the game before it comes out, so I can test it and send in bug reports and help them fix it before its release.

Her: Shouldn't they be paying you then if you gonna be fixing it for them? (Oh Jesus, what have i done..)

Me: No, no doesn't work that way, its also a way for me to check out STO while im at it.

Her: Ok well, sounds like you know what your doing, it's just 60 dollars anyways. (correct her again, its 59.99) And I don't know why you tell me these things, (me neither) always do what you want babe, and I have to get going, i'm going to buy that beige dress we saw at Macy's yesterday for your brothers wedding..

Me: The beige one? I thought you were going to buy the blue one?

Her: Oh I am, see the store is making me buy the beige dress before I can buy the blue one....

Me: (I just drop to my knees in defeat)

Well Cryptic I hope you see what sacrifices I am making to be a part of STO, I can only hope you are doing the same, but I have every reason to believe you are. GL!

Electus


i had the same conversation with my wife when i was trying to explain about xbox live i think ill just leave the sto diccusion till a year or 2 after it comes out

[Nalah]

I"ll be there for six months, at least. :D

[deeboboy]

not me xbox till the game comes out

[Bigwig]

Save your money and wait till your invited. If you ask me, i think everyone here has a good chance of getting invited, it's not like the internet community is falling over each other to sign up, and its not like Cryptic are hyping STO at all to rake in testers.

[SurvokThomas]

I'll join in, sounds like fun. And even if CO, doesn't really work out (though it looks pretty fun) I will certainly not object to having a fleet of friends to roll into STO with at start.

[kingblackthornjr]

E P I C


Had almost the exact same conversation with my wife, except I didn't buy the subscription.....But she did buy 2 new 360 games for her.

[funky_jesus]

Me: Darlin, i'm gonna need to put $59.99 on the credit card...

Her: Ok, whats it for?

Me: Well you know that STO game i keep talkin about?, Well If I purchase a 6 month subscription to Champions online, I get a spot in the beta.

Her: Whats Champions Online? (God I knew she was gonna ask that...)

Me: CO is another game that the makers of STO are making.

Her: So you pay for 6 months to CO and you get to play STO for free? And whats a beta? (This is where I just go ahead and turn off the left side of my brain, to minimize the pain.)

Me: Well no, the beta is just until the game comes out, then you pay for the game, then you pay a subscription to STO.

Her: So why aren't they making you buy CO? And whats a beta? (I know that's twice she has asked but i'm really really trying to avoid the explanation.)

Me: No, you do have to buy CO, if you wanna play it, ...I just have to buy the 6 months subscription to CO.

Her: (Oh how she loves to recap.) So... you are buying a 6 month subscription to a game you not gonna buy for $60 dollars (I correct her saying $59.99) then buy STO and a subscription when STO comes out? And whats a beta?

Me: (Alright, lets get this over with.) A beta is where I get to play the game before it comes out, so I can test it and send in bug reports and help them fix it before its release.

Her: Shouldn't they be paying you then if you gonna be fixing it for them? (Oh Jesus, what have i done..)

Me: No, no doesn't work that way, its also a way for me to check out STO while im at it.

Her: Ok well, sounds like you know what your doing, it's just 60 dollars anyways. (correct her again, its 59.99) And I don't know why you tell me these things, (me neither) always do what you want babe, and I have to get going, i'm going to buy that beige dress we saw at Macy's yesterday for your brothers wedding..

Me: The beige one? I thought you were going to buy the blue one?

Her: Oh I am, see the store is making me buy the beige dress before I can buy the blue one....

Me: (I just drop to my knees in defeat)

Well Cryptic I hope you see what sacrifices I am making to be a part of STO, I can only hope you are doing the same, but I have every reason to believe you are. GL!

Electus


i just love the scarcasum from yer wife dude just brilliant lol

[laladiel]

no offense or anything, but it sounds more like your talking to your mom then your wife to me.

[SelorKiith]

I'll surely will play CO until STO but not with this offer... I don't have a Creditcard ^^
So I'll wait for it to hit the Stores with (hopefully) Gametime Cards

[PredatorSTO]

Well Electus,

I just hope that your wife doesn't read your topic....

[Varrangian]

Me: Darlin, i'm gonna need to put $59.99 on the credit card...

Her: Ok, whats it for?

Me: Well you know that STO game i keep talkin about?, Well If I purchase a 6 month subscription to Champions online, I get a spot in the beta.

Her: Whats Champions Online? (God I knew she was gonna ask that...)

Me: CO is another game that the makers of STO are making.

Her: So you pay for 6 months to CO and you get to play STO for free? And whats a beta? (This is where I just go ahead and turn off the left side of my brain, to minimize the pain.)

Me: Well no, the beta is just until the game comes out, then you pay for the game, then you pay a subscription to STO.

Her: So why aren't they making you buy CO? And whats a beta? (I know that's twice she has asked but i'm really really trying to avoid the explanation.)

Me: No, you do have to buy CO, if you wanna play it, ...I just have to buy the 6 months subscription to CO.

Her: (Oh how she loves to recap.) So... you are buying a 6 month subscription to a game you not gonna buy for $60 dollars (I correct her saying $59.99) then buy STO and a subscription when STO comes out? And whats a beta?

Me: (Alright, lets get this over with.) A beta is where I get to play the game before it comes out, so I can test it and send in bug reports and help them fix it before its release.

Her: Shouldn't they be paying you then if you gonna be fixing it for them? (Oh Jesus, what have i done..)

Me: No, no doesn't work that way, its also a way for me to check out STO while im at it.

Her: Ok well, sounds like you know what your doing, it's just 60 dollars anyways. (correct her again, its 59.99) And I don't know why you tell me these things, (me neither) always do what you want babe, and I have to get going, i'm going to buy that beige dress we saw at Macy's yesterday for your brothers wedding..

Me: The beige one? I thought you were going to buy the blue one?

Her: Oh I am, see the store is making me buy the beige dress before I can buy the blue one....

Me: (I just drop to my knees in defeat)

Well Cryptic I hope you see what sacrifices I am making to be a part of STO, I can only hope you are doing the same, but I have every reason to believe you are. GL!

Electus

I highlighted your problem. You are buying a spot in beta because you can't seem to wait until the game comes out.

Had you perhaps just said to your wife, "I need to drop $60 because I want to get a sneak peak at a game, but I don't want to chance that I won't get picked" it would have been far more accurate than what you've attempt to express here.

You see Cryptic isn't making you buy anything. You'll still have the same chance to get into beta and you'll by no means be prevented from buying STO when it comes out, to refute your wife analogy about the dresses.

[Tibilicus127]

Me: Darlin, i'm gonna need to put $59.99 on the credit card...

Her: Ok, whats it for?

Me: Well you know that STO game i keep talkin about?, Well If I purchase a 6 month subscription to Champions online, I get a spot in the beta.

Her: Whats Champions Online? (God I knew she was gonna ask that...)

Me: CO is another game that the makers of STO are making.

Her: So you pay for 6 months to CO and you get to play STO for free? And whats a beta? (This is where I just go ahead and turn off the left side of my brain, to minimize the pain.)

Me: Well no, the beta is just until the game comes out, then you pay for the game, then you pay a subscription to STO.

Her: So why aren't they making you buy CO? And whats a beta? (I know that's twice she has asked but i'm really really trying to avoid the explanation.)

Me: No, you do have to buy CO, if you wanna play it, ...I just have to buy the 6 months subscription to CO.

Her: (Oh how she loves to recap.) So... you are buying a 6 month subscription to a game you not gonna buy for $60 dollars (I correct her saying $59.99) then buy STO and a subscription when STO comes out? And whats a beta?

Me: (Alright, lets get this over with.) A beta is where I get to play the game before it comes out, so I can test it and send in bug reports and help them fix it before its release.

Her: Shouldn't they be paying you then if you gonna be fixing it for them? (Oh Jesus, what have i done..)

Me: No, no doesn't work that way, its also a way for me to check out STO while im at it.

Her: Ok well, sounds like you know what your doing, it's just 60 dollars anyways. (correct her again, its 59.99) And I don't know why you tell me these things, (me neither) always do what you want babe, and I have to get going, i'm going to buy that beige dress we saw at Macy's yesterday for your brothers wedding..

Me: The beige one? I thought you were going to buy the blue one?

Her: Oh I am, see the store is making me buy the beige dress before I can buy the blue one....

Me: (I just drop to my knees in defeat)

Well Cryptic I hope you see what sacrifices I am making to be a part of STO, I can only hope you are doing the same, but I have every reason to believe you are. GL!

Electus

Your Wife's logic is absolutely flawless.

[Rhyder]

I'm sure this beta will be different, I forsee lots of "input" :rolleyes:

I think the passive testers might be preferred this time :D

and hi Rhyder *waves*

I sure hope they do. ;)

How's it going KO?

Also, ya I figured it would probably be that way. Thank you for the response Loekii.

[thefrayl]

I'll definitely be playing CO, starting in a week. Then I'll see if the 6 month package is worth it. But the game does look like great fun.

[TheDart]

I've been testing CO for Quite A While now, and all I can say is, yes, yes, I am absolutely playing it when it goes live. As soon as I can afford a lifetime, I'm throwing down for it, key or no key.

Halcyon Epsilon's got a shiny sister-guild ready to go as soon as we can form it, as a matter of fact, since I appear to have tric--I MEAN, convinced, roughly 3/4ths of the fleet to play it with me. :cool:

[Ramladon]

I can't believe that Cryptic sold out. I would expect something like this from Blizzard. I had higher expectations for Cryptic though. Making people buy a game they have no interest in so they have an opportunity to beta test a game they are interested in. I am also surprised it is for closed beta and not open beta.

How are they suppose to get good feed back if you have a bunch of scrubs just wanting to play the game?
It is also going to put a lot of non mmo'ers off from the game because of all the bugs that will be in a beta. Being a Beta tester isn't about being fun it is about helping the programmers fix any bug, problems, or exploits a person can find a game.

[Varrangian]

I can't believe that Cryptic sold out. I would expect something like this from Blizzard. I had higher expectations for Cryptic though. Making people buy a game they have no interest in so they have an opportunity to beta test a game they are interested in. I am also surprised it is for closed beta and not open beta.

How are they suppose to get good feed back if you have a bunch of scrubs just wanting to play the game?
It is also going to put a lot of non mmo'ers off from the game because of all the bugs that will be in a beta. Being a Beta tester isn't about being fun it is about helping the programmers fix any bug, problems, or exploits a person can find a game.

Nope, see people who don't buy the game still have the same opportunity they had before to get into STO beta. Buying these offers just guaranteed that they would get in. It makes sense if I want to be sure I have a nice seat on a train I have to reserve a seat (putting money down), or take my chances.

[Rattletrap]

-I'll be in both for the long haul, was able to get to test C-O for a good bit before the offer hit so i didn't have to make a rash decision on the sub without playing a bit first.

Rattletrap

[DarianDrakon]

This is brilliant. Nuff said.

[Griffin]

It makes sense if I want to be sure I have a nice seat on a train I have to reserve a seat (putting money down), or take my chances.

This does make sense, but some people aren't arguing against that statement, they're arguing that they have to pay for another game in order to get that guranteed beta slot. Many of the people arguing against this would gladly pay for an STO beta, if they didn;t have to pay for CO also. That statement has been made in many of these threads.

I am against this deal. As somebody who has played CO, I already have an opinion of that game, and it's my opinion that CO doesn't deserve my money, but I, like many others on these boards, would pay money to get into STO beta, provided the deal came with something totally STO related, such as an STO lifetime sub.

[rogerwroten]

Nope, see people who don't buy the game still have the same opportunity they had before to get into STO beta. Buying these offers just guaranteed that they would get in. It makes sense if I want to be sure I have a nice seat on a train I have to reserve a seat (putting money down), or take my chances.

Here is my take on it... Using you train analogy... You are in Chicago and want a ticket to New York. The way I see what you are saying is that I need to buy a ticket to LA in order to reserve a ticket to NY. Doesn't really sound right.

Now my concern is basically the other side... Say I am a big fan of CO and not at all interested in STO. I purchase either the 6 moth sub or the life time sub. Now some of the perks I have absolutely no use for. Now if I was in that situation, I would be a little upset. I would want CO perks for buying a sub for CO.

[Cardassian_Vole]

Great read and I recognize the problem. Girlfriends/wifes can be salt on an open wound sometimes...:D

Funny thing is... If you read it with outstanders eyes, the idea is kind of goofy actually. Makes you think what we are doing...

I feel for you, good luck!

