Kobayashi Maru Vol. 19

[jblancato]

This week's scenario is brought to you by Jace.Terrik. Good luck!

You make first contact with a civilization called the Savii. The Savii have just reached the technology level necessary for the construction of warp-speed-capable vessels. They are an insectoid race connected through a hive mind, spreading information via a complex pheromone system.

Despite their relative technological sophistication, the Savii are slowly dying out due to a hereditary illness. The Savii have been unable to discover a cure, but it turns out that Starfleet Medical will be able to negate the sickness within a generation by performing minor genetic tweaks on a handful of Savii. The cure will spread through the pheromone network instantly, curing all and sundry.

The Savii, however, are a deeply religious people and they find these suggestions of genetic alterations invasive and highly offensive.

Starfleet defers to your judgment: Would you rather let the Savii die out gradually, respecting their religious rights, or do you insist on saving them from mass extinction?

[Suricata]

I'd respect thier religous rights, If any Savii come forward and request the genitic alterations they are more than welcome to them. Just because the race is generally deeply religous does not mean the entire race has the same opinions afterall, although the hive mind ofcourse means this may be unlikely. The best thing to do is to just put the offer out there to them, even if they do not accept it at first, they may change thier mind over time.

[Veglargh]

I would help them by detonating a big Raid (http://www.killsbugsdead.com/) torpedo in their atmosphere. That would solve the Fed's dilemma.

[CrazyVulcan]

aww they will come around eventally

in fact i bet ther are a hand full of athiest out there, but they will be oustrizied form soctity for there difrenet pharamones, so youll be damning a few that will actually save the rest, or as the population fall enugh they will eventallly just rise up and a counter religious movement will sweep through the hive, probly a war and who know what else but me well stay on hade wait till they are ready for us to save them

[Malchazowski]

there really is nothing you can do. since they havent applied for membership with the federation, you cannot impose your will upon theirs. you'd just have to keep on trying to convince them that they need this cure in order to survive. hopefully they will accept the alterations soon before too many are lost. if it really came down to it, with the authorization of starfleet, force the genetic alteration upon them after a certain percentage has died in order to keep them from extinction.

[Kado2]

I would make the choice to introduce the new genetic modifier through some form of everyday necessity to the species, be it food, water or some other form. This way they keep their precious religious beliefs, and actually find stronger faith by perhaps believing that their god has found favor in them for expanding outward among the stars and granted them a cure.

This newfound strength of faith could pose a problem in a few generations since insectoid species tend to reproduce quickly which would give them vast numbers and such religious fervor could lead to an interstellar jihad. However this situation too is easily handled through careful diplomatic relations with the species.

[Ketsuban]

If I were a member of Section 31, I'd engineer the required alteration into a retrovirus and introduce it into the Savii populace. Problem solved.

If I were a Starfleet cadet, I'd do nothing. I can't force them to survive if they don't want to, and I wouldn't even consider something as horrible and illegal as engineering the alteration into a retrovirus and introducing it to the populace.

[Spire]

Where's the "use pheramone system to make them my personal slaves" option? That's why we need a Klingon version, to let me use my cunning stratagies in an evil way.

If I was a Fed officer I would just give them the offer, I shouldn't force it upon them. If they want to all die out let them, no harm to me. But if a small group wants to accept the cure, then it's revolution time! Give the rebels the cure, protect them from the others best I can, maybe even help them form a colony and adopt that into the Federation. Heck, they should be able to return home after all of the others die off. So we all win. Those who want to live get to live, those who want to die can die, and I can help some rebels and blow stuff up! Win,win, win.

[JohnnyWilson]

I'd call on my Xenopology and Culture Officer to learn more about their religion. Then, we would take on a prophetic role and convince them that it was God's or "the gods'" will for them to be "tweaked." Even if we only "converted" a few members of the population to our virtual "cult," it would probably be enough to begin the beneficent infection.

Since the conversion of a "few" would be voluntary and no coercion of the leaders would be required, I believe this would accomplish the purpose without overtly violating the Prime Directive.

Doc Johnny aka Ensign Pulverized

[Mookie]

Short answer: Let them die.

Long answer: The prime directive strictly prohibits actions taken against a race that might interfere with that race's development, even if it means that development will cease. The rights and beliefs of that race are tantamount considerations when dealing with a different species.

My suggestion is to do anything possible within the laws and beliefs of the race, and otherwise, leave them alone. The Federation stands for honesty, honor, and the right for a race of people to live, or die, as they wish on their own world.

[Angelwithsoul]

I'd open up further negotiations with the Savii. Try to persuade them to take a look at the plans, Perhaps set up a simulation informing them on the goings on behind the procedure.

In the mean time I'd have Starfleet Medical research other less invasive ways of curing the Savii, Perhaps in time we can adapt the cure into saving the Savii without affecting their religious beliefs.

[yardbird]

Let the choice reside with the culture itself. Their destiny should be their's to choose or shape as they see fit.

It should not be the Federation's role to impose a solution, no matter how practical or seemingly reasonable. That's not the Fed's call. They should tender a standing offer to lend immediate aid if requested, and leave it at that. Chances are, when their predicament looms enormous enough, that the Savii will eventually come around to seeing the wisdom in continued existence. All principles and ideals evolve with the seasons of material and biological needs.

[RookActual]

Starfleet did it's research on the medical side, but now would be the time to bring in the xeno-anthropologists to study their religion. Certainly, somewhere within their religion, could be found a reasonable compromise to convince them that this treatment is indeed in line with their principles. Failing this, the Federation has no real precedent to interfere unless they are welcomed. Perhaps the solution was offered at a point the Savii were not desperate enough to realize the gravity of the situation, and they will reconsider in due time. If the Savii wish to become extinct, that is their prerogative and not the Federation's.

I'm assuming volunteers would be unlikely in a hive mind, as their adherence to the laws would probably be unanimous. I would not recommend a less invasive cure or a covert introduction of it, as that may be discovered and turn an entire race of beings into enemies in the future. The Federation's reputation would also then be in question, as they will have been proven to have actively tampered in another culture's practices against their will. Whether it be for their supposed benefit or not, they may become aggressive as they realize their wishes were not respected.

[Basicacorn]

Let them make room for a more worthy species.

[firestorm713]

I think there's one huge thing that's being a bit overlooked. The prime directive? We can influence as much as we want, but unless they specifically ask for it, we can't actually do anything. I'd continue negotiations and study their culture as much as possible, but as starfleet officers, we can't do anything that would affect the natural development of their culture. Even if it means that they will slowly die out.

[Rakkis]

beam up a couple of the Savii eggs (there insects so they have eggs) and genetically engineer them to fix the problem. Beam the eggs back down problem solved, no one is the wiser that the eggs were moved.

[redbeard1682]

Broadcast an offer to the citizens the chance to leave their home planet and start on a new uninhabited planet with the genetic modifications. Standby with several transport ships for a great migration.

[yardbird]

I think there's one huge thing that's being a bit overlooked. The prime directive? We can influence as much as we want, but unless they specifically ask for it, we can't actually do anything. I'd continue negotiations and study their culture as much as possible, but as starfleet officers, we can't do anything that would affect the natural development of their culture. Even if it means that they will slowly die out.

Yes. And that's for the Federation's good as much as for any other culture or society.

It's partly an admission that we may not fully understand the motivations or subtle consciousness of another species. Abandoning the Prime Directive in this scenario would be utter hubris, thinly veiled in an overblown sense of superiority.

Remember the Organians.

[USSREVENGE]

They refused my help and the prime directive prevents me to interfere. So heres what id do set a course for risa me and my crew deserve a break ooo and have chef make me a cheescake *drool*. I may check up on the savii after 2 weeks, (dont want to spend 2 long on risa my crew needs a break but i dont wanna spoil them now) and renew the offer. if they stll refuse well live and let live or umm die :-S

[pirateslovebooty]

i think i would request that individuals be taken and shown different examples of how genetic manipulation has been used to save life and other nicy nice things request that a permanent federation presence be set up on the planet to monitor the situation and provide medical assistance if and when requested then id leave em to it.

i doubt that there would be any individuals or groups come forward for treatment as your dealing with a hive mind so im going for providing as much info as possible and hopipng that this influx of info +time to think+dropping population numbers might urge them/it to re think.

if not big ass planet peeps all dead federation presence i call shot gun.

[Jacen911]

Well as a Star fleet captain my Decision would be to follow the Prime Directive completely. I would use logic on their leaders.

As in I wouldn't think that your religion would want you as a people to die out. The very act of doing nothing would be a species suicide, it would be the same as if every single member threw themselves on their (knife. sword. Sharp weapon/object of some sort).

And if using logic with them doesn't work then well they die till one of them gets a clue. who knows it might be a thing to regulate the species when it gets to large it is a hive culture after all.

The prime directive states no interference to any race that doesn't specifically ask for it (I am excluding the part of the prime directive that includes pre warp cultures as it doesn't apply to this race.) there fore the most that can be done is let them know that anytime they want the cure they can have it and wait.

That is all.

[SenatorPardek]

Prime Directive doesn't apply here, because they are warp-capable. However, you can't force help onto someone. Prepare the cure, and tell them to think it over, and that it is availible anytime they want. If it appears at any point its going to be too late, and if Starfleet medical can find an undetectable means of introducing the cure, introduce it. Im sure with our technological level they wouldn't find out that it was a genetic modification.

[Janeway_fan]

It is not Starfleet's custom to interfere in the ways of other people, because of the PRIME DIRECTIVE. Therefore Starfleet shall not interfere with the Savii's religion. END OF STORY! We may try to get them to allow us, but if they completely deny it, every single one, then we will have no choice but to let them die. It is their wish.

[Janeway_fan]

Prime Directive doesn't apply here, because they are warp-capable.

It still applies. It applies to any race.

[erriku]

If there are a few among them that would be willing to be genetically altered, then the obvious course of action is relocation for those that would choose life. If more than a handful are given the genetic tweak and are left within the general populace, they would infect the majority with the cure. That goes against the requests of the species as a whole. Those that would rather live will relocate to another similar planet. Those that would rather die for their religious beliefs are still free to do so.

[justynhuculak]

Prime Directive doesn't apply here, because they are warp-capable. However, you can't force help onto someone. Prepare the cure, and tell them to think it over, and that it is availible anytime they want. If it appears at any point its going to be too late, and if Starfleet medical can find an undetectable means of introducing the cure, introduce it. Im sure with our technological level they wouldn't find out that it was a genetic modification.


The Directive states that members of Starfleet are not to interfere in the internal affairs of another species, especially the natural development of pre-warp civilizations, either by direct intervention, or technological revelation.


The Prime Directive doesn't apply just to pre-warp cultures. It applies ESPECIALLY to them, but it is universally applicable. The Prime Directive boils down to not sticking your nose in the door unless you've been invited to do so.

[ImperialHawk]

Since they feel that it would be unnatural for the federation to use its medical system to help them, the federation should not impose itself over them. I would offer to show them how it would work and give them access to our medical databases on this technology so they can look for themselves. after digesting the information more throughly they may decide to ask for our help. Otherwise, I will not force "help" on them.

[blackbirdflames]

Let em' die.:D

[blackbirdflames]

If they accepted buying the medical supplies, they would not have to die and they would still be working with their religious customs. Star Fleet would just be a supplier.

[Sephiroth144]

Deeply religious doesn't mean entirely. I would continue speaking with them, and as I found those more sympathetic to science or non-believers, note who they are, and begin tweaking them. (If none, and the tweaks are truly that minor, could even do it "on the fly") Continue to offer regular medical care and all the Federation goodies to them that they would want, but I would keep the modifications secret. (Could likely be explained later as more detailed mapping made available by Federation tech shows the discrepancies, since logically they would not have DNA imaging to the level of the Fed baseline.)

[FilipJustinCucu]

If i were a klingon i would detonate a torpedo into their atmosphere. If i were Worf i would RAM THEM!

However i'm a stsrfleet officer. I would force them to take the cure.

[Trekkie]

Even though it would pose a moral dilemma, I would say that the best course of action would be to allow the Savii to continue progressing as normal, mostly because interfering could introduce even more problems in the culture. I do think that giving the Savii some information about the procedure so that they can make a more informed decision would be wise, but if push came to shove then I do not think it would be wise to force the issue.

[weswebb04]

I would offer the medical solution and if they decline leave a standing offer because it could be good for building relations between the federation and their race.

If they didn't accept I wouldn't worry too much because if they are truly like insects they have a very fast reproductive rate with larger numbers of children and it's very possible that they naturally over come the illness naturally.

If they don't accept ever and don't over come the illness it means in a generation star fleet can go see if they have any good tech.

[Vlherg]

If they choose to destroy themselves, so be it.
A race that foolish doesn't deserve to exist.

[Alaric]

Hmm. Assuming all I know about the situation is what was given in the original post;

I think it's dangerous to assume too much about the behaviour, beliefs, or social make-up of the Savii. While many of the known extraterrestrial races are surprisingly human in their psychological makeup (Klingons, for example), others can be more alien. The first step, i think, should be to enter into a dialog with the leading philosophers, priests, scientists, thinkers, etc. of the Savii (assuming that they have that degree of individuality- otherwise, just enter into a dialog with the species as a whole), find out more about the nature of their beliefs and moral concepts. There may be some way to present the proposed genetic cure to them that they would find less repungnant- perhaps relating it to some religious parable of theirs or something.

If no solution can be reached in this way, there still may be other options. For example, perhaps in would be possible to use gentic engineering to add elements of the Savii genome, specifically those relating to the hereditary illness, as well as those relating to pheremone production, into native plants, then perform the required genetic tweeks on the plants, and see if they can spread the cure via the pheremone network. Or, perhaps the Savii would be less offended by more apparently-natural means of gentic alteration- maybe if some genetically-altered virus did the work, instead of Federation scientists or doctors, it would be more acceptable, for example.

If all else failed, it may be possible for a lone individual to go in illegally, kidnap a handful of Savii, and forcibly alter them to save the entire species.

[Rgoodfel]

This one is no problem. I plan on being a Klingon character, so I wouldn't have access to Fed technology. Pluss I find it hard to believe the empire would care. If they didn't want to do what made them strong. Let them die. It would just mean one more planet for the Klingon Empire to colonize once they died out.

[EricDuckman]

Pfft. This is an easy one. Prime Directive. No Interference. Blah, blah, blah.

Set course for nearest Rest and Recuperation Center, Warp Factor 7. Engage. First Officer, you have the conn. I'll be in the Holodeck with Cindy Crawford and Heather Locklear. I'm only to be disturbed if it's a real emergency.

[togruta4]

I agree with AndrewQ and everyone else who pointed out the Prime Directive. It seems like the obvious answer... Of course, the Prime Directive was disobeyed A LOT, so maybe I should cure them and just hope I get away with it like all the other captains did.

[Greenomen]

You have two choices. First, alien abduction. Grab a few while they are sleeping. Make the changes. Then put them back. :D

Second, what would Kirk do? "Let them die! " Captain James T. Kirk - Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country (1991) ;)

[Blodveard]

Well since they have a generation of time left (whatever that might be), I would leave the cure with their leaders and let them decide, in their own time, if they want to use it.

If they do not use it, that was their choice. The prime directive would remain enforced, even if they chose to use the cure as well.

[Vulcazoid]

This week's scenario is brought to you by Jace.Terrik. Good luck!

You make first contact with a civilization called the Savii. The Savii have just reached the technology level necessary for the construction of warp-speed-capable vessels. They are an insectoid race connected through a hive mind, spreading information via a complex pheromone system.

Despite their relative technological sophistication, the Savii are slowly dying out due to a hereditary illness. The Savii have been unable to discover a cure, but it turns out that Starfleet Medical will be able to negate the sickness within a generation by performing minor genetic tweaks on a handful of Savii. The cure will spread through the pheromone network instantly, curing all and sundry.

The Savii, however, are a deeply religious people and they find these suggestions of genetic alterations invasive and highly offensive.

Starfleet defers to your judgment: Would you rather let the Savii die out gradually, respecting their religious rights, or do you insist on saving them from mass extinction?

Prime Directive. Nuff said.

[MerakBashee]

We're not out here to play gods, expecially if they refuse to accept our help. If they are to survive then they'll do so by their own means and do it when they desire.

[lipad]

i have to respect their choices i think i will let them die

[Jray132f]

umm are we forgeting the prime directive? leave them to there deaths you migth lose some sleep but Starfleet put out these rules for a good reason.

[Malchazowski]

aww they will come around eventally

in fact i bet ther are a hand full of athiest out there, but they will be oustrizied form soctity for there difrenet pharamones, so youll be damning a few that will actually save the rest, or as the population fall enugh they will eventallly just rise up and a counter religious movement will sweep through the hive, probly a war and who know what else but me well stay on hade wait till they are ready for us to save them

the Savi are a hive mind. there is no opposition.

[Avantos]

As much as it would pain one to do so, I'd follow the Prime Directive. As a hive mind, they have made their decision. Best thing to do would be to gather as much information from their society, all ongoing research projects, let them know they can contact Starfleet if they happen to change their mind, and go on my way.

As much as I would hate allowing an entire species to die out, it is not my place to play God to them and force what I think is right on them.

[The_Furies]

While I think it would be rather noble to save the race from extinction, the fact of the matter is that it is ultimately their own choice to accept Federation help or not. They could easily interpret forced Federation aid as an act of aggression and subversion and earn the Federation a new enemy, even if it is a less technologically advanced enemy. While I would offer them the means to save themselves, the fact of a hive mind means that all of the citizens would be aware of the offer, if their religious zealotry means they're going to kill themselves then I won't stand in the way of their suicidal agenda. I would recommend to Star Fleet Command to send an anthropology team to record the civilizations culture so that when they all die we could still learn that the lesson of foolish pride is a meaningless death.

[Raibart]

The Prime Directive........Hmm in Kirk's time it applied to primitive specieces that didn't know of the existance of other races but by the time we get to Voyager they apply it to everyone....stupid. Ok I'm gonna assume in this Universe it only applies to non warp civilizations to protect them from cultral contamination . This Race can discover warp so their not protected under the Directive but do I have the right to interfere?... I'd sail a warship into their space claiming we were searching for a renagade shapeshifter. Then I'd forcabily board one of their interplanatry cargo/mining ships and submit them to what we would tell them was a blood screaning. This of course would destroy all chances for a possative first contact but we would save their race. and yes I could live with that.

[Drysdan]

if they do not wish to accept our cure so be it. They can offer very little to Starfleet intelligence. They lack either technological or biological superiority. Let them die. If they wish to have the cure they can come back to us for it later. I have little time to waste trying to convince a race of my views, when it is so irrelevant. Besides this scenario is purely moral in that Starfleet regulation would clearly indicate that we HAVE to respect their wishes.
To be a little more diplomatic though one needs to consider the full ramifications of 'saving' these people. this act could actually do more damage than good. If we did save them likely there are two scenarios to unfold 'A' they declare war upon us and unilateral begin attacking us as 'Pagans' and heretics, or 'B' they they find a way to separate the cured from the uncured 'purify' their race, then declare war on us. They would never be thankful for the cure.

[TheDrifter]

Not out here to play God.

If they choose to die, thats their right.

On the other side of that token, had they asked for help, we would have given it.

Perhaps it would be best to send scientist to study and archive as much about them as possible, so at least their accomplishments and history will be preserved.

[lunarj]

Easy call, I'm star fleet. I don't have to agree with their decision, but I have to respect it. I'll look for another way, but if there is none, I let them die with what they consider to be dignity.

[Falin]

Short answer: Let them die.

Long answer: The prime directive strictly prohibits actions taken against a race that might interfere with that race's development, even if it means that development will cease. The rights and beliefs of that race are tantamount considerations when dealing with a different species.

My suggestion is to do anything possible within the laws and beliefs of the race, and otherwise, leave them alone. The Federation stands for honesty, honor, and the right for a race of people to live, or die, as they wish on their own world.

I agree, how is this even remotely a KM? straight forward answer, if they do not wish he help, then they do not get it. the federation stands by the rights of all species to their cultural beliefs, regurdless if they are part of the federation or not.

