Starfleet Military?

[DarkOrion69]

I just re-watched the new Star Trek film and caught an interesting line "Starfleet is a peacekeeping force engaging in humanitarian missions..." (Pike to Kirk). On other threads, I have seen the contention that Starfleet is primarily a military organization. The Starfleet Academy motto is 'Ex astris, scientia'..this translates roughly to 'from the stars, knowledge'. Various Captains in all of the shows seemed to think of war as a regrettable last ditch solution to galactic events.

If Starfleet were primarily a military organization, surely Pike would have said "We need brave souls to fight the dangerous aliens that threaten Federation space." The Starfleet motto would read "Never Again" in response to the horrible Xindi Assault and other alien aggressions. Military minded Captains would be more likely to solve situations with firepower imho, which was not shown in the shows. Perhaps Starfleet is going to be seen as more military in STO as the Federation is in open war...but that does not mean that Starfleet's essential nature is military imho.

[knightofhyrule730]

The Federation is at war with the Klingon Empire. They have a right and a need to become more militaristic.

Also, its a game. it would be very boring if there was no action or combat. Explosions sell. talking does not.

[renef78]

The Federation really needs two military branches, not one. The first would be Starfleet, whose primary task would remain exploration.

The second, though, shoudl be composed of ships primarily designed for war, and tasked with patrolling Federation space. Because as it stands, Starfleet does that job pretty badly. How many times have we heard the words "you're the only ship in this sector"? Not a comforting phrase to hear when a Federation world is under attack. And when the Borg suddenly struck, they had to cobble together a fleet of ships? Same with the Klingon civil war?

Nah, the philosophy of Starfleet is at cross purposes with the needs of defending Federation space. Ships protecting Federation systems don't need astrometrics and stellar cartography labs. They just need guns. So send Starfleet out to explore the galaxy, and build another force tasked with the defense of Federation territory. So when a conflict does break out, a fleet of ships designed for combat will be ready to meet that threat at a moments notice. IMO, of course.

[Falin]

Star fleet is like the US coast Guard, it'sprimary Duty is to enforce federation law in federation space, secndary is to explore new areas, and thirdly in the event of war, defend the federation from aggreesors.

[dravinian]

Star fleet is like the US coast Guard, it'sprimary Duty is to enforce federation law in federation space, secndary is to explore new areas, and thirdly in the event of war, defend the federation from aggreesors.

I disagree Star Fleet is a LOT more like the US Navy.

The US navy only enforces the law at the request of authorities. If you look at things like DARPA for instance you can see the science and 'exploration' and then you also have the national defense issues.

Really Star Fleet is the navy.

[Polaron]

As of Deep Space 9, Starfleet DOES seem to be more actively militaristic, as they're now fielding purpose-made warships (Prometheus and Defiant-class) in large numbers.

[MajorD]

DarkOrion69, you're talking about the new movie, it's a separate universe so the issue is different and seperate from the STO game. The new Starfleet is far more a military than the old TNG one we knew, but somewhat less than the TOS movie Starfleet which came off as pure military to me. So, it fits with the TOS show Starfleet but in a more modern manner than age of sail. By saying humanitarian and peace keeping it puts it in a far more Europe/U.N. style military and avoids the issue of science.

[copyrights]

This seems to be one of those endless debates. However, both sides of the argument are correct. Starfleet has some military responsibilities but has countless other objectives as well. It is NOT primarily a military organization. The Navy and the Coast Guard are nothing like Starfleet. Starfleet acts as representatives, diplomats, explorers, researchers, and sometimes (only when needed) a defensive force. Check the link below for clarification on this topic.
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Starfleet

[Falin]

I disagree Star Fleet is a LOT more like the US Navy.

The US navy only enforces the law at the request of authorities. If you look at things like DARPA for instance you can see the science and 'exploration' and then you also have the national defense issues.

Really Star Fleet is the navy.

plenty of examples f it being more coast gaurd than Navy. Kirk stopped numerous ships in space citing federation law allowing them to "patrol and protect the space lanes of the federation. Picard did the same with a few episodes. The Starfleet charter even shows this to be the case, overwhelming evidence dictates that starfleet is a "Policing" body first, combat divisoon secondly.

[ransomwk]

I don't see Starfleet having a "primary" mission per se. They are an everything force, they are defense, police, research, diplomats, explorers, humanitarian relief, etc... Thus the "primary" mission of a Starfleet ship changes to match the situation at hand. This, I think, is why they like to have general purpose ships that can do a little of everything.


Also, just like any power, a lack of conflict changes it into something less capable of handling conflict. Whereas too much conflict changes it into something less capable of handling anything else.

[Telinous]

I don't see Starfleet having a "primary" mission per se. They are an everything force, they are defense, police, research, diplomats, explorers, humanitarian relief, etc... Thus the "primary" mission of a Starfleet ship changes to match the situation at hand. This, I think, is why they like to have general purpose ships that can do a little of everything.


Also, just like any power, a lack of conflict changes it into something less capable of handling conflict. Whereas too much conflict changes it into something less capable of handling anything else.

Exactly, you can not compare Star Fleet to the coast guard or the Navy or any other force save for the U.N. itself, which in our time actualy serves as a peace keeping force, a humanitarian relieve force, diplomats, and a buffer from invasion. They also support scientific efforts world wide.

[Peregrine_Falcon]

I'm sure that everyone knows my opinion on this subject, so I won't get into it here.

I will simply ask a single question, "If Starfleet isn't a military organization then why does Captain Kirk get court martialed?"

And I will include this link to a portion of that episode: Star Trek Original Series Episode 20: Court Martial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp5v-v341k4)

In that video at about 1 minute in Commodore Stone refers to Starfleet as; "The Service." In the American dialect of the english language "the service" is a phrase that means "the military service." It isn't ever used to refer to anything else, ever.

I'm not sure why a lot of people on this board seem to have such dislike for the military. Please remember that in today's military raping women and killing babies is not allowed. And in the US Military (which I believe that Starfleet was modeled after) it has never been allowed. Our servicemen are taught that is not allowed, and are court martialed if they are found to commit such acts.

[dravinian]

Yes because the only bad thing any military has ever done is rape women and kill babies.

What a ridiculous premise you have created for yourself.

What about the wholesale slaughter of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of civilians by military forces that continues to this day? What about the oppression and suppression of freedoms that the military enforces all over the world?

They don't count as bad things done by military forces?

Falin, there are plenty of examples of the Navy stopping vessels too. The fact is that Star Fleet, like the Navy, seems less about stopping vessels for crime unless specifically charged to do so and more about other duties. The Coast Guard, as much as they might protest, are much more like a customs and excise enforcer then an example of Star Fleet.

[WinterPark1701]

Exactly, you can not compare Star Fleet to the coast guard or the Navy or any other force save for the U.N. itself, which in our time actualy serves as a peace keeping force, a humanitarian relieve force, diplomats, and a buffer from invasion. They also support scientific efforts world wide.

I think truthful Starfleet would be more like the National Guard. The main purpose of the Guard is not war fighting but disaster reflife, limited law enforcement, and making my truck payment however the Guard when nationalized can and does engage in military operations.

[Falin]

I'm sure that everyone knows my opinion on this subject, so I won't get into it here.

I will simply ask a single question, "If Starfleet isn't a military organization then why does Captain Kirk get court martialed?"

Because even the US coast Guard Cort amrtials offenses. But eys starfleet is the coastguard of the Federation. Since member Planets didn'ty want a standing Navy" so to speak. Starfleet Has clear directive that Mandate it as customs, anti-piracy and border protection.

Hs it had duties futhered to include exploration? sure, but it's primary Duty is to patrol , enforce and protect Federation space. this is why there are so few Federatio starships, as "Coast Guard" type force they would not need a large "Navy" sized force to do their job. you also have to note that Starfleet is not allowed to be in a mmber Planets space withoiut permission and they Starfleet can not interfere with a member Planets affairs on the ground.

In times of war however, the Federation does martial reserved ships to duty, so I would surmise they have a "national Guard" type service as well. But it is apparent, starfleet is changing now, the drive to move from a large number of smaller frigates and destroyers for patrol duties to more specilized large scale warships dedicated to combat, shows that they are moving towrds a more regular "Navy" standard.

[pdidy]

Starfleet is the main part of the military, but there are "ground troops" for defense of every planet, and security sometimes is made of troops.

[JerryC]

They think that because they are federation cowards. I am looking forward to crushing the federation weaklings.


Various Captains in all of the shows seemed to think of war as a regrettable last ditch solution to galactic events.

[ajescorcia025]

No they think that beacuse they wish to preserve life. No starfleet captain has shown to run from battle if it was the last option.

[ajescorcia025]

They think that because they are federation cowards. I am looking forward to crushing the federation weaklings.

andi wouldnt really call them weaklings, they did the brunt of the fighting in the dominion war. Im curious what faction do you want to play as?

[Saladin_Class]

Yes because the only bad thing any military has ever done is rape women and kill babies.

I see you have never been in the military

Its" kill the men, rape the women, feed the children."

Now find who said that and you will have your answer.

As far as star trek goes:

"Im a soldier, not a diplomat" James T Kirk

"The military, Starfleet will pervert it into some sort of weapon" Dr Marcus

Starfleet has been, and will always be the Military branch of the united federation of planets

No matter how the liberals try and water it down.

[DarkOrion69]

I can agree that Starfleet functions as the military arm of the UFP when necessary. It probably would be better to set aside a sub-section of Starfleet for purely military actions. I envision Starfleet Marines crewing destroyers, carriers, and super carriers for example. I would much prefer Kirk or Sisko in a firefight as they are more tactically minded. Save Picard, Janeway, and Archer for diplomatic and exploration duty though :)

[Chillee]

Ughhh, dont use the M word. They do NOT exist. They are NOT canon in the OTU.

[Chillee]

Oh yes, Starfleet is not a military organization, though it has those functions. It is not, however, their primary function.

TImes have changed, and perhaps the Roddenberry vision of the 23rd/24th-century is too farfetched for the conflict-minded small minds of the 20/21st-century to understand.

Then again, do people here realize that the future utopia being reflected by the Federation of the 24th-century is thinly-veiled socialism?

My apologies, though, I don't wish to hijack the thread.

[Arcturus]

It's about as Military as the coastguard is.

[dravinian]

I see you have never been in the military

Its" kill the men, rape the women, feed the children."

Now find who said that and you will have your answer.

As far as star trek goes:

"Im a soldier, not a diplomat" James T Kirk

"The military, Starfleet will pervert it into some sort of weapon" Dr Marcus

Starfleet has been, and will always be the Military branch of the united federation of planets

No matter how the liberals try and water it down.

Neither of those are definitive statements, one is a statement about what a single person is....a soldier not a diplomat. I am an artist not a soldier, if I join the US Army does that mean that it isn't a military organisation anymore? No.

The second is an acusation. The military, Starfleet will pervert it. Well the military, ROP will pervert it into a weapon.....does that make the ROP a military organisation?

Neither of your attempts are definitive. They are opinions, albeit opinions taken from within the star trek universe.

[Peregrine_Falcon]

It's about as Military as the coastguard is.
You know, it's funny that you say that.

From the website of the United States Coast Guard: "The United States Coast Guard (USCG) is a military branch of the United States..." (http://www.uscg.mil/top/about/)

So the Coast Guard is a branch of the US military.

Neither of your attempts are definitive. They are opinions, albeit opinions taken from within the star trek universe.
In the video that I provided earlier in this thread Commodore Stone in the TOS Episode 20 Court Martial specifically refers to Starfleet as "the service." The service, as we all know, is a term for the military.

[Azurian]

Technically that's true, Falcon. It is military, but not True Military.

Because the Coast Guard isn't under the DoD, instead it's under the Department Homeland Security. It becomes military when transfered to the Department of the Navy during wartime.

[Raibart]

Star Fleet does need to be more military minded. It makes no sence to me why they send their biggest ships on exploration missions instead of having them patrol their boarders. I applaud Voyager for introducing the Intrepid class to us. These are the Ships to do the Exploring in. And I'd really,Really like the Idea of MACO's as ships security/Marines .

[DarkOrion69]

You know, it's funny that you say that.

From the website of the United States Coast Guard: "The United States Coast Guard (USCG) is a military branch of the United States..." (http://www.uscg.mil/top/about/)

So the Coast Guard is a branch of the US military.


In the video that I provided earlier in this thread Commodore Stone in the TOS Episode 20 Court Martial specifically refers to Starfleet as "the service." The service, as we all know, is a term for the military.

As to the Coast Guard...if they are considered military in anything but semantics, why don't we hear about the battles they have fought? Why don't we learn in history class about the great servicemen from the Coast Guard? It is because they are amphibious National Guardsmen more akin to a militia imho than a military tradition.

The service can be used to refer to serving any organization or person. The term is used by intelligence agencies, foreign embassies, and even in butler work (as in "I was in the service of Mr. Smythe).

As to a 'court martial' if I as a civilian trespass on a military installation I can be 'court martialed' by special dispensation from the on base authorities or remanded to civilian courts, depending largely on the nature of my alleged crimes.

[Arcturus]

I'm going to have to say Starfleet is a military organization only because the members of Starfleet are duty bound to defend the federation from threats, Borg, dominion...etc.

That said, it varies very much from militaries we know because the priorities are to expand upon scientific knowledge of the universe with the help of other civilizations.

Families aren't allowed on modern battleships, and it has been said in TNG somewhere that the Enterprise is a ship of peace. ;)

[Falin]

As to the Coast Guard...if they are considered military in anything but semantics, why don't we hear about the battles they have fought? Why don't we learn in history class about the great servicemen from the Coast Guard? It is because they are amphibious National Guardsmen more akin to a militia imho than a military tradition.

not to fuelthe non-debate more, but you do know the Coast guard was patrolling rivers and lakes in Vietnam during the war right? they also were very active during WW2 in sinking several german submarines and capturing German and japanese spies trying to enter the country. In the modern era, they have been actively asaaulting Drugs smuggling ships from mexico.

So i watch Trek from TOS to TNG+ as similar. In TOS we had a patrolling "Coast guard" that enforced Federation space laws, then were activated for war duty with the war with the Klingons and finally returned to Patrol duties. gradually fro the beginning of TNG, their role was slowely altering, the Battle with the Borg enfored them to Military duties and slowly after hat they werealtered to a more militaristic nature. This climaxes with STO of them being almost fully Militarized in nature.

[Peregrine_Falcon]

It is military, but not True Military.
What? What does that term "True Military" even mean? In the english language that phrase has no meaning. None. You're either pregnant or you are not. And the organization is either a military or it is not. The United States Coast Guard is a banch of the United States Armed Forces. They state that quite completely on their own website. Coast Guard personnel are subject to the UCMJ (Uniformed Code of Military Justice), and they can be court martialed.

The USCG falls under Homeland Security for coordination purposes. However, in times of declared war they fall under the Department of the Navy. They are a military organization, and that is not semantics.

As to a 'court martial' if I as a civilian trespass on a military installation I can be 'court martialed' ...
No. In the United States you cannot be court martialed as a civilian, even if you're on a military base. MPs will hold you and you will be transfered to civilian law enforment custody.

[Elta_and_Zletha]

Cryptic Dev Zinc said this in one of his posts-

That being said, it's a video game where you are _pretending_ to be a military officer in the Star Trek universe.

You're in the Star Trek universe - you're a member of the military.

I responded back (unrelated to his post) about how Starfleet IS NOT the military, yet others who posted afterwards disagreed. I give my proof here-

It was somewhat mentioned at least 3 times during some episodes.

1. TNG "Peak Performance"- Captain Picard is at first reluctant to take part in the batle simulation. He says that Starfleet is not a military organization; believing that diplomacy and exploration are the more important mandates of Starfleet.

2. DS9 "Homefront, Paridise Lost"- Joseph Sisko is angered at the situation when Admiral Leyton initiates a coup d'état on Earth, stating that because Starfleet is not the miltary, they have no right to do this.

3. ENT "Home"- Captain Erika Hernandez was asking Captain Archer on his advice for crew recommondations for the Columbia. Archer suggests a MACO for her tactical officer, but Hernandez was reluctant on having the miltary on board her ship.