[Varrangian]

Here is my take on it... Using you train analogy... You are in Chicago and want a ticket to New York. The way I see what you are saying is that I need to buy a ticket to LA in order to reserve a ticket to NY. Doesn't really sound right.

Now my concern is basically the other side... Say I am a big fan of CO and not at all interested in STO. I purchase either the 6 moth sub or the life time sub. Now some of the perks I have absolutely no use for. Now if I was in that situation, I would be a little upset. I would want CO perks for buying a sub for CO.

No, what I am saying and this is the way trains worked the last time I used them, if you buy a ticket it gets you a seat, but if you want a better seat you actually have to reserve one or chance it and see if one open when you get on the train.

To take your analogy, you don't have to buy the CO offers to buy STO. You don't even have to buy these offer to get into STO beta, you just happened to get a reserved spot with them. Like if you had been one of the first 25 in line at the Con this weekend or won one of the contests here.

These offers do give CO perks, not just the discounts. You get a CO costume with the 6 month. You get the same CO costume with the lifetime, a second CO costume, an NPC figure, and 8 additional character slots (heck I'd buy it for the slots). That's a lot of perk without even considering the STO beta key.

[WarpVis]

There are multiple methods into the beta, The CO subscriptions merely provide a guaranteed slot. They have had contests and they have had events where additional beta slots have been given out. I am sure once they get closer that Cryptic will even provide a place on this site to sign up to be a beta tester.

All I see is sour grapes by people that begrudge the good fortune of those people that have chosen to purchase a subscription for CO.

If things go as scheduled within a year everybody that wants to play STO will have the opportunity to play STO and nobody will really care about who actually got into the Beta.

[Falin]

For this persons defense.

The practice of requiring someone to buy a product that they may or may not be interested it for access
to an unrealated product that is more popular or desirable....is unethical.

even if you like the other product and don't mind paying, it is still unethical.


I totally agree, and can not fathom why this new generation can not see this as unethical when it clearly is!

[bradley1701]

Greetings,

I purchased a liftetime sub to CO and I am looking forward to playing it! Other members of Zeta Fleet have also purchased subs to CO so we can start playing together which will help build a good team gaming foundation before STO is ready...we'll also then be able to do the closed beta together as a fleet!

[bradley1701]

I totally agree, and can not fathom why this new generation can not see this as unethical when it clearly is!

It is only unethical if they force you to make such a purchase. They are presenting you with an opportunity and people can either choose or not to choose to buy a CO sub. Some of us are looking forward to CO and have been with the forums a long time and excited about this opportunity...so we are choosing ourselves to buy a CO sub.

Again, this isn't unethical because there is CHOICE, plain and simple...for some reason, some STO fans can't get off their high horses long enough to realize that.

[Varrangian]

Well damn it, I caved in. I read the CO lifetime offer again because someone claimed it didn't offer CO players any perks for CO and I saw the additional character slots and my alt mind started running wild... CO has been a lot of fun, I've gotten a lot more time in game now and I have to admit it is addictive.

Looks like I'm picking up that second job at the library this semester :p

[Garrot]

What is CO?

[bradley1701]

Well damn it, I caved in. I read the CO lifetime offer again because someone claimed it didn't offer CO players any perks for CO and I saw the additional character slots and my alt mind started running wild... CO has been a lot of fun, I've gotten a lot more time in game now and I have to admit it is addictive.

Looks like I'm picking up that second job at the library this semester :p

hahaha It'll be good to see you in CO, Varrangian...and your seven alts hahaha

[Varrangian]

What is CO?

Champions Online.

[Falin]

It is only unethical if they force you to make such a purchase. They are presenting you with an opportunity and people can either choose or not to choose to buy a CO sub. .

That is not true, it is unethical by the very definition. Let's clarrify this, they are preying on the disires of one group to want to play/test/preview their chosen product by waving a carrot to buy another product for a large sum of cash to get that access. That have purposefully put a misleading and innacurate ad on the main page in an attempt to bait the first product group to buy the second product.

there's more to it than that, but tha is the main aspect of it, it is an unethical situation and i wish you and the rest would wake up and realize it, else you'll just end up following more enron corporations in the future.

[Varrangian]

hahaha It'll be good to see you in CO, Varrangian...and your seven alts hahaha

Yeah alts are a very bad habit of mine and with Cryptic's eye for customization I'm in serious trouble... already have some great character concepts. It'll be great to see you and play with all the STO people over there.

[bradley1701]

That is not true, it is unethical by the very definition. Let's clarrify this, they are preying on the disires of one group to want to play/test/preview their chosen product by waving a carrot to buy another product for a large sum of cash to get that access. That have purposefully put a misleading and innacurate ad on the main page in an attempt to bait the first product group to buy the second product.

there's more to it than that, but tha is the main aspect of it, it is an unethical situation and i wish you and the rest would wake up and realize it, else you'll just end up following more enron corporations in the future.

As a legal professional I can at least say that this is legally ethical and you would need to prove their intent. You have stated that they are preying on STO fans, but you have to prove that it is preying and not simply a marketing strategy. Again, it all has to be proven as a bias opinion of a situation doesn't hold much weight. Bring me some hard evidence and then we'll chat about the ethics of the situation.

[Varrangian]

That is not true, it is unethical by the very definition. Let's clarrify this, they are preying on the disires of one group to want to play/test/preview their chosen product by waving a carrot to buy another product for a large sum of cash to get that access. That have purposefully put a misleading and innacurate ad on the main page in an attempt to bait the first product group to buy the second product.

there's more to it than that, but tha is the main aspect of it, it is an unethical situation and i wish you and the rest would wake up and realize it, else you'll just end up following more enron corporations in the future.

Nothing is unethical about enticement. Enticement means that the person being enticed has freewill. Entrapment or coercion would be unethical.

There is nothing misleading or inaccurate about the ad on the front page. It says get guaranteed beta access for STO, which is what you get if you purchase either offer. If you are a mindless idiot that clicks and enters credit card information without reading all of the completely readable text, you have bigger issues than Cryptic.

[crawdad]

I'm in... I played CoH off and on as a filler and will be same thing with CO. I'm sure ill get my money's worth just as a game to mix it up a bit. And if it's awesome game all the better.

[bradley1701]

That is not true, it is unethical by the very definition. Let's clarrify this, they are preying on the disires of one group to want to play/test/preview their chosen product by waving a carrot to buy another product for a large sum of cash to get that access. That have purposefully put a misleading and innacurate ad on the main page in an attempt to bait the first product group to buy the second product.

there's more to it than that, but tha is the main aspect of it, it is an unethical situation and i wish you and the rest would wake up and realize it, else you'll just end up following more enron corporations in the future.

You also forget that they have provided FREE opportunities in the past to get beta access and are going to continue to do so...so there is a hole shot through your theory right there. If this was the only way to get beta access, then yes, it would be unethical (but really, it is just marketing strategy)...but again, there is choice and there has been and will be other opportunities that are free. Don't let your bias blind you.

[Varrangian]

You also forget that they have provided FREE opportunities in the past to get beta access and are going to continue to do so...so there is a hole shot through your theory right there. If this was the only way to get beta access, then yes, it would be unethical (but really, it is just marketing strategy)...but again, there is choice and there has been and will be other opportunities that are free. Don't let your bias blind you.

The funny thing is that the one thing that now pushed me over the edge to finally buy the offer was CO itself. I actually have little desire for the key as I was fairly confident I'd be invited into STO beta regardless.

[WarpVis]

For this persons defense.

The practice of requiring someone to buy a product that they may or may not be interested it for access
to an unrealated product that is more popular or desirable....is unethical.

even if you like the other product and don't mind paying, it is still unethical.

I totally agree, and can not fathom why this new generation can not see this as unethical when it clearly is!

First they are not offering access to a product. Beta is not a product, it is a testing period. When the game goes live and you are paying a subscription then that is a product. If the only way to get to play STO was to purchase CO then you may have had a point, but being we are not actually discussing the game but the Beta, your argument holds no water.

Second even if Cryptic were offering a package deal discount, then that would still not be unethical. It would be akin to the cable/internet/phone service bundle I and many others take advantage of to receive lower prices on services I would be purchasing anyway. I also have a similar package with my home and auto insurance. I have even stayed at hotels/motels that provide free cable and access to a pool. So if they wanted to offer a special multi-subscription bundle deal then that would be an excellent way for those that will be playing both games to reduce their costs.

Third how old do you have to be to be so senile to believe that the give-a-way of a free perk is unethical?

[Arrenhe]

I'm in :). I preordered CO on Saturday and I'm seriously considering the $60 package (and I would probably go with the lifetime membership except we just moved across country this month :P). My heart is with STO, but CO is looking more and more fun--I'm already chomping at the bit to make my own superhero.

See you there!

[praiodan]

I'll be there; was waiting for CO anyways and the discounted 6 month sub which included ST beta access was great. Seeya there!

[wrussandrews]

I will be purchasing one lifetime and will play when the mood strikes.

[wrussandrews]

Women!

Just let her know who is boss! That way she can give you your orders...

[.Spartan]

And with it being a Star Trek game the possibility of that happening is fairly high. Not trying to be a downer, I want the game to be successful, but given the track record of Star Trek games it doesn't look good.

GOOD LUCK CRYPTIC!!!

Hence my comment about doing a LT sub a big risk. I however have some faith in Cryptic so I'm willing to take the risk.

@CaptainQuirk - Your comments are on the money. I too hope the marketing people at Cryptic (maybe Atari) pay serious attention to such things.

[Electus]

no offense or anything, but it sounds more like your talking to your mom then your wife to me.

In my defense, at no time did I tug at her skirt and beg "please please please" or drop myself to the floor and spin in a circle while turning blue, thank you very much.

(Plus it doesn't work and only leads to carpet burn.... not that I ever tried it or anything)

[Esgar]

I'll see all my fellow STO guys over on CO. I don't know if I'll be getting one of the deals, but I'll be playing for sure.

[Zaydrache]

I plan on grabbing the Lifetime sub this weekend and will be on as soon as I can. Both CO and STO look like a blast and really looking forward to playing both.

[rogerwroten]

No, what I am saying and this is the way trains worked the last time I used them, if you buy a ticket it gets you a seat, but if you want a better seat you actually have to reserve one or chance it and see if one open when you get on the train.

To take your analogy, you don't have to buy the CO offers to buy STO. You don't even have to buy these offer to get into STO beta, you just happened to get a reserved spot with them. Like if you had been one of the first 25 in line at the Con this weekend or won one of the contests here.

These offers do give CO perks, not just the discounts. You get a CO costume with the 6 month. You get the same CO costume with the lifetime, a second CO costume, an NPC figure, and 8 additional character slots (heck I'd buy it for the slots). That's a lot of perk without even considering the STO beta key.

To get a reserved spot in the STO beta right now I need to buy CO. So my train example does in fact work. In order to reserve a seat on this train to NY, I have to buy something I have no interest in. This is not like ordering early, or paying more for it, I have to buy something I do not want to get it.

I realize that the STO perks are not the only perks. But I have to wonder if these STO perks were not there would they put in something else. That would be my concern. And there is really no way of knowing.

[Varrangian]

To get a reserved spot in the STO beta right now I need to buy CO. So my train example does in fact work. In order to reserve a seat on this train to NY, I have to buy something I have no interest in. This is not like ordering early, or paying more for it, I have to buy something I do not want to get it.

I realize that the STO perks are not the only perks. But I have to wonder if these STO perks were not there would they put in something else. That would be my concern. And there is really no way of knowing.

No you said, "Here is my take on it... Using you train analogy... You are in Chicago and want a ticket to New York. The way I see what you are saying is that I need to buy a ticket to LA in order to reserve a ticket to NY. Doesn't really sound right."

For CO you are getting a reserved spot in beta, not a reserved spot in the game. If you had said that you have to buy a ticket to LA in order to reserve a preview of the trip to NY that would have been more accurate.

No there is no way of knowing what they would or would not have put in had they not also been developing STO, but no one is denying their desire to entice people. We are simply arguing that that enticement is neither unethical nor is it unfair.

[Thibor]

To get a reserved spot in the STO beta right now I need to buy CO. So my train example does in fact work. In order to reserve a seat on this train to NY, I have to buy something I have no interest in. This is not like ordering early, or paying more for it, I have to buy something I do not want to get it.

I realize that the STO perks are not the only perks. But I have to wonder if these STO perks were not there would they put in something else. That would be my concern. And there is really no way of knowing.

