PvP Concern

[Marytha]

I have a concern that has occurred to me. I know I know, I’m not a PvPer, though I do try it out in every game I play that has it. This game is touted as FvF. We have PvP, PvE, and competitive PvE., as far as I know. We have two sides, Federation and Klingon. People have been under the assumption that the Federation will outnumber the Klingons, perhaps significantly. Many people are also under the assumption that fewer Federation players will PvP, and more Klingon players will PvP thus perhaps narrowing the gap. I agree with these assumptions.

Thus I have a fear that if Cryptic does not service the PvPers, that the game will collapse. Believe me I don’t want to boost PvPers.  However, please follow my logic, before destroying me. Should PvP be inadequate, what will happen? Some PvPers will leave, decreasing the number of people PvPing, making PvP scarcer, and thus driving more PvPers away. Now, normally I wouldn’t concern myself, however does this mean that if PvP is implemented poorly, the game will collapse? Well, if 80% of PvPers leave the game, and 70% of Klingons are PvPers, what happens to the Klingon Faction? What happens to Competitive PvE? Does this send more people away, finishing the game off?

To this end, some PvPers are concerned that the combat is ‘simpler, dumber, less interesting, etc.’ should this become a priority for everyone (sighs sadly, I wish I wasn’t saying this).
What do you think?

Marytha

P.S. I swear I’m not a closet PvPer

[inXi]

PvP better be adequate. Especially considering the Klingons. If my dad (who is very battle-hungry) goes to play STO and finds out that PvP sucks the game is dead for him... so, basically, I agree with you.

I just, quite honestly, don't know how to make PvP in a MMORPG fun.

[dru_mcd]

I think that's an interesting take on the issue. :)
Wish I had something constructive to add to it ... :o

[Commander_Nate]

If PvP sucks and is meaningless, I definitely won't be around long. The exception to this is if PvE and exploration are so ridiculously amazing that I end up not caring about PvP. I highly doubt they'll be able to do that and it would probably require more work than just making PvP good.

[Starchild]

If they make the PvP game something the PvP types like, they've done something wrong.

[DanSeale]

If PvP sucks and is meaningless, I definitely won't be around long. The exception to this is if PvE and exploration are so ridiculously amazing that I end up not caring about PvP. I highly doubt they'll be able to do that and it would probably require more work than just making PvP good.

I'm sure that the PvP matches themself will be good .. the question that has been discussed in several different forms ... is how to make the "combat" itself entertaining. This includes maneuving, weapons fire, speed, and other related items

[Kairutk]

I think that the definging factor in PvP will be where your fighting. yea it would be fun to fight in open space but the thrill will come shooting it out in an astroid feild, or playing hide and seek in a gas cloud. the other issue will be the epicness. 20 VS. 20 things like that I think will make PVP PVP.

[DanSeale]

I think that the definging factor in PvP will be where your fighting. yea it would be fun to fight in open space but the thrill will come shooting it out in an astroid feild, or playing hide and seek in a gas cloud. the other issue will be the epicness. 20 VS. 20 things like that I think will make PVP PVP.

I rather suspect we'll see PvP in all sorts of areas .. as I understand what we've been told thus far.

[Kairutk]

I mean al along the nutural zone is PVP free, unless you tag yourself. now I would think they may have set skirmishes along the nutural zone that may end up being like PVP instances in wow.

[renderpix]

If they make the PvP game something the PvP types like, they've done something wrong.

True the more they try to make something to fit the more they miss the point. But spoken like a true PvEer. I won't use the term CareBear ...... oops :p

For PvP they just need to give the movement/tactical the PvPer will do the rest. If PvP lacks made to simple I think it will drive away the PvP crowd. But making PvP too simple will only make the carebears feel the crunch when they venture to where they are not safe.

As for the game failing due to this. I don't think it will even if it truns out to be a complete piece of trash. People will play it but the PvPers will go elsewhere for a better experience gankers will stay. So far I see Cryptic limiting PvP and limits and restrictions makes anything worse :eek:

Making an MMO too PvE has always been bad why else do you want to play with others Online. If the PvE experience is all that is needed then just network Desktop games. But so far STO does not look to offer a PvP enviorment that would suite me and that is just sad for such an IP :(

[Loekii]

I don't see STO as a FvF game (like DoAC or WAR), but rather more like a PVE game like WoW.

So as a PvPer, I look at PVP in STO from a PVP-WoW perspective, rather than a WAR perspective.