Just these three episodes, as well as just sublte hints though out the entire series that Starfleet is not the military.

[WinterPark1701]

Various Captains in all of the shows seemed to think of war as a regrettable last ditch solution to galactic events.

As it should be, there is nothing good about war. War is a terrible, horrible thing which unfortunately from time to time become a necessity.

[Teleon]

I would imagine that Star Fleets doctrine would change with changing circumstances. In wartime it takes on a primary military doctrine. In relative peacetime it takes on science, diplomatic, exploration and support doctrines; even police doctrines.

In short, Star Fleet is geared to be a multipurpose fleet. It follows along with their vessel design as well. Most Federation Star Ships can serve many purposes and perform a good many different tasks. Some ships are of course better suited than others depending on the given task.

[THORN74]

Star fleet is like the US coast Guard, it'sprimary Duty is to enforce federation law in federation space, secndary is to explore new areas, and thirdly in the event of war, defend the federation from aggreesors.

I agree. Though i would consider SF a combined service of Coast Guard and NASA.

the coast guard aspects:
boarder patrol
law enforcement
medical/safety intervention
humanitarian aid
millitary structure and protocol

the nasa aspects:
space exploration
technology development
millitary structure and protocol

[DarkOrion69]

I think I can see Starfleet as a combination Coast Guard in peace-time and an activated Navy Reserve in war-time.

[Sobekeus]

Incase you didn't notice, most of the world's military motto's don't involve 'war ftw'.

[Banar]

Of course Starfleet is a military organization. the rank structure, chain of command, uniform, billets/duties... it's glaringly obvious. "Military" does not equal "we want to kill rape and pillage." Everyones favorite U.N. "Peacekeeping" forces are guilty of some of the most severe human rights violations there are. You can't equate "well they are a military" or "well they are a peacekeeping force" to "they are evil" and "they are good."

And yes, defense IS the primary objective, because it is the most necessary and a failure to defend is the most grievous kind. If you "fail" to classify that nebula today people don't die.

[Azurian]

What? What does that term "True Military" even mean? In the english language that phrase has no meaning. None. You're either pregnant or you are not. And the organization is either a military or it is not. The United States Coast Guard is a banch of the United States Armed Forces. They state that quite completely on their own website. Coast Guard personnel are subject to the UCMJ (Uniformed Code of Military Justice), and they can be court martialed.

The USCG falls under Homeland Security for coordination purposes. However, in times of declared war they fall under the Department of the Navy. They are a military organization, and that is not semantics.

By your logic, NOAA, Public Health Organization, and more, are mililtary solely because they fall under the UCMJ. :rolleyes:

The Coast Guard becomes "military" during times of war under Presidential Order or an Act of Congress, until then it's Maritime Security under the Department of Homeland Security.

[Peregrine_Falcon]

By your logic, NOAA, Public Health Organization, and more, are mililtary solely because they fall under the UCMJ. :rolleyes:
Roll your eyes all you want. Those organizations are civilian ones and their employees are NOT subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

The Coast Guard becomes "military" during times of war under Presidential Order or an Act of Congress, until then it's Maritime Security under the Department of Homeland Security.
Earlier in this thread I posted a link to the United States Coast Guard's own website. They state right on their site that they are a branch of the US Armed forces. The USCG is a military organization period. They state that right on their own website.

From: http://www.uscg.mil/top/about/

"The United States Coast Guard (USCG) is a military branch of the United States . . ."

The US Coast Guard IS military! They say so right on their own website. They are always military, in times of war, and in times of peace. They are a military organization 24/7/365.

On a side note, it's one thing to argue about stuff in the Star Trek universe, but it's completely stupid and out of touch with reality to argue about stuff like this. The USCG says right on their own website that they are a military organization. Continuing to disagree with that is like disagreeing with someone who says, "The sun rises in the east."

[ransomwk]

As to the Coast Guard...if they are considered military in anything but semantics, why don't we hear about the battles they have fought? Why don't we learn in history class about the great servicemen from the Coast Guard? It is because they are amphibious National Guardsmen more akin to a militia imho than a military tradition.

The service can be used to refer to serving any organization or person. The term is used by intelligence agencies, foreign embassies, and even in butler work (as in "I was in the service of Mr. Smythe).

As to a 'court martial' if I as a civilian trespass on a military installation I can be 'court martialed' by special dispensation from the on base authorities or remanded to civilian courts, depending largely on the nature of my alleged crimes.

Actually, I have heard of Coast Guard ships pressed into service during the second gulf war. In fact early in the war there was an article going around at work about a Coast Guard cutter repainted gray and deployed to the Persian Gulf to act as a patrol ship. She even seized a small Iraqi boat.


Also, no civilian would be court martialed, you're not under military authority, not under military jurisdiction, the military can't prosecute you. We can however hand you over to local, or federal authorities and have them prosecute the crap out of you.



Further, I don't see any equating Starfleet to any real world organization. Most government organizations have their duties and responsibilities very clearly and precisely spelled out, so everyone knows what everyone is supposed to do, and to keep overlap down to a minimum. Bureaucracy also likes to invent new departments to take on previously unneeded responsibilities. In the Federation however, often when the politicians find some new things to be done, they give it to Starfleet, or if it's a local concern, let the locals deal with it as they see best.

Starfleet does so much, that it can not be a direct equivalent of any current organization. They are a little bit Navy, Coast Guard, DARPA, NASA, NOAA, MIT, JPL, Police, National Guard, Red Cross, Peace Corps.....I could go on but I'm starting to run out of things they do which are also done by one modern organization or another, government or otherwise.

[Elta_and_Zletha]

And yes, defense IS the primary objective, because it is the most necessary and a failure to defend is the most grievous kind. If you "fail" to classify that nebula today people don't die.

I'm sorry, but this is the dumbest discription about Starfleet that I have ever seen.

O.O!

Starflee's primary objective has always been diplomacy and peacful exploration.

I hardly think that Starfleet is making ships soley for the purpose of patroling borders, as if the Federation looks like some paranoid government afraid of any invasions.

Starfleet is about EXPLORATION. People want to go out there and discover new things, not sit back and wait for the hammer to fall.

Btw, if you fail to classify that nebula, people could still die because it's effects will kill anyone who passes through it.

[Tribbler]

Ok,

"Yesterday's Enterprise"

Alternate timeline when there was no Enterprise C there to help fend off the Romulan attack on the Klingon outpost.

Years of fighting turned the Federation into what?

How many years of fighting was Pilke and Kirk involved in, prior to Pike making that statement?

All things being equal, everyday is not equal to the last and things change as needed when survival is at stake.

[Saladin_Class]

Neither of your attempts are definitive. They are opinions, albeit opinions taken from within the star trek universe.

They are not opinions, they are statements made by persons inside the universe.

There are many more quotes from eany and all shows. Except Enterprise.

If it looks like a duck, and swims like a duck, it is a duck.

Yes Starfleet has a peace time role, and do all the ships in it.

This is where all the civilain folk get confused. Class VS role.

[Threshold]

I just re-watched the new Star Trek film and caught an interesting line "Starfleet is a peacekeeping force engaging in humanitarian missions..." (Pike to Kirk).

Pike tells Kirk that The Federation is a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada, in Star Trek XI

[JackShadow]

You guys do know that our fellow Klingon players are laughing themselves into a coma with this Starfleet isn't military discussion, right? I think the non-military discussion stops when a Vor'cha drops out of warp in front of you and starts spitting disruptor fire......

[Solomon_Kane]

Kirk says Starfleet is the Military, while Archer expresses concerns about having the Military onboard.

Beyond that, is it really important?

[WinterPark1701]

Kirk says Starfleet is the Military, while Archer expresses concerns about having the Military onboard.

Beyond that, is it really important?

I think that Starfleet is a multi-role entity with one of the roles being military when called apon.

[rogerwroten]

Roll your eyes all you want. Those organizations are civilian ones and their employees are NOT subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.


Earlier in this thread I posted a link to the United States Coast Guard's own website. They state right on their site that they are a branch of the US Armed forces. The USCG is a military organization period. They state that right on their own website.

From: http://www.uscg.mil/top/about/

"The United States Coast Guard (USCG) is a military branch of the United States . . ."

The US Coast Guard IS military! They say so right on their own website. They are always military, in times of war, and in times of peace. They are a military organization 24/7/365.

On a side note, it's one thing to argue about stuff in the Star Trek universe, but it's completely stupid and out of touch with reality to argue about stuff like this. The USCG says right on their own website that they are a military organization. Continuing to disagree with that is like disagreeing with someone who says, "The sun rises in the east."

Quick question...

If the Coast Guard is part of the Military (and I am not saying they are not) why are they not under the Department of Defense? The other four branches are. Army, Navy, Air Force, and the Marines are considered under the Navy. The only mention of the Coast Guard being a part of the military is by Presidential order in times of war. They are however under the Department of Homeland Security. Which by the way the Border Patrol also falls under.

[Elta_and_Zletha]

Starfleet's mission is exploration.

Let's just put this into simple terms-

A group of scientists settle in an area and make camp. They then go out and explore the vast jungle they are in, but they carry with them guns because, even though they're there to explore, they just don't know what's out there but they need to protect themselves.
A group of natives come in and start to attack their camp. The scientists rush back and defend their camp with their guns.
Are they the military? The scientists have weapons, they defend their camp when it's in trouble.

So is Starfleet the military simply because they have weapons to protect themselves and must rush home to defend from invaders? Noooooooooooooo!

[Saladin_Class]

http://trekmovie.com/2008/05/26/remembering-star-treks-military-moments/

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/database/military_references.htm

You can wishy washy love and peace all you want.

You know ships cant carry even small arms in this day in age. If they do, they become military targets.

[Elta_and_Zletha]

http://trekmovie.com/2008/05/26/remembering-star-treks-military-moments/

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/database/military_references.htm

You can wishy washy love and peace all you want.

You know ships cant carry even small arms in this day in age. If they do, they become military targets.

Your first link only mentions episodes that had an involvment with military factions, not directly saying that Starfleet IS the military.

Second link is just a fan page with no official canon to it.

Ships in your day and age can carry arms and they should because, as I said before, even though you are exploring peacfully, you have to be ready to protect yourself.

Military target... what does that mean exactly? You're a target of a military! DUH! That doesn't mean YOU are the military as well!

[Arcturus]

Starfleet's mission is exploration.

Let's just put this into simple terms-

A group of scientists settle in an area and make camp. They then go out and explore the vast jungle they are in, but they carry with them guns because, even though they're there to explore, they just don't know what's out there but they need to protect themselves.
A group of natives come in and start to attack their camp. The scientists rush back and defend their camp with their guns.
Are they the military? The scientists have weapons, they defend their camp when it's in trouble.

So is Starfleet the military simply because they have weapons to protect themselves and must rush home to defend from invaders? Noooooooooooooo!

Now suppose those scientists rush off to defend other scientists because they heard their cries or the others come to help you? Begins to sound like an organized defense and more like Starfleet.

[Peregrine_Falcon]

Second link is just a fan page with no official canon to it.
How's this for canon: Star Trek Original Series Episode 20: Court Martial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp5v-v341k4)

In that video at about 1 minute in Commodore Stone refers to Starfleet as; "The Service." In the American dialect of the english language "the service" is a phrase that means "the military service." It isn't ever used to refer to anything else, ever. Starfleet is the service, as in the military service. It is canon.

Also no one has even attempted to answer my question. If Captain Kirk isn't in the military then how is it that he gets court martialed? Civilians don't get court martialed.

[RE-Kirk]

aren't there about 20 threads like this?

dead horse

we gots guns - we gonna be shooty things

why care if we call it "military" or not? - seriously it's a game kiddies

[Azurian]

Roll your eyes all you want. Those organizations are civilian ones and their employees are NOT subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Well I am rolling my eyes now, because those organizations are very much under the UCMJ. :p

Earlier in this thread I posted a link to the United States Coast Guard's own website. They state right on their site that they are a branch of the US Armed forces. The USCG is a military organization period. They state that right on their own website.

From: http://www.uscg.mil/top/about/

"The United States Coast Guard (USCG) is a military branch of the United States . . ."

The US Coast Guard IS military! They say so right on their own website. They are always military, in times of war, and in times of peace. They are a military organization 24/7/365.

On a side note, it's one thing to argue about stuff in the Star Trek universe, but it's completely stupid and out of touch with reality to argue about stuff like this. The USCG says right on their own website that they are a military organization. Continuing to disagree with that is like disagreeing with someone who says, "The sun rises in the east."

Once again you are fixated on a single word and justifying it because it's mentioned on their website.

Again, I never said they weren't miltiary, I said they weren't true military. For one, the USCG does not participate in combat operations while under the Department of Homeland Security. And two, under the US Consitution, the military cannot act as law enforcement within borders of the US, which the Coast Guard very much does (except during wartime). During times of war, and they are transfered to the Department of the Navy, then they become a full-fledged military service and allowed to partipate in combat operations.

This information is mentioned on their website as well.


As for Star Trek, Starfleet is obviously a military service, because if they wasn't, then we would've heard about there being a military branch.

[JackShadow]

Well I am rolling my eyes now, because those organizations are very much under the UCMJ. :p



Once again you are fixated on a single word and justifying it because it's mentioned on their website.

Again, I never said they weren't miltiary, I said they weren't true military. For one, the USCG does not participate in combat operations while under the Department of Homeland Security. And two, under the US Consitution, the military cannot act as law enforcement within borders of the US, which the Coast Guard very much does (except during wartime). During times of war, and they are transfered to the Department of the Navy, then they become a full-fledged military service and allowed to partipate in combat operations.

This information is mentioned on their website as well.


As for Star Trek, Starfleet is obviously a military service, because if they wasn't, then we would've heard about there being a military branch.

Not to muddy the waters, as I do believe Starfleet has a military function, but as far as UCMJ, it's not as clear as any of you have stated: http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/a/ucmjart2.htm

Also, telling anyone in the Coast Guard they don't belong to a "true military" service is begging for a serious talking to. See the link on their site about their missions http://www.uscg.mil/top/missions/

Lastly, the law enforcement restriction you mention isn't in the Constitution at all, but Posse Comitatus Act, Titles 10 and 18 of the US Code. The Coast Guard, while under the Homeland Security department, is not restricted by the Posse Comitatus act. If reverted to control of the Department of the Navy during wartime, the Coast Guard units lose their federal law enforcement powers, in favor of the combat missions assigned. The US military *can* act as a law enforcement agency if the Attorney General requests assistance from the Secretary of Defense during extraordinary events (NBC attack, etc.).

Sorry, just had to throw that in there for fun. But, I agree with the overall theme that Starfleet is a military organization, but much more than just that narrow definition...

[Saladin_Class]

Your first link only mentions episodes that had an involvment with military factions, not directly saying that Starfleet IS the military.

Second link is just a fan page with no official canon to it.

Ships in your day and age can carry arms and they should because, as I said before, even though you are exploring peacfully, you have to be ready to protect yourself.

Military target... what does that mean exactly? You're a target of a military! DUH! That doesn't mean YOU are the military as well!


Ah my dear liberal friend. Cryptic has thown out canon, so just let it go.

Are you going to spit hairs on ever issue trying to hold onto your utopian dream?

Please check maritime law. NO civilian ship, can carry wepaons. Thats why the pirates can capture them so easy. THEY ARE UNARMED.

If any ship carries wepaons, that ships country MUST have a treaty to sail though another counties waters with those weapons.

If a warship (any armed vessel) enters a counties waters without a treaty, it is an ACT OF WAR


When your exploration ship is in trouble, and you send out a distess signal,

Pardon my Destroyer, as I will leave my standard anti-pirating patrol and save your bacon.

[babanathie]

How's this for canon: Star Trek Original Series Episode 20: Court Martial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp5v-v341k4)

In that video at about 1 minute in Commodore Stone refers to Starfleet as; "The Service." In the American dialect of the english language "the service" is a phrase that means "the military service." It isn't ever used to refer to anything else, ever. Starfleet is the service, as in the military service. It is canon.