No, it's more like you're going on vacation and 8 weeks out you buy a pair of 1st class plane tickets On Expedia.com to your destination.
We'll call that the CO-PreOrder

Another person going to the same destination uses their airline points to upgrade to 1st class 4 weeks later on Travelocity.
We'll call that the potential FilePlanet subscriber into beta

Some others flying 1st class opt to buy direct from the airline's site.
We'll cal lthem the People who make it due to their forum presence.

And then, 30 minutes before the flight, a couple lucky people within earshot of the gate checkin desk hear their still room in 1st class so inquire and get bumped up.
We'll call them the lucky contest winners of a beta slot.

And then there's everyone flying in coach.
We'll call them the Open beta/Stress test folks.


Or, long story short, your train analogy of "having to buy" fails because buying the CO pre-order will not be the only way of getting into STO beta.

[sebcook]

This sounds like a really good idea.

I've pre-ordered CO and have the 6 month sub already done.

Bring it on!

[cipher_nemo]

No, it's more (...)

I think you just made an even more complex comparison, lol. The offer is much simpler to understand and make judgements/develop opinions about it as is.

[bradley1701]

I don't think it matters what analogy people use...it is irrelevant to the fact that:

1.) This is in fact (legally) ethical. You have a choice in the matter and Cryptic has provided and will likely continue to provide free ways of gaining beta access. Some fans have looked at this particular advertisement and there was an immediate knee-jerk reaction without them looking at the facts to-date and what is likely to continue to happen. Some responses were emotional and bias either based on the fact that they don't want to play CO or can't afford the subs. This is one piece of an overall marketing strategy and those of us who have been STO fans for a long time and who wish to play CO are quite excited by this opportunity which Cryptic has so graciously given us; and

2.) This is for BETA. This is not the final product...people are talking about the beta like it is the end product when it is not. Remember the days when beta of games were not accessible to joe public's? Certainly non-MMO games still are. Being a part of Beta is an added privelege and not a right. Some fans in this forum are behaving as though it is a right. Be happy that beta is even being made available to joe public's like us!

[Jaymz]

Argh... servers down... going through withdrawal...

So... are we thinking about official fleet colors? costumes? names?

[Peregrine_Falcon]

There is absolutely nothing about this that is in any way shape or form illegal or unethical in the United States of America. (I feel it necessary to make this distinction because I know that some of you aren't in the US)

In fact in the USA you see this kind of thing every single day. Buy two, get one free. Supersize one meal and you get to supersize the second one for free. Buy 3 or more of this and we'll throw in a free T-Shirt. I saw one bank in Texas that was giving away a free gun to anyone that opened a new bank account with them.

There is absolutely nothing illegal or unethical about this practice. If there was half the retailers in America would get arrested. If you believe that it is illegal or unethical it's because you either don't know what you're talking about or it's because you are insane.

I'm sorry that you're all bent out of shape because you can't afford the $200 for the uniform and STO beta access. May I respectfully recommend that you get a job?

[Blackavaar]

I alread secured myself a beta spot (I was one of the first 25 at the Meet & Greet this weekend) but I'm already planning on giving CO a go as well. I might even pony up for the Lifetime sub depending on how good it looks in Open Beta ( I definitely will get a Lifetime sub for STO, if they offer it). Then I won't have to worry about paying for multiple subscriptions at once.

:D

[DarkOrion69]

Real, brilliant, a little scary, and LOL :D

[SamFred81]

I'll be there! I've been looking foward to Champions for a long time. The STO beta with the pre-order is just icing on the cake.

[Powercrisis]

props on marrying a smart woman.

[Angelphoenix12]

i plan to play co, when i cant stand city of for that day. ill also be playing it when sto comes out. so i can take breaks :)..

[dyvimtorm]

Thanks, that was a great laugh. Until I realized I had the same discussion :p

[IIntrude]

I will be in, Probably playing an Ice "controller."

[Jaymz]

wow, I really cant believe you are paying 60 only to play the beta, and not buying CO itself to play. I mean, come on, your basicly buying a game, for that much, but wait, only an incomplete game you can only play for a few months....

Well, he DID buy a 6-month subscription, and that basically MEANS only being able to play for a few months. In this case he will only be playing the ST:O for a few months. :p

edit - hold on there, how did i get here? looks like this topic has gone bananas, apparently a lot of topics have been moved into it.

[Cardassian_Vole]

Well, he DID buy a 6-month subscription, and that basically MEANS only being able to play for a few months. In this case he will only be playing the ST:O for a few months. :p

edit - hold on there, how did i get here? looks like this topic has gone bananas, apparently a lot of topics have been moved into it.
I'm lost as well... Didnt I post in a different thread?

[Jaymz]

I'm lost as well... Didnt I post in a different thread?

Oh no, this must be the Mirror Thread. We need Miles to get us back. I hope he is around here somewhere, or at least the guy with an Avatar of him is.

[Cardassian_Vole]

Oh no, this must be the Mirror Thread. We need Miles to get us back. I hope he is around here somewhere, or at least the guy with an Avatar of him is.
I wonder how Mirror Vole looks like? :D

[Vicelance]

I personally bought the lifetime for Champions since I have been eagerly waiting it's release since I played COH for the 14 day free trial a year ago. I decided to buy the lifetime sub before even reading the perks. The $200 price was a good enough deal to entice me to purchase.

As for the Beta spot in STO it's a nice extra but at the moment CO is more interesting to me, I still need to hear more on the Genesis system and exploration before I decide to get STO.

[JoJimGregory]

And incidentally, "not nearly as bad as many have feared" as far as I am concerned is bad enough.

Oh, believe me, I've posted VEHEMENTLY against Micro Transactions for in-game items of any kind in a monthly subscription based game. Do a search if you doubt my conviction on the issue. In fact, I've probably been snarky enough about it to damage any chance for a beta invite, but that's okay. I'm not quite sure I really want to do another beta for two simple reasons...


It's work which I take very seriously, and I'm not sure I'll have the time.
It can spoil the initial excitement of playing a new game on launch day.

Believe it or not, I even quit my volunteer work as a Game Guide in Everquest just before the Kunark expansion launched because I did not want to be able to run around and see everything ahead of time. I wanted to experience the fun of discovery on a new continent of unknown potentials.

[Rota]

Me: Darlin, i'm gonna need to put $59.99 on the credit card...

Her: Ok, whats it for?

Me: Well you know that STO game i keep talkin about?, Well If I purchase a 6 month subscription to Champions online, I get a spot in the beta.

Her: Whats Champions Online? (God I knew she was gonna ask that...)

Me: CO is another game that the makers of STO are making.

Her: So you pay for 6 months to CO and you get to play STO for free? And whats a beta? (This is where I just go ahead and turn off the left side of my brain, to minimize the pain.)

Me: Well no, the beta is just until the game comes out, then you pay for the game, then you pay a subscription to STO.

Her: So why aren't they making you buy CO? And whats a beta? (I know that's twice she has asked but i'm really really trying to avoid the explanation.)

Me: No, you do have to buy CO, if you wanna play it, ...I just have to buy the 6 months subscription to CO.

Her: (Oh how she loves to recap.) So... you are buying a 6 month subscription to a game you not gonna buy for $60 dollars (I correct her saying $59.99) then buy STO and a subscription when STO comes out? And whats a beta?

Me: (Alright, lets get this over with.) A beta is where I get to play the game before it comes out, so I can test it and send in bug reports and help them fix it before its release.

Her: Shouldn't they be paying you then if you gonna be fixing it for them? (Oh Jesus, what have i done..)

Me: No, no doesn't work that way, its also a way for me to check out STO while im at it.

Her: Ok well, sounds like you know what your doing, it's just 60 dollars anyways. (correct her again, its 59.99) And I don't know why you tell me these things, (me neither) always do what you want babe, and I have to get going, i'm going to buy that beige dress we saw at Macy's yesterday for your brothers wedding..

Me: The beige one? I thought you were going to buy the blue one?

Her: Oh I am, see the store is making me buy the beige dress before I can buy the blue one....

Me: (I just drop to my knees in defeat)

Well Cryptic I hope you see what sacrifices I am making to be a part of STO, I can only hope you are doing the same, but I have every reason to believe you are. GL!

Electus

This did not deserve to get merged (buried) into this thread. it was a lone humorous story about obtaining the beta.

[sgtinvincible]

ROFLMAO, and yes, mine went almost as bad.

[Electus]

This did not deserve to get merged (buried) into this thread. it was a lone humorous story about obtaining the beta.


Yep, and thanks. Seems my apple got thrown in a basket of oranges....ole well.

[Electus]

ROFLMAO, and yes, mine went almost as bad.

HeHe cool, believe me mate, we are not alone.

[Mysticone622]

Sunday night there was a thread for CO/STO players that were going to play CO before/during the release of STO that was deleteed or moved into this messy thread. I have gotten with the guy that made the thread but we have lost all other names that signed up

here is a link to the new fleet/league thread I made to replace that thread

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=692119#post692119

[nennafir]

It's funny how everyone here assumes that this is some foul ploy to get STO players to support CO.

It just goes to show about "rose colored glasses."

If anything, I suspect it is an attempt to get existing CO players (who, after all, are the main ones who are going to be seeing these adverts...not some people on a board for a game that hasn't even reached beta but people who have preordered a game that is coming out soon) to look into STO as another game they might be interested in.

Face it, over all it is an attempt to get people who are interested in SOME Cryptic product to be interested in ANOTHER Cryptic product. It seems like a perfectly fine marketing move.

[overlordthor]

Me: Darlin, i'm gonna need to put $59.99 on the credit card...

Her: Ok, whats it for?

Me: Well you know that STO game i keep talkin about?, Well If I purchase a 6 month subscription to Champions online, I get a spot in the beta.

Her: Whats Champions Online? (God I knew she was gonna ask that...)

Me: CO is another game that the makers of STO are making.

Her: So you pay for 6 months to CO and you get to play STO for free? And whats a beta? (This is where I just go ahead and turn off the left side of my brain, to minimize the pain.)

Me: Well no, the beta is just until the game comes out, then you pay for the game, then you pay a subscription to STO.

Her: So why aren't they making you buy CO? And whats a beta? (I know that's twice she has asked but i'm really really trying to avoid the explanation.)

Me: No, you do have to buy CO, if you wanna play it, ...I just have to buy the 6 months subscription to CO.

Her: (Oh how she loves to recap.) So... you are buying a 6 month subscription to a game you not gonna buy for $60 dollars (I correct her saying $59.99) then buy STO and a subscription when STO comes out? And whats a beta?

Me: (Alright, lets get this over with.) A beta is where I get to play the game before it comes out, so I can test it and send in bug reports and help them fix it before its release.

Her: Shouldn't they be paying you then if you gonna be fixing it for them? (Oh Jesus, what have i done..)

Me: No, no doesn't work that way, its also a way for me to check out STO while im at it.

Her: Ok well, sounds like you know what your doing, it's just 60 dollars anyways. (correct her again, its 59.99) And I don't know why you tell me these things, (me neither) always do what you want babe, and I have to get going, i'm going to buy that beige dress we saw at Macy's yesterday for your brothers wedding..

Me: The beige one? I thought you were going to buy the blue one?

Her: Oh I am, see the store is making me buy the beige dress before I can buy the blue one....

Me: (I just drop to my knees in defeat)

Well Cryptic I hope you see what sacrifices I am making to be a part of STO, I can only hope you are doing the same, but I have every reason to believe you are. GL!

Electus

Funny that this merged since you arent playing CO , and are just willing to buy a game to play a beta, out of desperation.

[Electus]

Funny that this merged since you arent playing CO , and are just willing to buy a game to play a beta, out of desperation.

desperation - a state in which all hope is lost or absent.

Damn bro, obviously you missed the point of the post. But that's ok, I don't mind guiding you along....

Now stay with me....

Was my motivation for supporting CO getting a guaranteed a spot on the STO beta...YES

Was it a good marketing "ploy"...(don't think it was a ploy)...YES

Was it out of desperation?...NO. My desperation is reserved for remembering anniversaries and sending kids to college. This I did for me.

Am I going to play CO now that I have bought some game time...YES

Did I deserve to get my balls busted for buying something that doesn't even exist yet?...Absolutely Yes.

Would have I been ok with my wife buying two outrageously overpriced dresses from Macy's with her only getting a IOU for them?....OH *&^% NO.

But you are correct on one point...apples and oranges.

Electus out.

[overlordthor]

desperation - a state in which all hope is lost or absent.

Damn bro, obviously you missed the point of the post. But that's ok, I don't mind guiding you along....

Now stay with me....

