Ablative armor

[cpt_Dimmick]

Will there be ablative hull plating in STO? No matter how rare or unlikely it is, do you think that it may be put into the game. At the end of Voyager, they were outfited with this plating from the future. So since it is years into the future of the startrek universe, wouldn't the federation have had time to replicate the technology?

Thoughts, ideas?

[Reinkaos]

Ablative hulls will definitely be in the game I think, if not a standard part of all ships - it was on the Defiant and Prometheus, and I can only see them expanding the inclusion of ablative hulls onto refit ships, and into the designs of new ships - the NX-91001 (http://www.startrekonline.com/node/137) appears to have ablative hull plating.

The starship features an ablative tetraburnium alloy hull, which allows it to withstand greater amounts of heat and pressure than any previous design

With that said, weapons technology will have significantly progressed too, so the returns of the hull plating might be diminishing.

Voyager's ablative hull armour (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Ablative_generator)was a different thing, and I can't really see this being in the game as we've seen it (unless perhaps in a special episode), because it would be kind of overpowered. I can see it being back-engineered and made into new improved ablative hull plating (i.e significantly better than what the Defiant and Prometheus had).. I just hope that either Klingons get the same tech, or improved weaponry to counter the Federation's improved defences.

[MajorD]

As above, it's in the game. I hope it's an upgrade for ships that don't come with it, in the same way how vehicles in real life can have such things added.

Actually, I hope for ground combat that we will be able to get ablative body armor, and for it to act as a costume element.

[Reinkaos]

As above, it's in the game. I hope it's an upgrade for ships that don't come with it, in the same way how vehicles in real life can have such things added.

Actually, I hope for ground combat that we will be able to get ablative body armor, and for it to act as a costume element.

Nice idea :D could it be an option that we could take instead of personal shields, perhaps? It would be another customisable thing that Cryptic could boast about - personal shields might be less bulky/weighty, but may be less reliable or prone to interference from a skilled science officer, whereas personal ablative armour might be more reliable but can take less damage.

[Tribbler]

Hah,

The ablative armor with all it's power is going to be defeated.

As history has proven, as soon as a new weapon or new armor is revealed, the counterraction is always put into production.

So here we are again, a new armor and a new type beam to cut through it.

[Reinkaos]

Hah,

The ablative armor with all it's power is going to be defeated.

As history has proven, as soon as a new weapon or new armor is revealed, the counterraction is always put into production.

So here we are again, a new armor and a new type beam to cut through it.

On and on the dance goes :p

[Johenric]

I don't mind having better armor but the "Batman Car" armor that voyager got was horrific. Ablative armor is fine but please don't make if look like the batmobile.

[MajorD]

Nice idea :D could it be an option that we could take instead of personal shields, perhaps? It would be another customisable thing that Cryptic could boast about - personal shields might be less bulky/weighty, but may be less reliable or prone to interference from a skilled science officer, whereas personal ablative armour might be more reliable but can take less damage.
Nothing like that, it would just be another layer of defense that is always on, for if they don't want one hit kills once personal shields are shot down. Everyone should be able to wear it without training, it is just a peace of clothing. Not that shields should need training, you just wear those, too.

[Reinkaos]

Nothing like that, it would just be another layer of defense that is always on, for if they don't want one hit kills once personal shields are shot down. Everyone should be able to wear it without training, it is just a peace of clothing. Not that shields should need training, you just wear those, too.
Would you really rather less diversity and less choice in the types of equipment and defenses available to you? :( Where will it end, if there's always another layer of defense? :rolleyes: Instead of having personal armour beneath personal shielding, why not just increase the personal shielding's power limit and be done with it?

There's no point in having another type of body armour unless it's discernably different but still viable, i.e personal ablative armour, so if we were to get this body armour in STO, it should be as an alternative to personal shielding.

It might just be a piece of clothing, but it still requires maintenance and upkeep, like anything else, even personal shields.

[MajorD]

Would you really rather less diversity and less choice in the types of equipment and defenses available to you? :( Where will it end, if there's always another layer of defense? :rolleyes: Instead of having personal armour beneath personal shielding, why not just increase the personal shielding's power limit and be done with it?

There's no point in having another type of body armour unless it's discernably different but still viable, i.e personal ablative armour, so if we were to get this body armour in STO, it should be as an alternative to personal shielding.