Also no one has even attempted to answer my question. If Captain Kirk isn't in the military then how is it that he gets court martialed? Civilians don't get court martialed.

Members of the Public Health Organization are commissioned officers with no inherent military authority (i.e. Civilian) but are subject to the UCMJ.

[Falin]

Members of the Public Health Organization are commissioned officers with no inherent military authority (i.e. Civilian) but are subject to the UCMJ.

DoD Civilian employees are also subject to the UCMJ for specific jobs

[Azurian]

Not to muddy the waters, as I do believe Starfleet has a military function, but as far as UCMJ, it's not as clear as any of you have stated: http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/a/ucmjart2.htm

Also, telling anyone in the Coast Guard they don't belong to a "true military" service is begging for a serious talking to. See the link on their site about their missions http://www.uscg.mil/top/missions/

Lastly, the law enforcement restriction you mention isn't in the Constitution at all, but Posse Comitatus Act, Titles 10 and 18 of the US Code. The Coast Guard, while under the Homeland Security department, is not restricted by the Posse Comitatus act. If reverted to control of the Department of the Navy during wartime, the Coast Guard units lose their federal law enforcement powers, in favor of the combat missions assigned. The US military *can* act as a law enforcement agency if the Attorney General requests assistance from the Secretary of Defense during extraordinary events (NBC attack, etc.).

Sorry, just had to throw that in there for fun. But, I agree with the overall theme that Starfleet is a military organization, but much more than just that narrow definition...

Okay so I screwed up with the correct legal documentaion, still you justified what I said. :p

Like I keep saying, during peacetime, the USCG is a law enforcement agency and not a member of the armed forces. Thus they cannot act as a military organization. But during wartime they no longer a law enforcement agency, instead they become a military organization. That's what I'm saying they aren't true military, because during peacetime they can't act as part of the armed services. But during wartime they can.

[babanathie]

Okay so I screwed up with the correct legal documentaion, still you justified what I said. :p

Like I keep saying, during peacetime, the USCG is a law enforcement agency and not a member of the armed forces. Thus they cannot act as a military organization. But during wartime they no longer a law enforcement agency, instead they become a military organization. That's what I'm saying they aren't true military, because during peacetime they can't act as part of the armed services. But during wartime they can.

The Coast Guard is now technically now a law enforcement organization and a military force. As a US citizen, I believe it is a dangerous precedent; however, the US government does classify the Coast Guard as both at present.

While some posters have pointed this out on numerous occassions, those posters tend to forget that the majority of the USCG's existence it was not a considered a military organization except in times of emergency. It was a uniformed service (like the Public Health Organization), but not a military service. While the Coast Guard does establish a precedent of armed non-military ships; it does not provide a great argument due to some significant differences between our times and the Star Trek timeline.

To me there are varying degrees to this agrument which basically fall into the following categories:

1. Star Fleet is military period; everything else is just incidental crap. (False statement)
2. Star Fleet is primarily military with an emphasis on exploration, peace and the other Star Trek ideals (Possibly)
3. Star Fleet is military like organization that primary mission includes defense (military), exploration, scientific research and other Star Trek stuff (Probably).
4. Star Fleet is a civil service primarily charged with exploration and the other Star Trek stuff with an added responsibility to defend the Federation. (Possibly)
5. Star Fleet is a purely civilian organization that basically explores the galaxy and other Star Trek stuff, but is tasked with defense. Defense does not include miitarization of forces though. (False).

Stating that Star Fleet is just a military is like saying the atmosphere is made out of oxygen and neglecting the other gases. Yes, it does fulfill the role of a military; but that does not mean that it's just a military. However, keep in mind that in Star Trek VI, the Commander in Chief did state that Star Fleet's exploration and scientific programs would continue even if she had no or negligible military role to fulfill when queried if Star Fleet was going to be mothballed. Star Fleet would still have a distinct and important purpose without the military side of things; unlike a purely military organization.

Anyways, Cryptic made a off hand remark that players were basically playing a military officer in Star Fleet. If the developers really believe that, I think they probably missed a significant part of the IP. If they just made an off hand remark, then par for the course. Cryptic's ability to give the fans information has been a cluster. If they missed a significant part of the IP, I would be worried. Because, it might be fun, but it won't be Star Trek. And an IP game that holds no loyalty... Most of us can figure it out from there...

[Varrangian]

Had anyone ever thought, that the concept of "military" would have to drastically change in a world where there is supposedly no poverty or want? Or a world where hundreds of species are aligned in a common cause?

What is the difference if you call it military or para-military? Honestly, the reality is that Starfleet is an entity that both explores and fights battles and even wars. If the point that some would like to contend - that it is not a military is that it is non-violent I think you both misrepresent Starfleet and misunderstand the nature of military. Remember in modern society is usually politicians that start wars and the military that fights them. In this regard Starfleet is a military and the Federation is the political arm.

[Tain]

There is no doubt that starfleet is the military arm of the UFP. They just have expanded duties as well, its really impossible to look at them in terms of modern organizations, we really have nothing like them currently. They ARE military. As previous posters have said, they have court martials. The Original enterprise went to "battle stations". Every star trek source around refers to non-starfleet federation ships as "civilian". Its pretty obvious. However, they are also different in that they have duties that no current military would be saddled with, like exploration, science, etc.


So in modern terms, to use the US as an example, starfleet is the Navy, and the NOAA, The Coast Guard and the Department of Homeland Security all rolled into one multifaceted entity.

[JackShadow]

Okay so I screwed up with the correct legal documentaion, still you justified what I said. :p

Like I keep saying, during peacetime, the USCG is a law enforcement agency and not a member of the armed forces. Thus they cannot act as a military organization. But during wartime they no longer a law enforcement agency, instead they become a military organization. That's what I'm saying they aren't true military, because during peacetime they can't act as part of the armed services. But during wartime they can.

I think you may have missed this part on the USCG link, so I copied the text:

"For more than 210 years, the Coast Guard has served the nation as one of the five armed forces. Throughout its distinguished history, the Coast Guard has enjoyed a unique relationship with the Navy. By statute, the Coast Guard is an armed force, operating in the joint arena at any time and functioning as a specialized service under the Navy in time of war or when directed by the President. It also has command responsibilities for the U.S. Maritime Defense Zone, countering potential threats to American's coasts, ports, and inland waterways through numerous port-security, harbor-defense, and coastal-warfare operations and exercises.

The Coast Guard's national defense role to support U.S. military commanders-in-chiefs (CINCs) is more explicitly outlined in a memorandum of agreement signed by the Secretaries of Defense and Transportation in 1995. Four major national-defense missions were assigned to the Coast Guard. These missions--maritime intercept operations, deployed port operations/security and defense, peacetime engagement, and environmental defense operations--are essential military tasks assigned to the Coast Guard as a component of joint and combined forces in peacetime, crisis, and war."

The USCG has these missions, regardless of wartime or peacetime status. Just so we're clear. :)

Sorry, I'm an ex-squid who married a woman whose father was a captain (O-6) in the Coast Guard, so I've had these discussions before. Like the above posters, I don't think Starfleet fits into a single category. It's an armed force that also has diplomatic, science, research, and several other areas of responsibility. Smash the USCG, Navy, and NOAA together, add a bit of the State Department, National Institutes of Health, National Security Agency and you might get close. But there aren't any real-world organizations that are exactly the same.

[ThePathOfDawn]

Well, that is true but also agree that it would be boring...
You have to consider that things changed since Kirk, this new movie is actually heading from start of ST...:cool:

[Elta_and_Zletha]

Are you going to spit hairs on ever issue trying to hold onto your utopian dream?
We live in the 25th century, the Federation utopian dream IS a reality in our time.


Please check maritime law. NO civilian ship, can carry wepaons. Thats why the pirates can capture them so easy. THEY ARE UNARMED.
Looking through our computer's database, we couldn't find anything on civilian ships not being able to carry weapons on board...
Possibly for the saftey of passengers on the ship is why they probably don't carry them, but there is no law that says they can't.


If any ship carries wepaons, that ships country MUST have a treaty to sail though another counties waters with those weapons.
If a warship (any armed vessel) enters a counties waters without a treaty, it is an ACT OF WAR
Yes. Which is exactly why Federation ships cannot cross into Neutral Zones or enemy territory. Not denying that.



To me there are varying degrees to this agrument which basically fall into the following categories:

1. Star Fleet is military period; everything else is just incidental crap. (False statement)
2. Star Fleet is primarily military with an emphasis on exploration, peace and the other Star Trek ideals (Possibly)
3. Star Fleet is military like organization that primary mission includes defense (military), exploration, scientific research and other Star Trek stuff (Probably).
4. Star Fleet is a civil service primarily charged with exploration and the other Star Trek stuff with an added responsibility to defend the Federation. (Possibly) Not probably, EXACTLY.
5. Star Fleet is a purely civilian organization that basically explores the galaxy and other Star Trek stuff, but is tasked with defense. Defense does not include miitarization of forces though. (False). Actually, True.

With the exception of the last 2 (which is a great definition of Starfleet), points 1,2 and 3 are the exact opposite.
Again, Starfleet's main purpose is diplomacy and exploration, with military being very last, if even at all.

[DarkOrion69]

I am going to venture, given the contrasting opinions offered here, that Starfleet is the slightly militaristic 'Coast Guard' of the UFP. It becomes the military in times of necessity.

[copyrights]

This is right from MemoryAlpha.
"Federation Starfleet was incorporated as the peace-keeping and humanitarian armada of the Federation, IN ADDITION to exploratory, scientific, and diplomatic functions. "

Notice the "in addition" part, meaning that peace-keeping is not its primary function.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/United_Federation_of_Planets

I am sorry but Starfleet is not a military organization. Just look at the definition of Military.

Military: of, for, or pertaining to war: military preparedness. The military, the military establishment of a nation; the armed forces.

Starfleet is much more than an armed force waiting for war. I think some of you are confusing Starfleet for the Klingon Defense Force.

[Rianames]

Starfleet is much more than an armed force waiting for war. I think some of you are confusing Starfleet for the Klingon Defense Force.

Which is kinda funny, as the Klingon Defense Force is, contrary to Starfleet, a lot more focused on attacking and conquering :eek:

[JackShadow]

This is right from MemoryAlpha.
"Federation Starfleet was incorporated as the peace-keeping and humanitarian armada of the Federation, IN ADDITION to exploratory, scientific, and diplomatic functions. "

Notice the "in addition" part, meaning that peace-keeping is not its primary function.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/United_Federation_of_Planets

I am sorry but Starfleet is not a military organization. Just look at the definition of Military.

Military: of, for, or pertaining to war: military preparedness. The military, the military establishment of a nation; the armed forces.

Starfleet is much more than an armed force waiting for war. I think some of you are confusing Starfleet for the Klingon Defense Force.

Um, if you're going to use a Memory Alpha quote, please use the entire entry. Your argument loses credibility when you selectively cut and paste to make your point....if you look at the entry on the linked page, you find this:

Military

Main article: Starfleet

Starfleet was the military and deep-space exploratory service maintained by the United Federation of Planets. Its principal functions were the advancement of Federation knowledge about the galaxy, the advancement of Federation knowledge of science and technology, and the military defense of the Federation. In addition, it also played a significant diplomatic role. As per its mandate of deep-space exploration, its personnel were frequently brought into contact with cultures and sentient species whose existences were previously unknown to the Federation. Federation Starfleet officers therefore acted as official representatives of the Federation in these cases. Also, Federation Starfleet vessels were frequently used to ferry ambassadors on diplomatic missions. (TNG: "The Last Outpost"; TOS: "Journey to Babel") "

I think the Memory Alpha entry speaks for itself. :D

[Varrangian]

This is right from MemoryAlpha.
"Federation Starfleet was incorporated as the peace-keeping and humanitarian armada of the Federation, IN ADDITION to exploratory, scientific, and diplomatic functions. "

Notice the "in addition" part, meaning that peace-keeping is not its primary function.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/United_Federation_of_Planets

I am sorry but Starfleet is not a military organization. Just look at the definition of Military.

Military: of, for, or pertaining to war: military preparedness. The military, the military establishment of a nation; the armed forces.

Starfleet is much more than an armed force waiting for war. I think some of you are confusing Starfleet for the Klingon Defense Force.

You do realize the term "peace-keeping" is a euphemism right?

[Elta_and_Zletha]

You do realize the term "peace-keeping" is a euphemism right?

Peace-keeping is not a euphemism unless put in quotation marks like you did, however the person who made the post did not (except to directly quote someone).

Yeah, so you'd better "keep posting" about other "issues" so that "I" won't have to come over "there" and "invite" your "family", if you get my meaning. *wink wink* *nudge nudge* =D

...What??

[Tribbler]

Peace-keeping is not a euphemism unless put in quotation marks like you did, however the person who made the post did not (except to directly quote someone).

Yeah, so you'd better "keep posting" about other "issues" so that "I" won't have to come over "there" and "invite" your "family", if you get my meaning. *wink wink* *nudge nudge* =D

...What??

No...no noooooo.

It's "...What??"

[Varrangian]

Peace-keeping is not a euphemism unless put in quotation marks like you did, however the person who made the post did not (except to directly quote someone).

Yeah, so you'd better "keep posting" about other "issues" so that "I" won't have to come over "there" and "invite" your "family", if you get my meaning. *wink wink* *nudge nudge* =D

...What??

No, peace-keeping is a euphemism. It was in quotes to because it was preceded by the word - term.

Peace-keepers historically speaking have been member of a military, but the denotation of military people is that they are not peaceful, so a new term had to be created to counter act people denoted understanding of what the military does and stands for.

All peace-keeping mission embarked upon by the UN (the model for the Federation) have been carried out by soldiers (sailors, marines, and airmen too) from the UN member states. Peace-keeping is done with the threat of further larger violence.

[WinterPark1701]

Peace Keeping generally isn't all that peaceful. (http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/4/8/633748240075196260-peacekeeping.jpg)

[Tain]

I think the Memory Alpha entry speaks for itself. :D

You are right, it does. It flat out states starfleet is military. And a bunch of other things.

[beast0382]

My view on Starfleet is this: Science and exploration foundation with diplomatic, humanitarian efforts, in addition maintains the security of the Federation. The command structure is based upon the current Real Life Navy and is subject to constraints based on the UCMJ in accordance to the rules and regulations stated within the charters for Starfleet.

Starfleet may be pressed into military actions as needed and the ships serve multi-role functions. Take the Galaxy class ships for example, the compliment of wepons suggest a combat ship, but the class has numerous science labs, cargo bays and an impressive transporter array system. A true multi-role class of ship.

The Defiant and Promethius classes were ment to address the growing threats from outside sources, the Borg and the Dominion. Infact the Defiant herself was a prototype for a combat ship specifically for the growing Borg threat.

On a side note, the Coast Guard gets thier paychecks from Department of Transportation, and during wartime they are transferred to the direct control of Department of Defence Trust me I have seen thier base stickers and theyaren't anything like the DoD stickers!

[Elta_and_Zletha]

My view on Starfleet is this: Science and exploration foundation with diplomatic, humanitarian efforts, in addition maintains the security of the Federation. The command structure is based upon the current Real Life Navy and is subject to constraints based on the UCMJ in accordance to the rules and regulations stated within the charters for Starfleet.

Starfleet may be pressed into military actions as needed and the ships serve multi-role functions. Take the Galaxy class ships for example, the compliment of wepons suggest a combat ship, but the class has numerous science labs, cargo bays and an impressive transporter array system. A true multi-role class of ship.

The Defiant and Promethius classes were ment to address the growing threats from outside sources, the Borg and the Dominion. Infact the Defiant herself was a prototype for a combat ship specifically for the growing Borg threat.

On a side note, the Coast Guard gets thier paychecks from Department of Transportation, and during wartime they are transferred to the direct control of Department of Defence Trust me I have seen thier base stickers and theyaren't anything like the DoD stickers!

