Player Effects on Environment - Devs and Others Please Read

[Commander_Nate]

Having just recently become aware that STO had been revived and getting somewhat up to speed on it, I had some thoughts and suggestions I wanted to share with the devs and community regarding player effects on the environment and the game. I'm definitely not new to Star Trek and I'm not new to MMO's either, although I only ever really got into one and it's been a while since I played it.

Here is my main point:

Basically I think, and hope, that the devs are planning on making it possible for players to permanently affect the game and environment. By this, I mean allowing them to capture, colonize, or otherwise influence the territory controlled by their Empire and/or Faction (fleet, house, etc) and have this reflected on the map. The actions of players and factions should also have permanent effects on diplomacy and the like with NPC characters and empires, whether they are already known (Tholians, Cardies, etc) or discovered in game. I know the devs have said there will be some permanence from players in the form of naming planets and whatnot but it should be much more than that. I feel that this is a very critical element to have in the game in order to sustain a player-base and make it succeed in the long-term

Here's why:

The only MMO I ever got into big time was WWII Online. It was buggy as eff when it came out, the graphics were never anything great, and it never really got all that popular. However, it did manage to sustain a decent player base for several years and was still going when I stopped playing a few years back. I played WWIIOL for probably 3-4 years in total with a few month-long breaks in there, and I never played any other MMO before or since. The reson my friends and squad and other players kept coming back was because everything you did mattered and lasted in the game.

I played for the German side in the game which was set in the early stages of WWII. Both sides would spend hours, even days, organizing offensives and cooridinating within and between squads and then executing these plans. Changing those French and British flags on the map into German ones required effort on the part of you and your buddies. There were times I would be logged in for hours straight with dozens of other players fighting over a key town's control points, trying to take out the other side's supply of armor, etc, and keeping the pressure on. You lose, and your side wasted all it's supplies in the area. You win and you might have just opened a huge hole into enemy territory. The next day, you could log in and the effects of what you did would still be there as well as the effects of what the enemy did in response.

This made the game and each battle or mission unique and allowed great creativity and a sense of real comraderie among players. We would go off on our own long distance commando or bombing raids to achieve a certain aim and things like that. Most imporatantly, they mattered, whether you succeeded or failed. You felt like you were doing something, kind of like an athlete in a big game or whatever. This is why WWIIOL was the only MMO I ever consistently played and why it had such a dedicated fanbase. MMOs like WoW, etc never appealed to me because in the end, you couldn't really have a significant impact on the game. You could get more powerful yes, you could PvP en masse, but it really didn't matter. When you logged in, the map and game was basically the same. I strongly feel that STO should incorporate a good deal of what WWIIOL did in order to build and keep a solid player base.

Here's how:

PvP: The idea I've heard of having areas around the NZ be contestable via player and fleet action is great. It sounds like it has very similar potential to what WWIIOL had. I think this should be expanded either by launch or in the future to other areas. Key planets like Earth, Vulcan, Quonos, etc probably shouldn't be included, but PvP territory changes should be a significant portion of the game.

PvE: Meeting new races through exploration is in as is fighting and engaging in diplomacy with them from what I understand. Players should be able to conquer them if they or the player/faction is hostile, or get them to join their side after serious diplomatic work if the opposite is true. These newly discovered races should respond in kind through their own actions based on previous events in the game. Once conquered, recruited, allied, or whatever, I think it would be a good idea to have these areas be open to PvP combat and territory change. Example: The Klingons discover and conquer race X through PvE. The UFP can then attempt to liberate the system through PvP if they so choose.

Exploration/Science: Players, fleets, and factions should be able to colonize planets or build their own stations through significant work. Players could also make "significant discoveries" for lack of a better term, that might lead to new technology or resources for their empire and faction. Example: A fleet of players cooperates on how to locate, open, and successfully navigate a new wormhole, leading to new areas on the map and advantage for their side. PvP could also be inluded here as appropriate.

