Crew-Stress-System (not having shields/cloaking-device up all time)

[Nestro]

Hi guys. Just wanted to conserve this idea (originaly posted here (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=653010&postcount=43)) in an own thread:

The actual topic was about: "How not make the Klingons cloaking device lose its advantage, because you (as a federation Captain) can have your shields up all time for zero costs."

My suggestion on this is (because there must be a downside on keeping the shields up all the time for gamebalancing reasons, perhaps in neutral zone only, dont know):

You have a gauge for your crew. This gauge has two indication purposes:


it displays the stress comming from alert status (yellow, red)
it displays the number of crewmen available (alife)



I imagine it like this:

**Legend: [ nonstressed / stressed / dead ]



||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 100%/ 50 Crewmen

First number at the end is the relative effectiveness of the crew. Second number is the absolut amount of operational crewmen.

This is, where the ship has full crewmen service capabilities. (e.g. repairing speed at 100%)
No dead Crewman. (You have a fully colored (green, red) gauge)



||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 60%/ 50 Crewmen

Your crew is heavily stressed, but has not been fighting. (60% effectiveness, but no dead)
This might happen if you are on yellow, red alert for too long.

Loss of effectiveness should be increased (red alert > yellow alert) if you go on alert without encountering enemies within 5minutes. Implying that in the very first 5 minutes you will barely be stressed, but the longer you are waiting for an enemy, the higher the stress becomes. If the enemy finaly pops up, the increasment of stress will go back to normal* (assuming waiting for an enemy is more stress then directly fighting against him)

*this could be defined as zero (for "making it more fun" part of design, aka not adding another "downward spiral")


||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 60%/ 37 Crewmen

The crew allready has lots of stress (60% effectiveness only). Nearly 25% of crewmen dead (the gray part of the gauge indicates the relative amount of dead crewmen)


So as a klingon you just be a littlebit more patient, check if their shields are up and wait more then 5 Minutes.
(I think 5 minutes are ok. That gives both sides enough time to consider some tactics).

The stress will go back to zero if you cancel the alert. (medic bay might have an influence on this, but generaly if you have increased stress for X minutes then it will take X minutes to decrease stress to zero too.)

UPDATE 1: For klingons it works a littlebit different. They dont get stressed by beeing on red alert all time at all. (they are on red alert all time anyway). But their "moral" drops if you stay too long cloaked without attacking a close by enemy. This gives a better cloaking/shield-up balance.

This gives different options for stress/moral managment (Federation use councelors, KDF use "disciplinator"), so you can make a little virtual social game out of it. Like having speechbubbles which tells you something about the crews mood, and you activate responsible BO abilities...

UPDATE 2: "My" system works in the way, that you have "free" 5 minutes to do whatever you want without stressing your crew. I imagine there will be a counter. Going from 0:00min to 5:00min and turns red once it reaches a value higher then 5min. If you cancel alert / go out of cloaking within 5 minutes (without encounting an enemy) the current indicated time will count back to 0:00 again. (Prevents exploiting: turn of at 5min. and start at 0:00 when you immediately turn on the device again) If you encounter an enemy the counter will reset to 0:00.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its just a basic idea you can add lots of details to, and i am sure cryptic has considered something similar to this too.

Feel free to discuss now, and keep it civil :p

[cocoa-jin]

I like it, but whats the deterent to being on Red Alert all the time if the trade off in crew efefctivness is neutralized once you enter battle(if Im understanding the model correctly)?

I can see the response to combat neutralizing some of the stress, but not all of it. There should still be some level of effectivness lost...and as stated in the other post, after combat concludes, the previous stress level plus some should be immeadiatly heaped onto whatever level of effectivness remains after the fight(to some minimum level so the ship cant all but shut down right after combat due to too much lose).

The deterent is only a real deterent if it still applies when it really counts...during engagments and such. Just making it affect the crew while cruising around inbetween encounters when it doesnt matter results in it not being a real deterent.

[foshizle75]

Hi guys. Just wanted to conserve this idea (originaly posted here (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=653010&postcount=43)) in an own thread:

The actual topic was about: "How not make the Klingons cloaking device lose its advantage, because you (as a federation Captain) can have your shields up all time for zero costs."

My suggestion on this is (because there must be a downside on keeping the shields up all the time for gamebalancing reasons, perhaps in neutral zone only, dont know):


When I am not mistaking “Red alert or tactical alarm” can only be proclaimed when the ship is attacked or enters a dangerous zone.
So unless the scanner doesn’t show anything out of the ordinary or the captain takes his ship into a dangerous zone (PVP/Enemy territory perhaps) the commander in charge shouldn’t be able to activate the shields.