At best, I expect it to look like a WoW PvE server, with a few 'zones' being PvP, rather than being an expansive FvF game where you have fleets attacking Vulcan, or Gorn.

PvP will be limited to some aspects of the Neutral zone and some far off zones (FAQ), which implies that most of the STO map will be PVE (hoping that we can a at least choose to flag in those areas).

Until we actually see their 'competitive PvE and Neutral Zone contesting system for planets', I am not putting much stock that this is going to be some system that will surpass WoW and WAR, and put STO on the PVPers radar.

And Zinc has been rather clear that you will never be 'forced' into PvP.

If we are lucky, STO may present some fun PvP, but it certainly is not going to be innovative or ground breaking.

[rjc_foxtrot]

I don't think the Federation/Klingon populations will be as unbalanced as some think they will be. The interest amongst folks that I've interacted with seems to be pretty evenly split so far. People usually will go with whatever appeals to them the most. Sure there will be servers that have populations that favor one side more than the other (assuming we're not all on one server as Jack Emmert is leaning towards in the web cast), but I'd bet the overall population will be pretty even. Most MMO's that have multiple factions tend to have an 'about' even split between their factions such as Warhammer Online and World of Warcraft.

PvP is something I do enjoy myself from time to time when I'm with a couple of buddies and we're charging off to assist the main crowd or are defending a point. But overall, there needs to be a goal in mind for the PvP activity to be worthwhile. Whether that goal be to accumulate honor points, reknown, claim areas of space for bonuses, etc., it needs to be there. Otherwise it raises the question of "What's the point?"

So there needs to be a reward given, which it's been mentioned that territory on either side of the zone will change loyalties. That may open up more content for either side, open opportunities to strike into the opposing faction's territory, etc.

[Marytha]

Okay let me attempt to rephrase a bit.

In my limited discussions with people play to PvP, i.e. that is their most important part of the game, it seems, most MMOs are not for them. This meaning the PvP is not good enough for them to keep playing.

If the Klingon faction is loaded with th PvPers, our estimates from most are coming from the fleet recruitment threads I believe. Should the game be as Loekii has described it, a PvE game with some PvP, will any PvPers stay? If they all jump ship, will that percipitate a huge shift in faction population, leading to a mostly one faction game.

I'm planning on playing the Klingon side, if after two months, the PvPers have left, will I ever find a pick up group? Would that spell the end of the Faction, i.e. no one plays Klingon side, so no one starts playing Klingon side?

Am i making any sense?

Marytha

[Loekii]

Okay let me attempt to rephrase a bit.

In my limited discussions with people play to PvP, i.e. that is their most important part of the game, it seems, most MMOs are not for them. This meaning the PvP is not good enough for them to keep playing.

If the Klingon faction is loaded with th PvPers, our estimates from most are coming from the fleet recruitment threads I believe. Should the game be as Loekii has described it, a PvE game with some PvP, will any PvPers stay? If they all jump ship, will that percipitate a huge shift in faction population, leading to a mostly one faction game.

I'm planning on playing the Klingon side, if after two months, the PvPers have left, will I ever find a pick up group? Would that spell the end of the Faction, i.e. no one plays Klingon side, so no one starts playing Klingon side?

Am i making any sense?

Marytha

I think I understand you, but let me know what I misunderstand.

Firstly, I don't think PVP is the ONLY attraction for the Klingon side. Yes I think there will be more Fed Players over all, but I don't think Klingons will be a deserted faction, by any measure. Klingon PvErs will always have other Klingon PvErs to group with, for the most part.

Secondly, imo, I think some PvPers are looking for a 'holy grail' of PvP -- an unattainable system. It seems every system out there has its flaws - DoAC, EQ, WAR, UO, Eve, etc. So while some PvPers might enjoy the system, others will not. It really is a case of only being able to please one group, but not another.

Overall, the key element will be if players find the game enjoyable to play over he long haul (ie months). If the PvE gameplay is enjoyable enough, you will get PvPers that will over look short comings in the pvp system (ie look at those that still play WoW, etc).

I don't think STO has anything to worry about if they do not capture the PvPers because of the PvP system. They need to worry when they wont capture them because overall the game is just not enjoyable.

[Marytha]

:)

sorry i guess i feel like i'm channeling Flatfingers or something, no offence. Just seems to me if your main reason for playing the game 'sucks (choose animal) (choose genetalia) you leave, no matter how awesome the rest may be, it is never enough to over come the badness of your play preference.