[drays917]

I'd save them. I know what it's a direct violation of the Prime Directive, and I would face severe punishment, but I'd accept that - anything less is to condone what is effectively genocide, whether that genocide was welcome or not. I would defend myself in my inevitable court martial, knowing full well I'd be in huge trouble, and I would accept whatever punishment I received. The Savii could hate me for eternity, fine, but Starfleet would retain plausible deniability of my plans, so the Savii couldn't blame them.

[MorganL4]

We kinda have to let them die,

A they are not IN the federation ( so although we are allowed full contact with them we cannot impose our will on them)

its a simple mater of the Prime Directive, the cure is there we offer it, but if they don't take it, we have no authority over them, and must respect their wishes.

that was probably the easiest scenario yet.

[Sherp]

This is an easy one. We're in Starfleet--we're not here to strap people down to biobeds and inject them with chemicals they don't want, and we're not here to try to sneak the cure in when they're not looking. Disable the contagion component of the cure and make it available to anyone who wants it. If Malchazowski is right and their hive-mind nature means that the entire planet is of one mind on this issue, we're not going to strong-arm them into doing what we think is best for their species.

If at least a few Savii take the cure, then the species is saved. In a generation or two, all of the Savii who were morally opposed to taking the cure will be dead, while those who decided they could afford to be a little pragmatic will be alive and making little Saviis. That's natural selection. In the shorter term, if the new members of the Reformed Church of Savii decide they want/need protection from the First Church of Savii, I'll be happy to give them a ride to the nearest starbase where they can treat with a real diplomat.

[Resistance]

The people saying the Prime Directive applies here are completely wrong. Prime Directive is for not interfering with the natural developement of a civilization, usually pre-warp.

The ONLY way in which someone should think the Prime Directive applies is by means that you (a Starfleet Officer) should not apply your will or Starfleets will against the wishes of the civilization.

Since they are warp capable, you can certainly negotiate or try to understand and change their minds.

You people that say Prime Directive applies because you would be interfering are wrong. Just by trying to study them and change their minds, you are interfering.

[damo]

I would say the prime directive applies and their wishes must be respected.

You can't force them to take something they don't want to.

[daerrion]

It is always possible that the insectoid race will turn out to be like a second coming of the borg as they multiply endlessly consuming ever more resources and destroying all in their path.

So you could do the old standby and fly around their sun at high warp and check the past and future for evidence of wether they are a benevolent or psychotic religious race of hive mind insectoids. Of course you would need a rickety old Klingon vessel but what the heck!

I vote for the raid bomb as zerg invasions blow.

[damo]

The people saying the Prime Directive applies here are completely wrong. Prime Directive is for not interfering with the natural developement of a civilization, usually pre-warp.

The ONLY way in which someone should think the Prime Directive applies is by means that you (a Starfleet Officer) should not apply your will or Starfleets will against the wishes of the civilization.

Since they are warp capable, you can certainly negotiate or try to understand and change their minds.

You people that say Prime Directive applies because you would be interfering are wrong. Just by trying to study them and change their minds, you are interfering.

The prime directive is valid here. If you read the scenario's last paragraph, it clearly calls on the Prime Directive to be applied:

Starfleet defers to your judgment: Would you rather let the Savii die out gradually, respecting their religious rights, or do you insist on saving them from mass extinction?

Letting them die out whilst respecting their beliefs is the very essence of the Prime Directive (even if we don't agree with it personally) and forcing them to take the cure is a violation of this directive and their right to their own evolutionary destiny.

I think the point being made here is that this culture does not wish to have the cure and whilst you can always continue to make the offer, you cannot force them to have it which is why a lot of us are quoting the prime directive.

[Talenus]

I firmly believe the prime directive applies. If we take the example of the Edo that were encountered by Captain Picard, they were obviously warp capable as the Enterprise crew was on shore leave. And yet, Picard had to face the dilemma of the Prime Directive in saving Westley Crusher.

Regardless of the Hive mind in this situation, the cure could not be introduced to even a small group willing to take it, as this would force the decision on the entire race. If the small group would be willing to relocate to another world, then it would be an acceptable solution.

But evading the dilemma by introducing the cure to a willing sect of the populace, would still violate the Prime Directive, as it would alter the entirety of the race and alter that race against its will.

I would encourage starfleet command and the Federation council to maintain constant contact and diplomatic ties in an effort to either change the hive minds decision or at least to save the sum total knowledge of the race as someone previously suggested.

[KaptinJRN]

i'm with the majority of the posters here, it is illogical, and immoral to interfere with this sentient life's religious beliefs, therefore, keep the help line open, and get a free diplomatic appointment for your trouble

[jhem99]

Every individual has the right to make an ing\formed choice about their treatment. In this case their religous beliefs aka their conscience dictates abstinance. That should be respected.:)

[Napalm006]

If I were human. I believe my response would be...

Nuke 'em Rico!!!!

[RookActual]

If I were human. I believe my response would be...

Nuke 'em Rico!!!!

...would you like to know more?

"We must meet this threat with our courage, our valor, indeed with our very lives to ensure that human civilization, not insect, dominates this galaxy *now and always*!"

...and remember, service guarantees citizenship.

[ccalhoun]

They are connected to a hive mind, tell one of them about the cure and leave it to them to decide. It is not Starfleets place to give them the cure.

If you however insist on curing them, persuade them to join the United Federation of Planets, then you have reason for your cure, but the decision should be their own.

By all means, point out their stupidity and relate the saving of the species to their religion.

[kieranloftus]

They are connected to a hive mind, tell one of them about the cure and leave it to them to decide. It is not Starfleets place to give them the cure.

If you however insist on curing them, persuade them to join the United Federation of Planets, then you have reason for your cure, but the decision should be their own.

By all means, point out their stupidity and relate the saving of the species to their religion.
i would kidnap 1 inject it then give it back

[DarkBarron]

Hmmm

I would say. So you quitting Life. Can I have your stuff :D

[newkid141]

well id have the entire race put up a vote if the majority accept the treatment ill do it
if not ill just have them join the federation and wate to see if they change:)






p.s you cant just change one to make a cure for that one , there all connected and it quikly spreads to all of them without concent. :confused:

[Arsinoe]

I would respect their beliefs but make the treatment available to those who would want it, if some of their people prefer survival over their faith then thats their internal problem. :)

[Nalah]

Let them die.

[extraspicy]

let them die ... one less religious zealots to deal with later when/if they should become a strong power ... i'd even try to convince them that power of prayer is more powerful than any blasphemous medically engineered cure ... problem solved ... looking forward to KM vol. 20

[extraspicy]

Napalm006:

If I were human. I believe my response would be...

Nuke 'em Rico!!!!
__________________
"And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant, and all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal... and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain."
- Garak





love ur sig, one of the "really"' good episodes ...

[Archangelwoghd]

This sounds cruel, but they havent hurt enough yet.

When a sufficient number have died, the remainder will have adjusted their foolish religious qualms.
Then you will be able to approach them about saving the race.
Until they get down to about 25 specimens, the gene pool will have sufficient diversity to continue the species.
It's really up to them.

[khronokross]

if the problem its the genetic changes... maybe we should give a different option... im pretty sure that if you have a solution to a problem its just a question of time to find a different approach... just explore their religious and find a solution that fits in their believings.

And for the ones who said nuke them bunch of fanatics! you deserve it :P with that idea no race could live in space... every race have a very big attitude problem xd

Sorry for my english, not first language :D

[Torchar]

Unfortunately for this KB the Prime Directive is clear, if the Savii do not want our aid then we cannot force them to, however i would continue to press the issue through diplomatic channels.

I would an attempt to persuade the race that everything they have ever worked towards for will be for nothing. Their families will die, their technological advances will be lost, and no one will remain to keep alive the knowledge of their gods/religious beliefs..

Surely their Deity's would not want to visit genocide upon their race. It would serve no purpose, this is simply another disease that the must deal with, just like the way they must have dealt with thousands of other diseases through out their history. With a medical solution.

If this argument is unable to persuade their collective mind then i would establish a permanent communication link with the planet so if they change their mind, they could contact us immediately for the cure. in addition i would set up a system where if they agree to the treatment it can be put into effect as soon as possible and quickly applied to as many sentient as possible. Finally i would post a ship nearby to keep starfleet uptodate of their plight, again offering the cure as the situation gets worse.

*Hail from the 23rd Fleet Paulson Station*

[Manta2015]

Separation of church and state, people ~ if it'll save lives (let alone civilization as they know it) no religious belief should stand in the way of logic and common sense ~

They hate you, but in the end they'll see what their religion brought to them in the end ~ Absolutely nothing =)

Yes, this mission is quite solved.


-Manta-

[tyberius54]

Finally one that doesnt involve klingon or romulan or fighting, would give the the option of our assistance and wait for them to respond because im sure there would be some of them that would request help over dying. And the few that would accept the help would save the rest.

[Kheren]

This week's scenario is brought to you by Jace.Terrik. Good luck!

You make first contact with a civilization called the Savii. The Savii have just reached the technology level necessary for the construction of warp-speed-capable vessels. They are an insectoid race connected through a hive mind, spreading information via a complex pheromone system.

Despite their relative technological sophistication, the Savii are slowly dying out due to a hereditary illness. The Savii have been unable to discover a cure, but it turns out that Starfleet Medical will be able to negate the sickness within a generation by performing minor genetic tweaks on a handful of Savii. The cure will spread through the pheromone network instantly, curing all and sundry.

The Savii, however, are a deeply religious people and they find these suggestions of genetic alterations invasive and highly offensive.

Starfleet defers to your judgment: Would you rather let the Savii die out gradually, respecting their religious rights, or do you insist on saving them from mass extinction?


All right cadets: you have rhought about your answers and written them down.

Now take note of the following:

General Order 1: The Prime Directive
As the right of each sentient species to live in accordance with its normal cultural evolution is considered sacred, no Starfleet personnel may interfere with the normal and healthy development of alien life and culture. Such interference includes introducing superior knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely. Starfleet personnel may not violate this Prime Directive, even to save their lives and/or their ship, unless they are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental contamination of said culture. This directive takes precedence over any and all other considerations, and carries with it the highest moral obligation.

General Order 16
Starfleet personnel may extend technological, medical, or other scientific assistance to a member of a previously unrecognized sentient species only if such assistance in no way compromises the Prime Directive or the security of the Federation or Starfleet.

General Order 30
Starfleet Command recognizes the right of each ship commander to interpret the specifications of the Prime Directive as he sees fit, consistent with the conditions of other existing general orders in effect, and based upon circumstances that may arise in dealing with newly discovered sentient races.

General Order 31
The conditions and specifications of the Prime Directive shall henceforth apply to all sentient life forms discovered, whether they are of natural or artificial origin.

General Order 34
All Starfleet personnel and/or Federation civilian contractors shall follow a superior's order to the best of their ability, unless said orders should conflict with the regulation laid out in these orders. Special dispensations are granted in emergency situations as per specific orders, with the exceptions of General Orders 1, 2, 3, or 7.

General Order 37
Starfleet personnel shall respect binding contracts, agreements, and bondings made by the Federation government and/or Starfleet itself and shall operate within the boundaries & governances of said treaties, especially in matters dealing with the co-signatories of said treatise.


I am sure many among you have personal beliefs about sanctity of life, democracy, freedom, basic human rights, the value of logic, of faith and such... They are founding values of the Federation.

But do not forget that they all amount to one simple thing: each race, each culture, each individual, own their own life and destiny. We have absolutely no right to impose ourselves, our views, our values, our desires on any of them, nor any of them on us.

Giving that respect of their freedom of existence and destiny is our only valid claim to demand it for ourselves out of anyone. It is not just to protect them but also to protect us. Else we should as well surrender to the Klingons, the Romulans or even the Borg... because we would be just like them.

We have a cure for them. We have made it available to them at any time. It is now their choice to avail themselves of it or not... not ours..

We can not pretend to uphold our own values if we violate them just to satisfy our personal interpretation of them. It might or might not save them... but it would destroy us. The very idea and existence of the Federation and what it represents would then just be a lie... and lies can not endure.

That is why we have those General Orders in Starfleet. Learn them, study them, reflect upon them. They were not written as suggestions or mere guidelines: they are orders, well thought out to preserve what we are and what we wish to be.

You will notice that some have been added, modified or even abrogated over time; also that they give some leeway to act according to circumstances: because no set of rules, however extensive, can cover all that the universe can brign us.

But before you do exercise upon that leeway, or worse ignore those orders, think of the long term consequences upon the Federation, upon us. Once you violate a fundamental rule of what defines us, you start on a downhill roll from wich it becomes harder and harder and eventually impossible to go back.

Be absolutely sure you want to go down that road... because you will bring all of us down with you.

Remember one word, cadets: Responsibility.

[Kyrion]

Given their level of technology, it should be acceptable by the Prime Directive to provide the specifications of the cure to their culture and let them make their own decision. This is how I would proceed.

One curiosity I had: How does a pheromone based Hive mind work over interstellar distances? If they have colonies, it might be necessary to provide each colony with the cure specification and let each colony make its own decisions.

[ecto1d]

Well if i was a strait up boy scout I 'd say wait for them to ask and study them for history if the don't make it.
But I'm not so....
First If i didn't have one I'd capture a klingon or romulan vessel disquise a team as that race I would then have that team do a pillage an burn thing anouncing that the race is now going to be a slave colony but they need to keep there "live stock" alive and give them the cure. After a short time I would come in with my ship/fleet and pretend to fight off the evil invaders! Now the race will live and i have assured that they will join the federation! hah! :D

[trebort5050]

If they want to allow themselves to be held back by something as silly as Religion, let them. It's none of my business. They will die out.

Meanwhile back in my ready room, I'm having a fabulous time with a rubix cube.

The Prime Directive = Bye Bye Race of Insects.

[Coldspike2]

I would think the prime directive would apply since they are not a federation member and their religion doesn't allow them to accept this type of cure. Also there have been times where the federation has let a race die out due to their non-interference policy.

[JadenKatrell]

Let them die.

If they have refused the cure that Starfleed has offerd, then it is not in our place to force it on them.

[kbird200425]

For me this is fairly simple. I'll let the savii culture progress the way it was meant. Even if that means they will die out in a few year. There no telling how genetic alteration would change their race. More important the choice wouldn't be mine to make the savii would have to make that choice.

[one4chaos]

As a Star fleet officer you have a duty to respect their beliefs even if it means their destruction. However, you also have a moral duty to save them if you can. Perhaps instead of trying to make them you should try and convince them through their own religion. Look through their religious texts and find something that will support your argument that they should take the treatments and live.

One4Chaos

[sam242424]

i wold save them.

[JoJimGregory]

We must respect their wishes and let them die in accordance with their religious belief system. We should perhaps offer funerary services by transport off planet for proper disposal of the terminally afflicted. Besides, I hear they're great deep fried with a semi-sweet chocolate drizzle and roasted hazelnuts.:cool:

[caspar21]

federation morals say to give them the choice.. no strings attached either way but we can save their race.

ferengi morals say: hard sell the cure.

klingon: they are weak. let them die.

romulans: only give them the cure if we can make the beholden to us for ever.

[dannylee1701]

As a starfleet captain it is your job to respect their culture. You cannot force them to proceed with the genetic changes. Now, if you can get them to apply for federation membership and require that they interact with other races as a requirement for joining. You could make sure that they interact with races that use genetic manipulation so they can see that there is nothing wrong with it, but it will be up to them to accept the help.

[Tiberius_John_Worthing]

I would offer them the treatment, and give it to any that freely accept it, separationg them from the others who do not want to be genetically manipulated. That way, I respect their culture, if they are, and still offer them the cure.

[Triggerlewis]

...First I would Give them a long Picard Speech. How advancing in tech helps better your people BLAH BLAH BLAH and how this gift from us is a blessing.

If they didn't take the medicine I would follow the prime directive and stay out of it. By helping them you could make a huge enemy. But the problem could work its self out in due time creating strong ties and not interfering in their society.

In the Star Trek universe I have seen this scenarios played out many times. Both ways could cause serious problems.

[KirksOtherSon]

I like this one. Good job, Jace.

As others have said, this one seems to be a straight Prime Directive case.

If, in fact, the clear majority of the race prefers to be left untreated, we must respect their right to cultural self-determination. All my ship could do would be to send in the science and xeno-cultural teams to make sure the history and culture of this race is preserved for future generations.

Of course, this sad ending presumes that the race truly is a "mass-mind" participatory democracy, with the whole will of the people made manifest moment-to-moment.

If there are any dissenters (i.e. the mass-mind is not a unified whole) they would be offered the life-saving treatments immediately, and sheltered from any repercussions from their people.

As has also been suggested, my xenocultural teams would be taking a close look at the tenets of the native religion -- hopefully, with the consultation of local religious leaders. If any potential "loophole option" can be found within the holy texts, we will press this issue to the extreme with the locals, hopefully using their own beliefs to save their lives.

Lastly, my ship's first contact officer will be in constant negotiations with the local powers, pleading the case for survival, and reminding them of the deadline past which cure will be impossible.

Sometimes, as the true reality of encroaching death sets in, people find themselves less willing to welcome it.


Thanks for this one,

KOS

[dahakahacker2000]

Well, this one comes down to the prime directive like everyone else has said, and not wanting to start a war with another race, I wouldn't force the alteration on them, but I would stay in orbit and contact with them periodically putting the idea forward, just letting the option be available, and should a small group decide that they want to go about it on their own, I would give that group the alterations.

[ZeroGRanger]

I would leave the choice to the Savii. I would offer them to supply a colony-planet where those who decide a cure would be in order could live and develop with the help of the genetic treatment. Those who decide that dying out is preferable to religious corruption could remain on their homeworld.
In fact once they actually died out the former exiles could return home if desired.

[T-Rex]

As long as the government (hive mind) refuses treatment , we cannot treat any of them . To do so would draw the Federation into a civil war, witch would be interfearience :(

[Krai_Rakesh]

I'm not sure what Starfleet regulations are on the matter, as they seem to change based upon the current needs of the UFP....

We would offer them the cure, but respect their choice to not accept it. After analysis of the detailed scans taken from orbit, we would ascertain the mineral wealth of their planet, and if a viable candidate begin negotiations for an embassy to be established to foster trade relations.

I would then contact the ministry of science, and inform them of the new species, so the archeologists can begin to list the relics they shall study as this race dies out...

[Arachnidus]

The prime directive's clear on this one; if the race's culture defies action, and if they don't want assistance, Starfleet officers are not to do so, forcibly or otherwise.

[CaptainKonnerRiley]

I would go beyond there religious views to save there lives. Be honest would you really let an entire species die out because of what they believe?

[Sorvalk]

Heal their Einsteins and keep them as prisoners to better the Klingon Empire!

[Endow]

To understand some one, or a species you must understand their past and culture. I would tell Star Fleet for my crew and I to stay on the planet. The mission would be to make friends with the Savi, learning all we can about their race, religion and culture and them learning about Star Fleet. Whether they want to accept our help is on them. But, maybe through friendship and understanding some might be open to it.

[erriku]

I would go beyond there religious views to save there lives. Be honest would you really let an entire species die out because of what they believe?

Yes..... I can say without a doubt in my mind that I would.

[Phlashman]

I'd probably try to reason with one or more of their race that would be more opened minded about such things (there surely would have to be a few). Perhaps get several Ambassadors involved to sway them and remind them that the galaxy is richer with them being a part of it. Short of that I'm afraid the Federation's "Prime directive" would take precedence here. If someone wants to allow themselves to die (due to illness of course) then its that individuals right to do so. The state should have no right to intervene. As a Starfleet officer I would have to abide by their wishes. Sadly, regardless the consequences.

[akechisolo]

It was nice knowing the Savii. May they rest in peace with Farrah and MJ.

[deeboboy]

lfirst another great story

now for the answer let them die the prime directive is clear on this one if no one species wants help then they shall not have it as each plaets and species has the rights to there own excistance...

[DarkOrion69]

While the Prime Directive primarily applies to pre-warp civilizations, it has always been proven to be in the best interests of the Federation to respect the customs of newly discovered species. I would implore the spiritual leaders of the Savii to reconsider. I would eloquently explain that this hereditary disease would mean that future generations of Savii would never live to respect the religion of their ancestors. If there faith is as strong as it seems to be, I would urge them to transform their religion before that very religion is lost forever.