[revenantsoul]

I really like this idea. I think it needs tweaked a bit, but otherwise it would be a nice deterrent to keep people from running around with shields/cloaked all the time. It kind of reminds me of the neat system SWG had in play at one time that had people go to an entertainer to get rid of battle fatigue. I actually thought it was a good idea before they removed it.

[Telinous]

Great idea, after all the primarly underappreciated ability of a ship captain is to manage the morale of his ship, even in Star Trek this would not change as the Captain must maintain control both against hostile forces and from loosing the faith of his own crew.

[Nestro]

I like it, but whats the deterent to being on Red Alert all the time if the trade off in crew efefctivness is neutralized once you enter battle(if Im understanding the model correctly)?
.

Please reread. It doesn't say "neutralize", it says, increasment of stress will go back to normal, where normal can mean zero, or another constant. Meaning, you build more stress if your shields/cloaking-devices are up without fighting then when you only turn on your shields/cloaks within 5minutes before encountering an enemy. Stress will only be neutralized (over time*) by canceling the alert (go out of combat) and rest for a while, or by aplying some special abilities of your BOs and such.

*without special abilities the resttime should be the same as the stress-building time.

[Nestro]

I really like this idea. I think it needs tweaked a bit, but otherwise it would be a nice deterrent to keep people from running around with shields/cloaked all the time. It kind of reminds me of the neat system SWG had in play at one time that had people go to an entertainer to get rid of battle fatigue. I actually thought it was a good idea before they removed it.

Thanks for your liking. Indeed it all needs balance (like nearly every part of the game that has a gameplay impact). I see this system as a great candidate for beta-testing.

[Nestro]

When I am not mistaking “Red alert or tactical alarm” can only be proclaimed when the ship is attacked or enters a dangerous zone.


Exactly thats the point of my idea. Neutrale zone is considered as a dangerous zone. (For the case anyone missed it: it's primarily about balancing PvP = Federation vs. Klingon Empire)

[cocoa-jin]

Please reread. It doesn't say "neutralize", it says, increasment of stress will go back to normal, where normal can mean zero, or another constant. Meaning, you build more stress if your shields/cloaking-devices are up without fighting then when you only turn on your shields/cloaks within 5minutes before encountering an enemy. Stress will only be neutralized (over time*) by canceling the alert (go out of combat) and rest for a while, or by aplying some special abilities of your BOs and such.

*without special abilities the resttime should be the same as the stress-building time.

Ah, ok, so the rate of stress accumalation will go back to "normal"...mis-understood you there...then we are in agreement.

Now Im not so sure I agree with the Klingon model. Being cloaked too long without combat affecting morale doesn seem to correlate to me. I can see being in hostile space too long without an engagement affecting Klingon crew, making them ansty and more prone to mistakes, reducng effectivness, etc during the initial encounter(like jumping the gun). This hinders their inherit advantage of pre-emptive strikes when coming out of cloak, but as the plays out, they'd ramp back up to full effectivness. Ther eis no need to make these cew dynamics the same...then it removes the sense of difference between the two.

Second, hindering Klingon morale while cloaked, is like hindering Fed morale because they hae to wait too long to explore a nearby planet.

The Klingon cloak, in my mind, is too much an intergral tool in their tactical and strategic philosophy. They would understand and appreciate the need to lay in wait for the right opportunity to strike...because that is how they are set up to operate...thats part of the hunt. Now if the prey escapes before they can find the opening to attack...then that would likly affect them.

But I'd encourage you not to try and make too much of a directly paralleling model...keep it unique as much as possible.

[Nestro]

Ah, ok, so the rate of stress accumalation will go back to "normal"...mis-understood you there...then we are in agreement.

Now Im not so sure I agree with the Klingon model. Being cloaked too long without combat affecting morale doesn seem to correlate to me. I can see being in hostile space too long without an engagement affecting Klingon crew, making them ansty and more prone to mistakes, reducng effectivness, etc during the initial encounter(like jumping the gun). This hinders their inherit advantage of pre-emptive strikes when coming out of cloak, but as the plays out, they'd ramp back up to full effectivness. Ther eis no need to make these cew dynamics the same...then it removes the sense of difference between the two.

Second, hindering Klingon morale while cloaked, is like hindering Fed morale because they hae to wait too long to explore a nearby planet.

The Klingon cloak, in my mind, is too much an intergral tool in their tactical and strategic philosophy. They would understand and appreciate the need to lay in wait for the right opportunity to strike...because that is how they are set up to operate...thats part of the hunt. Now if the prey escapes before they can find the opening to attack...then that would likly affect them.

But I'd encourage you not to try and make too much of a directly paralleling model...keep it unique as much as possible.