Was my motivation for supporting CO getting a guaranteed a spot on the STO beta...YES

Was it a good marketing "ploy"...(don't think it was a ploy)...YES

Am I going to play CO now that I have bought some game time...YES

Did I deserve to get my balls busted for buying something that doesn't even exist yet?...Absolutely Yes.

Would have I been ok with my wife buying two outrageously overpriced dresses from Macy's with her only getting a IOU for them?....OH *&^% NO.

Just because Cryptic merged the threads, don't do the same...apples and oranges.

Electus out.

Well, I dont have a problem if you are playing CO but the first one basically stated you were just getting the six month preorder or you'd be paying for a lot more, over $100USD in the long run including the box and the 6 months.

I think its funny that it seems like people are buying the preorder, only to play the beta, and not playing CO because STO ias just a beta.

[Electus]

Well, I dont have a problem if you are playing CO but the first one basically stated you were just getting the six month preorder or you'd be paying for a lot more, over $100USD in the long run including the box and the 6 months.

I think its funny that it seems like people are buying the preorder, only to play the beta, and not playing CO because STO ias just a beta.

No your right, you got me there, but since I bought the game time it only took me like 12hrs to decide to try CO....remember, I had to shut down part of my brain 10 mins into the conversation with a non gamer :)

Lets just hope Cryptics enthusiasm for CO is motivated by an excellent MMO ...and another one just around the corner.

Cheers Mate

Electus out.

[HailingFrequencyZach]

Classic! Truly truly hilarious!

Me: Darlin, i'm gonna need to put $59.99 on the credit card...

Her: Ok, whats it for?

Me: Well you know that STO game i keep talkin about?, Well If I purchase a 6 month subscription to Champions online, I get a spot in the beta.

Her: Whats Champions Online? (God I knew she was gonna ask that...)

Me: CO is another game that the makers of STO are making.

Her: So you pay for 6 months to CO and you get to play STO for free? And whats a beta? (This is where I just go ahead and turn off the left side of my brain, to minimize the pain.)

Me: Well no, the beta is just until the game comes out, then you pay for the game, then you pay a subscription to STO.

Her: So why aren't they making you buy CO? And whats a beta? (I know that's twice she has asked but i'm really really trying to avoid the explanation.)

Me: No, you do have to buy CO, if you wanna play it, ...I just have to buy the 6 months subscription to CO.

Her: (Oh how she loves to recap.) So... you are buying a 6 month subscription to a game you not gonna buy for $60 dollars (I correct her saying $59.99) then buy STO and a subscription when STO comes out? And whats a beta?

Me: (Alright, lets get this over with.) A beta is where I get to play the game before it comes out, so I can test it and send in bug reports and help them fix it before its release.

Her: Shouldn't they be paying you then if you gonna be fixing it for them? (Oh Jesus, what have i done..)

Me: No, no doesn't work that way, its also a way for me to check out STO while im at it.

Her: Ok well, sounds like you know what your doing, it's just 60 dollars anyways. (correct her again, its 59.99) And I don't know why you tell me these things, (me neither) always do what you want babe, and I have to get going, i'm going to buy that beige dress we saw at Macy's yesterday for your brothers wedding..

Me: The beige one? I thought you were going to buy the blue one?

Her: Oh I am, see the store is making me buy the beige dress before I can buy the blue one....

Me: (I just drop to my knees in defeat)

Well Cryptic I hope you see what sacrifices I am making to be a part of STO, I can only hope you are doing the same, but I have every reason to believe you are. GL!

Electus

[Colm]

Shouldn't this thread be relocated in the "Non-STO Discussion" forums ?

[Peregrine_Falcon]

Shouldn't this thread be relocated in the "Non-STO Discussion" forums ?
You do realize that this thread is about STO right?

To be more specific it's two threads that were merged by the moderators. One about paying for CO to get into STO beta. The second about a guy who tried to explain to his wife about the charge he put on their card to get into STO beta.

So I guess you're right. Since this thread isn't about STO it should be moved to the Non-STO forums. Oh wait! It is about STO! I guess what they say is true: reading really is fundemental.

[Colm]

You do realize that this thread is about STO right?

To be more specific it's two threads that were merged by the moderators. One about paying for CO to get into STO beta. The second about a guy who tried to explain to his wife about the charge he put on their card to get into STO beta.

So I guess you're right. Since this thread isn't about STO it should be moved to the Non-STO forums. Oh wait! It is about STO! I guess what they say is true: reading really is fundemental.

The relation between CO and STO isn't STO forum material, IMO. Sorry if your opinion differs.
No need to get angry about it.

[Peregrine_Falcon]

The relation between CO and STO isn't STO forum material, IMO. Sorry if your opinion differs.
No need to get angry about it.
1) I'm not angry.

2) This thread is about STO beta access. How is that not about STO?

[alucard1]

Your marketing team just showed their true colors. The last thing I want to hear is that I have to be blackmailed into another game to help test STO. If heroes isnt good enough to get its own subs then dont force me to play it just to get a sneak preview of the game I want to play. This shows nothing but realy bad faith in both products and the marketing teams ability to come up with creative ways to get people to play.

Strike one....Microtransactions

Strike two...Blackmailing Beta testers by forcing them to play another game for months

Strike three..and I am out of here...forever.

I see posts like this a lot, and it really does confuse me.

I plan on getting the CO Lifetime Sub..

First, because I like the idea of a guaranteed beta spot. I've done betas for a few other games, two of them being CoH and CoV. Second, I like the 'goodies' you get for STO with the LTS. To be honest, I don't have a great interest in CO... I've been playing CoH for five years now.. have a lot of nice Vet Rewards going on, and... with Rogue coming out.. well, lets say I still have interest there...

However... money can be tight on occasion... and seeing that CoH was originally manned by Crptic I figure CO will be at least similar to CoH ... and for times when I may not want to spend the cash on my gaming subs, I can always go to CO.. because its gonna be paid for. The $200 works out to thirteen months of gaming time, I find that reasonable, ESPECIALLY with all the perks that comes with it. Add to that. that I have hopes that they will also offer STO with a LFT, and I'll be golden for both games... :D

As has been stated numerous times.. no one is FORCING anyone to get CO for anything related to STO. It's a nice promotion that they are offering... one that I figure a lot of people are going to be taking advantage of.

If you don't like it.. don't do it. If you feel that the behavior is SO disgusting that you feel that you have to make a ****y post, and "leave in a huff" ... Well... Bye...

Saith

[Peregrine_Falcon]

I see posts like this a lot, and it really does confuse me.
There are a lot of people on the internet that think that they should get stuff for free.

I saw this a lot on the City of Heroes/Villains forums when they first announced their microtransaction costume theme packs. Overnight tons of people posted how they were quiting the game because the "evil microtransaction" had entered their game. When pressed (by myself and others) to explain in logical rational terms just how microtransactions are evil, they were unable to explain it.

This desire for free stuff is why people continue to hack and crack and download free versions of games. Because they don't want to pay full price. Also a lot of stuff on the internet is free so a lot of people have come to expect that everything they want will be free of charge.

The facts are: This is not unethical, not illegal, and it's non-fattening. No one is forcing you to purchase this product. If you don't purchase it you may still end up in closed beta.

Another thing while I'm rambling; you guys do realize that beta is for testing right? I've seen beta tests that kicked people out because they were busy playing and not sending in any bug reports. Also when the game goes live the database is usually wiped, so you probably won't be able to bring your Admiral or already established starbase / battleship / whatever to the live servers.

[Cardassian_Vole]

There are a lot of people on the internet that think that they should get stuff for free.

But I want everything for free!!! :D

(Before you turn your turrets against me, I was joking :o)

[Jaymz]

When pressed (by myself and others) to explain in logical rational terms just how microtransactions are evil, they were unable to explain it.

The facts are: This is not unethical, not illegal, and it's non-fattening. No one is forcing you to purchase this product. If you don't purchase it you may still end up in closed beta.



Lets pretend that for ST:O, you would be required to pay $5 in order to level up (on top of the usual game price, monthly subscriptions and other silly MTs). And don't worry, this won't affect balancing, you can't PVP with people not on your level. Actually, you can't PVP with people on your level as well, unless you pay another $5.

Could you explain, using logical and rational terms, how that would be evil, unethical and illegal?

No. It's a business, they are allowed to do whatever they want with their product. nobody is holding a gun to your head and blah blah blah. If you expect to be able to level up or PVP without paying then you simply want everything for free.

What a load of...

Bottom line is, you used to buy a game for a set price and get everything included. Then they decided we have to pay monthly, effectively re-buying the game every 3 months even though we usually get no new content in those 3 months, and if we do, it certainly doesn't measure to another full game. But yeah, it's an MMO after all, meaning we have to pay the devs for the entire first year or so just to get rid of all the bugs that are in every MMO release.

MTs are just plain stupid. I paid full price for the game, I pay monthly, and if they don't feel like giving me that extra item or two then I would prefer they don't bother creating it at all. Keep it a levelled playing field. It's either everything or nothing, no changing the rules every time you feel like it in order to make an extra buck.

And you are right, it's not unethical, its not evil. It's just plain wrong. I'm tiered of MMOs setting lower standards for each other.

[Cardassian_Vole]

Bottom line is, you used to buy a game for a set price and get everything included. Then they decided we have to pay monthly, effectively re-buying the game every 3 months even though we usually get no new content in those 3 months, and if we do, it certainly doesn't measure to another full game. But yeah, it's an MMO after all, meaning we have to pay the devs for the entire first year or so just to get rid of all the bugs that are in every MMO release.

You're saying it yourself here: It's an MMO, it's different from a computergame solely for your pc and your own gaming experience. Those were the ones you bought for a single price.

MTs are just plain stupid. I paid full price for the game, I pay monthly, and if they don't feel like giving me that extra item or two then I would prefer they don't bother creating it at all. Keep it a levelled playing field. It's either everything or nothing, no changing the rules every time you feel like it in order to make an extra buck.

So this means you're complaining about the extras you buy for your car as well? MT's are nothing more than paying for extra luxury. This is how the world works. At least in the West. In the old Communist states you could get everything, and it was all evenly crappy. Be glad there are MMO's.

[cipher_nemo]

MTs are just plain stupid. I paid full price for the game, I pay monthly, and if they don't feel like giving me that extra item or two then I would prefer they don't bother creating it at all. Keep it a levelled playing field. It's either everything or nothing, no changing the rules every time you feel like it in order to make an extra buck.

I hope you've read about how they plan to implement MTs? I doubt you'd be able to purchase levels or other accomplishments. And Cryptic already mentioned that anything purchased through the MT system that had an in-game effect would also be available for free in-game (though you'd have to work to get it).

This is an old debate, but I still fail to see what people are so concerned about it. There would be a reason to be concerned if Cryptic was planning to grow MT to cover accomplishments, levels, etc. in-game.

[cipher_nemo]

This is how the world works. At least in the West. In the old Communist states you could get everything, and it was all evenly crappy. Be glad there are MMO's.

Very true. :) Winston and the rest of the world knew this all too well last millennium:

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.

[Jaymz]

So this means you're complaining about the extras you buy for your car as well? MT's are nothing more than paying for extra luxury. This is how the world works. At least in the West. In the old Communist states you could get everything, and it was all evenly crappy. Be glad there are MMO's.

Actually, I didn't say it and I'm getting tiered of saying it or hearing it. Yes, it's an MMO, and MMOs keep shrinking the game world, and with instancing/shard-ing you end up playing with about as many people as you would in any standard game. Yet we keep paying the same price, how long will we keep hearing the same excuse?


So this means you're complaining about the extras you buy for your car as well? MT's are nothing more than paying for extra luxury. This is how the world works. At least in the West. In the old Communist states you could get everything, and it was all evenly crappy. Be glad there are MMO's.

Argh, enough with the silly, totally unrelated, comparissions. But you know what? If I were to pay my car manufacturer monthly after paying full price for my car, I would very damn well expect them to give me a free air freshener or something every now and then.

But if you want to compare, fine, let's compare. But lets keep it inside the big happy MMO family. So that maybe for ONCE in this over bloated topic, there would be one honest comparison and not all this car/cracker jack box/ etc.... nonsense.

For you see, when Blizzard (yes, I said the B word) updated World of Warcraft (yes, I said the W word with the o word and the other W world) with the Argent Tournament, which means a new (very small) location on the world map with a cool PVE/PVP mini-game and an award system for new items and mounts then they did it for FREE. They didn't freakin' charge you for any of it. And last time I checked, Blizzard was from the good ol' capitalist west. Could it be that Blizzard came up with a new and unheard of way of keeping their costumers and thus make a lot of money? Could it be something along the lines of respecting the costumer instead of trying to weasel him out of every single dollar he has?