*Elta hugs Aeryn_Rallas*
What a great view of Starfleet that you have! *tear!*

*Zletha hugs Aeryn_Rallas too*
Hugs are great =)

[thefreshjedi]

Starfleet is a Navy. A Navy is a form of military organization. Starfleet is run by Federation Officers, Diplomats, Scientists, Politicians, and Engineers. They conform to a military style of dress, clothing, personality, and respect. They have a JAG office for military law interpretations, as well as policy making. In one episode on TNG we saw specifically that the JAG office was directly involved in a matter of determining whether Data was property of the federation, or a sentient being with his own rights and priviledges. They have admiratly and joint chiefs of staff which respond directly to the President of the Federation of Planets.

I could go on and on, but all of the various departments, agencies, sub-agencies, and support mechanisms, the structure, the rank and file, and the demeanor of the personnel from within Starfleet all conform to a militaristic style of organization.

Peacekeeping is an oxymoron. "Policing" would be a more appropriate term.

-avery

[copyrights]

Um, if you're going to use a Memory Alpha quote, please use the entire entry. Your argument loses credibility when you selectively cut and paste to make your point....if you look at the entry on the linked page, you find this:

Military

Main article: Starfleet

Starfleet was the military and deep-space exploratory service maintained by the United Federation of Planets. Its principal functions were the advancement of Federation knowledge about the galaxy, the advancement of Federation knowledge of science and technology, and the military defense of the Federation. In addition, it also played a significant diplomatic role. As per its mandate of deep-space exploration, its personnel were frequently brought into contact with cultures and sentient species whose existences were previously unknown to the Federation. Federation Starfleet officers therefore acted as official representatives of the Federation in these cases. Also, Federation Starfleet vessels were frequently used to ferry ambassadors on diplomatic missions. (TNG: "The Last Outpost"; TOS: "Journey to Babel") "


I think the Memory Alpha entry speaks for itself. :D

Yes it does speak for itself. It is not just used for the defense of the Federation, as stated in your quote and which is what I have been saying. Today the military is mainly used for the defense of a nation, StarFleet is not. Its principal functions are the advancement of Federation knowledge about the galaxy, the advancement of Federation knowledge of science and technology as well as play a diplomatic role. Were you trying to prove me wrong?

Also, I quoted from a different page in memory alpha. I provided a link so others could read the entire quote for themselves just as you should have or your quote loses validity.

[WinterPark1701]

You know even in the "Paradise Lost" "Home-front" eps of DS9 Sisko and Layton refer to Starfleet as "The Military"

[tyranastrasz]

I just re-watched the new Star Trek film and caught an interesting line "Starfleet is a peacekeeping force engaging in humanitarian missions..." (Pike to Kirk). On other threads, I have seen the contention that Starfleet is primarily a military organization. The Starfleet Academy motto is 'Ex astris, scientia'..this translates roughly to 'from the stars, knowledge'. Various Captains in all of the shows seemed to think of war as a regrettable last ditch solution to galactic events.

If Starfleet were primarily a military organization, surely Pike would have said "We need brave souls to fight the dangerous aliens that threaten Federation space." The Starfleet motto would read "Never Again" in response to the horrible Xindi Assault and other alien aggressions. Military minded Captains would be more likely to solve situations with firepower imho, which was not shown in the shows. Perhaps Starfleet is going to be seen as more military in STO as the Federation is in open war...but that does not mean that Starfleet's essential nature is military imho.

Maybe I'm biased because I grew up in a military family but too many people seem to think "military" and automatically assume it means "people sitting around waiting for a war to start so they can go bash heads in."

Starfleet is organized with a military chain of command. It has separate laws and a separate judiciary enforcing those laws (military law and court-martial). And, yes, one job of Starfleet is to defend the Federation when the need arises, and that fact in itself makes Starfleet a military organization.

A military organization can have more than one purpose. Doesn't the military of today send humanitarian aid? Doesn't it do research on more than weapons? Weren't there military missions of exploration back before we had the world mapped out? Any military has other things to do besides combat.

[RookActual]

The U.S. military, in times of peace, which are usually longer lasting than times of war, tends to act more as a humanitarian and peacekeeping organization as well. In fact, before 9/11 when I was in the Corps we were operationally more prepared to respond to natural disasters than war. The National Guards in particular spend a great deal of time in humanitarian efforts, and the Navy and Air Force invest a lot into scientific research. Yes, that research may be directed towards military purposes, but I'd say a lot of those advancements benefitted us as well. The Coast Guard seems to do a little bit of everything, even environmental work as well as law enforcement.

You can be a law enforcement, humanitarian and scientific organization and still be a military. I would say Starfleet is a military first and foremost, why? Because if a Captain were ordered to head to the Klingon Neutral Zone border to fend of a squadron of Bird of Preys, but said "Nope, we're staring at a subspace anomaly, and don't need to be bothered with such trite issues." I'd say he would probably be in civilian clothes the next day.

[Varrangian]

I would say Starfleet is a military first and foremost, why? Because if a Captain were ordered to head to the Klingon Neutral Zone border to fend of a squadron of Bird of Preys, but said "Nope, we're staring at a subspace anomaly, and don't need to be bothered with such trite issues." I'd say he would probably be in civilian clothes the next day.

You think it would be that ummm gentle? I mean look at Tom Paris he was put in a prison colony for less.

[RookActual]

You think it would be that ummm gentle? I mean look at Tom Paris he was put in a prison colony for less.

Correction: By prison clothes I mean penal colony uniform. Any organization that can imprison you for not showing up to work or refusing to do your job is a military. I don't know many scientists that get cuffs slapped on their wrists for refusing to come into work.

[ZeframCochrane]

Not that the discussion isn’t stimulating, but I doubt we will ever come to a consensus on this. Not because there isn’t ample evidence to show what the nature of Star Fleet is but because people have strong opinions about what they want Star Fleet to be.

[saint100]

Erm isn't Star Fleet a police force - under civiilan control.

They are there to protect federation citizens and property - not to project military power.

That's why the federation has multi role ships with only the Defiant being built as a purely military craft. If I remember my canon then starfleet vessels are designed to be well defended rather than well armed - it promotes a message that we can defend ourselves rather than a ship like the Scimitar from Nemesis which was a ship built for hunting...

When Voyager made contact with a Romulan ship via a worm hole the Romulan said he didn't recognise the bridge (there was a time -warp thing'y gong on), but Janeway said the ship wasn't a classified class.

You can't really imagine the Cardassians or Romulans putting up ship specs on the interplanetary-internet?!

[RookActual]

Erm isn't Star Fleet a police force - under civiilan control.

They are there to protect federation citizens and property - not to project military power.

That's why the federation has multi role ships with only the Defiant being built as a purely military craft. If I remember my canon then starfleet vessels are designed to be well defended rather than well armed - it promotes a message that we can defend ourselves rather than a ship like the Scimitar from Nemesis which was a ship built for hunting...!

The Defiant, Akira, Norway, Saber, Prometheus. Softcanon ships: Iwo Jima, Achilles, Excalibur....and a few more.

Starfleet has conducted scientific, humanitarian, law enforcement and military roles throughout it's history.

If someone would please just tell me what organization exactly is tasked with protecting the Federation if Starfleet isn't the primary military organization of the UFP? So are we to say in the 25th Century, with multiple powerful and militant Empires at the Federation's doorstep that the UFP doesn't have a military?

[saint100]

The Defiant, Akira, Norway, Saber, Prometheus. Softcanon ships: Iwo Jima, Achilles, Excalibur....and a few more.

Starfleet has conducted scientific, humanitarian, law enforcement and military roles throughout it's history.

If someone would please just tell me what organization exactly is tasked with protecting the Federation if Starfleet isn't the primary military organization of the UFP? So are we to say in the 25th Century, with multiple powerful and militant Empires at the Federation's doorstep that the UFP doesn't have a military?

.. So appart from the The Defiant, Akira, Norway, Saber, Prometheus. Softcanon ships: Iwo Jima, Achilles, Excalibur, Starfleet doesn't have any military vessels at all...!
;)

[Varrangian]

If someone would please just tell me what organization exactly is tasked with protecting the Federation if Starfleet isn't the primary military organization of the UFP? So are we to say in the 25th Century, with multiple powerful and militant Empires at the Federation's doorstep that the UFP doesn't have a military?

Well duh by the 25th century there is no war, famine, greed, or anything yucky bad :rolleyes:

[THORN74]

Peace Keeping generally isn't all that peaceful. (http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/4/8/633748240075196260-peacekeeping.jpg)

yes "peace keeipng" is one of those damn 90s oximoronic political correct terms that sure be stricken from useage. One cannot truely achieve peace thru more violence or force of arms. Peace keeping is yet another failed attempt of one group trying to subdue anothers by force without full scale war. it ususally involves a group of multiple nations trying to imposed their will on one particualr group in reaction to some behavior deemd offencive.

it should be acaaled what it is, an invasion of a sovereign nations territory for an extended police action. The motives are usually such that the invaders are trying to right a wrong, but it is an invasion none the less.

[Nimisis]

This is a great thread with a lot of different views and understandings of what Starfleet is and what it is striving to achieve, i agree with most of the opinions here.

To me the simple fact that rather its real life now or in our future, or that STO & Star Trek is just a game & movies, ships have to be able to have defensive capabilities. The vast amount of resources, time, and man power it takes to build a ship, maintain it & operate it would be immense. Adding in the factor of how big space actually is, let alone sectors, quadrants, and galaxies, there is no simple way to have a military force strictly for protection and then have an exploration fleet - unless those ships were assigned to go out together as a fleet, but then that is where the problem comes in, it would be a complete waste, the only logical thing Starfleet can do is build ships that have all these capabilities built into one ship...

It just makes sense.

[ZeframCochrane]

yes "peace keeipng" is one of those damn 90s oximoronic political correct terms that sure be stricken from useage. One cannot truely achieve peace thru more violence or force of arms. Peace keeping is yet another failed attempt of one group trying to subdue anothers by force without full scale war. it ususally involves a group of multiple nations trying to imposed their will on one particualr group in reaction to some behavior deemd offencive.

it should be acaaled what it is, an invasion of a sovereign nations territory for an extended police action. The motives are usually such that the invaders are trying to right a wrong, but it is an invasion none the less.

I'm not commenting here about the content of your post any more than to say this is why people will never agree on whether Star fleet is a military organization or not.

On both sides of the fence the issue strikes too closely to what our political views are. Most of us are fans so we want Star Fleet to more closely resemble what we feel about politics. Almost eveyone is incapable of turning that filter off.

[copyrights]

Not that the discussion isn’t stimulating, but I doubt we will ever come to a consensus on this. Not because there isn’t ample evidence to show what the nature of Star Fleet is but because people have strong opinions about what they want Star Fleet to be.

I will have to agree with you on this point. Although I strongly think that Starfleet is not primarily a military organization, I will have to agree that those that do think this are not ready to open their mind to other alternatives.

However, I would like to note that most of these individuals are Americans that served in the US military are seem to be ignorant. Although I am not suprised by this because every US army personal I met treats our women like trash and try and fight with our men.

Good thing the Federation doesn’t use the military to represent them. The worst representation the US has is its military here in Korea.

Edit: Why do think a curfew was placed on the US military here? Starfleet acts as a representative of the Federation. The military does not.

Am I bias....perhaps. Am I speaking the truth......yes.

[Varrangian]

I will have to agree with you on this point. Although I strongly think that Starfleet is not primarily a military organization, I will have to agree that those that do think this are not ready to open their mind to other alternatives.


Nice way to be mature.

[copyrights]

Nice way to be mature.

Please define mature, because the US military personal does not act in anyway mature. At least from what I have witnessed.

[Varrangian]

Please define mature, because the US military personal does not act in anyway mature. At least from what I have witnessed.

:rolleyes: Should I stereotype just like you do?

[copyrights]

:rolleyes: Should I stereotype just like you do?

Just stating what I witnessed. Also that the US military does not act as a representative to South Korea otherwise we would have cancelled our alliance with the US a long time ago. Starfleet is a representative to the Federation.

[Elta_and_Zletha]

Starfleet is a representative to the Federation.

This is true, although not just entirely Starfleet but to any member of the Federation. They are all representatives.

I'll use the past few posts as an example. Yes, the US military should be responsible for their acts because they are representing their country but the same is true for US civilians, if they ever visit Korea, their behavior also represents the US.

We represent Andoria and as a greater whole, the Federation as well =P

[Varrangian]

Just stating what I witnessed. Also that the US military does not act as a representative to South Korea otherwise we would have cancelled our alliance with the US a long time ago. Starfleet is a representative to the Federation.

So let us recount the argument. You suggested that all those who happen to disagree with you about Starfleet are close minded. I noted this and said it was not a very mature outlook. You then rebutted with "the US military personal does not act anyway mature". I then noted that you are stereotyping, both military personnel and Americans. You countered with a non-sequitur about the alliance between South Korea and the US.

How exactly have you proven that I am the closed minded one for believe Starfleet is a military entity?

[copyrights]

So let us recount the argument. You suggested that all those who happen to disagree with you about Starfleet are close minded. I noted this and said it was not a very mature outlook. You then rebutted with "the US military personal does not act anyway mature". I then noted that you are stereotyping, both military personnel and Americans. You countered with a non-sequitur about the alliance between South Korea and the US.

How exactly have you proven that I am the closed minded one for believe Starfleet is a military entity?

Come to Korea and witness for yourself how a military acts in a foreign country. Or if your lack the resources just read up on recent behavior of off duty military personal in Korea or any country for that matter. Then tell me that they act as a representative as Starfleet does for the Federation.

[copyrights]

Starfleet is not military.
End transmission.

[Elta_and_Zletha]

Starfleet is not military.
End transmission.

Agree =P

*Zletha gives thumbs up!*

[Varrangian]

Come to Korea and witness for yourself how a military acts in a foreign country. Or if your lack the resources just read up on recent behavior of off duty military personal in Korea or any country for that matter. Then tell me that they act as a representative as Starfleet does for the Federation.

You see you've confused the issues here. Just because members of a military organization have behaved badly does not mean that military organizations are inherently bad. Like all large groups there will always be "bad apples" as they say.

Look at Tom Paris and Harry Kim, in a few of the Voyager episodes they get into fights with locals or other activities generally considered "bad". While in the real world far worse happens, that is not an indicator that "military = bad". A military is a way of organizing people for certain roles, one of them can be war, but that is not all that the military does. In many European countries military service is mandatory for all males and they often make the military do things like build/repair infrastructure, plan and prepare emergency contingencies.

[Tribbler]

Starfleet is not military.
End transmission.

When at War - Everyone is Military

End Transmission...

[Elta_and_Zletha]

A military is a way of organizing people for certain roles, one of them can be war, but that is not all that the military does. In many European countries military service is mandatory for all males and they often make the military do things like build/repair infrastructure, plan and prepare emergency contingencies.

...and to explore strange new areas? Seek out new civilizations?

Starfleet's main purpose is EXPLORATION, hence the monologue at the beginning credits.

I doubt people in the 20th and early 21st centurys join the military so that the can discover unknown areas of the Earth.

[Varrangian]

...and to explore strange new areas? Seek out new civilizations?

Starfleet's main purpose is EXPLORATION, hence the monologue at the beginning credits.

I doubt people in the 20th and early 21st centurys join the military so that the can discover unknown areas of the Earth.


In the 17-19th centuries it was the duty of the Royal Navies to explore the world. The man who re-opened Japan to the Western World was a US Naval Officer (Commodore Perry). NASA astronauts are by and large picked from the various branches of the US military.

As I've stated several times in all likelihood the definition of "military" changes once most the primary cause for war (shortages of essential resources) have been eliminated. As we've seen though War still exists in the Trek universe, and those who fight those wars for the Federation are members of Starfleet.

[Tribbler]

...and to explore strange new areas? Seek out new civilizations?

Starfleet's main purpose is EXPLORATION, hence the monologue at the beginning credits.

I doubt people in the 20th and early 21st centurys join the military so that the can discover unknown areas of the Earth.


StarFleet was not at War during the monologes of any of the episodes but was referenced all the time.