I am not sure if you misunderstood me again, so i will just try to make it clear. It says: "their "moral" drops if you stay too long cloaked without attacking a close by enemy."
Meaning, you can stay cloaked as long as you want unless an enemy is close by. If you force your crew to wait to long until you attack, they will get annoyed about the leading style of the current captain. No Klingon wants to be percieved as a coward.

And another point: "My" system works in the way, that you have "free" 5 minutes to do whatever you want without stressing your crew. I imagine there will be a counter. Going from 0:00min to 5:00min and turns red once it reaches a value higher then 5min. If you cancel alert / go out of cloaking within 5 minutes (without encounting an enemy) the current indicated time will count back to 0:00 again. (Prevents exploiting: turn of at 5min. and start at 0:00 when you immediately turn on the device again) If you encounter an enemy the counter will reset to 0:00.

I'll better update my first post :p

Edit: About uniqueness. I think it is, if you consider the big difference of gameplay it effects. You can stay cloaked as long as you want (hunting possible) unless you "find" a victim. I see no parallelsim here, or what would be the Federations counterpart? I can fly around without turning my shields on, as long as i want? :D
Perhaps i missed a point? :confused:

Edit2: Dont forget. I suggested something else too. A crew-managment system. This can be used to underline a unique playstile for each fraction. If you see (as a Klingon) lots of enemies in your vicinity, which makes you want to take a littlebit more time to choose your target wisely, you could use a special ability of your diciplinator-BO to make your crew calm down (e.g. direct reduction of the time indicated by the stress-timer). And of course i can think of a method which increases the timelimit. Perhaps it would be more likely for Klingons to increase the timelimit than for the Federation. As usual, all a balance issue.
On the other hand there might be possibilities to detect/"better mask" cloaking, which would have an influence to this timing-issue too.

I still have loads of ideas in my head, but i do not want to prevent you from reading, by giving you too much details aka a wall of text right from the start. Makes discussion way more interesting :p

[cocoa-jin]

I am not sure if you misunderstood me again, so i will just try to make it clear. It says: "their "moral" drops if you stay too long cloaked without attacking a close by enemy."
Meaning, you can stay cloaked as long as you want unless an enemy is close by. If you force your crew to wait to long until you attack, they will get annoyed about the leading style of the current captain. No Klingon wants to be percieved as a coward.

And another point: "My" system works in the way, that you have "free" 5 minutes to do whatever you want without stressing your crew. I imagine there will be a counter. Going from 0:00min to 5:00min and turns red once it reaches a value higher then 5min. If you cancel alert / go out of cloaking within 5 minutes (without encounting an enemy) the current indicated time will count back to 0:00 again. (Prevents exploiting: turn of at 5min. and start at 0:00 when you immediately turn on the device again) If you encounter an enemy the counter will reset to 0:00.

I'll better update my first post :p

Edit: About uniqueness. I think it is, if you consider the big difference of gameplay it effects. You can stay cloaked as long as you want (hunting possible) unless you "find" a victim. I see no parallelsim here, or what would be the Federations counterpart? I can fly around without turning my shields on, as long as i want? :D
Perhaps i missed a point? :confused:

Edit2: Dont forget. I suggested something else too. A crew-managment system. This can be used to underline a unique playstile for each fraction. If you see (as a Klingon) lots of enemies in your vicinity, which makes you want to take a littlebit more time to choose your target wisely, you could use a special ability of your diciplinator-BO to make your crew calm down (e.g. direct reduction of the time indicated by the stress-timer). And of course i can think of a method which increases the timelimit. Perhaps it would be more likely for Klingons to increase the timelimit than for the Federation. As usual, all a balance issue.
On the other hand there might be possibilities to detect/"better mask" cloaking, which would have an influence to this timing-issue too.

I still have loads of ideas in my head, but i do not want to prevent you from reading, by giving you too much details aka a wall of text right from the start. Makes discussion way more interesting :p

I guess I see the Klingons only being affected negativly if the close by target gets away. The 5mins thing forces the "hunt" to progress to the attack too artificially...it forces tactics and strategy into a too narrow and predictable choice of action. Instead, I see the hunter savoring the hunt, the stalking, the set up, the ambush. Aslong as the hunter is activly pursuing the prey he is ok...its when you spend all that time and energy only to miss your chance is when you are effected negativly...in this case morale.

So I dont see the issue being cloaked and too close and/or too long near an enemy, its missing the opportunity to bring the attack to a conclusion that is the negative stimulus. Being close is just part of the process...just like taking one's time to move into position, and waiting for the right time to strike.