It might just be a piece of clothing, but it still requires maintenance and upkeep, like anything else, even personal shields.
It would be adding equipment and diversity because you can wear them how you please in different combination. Being able to layer defenses in no way reduces choices but increases them, to do otherwise artificially reduces your choices.

You wouldn't always have another layer of defense, it would be a second layer, and after that there wouldn't be anything else, unless the basic uniform has basic resistance. It is not as if you could wear ten armored layers just because each layer is a different type of clothing. The difference would be that an armor vest or suit is always active, no matter what, the shield takes power just being on, yes tricks can also be played on shields although it isn't common. You could add more batteries to your shield or another emitter, but I would still like to have an armor vest if I can carry it. Also, armor would fail only locally, based on per limb basis or spots within the limbs. A shield would take damage in its entirety no matter the angle, unless it has arcs, but then that's directional damage rather than shot placement. Of course, the game isn't going to have any twitch mechanics, so shot placement wouldn't be able to be worked into armor except as a random value.

Someone trained in armor maintenance would perform repairs, you wouldn't do them yourselves anymore than a police officer or soldier would repair his own armor, unless it's no different than switching out ceramic plates. But, for just wearing a vest you don't need any sort of maintenance. Special training for armor would make sense for a really fancy suit, such as a completely sealed powered exoskeleton.

I genuinely hope the basic crewmen have skills that can be exploited for menial tasks and not just the bridge officers.

[Reinkaos]

It would be adding equipment and diversity because you can wear them how you please in different combination. Being able to layer defenses in no way reduces choices but increases them, to do otherwise artificially reduces your choices. In a sense, until players find out it significantly increases your defence, what would stop ground combat from becoming a simple matter of someone having the most defence/resilience, if they were stackable? It reduces choice for players as it would make them feel herded into taking that cul-de-sac.

I believe offering it as an equivalent (ie making you decide between the certain advantages and disadvantages of types of armour, weighing the pros and cons of each) would increase your choices as players wouldn't feel herded into feeling like they must have the most defence/health they can get to stay competitive in ground PVP, and there would be an equal and fair choice between things. No plate vs cloth scenarios as we'd all be in comparative armours, with our slight tweaks, and no ridiculously high health pools or crazy damage dissipation.

You wouldn't always have another layer of defense, it would be a second layer, and after that there wouldn't be anything else, unless the basic uniform has basic resistance. It is not as if you could wear ten armored layers just because each layer is a different type of clothing. Why not, if you can already wear two types? Have a special tpe of undergarment called nanoarmour or something. STO's mithril. You should be able to pick from a variety of armours but only be able to wear one at a time, I think :) Also, having two layers of armour is pointless - why not just extend the amount of armour/health/defence/whatever provided by the original armour and be done with it? It would be pretty annoying to have to kill a guy twice twice :D

The difference would be that an armor vest or suit is always active, no matter what, the shield takes power just being on, yes tricks can also be played on shields although it isn't common. You could add more batteries to your shield or another emitter, but I would still like to have an armor vest if I can carry it. Also, armor would fail only locally, based on per limb basis or spots within the limbs. A shield would take damage in its entirety no matter the angle, unless it has arcs, but then that's directional damage rather than shot placement. Of course, the game isn't going to have any twitch mechanics, so shot placement wouldn't be able to be worked into armor except as a random value.

This is a great example of pros on cons of each type of armour. Would you prefer the increased defence of a personal shield (perhaps better at protecting you from ranged attacks), with its reliance on a power supply, or the solid reliability, but comparative weight, of body armour, which would better protect you from melee attacks, like a cross between a bullet proof and stab-proof vest? Being able to wear both at the same time is a cheap cop-out IMO, for reasons stated. Picking the right armour for the conditions should be key, rather than a mindless "oh I've got it in my bag, let me just put it on" mindset.

I would like the ability to "tinker" with things, so that we could "mix" armours, if you will, too, and certainly enchance them according to our skills - an engineering might coax more protection out of body armour by adjusting its matrix, whereas a tactical officer may make the suit more maneuverable without sacrficing any defence, sort of thing.


Someone trained in armor maintenance would perform repairs, you wouldn't do them yourselves anymore than a police officer or soldier would repair his own armor, unless it's no different than switching out ceramic plates. But, for just wearing a vest you don't need any sort of maintenance. Special training for armor would make sense for a really fancy suit, such as a completely sealed powered exoskeleton.