War With the Cardassians 1st & 2nd.
War with The Romulans.
War With the Klingons.
War With the Borg (The whole show series was not based around war)

Starfleet was never faced with extinction except when they were about to surrender (Yesterday's Enterprise).

The series was all about the non-war times and thats why they were able to let ships explore.

Was it season 4 & 5 of DS9 that was the 2nd war with the Cardassians? All those were warships in the scenes, no exploration there, the only thing they were exploring was the debris of the wreckage after the battles.

[Kinjiru]

Come to Korea and witness for yourself how a military acts in a foreign country. Or if your lack the resources just read up on recent behavior of off duty military personal in Korea or any country for that matter. Then tell me that they act as a representative as Starfleet does for the Federation.

Wait a sec, your metaphor is flawed. US Troops in South Korea do not represent the South Koreans, they represent the United States of America. To be true to your analogy, you would need to see Starfleet on a non-Federation world. Just like South Korea is an ally to, but not a member of the United States.

Although, as a side note, US troops were originally sent to South Korea by a UN action, it was not a standalone US decision, but a mandate delivered by the United Nations.

The closest analogy here would be if Starfleet troops were to be stationed on Bajor after helping to restore Bajor's status as a sovereign world, but before Bajor was accepted into the Federation.

The bottom line is that Starfleet is a military organization because it is literally organized as a military. Various Ranks based upon US Naval tradition denote seniority and/or responsibility among it's members, commands given by higher ranks are followed by those of the lower ranks. It's duties include exploration and defense... using weapons not available to the civilian population.

Folks, "military" is not a bad word, it's just a term for how Starfleet is organized. You could say the same thing about the local police department, or the Salvation Army, or a myriad number of organizations around the world.

[jdnix]

...and to explore strange new areas? Seek out new civilizations?

Starfleet's main purpose is EXPLORATION, hence the monologue at the beginning credits.

I doubt people in the 20th and early 21st centurys join the military so that the can discover unknown areas of the Earth.


Lewis & Clark were US Army officers and every American member of their expedition were enlisted men in the US Army.

The Royal Navy has a host of exploratory and scientific laurels to it's name. Much of the world was first accurately charted by the Royal Navy for example James Cook charted the coast of Australia. There's a good book called Barrow's Boys by Fergus Fleming about the polar exploration conducted by the Royal Navy during the 19th Century. The HMS Beagle on which Charles Darwin made the observations that led him to formulate his theory of evolution, was a Royal Navy vessel on a purely scientific mission.

No, Starfleet is very different from 20th and 21st century militaries, because there isn't much left to explore on Earth. During the 17th-19th centuries there were large amounts of exploration conducted by the Navies of the world.

[thefreshjedi]

OH MY GAWD?? How many times are we going to hash this out...?! why is it that you tree-huggers have such a negative conotation to the term "military". There is absolutely nothing wrong with that word. Just like there is nothing wrong with the word "hippie", or "tree-hugger". You are what you are, period.

You assume too much by bestowing such a simple term with such negative perceptions, which are absolutely wrong in every way. Yet you continue arguing semantics, repeatedly throughout this thread, and others which have already discussed the same topic over and over.

If you don't like the term "military" then fine, substitute it with a similiar term, such as "defense force". Whatever floats your boat. But the fact remains, they are for all intents and purposes, "A MILITARY FORCE". You can compare them at the very least with a form of Coast Guard (which happens to be attached to the Department of the Navy during times of war, as it is now currently).

Any force which follows specific regalia, traditions, codes, or laws, which is used to not only uphold the laws, but also charged to defend the ideals, the citizens, the lands or property belonging to those citizenry, and is filled with ranks of enlisted personnel, and administrated by officers, denizens, and officials that are government representative, whom answer to the supreme leader of a given land... IS A MILITARY. PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION.

Call it what you will, but this idea that they are not a militaristic form of body, is simply moronic, and obstruficates the facts presented. You can attempt to mitigate the name of military all you want. For whatever preconceived notions you feel you have, but you cannot deny that they are a form of defensive force, charged with protecting the ideals represented within the Federation.

-avery

[Elta_and_Zletha]

StarFleet was not at War during the monologes of any of the episodes but was referenced all the time.

War With the Cardassians 1st & 2nd.
War with The Romulans.
War With the Klingons.
War With the Borg (The whole show series was not based around war)

Starfleet was never faced with extinction except when they were about to surrender (Yesterday's Enterprise).

The series was all about the non-war times and thats why they were able to let ships explore.

Was it season 4 & 5 of DS9 that was the 2nd war with the Cardassians? All those were warships in the scenes, no exploration there, the only thing they were exploring was the debris of the wreckage after the battles.


"This is not a ship of war! This is a ship of peace."
~Guinan, Yesterday's Enterprise

"Starfleet is not a military orginization, its purpose is exploration."
~Capt. Picard, Peak Performance

There were never any "warships" in Starfleet. Recently though, because of major power threats, Stafleet started to construct ships that were more battle oriented, such as the Defiant and Prometheus classes.
Aside from that, the large majority of ships built by Starfleet are for exploration and scientific discovery.

[Varrangian]

Folks, "military" is not a bad word, it's just a term for how Starfleet is organized. You could say the same thing about the local police department, or the Salvation Army, or a myriad number of organizations around the world.

This is why I even went so far as to use the term "para-military" in my first post in this thread. It can encompass anything from police forces to the boy scouts.

[Kinjiru]

"This is not a ship of war! This is a ship of peace."
~Guinan, Yesterday's Enterprise

"Starfleet is not a military orginization, its purpose is exploration."
~Capt. Picard, Peak Performance



The only reason that those quotes exist at all is to further a story arc. For the same reason that realigning the sensor dish to emit tachyon particles worked in one episode, but was never even considered for another.

There were never any "warships" in Starfleet. Recently though, because of major power threats, Stafleet started to construct ships that were more battle oriented, such as the Defiant and Prometheus classes.
Aside from that, the large majority of ships built by Starfleet are for exploration and scientific discovery.

Now you're just making things up.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Starfleet

Starfleet (also referred to as the Federation Starfleet after 2161) was the military and deep-space exploratory service maintained by the United Federation of Planets. Described as a "peacekeeping and humanitarian armada", its principle functions include the advancement of Federation knowledge about the galaxy and its inhabitants, the advancement of Federation science and technology, and the military defense of the Federation. It also played a significant diplomatic role.

As a military service, Federation Starfleet personnel were organized using a military rank structure into a chain of command. Personnel were in either of two groups: enlisted personnel and officers.

In the 22nd century, Starfleet was a civilian organization which adopted many aspects of Earth's earlier military forces, even though its main role was scientific development and exploration. Ranks within Starfleet closely follow the traditions of the United States Navy and the British Royal Navy.

All of this accepted canon information keeps saying that Starfleet is organized along military lines. Even in the last quote, where the definition bows to Picard's statement (in your quote above) it is stated clearly: which adopted many aspects of Earth's earlier military forces... I.E., Ergo sum, in conclusion, at the end, we arrive at: Starfleet is a military organization.

[Elta_and_Zletha]

Ah yes, Starfleet adoped many aspects of the military, but that doesn't mean they are the military.

Such as how the Salvation Army adopted the same aspects, yet they are not military either.

[Kinjiru]

Ah yes, Starfleet adoped many aspects of the military, but that doesn't mean they are the military.

Such as how the Salvation Army adopted the same aspects, yet they are not military either.

I'll say it again... a military organization is just that... an organization that is structured along military lines. In fact, I've used the Salvation Army to point that out.

Any organization that is structured along military lines is... military.

There is no "the military" that you refer to. The United States Army, The United States Marine Corps, The United States Navy, The United States Air Force, The United States Coast Guard, The Civil Air Patrol (An Air Force auxiliary organization)... these are all "military" organizations, but no one of them is "The Military".

[Varrangian]

I'll say it again... a military organization is just that... an organization that is structured along military lines. In fact, I've used the Salvation Army to point that out.

Any organization that is structured along military lines is... military.

There is no "the military" that you refer to. The United States Army, The United States Marine Corps, The United States Navy, The United States Air Force, The United States Coast Guard, The Civil Air Patrol (An Air Force auxiliary organization)... these are all "military" organizations, but no one of them is "The Military".

But military = evil right? :rolleyes:

I don't understand the way this simple and correct word transforms people.

[Kinjiru]

But military = evil right? :rolleyes:

I don't understand the way this simple and correct word transforms people.

Never got it myself either, Var.

[Tain]

Ah yes, Starfleet adoped many aspects of the military, but that doesn't mean they are the military.

Such as how the Salvation Army adopted the same aspects, yet they are not military either.

Picking and choosing quotes, as well as conviniently ignoring conflicting facts doesn't make your own position true. For every one of the (much fewer in number) quotes from Picard, there are others from the other captains stating exactly the opposite. My favorite of course being Kirk's "I'm a soldier, not a diplomat."

No matter what you choose to ignore, starfleet is, and always has been, military. Non Starfleet ships and personnel are referred to as Civilian. Starfleet legal matters can be handled in a court MARTIAL. When starfleet took control of earth in Ds9, it was referred to as MARTIAL LAW. Starfleet uses weapons not used or permitted by federation "civilians" and have been the principle combatants of every major war the Federation has fought.

Seriously, disregarding all the quotes and such, just pop in the DVD for DS9 and go to the episode "Paradise Lost". You will see STARFLEET officers, armed with Phaser Rifles, on Earth, enforcing MARTIAL LAW. It really does not get any clearer than this.

Martial Law, as defined in the dictionary:

The law temporarily imposed upon an area by state or national military forces when civil authority has broken down or during wartime military operations.

[Tech151]

The Federation is at war with the Klingon Empire. They have a right and a need to become more militaristic.

Also, its a game. it would be very boring if there was no action or combat. Explosions sell. talking does not.

Sex sells too, convince cryptic to put some of that in the game and they'll sell more copies than any other MMO on the market.

[WinterPark1701]

Sex sells too, convince cryptic to put some of that in the game and they'll sell more copies than any other MMO on the market.

Hence why my entire bridge crew will be trills in bikinis. The spots always really worked for me.

[ZeframCochrane]

But military = evil right? :rolleyes:

I don't understand the way this simple and correct word transforms people.

Many people's feelings on this topic are so deeply ingrained objectivity is almost impossible.
Sad really.

[WinterPark1701]

Many people's feelings on this topic are so deeply ingrained objectivity is almost impossible.
Sad really.

I think its more like Military = misunderstood. We're not all evil you know, and some of us are even literate.

[renef78]

You see you've confused the issues here. Just because members of a military organization have behaved badly does not mean that military organizations are inherently bad. Like all large groups there will always be "bad apples" as they say.

Agreed. Not only is that an ignorant belief, but it's a hateful one, too. I've seen black people behave badly. So does that mean that all black people behave the same? I've seen asians behave badly. So are they represetative of all asians? Claiming that some military personnel behaving badly are representative of all military personnel is an ignorant standpoint, because for every case of a member of a military organization behaving badly, you can likewise find a case of a members of pretty much every other kind of organization on this planet behaving badly. That's not something unique to the military, but is endemic to humanity and all of its institutions as a whole.

Interestingly enough, there was a recent New York Times article which pointed out how many personnel returning from war committed crimes. The implication was that being a veteran of war made you more likely to become a criminal. But when you stack up the actual numbers, you find that the percentage of military personnel who commit crimes versus the percentage of civilians who commit crimes is actually far lower. So as it turns out, if more of the populace were like returning war veterans, then our crimes rates would be far lower then they are. So yeah, a couple bad apples does not the batch make.

[ZeframCochrane]

I think its more like Military = misunderstood. We're not all evil you know, and some of us are even literate.

I would hope that it is just a lack of understanding leading to misconceptions. I'm not so sure sometimes.

[WinterPark1701]

I would hope that it is just a lack of understanding leading to misconceptions. I'm not so sure sometimes.

The reality of the military is most of us are just like the rest of the population. However, just like the American population the majority of people in the armed forces aren't bad people but a small percent are douches who make the rest of us look bad.

[Varrangian]

The reality of the military is most of us are just like the rest of the population. However, just like the American population the majority of people in the armed forces aren't bad people but a small percent are douches who make the rest of us look bad.

I'm actually working on something in this area of "perception" for a history article. I have a theory that society pushes people like soldiers (marines, sailor, and airmen) and even police officers outside the lines of normal society to a degree because they are perceived to all deal in "death". Much like historically the executioner and butchers have been pushed outside of normal society. We'll see where the evidence leads me though I could be wrong.

[Kinjiru]

I'm actually working on something in this area of "perception" for a history article. I have a theory that society pushes people like soldiers (marines, sailor, and airmen) and even police officers outside the lines of normal society to a degree because they are perceived to all deal in "death". Much like historically the executioner and butchers have been pushed outside of normal society. We'll see where the evidence leads me though I could be wrong.

Interesting theory Var. Although, as a fan of history, I tend to think that the definition of soldier is heavily influenced by the specific society that the person is a member of. The extent to which one is pushed outside the lines of normal activity also depends strongly on each individual society as well.

For example, members of the US military have very specific ROE (Rules of Engagement for those who are unfamiliar) requirements that must be met during combat, and they are held responsible for their actions, and can suffer punishment for violations of law, both US law and local law. This is not necessarily true in other military organizations around the world, either past or present.

Now, as to whether society pushes members of it's military outside the lines of normal activity, we need to define normal. :)

As long as humankind has had civilization, there has been conflict, and some members of each society have organized together to fight. Whether they're fighting oppression, hunger, or for an ideal or a leader, those that have been called on have been forced into larger responsibilities than those of a society's normal, civilian population.

I do think that you should separate out the conscripted versus the volunteer military forces, as they operate and are perceived, in very different ways.

[Varrangian]

Interesting theory Var. Although, as a fan of history, I tend to think that the definition of soldier is heavily influenced by the specific society that the person is a member of. The extent to which one is pushed outside the lines of normal activity also depends strongly on each individual society as well.

For example, members of the US military have very specific ROE (Rules of Engagement for those who are unfamiliar) requirements that must be met during combat, and they are held responsible for their actions, and can suffer punishment for violations of law, both US law and local law. This is not necessarily true in other military organizations around the world, either past or present.

Now, as to whether society pushes members of it's military outside the lines of normal activity, we need to define normal. :)

As long as humankind has had civilization, there has been conflict, and some members of each society have organized together to fight. Whether they're fighting oppression, hunger, or for an ideal or a leader, those that have been called on have been forced into larger responsibilities than those of a society's normal, civilian population.

I do think that you should separate out the conscripted versus the volunteer military forces, as they operate and are perceived, in very different ways.

I should elaborate, this theory came about as I was studying the origins of Modern military. By modern I mean the modern period which can be traced anywhere from 1453 through to the industrial revolution in the late 1700's. What I was interested in was looking for a better origin of the Military Revolutions than those currently offered. When I started to do some research on violence and its evolution during this same period.

This led me look at a source outside of "normal" society. And you are correct to point out that normal is a sticky term, in my work I use the more precise, though more convoluted concept of "legal society" as the early modern period saw a distinct rise in the acceptance of "State" power, or legal/legitimate power as Weber would call it. When looking at things, I actually saw the nucleus of what historians often define as "modern armies" outside this state apparatus, I found it in mercenary groups from the late middle ages.

So I'm digging to see what the source tell me, but one thing I'm finding is that early on the rise of the professional state army was viewed in a negative light. There seems to be some disgust with being paid to kill.

Now I can't say he theory I'm working with is completely diachroic, but I do think that the possibility of some carry over, is there. In any case, my concept is limited to western Europe from at the earliest the late middle ages, say 1390. And this is where my work becomes more theory and ethereal, but I wonder if on some societally conscious level we've continued to be uncomfortable with paying people to potentially kill or at least if some people still percieve it that way.

You raise a very good point about contemporary army practices with the advent of the industrialized draft and those methods of conscription versus those who are professional soldiers.

