Rekhan STO vs. EvE combat!! [Archive] - Star Trek Online Forums

J.L.Picard

06-26-2009, 08:16 AM

Quote from Rekhan

If you follow only steps 1 and 2, you won't survive. Seriously, the combat is nothing like EVE's. EVE's combat is more strategic than it is tactical, meaning that you tend to determine your survival chances based on the choices you make before the actual fight. If you have a bad fitting loadout and fight against someone with a good one, unless you're lucky or incredibly good, you don't make it.

STO's is more tactical. The technology you put on your ship does have an effect on your performance, but your tactics matter a lot more. For instance, it's not just "move around objects like asteroids," it's put an asteroid between you and the other guy(s) so you have some cover and time to charge up your shields a bit more, or maneuver to keep a big ship from continually hammering at one side of your ship so it doesn't break through your shields as easily.

Don't get me wrong. I like EVE's combat a lot; I like STO's a lot, too. But they're not the same at all.
END QUOTE!

You made this post Rekhan a while ago i think however, you did not mention which one you prefer. I can understand that STO is obviously in development but you seem to have a good idea as to how it will end up, from the way you said that, so which is your fav and please be honest, if your allowed.

Kinjiru

06-26-2009, 09:12 AM

You made this post Rekhan a while ago i think however, you did not mention which one you prefer. I can understand that STO is obviously in development but you seem to have a good idea as to how it will end up, from the way you said that, so which is your fav and please be honest, if your allowed.

You don't really expect him to say EVE do you?

For my part, I just tried the trial again, found EVE just as boring as it was for me before. It's just not my cup o' tea. :)

Alfie-Fandango

06-26-2009, 09:18 AM

Think of this as POTBS in space without Line of sight support and you'll be on the right lines.

I mean slow ship warfare on a level plain?

Its POTBS in space! WaHOOO!

Commander_Nate

06-26-2009, 10:10 AM

POTBS? *Hopes this isn't an obvious acronym that he will be embarassed by not knowing*

dyvimtorm

06-26-2009, 10:16 AM

POTBS? *Hopes this isn't an obvious acronym that he will be embarassed by not knowing*

Pirates of the Burning Sea.

Ummm....ok, JL, just....I don't think I've said this before....not a great post, dude. Rekham's already weighed in in one sense: they're different. Apples to oranges seems to be what he's implying. And asking him to choose one, in the face of what he does? Plus, another thread on Eve vs. STO? Dude. I hearby opine I don't need to hear Rekham's opinion in this matter, and will think better of him if he doesn't respond to this. I feel this strongly enough to allow a thread bump. My apologies to you, JL, I usually enjoy reading your posts, but this one wasn't good for me. Hmmmm....that sentence seems odd.....

tpatm

06-26-2009, 10:20 AM

... in STO there is LOS-support
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=609174#post609174

and its fully 3D not in a plane

Resistance

06-26-2009, 11:58 AM

EVE is just about having your loadout set before heading out..... theres very little strategy or tactics to it.

STO will be more tactical...........

I don't know which you would prefer, however, I would certainly want more tactical gameplay, rather than just having a preset loadout before hand to determine whether I win the battle or not.

onesoul1982

06-26-2009, 12:30 PM

You don't really expect him to say EVE do you?

For my part, I just tried the trial again, found EVE just as boring as it was for me before. It's just not my cup o' tea. :)

Yah..EVE isn't for me either. I loved Earth and Beyond though. I'd love to see some of that revived here in STO.

inXi

06-26-2009, 12:35 PM

I want to bring to everyone's attention that despite the fact that Eve has LoS and has 3D space, you guys don't want to play it.

onesoul1982

06-26-2009, 12:43 PM

I want to bring to everyone's attention that despite the fact that Eve has LoS and has 3D space, you guys don't want to play it.

I've played EVE and your are correct my green blooded, pointy eared friend..I do not wish to partake in it :p

KashikoiBaka

06-26-2009, 12:45 PM

I want to bring to everyone's attention that despite the fact that Eve has LoS and has 3D space, you guys don't want to play it.

And yet there are some that do, EvE has even made it easier to start the game, allegedly it no longer has that annoying learning curve as soon as you exit the space station, I haven't played it since the change though. And Earth and Beyond was awesome. If any of you haven't played eve I suggest getting a trial account and playing it out for the time they give you and come up with your own opinion on the game. What do you have to lose? Sto wont be out for a while after all and the Trial account is free.

inXi

06-26-2009, 12:47 PM

Some people here play Eve, I know. But doesn't look like it's too much people.