This came up because it seems, that the majority of Klingon players are way into the PvP, not all of course, but a great deal. It also seems that once PvP starts to drop, it becomes self fulfilling, i.e. less people are PvPing, making the PvP even worse, etc.

I can't speak to it as I don't count myself a PvPer, I would like PvPers to chime and let me know. If the PvP is mediocre do stay, or go? Are most of you Klingon (which it appears)? What are the things that PvPers in a game? (obviously it wasn't nipples Conan showed us that. ;) )

Marytha

[Loekii]

I think that is only true for the Diehard/Hardcore PvPer.

There are many 'softer' PvPers, that play for the PVE game as well (part of the complaint I am hearing about WAR - not a strong PvE game).

The thing is, if the PvP sucks, combat is too simplistic, gross MTs, lack luster content, etc, and PvPers will leave.

Very few people will ignore say 5 major flaws with any game.

[moessner]

I have a concern that has occurred to me. I know I know, I’m not a PvPer, though I do try it out in every game I play that has it. This game is touted as FvF. We have PvP, PvE, and competitive PvE., as far as I know. We have two sides, Federation and Klingon. People have been under the assumption that the Federation will outnumber the Klingons, perhaps significantly. Many people are also under the assumption that fewer Federation players will PvP, and more Klingon players will PvP thus perhaps narrowing the gap. I agree with these assumptions.

Thus I have a fear that if Cryptic does not service the PvPers, that the game will collapse. Believe me I don’t want to boost PvPers.  However, please follow my logic, before destroying me. Should PvP be inadequate, what will happen? Some PvPers will leave, decreasing the number of people PvPing, making PvP scarcer, and thus driving more PvPers away. Now, normally I wouldn’t concern myself, however does this mean that if PvP is implemented poorly, the game will collapse? Well, if 80% of PvPers leave the game, and 70% of Klingons are PvPers, what happens to the Klingon Faction? What happens to Competitive PvE? Does this send more people away, finishing the game off?

To this end, some PvPers are concerned that the combat is ‘simpler, dumber, less interesting, etc.’ should this become a priority for everyone (sighs sadly, I wish I wasn’t saying this).
What do you think?

Marytha

P.S. I swear I’m not a closet PvPer


ahhh pvp players do not make up the bulk of players....sorry to say

[moessner]

:)

sorry i guess i feel like i'm channeling Flatfingers or something, no offence. Just seems to me if your main reason for playing the game 'sucks (choose animal) (choose genetalia) you leave, no matter how awesome the rest may be, it is never enough to over come the badness of your play preference.

This came up because it seems, that the majority of Klingon players are way into the PvP, not all of course, but a great deal. It also seems that once PvP starts to drop, it becomes self fulfilling, i.e. less people are PvPing, making the PvP even worse, etc.

I can't speak to it as I don't count myself a PvPer, I would like PvPers to chime and let me know. If the PvP is mediocre do stay, or go? Are most of you Klingon (which it appears)? What are the things that PvPers in a game? (obviously it wasn't nipples Conan showed us that. ;) )

Marytha

well we have alot of members in RS that are all gunning for PVP with the klingies :) and i know alot from Omega will be too with us :)

[CaptainTate]

PvP'ers tend to make up a minority of players. If you're a fan of trek(and te game doesn't suck) you'll play if not you won't. Several games have token PvP (DDO and CoH) and do well enough.

[Marytha]

PvP'ers tend to make up a minority of players. If you're a fan of trek(and te game doesn't suck) you'll play if not you won't. Several games have token PvP (DDO and CoH) and do well enough.

Yes, but if that minority is the majority of Klingon players, it could be a problem, couldn't it? I also would say if the game doesn't suck you don'tneed to be a star trek to play the game, which is what you are implying.

Marytha

[Messer_Macheath]

:)

sorry i guess i feel like i'm channeling Flatfingers or something, no offence. Just seems to me if your main reason for playing the game 'sucks (choose animal) (choose genetalia) you leave, no matter how awesome the rest may be, it is never enough to over come the badness of your play preference.

This came up because it seems, that the majority of Klingon players are way into the PvP, not all of course, but a great deal. It also seems that once PvP starts to drop, it becomes self fulfilling, i.e. less people are PvPing, making the PvP even worse, etc.