Keeping it Real: Obviously conquering a system or making a huge new discovery would take some time, planning, and resources on the part of player, multiple players, or factions. This would keep things from changing chaotically as the result of random choices by a few players or a single player. It also in a sense lets players create their own missions, thus negating the need for devs to constantly come up with them and risking the game getting stale.

Conclusion:

I really think these ideas should be considered and included as possible. Allowing players to do things like change the map and make significant discoveries and other changes makes them feel like they are accomplishing things and want to keep going. It allows players, ships, and their fleets to become "famous" if you will and would make them feel like they are really part of the game. That is what I learned from my previous MMO time, and I really think it should be considered.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. Devs and others, please discuss and let me know what you think.

[SIMONLEV]

Great post. I really like the idea of having areas of control and conquest, always in a state of flux.

Incorporating PvE aspects into this design would make it really interesting as well and im hoping that they have

been considering this for quite some time now. there have been hints that they are definately thinking about it

but it is mostly up in the air until more info arrives. This game would be amazing if they pulled it off.

[billybob442]

Exploration/Science: Players, fleets, and factions should be able to colonize planets or build their own stations through significant work. Players could also make "significant discoveries" for lack of a better term, that might lead to new technology or resources for their empire and faction. Example: A fleet of players cooperates on how locate, open, and successfully navigate a new wormhole, leading to new areas on the map and advantage for their side. PvP could also be inluded here as appropriate.

Colonizing a whole planet seems a bit much. You'd be expanding into Spore/SimCity territory and I doubt the devs want that broad a scope for the game. That said, setting up small things like a supply depot, listening post to monitor the klinks, science outpost to watch developing worlds... etc. doesn't seem too far from their focus. It sounds like the sort of thing they might consider for inclusion in later expansions / updates.

[Commander_Nate]

Yeah that's basically what I was getting at, establishing a base or outpost or something, not actually colonizing the entire planet.

[Flatfingers]

Very nice post, Commander_Nate! Thanks for taking the time to develop those ideas.

I don't really object to the suggestions you make, but let me ask you, if you would, to back up one step.

I appreciate that you liked the change-the-gameworld aspects of WWIIOL, and that you'd enjoy seeing something like them in Star Trek Online. Which brings to mind two questions.

First, why do you feel those things would be appropriate for this particular game? Do you believe the features you suggest are somehow inherently worth having in every MMORPG? Or is there something about them that you think makes them an especially good fit for this particular MMORPG based on the world of Star Trek?

And second, why do you feel those features would be enjoyable by all the other people besides yourself who are likely to subscribe to a Star Trek MMORPG?

Again, please note that I don't actually disagree with your suggestions. They might indeed be perfect for this game, and enjoyable by many of its likely players. I'm just trying to get a better understanding of why you believe that.

Thanks!

--Flatfingers

[Gerrard]

Great thoughts by the OP, but even greater response by Flatfingers. Thoughts like those on both sides can be huge in bringing about changes in the Devs way of thinking. I too would like to hear the answers to Flat's questions.

[Commander_Nate]

Very nice post, Commander_Nate! Thanks for taking the time to develop those ideas.

I don't really object to the suggestions you make, but let me ask you, if you would, to back up one step.

I appreciate that you liked the change-the-gameworld aspects of WWIIOL, and that you'd enjoy seeing something like them in Star Trek Online. Which brings to mind two questions.

First, why do you feel those things would be appropriate for this particular game? Do you believe the features you suggest are somehow inherently worth having in every MMORPG? Or is there something about them that you think makes them an especially good fit for this particular MMORPG based on the world of Star Trek?

And second, why do you feel those features would be enjoyable by all the other people besides yourself who are likely to subscribe to a Star Trek MMORPG?

Again, please note that I don't actually disagree with your suggestions. They might indeed be perfect for this game, and enjoyable by many of its likely players. I'm just trying to get a better understanding of why you believe that.

Thanks!

--Flatfingers

Good questions. It's always good to bounce ideas off of other people.