If they choose not to accept our help, I would urge them to allow those people that wished to try the therapy to emigrate from the Savii homeworld to Federation worlds. These 'heretics' would be tasked with remembering the Savii and would not be allowed to return until asked for or to resettle when the unmodified Savii were extinct from the disease. Let them tell their people that though some of the Savii violated the strictures, they at least would be there to remember their ancestors after the naturaual and unmodified Savii were gone.

[capt.em]

I would try to negociate, seriously, if you were about to die undoubtedly, you would want to live right? That way they can preach longer and maybe, become a powerful ally to the Federation.;)

[Hawnzz]

Give the race the technology to heal themselves. If the technology is rejected, correct the genetic error in secret.

Do not do it for the living members of the species... do it for their children.

[Methous]

The federation Will not secretly put the cure into the population, that would violate the moral integerity of our people. This race holds its Faith as the Prime Virtue of what it means to be who they are. To violate that
would be to violate all trust and truth we have deloveped with them. If neccessary, we will learn their faith, understand it, and use it to urge them to choose life. We must as the Federation maintain our integerity in the face of all other races who choose to use decption or manipulation to advance their own agenda. Regardless of good motives, me must stick to the Moral high ground and not use "human" standards of common sense or theology to force or sneak our ways upon them. If we Must, the federation will Honor and respect this people to the grave, that we may never put a blemish upon the character of the federation. We will continue to offer our help (in any possible) with a clean conscience and hope they will reconsider. There are times in life where the harest decision and the right decision are often the same thing.

[overlordthor]

I would keep the option open to them, attempt to convince them that we have a cure that will solve the problem, without major changes to the species, but not force it upon them, they have a right to refuse medical treatment for religious reasons.

It is also possible that federation scientists might think of a less radical solution to the problem without genetic modification, even though that would likely mean they would all need the treatment individually.

[cgcatcher]

I would simply let them come around to their sences. You can not force it upon them and they will make some sence of it when enough of them die. And what's with all these people saying they would only alter a few? They're connected through a hive mind, they cannot disconnect from the hivemind and if one has it they all get it. Think about it, that would be as bad as making everybody else get it.

[bmcaleb]

the savii being religious and all would probably succub to persuasion that it is there divine icon's will for them to live and anyway that might make sense. if they sitll reject it. i could do it" accedentaly".

[Vlherg]

I would go beyond there religious views to save there lives. Be honest would you really let an entire species die out because of what they believe?

Yes I would. Just as we would allow a Jehovah's Witness to refuse a life saving blood transfusion, the Savii are due the same freedom to choose.

[razoredge21]

Since the savii are really religious i would give them the chance to give them the cure if not i would wait and give them another chance if they still not accept i would tell starfleet that they are not compiling so we will abort the mission http://forums.startrekonline.com/startrek/images//smilies/eek.gif

[Refugee]

The prime Directive does not allow us to force a cure on an unwilling population. If left to my own descretion I would make the offer of a cure and leave it at that. My desire would be that they change thier mind but it is thier choice. I would also offer whatever further asisstance Starfleet could be.

[Methous]

I'd probably try to reason with one or more of their race that would be more opened minded about such things (there surely would have to be a few). Perhaps get several Ambassadors involved to sway them and remind them that the galaxy is richer with them being a part of it. Short of that I'm afraid the Federation's "Prime directive" would take precedence here. If someone wants to allow themselves to die (dues to illness of course) then its that individuals right to do so. The state should have no right to intervene. As a Starfleet officer I would have to abide by their wishes. Sadly, regardless the consequences.
hi how are you.

[elmorenito]

I would have to allow them to go on as they wish, we should not impose are beliefs like the people have done in the past.

[Bonfyr]

It seems to me that by curing them you would not only be going against their wishes which I would find distastefull, but it might also create another enemy for the federation during a time when the federation is already in the midst of a war with tthe Klingons. The insectiods may be far enough behind technologically that they don't pose a threat militarily, but they may have valulable resources which may end up in Klingon hands, or at least unavailable to the federation if they become enemies. Don't bother with saving them unless you can convince them it is the right thing to do.

[Foxhound300]

Let them die, even though that's not the "proper" thing to do, it's their beliefs, their bodies, their choice.

If it doesn't have to be a split second decision though, I'd try to talk to them about it first.

[usstranquility09]

Not all of the Savii would be willing to die to preserve their religious beliefs. I would provide an opportunity for those savii who are willing to submit themselves to the cure. If none believe it is a worthy cause, I would take some orphaned savii children and have them cured without any of the mature savii knowing.

Of course as all of this is going on, our scientists will be conducting extensive research for an alternative cure. it will be very difficult but eventually the saviis will to survive will overcome their religious beliefs.

[Ascanious]

I believe respecting the wishes of the civilization should be held in highest priority. However, there may be a way around their religious reservations. If Starfleet could learn more about the religious views of the civilization, then perhaps Starfleet could offer a convincing argument as to why receiving the cure would not violate their religious beliefs.

I believe getting to know them is the best way to influence their decisions.

[cygnus42]

the Federation would prohibit forcing it on anyone... but if the possible cure is made known to the entire species... all it would take is one of the savii to step forward, to save the entire race. no force is needed, and the one that stepped forward, if ostracized and removed from the hive, will more than likely be welcome as a member of the federation on his/her own. besides... a few generations after the extinction point, they'll come around and be forgiving to the one that went against the rest.

if none of them volunteer on their own, then, offer any other means of medical aide, and leave it at that.

[mopar568]

I know this may sound cold but the prime directive comes into full affect here. They are not wishing of the help and it states that starfleet will not play gods or interfere with other planets.

[trekie015]

I would respect what they belive and give them a chance so that if any wish to undego the genetic "tweaks" it might be enough to save them.

[icEPiraka]

It would be more respectful not to interfere. Besides, I'll bet any race that pious enough to reject care probably isn't cut out to be an interstellar species anyway, so I'd let them die out.

[Brenland]

I would approach them with the cure, and try to convince them that divine intervention by their supreme being(s) is not for them to predict, quantify, or understand. I would explain that their salvation would not be a miracle, unless it took a leap of faith for them to accept. Is the appearance of Federation scientists bearing a cure that will perserve their entire people and culture not miraculous? The odds of my ship finding the Savvi on a planet among billions of planets, in a galaxy among thousands of galaxies are, quite literally, astronomical. I would go so far as to profess a belief that I was the unwitting bearer of their salvation, a tool of their god(s), and would urge them to join the Federation so the civilized galaxy could learn from a people ardent enough to perserve their inherent beliefs and values even in the face of total annilhation, but wise enough to know when to take their destiny in their own hands, er, appendages. If they refused me, I would heavily ponder their choice from my captain's chair Kirk style as we go into warp. Roll credits...

[Tylor_Liles]

This week's scenario is brought to you by Jace.Terrik. Good luck!

You make first contact with a civilization called the Savii. The Savii have just reached the technology level necessary for the construction of warp-speed-capable vessels. They are an insectoid race connected through a hive mind, spreading information via a complex pheromone system.

Despite their relative technological sophistication, the Savii are slowly dying out due to a hereditary illness. The Savii have been unable to discover a cure, but it turns out that Starfleet Medical will be able to negate the sickness within a generation by performing minor genetic tweaks on a handful of Savii. The cure will spread through the pheromone network instantly, curing all and sundry.

The Savii, however, are a deeply religious people and they find these suggestions of genetic alterations invasive and highly offensive.

Starfleet defers to your judgment: Would you rather let the Savii die out gradually, respecting their religious rights, or do you insist on saving them from mass extinction?

prime directive says no interference in a non federation world unless they ask for help. introduce yourself and put the offer out there. other than that you are S.O.L.

[Marvelltrek]

I've would transport up some of them and heal them and transport them back. Perhaps they feel it offense but in the ind they will be grateful. Just... aaa.... little shootie-angry-speech like in the show but in the and they will be surley grateful. :D

[Qasim]

I would send a message to them stating the importance of this cure to the survival of their speices... making it VERY clear that without it they will perish.

Hopefully they'll turn around but it's their choice in the end.

[Phlashman]

hi how are you.


Hey my friend...been a while. Just fine thanks...

[Phlashman]

the Federation would prohibit forcing it on anyone... but if the possible cure is made known to the entire species... all it would take is one of the savii to step forward, to save the entire race. no force is needed, and the one that stepped forward, if ostracized and removed from the hive, will more than likely be welcome as a member of the federation on his/her own. besides... a few generations after the extinction point, they'll come around and be forgiving to the one that went against the rest.

if none of them volunteer on their own, then, offer any other means of medical aide, and leave it at that.


Only problem with this is the Hive mind scenario...as well intentioned as this is it could still lead to years of "bad blood" or worse, between the Savii and the Federation as a whole...

[morganbateson]

the guy who mentioned it being agaisnt the prie directive to interfere, you are WRONG, the prime directive only applies to races who are pre-warp, as soon as they attain it the federation can interfere no problem, and when has the prime directive ever stopped the federation doing anything. The Prime Directive is a lie.

[jtarwin]

If we were to violate their religious beliefs to save them then they would declare a holy war upon us. Also, they are a hive mind so it is very unlikely that a few individuals would come forward to absorb the cure into their society. No... we either find a way to work within their society's limits or we risk a holy war.

Because this is a slow decline, we have the ability to diplomatically study their culture. Once our own people were experts of their religion and the ways they interpret their religion, then perhaps we could find a loophole. The hive mind means there is less verity of opinion within their society. This means we only have one very powerful opinion to persuade.

Perhaps there is a ceremony that could be worked out among the religious leaders. Something akin to “transforming into a higher people as they go to the stars.” The idea of “ascension” might also work. It has everything to do with meaning of the words that shape the minds of the faithful.

[Jamion]

I have glanced through these forums and I see a lot of 'let them die'. Most take the question as one answer or the other; however there are many variables that have been expanded on. And with the initial information given to us I find it impossible to make a clear deduction of the situation. Some question of my own in regards to the dilemma:

First - what is the rate of declination for the race? or how many generation before this hereditary disease either wipes them out or comes to the point of becoming irreversible? The reason for this question is to give us time span to work in.

Second - are there any alternative ways to introduce the genetic modification into the species? such as retro-virus, something that can be cultured into the races consumable resources, or even something that can be transmitted over an area (they mentioned that only a few modification are required and the result will transmit through the hive, this implies it may not be necessary to modify them at all but introduce the solution some other way)?

Third - obviously they have submitted to some medical tests in order for our scientists to reach a conclusion that gene mods can save the species, also it is implied that some of their cells may have been cultured during such tests and even experimented upon. Is it possible for us to replicate these cells and bring them to a level of maturity, aka clone them?

Fourth - if question three is possible, is it then possible to clone them, make the genetic modification, and then introduce the cloned individuals into the population in order to accomplish the desired effect? (The reason for this question is the possibility that their religious belief are more aimed at negating self modification of a being rather then any sort of modification in general, thus using a clone may be way around the problem of convincing one or more to under go the gene mods. as well it may be a way to have the gene mod ready to go a moments notice if they do except it)

Fifth - what exactly do the gene mods effect, and is there another way of accomplishing the same effect with out using genetic modification? aka is there a planet or species out there that may be able to accomplish the dame thing without gene mods?

Sixth - why does their religious text prevent genetic modification, and is there some loophole that would allows us to save them with out violating their religion?

Seventh - from a more aggressive stand point is their something else their world or people need that we may use as a bargaining chip for convincing one or more of the population to accept the treatment?

Eighth - from a historical stand point is there anything else that history can give us on the situation that might sway their minds to our side, even if it is only a handful of population, that would be enough to save the entire race. (final question is more of a statement)

Although ultimately if no avenue proves valid we must unfortunately let them die (prime directive or not it is their decision, and if they are in unison there is nothing that can be done against it), I would rather let them do so knowing I have exhausted every available option for trying to save them.

[EricKugota]

okay.
as a captain of the federation, and a human, i will do "more human" and illogical thing.
like a friend in the page one, i suggest to launch a torpedo in the atmposhera, charged with a cure.
if is need, teleport to the medical centre a basic citizien of the planet and make experiments.
all of this without beeing seen... then re-appear saying something about an alien ship leaving the system and askin if they are well.......


results:

civilitzation saved :D

honor and mind of the civillians intanct :D

the vulcan in the starship horrorized :D

[suraka]

Since they are of a "hive mind" trying to win over individuals would be noticed by all the Savaii and undoubtedly be looked down upon, making any other efforts harder.
I would give them the technical knowledge of how to produce a cure if they decide they would like it in the future. And send historians to observe and record their culture.
Anything else would be against the Prime Directive I think.

[Delta4Elite2]

No offence to the people who say they will give the treatment to those who want it but its not that simple because it would rapidly cure the entire race therfore eliminating the option of respecting thier religious beliefs and only giving the treatment to those who want it. No to solve this you have to try and convince them its the only way to survive and if they rather die, let them. BUT make dam sure the entire civilisation is okay with it because its morally incorrect to let JUST ONE sentian being forcefully die because of what the majority believe in. Especially when its over religious beliefs or having fate. PROVE THER IS A GOD:mad:

[Onyx135]

Great. Science vs. Religion. If i were the cadet to get stuck with this kobayashi maru i would end up killing myself. My solution would involve trying to find a loophole in their religion that would let them save themselvs but also not have to feel horribe about it.

[tallguy86]

once again the prime directive states that you cannot interfere unless asked and even then in only a way that the culture agrees to so you can only help any of them if a sect comes to you saying that they are ok with genetic manipulation. otherwise say goodbye to any friends you have made they won't be around much longer.

[Kheren]

the guy who mentioned it being agaisnt the prie directive to interfere, you are WRONG, the prime directive only applies to races who are pre-warp, as soon as they attain it the federation can interfere no problem, and when has the prime directive ever stopped the federation doing anything. The Prime Directive is a lie.


With all due respect, get your facts straight: The following are not made up: they are the actual General Orders as published by official canon sources since 1970:

General Order 1: The Prime Directive

As the right of each sentient species to live in accordance with its normal cultural evolution is considered sacred, no Starfleet personnel may interfere with the normal and healthy development of alien life and culture. Such interference includes introducing superior knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely. Starfleet personnel may not violate this Prime Directive, even to save their lives and/or their ship, unless they are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental contamination of said culture. This directive takes precedence over any and all other considerations, and carries with it the highest moral obligation.

If you read correctly:
- it has nothing to do with pre-warp societies, nor is it limited to them (thus the term in broad italics). Less advanced cultures are just the most vulnerable... like your own American History showed with the Amerinds. But it is not just a question of vulnerability; it is foremost a question of respect and freedom.
- Don't define the world ''healthy' according to your own values: it is ''healthy'' in nature to let some species disappear for others to evolve. Who can say this ''genocide'' is not the normal way of this unknown species or ecosystem to evolve into a higher level of existence, and their religion just expresses it? Interfering because we reject death as a natural process of existence may be condemning them to stagnation or worse. Each and every time humans did that. it resulted in utter disaster. That's why the prime Directive was created in the first place.
-The very first phrase is the cornerstone of it all. Read it again and you will understand that the Prime Directive do exactly apply here. It is not even a KM unless your ethics are faulty or pliable.
-The very last phrase is the very spirit of it. Forcing the cure or tricking them into it is what is wrong.

Now please read this:

General Order 30
Starfleet Command recognizes the right of each ship commander to interpret the specifications of the Prime Directive as he sees fit, consistent with the conditions of other existing general orders in effect, and based upon circumstances that may arise in dealing with newly discovered sentient races.

There is the trap: you may interfere... but never forget the cornerstone of the Prime Directive, the very first phrase, before you consider it. If you do not respect the right of this society to live in accordance with their cultural evolution but impose your own, you make it a lie.

The fact that, in some instances, some officers pushed the privileges of General order 30 to it's extremes, or even in some cases broke it, does not say the Federation condones such actions, or disregard as a rule it's own policies. Only that some are not up to the challenge of responsibility it is to be a Starfleet Captain... or placed in such circumstances that they judge (sometimes wrongly) that they must.

And remember this; These are Starfleet General Orders, not Federation Law: only members of Starfleet swears an oath to uphold them; citizens of the Federation are not bound by it... although it is among the duties of Starfleet personnel to police the citizenry regarding contact with other cultures.

The lie comes when you have a Starfleet officer saying things like ''a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Federation''; wich is another way of saying: the ends justify the means... the motto of every tyrant, dictator, despoiler and exploitative profiteer throughout human History.

[andzzy]

Save the Savii.

One possible way of saving the Savii would be to attempt to convince them that their advancement as a race would depend on their continued existence. By boosting their ego as an entire race, they may believe that they may actually aspire to great things. This way, they may even ask for the genetic alteration. And voila, no secret retrovirus, no covert attempt at rebellion, and virtually no violation of the Prime Directive. The perfect solution for the Federation.

[Kohlar]

I would ask the leader of the savii or whatever is simaler to the leader and if he says yes give us the cure than it will be done some of the savii may not like this but Starfleet offered and they exsepted but if at all posabal we could sever the link to the ones that do not want the treatment and it would be dealt with that why so that everyone wins

[MajorD]

The prime directive is clear. If they don't want help, then you don't give help. All I could do is figure out another option to help them, if they want another option. Frankly, being able to cause physical changes through pheromone transfer is probably the key, it indicates an inbuilt ability to change their own genetics.

[Krajor]

I would inform them of the prime directive and that we can not interfere even if it means they eventually die out, unless they ask for our help. I would also inform them how eventually their will be those who will see an oportunity to claim their world as a colony eventually wiping out any evidence of a species which reached the ability to finally explore the stars with the rest of the other civiilizations.

Allow the Federation to help them preserve their historical records so that when they are gone, they will be remembered.

In the meantime I would have my anthropology department use all the resources they have to find a loop hole within the belief system that would allow them to be saved from eventual extinction. Their findings I would then present to the ruling body showing how we can save them without offending them.

[IAn]

It would be futile to force help on those who dont want it and thus i would try to send them all the data required to manufacture the cure themselves. I would also impress upon them to work towards a cure in a way that is in keeping with their beliefs.

However, before giving them any data, I would have to thoroughly evaluate their culture to see if they could one day be worthy of Federation Membership and might potentially be valuable Federation citizens subscribing to Federation values. My help would be conditional on this more than simply compassion.

[chuckles69]

Well this one is clear cut, I have done all I can. I would advise them of the option and allow it to be their decision. Perhaps over a couple of generations their postition will change. They or the Federation may find another option that is more acceptable to their society at a late time.

As a Star Fleet Officer I am obligated to respect their culture and their wishes.

[typhoonjim]

The PRIME DIRECTIVE must be observed ! If they choose a slow death so be it.IF they change their mind
we will offer the help again. Until then we will be in the area.




TYPHOONJIN

[KlinZha]

Oh you Feds must always complicate things.....lol This is ever so simple. I would respect their ways, and would not interfear with those who would want to dy. I would also make it common knowledge that if any of them want the cure that it would be administered upon request. I would also inform them should they need any assistance from the Empire they'll recieve it, even if it's to help ease their passing, for their wishes must of course be respected. I would of course invite any of their scholars and scientists to share and record what knowledge they have of themselvs so that they'll be remembered. Naturally this'll have the possible added benifit that they may possess a technology that may aidin our war efforts, ya never know...lol Further it'll gain the Empire a free system which'll hopefully give the Empire exploitable resources.
It's win/ win for the Empire...lol Never let it be said that we Klingons don't adhere to the free will of the sheepole....ehem people. We'll adhere to inter Galatic Law as is applicable.

Ya know...should you feds need assistance with your worlds....governance, for example. We klingons stand ready to step up, and take care of you. You need do nothing. We'll take care of everything for you, so you may enjoy lives without troubles or cares, we'll even do your thinking for you. Obviously you can't solve a simple problem on your won....KlinZha soothingly says " it's ok...we understand...choice is hard, life is hard, decissions are hard on you, we'll deal with things for you.

[Talenus]

Oh you Feds must always complicate things.....lol This is ever so simple. I would respect their ways, and would not interfear with those who would want to dy. I would also make it common knowledge that if any of them want the cure that it would be administered upon request. I would also inform them should they need any assistance from the Empire they'll recieve it, even if it's to help ease their passing, for their wishes must of course be respected. I would of course invite any of their scholars and scientists to share and record what knowledge they have of themselvs so that they'll be remembered. Naturally this'll have the possible added benifit that they may possess a technology that may aidin our war efforts, ya never know...lol Further it'll gain the Empire a free system which'll hopefully give the Empire exploitable resources.
It's win/ win for the Empire...lol Never let it be said that we Klingons don't adhere to the free will of the sheepole....ehem people. We'll adhere to inter Galatic Law as is applicable.