Oh, and where did all this "pay a buck to get an extra item" come from anyway? oh, that's right, it came from all those F2P Asian MMOs, last time I checked, Asia was to the pretty far East. damn commies!

@cipher_nemo, yes, I know it wont affect gameplay. I still think that for paying monthly they could easily give that item for EVERYONE and not just people who pay more. Again, it's been done before and it's time MMOs stop lowering the bar on these things.

[Pest]

Half empty, half full?

The choice is yours,, its not in "bad taste" it is a marketing plan.

This way of selecting beta testers is no better or worse than the normal "wait and see who gets selected" method.

I am somewhat curious about CO, I may or may not buy it when it launches, I played a little bit of City of Heroes and that game had some very good things in it, although I am still mourning the cancellation of Marvel Universe Online(or whatever it was they were going to call it).

Also, I have never Beta tested a game and would like to see what that experience is like, so who knows, maybe it would be a great deal for me.

Mostly I am keeping my fingers crossed in the hope that Cryptic makes STO a great game.:D

[Cardassian_Vole]

Jaymz, thank you for your contribution. It's not entirely accurate (Far East totaly communist? China, Vietnam and Noth-Korea aren't the entire Far East), but you have nice arguments.

Fact is, Cryptic isn't going to change. I agree with them, but that's not the point I want to give in this post. They made up their mind and they are the ones developing the game. Pay up, or go to another MMO. You mentioned WoW. That's a beautiful game. Perhaps SW The Old Republic is something for you?

[Jaymz]

Jaymz, thank you for your contribution. It's not entirely accurate (Far East totaly communist? China, Vietnam and Noth-Korea aren't the entire Far East), but you have nice arguments.

Fact is, Cryptic isn't going to change. I agree with them, but that's not the point I want to give in this post. They made up their mind and they are the ones developing the game. Pay up, or go to another MMO. You mentioned WoW. That's a beautiful game. Perhaps SW The Old Republic is something for you?

I knew I wouldn't be able to mention WoW without someone suggesting I go back to it. You know it doesn't make your argument any stronger or mine any weaker, so why do it?

And no, Cryptic won't change while 9 out of 10 people here keep this "nobody is holding a gun to your head" attitude cause they are too busy ass kissing for a place in the beta instead of saying how they really feel about it.

Either way, them changing or not doesn't change how I feel about it. And maybe I'm an optimist cause I'm hoping they would look at the best example around on how to treat a paying costumer and decide to do even better instead of going the MT route.

[cipher_nemo]

I knew I wouldn't be able to mention WoW without someone suggesting I go back to it.

lol... Unfortunately, that seems to be the weak argument de-facto these days.

[Peregrine_Falcon]

And no, Cryptic won't change while 9 out of 10 people here keep this "nobody is holding a gun to your head" attitude cause they are too busy ass kissing for a place in the beta instead of saying how they really feel about it.
Well I'm certainly not kissing anyone's anything. That's not the problem here. The problem here is that your analogy is flat out wrong.

The MTs are only going to be for non-essential items. A Cryptic dev has already said that. There won't be any $5 to level up or any of that nonsense. That would be stupid because it would drive players away. I'm betting that the devs are aware of this.

So bottom line: MTs are not illegal, unethical or amoral. But if you don't like them then don't use them.

[Cardassian_Vole]

Jaymz, I'll wish you all the pleasure and fun you want. I had a weak moment and responded in a serious tone, but I regret it already. We all come here to have fun, for some it's debating the finer lines of the game, for others it's RP'ing and goofing around. I belong to the latter. I don't have the energy to put this amount of time in something like a phantasy or/and game. Just disregard what I've said. I'm moving along.

EDIT: by the way, did you answer the topic of the thread? Are you going to play CO?

[Varrangian]

And no, Cryptic won't change while 9 out of 10 people here keep this "nobody is holding a gun to your head" attitude cause they are too busy ass kissing for a place in the beta instead of saying how they really feel about it.

I mean this will all due respect, but when you find that the odds are stacked in such away, perhaps it is time to reflect on what makes your opinion different from theirs. This is not to say your opinion is wrong it can't be, but that perhaps they are not as misguided as you believe in their opinions.

Furthermore implying that people disagree with you because they are "arse-kissers" is not the best way to ensure that your debates on the forum will be mature. It rightfully makes people feel like you have no intention of listening to their opinions and just want to be contrary.

[Jaymz]

Well I'm certainly not kissing anyone's anything. That's not the problem here. The problem here is that your analogy is flat out wrong.

The MTs are only going to be for non-essential items. A Cryptic dev has already said that. There won't be any $5 to level up or any of that nonsense. That would be stupid because it would drive players away. I'm betting that the devs are aware of this.

So bottom line: MTs are not illegal, unethical or amoral. But if you don't like them then don't use them.

My analogy was picture perfect. It's irrelevant whether players would run off or not. I'm asking you to give me a "logical and rational" explanation on how it would be evil or immoral or illegal for them to charge for any little thing they feel like, from levelling to PVP. And you can't, though I'm sure you would consider it to be wrong of them. So why is it that you consider the fact that we can't either to be such a strong argument for Micro Transactions?

This is not a legal issue or a moral one, all I can do is point out how company A treats paying costumers, how company B treats paying costumers and let you reach your own conclusions on the subject of added content for people who are already re-buying the game every 3 months. I consider the older standard to be the norm. It's up to you to explain why we shouldn't be bothered by the lowering of it.

@Cardassian_Vole, I didn't take offence by anything you said, if that's what got you worried, you have no need to regret anything that you say. I welcome people speaking their mind since it's what I enjoy doing myself. I hope to see you in space when the game is out. goofing around sounds good to me.

I mean this will all due respect, but when you find that the odds are stacked in such away, perhaps it is time to reflect on what makes your opinion different from theirs. This is not to say your opinion is wrong it can't be, but that perhaps they are not as misguided as you believe in their opinions.

Furthermore implying that people disagree with you because they are "arse-kissers" is not the best way to ensure that your debates on the forum will be mature. It rightfully makes people feel like you have no intention of listening to their opinions and just want to be contrary.

I think that it's reasonable to find that most people would be against anything that would be perceived as a negative comment on a game, in the said game forum. But I don't think this in itself makes me correct.

Also, as I stated, I don't think the odds are stacked against me at all, I think that most people agree with me, even if they don't say as much because they feel a certain loyalty to the franchise and thus everything that is even remotely related to it. And, also, as I may have stated a bit harshly (I apologize), they might be interested in not expressing such views as would irritate those with power to make sure they never see the beta.

I mean, is there one person here who could look at what Blizzard subscribers get and honestly tell me that the thought of having to pay for so much less doesn't bother him at all?

[Peregrine_Falcon]

This is not a legal issue or a moral one, all I can do is point out how company A treats paying costumers, how company B treats paying costumers and let you reach your own conclusions on the subject of added content for people who are already re-buying the game every 3 months. I consider the older standard to be the norm. It's up to you to explain why we shouldn't be bothered by the lowering of it.
Oh ok. I misunderstood what you were asking me then.

The answer is that it would not be immoral or unethical or illegal or evil for Cryptic to charge a monthly subscription and also charge you a microtransaction for every little thing.

You want to be promoted to Lieutenant Commander now? That'll be five dollars please. Get a larger class of ship? $5 Replacement crew? $5 Another bridge officer? $5 Advanced Tactical Training School to raise your character's skill level? $5 Dress uniforms? $5 A hot Yeoman for your Captain? $5 More Photon Torpedoes? $5

Yes, they could do that. I find it highly unlikely that they will. Because they would lose a lot of customers if they tried that nonsense. If I see any indication that they will go that far I'll probably become one of the angriest forum trolls you've ever seen, at least until they ban me.

However a developer has already stated that they are not going to do that. And while I am open to the possibility that he was lying I'll will have to see that happen before I will get upset. You on the otherhand seem to have just jumped all the way from zero to OMFG!!!!! They're gonna nickle and dime us to death!!!!1111one!!11eleventyone!11

I think that it's reasonable to find that most people would be against anything that would be perceived as a negative comment on a game, in the said game forum.
I don't know about most. In many game forums I see a lot of people that are angry about something that the devs have done. It's just that right now I find myself unable to get upset about anything in this game because we haven't seen the game yet. I just think that people should save their mad for when they can actually see the game. Right now you're upset about something that hasn't happened, that we do not know will happen, and that a dev has already said will not happen.

[SamFred81]

How is it more generous to reward person A over person B (when person A has more faith in you) than it is to reward both of them?

Again, i don't comprehend the reason you guys are going through all this mental gymnastics trying to make this seem like a righteous and kind thing being done by Atari. I'm not saying they are the devil, I, like you, understand that it's all business. I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with people going out of their way trying to make it for more than it really is - a marketing ploy (not a big problem, mind you, i still love all y'all).

And yes, you could possibly make an educated guess on whether you would enjoy a game for 6 months, or a life time, after playing it for about 2 weeks. Then again, why should you? What if you feel like moving on after 3 months? What if you are forced to move on because the game ends up like Hellgate: London and Tabula Rasa? Could you see THAT one coming within 15 days, before the game has even been released? Cause that's when you are expected to pay for a life time subscription.

And yes, nobody is forcing you. It's all about risk vs. reward and the house always wins. For every one satisfied 6-month subscriber (and i don't doubt they are satisfied), there are five 6-month subscribers who left the game early. And those more than covered for what little money was lost by Atari for offering such a deal. And it might be condescending of me to suggest that those five people don't know how to spend their money, but it's a fact. And it's the reason why such an offer even exists.

We all see the logic behind the subscriptions, we all see the logic behind ending the offer on release day. Why do some of us try to make it sound like it's being done out of care for us?

I beta tested both of those games and was not impressed enough to buy them. I pre-ordered CO because I enjoyed CoH very much and CO looks like it will be even better. If I enjoy it, I'll gladly take advantage of the discounted rate and lay down the $60 for six months.

This offer is a perk for supporting Cryptic's other game, nothing more, nothing less. If you do not wish to support CO, it's certainly your right not to do so. Please don't get our capes and spandex sticky with all that Hateorade you're spewing out though.

[Jaymz]

The answer is that it would not be immoral or unethical or illegal or evil for Cryptic to charge a monthly subscription and also charge you a microtransaction for every little thing.

You want to be promoted to Lieutenant Commander now? That'll be five dollars please. Get a larger class of ship? $5 Replacement crew? $5 Another bridge officer? $5 Advanced Tactical Training School to raise your character's skill level? $5 Dress uniforms? $5 A hot Yeoman for your Captain? $5 More Photon Torpedoes? $5


(I'm assuming you meant to say that it WOULD be immoral and...)

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your problem with this. You are paying monthly because "it's an MMO", what does it have to do with levelling? Nobody is forcing you to Level. Nobody is forcing you to get a larger ship.

If you don't want it, don't buy it. There is nothing illegal or unethical or evil about it. It's their game, they can do what they want with it, nobody is holding a gun to your head. If you don't like it, go back to WoW. Sounds to me like you are one of those people who like getting everything for free. (I must admit that I'm enjoying being on this side of the argument).


However a developer has already stated that they are not going to do that. And while I am open to the possibility that he was lying I'll will have to see that happen before I will get upset. You on the otherhand seem to have just jumped all the way from zero to OMFG!!!!! They're gonna nickle and dime us to death!!!!1111one!!11eleventyone!11

I don't think they will do this either. Again, my example was just to show you that the argument of "nobody is forcing you" and "you like everything to be free" could be used to justify just about anything and so doesn't prove me wrong in any way.


I don't know about most. In many game forums I see a lot of people that are angry about something that the devs have done. It's just that right now I find myself unable to get upset about anything in this game because we haven't seen the game yet. I just think that people should save their mad for when they can actually see the game. Right now you're upset about something that hasn't happened, that we do not know will happen, and that a dev has already said will not happen.

I'm not upset with anything in the game either. I don't think the decision to go MTs has anything to do with the game or the development team behind it. My anger is directed at marketing or publishing or whoever decided to go this route. Again, I think that you are automatically going against my opinion, as most here do, because you think it is directed at the game.

I'm looking forward to the game just as much as the next guy, our disagreement has nothing to do with Star Trek: Online.

I do wonder then, how would you feel if, for example, Cryptic would have been the generous one, giving you great free content and Bioware would be the one selling you the same stuff in The old Republic, or in any other game. Would you then, also, consider one attitude towards the costumer to be as fine as the other.