I played the trial account. I could see myself enjoying the game somewhat... and it's a well done game. It's just not really my cup of tea.

Manta2015

06-26-2009, 12:51 PM

KashikoiBaka

06-26-2009, 12:54 PM

EvE does require a different sort of strategy ~ whether It'll compare in combat tactics (seeing it's also planned to be on one server) is yet to be seen. You really can't get an idea how EvE is in mere weeks ~

-Manta-

Only because training some skills takes months and that is where you actually get to pilot the larger ships. Mining however is a therapeutic practice when you're not worried about getting jumped in a kill zone and you forgot to insure your clone.

inXi

06-26-2009, 01:02 PM

Mining is the part of EVE I started liking until the game started getting hella confusing (this guy couldn't accept my 1200 Veldspar. Idiot). I even bought a drone and got the skills to use it and all. :p I think I could get into the whole blueprint thing... but, in general, I was very reminded of X3. Except X3 is an SP game so it's reasonable. MMO's tend to be very unreasonable regarding amounts of time one needs to spend. Basically why I chose to drop it.

But the combat was just... bad. Even worse than WoW. At least in WoW, you get to click buttons in chosen order. I guess Eve is a really good game if you just want to relax and stare at space but even the space wasn't all that exciting since it was all just black... it was really that kind of a serene game. I heard it was done for economy but by this time the economy is so advanced that a new player has a very hard time getting anywhere.

But the point I was making is that 3D movement and all that in EVE didn't really make much of a difference. You can roll all you want but there really isn't any point to it. The 3D creates a more realistic feel but it is not necessary. EVE would be just the same with 2.5D movement and no rolling...

yardbird

06-26-2009, 01:09 PM

I guess Eve is a really good game if you just want to relax and stare at space but even the space wasn't all that exciting since it was all just black... it was really that kind of a serene game. I heard it was done for economy but by this time the economy is so advanced that a new player has a very hard time getting anywhere.

But the point I was making is that 3D movement and all that in EVE didn't really make much of a difference. You can roll all you want but there really isn't any point to it. The 3D creates a more realistic feel but it is not necessary. EVE would be just the same with 2.5D movement and no rolling...

I suppose I can understand the hardcore EVEers. It's a very particular trip.

But, to my tastes, it felt like a lab experiment more than an MMO. A little... humourless and cold. Nice ambient music, liked that. Hard to get emotionally invested in, though. Trek won't pose that problem, and that should make the combat more fun and engaging by several thousand factors of enjoyment.

Acherion

06-26-2009, 02:16 PM

I am playing EVE now since I totally crashed and burned from 3+ years of Warcraft and it is a very different style of play from any other space sim I've seen (list includes Wing Commander, Privateer, All 3 Starfleet Command games, Freelancer and so on). It is correct that how your ship is very critical to success / survival. There are very inexpensive (time and money) ways to shut a ship down completely and almost everyone you need to worry about tends to run in gangs. It's a lot like WOW but instead of classes you have ship fitting setups to do similar tasks such as tanking or healing or DPS or crowd control. Outside of that the bulk of the actual fight is really Run in - Crowd Control (tackle) - shoot till dead, wash - rinse - repeat. Tactics in EVE are really role based, not induvidual based.

All that being said, I CAN"T WAIT FOR THIS GAME!!!!! EVE is very slow and there is very little control over your progression due to their skill training system.

Please release this game soon !!!!!

Zepath

06-26-2009, 02:27 PM

I played Eve for over a year. I liked the game.

The reason I quit playing Eve was because of the skill training system. I mean who wants to spend 6 or 8 weeks just hanging our waiting for a skill to develop. And then while you are hanging out for those 6 to 8 weeks, it starts to dawn on you, "I will never be able to catch up with these guys, no matter how much I play."

One thing about Eve tho ... especially for those that haven't played it ... their inventory/crafting system was the best of any game I have ever played. EVER!

EVERYTHING, and I mean everything is made by the players, there seems to be ZERO limit to your inventory.