Ya know...should you feds need assistance with your worlds....governance, for example. We klingons stand ready to step up, and take care of you. You need do nothing. We'll take care of everything for you, so you may enjoy lives without troubles or cares, we'll even do your thinking for you. Obviously you can't solve a simple problem on your won....KlinZha soothingly says " it's ok...we understand...choice is hard, life is hard, decissions are hard on you, we'll deal with things for you.


For some unknown reason....can't imagin why....Admiral Cartwright comes to mind.....:rolleyes:

[bushidodragon9]

1st Answer as a human: To Persuade them to take the vaccine.
2nd Answer: The Prime Directive states that we cannot interfere with there lives so they will die.
3rd Answer: Find a different answer, find a different cure there is no such thing as a no win scenereo.

[Andruith]

There Beliefs must look like there are being up held while you and you crew find a way to save there lives.

[gothelder]

This week's scenario is brought to you by Jace.Terrik. Good luck!

You make first contact with a civilization called the Savii. The Savii have just reached the technology level necessary for the construction of warp-speed-capable vessels. They are an insectoid race connected through a hive mind, spreading information via a complex pheromone system.

Despite their relative technological sophistication, the Savii are slowly dying out due to a hereditary illness. The Savii have been unable to discover a cure, but it turns out that Starfleet Medical will be able to negate the sickness within a generation by performing minor genetic tweaks on a handful of Savii. The cure will spread through the pheromone network instantly, curing all and sundry.

The Savii, however, are a deeply religious people and they find these suggestions of genetic alterations invasive and highly offensive.

Starfleet defers to your judgment: Would you rather let the Savii die out gradually, respecting their religious rights, or do you insist on saving them from mass extinction?

Give them the information on how to preserve the species, then leave the planet, Visit again in a hundred years to see if they have sorted themselves out. If So, fine, If not then it was entirely their choice.

Nice thing about the hive mind. Once you tell one being, everybody knows.

[Tylor_Liles]

For some unknown reason....can't imagin why....Admiral Cartwright comes to mind.....:rolleyes:

what about ADMIRAL EDWARD JELLICO?

[trebort5050]

In the worlds of Admiral Kirk.... "Let them die!"

[mattmurdocknz]

Short answer: Let them die.

Long answer: The prime directive strictly prohibits actions taken against a race that might interfere with that race's development, even if it means that development will cease. The rights and beliefs of that race are tantamount considerations when dealing with a different species.

My suggestion is to do anything possible within the laws and beliefs of the race, and otherwise, leave them alone. The Federation stands for honesty, honor, and the right for a race of people to live, or die, as they wish on their own world.

Bingo.

We must respect the wishes of their race and their beliefs.
Because of the nature of their pheromone network, it would be impossible for a selected "few" to choose to recieve the cure without passing it on involuntarilly to the rest of their culture.
Depending on the nature of thier "Hive Mind" If they have indervidual personalities and desires, then If the Federation was to offer "Asylum" to members of the species that wishes to be cured, it would have to be on the basis of relocation far enough from their original homeworld to not "contaminate" those who have chosen to not be cured. In return, the colony would have to become a participating member in the Federation in exchange for the assistance rendered.
The Federation should encourage the the Savii to allow their people to be aware of the choices and choose from the options available to them.
If the hive Mind means that they do not have indervidual personalities and opinions then their feelings and decision will be unanimous one way or the other.

The Savii stand on the brink of warp drive and expansion into the galactic stage. If the disease is as slow as discribed then nature may take its course, and the enlightenment from interactions on a galactic scale with other species may change their minds before it is too late, rendering the discussion a moot point.

[Vorgse]

It's as simple as referring back to your days at the academy learning the prime directive by heart. You can't interfere with the natural progression of a race or species unless they are A) Post-Warp -and- B)Asking for assistance. Knowing the collective-like status of the species makes for another simple decision. Broadcast the fact that the Federation has a cure, if people want it, to the general populace, find a few people who don't want to die and ask for help, cure them and send them home, problem solved. If no one asks for help leave them Starfleet's frequency and continue on course, it wouldn't be the first time a Post-Warp civilization went extinct, or close enough to it.

[Stopher87]

My hands are tied by the prime directive. Even if star fleet is on the fence i can not be. Introducing this cure would be an insult to their species and might ultimately turn them against us. I would try to make them see it our way, but if they decided to not accept our help they must accept the consequences.

This question is funny. It seems that everyone who quotes the prime directive will join starfleet and everyone else will join the klingons.

[Isterio]

Well ...

Some ideas were already mentioned, but here is, what I could chose from.

Idea 1: Don't do anything.
Does the planet have any interesting resources? Does the population generate anything of a certain value? Even the Feds are politicians. Why bothering too much with a race or planet you can't actually get anything valuable from? If there is nothing of interest, one could hide behind the rules and just let them die. If they're gone, it is possible to build a colony for the humans.

Idea 2: Fight fire with fire.
Earth has so many religions and experts in this matter. It should be quite easy to form a team of wise men to gather religious arguments against the extinction of this race. 1. Analyze the religion 2. Compare it to earths religions 3. Build up a solid argumentation 4. Irritate the population with your wisdom and make them doubt.

Since they have the warp technology already, it shouldn't be a problem to at least try to change their mind with words.

Idea 3: Save the few, who want to be saved.
There are always some, who want to survive. Offer them a new home and heal them there. Like this at least the race continues existing.

Idea 4: Save all by saving the ones, who want to live.
"We are helping the ones, who accept our help. It's not our fault that this automatically cures all of your kind. Suicide is still an option for you though." Like this you get even rid of the fundamentalists, if you're lucky.


Ideas 2 and 3 are my favorites. Why forcing your own will on a different race? One does not understand their culture and values and should not judge them.


Isterio out

[dieuwe10]

They're animals!
Jimmy, they are dying.
Let them die!

[Bomyne]

I defer to the prime directive. Starfleet does not interfer in evolution, even if evolution means extinction.

[adonils]

I would discuss it with their hive mind, and let them know that they are always welcome to assistance if they want it in the future. I would also see if there was an alternative cure that would work with their beliefs. If any Savii wanted asylum, they would be more than welcome and could receive the cure. I'm sure the closer to the end, the more desperate they would become, but I would respect their wishes.

[Knightmair]

The problem with giving the cure to only the few of them that want the cure is that once they are re introduced back into the hive mind the cure will be spread out to everyone else who did not want the cure. So that is a loose scenario right there.

Forcing people to go against their beliefs can cause outrage and even war to uphold their religious rights. They may not be amazingly technologically advanced but they may be willing to die to uphold their beliefs so even forcing a cure on the whole population could cause an issue, especially with a hive mind. It would only take for those in control to not like the idea and the rest under them will follow suit.

I would stick to negotiations, along with the negotiations to join the federation but let them know they do not have to accept the cure, maybe they will want information so they can come up with a way on their own. If they come up with their own way it is likely they will be more willing to accept the cure and find some religious loop hole them selves. However they find it offensive if we suggest genetic engineering.

There is also the study into their own culture. See how it works, not just on the religious side, but maybe see if there is something causing the genetic defaults.

This whole thing I think should be left to negotiations and research and letting them have the most control in their lives and simply offering assistance where it is accepted.

The one thing I see as an issue to their race though is once they have spread out into space, there will likely be fracturing of this hive mind, unless they come up with a way to keep the hive link intact. Since they use pheromones they are not likely going to be able to stay connected to the main hive mind over planetary distances. So maybe the opportunity to save them would be at the point when they have spread out and stay out in space for long flights at a time. But that could take decades before they could get to a stage where there are a few segmented savii. The other issue is those once separated from the hive mind will not be able to rejoin if they do decide to have the cure and it could be considered unethical if you try to get them to take the cure if they have only recently separated from such a hive mind as they may be considered prone to suggestion since they will not be getting the regular input from the hive mind.

Sometimes you just have to offer, or try to speak to people to negotiate, without trying to imply genetic engineering, slowly work into it avoiding the kill words that will end the negotiations there and then and if it does not work then that is unfortunate.

[cartmen180]

As the right of each sentient species to live in accordance with its normal cultural evolution is considered sacred, no Starfleet personnel may interfere with the normal and healthy development of alien life and culture. Such interference includes introducing superior knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely. Starfleet personnel may not violate this Prime Directive, even to save their lives and/or their ship, unless they are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental contamination of said culture. This directive takes precedence over any and all other considerations, and carries with it the highest moral obligation.

it clearly states we cannot intervene.

[Commander_Cruz]

As the right of each sentient species to live in accordance with its normal cultural evolution is considered sacred, no Starfleet personnel may interfere with the normal and healthy development of alien life and culture. Such interference includes introducing superior knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely. Starfleet personnel may not violate this Prime Directive, even to save their lives and/or their ship, unless they are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental contamination of said culture. This directive takes precedence over any and all other considerations, and carries with it the highest moral obligation.

it clearly states we cannot intervene.

As sad as it would be to stand back and watch an an entire race die out I would have to agree. We would have no right to impose our way of life on another civalization.

[IT_IS_GREEN]

I would definitely respect their beliefs. At the same time, I would do my best to make sure that they all wanted the same thing. if there was a minority (or a majority) of Savii who secretly wanted to survive, I would gladly do what I could to help them, even if it meant walking a potentially dangerous diplomatic tightrope.

[Levry]

As is the protocol with the Prime Directive, after you have established the Federations presence and the Savii learn that they are not alone in the universe, the decision is up to them. Should they elect to save their species, we should assist where possible. Should they refuse, the federation can assist as much as they are comfortable with and that should be that.

All in all, the odds of them not accepting help when facing extinction is slim to none.

[ussvoyager74656]

The Prime Directive clearly dictates that we can NOT interfere with the natural evolution of this species. Since they are not members of the Federation, they are to die out unless they can find their own cure.

[Usagi7]

How could you not let them die? To do anything proactively to save them against their will would go against almost everything the Federation stands for. That being said, if for some reason any individuals of the species want to go under treatment, they should be taken in, cut-off from the rest of the species, and cured in isolation.

[Thuzan]

ultimately you can't force a race to be cured but as a captain i would pressure them to accept the gene therapy, meanwhile examining their religious texts for a possible loophole or justification to make it more morally appealing.

[Conman]

Sugesting that there illness and the cure the federation has could be a celestial message insisting live with the federation or die. If they don't come around then oh wells call in the borg.

[masteen]

Is sending in a battalion of Mobile Infantry an option? How about nuking the site from orbit? After all, the only good bug is a dead bug.

[KLBushway]

its called the Prime Directive. Plus starfleet rules say that if they dont ask for our help, then we can't get involved. this one is a no-brainer.

[omegabigb]

well the solution:

the prime directive seems to aply, tell them starfleet will offer any and all asitance if it is disired if not starfleet will not intervere whatever the result may be

[Gerrard]

Transmit your offer to the planet on an open frequency that anyone can pick up. Thus ensuring anyone that wants the cure is given it. Then walk away from it until someone comes to you from the planet. Thus you are NOT violating the Prime Directive, but you are giving them the opportunity to survive.

[Ellye]

I feel it is their choice. If they want to die out because of beliefs, then its more important to them than the machinery, but save the cure in case some of the people do want it.

[CaptainScotia]

Make the offer, if they refuse respect their decision but assist them in a civilisation wide archiving project. Just because they are physically dying out doesn't mean there isn't a way to preserve their art, literature, philosophy and general culture.

[ecliptico]

I would have my chief negotiator and my historian study on their religion to assist in finding a "loophole". Religion has played a part in the rise and fall of almost every civilization. If a diplomatic solution can't be reached, even when faced with certain extinction, a race or being will give its life for its faith. Lets hope they're not wrong about their deity stepping in and intervening.

[Havlicek]

Integrate the cure into one of their religious rites, the cure will spread, maybe even appear like a gift from their god. And no one is offended and a race is saved. To above who aid some must be open minded.... they're a hive mind, so the chances of finding an "individual" in a hive mind seems unlikely at best.

[ObsidianBlk]

As has already been stated, the federation cannot help the Savii unless directly asked. Seeing as the species is a hive-mind, the chances of there being any one group that would go against the religion of the species is highly unlikely. If the hive-mind is not a singular entity, then, realistically, there may only be a few thousand individual "minds" among the Savii to begin with.

On a similar tangent, however, if even one of those collective minds decides to go for the cure, Hundreds of thousands of lives would be saved in a single swoop. Even if they were ostracized from the rest of their race, that would only last for the generation or two it takes for the rest of the species to die.

Lastly... in my opinion, a hive-minded insectoid species would never be able to get along with the races of the federation in the first place. Not that the federation wouldn't try, but in a hive-mind, a individual life is not important. For such a species it's very likely their method of saying "hello" would begin by the slaughter of an entire colony, because, in a hive of hundreds of thousands, to tens of millions, whats a few hundred lives? To an insect, that's just a "Hello, Nice to meet you. May I come and visit?"

[bryann380]

General Order 1: "No starship may interfere with the normal development of any alien life or society."

But if the Savii asked for our assistance in the modifications, then GO1 does not apply. So until they do, there's nothing to be done but watch them die out.

[xarb]

OH man, yet again the roll of Star Fleet..

I urge them to honor their beliefs and perhaps find a way through their own inner workers to accept the aid Star Fleet has to offer, pointing out that extinction of a species is not for the greater good.


The klingon answer.
PAh! Let the insects die out, even a mindless tigla knows when its hurt!

[wired]

Would it not be imoral to suggest such a cure to a highly religious community, considering the uprising or rebellions it may create? Be they a hive mind or not, they remain individuals with individual thoughts and opinions, and therfor are subject to rebelious behavior. It would be my opinion that to best preserve their dwindling population, that we remain detached for the moment and observe the development of events. A solution should present itself in time. Simply suggesting a cure might well incite war, or create factions among a religiously harmonious society. The Federation will not be responsible for the outbreak of war, nor the resourses necessary to assist in quelling any rebellious uprising and undoing what we could have prevented in the first place.

[garryst6]

The Federation has a Prime Directive of non-interference. That's the Law. We all know that there may be ways, loopholes, around such a draconian measure, especially when it involves such a position as stated in the Kobyashi scenario. To allow an entire race to die while doing nothing (the Law) would make the Federation somewhat guilty of moral genocide. This is based on our own ethical and moral standard (human) although Romulan and Klingon standards are certainly different.

However, there may be a way. The stated problem included the information that the Hive mind was connected through pheremone interaction, not telepathy or similar methods. It might be possible to search for individuals who might sacrifice their own beliefs, or disagree (it wants to live!) with the outcome, who would be willing to accept the Federation assistance. Then though the Pheremone interaction (doubt the instantaneous nature of smell communication - on board a spaceship the Great Leader on a planet might have to wait till they are in smelling range) the cure will be spread thru the population. Although the cure would be religiously odious it would fall on the shoulders of the individual(s) who made the decision. Since it is an axiom of reality that the presence of an observer affects the observed then the mere fact of the Federation's existance and possession of a cure has already contaminated (interfered) with the Savil race integrity. The affect of the Fed presence will effect the future of the Savil, therefore following the moral and ethical standards of our own beliefs we can save those who ask help and the assistance to the entire race is coincidental and positive to both races.

Is the above solution (not a certain one) mere sophistry? Possibly but if we saw the Savil about to be destroyed by some other natural disaster (nova etc...) would we interfere? We here in reality in the USA have a case already. A 13 yr old boy with a treatable cancer was taught, religiously, that no medical treatement was wanted by his own parents, or himself. The court ordered his treatment and took upon its own shoulders the responsibility for the violation of the religious beliefs. As a single individual I would treat in any way possible as many of the Savil as possible to save their lives. They could be as mad at me as they wanted. Rant, rave and condemn, whatever, at least they will survive to do so.

[Battleshipt]

trip one and make him fall of a cliff...beam him to sickbay to "help" him recover and while he is asleep give him the cure and instantly all of them get the cure

[atergoboy]

Prime Directive says we cannot interfere in their cultural decisions.

Therefore, ask permission to setup a Federation base/colony on the planet. That would make us available if they changed their mind about the cure, and if not, it would unable us to immediately colonize.

[Phlashman]

Oh you Feds must always complicate things.....lol This is ever so simple. I would respect their ways, and would not interfear with those who would want to dy. I would also make it common knowledge that if any of them want the cure that it would be administered upon request. I would also inform them should they need any assistance from the Empire they'll recieve it, even if it's to help ease their passing, for their wishes must of course be respected. I would of course invite any of their scholars and scientists to share and record what knowledge they have of themselvs so that they'll be remembered. Naturally this'll have the possible added benifit that they may possess a technology that may aidin our war efforts, ya never know...lol Further it'll gain the Empire a free system which'll hopefully give the Empire exploitable resources.
It's win/ win for the Empire...lol Never let it be said that we Klingons don't adhere to the free will of the sheepole....ehem people. We'll adhere to inter Galatic Law as is applicable.

Ya know...should you feds need assistance with your worlds....governance, for example. We klingons stand ready to step up, and take care of you. You need do nothing. We'll take care of everything for you, so you may enjoy lives without troubles or cares, we'll even do your thinking for you. Obviously you can't solve a simple problem on your won....KlinZha soothingly says " it's ok...we understand...choice is hard, life is hard, decissions are hard on you, we'll deal with things for you.


Typical "Klingon" answer.:D

[beowulfx]

Surely,
There will be those that do not wish to see their race die out. I would seek them out and offer them assistance and safety aboard my vessel. Once it can be proven to their homeworld that this is a viable solution that can be incorporated into their society and belief systems they can make the decision from there. Otherwise those wishing to survive could be relocated to a nearby system to form a colony of their own

[KlinZha]

You Fed's never cease to amaze me. Though you don't realize it, you're in a sense, perhaps the best allies/ servants of the Empire's goals, for while you stew with indecision, and debate with.....boo hoo this or boo hoo that...nothing is done lol, meanwhile, we Klingons have already solved this problem with.... compassionate action respecting all those involved.....Whether they take the cure or not, we Klingons are seen as their saviors, and we reap the rewards. Further do you even know your own laws? Does not the prime directive apply only to those cultures "not" avanced enough for warp, nor does it appy to those having a tech if not comparable to yours, close to it? lol A Klingon instructing feds as to their laws....this is priceless! There are loop holes. use them when you must. Further no law is just if is so absolute that compassion is ignored.

We Klingons are always willing to step up and do the right thing. With power comes grave responcibilty. Again should you require our assistance the Empire will aid you. We'll be more than delighted to deal with the administration of day to day affiars, and problem solving deficientcies you appear to have.

[Techrat3D]

Give them the offer.

If they refuse, learn as much from them as possible, before archeologists and historians spend decades trying to figure everything out.
Plus, you have a new planet to colonize.

If they eventually agree, help them.
Then learn as much from them as possible, before the next disaster strikes.

[Kheren]

You Fed's never cease to amaze me.

And you haven't seen anything yet.

Though you don't realize it, you're in a sense, perhaps the best allies/ servants of the Empire's goals, for while you stew with indecision, and debate with.....boo hoo this or boo hoo that...nothing is done lol,

This spirit of goodwill is very encouraging. As for indecision and debate, what indecision? What debate? General order 1 automatically answers this problem in the time it takes to read it... if you read it correctly.

meanwhile, we Klingons have already solved this problem with.... compassionate action respecting all those involved.....Whether they take the cure or not, we Klingons are seen as their saviors, and we reap the rewards.

How little you understand. What distinguishes the Federation from any ''Empire'' is that we do not impose our values and culture nor exploit the weakness of others for our own ''glory'' and delude ourselves in beleiving we do '' good.''

Further do you even know your own laws? Does not the prime directive apply only to those cultures "not" avanced enough for warp, nor does it appy to those having a tech if not comparable to yours, close to it? lol

How little you know. Please read post no 78 on this thread and learn. The Prime Directive is not limited to less advanced cultures at all. Even you Klingons were saved and are protected by the Prime Directive... that is why you have not been conquered during the Praxis incident nor annexed during your Civil War

A Klingon instructing feds as to their laws....this is priceless! There are loop holes. use them when you must. Further no law is just if is so absolute that compassion is ignored.