@Kahnnnnn, I never said that it's wrong to put ST:O beta invites in CO. My complaint was against the deadline of the subs. And the attitude by some members that you are in fact being done a favour in this. Also, cape wearing heroes are so 70s... Get with the program. I'm in the beta, and I love it and I'll probably be getting into the 6 months myself. So... ah... not sure what your response was about.

[Varrangian]

(I'm assuming you meant to say that it WOULD be immoral and...)

Nope it's not immoral, it is a bad idea for business, but still not immoral.

[Jaymz]

Nope it's not immoral, it is a bad idea for business, but still not immoral.

Which is my point But I believe that he meant to say that it IS immoral, since his sentence continues on to say ..."for Cryptic to charge a monthly subscription and also charge you a microtransaction for every little thing."

The "and" in italics seems to suggest that he finally reached his caving point when it comes to MTs, which is where I was hoping to reach.

We all having a caving point when it comes to MTs, though we would never be able to show that it's immoral or illegal, I for one would rather not even start with any kind of MTs, if it can be helped, and according to other MMO publishers, it seems possible still.

[Varrangian]

Which is my point But I believe that he meant to say that it IS immoral, since his sentence continues on to say ..."for Cryptic to charge a monthly subscription and also charge you a microtransaction for every little thing."

The "and" in italics seems to suggest that he finally reached his caving point when it comes to MTs, which is where I was hoping to reach.

We all having a caving point when it comes to MTs, I for one would rather not even start with any kind of MTs, if it can be helped, and according to other MMO publishers, it seems possible still.

I didn't read it as requiring to think that it would be immoral.

As for "caving point" yes everyone has one, so? It doesn't mean that a business will cross that caving point for the majority of their customers just because they reach it for one person.

I'm not suggesting that the example that Peregrine_Falcon gave is something the majority of customer would be comfortable with, in fact I would bet that both we and Cryptic know that they would put themselves out of business by trying to do such a thing.

This still does not change the fact that the CO offers don't bother the majority of customers. It also doesn't negate the "nobody is forcing you" argument because still no one is forcing us to buy those things via MT in that example, even if we choose to walk away empty handed no one forced us, thus the offers are still just simple business offers, poorly reasoned perhaps, but that is a moot point. People walk away from bad business offers all the time and those that don't are ignorant.

And by no means does any of this mean that those who disagree with you are simply hiding their true feelings in order to 'kiss-arse" and get into beta.

[Peregrine_Falcon]

(I'm assuming you meant to say that it WOULD be immoral and...)
Which is the exact opposite of what I said, and thus the exact opposite of what I meant.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your problem with this. You are paying monthly because "it's an MMO", what does it have to do with levelling? Nobody is forcing you to Level. Nobody is forcing you to get a larger ship.

If you don't want it, don't buy it. There is nothing illegal or unethical or evil about it. It's their game, they can do what they want with it, nobody is holding a gun to your head. If you don't like it, go back to WoW. Sounds to me like you are one of those people who like getting everything for free. (I must admit that I'm enjoying being on this side of the argument).
Which is exactly what I've been saying. I have no problem with this. If you'd actually read what I wrote in my posts you'd see that this is exactly what I've been saying.

Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!


I don't think they will do this either. Again, my example was just to show you that the argument of "nobody is forcing you" and "you like everything to be free" could be used to justify just about anything and so doesn't prove me wrong in any way.
At no point did I ever say that Cryptic charging us for every little thing would be a good thing. I just said that it wouldn't be illegal or unethical.

[Vuk]

I'll be giving it a try , mainly as a stress test for my system . Who knows If I like it I may stick around for a bit? :)

[Jaymz]

No need to get upset Peregrine, I misunderstood the attitude of your last post. I remember you misunderstanding mine. It happens, I do read everything that you write and try to answer on point.



[FONT="Verdana"][B][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]At no point did I ever say that Cryptic charging us for every little thing would be a good thing. I just said that it wouldn't be illegal or unethical.

And my point was that it's irrelevant whether its illegal or unethical. stop trying to teach me economics and law and try to remember that on this case, you are a consumer like me, and not the company that's after a quick buck. Could either of you finally give me an honest answer on how you feel when you see company A giving it's paying subscriber new content for free and company B giving paying subscribers content for a price?

Could you , as MMO players, possibly see the uneven playing field that's being created in company B's game (Sure, MTs won't affect gameplay. But who's to say what one considers to be gameplay. Some only play MMOs for the RP and collecting.)?

It's perfectly legal. It's wonderfully ethical. But is that the entire range of your opinion on it? the legal and economical remifications for the company? common now...

[CaptainQuirk]

I saw this a lot on the City of Heroes/Villains forums when they first announced their microtransaction costume theme packs. Overnight tons of people posted how they were quiting the game because the "evil microtransaction" had entered their game. When pressed (by myself and others) to explain in logical rational terms just how microtransactions are evil, they were unable to explain it.

I don't think it really NEEDS explanation.

They say that the things you get from microtransactions have no effect on gameplay. Well, look at it this way. You buy a car. It looks awesome. It's fast and fuel efficient. It's got all sorts of fancy features. But the seats are sold separately. Now whether the car has seats or not has no effect on how fast the car is, how fuel efficient it is, how awesome it looks and what fancy features are included.

Now I would support micro transactions if they came in the form of monthly episodic content releases that cost $15 each in lieu of a monthly fee.

But microtransactions are not put in place as an alternate form of revenue. But rather as an ADDITIONAL form of revenue. As if $15 per month from thousands of players is not enough.

THAT is why MTs are considered evil by so many.

[.Spartan]

I [..]But microtransactions are not put in place as an alternate form of revenue. But rather as an ADDITIONAL form of revenue. As if $15 per month from thousands of players is not enough.

THAT is why MTs are considered evil by so many.
No doubt. On the issue of the word "additional", some people in marketing like to spin the MT idea as a "revenue stream enhancement" option since access to it is conditional on the sub.

[Peregrine_Falcon]

Could either of you finally give me an honest answer on how you feel when you see company A giving it's paying subscriber new content for free and company B giving paying subscribers content for a price?
Absolutely I can. My honest answer is that all things being equal I'd rather play the game from company B.

Could you , as MMO players, possibly see the uneven playing field that's being created in company B's game (Sure, MTs won't affect gameplay. But who's to say what one considers to be gameplay. Some only play MMOs for the RP and collecting.)?
I think your premise is wrong. I believe that the game from company B (in the above example) will likely have more content and items than the game from company A.

Why? Because money equals ability to add things to the game, thus more money to the company equals more stuff in game.

A perfect real world example of this is City of Heroes/Villains. It uses the same system (monthly subscription plus MTs for themed costume packs). The developers announced that two special villain classes that they'd been working on the game had been added much earlier than they earlier thought they'd be able to have them ready. Why? Because the increased revenue from selling the costume packs had allowed them to hire more programmers and testers, thus allowing them to have the new classes ready to go sooner than expected.

This being the case I'm personally in favor of a game that has a monthly subscription and also has MTs for small items like extra costumes or other non-game effecting items, because I have seen it in action. Also, unlike a lot of people on this forum I have no problem with MTs. I don't see them as unethical or immoral, and I can afford to purchase them if I want to.

It's perfectly legal. It's wonderfully ethical. But is that the entire range of your opinion on it? the legal and economical remifications for the company? common now...
The economical rammifications for the company? As explained above it increases the income of the company thus allowing them to give us more in game content.

But microtransactions are not put in place as an alternate form of revenue. But rather as an ADDITIONAL form of revenue. As if $15 per month from thousands of players is not enough.

THAT is why MTs are considered evil by so many.
No. So many of you consider MTs evil because you don't want to pay one penny more than you have to. You want to have your cake and eat it and still slam a pitcher of beer without paying extra for it. I on the other hand am willing to pay extra for cheese on my burger or for an extra fancy mug to pour that beer into.

Look at it from my point of view for just one moment. I want STO to be the bestest darn MMO on the whole planet. And I'm willing to pay extra for it if that's what it takes.

[Father_Origin]

CO ? no interest what so ever.

[Jaymz]

First of all - Thanks for the honest answer.

Hmm... I agree with you that a profitable project is more likely to lead to new content. However, if we look at what is possibly the most profitable MMO project ever - WoW, we can see that it's very much possible to be profitable without resorting to MTs.

Hey, if they wan't more money, why not just make a better game? Get more people to join it? Do it the old fashioned way - more subs = more money. With MTs, they are practically cashing in on current subs instead.

I think that we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I think i'm about done with making enemies for one day.It must be the CO beta withdrawal.

[Varrangian]

Could either of you finally give me an honest answer on how you feel when you see company A giving it's paying subscriber new content for free and company B giving paying subscribers content for a price?

I dislike the way you asked this, as if any of our answers up to this point have been dishonest.

That put aside if A and B are exactly equal games then yes of course I would rather play A. If, though, either A or B has something that attracts me more than the other, that will trump how they choose to bill me.

Could you , as MMO players, possibly see the uneven playing field that's being created in company B's game (Sure, MTs won't affect gameplay. But who's to say what one considers to be gameplay. Some only play MMOs for the RP and collecting.)?

Let us say MT do effect game play. Who is to say that your 8 hours a day playing the game to get those items is more valuable then my 4 hour = $5 cash. Will some people find that they are cataching up with others? Yes always be it through MT or game play that rewards hardcore players.

It's perfectly legal. It's wonderfully ethical. But is that the entire range of your opinion on it? the legal and economical remifications for the company? common now...

When it comes to dealing with the outrage that has been poured out regarding these issues, yes. Because as I've said from the start, this is entertainment, I don't have to buy it and neither do you. I suggest anyone who feels the deals are asking too much simply walk away because money talks louder than words. That goes for anything that is not a necessity for living. I find it funny that I live in a country that tends to get more outraged by the actions of a video game company than they do the crooked dealings of their politicians or the medical bureaucracy (I say that as someone who is watching every penny of his father's income go to cancer treatments). Medicine and politics are suppose to help the greater good, a video game company is supposed to be in it for a buck.

First of all - Thanks for the honest answer.

Hmm... I agree with you that a profitable project is more likely to lead to new content. However, if we look at what is possibly the most profitable MMO project ever - WoW, we can see that it's very much possible to be profitable without resorting to MTs.

Hey, if they wan't more money, why not just make a better game? Get more people to join it? Do it the old fashioned way - more subs = more money. With MTs, they are practically cashing in on current subs instead.

I think that we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I think i'm about done with making enemies for one day.It must be the CO beta withdrawal.

First, Wow is an anomaly, no other MMO comes close to WoW and many launched after WoW have either failed or turned to alternate/addition forms of revenue.

Second, I wouldn't call WoW a better game than many of the ones I've played. I wouldn't play WoW for free, but that's my personal opinion.

[Jaymz]

I dislike the way you asked this, as if any of our answers up to this point have been dishonest.

That put aside if A and B are exactly equal games then yes of course I would rather play A. If, though, either A or B has something that attracts me more than the other, that will trump how they choose to bill me.
.

I don't think your answers were dishonest, i do feel, however, that they were somewhat reluctant in showing even the slightest possibility that you share the same feelings we do on this matter. I now know that it's just probably because you are getting tiered of all the ruckus we make.

Which is why i used the terms "company A" and "company B". yes, you may very well assume that they are equal games. As i mentioned, i don't have anything against ST:O, i am definitely more interested in it right now than in WoW or any other MMO that is coming. My and, i assume, most people's issue is with MTs, period. No matter what game it's in.

Let us say MT do effect game play. Who is to say that your 8 hours a day playing the game to get those items is more valuable then my 4 hour = $5 cash. Will some people find that they are cataching up with others? Yes always be it through MT or game play that rewards hardcore players.

Well, i think that one of the beautiful and special things about MMOs is that, well, you don't get everything you want. For example - I never had the time for raids. And on one hand it made me kinda sad that, while i'm very very interested in the lore of Warcraft (having been a fan of the RTS series for a long time), i would never be able to face the most famous characters of the lore and help defeat them, since those require around 25 players working together and a lot of time.

On the other hand, I was happy to be playing in a game that treated the famous characters with such respect that it required such an effort. I also simply appreciated having the challenge there, even though i knew i would probably never be able to surmount it.

Now if you were to honestly ask if i would pay $5 or even 1$ to have that challenge removed and get all the loot they drop, then i would have to say - Not a chance in hell and i can't think of anyone who would. If you don't have the time to get what you wan in a day, get in in a month instead. If you don't have the time to ever get what you want - too bad.