Which makes sense - engineers would naturally be more inclined to use personal shielding and be trained to maintain and repair them and such, whereas tactical officers would seem to be more inclined to wear body armour - although the choice would be completely up to the player, as the armours would have their own advantages and disadvantages. You'd need to know how to put the vest on correctly, and to maintain and replace its plating, store it correctly, check for tears and damage etc. Seeing as it's STO, it's probably more than replacing ceramic plates. For example, in Elite Force, their armour is repaired by nanites, so you'd need to know how to program and apply the nanites to fix the problem logically (rather than just walk up to a terminal as in the game). I hope we can't just repair our armour to 100% on a whim in STO. :o

I genuinely hope the basic crewmen have skills that can be exploited for menial tasks and not just the bridge officers.

I can't see how they could work this in if we will never see the "general crew"? :confused:

[MajorD]

In a sense, until players find out it significantly increases your defence.
Who said significant? An armor vest shouldn't add too much. They may try to put tanks in, it is an MMO, not that I want to see traditional tanks in this game, it's inappropriate.

I believe offering it as an equivalent (ie making you decide between the certain advantages and disadvantages of types of armour, weighing the pros and cons of each) would increase your choices as players wouldn't feel herded into feeling like they must have the most defence/health they can get to stay competitive in ground PVP, and there would be an equal and fair choice between things. No plate vs cloth scenarios as we'd all be in comparative armours, with our slight tweaks, and no ridiculously high health pools or crazy damage dissipation.
That's a choice limitation, regardless of whether if forces a player to make a choice. It's still a false dilemma designed around a choice of mechanics rather than a sense of realism.

Why not, if you can already wear two types? Have a special tpe of undergarment called nanoarmour or something.
It's a matter of the available technology. If they think it's reasonable to have an under armor layer, then they could have it. If they're basing it off modern armor, then it doesn't fit, because such a layer would be part of the armor vest or suit in the first place. If it were like Gothic armor, then you would have an underarmor in key placaes where armor doesn't offer coverage but not as a tertiary defense either. That's really my point, if it's so light it will be integrated into the more substantial armor, or be the only pieces of armor in an effort to achieve lightness in the same way there are different classes of body armor protection with different levels of weight and concealment; 1 through 5. Helmets have three classes.

Being able to wear both at the same time is a cheap cop-out IMO, for reasons stated. Picking the right armour for the conditions should be key, rather than a mindless "oh I've got it in my bag, let me just put it on" mindset. It's realistic, because armor and a shield are completely different. Having any draw backs for heavier defenses other than weight is also unrealistic. If they took the time to create real weight ratings and weight penalties it could be a very interesting thing.

I would like the ability to "tinker" with things, so that we could "mix" armours, if you will, too, and certainly enchance them according to our skills - an engineering might coax more protection out of body armour by adjusting its matrix, whereas a tactical officer may make the suit more maneuverable without sacrficing any defence, sort of thing.
So, your argument is that you do want to mix defenses but only with a skill level that allows it. I counter that skill should only work into making upgrades for shield and armor and that's all. Training's only impact on armor beyond a certain point should be something like speed or no weight penalty.


Which makes sense - engineers would naturally be more inclined to use personal shielding and be trained to maintain and repair them and such, whereas tactical officers would seem to be more inclined to wear body armourI don't see why.

although the choice would be completely up to the player, as the armours would have their own advantages and disadvantages. You'd need to know how to put the vest on correctly, and to maintain and replace its plating, store it correctly, check for tears and damage etc. Seeing as it's STO, it's probably more than replacing ceramic plates. For example, in Elite Force, their armour is repaired by nanites, so you'd need to know how to program and apply the nanites to fix the problem logically (rather than just walk up to a terminal as in the game). I hope we can't just repair our armour to 100% on a whim in STO. :o
You put your limbs through the holes and torso through the big hole, that's all you need to know about putting on armor. We're talking about people where everyone knows how to put on a space suit, a vest is not going to be trouble at all.

A self repairing suit of armor makes the argument of needing special maintenence knowledge make even less sense as the equipment is able to take care of its self to an even more extreme degree.

Thinking their armor wouldn't be as simple as replaceable plates has no backing, especially when the Defiant's armor was never said to need any special maintenance.


I can't see how they could work this in if we will never see the "general crew"? :confused:[/QUOTE]