A Klingon equating compassion with exploitation and cultural dictatorship, with self-interest and trickery, with criminal intent and action... and deluding himself in teaching us anything: that alone says a lot. Let me teach you our laws: Who are you to deny this people their freedom of choosing their own fate according to their own belief? Certainly not the Federation. We demand no less and no more than what we give to others. We do not conquer; we do not impose: we do not exploit: we share the universe... starting with you.

We Klingons are always willing to step up and do the right thing. With power comes grave responcibilty.

Spoken like a true Romulan Senator.

Again should you require our assistance the Empire will aid you. We'll be more than delighted to deal with the administration of day to day affiars, and problem solving deficientcies you appear to have.

Collaboration between our two peoples is most welcomed, as it can always be beneficial to both. In exchange for your self-alleged administrative competence, we will be more than willing to help you learn the values of Truth, Respect and Freedom for all, wich you evidently need to understand.

Then you will understand why the Federation has prospered so well and for so long; you will understand even why it has been willing and able to save your own culture and solve your problems when you were facing extinction... following your so excellent administrative practices leading to the Praxis catastrophy... and again during the last Klingon Civil War.

You are in luck; your very best ambassador,most prominent citizen and among the most respected warriors of your time has been educated by Starfleet for decades. You should do well on your own from now on.

Q'apla!


'' These words were not written for chiefs, and warriors or for the rich and powerful but for everyone!
They were not written only for the Yanks but for the Comms as well!
They must apply to everyone or they mean nothing! ''

James T Kirk

ST:TOS: The Omega Glory

[trebort5050]

You Fed's never cease to amaze me.

And you haven't seen anything yet.

Though you don't realize it, you're in a sense, perhaps the best allies/ servants of the Empire's goals, for while you stew with indecision, and debate with.....boo hoo this or boo hoo that...nothing is done lol,

This spirit of goodwill is very encouraging. As for indecision and debate, what indecision? What debate? General order 1 automatically answers this problem in the time it takes to read it... if you read it correctly.

meanwhile, we Klingons have already solved this problem with.... compassionate action respecting all those involved.....Whether they take the cure or not, we Klingons are seen as their saviors, and we reap the rewards.

How little you understand. What distinguishes the Federation from any ''Empire'' is that we do not impose our values and culture nor exploit the weakness of others for our own ''glory'' and delude ourselves in beleiving we do '' good.''

Further do you even know your own laws? Does not the prime directive apply only to those cultures "not" avanced enough for warp, nor does it appy to those having a tech if not comparable to yours, close to it? lol

How little you know. Please read post no 78 on this thread and learn. The Prime Directive is not limited to less advanced cultures at all. Even you Klingons were saved and are protected by the Prime Directive... that is why you have not been conquered during the Praxis incident nor annexed during your Civil War

A Klingon instructing feds as to their laws....this is priceless! There are loop holes. use them when you must. Further no law is just if is so absolute that compassion is ignored.

A Klingon equating compassion with exploitation and cultural dictatorship, with self-interest and trickery, with criminal intent and action... and deluding himself in teaching us anything: that alone says a lot. Let me teach you our laws: Who are you to deny this people their freedom of choosing their own fate according to their own belief? Certainly not the Federation. We demand no less and no more than what we give to others. We do not conquer; we do not impose: we do not exploit: we share the universe... starting with you.

We Klingons are always willing to step up and do the right thing. With power comes grave responcibilty.

Spoken like a true Romulan Senator.

Again should you require our assistance the Empire will aid you. We'll be more than delighted to deal with the administration of day to day affiars, and problem solving deficientcies you appear to have.

Collaboration between our two peoples is most welcomed, as it can always be beneficial to both. In exchange for your self-alleged administrative competence, we will be more than willing to help you learn the values of Truth, Respect and Freedom for all, wich you evidently need to understand.

Then you will understand why the Federation has prospered so well and for so long; you will understand even why it has been willing and able to save your own culture and solve your problems when you were facing extinction... following your so excellent administrative practices leading to the Praxis catastrophy... and again during the last Klingon Civil War.

You are in luck; your very best ambassador,most prominent citizen and among the most respected warriors of your time has been educated by Starfleet for decades. You should do well on your own from now on.

Q'apla!


'' These words were not written for chiefs, and warriors or for the rich and powerful but for everyone!
They were not written only for the Yanks but for the Comms as well!
They must apply to everyone or they mean nothing! ''

James T Kirk

ST:TOS: The Omega Glory

You are now officially my legal eagle.

[arwan]

maybe im blind but i fail to see the no win situation in this scenario.. as was stated rather quickly. you can make the offer to save there race without starting a religious war. and still pass the test. something that the kobayashi maru should not have .. i see no reason why star fleet would break there own self imposed laws to save a race that did not want saving. no need to start another war on another front no mater how small when your about to go to war with the Klingon's and there alliance.

[trebort5050]

maybe im blind but i fail to see the no win situation in this scenario.. as was stated rather quickly. you can make the offer to save there race without starting a religious war. and still pass the test. something that the kobayashi maru should not have .. i see no reason why star fleet would break there own self imposed laws to save a race that did not want saving. no need to start another war on another front no mater how small when your about to go to war with the Klingon's and there alliance.

I was thinking that, but I'm too scared of people to say anything!

[yardbird]

maybe im blind but i fail to see the no win situation in this scenario.. as was stated rather quickly. you can make the offer to save there race without starting a religious war. and still pass the test. something that the kobayashi maru should not have .. i see no reason why star fleet would break there own self imposed laws to save a race that did not want saving. no need to start another war on another front no mater how small when your about to go to war with the Klingon's and there alliance.

It's only a no-win if the hive-race's refusal is set in stone forever, and their self-imposed extinction interpreted as some kind of bitter tragedy that mars the soul of humanity.

Otherwise, it's easy to get through successfully. Without violating General Order 1, a captain can issue a standing offer of Federation aid to the hive, should it change it's collective mind, as it may well do with the passage of time and the inevitable transformations of ideology and principles.

Ultimately, if the hive is determined, based upon its own native lights, to pursue a course of gradual annihilation, that is their business and not the UFP's. It is as much a case of free self-determination as it is a kind of tragedy.

[thefreshjedi]

It's only a no-win if the hive-race's refusal is set in stone forever, and their self-imposed extinction interpreted as some kind of bitter tragedy that mars the soul of humanity.

Otherwise, it's easy to get through successfully. Without violating General Order 1, a captain can issue a standing offer of Federation aid to the hive, should it change it's collective mind, as it may well do with the passage of time and the inevitable transformations of ideology and principles.

Ultimately, if the hive is determined, based upon its own native lights, to pursue a course of gradual annihilation, that is their business and not the UFP's. It is as much a case of free self-determination as it is a kind of tragedy.

I like this interpretation the best, but I must agree with Arwan too, in that, this is a pretty weak no-win scenario. It should rather be called a "no-brainer" scenario.

"Hey there nice religious bug people, here's some medicines to keep you alive, what's that? No? Rather drink the coolaid eh? Okay suit yourself then... helm, set course for Seti-Alpha prime, Warp 5."

I win.

-avery

[garry4]

This week's scenario is brought to you by Jace.Terrik. Good luck!

You make first contact with a civilization called the Savii. The Savii have just reached the technology level necessary for the construction of warp-speed-capable vessels. They are an insectoid race connected through a hive mind, spreading information via a complex pheromone system.

Despite their relative technological sophistication, the Savii are slowly dying out due to a hereditary illness. The Savii have been unable to discover a cure, but it turns out that Starfleet Medical will be able to negate the sickness within a generation by performing minor genetic tweaks on a handful of Savii. The cure will spread through the pheromone network instantly, curing all and sundry.

The Savii, however, are a deeply religious people and they find these suggestions of genetic alterations invasive and highly offensive.

Starfleet defers to your judgment: Would you rather let the Savii die out gradually, respecting their religious rights, or do you insist on saving them from mass extinction?

the prime directive is in effect, wecan't start playing god.

[garry4]

the prime directive is in effect, we can't start playing god everytime it suits us.

[Tarrin01]

As stated the prime directive is in effect.

However should the captain feel more should be done then a message to SFC should be sent.
Then the SFC can follow up with ambassiadors if they feel that it is of consern.

[Solomon_Kane]

This is why I liked the NX Enterprise... Prime Directive, what's that? Let's force our will upon you.

Heck, lets save these people whether they like it or not... of course I will dress my crew up like Romulans while we do it though.

[KlinZha]

You Fed's never cease to amaze me.

And you haven't seen anything yet.

Though you don't realize it, you're in a sense, perhaps the best allies/ servants of the Empire's goals, for while you stew with indecision, and debate with.....boo hoo this or boo hoo that...nothing is done lol,

This spirit of goodwill is very encouraging. As for indecision and debate, what indecision? What debate? General order 1 automatically answers this problem in the time it takes to read it... if you read it correctly.

meanwhile, we Klingons have already solved this problem with.... compassionate action respecting all those involved.....Whether they take the cure or not, we Klingons are seen as their saviors, and we reap the rewards.

How little you understand. What distinguishes the Federation from any ''Empire'' is that we do not impose our values and culture nor exploit the weakness of others for our own ''glory'' and delude ourselves in beleiving we do '' good.''

Further do you even know your own laws? Does not the prime directive apply only to those cultures "not" avanced enough for warp, nor does it appy to those having a tech if not comparable to yours, close to it? lol

How little you know. Please read post no 78 on this thread and learn. The Prime Directive is not limited to less advanced cultures at all. Even you Klingons were saved and are protected by the Prime Directive... that is why you have not been conquered during the Praxis incident nor annexed during your Civil War

A Klingon instructing feds as to their laws....this is priceless! There are loop holes. use them when you must. Further no law is just if is so absolute that compassion is ignored.

A Klingon equating compassion with exploitation and cultural dictatorship, with self-interest and trickery, with criminal intent and action... and deluding himself in teaching us anything: that alone says a lot. Let me teach you our laws: Who are you to deny this people their freedom of choosing their own fate according to their own belief? Certainly not the Federation. We demand no less and no more than what we give to others. We do not conquer; we do not impose: we do not exploit: we share the universe... starting with you.

We Klingons are always willing to step up and do the right thing. With power comes grave responcibilty.

Spoken like a true Romulan Senator.

Again should you require our assistance the Empire will aid you. We'll be more than delighted to deal with the administration of day to day affiars, and problem solving deficientcies you appear to have.

Collaboration between our two peoples is most welcomed, as it can always be beneficial to both. In exchange for your self-alleged administrative competence, we will be more than willing to help you learn the values of Truth, Respect and Freedom for all, wich you evidently need to understand.

Then you will understand why the Federation has prospered so well and for so long; you will understand even why it has been willing and able to save your own culture and solve your problems when you were facing extinction... following your so excellent administrative practices leading to the Praxis catastrophy... and again during the last Klingon Civil War.

You are in luck; your very best ambassador,most prominent citizen and among the most respected warriors of your time has been educated by Starfleet for decades. You should do well on your own from now on.

Q'apla!


'' These words were not written for chiefs, and warriors or for the rich and powerful but for everyone!
They were not written only for the Yanks but for the Comms as well!
They must apply to everyone or they mean nothing! ''

James T Kirk

ST:TOS: The Omega Glory


Lol Klingon culture thrives quite nicely....lol We understand that with power comes grave responcibilty, and we're quite willing to use that power. We've exsisted as an Empire longer than you've exsisted as a political entity, and we Klingons will be around when you've been consigned to the ashes of antiquity.

In one instance you spoke of freedom. I submit that the Federation does not truely respect that ideal. You seem to think freedom is only for those who agree, or conform. Case in point. When a Klingon commits a crime he/she suffers a penaly, if convicted...for the most horrific crimes it's death. You feds prefer to..reeducate people, and the manner of reform is often a form of reprogramning i.e. to brainwash them and recreate them, thus destroying the person as they exsisted before. It is a terrible crime to forcably make anyone conform, or to become lawbiding. This strips the persons right to be as they are. Of course violent crininal should be put to death, this is "not" a dishonor to them, simply a consequence of their negative actions. The fed way is not different from what the Borg do. They seek to change those into what they are without regard to personal rights or freedoms. To put a criminal to death is to respect the choices they made, to respect that while they did wrong, that they had the right to choose. With the right to choose comes responcibilty and accountibility, and consequences must follow.

For my part, the Federation in that instance commits grave crimes against all sentiant beings. We Klingons support sentiant beings right to live, die, and be as they are. If we seek to introduce a new way for them...well then they have the right to refuse and to challenge our views. We never ever told a potential new member society that we would not allow resistance to our plans. In fact we encourage it!

Freedom comes at great cost, and must ever be paid. it is not given, nor can it be a gift. It must be earned! Those who say never war, only peace, will fail, and become slaves to those who impose their will. Only by being strong enough to resist intrusion can you remain free, and we Klingons are strong.

Once again, this Kobiashi Maru Scenario was solved by the Empire. We unlike you do not fear using our resources to help others resolve their difficulties. Since you all seem to have such trouble making the simplest of choices, which even a Klingon child can make, we leave you with a standing offer to administrate Gov for you, so you do not have to be burdened with difficult choices.

Consider these words from an Ancient Earth Philosopher from Ancient Greece. Plato wrote " The consequence to a lack of interest in public affiars is to be ruled by evil men" I agree and say "Take heed, and pay close attention to all public affairs... " Now these are also my thoughts " A military is simply a political and economic extension of the Society it serves, thus a public affair. To drone on and on about ever tiny detail, thus using this as a way to bury ones head in the sand only invites someone to come and chop it off. I'm not sayng anyone should do such a thing. I only say that there are grave...emphasis on "grave" consequences."

We Klingons are different form you. Our culture is far older than yours, who are you to say our ways are flawed...hmmm....The evidence clearly supports we have a point. We've lasted, and will continue to not only thrive, but to grow as well!

Hmmm....as for your saving us from extinction...lol I think not....lol Your Starfleet rebelled against you, and worked through it's warmongering to assisinate our Chancellor. Granted there were Klingons working with them, yet you are far from a paragon of virtue....lol We Klingons are honest about what we are, and do.

[PeTong]

If they do not wish to join the federation then ignore the problem, prime directive etc etc.

If they wish to join the federation however, offer them a compromise.

I'm sure they'll have religious criminals that do not deserve the basic rights that a normal citizen will need. We give the knowledge to them and they perform the required work on the infidels (or whatever they call them). problem solved (hopefully).

[steve34]

As sad as it would be, it is not the Federation's duty to impose their moral beliefs on another society. I would recommend to the Federation and request of the Savii council that the culture be studied and monitored closely so that their legacy and existence will not be forgotten.

[Kheren]

Klingon culture thrives quite nicely....lol We understand that with power comes grave responcibilty, and we're quite willing to use that power. We've exsisted as an Empire longer than you've exsisted as a political entity, and we Klingons will be around when you've been consigned to the ashes of antiquity.

Says the Empire that could have fallen at least twice without our help.

In one instance you spoke of freedom. I submit that the Federation does not truely respect that ideal. You seem to think freedom is only for those who agree, or conform.

So says an Empire that has only one race to deal with... or conquering, crushing and destroying all others maybe?

Case in point. When a Klingon commits a crime he/she suffers a penaly, if convicted...for the most horrific crimes it's death. You feds prefer to..reeducate people, and the manner of reform is often a form of reprogramning i.e. to brainwash them and recreate them, thus destroying the person as they exsisted before. It is a terrible crime to forcably make anyone conform, or to become lawbiding. This strips the persons right to be as they are.

Says a conquering Empire. You should stop listening to your own propaganda. Nobody is forced to join the Federation, even if we agree to help them. We do not conquer (impose ourselves) to anybody... case in point, General order 1.

Of course violent crininal should be put to death, this is "not" a dishonor to them, simply a consequence of their negative actions. The fed way is not different from what the Borg do. They seek to change those into what they are without regard to personal rights or freedoms. To put a criminal to death is to respect the choices they made, to respect that while they did wrong, that they had the right to choose. With the right to choose comes responcibilty and accountibility, and consequences must follow.

So, the Klingon Empire ''respects'' and ''honors'' crimninality... interesting. In other words: the only crime is to get caught... Indeed the Federation does not define morality in those terms.

Please get your facts straight; we do not turn any culture or individual into Terrans, Andorians, Vulcans... or Klingons. We add their distinctiveness to our own, not by assimilating them at all, but by sharing their uniqueness with all of us and sharing all of our own with them. This is the IDIC philosophy of the Federation brought to us by Vulcans: Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. That is the essence of the Federation. Under the Articles of the Federation, their individual rights, their cultural integrity and their territorial sovereignty is inviolable.... because we do not conquer; we do not annex their territory; we do not impose our laws; we do not make them Terran... or Klingon; we never forces anything on anyone. case in point: general order one: the Prime Directive. Please do read it.


For my part, the Federation in that instance commits grave crimes against all sentiant beings. We Klingons support sentiant beings right to live, die, and be as they are. If we seek to introduce a new way for them...well then they have the right to refuse and to challenge our views. We never ever told a potential new member society that we would not allow resistance to our plans. In fact we encourage it!

It is a good thing to see the Klingon Empire now trying to by the Prime Directive. There is hope for you yet.

Freedom comes at great cost, and must ever be paid. it is not given, nor can it be a gift. It must be earned! Those who say never war, only peace, will fail,

Violence is the last argument of the imbecile.

and become slaves to those who impose their will. Only by being strong enough to resist intrusion can you remain free, and we Klingons are strong.

Spoken like a true conquering warlike Empire... that at one time was torn by a civil war and about to be conquered by the Romulans, thanks to one of their highest noble houses sitting on the High Council... and this thanks to a lie to cover dishonorable men in power. Fortunately, The Federation discovered and thwarted the plot... without a shot being fired.

It takes much more strenght to lift a flower against a sword than just another sword.

Once again, this Kobiashi Maru Scenario was solved by the Empire. We unlike you do not fear using our resources to help others resolve their difficulties. Since you all seem to have such trouble making the simplest of choices, which even a Klingon child can make, we leave you with a standing offer to administrate Gov for you, so you do not have to be burdened with difficult choices.

A childish answer is always easier, yes. But fortunately for you and all others, including ourselves, the Federation is not run by children

Consider these words from an Ancient Earth Philosopher from Ancient Greece. Plato wrote " The consequence to a lack of interest in public affiars is to be ruled by evil men" I agree and say "Take heed, and pay close attention to all public affairs... " Now these are also my thoughts " A military is simply a political and economic extension of the Society it serves, thus a public affair. To drone on and on about ever tiny detail, thus using this as a way to bury ones head in the sand only invites someone to come and chop it off. I'm not sayng anyone should do such a thing. I only say that there are grave...emphasis on "grave" consequences."

Agreed... ponder this Human wisdom carefully... from a culture that rose from the ashes of a conquering empire into the creation of democracy, the will of the people, the right to be oneself within the all: the founding principle of the Federation and of it's Prime Directive. Your Life as your Death are yours and yours alone, regardless of what we... or the conquering (we impose ourselves) Klingons... think.

We Klingons are different form you. Our culture is far older than yours, who are you to say our ways are flawed...hmmm....The evidence clearly supports we have a point. We've lasted, and will continue to not only thrive, but to grow as well!

Your ways are not flawed: they're yours. Just as for the Savii. That is what we recognize with our Prime Directive... We recognize that freedom to all... even for you , you the conquering culture, who vows to impose your way to others... and call this ''honor and glory for the Empire''.

Hmmm....as for your saving us from extinction...lol I think not....lol Your Starfleet rebelled against you, and worked through it's warmongering to assisinate our Chancellor. Granted there were Klingons working with them, yet you are far from a paragon of virtue....lol We Klingons are honest about what we are, and do.

Federation military trying to topple an enemy... that was so wrong of course; but Klingons assassinating their own ruler... and not for the only time (remember Kempec?) that says so much about Klingon honesty and virtue... and Klingon Honor.