Sorry, that's a lot condensed into a short space, but being a nerdy historian that dabbles in theory, I don't find people interested in my work too often :p

[WinterPark1701]

I'm actually working on something in this area of "perception" for a history article. I have a theory that society pushes people like soldiers (marines, sailor, and airmen) and even police officers outside the lines of normal society to a degree because they are perceived to all deal in "death". Much like historically the executioner and butchers have been pushed outside of normal society. We'll see where the evidence leads me though I could be wrong.

I think it has less to do with the 'death' thing are truly is just more that people like the military and police operate inside of a cultural off shoot which is very different from what most non-civilians know. Its because of this difference in life style and cultural norms combine with with stereotypes propagated by media and film that make people respond the way they do. Think about it, only 1% of the population ever serves in the military thus making it an institution and a way of life (people also forget that the military isn't just a job, its way of life) which few people understand.

[ZeframCochrane]

The reality of the military is most of us are just like the rest of the population. However, just like the American population the majority of people in the armed forces aren't bad people but a small percent are douches who make the rest of us look bad.

Agreed. I don't want to derail too far off topic but I'll say this and be done. Some people sit back and look at "the military" as this faceless machine bent on death and distruction. They forget, in America at least, military forces are made up mostly of young men and women doing an difficult job under stressful cicumstances far away from home.

[Varrangian]

I think it has less to do with the 'death' thing are truly is just more that people like the military and police operate inside of a cultural off shoot which is very different from what most non-civilians know. Its because of this difference in life style and cultural norms combine with with stereotypes propagated by media and film that make people respond the way they do. Think about it, only 1% of the population ever serves in the military thus making it an institution and a way of life (people also forget that the military isn't just a job, its way of life) which few people understand.

While I understand your point, and I think it has some bearing on the problem, it is probably the majority of the cause actually. The origins of this segmenting off of the "normal" population from the profession army seem to have both practical and psychological reasons. Like I said I'll see where the evidence takes me, if my theory doesn't hold, oh well, but so far there seems to be some sense to it, at least for the 1600's.

[DarkOrion69]

Would it appease all posters if we could all agree that Starfleet is militaristic in form when necessary, yet it is not solely a military body? I am not fond of the application of military force myself, but I concede that, in the course of human events, it can seem to be the only remaining option to control another state or it's actions. After serving in the Air Force and Army Reserves myself, I look at the US Military as guardians against foreign invasion much like Starfleet.

I think it is a rare situation that requires the US to violate the sovereignty of another nation to safeguard the citizens of the US. I feel that the excuses like 'national security', 'protecting US interests', and 'spreading freedom' are just spin doctor words used to justify war to a people that are largely apathetic and likely to protest the use of the US military loudly and publicly. I assume that Starfleet draws protests for it's actions that we never see on the shows, and that Starfleet also justifies it's actions, just like the US does today. However, I would trust that in the 24th Century...humanity has moved away from spin doctoring and that our excuses for war are actually valid reasons instead

[Kinjiru]

While I understand your point, and I think it has some bearing on the problem, it is probably the majority of the cause actually. The origins of this segmenting off of the "normal" population from the profession army seem to have both practical and psychological reasons. Like I said I'll see where the evidence takes me, if my theory doesn't hold, oh well, but so far there seems to be some sense to it, at least for the 1600's.

As an amateur historian, I think you're onto something. :)

[Pontious]

I believe that Starfleet has many roles, which includes scientific research, exploration, defense, and law enforcement. I liken Starfleet to modern navies: they have different classes of ships for all types of purposes, but can fight as well.

I am a big propoent of MACO / military involvement in the Star Trek universe, just because every navy has had a marine corps to back them up and do their land-based fighting.

MACO's however, are just an Earth-based military force, much like how the Bajoran Militia or the Andorian Guard still exist, despite their member worlds being a part of the Federation. I do believe that either a) MACO's exist as the United Earth and United Earth space territory military force, or b) MACO's were dissolved because Earth, being the center of the Federation, had little need for it's own military force because of the amount of Starfleet security stationed there.

MACO's could have also been disbanded (my theory and a centerpoint in my character's history) by the United Earth to show a 'demilitarization' of spacebound personel as an example, showing the United Earth's passion for peaceful exploration and scientific persuit, and it's investment as a planet in Starfleet.

As shown in DS9 (Assault of AR-558 espisode), Starfleet does have planet-based troops, at least as needed in times of war. I feel that these troops are more perminent than most people would like to consider, just because of the rules and regulations regarding the deployment of such troops, as stated by one of the troops in the episode. They also have their own uniforms, another trait of an independant branch of the military.

Also, the TOS was also heavily militarized, in procedure, rank, and operations. When TNG came along, and Roddenberry decided that civilians on spaceships made sense did we loose that militarization of Star Trek. It was brought back in DS9 and that's why some people didn't like DS9, but in reality if Starfleet is the exploration, peacekeeping, and fighting force of the Federation, it stands to reason that they have a specialized military force for planet-based combat that would be a little more intensive than just the security personel aboard a starship.

In the end, it's what you take of it. According to the cannon, there have been MACO's as well as planet-based Starfleet combat troops, but it's up to you to decide whether you think that these are specialized troops only called to action in times of war, or whether you believe that these troops serve as a part of Starfleet, but have either been unseen in the episodes or are integrated into Starfleet (and thus have seperate rank or the rank equivelent of their military ranks).

As for the seperate timeline, it stands to reason that that Starfleet is a lot more militarized than the Starfleet of TOS. But I don't think that the new movies will totally contradict the spirit of Starfleet and Star Trek as a whole ... I think they did the seperate timeline just to update the looks of the ships and equipment.

In closing, my belief is that the military, specifically the MACO's still exist, but are integrated into Starfleet ships. I believe that each ship of size has a MACO contingent ... they just work as a part of the duty rotations like the other crew until they are called as needed. I really think it'd just be too costly to send a squad of 11 people down to every situation, and would give Trek more of a Babylon 5 feel to it. Also, Roddenberry wasn't neccessarily against war (he served in WW2 and it has been said by his widow that Roddenberry knew the fans wanted explosions, but the series couldn't afford it in the beginning), but he also appealed to the better side of human nature.

Again, it all depends whether you believe the good side of the Federation will always win against the evils of the rest of the universe ... or ... whether sometimes the pen is mightier than the sword, but the sword always wins....

[Paulo999]

Omega has some MACO's :D gotta love those Macos :P so much more cooler than Starfleet Marines..

Macos 9/10 :D - ENT

Uniform - they looked more military :O 10/10
Weapons - pew pew pew pew 10/10
Grenades - owwww :D 7/10
EVA suits - nice 8/10
Back Story - Earth Marines owwwww

Starfleet Marines 5/10 - DS9

Uniforms - pfft 5/10
Weapons - all the same 2/10
Grenades - non existant 0/10
EVA suits - uhh white eva suits? 5/10
Back Story - Starfleet Marines .... pfft all they did was die.

Hazardteam(s) - 8/10 - EF2 (isnt canon)

Uniforms - owwww 9/10
Weapons - eeeeee 10/10
Grenades - ahhh 5/10
EVA suits - not bad 7/10
Back Story - Elite Security Team

[DarkOrion69]

The MACO's were introduced (imho) as a anti-terrorist marine force generated by widespread fear following the Xindi Weapon attack on Earth. Clearly, ENT was trying to be topical and talk about fear and how humans respond to terrorism by launching a 'War on Terror'. To me they were not 'sweet', 'awesome', or 'bad***' although they had aesthetically pleasing uniforms to be honest. It was also a touch on the 'Cold War' fear mentality that once gripped the US. Perhaps it was a small caution of assuming the worst and acting out of fear (with MACO's) rather than discovering the root causes of the Xindi Weapon and finding a peaceful solution to the problem as the first act of an enlightened Federation?

[Paulo999]

The MACO's were introduced (imho) as a anti-terrorist marine force generated by widespread fear following the Xindi Weapon attack on Earth. Clearly, ENT was trying to be topical and talk about fear and how humans respond to terrorism by launching a 'War on Terror'. To me they were not 'sweet', 'awesome', or 'bad***' although they had aesthetically pleasing uniforms to be honest. It was also a touch on the 'Cold War' fear mentality that once gripped the US. Perhaps it was a small caution of assuming the worst and acting out of fear (with MACO's) rather than discovering the root causes of the Xindi Weapon and finding a peaceful solution to the problem as the first act of an enlightened Federation?

who needs peace? war is so much more fun :D it has explosions.... and loot.

[Banar]

The MACO's were introduced (imho) as a anti-terrorist marine force generated by widespread fear following the Xindi Weapon attack on Earth. Clearly, ENT was trying to be topical and talk about fear and how humans respond to terrorism by launching a 'War on Terror'. To me they were not 'sweet', 'awesome', or 'bad***' although they had aesthetically pleasing uniforms to be honest. It was also a touch on the 'Cold War' fear mentality that once gripped the US. Perhaps it was a small caution of assuming the worst and acting out of fear (with MACO's) rather than discovering the root causes of the Xindi Weapon and finding a peaceful solution to the problem as the first act of an enlightened Federation?

Possibly so, and I did see many of the same connections. However force of arms is sometimes necessary, and is also sometimes the most effective action to be taken. Granted as a last resort.

[Varrangian]

Since this has been resurrected...
curious that it is on Roddenberry.com (http://www.roddenberry.com/wardrobe/wardrobe-patches/united-federation-of-planets-starfleet-marines-patch.html)

[DarkOrion69]

Yeah, I admit that military force is not necessarily automatically 'unenlightened' or ethically inappropriate. The best that we can hope for is probably judicious and sparing application of military force from one society/species to another. There are usually multiple possible solutions to a problem other then 'hit them with a rock' to end the issue in real life :)

[Banar]

Yeah, I admit that military force is not necessarily automatically 'unenlightened' or ethically inappropriate. The best that we can hope for is probably judicious and sparing application of military force from one society/species to another. There are usually multiple possible solutions to a problem other then 'hit them with a rock' to end the issue in real life :)

100% agreed. That being said, for gameplay purposes and to have some fun, I'll gladly accept that the prerequisites you mention have been fulfilled between the klingons and feds ;) Of course I also look forward to the peaceful aspects... crafting, exploration, etc

[decoy26517]

of course Starfleet is the federations military.

How else do you think the Federation keeps the Proletariat in line?
Or kill people trying to defend their homes like the Maquis?

The Federation is evil.

[Banar]

of course Starfleet is the federations military.

How else do you think the Federation keeps the Proletariat in line?
Or kill people trying to defend their homes like the Maquis?

The Federation is evil.

Wow, a quick-onset case of Aphasia! Fascinating.

[Peregrine_Falcon]

Would it appease all posters if we could all agree that Starfleet is militaristic in form when necessary, yet it is not solely a military body?
No it would not. Starfleet is a military organization. Earlier in this thread I posted a link to a Star Trek TOS video where a Starfleet Commodore specifically refers to Starfleet as "the service", i.e. the military.

In an interview here Craig Zinkievich (executive producer of STO) said: (http://vault.ign.com/View.php?view=editorials.detail&id=249) "...so you are a member of the military... either Starfleet or the Klingon Defence Force at launch."

The STO devs know that Starfleet is the Federation's military. Everyone realizes that Starfleet is a military organization. Everyone except for a select few hard core fans that hate the "military-industrial complex."

[DarkOrion69]

In the last Path article they mentioned the issues at hand in the election of the new Federation President. One of these was the possibility of expanding Starfleet to provide for possible military conflict. This sounds to me like they use Starfleet ask an 'activated reserve' in times of interplanetary war.

Frankly, I am surprised that you cannot compromise on this my friend. I myself achieved compromise from my original opinion that Starfleet was solely non-military. This was largely due to some of your excellent arguments. Why are you so invested on classifying Starfleet as a military organization? Why cant we both take a little from each other and come to a consensus instead of trying to prove a point? Just curious mind, not trying to start a fight...

[Eclipse1987]

imo starfleet is a militaristic orginization, with other focuses ie; diplomacy and exploration.

much like the us military does other things such as offer humanatarian relief or aid however it is still a militarstic orgnization.

same as starfleet.

[davidarmstrong488]

imo starfleet is a militaristic orginization, with other focuses ie; diplomacy and exploration.

much like the us military does other things such as offer humanatarian relief or aid however it is still a militarstic orgnization.

same as starfleet.

This is true - the American military performs many humanitarian missions.

It's probable that Starfleet acts diplomatically in a similar capacity. My brother, who was in the Navy, is fast to point out the difference between a professional military and Starfleet.

Protocol is only enforced when it's convenient
No one follows anything resembling a chain of command
Plot > Logic
A military ship is waaay too purposeful to engage in the wonky missions Starfleet regularly engages in

I think the best way to describe Starfleet is as a para-military organization. They have weapons, they follow a similar hierarchy and naming structure, but there are so many subtle but important ways in which Starfleet differs from professional militaries that calling Starfleet one would really embarrass a genuine fighting force.

If you desire an analogy, think of the Federation as the Galactic Republic and Starfleet as the Jedi Guardians. Yea, the Jedi kick a lot of butt and all, but they aren't army. Starfleet kicks a lot of butt, but they aren't military. Para-military, with emphasis on diplomacy, economy, exploration, and discovery.

The closest an American Navy ship/fleet would get to any of those missions would be to protect someone else doing that. Starfleet is just too varied to place them in that tiny box.

[Eclipse1987]

This is true - the American military performs many humanitarian missions.

It's probable that Starfleet acts diplomatically in a similar capacity. My brother, who was in the Navy, is fast to point out the difference between a professional military and Starfleet.

Protocol is only enforced when it's convenient
No one follows anything resembling a chain of command
Plot > Logic
A military ship is waaay too purposeful to engage in the wonky missions Starfleet regularly engages in

I think the best way to describe Starfleet is as a para-military organization. They have weapons, they follow a similar hierarchy and naming structure, but there are so many subtle but important ways in which Starfleet differs from professional militaries that calling Starfleet one would really embarrass a genuine fighting force.

lol that was much bettef than the point i was trying to make.

+10 to you sir. :)

[Redshirt_40067]

If you look at Star Trek in comparison to the United States Navy I think you will see major siilarities. Military tradition - yes including uniform, rank structures, and internal Miitary Code of Justice. Peacekeepers - yes, send a carrier task force 200 miles from a country causing trouble, and their attitudes generally change. Humanitarian missions - I'll just refer you to the 2004 tsunami that hit Southeast Asia to Africa. The Navy was first on scene rescuing people and deliveringmuch needed supplies. Scientific studies - for a century or more, the Navy has been on the forefront of scientific study and technological advancement.

Sad I have to toot the Navy's horn, I'm Army myself. Still, all you have to do is look at the U.S. Navy and you can easily see that Starfleet is directly descended from that organization.

[J.L.Picard]

StarFleet is a scientific organisation HOWEVER they also take care of the Federation Security, this includes going to war obviously.

I'm glad someone else noticed that in the new movie Starfleet has a more militaristic role in the alternate timeline. But thi is due to timeline changes imagine if the US lost a carrier fleet with no warning out of nowhere they would go nuts and the next several years would see increased military focus and development .

[billybob442]

imo starfleet is a militaristic orginization, with other focuses ie; diplomacy and exploration.

much like the us military does other things such as offer humanatarian relief or aid however it is still a militarstic orgnization.

same as starfleet.

The US military is a good example. Partly because Roddenberry served in the Army in WWII and that no doubt had a big influence on how he set up Starfleet, but also because the US military does take part in many activities similar to Starfleet.

The US military played a major part in exploring the American continent in the 1800's and providing relief and assistance to new settlements, in modern times there are quite a few military personnel involved in scientific research, they provide humanitarian aid to other countries, and though presently they don't handle diplomacy (though they did on some occasions in the 1800's) they will transport diplomats & guard embassies.

The big difference is that the US military is 90% fighting - 10% the other stuff while Starfleet is more like 50-50 or even 30-70. So while the present military is mostly about fighting with the other stuff as an afterthought, Starfleet takes more of a Swiss-army knife approach and was set up from the git-go with this multi-discipline approach in mind.

So I think it definitely is a military, just not a very militant one.