1) I don't necessarily think these ideas are meant for every MMO, but I think they are suited to many of them. I especially believe this if it's going to be an MMO based on any kind strategic, faction based conflict. The Trek universe is essentially a long saga of galactic strategy and politics so STO fits nicely into this category. It might take more time up front to develop, but I think it makes the game last in the long run because players end up having a lot to do with developing missions and keeping the game fresh. The devs just have to perform maintenance and keep adding upgrades as needed.

2) This will kind of answer both your first and second questions. Yes, I think it will be enjoyable to a large majority of players. Basically what we are talking about is a large degree of non-linear gameplay where you aren't being told by the game what to do all the time. It's like what Spore did but with some actual structure so it will actually work. There are already pre-existing factions in ST and plenty of history, so players will have a definite structure to play within, rather than just getting lost and bored like happened in Spore. They will however, be free to go about this structure largely in their own way, and leave their own mark on it. I think most players would jump at that chance. How many times have you been playing a game and thought "Why can't I try this?"

We all know the complaints from WoW, EQ, etc...the quests are boring and repetative after a while. You can kill boss x or y, but come back the next day and it's still there, unchanged. It feels like you're playing football but never leaving the 50 yard line, let a lone scoring. I think players will respond much more positively to say, seeing a border on a map move after a team of them fought another team for a few hours over a system, then logging in to see the ripple effects of this the next day. It feels much more like you accomplished a goal, and much more importantly, your own goal within the larger context of the game's story. IE: UFP and Klingons are at war being the overall story. Your fleet took some time to make a plan of attack on one of their systems, then cooridinated and executed that plan.

This idea of organization kind of took off on it's own in WWIIOL. Players basically organized themselves after a while. However, you could still play on your own and not get an adverse experience out of it. You could do this in STO also for more casual gamers, and this is where more dev developed missions should come into play.

That's basically why I think it will work for STO, combined properly with dev created missions and storylines.

[Zepath]

I like some of the ideas offered by the OP ... but I get real nervous when "permanent" gets thrown around.

I would like to point out however, that its already been stated that "dynamic" is a huge part of the game's design according to everything Cryptic has said so far. And those of us that have played their games know Cryptic is pretty damned good at "dynamic".

"Dynamic" and "Permanent" don't typically work too well together.

I would expect to see "control points" in the game if for no other reason than to provide goals in PvP play. If their idea of PvP is just going out, flying around and dueling, that will get old quick. But I would expect those control points to be more along the lines of, "the faction that currently controls that planet (or whatever) can repair there, sell there, buy there, whatever.

I have no clue what they will do ... its all speculation sprinkled with a little hope on my part.

But one thing the OP has to keep in mind is, WWIIOL (and yes I played it) was a PvP game. STO is not a PvP game. It will have PvP, but that is not its focus. It is not going to be Warhammer in space.

[Commander_Nate]

I like some of the ideas offered by the OP ... but I get real nervous when "permanent" gets thrown around.

I would like to point out however, that its already been stated that "dynamic" is a huge part of the game's design according to everything Cryptic has said so far. And those of us that have played their games know Cryptic is pretty damned good at "dynamic".

"Dynamic" and "Permanent" don't typically work too well together.

I would expect to see "control points" in the game if for no other reason than to provide goals in PvP play. If their idea of PvP is just going out, flying around and dueling, that will get old quick. But I would expect those control points to be more along the lines of, "the faction that currently controls that planet (or whatever) can repair there, sell there, buy there, whatever.

I have no clue what they will do ... its all speculation sprinkled with a little hope on my part.

But one thing the OP has to keep in mind is, WWIIOL (and yes I played it) was a PvP game. STO is not a PvP game. It will have PvP, but that is not its focus. It is not going to be Warhammer in space.

I think you and I are thinking along the same lines. I'm not saying "permanent" as in the map changes will necessarily be everlasting. The other factions could always come and take a planet or whatever back once they mustered the forces to do so.