I mean when I hit 100s of items I thought .... there has to be a cap coming soon. Then when hit 1000s of items I thought, "there HAS to be a cap coming." When I left the game I had at least 3,000 items .... blueprints, crafting supplies, ammo, torperdos, ships (I think I had like 40 ships ... all of them outfitted for different things), completed ship modules .... the system was just mind blowing.

buckminst

06-26-2009, 02:30 PM

As an EVE player myself, I can certainly understand the sentiment expressed by the people here. EVE is definitely more hands-off in combat - Once you engage modules, there's not much you have to do except monitor your systems and your overview. If you have a good ship with a good loadout you can shut other ships down entirely, especially in 1v1 situations (I'm looking at you ECM drones @_@).

Those who have said that STO will be more emotionally involving are correct - the potential opportunity for roleplay is far greater in STO currently. If EVE ever releases Walking In Stations that might change some, but the two games are just differently focused.

That said, I do hope to see a little of EVE's flavor in STO. A vibrant, gold-pressed latinum-based player-driven economy would be great, and the sheer vastness of EVE's universe would be something I'd welcome in STO.

I just hope STO is more solo-friendly. I found EVE to be harder to stick with until I found a good group of people to associate with, and after that my interest in the game expanded. I'm hoping STO will be easier to stick with, and it most likely will - I grew up on Trek, perhaps not TOS but definitely the TOS-era movies, TNG, DS9...

The sooner I can hear "Captain on the bridge" directed at me as I enter my shiny new Miranda-class newbie ship, the better. Here's hoping Beta starts soon, and may STO live long and prosper.

Kinjiru

06-26-2009, 02:57 PM

That said, I do hope to see a little of EVE's flavor in STO. A vibrant, gold-pressed latinum-based player-driven economy would be great, and the sheer vastness of EVE's universe would be something I'd welcome in STO.

Hi Buckminst, welcome to the STO forums!

Respectfully, I truly hope that isn't the case. STO should contain crafting and an economy, but not as a capitalism-gone-wild, get rich end-all game, where you can buy anything that you need, or collecting "loot" is more important than helping (or conquering) a newly discovered race of pre-warp sentients. In fact, in most MMOs that I can think of, the exception being PlanetSide, the overriding theme seems to be the amassing of wealth. Even in SWG, more important than crushing the Rebellion, or fighting the tyranny of the Galactic Empire, getting rich is a major goal.

That's a mistake as far as I'm concerned. It works in better in some games, EvE, for example was designed with an economy driven game in mind, and I'll concede that it makes like-minded players happy. But Star Trek, while having an economy to craft and trade consumables, shouldn't be economy driven, it should be gameplay driven, exploration driven, story driven.

In my opinion, I find EvE's gameplay extremely shallow. If I wanted to be an economist, I'd be playing on Wall Street instead of online games. :)

Manta2015

06-26-2009, 03:28 PM

A streamlined, much faster paced (and not time reliant) version of EvE would be perfect for STO ~ Simplified, but not to basic, it'd still be great to have such vast potential for the size of the galaxy we reside in. The economy of other MMOs work just fine, so there are many factors from not just EvE that could make STO truly amazing, if Cryptic aims for it =)

-Manta-

jblancato

06-26-2009, 04:25 PM

You made this post Rekhan a while ago i think however, you did not mention which one you prefer. I can understand that STO is obviously in development but you seem to have a good idea as to how it will end up, from the way you said that, so which is your fav and please be honest, if your allowed.

Short answer: I like them both. They really are different enough that objectively comparing them doesn't really make sense.

Short answer part 2: Traditionally, MMO combat is most fun for me in PvP. So until I have you noobs in my sights in STO, I can't definitively say. :p

RookActual

06-26-2009, 04:35 PM

Short answer: I like them both. They really are different enough that objectively comparing them doesn't really make sense.

Short answer part 2: Traditionally, MMO combat is most fun for me in PvP. So until I have you noobs in my sights in STO, I can't definitively say. :p

It is very much on. You have to promise to play as unfairly as possible, though, with all of your dev assets at the ready. So when you do destroy me, I can say you were cheating. If your ship outmaneuvers me with a roll, you'd better expect another 80 page thread, too!

BIGDUKE6

06-26-2009, 04:45 PM

Devs ships cant roll. It would spill their Double Late Mocha.

erriku

06-26-2009, 05:02 PM

jblancato

06-26-2009, 05:08 PM

I will look for you on the battlefield while under the safety of a cloak and backed by superior Klingon technology.