I can't speak to it as I don't count myself a PvPer, I would like PvPers to chime and let me know. If the PvP is mediocre do stay, or go? Are most of you Klingon (which it appears)? What are the things that PvPers in a game? (obviously it wasn't nipples Conan showed us that. ;) )

Marytha

I would leave, undoubtedly. While I enjoy the PvE aspect of games very much, and I completely understand, and support, the fact that you can't just PvP anywhere (the Federation, at least, is quite peaceful most of the time), I will likely not be playing this game if the PvP is terrible, or so limited that it's impossible to find. I'll play the story for a while, but I can guarantee you I'll eventually get bored of the PvE content and want to move on. PvP is what keeps me logging in once I've hit the higher levels, or once I've hit "repeatable" content like end-game raids. If the PvP system isn't where I want it to be, I simply will not feel the need to log in and play, and will move on to one of the other games out there that holds my interest.

Now, that being said, I will be playing Federation, and so me not logging in will likely help balance the factions, from the sounds of things. No harm done. ;)

-Macheath.

[Zepath]

Let me start out by saying, I AM A PvP'er. I started in WoW on FrostWolf (open PvP server), ended on Frostmane (open PvP server) after about 4 years. I went to AoC from there on one of their open PvP servers, and after that game failed, I moved to Warhammer Online. I play just about every FPS multiplayer game out there and my favorite non-subscription game right now is Team Fortress II. I LOVE PvP.

That said, PvP players are like crack addicts. They come into the game with the "gimme gimme gimme" attitude. They want it made all about them, they want the game all about PvP, they want the uber drops, they want the uber guns, they want the uber weapons .... and then, no matter how much the companies give in and do just that ... within a year or two, the PvP player has moved on to the next new "high".

Developers know this ... this is why FPS developers go for the unit sales and don't even bother with a monthly subscription model.

Think I'm wrong? Think about it ... Quake, Rainbow Six, Tribes, Star-seige, Unreal Tournament, Halo, Counter-Strike, Team Fortress, Battlefield 1942, Far Cry, Call of Duty .... these are just some of the more successful ones. And with the exception of maybe Counter-Strike, they got their year (or maybe a little more) before the crack addicts abandoned them and moved on to their next new high.

Yes, sometimes that new high was a sequel but usually that sequel was an attempt to get back the players and sell more units.

I don't want Star Trek Online to be a one or two year game. I want to be playing it 4 or 5 years. More if Cryptic can keep the interest there. I want it to be sooo successful that other Developers say, "Oh ^%$#! There is money to be made in a non-D&D, non-FPS game!" I want it to be so successful that some company out there starts working on the next Space MMO that makes Eve and STO look like pikers.

And you aren't going to get that if you build this game around PvP.

[Marytha]

Let me start out by saying, I AM A PvP'er. I started in WoW on FrostWolf (open PvP server), ended on Frostmane (open PvP server) after about 4 years. I went to AoC from there on one of their open PvP servers, and after that game failed, I moved to Warhammer Online. I play just about every FPS multiplayer game out there and my favorite non-subscription game right now is Team Fortress II. I LOVE PvP.

That said, PvP players are like crack addicts. They come into the game with the "gimme gimme gimme" attitude. They want it made all about them, they want the game all about PvP, they want the uber drops, they want the uber guns, they want the uber weapons .... and then, no matter how much the companies give in and do just that ... within a year or two, the PvP player has moved on to the next new "high".

Developers know this ... this is why FPS developers go for the unit sales and don't even bother with a monthly subscription model.

Think I'm wrong? Think about it ... Quake, Rainbow Six, Tribes, Star-seige, Unreal Tournament, Halo, Counter-Strike, Team Fortress, Battlefield 1942, Far Cry, Call of Duty .... these are just some of the more successful ones. And with the exception of maybe Counter-Strike, they got their year (or maybe a little more) before the crack addicts abandoned them and moved on to their next new high.

Yes, sometimes that new high was a sequel but usually that sequel was an attempt to get back the players and sell more units.

I don't want Star Trek Online to be a one or two year game. I want to be playing it 4 or 5 years. More if Cryptic can keep the interest there. I want it to be sooo successful that other Developers say, "Oh ^%$#! There is money to be made in a non-D&D, non-FPS game!" I want it to be so successful that some company out there makes the next space game that makes Eve and STO look like pikers.

And you aren't going to get that if you build this game around PvP.

Given all that do think my concern is valid? That in 6 months a lot of PvPers are gone, crippling half of the game?

Maybe not cater to PvPers, but make certain their exodus doesn't cause said crippling of the Klingon faction. *shrugs* I don't know that's why it's concern to me.

Marytha