It could also work in a non-combat style of PvP in regard to exploration and research. For example, racing another fleet or something to discover the key pieces of an artifact in order to gain the right to use, trade, or sell it's benefits as you and your fleet want.

Whatever they do for combat and other forms of PvP and PvE it needs to be goal oriented and non-linear. WWIIOL was the best manifestation of this I've seen to date, despite it's many other deficiencies.They are going to be huge portions of the game and need to be focused on. In fact, in areas where PvP is going to be allowed, I doubt there will be anything but.

[redbeard1682]

dynamic campaigns/starbases/planets being able to change hands (excepting starting bases for new players to get accustomed) etc. = sounds good to me.

[Commander_Nate]

Just to add: I'm kind of thinking that we are going to start with good portions of the Fed. Kling. and other major powers being unchangable and having no PvP except by consent. Then having large border areas and NZ PvP. Then having the unexplored areas as PvE/PvP. Once a PvE area changes (like a new civilization is conquered or recruited into a major faction) I think it should become a PvP zone. It makes sense in terms of the galactic politics of the game.

[dru_mcd]

I agree with the gist of the OP. Unexplored space IMO would be the perfect place to implement this design.

I feel that "Known Space" should be off limits so the Devs can expand on known areas and later implement changes like other known factions (Romulans, Cardassians) if possible.

There would also need to be some planning in which areas to open up, it couldn't be a free-for-all since the Devs wouldn't want to paint themselvs into a corner so to speak.

That being said, I can realy get behind the idea of an "organic" frontier. It would enhance the feeling of a player "contributing" to the universe that they were playing in. **And, needless to say, would make the entire point of factions relevant.** If implemented wisely, I think that could be a very nice layer to the game.

[loyaltrekie]

I heard if you put "Devs please read" or something of that nature, it draws more dev attention to the thread. Pretty awesome.

[Commander_Nate]

I heard if you put "Devs please read" or something of that nature, it draws more dev attention to the thread. Pretty awesome.

I'd hope so, considering it's their input on the idea that carries the most weight. :D

I agree with the gist of the OP. Unexplored space IMO would be the perfect place to implement this design.

I feel that "Known Space" should be off limits so the Devs can expand on known areas and later implement changes like other known factions (Romulans, Cardassians) if possible.

There would also need to be some planning in which areas to open up, it couldn't be a free-for-all since the Devs wouldn't want to paint themselvs into a corner so to speak.

That being said, I can realy get behind the idea of an "organic" frontier. It would enhance the feeling of a player "contributing" to the universe that they were playing in. **And, needless to say, would make the entire point of factions relevant.** If implemented wisely, I think that could be a very nice layer to the game.

I was just thinking, what about making the border systems of each faction PvP areas? As the borders change, so would the PvP areas. Any NPC system absorbed by a faction would then become a border system and open to PvP. That way it stays dynamic and gives it that authentic, frontier feel they are looking for.

[justynhuculak]

I love this idea. It's well thought out and would definitely keep every gaming session fresh and new. I can only think of one thing that would detract from the experience though, and that'd be the lopsidedness that seems to be prevalent (it looks like there will be a LOT more Federation players than Klingons, although those sneaky ridgeheads might just be keeping silent to lure us into a false sense of security :eek:). Otherwise though, its a fantastic idea, and if Cryptic could come up with a way to balance things out I'd love to see it in-game.

[Johenric]

Having just recently become aware that STO had been revived and getting somewhat up to speed on it, I had some thoughts and suggestions I wanted to share with the devs and community regarding player effects on the environment and the game. I'm definitely not new to Star Trek and I'm not new to MMO's either, although I only ever really got into one and it's been a while since I played it.