We know about our failings... that is the consequence of allowing freedom to individuals, wich includes the right to dissent. We accept it, we deal with it... and as peacefully as we can, as we strive to attain virtue, not deluding ouselves that our ''empire'' already achieved it through destruction and death

[KlinZha]

I did get your arguement straight.....I did not say the federation assimulates other cultures as the Borg. I was refering to those people in your culture who are criminals who are forced to become what they are not....I say again it is a terrible thing to alter anothers mind ( That's Borglike )to be what you choose it to be through reprograming as if a Sentiant were a computer.

Hmm... Apparently you do not read well....here allow me to pass you a magnifying glass...does this help?
We do not respect crime or criminal behavior. We "do" respect the right of people to choose. It is choice we respect. A criminal in our Empire is dealt with harshly as should be done. We do not attempt to reprogram people to think, and act as we do. If people choose to act dishonorbaly and/or unlawfully we respect their right to act dishonorably and/or unlawfully, then they are given the consequences. Unlike you we do not reprogram them as if sentiants are a computer.

Much of your arguement centers around our warlike nature....we are Warlike, we're conqueors. This is news to you? Our civil wars are more along the lines of Wargames....lol We do like to practice the Art of War, and if an enemy is lacking we do like to keep our skills well honed...lol No one can accuse us Klingons of allowing ourselves to become soft.


yes i do consider your Ancient Philosophers words..lol As I recall It was I who introduced them to you..lol


As far as the Savii. well the klingon Empire has adminstered the solution. While you debated crying on eachothers shoulders boo hoo this..sniffle sniffle....boo hoo that....sob sob.....we steped up and made it clear to them we'll aid them in anyway we can...if some want a cure it would be administered to them on our ships so as they won't effect those wishing to die. If they all wish to die....we'll aid their passing, if they desire. We invited their scientists, intellectuals, and teachers to share their culture with us, so that something of themselves can be remembered, this obviously has the benifit of gaining us a system for exploitation, and potential tech to aid us in our war efforts....Meaningless rambling is worhtless...decissively effective action, priceless!


Hey, if there are other cultures we meet that Klingons decide to conqure,well, they'll have their chance to fight. If they win they are free. If they lose they are not. This is the natural order of the Verse...lol If you've no concept of natural selection...well perhaps you should go back to the basics....lol Those we conqure are fought with honor and given the respect a warrior is due! freedom is never cheap. We Klingons are free becuase we have the strength to keep our freedom to be as we are..lol

Only time can say which of our cultures is better. Only when we cross swords shall we ever know.

[Kheren]

I did get your arguement straight.....I did not say the federation assimulates other cultures as the Borg. I was refering to those people in your culture who are criminals who are forced to become what they are not....I say again it is a terrible thing to alter anothers mind ( That's Borglike )to be what you choose it to be through reprograming as if a Sentiant were a computer.

Again, please stop beleiving your own propaganda. We do not reprogram; we do not even force rehabilitation. it is a purely voluntary process offered to anyone who wants to return positively into the community as a citizen as soon as possible. Those who do not want it just do their sentenced time in prison until their sentence is over.

Hmm... Apparently you do not read well....here allow me to pass you a magnifying glass...does this help?
We do not respect crime or criminal behavior. We "do" respect the right of people to choose. It is choice we respect. A criminal in our Empire is dealt with harshly as should be done. We do not attempt to reprogram people to think, and act as we do. If people choose to act dishonorbaly and/or unlawfully we respect their right to act dishonorably and/or unlawfully, then they are given the consequences. Unlike you we do not reprogram them as if sentiants are a computer.

Neither do we; you do : we did not invent nor used the mind sifter: you did. Your most revered Dahan master Kor used it on commander Spock and threatened to use it on captain Kirk because he did not ''cooperate'' with your imposed military occupation of Organia. No need for a magnifying glass for us: however, what you need is a mirror. See the real thing now? Glad to be of help.

Killing criminals had been done for centuries on Earth in the past... and proved to be totally inefficient against criminal behavior. And ''a life for a life'' and other such immoral vengeful inefficiency is now well behind us. Hopefully, your society will evolve beyond it too one day... but that is your choice for your lives. As for us, in all things, we choose life.

Much of your arguement centers around our warlike nature....we are Warlike, we're conqueors. This is news to you? Our civil wars are more along the lines of Wargames....lol We do like to practice the Art of War, and if an enemy is lacking we do like to keep our skills well honed...lol No one can accuse us Klingons of allowing ourselves to become soft.

As you can see, we understand you quite well... because we were like you, once... so were the Vulcans and the Andorians... We do recognize Klingon strength and courage. One day, maybe, you may truly open your eyes and understand us too.

yes i do consider your Ancient Philosophers words..lol As I recall It was I who introduced them to you..lol

So, you presume to know what I know and don't know and to... educate me? Interesting... especially after all that you said about... reeducation...

As far as the Savii. well the klingon Empire has adminstered the solution. While you debated crying on eachothers shoulders boo hoo this..sniffle sniffle....boo hoo that....sob sob.....we steped up and made it clear to them we'll aid them in anyway we can...if some want a cure it would be administered to them on our ships so as they won't effect those wishing to die. If they all wish to die....we'll aid their passing, if they desire. We invited their scientists, intellectuals, and teachers to share their culture with us, so that something of themselves can be remembered, this obviously has the benifit of gaining us a system for exploitation, and potential tech to aid us in our war efforts....Meaningless rambling is worhtless...decissively effective action, priceless!

What indecision? We offered, they refused, as is their right. And obviously, just as with us, you didn't take the time to listen and understand the Savii. They are a hive mind: this means no individuality. There can not be an ''individual request'' because there are no individuals. And forcibly extracting a unit out of it is akin to dismemberment. We do not dismember other cultures or individuals; we respect their integrity.

And they are not dead yet. So we will strive to find another cure more acceptable to them, hopefully finding it in time. We always have hope, because we choose life and freedom for all

Hey, if there are other cultures we meet that Klingons decide to conqure,well, they'll have their chance to fight. If they win they are free. If they lose they are not. This is the natural order of the Verse...lol If you've no concept of natural selection...well perhaps you should go back to the basics....lol Those we conqure are fought with honor and given the respect a warrior is due! freedom is never cheap. We Klingons are free becuase we have the strength to keep our freedom to be as we are..lol

Natural selection is the way for animals to survive... Sentient beings learn to go beyond the basic limitations of nature to strive for better, for the benefit of all.

Only time can say which of our cultures is better. Only when we cross swords shall we ever know.[/QUOTE]

Being better than the other has no meaning except for competing animals over the ressources of a small territory. But the universe (not counting all the other universes) is big enough and rich enough for sentient beings to accept one another as they are and share the best of each other for the benefit and growth of each other... like strength and wisdom... like the strength of Klingons and the wisdom of the Federation.

And why do you wait, debate and delay for it?

[Lyzra]

Regardless of starfleet protocol, as far I understand the norm would be to avoid doing actions that interfere with the particular cultures 'advancement' on how ever you wish to envision that.
Protocol stands and meddling with the races matters without clearance or agreement is strictly not initiated.

I would leave my science vessel on low orbit and start documenting culture, resources biological data from the planet itself. Starfleet isnt best known for a patient observation and very through assessment of most situations of this kind, its too often contaminated with empathy or other completely contradictory wishes and running off to solve a next 'problem'.

As preliminary data suggests is that they are a culture with pre-warp technology to one that actually accomplishes spacetraveling on its own, they certainly exceed by default human culture in many folds in the same stage of developement.
While focusing on gathering information in the case the race really will die by itself, the biological ecosphere and how the insect race lives must give some clues why the race is suffering. Maybe with patient observation and trying to trace down the planets faunas different relations it could be bringing forth another alternative to suggest them to try out and allow them the possibility to thrive and continue they own path without external crutches. Races that are unable to survive should die, weak should be culled and thats just a normal process of 'progress' or mere survival.

If an alternative will not be found, at least the databanks are storing hopefully alot of culture of a dead race for scientists and there is one more planet open for terraforming/inhabitation of a another more able race.

[A.AQ]

Prime Directive !

The cure for the Saviis' hereditary illness is against their religion and offensive to them. Unless you can find another solution that they wont object to you must let nature take its course.

[ethanADAMS]

KB # 19

I did not read any of the threads back so if we have a repeat pardon me.

Firstly this calls for extreme logic and communication skills, which would be a Vulcan. A Vulcan with outstanding Diplomatic experience and foritude. The only Vulcan that comes to mind is, Ambassador Sovall of the Kolinahr Fleet, who by chance is Chief Science Officer. Sending a "high priority" and "secure" message to Fleet Admiral Khur explaining our situation and if possible have Ambassdor Sovall rendezvous with us and attempt to reason with the Savii.

Truly, in my opinion, there is not much more we could do.

eA

[KlinZha]

kheren, obviously you've not read your own historical records regarding such reprogramning, your lack of knowledge is not my problem, ignorance is not an acceptable defense. However once again we Klingons will teach you something....Listen well " there is no dishonor to not knowing a something, there is dishonor to not knowing when something should be known or once it's needed to be known...lol " ( out of Character: I refer to various Star trek novels, one of which was The Vulcan Academy murders, if I have the title correct. You may also benifit from reading the Final Relfection which explains Klingons quite nicely. My arguements and views stem from the various Star trek books . )

Ahh your reference to the mind sifter is a t best a mis representation, at worst a dishonorable lie. Yes we did invent it, yet we did not, nor do not as general policy use it to control others. It is used as an interegation techinique, when captured either tell your interegators what they wish to know, or expect mythods to be used to truthfully extract that information. While vulcans for example use a mind meld, we use technological means, further we did find an interesting educational technology as a result of the mind sifter, it's used to learn subject matter while you sleep, and makes learning quite efficient, nor is knowledge striped or stolen from anothers minds. Information is programned into the device which is then learned by the user at their leisure, while sleeping, thus no one is harmed, and much can be gained. Though it's used mostly to learn a language, such skiills relating to the Art of War, as example are best learned naturally, for experience is the best teacher which also requires the right aptitude, and instinict. Read about it in our historical documents, Titled the Final Reflection, which has been declassified long ago. As for interegation techniques I can think of crueler ways to extract intelligence info. If you feel that interegation techiniques are not used even by your federation you're niave. This Verse is unforgiving of niavity, incompetance, and sloth. natural selection will weed out those unfit to survive. Wake up and open your eyes, look closely at reality and don't live life as if it were a euphoric dreamland....if not you'll have a most rude awakening, for the deep is cold dark, and uncarring of what we want, it only cares about what is true....that truth is life is a struggle. Either measure up, or fade to insignificance unworthy of rememberance.

Actually you did not administer anything..lol you still debate, while the Empire has long dealt with this! Only I an other Klingons actually offered a cure, and we offered councling and options to them, and listened to what they wanted and worked with them, also they will be remembered, for we helped them to record their knowledge and cultural views with our scientists and educators. We will of course use what is useful to us, and store the rest where it can be kept safe. We were decisive, you were not, get over it.

Natural Selection is not only for animals...and actually we are all animals of a sort, or have you forgotten basic biology...sighs once again, a Klingon must instruct a fed. We really should charge you for these services, or do you feel.....the Verse owes you something..hmm.... It does not! Though we are Sentiant, and our intelligence allows Sentiants to rise above the rest of the animal kingdom, we are subject to natural selection. To ignor this is foolish, if a Society less tolerant, cultured, or simply vindictive wants to subjegate another, if that other has no defenses they've made themselves foolishly dependant upon non exsistant good will, and will die out. Never forget natural laws, and the way of this Verse! We Klingons are not vindictive, nor are we malicious. We act as nature's way of weeding out those who can't make it and hold back those who can and should thrive. We treat those we defeat with honor, and they do thrive in service of the Empire. If other cultures do not like this....well the solution is simple, grow up as a species and learn this lesson....freedom is paid for with constant struggle. Guard it well, or lose it! We are very good instructors of this lessen.


OU812, you seem to have a grasp of reality, and understand that such cultures just may have to suffer the consequences of their failing, or misguided nature.

ethanAdams, at least you advocated some form of action, though it's not required. The Klingon Empire has long since answered this situation, and who knows, perhaps some of their historians, academics, and scientists invited to the convention we held aboard our orbiting ships may become intrigued enough by us to choose to live. Either way this has been a win/ win scenario...a pity you feds would not think in the long term, now we're reaping the rewards. Thankyou Federation for your short sightedness, and for futhering the Empire! You've served us well with you......yawns......neverending actionless talk.

Lyzra, you would make a wonderful Klingon. You're ideas are on target, yet the Empire beat you to it. A shame really that your federation's indecisiveness held you back. If you ever care to try life as a Klingon we have a place for you. Even if only you wish to visit one of our worlds, perhaps we both can learn from echother. Hmm... Do you play a game called Terran Zha? Opps we call it Terran Zha, you know it as Chess. I could teach you to play Rom Zha ( Romulan equivalent), and/ or Klin Zha ( Klingon equivalent ), if you like.

In closing you'll find if you choose to read " The Final Reflection" that we Klingons did have a hand in helping your Federation to be born in a sense. While your ways do perplex us, we did recognize your right, if seemingly misguided by us, to be as you wish to be. What harm can there be to reading it...lol you'll not only understand us better, for we do understand you. Consider an old terran saying " know thy ememy, and know thyself" In matters of Galatic Affairs it's vital to understand an advesary, for therein lies the key to success. Ignorance only stimulates stagnation and defeat. Even conversation is a battle of sorts, its a battle ground of thoughts and ideas, and is very dependant upon wit, intelect, and a willingness to understand views which may be disagreable.

[trebort5050]

Posts here are getting to long :P

[Kheren]

(OOC: I read both books; since books are not canon, I did not refer to them. But I don't mind including them for the fun of the discussion :D)

kheren, obviously you've not read your own historical records regarding such reprogramning,

Those have been crimes... not policy.

" there is no dishonor to not knowing a something, there is dishonor to not knowing when something should be known or once it's needed to be known...lol "

The danger with History is to choose sources and interpretations that suit one's goals and disregard those that do not. Let us all be wary of that and not act like Gowron did.

Ahh your reference to the mind sifter is a t best a mis representation, at worst a dishonorable lie. Yes we did invent it, yet we did not, nor do not as general policy use it to control others.

Are you ready to give your word of Honor on this?

It is used as an interegation techinique,

Nice euphemism... like calling a weapon, an insrument of death and destruction: a ''tool''.

when captured either tell your interegators what they wish to know, or expect mythods to be used to truthfully extract that information. While vulcans for example use a mind meld, we use technological means, further we did find an interesting educational technology as a result of the mind sifter, it's used to learn subject matter while you sleep, and makes learning quite efficient, nor is knowledge striped or stolen from anothers minds.

That is a positive use we could approve... if the mind sifter did not ''extract information wich after a time will leave the subject drained, more vegetable than Human'' (words of Kor to Kirk). The Vulcan mind meld is a deep, personal sharing of thoughts, not extracting. Vulcan ethics thousands of years old forbid any such violation.

. As for interegation techniques I can think of crueler ways to extract intelligence info.

Like maybe... extracting part of a hive mind, isolate it, impose your view on it and it's collectivity?

If you feel that interegation techniques are not used even by your federation you're niave.

There are many kinds of interrogation techniques, not just violent or invasiveones. Even Humans on Earth found out centuries ago that those were totally inefficient in getting reliable information. If you think we use such primitive methods, you are sadly blinded by your own propaganda and narrow vision.

This Verse is unforgiving of niavity, incompetance, and sloth. natural selection will weed out those unfit to survive. Wake up and open your eyes, look closely at reality and don't live life as if it were a euphoric dreamland....if not you'll have a most rude awakening, for the deep is cold dark, and uncarring of what we want, it only cares about what is true....that truth is life is a struggle. Either measure up, or fade to insignificance unworthy of rememberance.

How sad to see you still struggle with survival in base competition... We already solved that problem; maybe we could be of assistance?

Actually you did not administer anything..lol you still debate, while the Empire has long dealt with this! Only I an other Klingons actually offered a cure, and we offered councling and options to them, and listened to what they wanted and worked with them, also they will be remembered, for we helped them to record their knowledge and cultural views with our scientists and educators. We will of course use what is useful to us, and store the rest where it can be kept safe. We were decisive, you were not, get over it.

The only one debating is you my friend. We have found the cure, offered it, respected their wishes. Many are recording and attempting to find another cure without trampling on their wishes and their rights like you do, without any intent to exploit them as you do.

As would say the Capellans ''you talk with eyes closed and fingers in your ears.'' No wonder the Romulans can trick you so easily.

Natural Selection is not only for animals...and actually we are all animals of a sort, or have you forgotten basic biology (...) Though we are Sentiant, and our intelligence allows Sentiants to rise above the rest of the animal kingdom, we are subject to natural selection.

How sad to see you still struggle with survival in base competition... We solved that problem centuries ago... started millenias before with civilization: the Logic of Vulcans, the discipline of Andorians, the compassion of Humanity... and we are willing to share it all with all who wants it... even you, if you wish.

To ignor this is foolish, if a Society less tolerant, cultured, or simply vindictive wants to subjegate another, if that other has no defenses they've made themselves foolishly dependant upon non exsistant good will, and will die out.

Thus, the Prime Directive: to solve this problem... for others as well as for us. Are you still afraid, or guilty of it?

Never forget natural laws, and the way of this Verse! We Klingons are not vindictive, nor are we malicious. We act as nature's way of weeding out those who can't make it and hold back those who can and should thrive. We treat those we defeat with honor, and they do thrive in service of the Empire. If other cultures do not like this....well the solution is simple, grow up as a species and learn this lesson....freedom is paid for with constant struggle. Guard it well, or lose it! We are very good instructors of this lessen.

Your choice. We chose to rise above it. It was a very long and difficult process, but it brought about the Federation. We have chosen to share this universe with all forms of life... even those who foolishly think they need to take it all for themselves alone.

OU812, you seem to have a grasp of reality, and understand that such cultures just may have to suffer the consequences of their failing, or misguided nature.

Failing, Misguided... judgment of your part, not objective reality. But yes it is to them, their right, to assume their choices. That is the Prime Directive.

ethanAdams, at least you advocated some form of action, though it's not required. The Klingon Empire has long since answered this situation, and who knows, perhaps some of their historians, academics, and scientists invited to the convention we held aboard our orbiting ships may become intrigued enough by us to choose to live.

Blind and deaf... hopefully that's all it is.

Read carefully: HIVE MIND.

There is no ''some of their'' this or that. There is no concept or reality of individuality within this people.. Your plan fails from the start if your pretense at ''helping'' this people is even half true. How can you help them if you do not even understand what they are?.

Unless, conquest is your goal behind a facade of benevolence? Guilty conscience? Afraid of stating what you are and what you want? Observe that we are not.

We understand you better than you would like us too... and much better than you undestand the Savii... or even us

Either way this has been a win/ win scenario...a pity you feds would not think in the long term, now we're reaping the rewards. Thankyou Federation for your short sightedness, and for futhering the Empire! You've served us well with you......yawns......neverending actionless talk.

In view of your upcoming agression, your delusion is reassuring.

But... win, rewards, furthering the Empire...how selfishly limited. You dance around the truth : those words alone show you do not care about the Savii, just about yourself.

We grieve for you, the poor choice you made for yourself : you will never win it all, you will never have it all, thus, you will forever be in pain. How sad.

Lyzra, you would make a wonderful Klingon. You're ideas are on target, yet the Empire beat you to it.

Sorry my so deluded friend: the Federation beat you to it... when the Prime Directive was implemented 300 years ago!

A shame really that your federation's indecisiveness held you back. If you ever care to try life as a Klingon we have a place for you. Even if only you wish to visit one of our worlds, perhaps we both can learn from echother.

Sharing; now there is hope for you still my friend!

In closing you'll find if you choose to read " The Final Reflection" that we Klingons did have a hand in helping your Federation to be born in a sense.

This is like saying the dolphin owes it's intelligence to the shark's teeth. But, yes, in a primitive sense.

We do recognize what the Klingons bring to the tapestry of the universe, like all sentient beings. That is why their rights, your rights, to be what they are, what you are, are sacred. Thus, our Prime Directive: One day, you will understand... but that also is for you to choose to do so

While your ways do perplex us, we did recognize your right, if seemingly misguided by us, to be as you wish to be.

Then you turn around and try again and again to conquer and submit us under your rule.Your mastering of sophistry is a wonder to behold... or is it delusion again?