When it comes to dealing with the outrage that has been poured out regarding these issues, yes. Because as I've said from the start, this is entertainment, I don't have to buy it and neither do you. I suggest anyone who feels the deals are asking too much simply walk away because money talks louder than words. That goes for anything that is not a necessity for living. I find it funny that I live in a country that tends to get more outraged by the actions of a video game company than they do the crooked dealings of their politicians or the medical bureaucracy (I say that as someone who is watching every penny of his father's income go to cancer treatments). Medicine and politics are suppose to help the greater good, a video game company is supposed to be in it for a buck.


A video game company is supposed to be in it for the buck, and a costumer is supposed to always be right. I do intend to vote with my wallet by not buying any MTs. But i don't see the harm in being a bit loud about it as well. Squeaky wheel gets the grease, no?

Anyway, i'm sorry to hear about your father, I've lost my mother to that dreaded disease when i was a teenager. I hope he makes it through.

[Varrangian]

Well, i think that one of the beautiful and special things about MMOs is that, well, you don't get everything you want. For example - I never had the time for raids. And on one hand it made me kinda sad that, while i'm very very interested in the lore of Warcraft (having been a fan of the RTS series for a long time), i would never be able to face the most famous characters of the lore and help defeat them, since those require around 25 players working together and a lot of time.

On the other hand, I was happy to be playing in a game that treated the famous characters with such respect that it required such an effort. I also simply appreciated having the challenge there, even though i knew i would probably never be able to surmount it.

Now if you were to honestly ask if i would pay $5 or even 1$ to have that challenge removed and get all the loot they drop, then i would have to say - Not a chance in hell and i can't think of anyone who would. If you don't have the time to get what you wan in a day, get in in a month instead. If you don't have the time to ever get what you want - too bad.

I agree with this, but just because someone gets those items through spending hours or another gets those items through spending $5 neither instance changes the way I play the game or I enjoy it. If someone decides $5 will get them the thing the "pleasure" they are seeking then good for them.

Now I understand the fear that the items will start to have an impact on the game, but if Cryptic keeps with what they've told us, I don't think it will be an issue. For instance the lifetime sub gives people 8 extra character slots (one can argue this is a game play item), but players who choose to go 6 month subs or month to month can also open slots via the game. To me if that's the kind of thing Cryptic is going to sell I can live with it.

A video game company is supposed to be in it for the buck, and a costumer is supposed to always be right. I do intend to vote with my wallet by not buying any MTs. But i don't see the harm in being a bit loud about it as well. Squeaky wheel gets the grease, no?

I think the only way it is harmful to be the squeaky wheel is that it can at times give companies the wrong idea. I'm not saying you're doing that, but given the nature of game companies and forums I'm not sure how much attention is given to individual posts, but rather that a person posts tell a company that you have some interest in their product. Does that make sense, I think the point is clear, but if not let me know and I'll try explain it another way.

Anyway, i'm sorry to hear about your father, I've lost my mother to that dreaded disease when i was a teenager. I hope he makes it through.

Thank you for you kindness, I'm terribly sorry for your loss. It is a horrid disease and often times the cure is worse.

I do hope my point wasn't lost though, I think there are far more important things for us all to get motivated to change than things like STO and Cryptic.

[CaptainQuirk]

[FONT="Verdana"][B][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]No. So many of you consider MTs evil because you don't want to pay one penny more than you have to. You want to have your cake and eat it and still slam a pitcher of beer without paying extra for it. I on the other hand am willing to pay extra for cheese on my burger or for an extra fancy mug to pour that beer into.

Look at it from my point of view for just one moment. I want STO to be the bestest darn MMO on the whole planet. And I'm willing to pay extra for it if that's what it takes.

I want STO to be the best MMO it can possibly be as well. But the incentive for making it great should be the number of people it can reach. Because if they make it great, they will draw more than enough of an audience to pay for the production costs a hundred times over within the first year alone.

Microtransactions are not going to make a MMO developer any more enthusiastic about development than subscription fees alone. In fact, it will make them LESS likely to develop content of substance. Think about it for a second. If I was Joe Developer and I knew that someone with your mindset would pay extra money for a virtual article of clothing or furniture for his character's quarters, which have no impact on gameplay, it will quickly become the preferred form of content. Why would the suits signing my paycheck have me put forth all the extra effort coding in new gameplay functionality when meaningless fluff would pull in about the same amount of money?

Case in point, Star Wars Galaxies and the virtual trading card game associated with it. It's generating a lot of revenue with people constantly buying booster packs at $3 a pop for the random chance of getting a loot card that adds an in-game item that they can use. And yet, since its launch last year, there is no indication that one red cent of the that extra revenue has been channeled into the development of the SWG mmo.

This TCG falls under the heading of a microtransaction. And all it is is a cash cow for SOE which in no way has benefited SWG's core development.

MMO developers today are way too preocupied with money. If they spend more time developing the game than they do trying to come up with marketing schemes, the overall quality of MMOs would increase and more people would be glad to fork over their monthy subscription fee. With a product people want, the money will take care of itself.

[Akaara]

this has gone off topic but yeah I'm playing CO

[Varrangian]

this has gone off topic but yeah I'm playing CO

Unfortunately there are three threads here that have been merged into one so really there is no "on topic" for this post any where.

[.Spartan]

@CaptainQuirk - give up. Some people simply refuse to see the world as it is and cant accept something when there is a painfully obvious inherent conflict of interest because to do so requires intuitive thought and understanding of things not directly related to the topic at hand. Moreover such acceptance might taint or even crack the rosy sunglasses they must wear to accept reality the way they want to see it.

To call the poster you are quoting task. In my opinion I think they should simply raise the sub fee to X amount maybe $25 a month and be done with it. I can easily afford that as it is less than half of what I make an hour for my work. Hell I think $30 or even $40 a month would even be better for such a title if it delivers on content. I wonder if that person would accept to pay that much a month for the service because I would without a second thought or concern as long as I was assured the best effort and support possible from Cryptic and they actually got more involved in this community and did not spend nearly all their efforts on the marketing side of things outside of this place but I digress....

Anyway we all know that is unlikely because it would in all likelihood cost Cryptic lots of subs fees but doing the MT thing keeps the public price point at an "acceptable" level (for now) and allows for extraction of more revenue without the requirement for extra marketing effort for retention of and acquisition of more sub fees or even high quality base content given the asymmetrical nature of the relationship accountability wise and if the person you are responding to cant see that simple truth then dont waste your time anymore.

[VengefulTick]

I dislike the way you asked this, as if any of our answers up to this point have been dishonest.

That put aside if A and B are exactly equal games then yes of course I would rather play A. If, though, either A or B has something that attracts me more than the other, that will trump how they choose to bill me.



Let us say MT do effect game play. Who is to say that your 8 hours a day playing the game to get those items is more valuable then my 4 hour = $5 cash. Will some people find that they are cataching up with others? Yes always be it through MT or game play that rewards hardcore players.



When it comes to dealing with the outrage that has been poured out regarding these issues, yes. Because as I've said from the start, this is entertainment, I don't have to buy it and neither do you. I suggest anyone who feels the deals are asking too much simply walk away because money talks louder than words. That goes for anything that is not a necessity for living. I find it funny that I live in a country that tends to get more outraged by the actions of a video game company than they do the crooked dealings of their politicians or the medical bureaucracy (I say that as someone who is watching every penny of his father's income go to cancer treatments). Medicine and politics are suppose to help the greater good, a video game company is supposed to be in it for a buck.



First, Wow is an anomaly, no other MMO comes close to WoW and many launched after WoW have either failed or turned to alternate/addition forms of revenue.

Second, I wouldn't call WoW a better game than many of the ones I've played. I wouldn't play WoW for free, but that's my personal opinion.

Well stated. Except the WoW part, I liked it for a while, but that is merely a difference in gaming tastes.

[Peregrine_Falcon]

I don't think your answers were dishonest, i do feel, however, that they were somewhat reluctant in showing even the slightest possibility that you share the same feelings we do on this matter. I now know that it's just probably because you are getting tiered of all the ruckus we make.
Not only were none of my posts in the slightest bit dishonest, but if you'd actually read what I'd written you'd have seen that my opinion remains the same in all of my posts. Your twisting of my posts by deciding that I didn't mean what I actually wrote didn't "help you get me to admit the truth", what it did was annoy me and show me that you aren't actually reading what I write. In the future if you play these little BS games in an attempt to "get us to admit the real truth" I'm simply going to stop responding to you.

As for WoW, I have no dislike for WoW. I gather that some people do, I don't care. Sure WoW makes a ton of money, but they also have a ton of subscribers. Cryptic can't count on having that many subscribers so they plan ahead by having MTs also in game. Here's my bet, my bet is that if STO gets anything like WoWs numbers that Cryptic will forget all about MTs. Know why? Cause with that kind of income they won't need them.

I also have no love for Cryptic. If Cryptic is doing right I'll say so. If they're screwing up I'll say that too. One of my first posts on the CoH/V forums was a response to a post by Jack Emmert. I was extremely critical of a decision he'd made, almost to the point of being insulting.

Microtransactions are not going to make a MMO developer any more enthusiastic about development than subscription fees alone. In fact, it will make them LESS likely to develop content of substance. Think about it for a second.
No. I've already given one actual example of how it really happened, which turned out to be the direct opposite of your statement.

And please don't bring up SWG to make a point about anything. Everyone knows that SWG was just one huge blunder right after another. Cryptic is not going to do anything they've done just on GP.

[CaptainQuirk]

No. I've already given one actual example of how it really happened, which turned out to be the direct opposite of your statement.

And please don't bring up SWG to make a point about anything. Everyone knows that SWG was just one huge blunder right after another. Cryptic is not going to do anything they've done just on GP.

This is probably going to put a lot of people against me, but I don't care. But based on what I know about STO at this point, I would rather play SWG. Because frankly, what has been talked about for STO is no more impressive to me than any other MMO out there.

The space aspect is an EVE clone.

The ground game sounds like Tabula Rasa more than anything else... And where is TR now? Gone? Yep...

I don't care how many different ways you can customize your character, the only time we'll really be seeing each other is in mission instances, and it sounds like with all the fighting we'll be doing, there won't be much time to sit and admire the intricate detail of the spots on someone's Trill character's face.

We're given the ability to have bridge officers who we can take with us if we don't have live players available. Bridge officers, but no bridge for them to be on.

For me... read that again, FOR ME, STO is not going to be Star Trek. The very things that play so strongly towards what I envision Star Trek to be are going to be missing from this game. Player Crews and Ship Interiors. Because Star Trek has always been about a diverse crew of people WORKING TOGETHER ONBOARD A SHIP to achieve goals.

I understand the technical reasons why this is not happening. But really, if technology will not allow the realizing of one of the most tangible defining element of Star Trek itself, then I am of the opinion that they should have waited until it does.

For me, Star Wars Galaxies is more like Star Wars than STO, as it has been described to be right now, will be like Star Trek. This is no slight against Cryptic. This is personal opinion.

Oh... and that timeline they keep posting? Its just a convoluted way for them to make up stuff that ultimately will wrap Star Trek around their game, rather than wrapping their game around Star Trek.

And microtransactions won't change that. I'm not going to pay extra for them to deliver less. You might, but that is you. When I see the basic fundamentals of a pre-existing work abandoned, I lose interest in that work. Because I come from a generation that was brought up to look at quality first and foremost. And thus far, as a product, STO is not shaping up to deliver what I'm looking for.

I have no false sense of entitlement. I'm not going to tell Cryptic to stop what they are doing and redesign the game the way I think it ought to be. I'm just not going to bother subscribing until they get it fleshed out more. No skin off my nose. Or theirs...

Besides... They won't miss my subscription when they'll have yours and the exra money you'll gladly fling at them for microtransactions. The extra you'll pay will make up for the minimum I won't.

[cipher_nemo]

This is probably going to put a lot of people against me, but I don't care. But based on what I know about STO at this point, I would rather play SWG. Because frankly, what has been talked about for STO is no more impressive to me than any other MMO out there.

Although I would disagree with you, it doesn't mean I'm instantly "against" you. :) Certainly nothing wrong with sharing your views. In fact, I enjoyed reading them too. This in particular was interesting...

The ground game sounds like Tabula Rasa more than anything else... And where is TR now? Gone? Yep...

(...)

For me... read that again, FOR ME, STO is not going to be Star Trek. The very things that play so strongly towards what I envision Star Trek to be are going to be missing from this game.

I never played Tabula Rasa by "Lord British" (for you Ultima fans), but I did research it quite a bit when it was released. Unfortunately I had a bad feeling about its success and turned out to have guessed correctly. From the obscure name, completely new theme not based on any existing pop-culture genre or story, and conflicting details (you referenced ground combat), I had a feeling that game was best avoided. I can see some similarities in STO with Tabula Rasa in some aspects, but Cryptic has the Star Trek name, universe, and everything surrounding it to survive, let alone their excellent releases in the past. I don't care for comic book style games, but I have seen these and they are solid engines with enough shine to be successful.