Here is my main point:

Basically I think, and hope, that the devs are planning on making it possible for players to permanently affect the game and environment. By this, I mean allowing them to capture, colonize, or otherwise influence the territory controlled by their Empire and/or Faction (fleet, house, etc) and have this reflected on the map. The actions of players and factions should also have permanent effects on diplomacy and the like with NPC characters and empires, whether they are already known (Tholians, Cardies, etc) or discovered in game. I know the devs have said there will be some permanence from players in the form of naming planets and whatnot but it should be much more than that. I feel that this is a very critical element to have in the game in order to sustain a player-base and make it succeed in the long-term

Here's why:

The only MMO I ever got into big time was WWII Online. It was buggy as eff when it came out, the graphics were never anything great, and it never really got all that popular. However, it did manage to sustain a decent player base for several years and was still going when I stopped playing a few years back. I played WWIIOL for probably 3-4 years in total with a few month-long breaks in there, and I never played any other MMO before or since. The reson my friends and squad and other players kept coming back was because everything you did mattered and lasted in the game.

I played for the German side in the game which was set in the early stages of WWII. Both sides would spend hours, even days, organizing offensives and cooridinating within and between squads and then executing these plans. Changing those French and British flags on the map into German ones required effort on the part of you and your buddies. There were times I would be logged in for hours straight with dozens of other players fighting over a key town's control points, trying to take out the other side's supply of armor, etc, and keeping the pressure on. You lose, and your side wasted all it's supplies in the area. You win and you might have just opened a huge hole into enemy territory. The next day, you could log in and the effects of what you did would still be there as well as the effects of what the enemy did in response.

This made the game and each battle or mission unique and allowed great creativity and a sense of real comraderie among players. We would go off on our own long distance commando or bombing raids to achieve a certain aim and things like that. Most imporatantly, they mattered, whether you succeeded or failed. You felt like you were doing something, kind of like an athlete in a big game or whatever. This is why WWIIOL was the only MMO I ever consistently played and why it had such a dedicated fanbase. MMOs like WoW, etc never appealed to me because in the end, you couldn't really have a significant impact on the game. You could get more powerful yes, you could PvP en masse, but it really didn't matter. When you logged in, the map and game was basically the same. I strongly feel that STO should incorporate a good deal of what WWIIOL did in order to build and keep a solid player base.

Here's how:

PvP: The idea I've heard of having areas around the NZ be contestable via player and fleet action is great. It sounds like it has very similar potential to what WWIIOL had. I think this should be expanded either by launch or in the future to other areas. Key planets like Earth, Vulcan, Quonos, etc probably shouldn't be included, but PvP territory changes should be a significant portion of the game.

PvE: Meeting new races through exploration is in as is fighting and engaging in diplomacy with them from what I understand. Players should be able to conquer them if they or the player/faction is hostile, or get them to join their side after serious diplomatic work if the opposite is true. These newly discovered races should respond in kind through their own actions based on previous events in the game. Once conquered, recruited, allied, or whatever, I think it would be a good idea to have these areas be open to PvP combat and territory change. Example: The Klingons discover and conquer race X through PvE. The UFP can then attempt to liberate the system through PvP if they so choose.

Exploration/Science: Players, fleets, and factions should be able to colonize planets or build their own stations through significant work. Players could also make "significant discoveries" for lack of a better term, that might lead to new technology or resources for their empire and faction. Example: A fleet of players cooperates on how to locate, open, and successfully navigate a new wormhole, leading to new areas on the map and advantage for their side. PvP could also be inluded here as appropriate.

Keeping it Real: Obviously conquering a system or making a huge new discovery would take some time, planning, and resources on the part of player, multiple players, or factions. This would keep things from changing chaotically as the result of random choices by a few players or a single player. It also in a sense lets players create their own missions, thus negating the need for devs to constantly come up with them and risking the game getting stale.

Conclusion:

I really think these ideas should be considered and included as possible. Allowing players to do things like change the map and make significant discoveries and other changes makes them feel like they are accomplishing things and want to keep going. It allows players, ships, and their fleets to become "famous" if you will and would make them feel like they are really part of the game. That is what I learned from my previous MMO time, and I really think it should be considered.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. Devs and others, please discuss and let me know what you think.