Someday, when your STO descendants speak of the legend of the Dread Pirate Rekhan, you'll shake your head slowly and remember the first time you lost your ship.

:D

BIGDUKE6

06-26-2009, 05:19 PM

"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

inXi

06-26-2009, 05:31 PM

STO should contain crafting and an economy, but not as a capitalism-gone-wild, get rich end-all gameI second this. Getting rich should be hard. Usually, this is done via various sinks, upkeep, interest rates on stuff, durability... I guess one thing that was never implemented is, say, some weapon that gets old, eventually, and needs to be replaced with a newer, much more expensive version.

There should be a long list of "stuff" that you are able to get. And once you get everything, STO moves on to the next era, devs add content, old stuff dies, there's some inflation... and you need to keep going. The whole "end-game" junk is, in my opinion, what makes games a bit unbalanced for long-time players. There needs to be occasional throwing back.

BIGDUKE6

06-26-2009, 05:51 PM

Getting rich is any mmo is easy. Identify a need in the server player base and exploit it, monopolize it, profit from it. My WoW guild had several members that were great at judging the servers economic needs. We would then as a guild do our best to corner the market.

Our surplus in cash provide our raiding members with 1000 gold mailings and helped us push to the top raiding guild on the server. As top guild we were the first on farm status and would sell loot from our raids to further our future raiding goals.

Any economy that is player controlled will be venerable to player ingenuity. Bust out the Rules of Acquisition, its time to make some cash.

KashikoiBaka

06-26-2009, 05:53 PM

Someday, when your STO descendants speak of the legend of the Dread Pirate Rekhan, you'll shake your head slowly and remember the first time you lost your ship.

:D

If only I hadn't parked in that handicap spot at space dock..

inXi

06-26-2009, 06:09 PM

Getting rich is any mmo is easy. Identify a need in the server player base and exploit it, monopolize it, profit from it.There's nothing wrong with that if there is enough junk to spend your money. Unless you just want to keep collecting it, but you'll get behind.

I see a problem when you have a bunch of money and everything is just way too cheap.

RemyBlack

06-26-2009, 06:10 PM

Someday, when your STO descendants speak of the legend of the Dread Pirate Rekhan, you'll shake your head slowly and remember the first time you lost your ship.

"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

Sorry but I do not know how to do multiple quotes, but omg this is to funny. I say we do an arena put Rekhan in the middle,(or Dev of choice), and they take on the community one at a time. Duel style and see which Dev lastes the longest or drops the most noobs. LOL oohh man tears, stomach cramps, need air

sbrodie

06-26-2009, 08:46 PM

Someday, when your STO descendants speak of the legend of the Dread Pirate Rekhan, you'll shake your head slowly and remember the first time you lost your ship.

Sorry but I do not know how to do multiple quotes, but omg this is to funny. I say we do an arena put Rekhan in the middle,(or Dev of choice), and they take on the community one at a time. Duel style and see which Dev lastes the longest or drops the most noobs. LOL oohh man tears, stomach cramps, need air

That wouldn't be fair to you or the rest of the devs. I'd win by a landslide. :p

onesoul1982

06-26-2009, 08:52 PM

That wouldn't be fair to you or the rest of the devs. I'd win by a landslide. :p

LoL

Gotta love Devs getting involved with the community

something MxO(Matrix ONline) DEVS could learn from

USS_Parallax

06-26-2009, 09:46 PM

More like STO vs. Zelda combat. Everyone knows this will be a Legend of Zelda clone.

RemyBlack

06-26-2009, 11:19 PM

That wouldn't be fair to you or the rest of the devs. I'd win by a landslide. :p

That may be but entertaing none the less. Plus I alway love to see someone put there money where there mouth is. You are eather going to see something inspiring...or an epic failure. lol Win win.:D

J.L.Picard

06-27-2009, 12:49 AM

Short answer: I like them both. They really are different enough that objectively comparing them doesn't really make sense.

Short answer part 2: Traditionally, MMO combat is most fun for me in PvP. So until I have you noobs in my sights in STO, I can't definitively say. :p

lol

I will look for you on the battlefield while under the safety of a cloak and backed by superior Klingon technology.

I like the fact that you actually BELIEVE that Kling tech is superior LOL

More like STO vs. Zelda combat. Everyone knows this will be a Legend of Zelda clone.

anyone explain this to me? I'm not sure if hes being sarcastic or not.