As for STO not being Star Trek, I completely agree. Star Trek is far too vast to include everything in one MMO, nor would I expect everything to be included. What I do know is that STO will be fun, it will be a success, and it will incorporate much from the Star Trek universe, adding more to it over time. It won't be perfect, but meh, we don't need "perfect". Besides, one man's "perfect" is another man's blasphemy. ;)

[CaptainQuirk]

Although I would disagree with you, it doesn't mean I'm instantly "against" you. :) Certainly nothing wrong with sharing your views. In fact, I enjoyed reading them too. This in particular was interesting...



I never played Tabula Rasa by "Lord British" (for you Ultima fans), but I did research it quite a bit when it was released. Unfortunately I had a bad feeling about its success and turned out to have guessed correctly. From the obscure name, completely new theme not based on any existing pop-culture genre or story, and conflicting details (you referenced ground combat), I had a feeling that game was best avoided. I can see some similarities in STO with Tabula Rasa in some aspects, but Cryptic has the Star Trek name, universe, and everything surrounding it to survive, let alone their excellent releases in the past. I don't care for comic book style games, but I have seen these and they are solid engines with enough shine to be successful.

As for STO not being Star Trek, I completely agree. Star Trek is far too vast to include everything in one MMO, nor would I expect everything to be included. What I do know is that STO will be fun, it will be a success, and it will incorporate much from the Star Trek universe, adding more to it over time. It won't be perfect, but meh, we don't need "perfect". Besides, one man's "perfect" is another man's blasphemy. ;)

I simply believe that the tangible fundamentals of a pre-existing work should be represented in an MMO based on that work. If those fundamentals are absent from the start, it becomes far more difficult to integrate them later. Doing so will result in a significant change to gameplay for those who buy into it from the onset. And MMO history has shown us that whenever an MMO makes significant changes to its fundamental gameplay, the result is a mass exodus. SOE did this twice to Star Wars Galaxies and got the same result both times, though to a much greater degree the second time. SOE failed to get it right with SWG originally, and with both subsequent changes. They have Star Wars music. They have Star Wars sound effects. They have Star Wars races, costumes, vehicles and architecture. But as Starwarsy as the game is, the fundamental of Star Wars, which is an over-arching story which affects the people, places and things in its fictional world-space, has been missing since day one.

SOE licensed the Star Wars IP, but did not design the game for the audience that has grown to surround that IP in all of its incarnations.

Cryptic has licensed the Star Trek IP, but because their design is lacking key fundamentals of Star Trek itself, I do not believe that they are designing the game for the audience that has been growing around the IP in all of its incarnations for nearly a half century.

Why bother licensing an IP, if that which is produced in its name is not going to target the very audiences that have made that IP successful. And more to the point of this thread, How does one get off expecting people to pay extra for fluff features on a game that ignores the most fundamental elements of the IP upon which it is based?

When Turbine developed Lord of the Rings Online, they did so on the premise that every element in the core design would be backed up by something found in either The Hobbit, The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King or the appendices found at the end of that last book. Anytime the announced some new element while the core game was in development, they quoted the books to cite example of how it fits. The result was a core game that looked and felt true to the IP upon which it is based. Yes, there have been departures from the lore since its expansion, The Mines of Moria, came out, but the fundamental foundation of the game remains intact. No, LotRO does not have an audience anywhere near as big as that of WoW. But it is not struggling. It does not have microtransactions as an additional source of revenue. It thrives on its own. And most importantly, Turbine wrapped their game design around Lord of the Rings. They did not wrap Lord of the Rings around their game design.

SOE wrapped Star Wars around their game design. SWG is barely managing to tread water

After Warner Brothers abandoned The Matrix Online and SOE picked it up, they wrapped The Matrix around their game design. Matrix Online is dead.

Ultima Online - Wrapped around the lore of Ultima and created by the originatord of the Ultima IP... It is still alive and thriving.

Everquest - IS its own IP and continues to thrive

World of Warcraft - Wrapped around and created by the originators of the Warcraft IP. Currently dominating the market as both it and the IP upon which it is based are designed for the mainstream audience.

Star Wars: The Old Republic - In development by BioWare. Game design being wrapped around the the Star Wars IP. I project it will thrive from the onset.

Star Trek Online - In development by Cryptic. Star Trek IP being wrapped around the game design. I project that it will struggle from the onset.

[Varrangian]

SOE wrapped Star Wars around their game design. SWG is barely managing to tread water

Actually Lucas Arts forced SOE to alter the game design when WoW came out, at least as far as my inside source tell me. You can doubt me all you want, but I trust them.

After Warner Brothers abandoned The Matrix Online and SOE picked it up, they wrapped The

Matrix around their game design. Matrix Online is dead.
Matrix was not designed by SOE at all, SOE picked up the Matrix after it had launched. It was launched by Sega after Ubisoft backed out of the deal SOE bought it four months after the atrocious launch.

Ultima Online - Wrapped around the lore of Ultima and created by the originatord of the Ultima IP... It is still alive and thriving.

Thrives because of a hardcore group of fans. It does not draw a lot of new players, but it also does not have player drain like some older MMO's. That being said, the designers had the luxury of building an MMO out of a game. Don't forget though the UXO was never finished as was UWO earlier.

Everquest - IS its own IP and continues to thrive

Yes it thrives and does so partly because they continue to alter the leveling process to make it easier for new players to get into the game and join their established customers. It also like UO has a rabid fan base who will never leave it regardless of their constant complaints about SOE.

World of Warcraft - Wrapped around and created by the originators of the Warcraft IP. Currently dominating the market as both it and the IP upon which it is based are designed for the mainstream audience.

Let's call WoW the singularity of the MMO world. There is no one thing that can explain its success. I love the number of people here who complain about it in one breath and then in the next say they'll be going back because everything else sucks.

Star Wars: The Old Republic - In development by BioWare. Game design being wrapped around the the Star Wars IP. I project it will thrive from the onset.

It will do well. But it will be a glorified single player experience. If you read between the lines of what has been released one has to wonder where the MMO experience is. Again rabid KOTOR fan base to bring it, plus all the Jedi lovers. SWG fans hoping for a haven will unfortunately be sorely disappointed though.

Star Trek Online - In development by Cryptic. Star Trek IP being wrapped around the game design. I project that it will struggle from the onset.

I respectfully disagree that it is the IP wrapped around a game. I'm sorry, but if the talk we hear about episodic content is even a third as good as it sounds they will have captured Trek. Then again I find the "true Trek fans" to be the most elitist fickle and contrary people on the planet, destine to forever be looking for some paradise of Trek the has never existed.

[scottishhaig]

First of all - Thanks for the honest answer.

Hmm... I agree with you that a profitable project is more likely to lead to new content. However, if we look at what is possibly the most profitable MMO project ever - WoW, we can see that it's very much possible to be profitable without resorting to MTs.

Hey, if they wan't more money, why not just make a better game? Get more people to join it? Do it the old fashioned way - more subs = more money. With MTs, they are practically cashing in on current subs instead.

I think that we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I think i'm about done with making enemies for one day.It must be the CO beta withdrawal.

I don't agree Blizzard doesn't have MTs...the two most blatant examples that come to mind:

1). Paying 20.00 to join the Arena season and if you sign up you get this neat little murloc PET. I can't even begin to count the number of teams with a name along the lines of, 'Here for Pet', 'Pet only,' etc.

2). Pay for online or pay-per-view access to Blizzcon and you get a new pet (another murloc I believe). I think that cost is 39.95 or some such thing. I already know of people that are allowing for this expense JUST to get the pet.

JMHO

[Peregrine_Falcon]

This is probably going to put a lot of people against me, but I don't care. But based on what I know about STO at this point, I would rather play SWG.
I agree with you. That's definitely what you should do. You should quit coming to the STO boards entirely and go play SWG.

Star Trek Online - In development by Cryptic. Star Trek IP being wrapped around the game design. I project that it will struggle from the onset.
And this is exactly why. You're making judgements about this game based on nothing. You've never seen the game, you've never played the game, but because of a few rumors that you've heard and/or because of MTs you're all convinced that "STO won't be Trek enough for you."

You sir are exactly the type of die hard Trekkie that I was talking about in my thread. Cryptic is in a no win position with die hard Trekkies such as yourself. Nothing Cryptic can do will ever make STO live up to the grand dream of Star Trek that you carry around in your head. So once again I agree with you. You should go and play SWG and not bother coming back here since you have already decided that you don't like Star Trek Online.

[Cardassian_Vole]

Right...

Cookie anyone?

[CaptainQuirk]

I agree with you. That's definitely what you should do. You should quit coming to the STO boards entirely and go play SWG.


And this is exactly why. You're making judgements about this game based on nothing. You've never seen the game, you've never played the game, but because of a few rumors that you've heard and/or because of MTs you're all convinced that "STO won't be Trek enough for you."

My projection is based on precisely what you selectively omitted from your quote of what I said. The fact that of the MMOs based on a pre-existing work that are wrapped around that work (or developed by the originatord of that work) have a tendency to thrive, while MMOs based on a pre-existing work that have that work wrapped arond them have a tendency to struggle.

You sir are exactly the type of die hard Trekkie that I was talking about in my thread. Cryptic is in a no win position with die hard Trekkies such as yourself. Nothing Cryptic can do will ever make STO live up to the grand dream of Star Trek that you carry around in your head. So once again I agree with you. You should go and play SWG and not bother coming back here since you have already decided that you don't like Star Trek Online.[/COLOR][/B][/FONT]

All they have to do is give me at least a bridge to sit on and a live crew to team with on that bridge and make the challenges involve cooperative problem solving, either on board the ship or on a planet's surface... You know... let us do what we see the characters on the shows doing in every episode. Really, it's not that much to ask. Because fundamentally speaking, it's what Star Trek is.

But it is not going to happen for a while. So I won't give them a dime until it does. If the product is not what I'm looking for, then I won't buy it. But you have made it a point to suggest that you will pay extra for a product that is less than you know it could (and by all rights, SHOULD) be.

Tell you what. Since you feel that how much money you give cryptic is going to improve the quality of the game, why don't you write them a check for an additional $15 every month, starting now. The devs won't be seeing a penny more of that extra windfall you give Cryptic than they will from the Microtransactions. Both will just serve to line the corporate bank account. It will not result in any extra funding for development of anything more than more fluff content for the MT cash cow. And guess what... That content will have developer time and energy allocated to it, rather than to content that has meaning.

I'll still give STO a try when it comes out. And if my assumptions and fears are wrong, then I will gladly admit it and apologize. But if they are correct, then Cryptic will not see a penny of subscription money from me until/unless the product offers what I'm looking for. And I suspect that far more people will feel the same way when the game hits the market. We haven't heard from them yet, because they are not the type to regularly visit or carry on debates about fundamental game design on a message board, no matter how excited they'll get when they see the box on the retail store shelf.

Like I said, though. they won't miss my money as long as you're there paying more for less...

[Peregrine_Falcon]

I'll still give STO a try when it comes out. And if my assumptions and fears are wrong, then I will gladly admit it and apologize. But if they are correct, then Cryptic will not see a penny of subscription money from me until/unless the product offers what I'm looking for. And I suspect that far more people will feel the same way when the game hits the market. We haven't heard from them yet, because they are not the type to regularly visit or carry on debates about fundamental game design on a message board, no matter how excited they'll get when they see the box on the retail store shelf.
This is exactly what I think we should all do. Try the product when it comes out and decide then if we like it or not. Like you if I like it I'm going to pay for it. If I don't like it then I won't.

Talking on the forums here about what you'd like the game to be like is one thing. Declaring that STO is going to be bad or fail because it isn't "wrapped properly around Trek" (whatever that means) just doesn't make any sense. You're making blanket declarations without any facts.

Earlier you wrote: "FOR ME, STO is not going to be Star Trek." How do you know that? You haven't seen the game. And what little we've heard about it just isn't enough to make any kind of logical decision about one way or the other.

Look, I'm not some Cryptic fanboi that worships the ground they walk on or thinks that they can do no wrong. But it just doesn't make logical sense to criticize a product (any product) unless you've seen it or heard about it from a reliable source. We've done neither, because this product doesn't even exist yet. It doesn't make you look rational or logical when you say stuff like that, it makes you look crazy.

All I'm saying is: don't be crazy. Wait until you see the game, then decide.