I have posted this kind of idea a couple times in other threads over the past year or so but never seen a dev directly respond to it. If Cryptic does this it will be an EPIC WIN. I do get worried though when devs don't respond to great ideas...usualy means they don't want to bring it center, which usualy means they are not doing whatever said thing is. But i am making a BIG assumption so go for the WIN Cryptic and make a game where player action mean more then just more pixle loot. YAWN Ya want a pointless MMO go play WoW lol. Win a thousand battles or lose a thousand battles, it matters not, nothing changes.

Great post Commander Nate. I love it.

[USSREVENGE]

Im new to STO but i belive this idea definatly has merit. The only problem i see is if 1 faction/fleet gains to much power this way ie the feds push the klingons so far back it makes gameplay on said side limited.

however one solution for this i will throw out there is that if the feds do get to powerfull for to long and klingon players start quitting cos there being ganked the devs could push back the feds with say a borg\dominion invasion into fed space giving klingons the opportunity to push back the borders and reclaim a power base

this gives the chance for the devs to controll things players the ability to accomplish stuff on both sides and will spice up gameplay with drama a story and a hell of alot of explotions making every1 happy:D

feds get to quell a borg invasion and reap whatever benafits that entail. klingons get to gang some distracted feds and gain a better foothold and the borg get to assimilate stuff and mabe assimilate only if there rly rly lucky grandma's cheesecake recipe

[Commander_Nate]

Im new to STO but i belive this idea definatly has merit. The only problem i see is if 1 faction/fleet gains to much power this way ie the feds push the klingons so far back it makes gameplay on said side limited.

however one solution for this i will throw out there is that if the feds do get to powerfull for to long and klingon players start quitting cos there being ganked the devs could push back the feds with say a borg\dominion invasion into fed space giving klingons the opportunity to push back the borders and reclaim a power base

this gives the chance for the devs to controll things players the ability to accomplish stuff on both sides and will spice up gameplay with drama a story and a hell of alot of explotions making every1 happy:D

feds get to quell a borg invasion and reap whatever benafits that entail. klingons get to gang some distracted feds and gain a better foothold and the borg get to assimilate stuff and mabe assimilate only if there rly rly lucky grandma's cheesecake recipe

Well when this happened in WWIIOL, the devs would just reset the server once one side or other had lost all of it's towns. There were a few hours maybe where you could log in and see your flag everywhere on the map if your side had won and celebrate. Then the map would reset and start over. It took several months for this whole process to happen if not more, so it never got old and each campaign developed differently.

This probably wouldn't be that much of a problem though in a game like STO that is supposed to be in an expanding universe with plenty of uncharted territory out there. If worst comes to worst, Cryptic could just force "negotiations" and have the overpowering side give up some of the systems it took. I feel like it's a pretty easy problem to fix.

[SIMONLEV]

Hey nate u may be interested to read the ending question of this Ask Cryptic. It may be a similar system to what u are proposing or it may be something else that is different and totally unique to Cryptic

I AM in no way stating that this is what cryptic will and should do im just saying

http://www.startrekonline.com/node/85

[Commander_Nate]

Hey nate u may be interested to read the ending question of this Ask Cryptic. It may be a similar system to what u are proposing or it may be something else that is different and totally unique to Cryptic

I AM in no way stating that this is what cryptic will and should do im just saying

http://www.startrekonline.com/node/85

Ok cool, sounds like they are considering some form of this. I really hope they take a look at what we've been talking about here and what WWIIOL and other similar games have done with this idea. It worked out well there and I think Cryptic could definitely expand on it's success. I'd really like to hear some dev feedback though.

[Loekii]

The thing is they need to keep the game pristine for the players that don't start playing on Day One.

[Commander_Nate]

That's understandable, but that can be done by limiting it only to border systems and PvE areas. Then basically just have a bunch of core systems in each empire that can't change hands. Essentially they would be safe zones for new players, players that don't want to PvP, whatever. Remember they are also going to make it where you have to agree to PvP out of the designated zones too, so new players don't have to worry about that.