What harm can there be to reading it...lol

Done my friend, decades ago... and many times afterwards. A wondrous Klingon tale. true or not, it teaches us the validity of our vision: IDIC... wich again is expressed by the Prime Directive. While you Klingons pondered what to do, our decision was made centuries before we even met the Savii:

you'll not only understand us better, for we do understand you. Consider an old terran saying " know thy ememy, and know thyself" In matters of Galatic Affairs it's vital to understand an advesary, for therein lies the key to success.

An old saying of Sun Tzu. We have a more recent one, from Uyeshiba Morihei founder of Aikido: ''our way is not to defeat an enemy, but to be without an enemy.''

Ignorance only stimulates stagnation and defeat. Even conversation is a battle of sorts, its a battle ground of thoughts and ideas, and is very dependant upon wit, intelect, and a willingness to understand views which may be disagreable.

On this, we do agree with one another. And it has been a most stinulating exchange, Klingon friend... or should I say more appropriately for your way of thinking: honorable adversary.

[trebort5050]

Sooooo much to read. I have to book a day off work to read your posts!

[Kheren]

Sooooo much to read. I have to book a day off work to read your posts!

I had to book a day off work too just to write it LOL

[trebort5050]

lol :p

I'd rather waste my life on STO forums than work anyway :D

[yardbird]

I'd rather waste my life on STO forums than work anyway :D

Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted.

[Kheren]

Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted.

I totally agree.

[trebort5050]

That's good for me then :rolleyes:

[KlinZha]

Kheren,you disappoint me, truely you do...sighs. I had expected intelligent dialog from you, not this mindless dribble you use to reply to our posts. I had hoped you would use the time you took off your work to form a logical, well thought arguement to support your cause. I actually had been looking forward to see what you would come up with. You've offered nothing tangible, no original thought or expression that'll edify our discussion. Anyone here, if they are willing can read my posts: How I have expressed my thoughts, how I explained concisely the Empire's actions and reasoning. You have "not" contributed in any meaningful way to this debate we've been having. Granted your use of a soundbite techique while interesting, has not brought substance to your arguement. In fact you've been ...lol rather reactionary. rather than act, you've been consistantly reacting to me. You've not posted anything of true value here. A shame really. I expect better from a Fed envoy. By contrast you do seem to support my views from your lack of substantive contribution. You may not see this, which is truely a pity. Your techique is something a journalist would at times use, which is valid in limited circumstances, yet your execution has been lack luster. I'm sure you can do much much better..maybe you need to take a week and offer something later that has substance? I'm not trying to be condesending here, yet you've disappointed me.

You did say something of interest which was " your way is not to defeat an enemy, but to not have an enemy". Again you show a lack of realism. There are times when an enemy must be defeated. Some beings such as the Borg are "not" placated, will not stop until met with an equal opposing force. Equal force does not have to be same force for force. gravity can stop an upward momentum from it's constant force, though it's not at 1st as powerful as the force which propelled an object to motion, such as baseball hit by a bat....the ball will come down. That natural law offers a solution.....fight, use force....to do nothing and say ..."let's debate them", will only result in your assimulation as your move your lips. War is not always the answer, yet there are times when it's the appropriate responce. You also forget while we are Warriors, we are cultured, for barbarians can never truely rule an Empire that lasts. We understand diplomacy, for the Art of Diplomacy is a form of Warfare, the Battlefield then is within hearts and minds, and the words weighed and measured to support a well reasoned, and/or idea or thought in support of a view. In short it's a verbal struggle between thinking opponents.

Your Prime Directive has some value perhaps...it's a different appoach to ours. Is it better, hmmm... none can truely say. it's simply different. Different is not nescessarily bad it's just different. Though I can see harm from it. Your prime directive does not allow you to save cultures which may be saved. It gives an avenue of approach to those who can and will act decissively. As for the Savii....we understand Hive Minds. Not all Hive minds are as they, yet if you actually bothered to read my prior posts rather than simply react mindlessly and reply without reading, you'll find that we held a convention aboard our ships with many of their people. We discussed their situation, we actually "listened", then we offered possible solutions. We respected their ways. Finally a consensus was reached. We would aid them best by recording their knowledge, history, beliefs, philosophies, and preserve the knowledge of who and what they are...in exchange we've gained a system, resources, tech, and a great geal of knowledge. They reinforce our view that only the strong survive natural selection, for they do not have either the will, or perhaps the genes to survive. Though abit confused, we respect their choice. You do not like the verses natural order of things....well that does not change what is a universal truth. Closing your eyes will not make what you now can't see by willfullness go away. Hmm...I'm sure you see natural selection all the time...either from people playing sports, the best win, or from people taking a test for a particular field at a Universtity. Not everyone can become a Physician, so criteria are set to determine who has what it takes i.e. knowledge, test scores, ect...only those worthy move on to greater things. Entrance into your Star fleet is based on competition which adheres to natural selection.

By the Way, Volcans have been known to forcefully use a mindmeld when the situation deemed it necesaary to them. Just becuase you do not like a thing does not mean one should ignor it. We do not have the power of the Volcan Mindmeld, so we used our intellect to create a device that'll work. lol I find it halarious that you don't mind a mystical mindmeld, yet detest a technological equivalent, that due to advances is not nealyso dangerous to the one interorgated. Hmm.. an example of a double standard I guess.

Now we come to your past statement of Kor and the Organians. You might want to see that episode again. Watch carefully, because when the Organians confronted both at the end, Kor gave the most logical and well thought responces. By contrast Kirk came off as a mindless fanatic. Kor gave legitamate arguements eloquently stating the Empire's case, that the Federation's attempt to restrict Klingon exploration, interfearance with our trade, willful involvement in our Sovereign Affairs, while all Kirk could do was....literally mindlessly bluster..by saying.." but, they're Klingons!" over and over. He offered nothing rational except for mindless hate. As for what Kor did to maintain Order there....well while none were harmed due to their immortal nature, that situation would not have occured had the Enterpise crew " not" have instigated unlawful and terrorist acts. Watch the episode. Just because we ruled there, and you disagree does not give you the right to instigate and ferment rebellion in our space,unless natural selection is advocated, as most likely why the Feds interfeared by trying to weaken our possition there, further the Enterprise was in direct violation of Organian will. That situation while a draw did show most clearly how the federation violated their rights most grossly. Hmm... here are glasses, so you may see better, and here is a hearing aid, so you may hear better as you watch again. Also your posts remind me of that Kirk in a way. I say this due to what I said earlier above. I'm quite disapointed in your lack of meaningful contribution which makes discussion with you borring. Sad thing is you'll probably bluster in your fashion, and will most likely not offer anythng of value.

[Kheren]

''Sigh'' so disappointing. What a shame... :(

[noonian]

''Sigh'' so disappointing. What a shame... :(

Clapclapclapclapclapclapclpa...

In that great wall of text that even the Chinese would be jealous of...

Klin Zha was challenging...goading you into bringing your "A" game...

Instead you never show up...well done!

[Kheren]

'' Only a fool fights in burning house ''
Kang

[happyoutkast]

this shouldn't even be a question for starfleet, the prime directive defines exactly what to do: absolutely nothing unless they ask for our help. If they don't want it, well then I'm sure the next species to evolve on the planet will appreciate the fossil fuels they leave behind.....

[happyoutkast]

oh, and kids, enough of the freakin' flame war, its a scenario that you have to put yourself in to and write what you would do, not a damn debate on who's better: klingon or federation (and it's federation by the way, klingons need to be kept on a SHORT leash like dogs).

[NX_70982]

Freedom to practice your religious beliefs is the right to every specie, however, there is a way to uphold their deep spiritual rights and save them at the same time though it would require rigorous diplomacy:

Tweaking the genetics of a race is a big thing, and for a spiritual race like the Savii, who have been offended by the fact that someone has even suggested that altering their genetic line is blasphemy, a keen diplomat will be able to convince the Savii that perhaps the reason for their developing warp-driven vessels is to find a savior that can cure their race, that it was not a coincidence that the Federation and Starfleet was there to meet them first.

[KlinZha]

happyoutkast, how eloquent you are...lol Well Actutally I did write a solution, and this flame war as you call it, began in responce to my solution. Perhaps, you Feds should lock yourselves in your rooms until you can learn to behave....hmm.... Obviously you need a time out....lol I've done nothing to you, nor have I dishonored you in any way. The Fact that I even bothered to engage in intelligent Dilplomatic dialog with you Feds was an honor to you, and that your best use of Diplomacy is the beligerance of a Tellerite...whoa let the Verse see how far you've come indeed...lol! Clearly the Federation is a kennel filled with snivleing muts needing to be trained...lol You may argue Boo..hoo...sniffle sniffle....whine... whine..., you Klingons just verbally sent us to our rooms. The answer is simple, one does not reward disrespect and/or dishonor.

[mianandre]

This scenario is full of positive possibilities for the Federation. First off, the UFP has the responsibility to itself to upkeep its own ethical integrity and stick to its top laws, namely the Prime Directive. However, this does not void the need for the helping hand of the Federation to offer its' assistance. If the Savii decide to, or not, accept the aid is up to them and should be respected.

If they accept, we have a new member, or an ally, at worse case. In a universe gunning for the Federation, we need all the allies we can get.

If they do not accept, the Federation will soon have a new planet to colonize. Win, win. :cool:

[KlinZha]

This scenario is full of positive possibilities for the Federation. First off, the UFP has the responsibility to itself to upkeep its own ethical integrity and stick to its top laws, namely the Prime Directive. However, this does not void the need for the helping hand of the Federation to offer its' assistance. If the Savii decide to, or not, accept the aid is up to them and should be respected.

If they accept, we have a new member, or an ally, at worse case. In a universe gunning for the Federation, we need all the allies we can get.

If they do not accept, the Federation will soon have a new planet to colonize. Win, win. :cool:


If you've read my prior posts you'll find cause to rejoice! For the Empire has already invited their scholoars, scientists, and great thinkers to a convention we hosted on our ships. Where they were give councling on this matter, and options were discussed. For the Empire the result is win/ win, the sceanio was solved by the Empire. I fear after the eloquent beligerance of your Federation's latest Envoy ( happyoutcast ) that you'll not find a welcome in the Savii System...lol

[Kheren]

Happyyoutkast, Miannandre and all the others, do not bother with Klingon chest beating.

Read this, the very first communique of Federation Officer Alaric:

use genetic engineering to add elements of the Savii genome, specifically those relating to the hereditary illness, as well as those relating to pheromone production, into native plants, then perform the required genetic tweeks on the plants, and see if they can spread the cure via the pheremone network.


This completely respects both their religious belief (no alteration of their genome) and the Prime Directive (this solution is therefore perfectly acceptable to them and they welcome it).

Introducing a retrovirus within the flora rapidly spreaded the cure to the whole species through their own environement and forever cured them of this affliction. Moreover, it showed them a whole new path of advanced medecine for their race without compromising their Faith.

In gratitude for our help and for our respect of them as a culture and a sentient race, the Savii eagerly joins the United Federation of Planets. They now rejoice at being part of a whole where they truly can be themselves and we to welcome yet another form of sentience to enrich our wisdom of the universe.

Problem solved on page 4, post 35 (June 26). Poor delusional Klingon got out of bed on page 15, post 147 (June 28) reading old, stale news of theoretical officer debates on the subject and, not yet fully awake, started dreaming of conquest through deceit and oppression of a race already part of the Federation.

A commendation and a promotion are to be awarded to Officer Alaric for upholding the Federation values and Starfleet policy while saving an entire race from extinction.

[yardbird]

Read this, the very first communique of Federation Officer Alaric:

use genetic engineering to add elements of the Savii genome, specifically those relating to the hereditary illness, as well as those relating to pheromone production, into native plants, then perform the required genetic tweeks on the plants, and see if they can spread the cure via the pheremone network.


This completely respects both their religious belief (no alteration of their genome) and the Prime Directive (this solution is therefore perfectly acceptable to them and they welcome it).

Introducing a retrovirus within the flora rapidly spreaded the cure to the whole species through their own environement and forever cured them of this affliction. Moreover, it showed them a whole new path of advanced medecine for their race without compromising their Faith.

I agree this is an acceptable solution IF the Savii's ethical objections to genetic manipulation only refer to themselves and do not include aspects of their world and environment. They may have religious objections to the very practice of the science. The original transmition is ambigious on this count.

[KlinZha]

Embassador Kheren, have you bothered to actually ask them? Rather than presume to be the Lord's of their fate...hmmm....unlike you we Klingons did not presume anything..we took great pains to 1st listen, then to colaborate with them in addresing their concerns. Also you basically ignored them while debating this amounst yourselves, thus your inaction spurred us to aid them. Further we Klingons have amalgamated them to the Empire. After the exquisitely irrational arguements presented by the fed Envoy "happyoutcast", the Savii saw the light of reason. You had your chance...sighs, pitty your debates still lack concensus, for even now the federation Councel bicker amounst themselves for a resolution......I've said before meaningless rambling is worthless, and decissive action is priceless. I do look forward to meeting you again, perhaps in another time and place you'll conclude a Diplomatic Coup. Til then, go with Honor, and may the stars ever remember your exploits.

* Klin Zha ponders thoughtfully, and gestures to Embassador Kheren* Saying " Hmmm..before we move on to our next Diplomatic missions, would you like a drink of scotch I've secured from Earth? I'm told it's well aged".

[Kheren]

Well met, Warrior. It takes courage to face your own delusions. A courage I know you have and will show in time.

In the words of the Human wise man called Lao Tzu:

He who defeats others is strong
He who defeats himself is Great.

Alas, alcohol do not sit well with Andorian physiology. And a drunk Andorian would too easily join your views and forget his strict discipline, the only thing keeping in check his warrior instincts to be worthy of the high ideals of the Federation.

But as a token gesture of respect for your valor, I will accept one small sip... and offer you this bottle of Bloodwine given to me by Ambassador Worf when I graduated with high honors in tactical from Starfleet Academy.

May all the Heroes in Sto Vo Kor already celebrate your Honor well before you meet them.

(OOC: Oh and by the way; HAPPY INDEPENDANCE DAY to you and all our American friends on this thread and yours!)

[KlinZha]

I can see you think your mind lives in Ancient Egyptian Kingdom of De'nile. I commend you're blindness to reality, and deafness to what's plainly heard by all. Yes, it'll take all your courage to disillusion yourself from your delusions....perhaps, the stress has gotten to you. There, there, try this nice hot cup of green tea, I'm told it's quite soothing....* KlinZha, gently assists Ambassador Kheren to sit, and soothingly asks his aid Mok'Tar' Koh to call for a councelor, preferably a Betazed * KlinZha softly says.."it's okay my Honored Friend, stress can happen to anyone, and can play tricks on the mind. Hmm.... I know....I have these visuals of ice hockey games...nudge nudge wink wink that you may enjoy. * Klin Zha searches a small pile of holo disc, aha He says " here's the right one, this was a game played long ago between 2 great Earth Empires. One called Amerika, I think, the other Russa or is it.. Rusha? No matter, the Warriors vied for dominance in an arena called Olypic, is it Kheren? Until then the data disc states that the Ruska Warriors were undefeated, having well experienced fihgters of the puck, and the Amerikas had teenagers, while inexperianced had the hunger, drive, and the will from the skills they applied to suceed, as natural selection dictated. *Suddenly KlinZha's eye widen as if in revelation: I see Kheren what has unballenced you, and he continues with a quiet menace in his voice, growling the following as the words left a vile taste....it's terrible, unforgivable even what this Pet'ah Ambassador happyoutcast has done, for by stabbing you in the back, he handed us the moral imperative allowing the Empire to prevail here. Oh, this comentator Kosell truely has a warrior spirit........this battle'll be joyous to see!

* Note to everyone in RL* I wish you all and your families a wonderful 4th of July. I implore you all to please be careful with, and use safely any fireworks you may use. I wish all of us to be here as respected and honored friends when STO is live.*

Glory to yourselves and your Fleets!

[zap4231]

short answer - i would save them

[Trevors30]

There has to be at least a group of inhabitants that are willing to undergo the treatment. The problem says that all that would have to be genetically manipulated was a group of inhabitants and it would spread to the rest of the population, so do the manipulations to the ones you can help, and don't let the masses know that you have done it. It will trickle to the deeply religious, and they will never know. In the meantime, offer whatever support the masses want and gain their trust by "being there" for them.

[KlinZha]

Trevors, your proposed Federation solution seems dishonorable to me, and I think such dishonesty will taint you. If your intent is to violate their rights, and do what you want to them in the name of a greater good, would it not be best to be upfront about it, and simply conquer them? If you're to do such a thing why not honor them by giving them a chance to resist you over their destiny? Personally I find the Klingon resolution of allowing them to fade from existance, if that's their wish, and securing their system, tech, knowledge, and resources for the Glory of the Empire as the best course. It costs nothing to honor their desires. There is no need for the Federation to utilize the dishonorable tactics of a Ferengi. While Klingons are warriors and inclined to conquer we are never dishonest about who we are, and why we do what we do. We deal honorbaly with those we meet whether it's in battle, trade, or negotiations, besides each is a battlefield unto itself...lol

Hmm...perhaps, you're an aberation or a Ferengi in disquise....hmm.... I've had dealings with the Federation Ambassador Kheren, and while I submit the Federation has it's misguided ways, that Kheren is an Andorian of integraty. Your sad dishonesty dishonors your Federation, Fleet, and your name.

[Kheren]

I can see you think your mind lives in Ancient Egyptian Kingdom of De'nile. I commend you're blindness to reality, and deafness to what's plainly heard by all. Yes, it'll take all your courage to disillusion yourself from your delusions....perhaps, the stress has gotten to you. There, there, try this nice hot cup of green tea, I'm told it's quite soothing....* KlinZha, gently assists Ambassador Kheren to sit, and soothingly asks his aid Mok'Tar' Koh to call for a councelor, preferably a Betazed * KlinZha softly says.."it's okay my Honored Friend, stress can happen to anyone, and can play tricks on the mind. Hmm.... I know....I have these visuals of ice hockey games...nudge nudge wink wink that you may enjoy. * Klin Zha searches a small pile of holo disc, aha He says " here's the right one, this was a game played long ago between 2 great Earth Empires. One called Amerika, I think, the other Russa or is it.. Rusha? No matter, the Warriors vied for dominance in an arena called Olypic, is it Kheren? Until then the data disc states that the Ruska Warriors were undefeated, having well experienced fihgters of the puck, and the Amerikas had teenagers, while inexperianced had the hunger, drive, and the will from the skills they applied to suceed, as natural selection dictated. *Suddenly KlinZha's eye widen as if in revelation: I see Kheren what has unballenced you, and he continues with a quiet menace in his voice, growling the following as the words left a vile taste....it's terrible, unforgivable even what this Pet'ah Ambassador happyoutcast has done, for by stabbing you in the back, he handed us the moral imperative allowing the Empire to prevail here. Oh, this comentator Kosell truely has a warrior spirit........this battle'll be joyous to see!


Ah the fascinating, tortuous wonders of a delusionnal mind...

This does not take anything away from the victory of America in the Olympics... but The Russians were defeated many times over by the Canadians in world matches, the Olympics and even special confrontational series between the two; The Swedish teams and sometimes Finland defeated Russia more than once also. But, like Klingons, they always deluded themselves from reality, thinking everything was theirs to take...

Until their Empire folded on itself, consumed by it's own delusions. Hopefully, the Klingons will open their eyes before it happens to them. Unfortunately, it's not happening at the moment.

Do not worry about me; nobody but you was unbalanced, friend Klingon. As a member of the Federation, Happyoutcast is intitled to his opinion and totally free to express it with no fear of censorship. Since the Savii have been saved by Officer Alaric for a long time now, he can discuss his theories with everyone, even a dreaming Klingon.

Here let me help you from your bed. Drink your tea, it will help you to wake up.

Yes friend Klingon, the case is closed. The Savii have asked for our help and were saved days ago in full respect of their laws and ours. They are now happy members of the Federation as they wished too.

Drink some more tea.