[Zepath]

I just re-watched the new Star Trek film and caught an interesting line "Starfleet is a peacekeeping force engaging in humanitarian missions..." (Pike to Kirk). On other threads, I have seen the contention that Starfleet is primarily a military organization. The Starfleet Academy motto is 'Ex astris, scientia'..this translates roughly to 'from the stars, knowledge'. Various Captains in all of the shows seemed to think of war as a regrettable last ditch solution to galactic events.

And this matters why, exactly?

Roddenberry had a very "unique" out-look on life. It was one co-mingled with the ideals of communism, socialism, and "hippy-ism" ... yet in a structured society.

Communism has failed.

We are seeing socialism in Europe for what it is. There's some good aspects, some bad. But opinions vary on whether its mostly good, or mostly bad.

We're seeing with North Korea, Iran and Somalia what the result of "peace at all costs" (hippy-ism) is actually costing us.

Me, I'm here for a game. I want to make &%$# and then blow it up, in a Star Trek theme. :)

[WinterPark1701]

Starfleet is not primarly a military force, they are mainly a exploritory and humanitarian force with a secondary mission of conducting military operations. They're basicly the national guard of the Federation.

[J.L.Picard]

And this matters why, exactly?

Roddenberry had a very "unique" out-look on life. It was one co-mingled with the ideals of communism, socialism, and "hippy-ism" ... yet in a structured society.

Communism has failed.

We are seeing socialism in Europe for what it is. There's some good aspects, some bad. But opinions vary on whether its mostly good, or mostly bad.

We're seeing with North Korea, Iran and Somalia what the result of "peace at all costs" (hippy-ism) is actually costing us.

Me, I'm here for a game. I want to make &%$# and then blow it up, in a Star Trek theme. :)

excuse you, Europe has the greatest political system ever known. the combination of the EP(Parliament) and the EC(comission) have result in a democratically elected political system that will 99% of the time Favour the civilian, laws on freedom democracy and privacy are enforced. There is a reason why the majority of US companies hate dealing in EU and that is because they get pawned at every turn. Every member of the EU has to sign the Human Rights charter (the EU version) hell if not for Europe there would be no such thing as Human Rights lol.

sorry but if your looking for a true democracy that actually works and a government that works to serve the people then look no further then the EU/EC.

Give it another 15-20 years and say hello to the European Federation the greatest country on the face of this planet not to mention to wealthiest. Look i could go on forever about what the EU does but if your interest in that you can go read.

[billybob442]

As of Deep Space 9, Starfleet DOES seem to be more actively militaristic, as they're now fielding purpose-made warships (Prometheus and Defiant-class) in large numbers.

A thought occurs to me.. though I doubt this was done intentionally on the part of the show writers but the non-militant military nature of Starfleet fits very well with the established Federation history.

Starfleet may have started as an exploratory service pre-Federation but no doubt became a full fledged military during the big long Romuan War of the 2150's & 60's which was so bad that the 4 founding races had to form a single government (the Federation) for mutual support. But then the Federation didn't fight another real war until the Dominion War of the 2370's. Sure there were individual engagements, border skirmishes (Klingons & Cardassians come to mind), and peace keeping missions over that time but no actual wars show up in the UFP timeline.

We're talking about a "military" that hadn't fought a real knock-down drag-out war in over 200 years. In lieu of this it makes sense that Starfleet would have a very non-military feel. The Federation survived all that time by expanding, not by conquest but by meeting new races and convincing them to add their strength to the UFP. When you haven't fought in over two centuries you can afford to be lax on things like discipline and protocol, allow your mission to become diffused and unfocused, and create ships that don't have a specialized purpose.

[Zepath]

Well, I commend you on your patriotism (for whatever country you live in).

Except I wasn't talking about one nation ... I didn't take a position on whether socialism was generally good or bad ... I merely pointed out the debate is still on-going.

My discussion wasn't about nations ... it was about Star Trek, Roddenberry's vision, and STO. :rolleyes:

[J.L.Picard]

Dominion war anyone?? Romulans like you mentioned + klingons not to mention the Borg. Federation is and Exploration and Scientific organisation HOWEVER they also provide the Security services for the Federation, this includes Police Federation space patrols and when its called for they are the Military arm of the Federation, at no place do they say they are exclusively exploratory except for Enterprise's year 1 and 2 of the show but even then Starfleet is providing Planetary Security.

[billybob442]

At least in Kirk's time the Federation and Klingons seem to be in a cold war situation. The two no doubt had border skirmishes but they never really went at it. The only time we ever see the Klingons poised to take serious action against the UFP the Organians get involved and break it up before anything really happens.

My point being that while individual ships had fights there was nothing Starfleet wide for over 200 years. Compare that with any Western country; I can't think of one that hasn't had at least a half dozen serious fights over the last couple centuries.

Of course we haven't seen how Starfleet changed with the Dominion war. Not to mention the unfolding problems with the Romulans and the Klingons Given all those threats and strains the Starfleet of the late 24th & early 25th centuries could look very militant indeed.

[Peregrine_Falcon]

Frankly, I am surprised that you cannot compromise on this my friend.
I have no problem compromising on matters of opinion. On matters of fact I simply cannot. Water is wet. The sun rises in the east. People breathe air to live, and Starfleet is the military.

I've already shown this clip from ST: TOS where Commodore Stone specifically refers to Starfleet as the service. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp5v-v341k4)

I've also included this link where Craig Zinkievich (executive producer of STO) said: (http://vault.ign.com/View.php?view=editorials.detail&id=249) "...so you are a member of the military... either Starfleet or the Klingon Defence Force at launch."

So regardless of your opinion, in Star Trek Online Starfleet is the military.

[harsgault]

So regardless of your opinion, in Star Trek Online Starfleet is the military.

I can go with this statement as being true, if for no other reason than the Federation has nothing closer to a military arm than Starfleet itself. In a conventional sense, it's hard for us to call Starfleet a real 'military' given it's lack of focus on what an armed service like the Navy entails. Again though, the Federation doesn't have anything else to stand up in that position anyway. It's not that Starfleet really wants to be on the front lines of war. It's that there isn't anyone else to do it.

For further details, consider in your minds the fact that the Federation itself has not wanted to be seen by any of it's neighbors (at any time) as a 'threatening' force.

[Peregrine_Falcon]

In a conventional sense, it's hard for us to call Starfleet a real 'military' given it's lack of focus on what an armed service like the Navy entails.
It's not hard at all. Starfleet patrols the borders, fights in wars, delivers supplies, assists ships in trouble, conducts scientific research, etc. Which is exactly what the US Navy does every single day. I say this as a former member of the US Navy who knows for a fact that the US Navy does these things.

Also the executive producer of STO specifically said that Starfleet is the military. So regardless of whether it's the military in the shows or in the books or in the comics, in Star Trek Online Starfleet is the military.

I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, but how can you just not get that?

[DarkOrion69]

Everything under the stars in a subjective opinion. To me, facts are usually useful myths held by people in at attempt to be sure about different things in life. Any discussion of a fictional idea like Starfleet is subjective because nothing virtual can lay claim to being objective factually. So I believe we should all strive for a general subjective consensus when possible...if any parties are unwilling all that is left is to agree to disagree over whether or not Starfleet is a military. It has been, and continues to be, interesting to see other peoples opinions on this thread. I look forward to more open ended discussion and hope for less closed end objective staetments...less we get into a 'Duck Season/Rabbit Season' cartoon mode :)

[Eclipse1987]

Everything under the stars in a subjective opinion. To me, facts are usually useful myths held by people in at attempt to be sure about different things in life. Any discussion of a fictional idea like Starfleet is subjective because nothing virtual can lay claim to being objective factually. So I believe we should all strive for a general subjective consensus when possible...if any parties are unwilling all that is left is to agree to disagree over whether or not Starfleet is a military. It has been, and continues to be, interesting to see other peoples opinions on this thread. I look forward to more open ended discussion and hope for less closed end objective staetments...less we get into a 'Duck Season/Rabbit Season' cartoon mode :)

I partialy agree with you but some of your reasoning is off, there are undeniable facts about life

such as if i leave my unprotected hand on a fire I will burn myself or humans need air to survive dosent matter where on the planet dosent matter what time same now as it will be fifty years from now as it was ten thousand years ago, this is fact and not debateable or subjective.

I do agree consensuses need to happen but irl that usually isnt the case and this almost never happens in a internet forum

[Galv]

excuse you, Europe has the greatest political system ever known. the combination of the EP(Parliament) and the EC(comission) have result in a democratically elected political system that will 99% of the time Favour the civilian, laws on freedom democracy and privacy are enforced. There is a reason why the majority of US companies hate dealing in EU and that is because they get pawned at every turn. Every member of the EU has to sign the Human Rights charter (the EU version) hell if not for Europe there would be no such thing as Human Rights lol.

sorry but if your looking for a true democracy that actually works and a government that works to serve the people then look no further then the EU/EC.

Give it another 15-20 years and say hello to the European Federation the greatest country on the face of this planet not to mention to wealthiest. Look i could go on forever about what the EU does but if your interest in that you can go read.

Totally off topic but i can't let this slip. The EU looks great sitting in your little London bubble, but all they've done is rob of us our fishing industry, crippled the farming industry, forced open our borders so they could dump all the unskilled workers on us and put an already stressed social welfare system under even more pressure. The English channel is there for reason we shouldn't be part of europe, the people don't want it and that's why in this great demoracy (being the so called labour party) has declined to let us vote on it.

If the EU were so concerned with Human Rights what on earth are they trading with China, it's funny how they turn a blind eye when they want huh? If this country thought the EU was doing such a great job why would it's people vote for a member of the BNP (British National Party for anyone that doesn't know they're pretty much neo-nazis and getting dangerously popular) in the european parliment as an EMP for the United Kingdom. Sorry for the derail.

As for starfleet being military then yes they are, most of the modern countries have armed forces that perform multiple roles depending on their countries needs whether it be during peace or war.

[Galv]

OP what subjective facts are you referring to, are you just keeping this to Star Trek?

[Zepath]

I am so over this discussion ... I wish Cryptic had added it to their story line that Star Fleet found it necessary, given the Klingon's actions, to create an offensive branch of Star Fleet.

Jesus ... I'm a pretty easy going guy when it comes to topics, but this one is starting to flat **** me off.

[Sublime]

If we are comparing Starfleet with something modern day, I would say it is like NASA+Navy. The first rl enterprise was a navy ship. The second, a space shuttle. One a military ship, the other an exploration vessel.

[BaakCha]

I thought the primary mission of Starfleet was to find green alien women and have sex with them. The secondary mission is for the ship's captain to get into a brawl with a hostile alien and get his shirt ripped off.

[Galv]

I am so over this discussion ... I wish Cryptic had added it to their story line that Star Fleet found it necessary, given the Klingon's actions, to create an offensive branch of Star Fleet.

Jesus ... I'm a pretty easy going guy when it comes to topics, but this one is starting to flat **** me off.

I think they already have, it's been mentioned a few times that it's war between the Feds and Klingons. Plus the way i'm understanding it so far, is that you can set your up your captain and ship to be focused on combat/war anyway and join the front lines up and down the neutral zone. I guess that's the beauty of it, you can decide yourself if starfleet is military or exploration.

[Zepath]

If we are comparing Starfleet with something modern day, I would say it is like NASA+Navy. The first rl enterprise was a navy ship. The second, a space shuttle. One a military ship, the other an exploration vessel.

My son would love your avatar. We live in Long Beach, and as far as he's concern, Sublime is the only band that matters (and of course LBDA).

[billybob442]

I thought the primary mission of Starfleet was to find green alien women and have sex with them. The secondary mission is for the ship's captain to get into a brawl with a hostile alien and get his shirt ripped off.

Strangely enough that's actually in their mission statement ... or maybe it was my personal mission statement .. either way those things are very important and most certainly MUST appear in game play. :cool:

[Banar]

If we are comparing Starfleet with something modern day, I would say it is like NASA+Navy. The first rl enterprise was a navy ship. The second, a space shuttle. One a military ship, the other an exploration vessel.

Though the first wasn't a US navy ship ;)

Anyways. Aside from what Starfleet used to be, will be later, whatever... as far as STO is concerned, Klingons and Feds are at war, your character is in the KDF or Starfleet, you're shooting at eachother, and it's been confirmed several times that you are a member of the military for your faction. Put it all together and you get KDF and Starfleet are both the military in STO for their respective factions, regardless of what else they may also be.

[Deadjester1]

I believe organization and ship wise, Starfleet is set up more like a Military with Peace in mind.

Its easier to have your ships be built more for war and conduct peace and science missions when peace is going on then to be built for peace and then try to upgrade for war when its already upon you.

Its one thing to have weapons and not use them because you have no need to then to need them but not have them.

Therefor their ships would been primarly built for offense/defense with science/exploration in mind so as not to waste vast amounts of resources having two different fleets. One that would be useless in peace and one that would be useless in war.

And some ships made purely for each so as to keep their fingers in the pot should they truely need to make pure warships and some ships that could operate in safe areas that were purely science.

Look at today, we have several ports that are just for making warships but we don't need those ports, they are a drain on our national resourcs. BUT we keep them around because should we need them, there will be people there who already have the knowledge and skills to make warships and the factories that will need minimal tooling to upgrade to anything new.

Starfleet is a very effective force in that reguard for as you could see by time the Dominion War came about, yeah Starfleet was cought with its pants down with the force of its adversary, BUT its ships were still very capable once they understood their enemy and it didnt take long though almost to late, to truely turn out their technology and produce ships truely bred for just War.

[DarkOrion69]

I partially agree with you but some of your reasoning is off, there are undeniable facts about life.

Such as if i leave my unprotected hand on a fire, I will burn myself, or humans need air to survive doesn't matter where on the planet...doesn't matter what time...same now as it will be fifty years from now as it was ten thousand years ago, this is a fact and not debatable or subjective.

I do agree consensuses need to happen but IRL that usually isn't the case and this almost never happens in a internet forum

Firstly I am glad you partially agree with my assessment as reality being somewhat subjective (relative) to the observer. Let me show you in your examples how your objective statements could be modified subjectively IRL.

There are multiple recorded cases of Yogis walking across hot coals with their skin undamaged by flames. They say that it is the power of the mind that overcomes the power of the heat and flames.

Humans need air to survive for more than a few minutes . Yogis have managed to live breathless for over 10 minutes in defiance of this supposedly objective requirement.

Technology may one day make flesh immune to heat via personal force shielding. Genetic Engineering may one day modify humans to breath any manner of atmospheres for colonization efforts. This means that time does determine what facts are objective and subjective IRL. Thus anything is debatable as something that may possibly change in the future.

[decoy26517]

Wow, a quick-onset case of Aphasia! Fascinating.

You have no idea what aphasia is, do you?

[ETSstarfleetromulan]

Starfleet seems to be more like the United Nations peacekeepers, but more advanced and with more responsibility.

From my knowledge, they never really seem to strike first just like the UN peacekeepers.

If Starfleet gets shot at, most of the time they will shoot back but they will never start the "shooting".

I haven't heard of a time the UFP has declared war before the person attacking them has.

[Banar]

You have no idea what aphasia is, do you?

It was a joke, if you cannot figure out what it was then that's fine. Please do not try to patronize me, thank you.

[Peregrine_Falcon]

Everything under the stars in a subjective opinion.
No, everything is not subjective. Humans need oxygen in order to survive. How is that subjective?

To me, facts are usually useful myths held by people in at attempt to be sure about different things in life.
You do not believe in facts? When you get sick or injured do you go to a doctor or to a shaman?

Any discussion of a fictional idea like Starfleet is subjective because nothing virtual can lay claim to being objective factually.
When the author of a book tells you that something in the universe that he wrote is X, then it is X. Just as Gene Roddenberry was the author of Star Trek ToS so Craig Zinkievich is the head of the team of authors (the devs) that are writing Star Trek Online. Look, if it makes you feel any better consider the Star Trek Online universe to be a parallel universe much like how the Star Fleet Battles Universe is considered a parallel universe.