I then see being in the hunting ground without engaging prey over a prolonged period of time would create a negative impact, not morale necessarily, but in execution. Just like a hunter spending the whole weekend never seeing a buck, if he is too impatient, fixated and perhaps desperate, he is more incline to make a mistake, step on a stick, move to aggressivly, fire too early.

So what is the Federation counter-part?...there doesnt have to be a counter-part, thats the idea of keeping it faction unique. Create appropriate affects to crew morale and performance that is applicable to the faction...independent of the other faction. I would assume no side should have significantly more or less than these affects compared to the other faction.

[EremiticWolf]

I'd say wait till you play the game and see how everything works before you try to change things.

besides, who is going to keep their shields up all the time, unless you are in hostile territory?

[cocoa-jin]

I'd say wait till you play the game and see how everything works before you try to change things.

Generally thats when its too late. Its not so much trying change anything...to be honest we dont know enough about much of anything to be trying to change it. Instead, these are more concepts and directions we'd like to see(if and when it can be done).

It also acts as putting the industry and genre on notice for portions of the consumer base is looking for with regards to future developments.

I see these forums as fertile grounds for concepts, ideas, etc for future development. These forums go well beyond just STO.

You cant wait until the current office is vacated to start your campaign to occupy it next.

[EremiticWolf]

Generally thats when its too late. .

Not all the time, just look how many times they changed SWG.


I myself am not going to fly through space with my shields up all the time. Only and only when I enter hostile territory will I raise my shields. So I don't see what the problems is. A good Captain being Klingon or Federation will never drop his shields in hostile territory.

[cocoa-jin]

Not all the time, just look how many times they changed SWG.


I myself am not going to fly through space with my shields up all the time. Only and only when I enter hostile territory will I raise my shields. So I don't see what the problems is. A good Captain being Klingon or Federation will never drop his shields in hostile territory.

Some consider the drastic changes, especially because they whenso drastically in a different direction than what was established, is one of the main reasons why SWG failed.

Drastic changes, when moving in the same direction of the established model, can be seen more as improvements and maturation of what people have alreadt come to love and accept. But when it is in a different direction...its just seen as a disruption.

SWGs mistake wasnt the changes, had they went those routes from the beginning it likly would have been ok. The problem was alienating so many so late after release. Its better to establish a direction first, and once accepted by the player base, then pursue development to further mature the model or mechanics toward that long term goal.

But just springing a new game on people well into its release is problematic.

[EremiticWolf]

I just don't see what the problem is if a captain wants to keep his shields up all the time in hostile territory. The Klingon ship has a cloak, even if the federations shields are up, still gives a slight advantage to the Klingon captain because he/she can start the battle anytime he/she wishes. I do understand that while the cloak is on, the Klingon ship can't fire and doesn't have shields. A way to counter that is by this time, the Klingons have found a way to raise the shields as the cloak is coming down, also let them fire as they are decloaking. I don't care who you are, seeing a Klingon ship decloak is going to surprise you for a few seconds, enough time for the shields to go up on the Klingon ship, it‘s also going to take some time for the Federation ship to lock weapons and return fire.

Federation crew members like today’s military will have been taught how to manage stress. That is where your training takes over. Whether you are fighting, or just waiting for something to happen.

[cocoa-jin]

I just don't see what the problem is if a captain wants to keep his shields up all the time in hostile territory. The Klingon ship has a cloak, even if the federations shields are up, still gives a slight advantage to the Klingon captain because he/she can start the battle anytime he/she wishes. I do understand that while the cloak is on, the Klingon ship can't fire and doesn't have shields. A way to counter that is by this time, the Klingons have found a way to raise the shields as the cloak is coming down, also let them fire as they are decloaking. I don't care who you are, seeing a Klingon ship decloak is going to surprise you for a few seconds, enough time for the shields to go up on the Klingon ship, it‘s also going to take some time for the Federation ship to lock weapons and return fire.

Federation crew members like today’s military will have been taught how to manage stress. That is where your training takes over. Whether you are fighting, or just waiting for something to happen.

I dont think its an issue of crew morlae with just shields up in hostile territory...i think thats absolutly expected. But it would and should cause increased maintenance and resource consumption(material and manpower) to keep them up...but nothing too deterimental.

The morale issue is for running at Red Alert all the time in any situtation outside of hostile engagments. That would affect morale, rest, crew effectiveness, etc.

[EremiticWolf]

The morale issue is for running at Red Alert all the time in any situtation outside of hostile engagments. That would affect morale, rest, crew effectiveness, etc.

I understand now, so while in a hostile engagment, the crew moral monitor "shuts down". Since they would be thinking of staying alive. :D

[cocoa-jin]

I understand now, so while in a hostile engagment, the crew moral monitor "shuts down". Since they would be thinking of staying alive. :D

Welcome aboard ;)