[Kheren]

Trevors, your proposed Federation solution seems dishonorable to me, and I think such dishonesty will taint you. If your intent is to violate their rights, and do what you want to them in the name of a greater good, would it not be best to be upfront about it, and simply conquer them? If you're to do such a thing why not honor them by giving them a chance to resist you over their destiny? Personally I find the Klingon resolution of allowing them to fade from existance, if that's their wish, and securing their system, tech, knowledge, and resources for the Glory of the Empire as the best course. It costs nothing to honor their desires. There is no need for the Federation to utilize the dishonorable tactics of a Ferengi. While Klingons are warriors and inclined to conquer we are never dishonest about who we are, and why we do what we do. We deal honorbaly with those we meet whether it's in battle, trade, or negotiations, besides each is a battlefield unto itself...lol

Hmm...perhaps, you're an aberation or a Ferengi in disquise....hmm.... I've had dealings with the Federation Ambassador Kheren, and while I submit the Federation has it's misguided ways, that Kheren is an Andorian of integraty. Your sad dishonesty dishonors your Federation, Fleet, and your name.

Whaddaya know? We are now, more or less, in agreement!

There is indeed hope for us all.

[KlinZha]

Ah, my poor addled friend, you will recover, here's Councilor Xanti of Betazed. She'll set the cogs of your mind to whirling with logic and reason once again. In your delusional state you've failed to realize your Federation still debates and even still...the Trevors of the Federation ineptly attempt to meddle, I'm sure their droning will go on for decades even as they lament their misfotune here. Worry not my friend the Savii have found safe haven within the Empire. As I've said before, meaningless rambling is worthless, while decissively effective action is priceless! Here my friend, I've not been asleep in my bed, I've been sitting here by your side, and now your Councilor is here to minister to your befuddled mind. Oh, and I see your tea has gone cold, here I'll get you another, there, there my friend, sip slowly.

Hmm... the championships and preliminary matches to which you refer, preceeding the Olympic Battles, were but skirmishes. One can win many, yet it's that one pivatal moment which determines a world wide dominance. Once the best of 2 warring factions have met, with one having delivered the decissive blow, then it's over, as was the case with that Olypic Battle between those 2 great Empires. A pity you fell aslep durring the visual of the match, yet worry not my friend, it'll still be here when your yourself once again.

I commend you on your warrior spirit. Should you ever choose to cast off the shackles binding your warrior soul, know my friend, that there is a place for you in the Order. Now, allow me to help you sit up so the Councelor can examine you. Hmmm.... I know! There is a dispute in Cardassian space with regards to the Maquis. I would be honored to have you aboard the Bushido as my guest, another challenge worthy of your skills will bring that fiery fire back into your eyes!

[scottlilley1]

The prime directive would seem to make the answer easy. Since the federation dose not interfere in the natural devlopment of another civilisation we would clearly not be able to force this treatment upon them. I would make it known thoughout the civilisation that there is a cure availible, and that the federation would be glad to share this cure with anyone who chose to accept it. The hive mind might make it dificult for indeveguals to take a staind that gose aginst the goverments wishs, but I belive that as it becomes clear that thatr is no alternitive, and that without this cure the civillisation is doomed it will become harder and harder for the goverment to maintain control. Further more I would not be surprised if the goverment of this doomed civilisation eventualy relised that contenued survivle was in their best interestm and asked for the federations help. Relegons have been known to change, or fade away when they call for this kind of mass suiside. In the mean time I would station a team of histoins, and zooaligests on the planet to study the culture, and history of the people, and to preserve as much of it as they can so that even if the entire race dies their sprit, and history will live on, if only in a federation database. I would also make it clear that anyone wishing to leave the civilisation in favor of reciving the treatment would be aided in doing so by the federation, since it should be up to the indevegual, and not the goverment, how lage a rool relegon plays in their life, and just how far they are willing to go for their relegon. If enough people make the decsision to leave, then resetalment on a new planit, with aid from the federaion to build a new suscity becomes poseble, and in this way the hard linve relegus who would refuse to conprmise what they beleve in, even in the face of certen deth would be allowd to live out their life in the way they chose without imposing that choice on others, and the civelisation could be saved. Once those who chose to stay, and die have gone then of course those who left, or their decendents would have the optiion of returning to their home world, and making a new life for them selves there if they chose to.

[mianandre]

Happyyoutkast, Miannandre and all the others, do not bother with Klingon chest beating.

Read this, the very first communique of Federation Officer Alaric:

use genetic engineering to add elements of the Savii genome, specifically those relating to the hereditary illness, as well as those relating to pheromone production, into native plants, then perform the required genetic tweeks on the plants, and see if they can spread the cure via the pheremone network.


This completely respects both their religious belief (no alteration of their genome) and the Prime Directive (this solution is therefore perfectly acceptable to them and they welcome it).

Introducing a retrovirus within the flora rapidly spreaded the cure to the whole species through their own environement and forever cured them of this affliction. Moreover, it showed them a whole new path of advanced medecine for their race without compromising their Faith.

In gratitude for our help and for our respect of them as a culture and a sentient race, the Savii eagerly joins the United Federation of Planets. They now rejoice at being part of a whole where they truly can be themselves and we to welcome yet another form of sentience to enrich our wisdom of the universe.

Problem solved on page 4, post 35 (June 26). Poor delusional Klingon got out of bed on page 15, post 147 (June 28) reading old, stale news of theoretical officer debates on the subject and, not yet fully awake, started dreaming of conquest through deceit and oppression of a race already part of the Federation.

A commendation and a promotion are to be awarded to Officer Alaric for upholding the Federation values and Starfleet policy while saving an entire race from extinction.

This is very disconcerting. The Federation bending the rules for a cause already answered by the Savii and the UFPs own laws. How much can a reed bend before it breaks. Maybe the letter of the law was not broken, but certainly the spirit of the law was. In this scenario the Federation took the moral high ground and created a loophole and precedent for dismissing the Prime Directive.

This is truly disturbing.

[kristoffk]

one you must respect trere wishes but those wish may change as time goes by give them the cure and let them use it if and when they choose and the revist the planet in the near future to see how things are progressing.

[Messer_Macheath]

There is no decision to be made by a captain here. The Federation has laws stating they do not interfere with other species. The Federation would only make the Savii people aware that they have a possible treatment, but it would be up to the Savii race, as a people, to accept or decline that help. There is no "unsolvable" problem here. It isn't even a problem that should be left up to the captain of a single Starfleet vessel. It would be up to the Savii people to decide for themselves whether to accept this treatment or not.

-Mac.

[KlinZha]

*** Priority Transmition*** To: All Imperial Embassies, a transmition follows containing detailed files of High Crimes against sentiacy by the Federation At the Savii System. Convey these to your counterparts at all your missions.

[KlinZha]

*** Adendom to Prior*** Priority Transmition to all Imperial Embassies. detailed files of all criminals involved also being forwarded by curriers.

[KlinZha]

Is this the beginning of the end for the Prime Directive?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Read this, the very first communique of Federation Officer Alaric: Page 4 post # 35. This is the original entire post before it was altered by Federation Prophaganda to protect the Guilty, go to the original source page 4 post # 35 and see.

I think it's dangerous to assume too much about the behaviour, beliefs, or social make-up of the Savii. While many of the known extraterrestrial races are surprisingly human in their psychological makeup (Klingons, for example), others can be more alien. The first step, i think, should be to enter into a dialog with the leading philosophers, priests, scientists, thinkers, etc. of the Savii (assuming that they have that degree of individuality- otherwise, just enter into a dialog with the species as a whole), find out more about the nature of their beliefs and moral concepts. There may be some way to present the proposed genetic cure to them that they would find less repungnant- perhaps relating it to some religious parable of theirs or something.

If no solution can be reached in this way, there still may be other options. For example, perhaps in would be possible to use gentic engineering to add elements of the Savii genome, specifically those relating to the hereditary illness, as well as those relating to pheremone production, into native plants, then perform the required genetic tweeks on the plants, and see if they can spread the cure via the pheremone network. Or, perhaps the Savii would be less offended by more apparently-natural means of gentic alteration- maybe if some genetically-altered virus did the work, instead of Federation scientists or doctors, it would be more acceptable, for example.

If all else failed, it may be possible for a lone individual to go in illegally, kidnap a handful of Savii, and forcibly alter them to save the entire species.


This is very disconcerting. The Federation bending the rules for a cause already answered by the Savii and the UFPs own laws. How much can a reed bend before it breaks. Maybe the letter of the law was not broken, but certainly the spirit of the law was. In this scenario the Federation took the moral high ground and created a loophole and precedent for dismissing the Prime Directive.

This is truly disturbing.
I Ambassador KlinZha of House Zha, Klingon Imperial Diplomatic Mission, would not call such tactics a moral high ground, not when such willful disregard and blatant disrespect to people is used all in the name of a greater good. So much evil has been perpetrated in the name of a greater good since time immorial, how delicious to see the Federation not only use, yet advocate such dispicable tactics in clear violation of every inter galactic accord that exsists, even their own laws and traditions are meaningless when they attempt to pursue their vile agenda of forced genetic manipluation and eugenics! It goes against every concept of freewill and choice. If a race wishes to die, allow them the dignity to pass on as they see fit in accordance with their customs. Moreover page 4 post# 35 the Federation also implied the advocation of further indescriminate use of this tactic of trickery and deception to acheive their cladestine goals. It matters not to the Federation that a proud race wishes to honor their heretige. Clearly, only what the Federation feels is good for a people is the only solution for all involved. It's fortuitous that the Empire entered into dialog with the Savii, and having signed treaties with them, places the Empire in a possition to lend it's full support on their behalf. I"ll submit these documents from my offices in Savii to every civilized Government concerned with High Crimes against sentiancy. The Empire can understand outright and overt conquest, for comquest through honorable battle is a time honored and glorious tradition! we Klingons understand Diplomatic postering and maneuvering, which is a time honored tradition of Conquest by Diplomacy! However we catagorically abhor this horrific inter- galactic criminal behavior. If the Federation had any honor whatsoever in this they would at least have had decency to declare war upon these inocent people, and thus gain by trial of combat the rights they seek from theivery and deceit. Fortunately the Savii have a friend in the Empire, which shall forever shelter them giving them safe harbor from this roiling storm which is the Federation! Only through the Empires deligent efforts has these despicable transgressions been halted, those involved have been clearly identified, all files and evidenc involved have been duplicated en mass, and sent to all decent law abiding Governments. Federation, may History have mercy upon your souls

[Kheren]

You are SO right... and SO wrong!

But...

To all Starfleet officers, take notice: here is a Klingon who truly understands the Prime Directive when it is broken... but not when it is applied.

Understandable since the Klingon Empire do not apply anything of the like at all despite all of this ambassador's claims... Unless this Klingon Ambassador is the first of a revolutionnary movement that would turn their conquering Empire around to the full respect of sentience the Federation advocate since it's foundation centuries ago.

Would it be the case, Starfleet should take indeed a hard look at itself.

It is very disturbing when Starfleet cadets, and worse officers, attempt to ignore or trick their way out of the Prime Directive.

The ecological solution of Officer Alaric is a prime example of finding a solution in total respect of the Prime Directive, wich always means in full consent of the sentient species involved (ignore the ''you did not ask them'' rambling of the Klingon: it is only misreading of his part ; we always do, as it is the ''time you waste discussing'' he always refers to but choose to ignore when it suits him to try winning the argument. After all, to Klingons, winning is THE thing.)

Since no other galactic government even bother to apply anything even ressembling the Prime Directive (especially NOT Klingons) all his legal posturing is totally moot.

But how we would like it to be the reverse!

[KlinZha]

Ah, I never said there is a Galactic Government. However, my forgetful coligue apparently has little regard for Inter Galactic Law. When agreements are signed particularly between more than one Sovereign Politcal Entity, Those agreements of course are either enforced by the honor of the signatoreies, and of course the abiltiy to enforce consequences. Since this matter is of the gravest concern, other powers have been made aware of the Federation's willful criminal disregard.


Lol....moslt eloquently stated, however this does not alter the blatant lie, that it's well known the Savii wish for no interfearance, that they'll accept no genetic maniplution via by drirect or on direct means. The Federation solution will either force changes to the Savvi through genetic alterations of their eviroment, of which they will be unaware, and of course to which they have "not" concented to, and of course have publically rebuffed even the idea of. Further I submit the fact that the Federation's crimes do not end their, for upon failure of their attempt, they conspired to kidnap a or several Savii, and to forcefull introduce their genetic and eugenic experiments upon these inocent peoples, in complete disregard of all decency.

My esteamed coligue has offered only a smoke screen of lies and deceit in a pitiful attempt to distract from the crimes perpetrated by them.

[Kheren]

Unfortunately, the smoke is only in the eyes of our respected Klingon ambassador.

Everything is so twisted and blurred that it only expresses clearly his confusion in the face of blatant Federation success: a success achieved without any violence, in total accord and agreement with the Savii's beliefs and Starfleet regulations and with their total approval following their own request.

We must show understanding; Klingons cannot conceive of such a success: of a victory without force, without reward, without any benefit for themselves. It goes against the very fiber of their whole society cultivated for centuries, if not millenias, of constant and incessant honorable warfare and glorious bloodshed, assuming to perfection their predatorial nature.

Thus this continual twisting of facts and falsehoods to vainly try to grasp triumph outside of conquest, and for the benefit of others, not of self.

Compassion and help to the weaker is contrary their competitve, hunting nature. It is not for us to even think of changing it, but to understand what they are.

Should we then understand such a curious discourse as a sign of possibly some latent change forthcoming within Klingon culture? The start of evolution towards a way of life beyond mere Darwinism?

It can be nothing else. Klingons value Honor and courage above all else. It is inconceivable to beleive Klingons are trying to be deceitful, most of all towards themselves... or fear their own ways might be questionable.

[KlinZha]

Ah My esteemed colegue, such rehtoric does not alter the facts. You yourself either through having been decieved by your own Star Fleet or by malicious design of your own contrivance have falsely testified as to the measures attempted by the Federation. To 1st deny an attempt at such umwarrented genetic and eugentic engineering - against their will- then later once it's found that furthermore the federation tried to kidnap Savii to force upon them such genetic and eugentic experimentation, and in addition without any contrition whatsoever, the Federation claims a moral majority here? This is laughable beyond belief, perhaps for your part this may, perhaps be attributed to your......recent mental mishap, yet willful ignorance once the facts are plainly known can't absolve of such horendous crimes against sentiancy.

To say that the Empire twists facts outside of conquest is agian a ludricrous misdirection. Conquest is not required. The Empire as you can plainly see does have and utilize a Diplotmaic Corps, which fortunately for the Savii is has worked tirelessly on their behalf. The Savii's views and desires are fully respected by the Empire. The Savii and the Empire are fully allied on this matter, and our mutual concensus is complete.

In that the Empire prizes Honor and Courage above all else is something we do agree upon. We have the Honor the Federation lacks, for unlike the Federation we do not decieve as has been with the case with the Federation here. We have Courage to follow the convictions of decency which the Federation tries to throw to the winds.

How little you understand us Klingons...or the nature of debate, diplomacy, or simple conversation. The very expression of a thought, idea, or premiss whether it be in a court room, poltical opponents durring election, debating session, or a conversation expressing differing views is a form of battle, if you will. It's a verbal by play of wit, reason, and intelect requiring a courage unto itself especially in this arena when the fate of an entire species- their right to be who they are and their right to choose for themselves- chosen destiny is threatened to be stripped forcefully and/or covertly from them without their concent and contrary to their design and desire. That the Federation now lacks the respect for other cultures, their rights to choose for themselves is the true sad travesty here. The facts are quite clear. The federation in actuality and in truth has no leg to stand on here, none whatsoever, for the Federation squanders whatever honor they may, have by their continued denile here. Hmm....You are advocated a kind of faith that you are coorect, even when clear it's demonstrated you're not. Faith which ignors fact is fanatism, The federation is conducting a kind of inquistision against the Savii for darring to reject the Federations will.

[Messer_Macheath]

Happyyoutkast, Miannandre and all the others, do not bother with Klingon chest beating.

Read this, the very first communique of Federation Officer Alaric:

use genetic engineering to add elements of the Savii genome, specifically those relating to the hereditary illness, as well as those relating to pheromone production, into native plants, then perform the required genetic tweeks on the plants, and see if they can spread the cure via the pheremone network.


This completely respects both their religious belief (no alteration of their genome) and the Prime Directive (this solution is therefore perfectly acceptable to them and they welcome it).

Introducing a retrovirus within the flora rapidly spreaded the cure to the whole species through their own environement and forever cured them of this affliction. Moreover, it showed them a whole new path of advanced medecine for their race without compromising their Faith.

In gratitude for our help and for our respect of them as a culture and a sentient race, the Savii eagerly joins the United Federation of Planets. They now rejoice at being part of a whole where they truly can be themselves and we to welcome yet another form of sentience to enrich our wisdom of the universe.

Problem solved on page 4, post 35 (June 26). Poor delusional Klingon got out of bed on page 15, post 147 (June 28) reading old, stale news of theoretical officer debates on the subject and, not yet fully awake, started dreaming of conquest through deceit and oppression of a race already part of the Federation.

A commendation and a promotion are to be awarded to Officer Alaric for upholding the Federation values and Starfleet policy while saving an entire race from extinction.

I only have one question. These plants would be genetically altered by the Federation, and those genetic alterations would then be spread to the Savii people through the pheromones of the plants. My question is, would this pheromone alter the DNA of the Savii people? If so, I do not believe we can be so quick to assume the Savii people would be open to such a strategy.

By altering the genetic structure of the plantlife in the area, with the expected effect of altering the genetic structure of the Savii people, you are still altering the DNA of the Savii people, though removed by 1 degree. It cannot be assumed that the Savii people would accept the solution of having their genetic structure altered by the flora in the area, because that flora would be artificailly genetically enhanced itself.

An example. I shoot a man with my gun. He is dead, and I am a murderer. I give my loaded gun to my friend, and tell him to shoot a man. He does. I have now committed conspiracy to commit murder. While the 2 charges are technically different, the man is still dead, yes? And I am in prison.

Altering the genetic structure of the Savii people through pheromones in the flora is still altering their genetic structure. I don't believe we can assume that the Savii would welcome this solution with open arms, as we are still using an artificial genetic enhancement. The source may be a plant, or a cortical stimulator, I believe it would make little difference to the Savii. Allowing plants to give off a pheromone that alters the DNA of the Savii is no different than trapping them in a room, then flooding that room with a gas that cures them of their disease. It is my belief that the Savii would see it this way.

"The Savii, however, are a deeply religious people and they find these suggestions of genetic alterations invasive and highly offensive."

The Savii find genetic alterations invasive and highly offensive. No where in the scenario does it indicate that the Savii would be open to the possibility of genetic alterations, in any form. Therefore, it cannot be assumed that, while the Savii do not wish for artificial genetic enhancements to their own species, they would welcome it to the world around them.

In short, this solution does not satisfy me.

-Macheath.

[KlinZha]

Messer_Macheath, It's abit better than that. If you go to page 4 post 35, and read the actualy post, you'll find that part of it was omitted. The last lines also stated that if the attempt failed that some Savii should be kidnapped, and the genetic alterations forced upon them. This is why the Empire has on a DIplomatic level fought for the Savii, to have their rights, and desires respected. The Empire finds these acts by the Federation to be crimes against Sentiancy. With reasonable people such as you there may be some hope for the federation, perhaps. The Prime directive is not what concerns the Empire, that is a self imposed law the Federation uses to tie it's own hands. Though it's violation does signify a troubling trend here, that the federation will not even acknowledge it's own rules and laws, and failing to to that will give them even smaller regard if any for others...hmm....troubling indeed, for where does that end..hmm...an end to their respecting and upholding trade agreements, extradition agreements...oh my, where does this path lead ....The Empire's concern is the Forced gentic and eugenic maniplution of the Savii. Once a Galatic power treads down this path where does it end? What is the cost to us all? Does the Federation truely desire for such a genie to be left out of the bottle?

OOC (( Messer, I see you've made few posts so far. Are you new to STO? Welcome to STO if you are. From your Icon I'll gather you'll be Federation, yet if you're somewhat undecided why not consider a Klingon Fleet, I also know of a Goen Fleet the Black Crests- a Gorn Fleet could use people. Since the vast majority will be Federation, I try to see if new people might be willing to consider other factions. As for these posts I've made I've simply been roleplaying here abit. It keeps me occupied til the game goes live. ))