USS_Parallax

06-27-2009, 12:52 AM

anyone explain this to me? I'm not sure if hes being sarcastic or not.

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oleum

06-27-2009, 01:43 AM

Quote from Rekhan
You made this post Rekhan a while ago i think however, you did not mention which one you prefer. I can understand that STO is obviously in development but you seem to have a good idea as to how it will end up, from the way you said that, so which is your fav and please be honest, if your allowed.

I'm about to read the many pages of this thread but this first one has to have a response straight away.

The part I highlighted...!!!

What a question! So how would you like it answered? Rekhan could not possibly answer this in any way that would satisfy people in the community. If he says EVE then there will be complaints left and right about how can the combat be so bad that EVE is better. If he says STO then he will be accused of being a salesman for Cryptic and giving a biased opinion. I am going to go back and read the thread now, I think there was a dev response. in there somewhere. I hope he just re-stated what he said before.

Thanks for being open as you can Rekhan. I think that most people trust what you say is at face-value.

RookActual

06-27-2009, 01:48 AM

I'm about to read the many pages of this thread but this first one has to have a response straight away.

The part I highlighted...!!!

What a question! So how would you like it answered? Rekhan could not possibly answer this in any way that would satisfy people in the community. If he says EVE then there will be complaints left and right about how can the combat be so bad that EVE is better. If he says STO then he will be accused of being a salesman for Cryptic and giving a biased opinion. I am going to go back and read the thread now, I think there was a dev response. in there somewhere. I hope he just re-stated what he said before.

Thanks for being open as you can Rekhan. I think that most people trust what you say is at face-value.

The first response to the OP should have been titled "Spoiler Alert".....

oleum

06-27-2009, 02:01 AM

OK I have read it all now. Good response Rekhan. Even better from the thread is the obvious competitive side of Stormshade and Rekhan surfacing. When people start telling you how great at a game they are you klnow the game was woth the effort in gaining those skills. Its also obvious that player skill plays a significant part.

As far as the crafting/economy side goes. How about a dev question time on tuesday in IRC about Crafting/Economy in a couple of weeks. The bridge crew one has me really really interested. I promise not to interrupt this time 8f

J.L.Picard

06-27-2009, 02:19 AM

The first response to the OP should have been titled "Spoiler Alert".....

Honestly what r u doing in any of my posts still, If you CLAIM to put someone on ignore stop responding to their posts...

dgriffis

06-27-2009, 09:19 AM

That wouldn't be fair to you or the rest of the devs. I'd win by a landslide. :p

You and Rekhan both realize of course .. that you are both really n00bs. Some of us practice 8-10 hours a day.. we call it creating content and systems :)

onesoul1982

06-27-2009, 09:21 AM

You and Rekhan both realize of course .. that you are booth really n00bs. Some of us practice 8-10 hours a day.. we call it creating content and systems :)

Gozer the Gozarian would win, hands down:D

Especailly in Stay Pufft Marshmallow Man Form

erriku

06-27-2009, 11:13 AM

Someday, when your STO descendants speak of the legend of the Dread Pirate Rekhan, you'll shake your head slowly and remember the first time you lost your ship.

:D
Big words coming from a cowardly pirate human! TO ARMS!!!

Sorry but I do not know how to do multiple quotes, but omg this is to funny. I say we do an arena put Rekhan in the middle,(or Dev of choice), and they take on the community one at a time. Duel style and see which Dev lastes the longest or drops the most noobs. LOL oohh man tears, stomach cramps, need air I love this idea. It would generate hours of PVP destruction.

You and Rekhan both realize of course .. that you are both really n00bs. Some of us practice 8-10 hours a day.. we call it creating content and systems :) I'll still pwn you!

erriku

06-27-2009, 11:16 AM

lol

I like the fact that you actually BELIEVE that Kling tech is superior LOL

I hope that your multiple defeats from Klingon technology will be enough to convince you.

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............./__.(.....“~-,_..............................,:`.........../
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Most awesome thing EVER!!!