So I believe we should all strive for a general subjective consensus when possible...if any parties are unwilling all that is left is to agree to disagree over whether or not Starfleet is a military.
Normally I would agree with you, except for the fact that Starfleet being a military organization is canon. It's been said in the show that it's the military service, and Craig Zinkievich has said that in the Star Trek Online Universe Starfleet is military. He's the head of the team that is creating STO. What he says in the Word of God in STO. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod)

It has been, and continues to be, interesting to see other peoples opinions on this thread. I look forward to more open ended discussion and hope for less closed end objective staetments...less we get into a 'Duck Season/Rabbit Season' cartoon mode
On certain things there can be no discussion, this is one of those things. Humans need water to live, that is a fact that is not open for discussion. What is also not open for discussion is that both Gene Roddenberry (in the form of his character - Commodore Stone) and Craig Zinkievich have said that Starfleet is the military service. They are the "Gods" of the Star Trek Online Universe. How can there be any disagreement?

[Hodo]

To the OP.

They are a peacekeeping force.. much like the UN.

If you look at EVERY starship built in the "Roddenberry" universe, every federation ship had more science and medical abilities than the same sized Klingon, Romulan, Gorn, or Cardasian fleets.

Even the combat vessels were barely armed... Up until well into the DS9 shows did you see a pure combat vessel with the Defiant class. Then you had the Nebula refits, and the Soverign class.

The Federation IS a peacekeeping force. Not a combat force.. they have done the job, but until the Borg showed up did they realize how poor they were at that.

[DarkOrion69]

No, everything is not subjective. Humans need oxygen in order to survive. How is that subjective?


It is subjective because we do not truly know the full knowledge of what Oxygen is, thus we cannot truly determine if it is definitively impossible to exist on it's absence. Theoretically we do need Oxygen to survive today, but that could change someday if any human evolves (or chooses to Genetically Engineer themselves) to breathe alien atmospheres. We do not know if death ends "Human Survival" or just the portion of it apparent on the physical manifestation we perceive. Thus the requirement for Oxygen is subjective depending on the time period (and available technology) we live in and our personal and subjective definition of what "Human Survival" entails.

You do not believe in facts? When you get sick or injured do you go to a doctor or to a shaman?


That depends whether my ailment is physical. mental, or spiritual. Many times I just let my own immune system sort out my illness and avoid spreading it to others by staying home bound for a time. Medical science is not definitive btw, why do you think patients get 'second opinions' instead of 'second facts' from separate doctors if it is all simple fact?


When the author of a book tells you that something in the universe that he wrote is X, then it is X. Just as Gene Roddenberry was the author of Star Trek ToS so Craig Zinkievich is the head of the team of authors (the devs) that are writing Star Trek Online. Look, if it makes you feel any better consider the Star Trek Online universe to be a parallel universe much like how the Star Fleet Battles Universe is considered a parallel universe.

Imho, fiction is categorically impossible to define as fact because it is in essence a lie told to entertain others. While there is 'canon' that has been related by Gene Rodenberry (and other official sources) that I tend to use as a launching pad for my subjective interpretations of ST philosophy...I am still free to interpret the material in regards to my own subjective morality, ethics, and other held opinions.


Normally I would agree with you, except for the fact that Starfleet being a military organization is canon. It's been said in the show that it's the military service, and Craig Zinkievich has said that in the Star Trek Online Universe Starfleet is military. He's the head of the team that is creating STO. What he says in the Word of God in STO. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod)


While I will certainly have to adapt my self to the choices of Cryptic in STO, I do not feel that they wish to be deified or accepted as the 'end all and be all' of things STO. Surely they will want feedback and an open partnership with their subscribers? It would be quite disconcerting to think that whatever they choose to do in STO is written in flaming letters on stone tablets for eternity :)

On certain things there can be no discussion, this is one of those things. Humans need water to live, that is a fact that is not open for discussion. What is also not open for discussion is that both Gene Roddenberry (in the form of his character - Commodore Stone) and Craig Zinkievich have said that Starfleet is the military service. They are the "Gods" of the Star Trek Online Universe. How can there be any disagreement?[/COLOR][/B][/FONT]


Only an omnipotent being could be definitively certain of objective fact. No human is omnipotent (as far as I know) at this stage in human development. As far as I can tell, those that claim godhood (like the Go'auld or the Ori in Stargate) and claim the final say in a given discussion are just false gods with delusions of self importance.

In real life, humans have the free will to disagree with anything, even the gods. Are you an omnipotent being Peregrine_Falcon? I know that I lay no claim to omnipotence myself. Are you the Profit of Cryptic come to deliver the gospel as revealed by your subjective interpretation of your own military service and the impressions ST made upon you? Are we just playing with words and endangering your comforting dogmatic beliefs about the nature of ST (as a military body) in what is obviously a fictional universe?

I honestly think that you and I can reach no consensus because you lay claim to objective fact while I argue subjectively to show you that fact itself is illusory IRL. I hesitate to take our discussion in this thread to metaphysical matters, because I fear that you would find that bucket far too subjective given your apparent objective view of reality. Yet I stand by my assertion that while Starfleet engages in military operations when necessary and has a Navy-style organization that it's function is not PRIMARILY MILITARY.

For the sake of continuing this excellent discussion...If I run outside guns blazing and shoot my neighbor then lay claim to his house...am I now a military because of my actions or merely a criminal? Imho, it depends on how others interpret my actions subjectively that determines if I acted militarily or criminally. Personally, I am pretty sure I would be considered a criminal and not prosecuted as a military insurgent because I am a US citizen and have no foreign ties.

Subjectively speaking, this disallows my consideration as 'an enemy combatant' until the sitting US president decides to declare me one and force false objectivity onto me to allow for military justice to to punish my actions. See how I can easily be subjectively redefined and have it passed off as objective fact? Kind of chilling if you stop to consider the implication that a temporary head of state has the right to define me objectively so that my supposed objective rights evaporate don't you think?

[Obandu]

Complete nonsense

[AchillesHeel]

I'm not caught up on this thread, but I think that's okay, seeing the digression it's taken. So I'm starting fresh from the OP...

I just re-watched the new Star Trek film and caught an interesting line "Starfleet is a peacekeeping force engaging in humanitarian missions..." (Pike to Kirk). On other threads, I have seen the contention that Starfleet is primarily a military organization.
I agree that Starfleet isn't primarily a military organization, because it isn't primarily anything. I don't know why people want to pigeon-hole Starfleet as this or that. It's missions, functions, and capabilities are myriad, and its personnel run the gamut from scientists, to diplomats, to law-enforcement officers, to physicians, to engineers, and to soldiers.

The Starfleet Academy motto is 'Ex astris, scientia'..this translates roughly to 'from the stars, knowledge'. Various Captains in all of the shows seemed to think of war as a regrettable last ditch solution to galactic events.
There have been plenty of soldiers and sailors who think of war as a regrettable, last-ditch solution to events. In fact, it's usually civilians who rush to war.

If Starfleet were primarily a military organization, surely Pike would have said "We need brave souls to fight the dangerous aliens that threaten Federation space." The Starfleet motto would read "Never Again" in response to the horrible Xindi Assault and other alien aggressions.
I agree.

Military minded Captains would be more likely to solve situations with firepower imho, which was not shown in the shows.
You're incorrect here. Military-minded Captains are more likely to solve solutions with firepower, and they were shown in the shows. In TNG, the show I'm most familiar with, Lt. Commander Worf, Commander Shelby ("The Best of Both Worlds"), Captain Jellico ("Chain of Command"), and Captain Maxwell ("The Wounded") were all soldiers (or sailors - the line between soldier and sailor blurs in Starfleet, but it's an unnecessary distinction), and Chief O'Brien was a retired soldier.

Perhaps Starfleet is going to be seen as more military in STO as the Federation is in open war...but that does not mean that Starfleet's essential nature is military imho.
Starfleet's essential nature can't be defined as military, yes. It also can't be defined as law enforcement, medical & rescue, diplomatic relations or scientific inquiry, because Starfleet's essential nature is all of those things.

[Antagonist]

No, everything is not subjective. Humans need oxygen in order to survive. How is that subjective?


You do not believe in facts? When you get sick or injured do you go to a doctor or to a shaman?


When the author of a book tells you that something in the universe that he wrote is X, then it is X. Just as Gene Roddenberry was the author of Star Trek ToS so Craig Zinkievich is the head of the team of authors (the devs) that are writing Star Trek Online. Look, if it makes you feel any better consider the Star Trek Online universe to be a parallel universe much like how the Star Fleet Battles Universe is considered a parallel universe.


Normally I would agree with you, except for the fact that Starfleet being a military organization is canon. It's been said in the show that it's the military service, and Craig Zinkievich has said that in the Star Trek Online Universe Starfleet is military. He's the head of the team that is creating STO. What he says in the Word of God in STO. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod)


On certain things there can be no discussion, this is one of those things. Humans need water to live, that is a fact that is not open for discussion. What is also not open for discussion is that both Gene Roddenberry (in the form of his character - Commodore Stone) and Craig Zinkievich have said that Starfleet is the military service. They are the "Gods" of the Star Trek Online Universe. How can there be any disagreement?

It is subjective because we do not truly know the full knowledge of what Oxygen is, thus we cannot truly determine if it is definitively impossible to exist on it's absence. Theoretically we do need Oxygen to survive today, but that could change someday if any human evolves (or chooses to Genetically Engineer themselves) to breathe alien atmospheres. We do not know if death ends "Human Survival" or just the portion of it apparent on the physical manifestation we perceive. Thus the requirement for Oxygen is subjective depending on the time period (and available technology) we live in and our personal and subjective definition of what "Human Survival" entails.




That depends whether my ailment is physical. mental, or spiritual. Many times I just let my own immune system sort out my illness and avoid spreading it to others by staying home bound for a time. Medical science is not definitive btw, why do you think patients get 'second opinions' instead of 'second facts' from separate doctors if it is all simple fact?




Imho, fiction is categorically impossible to define as fact because it is in essence a lie told to entertain others. While there is 'canon' that has been related by Gene Rodenberry (and other official sources) that I tend to use as a launching pad for my subjective interpretations of ST philosophy...I am still free to interpret the material in regards to my own subjective morality, ethics, and other held opinions.





While I will certainly have to adapt my self to the choices of Cryptic in STO, I do not feel that they wish to be deified or accepted as the 'end all and be all' of things STO. Surely they will want feedback and an open partnership with their subscribers? It would be quite disconcerting to think that whatever they choose to do in STO is written in flaming letters on stone tablets for eternity :)




Only an omnipotent being could be definitively certain of objective fact. No human is omnipotent (as far as I know) at this stage in human development. As far as I can tell, those that claim godhood (like the Go'auld or the Ori in Stargate) and claim the final say in a given discussion are just false gods with delusions of self importance.

In real life, humans have the free will to disagree with anything, even the gods. Are you an omnipotent being Peregrine_Falcon? I know that I lay no claim to omnipotence myself. Are you the Profit of Cryptic come to deliver the gospel as revealed by your subjective interpretation of your own military service and the impressions ST made upon you? Are we just playing with words and endangering your comforting dogmatic beliefs about the nature of ST (as a military body) in what is obviously a fictional universe?

I honestly think that you and I can reach no consensus because you lay claim to objective fact while I argue subjectively to show you that fact itself is illusory IRL. I hesitate to take our discussion in this thread to metaphysical matters, because I fear that you would find that bucket far too subjective given your apparent objective view of reality. Yet I stand by my assertion that while Starfleet engages in military operations when necessary and has a Navy-style organization that it's function is not PRIMARILY MILITARY.

For the sake of continuing this excellent discussion...If I run outside guns blazing and shoot my neighbor then lay claim to his house...am I now a military because of my actions or merely a criminal? Imho, it depends on how others interpret my actions subjectively that determines if I acted militarily or criminally. Personally, I am pretty sure I would be considered a criminal and not prosecuted as a military insurgent because I am a US citizen and have no foreign ties.

Subjectively speaking, this disallows my consideration as 'an enemy combatant' until the sitting US president decides to declare me one and force false objectivity onto me to allow for military justice to to punish my actions. See how I can easily be subjectively redefined and have it passed off as objective fact? Kind of chilling if you stop to consider the implication that a temporary head of state has the right to define me objectively so that my supposed objective rights evaporate don't you think?

I think this debate between you two is utterly pointless and inane.


......but I didn't say stop:)

[Peregrine_Falcon]

I think this debate between you two is utterly pointless and inane.


......but I didn't say stop:)
I agree. This debate has become pointless.

You win DarkOrion69.

[overlordthor]

Starfleet is a military organization, built on many military principles, when it comes to how it is structured, it shares a lot in common with the Navy, travelling along many sectors, like a naval vessel would be assigned to travel around parts of the ocean, occasionally Navy ships do a little surveying and scientific work.

However, Starfleet likes to perform a lot of non-military things. Its also a diplomatic, science oriented, exploration oriented, so its more a organization based on military structures that performs many roles, but when its necessary most of the fleet fills the military combat related role in war times.

[DarkOrion69]

Well played sir, I also announce you the victor...anyone have some Romulan Ale we can bust open?:D

[decoy26517]

It was a joke, if you cannot figure out what it was then that's fine. Please do not try to patronize me, thank you.

LOL a little defensive aren't we?

Because most people seemed to have missed it:
of course Starfleet is the federations military. How else do you think the Federation keeps the proletariat in line?
Or kill people trying to defend their homes like the Maquis? Or do battle with the Klingons, Romulans, Dominion etc...
The Federation is evil.
See first line here: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Starfleet

[Sukhanh]

Let me put it this way.

This person protects you._ Is he/she your security guard?
This person transports you._Is he/she your bus driver?
This person Provides shelter._Is he/she your land lord?
This person cooks and cleans for you._Is he/she your chef?
This person Take up arms and put his/her life on the line if necessary_Is he/she your police?
This person goes to service. (Jury Duty)_ Is he/she your military?
This person gets to go to court when sued... not similar to Court martial but some what close._Did he/she do something wrong in an Military organization......

And who is this person? Father and Mother adapting to society.

Are they your security guards? YES
Are they your a bus driver? YES
Are they your land lord? YES
Are they your chef? YES
Are they their to protect you? I certain hope so.. YES
Are they in the Military? (Occupation N/A) NO
Does normal people get sued? Yes

(Edit.The Federation is the Federation) Star Fleet is Star Fleet so please lets not get things too complicated and talk roles. They are what they are, Governmental nor-mist that enforce and protect when necessary.

[Banar]

Let me put it this way.

This person protects you._ Is he/she your security guard?
This person transports you._Is he/she your bus driver?
This person Provides shelter._Is he/she your land lord?
This person cooks and cleans for you._Is he/she your chef?
This person Take up arms and put his/her life on the line if necessary_Is he/she your police?
This person goes to service. (Jury Duty)_ Is he/she your military?
This person gets to go to court when sued... not similar to Court martial but some what close._Did he/she do something wrong in an Military organization......

And who is this person? Father and Mother adapting to society.

Are they your security guards? YES
Are they your a bus driver? YES
Are they your land lord? YES
Are they your chef? YES
Are they their to protect you? I certain hope so.. YES
Are they in the Military? (Occupation N/A) NO
Does normal people get sued? Yes

The Federation is the Federation please lets not get things too complicated and talk roles. They are what they are, Governmental nor-mist that enforce and protect when necessary.

Why is occupation N/A? In times of war, parents join the military to fight for their children and their country. Children join to protect their parents and their country.

[Sukhanh]

=) Thank you Banor you got my point. Awesome!! Its under normal circumstance they are not military, which in fact what the federation dedication is. :):):):) U made me soo happy!!

[Banar]

=) you got my point. Awesome!! Its under normal circumstance they are not military hence they are not under normal circumstance which in fact what the federation dedication is. :):):):) U made me soo happy!!

The flaw is that The Federation does not equal Starfleet. Some parents are permanently in the military... less than 1% of the population in the US is in the Military. I'd wager it's about the same statistic for Starfleet.

The comparison would be Federation equals the Country, Starfleet equals that country's military.

[Sukhanh]

I agree on your logic as well. My apologies.. my typo when i wrote Federation on past post I meant to say Star Fleet.