Kinjiru

06-27-2009, 11:34 AM

Gozer the Gozarian would win, hands down:D

Especailly in Stay Pufft Marshmallow Man Form

You do realize that I'm going to have to name my first ship the USS Vince Klorthos now. :)

RookActual

06-27-2009, 03:14 PM

You do realize that I'm going to have to name my first ship the USS Vince Klorthos now. :)

Why not the USS Venkman, USS Egon, USS Stantz or USS Zeddmore? Sheesh.

renderpix

06-28-2009, 03:38 AM

EvE does require a different sort of strategy ~ whether It'll compare in combat tactics (seeing it's also planned to be on one server) is yet to be seen. You really can't get an idea how EvE is in mere weeks ~

-Manta-

In Eve it takes months and there's the trap, to keep training. I played it for several years and if you get into all aspects of the game it is pretty good. And yes PvP wins depended on the best fit winning by not fighting or ambush is were tactics were.

But the point I was making is that 3D movement and all that in EVE didn't really make much of a difference. You can roll all you want but there really isn't any point to it. The 3D creates a more realistic feel but it is not necessary. EVE would be just the same with 2.5D movement and no rolling...

You can't roll just auto uprite when moving you get inverted. 3D movement does not matter at all for combat, single shield 360x360 weapons fire, that's true. But if you have played it long enough it makes a great difference. Evasion, moving around roid fields, around structures to get distance. Setting up the PvP engagement. I don't know the depth of field in STO but in Eve I always like to uncloak an attack from above while in a Marauder or Stealth, gets'em everytime :D

With 2.5D movement it would not be the same game..... at all

cocoa-jin

06-29-2009, 07:07 AM

I want to bring to everyone's attention that despite the fact that Eve has LoS and has 3D space, you guys don't want to play it.

LoS that cant be utlized through the use of positioning one's "weak" parts away from the opponent through maneuvers. Its only LoS between targets...after that LoS is basically un-utilized...so LoS is essentially non-existent in any significant capacity except if you are able to hide behind an asteroid(if that).

Its 3D space that is under utilized because of the lack luster control system, further diminshed by there being no true LoS fidelity at the ship scale, so there is no need to have much maneuver diversity because it doesnt provide any advanatge in being able to roll a weakened shield arc or damaged part of your ship awayfrom the opponent, or to maneuver to allow certain weapons with limited firing arcs to brought to bear on a target.

So EVE is less desirable, not because of its supposed use of LoS(which in any real significant capacity Im still in doubt of its presence), nor its inclusion of 3D space. its undesirable because of its woefully under-utilization of the potential of its 3D space, its limited use of LoS and its horrible restrictive maneuvering/control model which in itself is a casualty of their lack of thorough or detailed modeling of the tactical/combat/damage/weapons model as a whole.

Beaver8

06-29-2009, 07:16 AM

Dev trash talk FTW.

Kinjiru

06-29-2009, 07:35 AM

Dev trash talk FTW.

It reminds me of a scene from the Madagascar spinoff show on Nick...

/KingJulien On

"I too can be talking of the smack!"

:)

xarb

06-29-2009, 09:25 AM

I tried Eve, couldnt stand the combat system.

renderpix

06-29-2009, 06:34 PM

LoS that cant be utlized through the use of positioning one's "weak" parts away from the opponent through maneuvers. Its only LoS between targets...after that LoS is basically un-utilized...so LoS is essentially non-existent in any significant capacity except if you are able to hide behind an asteroid(if that).

Its 3D space that is under utilized because of the lack luster control system, further diminshed by there being no true LoS fidelity at the ship scale, so there is no need to have much maneuver diversity because it doesnt provide any advanatge in being able to roll a weakened shield arc or damaged part of your ship awayfrom the opponent, or to maneuver to allow certain weapons with limited firing arcs to brought to bear on a target.

So EVE is less desirable, not because of its supposed use of LoS(which in any real significant capacity Im still in doubt of its presence), nor its inclusion of 3D space. its undesirable because of its woefully under-utilization of the potential of its 3D space, its limited use of LoS and its horrible restrictive maneuvering/control model which in itself is a casualty of their lack of thorough or detailed modeling of the tactical/combat/damage/weapons model as a whole.

True Eve did not take advantage of the 3D enviroment that they have made, I could see far greater things that they could have done where tactical was concerned. Combat is more of a calculator battle depending on range and mods.

As for LoS..... lol you cannot hide behind anything. You can be targeted from the HUD and fired on while on the other side of a space station, astroid or anywhere you are in range. Being hit from the far side of something you cannot fly thru to me is a total loss. I played Eve for quite a while and there are many things that would make it a great game but the community wants it the way it is and that's the greater loss.